[LUTE] My new website

[Jarosław Lipski]

Dear All,

I have the pleasure of inviting you to my new website at: 
http://jaroslawlipski.com
Also see my new CD featuring Weiss lute partitas from the Krzeszow (Grussau) 
manuscript. It is available directly from my website, and will ship worldwide.
You can also watch me playing Weiss d-minor Gigue from the same manuscript on  
Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KeyT_JzaOk 
Enjoy!

Jaroslaw Lipski



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Jarosław Lipski]

Thanks Ron,

Yes, I agree in this matter. We can’t be sure about Burwell’s intentions.  
In general she seems to contradict herself from time to time. For example once 
she writes: „Gaultier of England is excellent, for the goodnes of his hands 
the most swift the neatest and most even that ever were.” In other place she 
comments: "English Gaultier was fit to play in a Cabarett because of his 
thundering way of playing”. One explanation could be that she had mixed 
feelings about his way of playing, the other that this must be due to the 
additional bass courses of his lute and their extra length which French masters 
rejected (since they overemphasised the bass) - Jacques played 12c lute with 
extended bass strings which might seem extraordinary for her.
I also agree that probably not all pieces composed by Gaultier in Cherbury lute 
book have to be attributed to Jacques, on the other hand just because Jacques's 
contribution in lute music at the court was huge, the chances are that 
considerable percent of them are his original compositions. And this is in line 
with what Matthew Spring writes in 
"The lute in Britain": „ It is not exaggeration to say that Jacques Gaultier 
dominated solo lute music at the Caroline court until its removal to Oxford in 
1642. He is mentioned by Herrick in several of his poems, and all subsequent 
writers on lute music in England such as Mace and the author of the Burwell 
Tutor single him out as the most influential lutenist at the English court at 
this time”. And later: „ His lute music would seem to have had considerable 
circulation in manuscript.”
Obviously I also respect your views, and probably we have to wait with final 
explanations until new convincing data is discovered.

My best regards to you and Donna 

Jaroslaw


> 
>   Thanks for your dissertation, Jaroslaw.  You provide some interesting
>   character sketches that, nevertheless, still leave the Gaultier
>   question open.
> 
>   As for the relationship of Ennemond and Jacques Gaultier, that bit was
>   mined from the quotation I provided from the unnamed tutor of Mary
>   Burwell.  Whether this anecdotal evidence is true or false, we should
>   still be more circumspect as to how we state whether the two Gaultiers
>   in question were related.  We should say that, while there is a
>   surviving contemporary anecdotal account, there exists a distinct
>   absence of evidence to indicate whether or not Ennemond and Jacques
>   Gaultier were kinsmen.  Even so, I suspect Mary Burwell's tutor was
>   speaking (writing) metaphorically, as was the custom.
> 
>   RA
> __
> 
>   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
>   of Jarosław Lipski 
>   Sent: Wednesday, February 7, 2018 8:56 PM
>   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book
> 
>   Jean-Marie,
>   This is a vast subject for a long debate. To judge a man's behaviour
>   from 17th century and predict probability of its consequences is not a
>   trivial matter. As historian Miles Fairborn says that: „impossible,
>   strange and bizarre are less so when placed in their proper context.
>   This is one of the goals of the social historian - to endeavour to see
>   the past from the native's point of view."
>   In other words if we want to asses if certain facts which may seem
>   shocking to people from 21st century would be also shocking 4 centuries
>   ago, we would have to try to understand the reality that  people lived
>   in then.
>   Firstly, most man normally wore various types of weapon. One of the
>   most commonly used swords in 17c was the rapier which had both military
>   and civilian applications. In Europe rapier was a sword that civilians
>   used to bring with them as regular attire. Gentleman wore rapiers to
>   show signs of rank. The more embellished the sword was, the richer and
>   more noble you were. It was also used for duelling. By the end of the
>   17th century it was turned into a small sword. This change began around
>   1630's, and small swords were considered fashionable to wear. Swords
>   were elegant instruments of death that were a symbol of power to anyone
>   who owned one. The gentleman that did have swords as part of their
>   daily attire, probably wanted to benefit from the elegance and power
>   that was present in the sword. Many civilians used daggers as a symbol
>   of prestige and honour. Stilettos (Italian dagger) were developed for
>   self-protection.  Some of them had blades that divide into 3 sections
>   at pus!
>h of a button. They were known as duelling daggers and were invented
>   in France. Also it wasn't uncommon for civilians to also own pistols,
>   which were used for various reasons. Apart from this, one could
>   encounter armed soldiers and guards either on streets or in taverns.
>   Another important factor were drinking habits 

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Jarosław Lipski]

Jean-Marie,

This is a vast subject for a long debate. To judge a man’s behaviour from 17th 
century and predict probability of its consequences is not a trivial matter. As 
historian Miles Fairborn says that: „impossible, strange and bizarre are less 
so when placed in their proper context. This is one of the goals of the social 
historian - to endeavour to see the past from the native’s point of view.”
In other words if we want to asses if certain facts which may seem shocking to 
people from 21st century would be also shocking 4 centuries ago, we would have 
to try to understand the reality that  people lived in then. 
Firstly, most man normally wore various types of weapon. One of the most 
commonly used swords in 17c was the rapier which had both military and civilian 
applications. In Europe rapier was a sword that civilians used to bring with 
them as regular attire. Gentleman wore rapiers to show signs of rank. The more 
embellished the sword was, the richer and more noble you were. It was also used 
for duelling. By the end of the 17th century it was turned into a small sword. 
This change began around 1630’s, and small swords were considered fashionable 
to wear. Swords were elegant instruments of death that were a symbol of power 
to anyone who owned one. The gentleman that did have swords as part of their 
daily attire, probably wanted to benefit from the elegance and power that was 
present in the sword. Many civilians used daggers as a symbol of prestige and 
honour. Stilettos (Italian dagger) were developed for self-protection.  Some of 
them had blades that divide into 3 sections at pus!
 h of a button. They were known as duelling daggers and were invented in 
France. Also it wasn’t uncommon for civilians to also own pistols, which were 
used for various reasons. Apart from this, one could encounter armed soldiers 
and guards either on streets or in taverns. 
Another important factor were drinking habits in 17th century. We don’t realise 
that most of the rivers resembled sewage. There was no filters, ecology etc. 
So, all impurities went directly to the water. In consequence people drank only 
spring water, rainwater, or alcohol. As spring and rainwater was rather 
difficult to get, people normally drank big amounts of alcohol. Mostly some 
kind of an ale, beer or wine. Stronger alcohols were used for special 
occasions. I didn’t realise how much they drank until I saw Bach’s receipt from 
an Inn were he stayed overnight. 
Another important factor is their acquaintance with death. Public executions 
were very much a spectator sport for all classes of society. Execution always 
guaranteed to draw huge crowds.
The legal system that we take for granted nowadays, did not exist yet. Usually 
your betters were your law.
So, now imagine that you enter an Inn were almost every man is armed, drunk to 
some degree, and law doesn’t protect you. If one of them have high level of 
testosterone, and big ego, a problem is imminent. There is plenty of reports 
from these times on such occasions. Some more drastic, some less. One of them 
happened in Erfurt were Bach wanted to be employed.
In Hartung, Hauser-Chronik der Stadt Erfurt we read:
„In 27 February 1635, it had happened that a citizen named Hans Rothlander, had 
taken a soldier into his house. He persuaded the town musicians, to play to him 
to amuse him, because the master was his godfather. When they were all 
tolerably drunk the soldier, who was a cornet from Jena, stretched himself on 
the bench and fell asleep. Rothlander’s wife roused him, intending to dance 
with him. He started from his sleep, crying out - What, is the enemy upon us?. 
Then he snatched up the brass candlestick, and gave the man nearest to him 3 
wounds in the head and a gash in the cheek, thus extinguishing the light. Then 
he seized his sword, and stabbing backwards, pierced another through and 
through; he clutched a musician from Schmalkalden, who was a superior player, 
and stuck him through the body so that he died twelve hours after, and was 
buried in the churchyard of the Kaufmanns-Kirche.” Actually this sad incident 
was fortunate for Bach as the master of the guild perished !
 in this scene of butchery, and Bach took his place.
This kind of things we could call accidents, but one has to remember that 
duelling was legitimate since around year 501, when King of Burgundy codified 
the duel as a judicial combat (so called Gombette law). It was seen as a tool 
to tame criminality. Duels have a long tradition especially in France, so I’ll 
stop here, but one thing is relevant to Gaultier’s story. Henri IV’s edicts of 
1602 and of Fontainebleau registered at parliament on 26th June 1609 making 
duelists guilty of the crime of lèse majesté (offence against the crown). Louis 
XIII went on this direction and tried to stop duelling altogether. The 
declarations of Louis XIII on 1 July 1611, 18 January and 4 March 1612, 1 
October 1614, 14 July 1617 and 26 June 1624, 

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book

[Jarosław Lipski]

This is a very interesting topic for a long discussion, and I am afraid not 
necessarily suitable for such a forum due to its natural constraints, but I 
will try to highlight just a few issues that may need some attention. In my 
explanations I will not try to undermine any one of existing theories, so 
please do not interpret my rhetorical questions as an attack on anyone. I am 
expressing only my views.
Firstly, old doesn’t necessarily equal to outdated in musicology or history. I 
mentioned Thurston Dart not without a reason as his article from 1957 may prove 
to be more or less correct.
So what has changed since then in our knowledge? The main argument against 
Dart’s theory comes from a discovered letter to Sir Robert Nauton dated on July 
1619 written by Lord Herbert, in which he informs Sir Robert that Jacques 
Gaultier fled to England after „ haveing killed a brave French Gentleman in a 
most base fashion” (in a duel). Also there is an information that Herbert was 
involved in negotiations with Louis XIII, who was nagging English for 
Gaultier’s extradition. There seems to be nothing unusual that he participated 
in this process as he was an ambassador and diplomat, so this type of procedure 
would pertain to his duties anyway. The only question remains what was his 
attitude towards this situation. Did he feel endangered by his association with 
Gaultier? If Jacques Gaultier was a personae non gratae in high society why was 
he so well received by the king? Why was he well paid for his post as a court 
lutenist? Why was he appointed as personal teacher (an!
 d lutenist) to Queen Henrietta Maria? But not only at royal court he was 
welcomed. Sir Robert Kiligrew who lived in the very City of London who drew in 
diverse, cultural circle that included such renown personalities as John Donne, 
Francis Bacon, Nicholas Lanier, Cornelius Jacobszoon Drebbel, Constantijn 
Huygens and many others, welcomed also Jacques Gaultier. This is how Huygens 
describes one of such a soirees during which he admired Gaultiers playing: „The 
one to continue the feast (and how!) was Gaultier. The name only should be 
enough to underline his greatness sufficiently, were it not that, in the 
opinion of the English and without objections on my part, he raised himself 
above the Gaultiers. Heavenly Gods! With what passionate hands, right and left, 
did he succeed in lifting me out of my sense again and again.”
Isn’t it strange to invite such a criminal to entertain high society which 
wouldn’t like a slightest  association with low morals? Or maybe Gaultier was 
not seen as an outcast? What we know about Jacques Gaultier is that despite a 
period of non-payment (later reimbursed) Gaultier remained in royal service for 
several years with his reputation intact. 
So, it seems that the problem was not in Jacques social status and how he was 
received in society. Wasn’t Herbert present at least once at such a soiree? He 
was very interested in music and art in general. We know that when Herbert 
returned to London he became part of a literary circle that included Ben 
Jonson, Henry Carew and John Donne. Moreover John Donne was his mother’s friend 
and his own counsellor. Donne encouraged him in his studies and love of books. 
Herbert wrote an elegy on Donne in 1631 and was his ablest disciple. He loved 
poetry and wrote several poems. Also Francis Bacon was the friend of George 
Herbert the poet, and was also known to his brother. Wouldn’t Herbert be 
invited to such a party?
Then, maybe it was Herbert’s personal problem? What was his character and how 
did he view people maybe very relevant here. Did Herbert view duel as a 
transgression? 
After reading his autobiography and his letters, two different pictures of his 
complicated personality emerge. One of a sensitive philosopher, another of a 
gallant aristocrat, individualist with a big temper. Some people complained 
that he was choleric and hasty, and these features almost led him to duels and 
other big problems. After quarrel with Lord Howard of Walden due to liberal 
drinking Herbert demanded satisfaction. The duel would have been fought had not 
the principals been arrested before they met. Another occasion for calamity 
raised at French court. M. de Luynes ( French king’s favorite) was little 
inclined to be influenced by such a galant demeanour of Lord Herbert. Very soon 
they quarrelled and Herbert demanded satisfaction again, but James I did not 
take kindly to the proposal (fortunately!!!). Is this possible then, that 
Herbert would despise Gaultier knowing his own inclinations? Now, we would have 
to dive into Herbert’s philosophy to undo this Gordian kn!
 ot.
How did he regard religion that he proclaimed? As far as we know Lord Churbury 
developed his own system of beliefs know as Deism, however what is most 
adequate here, he treated it more from a standpoint of a philosopher. Ethics do 
not enter very materially into Lord Herbert’s philosophy, and in his 

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book - Gautier Son adieu

[Jarosław Lipski]

>   You are quoting what Thurston Dart wrote in 1957. But Jean-Marie has
>   convincingly mentioned the letter which proved that lord Herbert was
>   involved in trying to get Jacques extradited back to France and
>   therefore "would not likely collect music by him". Of course, this is a
>   bit flimsy, as you could probably always distinguish between music and
>   the person in question.

Exactly, one has to distinguish between music and the person in question. I 
doubt very much if this affair would discourage Herbert to collect Jaques music 
if he thought about it highly.

> Some of those Gaultier pieces in Cherbury were
>   however published both in Besard and in Varietie, 1603 and 1610
>   respectively, and Jacques would have been only 3 and 10 years at that
>   time, so not likely by him. There is of course a possibility that some
>   of the pieces were by Ennemond and some by Jacques. Further research
>   may prove this.

As I wrote in my post Edward Herbert was collecting music during his life 
initially probably in form of sheet music which he copied later into his lute 
book, so exact attribution is very difficult. I never wrote that all the pieces 
titled Gaultier are identified. However, at least some of them seem to be 
composed by Jacques Gaultier, and this is not only mine and Thurston Dart’s 
opinion.

>   As to the amateur status of lord Herbert, you only have to listen to
>   O'Dette's CD to completely loose this presumption. Many of the pieces
>   in the manuscript, are magnificent and highly professional and require
>   a high degree of dexterity to perform.

I know Paul’s CD, but amateur doesn’t mean ignorant, or worthless. Writing 
„amateur” I meant that he played and collected music not for money, but rather 
for his personal entertainment. And this is what he wrote about himself:
„I attained also to sing my part at first sight in music, and to play on the 
lute with very little or almost no teaching…my learning of music was for this 
end that I might entertain myself at home…”

Best

JL



>   Best
>   G.
> 
>   On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 3:38 PM, JarosÅaw Lipski
>   <[1]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl> wrote:
> 
> Most probably Gauthier refers to Jacques Gaultier d'Angleterre.
> After killing his opponent in a duel Gaultier came to England in
> 1617. He was a member of King's Musick beginning with 1619 until
> 1648. Although Lord Herbert traveled both to France and Rome he
> returned to London in 1617, so he had a good opportunity to meet
> Jacques Gaultier who played there several times. In 1619 Edward
> Herbert   went back to Paris as an ambassador to the French court,
> but had to leave after he opposed marriage between Prince Charles
> and Henrietta Maria. King James in return banished him to Ireland
> were Herbert spent almost 9 years, but from 1628 he was allowed to
> return to Montgomery castle. The type of bindings in olive morocco
> was already used in France by George Drobet on a book for Marie de
> Medicis in 1611, so there are big chances that his lute book was
> bound most probably in Paris, or it was bought by him ready made
> from a bookseller on one of his trips to Paris (maybe from
> Ballards?).
> On the other hand Lord Cherbury was an amateur lute player and he
> most probably used to copy pieces to his lute book   from some loose
> sheets of paper dated probably much earlier, and which he acquired
> from renown lute players that he met. This is why we can't be sure
> about exact dates and attribution of particular pieces, but it seems
> very likely that he met Jacques Gaultier on several occasions and he
> is the most likely composer of the compositions in question.
> Best
> JL
>> WiadomoÅÄ napisana przez Alain Veylit
> <[2]al...@musickshandmade.com> w dniu 02.02.2018, o godz. 19:04:
>> 
>> 
>>   There are two possible connections between Cherbury and
> Ennemond
>>   Gautier: both were connected to the Montmorency household, and
> Cherbury
>>   was acting as English ambassador at court when Ennemond moved
> there ca.
>>   1620.   Yet Ennemond was apparently stingy when it came to
> sharing his
>>   music and the music in the Cherb MS seems more representative
> of his
>>   earlier stay in France and is consistently using the vieil ton.
> So I
>>   still think that Jacques Gautier (d'Angleterre) is the more
> likely
>>   author of the Adieu.
>>   I could not find the references to Cherbury on Peter Stueur's
> site
>>   alas... (I wonder if the Vorhandene Manuskripte table could be
> given
>>   its own page with more descriptive titles associated with the
> sources
>>   numbers...)
>>   Alain
>> 
>>   On 02/02/2018 02:55 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:
>> 
>> We do learn at all ages indeed ;-)!
>> Au passage, thank you Alain for all your hard work so useful to
> all of us !
>> Jen-Marie
>> 
>> 
> 
>> Le 2 févr. 2018 à 11:10, G. C. 

[LUTE] Re: Cherbury lute book - Gautier Son adieu

[Jarosław Lipski]

Most probably Gauthier refers to Jacques Gaultier d’Angleterre. After killing 
his opponent in a duel Gaultier came to England in 1617. He was a member of 
King’s Musick beginning with 1619 until 1648. Although Lord Herbert traveled 
both to France and Rome he returned to London in 1617, so he had a good 
opportunity to meet Jacques Gaultier who played there several times. In 1619 
Edward Herbert  went back to Paris as an ambassador to the French court, but 
had to leave after he opposed marriage between Prince Charles and Henrietta 
Maria. King James in return banished him to Ireland were Herbert spent almost 9 
years, but from 1628 he was allowed to return to Montgomery castle. The type of 
bindings in olive morocco was already used in France by George Drobet on a book 
for Marie de Medicis in 1611, so there are big chances that his lute book was 
bound most probably in Paris, or it was bought by him ready made from a 
bookseller on one of his trips to Paris (maybe from Ballards?).
On the other hand Lord Cherbury was an amateur lute player and he most probably 
used to copy pieces to his lute book  from some loose sheets of paper dated 
probably much earlier, and which he acquired from renown lute players that he 
met. This is why we can’t be sure about exact dates and attribution of 
particular pieces, but it seems very likely that he met Jacques Gaultier on 
several occasions and he is the most likely composer of the compositions in 
question.

Best

JL


> Wiadomość napisana przez Alain Veylit  w dniu 
> 02.02.2018, o godz. 19:04:
> 
> 
>   There are two possible connections between Cherbury and Ennemond
>   Gautier: both were connected to the Montmorency household, and Cherbury
>   was acting as English ambassador at court when Ennemond moved there ca.
>   1620.  Yet Ennemond was apparently stingy when it came to sharing his
>   music and the music in the Cherb MS seems more representative of his
>   earlier stay in France and is consistently using the vieil ton. So I
>   still think that Jacques Gautier (d'Angleterre) is the more likely
>   author of the Adieu.
>   I could not find the references to Cherbury on Peter Stueur's site
>   alas... (I wonder if the Vorhandene Manuskripte table could be given
>   its own page with more descriptive titles associated with the sources
>   numbers...)
>   Alain
> 
>   On 02/02/2018 02:55 AM, Jean-Marie Poirier wrote:
> 
> We do learn at all ages indeed ;-)!
> Au passage, thank you Alain for all your hard work so useful to all of us !
> Jen-Marie
> 
> 
> Le 2 févr. 2018 à 11:10, G. C. [2] a écrit :
> 
>  I was not aware of lord Herbert's Jacques Gaultier extradition letter
>  (found on Alain's site). The fact that some of the pieces have
>  concordances in both Besard (1603) and Varietie (1610), also exclude
>  Jacques.
>  By the way, Alain, you should look at the concordances by Peter Steur
>  to update those on the Fandango Cherbury page, where the ms. is not too
>  unreadable. Very nice work, thanks Alain!
>  G.
>  On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 3:25 AM, Alain Veylit
>  [3]<[1]al...@musickshandmade.com> wrote:
>  Just a couple of points of recent history: back some 10 or 15 years
>  ago, Joel Dugot from the French lute society
> 
>  --
> 
> References
> 
>  1. [4]mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   --
> 
> References
> 
>   1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY4fsnOIpCE
>   2. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com
>   3. mailto:[1]al...@musickshandmade.com
>   4. mailto:al...@musickshandmade.com
>   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

[Jarosław Lipski]

Hello Anthony,

I am fine, thank you. I haven’t heard from you for a while, but it’s nice 
to see you on our lute list again :)
Actually I meant KF strings. String ends have to be split (whittled if you 
like), otherwise they are so stiff that tying them would be very difficult. 
Also they wouldn’t form a proper knot and initial point of vibration would be 
further away from the bridge. In general this kind of problem is characteristic 
for very stiff strings. Fortunately Venices  due to their rope construction are 
much more pliable, so there is no problem with attaching them at the bridge.

Best wishes

Jaroslaw


> On 04 Feb 2017, at 00:20, Anthony Hind  wrote:
> 
> Hello Jaroslaw
> I hope things are going well with you.
> When you say of your Venice, "Yes, mine have split ends at the bridge." Do 
> you mean you have managed to separate the ends of the twine and pass them 
> separately through the bridge hole?
> This is what Charles Besnainou does with his spring twines. This results 
> probably in a lower impedance in the same way as Martin's whittled down KFs, 
> I would suppose?
> Best wishes 
> Anthony 
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone 
> 
> Le vendredi, février 3, 2017, 4:45 PM, Jarosław Lipski 
> > a écrit :
> 
> Martin,
> 
> > When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was talking 
> > only about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.
> 
> I tried both thicker and thinner Aquilla Venice ropes and even on 4th course 
> they sound brighter than plain gut IMHO. But, this discussion only shows how 
> relative our sound perception is.
> > 
> > For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use will 
> > not work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and stiff to 
> > work.  On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing larger than 
> > 1.50mm (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th course.
> > 
> 
> I am using 1.60 on 11th course and it works fine for me. But again it’s a 
> matter of taste. 
> 
> > Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them where 
> > they go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of the bridge. 
> >  If you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you will probably get 
> > problems with the strings buzzing against the top of the bridge.
> > 
> 
> Yes, mine have split ends at the bridge.
> 
> Best
> 
> Jaroslaw
> 
> 
> > Martin
> > 
> > On 03/02/2017 11:39, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
> >> Mimmo,
> >> 
> >>> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut? I have 
> >>> the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped string was 
> >>> done. Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted like as 
> >>> rope and then polished. In practice our Venices.
> >> Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They are 
> >> brighter than plain gut
> >> 
> >>> I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation:
> >> I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs have 
> >> shorter sustain, are more percussive and …slightly duller sound IMO. KFs 
> >> work well till 11th course on BQL. I don’t like them on diapasons. CDs 
> >> have stronger fundamental, longer sustain (much longer than guts) and work 
> >> very well on diapasons, however their elasticity make them work only on 
> >> instruments with higher than normal action and wide string spacing. Also 
> >> tuning is not ideal.
> >> 
> >>> Heck, guys, what to do? first or second option?
> >>> At present the second option is the winner!
> >> Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If you aim at 
> >> finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings would be better. 
> >> I am used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a little bit stiffer 
> >> string. If someone played only overwounds he/she would probably prefer 
> >> longer sustain. So the answer to your question will depend on whom 
> >> you’ll ask.
> >> All in all there is no one answer to this question, and probably you would 
> >> have to take into consideration your business strategy.
> >> Best
> >> Ciao
> >> 
> >> Jaroslaw
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >>> ciao to all
> >>> Mimmo
> >>> 
> >>> -Messaggio originale- From: Martin Shepherd
> >>> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 10:22 AM
> >>> To: Mimmo Peruffo ; Matthew Daillie
> >>> Cc: Arto Wikla ;  <>baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
> >>> 
> >>> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
> >>> 
> >>> Thanks, Mimmo.
> >>> 
> >>> I agree absolutely that there is no need to make versions of these
> >>> strings thinner than .80mm.
> >>> 
> >>> The issue of damping is perhaps the one which worries me most.  In the
> >>> case of roped strings, they sound duller than a plain gut string of the
> >>> same size, presumably because of internal friction between the 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

[Jarosław Lipski]

Martin,

> When I said roped strings were dull compared to plain gut I was talking only 
> about relatively thin strings, say .80-.90mm.

I tried both thicker and thinner Aquilla Venice ropes and even on 4th course 
they sound brighter than plain gut IMHO. But, this discussion only shows how 
relative our sound perception is.
> 
> For the KF strings, the high tensions which many people want to use will not 
> work because the thicker KF strings are really too thick and stiff to work.  
> On the 11th course of an 11c lute I would use nothing larger than 1.50mm 
> (actual diameter).  I'm using .95 for the 6th course.
> 

I am using 1.60 on 11th course and it works fine for me. But again it’s a 
matter of taste. 

> Another factor with KF strings is the importance of thinning them where they 
> go through the bridge and wrap over themselves in front of the bridge.  If 
> you don't do this, the sound will be dull and you will probably get problems 
> with the strings buzzing against the top of the bridge.
> 

Yes, mine have split ends at the bridge.

Best

Jaroslaw


> Martin
> 
> On 03/02/2017 11:39, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>> Mimmo,
>> 
>>> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut? I have 
>>> the contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped string was done. 
>>> Mine is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted like as rope and 
>>> then polished. In practice our Venices.
>> Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They are brighter 
>> than plain gut
>> 
>>> I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation:
>> I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs have 
>> shorter sustain, are more percussive and …slightly duller sound IMO. KFs 
>> work well till 11th course on BQL. I don’t like them on diapasons. CDs have 
>> stronger fundamental, longer sustain (much longer than guts) and work very 
>> well on diapasons, however their elasticity make them work only on 
>> instruments with higher than normal action and wide string spacing. Also 
>> tuning is not ideal.
>> 
>>> Heck, guys, what to do? first or second option?
>>> At present the second option is the winner!
>> Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If you aim at 
>> finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings would be better. I 
>> am used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a little bit stiffer 
>> string. If someone played only overwounds he/she would probably prefer 
>> longer sustain. So the answer to your question will depend on whom you’ll 
>> ask.
>> All in all there is no one answer to this question, and probably you would 
>> have to take into consideration your business strategy.
>> Best
>> Ciao
>> 
>> Jaroslaw
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> ciao to all
>>> Mimmo
>>> 
>>> -Messaggio originale- From: Martin Shepherd
>>> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 10:22 AM
>>> To: Mimmo Peruffo ; Matthew Daillie
>>> Cc: Arto Wikla ; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>>> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
>>> 
>>> Thanks, Mimmo.
>>> 
>>> I agree absolutely that there is no need to make versions of these
>>> strings thinner than .80mm.
>>> 
>>> The issue of damping is perhaps the one which worries me most.  In the
>>> case of roped strings, they sound duller than a plain gut string of the
>>> same size, presumably because of internal friction between the strands
>>> of the rope.  In the case of rubber strings (sorry!) what worries me is
>>> that some damping/absorption of energy is happening as the string
>>> stretches and contracts with each vibration.  The KF fluorocarbon
>>> strings, being solid and stiff, have neither of these damping effects.
>>> I can imagine that a string which was "floppy" but not especially
>>> elastic would work well.
>>> 
>>> I hope that a lower rubber content would allow the strings to slide
>>> better over the nut, which would also be a welcome characteristic.
>>> 
>>> Best to all,
>>> 
>>> Martin
>>> 
>>> On 03/02/2017 10:09, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:
>>>> Thank you very much about all these helpfull suggestions, guys.
>>>> 
>>>> actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half loaded using also 
>>>> a stiffer elastomer.  This combination is perfect fo the tonl trasiction 
>>>> betweenj pure gut/nylon/Nylgut to a wound strings, KF or CDs etc etc.
>&

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

[Jarosław Lipski]

Mimmo,

> You experience is that a roped string is duller than a plain gut? I have the 
> contrary. Maybe  it is necessary to know how the roped string was done. Mine 
> is a roped string made with two fresh 'brins' twisted like as rope and then 
> polished. In practice our Venices.

Yes, I use your Venice roped strings and can confirm this. They are brighter 
than plain gut

> I would like to buy some KF strings just to do a comparation:

I have both KFs and your CDs and compared them side to side. KFs have shorter 
sustain, are more percussive and …slightly duller sound IMO. KFs work well till 
11th course on BQL. I don’t like them on diapasons. CDs have stronger 
fundamental, longer sustain (much longer than guts) and work very well on 
diapasons, however their elasticity make them work only on instruments with 
higher than normal action and wide string spacing. Also tuning is not ideal.

> 
> Heck, guys, what to do? first or second option?
> At present the second option is the winner!

Now, the question is what is your goal in making CD strings. If you aim at 
finding a substitute for gut strings than stiffer strings would be better. I am 
used to gut basses so I like short sustain and a little bit stiffer string. If 
someone played only overwounds he/she would probably prefer longer sustain. So 
the answer to your question will depend on whom you’ll ask.
All in all there is no one answer to this question, and probably you would have 
to take into consideration your business strategy.
Best
Ciao

Jaroslaw




> ciao to all
> Mimmo
> 
> -Messaggio originale- From: Martin Shepherd
> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 10:22 AM
> To: Mimmo Peruffo ; Matthew Daillie
> Cc: Arto Wikla ; baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
> 
> Thanks, Mimmo.
> 
> I agree absolutely that there is no need to make versions of these
> strings thinner than .80mm.
> 
> The issue of damping is perhaps the one which worries me most.  In the
> case of roped strings, they sound duller than a plain gut string of the
> same size, presumably because of internal friction between the strands
> of the rope.  In the case of rubber strings (sorry!) what worries me is
> that some damping/absorption of energy is happening as the string
> stretches and contracts with each vibration.  The KF fluorocarbon
> strings, being solid and stiff, have neither of these damping effects.
> I can imagine that a string which was "floppy" but not especially
> elastic would work well.
> 
> I hope that a lower rubber content would allow the strings to slide
> better over the nut, which would also be a welcome characteristic.
> 
> Best to all,
> 
> Martin
> 
> On 03/02/2017 10:09, Mimmo Peruffo wrote:
>> Thank you very much about all these helpfull suggestions, guys.
>> 
>> actually the gauges from 80 CD till 105CD are made half loaded using also a 
>> stiffer elastomer.  This combination is perfect fo the tonl trasiction 
>> betweenj pure gut/nylon/Nylgut to a wound strings, KF or CDs etc etc.
>> I call this range of gauges simply as Meanes. they are still CD types 
>> however.
>> In practice they  are around the 5th course of renaissance & d minor Lutes.
>> I have intentionally exluded the  4th courses because make not sense at all 
>> to use a denser strings on it. The  80 CD is just done for those that are 
>> curious.
>> 
>> well, I done the very first prototypes (than cannot be perfect) and sent out 
>> to some friends to hear their opinions: of course, some of them were uneven. 
>> Despite that I had very good reports.
>> Some installed them also like octaves (!): I never realized that additional 
>> option. However,  I do not raccomend. Octaves normally can works at higher 
>> working index than a 5 th course;  so they can breack.
>> 
>> said that, I agree with you Matthew. thanks
>> 
>> Martin, a stiffer string has an higher elasticity modulus so the 
>> performances are  less good than those of an equivalent string with more 
>> elasticity. You probably reffers to the KF strings. However there are others 
>> parameters at work here, for example the inner damping effect is one of 
>> them, and it  is not related to the elasticity modulus. This explain for 
>> example why a special kind of nylon, whose density is far less than 
>> fluorocarbon sound like this one. It was a huge surprise to me!
>> 
>> I am thinking that you guys prefer  the second option. To me is even better, 
>> it help to solve some problem becausew they sometime stick on the nut slots/ 
>> grooves.
>> 
>> False strings? yes, with prototypes  can happen. when one start with  the 
>> ufficial production an extruder plant work exatly in the same even way. The 
>> first strings are the waste and then the rest are done exactly in the same 
>> way.
>> well, I am leaving italy to London so I have not time to re start; I will do 
>> some samples both for meanes and basses just to see if they actually works 
>> in the proper way
>> Be patient 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

[Jarosław Lipski]

Excellent! I am looking forward to it. Please, let us know when they are ready.
Good luck :)

Jaroslaw


> On 02 Feb 2017, at 13:03, Mimmo Peruffo <mperu...@aquilacorde.com> wrote:
> 
> Well, seeing this post I have the idea to switch to these stiffer ones. at 
> the end of the day they are closer to those loaded strings made of gut.
> I will do some samples in advance.
> Mimmo
> 
> ps: long diapason:  I have not in aim to do them for very long diapasons such 
> as chitarrrone. The diapasons are so long for plain gut, not for denser 
> strings.  I have in aim to cover the Archlutes Sellas models, whose 
> string-dipasons has the octaves paired. Octaves are always a good  indicator 
> that it is time to have a denser material than gut or similars
> 
> -----Messaggio originale- From: Jarosław Lipski
> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:08 AM
> To: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
> 
> No problem at all, they could be darker (even better!). Anyway it’s quite a 
> good idea IMHO. If some like overwounds they can always use just…ocerwounds;) 
> I really can’t see any point in imitating overwounds.
> Please let us know if you make a new stiffer batch.
> 
> JL
> 
> 
>> On 02 Feb 2017, at 10:53, Mimmo Peruffo <mperu...@aquilacorde.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Well, Tony Bailes mailed me that:
>> 
>> Writing in 1629 Francis Bacon stresses that low strings should produce a 
>> bass sound: “for we see, that in one of the lower strings of a lute, there 
>> soundeth not the sound of the treble, nor any mixt sound , but onely the 
>> sound of the base.”
>> 
>> Mimmo
>> 
>> ps: I can made them less stretchly using a different elastomer. the problem 
>> is that they became a bit darker in the sound. Any suggestion? I am ready to 
>> start with the big batch. I am a bit worry about those that like that they 
>> are in some way still close to the wound strings
>> 
>> 
>> -Messaggio originale- From: Martin Shepherd
>> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:26 AM
>> To: Mimmo ; Matthew Daillie
>> Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
>> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
>> 
>> Dear All,
>> 
>> If we're really interested in how lutes might have been strung
>> historically, I think it's important to take the historical evidence
>> (very little of it, I know) as a starting point, rather than the habits
>> of modern players using modern strings.
>> 
>> We have a lot of iconographic evidence (plus the evidence from measuring
>> bridge holes) that bass strings were rather thin - so the conclusion
>> that they were more dense than a plain gut string seems pretty well
>> inescapable.
>> 
>> Having said that, the tensions which modern players expect may be too
>> high, for several reasons.  One is that we are accustomed to wound
>> strings, which are very flexible and don't work at all well if they are
>> at too low a tension.  A related problem is that modern players tend to
>> play much further from the bridge than their historical counterparts.
>> 
>> Another issue is that we have tended to assume roughly equal tension
>> across all the strings, so we have not experimented much with a tapering
>> of tension as we go down into the bass.  One interesting aspect of the
>> iconography is that strings get progressively thicker as they go down
>> into the bass, but not as much as one would expect if the tensions were
>> equal.  To make this concrete, for a descent of an octave (maintaining
>> equal tension) the string should double in diameter, so the 6th course
>> on a 6c lute should be nearly twice the diameter of the 4th.
>> 
>> On the subject of string diameters, Mimmo estimates the thinnest string
>> which could have been made in the past as .42-.44mm. Single top strings
>> will need to be a higher tension than the individual strings of a
>> course, but even so it is more or less inevitable that the tension must
>> be tapered to some degree, otherwise bass strings (and tension) would be
>> enormous.  Mimmo has recently written that equal tension is different
>> from equal "feel", and I agree with his suggestion that (in order to
>> maintain equal feel) thinner strings should therefore be at a higher
>> tension than thicker ones.  I have done this as a matter of instinct for
>> many years - using a higher tension on the second course than on the
>> third, for example.  As an aside, I note that most of us have tended to
>> use octaves at a lower tension than the fundamentals, but the string
>> table i

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

[Jarosław Lipski]

No problem at all, they could be darker (even better!). Anyway it’s quite a 
good idea IMHO. If some like overwounds they can always use just…ocerwounds;) I 
really can’t see any point in imitating overwounds.
Please let us know if you make a new stiffer batch.

JL


> On 02 Feb 2017, at 10:53, Mimmo Peruffo  wrote:
> 
> Well, Tony Bailes mailed me that:
> 
> Writing in 1629 Francis Bacon stresses that low strings should produce a bass 
> sound: “for we see, that in one of the lower strings of a lute, there 
> soundeth not the sound of the treble, nor any mixt sound , but onely the 
> sound of the base.”
> 
> Mimmo
> 
> ps: I can made them less stretchly using a different elastomer. the problem 
> is that they became a bit darker in the sound. Any suggestion? I am ready to 
> start with the big batch. I am a bit worry about those that like that they 
> are in some way still close to the wound strings
> 
> 
> -Messaggio originale- From: Martin Shepherd
> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:26 AM
> To: Mimmo ; Matthew Daillie
> Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing
> 
> Dear All,
> 
> If we're really interested in how lutes might have been strung
> historically, I think it's important to take the historical evidence
> (very little of it, I know) as a starting point, rather than the habits
> of modern players using modern strings.
> 
> We have a lot of iconographic evidence (plus the evidence from measuring
> bridge holes) that bass strings were rather thin - so the conclusion
> that they were more dense than a plain gut string seems pretty well
> inescapable.
> 
> Having said that, the tensions which modern players expect may be too
> high, for several reasons.  One is that we are accustomed to wound
> strings, which are very flexible and don't work at all well if they are
> at too low a tension.  A related problem is that modern players tend to
> play much further from the bridge than their historical counterparts.
> 
> Another issue is that we have tended to assume roughly equal tension
> across all the strings, so we have not experimented much with a tapering
> of tension as we go down into the bass.  One interesting aspect of the
> iconography is that strings get progressively thicker as they go down
> into the bass, but not as much as one would expect if the tensions were
> equal.  To make this concrete, for a descent of an octave (maintaining
> equal tension) the string should double in diameter, so the 6th course
> on a 6c lute should be nearly twice the diameter of the 4th.
> 
> On the subject of string diameters, Mimmo estimates the thinnest string
> which could have been made in the past as .42-.44mm. Single top strings
> will need to be a higher tension than the individual strings of a
> course, but even so it is more or less inevitable that the tension must
> be tapered to some degree, otherwise bass strings (and tension) would be
> enormous.  Mimmo has recently written that equal tension is different
> from equal "feel", and I agree with his suggestion that (in order to
> maintain equal feel) thinner strings should therefore be at a higher
> tension than thicker ones.  I have done this as a matter of instinct for
> many years - using a higher tension on the second course than on the
> third, for example.  As an aside, I note that most of us have tended to
> use octaves at a lower tension than the fundamentals, but the string
> table in the Gaultier book (discovered by Andreas Schlegel), and my more
> recent experiments, suggest perhaps a more equal tension.
> 
> As far as the characteristics of the strings is concerned, there are
> some apparent contradictions in the historical evidence.  Many paintings
> give the impression that the strings were very floppy (compared to
> modern gut strings), with lengths of spare string dangling from the
> pegbox.  On the other hand, one of the tests for a good string
> recommended by Dowland is "stiffness to the finger" (assessed before
> putting the string on the lute by pressing the end of the string to see
> how bendy it is).  In terms of elasticity, Mace talks about a string
> stretching "an inch or two" in the winding up - suggesting a string much
> more elastic than almost any modern string.
> 
> Then we come to another apparent contradiction on the area of modern
> experiments.  I have found the Savarez KF strings (made from PVDF, much
> more dense then gut, so perhaps more like a "loaded" gut string as far
> as density is concerned) work very well, in spite of being very stiff
> and not very elastic.  They also work well at lower tensions than other
> types of string.  They are usually pretty true, and that helps.  The
> implication seems to be that a string which is sufficiently dense (and
> can therefore be thin) doesn't need to be very elastic in order to
> work.  I don't know how to reconcile this with the historical evidence,
> but it occurs to me that there is a 

[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Baroque Lute Stringing

[Jarosław Lipski]

Dear Mimmo,

Firstly I’d like to congratulate you for inventing a new type of bass strings, 
as those of us who would like to use plastic equivalent of gut had very little 
choice until now. Your CD strings sound nice with quite solid fundamental. The 
only problem that I found disturbing is their elasticity. I choose gauges using 
your advice, but they still tend to buzz against adjacent strings. I tried them 
on several lutes and only on those that have wide spacing I was able to play 
cleanly. In this case maybe your idea of using a stiffer plastic blend could be 
a good one. I can’t speak for everyone, but for me some loss of brightness 
wouldn’t matter at all.
Just my two cents ;)
Good luck and all the best!

Jaroslaw


> On 02 Feb 2017, at 07:20, Mimmo  wrote:
> Yes, there is no problem to switch to a more stiffer plastic blend. The 
> problem is that we lost a bit of brightness. Is it a good idea ? I do not 
> know, people has  the wound strings sound in comparation.
> Take care 
> Mimmo Peruffo 
> 
>> Il giorno 01 feb 2017, alle ore 23:34, Matthew Daillie 
>>  ha scritto:
>> 
>> Of the main copper-wound strings available, the fullest sounding and 
>> brightest are the Kürschner followed by the Savarez, then the Aquila Ds and 
>> lastly the Aquila DEs, which are pretty dull (and are no longer being made 
>> although several retailers still have quite large stocks available).
>> 
>> As far as I am concerned the jury is still out on the Aquila loaded nylgut. 
>> Many of us have high hopes but there are production problems (there has only 
>> been one batch so far and many diameters are unavailable) and some strings 
>> can have considerably sideways amplitude when plucked (even causing them to 
>> catch neighbouring strings!) as well as intonation issues (but that is also 
>> true of a lot of wound strings).
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Matthew
>> 
>>> On 01/02/2017 22:25, David Rastall wrote:
>>> It seems I am back playing Baroque lute once again, after rather a long 
>>> hiatus.  It’s been long enough that I have forgotten some of the points of 
>>> conventional wisdom concerning stringing.  I’m playing an 11c lute 
>>> currently strung with silver-wound basses and Pyramid nylon mids and 
>>> trebles.  I’m not so much bothered by the sustain of the nylon strings, but 
>>> if you folks can refresh my memory:  what is the best choice of basses to 
>>> get a sustain which is not downright thunky or chunky, but has shorter 
>>> sustain than the silver-wounds?
>>> 
>>> David R
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

> On 12 Oct 2016, at 01:00, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
> Yes, where will it end?  I'll end my commentary by clearing up a few points.  
> I don't believe I even mentioned the term historically-informed performance 
> in my discussion.  HIP is not necessarily a hard and fast objective measure 
> because whenever the term is mentioned, you must ask the question, 
> "...according to whom?"  
> 

Here is a quotation from your original post which triggered this discussion:

Hmm...Historically-informed must have taken on a different meaning
  while I wasn't paying attention.  I should think Luca Pianca and his
  Italian compatriots might have a bit more of a secure connection with
  Vivaldi's music than the American's you name.  O'Dette recorded this
  music with a silly little chirpy mandolino playing with a rather stiff
  sounding band.  McFarlane's interpretation is vibrant and lovely but
  what we hear in this video with Luca Pianca has everything to do with a
  microphone placement that allows the lute to be heard above the rest of
  the band, as is certainly the case in the other recordings mentioned.
  As far as I can tell, single stringing was sometimes used by the old
  ones but Luca Pianca's hand position is definitely
  historically-accurate for Vivaldi's era.  The under thumb approach
  ceased to exist with the advent of many additional basses, circa 1600,
  and those who use that hand position in baroque music today are
  not using an historically-informed approach.  So unless
  historically-informed now has something to do with microphone
  placement, I think the video example is compelling and musical.



> Speedy O'Dette's use of a mandolino is a serious stretch of imagination.  I 
> happen to know McFarlane has pickups installed in his lutes.  Diego C's 
> performance was very nice but he did use some unhistorical variation 
> techniques in his decorated repeats, plus added uncommonly long pauses at the 
> ends of some phrases, plus the unhistorical mega-band.  Luca's performance 
> incorporated transposition and a single-strung archlute but I can tell you 
> without hesitation that historical theorbos were NOT single-strung either. 

See Howard’s comment

> He also used a floating hand position with thumb out.  So does Nigel North.  
> He also used nails.  So did Piccinini, and so does Stephen Stubbs. 
> 

I can’t see anything wrong with a floating hand position. Finger marks on 
original old lutes show that it was used quite often. Nigel doesn’t use 
nails, and this is why his tone is so beautiful.


> I am sorry to say that the guitar-lute controversy lives on whether people 
> would like to admit it or no.


There is no guitar-lute controversy. There is only a style problem which some 
consciously ignore.


>   I don't happen to carry that baggage, but I do take care to inform myself. 

So do I and quite a lot of us

> Taste is indeed subjective but if the idea of HIP is popped out of its ugly 
> socket, it must be applied evenly to all involved in comparison.
> 

No problem, the only thing is that it’s not a very best idea to construct a 
theory on a precedent. And I say again, I don’t want to judge someone’s 
performance, my only concern is that people use HIP term with some care.

JL

> 
> 
> 
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf of 
> Jarosław Lipski 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2016 7:28 PM
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto
>  
> My, my…were will it all end? ;)
> The discussion diverged from a simple question to a very complicated topic, 
> and I won’t go into details as this is not the best place for this kind of 
> discussion, and so many books were written about it, however I just would 
> like to point out some problems in this train of thought. Before doing this I 
> have to stress again that we are not talking about assessing someone’s 
> performance. There aren’t in fact 2 camps - inherently musical 
> interpretation versus historically accurate one. One may, or may not like 
> Luca’s performance. This is personal and irrelevant. This is much broader. 
> Firstly there is nothing amusing in talking about authenticity providing that 
> it is understood properly. Authentic does not mean identical to what old ones 
> did. On the other hand I can sense here a lute player-syndrome. When a 
> cellist begins training as a gamba player in a music school he/she is taught 
> how to bow and phrase in accordance with a present knowledge of a given style 
> (be it Rena!
 is!
>  sance or Baroque). Then, providing that education is of high quality a style 
> becomes somehow ones second nature (hopefully). Have you ever heard a well 
> educated gamba player that would use a modern bow, modern or romantic 
> phraising claiming he/she is HIP? I haven’t. And this is due to the fact 
> that lute history is a little bit more complicated than gamba’s, and not 

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

My, my…were will it all end? ;)
The discussion diverged from a simple question to a very complicated topic, and 
I won’t go into details as this is not the best place for this kind of 
discussion, and so many books were written about it, however I just would like 
to point out some problems in this train of thought. Before doing this I have 
to stress again that we are not talking about assessing someone’s 
performance. There aren’t in fact 2 camps - inherently musical interpretation 
versus historically accurate one. One may, or may not like Luca’s 
performance. This is personal and irrelevant. This is much broader. Firstly 
there is nothing amusing in talking about authenticity providing that it is 
understood properly. Authentic does not mean identical to what old ones did. On 
the other hand I can sense here a lute player-syndrome. When a cellist begins 
training as a gamba player in a music school he/she is taught how to bow and 
phrase in accordance with a present knowledge of a given style (be it Renais!
 sance or Baroque). Then, providing that education is of high quality a style 
becomes somehow ones second nature (hopefully). Have you ever heard a well 
educated gamba player that would use a modern bow, modern or romantic phraising 
claiming he/she is HIP? I haven’t. And this is due to the fact that lute 
history is a little bit more complicated than gamba’s, and not everything is 
absolutely clear untill the present day, and musicologists can not agree on 
various important details. Some use this  as an excuse for unrestricted 
interpretations. And so far I wouldn’t object. The only problem I have is to 
accept the situation when someone plays  or interprets the way which is not in 
line with widespread knowledge and claims being HIP. “I” should stand for 
INFORMED not IGNORED. So if one doesn’t insist on using this magic label I 
feel happy and can listen solely to musical performance even if it’s a 
Vivaldi's amplified ukulele concerto accompanied by a symphonic orch!
 estra dressed in space outfits ;) If performance is convincing!
 …fantastic! But shouldn’t we use HIP label a little bit more carefully? It 
means “in accordance with a present knowledge”, nothing more, nothing less. 
You do not have to live without all modern conveniences in order to be HIP. You 
cannot enter the same river twice as they say, so don’t even try, but you can 
play in accordance to the available knowledge musically, and give phenomenal 
performances,  which I wish us all :)
JL



> On 11 Oct 2016, at 14:04, Ron Andrico  wrote:
> 
> As a musician who did NOT come to the lute via classical guitar, I am 
> alternately amused and discouraged that the argument of guitar technique 
> versus an approved "authentic" lute technique is still an issue.  This 
> argument is an unfortunate artifact of the late 20th lute fad, and those who 
> are still banging away on this issue are overlooking information in the 
> historical sources.
> 
> For the record, I do not play single-strung lutes, and I understand from 
> reading historical source material that single-strung theorbos were just as 
> rare as single-strung archlutes.  But they are an accepted modern compromise. 
>  Likewise, I do not use nails, but Alessandro Piccinini and other historical 
> figures did. 
> 
> The truth is that there were and are many ways to approach historical music.  
> Until we learn to live without all modern conveniences - electronic tuners, 
> photocopied or digital scores, electric lights, indoor plumbing - the idea 
> that we can today decide on narrow parameters that describe historical 
> performance is a rather ludicrous exercise in fantasy.  
> 
> I have increasingly moved toward an attempt to perform only in 
> appropriate-sized spaces and I tend to put an enormous amount of effort in 
> producing historically integrated programs using the proper instruments.  
> Taste is a subjective and individual phenomenon but some of us have traversed 
> beyond the old guitar versus lute argument and have come to listen with an 
> open mind and judge a performance based upon its musicality.
> 
> RA
> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf of 
> Jarosław Lipski 
> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2016 8:47 AM
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto
>  
> Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca’s 
> performance was very successful. On the other hand one may ask questions 
> like: why someone plays single strung archlute if there is little evidence 
> for this type of instrument, why someone uses fingernails if the evidence 
> speaks against using them, and why someone uses amplification (Noble prize 
> for someone who’ll find any evidence for this :)) And if all of this is 
> used simultaneously, then one may assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because 
> it is much more guitar-like, and 

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

Very nicely played Diego, with taste. I like your version. My congratulations ;)
JL


> On 11 Oct 2016, at 09:10, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:
> 
> Here's my version:
> 
> https://youtu.be/dkPp4pDWGQI
> 
> I used an 'ordinary' archlute. In my opinion there are no problems about 
> single or double strings, but mainly about good taste and esthetic.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

…so now you’re talking ;) It’s all about mixing aesthetics - old and modern. 
Why then do you insist on calling it HIP? 
I played this concerto on several occasions on various historical double strung 
instruments and we never felt any problems with a proper balance between an 
ensemble and a lute. It depends on attitude of all instrumentalists in a group.
JL


> On 11 Oct 2016, at 12:06, Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> there are plenty of reasons to use a single-strung archlute, the most obvious 
> of these are the volume, precision and speed that are required by the
> standards of 21st century HIP orchestral playing.
> RT
> 
> 
> On 10/11/2016 4:48 AM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>> Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca’s 
>> performance was very successful. On the other hand one may ask questions 
>> like: why someone plays single strung archlute if there is little evidence 
>> for this type of instrument, why someone uses fingernails if the evidence 
>> speaks against using them, and why someone uses amplification (Noble prize 
>> for someone who’ll find any evidence for this :)) And if all of this is used 
>> simultaneously, then one may assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because it 
>> is much more guitar-like, and most of lute players started their musical 
>> education as guitarists. Another problem is the fear of not being heard by 
>> an audience especially when playing in a group .
>> Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out that there are 
>> 2 ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone who has no experience in 
>> early music may feel a little bit confused.
>> Best
>> JL
>>> On 11 Oct 2016, at 01:37, Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Not really. There are a lot of factors in LF manufacture that are absent is 
>>> this.
>>> 
>>> Many people play single-strung archlutes with nails, some without. Stephen 
>>> Stubbs with, Konrad Junghaenel and Konstantin Bozhinov without.
>>> 
>>> RT
>>> 
>>> On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>>>> Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another version 
>>>> of RV93 played by Luca here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 
>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog>
>>>> The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for this 
>>>> type of archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly noticed. Luca 
>>>> uses fingernails, so this is another factor that influences the overall 
>>>> sound (not only mics).
>>>> JL
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> on a good authority of RT.
>>>>> Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
>>>>> RT
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>>>>>> Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
>>>>>> JL
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc 
>>>>>>> Breton.
>>>>>>> RT
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>>>>>>>> The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but 
>>>>>>>> a liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, 
>>>>>>>> Eric Bellocq and many others use it, however I would be far from 
>>>>>>>> saying that this is a historical instrument - see here 
>>>>>>>> http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
>>>>>>>> <http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html> It’s easier to play and 
>>>>>>>> was specially created with guitarists in mind.
>>>>>>>> Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having 
>>>>>>>> said that, his performance from musical point of view was successful, 
>>>>>>>> and I am glad to see people talking about music on this list :)
>>>>>>>> Best
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 10 Oct 2016

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

> On 11 Oct 2016, at 01:37, Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Not really. There are a lot of factors in LF manufacture that are absent is 
> this.
> 
> Many people play single-strung archlutes with nails, some without. Stephen 
> Stubbs with, Konrad Junghaenel and Konstantin Bozhinov without.
> 
> RT
> 

Sure, I am not criticising anyone. On the contrary, I said Luca’s performance 
was very successful. On the other hand one may ask questions like: why someone 
plays single strung archlute if there is little evidence for this type of 
instrument, why someone uses fingernails if the evidence speaks against using 
them, and why someone uses amplification (Noble prize for someone who’ll find 
any evidence for this :)) And if all of this is used simultaneously, then one 
may assume it is not coincidental. Why? Because it is much more guitar-like, 
and most of lute players started their musical education as guitarists. Another 
problem is the fear of not being heard by an audience especially when playing 
in a group . 
Again, I am not criticising, however it should be pointed out that there are 2 
ways of looking at authenticity IMHO, and someone who has no experience in 
early music may feel a little bit confused.
Best
JL


> On 10/10/2016 5:33 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>> Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another version 
>> of RV93 played by Luca here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog>
>> The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for this type 
>> of archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly noticed. Luca uses 
>> fingernails, so this is another factor that influences the overall sound 
>> (not only mics).
>> JL
>> 
>> 
>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> on a good authority of RT.
>>> Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
>>> RT
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>>>> Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
>>>> JL
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc 
>>>>> Breton.
>>>>> RT
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>>>>>> The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a 
>>>>>> liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric 
>>>>>> Bellocq and many others use it, however I would be far from saying that 
>>>>>> this is a historical instrument - see here 
>>>>>> http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
>>>>>> <http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html> It’s easier to play and 
>>>>>> was specially created with guitarists in mind.
>>>>>> Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said 
>>>>>> that, his performance from musical point of view was successful, and I 
>>>>>> am glad to see people talking about music on this list :)
>>>>>> Best
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner <howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi <tio...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. 
>>>>>>>> in D.
>>>>>>>> It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the 
>>>>>>>> violins.
>>>>>>> Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino 
>>>>>>> Armonico plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on 
>>>>>>> the Youtube video we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to 
>>>>>>> avoid detection by copyright bots.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, 
>>>>>>> sounding in D at A 415:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this 
>>>>>>> one.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>>>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>>>> --
>>>> 
>> 
>> --
> 

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

Name it as you like, for me it’s a Liuto forte. There is another version of 
RV93 played by Luca here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB101T_sVog 
 
The whole instrument is single strung again, and the evidence for this type of 
archlute stringing is very scarce as Howard rightly noticed. Luca uses 
fingernails, so this is another factor that influences the overall sound (not 
only mics).
JL


> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:28, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
> 
> on a good authority of RT.
> Luca has at least 2 of these, one with a much longer extension.
> RT
> 
> 
> On 10/10/2016 4:16 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>> Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
>> JL
>> 
>> 
>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky  wrote:
>>> 
>>> It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc 
>>> Breton.
>>> RT
>>> 
>>> On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
 The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a 
 liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric 
 Bellocq and many others use it, however I would be far from saying that 
 this is a historical instrument - see here 
 http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
  It’s easier to play and was 
 specially created with guitarists in mind.
 Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said 
 that, his performance from musical point of view was successful, and I am 
 glad to see people talking about music on this list :)
 Best
 
 
> On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:
>> 
>> The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. in 
>> D.
>> It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the 
>> violins.
> Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino 
> Armonico plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on the 
> Youtube video we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to avoid 
> detection by copyright bots.
> 
> Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, 
> sounding in D at A 415:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM
> 
> Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
>> 
>> 
> 


--

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

Really? Is there any evidence to support this theory?
JL


> On 10 Oct 2016, at 22:15, Roman Turovsky <r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> It is certainly NOT a liuto-forte, but a single-strung archlute by Luc Breton.
> RT
> 
> On 10/10/2016 2:06 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
>> The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a 
>> liuto forte. Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric 
>> Bellocq and many others use it, however I would be far from saying that this 
>> is a historical instrument - see here http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
>> <http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html> It’s easier to play and was 
>> specially created with guitarists in mind.
>> Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said that, 
>> his performance from musical point of view was successful, and I am glad to 
>> see people talking about music on this list :)
>> Best
>> 
>> 
>>> On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner <howardpos...@ca.rr.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi <tio...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. in D.
>>>> It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the violins.
>>> 
>>> Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino Armonico 
>>> plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on the Youtube video 
>>> we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to avoid detection by 
>>> copyright bots.
>>> 
>>> Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, sounding 
>>> in D at A 415:
>>> 
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM
>>> 
>>> Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>> 
>> --
> 

[LUTE] Re: Vivaldi lute concerto

[Jarosław Lipski]

The instrument in question is not an archlute or liuto attiorbato, but a liuto 
forte. Some lute players like Luca Pianca, Luciano Contini, Eric Bellocq and 
many others use it, however I would be far from saying that this is a 
historical instrument - see here http://liuto-forte.com/ueb_00_en.html 
 It’s easier to play and was specially 
created with guitarists in mind.
Also Lucas fingering in Vivaldi isn’t really Baroque. Having said that, his 
performance from musical point of view was successful, and I am glad to see 
people talking about music on this list :)
Best


> On 10 Oct 2016, at 18:23, howard posner  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Oct 10, 2016, at 8:33 AM, Diego Cantalupi  wrote:
>> 
>> The main problem to me, is that the concerto is played in C, and not. in D.
>> It's easier on a G archlute, but sounds to me very strange for the violins.
> 
> 
> Luca plays an archlute/liuto attiorbato in A.  I believe Giardino Armonico 
> plays at A 415.  I’m guessing the pitch is lowered on the Youtube video 
> we’re talking about.  This is commonly done to avoid detection by copyright 
> bots.
> 
> Here’s a recording of Giardino and Luca doing the same concerto, sounding 
> in D at A 415:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kJwhbZcAM
> 
> Of course, it’s possible that the sound is adjusted up on this one.
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

[LUTE] Re: string tension

[Jarosław Lipski]

+1!
Another factor is old strings elasticity. It was discussed many times before, 
but non of the arguments seem to be conclusive.
Were old strings so elastic that tying them in bundles did not affect gut 
structure? I don’t know.
Anyway this is what Aquilla site says:
n 16th and 17th Century iconographical sources, the strings on musical 
instruments are depicted as smooth, rather curly, and in the tract coming out 
of the peg box they are often bundled up like they were made of soft cord. This 
suggests that the strings were extremely elastic, which would obviously affect 
their acoustical performance. On the contrary, modem gut strings, because of 
their stiffness, can only be made up in circular coils, lest they be damaged. “

Best

Jaroslaw


 On 17 May 2015, at 20:34, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote:
 
   No, it doesn't - that's part of the myth.
   This has interesting implications for our usual thinking about string
   tensions in general - I think we are still using tensions somewhat
   higher than our 16th/17th century forebears, and it doesn't always lead
   to a better result:
   When it comes to music of c.1600 and later, one obvious reason is that
   we tend to play over the rose rather than close to the bridge, and
   therefore require much higher tensions to get a suitable feel to the
   strings.
   Another factor (which leads to a further error in the same direction)
   is our use of overspun strings, which are so flexible that they require
   higher tensions in order to give a feel which we can cope with.  The
   worst case of this is using overspun strings on lutes with extended
   basses (theorboes, archlutes, swan-neck lutes) where the problems of
   using an overspun string become really acute.
   The old guys had none of these problems, of course.
   M
 
   On 17/05/2015 16:43, Ed Durbrow wrote:
 
   On May 12, 2015, at 7:24 PM, Martin Shepherd [1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk
   wrote:
 
  the key to which, by the way, is to use relatively high tension for
 the octave string (about the same as the lower octave) rather than
 the lower tension which remains common in modern times.
 
   Why is this? Doesn't higher tension result in a louder tone?
 
   Ed Durbrow
   Saitama, Japan
   [2]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
   [3]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
   [4]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
 __
 
   [5]Avast logo
 
   This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
   [6]www.avast.com
 
   --
 
 References
 
   1. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk
   2. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
   3. https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
   4. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
   5. http://www.avast.com/
   6. http://www.avast.com/
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: green lute like instrument

[Jarosław Lipski]

and perfect Baroque RH position (could be slightly closer to the bridge though) 
;)

JL


 Wiadomość napisana przez Edward Chrysogonus Yong edward.y...@gmail.com w 
 dniu 4 mar 2015, o godz. 03:58:
 
 And clearly of monoxyle construction!
 
 
 
 
 τούτο ηλεκτρονικόν ταχυδρομείον εκ είΦωνου εμεύ επέμφθη.
 Hæ litteræ electronicæ ab iPhono missæ sunt.
 此電子郵件發送于自吾iPhone。
 This e-mail was sent from my iPhone.
 
 On 4 Mar 2015, at 4:53 am, David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Frog Galliard.
  On Tuesday, March 3, 2015, John Mardinly [1]john.mardi...@asu.edu
  wrote:
 
Fan bracing as well!
A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
Principal Materials Nanoanalysis Engineer
EMail: john.mardi...@asu.edu
Cell: 408-921-3253 (does not work in TEM labs)
Titan Lab: 480-727-5651
NION UltraSTEM Lab: 480-727-5652
JEOL ARM 200 Lab: 480-727-5653
2010F Lab: 480-727-5654
Office: 480-965-7946
John Cowley Center for HREM, LE-CSSS
B134B Bateman Physical Sciences Building
Arizona State University
PO BoxA 871704
Tempe, AZ 85287-1704
-Original Message-
From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
[mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Dan Winheld
Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2015 10:09 AM
To: Ed Durbrow; lute list
Subject: [LUTE] Re: green lute like instrument
Green thumb out!
On 3/3/2015 12:52 AM, Ed Durbrow wrote:
[4]http://www.boredpanda.com/dragon-lizard-playing-leaf-guitar-adity
a-per
 mana-indonesia/
 
 Ed Durbrow
 Saitama, Japan
 [5]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
 [6]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
 [7]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
 
 
 
 
 
 --
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
  --
 
  ***
  David van Ooijen
  [9]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
  [10]www.davidvanooijen.nl
  ***
 
  --
 
 References
 
  1. mailto:john.mardi...@asu.edu
  2. javascript:;
  3. javascript:;
  4. http://www.boredpanda.com/dragon-lizard-playing-leaf-guitar-aditya-per
  5. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
  6. https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
  7. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
  8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  9. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
 10. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: Written by Mrs. Bach

[Jarosław Lipski]

exactly 13 children in 19 years 1723 -1742. As for mistakes,  they can be found 
in many old manuscripts and this fact doesn’t prove anything at all.

JL




 Wiadomość napisana przez John Mardinly john.mardi...@asu.edu w dniu 1 mar 
 2015, o godz. 22:24:
 
 I thought she had 13 sons...
 
 Sent from my iPhone.
 John Mardinly
 408 921 3253
 
 On Mar 1, 2015, at 12:09 PM, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote:
 
 On Mar 1, 2015, at 9:32 AM, Rainer rads.bera_g...@t-online.de wrote:
 
 Has any lute-netter in Germany or Switzerland seen Written by Mrs. Bach 
 on 3SAT yesterday evening?
 
 A certain Martins Jarvis claims that Anna Magdalena composed some of Bach's 
 finest works. Very funny…
 
 That would be Martin Jarvis, not the British actor, but a professor at 
 Charles Darwin University (or Chuck D U, as the rappers call it) in 
 Australia.  
 
 This has come up before on this list.  Anna Magdalena, Bach’s second wife, 
 was his copyist.  Don’t ask me where she found the time, but I suppose when 
 you’re constantly dealing with a house full of children and you’re pregnant 
 12 times in 25 years (that’s nine years of pregnancy), you need a hobby you 
 can do sitting down.  
 
 The Jarvis theory is that her copy of the cello suites shows the sort of 
 errors and whatnot that are made when composing rather than copying.  I’m 
 not kidding.  (It's rather like my own theory that Beethoven was a 
 talentless hack, and the greatest composer in history was the typesetter who 
 had to decipher his illegible manuscripts; the difference is that I’ve never 
 gone pubic with it.  Oops…) Cellist Steven Isserlis discusses (well, disses) 
 the “theory” (Jarvis’s, not mine) here:
 
 http://www.theguardian.com/music/musicblog/2014/oct/29/why-bach-wife-cannot-take-credit-for-his-cello-masterwork
 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 

[LUTE] Re: preface Piccinini in English?

[Jarosław Lipski]

Hi David,

I have a French version in pdf. Do let me know if you'd like  a copy.

All the best

Jaroslaw


Wiadomość napisana przez David van Ooijen w dniu 16 gru 2014, o godz. 08:52:

   Dear collected wisdom
   Can someone point me to an English (or German, French or, why not?,
   Dutch) translation of Piccinini's fmous preface. Any hints much
   appreciated.
   David
   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***
 
   --
 
 References
 
   1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE] Re: preface Piccinini in English?

[Jarosław Lipski]

Dear Dennis,

No problem at all. I'll send you a copy in a minute.
Have a nice day

Jaroslaw

Wiadomość napisana przez dc w dniu 16 gru 2014, o godz. 10:00:

 Dear Jaroslaw,
 
 I'd appreciate very much also the French version.
 
 With thanks in advance, and all best wishes from France.
 
 Dennis
 
 Le 16/12/2014 09:30, Jarosław Lipski écrit :
 Hi David,
 
 I have a French version in pdf. Do let me know if you'd like  a copy.
 
 All the best
 
 Jaroslaw
 
 
 Wiadomość napisana przez David van Ooijen w dniu 16 gru 2014, o godz. 08:52:
 
   Dear collected wisdom
   Can someone point me to an English (or German, French or, why not?,
   Dutch) translation of Piccinini's fmous preface. Any hints much
   appreciated.
   David
   ***
   David van Ooijen
   [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
   ***
 
   --
 
 References
 
   1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
   2. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: Cantio Sarmatoruthenica 140

[Jarosław Lipski]

and now, it's beautiful……….and well played :-)
Thanks Roman!
Vs'oho khoroshoho
JL



Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 31 mar 2014, o godz. 15:53:

 http://torban.org/radio/stuart/stuart444jck.mp3
 RT
 
 
 On 3/29/2014 5:26 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
 Beautifull!
 My best wishes Roman
 Jaroslaw
 
 
 
 Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 mar 2014, o godz. 21:32:
 
   [1]http://torban.org/sarmatoruthenicae/audio/444.mp3
   [2]http://torban.org/sarmatoruthenicae/images/444.pdf
   an Ukro-Canadian immigrant tune which completes
   the Sarmatoruthenian cycle...
   Enjoy!
   Amities,
   RT
   --
 
 References
 
   1. http://torban.org/sarmatoruthenicae/audio/444.mp3
   2. 
 http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Ftorban.org%2Fsarmatoruthenicae%2Fimages%2F444.pdfhJQHu1HMos=1
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: Cantio Sarmatoruthenica 140

[Jarosław Lipski]

Beautifull!
My best wishes Roman
Jaroslaw



Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 mar 2014, o godz. 21:32:

   [1]http://torban.org/sarmatoruthenicae/audio/444.mp3
   [2]http://torban.org/sarmatoruthenicae/images/444.pdf
   an Ukro-Canadian immigrant tune which completes
   the Sarmatoruthenian cycle...
   Enjoy!
   Amities,
   RT
   --
 
 References
 
   1. http://torban.org/sarmatoruthenicae/audio/444.mp3
   2. 
 http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Ftorban.org%2Fsarmatoruthenicae%2Fimages%2F444.pdfhJQHu1HMos=1
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed

[Jarosław Lipski]

Segovia could have been polite and gentle providing that a student followed his 
remarks, fingerings etc. This is nothing extraordinary in music, and there are 
similar reported cases from the past centuries . Some big Maestros were known 
for bullying un-subjugated pupils. (Bach was known for bullying  kids from his 
choir). This is not a good excuse obviously, especially in our modern world, 
however it gives me a thought how both performance practice and teaching 
evolved. 
BTW for those of you who doubt Segovia's competence as a guitarist there is a 
short, live video from 50's (Torroba's Sonatina in particular). 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjRLpE_TzdA

Enjoy

Jaroslaw


Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez gary w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 04:08:

 How does one go about preventing the tastes of one person from shaping the 
 tastes of an art? Van Gogh couldn't sell a painting to save his life during 
 his own time because of the prevailing taste of his era. Popularity is a 
 factor in determining an era's tastes in art. It seems unfair to fault 
 Segovia for accepting his popularity and using it to further his own taste. 
 I'm sure from Segovia's point of view in promoting his own tastes he was 
 protecting the integrity of the guitar and the music.
 
 Gary
 
 
 On 2013-12-17 13:13, Braig, Eugene wrote:
 . . . Not to mention a huge body of dedicated baroque- and
 romantic-era repertoire for guitar that was forgotten for generations
 because Segovia didn't like it and instead opted to create a body of
 repertoire through transcription.  I don't think Segovia can be blamed
 for his tremendous popularity, but there is a danger in allowing the
 tastes of one person shape the state of an art.
 Respectfully,
 Eugene
 


--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum

[Jarosław Lipski]

Hi,

 The Segovia film is nice in its own way, it was probably interesting for at 
 least a part of the audience at the time it was recorded, 
 sounds completely outdated and boring for most people today, 


It's fine with me if you don't find it interesting. It's just a personal taste 
(for many his playing is still very attractive - see comments under his 
videos).  I've sent this link only to address some posts that suggested 
Segovia's incompetence as a player. 

 and may be rediscovered in the future for some reason we would never even 
 think of.
 Is it somehow related to the lute? 
 Bream played something thought to be a lute in his own time, so he may be 
 discussed here?
 Had Segovia anything to do with the lute besides the repertoire? And if it is 
 the repertoire, may we include Andre Rieu here? He also plays some of the 
 most extended lute repertoire…

No, but I didn't start this thread. The subject says:  I just noticed we got 
so far away from the [LUTE]-forum No, but seriously, people were discussing 
Segovia's attitude towards art and teaching (see below), so this is my reply to 
that part of the thread.
Sorry if you find any problem in it.
And I'm not trying to defend Segovia (I'm wholeheartedly with Michael),  but 
I'm rather trying to find a reasons (context) of Segovia's reactions. I've seen 
this kind of attitude before, so probably this is why I'm not surprised so much.

Regards

Jaroslaw


 
 Em 18.12.2013, às 14:00, Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl escreveu:
 
 Segovia could have been polite and gentle providing that a student followed 
 his remarks, fingerings etc. This is nothing extraordinary in music, and 
 there are similar reported cases from the past centuries . Some big Maestros 
 were known for bullying un-subjugated pupils. (Bach was known for bullying  
 kids from his choir). This is not a good excuse obviously, especially in our 
 modern world, however it gives me a thought how both performance practice and 
 teaching evolved. 
 BTW for those of you who doubt Segovia's competence as a guitarist there is a 
 short, live video from 50's (Torroba's Sonatina in particular). 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjRLpE_TzdA
 
 Enjoy
 
 Jaroslaw
 
 
 Wiadomość napisana przez gary w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 04:08:
 
 How does one go about preventing the tastes of one person from shaping the 
 tastes of an art? Van Gogh couldn't sell a painting to save his life during 
 his own time because of the prevailing taste of his era. Popularity is a 
 factor in determining an era's tastes in art. It seems unfair to fault 
 Segovia for accepting his popularity and using it to further his own taste. 
 I'm sure from Segovia's point of view in promoting his own tastes he was 
 protecting the integrity of the guitar and the music.
 
 Gary
 
 
 On 2013-12-17 13:13, Braig, Eugene wrote:
 . . . Not to mention a huge body of dedicated baroque- and
 romantic-era repertoire for guitar that was forgotten for generations
 because Segovia didn't like it and instead opted to create a body of
 repertoire through transcription.  I don't think Segovia can be blamed
 for his tremendous popularity, but there is a danger in allowing the
 tastes of one person shape the state of an art.
 Respectfully,
 Eugene
 
 
 
 --
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed

[Jarosław Lipski]

It's scattered among several documents (letters etc). I don't have enough time 
to dig in all of them now, but if you are really interested I could send it to 
you in my spare time.
Another thing is what could be called bullying at times of Bach. Probably many 
behaviors that we don't accept wouldn't be recognized as not appropriate then. 
For example physical punishment was often accepted in past.


  


 
 On Dec 18, 2013, at 8:00 AM, Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote:
 
 Bach was known for bullying  kids from his choir
 
 Really?  Do you have a source for this?
 --
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum

[Jarosław Lipski]

Hi Roman,


 Segovia was not incompetent, he was simply unmusical. He wasn't alone in 
 that, among the stars of his day. Pablo Casals also comes to mind, and not a 
 few violinists.
 RT
 
 

Hmmm… we enter a very subjective territory here. Someone called unmusical for 
one may seem epitome of musicality for another. Segovia is not in my liking 
either, but many people appreciate his romantic, singing tone quality which is 
very unique nowadays.

Best

Jaroslaw


 
 
 On 12/18/2013 2:10 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
 Hi,
 
 The Segovia film is nice in its own way, it was probably interesting for at 
 least a part of the audience at the time it was recorded,
 sounds completely outdated and boring for most people today,
 
 It's fine with me if you don't find it interesting. It's just a personal 
 taste (for many his playing is still very attractive - see comments under 
 his videos).  I've sent this link only to address some posts that suggested 
 Segovia's incompetence as a player.
 
 and may be rediscovered in the future for some reason we would never even 
 think of.
 Is it somehow related to the lute?
 Bream played something thought to be a lute in his own time, so he may be 
 discussed here?
 Had Segovia anything to do with the lute besides the repertoire? And if it 
 is the repertoire, may we include Andre Rieu here? He also plays some of 
 the most extended lute repertoire…
 No, but I didn't start this thread. The subject says:  I just noticed we 
 got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum No, but seriously, people were 
 discussing Segovia's attitude towards art and teaching (see below), so this 
 is my reply to that part of the thread.
 Sorry if you find any problem in it.
 And I'm not trying to defend Segovia (I'm wholeheartedly with Michael),  but 
 I'm rather trying to find a reasons (context) of Segovia's reactions. I've 
 seen this kind of attitude before, so probably this is why I'm not surprised 
 so much.
 
 Regards
 
 Jaroslaw
 
 
 Em 18.12.2013, às 14:00, Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl escreveu:
 
 Segovia could have been polite and gentle providing that a student followed 
 his remarks, fingerings etc. This is nothing extraordinary in music, and 
 there are similar reported cases from the past centuries . Some big 
 Maestros were known for bullying un-subjugated pupils. (Bach was known for 
 bullying  kids from his choir). This is not a good excuse obviously, 
 especially in our modern world, however it gives me a thought how both 
 performance practice and teaching evolved.
 BTW for those of you who doubt Segovia's competence as a guitarist there is 
 a short, live video from 50's (Torroba's Sonatina in particular). 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjRLpE_TzdA
 
 Enjoy
 
 Jaroslaw
 
 
 Wiadomość napisana przez gary w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 04:08:
 
 How does one go about preventing the tastes of one person from shaping 
 the tastes of an art? Van Gogh couldn't sell a painting to save his life 
 during his own time because of the prevailing taste of his era. Popularity 
 is a factor in determining an era's tastes in art. It seems unfair to 
 fault Segovia for accepting his popularity and using it to further his own 
 taste. I'm sure from Segovia's point of view in promoting his own tastes 
 he was protecting the integrity of the guitar and the music.
 
 Gary
 
 
 On 2013-12-17 13:13, Braig, Eugene wrote:
 . . . Not to mention a huge body of dedicated baroque- and
 romantic-era repertoire for guitar that was forgotten for generations
 because Segovia didn't like it and instead opted to create a body of
 repertoire through transcription.  I don't think Segovia can be blamed
 for his tremendous popularity, but there is a danger in allowing the
 tastes of one person shape the state of an art.
 Respectfully,
 Eugene
 
 --
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed

[Jarosław Lipski]

Obviously I meant kids upbringing ;-)
JL



Wiadomość napisana przez r.turov...@gmail.com w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 20:47:

 One could argue that the municipal authorities bullied Rosenmüller, and 
 caused his flight to Italy (on account of his molestation of minors).
 They should have resorted to physical punishment rather than bullying.
 RT
 
 
 
 On 12/18/2013 2:24 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
 It's scattered among several documents (letters etc). I don't have enough 
 time to dig in all of them now, but if you are really interested I could 
 send it to you in my spare time.
 Another thing is what could be called bullying at times of Bach. Probably 
 many behaviors that we don't accept wouldn't be recognized as not 
 appropriate then. For example physical punishment was often accepted in past.
 
 
   
 
 On Dec 18, 2013, at 8:00 AM, Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote:
 
 Bach was known for bullying  kids from his choir
 Really?  Do you have a source for this?
 --
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 
 

[LUTE] Re: Segovia and HIP (was: Segovia, Segovia, Segovia)

[Jarosław Lipski]

Hi Bill and David,

Good points.
And yes, it reminds us of our own mortality, but I wouldn't say there's 
anything wrong in it.
I was fortunate to attend his last recital in London 1987 (South Bank - QEH as 
far as I can remember). It was a very unusual  concert. Segovia could hardly 
walk (someone supported him on his way to the chair). His guitar was brought to 
the stage afterwards and he began to play with obvious difficulty. There were 
mistakes and memory lapses, but nobody expected him to be in the same form as 
he was during his youth. The concert ended with a long standing ovation, and I 
had a deep feeling that people just wanted to pay tribute to him for what he 
was and have done to classical guitar, rather then compliment his playing 
during this particular concert. His life was full of passion and love for his 
chosen instrument and he couldn't part with it. He preferred almost to die on 
stage, and he died a couple of month later. 
There is a difficulty in accepting this, because we live in a world that 
promotes youth mainly. I don't mind if someone disagrees, but not everything is 
outdated only because it's old.
His musical output is another matter and assessment will always be subjective.

Best

Jaroslaw



 
 
   Well observed, David! He is a historical figure, though it is hard for
   those of us who heard him playing in person to get our heads around it.
   It reminds us of our own mortality.
 
   Bill
 
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
 __
 
   From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com;
   To: lutelist Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu;
   Subject: [LUTE] Segovia and HIP (was: Segovia, Segovia, Segovia)
   Sent: Wed, Dec 18, 2013 9:20:40 PM
 Forgive me for forgetting who asked about the relevance of this
   Segovia
 thread (plural), but I couldn't resist:
 In Holland we have a classical guitar (OT) player who released two
   CDs
 with Segoviana. On his latest CD he plays a period Hauser restored by
 Hauser descendants with materials from the original Hauser workshops,
 went to great length to acquire the correct, period (gut!) strings,
 tries to emulate the technique and tone of the master and naturally
   the
 programme is all Segoviana. it's all very well done and very
   beaitiful.
 It appears Segovia has acquired hip-status and is sanctified into an
 Old One.
 You laugh at this story? I don't.
 Look in the mirror and see what you/we are trying to do with 'our'
 Weiss/Dowland/Francesco and 'our' Hiebers/Burckholzers/Sellasses and
 'our' Venices/Pistoys and what-not hip paraphernalia.
 In other words: I think the relevance of Segovia to this list is
 self-evident; observe reactions from contemporaries, myth forming,
 canonisation of technique, interpretation, instruments and
   repertoire.
 Need I go on?
 David
 ***
 David van Ooijen
 [1][2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
 [2]www.davidvanooijen.nl
 ***
 --
   References
 1. mailto:[3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com
 2. [4]http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
   --
 
 References
 
   1. http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android
   2. javascript:return
   3. javascript:return
   4. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 

[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed we got so far away from the [LUTE]-forum

[Jarosław Lipski]

Wiadomość napisana przez howard posner w dniu 18 gru 2013, o godz. 23:10:

 
 On Dec 18, 2013, at 1:47 PM, Dan Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net wrote:
 
 Is it just me, or is there not something ironic about a serious minded 21st 
 century LUTE-list member finding a great 20th century musical icon (think of 
 him what one will otherwise) outdated?
 
 Not at all.  Implicit in the whole early music movement is the assumption 
 that the mainstream classical approach to early music was outdated, including 
 icons like Karajan, Stokowski, and yes, Segovia.  Their approach was an 
 early-to-mid-twentieth-century approach that became outdated when we learned 
 better.
 


Sure, but we're not talking about Segovia's early music interpretations.





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] How it's made channel - gut strings

[Jarosław Lipski]

Dear all,

I would like to draw your attention to video made by Mimmo Peruffo for Canadian 
TV channel How it's made. As Mimmo told me, he shows the old technology that 
was passed to him by some elderly string makers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embeddedv=wRQq_0VM110

Concise, informative and well done.
Hope you'll enjoy!

Best

Jaroslaw



--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - eccentric Mace

[Jarosław Lipski]

Here is the link http://www.flickr.com/photos/wfiupublicradio/4422058905/
I don't think it's to be played lefty

Best regards

JL


Wiadomość napisana przez A.J. Padilla MD w dniu 8 paź 2012, o godz. 17:52:

 The musica viva website describes the dyphone as having two necks, 180
 degrees apart. 
 Unless the fingerboards (and bowls???) were reversed front-to-back as well,
 one would have to be played lefty.
 Anybody got a picture?
 
 I just love the part about touching the dypone with the teeth - That's
 conductive hearing as opposed to air transmission.
 You can do a modern experiment on this, duplicating an old but quite
 reliable hearing phenomenon (which I use to impress my medical students).
 Take a tuning fork (128 Hz works best, but anything about that range will be
 ok), tap it to produce the sound, and touch it to the middle of the
 forehead.  
 Under normal circumstances, the sound should sound equal in both ears.
 Stick a finger in one ear to occlude the air conduction.
 The sound (of the tuning fork on your forehead) will magically become
 louder in the occluded ear.  That's conduction hearing loss, and indeed very
 responsive to sound coming through the teeth.
 Something to do with brain compensation, but what do I know, I do glands all
 day
 
 - And for the lefty lute, treat with ambidextrose
 
 Al
 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
 Of Jaroslaw Lipski
 Sent: Monday, October 08, 2012 10:08 AM
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - eccentric Mace
 
 Dear Martyn, Sam, Mathias, Bill and all,
 
 Thank you very much for your supportive words. I absolutely agree with what
 you wrote Martyn about Mace. 
 Besides it depends how one understands eccentricity. Viewing it from our
 modern world's perspective he could be called by many as a very eccentric
 man. However when trying to imagine the world he was living in and
 considering his personal situation one can reevaluate his image. Not a young
 man, who worked most of his life as a musician, loosing his hearing, who's
 existence was grossly dependent on the income from his pupils. What was he
 to do? Go to the doctor and ask for a hearing aid? No ,existing technology
 didn't know such a thing. So Mace decided to cope with the situation on his
 own. He invented an instrument that united 2 lutes in one, because this
 construction enabled the biggest resonance that could be achieved on a lute.
 Then, he invents a method of transmitting vibrations by touching the dyphone
 with his teeth. How can one call it? I would say that taking into
 consideration all the circumstances, he was very creative, ingenious, and
 had a very artistic soul. Beeth!
 oven had a similar problem. He was trying to hide the fact that he was
 deaf, and managed to play only by feeling vibration of a grand piano in his
 body.
 Now, obviously when examining historical sources one has to be careful, but
 it is not a good idea to suspect anything a person writes only because he
 looks or sounds strange to us. I don't like theoretical, artificial
 constructions that could undermine credibility of almost any source like
 this - the same day Mace went to the market in order to buy some strings ,
 he had his glasses stained by blood from the pork he was preparing for the
 dinner, therefore he could see only rotten red gut etc.
 All in all, Musick's Monument is a very valuable historical source for me
 and I will return to this reading in future with pleasure.
 
 All the best
 
 Jaroslaw
 
 
 
 WiadomoĹÄ? napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 8 paĹş 2012, o godz. 09:43:
 
 
 Dear Jaroslaw,
 
 I don't think you need be dismayed by Howard Posner's comments: he seems
 only willing to accept evidence if given under cross examination in his
 local criminal law court.
 
 For most of us this degree of scepticism is not necessary and we are
 prepared to take historical sources at face value unless and until we find
 compelling reasons to suggest otherwise - indeed, the study of early sources
 is a cornerstone of historical research. It is not really credible that Mace
 would have filled this major life's with unsubstantiated personal, and
 incorrect, opinion: even in 1676 there would have been people around to draw
 attention to any blatant  inaccuracies.
 
 In short, I think you're quite right to use Mace as a good source of
 contemporary English practice.
 
 MH
 
 --- On Sun, 7/10/12, JarosĹ,aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote:
 
 From: JarosĹ,aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of 
 the whole lute
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Sunday, 7 October, 2012, 23:52
 
 Howard,
 
 No offence I hope? I really wouldn't like to take part in an exchange of
 arguments that go far from the subjects most of the lute-listers are
 interested in. However I am forced to answer some of your arguments.
 Firstly, most of the expressions I used 

[LUTE] Re: eccentric Mace

[Jarosław Lipski]

Dear Howard,



 This sort of hyperbolic generalization is very common --Jaroslaw has done it 
 repeatedly with my comments about Mace, turning them into a statement that I 
 don't believe anything Mace said because he was eccentric.  I do the same 
 thing all the time (though I try to avoid doing it in writing) and so did 
 Mace.  
 


Then, lets examine your own words without any additions. Here are your words 
copied and pasted:

Obviously, I'm less inclined to take Mace seriously than you are.
 I'm writing about what an oddball who may have been an
inaccurate observer or someone quick to jump to odd conclusions may
have meant. A And remember, when he wrote the book he was so deaf he
had to put his teeth on a lute to hear any sound from it, so the
details of strings' A actual sounds may have been a different
memory. A If you're inclined to take everything Mace says as
practical and workable, try building his dyphone, and then try
playing it.

Now, please take any good dictionary and check every word with me. Oddball - 
a strange or eccentric person. Inaccurate observer - a person who's sense of 
observation is inadequate resulting in false view of reality, false assesments 
of situations etc. Someone quick to jump to odd conclusions - here we have 
the whole set of your favorite words, ambiguously suggesting that Mace could 
make generalizations instantly without any thought, and obviously his 
conclusions had to be odd (different from what is usual or expected; strange). 
Then you're implying that because his hearing was impaired he couldn't asses 
string quality adequately. In the end you're saying that if I dare to believe 
in what Mace wrote I should build and play his dyphone first to prove his 
book's reliability. I won't comment anymore on it. It is self explanatory. 
One thing more. I never said that I believe in every word Mace wrote. I never 
said I understand precisely what kind of red strings Mace meant and why he 
mentioned rotten strings. Possibilities are numerous. One of them could be that 
the quality of gut in 17c was much worse than now. Mace mentioned rotten 
strings in several places of his book. Just another example: There is a small 
sort of Lyons, which many use for the octaves; But I care not for them, they 
being CONSTANTLY  ROTTEN, and good for little, but to make frets of. If you 
have a difficulty with understanding why he had used the word constantly 
which seems to be illogical because nobody would buy them, I can only suggest 
that you better apply colloquial language to decipher Music's Monument (in this 
case meaning often). 
And finally it would be so nice if everyone observed netiquette. We have names, 
and it is very kind to greet one another in spite of our differences. 


Best regards

Jaroslaw


--

To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: eccentric Mace

[Jarosław Lipski]

Howard,

I'll try to forget your irony, but it is definitely better than nothing :)


 My very dear Jaroslaw; how good to hear from you.
 
 On Oct 8, 2012, at 12:41 PM, Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote:
 
 Then, lets examine your own words without any additions. 
 
 But with lots of subtractions; i.e. if you're going to parse, you should 
 parse completely, starting with the word may.  But enough; we're not in 
 such disagreement. 
 

I couldn't quote everything, because it would be too long, besides it would 
change nothing.


 I never said that I believe in every word Mace wrote. 
 
 And I never said I disbelieve every word he ever wrote.  Of course, I'm not 
 putting a lute under a bedspread with two boys in the house.
 

Very good


 I never said I understand precisely what kind of red strings Mace meant and 
 why he mentioned rotten strings. Possibilities are numerous.  
 
 Absolutely.  This all started when I suggested a few.  You're free to 
 discount them.

I'll discount nothing. However I tend to believe Mace a little bit more than 
you do.


  But I think this exchange already has many listers going instinctively for 
 the delete button, and I'll leave off.
 --

Great. Absolutely very good idea. I'm going to do the same thing. Hope that our 
time wasn't wasted and we had a chance to  think about some details of Musick's 
Monument.

All the best

JL

 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the whole lute

[Jarosław Lipski]

Dear Howard


There is also quite a lot of speculation in your answer, however I doubt very 
much if Mace could be so poetic and enigmatic in the book which was to simplify 
things. He was defending lute's position amongst instruments so he tried to 
make explanations as easy as possible. For us it's not easy because we didn't 
live at that time. IMO he talks about most common things (obviously except his 
dyphone, but in this case he wanted to show people his invention). I really 
doubt very much that he would be inclined to make generalization after 
examining just a one string and immediately wanting to share his discovery with 
the whole world. In this case the whole book would be of little value for 
anyone. But I don't thing this is the case. He clearly explained that many 
kinds of strings were commonly dyed. Then he proceeded to give his opinion on 
which ones were good, and which he found commonly faulty. This would be quite a 
normal thing to write in a handbook.
As far as your objections concerning unusual colors are concerned please have a 
look at the 12c lute's bridge detail of Bilcius painting (2nd half of the 17th 
c). It shows string colors from bright yellow, orange, till various shades of 
blue.
Obviously our arguments prove nothing (either way), we are just speculating, 
but I find it entertaining to dig in some details :-)

Best wishes

Jaroslaw



Wiadomość napisana przez howard posner w dniu 7 paź 2012, o godz. 01:22:

 On Oct 6, 2012, at 12:45 PM, Jaros“aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote:
 
 Maybe, but then how will you explain a quote from Mace p.66:
 I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish color very good; yet but 
 seldom; for that color is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay of 
 the string. There are several sorts of colored strings, very good; but the 
 best was always the clear blue; the red commonly rotten.
 As far as I understand red color is a most popular color of loaded string. 
 If this is so, how then they could be commonly rotten?
 
 There's a lot of speculation in your question.  Here's more.  
 
 Mace may have been describing minor differences in color.  
 
 He could have been describing a string as red or yellow for all sorts of 
 reasons: inherent color of the intestine, impurities in the processing, some 
 microbial or fungal contaminant, the color of Mace's spectacles or the kinds 
 of candles he used, the string maker cutting his finger while he made the 
 string and twisting his own blood into the string (I think I just created the 
 Red Violin theory of string making), Mace examining the string while the 
 sun was setting--who knows?  
 
 Obviously, I'm not inclined to regard Mace as a scientific observer; more 
 like the eccentric uncle who makes dubious sweeping pronouncements at family 
 dinners.  Maybe he got one reddish string once and didn't like it, and 
 generalized in a way that most of us do in casual conversation. 
 
 Most of the gut strings I've used could be described as yellow, and none have 
 been rotten.
 
 And what's with clear blue?
 --
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the whole lute

[Jarosław Lipski]

Wiadomość napisana przez howard posner w dniu 7 paź 2012, o godz. 20:52:

 On Oct 7, 2012, at 11:22 AM, Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote:
 
 So you see Mace as an oddball, inaccurate observer, someone quick to jump to 
 odd conclusions, old deaf man who had lost touch with reality, an idiot who 
 constructed an instrument impossible to play etc
 
 What I said was: I'm not inclined to regard Mace as a scientific observer; 
 more like the eccentric uncle who makes dubious sweeping pronouncements at 
 family dinners.
 

Well, I've quoted your own words, but maybe you had something else on mind, 
sorry…….

 
 I have read his book many times and found a lot of interesting details that 
 do not sound like an utterance of a mentally ill person. Many musicologists 
 quote Mace and as far as I know Musick's Monument is one of the most 
 important sourcebooks for studying 17c performance practice.
 It doesn't mean that every word Mace wrote is true,
 
 Sure doesn't, and lots of important sources are full of misinformation. 
 

So you have the correct information. Mace is obviously wrong. How do you know 
about it?


 but we are talking about very basic matters like colors - he wasn't blind as 
 far as I know and the fact that he had to put his teeth on a lute doesn't 
 matter here as we are not talking about what he used to hear. In fact many 
 paintings confirm what he wrote. Many types of strings in 17c were commonly 
 dyed. Red was in fact most popular color.
 
 Red is still pretty popular, but the original question was whether it 
 necessarily meant both loaded and rotten.  

Mace doesn't mention loading at all. Only dying. What I wrote initially was 
addressed to Anthony in fact. I was asking him how can it be possible that a 
loaded string is rotten. If a gut was treated with oxides of some metals like 
lead, iron, copper etc it wouldn't rot easily as far as I can understand some 
chemical processes. Therefore my assumption was that if Mace mentioned rotten 
RED strings (not reddish or something - he clearly writes about colored gut), 
they must had been dyed only and not loaded.
 --
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the whole lute

[Jarosław Lipski]

Howard,

No offence I hope? I really wouldn't like to take part in an exchange of 
arguments that go far from the subjects most of the lute-listers are interested 
in. However I am forced to answer some of your arguments.
Firstly, most of the expressions I used were exact quotations of your post. I 
only added some that were logical consequences of what you wrote, but I am 
sorry if you didn't mean it.
Secondly, Mace had built the dyphone. Please read carefully on page 203:
The only instrument in being of that kind; and but lately invented, by myself, 
and MADE WITH MY OWN HANDS, in the year 1672 Then he describes why he had 
built it and how it sounded etc.
Thirdly, having an assumption that so many people lack credibility and 
therefore one can not seriously take into consideration books from the past 
written by a man who showed some signs of eccentricity is rather not practical 
IMO as musicology doesn't equal law. We can't call witness Mace.
And finally, yes the whole discussion began from Benjamin and his observations 
on behavior of gut strings versus synthetics, but I think he explained recently 
that he was misunderstood, because he meant that synthetics are in fact more 
stable, however gut reaches certain, lets call it a state of equilibrium 
faster. I can confirm this opinion. I play both gut and synthetics. It takes 
more time for synthetics before they start to behave normally, but then, they 
do not react to changes of humidity, only temperature. The only thing that I 
would add to his post is that gut strings don't go out of tune because of high 
humidity, but because of the changes of humidity. So practically there may be a 
situation that you kept your lute 2 hours before the recital in the place where 
you are supposed to play, then you enter a stage and it happens that there came 
quite a lot of people to listen to you (obviously they all breath exhaling a 
lot of moisture), the hall is not very spacious, and!
  your very carefully prepared tuning goes to pieces. The assumption is though 
that you have a big audience, ha, ha :). Another thing that I would like to add 
is that wire wounds in fact go out of tune because they are made of 2 different 
materials which behave differently - a synthetic core and a wire. The good news 
is that its movement is very predictable, so once you get used to it, it takes 
only seconds to correct.
Hope we safely came into some conclusions.

Best

JL



Wiadomość napisana przez howard posner w dniu 7 paź 2012, o godz. 23:25:

 On Oct 7, 2012, at 12:14 PM, Jaros“aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote:
 
 So you see Mace as an oddball, inaccurate observer, someone quick to jump 
 to odd conclusions, old deaf man who had lost touch with reality, an idiot 
 who constructed an instrument impossible to play etc
 
 What I said was: I'm not inclined to regard Mace as a scientific observer; 
 more like the eccentric uncle who makes dubious sweeping pronouncements at 
 family dinners.
 
 Well, I've quoted your own words, but maybe you had something else on mind, 
 sorry∑∑.
 
 No, *I* quoted my own words, which did not include idiot, old, lost 
 touch with reality, or etc.  I didn't opine about how quickly he reached 
 his conclusions (he doesn't strike me as a man who did anything quickly).  I 
 also didn't say mentally ill.  I certainly didn't say he actually had a 
 dyphone built, notwithstanding what he wrote.
 
 I spend a lot of time professionally evaluating whether things witnesses tell 
 me are credible; many are not, for all sorts of reasons, the most common 
 being triumph of vantage point over all other considerations (just this 
 morning I read through 18 character letters written to convince me that a 
 person was honorable and honest; none of them mentioned his felony fraud 
 conviction, leaving me to wonder if the writers even knew why they were 
 writing).  
 
 We all know the world is full of ostensibly normal and sane persons who reach 
 positions of prominence and responsibility saying things that are not 
 credible; in my country they tend to get nominated for public office a lot.  
 
 Although we seem to have pivoted, as Mitt Romney might say, into a 
 discussion of how reliable a witness Mace was, this thread began when 
 Benjamin Narvey -- a person normally given to reasonable observations and 
 conclusions -- said he'd had an experience from which he concluded (or 
 re-concluded) that synthetic strings are harder to keep in tune than gut, and 
 carbon fiber are particularly difficult.  I think he's extrapolating too much 
 from too small a sample, and his experience is atypical of most experiences 
 with synthetics and gut; certainly it's different from mine.  I think a 
 musicologist of the 23rd century reading Musick's EMail Monument, a 
 collection of Narvey messages on a hard drive that survived the Great Warming 
 Catastrophe of 2089, would likely be misled on that particular point, even 
 though Benjamin is not an old deaf man who had 

[LUTE] Re: What is the point of synthetics?

[Jarosław Lipski]

No, it isn't a new problem. This is what Mattheson writes (1727) answering 
Baron in his book Ephorus, naming disadvantages of the lute:
Because of the many strings, and special strings (gut-strings) which depend 
more on stable temperature and humidity than other instruments (to stay in 
tune).
We don't know how gut strings of the past differed from modern ones, but just 
one thing shouldn't be disregarded - gut absorbs  humidity from the air, 
synthetics do not. Why synthetics go out of tune? Because of the temperature 
differences and bigger elasticity. 
From my experience I can only say that after changing a Nylgut string it takes 
quite a lot of time before it can be used for a concert, however then it stays 
in tune better than gut. But obviously it is possible to play a concert on gut 
strings providing that it is not in a very humid place (or one with changing 
air conditions).
I wouldn't mix gut with synthetics though, as each material goes different way. 
So my advice is use either synthetics or gut  depending on your wallet's size :)

Best regards

Jaroslaw




Wiadomość napisana przez Mark Probert w dniu 6 paź 2012, o godz. 04:17:

 
 
 Then, isn't there the old adage of lute players spending half their
 time tuning and the other half playing out of tune?  This is not a new
 problem, though I do believe that synthetics help.
 
 Kind regards 
 
 -- 
 mark. 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE] Re: What is the point of synthetics?

[Jarosław Lipski]

Yes, varnishing helps, but doesn't totally stop a string absorbing humidity. It 
rather protects  from wear and tear.I tried them. They sound duller, inferior 
to normal gut and are not historical strings. This is what MP writes about them 
on his website:
Gut strings are varnished in order to protect the strings from wear and tear. 
The varnishing of strings is not a historical process; the earliest samples of 
varnished strings we have found only date back to the 1920-30s. A varnished 
string has a somewhat duller sound and the attack under the bow is slightly 
more difficult and liable to whistle.
When I use gut I do it for it's beautifull sound, so the idea of something that 
has neither advantages of synthetics nor gut doesn't really suit me.

All the best

Jaroslaw


Wiadomość napisana przez Sam Chapman w dniu 6 paź 2012, o godz. 17:34:

   Well, there's gut and there's varnished gut. The latter may not have
   been used historically, but it absorbs much less humidity from the air
   and sweat from the fingers, therefore staying in tune well, maintaining
   it's tone quality and lasting longer. That said, I've not had much
   experience using varnished gut in concerts, but am now considering it
   as possibly a good compromise. It's certainly closer to plain gut in
   terms of feel and sound than any kind of synthetic string. Benjamin,
   what kind of gut do you use?
 
   best,
 
   Sam
   On 6 October 2012 12:26, Jaros^3aw Lipski [1]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
   wrote:
 
 No, it isn't a new problem. This is what Mattheson writes (1727)
 answering Baron in his book Ephorus, naming disadvantages of the
 lute:
 Because of the many strings, and special strings (gut-strings)
 which depend more on stable temperature and humidity than other
 instruments (to stay in tune).
 We don't know how gut strings of the past differed from modern ones,
 but just one thing shouldn't be disregarded - gut absorbs  humidity
 from the air, synthetics do not. Why synthetics go out of tune?
 Because of the temperature differences and bigger elasticity.
 From my experience I can only say that after changing a Nylgut
 string it takes quite a lot of time before it can be used for a
 concert, however then it stays in tune better than gut. But
 obviously it is possible to play a concert on gut strings providing
 that it is not in a very humid place (or one with changing air
 conditions).
 I wouldn't mix gut with synthetics though, as each material goes
 different way. So my advice is use either synthetics or gut
 depending on your wallet's size :)
 Best regards
 Jaroslaw
 WiadomoP:ae napisana przez Mark Probert w dniu 6 pa 1/4 2012, o
 godz. 04:17:
 
 
 
 Then, isn't there the old adage of lute players spending half their
 time tuning and the other half playing out of tune?  This is not a
   new
 problem, though I do believe that synthetics help.
 
 Kind regards
 
 --
 mark.
 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 
 [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
   --
   Sam Chapman
   Oetlingerstrasse 65
   4057 Basel
   (0041) 79 530 39 91
 
   --
 
 References
 
   1. mailto:jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 

[LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the whole lute

[Jarosław Lipski]

Sorry for splitting my message in 2. Almond oil was and is used during 
production of gut strings. Normally you get oiled strings unless you order 
otherwise. Oil slightly prevents from moisture, meaning that your string will 
live longer, however it won't stop your lute from going out of tune (at least 
not significantly). Historically almond oil was used to protect strings from  
rotting which was quite common in past. This is what Mace wrote (p.66):
As concerning the keeping of your strings, you must know, there ought to be a 
choice care taken; for they may be very good when you buy them, but spoiled in 
a quarter of an hours time, if they take any wet, or moist air. Therefore your 
best way is, to wrap them up close, either in an oiled paper, a bladder, or a 
piece of sear-cloath,[……] Which, when you have thus done, keep them in some 
close box, or cupboard; but not amongst linen, (for that gives moisture;) and 
let them be in a room where there is, or useth to be, a fire often. And when at 
any time you open them for your use, take heed they lye not too long open, nor 
in a dark window, or moist place; For moisture is the worst Enemy to your 
strings.
From this quote it can be safely deduced that gut strings were extremely 
susceptible to moisture in spite of oil treatment .  Notice that Mace says one 
shouldn't keep a box with strings open too long or they get dump. This is 
quite amazing…or the climate in England was very humid at that time, who 
knows? 
Anyway, gut strings have some weak points which synthetics do not posses, but I 
don't see any reason for hiding them. It is a natural part of recreating 
something from the past. It's like driving an old car from 1920s. You can't 
compare it to a new Mercedes but it's fun to drive a vehicle from the past with 
all its disadvantages.

Kind regards

Jaroslaw


Wiadomość napisana przez Sam Chapman w dniu 6 paź 2012, o godz. 18:03:

   Interesting. Weren't strings sometimes also treated with certain oils -
   almond oil I think? I hadn't realised that this could potentially
   protect against humidity changes.
 
   Sam
   On 6 October 2012 15:05, alexander [1]voka...@verizon.net wrote:
 
 It needs to be understood, i think, that there are clearly two
 elements in the pitch (in)stability. The string material and design
 is, of course one. But for the light and breathing, as it is, lute,
 the movement of the whole structure, most likely influences the
 tuning much, much more. So, in this case, chasing the string mole
 while disregarding the body movement monster, is not going to solve
 anything. Especially with the synthetics, - the differences observed
 here are the result of a different stretch - flexibility of the
 materials, rather then some radical reaction from the material to
 the temperature - humidity change. (Of course the wound strings,
 consisting of two conflicting materials are a problem of its' own).
 Just one brief look at the size of a single string and comparing it
 with the size of the whole instrument should make one to realize
 something here, right?
 I do not have an information on the early lutes in this regard, but
 early - baroque - bowed instruments as well as some later violins,
 especially those built and used in bad climes, had the inner wood
 surfaces treated with the mixture of hide glue and linseed oil.
 (There were actually some arguing this might have improved the
 instrument sound - to some tastes, that is, just off the top of my
 head - look up Frederick Castle's Violin tone peculiarities). Some
 other varnishes on the inner wood surface were observed as well. I
 have seen them on museum instruments. And some varnishes penetrated
 the wood deeply enough to create more wood stability. Think Cremona
 here.
 Protecting the inner wood surface of the lute would do much more to
 stabilize its' tuning in the case of rapid weather changes. But this
 will never happen, i would hazard to guess. Chasing a perfect string
 - there is the solution, of course.
 alexander r.
 On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 12:17:41 +1000
 Mark Probert [2]probe...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 My $0.02, living in Sydney Australia, is that nylgut mitigates
 some
 of he effect of fairly extreme weather changes.  We can have a
 thunder
 storm roll in and have the temperature drop by 10+C in the space
 of as
 many minutes.  Gut just gives up in those circumstances.
 
 Part B of this is the effect of the weather on the wood of the
 instrument.  One of my lutes is more stable than the other in the
 pegbox department.  When we are in a changing time, I am forced
 not to
 play this instrument for days at a time (I really don't enjoy the
 tune,
 tune, tune aspect).
 
 Then, isn't there the old adage of lute players spending half
 their
 time tuning and the other half playing out of tune?  This is not a
 new
 problem, though I 

[LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the whole lute

[Jarosław Lipski]

Maybe, but then how will you explain a quote from Mace p.66:
I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish color very good; yet but seldom; 
for that color is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay of the string. 
There are several sorts of colored strings, very good; but the best was always 
the clear blue; the red commonly rotten.
As far as I understand red color is a most popular color of loaded string. If 
this is so, how then they could be commonly rotten?

All best

Jaroslaw


Wiadomość napisana przez Anthony Hind w dniu 6 paź 2012, o godz. 21:12:

   Loading, to a certain extent does protect against humidity changes.
   Perhaps there may have been other treatments that we don't know about.
   Anthony
 __
 
   De : Sam Chapman manchap...@gmail.com
   A : alexander voka...@verizon.net
   Cc : Mark Probert probe...@gmail.com; lute-cs. edu
   lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Envoye le : Samedi 6 octobre 2012 18h03
   Objet : [LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the
   whole lute
 Interesting. Weren't strings sometimes also treated with certain oils
   -
 almond oil I think? I hadn't realised that this could potentially
 protect against humidity changes.
 Sam
 On 6 October 2012 15:05, alexander [1][1]voka...@verizon.net wrote:
   It needs to be understood, i think, that there are clearly two
   elements in the pitch (in)stability. The string material and design
   is, of course one. But for the light and breathing, as it is, lute,
   the movement of the whole structure, most likely influences the
   tuning much, much more. So, in this case, chasing the string mole
   while disregarding the body movement monster, is not going to solve
   anything. Especially with the synthetics, - the differences
   observed
   here are the result of a different stretch - flexibility of the
   materials, rather then some radical reaction from the material to
   the temperature - humidity change. (Of course the wound strings,
   consisting of two conflicting materials are a problem of its' own).
   Just one brief look at the size of a single string and comparing it
   with the size of the whole instrument should make one to realize
   something here, right?
   I do not have an information on the early lutes in this regard, but
   early - baroque - bowed instruments as well as some later violins,
   especially those built and used in bad climes, had the inner wood
   surfaces treated with the mixture of hide glue and linseed oil.
   (There were actually some arguing this might have improved the
   instrument sound - to some tastes, that is, just off the top of my
   head - look up Frederick Castle's Violin tone peculiarities).
   Some
   other varnishes on the inner wood surface were observed as well. I
   have seen them on museum instruments. And some varnishes penetrated
   the wood deeply enough to create more wood stability. Think Cremona
   here.
   Protecting the inner wood surface of the lute would do much more to
   stabilize its' tuning in the case of rapid weather changes. But
   this
   will never happen, i would hazard to guess. Chasing a perfect
   string
   - there is the solution, of course.
   alexander r.
   On Sat, 06 Oct 2012 12:17:41 +1000
   Mark Probert [2][2]probe...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 My $0.02, living in Sydney Australia, is that nylgut mitigates
   some
 of he effect of fairly extreme weather changes.  We can have a
   thunder
 storm roll in and have the temperature drop by 10+C in the space
   of as
 many minutes.  Gut just gives up in those circumstances.
 
 Part B of this is the effect of the weather on the wood of the
 instrument.  One of my lutes is more stable than the other in the
 pegbox department.  When we are in a changing time, I am forced
   not to
 play this instrument for days at a time (I really don't enjoy the
   tune,
 tune, tune aspect).
 
 Then, isn't there the old adage of lute players spending half
   their
 time tuning and the other half playing out of tune?  This is not
   a
   new
 problem, though I do believe that synthetics help.
 
 Kind regards
 
 --
 mark.
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [3][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
 Sam Chapman
 Oetlingerstrasse 65
 4057 Basel
 (0041) 79 530 39 91
 --
   References
 1. mailto:[4]voka...@verizon.net
 2. mailto:[5]probe...@gmail.com
 3. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
   --
 
 References
 
   1. mailto:voka...@verizon.net
   2. mailto:probe...@gmail.com
   3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   4. mailto:voka...@verizon.net
   5. mailto:probe...@gmail.com
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 

[LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics

[Jarosław Lipski]

Dear Anthony,

I understood from MP's website that one of the strong arguments for loaded 
basses is iconography which quite consistently shows red or brown-red bass 
strings, which are supposed to had been loaded using oxides of lead, copper, 
iron etc. We know from pictures that mainly basses were red or reddish and if 
they were only dyed (as Mace described), how can one discern them from loaded 
strings, and how one can take iconography as an evidence of loading if there is 
no difference between 2 types of strings on paintings? From Mace's description  
I get an impression that he talks about ordinary red dyed guts:
There is another sort of strings, which they call Pistoy basses, which I 
conceive are none other then thick Venice-catlines, which are commonly dyed, 
with a deep dark red color 
The same person writes on the same page that red colored strings are commonly 
rotten. For me it signifies that they were rather normally dyed, but not 
loaded. Obviously there is an argument about bridge holes etc, but I wouldn't 
like to return to our old discussion which in my opinion is quite difficult to 
solve at the moment without any new data.
Meanwhile (returning to our topic), I don't think one needs to prove 
superiority of one string material over another. Everything has its advantages 
and disadvantages.
Nice to hear from you too.
Best wishes

Jaroslaw

P.S. I am not against loaded bass theory, I'm just trying to asses all 
information objectively.



Wiadomość napisana przez Anthony Hind w dniu 6 paź 2012, o godz. 22:13:

   Oh I was only speaking about modern loaded strings, that at present are
   covered in the copper loading.
   I don't know what would happen with loading by saturation of an oxide,
   although presumably that
   should also prevent rotting. Oxide loading, however, could result in
   various colours.
   But according to Charles Besnainou thick untreated gut can also be
   reddish or yellowish in hue.
   I don't think colour is necessarilly always a sign of loading. Aren't
   Georges Stoppani's strings rather red.
   I am not of course suggesting tht they are prone to rot, but nor are
   they loaded (although he may have made a few in experiments).
   Nice to hear from you again
   Best wishes
   Anthony
 __
 
   De : JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
   AEUR : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   EnvoyA(c) le : Samedi 6 octobre 2012 21h45
   Objet : [LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of the
   whole lute
   Maybe, but then how will you explain a quote from Mace p.66:
   I have sometimes seen strings of a yellowish color very good; yet but
   seldom; for that color is a general sign of rottenness, or of the decay
   of the string. There are several sorts of colored strings, very good;
   but the best was always the clear blue; the red commonly rotten.
   As far as I understand red color is a most popular color of loaded
   string. If this is so, how then they could be commonly rotten?
   All best
   Jaroslaw
   WiadomoAAAe/= napisana przez Anthony Hind w dniu 6 paAA-o 2012, o
   godz. 21:12:
 Loading, to a certain extent does protect against humidity changes.
 Perhaps there may have been other treatments that we don't know
   about.
 Anthony
   __
 
 De : Sam Chapman [1]manchap...@gmail.com
 A : alexander [2]voka...@verizon.net
 Cc : Mark Probert [3]probe...@gmail.com; lute-cs. edu
 [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Envoye le : Samedi 6 octobre 2012 18h03
 Objet : [LUTE] Re: the point of synthetics - Rather the movement of
   the
 whole lute
   Interesting. Weren't strings sometimes also treated with certain
   oils
 -
   almond oil I think? I hadn't realised that this could potentially
   protect against humidity changes.
   Sam
   On 6 October 2012 15:05, alexander [1][1][5]voka...@verizon.net
   wrote:
 It needs to be understood, i think, that there are clearly two
 elements in the pitch (in)stability. The string material and
   design
 is, of course one. But for the light and breathing, as it is,
   lute,
 the movement of the whole structure, most likely influences the
 tuning much, much more. So, in this case, chasing the string
   mole
 while disregarding the body movement monster, is not going to
   solve
 anything. Especially with the synthetics, - the differences
 observed
 here are the result of a different stretch - flexibility of the
 materials, rather then some radical reaction from the material
   to
 the temperature - humidity change. (Of course the wound strings,
 consisting of two conflicting materials are a problem of its'
   own).
 Just one brief look at the size of a single string and comparing
   it
 with the size of the whole instrument should make one to realize
 something here, right?
 I do not have an information on the early lutes in this regard,
   but
 

[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten

[Jarosław Lipski]

Dear Martyn,

Obviously everything is possible. We could invent lots of scenarios on the 
spot. What I am trying to do however, is to simplify things. I can sense your 
reluctance in accepting that this particular instrument could have been the 
real thing and I can understand this as there are some features that are 
difficult to explain, but my attitude would be rather to find things that make 
sense and find what could be the reason for someone to do so. No one carefully 
restrings a lute in a very unusual but careful and logical way just to make a 
prop for a painting (or maybe she knew I would discover it and we will be 
talking about it and now she is laughing hearing it somewhere in the sky - it 
was just a pun of hers). If the picture was from 16th century Italy, I'd say 
it's a fake, but in 1745 Germany it seems to make sense. So what is that we 
don't like about it. As far as your objections are concerned I can see that 
it's mainly the angle of the strings and the bridge. Dealing with the !
 bridge issue is easier as it is not as much off center as it may seem from the 
first impression. I measured the distance between the last bass string - top 
edge of the belly and compared to the distance from the first string - bottom 
edge of the belly. The difference isn't very significant, so it could be either 
painter's error or Eleonore moved all strings up from bass towards treble side. 
The angle of the strings is a little bit skewed, but again we could find many 
explanations for this too. One could be that Pesne didn't get it right because 
he didn't care if the strings show on the fingerboard or not.
As for your and Louis's concerns about posing I can tell you (as my wife is a 
painter) that there are thousand ways to arrange a posing session without 
causing much fatigue for a model. As an Englishman probably you are familiar 
with the collection of the Royal family paintings  in the National Portrait 
Gallery in London (close to Leicester Square tube station). Some of them have 
explanations underneath that the portrait was made only from the sketches made 
during very short posing sessions as the King was too busy to sit for a longer 
period of time. If I didn't read it I would never ever say it was made from 
some sketches. Some portraits look as if a painter spent many hours with the 
model. Absolutely unbelievable, but people knew their profession and ways to 
deal with difficult situations.

Regards

Jaroslaw



Wiadomość napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 21 lip 2012, o godz. 08:49:

 
   Dear Jaroslaw,
 
   It's clear that none us can present a definitive case about this
   instrument.
 
   But just one other thought: a noble sitter would not expect to pose
   indefinitely for their portrait and mostly only the face and general
   physique would have been taken from life. You suggest it would have
   been just the background: I suspect the clothes etc and any other
   appendages (such as an instrument) would probably also have been
   painted in separately. Is it not possible that even if the lute were
   Elizabeth's own instrument it was lent to Pesne in a state without the
   top two courses (possibly the strings had broken) - but he, realising
   that strings ought to come from the bridge, made his own corrections
   there but not at the nut..  All speculation of course.
 
   Mouton was a celebrated professional lutenist and we can
   reasonably expect him to be have been concerned about the precise
   depiction of his (sole?) means of income.
 
   regards
 
   Martyn
   --- On Fri, 20/7/12, JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote:
 
 From: JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 21:00
 
   Luis,
   We live in very different times. In past people were accustomed to
   things that we wouldn't tolerate. As far as I know many people were
   portrait with real instruments, otherwise we could say that all
   iconography is rubbish. Is portrait of Moutton just a rubbish? Was he
   holding a prop? A very reputable lute maker made an exact copy of that
   instrument by making computer calculations on measurements taken from
   the very picture.
   As far as painting as an art is concerned there are ways to make things
   much easier for a model like taking some sketches and then assembling
   everything afterwards without a model. Then some corrections are made
   by confronting it with reality. I am sure she wasn't posing in her
   garden as can be seen on the picture. The whole background was added
   independently. The whole beauty of Rococo (obviously if you like it) is
   in that mixture of reality of figures and fantasy of landscapes. A
   little bit soppy it is, but this is the way people loved it at that
   time.
   About your concerns on the dirty soundboard I'd say that one has to be
   very cautious in making such statements as  the texture of 

[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten

[Jarosław Lipski]

Martyn,

Just another scenario. 
I've carefully checked where all the lines go, and it began to dawn on me that 
it was a painting procedure which went wrong. So lets try to reconstruct the 
process of painting this picture. 
Pesne knows very well that he can't ask Eleonore to sit for a very long time 
with her lute, so on the first session he makes a sketch of the whole figure 
marking only where the lute should be, and drawing approximate shape without 
any detail at all (this would take a reality short time for a skillful artist). 
The big robe apparently wasn't used as one can see the shape of her body around 
the waist area showing through the brown color of the lute. During the next 
session she would be asked to sit without a lute and he would be concentrating 
on her face solely using already oil paint or maybe putting a wash first. 
Another time he would paint her torso, without proceeding further than the top 
edge of the lute (but including it). Alternatively he could ask her to hold the 
lute for a moment to paint the upper part of the belly trying to find a proper 
color rather than focusing on any details like strings (the neck and lower part 
of the belly would be omitted).  And now we are com!
 ing to the most important part where things went wrong! The last thing he 
would need her to pose were her hands.  During that session he was painting her 
left hand only (right side of the picture), however he couldn't have done it 
without her holding the lute. Because he didn't want her to sit for long, he 
painted only lute's head and her palm ending on her pinky's side (including her 
lace-trimmed robe cuff).
I made a very big close up on my 24 inch monitor, took a ruler and started 
measuring from the nut. Instantly it became obvious that if you prolonged the 
bottom line of the fingerboard's edge around a nut area you would end up where 
it should be (it would be absolutely parallel to the 1st string on the whole 
length with a proper distance from the edge as if 2 strings were missing). So 
this is what he intended to paint. On that particular day Eleonore brought her 
lute in continuo tuning because latter in the evening she was to accompany the 
Queen. Pesne painted some details of the lute that he could notice - like red 
strings beginning from the third course and the lack of 1st (and 2nd?) courses. 
It was rather tiring for her to keep the lute still in one position, so Pesne 
stopped painting after making sure that he can finish this area without her.
Then there was the last session he needed her to pose. The right hand. And here 
the problems began. On that day she must have come with a lute set for solo 
playing. Pesne hasn't noticed it not being a lute player, and Eleonore didn't 
let him know as she (not having any experience as a painter) hadn't realized 
importance of this change. So Pesne started with the bottom area of the lute 
going up towards first 2 courses. He confidently painted the end of the bridge 
and her fingers proceeding diagonally along the lower part of the belly. At 
some point he wanted to connect this area of the picture with her left hand. He 
then drew the line of the first course aand..disaster!!! Sudenly he 
realized something went wrong. The discussion with the model starts, Eleonore 
is very surprised, he becomes more and more confused, but not wanting to 
disappoint the client he decides to hide his mistake especially that he (not 
being a lute player himself) doesn't feel it was his fault. Th!
 en he makes big efforts to cover this up and save the painting. In the first 
place he asks Elonore to raise the lute a little bit so he is able to connect 
two points of the first string nut groove -bridge hole. Note that the oval of 
the bottom edge of the belly does not have a perfect shape (in comparison to 
upper) as if he was correcting it not being sure where it should go. Then there 
was this most difficult part to hide. The bottom edge of the fingerboard. Pesne 
didn't know how to get himself out of this trouble, so he decided to put as 
dark paint in this area as possible so that it wouldn't be so obvious where the 
edge really should be. The rest was painted without Eleonore. The upper part of 
the lute (it looks quite artificial against her torso), strings, etc. he didn't 
care about any angles at that time because there was nothing to be done 
already. After adding the background, lower part of the robe and making 
finishing touches he showed his picture to Eleonore. She w!
 as very happy, because Pesne did his best to show her real bea!
 uty. She was flattered and even didn't notice that there was something wrong 
with her lute. And even if she did, she wouldn't mind as the painting had 
exceeded her most daring expectations. The happy end!
This very likely story and the end result which for some of you may seem 
challenging the whole stringing idea behind this lute, could even confirm one 
that the dual purpose of this setting 

[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten

[Jarosław Lipski]

Dear Martyn,

It may look very incorrect however we have to keep in mind that a painting is 
not a photograph. A painter has other goals to achieve. We can examine some 
interesting details of paintings, but coming into direct conclusions is another 
matter.
First of all, Antoine Pesne who was the director of the Berlin Academy of the 
Arts from 1722 (where he was called by King Frederick I of Prussia) wouldn't 
get things totally wrong IMO. Have a look at his other paintings - it's really 
difficult to find one thing that is incorrectly depicted. On the other hand one 
has to take into consideration that the texture he used,  especially to paint a 
background, or items that were classified by him as less important, was not 
perfectly lucid, sharp or hyper realistic. He was called later one of the 
fathers of Rococo in painting and the new style had different means of showing 
reality.  He was a fine portraitist and had very good powers of observation 
though. I doubt very much if he used a ruler to paint the strings we are 
talking about (and he probably didn't care, not knowing that there would be 
some maniacs like us a couple of centuries later who would dispute about these 
archaic instruments). However what is of some interest to me i!
 s the fact that he noticed free grooves on the nut, missing chantarelles, red 
strings on the bass side from the 3rd course on, and a longish neck. How the 
first string is attached to the bridge is difficult to say as I can't see 
anything apart from a whitish line over the bridge which could mean a normal 
way of tying a string. As I said before, we shouldn't expect the same level of 
clarity in details as in some Renaissance or early Baroque pictures. If you are 
concerned about asymmetry in placing the bridge I would say that we can not see 
where exactly it ends on the bass side as it's covered by Lady's forearm. If 
you judge it by the position of the last bass string it can be misleading as 
the Lady could have moved all courses towards treble side. Whether she played 
this instrument or not is not really important here.

Then, what kind of instrument is this? My guess is that it could have been an 
example of a German D-minor theorbo (the one that Weiss talked about) rebuild 
from a normal 13 course lute. Why?
1/ The time and place is correct - the portrait was painted in Berlin in 1745 
(some more info on Eleonore http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleonore_von_Schlieben 
 ).
2/ We can't see the whole instrument, but it's clear that diapasons are not 
attached in the 1st pegbox, so there must be another one somewhere up there. 
Conclusion - the instrument has a long neck and 2 pegboxes. Because of the time 
and place it is doubtful if it could be an archlute. Then a swan neck lute or 
theorbo is possible.
3/ The Lady took off trebles and the only reason for doing so could be a need 
of transforming the lute into continuo instrument.
4/ The octave stringing from the 3rd course down only confirm this supposition.
5/ The number of fingerboard frets can suggest that proportions of the body to 
neck could have been changed in favor of the neck. It is possible that the real 
proportions of this lute were not portrayed correctly intentionally because of 
the constraints caused by the composition of this painting. Lady's figure is 
centrally placed like an axis of the picture, so it is possible that Pesne 
wanted to fit the 1st pegbox within view. This in turn may suggest that it 
could be more theorbo-like.

All in all it is a very interesting stringing idea - to use one D-minor 
instrument alternatively for continuo or solo just by rearranging a stringing. 
Obviously I can be totally wrong, but it gives me an idea though.

All the best

Jaroslaw



Wiadomość napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 09:07:

 
   Dear Jaroslaw,
 
   It may be some sort of sport (in a modern biological sense), but I
   suspect either the painter didn't quite get it right - see how the
   first string is fastened not to the to the body of the bridge but to
   the treble point! - or the neck is indeed incorrectly set (maybe in
   converting from an instrument with fewer courses the neck was not
   canted over to ensure the bridge remained central...
 
   Do we know if she actually played the lute or is this just an example
   of an elegant pose adopted simply for pictorial delight?
 
   Martyn
   --- On Thu, 19/7/12, JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote:
 
 From: JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
 Subject: [LUTE] Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Thursday, 19 July, 2012, 20:45
 
   here is a link if interested
   [1]http://uploads7.wikipaintings.org/images/antoine-pesne/portrait-of-e
   leonore-louise-albertine-comtesse-von-schlieben-sanditten-freifrau-von-
   keyserlingk.jpg
   JL
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
   --
 
 

[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten

[Jarosław Lipski]

Yes, I agree more or less. The only thing that I am not sure of is whether 2 
first grooves on the nut are far apart because this is how they were in 
reality, or Pesne didn't bother to depict a proper spacing. So it could be 
either swan neck 13c  (14c?) modified for continuo, or a German d-minor theorbo.

Best wishes

Jaroslaw

P.S. I wonder if there is anyone living in Berlin who saw this painting in 
reality (Schloß Charlottenburg gallery).



Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Mathias Rösel w dniu 19 lip 2012, o godz. 23:15:

   removed one or two top courses. It's ended up as an 11 course
   instrument and there is a fair amount of 11 course music intended for
   liuto attiorbato, 
 
 I count four double courses on the extension and eight double course over
 the fret-board, totalling twelve courses. The coloured strings seem to be
 the fundamentals. 
 
 There is more space between the 3rd to 9th courses on the lute than between
 the outer courses. So the 1st course, running from the groove of the 3rd
 course, probably is attached to the holes of the 1st course in the bridge. 
 
 To my eyes, the spacing of the empty 1st and 2nd grooves in the nut points
 at single courses. 
 
 To summarize, this seems to be a 14c baroque lute with a rather uncommon
 disposition of the strings, viz. ten courses on the fret-board, and four
 courses on the extension.
 
 She seems to use it, nevertheless, as a 12c theorbo (note the position of
 her right hand).
 
 Mathias
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 


--

[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten

[Jarosław Lipski]

I understand that you would always have 8+4 setting. The only thing is that one 
would have to rearrange couple of courses when changing from continuo to solo 
and back. However after some time of examining very closely the pegbox I am 
more inclined to say that there is something on the treble side that may 
suggest a kind of a rider for the 1st course. As I said, Pesne had this Rococo 
style of painting so nothing is sharp in the background, but if it's true that 
there was something there it could explain why the first 2 grooves are sharper, 
more apart and sort of in the closer perspective to us. Who knows?

Jaroslaw



Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez William Samson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 14:05:

 Let us suppose, for a moment, that the two missing strings are replaced - 
 Assuming that they are two single strings, that would give 10 courses on the 
 first pegbox.  That seems rather a lot to me - I'm not aware of any 
 instrument of this kind (archlute, theorbo, swan-neck) that has 10 courses on 
 the first pegbox.  Also the nut looks rather short for 10 courses.  Of course 
 I could be wrong, but I'm still puzzled.
  
 Bill
  
 PS  I love puzzles like this!
 
 From: Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
 Sent: Friday, 20 July 2012, 12:52
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
 
 Dear Martyn,
 
 It may look very incorrect however we have to keep in mind that a painting is 
 not a photograph. A painter has other goals to achieve. We can examine some 
 interesting details of paintings, but coming into direct conclusions is 
 another matter.
 First of all, Antoine Pesne who was the director of the Berlin Academy of the 
 Arts from 1722 (where he was called by King Frederick I of Prussia) wouldn't 
 get things totally wrong IMO. Have a look at his other paintings - it's 
 really difficult to find one thing that is incorrectly depicted. On the other 
 hand one has to take into consideration that the texture he used,  especially 
 to paint a background, or items that were classified by him as less 
 important, was not perfectly lucid, sharp or hyper realistic. He was called 
 later one of the fathers of Rococo in painting and the new style had 
 different means of showing reality.  He was a fine portraitist and had very 
 good powers of observation though. I doubt very much if he used a ruler to 
 paint the strings we are talking about (and he probably didn't care, not 
 knowing that there would be some maniacs like us a couple of centuries later 
 who would dispute about these archaic instruments). However what is of some 
 interest to me!
  i!
 s the fact that he noticed free grooves on the nut, missing chantarelles, red 
 strings on the bass side from the 3rd course on, and a longish neck. How the 
 first string is attached to the bridge is difficult to say as I can't see 
 anything apart from a whitish line over the bridge which could mean a normal 
 way of tying a string. As I said before, we shouldn't expect the same level 
 of clarity in details as in some Renaissance or early Baroque pictures. If 
 you are concerned about asymmetry in placing the bridge I would say that we 
 can not see where exactly it ends on the bass side as it's covered by Lady's 
 forearm. If you judge it by the position of the last bass string it can be 
 misleading as the Lady could have moved all courses towards treble side. 
 Whether she played this instrument or not is not really important here.
 
 Then, what kind of instrument is this? My guess is that it could have been an 
 example of a German D-minor theorbo (the one that Weiss talked about) rebuild 
 from a normal 13 course lute. Why?
 1/ The time and place is correct - the portrait was painted in Berlin in 1745 
 (some more info on Eleonore 
 http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleonore_von_Schlieben  ).
 2/ We can't see the whole instrument, but it's clear that diapasons are not 
 attached in the 1st pegbox, so there must be another one somewhere up there. 
 Conclusion - the instrument has a long neck and 2 pegboxes. Because of the 
 time and place it is doubtful if it could be an archlute. Then a swan neck 
 lute or theorbo is possible.
 3/ The Lady took off trebles and the only reason for doing so could be a need 
 of transforming the lute into continuo instrument.
 4/ The octave stringing from the 3rd course down only confirm this 
 supposition.
 5/ The number of fingerboard frets can suggest that proportions of the body 
 to neck could have been changed in favor of the neck. It is possible that the 
 real proportions of this lute were not portrayed correctly intentionally 
 because of the constraints caused by the composition of this painting. Lady's 
 figure is centrally placed like an axis of the picture, so it is possible 
 that Pesne wanted to fit the 1st pegbox within view. This in turn may suggest 
 that it could be more theorbo-like.
 
 All in all it is a very interesting stringing idea - to use one D-minor 
 instrument 

[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten

[Jarosław Lipski]

Hello Martyn,

It is just a painting, so we can't judge its credibility by making measurements 
.  In a praxis of painting sometimes it's just a matter of adding a little bit 
more of a dark paint beneath the string (and there is already a dark background 
there so he might have thought it satisfied him artistically) however, as said 
before I doubt very much if Pesne would care about this kind of detail. Did he 
mind what exact angle the string goes at?  It doesn't matter what this 
instrument was used for and by whom. Painters could err obviously, but I 
wouldn't ignore some details that can make sense in this particular painting 
especially that they are not against the evidence.

All the best

Jaroslaw


Wiadomość napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 14:24:

 
   Thanks for this Jaroslaw,
 
   You may be right, but Pesne wouldn't be the first good painter to get a
   technical details wrong - perhaps of no real consequence to him.
 
   But if it is an absolutley precise depiction then some worrying things
   about the general disposition of the instrument make me a bit sceptical
   that any meaningful conclusions can be drawn. Noteably, the
   first string running to the edge of the fingerboard at the neck/body
   join even though the third nut grooves are used.
 
   Do we know is she actually played the lute or is this just an artistic
   pose? If the latter this might be a dud lute being used as a sort of
   stage prop.
 
   Martyn
   --- On Fri, 20/7/12, JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote:
 
 From: JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 12:52
 
   Dear Martyn,
   It may look very incorrect however we have to keep in mind that a
   painting is not a photograph. A painter has other goals to achieve. We
   can examine some interesting details of paintings, but coming into
   direct conclusions is another matter.
   First of all, Antoine Pesne who was the director of the Berlin Academy
   of the Arts from 1722 (where he was called by King Frederick I of
   Prussia) wouldn't get things totally wrong IMO. Have a look at his
   other paintings - it's really difficult to find one thing that is
   incorrectly depicted. On the other hand one has to take into
   consideration that the texture he used,  especially to paint a
   background, or items that were classified by him as less important, was
   not perfectly lucid, sharp or hyper realistic. He was called later one
   of the fathers of Rococo in painting and the new style had different
   means of showing reality.  He was a fine portraitist and had very good
   powers of observation though. I doubt very much if he used a ruler to
   paint the strings we are talking about (and he probably didn't care,
   not knowing that there would be some maniacs like us a couple of
   centuries later who would dispute about these archaic instruments).
   However what is of some interest to me i!
   s the fact that he noticed free grooves on the nut, missing
   chantarelles, red strings on the bass side from the 3rd course on, and
   a longish neck. How the first string is attached to the bridge is
   difficult to say as I can't see anything apart from a whitish line over
   the bridge which could mean a normal way of tying a string. As I said
   before, we shouldn't expect the same level of clarity in details as in
   some Renaissance or early Baroque pictures. If you are concerned about
   asymmetry in placing the bridge I would say that we can not see where
   exactly it ends on the bass side as it's covered by Lady's forearm. If
   you judge it by the position of the last bass string it can be
   misleading as the Lady could have moved all courses towards treble
   side. Whether she played this instrument or not is not really important
   here.
   Then, what kind of instrument is this? My guess is that it could have
   been an example of a German D-minor theorbo (the one that Weiss talked
   about) rebuild from a normal 13 course lute. Why?
   1/ The time and place is correct - the portrait was painted in Berlin
   in 1745 (some more info on Eleonore
   [1]http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleonore_von_Schlieben  ).
   2/ We can't see the whole instrument, but it's clear that diapasons are
   not attached in the 1st pegbox, so there must be another one somewhere
   up there. Conclusion - the instrument has a long neck and 2 pegboxes.
   Because of the time and place it is doubtful if it could be an
   archlute. Then a swan neck lute or theorbo is possible.
   3/ The Lady took off trebles and the only reason for doing so could be
   a need of transforming the lute into continuo instrument.
   4/ The octave stringing from the 3rd course down only confirm this
   supposition.
   5/ The number of fingerboard frets can suggest that proportions of the
   body to neck could have been changed in favor of the neck. It is
   

[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten

[Jarosław Lipski]

Thank you Martyn,

No, I am sorry, unfortunately it is not known to me.

Jaroslaw


Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 18:46:

 Thank you Jaroslaw,
  
 You write 'There is a strong evidence that Eleonore very often accompanied 
 Elisabeth and two Ladies made music on regular basis.' - is there any record 
 of what instrument(s)  Eleonore actually played at these little concerts?
  
 Martyn
  
 
 
 --- On Fri, 20/7/12, Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote:
 
 From: Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 17:35
 
 Just another thought.
 Eleonore married Detrich von Keyserling who was a very close friend of 
 Frederick II. In 1744  she gave birth to her daughter Adelaide. Frederick 
 decided to be Adelaide's godfather and during the baptism ceremony he was 
 keeping the child in his arms. Soon Keyserlings were moved to Schloss 
 Schonhausen according to Frederick's will.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schönhausen_Palace 
 This was the place were Frederick's wife Elisabeth Christine of 
 Brunswick-Bevern resided, as a result of Frederick's animosity towards her 
 (he couldn't accept her in Potsdam). There is a strong evidence that Eleonore 
 very often accompanied Elisabeth and two Ladies made music on regular basis.
 If this information is correct it becomes apparent the the instrument on 
 Eleonore's portrait is not a stage prop. If she was to accompany the Queen, 
 and I believe this is what must have been the case (I couldn't imagine the 
 Queen accompanying Eleonore) it is very possible that Eleonore decided to 
 transfer her lute into a continuo instrument. In short, what we can observe 
 on the painting must have been her endeavors to please the Queen. If she was 
 successful is another matter.
 
 Jaroslaw
 
 
 Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 14:24:
 
  
Thanks for this Jaroslaw,
  
You may be right, but Pesne wouldn't be the first good painter to get a
technical details wrong - perhaps of no real consequence to him.
  
But if it is an absolutley precise depiction then some worrying things
about the general disposition of the instrument make me a bit sceptical
that any meaningful conclusions can be drawn. Noteably, the
first string running to the edge of the fingerboard at the neck/body
join even though the third nut grooves are used.
  
Do we know is she actually played the lute or is this just an artistic
pose? If the latter this might be a dud lute being used as a sort of
stage prop.
  
Martyn
--- On Fri, 20/7/12, JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote:
  
  From: JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
  To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 12:52
  
Dear Martyn,
It may look very incorrect however we have to keep in mind that a
painting is not a photograph. A painter has other goals to achieve. We
can examine some interesting details of paintings, but coming into
direct conclusions is another matter.
First of all, Antoine Pesne who was the director of the Berlin Academy
of the Arts from 1722 (where he was called by King Frederick I of
Prussia) wouldn't get things totally wrong IMO. Have a look at his
other paintings - it's really difficult to find one thing that is
incorrectly depicted. On the other hand one has to take into
consideration that the texture he used,  especially to paint a
background, or items that were classified by him as less important, was
not perfectly lucid, sharp or hyper realistic. He was called later one
of the fathers of Rococo in painting and the new style had different
means of showing reality.  He was a fine portraitist and had very good
powers of observation though. I doubt very much if he used a ruler to
paint the strings we are talking about (and he probably didn't care,
not knowing that there would be some maniacs like us a couple of
centuries later who would dispute about these archaic instruments).
However what is of some interest to me i!
s the fact that he noticed free grooves on the nut, missing
chantarelles, red strings on the bass side from the 3rd course on, and
a longish neck. How the first string is attached to the bridge is
difficult to say as I can't see anything apart from a whitish line over
the bridge which could mean a normal way of tying a string. As I said
before, we shouldn't expect the same level of clarity in details as in
some Renaissance or early Baroque pictures. If you are concerned about
asymmetry in placing the bridge I would say that we can not see where
exactly it ends on the bass side as it's covered by Lady's forearm. If
you judge it by the position of the last bass string 

[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten

[Jarosław Lipski]

Thank you Martyn,

Sorry, I've pushed the button too early by mistake.
No, I am sorry, unfortunately it is not known to me, but I can't see the reason 
for which she would take for a portrait an instrument that she didn't play 
instead of an instrument that she did.

Jaroslaw

Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 18:46:

 Thank you Jaroslaw,
  
 You write 'There is a strong evidence that Eleonore very often accompanied 
 Elisabeth and two Ladies made music on regular basis.' - is there any record 
 of what instrument(s)  Eleonore actually played at these little concerts?
  
 Martyn
  
 
 
 --- On Fri, 20/7/12, Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote:
 
 From: Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 17:35
 
 Just another thought.
 Eleonore married Detrich von Keyserling who was a very close friend of 
 Frederick II. In 1744  she gave birth to her daughter Adelaide. Frederick 
 decided to be Adelaide's godfather and during the baptism ceremony he was 
 keeping the child in his arms. Soon Keyserlings were moved to Schloss 
 Schonhausen according to Frederick's will.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schönhausen_Palace 
 This was the place were Frederick's wife Elisabeth Christine of 
 Brunswick-Bevern resided, as a result of Frederick's animosity towards her 
 (he couldn't accept her in Potsdam). There is a strong evidence that Eleonore 
 very often accompanied Elisabeth and two Ladies made music on regular basis.
 If this information is correct it becomes apparent the the instrument on 
 Eleonore's portrait is not a stage prop. If she was to accompany the Queen, 
 and I believe this is what must have been the case (I couldn't imagine the 
 Queen accompanying Eleonore) it is very possible that Eleonore decided to 
 transfer her lute into a continuo instrument. In short, what we can observe 
 on the painting must have been her endeavors to please the Queen. If she was 
 successful is another matter.
 
 Jaroslaw
 
 
 Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 14:24:
 
  
Thanks for this Jaroslaw,
  
You may be right, but Pesne wouldn't be the first good painter to get a
technical details wrong - perhaps of no real consequence to him.
  
But if it is an absolutley precise depiction then some worrying things
about the general disposition of the instrument make me a bit sceptical
that any meaningful conclusions can be drawn. Noteably, the
first string running to the edge of the fingerboard at the neck/body
join even though the third nut grooves are used.
  
Do we know is she actually played the lute or is this just an artistic
pose? If the latter this might be a dud lute being used as a sort of
stage prop.
  
Martyn
--- On Fri, 20/7/12, JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote:
  
  From: JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
  Subject: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
  To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 12:52
  
Dear Martyn,
It may look very incorrect however we have to keep in mind that a
painting is not a photograph. A painter has other goals to achieve. We
can examine some interesting details of paintings, but coming into
direct conclusions is another matter.
First of all, Antoine Pesne who was the director of the Berlin Academy
of the Arts from 1722 (where he was called by King Frederick I of
Prussia) wouldn't get things totally wrong IMO. Have a look at his
other paintings - it's really difficult to find one thing that is
incorrectly depicted. On the other hand one has to take into
consideration that the texture he used,  especially to paint a
background, or items that were classified by him as less important, was
not perfectly lucid, sharp or hyper realistic. He was called later one
of the fathers of Rococo in painting and the new style had different
means of showing reality.  He was a fine portraitist and had very good
powers of observation though. I doubt very much if he used a ruler to
paint the strings we are talking about (and he probably didn't care,
not knowing that there would be some maniacs like us a couple of
centuries later who would dispute about these archaic instruments).
However what is of some interest to me i!
s the fact that he noticed free grooves on the nut, missing
chantarelles, red strings on the bass side from the 3rd course on, and
a longish neck. How the first string is attached to the bridge is
difficult to say as I can't see anything apart from a whitish line over
the bridge which could mean a normal way of tying a string. As I said
before, we shouldn't expect the same level of clarity in details as in
some Renaissance or early Baroque pictures. If you are concerned about
asymmetry 

[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten

[Jarosław Lipski]

Yes, but Eleonore was musical and could play, so the question is why she would 
borrow a strangely looking prop lute instead of the instrument that she new how 
to play.  Normally a musician wants to be pictured with his own instrument.
I am not saying that everything looks correct in this lute for me, but I would 
be far from jumping into a conclusion that it couldn't have been a real 
instrument of her in playing condition, because we are dealing here with a 
painting, not a photograph. To be clear, I have to say that I am not defending 
any theory, because we all can only be guessing. However I tried to draw your 
attention to some details which are interesting for me especially the idea of 
octave stringing with omission of chantarelles which might be good for continuo 
playing.

Jaroslaw


Wiadomość napisana przez wayne cripps w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 19:20:

 
 
 There is a picture in the National Gallery of Scotland of
 a woman playing a theorbo, with the comment that she couldn't play,
 she borrowed it for the painting, and then she didn't return it.
 I didn't make a note of the details, but it was in a book catalog
 of the museum.
 
 Wayne
 
 Begin forwarded message:
 
 From: Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
 Date: July 20, 2012 1:04:43 PM EDT
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 
 Thank you Martyn,
 
 Sorry, I've pushed the button too early by mistake.
 No, I am sorry, unfortunately it is not known to me, but I can't see the 
 reason for which she would take for a portrait an instrument that she didn't 
 play instead of an instrument that she did.
 
 Jaroslaw
 
 Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 18:46:
 
 Thank you Jaroslaw,
 
 You write 'There is a strong evidence that Eleonore very often accompanied 
 Elisabeth and two Ladies made music on regular basis.' - is there any 
 record of what instrument(s)  Eleonore actually played at these little 
 concerts?
 
 Martyn
 
 
 
 --- On Fri, 20/7/12, Jaros“aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote:
 
 From: Jaros“aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
 To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
 Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 17:35
 
 Just another thought.
 Eleonore married Detrich von Keyserling who was a very close friend of 
 Frederick II. In 1744  she gave birth to her daughter Adelaide. Frederick 
 decided to be Adelaide's godfather and during the baptism ceremony he was 
 keeping the child in his arms. Soon Keyserlings were moved to Schloss 
 Schonhausen according to Frederick's will.
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schönhausen_Palace 
 This was the place were Frederick's wife Elisabeth Christine of 
 Brunswick-Bevern resided, as a result of Frederick's animosity towards her 
 (he couldn't accept her in Potsdam). There is a strong evidence that 
 Eleonore very often accompanied Elisabeth and two Ladies made music on 
 regular basis.
 If this information is correct it becomes apparent the the instrument on 
 Eleonore's portrait is not a stage prop. If she was to accompany the Queen, 
 and I believe this is what must have been the case (I couldn't imagine the 
 Queen accompanying Eleonore) it is very possible that Eleonore decided to 
 transfer her lute into a continuo instrument. In short, what we can observe 
 on the painting must have been her endeavors to please the Queen. If she 
 was successful is another matter.
 
 Jaroslaw
 
 
 Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 14:24:
 
 
 Thanks for this Jaroslaw,
 
 You may be right, but Pesne wouldn't be the first good painter to get a
 technical details wrong - perhaps of no real consequence to him.
 
 But if it is an absolutley precise depiction then some worrying things
 about the general disposition of the instrument make me a bit sceptical
 that any meaningful conclusions can be drawn. Noteably, the
 first string running to the edge of the fingerboard at the neck/body
 join even though the third nut grooves are used.
 
 Do we know is she actually played the lute or is this just an artistic
 pose? If the latter this might be a dud lute being used as a sort of
 stage prop.
 
 Martyn
 --- On Fri, 20/7/12, JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote:
 
   From: JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
   To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Date: Friday, 20 July, 2012, 12:52
 
 Dear Martyn,
 It may look very incorrect however we have to keep in mind that a
 painting is not a photograph. A painter has other goals to achieve. We
 can examine some interesting details of paintings, but coming into
 direct conclusions is another matter.
 First of all, Antoine Pesne who was the director of the Berlin Academy
 of the Arts from 1722 (where he was called by King Frederick I of
 Prussia) wouldn't get things totally wrong IMO. Have a look at his
 other paintings - it's really difficult to find one thing

[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten

[Jarosław Lipski]

Luis,

We live in very different times. In past people were accustomed to things that 
we wouldn't tolerate. As far as I know many people were portrait with real 
instruments, otherwise we could say that all iconography is rubbish. Is 
portrait of Moutton just a rubbish? Was he holding a prop? A very reputable 
lute maker made an exact copy of that instrument by making computer 
calculations on measurements taken from the very picture. 
As far as painting as an art is concerned there are ways to make things much 
easier for a model like taking some sketches and then assembling everything 
afterwards without a model. Then some corrections are made by confronting it 
with reality. I am sure she wasn't posing in her garden as can be seen on the 
picture. The whole background was added independently. The whole beauty of 
Rococo (obviously if you like it) is in that mixture of reality of figures and 
fantasy of landscapes. A little bit soppy it is, but this is the way people 
loved it at that time. 
About your concerns on the dirty soundboard I'd say that one has to be very 
cautious in making such statements as  the texture of Rococo paintings is 
usually very uneven, impressionistic, unclear, colorful, without  photographic 
gloss, and therefore it can't be taken as if it was a reality. I can't see any 
dirt, sorry. It's just shading.

Jaroslaw



Wiadomość napisana przez Louis Aull w dniu 20 lip 2012, o godz. 20:07:

   Jaroslaw,
 
 
   Just conjecture, but I would not use a working instrument to pose for
   many hours for a painting of this detail. I keep mine in a case at all
   times it is not being played to help keep it in tune. Do you think she
   would tolerate a lute of her own that dirty? In that dress?
 
 
   Louis Aull
 
 
 
   --
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE] Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten

[Jarosław Lipski]

The portrait of Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten is quite well known, I wonder 
however if anyone examined some details of her lute. There are two interesting 
details that are easily visible in closer magnification. 1/ There are 2 free 
grooves of the nut on the treble side 2/ Beginning from the 3rd course every 
string within a course on the bass side is red (octave tuning?). I just wonder 
if she got rid of chantarelles and tuned down all instrument to set it for 
continuo playing? Any ideas?

JL 



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten

[Jarosław Lipski]

Dear David,

Indeed it looks like 8+4 setting.  The 1st string runs almost to the edge of 
the bridge, but when examined on a big screen it's difficult to say if there is 
any hole left on the bridge (treble side).
As for a ribbon stripe attached to the neck block button it could be that this 
kind of arrangement was favored by ladies because of side hoops (panniers) of 
their robes, which probably used to give much better stability and support for 
a lute.
Another extraordinary feature of this lute is the number of fingerboard frets. 
I am not sure as the paint is a little bit smudged, but it  looks like there 
are 11 frets + 2 wooden on the soundboard.
All in all very unusual.

Best wishes

Jaroslaw

 
Wiadomość napisana przez David Van Edwards w dniu 19 lip 2012, o godz. 22:57:

   Sorry, correction, I miscounted the diapasons it's 12 course
   instrument, even odder.
 
   Though, if she was given to wholesale restringing, it could imply a
   restrung theorbo (or more likely archlute given the apparent size) with
   the normal 8 single diapasons becoming here four octave strung
   diapasons.
 
   Best wishes,
 
   David
 
   Dear Jaroslaw,
 
   That's fascinating, I'd never looked for a high res image and had never
   noticed.
 
   I'm sure you're right that the coloured strings imply octave stringing,
   rare up as far as the 3rd course though it is.
 
   The empty nut grooves for 2 top strings are a bit more of a puzzle
   because the current top string goes to the extreme end of the bridge,
   so either the neck never was on at the right angle (unlikely for an
   instrument belonging to such a rich well-connected lady, and anyway why
   then the empty grooves) or she has spread the bridge courses as well as
   removed one or two top courses. It's ended up as an 11 course
   instrument and there is a fair amount of 11 course music intended for
   liuto attiorbato, and the double diapason courses are also a liuto
   attiorbato feature rather than an Italian theorbo feature, and imply a
   relatively short grand jeu. But that's rather early for this date and
   anyway the wrong country. Maybe it's a Baron style tuning for continuo
   of D min but omitting the top course, which wouldn't necessarily
   require tuning the whole instrument lower. All very intriguing!
 
   Also notice she is using a ribbon strap in a slightly modern round
   the shoulder style but going to a button on the neckblock rather than
   to the extension. Most of those neckblock buttons on surviving lutes
   are too small to function in this way and we normally assume they
   implied a tight gut cord between the buttons which was hooked onto a
   clothing button. This looks more like the style of ribbon/strap used in
   the Watteau painting of a similar period http://tinyurl.com/d95ag2a
   This usage implies that the main stability was created by a constant
   pressure forwards with the left-hand thumb.
 
   Maybe the French comparison of playing style and fashionable clothing
   might suggest that she is simply playing 11 course French music?
 
   Best wishes,
 
   David
 
   At 21:12 +0200 19/7/12, =?iso-8859-2?Q?Jaros^3aw_Lipski?wrote:
 
 The portrait of Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten is quite well
 known, I wonder however if anyone examined some details of her lute.
 There are two interesting details that are easily visible in closer
 magnification. 1/ There are 2 free grooves of the nut on the treble
 side 2/ Beginning from the 3rd course every string within a course
 on the bass side is red (octave tuning?). I just wonder if she got
 rid of chantarelles and tuned down all instrument to set it for
 continuo playing? Any ideas?
 JL
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 --
 
   The Smokehouse,
   6 Whitwell Road,
   Norwich,  NR1 4HB
   England.
 
   Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
   Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk
 
   --
 
 

[LUTE] Re: Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten

[Jarosław Lipski]

Bill,

This portrait was painted by Antoine Pesne (1683-1757) 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_Pesne
Symbolism in art was used since ancient times. Baroque period is no exception, 
however if a painter intended some kind of an allegory it would be more 
pronaunced and it wouldn't concern just one detail. At least I wouldn't need to 
use  a magnifying glass or a computer to see a small element that no one 
normally seems to notice. For me it rather looks just  like a portrait of a 
noble lady. Her instrument is surely a little bit unusual, but it could be 
explained in some ways, as we try to.

All the best

Jaroslaw


Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez William Samson w dniu 19 lip 2012, o godz. 22:32:

 Looks like eight double courses on the petit jeu and another four double 
 diapasons.  The red (loaded?) strings start at the third course, suggesting 
 that it had a low pitch.
  
 The first course seems to start some distance away from the edge of the 
 fingerboard  at the nut, but passes closer to the edge where the neck meets 
 the body.  It also attaches near to the extreme end of the bridge.
  
 It's not any 'standard' lute type as far as I can see.  I'm puzzled.  It's a 
 pity we can't see enough of the lute to count the pegs.
  
 Could there be any symbolism involved in the two empty grooves?
  
 What is the date of this painting?
  
 Bill
  
 PS  Notice how the neck strap attaches at the neck end of the body of the 
 lute, rather than at the pegbox.
 
 From: Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
 Sent: Thursday, 19 July 2012, 20:45
 Subject: [LUTE] Eleonore von Schlieben-Sanditten
 
 here is a link if interested
 http://uploads7.wikipaintings.org/images/antoine-pesne/portrait-of-eleonore-louise-albertine-comtesse-von-schlieben-sanditten-freifrau-von-keyserlingk.jpg
 
 JL
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 


--

[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes

[Jarosław Lipski]

Dear Mathias,

 They add ... a kind of a different string of ore (quandam aliam [chordam]
 .. adjiciunt aeneam) clearly says, the added string is made of ore (which
 might imply bronze). No other material is involved.
 

The word Ore doesn't point to either bronze or brass. We can only guess what 
Tinctoris meant. However one has to consider a historical evidence. Both brass 
and bronze are copper alloys, the main difference being  a zinc or tin 
addition. Understanding of making these alloys evolved greatly from ancient 
times. Early brasses were made by smelting zinc-rich copper ores. Later the 
cementation process was used which involves deliberate production from metallic 
copper and zinc minerals. This was not achieved easily though, because of some 
problems with melting zinc metal. Brasses from the times of Tinctoris weren't 
exactly the same alloys as contemporary ones. They contained several other 
minerals and percentage of zinc was lower then now. The problem with definition 
applies even more to bronzes from the past and in consequence museums prefer to 
use cautious term copper alloy instead. There is a 12th c. Gloucester 
candlestick in bronze which contains a mixture of copper, zinc, ti!
 n, arsenic, iron, antimony, nickel, lead and some other metals and this 
confirms how difficult it is to name bronze or brass objects from the past.
Shortly, in case of musical strings I would consider historical evidence rather 
then a translation from Latin. The evidence suggests that for making musical 
strings most commonly iron, brass, silver and gold was used. Bronze strings in 
fact were used later for harpsichords, mandolins and low register of pianos. In 
general bronze is hard and brittle and these qualities don't make it perfect 
for a production of thin lute strings. All in all I would translate the word we 
are discussing as Brass.


 Adding to the lowest string another that accords with it in the octave
 (gravissimae quandam aliam ei per diapason consonantem adjiciunt) implies
 that the added string is not lower than the lowest string because otherwise
 the lowest string wouldn't be the lowest string. So the added string is an
 octave string, sounding the upper octave.
 
 You may say it is strange or difficult or very unusual, and that's alright
 with me. All I mean to say is that Tinctoris' wording leaves no doubt about
 the meaning of his words.

I can read Latin, but am not a Latin scholar, so this is why I asked if there 
is anyone on the list who is a specialist in this language. However if you feel 
very confident I can trust you in this matter.  The only thing that is 
difficult for me to accept in the result of your translation is the fact that 
it is not a practical solution. Can you imagine playing such an instrument? 
Some people complain about octave stringing on instruments equipped with gut 
only saying that it ruins voice leading, so how it would be possible to play a 
tenor or alto voice crossing 2 addjacent courses - one with unison guts and the 
other with a mixture of gut and wire in octaves!!! I won't even mention 
problems with intonation and frets. It sounds like a nightmare to me. I am 
sorry, but it is very difficult to find any logic in this arrangement. 
Therefore I tend to think we are missing something in the interpretation of 
Tinctoris's words, or he didn't express himself clearly.

Best wishes

Jaroslaw





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes

[Jarosław Lipski]

Yes, they are, however they weren't available at the time I was looking for 
them (the reason as mentioned before).
I have no knowledge if Kurschner resumed a production of LK and LS.

JL


Wiadomość napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 12 lip 2012, o godz. 08:34:

 
   Well, Luxlines are still advertised on Kurscher's website
 
   MH
   --- On Wed, 11/7/12, JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote:
 
 From: JarosAA'aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 11 July, 2012, 16:48
 
   Oh yes, that's another type of strings with a wire embedded. Thanks for
   reminding me. I haven't tried them though, so wouldn't like to comment
   how it's different from gimped gut. The only thing is that Kurschner
   stopped making Demifille, Tigerlines and Luxlines as far as I know,
   because they had too many complaints about the quality.
   JL
   WiadomoAP:A| napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 11 lip 2012, o godz.
   17:29:
 Kurschner (in Europe) makes 'Luxline' strings described below:
 
 LK, LS Luxline
 The Luxline is a string especially designed by us to give an even
   transition between plain gut and wound strings, similar to an open
   wound string in function. It does away with the inherent problems of
   openwound strings because the wire is embedded in the gut, giving a
   relatively smooth surface, thereby relieving bowing and left hand
   difficulties. Suitable for bowed and plucked instruments and here
   especially as diapasons on Theorbo, Chitarrone and Archiliuto. Luxlines
   with solid silver wire are somewhat brighter than those with copper
   wire, but only available up to 1,60 mm equivalent diameter.
 
 MH
 
 
 --- On Wed, 11/7/12, JarosA^3aw Lipski [1]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
   wrote:
 
 From: JarosA^3aw Lipski [2]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes
 To: [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 11 July, 2012, 14:26
 
 I am afraid I agree with Ron. Tinctoris tells us about the German
   invention of brass strings which were added to enhance the sonority. He
   doesn't give precise instructions on how it was done, so it can be
   interpreted in 3 ways (as I wrote before). BTW,  Ore is not equal to
   brass. Ore means Calamine and only with a copper addition it gives a
   proper brass. However Tinctoris probably had brass in mind when writing
   ore.
 Gimped gut is not exactly the same as gut on metal core. I won't
   discuss gimped strings in detail as the full info is available at Gamut
   website [4]http://gamutmusic.squarespace.com/gimped-gut/ ,but gimped
   means that the wire is twisted with gut. The other type could have a
   metal core and gut twisted on brass. In this case a wire wouldn't be
   visible at all unlike gimped gut which gives a barber-pole or
   candy-stripe appearance. It would only enhance the mass of a string,
   diminish its diameter and add to sonority. Unfortunately no one makes
   this type of strings in Europe (as David mentioned).
 I think it could be beneficial to ask a Latin expert on exact meaning
   of Tinctoris's text.
 
 All the best
 
 Jaroslaw
 
 
 WiadomoAP:A| napisana przez Mathias RAP:sel w dniu 11 lip 2012, o
   godz. 14:11:
 
 Thirdly, as I mentioned earlier, a translation from original Latin
   text doesn't give
 a clear idea whether Tinctoris writes about plain wire, gimped
   gut, or wire used
 as a core for a gut string.
 
 The text is pretty clear IMO. It says they added an octave string
   of ore (i.e. bronze) to their lowest course (i.e. 5th). Plain metal,
   neither gimped gut nor wire used as a core for a gut string (which is
   pretty much the same, if I'm not mistaken).
 
 That may not imply, of course, that the author Tintoris was right.
   I for one, though, tend to believe him.
 
 Mathias
 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 
   --
 
   --
 
 References
 
   1. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
   2. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
   3. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. http://gamutmusic.squarespace.com/gimped-gut/
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 

[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes

[Jarosław Lipski]

I wasn't questioning that. Obviously most of us know when octave stringing was 
introduced and what was the cause of this invention. In spite some people 
complained it was finally accepted. However we are talking here of another 
obstacle in attaining smooth transition between treble and bass which could 
really hinder any proper voice leading at all. A thin metal string has such a 
different tonal qualities from a thick gut that no matter how plucked it will 
stick out braking a counterpoint. I doubt very much if anyone would be able to 
play contrapunctal music from times of Tinctoris on an instrument strung that 
way. As said before I don't even mention practical issues of this setting like 
intonation, frets, etc.
To your quote I'd say that the old ones had as good ears as we do, so it's not 
a safe guide to assume they were handicap in this matter and didn't bother 
about voice-leading. 
If you say that everything in Tinctoris text is clear, please speak for 
yourself as there are some people like myself that have  doubts on whether it 
makes any musical sense.

Jaroslaw




Wiadomość napisana przez Monica Hall w dniu 12 lip 2012, o godz. 18:38:

 matter.  The only thing
 that is difficult for me to accept in the result of your translation is
 the fact that it is not a practical solution. Can you imagine playing such
 an instrument? Some people complain about octave stringing on instruments
 equipped with gut only saying that it ruins voice leading, so how it would
 be possible to play a tenor or alto voice crossing 2 addjacent courses -
 one with unison guts and the other with a mixture of gut and wire in
 octaves!!! I won't even mention problems with intonation and frets. It
 sounds like a nightmare to me. I am sorry, but it is very difficult to
 find any logic in this arrangement. Therefore I tend to think we are
 missing something in the interpretation of Tinctoris's words, or he didn't
 express himself clearly.
 
 For what its worth I'll stick my oar (or ore) in and say that some people
 today may complain that octave stringing ruins the voice leading - but there
 is very little doubt that plucked string instruments were strung in octaves.
 People in the past may have had no choice in the matter as the alternative
 may have been even worse.
 Octave doubling and voice leading is  a major problem on the baroque guitar
 for players today but players in the past may not have found it a problem.
 As the distinguished musicalogist  Howard Mayer Brown said   What we may 
 think sounds best or right or most musical is not a safe guide to what 
 was done in the past.  (My favourite quote).
 Surely the only thing that is not clear in Tinctoris' comment is how exactly 
 the strings he refers to were actually made or what they consisted of.
 
 Monica
 
 
 
 
 
 Best wishes
 
 Jaroslaw
 
 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 

[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes

[Jarosław Lipski]

Ron,

I have to stress that I am not saying that proper voice leading precludes use 
of octave stringing. Some of my lutes are strung in octaves and it is not a big 
problem providing that the proper type of strings is selected. I dislike bland, 
insipide music too. However there are some limitations in choosing strings for 
a lute. Unfortunately being immersed in our modern world we can easily forget 
about the broader context  of the music we would like to play. It is a matter 
of esthetics. We look for a variety, but there is a question of what it means 
for us. Variety of what? And what people from the past were looking for?
I would like to quote here an excerpt from Andreas Schlegel's book Die Laute 
in Europa 2 (p.36): From the Middle Ages and into the age of Enlightenment in 
the 18th century, the foundation for every kind of creative work, and for 
cognition itself, was seen to be expressed in saying - God has arranged all 
things by measure, number, and weight…The choice of proportions was not a 
matter of chance - they were always designed against the background of what was 
supposed to be the divine order. It has its consequences no matter what our 
believes are. A lute is no exception. It shows that people that lived in the 
past had different mentality. Can we ignore this fact? It is not a matter of 
reading musicilogical books. It is enough to read any introduction to an old 
manuscript or tutorial. Lets have a look at just one example. Miss Mary 
Burwell's instructions for the lute. When reading this kind of texts we tend to 
skip to the more practical part - the very instructions. The rest o!
 f the text is commonly ignored as it sounds as …bla, bla, bla..to our modern 
ears. However it says something about those people that made instruments, and 
composed a music that we try to interpret. Chapter 1 is titled The origin of 
the lute, or the derivation of the lute, but if you'd expect a bit of real 
history you will be disappointed. You will read that the Lute hath his 
derivation from Heaven. What strikes me though is that she repeats the word 
harmony notoriously. This proves what Andreas wrote - people of the past 
cared much more about the harmony and proportion then us.
Can one ignore the context? For me it would be like wanting to play Flamenco, 
but hating the sound of a guitar. Unfortunately guitar is a part of Flamenco. 
Sorry for this simplification, but what I would like to say is that a lute is 
not a piano. You can't use banjo strings for trebles, piano strings for basses 
and say: hey, lets play Bach. I mean, you can, but your music will be lacking 
something…quite a lot. So yes, I agree, there had to have been an elegant 
implementation of the mixed stringing idea, but adding metal octaves to gut 
fundamentals is not the one we are looking for IMHO . We just don't know what 
it was but the whole discussion started from that point. 
Sorry for the lengthy post.

All the best

Jaroslaw



Wiadomość napisana przez Ron Andrico w dniu 12 lip 2012, o godz. 19:55:

   This has been an interesting discussion with good points made by all. I
   think there are so many more questions to consider when approaching
   15th century music than later periods, but it's still all about the
   nature of musical sound and human reactions to it.  One thing we know
   for certain is that most of the music that was heard was not written
   down.
   I think some of our ideas about instruments and interpretation have
   been skewed in odd ways as they spew forth from the wasp's nest of the
   academic world.  For instance, the idea of octave stringing and voice
   leading: If our understanding of how historical sounds were produced
   and received in the 15th century reach us in the form of a thesis
   authored by a musicologist trained in the 'great' composers of the 18th
   and 19th centuries, and tried out at the piano, then we're bound to be
   told that 'proper' voice-leading precludes the barbaric use of octave
   strings.  On the other hand, we hear from other musicologists that the
   use of instruments in the 15th century chanson is wrong, mainly because
   they have these ideas about vocalization they'd like to try out and
   they need funding for a recording project.
   I resist the idea that we should be bland in our interpretations of
   15th century music, simply because perspective in painting wasn't fully
   developed, and we should not be too conservative in our choices of
   instruments and stringing.  Two things of which we can be certain are
   1) there was variety in music, and 2) they weren't planning on us
   reviving it, and thus did not write down concise instructions. Jaroslaw
   aptly points out the serious tuning problems that result from mixing
   wire and gut strings.  People had better hearing in the 15th century
   than we do today, and they probably did not put up with bad tuning or a
   jarring mixture of string sounds.  Whatever Tinctoris was describing,
   there had 

[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes

[Jarosław Lipski]

Firstly we are not talking about pre-1300 musical wire mythology. Secondly I am 
not in the position to question authorities like Hamilton. As a specialist he 
must have been aware of the problem with lubricating. If he writes that drawing 
process has been invented in Nuremberg in the 14th century I tend to believe 
him. This information is also consistent with the passage from Tinctoris who 
talks about German invention of brass strings.
Thirdly, as I mentioned earlier, a translation from original Latin text doesn't 
give a clear idea whether Tinctoris writes about plain wire, gimped gut, or 
wire used as a core for a gut string. 

JL


Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 10 lip 2012, o godz. 23:53:

 It is not as simple as that. The die has to be lubricated to pass heated 
 wire, and as I recall brass was too hot for the die, until the discovery that 
 urine could be used for that process.
 I recall that this is the main argument against pre-1300 musical wire 
 mythology in general.
 
 It took some time to develop wire that was sufficiently uniform for musical 
 purposes (i.e. used by itself, without gut), probably at least another 100+ 
 years.
 
 And if remember correctly the musical wire has to be brass, bronze is too 
 soft and doesn't work.
 RT
 
 On 7/10/2012 5:25 PM, Jarosław Lipski wrote:
 A contemporary metallurgist probably knows mainly modern techniques.
 This is the quotation from The Early English Copper and Brass Industries to 
 1800 by H. Hamilton:
 
 Up to the Elizabethan period, copper or brass wire was drawn by hand in 
 Britain by a very primitive process. One method consisted of two men seated 
 on swings facing one another with a narrow strip of brass fastened to a belt 
 round each man's waist. By propelling the swings with their feet they could 
 swing apart and gradually produce a crude type of wire by stretching the 
 brass. (15) Wire was also made by the equally laborious process of 
 hammering, until that was superseded by drawing; this latter process is 
 believed to have been invented at Nuremberg in the 14th Century. At first, 
 drawn wire was pulled through a die by hand, but later by machinery driven 
 by water- or horse-power.
 
 Regards
 
 JL
 
 Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 10 lip 2012, o godz. 19:55:
 
 The way it was explained to me by a metallurgist: drawing brass requires 
 lube that wouldn't burn at the teperature necessary to draw. And that 
 lagged a bit.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Jul 10, 2012, at 1:08 PM, Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote:
 
 It was not a matter of lubrication but rather problems with melting zinc 
 metal. However brass wire was used in England during Shakespearean times 
 and in some places even much earlier. It was produced from calamine (found 
 in the Mendip hills in Somerset). The full info you can find at 
 http://www.copper.org/publications/newsletters/innovations/2000/01-brasses/history_brass.html
 
 All best
 
 JL
 
 Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 10 lip 2012, o godz. 17:40:
 
 much later, I think. the lubrication essential for drawing  brass wire 
 wasn't invented until a  couple of centuries after 1300's.
 RT
 
 7/10/2012 9:26 AM, theoj89...@aol.com wrote:
 Brass strings (or an alloy closer to bronze) were used on irish and 
 scottish harps from the 1300s onward. It would not be surprising that a 
 lute player might possibly use them for bass strings. I shudder to think 
 what tension they might have pulled on those strings, though.  trj
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: alexander voka...@verizon.net
 To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Ron Andrico 
 praelu...@hotmail.com; Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com
 Sent: Mon, Jul 9, 2012 9:37 am
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes - testament of 
 loading
 
 
 
 t does translate as loading?, rather then a separate strings, which 
 appears to
 rove Mimmo Peruffo's insight.
 lexander r.
 
 n Mon, 09 Jul 2012 14:00:00 +0100
 Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
 I am not a Latin scholar but the relevant passage reads as follows:
  His autem chordis ex arietum intestinus communiter factis: sunt  qui
 germanica inventione:  gravissime quandam aliam ei per diapason 
 consonantem
 adjiciunt eneam:  Qua concentus non modo itidem fortior. verum etiam 
 longe
 suavior efficitur.
  Perhaps some one who knows some  Latin could comment.
  Monica
- Original Message -
 From: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com
 To: s.wa...@ntlworld.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 1:32 PM
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes
 Hello Stuart:
 Since no one else seems to have answered your question, I'll contribute
 a few words.
 Tinctoris' mention of brass octave strings has been repeated
 willy-nilly throughout the spate of performer's guides to early music
 that have been published over the last twenty years or so, and it is
 even found

[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes

[Jarosław Lipski]

I am afraid I agree with Ron. Tinctoris tells us about the German invention of 
brass strings which were added to enhance the sonority. He doesn't give precise 
instructions on how it was done, so it can be interpreted in 3 ways (as I wrote 
before). BTW,  Ore is not equal to brass. Ore means Calamine and only with a 
copper addition it gives a proper brass. However Tinctoris probably had brass 
in mind when writing ore.
Gimped gut is not exactly the same as gut on metal core. I won't discuss gimped 
strings in detail as the full info is available at Gamut website 
http://gamutmusic.squarespace.com/gimped-gut/ ,but gimped means that the wire 
is twisted with gut. The other type could have a metal core and gut twisted on 
brass. In this case a wire wouldn't be visible at all unlike gimped gut which 
gives a barber-pole or candy-stripe appearance. It would only enhance the mass 
of a string, diminish its diameter and add to sonority. Unfortunately no one 
makes this type of strings in Europe (as David mentioned).
I think it could be beneficial to ask a Latin expert on exact meaning of 
Tinctoris's text.

All the best

Jaroslaw


Wiadomość napisana przez Mathias Rösel w dniu 11 lip 2012, o godz. 14:11:

 Thirdly, as I mentioned earlier, a translation from original Latin text 
 doesn't give
 a clear idea whether Tinctoris writes about plain wire, gimped gut, or wire 
 used
 as a core for a gut string.
 
 The text is pretty clear IMO. It says they added an octave string of ore 
 (i.e. bronze) to their lowest course (i.e. 5th). Plain metal, neither gimped 
 gut nor wire used as a core for a gut string (which is pretty much the same, 
 if I'm not mistaken).
 
 That may not imply, of course, that the author Tintoris was right. I for one, 
 though, tend to believe him.
 
 Mathias
 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes

[Jarosław Lipski]

Mathias,

 
 
 Add is clear enough a word IMO.
 

Add is clear but we don't know what exactly to add and what way. It could be 
either upper or lower octave. If lower, it would be a very strange setting 
having plain brass string fundamental and gut octave. If upper, it could be 
quite difficult to play in tune having two very different strings (wire and 
gut) in a course especially that an octave would have to be made from a very 
thin wire. This is why some people think about addition of a brass wire to a 
gut string. How it was done we just don't know.

 
 We'll never know, I'm afraid, what he had in mind. As a matter of fact, he
 wrote (a)eneam, and that is ore (bronze), not brass. Brazen would in Latin
 have been aurichalcam.
 

Bronze strings? Very unusal…


 
 
 I'm sorry my attempt of a translation didn't satisfy you.
 

I didn't say I'm not satisfied with your translation, and am very sorry if you 
understood it that way. It is rather a matter of interpretation of Tinctoris's 
words which is quite difficult IMHO. But obviously either of us could be wrong. 
It's just a shear speculation.
I wish you a good day

Jaroslaw


 Mathias
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 


--

[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes

[Jarosław Lipski]

Oh yes, that's another type of strings with a wire embedded. Thanks for 
reminding me. I haven't tried them though, so wouldn't like to comment how it's 
different from gimped gut. The only thing is that Kurschner stopped making 
Demifille, Tigerlines and Luxlines as far as I know, because they had too many 
complaints about the quality.

JL


Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Martyn Hodgson w dniu 11 lip 2012, o godz. 17:29:

 Kurschner (in Europe) makes 'Luxline' strings described below:
  
 LK, LS Luxline
 The Luxline is a string especially designed by us to give an even transition 
 between plain gut and wound strings, similar to an open wound string in 
 function. It does away with the inherent problems of openwound strings 
 because the wire is embedded in the gut, giving a relatively smooth surface, 
 thereby relieving bowing and left hand difficulties. Suitable for bowed and 
 plucked instruments and here especially as diapasons on Theorbo, Chitarrone 
 and Archiliuto. Luxlines with solid silver wire are somewhat brighter than 
 those with copper wire, but only available up to 1,60 mm equivalent diameter.
  
 MH
 
 
 --- On Wed, 11/7/12, Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote:
 
 From: Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Wednesday, 11 July, 2012, 14:26
 
 I am afraid I agree with Ron. Tinctoris tells us about the German invention 
 of brass strings which were added to enhance the sonority. He doesn't give 
 precise instructions on how it was done, so it can be interpreted in 3 ways 
 (as I wrote before). BTW,  Ore is not equal to brass. Ore means Calamine 
 and only with a copper addition it gives a proper brass. However Tinctoris 
 probably had brass in mind when writing ore.
 Gimped gut is not exactly the same as gut on metal core. I won't discuss 
 gimped strings in detail as the full info is available at Gamut website 
 http://gamutmusic.squarespace.com/gimped-gut/ ,but gimped means that the wire 
 is twisted with gut. The other type could have a metal core and gut twisted 
 on brass. In this case a wire wouldn't be visible at all unlike gimped gut 
 which gives a barber-pole or candy-stripe appearance. It would only enhance 
 the mass of a string, diminish its diameter and add to sonority. 
 Unfortunately no one makes this type of strings in Europe (as David 
 mentioned).
 I think it could be beneficial to ask a Latin expert on exact meaning of 
 Tinctoris's text.
 
 All the best
 
 Jaroslaw
 
 
 Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Mathias Rösel w dniu 11 lip 2012, o godz. 14:11:
 
  Thirdly, as I mentioned earlier, a translation from original Latin text 
  doesn't give
  a clear idea whether Tinctoris writes about plain wire, gimped gut, or 
  wire used
  as a core for a gut string.
  
  The text is pretty clear IMO. It says they added an octave string of ore 
  (i.e. bronze) to their lowest course (i.e. 5th). Plain metal, neither 
  gimped gut nor wire used as a core for a gut string (which is pretty much 
  the same, if I'm not mistaken).
  
  That may not imply, of course, that the author Tintoris was right. I for 
  one, though, tend to believe him.
  
  Mathias
  
  
  
  
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  
 
 
 


--

[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes

[Jarosław Lipski]

 
 One other interpretation is that it could be a set of sympathetic
 strings, that are tuned in higher octaves to the 5th, 4th and 3rd and lower 
 octaves to the 2nd and 1st main
 courses.
 

It is not very clear for me what you mean. Some more explanation, please?


 Well, it's not really that unusual: phosphor bronze can be drawn into
 wire. It is used, for example, in lower registers of harpsichords,
 because of its slightly greater (than brass) mass. Moreover, bronze in
 old times was not just combination of copper and tin but many different
 alloys, some of which could be attributed to either brass or bronze.
 
 

Yes, I realize there are bronze strings in use in our times, however I am not 
sure about bronze wire technologie in 14th -15th century. Wasn't bronze too 
brittle then to make a thin musical string? It was used later for harpsichords 
and mandolins, but I wouldn't be so sure about lutes at that time.

JL



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes

[Jarosław Lipski]

A contemporary metallurgist probably knows mainly modern techniques. 
This is the quotation from The Early English Copper and Brass Industries to 
1800 by H. Hamilton:

Up to the Elizabethan period, copper or brass wire was drawn by hand in Britain 
by a very primitive process. One method consisted of two men seated on swings 
facing one another with a narrow strip of brass fastened to a belt round each 
man's waist. By propelling the swings with their feet they could swing apart 
and gradually produce a crude type of wire by stretching the brass. (15) Wire 
was also made by the equally laborious process of hammering, until that was 
superseded by drawing; this latter process is believed to have been invented at 
Nuremberg in the 14th Century. At first, drawn wire was pulled through a die by 
hand, but later by machinery driven by water- or horse-power.

Regards

JL

Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 10 lip 2012, o godz. 19:55:

 The way it was explained to me by a metallurgist: drawing brass requires lube 
 that wouldn't burn at the teperature necessary to draw. And that lagged a bit.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Jul 10, 2012, at 1:08 PM, Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl wrote:
 
 It was not a matter of lubrication but rather problems with melting zinc 
 metal. However brass wire was used in England during Shakespearean times and 
 in some places even much earlier. It was produced from calamine (found in 
 the Mendip hills in Somerset). The full info you can find at 
 http://www.copper.org/publications/newsletters/innovations/2000/01-brasses/history_brass.html
 
 All best
 
 JL
 
 Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 10 lip 2012, o godz. 17:40:
 
 much later, I think. the lubrication essential for drawing  brass wire 
 wasn't invented until a  couple of centuries after 1300's.
 RT
 
 7/10/2012 9:26 AM, theoj89...@aol.com wrote:
 Brass strings (or an alloy closer to bronze) were used on irish and 
 scottish harps from the 1300s onward. It would not be surprising that a 
 lute player might possibly use them for bass strings. I shudder to think 
 what tension they might have pulled on those strings, though.  trj
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: alexander voka...@verizon.net
 To: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk
 Cc: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com; 
 Stuart Walsh s.wa...@ntlworld.com
 Sent: Mon, Jul 9, 2012 9:37 am
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes - testament of 
 loading
 
 
 
 t does translate as loading?, rather then a separate strings, which 
 appears to
 rove Mimmo Peruffo's insight.
 lexander r.
 
 n Mon, 09 Jul 2012 14:00:00 +0100
 Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
 I am not a Latin scholar but the relevant passage reads as follows:
  His autem chordis ex arietum intestinus communiter factis: sunt  qui
 germanica inventione:  gravissime quandam aliam ei per diapason consonantem
 adjiciunt eneam:  Qua concentus non modo itidem fortior. verum etiam longe
 suavior efficitur.
  Perhaps some one who knows some  Latin could comment.
  Monica
- Original Message -
 From: Ron Andrico praelu...@hotmail.com
 To: s.wa...@ntlworld.com; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 1:32 PM
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes
 Hello Stuart:
 Since no one else seems to have answered your question, I'll contribute
 a few words.
 Tinctoris' mention of brass octave strings has been repeated
 willy-nilly throughout the spate of performer's guides to early music
 that have been published over the last twenty years or so, and it is
 even found in Matthew Spring's history of the lute.  The information,
 as near as I can judge, seems to be derived from an article Anthony
 Baines, Fifteenth-Century Instruments in Tinctoris's _De Inventione et
 Usu Musicae_, Galpin Society Journal III, p19-26 (1950).  I have this
 article lying about somewhere and have quoted from it myself, but I am
 told some interpretive questions have been raised concerning Baines'
 translation of the passage, quoted here:
 And further, to provide a stronger sound, an additional string may be
 conjoined to any string and tuned to the octave, though not when
 conjoined
 to the first string.  The strings are generally of Ram's gut, but there
 is
 also the German invention in which another [set of] brass string[s] is
 added, tuned very deeply through an octave.
 Practically speaking, there is some ambiguity here, and the reference
 could just as well mean that brass was used in the lower octave rather
 than the upper.  Then there is the possibility that what we see here is
 an early mention of brass overspun strings.  I'm sure some string
 enthusiasts on this discussion list would have a thing or two to say
 about that.
 I hope this helps.
 RA
 Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2012 22:52:51 +0100
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 From: s.wa...@ntlworld.com
 Subject: [LUTE] brass strings on 15th century lutes
 
 (perhaps this has been discussed 

[LUTE] Re: brass strings on 15th century lutes

[Jarosław Lipski]

The quotation doesn't seem to be very precise on the way a wire was used. It 
could be a plain wire (rather unlikely), gimped gut (more likely), or gut on a 
plain wire (quite possible). The last option could make the most satisfactory 
solution to bass strings problem.  On the other hand gimped strings are just 
one step from open wound basses.

All the best

Jaroslaw


Wiadomość napisana przez Mathias Rösel w dniu 9 lip 2012, o godz. 19:38:

 His autem chordis ex arietum intestinus communiter factis: sunt  qui
 germanica
 inventione:  gravissim(a)e quandam aliam ei per diapason consonantem
 adjiciunt
 (a)eneam:  Qua concentus non modo itidem fortior. verum etiam longe
 suavior
 efficitur.
 
 If gravissime reads gravissimae and eneam reads aeneam, I'd render it as
 follows:
 
 To these strings, however, that are generally made of rams' guts, some,
 following a German invention, add to the lowest (string) a kind of a
 different string of ore which accords with it in in the octave. By this
 (added string) the harmony likewise gets not only stronger but also a good
 deal more pleasant.
 
 What I understand is this: Strings in general were made of sheep gut. Some
 players in Tinctoris' days added metal strings to their lowest courses (i.
 e. 5th courses), sounding the upper octave, so as to enhance and improve the
 sonority.
 
 Aenëus means ore in general, and bronze in particular. 
 
 Other metals: Coppery is cyprius, brazen is aurichalcus (orichalcus), iron
 is ferreus.
 
 Mathias
 
 
 
  as near as I can judge, seems to be derived from an article Anthony
  Baines, Fifteenth-Century Instruments in Tinctoris's _De Inventione
 et
  Usu Musicae_, Galpin Society Journal III, p19-26 (1950).  I have this
  article lying about somewhere and have quoted from it myself, but I am
  told some interpretive questions have been raised concerning Baines'
  translation of the passage, quoted here:
  And further, to provide a stronger sound, an additional string may be
  conjoined to any string and tuned to the octave, though not when
  conjoined
  to the first string.  The strings are generally of Ram's gut, but
 there
  is
  also the German invention in which another [set of] brass string[s] is
  added, tuned very deeply through an octave.
 
 
 (perhaps this has been discussed before)
 Tinctoris (c.1480) commented on the German invention of brass
  strings
 [on lutes] which were added 'tuned very deeply through an octave' by
 means of which 'the sound is rendered not only stronger, but also
  very
 much sweeter'. (Keith Polk, German Instrumental Music of the Middle
 Ages p.22, 1992).
 Polk, somewhere else in the same book, talks about the 'ever
 reliable
 Tinctoris'. I've never heard of wire-strung lutes (apart from
 lute-bodied citterns in the late 18th century).
 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE] Re: YouTube going too far?

[Jarosław Lipski]

There are some alternatives though. Has anyone encountered similar problems 
with Vimeo?

Regards

Jaroslaw


Wiadomość napisana przez David Smith w dniu 7 lip 2012, o godz. 10:19:

 It will end with the death of the internet or ... 
 Definition: The internet is a semi-autonomous intelligence with the
 intellectual capacity of a one-eyed newt. It is in the process of evolving
 and will either die out, as other deficient species has, or it will evolve
 into something useful, intelligent and mature. Until then all species
 interacting with it will be in intense pain interspersed with occasional
 moments of euphoria. The only risk is that it will evolve to the point where
 our species is no longer needed... is that good or bad
 
 Regards
 David
 
 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
 Of Daniel F. Heiman
 Sent: Friday, July 06, 2012 6:57 PM
 To: 'David Tayler'; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: YouTube going too far?
 
 This process is amazingly intrusive.
 
 As part of my ongoing effort to post video from the recent LSA Summer
 Seminar on the LuteSocietyofAmerica channel on YouTube, I posted privately a
 section of raw video from the Participants' Concert so the performers could
 audition it prior to editing and posting it.  Note that there is no text in
 the video, since I have not edited in the titles, and there is no meaningful
 text on the descriptive page, only the filename:  20120629-01-Kathryn, and
 the note that this is unedited video of their two lute songs.   For this
 unlisted video, I have been flagged for matched third party content.
 When I check on the reason, I learn that:  
 
 Your video may include the following copyrighted content:  DOWLAND: LADY,
 IF YOU SO, musical composition administered by:  One or more music
 publishing rights collecting societies  
 
 The piece named is in fact the **second** song in the file.   So someone has
 been paid to create pattern matching software that checks the whole of every
 video posted and to load a truly astounding number of sequences of notes
 into the system.  Where will this end?
 
 Scary.
 
 Daniel Heiman 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
 Of David Tayler
 Sent: Friday, July 06, 2012 18:09
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: TRe: YouTube going too far?
 
I'm sorry to hear that. Unfortunately, they may claim that they
   actually own it (and then they are real trolls, after all). Then you
   have very little recourse.
   --- On Thu, 7/5/12, Sauvage Valery sauvag...@orange.fr wrote:
 
 From: Sauvage Valery sauvag...@orange.fr
 Subject: [LUTE] TRe: YouTube going too far?
 To: 'Lute List' lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Thursday, July 5, 2012, 7:55 AM
 
   I had often the same problem (Dowland, Narvaez, Milan, Bach...). I just
   disput the claim and usually they automatically withdrawn.
   Last one was about la Cancion del Emperador... I disput the claim (by
   Harry Fox Cie) but they maintain it, I had to delete the video, then to
   post
   it again, they again claim on it and I argue in the disput with the
   fact it
   was published in Spain in 1538 (so public domain), that I played
   myself,
   from the original source and I add the following text :
   Music and lyrics published in 1922 or earlier are in the Public Domain
   in
   the United States. No one can claim ownership of a song in the public
   domain. Public Domain music and songs may be used by anyone . . .
   without
   permission, without royalties, and without any limitations whatsoever.
   And sayed that the Harry fox claim was an abuse of the copyright laws.
   (I find the text quoted here :
   [1]http://www.pdinfo.com/ )
   I think it is important to write : Public domain, original source,
   and
   to mention the date of publication of the music played (and country
   too).
   Valery
   -Message d'origine-
   De : [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
   De la part
   de David van Ooijen Envoye : jeudi 5 juillet 2012 16:15 A :
   [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Objet : [LUTE] Re: YouTube going too far?
   On 5 July 2012 16:05, Ron Andrico [5]praelu...@hotmail.com wrote:
 To make a long story short, the only words Youtube needs to see in
 response is that the music is in the Public Domain, or the person
 posting the music is the verified copyright holder.  The challenge is
 then automatically withdrawn.
   It is not. Because this is the second time YouTube challenges this
   particular (and not at all popular) video. I'm not in it for the money,
   but
   coorperation claiming Greensleeves simply feels wrong.
   I also post 'fingerstyle covers' of pop songs (I've just recorded
   Paradise
   by Sade, early music of sorts. I will upload later today).
   Obviously these are far more popular, and obviously there are copyright
   holders involved who claim their share. Fair 

[LUTE] Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted

[Jarosław Lipski]

Exactly!


Wiadomość napisana przez David Tayler w dniu 1 maj 2012, o godz. 18:02:

I have to say for me I think the available evidence points nowhere.
   People can't even agree on whether the pieces are playable on the lute,
   and not only that, playability is not an indicator of authorship or
   orchestration, so who cares? All this stuff about the original intent
   of the composer is really about the intent about the people who write
   the articles.
   Shorter Bach: Can't play it? Please practice. Don't like it? Make an
   arrangement.
   --- On Sun, 4/29/12, Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net wrote:
 
 From: Roman Turovsky r.turov...@verizon.net
 Subject: [LUTE] Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
 To: lutenet lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Date: Sunday, April 29, 2012, 7:42 PM
 
   Jarek,
   I thinks the available evidence pretty much points where Clive thinks
   it does, and I am inclined to agree with him, notwithstanding Vasily
   Antipov,
   an excellent Russian player who actually can perform Lute Suites as
   written (he knows no technical difficulties).
   The Lute Suites are simply not performable by an average professional
   player (unlike the rest of JSB's works), and that is the ultimate
   giveaway
   (besides being out of lutenistic character).
   RT
   From: JarosAA'aw Lipski [1]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
   Roman,
   I do not share your dislike for musicology. It pays really big service
   to all of us I suppose. It has its rules and  trespassing them creates
   the effect you are talking about. I am just saying that the available
   evidence on so called Lute Suites does not entitle us to make very
   definite statements that Bach never ever wrote anything with a lute in
   mind apart from 2 small movements in his Passions. It would be not too
   difficult to create a contradictory theory, but this kind of
   speculation seems to be rather a waste of time.
   JL
   WiadomoAAAe/= napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o
   godz. 23:01:
 a geetar then.
 Phrases like there is some likelihood that item X might very well
   could have been item Y
 may work in some musicological situations, but not in the case of our
   Lute Suites.
 RT
 
 - Original Message - From: JarosAA'aw Lipski
   [2]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
 To: [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:50 PM
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Re: Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
 
 
 but in this case a spade is not a spade :)
 JL
 
 
 WiadomoAAAe/= napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o
   godz. 22:32:
 
 Yes,
 but -
 sometimes we have to give up the musicological mumbo-jumbo,
 and just call a spade a spade.
 RT
 
 - Original Message - From: JarosAA'aw Lipski
   [4]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
 To: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:24 PM
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
 
 
 Eugene,
 
 Well, saying that the evidence would be that Bach did not write
   any music specifically intended for solo lute sounds to me (do correct
   me if I'm wrong) a little bit like a definite statement or a  final
   argument, doesn't it? There is nothing wrong in having doubts and
   expressing them publicly, but making new theories is another matter. I
   greatly recommend David Ledbetters book Unaccompanied Bach (as
   mentioned) which deals with all available data concerning this subject
   in detail. There are many question marks and unfortunately no simple
   answers so far, I am afraid.
 However it can be agreed that there are no so called Bach lute
   suites if we understand them the same way that some guitarists used to
   believe in past, but then the question is what guitarist and how can we
   judge someones knowledge. It's much better to present  bare facts
   letting people decide what they can make of it, IMHO.
 My 2 cents
 
 Best regards
 
 Jaroslaw
 
 
 
 WiadomoAAAe/= napisana przez Braig, Eugene w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o
   godz. 22:01:
 
 I wholeheartedly agree, jl.  Fortunately, I don't believe the
   little article discussed here did make any such definitive statements.
   I think it did a fair job of presenting evidence with relative
   objectivity.
 
 Eugene
 
 From: [6]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[7]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
   on behalf of JarosAA'aw Lipski [[8]jaroslawlip...@wp.pl]
 Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:06 PM
 To: [9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [LUTE] Re:   Bach's Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
 
 Discussion is always a good thing, the problem begins when
   someone makes very definite statements like-  the evidence would be
   that Bach did not write any music specifically intended for solo lute
 -  or -You know what I am going to say nextaEURperhaps you
   should sit down
 I understand that it was addressed to guitar players, but still
   we need more evidence before trying to convince someone that A or B is
   true. Musicology is a tricky bussiness and there is a 

[LUTE] Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted

[Jarosław Lipski]

So do I. In most music written between 16-18 century one can find some kind of 
schemata that was popularly used, but Bach was incredibly creative in using it.
Besides, as someone told me long time ago:  there are no bad compositions, 
there are only poor performances :)
As for BWV 997 and 998 you can try David Ledbetter's Unaccompanied Bach (Yale 
University Press)
All the best

Jaroslaw


Wiadomość napisana przez Andreas Schroth w dniu 30 kwi 2012, o godz. 19:42:


   ./.
   I confess, I like all parts of all so called lute suites of Bach.
   Some of them belong to his absolute masterworks.
   (Short time ago someone in the list recommended a great scientific
   analaysis of importance of the fuges in BWV 997 and 998,
   but unfortunately i have forgotten the source (Please help!)
   Yours Andreas of Berlin
   (excuse my english please)
   --
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE] Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted

[Jarosław Lipski]

Roman,

Yes , no one questions that. Lute Suites are not well written for lute, for 
sure. Weather they are playable or not can be discussed. However we are not 
talking about this. The question is if Bach intended them to be performed on a 
lute. I can tell you something from my own experience. Many years ago when I 
studied in London there was a Polish composer who wanted to write a guitar 
piece which was commissioned for a special occasion. Because I was asked to 
perform it he consulted me several times on playability of some passages. In 
spite he was obviously aware of the range of classical guitar, the way he 
structured his music was very unintuitive.  If he hadn't had a guitarist to 
consult during a compositional process probably he would have written something 
unplayable for someone who would try to take the score literally. Now, could 
you imagine that Bach being probably one of the most prolific composer in 
history of music, but being mostly as we say nowadays a keyboard player !
 would have time to study possibilities of an instrument that he did not play 
himself? Possibly he knew the range of this instrument and how it sounds, but 
the idea that he would have cared about every note to be played comfortably on 
a lute seems to me not tenable. In fact it is quite possible that being fond of 
lute's sound (as we know from some writings and his love for lute-harpsichord 
and clavichord) and being asked by Mr Schouster he made an arrangement of his 
work with a real intention of editing it for lute players.
Anyway, it's just a speculation, but it shows that one can interpret the same 
data in many different ways. Until more evidence is found it is better to 
refrain from making up new theories, I suppose.
All best

JL


 isticWiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 30 kwi 2012, o godz. 04:42:

 Jarek,
 I thinks the available evidence pretty much points where Clive thinks it 
 does, and I am inclined to agree with him, notwithstanding Vasily Antipov,
 an excellent Russian player who actually can perform Lute Suites as written 
 (he knows no technical difficulties).
 The Lute Suites are simply not performable by an average professional 
 player (unlike the rest of JSB's works), and that is the ultimate giveaway
 (besides being out of lutenistic character).
 RT
 
 From: Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
 Roman,
 I do not share your dislike for musicology. It pays really big service to all 
 of us I suppose. It has its rules and  trespassing them creates the effect 
 you are talking about. I am just saying that the available evidence on so 
 called Lute Suites does not entitle us to make very definite statements that 
 Bach never ever wrote anything with a lute in mind apart from 2 small 
 movements in his Passions. It would be not too difficult to create a 
 contradictory theory, but this kind of speculation seems to be rather a waste 
 of time.
 JL
 
 Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o godz. 23:01:
 
 a geetar then.
 Phrases like there is some likelihood that item X might very well could 
 have been item Y
 may work in some musicological situations, but not in the case of our Lute 
 Suites.
 RT
 
 - Original Message - From: Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:50 PM
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
 
 
 but in this case a spade is not a spade :)
 JL
 
 
 Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:32:
 
 Yes,
 but -
 sometimes we have to give up the musicological mumbo-jumbo,
 and just call a spade a spade.
 RT
 
 - Original Message - From: Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:24 PM
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
 
 
 Eugene,
 
 Well, saying that the evidence would be that Bach did not write any 
 music specifically intended for solo lute sounds to me (do correct me if 
 I'm wrong) a little bit like a definite statement or a  final argument, 
 doesn't it? There is nothing wrong in having doubts and expressing them 
 publicly, but making new theories is another matter. I greatly recommend 
 David Ledbetters book Unaccompanied Bach (as mentioned) which deals 
 with all available data concerning this subject in detail. There are many 
 question marks and unfortunately no simple answers so far, I am afraid.
 However it can be agreed that there are no so called Bach lute suites if 
 we understand them the same way that some guitarists used to believe in 
 past, but then the question is what guitarist and how can we judge 
 someones knowledge. It's much better to present  bare facts letting 
 people decide what they can make of it, IMHO.
 My 2 cents
 
 Best regards
 
 Jaroslaw
 
 
 
 Wiadomość napisana przez Braig, Eugene w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:01:
 
 I wholeheartedly agree, jl.  Fortunately, I don't believe the little 
 article

[LUTE] Re: 4060

[Jarosław Lipski]

It was a reply to David's post (below). Notice that he mentions sharing costs 
which is definately reasonable. Photocopying is a work which has to be paid, 
however I have a feeling that sooner or later probably most of interesting 
manuscripts will be digitalised. We only discuss how it could be done.

jl


Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez Alan Hoyle w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:17:

 I do agree in principle with such sentiments, but, as Donna Stewart (a 
 librarian as well as a supreme interpreter of renaissance music for voice) 
 explained on the net a few months ago, the photographing (not to mention the 
 year-on-year conserving of these manuscripts, along with other aspects of 
 their management) costs an increasingly large amount of money - and at a time 
 when economic/fiscal pressures of public funds seem to be tightening focus on 
 what will bring a 'useful' financial return.
  
 Since, as lutenists, we have perversely chosen a non-commercial passion to 
 pursue, we should not expect the world to leap in and pander to it. We are 
 hugely fortunate already with the amount of tablature available for free via 
 Fronimo, Django  other sources. it ill behoves us to complain if a library 
 requires a contribution to its running costs to have access to its 
 manuscripts. Of course, if they find they can give it for free - so much the 
 better!
  
  
  
  
  
  
 2012/4/26 Jaros³aw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
 Hear, hear! Absolutely, manuscripts should be in the public domain and easily 
 available (at least in future).
 
 jl
 
 
 Wiadomo¶æ napisana przez David Tayler w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 02:38:
 
Since I'm a hippie and believe all music should be free, some good must
come from this.
However, since I run a group and believe people should be paid, why
don't you set up a PayPal donation event and I will be happy to chip
in. And I imagine others would as well.
I have often paid for mss to be scanned at libraries, knowing full well
that others would benefit from these mss being bumped to the head of
the inevitable line, to quote Dr. Blow.
All mss will be scanned, of course. Only when? I just wish it had all
been sooner before I ruined my eyes in the microfilm booth.
However, I think it would be nice to share the cost.
dt
 
--
 
 
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
 
 


--

[LUTE] Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted

[Jarosław Lipski]

Eugene,

Well, saying that the evidence would be that Bach did not write any music 
specifically intended for solo lute sounds to me (do correct me if I'm wrong) 
a little bit like a definite statement or a  final argument, doesn't it? There 
is nothing wrong in having doubts and expressing them publicly, but making new 
theories is another matter. I greatly recommend David Ledbetters book 
Unaccompanied Bach (as mentioned) which deals with all available data 
concerning this subject in detail. There are many question marks and 
unfortunately no simple answers so far, I am afraid. 
However it can be agreed that there are no so called Bach lute suites if we 
understand them the same way that some guitarists used to believe in past, but 
then the question is what guitarist and how can we judge someones knowledge. 
It's much better to present  bare facts letting people decide what they can 
make of it, IMHO. 
My 2 cents

Best regards

Jaroslaw



Wiadomość napisana przez Braig, Eugene w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:01:

 I wholeheartedly agree, jl.  Fortunately, I don't believe the little article 
 discussed here did make any such definitive statements.  I think it did a 
 fair job of presenting evidence with relative objectivity.
 
 Eugene
 
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of 
 Jarosław Lipski [jaroslawlip...@wp.pl]
 Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:06 PM
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [LUTE] Re:   Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
 
 Discussion is always a good thing, the problem begins when someone makes very 
 definite statements like-  the evidence would be that Bach did not write any 
 music specifically intended for solo lute
 -  or -You know what I am going to say next–perhaps you should sit down
 I understand that it was addressed to guitar players, but still we need more 
 evidence before trying to convince someone that A or B is true. Musicology is 
 a tricky bussiness and there is a lot of speculation on lute pieces by Bach. 
 I'd rather use some arguments from available scholarly literature than made 
 ad hoc theories, unless the reason for this was to stir a discussion.
 
 jl
 
 
 WiadomoϾ napisana przez t...@heartistrymusic.com w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 
 20:02:
 
 ...   It's obviously a bit of
 popular-press fluff, not even quite gray literature, but that stuff
 tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly
 literature ever will.   Eugene
 I agree.
 The interesting thing to me on this topic is the response it is getting
 from the Lute list.  Yes, you lutenists who have been at it for 20 - 30
 years already know this, but I think that in all likelihood, the rest of the
 music world does not.  An article like this on a guitar site (nose 
 upturned?)
 will probably reach a lot more people, and therefore could be a good thing,
 bringing more attention to lutes from other musical disciplines.  Something
 I have noticed in reading liner notes to CDs / LPs is that, for example,
 keyboard afficianodos sometimes seem to be unaware that a Bach piece
 was also arranged by the man himself for other instruments.  The same is
 true for violin, etc.
 Any press is good press - even bad press.  I personally think that the more
 people write about these things, the better.  And if you have pertinent info 
 that
 this writer doesn't seem to have, maybe they would like to know about it?
 Knowledge, especially accurate knowledge, is best shared with the world.
 And anything done to place the word Lute in front of a wider audience is 
 going
 to be good for lutes and lutenists.
 I'll look forward to future responses.
 Tom
 However, there is at least a fair amount of reference to primary
 source material (the manuscripts themselves).  It's obviously a bit of
 popular-press fluff, not even quite gray literature, but that stuff
 tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly
 literature ever will.
 
 Eugene
 
 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
 Behalf Of Stephan Olbertz Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 4:35 AM Cc:
 lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach´s Lute
 Suites: This Myth is Busted
 
 Am 25.04.2012, 22:27 Uhr, schrieb Daniel Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net:
 
 The article was aimed at the guitar crowd,
 
 And that's probably why the article is a bit superficial. ;-) A real
 contribution would need to be in scholarly style. No references here,
 no mentioning of newer literature (e.g. by Negwer, Dierksen, Hofmann,
 Ledbetter), lots of statements without evidence.
 
 Regards
 
 Stephan
 
 
 
 
 
 still clinging to illusions
 of lute. It's tough letting go.
 But he put it all together very nicely, I thought.
 
 On Apr 25, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Braig, Eugene wrote:
 
 While I enjoyed this read, I didn't see anything particularly new
 here.  For example, Hopkinson Smith specifically named all the
 sources of Bach's

[LUTE] Re: Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted

[Jarosław Lipski]

but in this case a spade is not a spade :)
JL


Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:32:

 Yes,
 but -
 sometimes we have to give up the musicological mumbo-jumbo,
 and just call a spade a spade.
 RT
 
 - Original Message - From: Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:24 PM
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
 
 
 Eugene,
 
 Well, saying that the evidence would be that Bach did not write any music 
 specifically intended for solo lute sounds to me (do correct me if I'm 
 wrong) a little bit like a definite statement or a  final argument, doesn't 
 it? There is nothing wrong in having doubts and expressing them publicly, 
 but making new theories is another matter. I greatly recommend David 
 Ledbetters book Unaccompanied Bach (as mentioned) which deals with all 
 available data concerning this subject in detail. There are many question 
 marks and unfortunately no simple answers so far, I am afraid.
 However it can be agreed that there are no so called Bach lute suites if we 
 understand them the same way that some guitarists used to believe in past, 
 but then the question is what guitarist and how can we judge someones 
 knowledge. It's much better to present  bare facts letting people decide 
 what they can make of it, IMHO.
 My 2 cents
 
 Best regards
 
 Jaroslaw
 
 
 
 Wiadomość napisana przez Braig, Eugene w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:01:
 
 I wholeheartedly agree, jl.  Fortunately, I don't believe the little 
 article discussed here did make any such definitive statements.  I think it 
 did a fair job of presenting evidence with relative objectivity.
 
 Eugene
 
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of 
 Jarosław Lipski [jaroslawlip...@wp.pl]
 Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:06 PM
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [LUTE] Re:   Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
 
 Discussion is always a good thing, the problem begins when someone makes 
 very definite statements like-  the evidence would be that Bach did not 
 write any music specifically intended for solo lute
 -  or -You know what I am going to say next–perhaps you should sit down
 I understand that it was addressed to guitar players, but still we need 
 more evidence before trying to convince someone that A or B is true. 
 Musicology is a tricky bussiness and there is a lot of speculation on lute 
 pieces by Bach. I'd rather use some arguments from available scholarly 
 literature than made ad hoc theories, unless the reason for this was to 
 stir a discussion.
 
 jl
 
 
 WiadomoϾ napisana przez t...@heartistrymusic.com w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o 
 godz. 20:02:
 
 ...   It's obviously a bit of
 popular-press fluff, not even quite gray literature, but that stuff
 tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly
 literature ever will.   Eugene
 I agree.
 The interesting thing to me on this topic is the response it is getting
 from the Lute list.  Yes, you lutenists who have been at it for 20 - 30
 years already know this, but I think that in all likelihood, the rest of 
 the
 music world does not.  An article like this on a guitar site (nose 
 upturned?)
 will probably reach a lot more people, and therefore could be a good thing,
 bringing more attention to lutes from other musical disciplines. Something
 I have noticed in reading liner notes to CDs / LPs is that, for example,
 keyboard afficianodos sometimes seem to be unaware that a Bach piece
 was also arranged by the man himself for other instruments.  The same is
 true for violin, etc.
 Any press is good press - even bad press.  I personally think that the 
 more
 people write about these things, the better.  And if you have pertinent 
 info that
 this writer doesn't seem to have, maybe they would like to know about it?
 Knowledge, especially accurate knowledge, is best shared with the world.
 And anything done to place the word Lute in front of a wider audience is 
 going
 to be good for lutes and lutenists.
 I'll look forward to future responses.
 Tom
 However, there is at least a fair amount of reference to primary
 source material (the manuscripts themselves).  It's obviously a bit of
 popular-press fluff, not even quite gray literature, but that stuff
 tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly
 literature ever will.
 
 Eugene
 
 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
 Behalf Of Stephan Olbertz Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 4:35 AM Cc:
 lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach´s Lute
 Suites: This Myth is Busted
 
 Am 25.04.2012, 22:27 Uhr, schrieb Daniel Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net:
 
 The article was aimed at the guitar crowd,
 
 And that's probably why the article is a bit superficial. ;-) A real
 contribution would need to be in scholarly style. No references here

[LUTE] Re: Re: Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted

[Jarosław Lipski]

Roman,
I do not share your dislike for musicology. It pays really big service to all 
of us I suppose. It has its rules and  trespassing them creates the effect you 
are talking about. I am just saying that the available evidence on so called 
Lute Suites does not entitle us to make very definite statements that Bach 
never ever wrote anything with a lute in mind apart from 2 small movements in 
his Passions. It would be not too difficult to create a contradictory theory, 
but this kind of speculation seems to be rather a waste of time.
JL

Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o godz. 23:01:

 a geetar then.
 Phrases like there is some likelihood that item X might very well could have 
 been item Y
 may work in some musicological situations, but not in the case of our Lute 
 Suites.
 RT
 
 - Original Message - From: Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:50 PM
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
 
 
 but in this case a spade is not a spade :)
 JL
 
 
 Wiadomość napisana przez Roman Turovsky w dniu 29 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:32:
 
 Yes,
 but -
 sometimes we have to give up the musicological mumbo-jumbo,
 and just call a spade a spade.
 RT
 
 - Original Message - From: Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2012 4:24 PM
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
 
 
 Eugene,
 
 Well, saying that the evidence would be that Bach did not write any music 
 specifically intended for solo lute sounds to me (do correct me if I'm 
 wrong) a little bit like a definite statement or a  final argument, 
 doesn't it? There is nothing wrong in having doubts and expressing them 
 publicly, but making new theories is another matter. I greatly recommend 
 David Ledbetters book Unaccompanied Bach (as mentioned) which deals with 
 all available data concerning this subject in detail. There are many 
 question marks and unfortunately no simple answers so far, I am afraid.
 However it can be agreed that there are no so called Bach lute suites if 
 we understand them the same way that some guitarists used to believe in 
 past, but then the question is what guitarist and how can we judge 
 someones knowledge. It's much better to present  bare facts letting people 
 decide what they can make of it, IMHO.
 My 2 cents
 
 Best regards
 
 Jaroslaw
 
 
 
 Wiadomość napisana przez Braig, Eugene w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 22:01:
 
 I wholeheartedly agree, jl.  Fortunately, I don't believe the little 
 article discussed here did make any such definitive statements.  I think 
 it did a fair job of presenting evidence with relative objectivity.
 
 Eugene
 
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on behalf of 
 Jarosław Lipski [jaroslawlip...@wp.pl]
 Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 3:06 PM
 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Subject: [LUTE] Re:   Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
 
 Discussion is always a good thing, the problem begins when someone makes 
 very definite statements like-  the evidence would be that Bach did not 
 write any music specifically intended for solo lute
 -  or -You know what I am going to say next–perhaps you should sit down
 I understand that it was addressed to guitar players, but still we need 
 more evidence before trying to convince someone that A or B is true. 
 Musicology is a tricky bussiness and there is a lot of speculation on 
 lute pieces by Bach. I'd rather use some arguments from available 
 scholarly literature than made ad hoc theories, unless the reason for 
 this was to stir a discussion.
 
 jl
 
 
 WiadomoϾ napisana przez t...@heartistrymusic.com w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o 
 godz. 20:02:
 
 ...   It's obviously a bit of
 popular-press fluff, not even quite gray literature, but that stuff
 tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly
 literature ever will.   Eugene
 I agree.
 The interesting thing to me on this topic is the response it is getting
 from the Lute list.  Yes, you lutenists who have been at it for 20 - 30
 years already know this, but I think that in all likelihood, the rest of 
 the
 music world does not.  An article like this on a guitar site (nose 
 upturned?)
 will probably reach a lot more people, and therefore could be a good 
 thing,
 bringing more attention to lutes from other musical disciplines. 
 Something
 I have noticed in reading liner notes to CDs / LPs is that, for example,
 keyboard afficianodos sometimes seem to be unaware that a Bach piece
 was also arranged by the man himself for other instruments.  The same is
 true for violin, etc.
 Any press is good press - even bad press.  I personally think that the 
 more
 people write about these things, the better.  And if you have pertinent 
 info that
 this writer doesn't seem to have, maybe they would like to know about it?
 Knowledge, especially accurate

[LUTE] Re: 4060

[Jarosław Lipski]

Hear, hear! Absolutely, manuscripts should be in the public domain and easily 
available (at least in future).

jl


Wiadomość napisana przez David Tayler w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 02:38:

   Since I'm a hippie and believe all music should be free, some good must
   come from this.
   However, since I run a group and believe people should be paid, why
   don't you set up a PayPal donation event and I will be happy to chip
   in. And I imagine others would as well.
   I have often paid for mss to be scanned at libraries, knowing full well
   that others would benefit from these mss being bumped to the head of
   the inevitable line, to quote Dr. Blow.
   All mss will be scanned, of course. Only when? I just wish it had all
   been sooner before I ruined my eyes in the microfilm booth.
   However, I think it would be nice to share the cost.
   dt
 
   --
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 

[LUTE] Re: Bach’s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted

[Jarosław Lipski]

Discussion is always a good thing, the problem begins when someone makes very 
definite statements like-  the evidence would be that Bach did not write any 
music specifically intended for solo lute
-  or -You know what I am going to say next–perhaps you should sit down
I understand that it was addressed to guitar players, but still we need more 
evidence before trying to convince someone that A or B is true. Musicology is a 
tricky bussiness and there is a lot of speculation on lute pieces by Bach. I'd 
rather use some arguments from available scholarly literature than made ad hoc 
theories, unless the reason for this was to stir a discussion.

jl


WiadomoϾ napisana przez t...@heartistrymusic.com w dniu 26 kwi 2012, o godz. 
20:02:

 ...   It's obviously a bit of
 popular-press fluff, not even quite gray literature, but that stuff
 tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly
 literature ever will.   Eugene
 I agree.
  The interesting thing to me on this topic is the response it is getting 
 from the Lute list.  Yes, you lutenists who have been at it for 20 - 30 
 years already know this, but I think that in all likelihood, the rest of the 
 music world does not.  An article like this on a guitar site (nose 
 upturned?) 
 will probably reach a lot more people, and therefore could be a good thing, 
 bringing more attention to lutes from other musical disciplines.  Something 
 I have noticed in reading liner notes to CDs / LPs is that, for example, 
 keyboard afficianodos sometimes seem to be unaware that a Bach piece 
 was also arranged by the man himself for other instruments.  The same is 
 true for violin, etc.
  Any press is good press - even bad press.  I personally think that the 
 more 
 people write about these things, the better.  And if you have pertinent info 
 that 
 this writer doesn't seem to have, maybe they would like to know about it?
 Knowledge, especially accurate knowledge, is best shared with the world.
 And anything done to place the word Lute in front of a wider audience is 
 going 
 to be good for lutes and lutenists.
  I'll look forward to future responses.
 Tom
 However, there is at least a fair amount of reference to primary
 source material (the manuscripts themselves).  It's obviously a bit of
 popular-press fluff, not even quite gray literature, but that stuff
 tends to reach much more of the general public than scholarly
 literature ever will.
 
 Eugene
 
 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On
 Behalf Of Stephan Olbertz Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2012 4:35 AM Cc:
 lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: [LUTE] Re: Re: Bach´s Lute
 Suites: This Myth is Busted
 
 Am 25.04.2012, 22:27 Uhr, schrieb Daniel Winheld dwinh...@lmi.net:
 
 The article was aimed at the guitar crowd,
 
 And that's probably why the article is a bit superficial. ;-) A real
 contribution would need to be in scholarly style. No references here,
 no mentioning of newer literature (e.g. by Negwer, Dierksen, Hofmann,
 Ledbetter), lots of statements without evidence.
 
 Regards
 
 Stephan
 
 
 
 
 
 still clinging to illusions
 of lute. It's tough letting go.
 But he put it all together very nicely, I thought.
 
 On Apr 25, 2012, at 11:18 AM, Braig, Eugene wrote:
 
 While I enjoyed this read, I didn't see anything particularly new
 here.  For example, Hopkinson Smith specifically named all the
 sources of Bach's original lute music in the liner notes he
 drafted for his recording of this music around 30 years ago.  He
 also stated their evident non-lute provenance.  I have heard Paul
 O'Dette unequivocally state on more than one occasion something
 like Sorry, Bach did not write for the lute.  Etc.  I suspect
 that anybody who is still clinging to the notion that Bach
 knowingly composed lute music after having had some exposure to
 some reference of the source material either really, really wants
 to believe so to somehow legitimize the lute or is a fan of modern
 classical guitar who wants to somehow legitimize the perceived
 ancestor of his/her own instrument.
 
 Best,
 Eugene
 
 -Original Message-
 From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
 On Behalf Of t...@heartistrymusic.com Sent: Wednesday, April 25,
 2012 11:58 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Luca Manassero Subject:
 [LUTE] [LUTE] Bach´s Lute Suites: This Myth is Busted
 
 A very interesting article.  I can't wait to see the responses
 from 
 the rest of the list!  I am reminded that Walther Gerwig did an
 arrangement of Bach's Cello Suite No.1 in G major, BWV1007.  Very
 nice and beautifully played - in Renaissance tuning!
 Tom
 
 
 
 --
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at 
 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 --
 Erstellt mit Operas revolutionärem E-Mail-Modul:
 http://www.opera.com/mail/
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Tom Draughon
 Heartistry Music
 http://www.heartistrymusic.com/artists/tom.html
 714  9th Avenue 

[LUTE] Re: Lute size and set-up was Re: What makes a good lute?

[Jarosław Lipski]

lute makers probably should check a palm size before deciding on fingerboard 
and other things, like on this movie (have a look at around 12,20 min)  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHV3ODfFcgE
Obviously not very often we live close to our lute maker. Pitty 

JL



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - precision and accuracy

[Jarosław Lipski]

I wonder to what extent we can rely on painter's accuracy...e.g.. big 
bridge holes. As far as I can remember it was said that the evidence 
suggests narrow BH which was to support the loaded strings theory. On 
Holbein's painting we have enormous holes in comparison to the string 
gauges on the lute. Would a painter bother about realistic hole diameter ?
The same with high action. No one could examine that lute if it was 
playable, or was a professional instrument.or maybe it was just a prop.
On the other hand one of my lutes have an equal fretting and is very 
easy to play.


JL


W dniu 2011-02-09 09:49, Martyn Hodgson pisze:

Dear Anthony,

Thanks for this. On further reflection some other aspects come to mind:

1. Most particularly, the difference between precision (the number of
significant figures to which something is measured) and accuracy (how
near the measurement is to the object being measured). For example a
lute treble (of notional diameter, say, 0.49mm) may be given with a
measurement of 4.8743215689mm, which is certainly very precise (to 1 in
10,000millionth) but very inaccurate, or with a diameter of 0.5mm,
which is much more accurate but not very precise.
In the context of Holbein's wonderful painting, this may be translated
as saying that he represented items with great precision but, perhaps,
not always quite accurately. Thus, for example, the frets seem very
finely executed but perhaps the graduation was not anything that
bothered him (or his assistant). Other features which we find
troubling/interesting (eg strings coming off the top of the bridge, nut
rebate) may also be painted with great precision but maybe not with
total accuracy

2. Leaving this idea aside and my earlier speculation that equal frets
might be an attempt to counter a lifting neck or to make a Bray
harp-like sound (Capirola), we should not overlook the possibility that
fretting in the England in the early 16th century WAS of equal size:
the likely repertoire might not be so virtuosic as to demand the finest
set (lowest 'action') to the lute (as Dowland and later required).

Martyn


--- On Tue, 8/2/11, Anthony Hindagno3ph...@yahoo.com  wrote:

  From: Anthony Hindagno3ph...@yahoo.com
  Subject: Re : [LUTE] Re: Holbein painting [Google Art project] frets
  and bridge
  To: Martyn Hodgsonhodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
  Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Date: Tuesday, 8 February, 2011, 18:02

Thanks Martyn, I should have given you more time to think about this.
At a glance you're right,  the fretting does look all the same
   diameter!  Trying to think why this may be my speculation (and
that's
   all it is!) is : if the neck had pulled up this might have been done
so
   as to reduce the action by using a much thinner than normal upper
   frets.
Right, if we use equal frets to compensate for a raised kneck, then we
would use
equal but thin frets? Would you think this is the case, here?
Dowland suggests Fret 1 and 2: shoudl have the value of the
countertenor, ie
4th course?
Of course it is hard to evaluate from a painting and with zoom, and
also the
frets are double, but the thickness of the top fret (and all the
others) looks
about equivalent to the fourth string.
However, I think it might be a little silly to be too literal in
measures from a
painting.
The thing which made me feel that the lute might be deliberately chosen
with a
problematic setting (either kneck pulled up, or badly fretted) is the
way the
other instruments are said to be misaligned, according to the
articles I have
glanced over; but I agree with Lex that it is hard to say anything for
sure.
It is rather that I read several lutenists mentioning the thin strings,
as
though we could be sure this is good practise of the time.
regards
Anthony
   My earlier response to Anthony:
   Anthony
   Sorry to delay answering - I will reply to this but if you're in a
rush
   then send it off. I need to spend proper time studying the  picture.
   At a glance you're right,  the fretting does look all the same
   diameter!  Trying to think why this may be my speculation (and
that's
   all it is!) is : if the neck had pulled up this might have been done
so
   as to reduce the action by using a much thinner than normal upper
   frets. Alternatively, some early writer (Gerle?) mentions an effect
of
   strings buzzing on frets (I think to cut through like a Bray harp) -
   could this lute be set up to play like this?
   Also the strings do indeed seem to come from the top of the bridge
(or
   almost) - this is not really possible since in practice since simple
   statics will make the point half way between the top of the string
hole
   

[LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - precision and accuracy

[Jarosław Lipski]

   Here you are:
   [1]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-ambasado
   rs
   All the best
   JL

   W dniu 2011-02-09 13:51, Karen Hore pisze:

 Can anyone tell me which gallery the Holbein is in? I've been
 looking on GoogleArt but haven't seen it yet?

   Is was on GoogleArt? Or did I have a senior moment.
   Karen
   [2]karen.h...@gmail.com
   On 9 Feb 2011, at 11:18, Jarosl/aw Lipski wrote:

   I wonder to what extent we can rely on painter's accuracy...e.g.. big
   bridge holes. As far as I can remember it was said that the evidence
   suggests narrow BH which was to support the loaded strings theory. On
   Holbein's painting we have enormous holes in comparison to the string
   gauges on the lute. Would a painter bother about realistic hole
   diameter ?
   The same with high action. No one could examine that lute if it was
   playable, or was a professional instrumentor maybe it was just a
   prop.
   On the other hand one of my lutes have an equal fretting and is very
   easy to play.
   JL

 
 ---
 Tekst wstawiony przez Panda GP 2011:
 Jesli nie chcesz otrzymywac podobnych wiadomosci, wybierz ponizszy
 link, aby zaklasyfikowac ten e-mail jako SPAM: [3]To jest SPAM!
 
 ---

   --

References

   1. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-ambasadors
   2. mailto:karen.h...@gmail.com
   3. 
http://localhost:6083/Panda?ID=pav_268SPAM=truepath=C:%5CDocuments%20and%20Settings%5Cuser%5CUstawienia%20lokalne%5CDane%20aplikacji%5CPanda%20Security%5CPanda%20Global%20Protection%202011%5CAntiSpam


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - precision and accuracy

[Jarosław Lipski]

Anthony,

I agree, it is possible that Holbein painted the ambassador's lute. 
However, there is some inconsistency in the way he treated details. Some 
of them are very accurate (like the music), some are not (the globe). On 
the other hand we don't know who was wrong Holbein or the drawing on the 
globe (they didn't have computers then and we don't know who was a 
cartographer). If he was able to depict proportions of string gauges, 
then why suddenly he lost all his patience while painting the bridge 
holes ? One can see that he used very small diameter brushes, so there 
wouldn't have been any problem, had he seen proper size holes on the 
lute. Maybe he was not a lute expert, but I think he just saw big holes 
on the instrument. What was the history of that instrument?. Maybe the 
owner changed stringing for lighter one, but it's difficult to imagine 
such a thick gut to fit the hole on 6c and to sound reasonably well.

Hmmreally makes me wonder.
All best

Jaroslaw


W dniu 2011-02-09 16:02, Anthony Hind pisze:

Yes of course you are right about the painting not necessarily being accurate.
Although Val's arguments seem rather good to make us think it was the
ambassador's lute.

Generally, I think lute makers use as small a hole as they can get away with (at
least they seem to do so now). Whenever I have changed to a thicker string types
(change of pitch diapason, for example) I have had to have the hole widened.
Lute makers don't seem to allow for this. I suppose the smaller the hole, the
stronger the bridge? Although, the larger the number of courses and the bigger
the basses, the more important that would become, perhaps?

So I suppose the thinness of the strings in relation to the holes doesn't make
much sense.
You are right that at least on later Baroque lutes th small size of the holes
has been used to argue for loaded strings, but possibly not on a lute like this.
I wonder?
Anthony






- Message d'origine 
De : Jarosław Lipskijaroslawlip...@wp.pl
À : lute@cs.dartmouth.edulute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Envoyé le : Mer 9 février 2011, 12h 18min 24s
Objet : [LUTE] Re: Holbein painting - precision and accuracy

I wonder to what extent we can rely on painter's accuracy...e.g.. big
bridge holes. As far as I can remember it was said that the evidence
suggests narrow BH which was to support the loaded strings theory. On
Holbein's painting we have enormous holes in comparison to the string
gauges on the lute. Would a painter bother about realistic hole diameter ?
The same with high action. No one could examine that lute if it was
playable, or was a professional instrument.or maybe it was just a prop.
On the other hand one of my lutes have an equal fretting and is very
easy to play.

JL


W dniu 2011-02-09 09:49, Martyn Hodgson pisze:

 Dear Anthony,

 Thanks for this. On further reflection some other aspects come to mind:

 1. Most particularly, the difference between precision (the number of
 significant figures to which something is measured) and accuracy (how
 near the measurement is to the object being measured). For example a
 lute treble (of notional diameter, say, 0.49mm) may be given with a
 measurement of 4.8743215689mm, which is certainly very precise (to 1 in
 10,000millionth) but very inaccurate, or with a diameter of 0.5mm,
 which is much more accurate but not very precise.
 In the context of Holbein's wonderful painting, this may be translated
 as saying that he represented items with great precision but, perhaps,
 not always quite accurately. Thus, for example, the frets seem very
 finely executed but perhaps the graduation was not anything that
 bothered him (or his assistant). Other features which we find
 troubling/interesting (eg strings coming off the top of the bridge, nut
 rebate) may also be painted with great precision but maybe not with
 total accuracy

 2. Leaving this idea aside and my earlier speculation that equal frets
 might be an attempt to counter a lifting neck or to make a Bray
 harp-like sound (Capirola), we should not overlook the possibility that
 fretting in the England in the early 16th century WAS of equal size:
 the likely repertoire might not be so virtuosic as to demand the finest
 set (lowest 'action') to the lute (as Dowland and later required).

 Martyn


 --- On Tue, 8/2/11, Anthony Hindagno3ph...@yahoo.com   wrote:

   From: Anthony Hindagno3ph...@yahoo.com
   Subject: Re : [LUTE] Re: Holbein painting [Google Art project] frets
   and bridge
   To: Martyn Hodgsonhodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk
   Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Date: Tuesday, 8 February, 2011, 18:02

 Thanks Martyn, I should have given you more time to think about this.
 At a glance you're right,  the fretting does look all the same
diameter!  Trying to think why this may be my speculation (and
 that's
all it is!) is : if the neck had 

[LUTE] Re: Google Art project

[Jarosław Lipski]

It must be NNG. Besides, the thin octave on F makes me think about his 
HIPness  :)


all best

JL


W dniu 2011-02-05 03:32, Ed Durbrow pisze:

I missed the beginning of this thread. Luckily I checked the link. Wow!
I'm so happy to have this link. What detail! I use this picture in my
academic lecture class at Saitama U. (not teaching one this year or
next unfortunately). It is always good for two or three 90 minute
lectures, what with all the tangents I go off on.

Those are quite thin strings on that lute. I wonder if he was using
carbon fiber. :-)


  [3][1]http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-am
  bas

   sadors

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
[2]http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
[3]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/

--

References

1. http://www.googleartproject.com/museums/nationalgallery/the-ambas
2. http://www.musicianspage.com/musicians/9688/
3. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: catgut

[Jarosław Lipski]

Martin,
Thank you  for this correction. I was influenced by Alexander, but you 
are right that citation is from Mary Burwell - chapter IV (Of the 
strings of the lute, and stringing thereof;and of the frets and tuning 
of the lute). She writes: The strings are made of sheep's and cat's 
guts, and are twisted with a great deal of art.


JL

W dniu 2010-12-29 17:14, Martin Shepherd pisze:

Dear All,

I don't know whether Downing was misquoted, but the ascription of the 
Sheepes and Catts gutte quote to Margaret Board is incorrect.  It is 
found in the Burwell lute tutor (c.1670), which was almost certainly 
copied by Mary Burwell from an anonymous source, probably her teacher.


Martin



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: catgut

[Jarosław Lipski]

It doesn't rule out a possibility, that this term could be  borrowed 
from fiddlers world thou.
As I said there is no bibliography given, so it's difficult to check 
that data out, but I cited it as one of possible hypothesis.


JL

W dniu 2010-12-27 17:29, howard posner pisze:

On Dec 27, 2010, at 6:51 AM, Roman Turovsky wrote:


That's tasty food for thought to catgut integralists on this list, and a bite 
out
of their ideal of authenticity.
I already imagine Dan Larson chasing a suitable kitty, because Anthony Hind has 
just ordered a set.
RT

Morris' pseudo-etymological conjecture (hardly unique to him) may be plausible 
for fiddlers, but any lutenist who could manage to make his instrument sound 
like a cat of any kind would have my enduring respect.


A thousand pardons if I've asked this before, but is string material called 
cat gut in French, German, or Italian?



- Original Message - From: Jaroslaw Lipskijaroslawlip...@wp.pl
To:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, December 27, 2010 9:34 AM
Subject: [LUTE] catgut



Although this subject was discussed couple of month ago, quite unexpectedly I found an interesting 
information in a book on cats which casts some new light on this term. In Cat watching Desmond 
Morris asks why sheep gut should be perversely referred to as catgut, and suggests that the clue lies in the 
earliest use of the term. At the beginning of the seventeenth century, one author wrote of fiddlers 
tickling the dryed gutts of a mewing cat. Later we hear of a man upset at every twang of 
the cat-gut, as if he heard at the moment the wailing of the helpless animal that had been sacrificed to 
harmony. These references come from a period when domestic cats were all too often the victims of 
persecution and torture, and the sound of squealing cats was not unfamiliar to human ears. In addition, there 
was the noise of the caterwauling at times when feral tomcats were arguing over females in heat. Together, 
these characteristic feline sounds provided the obvious basis for a!

 !

  comparison with the din created by inexpert musicians scraping at their 
stringed instruments. In the imaginations of the tormented listeners, the 
inappropriate sheep gut became transformed into the appropriate catgut - a 
vivid fiction to replace a dull fact (as he suggests).

Hmm...quite interesting...though he didn't enclose any bibliography (pity!).

Best wishes for the coming New Year!

Jaroslaw Lipski



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




--

[LUTE] Re: And another question about nylguts (was: Carbon strings?)

[Jarosław Lipski]

Arto,

No problems with nylgut at all. Recently I was playing in Caccini's 
opera. No time to tune - playing all the time. At least not for the 
theorbist, only strings tuning their guts frequently, harpsichord during 
the interval (I had 2 minutes when he finished), but everything in tune. 
You just have to compromise when to put them on.

Best

Jaroslaw



W dniu 2010-06-07 21:53, wikla pisze:

And still about synhetics:

David T. (dt) wrote here lately that Mimmo's nylgut strings have some
overtone problems, some uneven(?) behaviour. Is that something that is
generally noticed or found? Or was that only dt's private feeling? Mimmo,
do you have any idea about dt's comments of this?

Arto

PS Planning to order more gut strings... A new world to me... Quite
different, quite wonderful... ;)
And complicated and worrying...


On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 23:31:23 +0300, wiklawi...@cs.helsinki.fi  wrote:
   

Dearest lute gang,

one question about the carbon string material (=high density
 

hydrocarbon
   

polymer):

I have been using it much, but I have always ordered it from lute string
makers. But as far as I know, this material was developed for a non lute
world (fishing?). So, does anyone here really know, if the lute string
carbon and the fishing line carbon are the same thing and the same
quality? If yes, please let me know, where to get this quality fishing
carbon? I guess the fishers order their stuff in 100's of meters, and to
me a couple of meters is the maximum per one string. In the fisher's way,
those unpackaged strings could be _very_ economical to us lutenists?

Arto
 



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


   

[LUTE] Re: And another question about nylguts (was: Carbon strings?)

[Jarosław Lipski]

Arto,

I don't have any gear to measure it, but it sounds true to my ears. 
Aren't our ears what really counts?


Jaroslaw


W dniu 2010-06-07 22:45, wikla pisze:

Yep Jaroslaw,

no tuning problems with nylguts! Easily in tune also here... But that was
not the question. It was about dt's claim about the overtones behaving
stranglely in nylgut. Any other player found anything like that? Any
laboratory measurements?

Just interesting, not important... Nylgut sounds nice to me - as any
synthetics - actually feel better to the fingers... ;)

Arto

On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 22:14:22 +0100, Jarosław Lipski
jaroslawlip...@wp.pl  wrote:
   

Arto,

No problems with nylgut at all. Recently I was playing in Caccini's
opera. No time to tune - playing all the time. At least not for the
theorbist, only strings tuning their guts frequently, harpsichord during
the interval (I had 2 minutes when he finished), but everything in tune.
You just have to compromise when to put them on.
Best

Jaroslaw



W dniu 2010-06-07 21:53, wikla pisze:
 

And still about synhetics:

David T. (dt) wrote here lately that Mimmo's nylgut strings have some
overtone problems, some uneven(?) behaviour. Is that something that is
generally noticed or found? Or was that only dt's private feeling?
   

Mimmo,
   

do you have any idea about dt's comments of this?

Arto

PS Planning to order more gut strings... A new world to me... Quite
different, quite wonderful... ;)
 And complicated and worrying...


On Mon, 07 Jun 2010 23:31:23 +0300, wiklawi...@cs.helsinki.fi   wrote:

   

Dearest lute gang,

one question about the carbon string material (=high density

 

hydrocarbon

   

polymer):

I have been using it much, but I have always ordered it from lute
 

string
   

makers. But as far as I know, this material was developed for a non
 

lute
   

world (fishing?). So, does anyone here really know, if the lute string
carbon and the fishing line carbon are the same thing and the same
quality? If yes, please let me know, where to get this quality fishing
carbon? I guess the fishers order their stuff in 100's of meters, and
to
me a couple of meters is the maximum per one string. In the fisher's
way,
those unpackaged strings could be _very_ economical to us lutenists?

Arto

 


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



   




   

[LUTE] Re: Marco dall'Aquila / O'Dette

[Jarosław Lipski]

So do I. Generally there are 2 schools of recording: 1/with lots of mics 
to catch various plans of the room acoustics which gives later bigger 
choices in mixing 2/purist - just pair of stereo mics to sound as 
natural as possible. I prefer the latter. Please have a look at the 
spacing of mics on the photo of my live, stereo recording with Didrik 
DeGeer microphones and preamps 
http://www.peregrinerecords.com/Pages/Info%20About%20What%20Thing%20Is%20Love.html 

These mics are incredibly sensitive and  takes from the wooden chapel 
sound better then those recorded later in the stone church (it's just my 
taste), but both reproduce natural acoustics of the places we were 
recording quite faithfully.


Jaroslaw



W dniu 2010-04-02 19:07, Jean-Marie Poirier pisze:

I totally concur, Ned ! 2 excellent mics and proper acoustics are largely 
sufficient for a lute !

Jean-Marie

=

== En réponse au message du 02-04-2010, 16:55:11 ==

   

   Well, recorded sound is a matter of taste, to be sure (it seems clear
   that there is no reference for good recorded sound).  But I would be
   curious as to why dt feels so many - 6 or more - mics are necessary for
   recording a single instrument.  Whether it's multi-micing or too
   much reverb - artificial or natural - that destroys the dall'Aauila CD,
   I think it represents a cautionary example of misguided recording
   engineering.



   Ned

   --


To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
---
Orange vous informe que cet  e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail.
Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte.


 


Nˆ¶‰è®‡ß¶¬–+-±ç¥ŠËbú+™«b¢v­†Ûiÿü0ÁËj»f¢ëayÛ¿Á·?–ë^iÙ¢Ÿø§uìatml=

[LUTE] Re: Switching between gut and synthetics [Wirewound/Loaded] London?

[Jarosław Lipski]

Anthony,




Jaroslaw
 Just one question, first, did you receive my message from the lute
list, or was it quite empty.
I have been told that some people received a blank message (probably
with some relief).

   
Yes, I received your message. Sorry for not replying straight away. 
Sometimes I'm not at home for a longer period of time.



Yes but we can see what they were trying to do by looking at instrument
structure, not so easilly by looking at strings, as there are not many
available, except the Mest string.
   
I agree that instruments give us some indications on what the tendency 
of lute evolution was, however we shouldn't forget old writings which 
give us some clues too.



We can see from the sympathetic stringing that they were indeed trying
to obtain more sustain, but they could have  just put them on the bass
end, if it was only bass sustain they were interested in.
   


I didn't say they were interested only in bass sustain. I was talking 
about bass strings because this is how our conversation began, but you 
are right that  they were trying to enhance sonority of lutes in general.



But I am not only interested in the question at a practical level. I do
happen to be interested in the whole Bass string mystery question. In
relation to that, we can also discuss the Lang Lay rope solution of
George, the Spring rope solution of Charles, as well as HT and low
tension, or Mimmo's loaded solution. All these hopefully, along with
wire wounds can give more varied performances, but actually, I am also
interested in the theoretical debate.
PARA
I know that first and foremost, you are a practical musician, so this
may not interest you quite so much, but personally I wouldlisten to the
general argumentation, even if the strings were not makeable at
present. I am glad there are attempts at realizing them that do work,
but I read archeological discussions, that have no obvious practical
repercussions, and enjoy the reasoning, per se.
   
I am not sure why you have this impression that I am not interested in 
solving the mystery of historical strings, on the contrary this is one 
of my favourite topics as you can see, because type of stringing has 
very big influence on lute's sound. I'm just not so convinced about what 
we already have.

Anyway, thank you for interesting conversation.

Best wishes

Jaroslaw



Thanks again for making le think.
All the best
Anthony
  All the best

  Jaroslaw

I certainly d


  To get on or off this list see list information at
  [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


--

References

1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html



   

[LUTE] Re: Switching between gut and synthetics [Wirewound/Loaded] London?

[Jarosław Lipski]

Anthony,

As far as sustain is concerned I was rather talking about the bass 
strings. Obviously sustain is related to the instrument construction, 
but  this is another topic.

PARA
I would not argue against that, but I would suggest that it was not
always bass sustain they were looking for.
There seems to have been a great deal of research attempted on the way
strings resonate, although the full explanations of sympathethetic
resonance come a little later, and we see all sorts of instruments with
sympathetic strings created (including Dm in which the open strings
that are unused do act that way), but this is not just to increase bass
sustain.
PARA


PARA
I also agree with Mimmo, but this does not mean that the differences in
lute string structure according to register means a less homogeneous
sound, on the contrary.

   
Different material has to mean difference in tonal quality. Homogeneous 
means: 1/of the same nature or kind 2/uniform in structure or 
composition throughout.
The other term is harmonious meaning: having component elements 
pleasingly or appropriately combined. So real homogeneity is not 
achievable on baroque lute because of technical problems you mentioned. 
Moreover I don't think that ideal of homogeneity was valued in Baroque 
era any longer to the same extent as in past. The only thing we can 
discuss is smoothness of transition between registers. I agree that it 
has some importance for French music, however German music works very 
well on instruments with very distinct registers.




Here, I think we understood things differently. I may be wrong, but I
thought this superb string, with its magnificient behaviour when held
between the hands, was Mimmo's latest version of his Venice loaded. As
I understood it, the cream of Tartar was used to obtain an even
smoother loading than he had obtained before. The result is that a very
thin Venice core could be maintained, as a heavier loading could be
used, allowing the loading to be increased in steps on the same core
(just as the Dutch lute allows the same thickness of bass to be used
for all basses, by increasing their length by steps).
This would give an exceptionally low impedance (as explained above) and
a remarkably true resonance pattern, as shown by Gerle, Leroy,
Mersenne, etc:
   
I can't be sure because Mimmo's explanations on this topic weren't 
absolutely clear, but as far as I and some other people understood this 
was just a sample of transitional state of gut production after a 
treatment with tartar oil (which idea was borrowed not necessarily from 
the string makers) , however the string would be stiffened again in 
later phases. Probably this doubt could be solved only by Mimmo himself 
(I am sorry if I got something wrong).




PARA
I quite agree, a good lutenist can make beautiful music with
wirewounds, and it is true that it can be better to hear an excellent
musician on a lute strung that way than a lesser musician with loaded
strings. However, that is a little like saying (but to a lesser degree)
that you would prefer to hear a first rate pianist playing Bach, than a
second rate harpsichordist (when it comes to French harpsichord music,
however, I might begin to prefer the second).
   
No, this is just to say that many first class musicians choose wire 
wounds or synthetics or both (in various combinations) for some reasons. 
Now, you can ask yourself why. Probably for various reasons. But I don't 
think that the main reason is they are cheap. Actually they posses some 
musical qualities that gut doesn't, and it was recognized by some good 
musicians. Whether you like these qualities or not is a matter of 
preference, but it can't be denied they posses some valuable virtues. As 
I repeatedly say, I love gut too, but it's for me just different not 
necessarily much better. It is better for some music and for some 
occasions. Unless new types of gut are invented that will surpass all 
other string types I will use both.


All the best

Jaroslaw



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Switching between gut and synthetics [Wirewound/Loaded]?

[Jarosław Lipski]

Anthony,

How strange...it looks like we were both the same place and the same 
time not knowing about each other. It's a pity I didn't know you would 
be there too.
Anyway, I have a strong impression from what you are writing, that 
during our string talk you were very much relating to the 17 c.French 
music. In this case I would be more inclined to agree on the string 
choice. However I was rather talking about lute string evolution in 
general. Existing sources confirm  that the longer sustain wasn't 
necessarily avoided as you suggest. On the contrary there were attempts 
made to prolong sustain as much as their technique allowed for. We can't 
compare the tone quality and sustain of their open wire wounds with our 
modern because the wire they used was much thicker then the one we use 
at present and had different contain. But the overall tendency seems to 
be quite clear. Secondly I wasn't talking about modern close wire 
wounds. Thirdly, there will always be some critical opinions. This is 
how it gets when something new is introduced. Some conservative people 
would despise new inventions which doesn't signify that the rest would 
share this feeling.  As I can see, you are looking for the homogeneity 
in lute's sound, however I don't think this is the only way a lute can 
work. Mace makes very clear distinctions between lute registers  and 
probably absolutely different types of strings were used for those 
registers as Mimmo were suggesting  during the London meeting. I agree 
with him in this respect.
He also showed a gut string treated with tartar oil enormously elastic 
which looked more like a rope (it could easily be wound in bundle) but 
obviously it was only a way of preserving gut as I understood from his 
explanations, but not the end result. Unfortunately historical gut 
strings made nowadays don't posses these qualities. It is still a 
mystery what their gut strings were like. Lack of uniformity in string 
production is not a good explanation so far. It is possible that gut was 
treated somehow in order to make it very elastic.
But back to basses. I am very practical musician as you know, and before 
I say that something works I have to hear it first. Theoretical 
explanations aren't good enough for me. In the end of string meeting 
there was a recital of French music(mainly from Vaudry de Saizenay 
manuscript) played by Claire Antonini. I enjoyed it immensely and it 
didn't matter that she was playing on the lute strung in nylon and wire 
wounds. It was just a good performance. On the other hand it was a pity 
that Benjamin (who was there too I think) didn't play his all gut lute. 
That would be a great comparison of how stringing influences French music.



All the best

Jaroslaw





PARA
However, as Martin tells us, it is the Burwell lute book, which
explains that the French removed the low octave from the 11th course
because the sound of it was too big (not necessarily sustained) and
smothered the other strings.
Although some do consider this as an explanation after the event, of
the way some lutenists may have altered their 10c lutes to 11c without
changing the peg structure, nevertheless, this does not seem to
indicate a love of deep bass, among the later French Baroque lutenists,
which might have lead to their preferring demi-filA(c) strings.
PARA
Indeed, according to Charles Besnainou (message to the French lute
list), gimping and wrapping were well known in the embroidery trade for
several hundred years, and so the technology was at hand, if anyone had
felt a need for their use; but as Martin points out, after Playford, no
lute treaty (Burwell or Mace) even mentions these string types.
PARA
Ch.B. goes on to write, more than a century after the invention of
wirewounds advertized in the English Dancing Master of John Playford
(Londres, 1651), we find this critical commentary in l'Art du faiseur
d'instruments (l'EncyclopA(c)die MA(c)thodique, Paris, 1785) :
A  a|les bourdons filA(c)s ont l'inconvA(c)nient de dominer trop sur
les autres cordes, et d'en faire perdre le son final par la durA(c)e du
leur, dans les batteries de guitares. A
Thus as late as 1785 wire wounds (most possibly full wirewounds) are
described as overpowering the other voices and covering them completely
in their moment of decay; and this quality/defect for French Baroque Dm
music, remains, in my mind, a real problem with full wirewounds today,
and which damping does not completely allay.
PARA
On the other hand, Claude Perrault (quoted by MP), in  OUVRES DE
PYSIQUE, AMSTERDAM 1680, seems to agree with Jaroslav: of wirewounds
he says, ...c'est par cette mA-ame raison que la maniere que l'on a
inventA(c)e depuis peu de charger les cordes a boyau, rend leur son
beaucop plus fort: car le fil de metail trait... (27).

[LUTE] Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?

[Jarosław Lipski]

Alexander,

Well, I think this is just misunderstanding. What I was trying to do is to 
show that verbal descriptions of tone colour are subjective and can lead to 
misinterpretation. I purposly showed 2 extremes: mellow and sharp only to 
diferentiate general tone qualities. I don't think we have to do with a myth 
of sharp lute sound. On the contrary we have to do with myth of a sweet , 
full ,and mellow tone quality mentioned by some writers. We can't proove it 
because we don't have old strings, but I am afraid that comparing a lute 
played in proper (pinky on a bridge or behind) manner with the same lute 
played using modern technique (which is neither renaissance nor baroque), 
and then describing the tone characteristic would be very instructive. The 
only person that I know of using this technique is Toyoshiko Satoh. When I 
listen to his recordings (turning the volume up) I can hear that the quality 
of his tone is very different from what we are used to. Inspite of using a 
very low tension strings I can hear in the tone some kind of  stiffness 
(kind of a sound not very far from a lute stop). And no wonder because even 
if your string is slack its elasticity drops down rapidly towards the bridge 
(giving a little bit more wooden quality to it - actually I never mentioned 
harsh tone).  Nothing wrong with that! It's just different. So ,what I was 
saying is that all the descriptions of lute's sound are very subjective.
Now, I don't know what Mace comment you were thinking off. If you meant 
Playford's advertissement I can't see where he mentions too long sustain of 
the strings. Here is the full citation:
Advertisment (John Playford An introduction to the skill of music, 4th 
edition London 1664):
There is a late invension of strings for the basses of viols and violins, 
or lutes which
sound much better and louder then the common gut string, either under the 
bow or finger. It
is small wire twisted or gimped upon a gut string or upon silk. I have made 
trial of
both,but those upon silk do hold best and give as good a sound. The choise 
of these strings
are to be sold at Mr. Richard Hunts Instrument-seller at the Lute in St. 
Pauls Alley near Pater noster Row.

Finis
Actually he was praising newly invented wire (gimped) strings which had much 
better sound quality then ordinary gut. As you see it looks like they were 
looking for new string material for because gut wasn't ideal and they liked 
stronger, louder tone with more sustain.
Silk strings were mentioned by Terzi (1686) as well. As for roped silk 
Dowland's Gansar strings could be a candidate. Also silk strings with silver 
wire - so called Grotesky strings - were well received:
Goretsky hath an  invention of lute strings covered with silver wyer, or 
strings which

make a most admirable musick. Mr Boyle. [...] String of guts done
about with silver wyer makes a very sweet musick, being of Goretsky's
invention ( 1659 ).
All in all, describtions were and are subjective, but we have our own ears 
to asses if the string is good or not.

Best

Jaroslaw


- Original Message - 
From: alexander voka...@verizon.net
To: Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl; lute-cs.dartmouth.edu 
lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 3:24 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?


If i may, just on two erroneous assumptions regarding the imagined sound 
quality from when Historical Correctness was the History Itself. One has 
to do with the idea of the lute basses having rather short sustain. 
Mersenne, who otherwise is an accepted authoritative source on the strings 
(+ more), claimed that bass strings on the lutes had sustain of several 
seconds. Currently possible only with the wound strings. Mace in his 
comment regarding the new wire wound basses, dismissed their usefulness on 
the same basis, as, according to him, the currently available basses, on 
long lutes had too long a sustain already. This is one of the points which, 
as i understand, keeps Mimmo Peruffo on searching for ever better answers 
then the current loaded gut offers.
The second has to do with the universally accepted assumption that playing 
near the bridge with the thumb out produces a sharp tone ( Did
they like mellow or sharp tone? The RH position of most baroque lute 
players

on old paintings suggests the later.). This is just an assumption, as
strange as it may be. Toyohiko Satoh demonstrates this on
baroque lute. Then there is the case of this famous picture here:
http://library.csun.edu/igra/bios/graphics/aguado-d.gif
The picture is of Dionisio Aguado, who according to his contemporaries
hearing him play duets with Fernando Sor, at times had as deep and
dignified sound, as Sor did, while playing WITH FINGERNAILS with his
little finger firmly lodged behind the bridge. The critics, who
otherwise were not noticed to be ignorant or unprofessional, on
occasion compared his midrange sound to a cello! Of course then alternating

[LUTE] Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?

[Jarosław Lipski]

 register.
I am not advocating here use of grand piano strings for lute, but I am 
trying to say that describing tone quality can be very subjective.
We know that probably silk strings were used on lutes. Acording to the 
author of the article on guqin silk strings: Some early records mention 
strings vibrating for up to 10 seconds after being struck: gut strings 
vibrate a second or two at most, but silk vibrations can continue for 10 
seconds. So the argument that gut was highly valued for its short time of 
vibration seems to be fallacious. Morover, metal strings were used in Italy 
on theorbos with even longer vibrating time.
It can't be excluded that gut was most commonly used because it was 
cheapest, less problematic than silk and easiest to obtain but not 
necessarily for its tonal unsurpassable values.

4/Subtle sound qualities
This probably should be discussed together with tonal qualities,however some 
people refer to it as a special, unique characteristic of gut. Again it's 
very subjective, however I have an impression that succesful performance 
depends more on imagination and sensitivity of a musician not the string 
material used. There is nothing subtle in gut. We make it subtle by playing 
it in imaginative and subtle way.

5/ sensory sensations
Yes, this is probably the most valuable virtue of gut. Gut feels good, gut 
plays good under our fingers. It's not as slippery as nylon.

6/ecological
Good way to go for those who like everything natural. It is a nice feeling 
that the whole instrument is 100% natural.
To sum up I believe there are some important considerations in favor of gut 
use, however I wouldn't say that this is the only material suitable for lute 
strings. Unless we find with certaintenty how gut was made in past we can't 
pretend that the main reason for using it is to recreate an old, traditional 
way of playing. But even then, there is a place for new string materials 
which have some qualities that gut doesn't. Plastic sounds more plastic, 
that's obvious, but there are other adventages of using plastic.
I like history, nature and subtle things, but on the other hand we can't 
deny we are modern. So instead of concentrating on beeing 100% HIP I prefer 
to concentrate on music. I use gut but for different reasons.
Anyway,thank you for interesting thoughts. It was nice to talk to you again 
Anthony.


Best wishes

Jaroslaw

- Original Message - 
From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com

To: Jarosław Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2010 1:40 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?



  Hello Jaroslaw
It is good to hear from you again too, and to be back on one of
  our favourite topics!
  It is true that we can compare our situation with that of Oud players,
  but the recent story of Pipa players could be almost as enlightening.
  The early Pipa was played horizonatlly and with a plectrum, gradually
  more strings were added, the players used their fingers, and the pipa
  was held more vertically. Then finally, during the Cultural Revolution,
  the silk strings were changed for steel-nylon ones, possibly as an
  attempt to modernize  under the influence of Western music, but
  partly also just to play louder, so as to make the music less intimist
  and more suitable for popular audiences. Of course this also influenced
  the style of music, which was composed for the instrument.
  Although, the change from silk to metal is more extreme than the change
  from gut to carbon, this wider gap (along with an actual political rift
  between ancients and moderns), may nevertheless, by this very
  exaggeration, help us to better understand the more minute issues in
  the change from gut to carbon.
  PARA
  There is a superb article by Wong Shu-Chee on all these issues, about
  the guqin, or Chinese Zither, and it seems quite applicable to our
  discussion.
  [1]http://www.silkqin.com/03qobj/strings/shuchee1.htm
  PARA
  He says (and I think this must be true for synthetics for the Oud), As
  modern machine-made industrial products replace handicraft, traditional
  craftwork has declined around the world. Thus the appearance of steel
  strings, especially considering its applicability to modern
  performances, was inevitable.
  PARA
  He sums up the benefits from steel strings as being, better durability
  and stability, easier tuning, less string noise, better projection,
  better production stability. This has actually lead to a drop in
  quality of silk strings, which makes it harder to turn the clock back.
  Professional musicians of today's generation require consistency in
  the tuning of the instrument they use on stage, sufficient volume when
  playing in ensemble, bright tone as well as ease of tuning. When
  introducing a new composition, the strings must be fit for different
  requirements and special effecs. These are characteristics of metal
  strings that silk strings cannot

[LUTE] Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?

[Jarosław Lipski]

Yes, absolutely, the only difference being that they didn't care so much for
being HIP. Chitarrone is the best example. It was to resemble ancient
Chitarra but it was so far from the originalProbably old Chitarra
didn't suit the new music, however they liked the idea of playing an ancient
instrument. I think they consciously used past only for inspiration, to
create something anew.

Jaroslaw


- Original Message - 
From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com

To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 10:49 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?



A stimulating thought from the Haynes' book I'm reading at the moment,
that has some bearing on the subject at hand:
the modern HIP-movement is recreating early music much like the
Florentiner Camerata was recreating early music; we are making
something completely new - only time will tell how new or how lasting
- out of dissatisfaction with what was before.
Modern gut stringing might be a good example of this theory.

David
--
***
David van Ooijen
davidvanooi...@gmail.com
www.davidvanooijen.nl
***



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Tr :Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?

[Jarosław Lipski]

Hello Anthony,

It's so nice to hear you again! Unfortunately I have computer related 
problems as well. Instead of certain fonts the small box with letters inside 
appears on some sites. Do I lack some fonts in my laptop?
Anyway, back to Oud players. I think their world is in close relation to 
ours, so we can draw some paralels. We have to remember that the lute was 
intruduced to Europe during Moorish invasion (at least some wise man believe 
this), so in a way our lute is a descendant of Oud. Their tradition is 
unbroken since mediaeval times or even earlier. I can even risk saying that 
their tradition is even more stable then  European in XVII or XVIII c. We 
can see how desperately people were looking for new solutions. How they were 
experimenting with new constructions of their instruments to suit new 
demands of the music. They lost the battle so this is why we can't see what 
would they invent later (maybe it's good we can not), but in general we 
can't assume that in Europe the lute players would be more traditional then 
in Arab countries.
I have heard many Oud players. Some of them are very traditional, other 
introduce new techniques, but in general they are very competent. The taste 
is a different matter, but...de gustibus non est disputandum.
In general, hadn't our lute tradition been broken, we wouldn't have the gut 
dispute anymore. But it's good we have! We have the choice. Choices are 
interesting. We don't need to pretend we are the old ones. We won't be HIP 
ever, but it doesn't mean we don't wish to unveil the real details of the 
art of  lute playing.
I absolutelly agree with Danny that from time to time we can hear some very 
unispiring so called HIP performances which one wouldn't like to hear again. 
On the other hand I have heard some fantastic recitals on syntethics. So in 
general I don't assess performance by the string or lute model selection.

I always say, one has to try, try and try and then decide what sounds best.

All the best

Jaroslaw


- Original Message - 
From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com

To: jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 9:59 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Tr :Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?



   I have had problems with loss of paragraph and line breaks, which have
  quite put me off messaging, so I will try using a AS: symbol to
  indicate paragraph break, and see if that works.
  Hello Jaroslaw
Last year, I went to a poetry reading which was accompanied
  with oud, at l'Institut du Monde Arabe, here in Paris, and before the
  readings began, the Oud player came on stage and began warming up. His
  playing seemed so subtle, and the Oud really beautiful (a sort of
  largish Venere style). Of course I could not say what his stringing
  was, but probably synthetics.
  Then he called in some technician, who set up a microphone, and the
  sound changed to electrified Oud, all the delicacy and tracery was
  gone. He called the technician back a few times, and I hoped he was
  going to have it switched off, or at leat turned down, but he had it
  turned up.
  The poetry was interesting, but also expressed very loudly, with a very
  strong romantic effect. The lute intervals were such a disappointment,
  not from the playing, but from its complete loss of the delicacy I had
  heard at the beginning; but clearly no one on stage, or off, had any
  problem with it, except myself.
  AS:
  Who am I to tell Oud players what they should or shouldn't do from a
  musical point of view, but I would certainly not base any argument on
  what we should do, from what they are doing at present.
  On the other hand, I would gladly receive lessons from this skillfull
  performer; as you say the speed and flow of his playing was
  magnificient, and there was nothing flashy or showy in his playing,
  like some modern guitarists tend to do. He was very much there to serve
  the music and the poetry; but for me this was severely flawed by the
  brash microphone sound.
  AS:
  Regards
  Anthony
  AS:
__

  De : anthony.h...@noos.fr anthony.h...@noos.fr
  A : Anthony-Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com
  EnvoyA(c) le : Sam 30 Janvier 2010, 0 h 57 min 00 s
  Objet : Tr :[LUTE] Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?
   Message d'origine 
  De : JarosAAaw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl
  A : lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  Objet : [LUTE] Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?
  Date : 29/01/2010 19:58:55 CET
  
  Whether your string is made of gut or syntetic it has nothing to do
  with
   tempo one can play. Each material demands different attitude when
  playing
   (and our contemporary big stars of the lute world are the real proof
  of
   this). Bach won't sound better or be played faster on gut because
  Bach
   didn't write idiomaticly for this instrument and many of his pieces
  can be
   played on any instrument. I am 

[LUTE] Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?

[Jarosław Lipski]

Whether your string is made of gut or syntetic it has nothing to do with 
tempo one can play. Each material demands different attitude when playing 
(and our contemporary big stars of the lute world are the real proof of 
this). Bach won't sound better or be played faster on gut because Bach 
didn't write idiomaticly for this instrument and many of his pieces can be 
played on any instrument. I am neither fan of syntetics nor guts. All of 
them have their problems and good sides. Some will sound better in some 
situations, some in othersbut I am sure that at least some of the old 
guys would use syntetics or wired strings. It's a matter of taste and 
practicality too (if one has to think about concert situation). BTW, I 
wonder why Arab Oud players don't use gut anymore (and they are faster then 
ever!). Don't they like traditional gut tone? I always thought they are very 
traditional..

Best

Jaroslaw


- Original Message - 
From: Daniel Winheld dwinh...@comcast.net

To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 5:46 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?



Anton,
Great perspective- my 13 course B-lute is indeed almost all gut (some
low fundamental compromises, solid silver wound La Bella guitar
strings- two d's and one A for fundamentals on C-11, B-12, and
A-13). I follow Toyohiko Satoh's low tension specs. While not a
virtuoso on Baroque lute, I don't find the tension any hindrance at
all to any tempi I might launch into. My viel ton instruments are at
slightly higher tensions- about midway Satoh's specs and the tension
charts like, say, Dan Larson's- no matter gut or synthetics- no
hindrance at all to tempo, and I think the lower tension makes
ornamentation a bit more forgiving on the synthetics.
Dan

Speaking of tempi, have you heard the Ensemble 415's  Opus 6 Corelli?


What I can say is -  my experience is only Baroque lute.
Gut strings are very stiff and it makes it possible to manage
certain things on low tension around 2,2 - 2,5 kilos which would
never be possible on nylon. Therefore many people play very low
tensioned lutes, saying this sounds better. I think as for the tone
itself it does sound a bit better but important is to be able to
express oneself ad here the problem comes. I never heard anyone to
perform a Weiss from Dresden let us say F sharpMinor n 23 or G minor
nr 30  or any piece of this scale with trebles having low tension. I
am also talking about real tempo.
I do think that Presto is FAST! and not a baroque word which means
expression etc. Weiss met Corelly and people were well aware of real
virtuoso music. So my point is the lute is just an instrument as any
other. It has to be playable, tempos fast and it must be in tune.
My wife Anna and concentrate on Bach and Weiss mostly pieces that
are very technically demanding and there is absolutely no way to
push them to the right limit on the slopy stringing.
I do think that gut enables you to articulate better and when needed
play faster and indeed produce better contrasts. The lute with gut
is just a different instrument. Very different... It feels correct:)


--



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Objet : Re: Switching between gut strings and synthetics?

[Jarosław Lipski]

I'll second that!
JL

- Original Message - 
From: chriswi...@yahoo.com

To: Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Daniel Winheld dwinh...@comcast.net
Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 6:21 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Objet : Re: Switching between gut strings and 
synthetics?




Dan,

--- On Fri, 1/29/10, Daniel Winheld dwinh...@comcast.net wrote:


we finally agreed that the serious
lute
player just has to have two of every lute- one in
synthetics for gigs
and one in gut to keep himself honest.



Ah, the HIP police!  There's nothing honest about using modern strings 
made by modern makers that happen to be made of the same material as the 
old ones.  And, by implication, nothing dishonest or unserious about a 
player using synthetics!  There is a gigantic litany of observable 
differences between modern strings and period depictions and descriptions. 
We can call them both gut strings, but ours simply are NOT THE SAME 
STRINGS that were used in olden days.


In sum:

Are synthetic strings close to the sound of old guts?  Dunno.  Are modern 
guts any closer?  Dunno.


Let's call the whole thing off.

Chris






To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Terminology: brise

[Jarosław Lipski]

I am not talking about the technique itself, but the name asociated with 
technique. i.e. Perrine described how to brake chords, but never used the 
term style brise. And in general we were discussing wheteher one can call 
the term style brise modern or not. I am not saying we can't use the name, 
however it is quite important to find some evidence before one can claim the 
term was used in Baroque.

JL


- Original Message - 
From: Mathias Rösel mathias.roe...@t-online.de

To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 2:02 PM
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Terminology: brise



Jaroslaw Lipski jaroslawlip...@wp.pl schrieb:
Obviously we can use this term providing we know its meaning and origin. 
The
problem is that for a very long time people were using it thinking that 
this
is how the style of some French baroque lute players was described in 
past.
Harpsichord players wanted to imitate lute playing, but in general these 
are

not the terms that lute players used in Baroque (at least we know nothing
about it). Besides I really don't know why we so desperately need a name 
for

the style. Giving the name doesn't add anything to it.


It did add something, viz. arpegiated _chords_ over and over again in
many recordings. When I for the first time listened to French baroque
lute music in the mid-80ies, I thought, wow, there was jazz as early as
in the 17th century! Yet I simply couldn't understand what this music
was all about. Arpeggiated chords, that's all? Telling from available
recordings, I would never have guessed that it's all about melody.

One of the reasons why players used to play this music in shapes of
broken chords all over IMHO is that there was a name coined style brisé
which was understood as broken chords.

Mathias



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html