Re: Subversion history
HI, On 2011-06-18, at 18:08 , Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: +1 -Original Message- From: Simon Phipps [mailto:si...@webmink.com] Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 13:46 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Subversion history On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 12:55 AM, Greg Stein gst...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 19:00, Tor Lillqvist t...@iki.fi wrote: But would ASF be able to distribute such binary releases (and the corresponding sources) that include non-Oracle LGPL bits? Probably not, but in more recent years, we've been talking about how to distribute non-ALv2 from ASF hardware. Essentially along the lines of, this is not ASF software; we are providing it here as a convenience. We just don't want to mislead people to think they are Apache releases or Apache-licensed. Identifying the archival releases that need to be saved is important, regardless. Maybe the TDF could distribute those, or maybe OSU/OSL or one of our mirror providers. I've got to believe that a volunteer provider would be willing to hold the archives. One viable option would be to approach archive.org and ask them to host the legacy releases (naturally we'd need to help make it happen). In fact, it might also be smart to try to host a snapshot of the entire OO.o site there before there's a full transition from Oracle to Apache. I've sent an enquiry to their info alias to get their views. S. For what it's worth, as many have noted, I'm sure, OOo uses for distribution a host—a vast host—of volunteer mirrors. Many include legacy releases already. I suggest more generally we approach new problems with new solutions but keep in mind what's worked in the past in similar circumstances. louis
The Old OOo Site
Hi, I periodically (read: every day) receive requests from OOo community members and OOo users to fix, alter or otherwise change the OOo site (www.openoffice.org). These requests include such things as expunging private information as well as normal updates. As we all know, the old OOo site is pretty much in the past, and we are progressively moving to the new. But: I'd like to have some more concrete information to provide, and ideally, be able to address the requests, too. Thanks Louis -the person formerly known as the OOo Community Manager
Hello again….
Hi all, It's been quite a while, but I am coming out of lurking. I wanted to see the new OOo community develop, and also had to get my own business in order. Being intermittent in one's participation is not the best strategy. I've been keeping up with the discussions, and really have to applaud the entire team, especially Rob and Dennis, whom I communicate with on the ODF lists and calls, for their terrific public work on behalf of the effort. Thanks. And I'd like to help in that continuing process of communication. There are a few obvious areas, I think. One is communicating to would-be contributor companies which want to use trademarked materials, such as the logo of OpenOffice.org, on their products; another would be to further clarify how and where contributors can work on, say, extensions, but also templates and localizations. And then there's the ODF. We did this all—provide information—when OOo was just getting going, and we continued doing it throughout its first lifetime. Well…. Cheers, Louis
Re: The Old OOo Site
On 8 November 2011 11:49, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Louis Suárez-Potts lo...@apache.org wrote: Hi, I periodically (read: every day) receive requests from OOo community members and OOo users to fix, alter or otherwise change the OOo site (www.openoffice.org). These requests include such things as expunging private information as well as normal updates. As we all know, the old OOo site is pretty much in the past, and we are progressively moving to the new. But: I'd like to have some more concrete information to provide, and ideally, be able to address the requests, too. Hopefully there is not a lot of personal information on the public website. There is not. We at OOo also had a high bar—OOo site was predicated on the Apache model, and that's no coincidence: Brian B. had a hand in both. However, personal info does creep in when people erroneously post their private information, such as phone numbers, to public lists, unaware—!!— just how public the lists are. But this does happen, with mailing list archives, for example. Apache has a policy for this. It essentially sets a high bar for removing information from public archives: http://apache.org/foundation/public-archives.html For other information on the website, I'd recommend having them enter an issue in Bugzilla, classified as the www product. Hopefully we'll be cutting over to the new Apache-hosted version of these pages soon, and we can apply requested changes then. Rob, you don't get just how naive some of the users of OOo are and how naive even those posting to the lists were. Perhaps you are unaware of how popular OOo remains? Few of these users would even know how to file an issue. Of course, if there is something of a truly urgent nature, then escalate that, via ooo-private if appropriate. I am referring to www.openoffice.org/ You have not answered the question—but I didn't think you could. The point is double: 1. Can I alter the old site, www.openoffice.org/ 2. When will the old site fully migrate to the new, and when that happens, what sort of content control would I (or someone like me) have? thanks louis Thanks Louis -the person formerly known as the OOo Community Manager
Re: The Old OOo Site
Hi On 8 November 2011 15:52, eric b eric.bach...@free.fr wrote: Le 8 nov. 11 à 17:38, Louis Suárez-Potts a écrit : Hi, I periodically (read: every day) receive requests from OOo community members and OOo users to fix, alter or otherwise change the OOo site (www.openoffice.org). These requests include such things as expunging private information as well as normal updates. As we all know, the old OOo site is pretty much in the past, and we are progressively moving to the new. But: I'd like to have some more concrete information to provide, and ideally, be able to address the requests, too. Thanks Louis -the person formerly known as the OOo Community Manager The previous Community management was a total mess. I hope we will not redo the same errors. I'll almost ignore the implied insult. It's irrelevant and beside the point. I am not being paid at all to do what I did before, which was to do the impossible, of representing both corporate interests and community desires and trying to reconcile and move ahead productively. Rather, as my post ought to suggest, I am simply interested in helping out those who are still posting requests to me, and certainly would be quite interested in helping those who are doing work on the new site. This is a new project, for all I can see, and its management (a term more or less unused and undefined and unwanted in Apache-land, afaict)—is really up to those who are doing things. I personally would really rather like to see new things arise from this new effort and new community esprit de corps evolve, not tired, bickering legacy things. Louis Eric Bachard -- qɔᴉɹə Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: The Old OOo Site
Hi Dave, [First, of course, I've been following you, Kay [howdy KS!] and others as the site has osmotically moved over to Apache; and that it has reached the point it has to a large degree prompts my intervention (as they say in academia, referring to participation in a conversation). You guys really have done brilliantly, and it very much makes me believe that the new site, the new project, the new effort has every expectation of succeeding and doing far better than ever the old did.] On 8 November 2011 12:05, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net wrote: On Nov 8, 2011, at 8:55 AM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote: On 8 November 2011 11:49, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Louis Suárez-Potts lo...@apache.org wrote: Hi, I periodically (read: every day) receive requests from OOo community members and OOo users to fix, alter or otherwise change the OOo site (www.openoffice.org). These requests include such things as expunging private information as well as normal updates. As we all know, the old OOo site is pretty much in the past, and we are progressively moving to the new. But: I'd like to have some more concrete information to provide, and ideally, be able to address the requests, too. Hopefully there is not a lot of personal information on the public website. There is not. We at OOo also had a high bar—OOo site was predicated on the Apache model, and that's no coincidence: Brian B. had a hand in both. However, personal info does creep in when people erroneously post their private information, such as phone numbers, to public lists, unaware—!!— just how public the lists are. But this does happen, with mailing list archives, for example. Apache has a policy for this. It essentially sets a high bar for removing information from public archives: http://apache.org/foundation/public-archives.html For other information on the website, I'd recommend having them enter an issue in Bugzilla, classified as the www product. Hopefully we'll be cutting over to the new Apache-hosted version of these pages soon, and we can apply requested changes then. Rob, you don't get just how naive some of the users of OOo are and how naive even those posting to the lists were. Perhaps you are unaware of how popular OOo remains? Few of these users would even know how to file an issue. Of course, if there is something of a truly urgent nature, then escalate that, via ooo-private if appropriate. I am referring to www.openoffice.org/ You have not answered the question—but I didn't think you could. The point is double: 1. Can I alter the old site, www.openoffice.org/ Yes, but please keep us informed as a lot has been ported to ooo-site.apache.org Right, of course; as it happens, I just tried to change some content on the old site, using CVS and couldn't. I'll have to re-add my ssh2 key, but not sure—have not checked today—if I even have admin privileges there any longer. 2. When will the old site fully migrate to the new, and when that happens, what sort of content control would I (or someone like me) have? The whole of the new site at ooo-site is under the Apache CMS and can be edited with the webgui by a committer. Patches accepted from others. Yes, and I'll see if at some point I merit commit status to the new site. But do we have a schedule of delivery? I ask not to be annoying—I do that anyway—but so that I can communicate that to those asking me about it. See the podling site for instructions. Others can give details as I have to run. Thanks, I shall, and enjoy. Wish I were able to join you in ApacheCon—but say hi to my friends there, including my colleague Rory and also Zak. BR, Dave Ciao Louis thanks louis Thanks Louis -the person formerly known as the OOo Community Manager
Re: [Request] create ooo-disc...@incubator.apache.org mailing list
On 8 November 2011 17:48, Shane Curcuru a...@shanecurcuru.org wrote: As a mentor, I have two comments: - When requesting a new mailing list, it is critical to clearly define the focus and expected community that would use a list. In particular, showing specific threads on other lists that would be better moved to the new list is helpful to give others a detailed explanation of the kinds of things a new list proposer would expect to see on the new list. Creating new email lists is simple technically, but should be approached with caution in terms of the effects of splitting community energy. - I highly recommend that people view through the slides for the well-respected How Open Source Projects Survive Poisonous People set of slides: https://sites.google.com/site/io/how-open-source-projects-survive-poisonous-people The talk is worth watching, but for those short on time the slides are worth reading. In particular, the aspects about how communities of many different kinds of people (the vast majority who are not poisonous, by the way!) can effectively work together on public mailing lists. A key slide is pp 5, and pp7 as a followup: Attention and Focus These are your scarcest resources You must protect them - Shane Hi, I would second Shane's point. But we went through this routinely at OOo. Our policy—devised pretty much by Stefan and me but agreed upon by quite a few leads—was the the fewer the lists the better, and that lists must have a raison d'être; but that focus was played second to the larger desire to have more conversations than hardly any at all. In short, it was better to have somewhat noisy lists than to have lists that were not noisy at all but also not attended to, as the more interesting conversations were where the people went. Our policy was (and is, I suppose) posted at http://www.openoffice.org/mail_list.html, which I originally wrote about 10 years ago and updated periodically. I also had policies, drafted in consort and collaboration with the other project leads (I led many projects in OOo) regarding poisonous people, and what to do about them in order to preserve the value of the community. Again, the former OOo was a little schizoid and played at being both a user site and a developer portal; and it probably did both badly, though for different reasons. I would hope that we focus here on one or the other and be clear—as in transparent and accountable—in the Apache way, as to what we want and hope to get. Louis former OOo community manager, chair of the erstwhile council, lead of Native-Lang, Marketing, Website, Distribution, Education, Business, Incubator Category; primary content writer for the first several years, too, I suppose, and chief spokesperson of the project; now the project's representative on all three ODF TCs at Oasis, as well as its representative to Software in the Public Interest.
Re: representing OOo (was Re: [Request] create ooo-disc...@incubator.apache.org mailing list)
Hi, On 9 November 2011 05:25, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 8 November 2011 19:23, Louis Suárez-Potts lsuarezpo...@gmail.com wrote: ... now the project's representative on all three ODF TCs at Oasis, as well as its representative to Software in the Public Interest. Louis, Whilst I, as a mentor, welcome you contributions here I feel compelled to point out that you are not the project's representative on all three ODF TCs at Oasis, as well as its representative to Software in the Public Interest. Actually, that's an interesting question. I don't mean to assert a stance I cannot hold legitimately, but earlier this year, when there was an OOo, I was appointed that role and OOo paid for my Oasis membership. I continue to more broadly advocate the ODF. Only PPMC members who are active and engaged with the project in an ongoing and constructive fashion can claim to be a part of the project and, even then, they are not representatives of the project. They are individuals who happen to have a *personal* opinion about the project. I fully understand. I raised this issue with some members of the Oasis ODF TCs. Again, I don't mean to assert untenable or illegitimate stances. Occasionally the PPMC may appoint someone to speak for the project in various forums. To my knowledge the OOo PPMC has not yet granted approval for anyone to speak on the projects behalf. Is this an important point? Probably not in the bigger scheme of things. However, this is a podling learning how ASF projects work and therefore, as a mentor, I feel compelled to point out that a signature of this form is not appropriate in an Apache Project - regardless of how constructive your contributions are. Thanks. This gets confusing, if not for me (it isn't), then outside of my own particular carapace. What I'll do is re-cast my shadow to be representing me, Louis, in personae Louis, and if my interests and those of Apache OOo coincide, then whoopee. Cheers, louis Ross -- Ross Gardler (@rgardler) Programme Leader (Open Development) OpenDirective http://opendirective.com
Re: [DISCUSS][WWW] Current Polish web site -- pl.openoffice.org
Hi, On 9 November 2011 18:06, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net wrote: On Nov 9, 2011, at 2:19 PM, Kay Schenk wrote: As many of you may know, per Dave's announcement about a week or so ago, we have a staging site of *MOST* (we're still finding areas that need to be re-pulled for one reason or another), of the (old) current OO.o site at: http://ooo-site.apache.org Right now, I have a question about the existing pl (Polish) site at http://pl.openoffice.org/ Does anyone on this list know anything about the history of the Polish site -- why this group decided to basically make a duplicate of the OpenOffice.org site but translated? None of the other N-L sites have gone to this length so I'm just curious about it. Yes, I know much about it. Its history is complicated and its communities even more so. But its current lead (of PL group working on OOo, if not entirely only on OOo itself) has simplified things. Is it bigger than the German site? No. Also, at this point in our migration plans, do we have anyone here who is willing to continue to maintain the pl site as it stands? I can ask the former lead; cc'd here. He is Marcin Milkowski. I think we want to check it in, but then we may want to then remove most of each N-L site (they will be in SVN!) Yes. As the (former/current) lead of the N-L category, which I founded, I can surely help here in communicating to the interested leads the updates and plans. Also note, this site has not yet been ported over to the staging site. Noted. Do we have a schedule (that I've surely missed) of migrations/port? And finally, I am having a few problems getting my recent changes to the N-L page to actually publish so no fun link from the staging home page yet. http://ooo-site.apache.org/ I see. Sigh; sounds so much like old times. I published these just now. Warning - using the webgui the first time on ooo-site it is suggested that you brew a cup of coffee and come back in 10 minutes. I've discussed the foo.openoffice.org/bar to www.openoffice.org/foo/bar permanent redirect for the ooo-site Virtual Host and openoffice.org DNS with Joe today - we should specify a full list of the subdomains that will fit this pattern and add it to https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-3933 Please. When the time comes to go live Infra will handle the rest of the detail. Okay, let's keep us all informed….. Regards, Dave Cheers, Louis -former this, that, and the other thing. Now, just former (un)king of the zombies? ;-)
Re: [VOTE] Trademark and Brand
Hi, On 9 November 2011 22:47, Donald Harbison dpharbi...@gmail.com wrote: As promised, here's the ballot. Choose one, cast your vote. If none of them get more than 50% of the binding votes, we will start a ballot for the top two contenders. a) Apache OpenOffice.org b) Apache OpenOffice c) Apache Open Office d) Apache Office The ballot is open for a full 7 day week closing 12:00 p.m. EST ( UTC - 5 ) on Wednesday, November 16, 2011. I vote for b) Apache OpenOffice. [OT, and surely dumb: what happens to the old name, OpenOffice.org? Apache now owns it, I believe. If the answer is long, and I expect it is, and if it's already been answered, then just point me away and I'll find it. If not, let's answer it? It needs address if only because there are *many* companies and orgs. using it.] -louis
Re: [DISCUSS][WWW] Native-Language Sites (was: Current Polish web site -- pl.openoffice.org)
Hi, On 10 November 2011 13:46, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: It is not clear to me whether the diversity in N-L pages was by design or simply from lack of coordination. Intentional. My purpose in permitting the project leads in N-L (and for that matter, all the other projects) was based on two principals: 1. pragmatic reality: I didn't have the time to inspect, police, correct all that I envisioned being created, nor did I want to; 2. I believed then and believe now that local autonomy allows for fastest growth and expansion. And I was right. That said, I did have some provisions in place. No ads, for instance, and no offensive material; and the trademarked material could not be altered. As well, I encouraged colour coherence, and, of course, strongly urged parsimony when it came to creating project lists. License had to be the same as the domain-wide licenses. (We did grudgingly allow for some projects to differ, e.g., the Authors' group associated with Documentation, as they strongly argued for CC licenses. As well, the wikis we used could have been clearer as to which licenses were permitted and what the relation of the wiki was to the other domain projects.) Charles and I posted suggestions at http://native-lang.openoffice.org/ (Charles was effectively appointed to front the N-L category but did little in actually scripting the policies or imposing them.) Just has, for example, all Apache pages have a similar navigational structure, as well as mandatory content, I think we should enforce the same for N-L pages. Remember, these pages represent the AOOo project, and therefore Apache, to visitors who may never see the main English project page. So we need to make sure that all of our bases are covered in on that page: license, how to download, ToU, mailing lists, support forums, etc. And this needs to be done for any entry point the user makes. So I think we're better off with a cookie cutter approach for the webpages, with specific areas for extensibility according to N-L needs. I agree. The issue with the wiki on OOo is a case in point. We need to make it very clear at the outset. There were several attempts to do this, and we can repurpose them, I daresay. The license and aesthetic claims for N-L projects can also be a) repurposed and b) strengthened, if that is our desire. I think at this point, it is. But we also have to clarify what the N-L projects are to be about, if we wish to reconstitute them. On OOo, I designed them to be about education, information, and local marketing; not coding, though localization was strongly encouraged. Primarily, the N-L projects differed from l10n, where coding and much localization was done, in that discussions on N-L lists were in the native tongue of the speakers. I saw this as important and as a powerful lever to open the market. I was right. (That said, it was always my goal and design that the N-L projects would evolve to include more development. There were very few developers of OOo code, and my reasoning was that by progressively introducing OOo both as a product for users in their language, and as a community who operates in their language, and as code they can work with—they would take to it, either out of personal desire or for commercial reasons, even though all code discussions had to be in English. Again, it seemed I was not incorrect in this reasoning, but it just took too long and I had too little support from the contributor companies who by and large could not see the point of the N-Ls anyway.) But I'm not sure that Apache would be right for that kind of logistic, where there are any number of projects operating in the native tongue of the speaker, though where all coding discussions must be in English. However, I do think re-using (or just using plus updates) the extant language for the OOo N-L projects ought to be considered. -louis -louis
Re: Shutdown of openoffice.org email forwarder: How to notify users
Rob, On 10 November 2011 11:05, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: It looks like the email forwarder will not be migrating to Apache. Right We don't want this to be a surprise to users. We want them to have ample notice to adjust to this change. I'd like to have a discussion on how we can best do this, and to see if there are any volunteers to help with this. ==Plan 1== Publish details on AOOo wiki page, and publicize via mailing lists, website and social media. We can make a wiki page that covers: 1) Clear statement that the forwarding service is going away, why and when? 2) What will happen with emails sent to these addresses (we are not storing any emails, we do not touch them. They will be bounced and the sender will get an error message) 3) What the user needs to do (notify people and services that send emails to their openoffice.org address and ask them to update their address books and records with the new address) 4) Where to go for more informaiton/questions (maybe ooo-users?) If we can get that written up, perhaps with some translations, then we can get the message out via: 1 Apache and legacy OOo mailing lists 2. website home page (both AOOo and OOo) 3. Facebook, Twitter, Google+ This is similar to what we are doing with the mailing list migration. It is low tech, easy to roll out. ==Plan 2== Bulk notification of all 500,000 forwarding accounts that the service is going away. Same information as above, including translations, but pushed to users. This approach would require Oracle to send the notifications. I'm am not certain this is feasible. It is not; it is also not correct to presume that all members of OOo (more than 500K, probably) would even know what you are talking about. I would argue for plan 1 and further have a bulletin posted to OOo (this can be done) alerting people of it. It would also give me the chance then to announce the closure of OOo, and its new life as a new thing for old people like me (and young-uns, too). cheers, louis ==Plan 3== Like Plan 2, but if Oracle is not able to send bulk notifications. We could extract addresses from public sources, including Bugzilla, legacy OOo mailing lists, etc., and send these notices ourselves. ==Plan 4== Another solution would be to take advantage of the period of time when the mail forwarding service is still working to notify users. For example, take the following scenario: a@foo,com sends an email to b...@openoffice.org, which is then forwarded to b...@bar.com Until the email forwarder goes down, we insert an extra step to cause an additional email to be sent to b...@bar.com, letting them know that the forwarding service will be going down. This is a way to notify all active users of the forwarding service. Any ideas for other approaches? Any volunteers to work on any of these approaches? Regards, -Rob
OOo Business...
I continue (naturally) to receive many requests from businesses (small and large) to use the trademarked OpenOffice.org logo. I generally pass on these, as there seemed, until very recently, a mystery on how to proceed. I'm still in need of enlightenment, and would appreciate some guidance. * I think it's pointless to endorse OpenOffice.org at this point. The probable name of its successor will be Apache OpenOffice or some variant thereof. And that new name will come into play very soon indeed. We will need to progressively inform all those using the old logo/name/trademark to switch over with new installation sets. * I would therefore like to be able to respond to those requesting use of the trademark, etc., to wait a little bit, and then to return to us—preferably to a wiki or even better, an automated service, such as we used on OOo, for this. (The automated service allowed us to docket requests and act more expeditiously, while also giving room for more fully understanding the request. Otherwise, the requests were simply sent to a list I set up for this and which John, Florian, and I managed for several years, though it really seems like an eternity—and John was doing much of the work.) — I also receive many (well, a few) requests and inquiries about contributing to OpenOffice.org code. (Rob has been included in one such.) Right now, it's a little easier to tell people what to do—join Apache's lists for OOo in the Incubator, participate, contribute. But not all requests are quite so simple. For instance, what about templates? Extensions? I have no problem with telling people to join the lists where the contributions are, and to proceed according to the Apache way (tao of apache?) but perhaps there are other answers I should give? (Oh, and I have no problem whatsoever with others taking on this role. I've just been doing it as an extension of my previous existence modulo OOo, not as an assertion of nonexistent authority.) Thanks louis
Re: [DISCUSS][WWW] Current Polish web site -- pl.openoffice.org
Hi On 10 November 2011 12:40, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net wrote: I have noticed as each N-L project is ported that they are all unique. Each community has made its own choices about what is in the site. At the ASF the PPMC must be responsible for governing the project. We must find a way to be a global community, yet we also need to follow a few rules. I quite agree. The issue with us, was that we needed—or I felt we needed—to grow exponentially, and fast. But at this point, I do believe that autonomy is great, but autonomy without community is a nonstarter, and a community only can sustain itself by agreeing to core beliefs and practices. As we no longer have corporate overlords here in Apache land, and as we really are a community driven thing, a res publica, then I would suggest that one of our topmost orders of business be the communal crafting and articulation and posting of a manifesto—a declaration of identity within Apache—that gives guidance as well as identity to Apache OO's members/contributors. Cheers louis
Re: Help Docs Proprietary Documentation
hi On 10 November 2011 15:26, Danese Cooper dan...@gmail.com wrote: You'll want to ask Andrew Rist. I thought I just did :-) Louis D On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 12:19 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts lo...@apache.orgwrote: During the last year of OOo @ Oracle, a lot of rather good material was created to help/train users fresh (or forgetful) to OpenOffice.org and Oracle Open Office. This material as created by Oracle was proprietary: O owned it. So, my query. What has become of it? It has little value, as far as I can tell, for Oracle, at this point. But it would prove immensely useful for many constituting the OOo (now AOO, I'd guess) ecosystem. (Building that ecosystem was one of my primary tasks, and I like to think I did fairly well at it.) Does anyone know what happened to the material? And, if Apache now has it, can we license it or simply permit it for ecosystem use under the appropriate conditions and license? My preference would be to make all training and educational material free (in all senses) and to recuperate costs with actual services provided. Thanks Louis
Re: OOo Business...
Rob, On 10 November 2011 16:09, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: Could we use Bugzilla for this? Even if the interface is too geeky for the requester, any of us could quickly transcribe the request into a new issue for tracking and workflow. Let's follow Don's and Dave's suggestions and then go from there. But to answer your query: sure…. but imagine standing under a hot shower: nice. Then imagine standing under a waterfall, say the Victoria Falls. Not nice. :-) Anything that places a human agent, especially unpaid, in the role of doing something tedious but also important like this day in and day out risks too much. It is better to take our experience seriously and implement, as much as possible, vetted automagical tools that nevertheless allow us room to scrutinize. lsp
Re: OOo Business...
Hi, On 10 November 2011 17:17, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net wrote: On Nov 10, 2011, at 2:05 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote: Rob, On 10 November 2011 16:09, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: Could we use Bugzilla for this? Even if the interface is too geeky for the requester, any of us could quickly transcribe the request into a new issue for tracking and workflow. Let's follow Don's and Dave's suggestions and then go from there. But to answer your query: sure…. but imagine standing under a hot shower: nice. Then imagine standing under a waterfall, say the Victoria Falls. Not nice. :-) Anything that places a human agent, especially unpaid, in the role of doing something tedious but also important like this day in and day out risks too much. It is better to take our experience seriously and implement, as much as possible, vetted automagical tools that nevertheless allow us room to scrutinize. If this truly is a fire hose of requests then it probably needs its own list which can examined from time to time and then followed up on. Uhm. I think a list is good… but. We did that at OOo, and it worked so-so and then not well at all. We used logos@marketing, and the idea was to make it open to all, so that they could freely and without logging in ask for permission (my idea to ask for permission—heretical in an open source environment, it seemed—but also pleasing to the corporate owners to control distribution of the trademark or at least know of its distribution). The result was the expected: Spam Heaven or Hell, depending. With time, we (Stefan, mainly) erected a Web front on services, http://surveys.services.openoffice.org/surveys/index.php?sid=31881lang=en, though I don't know if it's operational, still (just checked and it seems kaput). But it was a simple survey script asking fairly innocuous questions that can and ought to be refined to suit the present need. Once a requester filled out the form and submitted it, the responsables got it. In this case that meant those employed by Sun and then Oracle and in leadership roles. Earlier, the request list managing was pretty much delegated entirely to the Marketing leads. For routine requests: humans did not have to do anything. If someone wanted to deploy the trademark and agreed to do so according to the rules and guidelines, great. If they had a more complicated request, such as altering the code to include their contribution (say, a proprietary extension), then this would be treated by a registered human (me! or a reasonable facsimile thereof). If someone was violating our trademark—this, shockingly, happens, even now—I would proceed by sending notices and hint at darker powers (the Sun or Oracle legal staff), escalating as needed. Usually wasn't needed. And so on. The idea was to minimize the human intervention and to make it easier to promulgate and proliferate the app. and grow the community. The subject controls the type and some set of PPMC volunteers can be delegated to check. How many requests are received in a month? The quantity: Much of it when we only used the logos@ list, was spam. When we started using the Web interface, the number dropped precipitously and it became manageable by regular humans. But once we go public again with our new(ed) existence, I'd imagine that not only would extant deployers want to use the new logo, but that there will be a flood of new requests, and I think we ought to make it easier on us all. I can't give an accurate number right now, as the Web page is off. But I'd say toward the end about 10 or so; but that was using the Web interface, which evaded the spam effect. Regards, Dave Cheers, Louis
Re: OOo Business...
hi On 11 November 2011 05:39, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 10 November 2011 14:53, Louis Suárez-Potts lsuarezpo...@gmail.com wrote: Uhm. I think a list is good… but. ... I can't give an accurate number right now, as the Web page is off. But I'd say toward the end about 10 or so; but that was using the Web interface, which evaded the spam effect. 10 or so is not enough for a new list. We need to KISS [1] I really would rather not have a new list but would really rather have a web front that obviates the need of a list and which effectively (I should think) evade spam. If someone wants to take the time to write a web interface I'm pretty sure we'd all be grateful, but I'm not sure I'd be willing to spend my time on that. Creating clearer documentation is a different issue. \ Any chance we can port the one used by OOo? (And that q. could stand for other useful bits.) I look forward to seeing contributions to that documentation. Ross Cheers, Louis [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KISS_principle
Re: ODF Plugfest in Gouda, NL (17th+18th Nov. 2011)
Unfortunately, I shall not be able to go. My loss. Louis On 11 November 2011 04:33, Oliver-Rainer Wittmann orwittm...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi, Thanks Rob for your feedback - it is welcome. Anything else? Is somebody else from our community attending? Thanks and best regards, Oliver. On 09.11.2011 13:49, Rob Weir wrote: On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 7:14 AM, Oliver-Rainer Wittmann orwittm...@googlemail.com wrote: Hi, I want to let you know that I will attend the ODF Plugfest in Gouda, NL next week [1], [2]. As an active member of the OASIS ODF TC (since Dec. 2006) and a long-term developer of OpenOffice.org (since July 2002) I was attending the ODF Plugfest since it got started in 2009 - I have missed the one in Berlin in July this year due to my vacation with my family. At the former events I have shared/discuss/present my view on the work at the OASIS ODF TC and about the work which is going on in the OpenOffice.org project regarding ODF. I also represented Sun/Oracle and its products around ODF. See [3] for details. For the ODF Plugfest next week I am planning to give somehow a status update of our Apache OpenOffice.org project (incubating) from my point of view. Something like: - developers are working on the code for an IP cleared milestone - status of the migration as found at [4] - ... Any objections to do so? I think it is perfectly fine to share *facts* about the project and to encourage interested parties to join. But we need to be careful about opinions and predictions. You can have personal opinions, or even IBM opinions, but you have no officialAOOo project-authorized opinions or predictions unless it is discussed here first. I think everyone will want to know, When will we see the first Apache release of OpenOffice? Everyone wants to know this. I think we all have our opinions on this. I personally think it will be in January. But this is not something that the project has explicitly agreed to as a goal. Any further information which I can and should share on this event? Here, I want to ask Dave and Don directly for input as they are/were in Vancouver presenting/discussing our project ;-) Maybe some mention also of the Apache ODF Toolkit, which is also under incubation: http://incubator.apache.org/odftoolkit/ Are there other project members attending the ODF Plugfest in Gouda? If yes, it would be a great opportunity to get in touch personally as members of the same project. Best regards, Oliver. [1] http://odfplugfest.org/2011-gouda/ [2] http://plugtest.opendocsociety.org/doku.php [3] http://plugtest.opendocsociety.org/doku.php?id=plugfests:200906_thehague:participants:oliver-rainer_wittmann [4] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/OpenOffice.org+Migration+Status
Re: Is it time for a build machine?
Have you looked at what we were doing in OOo? If still up, you can see the releases notes and also the relevant tools.openoffice.org project pages, as well as qa.openoffice.org Am in wrong in believing it's good not to throw out the baby with the bathwater….? Louis On 14 November 2011 20:41, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 8:29 PM, Gavin McDonald ga...@16degrees.com.au wrote: -Original Message- From: Rob Weir [mailto:robw...@apache.org] Sent: Tuesday, 15 November 2011 11:21 AM To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Is it time for a build machine? It looks like we have several options, described here: http://ci.apache.org/ Does anyone have an opinion on which one we should use? Although getting this to work across multiple platforms will be a big effort, we don't need to do it all at once. Getting a single platform up and running would not be very difficult, for example Buildbot with Linux. And we would benefit from even that. For example, this would enable non-developers to grab builds to test. As you've probably noticed, we've had a few people ask how they could help with testing. But without builds the only ones who can test are those who can build AOOo themselves. I'm poking around at the doc here: http://buildbot.net/buildbot/docs/current/full.html I've also signed up for the bui...@apache.org list. But I could really use some help to move this forward. So, if you are interested in helping, let me know. Note an issue has already been created. https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/INFRA-4086 OK. One step ahead of me. That's a good place to be ;-) Not sure if your thinking is the same as Andrews. Very close, at least for the core build part. Gav... Thanks! -Rob
Re: Is it time for a build machine?
Ross, On 14 November 2011 21:44, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: All services currently hosted by Oracle will be turned off at some point. OpenOffice.org now belongs to the Apache Software Foundation. It is our responsibility to provide what the PPMC requests of us, wherever possible, to keep the project running. Wherever possible this will be the same facilities we provide for all other ASF projects. However, the PPMC is free to request other facilities if they are required. I see I was not clear enough; apologies. I meant that we were following certain rather good (as in producing good stuff) protocols in the OpenOffice.org project related to, among other things, releases. My point had nothing to do with equipment or technological services provided by any megacorporation, let alone Oracle :-). It had to do with process. Louis
Re: Is it time for a build machine?
Ah, On 14 November 2011 22:59, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: Sorry, my jetlag made me miss the were in the above sentence. Ignore my comment. And I was multitasking too much, while listening to dreary news reports about those with so much more money (and so little social consciousness) than we'll ever see. Louis
Re: Time for the ASF to send an Open Letter?
Jim, I'd be happy to help draft this and promote it. As you may know, I've been wanting to send such a letter, anyway, and have independently been making efforts to communicate to the ecosystems (note plural). Further, as I was fairly instrumental in setting many of these up and certainly in promoting them, I hope my effort would be helpful. -louis On 15 November 2011 12:46, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: I have been mulling this over for a long time... Up to now, we have been reactionary. We have allowed others to control and distort the message, paint things as a us vs. them battle (simply to position themselves for personal gain in the whole debacle), and foster FUD to the clear harm of the ENTIRE OOo ecosystem. I think it's time that an Open Letter to the entire Open Office ecosystem (companies, entities, individuals, etc...) be drafted that sets the record straight. And I volunteer to drive this task... Comments?
Re: Time for the ASF to send an Open Letter?
Hi, On 15 November 2011 13:31, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: Partly, I can see a number of FUDisms to address. Like there are only 2 main players within the Open Office ecosystem (Apache and TDF) and that people need to choose between one or the other; that the various versions compete against each other instead of complimenting each other; Why the AL is important for such a standard such as Open Office and ODF; how there is much more potential for Open Office than as just a end-user MS Office replacement; etc… There are more. I'd like to see us then establish a deadline for this, as well as, if it is within the protocols of Apache, the group drafting it (?). FWIW, OOo had a list, pr@, that drafted such sorts of things, in addition to the release announcements. It was private in that you had to be a member of the project to see the work, but it was by no means secret, as just about anybody could join the project and thus see the work being done. (We had the normal issues regarding secrecy, privacy, Foss, and marketing.) -louis
Re: Time for the ASF to send an Open Letter?
Hi, On 15 November 2011 14:38, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net wrote: Louis, On Nov 15, 2011, at 10:37 AM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote: Jim, I'd be happy to help draft this and promote it. As you may know, I've been wanting to send such a letter, anyway, and have independently been making efforts to communicate to the ecosystems (note plural). Further, as I was fairly instrumental in setting many of these up and certainly in promoting them, I hope my effort would be helpful. As I explore the N-L portions of the OOo website the diversity of and facets to this global effort is amazing. You have played a huge role. I think a summary / taxonomy of the real global ecosystem would be a helpful history to have available to AOOo. Is this something you could start on the Wiki? Sure; of course, as with any thing like this, my efforts have only been possible, let alone realized with the collaboration of others—many others. But I think rather than a history, as such, or even a chronology, an accounting of what is going on, and evolving, would be more to the point, with local histories providing the narrative (e.g., history of OOo in Romania, or efforts to get it going in Botswana, France, etc.). My interest lies in continuing the expansion and depth of OOo (now, I'd guess, AOO) development and use. The N-L sites are an area where AOOo is on the cusp of deciding which ones to archive until people show up and which ones have volunteers who wish to participate. That was the idea. But a purposeful failure—as with the build system that Mathias pointed out as non reproducible except by those of the Sysyphean persuasion—was established first by Sun and brilliantly so: the non provision and allocation of resources to education of developers. It matters little if we have contributors only to find that we have no easy way to graduate them to developers. Regards, Dave Best, louis -louis On 15 November 2011 12:46, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: I have been mulling this over for a long time... Up to now, we have been reactionary. We have allowed others to control and distort the message, paint things as a us vs. them battle (simply to position themselves for personal gain in the whole debacle), and foster FUD to the clear harm of the ENTIRE OOo ecosystem. I think it's time that an Open Letter to the entire Open Office ecosystem (companies, entities, individuals, etc...) be drafted that sets the record straight. And I volunteer to drive this task... Comments?
Re: Time for the ASF to send an Open Letter?
On 15 November 2011 14:41, Alexandro Colorado j...@openoffice.org wrote: great but we need to get more people from NLCs and forums and others involved. Then let's do what we did before, and start with the flakes left over from the avalanche and once again build a true and open community. Keep in mind: there is a huge audience for OOo (or Libre) and they will be interested in current code—code that is advancing and that is developing for contemporary (read: mobile, cloud) uses, among other things. louis On 11/15/11, Jim Jagielski j...@jagunet.com wrote: On Nov 15, 2011, at 1:02 PM, Simon Phipps wrote: Who are your targets, Jim? I believe I mentioned them in the original post... In summary: the entire Open Office ecosystem. -- Alexandro Colorado OpenOffice.org Español http://es.openoffice.org
Re: Blog Draft: OpenOffice.org Migration -- The Community Forums
Out of curiosity (and dumbness, I guess), I suppose I need a separate login/pwd to post to the blog? or to view the link below? Louis On 15 November 2011 16:21, Marcus (OOo) marcus.m...@wtnet.de wrote: This link should do it: https://blogs.apache.org/roller-ui/authoring/preview/OOo/?previewEntry=openoffice_org_migration_the_community (in the edit view of Roller click on the button below Full Preview) Marcus Am 11/15/2011 09:47 PM, schrieb Dennis E. Hamilton: Interesting. When I post from Windows Live Writer, I have no idea what URL Roller gives to the post, so I can't find it at the preview location. I know the post is there because Windows Live Writer can show me all of the posts that the blog has, and my post-dated one shows there. But I still don't know the correct name to plug in as post-name-goes-here https://blogs.apache.org/roller-ui/authoring/preview/OOo/?previewEntry=post-name-goes-here for review by any editors. (Because I didn't use the Roller browser UI to enter the post, I didn't have the benefit of being able to get the Preview URL from that interface.) If I don't figure this out before the day ends (UTC-0800), I will put the text of the post into an ooo-dev message. - Dennis -Original Message- From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamil...@acm.org] Sent: Monday, November 14, 2011 20:38 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Cc: 'Rob Weir'; 'RGB ES' Subject: Blog Draft: OpenOffice.org Migration -- The Community Forums A new Blog post, OpenOffice.org Migration -- The Community Forums, has been published, post-dated to 2011-11-18T01:05Z. This post should be wherever staging is available for review by editors and committers. (I post via Windows LiveWriter and I have no idea where the preview instructions are, any longer.) - Dennis -Original Message- From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamil...@acm.org] Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 13:30 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Cc: 'Rob Weir'; 'RGB ES' Subject: RE: Include link to Forums on incubator page? RGB and I and other Forum mavens are going to work something up and I'll bring it into the blog queue by end of day Monday (US PST). @Rob: Meanwhile, please go ahead and add it to the podling status file. - Dennis E. Hamilton tools for document interoperability,http://nfoWorks.org/ dennis.hamil...@acm.org gsm: +1-206-779-9430 @orcmid -Original Message- From: RGB ES [mailto:rgb.m...@gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 10:02 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Include link to Forums on incubator page? 2011/11/12 Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 9:29 AM, RGB ESrgb.m...@gmail.com wrote: AOOo Incubator page does not mention the Forums. Considering that the migration to Apache servers is now completed, maybe it is a good idea to add the Forums to the Project Info table. Cheers Ricardo I can update the podling status file to include info on the phpBB forums. Would it be possible for you, or some other forum volunteer, to draft a blog post on the forums, something that explains for an observer what they are and how to get involved? Many more people read the blog than read our podling status file. -Rob Thanks! My English level is not good enough but I'll ask for help on the forums. As soon as I have something, I'll come back. Cheers Ricardo
Re: [WWW][Policy] Rewriting contributing.openoffice.org
Hi, More shortly—have been in meetings galore for the last day… now staking tock of my shelved reeds. But... On 18 November 2011 12:36, Kay Schenk kay.sch...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 3:41 PM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net wrote: Hi All, There are several parts to the migration of openoffice.org website. One area that needs attention is rewriting contributing.openoffice.org to fit ASF and AOO policies. (Policies may need to be written and discussed.) On the current main www.openoffice.org page, contributing is accessed from the fifth button - I want to participate in OpenOffice.org Volunteers are needed to take leadership of and contribute to this rewrite. Any committer can do this work. I suggest that a directory be created within the podling site called contributing. Within that directory there should be an index.mdtext and as many subpages as required. Once completed, I can do an svn copy or move to the ooo-site tree. Before actually doing the work, let me propose a radical simplification. AOO is organizationally flat, so we don't have all the destination sub-projects of the legacy OOo website. 1) The I want to participate link on the main page goes to a single new page. No need to be at contribute.openoffice.org. In fact, I think I'd avoid that since to participate != to contribute. Rob-- I'm not following you here. It's true that of course we are not going to follow the former project hierarchy (lucky for use the Projects tab is now gone on the setup site) that existed within OpenOffice.org, but I'm not understanding what you’re trying to say about the existing participate link on the home page that transfers to contributing.html. In the legacy OOo sense, the participate link jumped to a contribute page, contribute.html, which listed a few ways to contribute/participate, so in this sense, I think it meant the same thing (?). I think you are making a distinction between participating and contributing (?) based on actual participation -- coding, etc -- vs monetary contributions? 2) The new page has a simple couple of paragraphs. We welcome volunteers of all sorts. These are the functional areas where we need help (taken from those already listed). If you want more information you can browser our project website (the podling site) here, or send a note to our project list at ooo-dev.i.a.o. OK, in this sense, perhaps the existing contributing.html can be used with changes. Again, I'm confused about your initial distinctions I guess. I pretty much did the initial draft of the page and set the logic of what counted as participate and contribute. And I was raked over the coals by the United Developers of the World who critiqued my conflation of any old contribution with sophisticated development. Point taken, they were right, I was wrong, but the point was to grow the project and to thus justify its existence. Development would come, once the market was established. So now we are here. What do we want out of this? Do we want to re-do the strategy of yore and expand the market? I'd say, we've done that and we need now to focus on sophisticated development while encouraging and providing space for regular contributions; participations—however defined but mostly likely along the lines of, using and expressing like and so on and throwing a) parties and b) competitors' stuff out the window—also strongly encouraged. But our focus here, if I am not incorrect, is development, yes? That leaves open the problem—or delight—of working with the, uhm, 99 percent who like OOo but are not developers :-) On OOo, we created a slew of such projects to encourage their participation, as evangelism is important, and as OOo is fairly unique—or was—in that it was user-focused. However, I'd submit that it's not Apache's remit to work with this crowdsource but rather just the source. And so accordingly, the opening is for other satellite organizations that would be entrusted to use the trademark (be approved by Apache or its delegate) and further develop the limitless regional and also cloudy communities. That all said, the text should be rewritten to focus on development (as Rob wrote) and to then suggest a wiki (or so) for other sorts of valuable contributions. (I persist in believing that in a real open source endeavour, the democratic if not entirely meritocratic (how to judge? even pragmatics fail us here) participatory urges that make OOo (and its spawn) so great. I would not advise them to subscribe initially. Depending on what they are interested in we might point them to a specific list (ooo-marketing) or to the forums. I think the full ooo-dev list can be overwhelming for newbies. With this approach, the PPMC would be responsible for following up on these incoming volunteer notices and helping to orient the new volunteers. In a
Re: Non-Apache maintenance release for OOo 3.3?
Hi (Nonsense words? iPad's spellchecker.) -- Louis Suárez-Potts On 2011-11-18, at 16:12, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity. On Nov 18, 2011 7:11 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote: ... An OpenOffice.org 3.3.1 maintenance release is *not* going to be an Apache release, and not using any Apache code or licenses, I surmise. It will be on the OpenOffice.org 3.3 code base that is available under LGPL. So it is a derivative work, but not of Apache-licensed code. The press has covered the fact that OpenOffice.org is now at Apache. A release of OOo that is not from the ASF and not under the Apache license would be extremely confusing. It could potentially damage both the Apache and OOo brands. Could this be managed by our press people? Possibly, but it would require planning. Without a concrete proposal, approved by the PPMC and trademarks that planning cannot begin to start. By the time all this is done we'll be pretty close to an Apache release (if some of the predictions I've read here are to be believed). This conversation should have started months ago. I'll note that it did happen on this list and the PPMC decided to focus on the work need for an Apache release. This is the first that Team OOo have spoken of these plans. Working out a way to do this outside of the normal trademark guidelines is not going to be easy, especially without a proposal to consider. I think it's quite manageable. One need only do what we used to do with some releases, viz., more or less downplay it and emphasise that this is a maintenance one. Indeed, we can also use the occasion to point to the *new* and exciting Apache release, and to the nature of the new home. Louis Ross In some sense, that is even more reason, under normal conditions, to deny identification of that maintenance result with the OpenOffice.org name. The tension is that it is closer to an OpenOffice.org 3.3 maintenance release than anything that will ever appear as Apache OpenOffice version-whatever. And more timely. The question is under what conditions can this be allowed to be identified as part of an OpenOffice.org 3.3.x progression? - Dennis MUSINGS It seems to me that it is more straightforward to consider that the OpenOffice.org line has ended. The only thing possible, now, are derivatives of the LGPL OpenOffice.org code base (such as LibreOffice is already), other existing peers of OpenOffice.org, and the reset that Apache OpenOffice represents (and its eventual derivatives too). In that regard, it would be more appropriate for the proposed 3.3.1 maintenance release to be identified as a derivative (e.g., Team OpenOffice 3.3.1). It can make nominative use of OpenOffice.org in regard to it being a maintenance derivative of OpenOffice.org 3.3 and that aspect is settled. Other trademark issues can be resolved with Team OpenOffice and, meanwhile, the derivative can be a clean release with splash screens, About dialogs, and other insignia that do not employ Apache trademarks and symbols in any way beyond non-confusing nominative usage. There is now no confusion about the roots of the release and its independence from Apache. On the OpenOffice.org site, it should be possible to identify the existence of this derivative and link to a Team OpenOffice page that indicates its availability, solicits funds, or whatever, as a recognized peer. It is possible to link to LibreOffice in the same manner, and also other members of OpenOffice.org lineage and, other support for the ODF document format as well. The emergence of Apache OpenOffice and the steps toward incubator releases can also be featured, obviously. That, apart from complications concerning localizations and other downstream support of the 3.3.1 including user support and bug reporting against the release, would seem to be that. There is also the LGPL requirement that the source code of the release be available. I suspect that there is a desire for closer coupling than that. The problem, of course, is that the Podling can do nothing with the OpenOffice.org 3.3 LGPL code base. And my understanding is that binaries of such code shall not be distributed via Apache sites either. The Apache OpenOffice code base is not usable instead; it is not even being positioned for maintenance release of an OpenOffice.org 3.3.1 equivalent. Probably the only case would be the unlikely possibility of Oracle undertaking such a release (meaning that updates would all be under Oracle SCA though). -Original Message- From: Shane Curcuru [mailto:a...@shanecurcuru.org] Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 09:06 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Non-Apache maintenance release for OOo 3.3? On 2011-11-18 11:16 AM, Stefan Taxhet wrote: Hi Don, all, Am 17.11.2011 15:34
Re: Non-Apache maintenance release for OOo 3.3?
Hi (Nonsense words? iPad's spellchecker.) -- Louis Suárez-Potts On 2011-11-18, at 16:42, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net wrote: I wouldn't even start considering a proposal from TOOo without changes to their website where the ASF, Apache ownership of the OpenOffice.org trademark and Apache OO doesn't exist. Where the whole OOo is in trouble if people don't give TOOo donations. This must change immediately. I also agree. I would like to propose that there be a formal system whereby supporters of the Apache development (OO) can be authorised to use the relevant trademarks, and also be required in exchange to refer to the Apache OO effort. Development must take place within Apache, but at the same time, there has to be room for supporting organisations, such as, I'd say, Team OO I should add: I am not a member of TOOo, though I know the members well and have worked with them for 11 years. I also have proposed consulting for them and placing their nonprofit as a vehicle for the promotion, support, services, and advancement of AOO. In short, to be friends with Apache and to materially help with the new project--and it's ancien régime users, many of whom are governments and the like. Louis Regards,
Re: [WWW][Policy] Participate! - Rewriting contributing.openoffice.org
As the guy who created the education project on OOo, and who has long championed the goal of not only helping thru education new contributors but also of using education to promote FOSS, OOo and the ODF, I naturally think it's vital to have it. But what would be its remit? I would suggest we clarify goals. I would also like for us to work, whenever possible, with Apache's extant efforts in this area, and with cousin projects, like Mozilla. The more we team up, coordinate, collaborate, the more beer (not just speech) will be free. Louis (Nonsense words? iPad's spellchecker.) -- Louis Suárez-Potts On 2011-11-18, at 15:53, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote: +1 on addition of Education -Original Message- From: eric b [mailto:eric.bach...@free.fr] Sent: Friday, November 18, 2011 12:38 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: [WWW][Policy] Participate! - Rewriting contributing.openoffice.org Hi, Le 18 nov. 11 à 20:40, Dave Fisher a écrit : [ ... ] The c.oo.o site currently has the following categories. Programming Marketing Quality Assurance Graphics and Art Writing Helping Users User Experience Monetary Donations Language Communities I think most of the categories should be kept. If I can, I'd add the Education Project : I think we shouldn't neglect how to attract and mentor newcomers and young devs, and the Education side. Ask LibreOffice people: they copied the Education Project methods welcoming devs, introducing easy hacks, and there are very good results. Regards, Eric -- qɔᴉɹə Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
Re: [WWW][Policy] Rewriting contributing.openoffice.org
Hi (Nonsense words? iPad's spellchecker.) -- Louis Suárez-Potts On 2011-11-18, at 18:50, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: Hi Louis, I was making a much narrower point, that if I were looking to donate cash to an open source project, I would not think to look under a link that read I want to participate. That was my only point. I wasn't expressing an opinion on code versus other forms of participation Of course, but I was using the misinterpretation as a springboard: I do not want to repeat the old mistakes. The problem here was lack of clarity of identity and purpose. That's all right, usually, but as we lacked for many years the wherewithal to work all the angles, we ended up losing a lot. Hence my interest in focus.
Re: [WWW][Policy] Rewriting contributing.openoffice.org
Hi (Nonsense words? iPad's spellchecker.) -- Louis Suárez-Potts On 2011-11-18, at 21:07, MiguelAngel mari...@miguelangel.mobi wrote: El 19/11/11 0:50, Rob Weir escribió: On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts lsuarezpo...@gmail.com wrote: snip I pretty much did the initial draft of the page and set the logic of what counted as participate and contribute. And I was raked over the coals by the United Developers of the World who critiqued my conflation of any old contribution with sophisticated development. Point taken, they were right, I was wrong, but the point was to grow the project and to thus justify its existence. Development would come, once the market was established. So now we are here. What do we want out of this? Do we want to re-do the strategy of yore and expand the market? Hi Louis, I was making a much narrower point, that if I were looking to donate cash to an open source project, I would not think to look under a link that read I want to participate. That was my only point. I wasn't expressing an opinion on code versus other forms of participation. We need and welcome volunteers of all kinds. -Rob Hi Louis, Rob, Please, who is ** we **? Maybe can be misunderstood. Miguel Ángel Dunno, but it probably includes you, unless you can present an argument why it oughtn't. :-)
Re: oooforum.org
Hi, On 20 November 2011 05:38, RGB ES rgb.m...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/11/20 FR web forum ooofo...@free.fr Hello, It's a disaster for the OOo Community. These pictures are prohibited in many countries. If this forum can't be administrated correctly. I suggest to contact the hoster to close it. - Mail original - De: Peter Junge peter.ju...@gmx.org À: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Envoyé: Dimanche 20 Novembre 2011 10:33:09 Objet: oooforum.org Hi, is there any admin of oooforum.org around here? It's getting spamed with really disgusting content on the front page. Peter It's not a new situation. In fact the Community forums that are now hosted by Apache on the AOO project started four years ago because of differences with the oooforum administrator… Let's take this then as an opportunity? Clayton C used to be the admin for the forums (oooforums) but with Oracle's departure—he was with Oracle and still may be—there was, to put it mildly, a hitch. The OO forums are immensely important. They are mainly for users but not only, though that's clearly their primary user base. They are furthermore pretty much user-initiated, and thus arguably could be administered by capable community members. Was the infrastructure also ported over to Apache? Or will it be? If it will be, and if we want to continue with it, I can ask if Clayton would help with the transition, and even maintenance. It's possible he may be interested in working with some others. What we need here, and I would like to issue a call for this to the logical lists and other public fora (twitter comes to mind), is a list (and list of lists) of things that are needed, wanted, and actionable. Right now, lots needs doing but those who can do don't know they can do it, or for that matter where, and using what tools. Not all of those able and inclined read these lists. -louis Ricardo
Re: oooforum.org
Hi On 20 November 2011 13:02, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote: I suspect Louis was talking about the OpenOffice.org Community Forums that are already hosted on Apache. Actually, I was talking about both: the oooforums that were initially not on Apache, I believe, was my focus. They were maintained by us, specifically Clayton and then some others employed by Oracle and working out of the Hamburg office, but were not hosted per se by Oracle, though the licensing regime was identical, much to a lot of people's dislike. Since oooforums has never been hosted by Sun/Oracle, it is a bit dicey how some sort of merger might happen and why. On the other hand, neither OO.o Community and oooforums have a German Language forum. That is at http://www.oooforum.de aka de.OpenOffice.inf There used to be such: now it's, uhm, elsewhere. o. OpenOffice.info also has a wiki and other European language coverage too (Danish and Czech seem to be operating and not covered by OO.o Community Forums). Some degree of informal Federation and cross-communication might be possible. Consolidation seems rather premature and such an offer might even be viewed as hostile. We—or I—sketched out precisely such a federation a long time ago. Didn't go far with Sun. The idea was that if a simple level of compliance was reached, then there ought to be no reason not to include the site(s) in the domain. License should be a vehicle for market growth and contribution, not a shibboleth for exclusion. Apache no doubt has superb systems already in place that we can benefit from….? Louis - Dennis -Original Message- From: Rob Weir [mailto:robw...@apache.org] Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 05:45 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: oooforum.org On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 6:24 AM, Louis Suárez-Potts lsuarezpo...@gmail.com wrote: snip Let's take this then as an opportunity? Clayton C used to be the admin for the forums (oooforums) but with Oracle's departure—he was with Oracle and still may be—there was, to put it mildly, a hitch. I certainly see an opportunity here. This is one example of somethng I see in many other parts of the project: We'll all be far more successful if we but aside ancient grudges and divisions and try to work together at Apache. We need to acknowledge that the past is past and we have a new opportunity now to grow a community that is more diverse and more open than ever before. The OO forums are immensely important. They are mainly for users but not only, though that's clearly their primary user base. They are furthermore pretty much user-initiated, and thus arguably could be administered by capable community members. Was the infrastructure also ported over to Apache? Or will it be? I don't see the benefits of having two different forum installations at Apache. But is there anyway we could combine efforts toward a single forum at Apache? I think we could argue that a combined effort would: 1) Attract more users 2) Attract more volunteers to answer questions 3) Attract more moderators and admins to ensure the quality of the user experience 4) Would grow a larger infobase of questions and answers 5) Would eliminate redundant effort If it will be, and if we want to continue with it, I can ask if Clayton would help with the transition, and even maintenance. It's possible he may be interested in working with some others. It would be worth having a conversation about how he sees the world, and whether he thinks it is worth while to explore the possibilities. What we need here, and I would like to issue a call for this to the logical lists and other public fora (twitter comes to mind), is a list (and list of lists) of things that are needed, wanted, and actionable. Maybe start with just opening the conversation, to see whether he is receptive to further discussions. If we work it too much on our side first, that may be seen as us dictating terms. But if we start with, We'd like to chat about the current situation with two forums and how we might best improve things for the benefit our our mutual users, this might be more attractive. -Rob Right now, lots needs doing but those who can do don't know they can do it, or for that matter where, and using what tools. Not all of those able and inclined read these lists. -louis
Re: oooforum.org
On 20 November 2011 15:48, Peter Roelofsen p_roelof...@tele2.nl wrote: The situation at oooforum.org is highly problematic. On the one hand it still has a large collection of very valuable posts, I believe largely in the Code snippets and Macros and API forums (the main reason why some people still bother to fight a losing battle against the spammers). On the other hand, spammers have free rein there, as moderators and active admins don't have sufficient powers to stop a spammer dead in their tracks. The only active admins at the moment are Andrew Pitonyak and JohnV - and they can't decently ban a spammer, they can only delete their account - so that they can make a new one with the same e-mail address. Moderators (I'm one) can only delete posts and threads, and lock, move and split threads, they can't stop a spammer. In my view the best thing to do would be to have a script download all topics that are worth saving,m and after that inform the modes and lower admins to stop moderating the forum, so that the site admin, one Ed, will after a while close the place. As with any value judgement… How difficult would it be simply to port the entirety of the content to a static site, close it to comments, point to it as needed, and start fresh with a 1) server for user-contributor-developer forums and b) policy enabling federation by domain (or so) inclusion of sympathetic sites? Louis floris v aka Peter Roelofsen
Re: (Draft) Email forwarding public announcement
… back…. Thanks, Rob; will cast eye over this shortly. Cheers, Louis PS then I'll bottom post ... On 30 November 2011 16:12, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: Note this is draft. But I'd like to see if I'm heading in the right direction. https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/%28Draft%29+Public+Statement+on+Email+Forwarding The idea would be to put this up on the blog, out to the mailing lists, prominently linked from home page of podling and OOo websites, and spread the word through social networks. But not yet. This is still draft. I've thrown in the shut off date as January 31st, 2012. This has not been discussed, so consider that to be just a placeholder for now. (Again, this is just draft). Some specific points that could use more detail include project services (lists, wikis, Bugzilla, etc.) that would be very commonly used with openoffice.org email addresses. I think I listed them all. But can you think of others? Also, if anyone knows what we should recommend for BZ and Wiki accounts, feel free to fill in those details, either on the list or directly on the wiki. The other parts to this, if you recall, are: 1) Working with Infra@ on a bounce notification. I have not started this beyond some vigorous arm waving. 2) A wiki page that the bounce notification would point to, showing the mapping of the various utility and mailing list addresses. I think we can recycle information already on the wiki page dealing with the list migration. 3) Ideally, translation of the above, once finalized, into major user languages. And obviously it will be easier to coordinate this if we can agree on a date for retiring the forwarding service. We're currently out-of-policy with this, though I think no one wants to just pull the plug without fair notice to users. -Rob
Re: Ohloh
Rob, On 28 November 2011 16:03, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: FYI. I've contacted an Ohloh admin to see if we can get the stats updated correctly again. Is there an update? I'd be curious to know the outcome. Thanks, Louis -Rob
Re: Help Docs Proprietary Documentation
What then is the result of this? Can we use these works? I'd like, again, to see if we can use them (through purchase, even) in the laudable service of promoting Apache OO use globally. thanks louis PS sorry if I repeat myself. On 3 December 2011 03:00, Frank Peters fpe.mli...@googlemail.com wrote: On Sat, Dec 3, 2011 at 3:59 AM, Frank Petersfpe.mli...@googlemail.com wrote: if you refer to the training material, it was managed by Oracle University and was completely outside the code source tree. Oracle Japan has got a Japanese page for it. http://education.oracle.com/pls/web_prod-plq-dad/db_pages.getpage?page_id=402p_nl=JOOS :) It says, OpenOffice.org is one of the coolest things to come along in a long time. It's powerful, flexible and it's free. Even though OpenOffice.org is free, you will need to invest some time learning it. OpenOffice.org is a fantastic program but, like any other program, it will take a while to learn to become efficient at using the various applications. and You can get OpenOffice.org Certification. :) It introduces OpenOffice.org Training Oracle University offers Learning Paths Desktop Software OpenOffice.org Writer OpenOffice.org Calc OpenOffice.org Impress And Certification. A Sun certification recognizes and rewards your skills, dedication, and motivation in the highly competitive technology industry. Oracle Certified Expert, OpenOffice.org Writer Oracle Certified Expert, OpenOffice.org Calc Oracle Certified Expert, OpenOffice.org Impress :) Great! isn't it? Yes, that is it. Evidently, Oracle did not clean up every corner accurately. Frank
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
Sorry for top posting... But yes, I was pretty much thinking along the lines Rob sketched out modulo TJ F. I can sound out these ideas. Political as well as resource issues come to mind, but I also see this as an opportunity to do some macro collaboration with, say, other projects engaged. In both localisation and ecosystem building. And as to the developer communities: always a challenge, but I do have many years doing just this sort of thing, only now there is no shroud of suspicion palling motive. (Nonsense words? iPad's spellchecker.) -- Louis Suárez-Potts On 2011-12-10, at 20:06, TJ Frazier tjfraz...@cfl.rr.com wrote: On 12/10/2011 19:44, Rob Weir wrote: On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 11 December 2011 00:13, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 7:11 PM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 11 December 2011 00:02, Rob Weirrobw...@apache.org wrote: On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 5:12 PM, Louis R Suárez-Pottslo...@apache.org wrote: ... Now to the present issue. I've written that I would rather focus here, in Apache land, on coding. But that only opens the door, as it were, to establishing the very successful Native Language modules either in another wing of Apache (??) or outside the Apache frame but corresponding to it, so that QA, a key element of the NL projects, for instance, could be tied in. Licenses, etc., would have to be harmonised. And I'd also suggest using a simpler work medium, such as wikis. I think some of this is already going on but it is not clear to me *what* is going on or where. I'm not alone. I have received several pings on this very question, and I'd like to move on it. I can see several models that could work: All good options... You hint at another option. I'm not sure it would work, but let's list it for sake of argument: 4. NL projects are individually proposed as their own podlings. Their charter would be for them to produce localizations of AOO. But they would be autonomous PMC's within Apache, with their own website, mailing lists, etc. Why do you feel this would this not work? You have many Gaelic or Vietnamese-speaking mentors? Fair point, although it is reasonable to expect that many of the people involved will be bi-lingual at least (otherwise how can they translate). Option 4 should not be ruled out (and you didn't do so), I was just wondering what the source of your reservations was. So a few other ways this doesn't quite fit a podling, as currently practiced: 1) Ability to find mentors, as mentioned above. 2) Ability of our infrastructure to handle non-ASCII collaboration. We've already seen, in our small attempt to have some Japanese NL work in this project, that Roller was not allowing Japanese text and that the SpamAssassin flags every attempted post to the Japanese language list as spam. I'd expect some work would be needed in several areas. But once done, this work would benefit others who attempt something similar. So not a bad thing to try. But I'd anticipate initial challenges of this kind. 3) Technical skills needed to produce a release. To get through the ceremony of cutting a release at Apache requires someone understand things ranging from SVN tagging to GPG signing. Translators are not coders. Their expertise is on the linguistic side. They are not command-line people. You might be lucky and have someone who can also be comfortable with these things, but it would not be guaranteed. 4) The efforts can be very small in some cases. How do you get three +1's for a release if there are only 2 people in your project? 5) Growing the community of developers is hard. Once you've translated 100% of the GUI strings, then what? Translate them again, better? And then better again? Put differently, the work of translation is finite and does not give much room for growth. However, on the other, non-release side of NL projects, the outreach to users, the website, etc., there is much room for growth. 5) This creates a quasi-umbrella project. Since translations are not usable separate from the core AOO code, these other new projects would be necessarily tied to the features and the schedule of AOO, assuming they are not forking the code itself. I've heard general unease with umbrella projects at Apache. But if we are willing to dream, you could imagine a kind of umbrella project, not of code modules, but of user-facing interactions, where autonomous groups within Apache maintained localized user-facing pages, wikis, user lists, support forums, etc. TLP might be too heavy weight for this, since we have potentially many dozens of these, and their releases would consist of translated strings that are only useful when installed with AOO. The non-release activities of the project would clearly be their focus. So this is something I
Re: Off topic
Ian, yes, your post was refreshingly OT :-) But not really, too, as I think it more generally points to the need to provide a forum for ecosystem activity. Q: Would Apache be the site for that? Or do we look elsewhere? I'd also like to think that we could make such a forum of ecosystem activity embracing of all ODF implementation ecosystems. Louis On 12 December 2011 10:09, Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvqxjZr79eE Coursework submitted for the Gold INGOT certificate by a 15 year old competent in the use of Blender. Ok, its off topic but I thought it might be an interesting change :-) -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications (The Schools ITQ) www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales.
Re: Off topic
HI, On 12 December 2011 18:24, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: forum for ecosystem activity. Q: Would Apache be the site for that? That all depends on what you mean by ecosystem activity. Apache exists to produce open source software for the public good. How nice. :-) I mean civil as well as governmental commercial (and not) activity utilising and normalising within the warp and woof of the everyday the work produced by the commons-based peer network. In short, the stuff that earns the keep of those who keep the urn: but without burn or churn. (sorry, dinnertime) At OOo we had a simple policy that sought to promote disinterested ecosystem activity. I'd be a lot more inclined to relax the strictures, as the situation here is quite different. But there were some provisions that made sense, and which I long advocated for. These included promoting sponsors of work via regulated icons (not garish or distracting from the thing of value produced itself), as well as unedited listings of service/support providers. I had started a list but the DE group under André did a much better job, though it was rather unwieldy, as they were the first to admit. Better technology now would make for better listing. The extant list: http://bizdev.openoffice.org/ (The history of posting sponsors' ads is tedious but the risk is always one of bleeding volunteers of that which moves them in the pursuit of the lucre that moves others. But we can manage that. And Ian and I have had historical discussions on this point, though we now pretty much agree on the what's what of it.) louis Ross
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
Claudio, One reason I have tried to stay more or less muted (besides being fiendishly busy) is because this Apache effort is a true community effort. Apache is doing brilliantly ensuring that processes are kept open and within the bounds of its charter and that we all are informed of the why, where, what of things. That is good. But it also means that if we want something we have to do it, and do it within the boundaries we consensually agree with. These are not the OOo ones, though there is obviously correspondence. But it does mean that we who remain interested in a future for the gosh darn best ODF implementation and hope for a one-day-less-bloated version that could fit smug in a tablet have work to do and that means being our own leaders. Put another way: we need to find the resources to get what we want. :-) Cheers, Louis On 12 December 2011 09:05, Claudio F Filho filh...@gmail.com wrote: Hi On 10-12-2011 20:12, Louis R Suárez-Potts wrote: Regular readers of this list might recall discussions by Khirano, Rob and others about the fate of the Native Language projects in OOo. I'm not sure what the outcome was, and a quick browse of archives didn't really enlighten me, as it seems things were left hanging. +1. I'd like to see if we can resolve this issue. A recap: OOo had many native-language projects in which non-coding discussions were in the native tongue, e.g., Russian, Viet, Brazilian Portuguese, Gaelic(s), and so on. At any given moment there were about a hundred, and one can see these listed still at http://projects.openoffice.org /native-lang.html. It is true. The focus *only*(?) over code, IMHO, is a error. We have many good people that haven't idea about programming, but have good ideas about promotion, artwork, and other fronts. Now to the present issue. I've written that I would rather focus here, in Apache land, on coding. But that only opens the door, as it were, to establishing the very successful Native Language modules either in another wing of Apache (??) or outside the Apache frame but corresponding to it, so that QA, a key element of the NL projects, for instance, could be tied in. Licenses, etc., would have to be harmonised. And I'd also suggest using a simpler work medium, such as wikis. I agree with you, Louis. QA, doc and other elements where is not necessary coding skill, giving more freedom for non-tecnical people help the project. PS The majority of the NL projects reformed to constitute LibreOffice. Because of disparities of license, I suppose harmonisation of effort will be more difficult, but by no means ought it to be abandoned, if actual contributors deem it worthwhile. I dislike duplication of effort both as a project manager and as someone who then has to persuade the bewildered user that A and B are just alike but one is more equal than the other. I think that more that the license issue, we have a lot of people unhappy with the way that LibO is following, the same people that was part of NL and chose in go to LibO believing in a thing and finding other, so, i think that really have people interested in help here, but with this posture of Apache are lost, without idea where help. Maybe is time to consider better this position and find a place for this work's force. Bests, Claudio
Re: About the Former Native Language projects
Michael I have pretty much ceased following the lists, as they seemed to stop following me. But I was wrong. I'll send a note to nlc, l10n and others Wednesday, informing them of the good news of their possible resurrection, even as Apaches :-) Cheers, Louis On 12 December 2011 18:36, Michael Bauer f...@akerbeltz.org wrote: Hi folks, I admit to mostly lurking but kinda feel compelled to chip in at this point. First off, I'm just a translator, I came to OO late in the day to resucitate the Scottish Gaelic localization which had fallen format. I have no coding skills, at least none at the level needed to contribute code, so I consider my skills in translation my contribution. As such, I usually have little interest in the direction projects such as OO, Mozilla w/e take, code-wise or politically, except for trying to promote translator-friendly localization processes. The impending rift and eventual split took me completely by surprise. Literally. One day I had been translating away in Pootle, the next day it was dead and it took a lot of googling to eventually figure out what had been going on. I'm just glad I had taken a backup the day before, I don't know how many nascent projects have had their entire work frozen on Pootle since. Which is why I felt a little irked by the suggestion someone made that interested NL projects could come forward. If it hadn't been for someone's blog post I came across eventually, I *still* wouldn't know that OO had shifted to Apache. I suspect very few NL projects will have come forward because for a long time it was not obvious to people not hooked into the develpment mailing lists (conjecture, mylord) that that's what happened. Apart from spam, nothing has ever been posted on the l10n list which was the only list I had subscribed to for the above reasons. So if we're supposed to step forward, perhaps someone should let the l10n list subscribers know? My main concern are the Gaelic users, however few those may be, who are still stuck on 3.01 and who know nothing of this break, apart from the fact that the extensions site has been going offline regulary. So I'd like to find some way of completing the localization - which should be relatively easy as I completed it over on LO, so they can finally update to whatever version is next. Salude e trigu, Michael And incidentally, translation *is* a technical skill - it just doesn't involve code dancing across the screen ;)
Let's move on
All, The new Apache OpenOffice is ready for you. We cannot and probably do not want to replicate what we have had here, but we can, I believe, take the best of it and move on. There is tremendous value in what we—no, you—have accomplished, and I have no interest, and I doubt you do, too, in losing it. Actually, I see 2012 as a banner year of opportunity. What needs to be done, then, i you want to contribute, and I do encourage that. * Sign up with the Apache site * Get started with discussing the future of:
Re: Let's move on
oh, dear. I accidentally pressed the wrong button… sigh…. Anyway, I was going on to say that we do need for people interested in contributing to sign up. But that is just a stat. More importantly, we need to determine processes to follow, and the includes identifying where to do the work. It may be within the Apache frame and site, but it may not; let's see. Regardless of these very important details, we do need to get going so that when the new year comes—in a lot less than I'd hope—we can be fresh. More to come, but even more if you join us in discussing the options and desires. And sorry for clumsiness— cheers, Louis On 13 December 2011 01:21, Louis Suárez-Potts lui...@gmail.com wrote: All, The new Apache OpenOffice is ready for you. We cannot and probably do not want to replicate what we have had here, but we can, I believe, take the best of it and move on. There is tremendous value in what we—no, you—have accomplished, and I have no interest, and I doubt you do, too, in losing it. Actually, I see 2012 as a banner year of opportunity. What needs to be done, then, i you want to contribute, and I do encourage that. * Sign up with the Apache site * Get started with discussing the future of:
Re: Off topic
Hi Ross, et al., On 2011-12-13, at 09:31 , Ross Gardler wrote: On 13 December 2011 14:05, Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com wrote: On 13 December 2011 11:12, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: I'm not sure where this meme of can't be done here in Apache is coming from. Maybe can be done in the future but not right now? Louis original mail was hinged around I think it more generally points to the need to provide a forum for ecosystem activity. and his subsequent mail was focussed on activities such as These included promoting sponsors of work via regulated icons (not garish or distracting from the thing of value produced itself), as well as unedited listings of service/support providers. There is nothing in Apache policy that says the project cannot have such a page. In needs to be managed sensitively and fairly, but the PPMC is free to decide on how that is done. Ross Right; and so let's get going… louis
Re: Off topic
On 2011-12-13, at 10:43 , Rob Weir wrote: This may be a bit hard to imagine, since OOo never really developed this kind of ecosystem. This was due to license and control issues. But we have the opportunity now to encourage a healthier ecosystem. You are in error. Actually, OOo did develop numerous such ecosystems where one could donate funds or contribute work. These were autonomously managed, for the most part, by the NLC projects. But we also used a central dyad, SPI and TeamOOo, and the contributions were from users. We also had many related businesses around the world depending upon and making money from OOo code. Key examples are in Malaysia and region; India, but also Brazil, Spain and so on. A lot moved to LibreOffice. But the point is ODF and the code that implements it. That said, I would very much like to re-establish the ecosystem that we created over 10 years of work—that's why I am a little annoyed that you so cavalierly dismissed what we have done, but I'm sure I misinterpreted and misread and didn't read right what you wrote and my apologies, Rob, for being impatient and no doubt unjustifiably indignant—but anyway, I'd very much like to recapture the work. For reference, the usual links: http://support.openoffice.org/ lists many and points to others http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Major_OpenOffice.org_Deployments These two point to support options, most of which are out of date, and to those who have notified us (or we've been told about) who are significant users of OOo. This list does not really include LibreOffice or Symphony or other OOo-related implementations, such as EuroOffice (I think that's its name) and so on. And there are many such. louis
Re: Off topic
Further points. OOo differed from Mozilla, for instance, but resembled Eclipse in that we accepted funds for development work. At a conference hosted by financial firms where I represented OOo and there were representatives of Eclipse and Moz., Mike M. and I made similar points: That OOo can be used as a vehicle for alerting developers and other contributors of paid opportunities to contribute code. I'd be in favour of re-doing that, but stress that code contributed must comply with the prevailing license, though I'd also have no problem with dual licensing. This and others are actually viable business models, and we showed as much with OOo's long tenure. The issue that we had to deal with was that the owning companies pretty much clipped our wings and prevented us from becoming what we could. But that was then. Louis On 2011-12-13, at 11:12 , Louis Suárez-Potts wrote: On 2011-12-13, at 10:43 , Rob Weir wrote: This may be a bit hard to imagine, since OOo never really developed this kind of ecosystem. This was due to license and control issues. But we have the opportunity now to encourage a healthier ecosystem. You are in error. Actually, OOo did develop numerous such ecosystems where one could donate funds or contribute work. These were autonomously managed, for the most part, by the NLC projects. But we also used a central dyad, SPI and TeamOOo, and the contributions were from users. We also had many related businesses around the world depending upon and making money from OOo code. Key examples are in Malaysia and region; India, but also Brazil, Spain and so on. A lot moved to LibreOffice. But the point is ODF and the code that implements it. That said, I would very much like to re-establish the ecosystem that we created over 10 years of work—that's why I am a little annoyed that you so cavalierly dismissed what we have done, but I'm sure I misinterpreted and misread and didn't read right what you wrote and my apologies, Rob, for being impatient and no doubt unjustifiably indignant—but anyway, I'd very much like to recapture the work. For reference, the usual links: http://support.openoffice.org/ lists many and points to others http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Major_OpenOffice.org_Deployments These two point to support options, most of which are out of date, and to those who have notified us (or we've been told about) who are significant users of OOo. This list does not really include LibreOffice or Symphony or other OOo-related implementations, such as EuroOffice (I think that's its name) and so on. And there are many such. louis
Re: Off topic
Hi, On 13 December 2011 11:18, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 11:12 AM, Louis Suárez-Potts lui...@gmail.com wrote: On 2011-12-13, at 10:43 , Rob Weir wrote: This may be a bit hard to imagine, since OOo never really developed this kind of ecosystem. This was due to license and control issues. But we have the opportunity now to encourage a healthier ecosystem. You are in error. Actually, OOo did develop numerous such ecosystems where one could donate funds or contribute work. These were autonomously managed, for the most part, by the NLC projects. But we also used a central dyad, SPI and TeamOOo, and the contributions were from users. Not truly autonomous if they were relying on using the OpenOffice.org trademark and suggesting that they officially represented the project. So we never really had that degree of independence. -Rob Let's clarify. Autonomy does not mean independence, and I've long scrupled at that distinction. I'm not surprised it slipped by you. Autonomy in the actual useful sense is the ability to act on your own, but still be to any number of degrees dependent upon the context. Independence argues freedom from that operational context. To give an example. The US declared independence. Canada, autonomy. Canada has the Queen. The US? :-) The NL projects were and I guess sort of are autonomous, as much as I could make them, while being part of the originating context and thus commons, so that they ultimately gained their value as much from their actions as from the commons to which they contributed the fruit of their work and which tried to return the favour. They did use the trademark, and we did have conditions on it. But they named themselves as they wanted (this I was critiqued for allowing) and did other things that they could, as I felt they had the best insight into their operational context. Examples of success: BrOffice, which is also, probably an example of failure, at least according to some models. Louis
Re: old colored vs new monochrome icons
Hi, On 13 December 2011 12:12, Gianluca Turconi pub...@letturefantastiche.com wrote: Il giorno Tue, 13 Dec 2011 08:28:45 -0800 (PST) Pedro Giffuni p...@apache.org ha scritto: I would think that we should keep the new icons but effectively color code them: it doesn't seem difficult to do in a first glance but ultimately this is a delicate issue that is likely to cause strong reactions in the end user. In other words: I am not volunteering to do it ;-). I can only say that a colored icon set for OO is the second most wanted feature in the usenet Italian community. User Tommy27 in this bug https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=112141 is in fact, a vocal Italian supporter of this change. ;-) Regards, Gianluca P.S. to whom is interested, the most wanted future by the usenet Italian community (IMO) is font inclusion in OO Writer documents. It caused flame wars, endless legal discussions starting from Agfa vs. Adobe trial and a huge addition to my kill file. :-P -- Lettura gratuita o acquisto di libri e racconti di fantascienza, fantasy, horror, noir, narrativa fantastica e tradizionale: http://www.letturefantastiche.com/ I'd like then to revisit this issue. I am for nice icons that make people happy as well as informing them. I think we now have a tabula rasa to play with, and ought not to be constrained by the prior circumstances, only with not deviating too much from market momentum. louis
Re: old colored vs new monochrome icons
Hi, On 13 December 2011 17:49, Marcus (OOo) marcus.m...@wtnet.de wrote: Am 12/13/2011 06:12 PM, schrieb Gianluca Turconi: Il giorno Tue, 13 Dec 2011 08:28:45 -0800 (PST) Pedro Giffunip...@apache.org ha scritto: I would think that we should keep the new icons but effectively color code them: it doesn't seem difficult to do in a first glance but ultimately this is a delicate issue that is likely to cause strong reactions in the end user. In other words: I am not volunteering to do it ;-). I've followed the discussions, too. And got the impression that the very most people like the icons for their design but shouting for colors. So, a +1 to keep the currenty design but to send them simply to a paint shop. ;-) I can only say that a colored icon set for OO is the second most wanted feature in the usenet Italian community. User Tommy27 in this bug https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=112141 is in fact, a vocal Italian supporter of this change. ;-) So, you think that a big hint like 3.4 will be with the old b/w icons but we will do everything to give you back the long-wished colored icons with the next but one release [3.5 or 4.0] is not good enough and the people cannot wait for the next but one release? If so then we have (probably) the first new improvement that has nothing to do with IP clearance. P.S. to whom is interested, the most wanted future by the usenet Italian community (IMO) is font inclusion in OO Writer documents. It caused flame wars, endless legal discussions starting from Agfa vs. Adobe trial and a huge addition to my kill file. :-P Do you really mean ODF file or maybe PDF files? I remember discussions to include the fonts also into PDF files that also let to legal discussions. Marcus Shall we then initiate this as a subproject or whatever it is to be called, and set up a timeline and other elements of a project, so that we can get the icons wanted? Again, I should think there are no limits beyond the sense of the commons (not quite the same, I'd goes as common sense.) cheers louis
Re: old colored vs new monochrome icons
On 13 December 2011 19:52, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 7:38 PM, Andrea Pescetti pesce...@openoffice.org wrote: On 13/12/2011 Marcus (OOo) wrote: Am 12/13/2011 06:12 PM, schrieb Gianluca Turconi: snip I can only say that a colored icon set for OO is the second most wanted feature in the usenet Italian community. ... So, you think that a big hint like 3.4 will be with the old b/w icons but we will do everything to give you back the long-wished colored icons with the next but one release [3.5 or 4.0] is not good enough and the people cannot wait for the next but one release? Gianluca is right. For some reason the blue icons were perceived by some (who were possibly right!) as a sign of Oracle's stubbornness in dictating the direction of OpenOffice.org; going back to the colored icons would be, to them, a sign that Apache OpenOffice cares about complaints from the community (and probably the others would see it as a usability improvement anyway). And, considering the flamewars we have seen on the issue on other lists, being able to restore the colored icons back without too much discussion or formality would be an even better sign. Favor so cheaply won is also as easily lost. I have no idea about the history of this. I don't really care about the political side of this. But can someone explain why the icons were changed in the first place? Surely, someone had an argument for this at the time? You mention flamewars. That suggests there were two points of view. It is hard to have a flamewar where eveyone agrees. ;-) -Rob Briefly, the issue pitted non-Sun/Oracle voices against what seemed to be a Sun/Oracle front in favour of changing the icons to be a) more noticeable and memorable (you recall, Rob, the proposal I put forth to the ODF Adoption TC a couple of times?) and b) perhaps coincidentally to conform more with other things. The problem was that the non-sponsored community had been working on its own set, and Sun/Oracle came late to the party and then put the lampshade on its head, as it were, and, because it held the keys to the party…. well, you can fill in the blanks. Sun/Oracle actually tried to do good, and the people managing this went through a lot of hell—no one likes being attacked, even as proxy, and no one likes defending positions of provoking such flames. And the issue is in fact quite silly—now. We have the chance to improve both the icons and the spirit of discussion, as there is *no* corporate mandate now. So we can have the usual sort of squabbles and aesthetic disputes—the things that make community life fun, I suppose—without the grief of believing that Big Power has just sat on you. But, to repeat: the people who were involved, on all sides, really did mean the best, and really did, at some point, find themselves ballistically shot into deep hot waters—and no one liked that and no one wants to repeat it, and we do not have to. louis
Re: Problems with OpenOffice.org mailing lists
Hi all, On 13 December 2011 18:11, Andrea Pescetti pesce...@openoffice.org wrote: On 13/12/2011 Marcus (OOo) wrote: In the last ~24h I got more than a dozend spam messages in my inbox for moderation. So, something *is* actually working again. Same for me, it seems delivery is mostly OK now and some (but not all, or not all yet) messages from December have been delivered. Regards, Andrea. The lists are probably not being too actively managed by the gnomes, leaving gremlins free rein. But we really all ought to move away from @openoffice.org as soon as possible, and make the effort to notify our colleagues still using the OOo lists to join us here in Apache-land, and start fresh with contributions. Ciao Louis
Re: URL redirection lost
Hi all, On 7 December 2011 10:53, FR web forum ooofo...@free.fr wrote: Since 4th nov. always page not found, is it possible to do something? We have a lot of links. Unable to rewrite it all. - Mail original - De: Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net À: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Envoyé: Samedi 12 Novembre 2011 20:37:20 Objet: Re: URL redirection lost Hi, On Nov 12, 2011, at 9:49 AM, FR web forum wrote: Hello, On the french forum, we have many hyperlinks to ex-QA website like: h**p://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=X This is jump to a not found page. Is it possible to have an automatic redirection to h**ps://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=X Somebody can do this redirection? Our users think that the issues system has been removed. It's annoying for volunteers to make good support. Thanks to fix it Thanks for the reminder. I've made the request from Apache Infrastructure. Sorry for the delays. Regards, Dave Has this been resolved? I only ask because I have lately been receiving more than usual complaints about this or that link—usually to the extensions or templates—not working. I suspect the bitrot eating at the old site is accelerating? thanks Louis
Re: URL redirection lost
sorry didn't mean to harass… quite understand. thanks louis On 14 December 2011 00:13, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net wrote: Hi Luis, It is in the redirection list for moving the web site. See the long thread where Rob harassed me on Sunday. We can't know any complaints if they are not brought here. Regards, Dave Sent from my iPhone On Dec 13, 2011, at 10:21 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts lsuarezpo...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, On 7 December 2011 10:53, FR web forum ooofo...@free.fr wrote: Since 4th nov. always page not found, is it possible to do something? We have a lot of links. Unable to rewrite it all. - Mail original - De: Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net À: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Envoyé: Samedi 12 Novembre 2011 20:37:20 Objet: Re: URL redirection lost Hi, On Nov 12, 2011, at 9:49 AM, FR web forum wrote: Hello, On the french forum, we have many hyperlinks to ex-QA website like: h**p://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=X This is jump to a not found page. Is it possible to have an automatic redirection to h**ps://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=X Somebody can do this redirection? Our users think that the issues system has been removed. It's annoying for volunteers to make good support. Thanks to fix it Thanks for the reminder. I've made the request from Apache Infrastructure. Sorry for the delays. Regards, Dave Has this been resolved? I only ask because I have lately been receiving more than usual complaints about this or that link—usually to the extensions or templates—not working. I suspect the bitrot eating at the old site is accelerating? thanks Louis
Re: old colored vs new monochrome icons
Hi, Gianluca, It's a pleasure to see you here again…. (Note: Gianluca was one of OOo's first and originating marketing leads, among other things. His tenure with and faith in OOo and the process is great) On 14 December 2011 09:17, Gianluca Turconi pub...@letturefantastiche.com wrote: Il giorno Wed, 14 Dec 2011 09:10:10 -0500 Rob Weir robw...@apache.org ha scritto: Yes, but the average user doesn't complain about the icon set on mailing lists. There were *many* complaints on blogs, fori, usenet groups *and* mailing lists. As long as I can remember, there were more complaints only against the Renaissance project and the Ribbon-like GUI. Regards, Gianluca -- Lettura gratuita o acquisto di libri e racconti di fantascienza, fantasy, horror, noir, narrativa fantastica e tradizionale: http://www.letturefantastiche.com/ Again, I think we have tabula rasa. But I also think that, as Rob reiterates, let's be expeditious and pragmatic, meaning that we may go for absolutely new things that do real justice to a renaissance (bright colour coupled with math married to technology enabling individual property) but I would suggest that for now we simply improve the colour. And then plan for a 4.0 or 3.5 better world. louis
Re: Too many lists
Hi, First, as I've stated below, I quite agree with Ross. Too many lists is not good, it's actually recipe for loneliness. It works against—very much against—precisely supra projects like Apache are meant to foster: cross-communication, discovery, serendipity. Recall: Our policy at OOo was exactly the one that Raphael articulates. Less is better than more. I used to have to approve every new list proposed, and Stefan and I did this because we both felt—he more than I, at first, until I realized how right he was—that having fewer is better than more. Comments inline… On 2011-12-14, at 23:33 , Raphael Bircher wrote: Am 15.12.11 00:26, schrieb Ross Gardler: I'm really concerned about the tendency of the AOO project to keep proposing and seriously considering new lists (well that is probably over stating it, but I am genuinely concerned). Each time you create a list you separate the community from itself. It should not happen until there is a proven need for it. Splitting the community in this way leads to questions like which list should this be on and subsequently which list should I search to find the answer to this. snip Sure the ASF has a load of experionce an building developer Communities. But I think the OOo project has much more experience in local community building, Translation and Localization, and Documentation. Please give us our space we need to grow up here. Raphael: As I mentioned, in fact, OOo's policy was exactly Apache's. If a new list is really demanded, and I can think of a couple of instances where it might be, then it ought to be created. But that comes *after the fact*. We went through this on OOo. The complaint was that moving archives was a pain. But one does not have to move archives; and it's much less of a pain now than it used to be. (OOo and ASF use the same email application, btw.) I would thus urge that we be as parsimonious as possible, when it comes to lists, and that, indeed, we do follow OOo's 11 year experience and realize that it's much better to have a few intense lists with some noise but a lot of great signal than to have many lists with little noise and even less signal worth the list. best Louis
Re: So - anyone want to talk about Apache OpenOffice...
Hi Drew, et al., On 2011-12-21, at 20:34 , drew wrote: Howdy, Lot's of stuff breezing around, huh? OK - so it appears 'we' have made a public announcement of a 1st quarter release...cool. Guess it's time to actually decide on some of the issues Graham has been so articulate in presenting. Do we want to talk branding on this list or back on the Marketing list.. Let's use this list. Reason: there are many here who could contribute their insights, and until such point as the noise deafens us, I see no compelling reason to use a new list, or even a newly repurposed old list--which will have ghosts of yesteryear rattling reminder chains hobbling our novelty. louis //drew
Re: Merry Christmas and some private thoughts
Hi all and that includes Jürgen :-) Yes, this be a blog. :-) Perhaps others, too, can chime in? Briefly: I am delighted with the new founding of Apache OpenOffice and with the interest it has garnered. What better way to end the developer year? :-) I'd like to thank the Apache Mentors. People: you've been good. And for those of you in the warmer hemisphere: My envy. But enjoy the holiday on the beach, anyway. Cheers, Louis -shivering in snowless Toronto. On 2011-12-23, at 07:35 , Jürgen Schmidt wrote: Hi all, before i will leave for a short Christmas break i would like to share some thoughts with you about the last months, my private expectations, and my wishes for the next year. Oracle's announcement to stop their investment in OpenOffice.org was a shock for me. Well the reason is obvious, I was paid by Oracle and worked on this project. The people who know me from the past know that i am a 100% OpenOffice.org guy and I always appreciated to work on this project and with our community. I always felt part of the overall community. I know the reasons that were responsible for the LibreOffice fork and the split of the community and i have to confess that i can understand it. But i didn't liked how it was made. If Oracle would have done this step 6 month earlier I am sure we wouldn't have this fork and this split of the community. We would potentially still have the go-oo fork which was the foundation for LibreOffice but that is something different. Anyway it is as it is at moment and we will see how it moves forward in the future. The grant to Apache was at least the appropriate signal that OpenOffice.org as a project will never die. The brand is to big and to important, the opportunities around the product and the overall eco system are great and I was very sure that the project will continue. But a lot of work was and still is in front of us. We had to deal with a lot of things in parallel where other derivative projects didn't had to deal with at least not in the public. We had to migrate the whole OpenOffice.org infra structure to Apache and had to ensure that it work. I think we were very successful here and have migrated nearly everything we need from a technical perspective. Our mission was to migrate as much as possible of the available stuff of www.openoffice.org and at least save it for later use. I think we did it! Thanks to all who made this possible. And we can concentrate in the future on some structural and conceptual redesign of the main portal page www.openoffice.org to provide the information to our users that they need to find the product, to find more information like help, discussion forums, to find the way in the community if they want to do more etc. We couldn't simply use the code as it was and could continue with the development as in the past because of the different license. A huge challenge that is still ongoing and where i had many problems with at the beginning. It is not easy to explain why you remove something and replace it with something new that provide the same functionality but is under a more appropriate license. It's simply boring work and no developer really like it. But is a prerequisite for Apache and in the end it is better for our eco system because the Apache license is much friendlier for business usage as any other open source license. As an individual developer I don't care too much about all the different open source licenses, as along as the work i do is good for the project and in the end for our users. But i learned that the Apache license can be a door opener for more contributors and more engagement of companies. And i think that is important and can only help our project. And not everything is bad. With the IP cleanup we really cleaned up many things and Armin's replacement for svg import/export is the best solution we ever had for OpenOffice and with the biggest potential for further improvements. All this is really motivating for the future! Well we had a lot of noise and communication problems on our mailing lists and i think we missed to transport the message that OpenOffice.org has found a new home under the Apache foundation and we have missed to communicate the progress we have made in the pubic. We can do much better in the future! And i am looking forward to work with all of you on this communication part in the future. We don't have to be shy, we work on a great project with a great product and we should have enough to communicate and to share in the public (not only on our mailing list but on all the modern and very useful medias like facebook, Google+, twitter, ...) For the next year I expect that we find a way to guide and control our project a little bit better. I expect our first release early next year and hopefully a second one later the year where we can show that we are able to drive the
Re: [WWW] Changeover is Close - Final Tasks!
Hi, On 2011-12-23, at 12:12 , Kay Schenk wrote: On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 4:08 PM, Andrea Pescetti pesce...@openoffice.orgwrote: Kay Schenk wrote: [...] I left the N-L contacts alone for now, since I don't know what the status of that is. It is equally outdated, but it would probably be better to write Contact instead of Project Lead in the table header at http://ooo-site.staging.* *apache.org/projects/native-**lang.htmlhttp://ooo-site.staging.apache.org/projects/native-lang.html While still being wrong in quite a few cases, this at least doesn't suggest that there is an organized hierarchy in the Apache OpenOffice subprojects/teams. I'm not changing this myself to avoid commit conflicts during migration. Regards, Andrea. Excellent suggestion, Andrea! Contacts it is for N-L page! Totally agree. The reason I chose to use Project Lead lies rooted in my squishy anarchism. CollabNet had a term they chose, project owner (remember, our old infrastructure, later named CollabNet, was based on, uhm, Apache's, courtesy Brian B and others who sort of founded the thing that became Apache SF). Owner sounded, I don't know, proprietary. Lead sounded, at least to me, more neutral: one was leading not owning. And in open source, as Brian and I have many times said, you lead by doing. Brian calls it a do-ocracy, which sort of finesses the problematic of meritocracy vs. democracy (the two need sequence to survive each other). But power is as power does and a rose is a rose is a rose and will smell as sweet and prick as sharp no matter what wee call it. The power structure of Ye Olde OOo determined things. Sadly, not names. But a new year is upon us and a new field before us. Apache has proven itself to be great, and there is every reason to take from the past what we need but not what we don't want. So, Happy Chanukah, Winter Solstice, every other seasonal holiday, and even better, Happy New Year (I can get bubbly for that.) ciao louis -- MzK The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. -- Mohandas Gandhi
Re: IP Clearance Milestone
Juergen, et al., We used to have on Ye Olde a pr@ list charged with drafting and then sending out, first in En, then in other tongues announcements related to OOo releases, etc. Apache of course maintains its own PR machinery. So, obvious question: What is the logistic to coordinate or to work with the Apache release PR, should we want to do that? Louis On 2011-12-23, at 07:35 , Jürgen Schmidt wrote: On 12/23/11 10:52 AM, Andre Fischer wrote: Hi all, I am pleased to announce a major milestone on our way toward a first release of Apache OpenOffice. (This is, of course, no official announcement -- I just happen to have fixed the last IP clearance issue.) This is not yet a release, not even a release candidate. It is a developer build. Use it for testing and for finding out what still has to be done but do not edit important documents with it. 1. All source code (used in the widest sense) under category X license [1] (eg copyleft like GPL) has been removed from the SVN trunk. This does not necessarily mean loss of features. Where possible, libraries have been replaced with ones that have licenses acceptable to Apache, and that offer the same and sometimes even better functionality. See [3] for details. 2. All source code under category B license [2] (eg weak-copyleft like MPL and EPL) is disabled by default. It is now required by the developer (or release engineer) to make a conscious and explicit decision to include category B code into the build. That means, that what you checkout from the Apache SVN server and build with the default switches is by default all category A license (permissive, like Apache, BSD and MIT) code. We all can be proud of what we have achieved so far (and by we I mean everybody on this list who has helped and contributed to this effort, not just the people who touched the code.) Now that we have reached this important milestone we should think of the remaining steps for AOO 3.4, things like: A. Remaining steps for IP clearance work: - finish the conversion of license headers - adapt references to trademark and product name, including for example the splash screen - replacements for lp_solve (linear programming in calc), neon (HTTP/WebDAV) - reintegration of dictionaries B. Testing/QA This is an important milestone because it now enables others to contribute to the project in areas like testing, translation, documentation, etc. C. This is also a good time to start thinking about appointing a release manager for the 3.4 release. You can read more on this at [4]. Are there any volunteers? i would volunteer to drive our first release forward, means i would i like to collect the items we have to do to be cconform with the Apache release management process (André's number [4]), would like to track these items and would like to work with all of you on (this) our primary goal for the next. Juergen It is my personal opinion (hopefully shared by others) that when we all keep up the good work we can have a release candidate that is ready for voting on as a Apache OpenOffice 3.4 podling release in Q1. Best regards, Andre [1] http://www.apache.org/legal/3party.html#category-x [2] http://www.apache.org/legal/3party.html#category-b [3] https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/IP_Clearance+Impact [4] http://incubator.apache.org/guides/releasemanagement.html
Re: IP Clearance Milestone
On 2011-12-23, at 19:41 , Shane Curcuru wrote: But I have and idea. Why not make a blog post, and then use the new announce list (and various social media channels) to tell this story? That is what we did at an early stage in the PR evolution, before we worked with professional (costly/pro-bono) PR agencies. We maintained--and I still have it in my Blogger account--newsletter.blogspot; prior to that, I maintained newsletter@openoffice and so on. I'd be interested if others would want to rekindle the PR steam engine and start anew. I am much, much less involved in this project's doings, now, fwiw. In short, a *communal* blogpost, as we maintained for a while (Khirano can recall, I am sure) seems apt. I can also ask my far too many press friends and contacts to listen up. But what do we want? Users, developers, contributors? Someone(s) to see that we are not the thawed out undead but freshborn of the living? And so do we simply want the world to see us as a community they can count in and on? Louis
Re: IP Clearance Milestone
On 2011-12-24, at 03:53 , Gianluca Turconi wrote: In data 24 dicembre 2011 alle ore 01:41:34, Shane Curcuru a...@shanecurcuru.org ha scritto: One might look in the obvious place: http://www.apache.org/press/ I read there: Any press release or news announcement that refers to The ASF and/or its projects must be reviewed and approved by the VP, Marketing and Publicity in advance of its distribution. How can that work flow be conciliated with press releases or other infos released in languages other than English? That sort of was my thought, too. So, let's see. Obviously--?--we all respect the logical concerns of Apache, and equally so, we are but podling. Stil…. -louis Regards, -- Gianluca Turconi Lettura gratuita o acquisto di libri e racconti di fantascienza, fantasy, horror, noir, narrativa fantastica e tradizionale: http://www.letturefantastiche.com/
Re: IP Clearance Milestone
Hi all, Sorry, read messages in reverse order…. On 2011-12-24, at 06:45 , Ross Gardler wrote: Thanks Sally, So the message to the AOO community is to get the English language versions approved with enough time for translation. Or vice versa, to English. Not all original things start off in English. For single language, non-English releases we need to give as much time as possible, but they still need to go through the usual review process. Who reviews? Say you don't have reviewers for some of the languages….. At the moment, for this release, that's likely not a problem. But, by the end of OOo, we had many languages and many local reps pushing non-anglophone versions (translations, that is). There was no efficient way to synchronize all the languages. We went with major languages, which were usually done first, and then as the less-staffed ones came up with translations, those went out. We had to trust the local lead that her translation was a translation and not page from Monty Python. But, isn't this all about trust, anyway? Louis Ross Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity. On Dec 24, 2011 11:10 AM, Sally Khudairi sallykhuda...@yahoo.com wrote: Ah, thanks, Ross. Yes, I can see the situation where we'd like to issue localized press releases to coincide with the availability of a certain product, feature, or user community. We recently did this for this past week's open letter: in addition to our usual distribution in English, it was also issued over the newswires in German. Hope this helps. -Sally [from the mobile; pls pardon spacing/spelling errors] -Original Message- From: Ross Gardler Sent: 24/12/2011, 5:23 AM To: sallykhuda...@yahoo.com Cc: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; ASF Marketing Publicity Subject: RE: IP Clearance Milestone Sorry Sally It's just a heads up about the potential issue of multi-lingual press releases from AOO. The first instance will be the milestone release in Q1 2012, so no rush. Looking further into the future there may be situations when a national group will want to do their own release. Ross Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity. On Dec 24, 2011 10:14 AM, Sally Khudairi sallykhuda...@yahoo.com wrote:
Re: IP Clearance Milestone
On 2011-12-24, at 04:39 , Ross Gardler wrote: Lotus, please do conduct the kind of outreach you are talking about. However, please now we have an official Apache blog. Let's not use another. I am not sure I'd be the one using the official blog anyway. As I mentioned, I'm much less involved now. Others have been amply demonstrating their zeal, far more than I, who must be tutored again and again. It would be great ifyou can wind down the previous b Blogspot gradually and migrate people to our blog. I did that, earlier this year. I would rather then keep with the AOO officialdom than revert to the old. No one much reads it now, as I've a) changed topic title and pretty much ceased posting stuff about OOo and even AOO, and b), it's boring as heck. Like, who cares about political theory? About open standards and the nefarious efforts to short them or their brave incursions in eGov? ;-/ So, I'll just post the link to official blog in old, and wherever else it makes sense. As the new year progresses, if I have more time, I'd surely like to help out more, and certainly wish to contribute what I can. But we do have really valuable voices here and we do need to include new communities. I can help there-- Ciao louis Ross Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity. On Dec 24, 2011 3:07 AM, Louis Suárez-Potts lui...@gmail.com wrote: On 2011-12-23, at 19:41 , Shane Curcuru wrote: But I have and idea. Why not make a blog post, and then use the new announce list (and various social media channels) to tell this story? That is what we did at an early stage in the PR evolution, before we worked with professional (costly/pro-bono) PR agencies. We maintained--and I still have it in my Blogger account--newsletter.blogspot; prior to that, I maintained newsletter@openoffice and so on. I'd be interested if others would want to rekindle the PR steam engine and start anew. I am much, much less involved in this project's doings, now, fwiw. In short, a *communal* blogpost, as we maintained for a while (Khirano can recall, I am sure) seems apt. I can also ask my far too many press friends and contacts to listen up. But what do we want? Users, developers, contributors? Someone(s) to see that we are not the thawed out undead but freshborn of the living? And so do we simply want the world to see us as a community they can count in and on? Louis
Re: IP Clearance Milestone
Sally, On 2011-12-24, at 05:14 , Sally Khudairi wrote: Thanks, Ross. I'm missing some context here. Who wants to do what, why, and when? We are still speculating. I had raised the idea of issuing a more or less formal press release, as OOo used to. Ross and Dennis pointed me to the official blog for this project hosted on Apache; Ross had suggested we use the blog. My speculation was: We have a release of AOO coming up. We want to (or I want) make it do a couple of things: * inform the world we are here and doing stuff, and that they can join us in the fun; * inform the world that they can use this release in the same way they used prior versions of OOo or other OOo-based products A joint effort of this nature also helps bring together the community; we are all over the map, and the last year has been gestational as well as bewildering. -louis Chat soon. -Sally [from the mobile; pls pardon spacing/spelling errors] -Original Message- From: Ross Gardler Sent: 24/12/2011, 4:45 AM To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Cc: ASF Marketing Publicity Subject: Re: IP Clearance Milestone Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity. On Dec 24, 2011 8:54 AM, Gianluca Turconi pub...@letturefantastiche.com wrote: In data 24 dicembre 2011 alle ore 01:41:34, Shane Curcuru a...@shanecurcuru.org ha scritto: One might look in the obvious place: http://www.apache.org/press/ I read there: Any press release or news announcement that refers to The ASF and/or its projects must be reviewed and approved by the VP, Marketing and Publicity in advance of its distribution. How can that work flow be conciliated with press releases or other infos released in languages other than English? The ASF is a big organisation, we have people who speak most languages, although not all are currently signed up to the press@ list. One thing that seems relatively easy to do (for multi-lingual releases) would be to get the English version approved and translate. It's more difficult when someone wants top make a release in a single language. Thanks for flagging this, I've shared this mail with press@ to see how Sally (VP MP) wants to prepare. Can you take a guess at the languages we are likely to encounter early. Ross Regards, -- Gianluca Turconi Lettura gratuita o acquisto di libri e racconti di fantascienza, fantasy, horror, noir, narrativa fantastica e tradizionale: http://www.letturefantastiche.com/
Re: IP Clearance Milestone
Hi… methinks IM would be easier…. On 2011-12-24, at 10:14 , Sally Khudairi wrote: Thanks, Louis. Not all project announcements from the ASF take place in the form of a press release. Many are blog posts or sent to the annou...@apache.org list. We reserve press releases for formal announcements, such as statements from the Foundation, TLP major version releases, graduating from the Incubator, etc. Thanks, that clarifies things. As such, I'm confident that you'll be able to work with the (P)PMC to sort out the message and dissemination approach as appropriate. We can try. For instance, it may be the case that in usual times a Podling's bleat would not merit Apache's Voice, and that we ought to consider the official Apache PR only for those things that relate more directly to the Apache process, not to the availability of a new release of an app. That would be a useful distinction I think we can work with. Translations then of the blog could be vouched for by the responsable and be part of the blog, too (or link directly to it?). Timing would be as usual: allot a period of time once the original text is done (in whatever language) for localization, and if it's ready by then, great; if not, it goes out as it will. louis Kind regards. -Sally [from the mobile; pls pardon spacing/spelling errors] -Original Message- From: Louis Suárez-Potts Sent: 24/12/2011, 10:08 AM To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Cc: sallykhuda...@yahoo.com; ASF Marketing Publicity Subject: Re: IP Clearance Milestone Hi all, Sorry, read messages in reverse order…. On 2011-12-24, at 06:45 , Ross Gardler wrote: Thanks Sally, So the message to the AOO community is to get the English language versions approved with enough time for translation. Or vice versa, to English. Not all original things start off in English. For single language, non-English releases we need to give as much time as possible, but they still need to go through the usual review process. Who reviews? Say you don't have reviewers for some of the languages….. At the moment, for this release, that's likely not a problem. But, by the end of OOo, we had many languages and many local reps pushing non-anglophone versions (translations, that is). There was no efficient way to synchronize all the languages. We went with major languages, which were usually done first, and then as the less-staffed ones came up with translations, those went out. We had to trust the local lead that her translation was a translation and not page from Monty Python. But, isn't this all about trust, anyway? Louis Ross Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity. On Dec 24, 2011 11:10 AM, Sally Khudairi sallykhuda...@yahoo.com wrote: Ah, thanks, Ross. Yes, I can see the situation where we'd like to issue localized press releases to coincide with the availability of a certain product, feature, or user community. We recently did this for this past week's open letter: in addition to our usual distribution in English, it was also issued over the newswires in German. Hope this helps. -Sally [from the mobile; pls pardon spacing/spelling errors] -Original Message- From: Ross Gardler Sent: 24/12/2011, 5:23 AM To: sallykhuda...@yahoo.com Cc: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; ASF Marketing Publicity Subject: RE: IP Clearance Milestone Sorry Sally It's just a heads up about the potential issue of multi-lingual press releases from AOO. The first instance will be the milestone release in Q1 2012, so no rush. Looking further into the future there may be situations when a national group will want to do their own release. Ross Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity. On Dec 24, 2011 10:14 AM, Sally Khudairi sallykhuda...@yahoo.com wrote:
Re: IP Clearance Milestone
thanks. I confess I was stricken with inconsolable grief that my name had been so transformed to a plant's… but, seriously: gee whiz, let's let trivialities stay trivial. So, enjoy the northern hemisphere's effort at cheer, Louis On 2011-12-24, at 04:46 , Ross Gardler wrote: sorry, auto-correct messed with Louis' name Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity. On Dec 24, 2011 9:39 AM, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: Lotus, please do conduct the kind of outreach you are talking about. However, please now we have an official Apache blog. Let's not use another. It would be great ifyou can wind down the previous b Blogspot gradually and migrate people to our blog. Ross Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity. On Dec 24, 2011 3:07 AM, Louis Suárez-Potts lui...@gmail.com wrote: On 2011-12-23, at 19:41 , Shane Curcuru wrote: But I have and idea. Why not make a blog post, and then use the new announce list (and various social media channels) to tell this story? That is what we did at an early stage in the PR evolution, before we worked with professional (costly/pro-bono) PR agencies. We maintained--and I still have it in my Blogger account--newsletter.blogspot; prior to that, I maintained newsletter@openoffice and so on. I'd be interested if others would want to rekindle the PR steam engine and start anew. I am much, much less involved in this project's doings, now, fwiw. In short, a *communal* blogpost, as we maintained for a while (Khirano can recall, I am sure) seems apt. I can also ask my far too many press friends and contacts to listen up. But what do we want? Users, developers, contributors? Someone(s) to see that we are not the thawed out undead but freshborn of the living? And so do we simply want the world to see us as a community they can count in and on? Louis
Re: IP Clearance Milestone
Hi, On 2011-12-24, at 05:23 , Ross Gardler wrote: Sorry Sally It's just a heads up about the potential issue of multi-lingual press releases from AOO. The first instance will be the milestone release in Q1 2012, so no rush. Indeed. It's the end of the year, I have some time to catch up on emails, and that means: think ahead! Looking further into the future there may be situations when a national group will want to do their own release. Quite. And I would just nuance it: it's not about nations, which organize on the ground resources to help users and contributors but about language, which in diaspora floats above political boundaries, at least in theory, if not in fact. (In fact, it articulates empire.) I would actually be rather interested to see if ASF would even look to this podling as an experiment of sorts, that may be applied to other more or less similar projects. What would be applied: the linguistic float and the PR process. Mind I do not wish to usurp Apache's hierarchical structure; I see that as reasonable and logical. cheers, Louis Ross Sent from my mobile device, please forgive errors and brevity. On Dec 24, 2011 10:14 AM, Sally Khudairi sallykhuda...@yahoo.com wrote:
Re: OpenOffice for mac
Jared, Perhaps you meant 26 December? :-) The way it works is like this: those working on the code--those making the binaries, the stuff we users actually use, do it now pretty much on their own time, which for generally laudable reasons they volunteer to making people like me and you, I'd guess, happy--that we can continue to use OOo (now Apache OpenOffice--new, improved!) on our Macs. Me, I'm enormously thankful not just to Raphael Bircher, whose latest is his greatest and which I use daily, but to the entire Apache community working on this effort. Nearly all are doing this because we feel it's actually important. But not everyone can code and not everyone can contribute directly. But we all can help out as is wanted….. It's a new year. And I'm looking forward to what it offers and what I can offer. Cheers, Louis On 1 January 2012 23:16, Jared Digby jared.di...@gmail.com wrote: You ganna update it last update was 26th January 2011 Jared Digby jared.di...@gmail.com http://jareddigby.webs.com/ http://www.communityatcp.org/jareddigby
Re: [LEGAL] Something to solve: (c) Sun
Wow. louis 2012/1/16 Pavel Janík pa...@janik.cz: Hi, my build log contains 78 instances of: Copyright: 2003 by Sun Microsystems, Inc. It is in this file: main/l10ntools/source/filter/merge/FCFGMerge.java: sOut.append(Copyright: 2003 by Sun Microsystems, Inc.\n); -- Pavel Janík
Re: Website Help
Hi, On 17 January 2012 17:54, kay.schenk kay.sch...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 10:34 AM, Rob Weir robw...@apache.org wrote: On Tue, Jan 17, 2012 at 12:30 PM, Kay Schenk kay.sch...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 11:32 AM, Roman Meisenberg ro...@silenceproductions.net wrote: Hi! I just stumbled upon the Help Wanted page on the Apache Wiki. I would love to help out with the website. I am a web developer and photographer from NYC. How would I go about getting started on this if you still require the help? Hi Roman-- Welcome to the Apache OpenOffice.org project! Ah, yes, our Help Wanted page. OK, some clarification. There are actually *two* websites involved in this project -- the project landing page (also called the developer portal) at: http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/index.html and the user portal ( the migrated legacy www.openoffice.org) at: http://www.openoffice.org/ As is turns out, we were just discussing how the Help Wanted pages is a bit out of date, so what you see there could use some interpretation I think. I think the original help wanted was with respect to the podling website: http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/ It looks like something I would have designed. That is not a good thing ;-) It could really use some CSS Love from someone with a good sense for design. Well maybe Roman would like to contribute this love. ;} Really, I am not so concerned with style on the Help Wanted page as much as currency and completeness. A LOT has happened since this page was created. Yes, it needs some more/different elaboration at this point. Tell me what to do and I can help write the text. it will to a degree be like old times. Bu then, finding out the to-dos took, quite literally, years. And was never fully done. What we did before was also try to distinguish and list (before Moz did this, btw) things that were easier from those that demanded more skill and collaborative work. We don't have to do that here. -louis (invert Campbell: Bliss your followers.)
Re: Double dictionaries for languages
On 18 January 2012 05:35, Marco A.G.Pinto marcoagpi...@mail.telepac.ptwrote: Microsoft Office 2010 allows users to select between Portuguese pre-reform and Portuguese post-reform. I would be great if AOO would allow that too. Can this option be made available via a langpack? Further, wouldn't it depend upon the regular maintenance of the language pack by the community? Have the PT groups indicated their support? I know you are Portuguese, Marco, but do you represent then the PT group? (I know many of them fairly well, and find the community a great one indeed.) louis Kind regards, Marco A.G.Pinto --- On 18-01-2012 01:55, Dennis E. Hamilton wrote: If they've registered a separate language code for one or the other, that should be the answer. Also, is the agreement just with respect to pt-PT or does it apply to pt-BR, etc.? Both dictionaries could be added to the same OXT, just as is done for en-*, but somehow the user has to have a way to choose the appropriate one for a given circumstance. Who knows whether the agreement includes identifiers for use in handling electronic documents and dictionaries? Or has pre-agreement been declared obsolete? - Dennis -Original Message- From: Andrea Pescetti [mailto:pesce...@apache.org pesce...@apache.org] Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2012 14:40 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Double dictionaries for languages On 07/01/2012 Marco A.G.Pinto wrote: Portuguese has suffered a language agreement and now there are two kinds of my language: - pre-agreement - post-agreement... The language is still the same and just the dictionary is changed. Could this be implemented into AOO? I think (but I haven't checked with a recent build, and I'm not 100% sure) that multiple dictionaries for the same language are supported and are merged (i.e., if you enable both an old spelling and a new spelling dictionary, words of either dictionary will be accepted). As for switching between dictionaries, the easiest way I see is installing separate extensions: there is no suitable user interface yet, unfortunately. There's always the hack of defining two separate locales and assigning one to the old spelling and one to the new spelling to change them in real time like American English and British English, but forcing this configuration would break interoperability. Regards, Andrea. --
Re: Conflit Open Office / Smart Notebook
Nicolas, Would you be able to be as precise as possible, and use our Bugzilla to file an issue? As you must be aware, being in support services, using Bugzilla and being specific are really the magic words that open doors. FWIW, I use SMART checking on my notebook, too--a Mac OS X Macbook--and have not encountered difficulties. But I and others would indeed be interested to learn more--but via the proper channels. Ah, bien sûr, nous parlons toujours en anglais ici; Google translate fait les traductions qui suffit, je crois. ciao Louis 2012/1/18 Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@googlemail.com: Hi, it doesn't change anything when you repeat your email in French. First of all your initial email was to unspecified. You should provide a little bit more input on your specific problem or if possible a reference link to the related issue (if it already exists). Second you should keep in mind that you post on a mailing list of a project where volunteers do the work. You can't request anything and you get an reply only if somebody feels confident enough to answer your question. Regards Juergen PS: who also wants many things fast but never got it On 1/18/12 1:17 PM, Nicolas Costa wrote: Bonjour, J'ai un conflit avec open office et le logiciel SMART NoteBook (tableau interactif). OS : Windows XP SP3. Les symptômes : lorsque j'utilise OO, que je prends un stylet, le logiciel OO monte en processus CPU pour au final planter entièrement. Je suis obligé de passer par le gestionnaire pour le killer. Cordialement. -Message d'origine- De : Jean-Paul Chiron [mailto:jpchi...@sud-ouest.org] Envoyé : mercredi 18 janvier 2012 12:38 À : Nicolas Costa Objet : Re: Conflit Open Office / Smart Notebook Bonjour, votre demande est trop floue pour avoir une réponse. C'est quoi les symptôme, quels sont les logiciels installés, l'OS, le matériel... Cordialement. Le 18/01/2012 09:27, Nicolas Costa a écrit : Hello, I always meet at present a conflict between the OpenOffice software and SMART Notebook software. Do you have a final resolution for this dysfunction that causes me harm to our client. I want an answer fast because this defect has lasted more than six months. Best regards Nicolas Costa Support Technique HelpDesk / WebDEV Avenue de Terrefort 33520 Bruges Support Technique : +33 5 56 16 87 78 Fax : +33 5 56 16 87 78 -Informations légales--- -- - Ce message et toutes les pièces jointes sont confidentiels et établis à l'attention exclusive de ses destinataires. Le message reste la propriété exclusive de PSI-Informatique. Toute utilisation ou diffusion non autorisée est interdite. Tout message électronique est susceptible d'altération. PSI-Informatique décline toute responsabilité au titre de ce message s'il a été altéré, déformé ou falsifié. The contents of this message and its attachments are confidential and are intended for the exclusive attention and use of the addressee(s). The message and attachments remain the exclusive property of PSI-Informatique Any non-authorised use or distribution of their contents is strictly prohibited. It is a well-known fact that any electronic message may be subject to unauthorised alteration. In this respect, PSI-Informatique declines all responsibility with regard to this message should it be altered, deformed or falsified in any way whatsoever.
Re: Double dictionaries for languages
Hi, On 18 January 2012 09:58, Marco A.G.Pinto marcoagpi...@mail.telepac.ptwrote: I am in contact with the Portuguese persons who maintain the OpenOffice and Firefox/Thunderbird PT dictionaries. In António's site he has PT spellers (pre and post reform). Great; and I presume that there are no IP issues to worry about. I've had discussions with some members of this community many years ago regarding trying to coordinate and collaborate, so that we all--those of us doing Foss work and dictionary words and so on, and that includes the nice people at Mozilla--do not simply duplicate effort, waste time, and sow confusion. What procedures, then, are required to do what you want and to ensure that there will be regular maintenance of these dictionaries? Thanks louis Kind regards, Marco A.G.Pinto --- On 18-01-2012 14:53, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote: On 18 January 2012 05:35, Marco A.G.Pinto marcoagpi...@mail.telepac.ptwrote: Microsoft Office 2010 allows users to select between Portuguese pre-reform and Portuguese post-reform. I would be great if AOO would allow that too. Can this option be made available via a langpack? Further, wouldn't it depend upon the regular maintenance of the language pack by the community? Have the PT groups indicated their support? I know you are Portuguese, Marco, but do you represent then the PT group? (I know many of them fairly well, and find the community a great one indeed.) louis --
Re: Sopa
Hi, On 18 January 2012 09:57, Damjan Jovanovic dam...@apache.org wrote: On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 4:35 PM, Donald Whytock dwhyt...@gmail.com wrote: As much as it would make a helluva statement, there's people out there who might really need to get the latest security patch of some Apache product right now. Acting responsibly is part of the burden of being the good guys. It's why the bad guys sometimes win. Don There are ways to make a statement non-destructively. Wikipedia works fine from mobile devices and with Javascript disabled. Arstechnica changes the background color and has a notice at the top of each page. May I suggest then that if individuals want to make a statement they do so (look to Wordpress or fightforthefuture)? I have done so on my Wordpress blog (www.luispo.com). And I would also like to see if there is consensus to post a banner on the podling page indicating our support, if we do support it, for the Sopa and Pipa protest. -louis
Re: Conflit Open Office / Smart Notebook
All: Please keep in mind that not everyone is as proficient in English as you are. Nicolas seems to have used a not so great translator; hence the infelicities of word usage. (He seems, actually, to be francophone.) So, take allowances and keep in mind how what you say will be translated into another language….. (and then cringe, or not). cheers, Louis On 18 January 2012 10:45, eric b eric.bach...@free.fr wrote: Le 18 janv. 12 à 09:27, Nicolas Costa a écrit : Hello, Hello, I always meet at present a conflict between the OpenOffice software and SMART Notebook software. To help you, what we need is to reproduce your issue. If I'm not wrong, you probably are talking about the annotation mode (needs to be confirmed though), and I think know well the concerned code, but we need more information to figure out what happens. Could you please be more precise ? Both software are running in same time, or ... ? What hardware is used ? Is there some hardware shared e.g. ... and so on. Just a simple question, to start : is SMART Notebook open source software ? Do you have a final resolution for this dysfunction that causes me harm to our client. FYI, I'm not paid for answering you. I want an answer fast because this defect has lasted more than six months. Sorry, but Crystal ball mode is not yet implemented. Does an issue exist, describing the problem ? (do you have links, bug description ?) Thanks in advance :-) Regards, Eric Bachard -- qɔᴉɹə Projet OOo4Kids : http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/Main_Page L'association EducOOo : http://www.educoo.org Blog : http://eric.bachard.org/news
18 Jan 2012: SOPA and PIPA Protest Banner
All, Proposal: 1. Let's vote on supporting those who have protested the proposed US bills supposed to combat piracy but actually doing a lot more than that and none of it good. These two proposals: SOPA and PIPA. Wikipedia has a fair account: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act 2. I would propose we post on the Apache OpenOffice podling site this language, for remainder of the day, to be taken down at the onset of 19 January 2012 GMT. ** The Apache OpenOffice Podling members support those who have darkened their Web sites as a unified gesture to protect the freedoms of the Internet and stop misguided legislation that would threaten them. ** I would propose further that we have the text white on a black banner at the top of every podling page. Please vote as soon as you can, as obviously time is of the essence. thanks louis PS I'm cc'ing the ASF marketing and publicity list. Quite possible that Apache will say no, if so, that's fine. Better we act as a body together. But I would also suggest that ASF take the lead here and issue a statement, if they have not done so already.
Fwd: Prix Ars Electronica 2012 - Call for Entries
Maybe. Louis -- Forwarded message -- From: Prix Ars Electronica i...@prixars.aec.at Date: 18 January 2012 08:17 Subject: Prix Ars Electronica 2012 - Call for Entries To: Louis Suarez-Potts lui...@mac.com [Click here if the mail fails to display properly]http://mlwrx.com/sys/wv.aspx?sub=0LU3V_RFAJImid=f6ef6a18 ARS ELECTRONICA [image: prix_webbanner_001]http://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=0LU3V_RFAJIlnk=082CV *Prix Ars Electronica 2012 - Call for Entries* *The Prix Ars Electronica 2012 - International Competition for CyberArts is open for entries!* From its very inception in 1987, the Prix Ars Electronica is an open platform for various disciplines at the intersection of art, technology, science and society. The event calls for entries in seven categories, including a youth competition. Forwardhttp://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sl=G7C6Smid=f6ef6a18sub=0LU3V_RFAJI Change datahttp://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sl=FTTBAmid=f6ef6a18sub=0LU3V_RFAJI Unsubscribehttp://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sl=INZQUmid=f6ef6a18sub=0LU3V_RFAJI *Prix Ars Electronica 2012* Online Submission: httphttp://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=0LU3V_RFAJIlnk=1IJB1 ://prixars http://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=0LU3V_RFAJIlnk=1IJB1.aechttp://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=0LU3V_RFAJIlnk=1IJB1 .at http://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=0LU3V_RFAJIlnk=1IJB1 Deadline: March 02, 2012 Contact: i...@prixars.aec.athttp://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=0LU3V_RFAJIlnk=S0T2R *Categories:* http://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=0LU3V_RFAJIlnk=X81AY Computer Animation/Film/VFX Digital Musics Sound Art Interactive Art Hybrid Art Digital Communities [the next idea] voestalpine Art and Technology Grant u19 Create Your World (only for Austria, see details: wwwhttp://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=0LU3V_RFAJIlnk=I6AIM .u19 http://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=0LU3V_RFAJIlnk=I6AIM.athttp://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=0LU3V_RFAJIlnk=I6AIM ) *Prizes:* http://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=0LU3V_RFAJIlnk=WV9WK Prize money (total): € 117.500 6 Golden Nicas 12 Awards of Distinctions [the next idea] voestalpine Art and Technology Grant up to 70 Honorary Mentions Looking forward to your submissions! Your Prix Ars Electronica Team 2012 #134f0f74aa8e9e90_contents Change datahttp://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sl=FTTBAmid=f6ef6a18sub=0LU3V_RFAJI- Unsubscribehttp://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sl=INZQUmid=f6ef6a18sub=0LU3V_RFAJI- Contact http://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=0LU3V_RFAJIlnk=HUIOT Impressum: Ars Electronica Linz GmbH | Ars-Electronica-Straße 1 | A-4040 Linz Tel. +43.732.7272.58 | Fax +43.732.7272.2 | E-Mail: i...@prixars.aec.athttp://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=0LU3V_RFAJIlnk=ZI3EU| Web: www http://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=0LU3V_RFAJIlnk=X2A1Z.aechttp://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=0LU3V_RFAJIlnk=X2A1Z .at/prix http://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=0LU3V_RFAJIlnk=X2A1Z This mail was created with mailworxhttp://mlwrx.com/sys/rd.aspx?sub=0LU3V_RFAJIsl=W1SE9 ®.
Re: [RELEASE]: updating copyright and vendor in created packages
Not 2012? louis 2012/1/18 Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@googlemail.com: On 1/18/12 1:56 PM, Jürgen Schmidt wrote: Hi, it's again me who need advice or better feedback for a change. We build several package files for our binary releases (rpm, deb, pkg). The files contain a copyright and vendor string. I think both can be changed to Apache because we are now preparing and provide these packages under the hood of Apache, correct? In an earlier email I have mentioned this already and in some cases it is copyright = 1999-2009 by OpenOffice.org and vendor = OpenOffice.org which doesn't make sense at all. If nobody complains or raise further concerns I would change it to copyright = 2011 by The Apache Document Foundation should be copyright = 2011 by The Apache Software Foundation Juergen vendor = Apache Software Foundation I will also clarify with Andrew Rist if it's ok to change the Copyright statement in the About box and move the Oracle Copyright part in the NOTICE file. Regards Juergen
Re: 18 Jan 2012: SOPA and PIPA Protest Banner
Dennis, Read over Don's post. He was using an analogy, I believe, to make a point about SOPA. Louis On 18 January 2012 13:53, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote: Don, What's your understanding of the connection between open-source encryption algorithms and SOPA/PIPA? Where is there more information available? Are you talking about the encryption methods themselves or the *use* of encryption in support of piracy. Those are different. With regard to encryption software at Apache, there are existing provisions by which encryption in ASF releases are registered with the US Government. The methods being provided in open-source is part of what makes them permissible. Also, the *current* OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice releases incorporate open-source encryption methods. Apache OpenOffice developer snapshots do as well (though there may be some short-term impact with the removal of dependencies on libraries whose licenses are incompatible with ALv2). - Dennis -Original Message- From: Donald Whytock [mailto:dwhyt...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 09:56 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: 18 Jan 2012: SOPA and PIPA Protest Banner This showed up on Yahoo today... http://news.yahoo.com/wikipedia-editors-sites-blackout-120914984.html Apparently some feel that Wikipedia shouldn't take any political stands at all...that it sets a bad precedent and potentially damages its reputation. Me, I think Wikipedia isn't taking a political stand as much as a personal one, since the legislation affects Wikipedia directly. But perceptions are subjective. I think Apache in general, and perhaps AOO in particular, could also take a personal stand. After all, if I'm reading the EFF analysis correctly, one good open-source encryption implementation could get Apache shut down. Weren't y'all discussing encryption standards and implementations here a few months ago? Don
Re: 18 Jan 2012: SOPA and PIPA Protest Banner
Thanks, Dennis: that was a good revelation. Sopa and Pipa are more than intrusive vehicles and worse than structures for arbitrary censorship (arbitrary: power wielded by unaccountable entities in the service of their own interests). The two bills sediment a regime of legacy power over the creation and distribution of content (read: data) that the Internet has, I love to think, gone a great way to disassemble. (Internet as inclusive of SMS and other non-Web data relays.) The bills are very poorly written but not, I'm afraid, poorly thought out. At least, my paranoia tells me that we will see more of the same before long, as legacy power has extraordinary longevity. But I hope and do more than hope, I try to act on my beliefs, that the communities that make up the Web and make it what it is (and Apache is at the centre in so many ways), will resist such dead and deadening power the way living things do: unspecified but nevertheless moving, and sometimes even in obvious community. -louis On 18 January 2012 16:14, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote: Answering my own question a little: In the previous part of the 3-part EFF article, it is mentioned that making it difficult to discover whether some content is infringing can be a violation of SOPA/PIPA. Whether this can reach beyond a suspicious use of encryption to the software used to perform encryption and the format of the encryption is not clear. This raises a common problem about the fact of encryption being a smoking gun for intervention without protections of due process (and privacy in confidential communications). That is worrisome by itself, although I can see easier ridiculous cases. For example, consider a privately-shared folder on Windows Live Skydrive involving no encryption there but with commonly used encryption for transport-level security. An ODF package can already be used for encryption and communication of a pirated digital work. Should all implementers of the encryption provisions be worried? Probably not. [It may still be very sloppy law and any self-deputizing of vigilante enforcers is a terrible notion.] - Dennis -Original Message- From: Dennis E. Hamilton [mailto:dennis.hamil...@acm.org] Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 12:42 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: RE: 18 Jan 2012: SOPA and PIPA Protest Banner I agree that the EFF tends to go hyperbolic. The only specific case mentioned is the anti-circumvention aspect of the DMCA. But providing encryption software is not a way to circumvent DRM. This passage is peculiar: Essentially any software product or service, such as many encryption programs, that is not responsive to blocking orders could be under threat. I am left puzzled about what is a blocking order against a software product, and how do SOPA/PIPA reach there? What does it mean for a software product to be non-responsive? If anyone has an explanation tied to details in the proposed legislation, it would be interesting to know if there is then a matter for ASF concern. (I am not in favor of SOPA/PIPA; I am in favor of getting the facts straight.) - Dennis -Original Message- From: Donald Whytock [mailto:dwhyt...@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2012 11:39 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: 18 Jan 2012: SOPA and PIPA Protest Banner Including the list this time. Watch those reply-tos, Dennis...:) On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 1:53 PM, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote: Don, What's your understanding of the connection between open-source encryption algorithms and SOPA/PIPA? Where is there more information available? This was the EFF article I saw on the topic: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/11/hollywood-new-war-on-software-freedom-and-internet-innovation It's a little alarmist, but the general tone is that if some idiot can think there's any relationship between software that hides information and efforts to circumvent DNS censorship, the site that provides said software can find itself blocked. Feel free to substitute government official for idiot as needed. Seriously, how many politicians do you know that really know what security software does? They don't have to be right. They just have to have the authority.
Re: 18 Jan 2012: SOPA and PIPA Protest Banner
Of course. The travail of being new here: I kept waiting. Silly me: open source is about doing it yourself, in community, not about watching others do it for you. That's TV. louis On 18 January 2012 17:53, Danese Cooper dan...@gmail.com wrote: While it might have been appropriate for ASF projects such as AOO to join today's SOPA/PIPA protest, I agree that it's too late to coordinate now. The Wikipedia community has been working towards their protest action for more than a week, including a town hall meeting and other consensus-verification processes. Even so, there is today an interview with a community member who doesn't like the action they've taken. In short, I just don't think we have time to socialize such an action on the part of even the AOO project before the protest would be over. D On Jan 18, 2012, at 8:05 AM, Louis Suárez-Potts lo...@apache.org wrote: All, Proposal: 1. Let's vote on supporting those who have protested the proposed US bills supposed to combat piracy but actually doing a lot more than that and none of it good. These two proposals: SOPA and PIPA. Wikipedia has a fair account: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act 2. I would propose we post on the Apache OpenOffice podling site this language, for remainder of the day, to be taken down at the onset of 19 January 2012 GMT. ** The Apache OpenOffice Podling members support those who have darkened their Web sites as a unified gesture to protect the freedoms of the Internet and stop misguided legislation that would threaten them. ** I would propose further that we have the text white on a black banner at the top of every podling page. Please vote as soon as you can, as obviously time is of the essence. thanks louis PS I'm cc'ing the ASF marketing and publicity list. Quite possible that Apache will say no, if so, that's fine. Better we act as a body together. But I would also suggest that ASF take the lead here and issue a statement, if they have not done so already.
Re: 18 Jan 2012: SOPA and PIPA Protest Banner
Thanks, Shane. Nothing is not political, if someone else has an opinion differing from yours and the ability to represent it. So I was indeed intrigued by Wikipedia's dark action yesterday, as it too seems to be a nonprofit, no? But I would only work with the Board to promote those things that are in the interest of Apache, of course. For instance, the protest yesterday, but one can suppose even more dramatic instances--and they would have to be dramatic indeed to enjoin the entire collective. best Louis On 19 January 2012 11:29, Shane Curcuru a...@shanecurcuru.org wrote: On 2012-01-18 11:11 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote: Sally, On 18 January 2012 22:11, Sally Khudairis...@apache.org wrote: Sorry, Louis -- not ignoring you; have been offsite for most of the day. Actually, not a problem. I knew when I posted my first of several messages late last night that it was way, way too late. But I had waited for ASF to do something obvious on its own behalf, and when it didn't--and when no one on the A OO list did, either--I thought at the least I'd raise the issue, conscious of its belatedness; indeed, that was part of the point, and I should hope that for the next time (and there will be no end of next times) we can act before not after it's too late. Usually we (ASF Marketing Publicity) need more than same-day notice to coordinate such efforts. I know there's been discussion about this on the Membership side as well, but the consensus (thus far) is to not black out *.apache.org, as was suggested. No further action has been decided upon, IIRC. Evidently. Let's also keep in mind that the ASF Infrastructure team need to be kept abreast of any decisions/proposals here as well, as they're the ones capable of pulling the trigger on the site. I am conscious of these things. So. Let's imagine that I want to get ASF to do something reflecting the will of at least one of its podlings. As was pointed out, we here can put up a demonstration. But how would I go about persuading the ASF directorate? And is there any kind of apparatus (political, technical) that would even allow for the entire domain to reflect a banner message? (I'd assume, yes, but one never knows.) By ASF directorate do you mean the board? 8-) In terms of politics, I think you'll find the ASF Membership generally stays out of politics, at least in terms of official ASF messages (although many Members certainly have their own strongly held and blogged views!). In terms of technology, the infra team can provide advice and implement all sorts of cool things on the website if necessary. The list of ASF officers is public: http://www.apache.org/foundation/ And this is a somewhat helpful overview of corporate structure: http://apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html#structure For this kind of question, it's really first up to a sufficient group of ASF Members who also volunteer to help do the work of publishing any theoretical apache.org top level website message. Depending on the situation, we'd certainly ask press@ for advice on how to make the message most effective. And any official statement would either be voted on by the board@, or would be signed by a specific ASF officer, depending on what topic it's on. But historically we've shown that the ASF tends to take official positions rarely, and only about fundamental issues that are likely to affect all of our projects. My general impression of the Membership is that we don't want to be an advocacy group: we merely want to provide a good home for like-minded projects who choose to come here. Individual projects are obviously allowed to manage their own websites as they wish, as long as they respect ASF policy and don't cross the line into types of lobbying that we're not allowed to do (for our particular kind of non-profit status in the US). - Shane Thanks louis Thanks, Sally = = = = = Boston +1 617 921 8656 London +44 (0) 20 3239 9686 skype sallykhudairi From: Louis Suárez-Pottslo...@apache.org To: ooo-dev@incubatorooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; ASF Marketing Marketing Publicitypr...@apache.org Sent: Wednesday, 18 January 2012, 11:05 Subject: 18 Jan 2012: SOPA and PIPA Protest Banner All, Proposal: 1. Let's vote on supporting those who have protested the proposed US bills supposed to combat piracy but actually doing a lot more than that and none of it good. These two proposals: SOPA and PIPA. Wikipedia has a fair account: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act 2. I would propose we post on the Apache OpenOffice podling site this language, for remainder of the day, to be taken down at the onset of 19 January 2012 GMT. ** The Apache OpenOffice Podling members support those who have darkened their Web sites as a unified gesture to protect the freedoms of the Internet and stop misguided legislation that would threaten them. ** I
Re: Program an add-on for Word
Dennis, and also Joost (hello!) I found your comments and suggestions really useful. Thanks. Perhaps I could post them to my blog, ooo-speak? or we could link these to the A OO homepage? For others will surely have similar. (wii would do, too.) louis On 23 January 2012 11:14, Dennis E. Hamilton dennis.hamil...@acm.org wrote: If you want to interact with Microsoft Office Word documents, you might also consider the Apache POI project, which provides Java APIs specifically for that purpose: http://poi.apache.org/. If you want to interact with the Microsoft Office applications (not just the documents), you need to use the interop features of those applications. That sort of information is available via MSDN Online. That interaction is via an Object Model that involves use of OLE Automation or .NET programming (VB.net, C#, etc). I assume you mean Open Office Writer, not Open Word, and the links from Joost are a good place to start. There is also information on the OpenOffice Forums at http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/ where the use of scripts and macros might be an easier start. Look under Customizing and Extending. And, if you want a way to learn some things about programming, consider joining the Codecademy Year of Code. There have been two lessons so far so you can catch up reasonably quickly: http://www.codecademy.com/. There is an active QA where beginners help each other over any rough spots. It starts with JavaScript. That provides an easy on-ramp to use of some fundamental concepts that are adaptable to what you will need in using any other programming model. (I don't know when other languages will be introduced, although I think Python is on their list also.) - Dennis -Original Message- From: Joost Andrae [mailto:joost.and...@gmx.de] Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 06:37 To: ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org Subject: Re: Program an add-on for Word Hi Amos, probably reading the pages at http://www.openoffice.org/api/ might be a good place to start with. Am 23.01.2012 06:08, schrieb Amos Denny: Hi, i know very little about programming but I would like to write a program that will interact with currently existing MS word or Open Word. If you could give me some place to start I would really appreciate it. I would like to know what kind of programming I need to learn or where to get started. Thank you for our time. Amos Kind regards, Joost
Re: 18 Jan 2012: SOPA and PIPA Protest Banner
Thanks, but I meant informal mention. I sometimes informally mention things related to this, and also ODF. (Nonsense words? iPad's spellchecker.) -- Louis Suárez-Potts On 2012-01-23, at 23:31, Sally Khudairi s...@apache.org wrote: Hi Louis -- Regarding your query on issuing a statement on the ASF blog (or otherwise), this is something that you --the collective Apache OpenOffice.org iPMC-- can do. As you're still undergoing incubation, the ASF Marketing Publicity team are unable to issue press releases or make any formal announcements regarding the project. When you become a TLP, we can kick that into gear by helping with major milestone announcements. In the meantime, feel free to send a note to the ASF Infrastructure team to receive posting credentials for blogs.apache.org. As long as there's consensus within the iPMC of what will be posted on behalf of the incubating project, you're good to go. I know that Don Harbison (copied) is coordinating much of this on behalf of the project. Should there not be consensus regarding issuing a statement, the you may post something on your personal blog or elsewhere, but must make it absolutely clear that it is your personal opinion and that you are not representing the ASF or the Apache OpenOffice.org iPMC or community -at large. Cheers, Sally = = = = = Boston +1 617 921 8656 London +44 (0) 20 3239 9686 skype sallykhudairi From: Louis Suárez-Potts lo...@apache.org To: Sally Khudairi s...@apache.org Cc: ooo-dev@incubator ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; ASF Marketing Marketing Publicity pr...@apache.org Sent: Wednesday, 18 January 2012, 23:11 Subject: Re: 18 Jan 2012: SOPA and PIPA Protest Banner Sally, On 18 January 2012 22:11, Sally Khudairi s...@apache.org wrote: Sorry, Louis -- not ignoring you; have been offsite for most of the day. Actually, not a problem. I knew when I posted my first of several messages late last night that it was way, way too late. But I had waited for ASF to do something obvious on its own behalf, and when it didn't--and when no one on the A OO list did, either--I thought at the least I'd raise the issue, conscious of its belatedness; indeed, that was part of the point, and I should hope that for the next time (and there will be no end of next times) we can act before not after it's too late. Usually we (ASF Marketing Publicity) need more than same-day notice to coordinate such efforts. I know there's been discussion about this on the Membership side as well, but the consensus (thus far) is to not black out *.apache.org, as was suggested. No further action has been decided upon, IIRC. Evidently. Let's also keep in mind that the ASF Infrastructure team need to be kept abreast of any decisions/proposals here as well, as they're the ones capable of pulling the trigger on the site. I am conscious of these things. So. Let's imagine that I want to get ASF to do something reflecting the will of at least one of its podlings. As was pointed out, we here can put up a demonstration. But how would I go about persuading the ASF directorate? And is there any kind of apparatus (political, technical) that would even allow for the entire domain to reflect a banner message? (I'd assume, yes, but one never knows.) Thanks louis Thanks, Sally = = = = = Boston +1 617 921 8656 London +44 (0) 20 3239 9686 skype sallykhudairi From: Louis Suárez-Potts lo...@apache.org To: ooo-dev@incubator ooo-dev@incubator.apache.org; ASF Marketing Marketing Publicity pr...@apache.org Sent: Wednesday, 18 January 2012, 11:05 Subject: 18 Jan 2012: SOPA and PIPA Protest Banner All, Proposal: 1. Let's vote on supporting those who have protested the proposed US bills supposed to combat piracy but actually doing a lot more than that and none of it good. These two proposals: SOPA and PIPA. Wikipedia has a fair account: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act 2. I would propose we post on the Apache OpenOffice podling site this language, for remainder of the day, to be taken down at the onset of 19 January 2012 GMT. ** The Apache OpenOffice Podling members support those who have darkened their Web sites as a unified gesture to protect the freedoms of the Internet and stop misguided legislation that would threaten them. ** I would propose further that we have the text white on a black banner at the top of every podling page. Please vote as soon as you can, as obviously time is of the essence. thanks louis PS I'm cc'ing the ASF marketing and publicity list. Quite possible that Apache will say no, if so, that's fine. Better we act as a body together. But I would also suggest that ASF take the lead here and issue a statement, if they have not done so already.
Re: Request to use Extension / Templat drupal code
Drew, Sorry for late reply…. On 25 January 2012 13:20, drew d...@baseanswers.com wrote: Hi, I put this request to the infra ML the other day, but likely should of put it here first. I would like to get a copy of the Drupal code currently running the extension and template sites. After re-branding, of course, and other changes TBD would use this for distribution with the Small Business Server VM I'm working on - specifically: use as a OTB local repository service. What would be a real use case scenario? Being concrete here would be useful, though I doubt it would affect the decision. License wise for the custom modules etc, from what I gather would have to be GPL2 or newer so for hosting of custom pieces sourceforge would seem a natural fit in this case :) Speaking of SF - I suppose it could be done that way also, instead of getting the code via ASF, acquire it from SF. Yes, but I tend to think, from experience, that centralizing efforts actually helps things, though SF is such well-trod territory that I doubt there'd be surprises. My reasoning has to do not with proximate location but license coherence. Not much of an issue here, now, but it could be, as we are all aware. Anyway not a big rush for my purposes but would like to get the ball rolling if possible. Any thoughts, suggestions would be most welcomed. If I understand you rightly, I think the more ideas you have on this subject you are willing to share, the better. Thanks, //drew Cheers, Louis
admin permissions on old OOo
Hi all, I used to have admin permissions on the old site. I no longer seem to. I receive requests (as does Florian E.) to delete mail mistakenly posted to the public lists, but I cannot do much about it directly. I can route to those who *do* have admin permissions on the old site, if you like. There are other small things to do, too, that require admin on the Kenai site. If none of this is needed, good to hear. But the messages are there still. thanks Louis
Re: admin permissions on old OOo
On 30 January 2012 13:35, Dave Fisher dave2w...@comcast.net wrote: On Jan 30, 2012, at 8:26 AM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote: Hi all, I used to have admin permissions on the old site. I no longer seem to. I receive requests (as does Florian E.) to delete mail mistakenly posted to the public lists, but I cannot do much about it directly. I can route to those who *do* have admin permissions on the old site, if you like. There are other small things to do, too, that require admin on the Kenai site. You should be able to get to the old site, but it will be going away. I can easily get to the old site. The point of my email was that I no longer have admin privileges. I need them to do the things asked of me. If none of this is needed, good to hear. But the messages are there still. As soon as we decide to cut it off we will. We thought we needed to keep it around for template and extension site login, but that is already broken. I did find it necessary to go to the Kenai svn to finish the specs migration, but that was done by altering my /etc/hosts/. Is it time to remove the old OOo? Yes. Regards, Dave louis
Re: admin permissions on old OOo
Hi On 30 January 2012 14:07, Shane Curcuru a...@shanecurcuru.org wrote: On 2012-01-30 1:37 PM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote: On 30 January 2012 13:35, Dave Fisherdave2w...@comcast.net wrote: On Jan 30, 2012, at 8:26 AM, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote: Hi all, I used to have admin permissions on the old site. I no longer seem to. I receive requests (as does Florian E.) to delete mail mistakenly posted to the public lists, but I cannot do much about it directly. I can route to those who *do* have admin permissions on the old site, if you like. There are other small things to do, too, that require admin on the Kenai site. You should be able to get to the old site, but it will be going away. I can easily get to the old site. The point of my email was that I no longer have admin privileges. I need them to do the things asked of me. What specific things are being asked of you? To remove a specific email message posted to a public list (documentation) by mistake. Why aren't they being brought to the list (either details, or at least an overview of what this work is about)? Because the person wanting the removal, I presume, did not know about the new changes. I have no problem explaining things--have--but I'm simply laying out the facts. What of this work will still need to be done once the old site goes away? No idea, as not sure what precisely will replace the old. Actually, and my apologias, but I have to fill in a lot of gaps in your question to arrive at any kind of sense. I think you mean, Speaking of this matter, where you had admin privileges that allowed you to do things on behalf of mistaken users, will you, or someone like you, still be needing that order of privilege, once we decommission and remove the old site? Removal would mean that all queries related to admin tasks would have to come to this public list, which required subscription. The interesting thing, perhaps: Would the old archives holding the mistaken mail posts also migrate and if so would they still need ad hoc pruning per request? I'd goes two yeas won't make a nay. louis - Shane If none of this is needed, good to hear. But the messages are there still. As soon as we decide to cut it off we will. We thought we needed to keep it around for template and extension site login, but that is already broken. I did find it necessary to go to the Kenai svn to finish the specs migration, but that was done by altering my /etc/hosts/. Is it time to remove the old OOo? Yes. Regards, Dave louis
Re: admin permissions on old OOo
On 30 January 2012 14:45, TJ Frazier tjfraz...@cfl.rr.com wrote: If the message is on one of the two documentation ML's (author or dev @doc.oo.o) I can remove it, or at least the SYMPA page says I can. You or the user can mail me at tjfraz...@openoffice.org, or bring the matter to this list (ooo-dev). I need sender and date. I'll send it to you directly, as that is what the affected user would want. Louis /tj/ (owner + moderator, authors and dev)
Re: admin permissions on old OOo
Ross, On 30 January 2012 15:57, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 30 January 2012 19:45, TJ Frazier tjfraz...@cfl.rr.com wrote: On 1/30/2012 14:22, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote: ... What specific things are being asked of you? To remove a specific email message posted to a public list (documentation) by mistake. If the message is on one of the two documentation ML's (author or dev @doc.oo.o) I can remove it, or at least the SYMPA page says I can. You or the user can mail me at tjfraz...@openoffice.org, or bring the matter to this list (ooo-dev). I need sender and date. The ASF has a policy of *not* removing mails in the majority of cases. It simply is not possible to do so since our mailing lists are archived all over the place. See http://www.apache.org/foundation/public-archives.html ... Why aren't they being brought to the list (either details, or at least an overview of what this work is about)? Because the person wanting the removal, I presume, did not know about the new changes. I have no problem explaining things--have--but I'm simply laying out the facts. The point is that you are not a contact point for the AOO project, this list is. If you, as a single individual, choose to act on requests like these and others that you frequently claim are coming your way you will quickly run out of time or you will fail to address the requests. Please share everything here (or on the private lists if absolutely necessary). I do not pretend to anyone, least of all you, that I am a contact person for anything related to AOO. I do not act on requests that I cannot act on, and do relay to those querying me (and Florian, for that matter) the facts. I also do not appreciate your tone and implication that I am falsifying claims. I will send to TJ the concerned user's request. Louis Personally I would rather see you spending time addressing the issue with SPI funds since you are the named individual dealing with the SPI (or alternatively indicating that you do not intend to do so, thereby making way for someone else to do it). Ross
Re: [BUILD]: propose next Developer snapshot builds based on revision r1236920
Thanks, Juergen, Am playing with it now and will send in comments. But, honestly, I seldom find issues, at least the way I play with it. Thanks. louis On 30 January 2012 15:48, Jürgen Schmidt jogischm...@googlemail.com wrote: On 1/30/12 11:38 AM, Jürgen Schmidt wrote: Hi, I would like to propose that we prepare the next set of dev snapshots based on the revision r1236920. The buildbot has successfully build this revision and I think we can use it for the next snapshot builds. The builds will be made available again under https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/OOOUSERS/AOO+3.4+Unofficial+Developer+Snapshots MacOS builds uploaded and available Juergen
Re: admin permissions on old OOo
Ross, I've been doing this for 10 years, far longer than you. And I have coordinated more online and open source communities, too, I'd guess. I do have canned responses, but these no longer apply, given the new situation. As it happens, the number of outlier requests has dropped precipitously over the last two months, as AOO builds steam. I receive, now, very few, and those I do, I quickly route to this proper project. Sorry if I bristled. I accept, of course, advice all the time; even from my mother in law, always from my spouse, and even from kind strangers :-). Louis On 30 January 2012 16:18, Ross Gardler rgard...@opendirective.com wrote: On 30 January 2012 21:04, Louis Suárez-Potts lsuarezpo...@gmail.com wrote: I also do not appreciate your tone and implication that I am falsifying claims. That was not my intention, nor what I said. My point is that you tell us you are receiving trademark requests and other such items, but these never seem to get forwarded to the PPMC. I did not mean to imply you are falsifying these claims, but only indicating that they are only claims if we do not have the the items passed to us. That is I am using the word claim as defined at http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/claim - which says nothing of falsification. My apologies for any unintentional offence caused. My point is that all such requests should either be forwarded to this list or the poster should be requested to repost it themselves. Personally I have a canned response for just this purpose. I can't deal with the number of personal emails I get relating to various projects. I only meant to provide you with some friendly advice. Ross I will send to TJ the concerned user's request. Louis Personally I would rather see you spending time addressing the issue with SPI funds since you are the named individual dealing with the SPI (or alternatively indicating that you do not intend to do so, thereby making way for someone else to do it). Ross -- Ross Gardler (@rgardler) Programme Leader (Open Development) OpenDirective http://opendirective.com
Re: admin permissions on old OOo
On 30 January 2012 17:24, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Hi, Rob Weir wrote on 2012-01-30 23:23: 2) If the question is sensitive, personal, confidential, etc.., then ask them to send it to the ooo-private list. Again, they do not need to subscribe. Anyone can post. that's a clear answer - thanks for that. Will point future requests to this list then. Likewise. BTW, a lot of this hubbub was the product of mistimed emails. Were we all using IM or Twitter or something like, this tempest in a teacup would not have occurred. -louis Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Chairman of the Board at The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff
Re: admin permissions on old OOo
FWIW, OOo had a policy like ASF's, but I and others honoured exceptions, and they were exceptions. They were infrequent, and we made it clear that expunging from the OOo lists was not likely to be a panacea, that once Pandora's uhm, can, had been opened, the worms were free to wriggle where they willed. Louis On 30 January 2012 18:19, TJ Frazier tjfraz...@cfl.rr.com wrote: Ross, I am not taking this personally, but I /am/ replying personally, below. On 1/30/2012 15:57, Ross Gardler wrote: On 30 January 2012 19:45, TJ Fraziertjfraz...@cfl.rr.com wrote: On 1/30/2012 14:22, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote: ... What specific things are being asked of you? To remove a specific email message posted to a public list (documentation) by mistake. If the message is on one of the two documentation ML's (author or dev @doc.oo.o) I can remove it, or at least the SYMPA page says I can. You or the user can mail me at tjfraz...@openoffice.org, or bring the matter to this list (ooo-dev). I need sender and date. The ASF has a policy of *not* removing mails in the majority of cases. It simply is not possible to do so since our mailing lists are archived all over the place. See http://www.apache.org/foundation/public-archives.html Most organizations, like most individuals, have a few suboptimal policies (calling them damn-fool would be rude, so I won't). The ASF is no exception, and this policy is one of them. AFAICS, the rationales for the policy are: (1) Can't do it perfectly. True, but this is the age-old conflict between the good vs. the best, or improvement vs. perfection. I assert that there is no overarching answer to these, hence the decisions must be made at a lower level. In this general case, I lean strongly toward improvement. It is the friendly thing to do, and we build community one friend at a time. (2) Publisher of record. Let's not get too full of ourselves, here. If a post makes a point in a discussion and prompts replies, or otherwise meets some criterion of general importance, I would argue to keep it. If not, and if the user wants it gone, it's toast. (3) Too much work. (a) Frequency: I have moderated two (admittedly not very active) lists for about 6 months. This is the first such request I have received. YMMV. (b) Level of effort: This user provided a direct link to the archived message. It took me one click to get there, maybe 10 seconds to confirm that this was the information in question, one click to delete it, and a third click to close the browser. This might be harder under ezmlm, but that's something for ezmlm moderators to take up with Infra. (4) The user should have known better. True, but don't be snide. Interestingly enough, despite my rant, my action (I have deleted the post) seems to fall within policy! /tj/ ... Why aren't they being brought to the list (either details, or at least an overview of what this work is about)? Because the person wanting the removal, I presume, did not know about the new changes. I have no problem explaining things--have--but I'm simply laying out the facts. The point is that you are not a contact point for the AOO project, this list is. If you, as a single individual, choose to act on requests like these and others that you frequently claim are coming your way you will quickly run out of time or you will fail to address the requests. Please share everything here (or on the private lists if absolutely necessary). Personally I would rather see you spending time addressing the issue with SPI funds since you are the named individual dealing with the SPI (or alternatively indicating that you do not intend to do so, thereby making way for someone else to do it). Ross
Re: Proposal to close the Vietnamese Language User Forum
Hi Drew, On 31 January 2012 00:34, drew d...@baseanswers.com wrote: Hi, I was poked by one of the folks on the forums today with regards to the Vietnamese Language site. The site has been left without any native language supporters for quite a while and is once again sprouting a nice growth of SPAM, with no real usage by end users, at least not that I an see. I would like to propose the following - barring any strong objections of couse: In the morning I'll start cleaning up the spam. On Feb 2nd will take the following steps: - Post a global announcement on the forum directly future requests for help to the English language forum. - Disable the ability to register new accounts. - Lock all lists on the forum. This will effectively close the forum. / The same proposal was posted to the Forum Governance board on the English form a few minutes ago. Best wishes, Drew Jensen Have you or anyone you know contacted the former VT group? I tried a while ago (early last year) and was informed that most of the community were now in LO's fold. But that was then. -louis
Re: Proposal to close the Vietnamese Language User Forum
Hi, On 31 January 2012 00:54, drew d...@baseanswers.com wrote: On Tue, 2012-01-31 at 00:38 -0500, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote: Hi Drew, On 31 January 2012 00:34, drew d...@baseanswers.com wrote: Hi, I was poked by one of the folks on the forums today with regards to the Vietnamese Language site. The site has been left without any native language supporters for quite a while and is once again sprouting a nice growth of SPAM, with no real usage by end users, at least not that I an see. I would like to propose the following - barring any strong objections of couse: In the morning I'll start cleaning up the spam. On Feb 2nd will take the following steps: - Post a global announcement on the forum directly future requests for help to the English language forum. - Disable the ability to register new accounts. - Lock all lists on the forum. This will effectively close the forum. / The same proposal was posted to the Forum Governance board on the English form a few minutes ago. Best wishes, Drew Jensen Have you or anyone you know contacted the former VT group? I tried a while ago (early last year) and was informed that most of the community were now in LO's fold. But that was then. Yes more then once with no response. Honestly though, the 3rd party libO forum with a VI section really isn't taking off either, nor is the mailing list traffic for that matter. Hope springs eternal however and is why I propose locking it for now, rather then just taking it down, at least for a while longer. Agree. I'd also like to reach out again to VT. The reason why V. and others gave for LO was that they had more positive response there than with Oracle's OOo. What a surprise. But as the new world is a gooder world, and in this nascent place there is no end of future, Why not? Ciao Louis -louis
Re: Proposal to close the Vietnamese Language User Forum
On 31 January 2012 13:26, drew d...@baseanswers.com wrote: On Tue, 2012-01-31 at 01:07 -0500, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote: Hi, On 31 January 2012 00:54, drew d...@baseanswers.com wrote: On Tue, 2012-01-31 at 00:38 -0500, Louis Suárez-Potts wrote: Hi Drew, On 31 January 2012 00:34, drew d...@baseanswers.com wrote: Hi, I was poked by one of the folks on the forums today with regards to the Vietnamese Language site. The site has been left without any native language supporters for quite a while and is once again sprouting a nice growth of SPAM, with no real usage by end users, at least not that I an see. I would like to propose the following - barring any strong objections of couse: In the morning I'll start cleaning up the spam. On Feb 2nd will take the following steps: - Post a global announcement on the forum directly future requests for help to the English language forum. - Disable the ability to register new accounts. - Lock all lists on the forum. This will effectively close the forum. / The same proposal was posted to the Forum Governance board on the English form a few minutes ago. Best wishes, Drew Jensen Have you or anyone you know contacted the former VT group? I tried a while ago (early last year) and was informed that most of the community were now in LO's fold. But that was then. Yes more then once with no response. Honestly though, the 3rd party libO forum with a VI section really isn't taking off either, nor is the mailing list traffic for that matter. Hope springs eternal however and is why I propose locking it for now, rather then just taking it down, at least for a while longer. Agree. I'd also like to reach out again to VT. The reason why V. and others gave for LO was that they had more positive response there than with Oracle's OOo. What a surprise. But as the new world is a gooder world, and in this nascent place there is no end of future, Why not? Ciao Hi Louis, et all That's great if you want to try and reach out again. quick notes: 1 - no one should construe that this has anything at all to do with Oracle or ASF or LibreOffice - the issues are long standing. 2 - Floris V (AKA Peter) jumped in this morning and cleaned the site up - much appreciated. I'll be drafting the shutdown notice for display at the site tonight and passing it along for review to the folks on the Admin board at the forums. If there is anyone that could handle a translation of that from English to Vietnamese it would be appreciated, if not will just go with the English version. Thanks again, //drew double plus agreed. Louis
