[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Lum Gim Fong]

Oops Tektro R539 brakes.
And forgot to mention Selle Anatomica X2 saddle on a Kalloy rivstock seatpost.

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Lum Gim Fong]

Guess I should chime in now that I own one.
This build minus saddle bag, minus the chainstay bartape wrap, plus a 
Secula plus seatstay dyno light is 22.9lbs.: https://flic.kr/p/2abdqa7

In comparison, my Carbon/Aluminum 2009 Defy 3 was 20lbs, iirc without 
pedals.

So not sub 20lbs. But looks like it could easily be with lighter components 
on it.
But  I like the functionality and how everything work great together on 
this bike the way it is.

Build:
Nitto M151F bar
Lizar skins blue wrap
Tech Deluxe stem
Tejtro TRP RLL drillium brake levers
Tektro R559 brakes with Swissstop blue pads
Yokozuna shifter and brake cables/housings
SUN XCD DT shifter clamp
Right Silver shifter
NO front derailer.
Microshift rear R10 derailer
SRAM PC8something chain
Shimano HG-something 8-speed 11-32 cassette
Sugino XD2 double crank 34/43 chainrings.
Front wheel - SON widebody/Sapim spokes/Pacenti Brevet rim 32 hole
Rear wheel - VO Touring hub/Sapim spokes/Pacenti rim 32 hole
GB Cypress tires
Qtubes
B IQX dyno head light
Secula Plus for seatstay rear light

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Virgil Staphbeard]

Ha I'm glad I read the last paragraph because I was going to comment on the 
lack of bolt on the seat stay bridge. You may want to use beeswax or some 
mild loctite on the set screw. I used set screws on some unused bottle cage 
bolts in the past and one worked its way into the seat tube. Luckily it was 
easy to get out, but the seat stay bridge could be another story. 

On Saturday, April 14, 2018 at 3:29:41 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Thank you for the kind words to all who approve of my new Legolas, and 
> thank you for the discretion to all those who disapprove.  This build 
> started as a conceptual Rivendell Custom, but in my conversations with Mark 
> and Grant, this is where that ended up.  My intent was to build my favorite 
> Rivendell, and I'm very pleased with how it turned out.  My build is 
> complete now.  I added black Newbaums with two coats of shellac and a 
> carbon water bottle cage.  I swapped out the silver steel water bottle 
> bolts for black alloy ones.  The total weight is 19.4 pounds and ready to 
> roll.  I might have to wait until Monday to actually take it on a proper 
> ride, since I'm prepping for another race-day tomorrow.  
>
>
> 
>
>
> 
>
>
> 
>
>
> 
>
>
> 
>
>
> 
> Now my stable is packed to bursting.  I have a lot more bikes than a 
> normal person needs, but every bike has its purpose and place in my life, 
> and I don't think there are any that I'm planning on actively ignoring or 
> passing over.  Nobody asked, but in case you are curious, there is a 
> downtube cable housing stop for a front derailer, so I have a 2x drivetrain 
> option for the future if I decide I want more gears and more range.  The 
> tiny build detail that is on my bike that I've never seen before was a 
> special touch Mark performed when prepping the frame for me.  I have fender 
> attachment points at the seatstay and chainstay bridges (normal).  You want 
> to plug those holes with bolts so mud and rain don't get in there and rust 
> outward (normal).  Mark installed tiny M5x0.8mm stainless grub screws, 
> instead of water bottle bolts.  In the last photo you can see my seatstay 
> bridge and you can see where the fender will attach, but you can't see the 
> tiny grub screw plugging the hole.  It's SUPER clean, and an incredibly 
> nice touch.  I'm going to go buy some of those grub screws for that 
> application on my future builds.  Thanks Mark!  
>
> Again, the color is called "amethyst smoke" which reminded me of Mel 
> Torme's nickname "The Velvet Fog".  I might call my bike "Mel Torme".  I 
> also thought about calling him "Sal", short for Salogel, (Legolas 
> backwards).  That name occurred to me because Rivendell can't promote any 
> LotR named bikes, but they already have the Legolas artwork.  They should 
> mirror image the Legolas artwork and do a run of Salogel cyclocross race 
> bikes for us to buy. 
>  
> Happy Spring
>
> Bill amethyst-smoke Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, April 13, 2018 at 11:23:36 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> That is a fact.  Dremel is a weight savings tool.  I did cut off the 
>> seatpost to 2.5" of sunk depth and that saved me 22g.  I celebrated the 52g 
>> of chain I got to cut off, thanks to my 1x drivetrain and SHORT 
>> chainstays.  The steertube weight reduction was 49g.  
>>
>> Maybe I'll do some skids to lighten up the tires.  :)
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> On Friday, April 13, 2018 at 11:19:15 AM UTC-7, Jim M. wrote:
>>>
>>> Great looking Legolas! But you could shave off a little more weight if 
>>> you did like P Moore and Dremel'ed off the rack eyelets.
>>>
>>> jim m
>>> walnut creek, ca
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, April 13, 2018 at 11:11:52 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:


 On January 30th I asserted that it should be straightforward to build a 
 sub-20 pound, off-road ready Legolas.  Here it is:


 

 It's confirmed at 19.3lb, saddle and pedals included.  All it needs is 
 handlebar tape and a water bottle cage.  


 Bill Lindsay 

 El Cerrito, CA


 On 

[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[RichS]

Bill, your Legolas is so classy and elegant with the amethyst smoke paint 
and black parts. I'm sure Mel Torme would approve.

Best,
Richard

On Saturday, April 14, 2018 at 3:29:41 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Thank you for the kind words to all who approve of my new Legolas, and 
> thank you for the discretion to all those who disapprove.  This build 
> started as a conceptual Rivendell Custom, but in my conversations with Mark 
> and Grant, this is where that ended up.  My intent was to build my favorite 
> Rivendell, and I'm very pleased with how it turned out.  My build is 
> complete now.  I added black Newbaums with two coats of shellac and a 
> carbon water bottle cage.  I swapped out the silver steel water bottle 
> bolts for black alloy ones.  The total weight is 19.4 pounds and ready to 
> roll.  I might have to wait until Monday to actually take it on a proper 
> ride, since I'm prepping for another race-day tomorrow.  
>
>
> 
>
>
> 
>
>
> 
>
>
> 
>
>
> 
>
>
> 
> Now my stable is packed to bursting.  I have a lot more bikes than a 
> normal person needs, but every bike has its purpose and place in my life, 
> and I don't think there are any that I'm planning on actively ignoring or 
> passing over.  Nobody asked, but in case you are curious, there is a 
> downtube cable housing stop for a front derailer, so I have a 2x drivetrain 
> option for the future if I decide I want more gears and more range.  The 
> tiny build detail that is on my bike that I've never seen before was a 
> special touch Mark performed when prepping the frame for me.  I have fender 
> attachment points at the seatstay and chainstay bridges (normal).  You want 
> to plug those holes with bolts so mud and rain don't get in there and rust 
> outward (normal).  Mark installed tiny M5x0.8mm stainless grub screws, 
> instead of water bottle bolts.  In the last photo you can see my seatstay 
> bridge and you can see where the fender will attach, but you can't see the 
> tiny grub screw plugging the hole.  It's SUPER clean, and an incredibly 
> nice touch.  I'm going to go buy some of those grub screws for that 
> application on my future builds.  Thanks Mark!  
>
> Again, the color is called "amethyst smoke" which reminded me of Mel 
> Torme's nickname "The Velvet Fog".  I might call my bike "Mel Torme".  I 
> also thought about calling him "Sal", short for Salogel, (Legolas 
> backwards).  That name occurred to me because Rivendell can't promote any 
> LotR named bikes, but they already have the Legolas artwork.  They should 
> mirror image the Legolas artwork and do a run of Salogel cyclocross race 
> bikes for us to buy. 
>  
> Happy Spring
>
> Bill amethyst-smoke Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, April 13, 2018 at 11:23:36 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> That is a fact.  Dremel is a weight savings tool.  I did cut off the 
>> seatpost to 2.5" of sunk depth and that saved me 22g.  I celebrated the 52g 
>> of chain I got to cut off, thanks to my 1x drivetrain and SHORT 
>> chainstays.  The steertube weight reduction was 49g.  
>>
>> Maybe I'll do some skids to lighten up the tires.  :)
>>
>> Bill
>>
>> On Friday, April 13, 2018 at 11:19:15 AM UTC-7, Jim M. wrote:
>>>
>>> Great looking Legolas! But you could shave off a little more weight if 
>>> you did like P Moore and Dremel'ed off the rack eyelets.
>>>
>>> jim m
>>> walnut creek, ca
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, April 13, 2018 at 11:11:52 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:


 On January 30th I asserted that it should be straightforward to build a 
 sub-20 pound, off-road ready Legolas.  Here it is:


 

 It's confirmed at 19.3lb, saddle and pedals included.  All it needs is 
 handlebar tape and a water bottle cage.  


 Bill Lindsay 

 El Cerrito, CA


 On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 7:15:15 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> RJM is right that anybody endeavoring to build the lightest possible 
> bike won’t choose a steel frame. That said, there are still plenty of 
> 

[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Bill Lindsay]

Thank you for the kind words to all who approve of my new Legolas, and 
thank you for the discretion to all those who disapprove.  This build 
started as a conceptual Rivendell Custom, but in my conversations with Mark 
and Grant, this is where that ended up.  My intent was to build my favorite 
Rivendell, and I'm very pleased with how it turned out.  My build is 
complete now.  I added black Newbaums with two coats of shellac and a 
carbon water bottle cage.  I swapped out the silver steel water bottle 
bolts for black alloy ones.  The total weight is 19.4 pounds and ready to 
roll.  I might have to wait until Monday to actually take it on a proper 
ride, since I'm prepping for another race-day tomorrow.  












Now my stable is packed to bursting.  I have a lot more bikes than a normal 
person needs, but every bike has its purpose and place in my life, and I 
don't think there are any that I'm planning on actively ignoring or passing 
over.  Nobody asked, but in case you are curious, there is a downtube cable 
housing stop for a front derailer, so I have a 2x drivetrain option for the 
future if I decide I want more gears and more range.  The tiny build detail 
that is on my bike that I've never seen before was a special touch Mark 
performed when prepping the frame for me.  I have fender attachment points 
at the seatstay and chainstay bridges (normal).  You want to plug those 
holes with bolts so mud and rain don't get in there and rust outward 
(normal).  Mark installed tiny M5x0.8mm stainless grub screws, instead of 
water bottle bolts.  In the last photo you can see my seatstay bridge and 
you can see where the fender will attach, but you can't see the tiny grub 
screw plugging the hole.  It's SUPER clean, and an incredibly nice touch.  
I'm going to go buy some of those grub screws for that application on my 
future builds.  Thanks Mark!  

Again, the color is called "amethyst smoke" which reminded me of Mel 
Torme's nickname "The Velvet Fog".  I might call my bike "Mel Torme".  I 
also thought about calling him "Sal", short for Salogel, (Legolas 
backwards).  That name occurred to me because Rivendell can't promote any 
LotR named bikes, but they already have the Legolas artwork.  They should 
mirror image the Legolas artwork and do a run of Salogel cyclocross race 
bikes for us to buy. 
 
Happy Spring

Bill amethyst-smoke Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA





On Friday, April 13, 2018 at 11:23:36 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> That is a fact.  Dremel is a weight savings tool.  I did cut off the 
> seatpost to 2.5" of sunk depth and that saved me 22g.  I celebrated the 52g 
> of chain I got to cut off, thanks to my 1x drivetrain and SHORT 
> chainstays.  The steertube weight reduction was 49g.  
>
> Maybe I'll do some skids to lighten up the tires.  :)
>
> Bill
>
> On Friday, April 13, 2018 at 11:19:15 AM UTC-7, Jim M. wrote:
>>
>> Great looking Legolas! But you could shave off a little more weight if 
>> you did like P Moore and Dremel'ed off the rack eyelets.
>>
>> jim m
>> walnut creek, ca
>>
>>
>> On Friday, April 13, 2018 at 11:11:52 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On January 30th I asserted that it should be straightforward to build a 
>>> sub-20 pound, off-road ready Legolas.  Here it is:
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> It's confirmed at 19.3lb, saddle and pedals included.  All it needs is 
>>> handlebar tape and a water bottle cage.  
>>>
>>>
>>> Bill Lindsay 
>>>
>>> El Cerrito, CA
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 7:15:15 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:

 RJM is right that anybody endeavoring to build the lightest possible 
 bike won’t choose a steel frame. That said, there are still plenty of 
 people who want a steel frame AND want it to weigh under 20 pounds.   

 A sub 20 pound off-road ready Legolas should be straightforward. A sub 
 19 pound Roadeo with nothing dumb on it should also be straightforward. 
 You 
 just need to decide to do it, or not. Rackless, fenderless and lightless 
 makes it much easier. 

 

Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Toshi Takeuchi]

Thanks Tom,

I think that was the cherry red from the Waterford list.  I was expecting
it to be darker, but I like the way it turned out.

I'm sure the Riv folks would be happy to look up my order for the color if
you are interested in getting one too!

--Patrick, I use Kojaks in the winter to have a little more flat resistance
and Grand Bois Cypres otherwise.

I definitely like the GB ride quality better.

Toshi


On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 4:26 PM tc  wrote:

> Toshi, what a great shade of red!  I was thinking of red for my next build
> - care to share what the name/code of that red is?
>
> I also recall  a nice red on one of the garage sale Roscos last year, but
> they took it down before I could save the pic and inquire about that
> shade.  But I like your shade of red better :)
>
>
> Tom
>
>
> On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 12:37:11 AM UTC-5, ttoshi wrote:
>
>> I weighed my Roadeo out of curiosity and it is 22 lbs as shown in this
>> picture, but without the wrap under the saddle.  I suppose if you used a
>> double crank and got a lighter seat, it might be close to 20 lbs, but that
>> was not my goal for this bike.  I like using the Roadeo for long rides with
>> fair weather--riding 200 miles or under, so comfort and low gearing is more
>> important than weight to me.
>>
>> Toshi
>>
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/42771204@N00/8443093499/in/album-72157632686324800/
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
>>
>
>>>
>>> On 02/02/2018 04:51 PM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:
>>>
>>> This is just too funny. I guess most of us have violated the leave well
>>> enough alone rule now and again, but ha! This takes the cake. Poor little
>>> systems engineer. Was it his very last bike event ever?
>>>
>>>
>>> I think not.  But I do believe he learned a lesson about leaving well
>>> enough alone.   He did get it all reassembled eventually, and the event was
>>> laid out so that the full 80 mile distance was made up of several 20-ish
>>> and 30-ish loops all originating from the central starting point, so he did
>>> get 40 or 50 in and had a good time riding.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 1:52:27 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:


 One time I talked a guy from work, a systems engineer, into joining me
 at the Mathews County "Tour de Chesapeake."  This was his very first ever
 bike event.  The night before, he decided to completely take his rear
 derailleur apart in the hotel room, including removing the pulleys.  In the
 process, he lost some parts, took him half the night to find where they
 ended up.  So as everyone else is taking off on the ride next morning,
 there he is trying to reassemble a rear derailleur with his bike laid out
 on the grass in front of the school.


 Steve Palincsar
>>> Alexandria, Virginia
>>> USA
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Patrick Moore]

Yeah!

On Fri, Apr 13, 2018 at 12:19 PM, Jim M.  wrote:

> Great looking Legolas! But you could shave off a little more weight if you
> did like P Moore and Dremel'ed off the rack eyelets.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Bill Lindsay]

That is a fact.  Dremel is a weight savings tool.  I did cut off the 
seatpost to 2.5" of sunk depth and that saved me 22g.  I celebrated the 52g 
of chain I got to cut off, thanks to my 1x drivetrain and SHORT 
chainstays.  The steertube weight reduction was 49g.  

Maybe I'll do some skids to lighten up the tires.  :)

Bill

On Friday, April 13, 2018 at 11:19:15 AM UTC-7, Jim M. wrote:
>
> Great looking Legolas! But you could shave off a little more weight if you 
> did like P Moore and Dremel'ed off the rack eyelets.
>
> jim m
> walnut creek, ca
>
>
> On Friday, April 13, 2018 at 11:11:52 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>>
>> On January 30th I asserted that it should be straightforward to build a 
>> sub-20 pound, off-road ready Legolas.  Here it is:
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> It's confirmed at 19.3lb, saddle and pedals included.  All it needs is 
>> handlebar tape and a water bottle cage.  
>>
>>
>> Bill Lindsay 
>>
>> El Cerrito, CA
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 7:15:15 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>>
>>> RJM is right that anybody endeavoring to build the lightest possible 
>>> bike won’t choose a steel frame. That said, there are still plenty of 
>>> people who want a steel frame AND want it to weigh under 20 pounds.   
>>>
>>> A sub 20 pound off-road ready Legolas should be straightforward. A sub 
>>> 19 pound Roadeo with nothing dumb on it should also be straightforward. You 
>>> just need to decide to do it, or not. Rackless, fenderless and lightless 
>>> makes it much easier. 
>>>
>>> Contemplating your 26 pound road bike and wishing it was <20 pounds is a 
>>> little more complicated and costly:   
>>>
>>> Take it completely apart 
>>> Weigh every single thing 
>>> Make sure the sum of the weights makes sense 
>>> Eliminate stuff and replace parts with lighter choices until the sum is 
>>> where you want it to be 
>>> Put it back together 
>>>
>>> Bill Lindsay 
>>> El Cerrito Ca
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Jim M.]

Great looking Legolas! But you could shave off a little more weight if you 
did like P Moore and Dremel'ed off the rack eyelets.

jim m
walnut creek, ca


On Friday, April 13, 2018 at 11:11:52 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
>
> On January 30th I asserted that it should be straightforward to build a 
> sub-20 pound, off-road ready Legolas.  Here it is:
>
>
> 
>
> It's confirmed at 19.3lb, saddle and pedals included.  All it needs is 
> handlebar tape and a water bottle cage.  
>
>
> Bill Lindsay 
>
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>
> On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 7:15:15 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> RJM is right that anybody endeavoring to build the lightest possible bike 
>> won’t choose a steel frame. That said, there are still plenty of people who 
>> want a steel frame AND want it to weigh under 20 pounds.   
>>
>> A sub 20 pound off-road ready Legolas should be straightforward. A sub 19 
>> pound Roadeo with nothing dumb on it should also be straightforward. You 
>> just need to decide to do it, or not. Rackless, fenderless and lightless 
>> makes it much easier. 
>>
>> Contemplating your 26 pound road bike and wishing it was <20 pounds is a 
>> little more complicated and costly:   
>>
>> Take it completely apart 
>> Weigh every single thing 
>> Make sure the sum of the weights makes sense 
>> Eliminate stuff and replace parts with lighter choices until the sum is 
>> where you want it to be 
>> Put it back together 
>>
>> Bill Lindsay 
>> El Cerrito Ca
>
>

-- 
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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Bill Lindsay]

On January 30th I asserted that it should be straightforward to build a 
sub-20 pound, off-road ready Legolas.  Here it is:



It's confirmed at 19.3lb, saddle and pedals included.  All it needs is 
handlebar tape and a water bottle cage.  


Bill Lindsay 

El Cerrito, CA


On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 7:15:15 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> RJM is right that anybody endeavoring to build the lightest possible bike 
> won’t choose a steel frame. That said, there are still plenty of people who 
> want a steel frame AND want it to weigh under 20 pounds.   
>
> A sub 20 pound off-road ready Legolas should be straightforward. A sub 19 
> pound Roadeo with nothing dumb on it should also be straightforward. You 
> just need to decide to do it, or not. Rackless, fenderless and lightless 
> makes it much easier. 
>
> Contemplating your 26 pound road bike and wishing it was <20 pounds is a 
> little more complicated and costly:   
>
> Take it completely apart 
> Weigh every single thing 
> Make sure the sum of the weights makes sense 
> Eliminate stuff and replace parts with lighter choices until the sum is 
> where you want it to be 
> Put it back together 
>
> Bill Lindsay 
> El Cerrito Ca

-- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Patrick Moore]

Toshi: A bit late to the party, but very nice Roadeo.

How do you like the Kojaks? And why Kojaks rather than a Compass tire? I've
used Kojaks on 3 bikes, and for a "non-premium" tire that resists thorns,
they're pretty good indeed. But I'd think you'd want a premium tire for
such a nice bike.


> On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 12:37:11 AM UTC-5, ttoshi wrote:
>>
>> I weighed my Roadeo out of curiosity and it is 22 lbs as shown in this
>> picture, but without the wrap under the saddle.  I suppose if you used a
>> double crank and got a lighter seat, it might be close to 20 lbs, but that
>> was not my goal for this bike.  I like using the Roadeo for long rides with
>> fair weather--riding 200 miles or under, so comfort and low gearing is more
>> important than weight to me.
>>
>> Toshi
>>
>> https://www.flickr.com/photos/42771204@N00/8443093499/in/alb
>> um-72157632686324800/
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[tc]

Toshi, what a great shade of red!  I was thinking of red for my next build 
- care to share what the name/code of that red is?

I also recall  a nice red on one of the garage sale Roscos last year, but 
they took it down before I could save the pic and inquire about that 
shade.  But I like your shade of red better :)


Tom

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 12:37:11 AM UTC-5, ttoshi wrote:
>
> I weighed my Roadeo out of curiosity and it is 22 lbs as shown in this 
> picture, but without the wrap under the saddle.  I suppose if you used a 
> double crank and got a lighter seat, it might be close to 20 lbs, but that 
> was not my goal for this bike.  I like using the Roadeo for long rides with 
> fair weather--riding 200 miles or under, so comfort and low gearing is more 
> important than weight to me.
>
> Toshi
>
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/42771204@N00/8443093499/in/album-72157632686324800/
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Steve Palincsar  > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 02/02/2018 04:51 PM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:
>>
>> This is just too funny. I guess most of us have violated the leave well 
>> enough alone rule now and again, but ha! This takes the cake. Poor little 
>> systems engineer. Was it his very last bike event ever?
>>
>>
>> I think not.  But I do believe he learned a lesson about leaving well 
>> enough alone.   He did get it all reassembled eventually, and the event was 
>> laid out so that the full 80 mile distance was made up of several 20-ish 
>> and 30-ish loops all originating from the central starting point, so he did 
>> get 40 or 50 in and had a good time riding.
>>
>>
>> On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 1:52:27 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote: 
>>>
>>>
>>> One time I talked a guy from work, a systems engineer, into joining me 
>>> at the Mathews County "Tour de Chesapeake."  This was his very first ever 
>>> bike event.  The night before, he decided to completely take his rear 
>>> derailleur apart in the hotel room, including removing the pulleys.  In the 
>>> process, he lost some parts, took him half the night to find where they 
>>> ended up.  So as everyone else is taking off on the ride next morning, 
>>> there he is trying to reassemble a rear derailleur with his bike laid out 
>>> on the grass in front of the school.
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve Palincsar
>> Alexandria, Virginia 
>> USA
>>
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>
>

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

Thanks Bill. Appreciate the response.

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Bill Lindsay]

Jay in Tel Aviv asked me to recommend wheels for his Roadini

I still think the HED Ardennes are still nice wheels for the price.  The 
price today is $700, but I don't know of another $700 wheelset that I would 
prefer.  It's a bummer you didn't jump on them when they were $350, but 
they are still good wheels, in my opinion.  You have to jump at deals when 
you see them, if you want to get deals. 

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito CA

On Friday, March 9, 2018 at 12:37:15 AM UTC-8, Jay in Tel Aviv wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> Your recommended $349 "not-dumb" wheels seems to be discontinued at 
> Jenson. 
> What would you get today for a hopefully not dumb Roadini?
>
> Thanks,
> Jay
>
> On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 6:02:58 AM UTC+2, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>>
>> Ted
>>
>> I'm not sure what the point is, exactly.  Are you trying to test me on 
>> all possible bike parts, looking for me to say some part is 'not dumb', so 
>> you can say "gotcha! that part IS dumb!" ?  Do you sincerely want me to 
>> design your build list for you because you want to build a 19 pound Roadeo 
>> and don't know how to do it?  Do you suspect I'm wrong and you want to 
>> prove that I can't build a 19 pound Roadeo?  Or are we just killing time 
>> because it's Winter?  
>>
>> Whatever it is, you are right that I have better things to do than to 
>> design a proper and complete build list in the way I normally approach 
>> builds.  I approach builds with a lot of forethought and deliberation, and 
>> I've gotten pretty good at it.  I'm not going to design a Roadeo build for 
>> you, but I'll give you something in the ballpark.  
>>
>> My 59cm Black Mountain Cycles Road bike weighs 20.2 lbs (9171g) as 
>> pictured:
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>> I categorize everything in five buckets:
>>
>> A. Frameset (59cm BMC Road + Cane Creek 50 headset)
>> B. Wheelset (HED rims, 32 spokes, White Industries hubs, Challenge Eroica 
>> tires, SRAM 1070 cassette, standard tubes) 
>> C. Drivetrain (Herse Cranks, White Industries Ti BB, Shimano SPD pedals, 
>> Dura Ace 10 F+R ders, Dura Ace downtube shifters, SRAM 1091 chain)
>> D. Components (Flite saddle, ultegra seatpost, Nitto Soba handlebars, 
>> Civia Bryant stem, Shimano mid reach brakes, customized tektro brakelevers, 
>> newbaums tape)
>> E. Accessories (bell, two ti cages)
>>
>> A 19 pound Roadeo needs to be 545 grams lighter.  I assume the Roadeo 
>> frameset is a hair lighter than my $600 Black Mountain frameset, but I 
>> don't know for sure.  Assume they are the same.  I would save some weight 
>> by running a not-dumb all-metal wheelset.  I think carbon wheels are dumb.  
>> Carbon sucks as a braking surface, and carbon clinchers with a metal 
>> braking surface are neither light nor affordable.  My current favorite 
>> not-dumb wheelset is the HED Ardennes Plus.  Its a 1610g wheelset, with 
>> 25mm wide tubeless ready metal rims.  Everybody smarts regards those rims 
>> as bomber, and Jenson sells the wheelset for $349.  not-dumb-wheels 
>>   That 
>> would drop about 150 grams.  I'd run Chinook Pass EL tires and light tubes, 
>> which would drop another 150 grams.  The 220 gram Flite saddle works for 
>> me, but the 145 gram also works for me.  A Dura Ace cassette which is 
>> half-ti costs $189 but it saves another 75 grams or so.  Don't run a bell, 
>> and a nice steel threadless stem would weigh about 70 grams less than the 
>> one I have.  That puts me right at 19 pounds with nothing dumb.  I think 
>> that maybe VO Gran Cru brake calipers might be a little lighter than the 
>> Shimanos, but whatever.  There are plenty of lighter 'road' pedals, but 
>> whatever.  My customized brakelevers might seem dumb.  I customized them to 
>> improve the shape and for the fun of the look, but it also reduced the 
>> weight to just under 100g per lever.  SRAM carbon levers weigh more like 
>> 125 grams per lever, and I could go find 50 grams somewhere else.  If the 
>> $2400 Roadeo is in fact a few grams lighter than the $595 Black Mountain, 
>> then I'd be ahead of the game.  
>>
>> Bill Lindsay
>> El Cerrito, CA
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 4:01:56 PM UTC-8, ted wrote:
>>>
>>> Bill,
>>> You seem to ask what I was asking.
>>> I am wondering what you think is dumb when it comes to building a light 
>>> Roadeo. I.e. what choices could you make that would make it lighter that 
>>> you would chose not to make because you think it would be dumb.
>>> I would also be interested if you would suggest a build list that 
>>> results in a sub 19lb Roadeo, but that seems like a bit much to ask. I 
>>> expect you've got better things to do.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Ted
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Belopsky]

I've decided to go bar-end on my Gunnar (snow and cold makes Igor work and 
not ride bikes..) so I will be swapping bars and maybe stem and etc..

Without pedals, bars (but stem), shifters, cables my Gunnar weighs 19.8lbs 
= 8981.13grams
Each tire (Maxxis Rambler 700x40) is said to weigh 400g so not that light 
at all. If I go down to 35mm like the Bon Jon then that brings me down 
to 8,797.13grams which is a good savings but regardless I don't know if I 
could get this bike down to 21lbs or less?

I don't know what my Shimano RX100 levers weigh, or what the bar-ends and 
cables would add, but bars are around 300g (I have a 31.8mm stem and 
regular reach 31.8 are hard to find?) So anywho, that brings 9097.13g so a 
tad over 20 without levers, shifters, cables and pedals, but sounds do-able?

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

Bill,

Your recommended $349 "not-dumb" wheels seems to be discontinued at Jenson. 
What would you get today for a hopefully not dumb Roadini?

Thanks,
Jay

On Thursday, February 1, 2018 at 6:02:58 AM UTC+2, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
>
> Ted
>
> I'm not sure what the point is, exactly.  Are you trying to test me on all 
> possible bike parts, looking for me to say some part is 'not dumb', so you 
> can say "gotcha! that part IS dumb!" ?  Do you sincerely want me to design 
> your build list for you because you want to build a 19 pound Roadeo and 
> don't know how to do it?  Do you suspect I'm wrong and you want to prove 
> that I can't build a 19 pound Roadeo?  Or are we just killing time because 
> it's Winter?  
>
> Whatever it is, you are right that I have better things to do than to 
> design a proper and complete build list in the way I normally approach 
> builds.  I approach builds with a lot of forethought and deliberation, and 
> I've gotten pretty good at it.  I'm not going to design a Roadeo build for 
> you, but I'll give you something in the ballpark.  
>
> My 59cm Black Mountain Cycles Road bike weighs 20.2 lbs (9171g) as 
> pictured:
>
>
> 
>
>
> I categorize everything in five buckets:
>
> A. Frameset (59cm BMC Road + Cane Creek 50 headset)
> B. Wheelset (HED rims, 32 spokes, White Industries hubs, Challenge Eroica 
> tires, SRAM 1070 cassette, standard tubes) 
> C. Drivetrain (Herse Cranks, White Industries Ti BB, Shimano SPD pedals, 
> Dura Ace 10 F+R ders, Dura Ace downtube shifters, SRAM 1091 chain)
> D. Components (Flite saddle, ultegra seatpost, Nitto Soba handlebars, 
> Civia Bryant stem, Shimano mid reach brakes, customized tektro brakelevers, 
> newbaums tape)
> E. Accessories (bell, two ti cages)
>
> A 19 pound Roadeo needs to be 545 grams lighter.  I assume the Roadeo 
> frameset is a hair lighter than my $600 Black Mountain frameset, but I 
> don't know for sure.  Assume they are the same.  I would save some weight 
> by running a not-dumb all-metal wheelset.  I think carbon wheels are dumb.  
> Carbon sucks as a braking surface, and carbon clinchers with a metal 
> braking surface are neither light nor affordable.  My current favorite 
> not-dumb wheelset is the HED Ardennes Plus.  Its a 1610g wheelset, with 
> 25mm wide tubeless ready metal rims.  Everybody smarts regards those rims 
> as bomber, and Jenson sells the wheelset for $349.  not-dumb-wheels 
>   That 
> would drop about 150 grams.  I'd run Chinook Pass EL tires and light tubes, 
> which would drop another 150 grams.  The 220 gram Flite saddle works for 
> me, but the 145 gram also works for me.  A Dura Ace cassette which is 
> half-ti costs $189 but it saves another 75 grams or so.  Don't run a bell, 
> and a nice steel threadless stem would weigh about 70 grams less than the 
> one I have.  That puts me right at 19 pounds with nothing dumb.  I think 
> that maybe VO Gran Cru brake calipers might be a little lighter than the 
> Shimanos, but whatever.  There are plenty of lighter 'road' pedals, but 
> whatever.  My customized brakelevers might seem dumb.  I customized them to 
> improve the shape and for the fun of the look, but it also reduced the 
> weight to just under 100g per lever.  SRAM carbon levers weigh more like 
> 125 grams per lever, and I could go find 50 grams somewhere else.  If the 
> $2400 Roadeo is in fact a few grams lighter than the $595 Black Mountain, 
> then I'd be ahead of the game.  
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 4:01:56 PM UTC-8, ted wrote:
>>
>> Bill,
>> You seem to ask what I was asking.
>> I am wondering what you think is dumb when it comes to building a light 
>> Roadeo. I.e. what choices could you make that would make it lighter that 
>> you would chose not to make because you think it would be dumb.
>> I would also be interested if you would suggest a build list that results 
>> in a sub 19lb Roadeo, but that seems like a bit much to ask. I expect 
>> you've got better things to do.
>>
>> Regards
>> Ted
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Brian Campbell]

Not sub  20 but currently 21 lbs.(without saddle bag and water bottles).



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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

*RBW Owners Bunch - Dedicated to the discussion of Rivendell Bicycles and 
products*

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 2:12:57 PM UTC-5, Davey Two Shoes wrote:
>
> I think the real problem here is the Roadeo is simply outclassed in it's 
> price bracket. You could easily get a custom geo steel road bike with a 
> carbon fork fork less. If the plan is a lightweight steel build I'd say 
> there are way better choices for your money.  
>
> If lugs are the the desire, why not get a vintage race bike?
>

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Brewster Fong]

I agree in part. A Roadeo is currently listed at $2600 for the frameset, 
although if you read the text, it is listed at $2250, so maybe the price 
increased.  However, they only have like a 63cm in stock and I'm not sure 
what their eta for new ones are.

So what else can you get for $2600?  Well the 2018 Trek Emonda SLR frameset 
price has actually gone down, I believe it is now made in Taiwan (Giant?) 
instead of Wisconsin, to about $3000:

https://www.trekbicyclesuperstore.com/product/trek-emonda-slr-frameset-305218-1.htm

However, there are other steel builders out there who are cheaper like 
Roland Della Santa who I believe charges between $2000-2500, but you get 
what he wants to build.

Anyways, Roadeo is a good choice for those who like it. Good Luck!

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 12:41:39 PM UTC-8, Ryan Merrill wrote:
>
> You could get a vintage race bike, but then you are buying a used bike 
> that may or may not be in your size, or your preferred color, and have 
> wacky wheel spacing, or take weird sized seat posts, ect. 
>
> My Roadeo never rode like a vintage race bike. It wasn't near as 
> twitchy...that's really the best way I can describe the difference that 
> I've felt. It's quite a nice riding bike but I felt like it was unlike 
> other race bikes I've ridden. 
>
> I consider the Roadeo a high end road bike frameset, and if you compare it 
> price wise against other high end road bike framesets it's price, even the 
> current price, isn't that far off. What's the price of a new Trek Emonda 
> SLR frameset go for nowadays?  
>
> but still, since I purchased my Roadeo frame, which I did wind up selling 
> because I don't road ride anymore, the price has gone up six hundred bucks. 
>
> On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 1:12:57 PM UTC-6, Davey Two Shoes wrote:
>
>> I think the real problem here is the Roadeo is simply outclassed in it's 
>> price bracket. You could easily get a custom geo steel road bike with a 
>> carbon fork fork less. If the plan is a lightweight steel build I'd say 
>> there are way better choices for your money.  
>>
>> If lugs are the the desire, why not get a vintage race bike?
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Ryan Merrill]

You could get a vintage race bike, but then you are buying a used bike that 
may or may not be in your size, or your preferred color, and have wacky 
wheel spacing, or take weird sized seat posts, ect. 

My Roadeo never rode like a vintage race bike. It wasn't near as 
twitchy...that's really the best way I can describe the difference that 
I've felt. It's quite a nice riding bike but I felt like it was unlike 
other race bikes I've ridden. 

I consider the Roadeo a high end road bike frameset, and if you compare it 
price wise against other high end road bike framesets it's price, even the 
current price, isn't that far off. What's the price of a new Trek Emonda 
SLR frameset go for nowadays?  

but still, since I purchased my Roadeo frame, which I did wind up selling 
because I don't road ride anymore, the price has gone up six hundred bucks. 

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 1:12:57 PM UTC-6, Davey Two Shoes wrote:

> I think the real problem here is the Roadeo is simply outclassed in it's 
> price bracket. You could easily get a custom geo steel road bike with a 
> carbon fork fork less. If the plan is a lightweight steel build I'd say 
> there are way better choices for your money.  
>
> If lugs are the the desire, why not get a vintage race bike?
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[JohnS]

Nice build Toshi! Love the red.

JohnS


On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 12:37:11 AM UTC-5, ttoshi wrote:
>
> I weighed my Roadeo out of curiosity and it is 22 lbs as shown in this 
> picture, but without the wrap under the saddle.  I suppose if you used a 
> double crank and got a lighter seat, it might be close to 20 lbs, but that 
> was not my goal for this bike.  I like using the Roadeo for long rides with 
> fair weather--riding 200 miles or under, so comfort and low gearing is more 
> important than weight to me.
>
> Toshi
>
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/42771204@N00/8443093499/in/album-72157632686324800/
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Steve Palincsar  > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On 02/02/2018 04:51 PM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:
>>
>> This is just too funny. I guess most of us have violated the leave well 
>> enough alone rule now and again, but ha! This takes the cake. Poor little 
>> systems engineer. Was it his very last bike event ever?
>>
>>
>> I think not.  But I do believe he learned a lesson about leaving well 
>> enough alone.   He did get it all reassembled eventually, and the event was 
>> laid out so that the full 80 mile distance was made up of several 20-ish 
>> and 30-ish loops all originating from the central starting point, so he did 
>> get 40 or 50 in and had a good time riding.
>>
>>
>> On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 1:52:27 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote: 
>>>
>>>
>>> One time I talked a guy from work, a systems engineer, into joining me 
>>> at the Mathews County "Tour de Chesapeake."  This was his very first ever 
>>> bike event.  The night before, he decided to completely take his rear 
>>> derailleur apart in the hotel room, including removing the pulleys.  In the 
>>> process, he lost some parts, took him half the night to find where they 
>>> ended up.  So as everyone else is taking off on the ride next morning, 
>>> there he is trying to reassemble a rear derailleur with his bike laid out 
>>> on the grass in front of the school.
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve Palincsar
>> Alexandria, Virginia 
>> USA
>>
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>>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I weighed my Roadeo out of curiosity and it is 22 lbs as shown in this
picture, but without the wrap under the saddle.  I suppose if you used a
double crank and got a lighter seat, it might be close to 20 lbs, but that
was not my goal for this bike.  I like using the Roadeo for long rides with
fair weather--riding 200 miles or under, so comfort and low gearing is more
important than weight to me.

Toshi

https://www.flickr.com/photos/42771204@N00/8443093499/in/album-72157632686324800/


On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

>
>
> On 02/02/2018 04:51 PM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:
>
> This is just too funny. I guess most of us have violated the leave well
> enough alone rule now and again, but ha! This takes the cake. Poor little
> systems engineer. Was it his very last bike event ever?
>
>
> I think not.  But I do believe he learned a lesson about leaving well
> enough alone.   He did get it all reassembled eventually, and the event was
> laid out so that the full 80 mile distance was made up of several 20-ish
> and 30-ish loops all originating from the central starting point, so he did
> get 40 or 50 in and had a good time riding.
>
>
> On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 1:52:27 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>>
>> One time I talked a guy from work, a systems engineer, into joining me at
>> the Mathews County "Tour de Chesapeake."  This was his very first ever bike
>> event.  The night before, he decided to completely take his rear derailleur
>> apart in the hotel room, including removing the pulleys.  In the process,
>> he lost some parts, took him half the night to find where they ended up.
>> So as everyone else is taking off on the ride next morning, there he is
>> trying to reassemble a rear derailleur with his bike laid out on the grass
>> in front of the school.
>>
>>
>> Steve Palincsar
> Alexandria, Virginia
> USA
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/02/2018 04:51 PM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:
This is just too funny. I guess most of us have violated the leave 
well enough alone rule now and again, but ha! This takes the cake. 
Poor little systems engineer. Was it his very last bike event ever?


I think not.  But I do believe he learned a lesson about leaving well 
enough alone.   He did get it all reassembled eventually, and the event 
was laid out so that the full 80 mile distance was made up of several 
20-ish and 30-ish loops all originating from the central starting point, 
so he did get 40 or 50 in and had a good time riding.




On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 1:52:27 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:


One time I talked a guy from work, a systems engineer, into
joining me at the Mathews County "Tour de Chesapeake."  This was
his very first ever bike event. The night before, he decided to
completely take his rear derailleur apart in the hotel room,
including removing the pulleys.  In the process, he lost some
parts, took him half the night to find where they ended up.  So as
everyone else is taking off on the ride next morning, there he is
trying to reassemble a rear derailleur with his bike laid out on
the grass in front of the school.



Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

This is just too funny. I guess most of us have violated the leave well 
enough alone rule now and again, but ha! This takes the cake. Poor little 
systems engineer. Was it his very last bike event ever?

On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 1:52:27 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
> One time I talked a guy from work, a systems engineer, into joining me at 
> the Mathews County "Tour de Chesapeake."  This was his very first ever bike 
> event.  The night before, he decided to completely take his rear derailleur 
> apart in the hotel room, including removing the pulleys.  In the process, 
> he lost some parts, took him half the night to find where they ended up.  
> So as everyone else is taking off on the ride next morning, there he is 
> trying to reassemble a rear derailleur with his bike laid out on the grass 
> in front of the school.
>
>
> -- 
> Steve Palincsar
> Alexandria, Virginia 
> USA
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Efficacy, especially as the end goal over others, is way over-rated, and 
generally comes at a price, albeit often not immediately apparent.

On Friday, February 2, 2018 at 3:35:28 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> I prefer the efficacy of the modern threadless system.
>
>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Patrick Moore]

Good luck indeed! I laughed at your description of the hapless and
mechanically clueless cyclist who decides, night before the tour, to mess
around with his headset. But with all the squeaky and chattering chains I
hear out on the bike path, coming from riders in full kit with carbon fiber
frames (not dissing kit or frames, just indicating that *these* indicate a
certain enthusiasm for the sport), I'm not surprised.

My own experience: I've made quite a few sub-8 minute headset bearing
adjustments and stem adjustments out on the road, with threadless systems,
and just the 4 mm allen. I must say that, while I prefer the look of a
Nitto Pearl (earlier, shinier model), I prefer the efficacy of the modern
threadless system.

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 11:13 AM, Brewster Fong  wrote:

> So let me get this straight. A guy is about to go on a four day tour and
> the night before he decides to "screw around" with the threadless headset.
> However, he has no idea what he's doing and then a couple of hours into the
> ride, the headset comes loose and he has no idea how to adjust it nor does
> he have a 5mm to fix it?!  Wow. I agree in that scenario, there is no
> advantage. I guess the advantage would be to a threaded headset as he would
> need two specific tools (32mm or 36mm) to adjust it.  In that case, the
> threaded headset would probably keep him from being tempted to "screw
> around" with the headset the night before a big ride.  Unbelievable
>
>>
>> So in my book, although there's unquestionably a theoretical advantage
>> there, in practice it's meaningless since nobody seems to know how to do it.
>>
>
> In your scenario, where no one knows how to work on a threadless headset,
> I agree! But adjusting a threadless headset really isn't that hard and a
> lot easier than a threaded headset.
>
> Of course, as you shown in your example, YMMV!
>
> Good Luck!
>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 02/02/2018 01:13 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:


So let me get this straight. A guy is about to go on a four day tour 
and the night before he decides to "screw around" with the threadless 
headset. However, he has no idea what he's doing and then a couple of 
hours into the ride, the headset comes loose and he has no idea how to 
adjust it nor does he have a 5mm to fix it?!  Wow. I agree in that 
scenario, there is no advantage. I guess the advantage would be to a 
threaded headset as he would need two specific tools (32mm or 36mm) to 
adjust it.  In that case, the threaded headset would probably keep him 
from being tempted to "screw around" with the headset the night before 
a big ride.  Unbelievable




What I said was: /"...threadless *in all but one case (and he was 
screwing around with the headset the night before,* didn't adjust it 
right and left the wrench in the car -- and this as we were about 2 hrs 
into a 4 day tour in South Dakota!)" //

/
No, a threaded headset, and I guess he wanted everything just so 
completely perfect, but got tired before he finished and maybe dozed off 
and forgot he hadn't tightened it down.  And he left the wrenches in the 
van, which we'd left at the B   In the area where we were, once you 
get outside Rapid City it's virtually all game preserves and little in 
the way of habitations, and certainly no place where you could find the 
wrenches needed to properly tighten a threaded headset.  Now you'd think 
that in itself would keep someone from messing around, but the urge to 
screw around with things the night before is hard to resist for some.


One time I talked a guy from work, a systems engineer, into joining me 
at the Mathews County "Tour de Chesapeake."  This was his very first 
ever bike event.  The night before, he decided to completely take his 
rear derailleur apart in the hotel room, including removing the 
pulleys.  In the process, he lost some parts, took him half the night to 
find where they ended up.  So as everyone else is taking off on the ride 
next morning, there he is trying to reassemble a rear derailleur with 
his bike laid out on the grass in front of the school.



--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Brewster Fong]

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 11:01:14 AM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
>
> On 01/31/2018 12:34 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:
>
> I think the "advantage" of a threadless headset is in the adjustment. 
> Throw in a face plate stem and you can easily swap stems and bars. But 
> really, how many people do that?  So again, it comes back to adjustment. 
> Threadless is so simple and requires what a 5mm hex wrench?! 
>
>
> And yet, many times I've encountered riders on a club ride who had loose 
> headsets -- threadless in all but one case (and he was screwing around with 
> the headset the night before, didn't adjust it right and left the wrench in 
> the car -- and this as we were about 2 hrs into a 4 day tour in South 
> Dakota!) -- and not one of those riders with threadless headsets had any 
> idea how to adjust their headset.  Not a one.  Being a threaded headset 
> user, I have no idea either, so we'ved asked around and *not one single 
> person on the entire club ride* -- and they themselves all had threadless 
> headsets -- *ever* had any idea how to adjust one.
>

So let me get this straight. A guy is about to go on a four day tour and 
the night before he decides to "screw around" with the threadless headset. 
However, he has no idea what he's doing and then a couple of hours into the 
ride, the headset comes loose and he has no idea how to adjust it nor does 
he have a 5mm to fix it?!  Wow. I agree in that scenario, there is no 
advantage. I guess the advantage would be to a threaded headset as he would 
need two specific tools (32mm or 36mm) to adjust it.  In that case, the 
threaded headset would probably keep him from being tempted to "screw 
around" with the headset the night before a big ride.  Unbelievable  

>
> So in my book, although there's unquestionably a theoretical advantage 
> there, in practice it's meaningless since nobody seems to know how to do it.
>

In your scenario, where no one knows how to work on a threadless headset, I 
agree! But adjusting a threadless headset really isn't that hard and a lot 
easier than a threaded headset.

Of course, as you shown in your example, YMMV! 

Good Luck!  

>
> -- 
> Steve Palincsar
> Alexandria, Virginia 
> USA
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Bill Lindsay]

I’m happy that what I offered was useful to you. The hypothetical build list 
above was not a big time expenditure. A more thorough plan involves weighing 
everything individually and that was the approach I didn’t have time to take 
and I believe you weren’t asking for. 

Best
Bill 

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[ted]

Bill,

I don't know that there is a point.
I am not trying to test you.
I do not want to bicker about whether some part is "dumb" or not.
I do not want you to design a build list for me.
I don't think you are wrong, and I'm not out to prove anything.

I am interested in the reasoning behind your statement. I am interested in 
what component choices you might make on your own Roadeo to get down to 
19lbs that you would not make if you were only shooting for say 20 or 
21lbs, and I am interested if there are options you think of that would get 
it even lower but that you reject because you find them "dumb", and what 
those options might be.

I believe you have now covered all that very nicely in your post, which I 
appreciate.
Sorry about wasting/killing so much of your time.

thanks
Ted




On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 8:02:58 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
>
> Ted
>
> I'm not sure what the point is, exactly.  Are you trying to test me on all 
> possible bike parts, looking for me to say some part is 'not dumb', so you 
> can say "gotcha! that part IS dumb!" ?  Do you sincerely want me to design 
> your build list for you because you want to build a 19 pound Roadeo and 
> don't know how to do it?  Do you suspect I'm wrong and you want to prove 
> that I can't build a 19 pound Roadeo?  Or are we just killing time because 
> it's Winter?  
>
> Whatever it is, you are right that I have better things to do than to 
> design a proper and complete build list in the way I normally approach 
> builds.  I approach builds with a lot of forethought and deliberation, and 
> I've gotten pretty good at it.  I'm not going to design a Roadeo build for 
> you, but I'll give you something in the ballpark.  
>
> My 59cm Black Mountain Cycles Road bike weighs 20.2 lbs (9171g) as 
> pictured:
>
>
> 
>
>
> I categorize everything in five buckets:
>
> A. Frameset (59cm BMC Road + Cane Creek 50 headset)
> B. Wheelset (HED rims, 32 spokes, White Industries hubs, Challenge Eroica 
> tires, SRAM 1070 cassette, standard tubes) 
> C. Drivetrain (Herse Cranks, White Industries Ti BB, Shimano SPD pedals, 
> Dura Ace 10 F+R ders, Dura Ace downtube shifters, SRAM 1091 chain)
> D. Components (Flite saddle, ultegra seatpost, Nitto Soba handlebars, 
> Civia Bryant stem, Shimano mid reach brakes, customized tektro brakelevers, 
> newbaums tape)
> E. Accessories (bell, two ti cages)
>
> A 19 pound Roadeo needs to be 545 grams lighter.  I assume the Roadeo 
> frameset is a hair lighter than my $600 Black Mountain frameset, but I 
> don't know for sure.  Assume they are the same.  I would save some weight 
> by running a not-dumb all-metal wheelset.  I think carbon wheels are dumb.  
> Carbon sucks as a braking surface, and carbon clinchers with a metal 
> braking surface are neither light nor affordable.  My current favorite 
> not-dumb wheelset is the HED Ardennes Plus.  Its a 1610g wheelset, with 
> 25mm wide tubeless ready metal rims.  Everybody smarts regards those rims 
> as bomber, and Jenson sells the wheelset for $349.  not-dumb-wheels 
>   That 
> would drop about 150 grams.  I'd run Chinook Pass EL tires and light tubes, 
> which would drop another 150 grams.  The 220 gram Flite saddle works for 
> me, but the 145 gram also works for me.  A Dura Ace cassette which is 
> half-ti costs $189 but it saves another 75 grams or so.  Don't run a bell, 
> and a nice steel threadless stem would weigh about 70 grams less than the 
> one I have.  That puts me right at 19 pounds with nothing dumb.  I think 
> that maybe VO Gran Cru brake calipers might be a little lighter than the 
> Shimanos, but whatever.  There are plenty of lighter 'road' pedals, but 
> whatever.  My customized brakelevers might seem dumb.  I customized them to 
> improve the shape and for the fun of the look, but it also reduced the 
> weight to just under 100g per lever.  SRAM carbon levers weigh more like 
> 125 grams per lever, and I could go find 50 grams somewhere else.  If the 
> $2400 Roadeo is in fact a few grams lighter than the $595 Black Mountain, 
> then I'd be ahead of the game.  
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 4:01:56 PM UTC-8, ted wrote:
>>
>> Bill,
>> You seem to ask what I was asking.
>> I am wondering what you think is dumb when it comes to building a light 
>> Roadeo. I.e. what choices could you make that would make it lighter that 
>> you would chose not to make because you think it would be dumb.
>> I would also be interested if you would suggest a build list that results 
>> in a sub 19lb Roadeo, but that seems like a bit much to ask. I expect 
>> you've got better things to do.
>>
>> Regards
>> Ted
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Bill Lindsay]

This is the 145 gram saddle that works for me.  The Selle Italia SLR 
Titanium:  https://www.selleitalia.com/en/saddles/slr-titanium-black/

BL in EC

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 8:02:58 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
>
> The 220 gram Flite saddle works for me, but the 145 gram also works for 
> me.  
>

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[islaysteve]

Awesome build and post, Bill. Love the look of your BMC.   You've provided 
useful information for fantasizing about putting my Bleriot on a diet.  
Realistically, I can remove the rack and get a lighter saddle than the 
Brooks.  Thanks, Steve


On Thursday, January 25, 2018 at 6:21:48 PM UTC-5, Lum Gim Fong wrote:
>
> Reading Grant interview where he was saying they were shooting for sub-20 
> wihen they developed  the Roadeo and was wondering if anyone here has 
> realized this on their Roadeo.

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Bill Lindsay]

Ted

I'm not sure what the point is, exactly.  Are you trying to test me on all 
possible bike parts, looking for me to say some part is 'not dumb', so you 
can say "gotcha! that part IS dumb!" ?  Do you sincerely want me to design 
your build list for you because you want to build a 19 pound Roadeo and 
don't know how to do it?  Do you suspect I'm wrong and you want to prove 
that I can't build a 19 pound Roadeo?  Or are we just killing time because 
it's Winter?  

Whatever it is, you are right that I have better things to do than to 
design a proper and complete build list in the way I normally approach 
builds.  I approach builds with a lot of forethought and deliberation, and 
I've gotten pretty good at it.  I'm not going to design a Roadeo build for 
you, but I'll give you something in the ballpark.  

My 59cm Black Mountain Cycles Road bike weighs 20.2 lbs (9171g) as pictured:




I categorize everything in five buckets:

A. Frameset (59cm BMC Road + Cane Creek 50 headset)
B. Wheelset (HED rims, 32 spokes, White Industries hubs, Challenge Eroica 
tires, SRAM 1070 cassette, standard tubes) 
C. Drivetrain (Herse Cranks, White Industries Ti BB, Shimano SPD pedals, 
Dura Ace 10 F+R ders, Dura Ace downtube shifters, SRAM 1091 chain)
D. Components (Flite saddle, ultegra seatpost, Nitto Soba handlebars, Civia 
Bryant stem, Shimano mid reach brakes, customized tektro brakelevers, 
newbaums tape)
E. Accessories (bell, two ti cages)

A 19 pound Roadeo needs to be 545 grams lighter.  I assume the Roadeo 
frameset is a hair lighter than my $600 Black Mountain frameset, but I 
don't know for sure.  Assume they are the same.  I would save some weight 
by running a not-dumb all-metal wheelset.  I think carbon wheels are dumb.  
Carbon sucks as a braking surface, and carbon clinchers with a metal 
braking surface are neither light nor affordable.  My current favorite 
not-dumb wheelset is the HED Ardennes Plus.  Its a 1610g wheelset, with 
25mm wide tubeless ready metal rims.  Everybody smarts regards those rims 
as bomber, and Jenson sells the wheelset for $349.  not-dumb-wheels 
  That 
would drop about 150 grams.  I'd run Chinook Pass EL tires and light tubes, 
which would drop another 150 grams.  The 220 gram Flite saddle works for 
me, but the 145 gram also works for me.  A Dura Ace cassette which is 
half-ti costs $189 but it saves another 75 grams or so.  Don't run a bell, 
and a nice steel threadless stem would weigh about 70 grams less than the 
one I have.  That puts me right at 19 pounds with nothing dumb.  I think 
that maybe VO Gran Cru brake calipers might be a little lighter than the 
Shimanos, but whatever.  There are plenty of lighter 'road' pedals, but 
whatever.  My customized brakelevers might seem dumb.  I customized them to 
improve the shape and for the fun of the look, but it also reduced the 
weight to just under 100g per lever.  SRAM carbon levers weigh more like 
125 grams per lever, and I could go find 50 grams somewhere else.  If the 
$2400 Roadeo is in fact a few grams lighter than the $595 Black Mountain, 
then I'd be ahead of the game.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA



On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 4:01:56 PM UTC-8, ted wrote:
>
> Bill,
> You seem to ask what I was asking.
> I am wondering what you think is dumb when it comes to building a light 
> Roadeo. I.e. what choices could you make that would make it lighter that 
> you would chose not to make because you think it would be dumb.
> I would also be interested if you would suggest a build list that results 
> in a sub 19lb Roadeo, but that seems like a bit much to ask. I expect 
> you've got better things to do.
>
> Regards
> Ted
>

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[ted]

As Bill said dumb is in the eye of the beholder.
I take it in your eye carbon rim wheels (tubular or not) are not dumb. That's 
cool.
They certainly can save a fair amount of weight.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[ted]

Though a threadless headset may be easier to adjust than a threaded one, 
adjusting the bar height with a quil stem is easier than adjusting it with a 
threadless setup.
An individual could reasonably prefer either one based on those characteristics.

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[ted]

Bill,
You seem to ask what I was asking.
I am wondering what you think is dumb when it comes to building a light Roadeo. 
I.e. what choices could you make that would make it lighter that you would 
chose not to make because you think it would be dumb.
I would also be interested if you would suggest a build list that results in a 
sub 19lb Roadeo, but that seems like a bit much to ask. I expect you've got 
better things to do.

Regards
Ted

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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/31/2018 03:29 PM, Jim M. wrote:
On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 11:01:14 AM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar 
wrote:


we'ved asked around and /not one single person on the entire club
ride/ -- and they themselves all had threadless headsets -- *ever*
had any idea how to adjust one.


That's a fault of the user, not the technology. Do they actually do 
any work on their bikes?


Obviously not -- at least, not beyond putting air into the tires.


But I didn't say it was a fault of the technology.  What I said was it 
was a theoretical advantage that failed to manifest itself in real life 
on account of user ignorance.




Threadless are easy peasy to adjust. Though -- like threaded -- if 
they're installed properly, you shouldn't need to adjust them on a ride.


Agreed.  Being totally ignorant of mountain biking other than seeing 
pictures of MTB riders falling from great heights into holes and such, 
I'm willing to accept the possibility that MTB may produce abusive 
situations where headsets do loosen in use on a ride.



I use both and wouldn't claim one is better than the other. I'm 
getting a threaded NItto that has a removable faceplate, so it's the 
best of both worlds, I hope.




There are advantages and disadvantages to each system.  Threadless may 
have clearly won in the marketplace but I'm not convinced its advantages 
accrue to the end user as much as they do to the manufacturer.


--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Jim M.]

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 11:01:14 AM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> we'ved asked around and *not one single person on the entire club ride* 
> -- and they themselves all had threadless headsets -- *ever* had any idea 
> how to adjust one.
>
> That's a fault of the user, not the technology. Do they actually do any 
work on their bikes? Threadless are easy peasy to adjust. Though -- like 
threaded -- if they're installed properly, you shouldn't need to adjust 
them on a ride. I use both and wouldn't claim one is better than the other. 
I'm getting a threaded NItto that has a removable faceplate, so it's the 
best of both worlds, I hope.

jim m
walnut creek, ca 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Steve Palincsar]

It may be a MTB thing, but not a road thing.


On 01/31/2018 03:01 PM, lconley wrote:
It has been 49 years since my 1st 50 mile ride and I have never found 
the need to adjust a headset while on a ride.


Laing
Cocoa, FL

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 2:26:07 PM UTC-5, RJM wrote:

The advantage being you can adjust a threadless headset with an
allen key, which is on a multi-tool. Threaded you got to bring a
couple of decent sized wrenches to adjust.




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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[lconley]

It has been 49 years since my 1st 50 mile ride and I have never found the 
need to adjust a headset while on a ride.

Laing
Cocoa, FL

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 2:26:07 PM UTC-5, RJM wrote:

> The advantage being you can adjust a threadless headset with an allen key, 
> which is on a multi-tool. Threaded you got to bring a couple of decent 
> sized wrenches to adjust. 
>
>
>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[RJM]

The advantage being you can adjust a threadless headset with an allen key, 
which is on a multi-tool. Threaded you got to bring a couple of decent 
sized wrenches to adjust. 

All this talk about headset weight got me to checking and it brought me to 
a website called weight weeniesI shut it down after about three 
minutes. Doood. At some point counting grams becomes dumb. lol.

but, I did find out that most threadless headset weights include the top 
cap and star nut. 

As an aside and a little off topic - I'm currently building up my 1996 
specialized stumpjumper because I was tired of looking at it all sad and in 
pieces in the garage so I had to buy a headset for it. I choose a Hope 1 
1/8" headset because I could find one in an awesome red color and it came 
today. That thing is a work of art...same with the Chris King grip nut 
(lock nut?) headset I had on my Roadeo. Good components are just beautiful. 

>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/31/2018 12:34 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:
I think the "advantage" of a threadless headset is in the adjustment. 
Throw in a face plate stem and you can easily swap stems and bars. But 
really, how many people do that?  So again, it comes back to 
adjustment. Threadless is so simple and requires what a 5mm hex wrench?!


And yet, many times I've encountered riders on a club ride who had loose 
headsets -- threadless in all but one case (and he was screwing around 
with the headset the night before, didn't adjust it right and left the 
wrench in the car -- and this as we were about 2 hrs into a 4 day tour 
in South Dakota!) -- and not one of those riders with threadless 
headsets had any idea how to adjust their headset.  Not a one.  Being a 
threaded headset user, I have no idea either, so we'ved asked around and 
/not one single person on the entire club ride/ -- and they themselves 
all had threadless headsets -- *ever* had any idea how to adjust one.


So in my book, although there's unquestionably a theoretical advantage 
there, in practice it's meaningless since nobody seems to know how to do it.


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Alexandria, Virginia
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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Brewster Fong]

I think the "advantage" of a threadless headset is in the adjustment. Throw 
in a face plate stem and you can easily swap stems and bars. But really, 
how many people do that?  So again, it comes back to adjustment. Threadless 
is so simple and requires what a 5mm hex wrench?! 

As for your question as to whether carbon wheels are "dumb?"  Depends on 
what you want. One reason why tubular tires are so popular again is that 
with a carbon rim wheelset, you can get a total wheelset under 1200g and 
1000g is not unreasonable!  In contrast, a standard wheelset is around 
1700g or so and carbon clincher wheelsets are around 1400-1500g.  So for 
the weight weenies, a tubular carbon wheelset can save as much as a pound.

On Wednesday, January 31, 2018 at 12:38:11 AM UTC-8, ted wrote:
>
> If you want the bar height a Nitto Technomic gives threadless is not 
> appealing, so I don't think thats a reasonable stem to do the weight 
> comparison with. 
> I have a Nitto Pearl stem (11cm extension 26.0 clamp) that I weighed at 
> 346gr. That's ~.35lb more than your 189gr for the Bontrager race lite. The 
> threadless headset saves a few grams but you should also add for the star 
> nut, top cap, and several cm of steerer tube.
> I seriously doubt that is going to add up to an additional .15lb savings 
> over the straight stem comparison.
> Looking at quoted weights for Campi headsets on the Bens Cycles web site I 
> come up with a 6gr savings for the threadless over the threaded version. I 
> bet a star nut and top cap weigh more than that.
>
> I would never argue with somebody who prefers the aesthetics and easy 
> height adjustability of a quill stem over the weight savings of a 
> threadless set up.
>
> On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 6:33:39 AM UTC-8, RJM wrote:
>>
>> Factoring in the headset weight differences and the weight differences 
>> between a Nitto Technomic 427g vs. a Bontrager race lite 189g road stem 
>> (just pulling these out of thin air) you might see a half pound difference. 
>> But, there is something about the classic styling of a nice quill stem on a 
>> roadeo that really sets it off. Plus, if you were going to be a weight 
>> weenie, I don't think you would be choosing a steel frame anyway. 
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, January 27, 2018 at 12:50:57 PM UTC-6, JohnS wrote:
>>
>>> Isn't it still true that you can save 1/2 pound with a threadless 
>>> steerer tube? Seems like that would help with getting to sub 20lbs. That's 
>>> what I would prefer to have on my Roadeo, someday
>>>
>>> JohnS
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, January 26, 2018 at 1:52:55 PM UTC-5, LBleriot wrote:

 Without the B17 and enormously heavy Crane bell, this gets pretty close 
 20 lbs.

 On Thursday, January 25, 2018 at 6:21:48 PM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> Reading Grant interview where he was saying they were shooting for 
> sub-20 wihen they developed  the Roadeo and was wondering if anyone here 
> has realized this on their Roadeo.



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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Bill Lindsay]

Ted asked questions and directed those questions at me.  I’m not sure exactly 
what answers he wants from me. I’m reasonably confident I could build a 59cm 
Roadeo (my size) that weighs under 19lbs without making any decisions that I 
would consider dumb. I am supremely confident I could build a 57cm Legolas (my 
size) that is cross-race ready and weighs under 20 pounds without making any 
decisions that I would consider dumb. 

Dumb is in the eye of the beholder
Straightforward is in the eye of the beholder 

Bill Lindsay 
El Cerrito Ca

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[ted]

Bill,

Once one starts down the weight weenie road, I'm not sure when the "nothing 
dumb" line is crossed.
Before I striped it (stealing parts to build up my BMC-Road), my old Gios 
"race" bike was ~19.5 lbs. That was with a Campi ergo 10sp drive train 
(mostly record), a bar and stem that saved ~.5lb over the Cinelli set it 
replaced, and cane creek ti short reach brakes. The only straightforward 
weight savings I saw for that bike would have been replacing the seatpost 
(old suntour superbe) with carbon or ti, and trading the speedplay steel 
pedals for ti ones.
Considering that bike, I'm skeptical about a sub 19 lb Roadeo being 
"straightforward". I doubt a Roadeo frame would be significantly lighter 
than that Gios (~5.6lbs frame fork and headset).
Are carbon rim wheels "dumb"? Are several hundred $$ cassettes "dumb"?

ted

On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 7:15:15 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> RJM is right that anybody endeavoring to build the lightest possible bike 
> won’t choose a steel frame. That said, there are still plenty of people who 
> want a steel frame AND want it to weigh under 20 pounds.   
>
> A sub 20 pound off-road ready Legolas should be straightforward. A sub 19 
> pound Roadeo with nothing dumb on it should also be straightforward. You 
> just need to decide to do it, or not. Rackless, fenderless and lightless 
> makes it much easier. 
>
> Contemplating your 26 pound road bike and wishing it was <20 pounds is a 
> little more complicated and costly:   
>
> Take it completely apart 
> Weigh every single thing 
> Make sure the sum of the weights makes sense 
> Eliminate stuff and replace parts with lighter choices until the sum is 
> where you want it to be 
> Put it back together 
>
> Bill Lindsay 
> El Cerrito Ca

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[ted]

If you want the bar height a Nitto Technomic gives threadless is not 
appealing, so I don't think thats a reasonable stem to do the weight 
comparison with. 
I have a Nitto Pearl stem (11cm extension 26.0 clamp) that I weighed at 
346gr. That's ~.35lb more than your 189gr for the Bontrager race lite. The 
threadless headset saves a few grams but you should also add for the star 
nut, top cap, and several cm of steerer tube.
I seriously doubt that is going to add up to an additional .15lb savings 
over the straight stem comparison.
Looking at quoted weights for Campi headsets on the Bens Cycles web site I 
come up with a 6gr savings for the threadless over the threaded version. I 
bet a star nut and top cap weigh more than that.

I would never argue with somebody who prefers the aesthetics and easy 
height adjustability of a quill stem over the weight savings of a 
threadless set up.

On Tuesday, January 30, 2018 at 6:33:39 AM UTC-8, RJM wrote:
>
> Factoring in the headset weight differences and the weight differences 
> between a Nitto Technomic 427g vs. a Bontrager race lite 189g road stem 
> (just pulling these out of thin air) you might see a half pound difference. 
> But, there is something about the classic styling of a nice quill stem on a 
> roadeo that really sets it off. Plus, if you were going to be a weight 
> weenie, I don't think you would be choosing a steel frame anyway. 
>
>
> On Saturday, January 27, 2018 at 12:50:57 PM UTC-6, JohnS wrote:
>
>> Isn't it still true that you can save 1/2 pound with a threadless steerer 
>> tube? Seems like that would help with getting to sub 20lbs. That's what I 
>> would prefer to have on my Roadeo, someday
>>
>> JohnS
>>
>>
>> On Friday, January 26, 2018 at 1:52:55 PM UTC-5, LBleriot wrote:
>>>
>>> Without the B17 and enormously heavy Crane bell, this gets pretty close 
>>> 20 lbs.
>>>
>>> On Thursday, January 25, 2018 at 6:21:48 PM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:

 Reading Grant interview where he was saying they were shooting for 
 sub-20 wihen they developed  the Roadeo and was wondering if anyone here 
 has realized this on their Roadeo.
>>>
>>>

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Bill Lindsay]

RJM is right that anybody endeavoring to build the lightest possible bike won’t 
choose a steel frame. That said, there are still plenty of people who want a 
steel frame AND want it to weigh under 20 pounds.  

A sub 20 pound off-road ready Legolas should be straightforward. A sub 19 pound 
Roadeo with nothing dumb on it should also be straightforward. You just need to 
decide to do it, or not. Rackless, fenderless and lightless makes it much 
easier. 

Contemplating your 26 pound road bike and wishing it was <20 pounds is a little 
more complicated and costly:  

Take it completely apart
Weigh every single thing
Make sure the sum of the weights makes sense
Eliminate stuff and replace parts with lighter choices until the sum is where 
you want it to be
Put it back together 

Bill Lindsay 
El Cerrito Ca

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[RJM]

Factoring in the headset weight differences and the weight differences 
between a Nitto Technomic 427g vs. a Bontrager race lite 189g road stem 
(just pulling these out of thin air) you might see a half pound difference. 
But, there is something about the classic styling of a nice quill stem on a 
roadeo that really sets it off. Plus, if you were going to be a weight 
weenie, I don't think you would be choosing a steel frame anyway. 


On Saturday, January 27, 2018 at 12:50:57 PM UTC-6, JohnS wrote:

> Isn't it still true that you can save 1/2 pound with a threadless steerer 
> tube? Seems like that would help with getting to sub 20lbs. That's what I 
> would prefer to have on my Roadeo, someday
>
> JohnS
>
>
> On Friday, January 26, 2018 at 1:52:55 PM UTC-5, LBleriot wrote:
>>
>> Without the B17 and enormously heavy Crane bell, this gets pretty close 
>> 20 lbs.
>>
>> On Thursday, January 25, 2018 at 6:21:48 PM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:
>>>
>>> Reading Grant interview where he was saying they were shooting for 
>>> sub-20 wihen they developed  the Roadeo and was wondering if anyone here 
>>> has realized this on their Roadeo.
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Christopher Murray]

>From the Rodeo description page: 

“Threaded gives you more bar-height potential (which translates to comfort, for 
most people) but weighs about 8 ounces more. It's probably the way to go if 
you're a solo rider wanting a light road bike with maximum comfort and classic 
styling. If you'll likely run your bars at or above saddle level, this is 
definitely the way to go from a functional and aesthetic perspective.”

It is not clear if that’s a complete bike or frame and fork. 

Chris

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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[ted]

Suppose so, probly the only proper direct comparison would be threadless to 
threaded rodeo frame-fork-headset-stem-bars with buyers spec stem length, bar 
height (don't forget any spacers) and bars. 
I suspect the weight savings for threadless would be closer to a third of a lb 
than a half. I wouldn't be surprised if it was less than a third of a lb.
Furthermore, since I have an old quil bar and stem set that weighs about an oz 
more than a comparable set of threadless stuff you can buy new today, I think 
the weight savings is because of what's in production today and not the result 
of any inherent advantage of the threadless design.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[JohnS]

Threadless head sets also contribute to the weight savings, no lock nuts 
nor lock ring. 

JohnS


On Sunday, January 28, 2018 at 2:28:19 AM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> Stems: 
> 1. Nitto Technomic Deluxe 6cm/22.2/26.0/190-287g 
> 2. Nitto Technomic Deluxe 7cm/225/25.4/22.2-328g 
> 3. Nitto Pearl 8cm/22.2/26.0- 296g 
> 4. Nitto Pearl 8cm/22.2/25.4- 299g 
>
> Handlebars: 
> 1. Nitto 41cm (“410”) Model 177 Noodle-322g 
> 2. Nitto 40cm (“400”) M151F bar- 339g 
> 3. Nitto 52cm Aluminum Heat Treated Bosco Bar-384g

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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[lum gim fong]

Stems:
1. Nitto Technomic Deluxe 6cm/22.2/26.0/190-287g
2. Nitto Technomic Deluxe 7cm/225/25.4/22.2-328g
3. Nitto Pearl 8cm/22.2/26.0- 296g
4. Nitto Pearl 8cm/22.2/25.4- 299g

Handlebars:
1. Nitto 41cm (“410”) Model 177 Noodle-322g
2. Nitto 40cm (“400”) M151F bar- 339g
3. Nitto 52cm Aluminum Heat Treated Bosco Bar-384g

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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[lum gim fong]

Some components have a function that pays their way in their weight.

For instance, I simply must have a Flyer saddle. 865g.
Worth every gram to me.

Also, 42mm, low pressur, supple tires for safety. Sure they are heavier than 
23mm, but for safety, I don’t want to ride any narrower than 42.
Anything narrower than 32mm where I ride gets caught in road cracks and I have 
snagged tires and crashed. Broke my arm once. So 19-28mm tires are not worth 
the weight savings for me.
I need to roll over stuff and not get The front tire entangled and throwing me 
to the ground.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/27/2018 07:40 PM, ted wrote:


Some mfg. quoted handlebar weights
  Nitto 176 (aka dream)   315gr
  Compass Maes Parallel 25.4 superlight   289gr
  Ritchey wcs neoclassic 260gr
  Ritchey wcs carbon neoclassic 213gr

No doubt the Compass bars are fine, and I wouldn't call them heavy, 
but I do think there are a lot more sub 300gr bars on the market in 
31.8 than 26.0 or 25.4 (I doubt that the Ritchey products are 
particularly unique). Also clearly there are lighter bars on the 
market (in 31.8) than the Compass "superlight" options.
If one wants to minimize the weight of a Roadeo frame, fork, stem and 
bars I believe that choosing the threadles fork option would be the 
way to go. Ready availability of lighter bar options plays a part in that.
No doubt readily available threadles stems are also lighter than quill 
options. E.g. a 110mm Nitto pearl is ~345gr and a 120mm Ritchey wcs 
220 stem only weighs ~140gr. But the threadless stem needs to be 
clamped to a length of steerer tube thats not there with a quill stem 
setup, and I don't know how much that hunk of tube adds.


On the other hand I have an old Synchros 26.0 quill stem and Ritchey 
bar that weigh 437gr combined. That's about 197gr (or about .43Lb) 
less than the Nitto Pearl stem and Compass superlight bar combined. So 
I'm not convinced that quill setups can't be as light at threadless, 
but I am convinced that sticking to whats sold all over the place they 
aren't.


However, it is worth mentioning that when it comes to handlebars, the 
shape is at least as important as the weight and should factor heavily 
in the choice.   The wrong bar is going to hold you back a lot more than 
the weight differential would do.



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USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[ted]

Some mfg. quoted handlebar weights
  Nitto 176 (aka dream)   315gr
  Compass Maes Parallel 25.4 superlight   289gr
  Ritchey wcs neoclassic 260gr
  Ritchey wcs carbon neoclassic 213gr

No doubt the Compass bars are fine, and I wouldn't call them heavy, but I 
do think there are a lot more sub 300gr bars on the market in 31.8 than 
26.0 or 25.4 (I doubt that the Ritchey products are particularly unique). 
Also clearly there are lighter bars on the market (in 31.8) than the 
Compass "superlight" options.
If one wants to minimize the weight of a Roadeo frame, fork, stem and bars 
I believe that choosing the threadles fork option would be the way to go. 
Ready availability of lighter bar options plays a part in that.
No doubt readily available threadles stems are also lighter than quill 
options. E.g. a 110mm Nitto pearl is ~345gr and a 120mm Ritchey wcs 220 
stem only weighs ~140gr. But the threadless stem needs to be clamped to a 
length of steerer tube thats not there with a quill stem setup, and I don't 
know how much that hunk of tube adds.

On the other hand I have an old Synchros 26.0 quill stem and Ritchey bar 
that weigh 437gr combined. That's about 197gr (or about .43Lb) less than 
the Nitto Pearl stem and Compass superlight bar combined. So I'm not 
convinced that quill setups can't be as light at threadless, but I am 
convinced that sticking to whats sold all over the place they aren't.



 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Steve Palincsar]

Not sure what you mean by "lightweight bars" but the Compass Maes 
Parallel and Randonneur handlebars are available in 25.4 diameter in 
"superlight" versions that are under 300 grams; they can be used with 
26.0 diameter stems with shims.   The bars also available in 31.8 diameter.



On 01/27/2018 05:40 PM, ted wrote:

I think a half lb may be overstating it, keep in mind that just comparing stem 
and bar weights isn't the whole story since the threadles style needs a longer 
(and thus heavier) steerer tube. But most lightweight bars sold these days are 
31.8, as are threadles stems whereas I doubt you'll find a light quill stem 
with a 31.8 clamp.
If your going to be a weight watcher going with threadles does make sense.



--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[ted]

I think a half lb may be overstating it, keep in mind that just comparing stem 
and bar weights isn't the whole story since the threadles style needs a longer 
(and thus heavier) steerer tube. But most lightweight bars sold these days are 
31.8, as are threadles stems whereas I doubt you'll find a light quill stem 
with a 31.8 clamp.
If your going to be a weight watcher going with threadles does make sense.

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[JohnS]

Isn't it still true that you can save 1/2 pound with a threadless steerer 
tube? Seems like that would help with getting to sub 20lbs. That's what I 
would prefer to have on my Roadeo, someday

JohnS


On Friday, January 26, 2018 at 1:52:55 PM UTC-5, LBleriot wrote:
>
> Without the B17 and enormously heavy Crane bell, this gets pretty close 20 
> lbs.
>
> On Thursday, January 25, 2018 at 6:21:48 PM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:
>>
>> Reading Grant interview where he was saying they were shooting for sub-20 
>> wihen they developed  the Roadeo and was wondering if anyone here has 
>> realized this on their Roadeo.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[LBleriot]

Without the B17 and enormously heavy Crane bell, this gets pretty close 20 
lbs.

On Thursday, January 25, 2018 at 6:21:48 PM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> Reading Grant interview where he was saying they were shooting for sub-20 
> wihen they developed  the Roadeo and was wondering if anyone here has 
> realized this on their Roadeo.

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[JohnS]

Thanks for posting the article. My plan at this time is that a Roadeo would 
be next bike for the kind of riding it is intended for. It would replace my 
vintage aluminum Trek 1000 which I got for a very good price. It's good 
bike, lively and responsive, but the ride can be harsh compared to my QB 
and Salsa Casseroll. I think the Roadeo will fit the bill perfectly.

JohnS
 

>
>
> On Thursday, January 25, 2018 at 5:21:48 PM UTC-6, lum gim fong wrote:
>
>> Reading Grant interview where he was saying they were shooting for sub-20 
>> wihen they developed  the Roadeo and was wondering if anyone here has 
>> realized this on their Roadeo.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Tim Gavin]

My 59cm Roadeo was about 21.5# with classic parts:
28h Mavic Open Pro laced to Shimano 600 tricolor hubs
Nitto stem and bars
8-speed Campagnolo (Sachs version, actually) Ergopower shifters and
derailleurs
VO 46/30 crank and VO cartridge BB
Brooks Pro saddle

so <20# shouldn't be hard with mid-range modern components.


On Fri, Jan 26, 2018 at 12:12 PM, RJM  wrote:

> I had a 53cm Roadeo in Orange that I built up using fairly light weight
> parts and it was under 20 lbs...like 19.5 lbs if I remember correctly. It
> may have been a bit less but I wound up selling it when I bought a Trek
> Emonda SL6, which came in at 16 lbs with the same Rolf wheelset. Off the
> top of my head, here was the build:
>
> 53cm Roadeo with threaded headset and fork
> Nitto s83 seatpost
> Rolf Vigor RS wheels
> 25mm Continental gp4000s tires (originally had 32mm Stampede Pass tires on
> it but after I ran through those I switched to the GPs)
> Full Ultegra 6800 groupset
> bontrager Paradigm saddle
> Nitto lugged stem
> Mark's bars by Nitto
> Look classic clipless pedals
>
> As a racey road bike it did very well and I really liked it; very
> comfortable and fast bike. I was quite a bit faster on the Roadeo compared
> to the Sam I also had, which was the point for me. If I was going to do it
> again the only change I would do would be to get the threadless fork/stem
> option. I originally bought the Roadeo to be my only road bike and to ride
> with the club on fast, spirited paceline type rides and other centuries.
> The bike worked great for that. I bought the carbon bike on a whim and
> found I also enjoyed the ride and felt it scooted up hills faster. It was
> more responsive but also comfortable, plus the price was right. Since then,
> I've stopped road riding and have re-discovered mountain biking so now I'm
> fresh out of road bikes and have sold them all. lol.
>
>
>
> Ryan (who is currently contemplating a Legolas custom to race cyclocross
> with)
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, January 25, 2018 at 5:21:48 PM UTC-6, lum gim fong wrote:
>
>> Reading Grant interview where he was saying they were shooting for sub-20
>> wihen they developed  the Roadeo and was wondering if anyone here has
>> realized this on their Roadeo.
>
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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[RJM]

I had a 53cm Roadeo in Orange that I built up using fairly light weight 
parts and it was under 20 lbs...like 19.5 lbs if I remember correctly. It 
may have been a bit less but I wound up selling it when I bought a Trek 
Emonda SL6, which came in at 16 lbs with the same Rolf wheelset. Off the 
top of my head, here was the build:

53cm Roadeo with threaded headset and fork
Nitto s83 seatpost
Rolf Vigor RS wheels
25mm Continental gp4000s tires (originally had 32mm Stampede Pass tires on 
it but after I ran through those I switched to the GPs) 
Full Ultegra 6800 groupset
bontrager Paradigm saddle
Nitto lugged stem 
Mark's bars by Nitto
Look classic clipless pedals

As a racey road bike it did very well and I really liked it; very 
comfortable and fast bike. I was quite a bit faster on the Roadeo compared 
to the Sam I also had, which was the point for me. If I was going to do it 
again the only change I would do would be to get the threadless fork/stem 
option. I originally bought the Roadeo to be my only road bike and to ride 
with the club on fast, spirited paceline type rides and other centuries. 
The bike worked great for that. I bought the carbon bike on a whim and 
found I also enjoyed the ride and felt it scooted up hills faster. It was 
more responsive but also comfortable, plus the price was right. Since then, 
I've stopped road riding and have re-discovered mountain biking so now I'm 
fresh out of road bikes and have sold them all. lol. 



Ryan (who is currently contemplating a Legolas custom to race cyclocross 
with)





On Thursday, January 25, 2018 at 5:21:48 PM UTC-6, lum gim fong wrote:

> Reading Grant interview where he was saying they were shooting for sub-20 
> wihen they developed  the Roadeo and was wondering if anyone here has 
> realized this on their Roadeo.

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Thanks. Yes, I read that a while back, may have been posted here on another 
thread. My favorite line:

It has an integral chainstay bridge, and uses a slightly lighter seat tube, 
and the combo saves about 3 ounces, or about the same amount of weight 
you'd lose by spitting five times and cutting off a mullet.

Grant says he relied on help from Marc Muller to shave off another 4 oz (a 
quick pee and my winter beard).

There have been a few threads about the Roadini vs. Sam, I think this 
interview illuminates that discussion a bit, for those interested. 
Basically, the Rodeo is the stock model (ie, no Legolas or custom) that has 
the least amount of overlap with any others. Because, why not. With the 
Roadini being the tig version of the Roadeo, I would imagine that still 
holds true for the most part, although unlike the Roadeo, the Roadini does 
have seat stay braze-ons for a rack. And the tube set is a teeny bit 
heavier (but no lugs) so I would guess the target for a light but sensible 
Roadini build would be about 21-22 pds. Still weigh way lighter than my 
rigs these days, which I avoid weighing for the most part, though probably 
fall on a spectrum between mid twenties and low thirties. Weight generally 
doesn't phase me, but there is that psychological psych out factor that can 
create a mental burden and weigh you down. (Ha ha. Not really. I'm so fast 
I need to carry the extra pounds so my riding buddies can keep up with me.)

On Thursday, January 25, 2018 at 7:24:19 PM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:
>
>
> http://www.bikeradar.com/us/news/article/first-look-rivendell-roadeo-steel-club-racer-22939/

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[ted]

The 18lbs for marks bike was without pedals and saddle, but getting down to 
~20lbs without anything not bolted on (e.g. pump, bottles, spare, tubes, tools) 
should be quite doable. That's about what my BMC Road comes in at.

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[lum gim fong]

http://www.bikeradar.com/us/news/article/first-look-rivendell-roadeo-steel-club-racer-22939/

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Ben Miller]

I believe when I first built my Roadeo up it was 21 lbs, without a rack, rando 
bag, and fenders. I could easily see it being sub 20 without my dynamo hub and 
lights. Take away the frame pump and Brooks saddle your even lower. 

But then what's the point of the bike?? 

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

[Sky Coulter]

Grant’s write-up on the roadeo states that Marks 55cm built up weighs 18 lbs.

Sky in new west

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[RBW] Re: Have a Sub 20lb Roadeo?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Was it on the web that you were reading this interview? If so, it would be 
nice to have a link. 

On Thursday, January 25, 2018 at 6:21:48 PM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> Reading Grant interview where he was saying they were shooting for sub-20 
> wihen they developed  the Roadeo and was wondering if anyone here has 
> realized this on their Roadeo.

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