Re: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
An additional 20dB of isolation can be realized by replacing the antenna Tee connector with a circulator. Port A to B tuned to the TX frequency, Port B to C tuned to the RX frequency. Connect TX to port A, antenna to B, Receiver to C. I'm using a set of WP-639 and with this setup I am seeing approx 102dB of rejection from the TX to RX port and 97dB the other way. On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 8:40 PM, Scott Zimmerman n3...@repeater-builder.com wrote: Rich, The short answer is: You need to find a bigger duplexer. Four 8 cans would work well such as a Wacom WP-641. You could simply call and order one if Wacom was still in business. (RIP) Unfortunately Tx/Rx bought them years ago for the name and to quash competition. They can be found occasionally for around $600 or so on the used market. Other alternatives are as follows: 1) You can use two antennas and split the 639 duplexer so that 2 cans are in series between the TX and the TX antenna, and the other two are in series between the RX and the RX antenna. Terry WX3M a list member is doing this with VERY good results on one of his VHF machines. Of course this involves the expense of additional feedline and a second antenna. I think you said you had this machine on an 80' mast. 50' or so of vertical isolation coupled with the additional isolation of splitting the duplexer *may* be enough isolation to get rid of all the desense. TX goes on bottom, RX on top. 2) Buy additional Band Pass / Band Reject (BPBR) cans. You can add these additional cans between the Tx and/or Rx and the duplexer. These cans will give additional isolation. Even if you can find just Pass or Notch cavities, tune them and put them in the correct place. With both of the above options, you are looking to add to the isolation between your transmitter and receiver. You'll find you'll do best by adding cans to your transmitter that notch side-band noise at your receiver's frequency. In other words, do what you can to insure your receiver is not hearing your own transmitter's sideband noise on it's input. Pass cans tuned to the TX frequency or NOTCH cavities tuned to your *RX* frequency placed in the transmit line are your best hope. Good luck, Scott Scott Zimmerman Amateur Radio Call N3XCC 474 Barnett Road Boswell, PA 15531
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
Oh drat! I thought I was getting away with something :-) I am about to start on a 6m mastr ii with 1 meg split. It is a 110 watt cont duty station I am converting to a repeater. I don't think the exciter is a pll, way too many cans on the board and small icom About how much isolation will I need there? I don't know if I have a preamp for this one or not... But if I do, I would try to run it. 73 - Original Message - From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed Sep 08 23:08:38 2010 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question The PLL exciter is why you're having such good success running a 4-cavity duplexer. If you had a PM exciter, chances are you'd be experiencing desense. The PLL exciter produces about 22 dB less noise at 600 kHz offset, reducing the noise supression requirement of the duplexer by a like amount. See: http://www.repeater-builder.com/pdf/GE_Isolation_Curves.pdf The OP also mentioned he was using a preamp - that's not helping his situation either. Even with a good receiver he's probably on the edge of crunching it with only a 4-pack. Personally, I'd never run a preamp with nothing but a 4-cavity duplexer on 2m, but if it works for you, God bless... A Q202G gives more isolation than a WP639 from what I've seen/measured, in part because the cavities are larger diameter (I think they're 7 versus 5?). --- Jeff WN3A -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of NORM KNAPP Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 11:38 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question I got a set of 4 sinclair cans, like a Q202g on a GE mastr II running 100 watts with pll exciter and GE preamp with no desense. Antenna is roughly 300' away fed with LDF7-50A. Is this a miracle or typical? - Original Message - From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed Sep 08 20:10:44 2010 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question I'm not surprised- you're asking too much of a duplexer that has four 5 cans. According to my CommShop program, a duplexer with an 80 dB spec is more suitable with transmitter power in the 10-15 watt range, assuming a solid-state PA and a receiver sensitivity around 0.35 uV at 12 dB SINAD. On a 100 watt repeater, I'd expect something like a WP-642, which has six 8 cans. BTDT, got the T-shirt and mug... 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of RichardK Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:11 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question Good evening, our club has a Wacom WP-639 four can duplexer as part of our repeater system. Input Fq is 147.915 and Output Fq is 147.315. We have a 600kHz (+) offset. Very simply, our main problem is when we run the transmitter at full power 100 watts, there is a HUGE desense on the receive side of things. When we drop the transmitter power level to around 20-50 watts, the receive side opens WAY up to a large area where people can get into the repeater. As we begin to bring up the transmitter power, white noise begins to appear and the receive side starts to desense again. All the cables have been switched to double sheilded cables and all the same wavelength in length. We have the duplexer seperated sheilded from the transmitter preamp parts. We have not replaced the antenna feed coax with double sheilded coax yet. Antenna is a Hustler G7 atop a 55' mast. The duplexer was retuned just over 1 year ago. Any suggestions as to what we could look into next? Some of us believe the problem
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
Hi Scott, can you give me some more information on circulators, or where can I get such information and prices. -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DCFluX Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 2:03 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question An additional 20dB of isolation can be realized by replacing the antenna Tee connector with a circulator. Port A to B tuned to the TX frequency, Port B to C tuned to the RX frequency. Connect TX to port A, antenna to B, Receiver to C. I'm using a set of WP-639 and with this setup I am seeing approx 102dB of rejection from the TX to RX port and 97dB the other way. On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 8:40 PM, Scott Zimmerman n3...@repeater-builder.com mailto:n3xcc%40repeater-builder.com wrote: Rich, The short answer is: You need to find a bigger duplexer. Four 8 cans would work well such as a Wacom WP-641. You could simply call and order one if Wacom was still in business. (RIP) Unfortunately Tx/Rx bought them years ago for the name and to quash competition. They can be found occasionally for around $600 or so on the used market. Other alternatives are as follows: 1) You can use two antennas and split the 639 duplexer so that 2 cans are in series between the TX and the TX antenna, and the other two are in series between the RX and the RX antenna. Terry WX3M a list member is doing this with VERY good results on one of his VHF machines. Of course this involves the expense of additional feedline and a second antenna. I think you said you had this machine on an 80' mast. 50' or so of vertical isolation coupled with the additional isolation of splitting the duplexer *may* be enough isolation to get rid of all the desense. TX goes on bottom, RX on top. 2) Buy additional Band Pass / Band Reject (BPBR) cans. You can add these additional cans between the Tx and/or Rx and the duplexer. These cans will give additional isolation. Even if you can find just Pass or Notch cavities, tune them and put them in the correct place. With both of the above options, you are looking to add to the isolation between your transmitter and receiver. You'll find you'll do best by adding cans to your transmitter that notch side-band noise at your receiver's frequency. In other words, do what you can to insure your receiver is not hearing your own transmitter's sideband noise on it's input. Pass cans tuned to the TX frequency or NOTCH cavities tuned to your *RX* frequency placed in the transmit line are your best hope. Good luck, Scott Scott Zimmerman Amateur Radio Call N3XCC 474 Barnett Road Boswell, PA 15531
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Possible to purchase IRLP node numbers for AllStar nodes to thus enable IRLP connections on AllStar system?
whats bs ? if they want to use IRLP on there Allstar node then build the software to allow it to run with IRLP Just like the Echolink-IRLP guys did .. you cant run both at the same time but saves having more then 1 pc at the repeater site On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Kris Kirby k...@catonic.us wrote: On Wed, 8 Sep 2010, Kent Johnson wrote: Bcc to 2010 VoIP Conference List -Original Message- From: David Cameron (IRLP) [mailto:dcame...@irlp.net dcameron%40irlp.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 7:56 AM To: Kent Johnson Subject: Re: Possible to purchase IRLP node numbers for AllStar Kent, the short answer is no. I have had far too many complaints about people being brought into full duplex telephone calls and non-radio endpoints due to Allstar nodes on IRLP. The philosophy of IRLP is to keep radios on all ends of a link. Dave Cameron VE7LTD I call BS. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
4 cans will do it. Preamp may or may not be of any use depending on noise floor. Your bigger problem is all the noise that a mobile encounters these days. Sometimes it's tough to hear the repeater through all the crap that's out there. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: NORM KNAPP nkn...@twowayradio.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 3:04 AM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question Oh drat! I thought I was getting away with something :-) I am about to start on a 6m mastr ii with 1 meg split. It is a 110 watt cont duty station I am converting to a repeater. I don't think the exciter is a pll, way too many cans on the board and small icom About how much isolation will I need there? I don't know if I have a preamp for this one or not... But if I do, I would try to run it. 73 - Original Message - From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed Sep 08 23:08:38 2010 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question The PLL exciter is why you're having such good success running a 4-cavity duplexer. If you had a PM exciter, chances are you'd be experiencing desense. The PLL exciter produces about 22 dB less noise at 600 kHz offset, reducing the noise supression requirement of the duplexer by a like amount. See: http://www.repeater-builder.com/pdf/GE_Isolation_Curves.pdf The OP also mentioned he was using a preamp - that's not helping his situation either. Even with a good receiver he's probably on the edge of crunching it with only a 4-pack. Personally, I'd never run a preamp with nothing but a 4-cavity duplexer on 2m, but if it works for you, God bless... A Q202G gives more isolation than a WP639 from what I've seen/measured, in part because the cavities are larger diameter (I think they're 7 versus 5?). --- Jeff WN3A -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of NORM KNAPP Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 11:38 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question I got a set of 4 sinclair cans, like a Q202g on a GE mastr II running 100 watts with pll exciter and GE preamp with no desense. Antenna is roughly 300' away fed with LDF7-50A. Is this a miracle or typical? - Original Message - From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed Sep 08 20:10:44 2010 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question I'm not surprised- you're asking too much of a duplexer that has four 5 cans. According to my CommShop program, a duplexer with an 80 dB spec is more suitable with transmitter power in the 10-15 watt range, assuming a solid-state PA and a receiver sensitivity around 0.35 uV at 12 dB SINAD. On a 100 watt repeater, I'd expect something like a WP-642, which has six 8 cans. BTDT, got the T-shirt and mug... 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of RichardK Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:11 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question Good evening, our club has a Wacom WP-639 four can duplexer as part of our repeater system. Input Fq is 147.915 and Output Fq is 147.315. We have a 600kHz (+) offset. Very simply, our main problem is when we run the transmitter at full power 100 watts, there is a HUGE desense on the receive side of things. When we drop the transmitter power level to around 20-50 watts, the receive side opens WAY up to a large area where people can get into the repeater. As we begin to bring up the transmitter power, white noise begins to appear and the receive side starts to desense again. All the cables have been
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
WACOM hasn't been in business for some years now. Good luck contacting them directly! -Original Message- From: Richard Kelly Sent: Sep 8, 2010 9:18 PM To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question Good evening Eric, Maybe this is why when the trasmit power is dropped to the 20-50 watt range, the receive opens way up like it should. However, according to the spec sheets regarding the Wacom SP-639 Duplexer, it is rated for 200 watts. So, again, not sure what's going on. We will be trying other things such as adding a second ground rod outside the shack instead of the single one we use now. We will also try isolating the amp some more and replacing the coax feed line with hard line. Thank you very much. We will be contacting Wacom directly tomorrow. Rich Kelly, W2RRK
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
WACOM was bought out my Telewave and there tech support staff is very helpful… http://telewave.com/ You can cross reference your older Wacom cavities with their new product line at these links: http://www.telewave.com/pricelist/wacom.html http://www.telewave.com/pricelist/duplexers.html From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of larryjspamme...@teleport.com Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 11:04 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question WACOM hasn't been in business for some years now. Good luck contacting them directly! -Original Message- From: Richard Kelly Sent: Sep 8, 2010 9:18 PM To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:repeater-builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question Good evening Eric, Maybe this is why when the trasmit power is dropped to the 20-50 watt range, the receive opens way up like it should. However, according to the spec sheets regarding the Wacom SP-639 Duplexer, it is rated for 200 watts. So, again, not sure what's going on. We will be trying other things such as adding a second ground rod outside the shack instead of the single one we use now. We will also try isolating the amp some more and replacing the coax feed line with hard line. Thank you very much. We will be contacting Wacom directly tomorrow. Rich Kelly, W2RRK
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
From the Repeater-Builder website: WACOM and Remec WACOM started out as Waco Communications in Waco, Texas. At some point WACOM was bought by Remec, and in November of 2001 was sold to TX-RX. TX-RX has since been purchased by Bird Technologies Group. I've tried several times to contact them about some replacement cables, etc. for some used TX/RX VHF Repeater Duplexers, and have received no response except for one reply that said something like I've passed your request for information to our engineering group, who will be contacting you with the information you need. I never heard nything further, after several months. But several weeks ago, we were able to order a brand-new TX/RX 420-MHz 4-cavity duplexer from Bird Technologies for a 420-MHz link transceiver, although it hasn't arrived yet (it's a Special Order item). Larry -Original Message- From: Steven M Hodell Sent: Sep 9, 2010 11:10 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question WACOM was bought out my Telewave and there tech support staff is very helpful… http://telewave.com/ You can cross reference your older Wacom cavities with their new product line at these links: http://www.telewave.com/pricelist/wacom.html http://www.telewave.com/pricelist/duplexers.html From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of larryjspamme...@teleport.com Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 11:04 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question WACOM hasn't been in business for some years now. Good luck contacting them directly! -Original Message- From: Richard Kelly Sent: Sep 8, 2010 9:18 PM To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question Good evening Eric, Maybe this is why when the trasmit power is dropped to the 20-50 watt range, the receive opens way up like it should. However, according to the spec sheets regarding the Wacom SP-639 Duplexer, it is rated for 200 watts. So, again, not sure what's going on. We will be trying other things such as adding a second ground rod outside the shack instead of the single one we use now. We will also try isolating the amp some more and replacing the coax feed line with hard line. Thank you very much. We will be contacting Wacom directly tomorrow. Rich Kelly, W2RRK
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Possible to purchase IRLP node numbers for AllStar nodes to thus enable IRLP connections on AllStar system?
I have been an IRLP owner for I would say 10 years now .. when the node #'s were 3 numbers not 4 .. its a great service just like Echo-Link and now D-Star and others .. now to get D-Star and IRLP to play :) that would be fun ! On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 10:04 AM, Skip freebsd...@hotmail.com wrote: if they want to use IRLP on there Allstar node then build the software to allow it to run with IRLP Just like the Echolink-IRLP guys did .. you cant run both at the same time but saves having more then 1 pc at the repeater site Which is exactly what they did. Bottom line is if you want an IRLP node number you have to BUY an IRLP board. Don't take the bait the discussion isn't really here, Ken copied that email to a bunch of mailing lists for some reason. I have no idea where the original discussion is, this is the third list I've seen it on this A.M. 73's Skip WB6YMH
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 6 Meter Repeater
Not there yet. I don't even have a 6 meter rig. I am looking at getting the Yaesu FT-8900R for my first 6 meter. Any ways, I have built Master II Repeater, Micor Repeaters, and Lots of Mitrek Repeaters. So I am more familiar with Motorola than GE but I can handle both. Never built anything below 2 meter though. If I went with the Mitrek I would use two radios. Due to the isolation, use one for transmit and one for receive. My site would be a 60 foot tower on my dad's place in south central Missouri. He has one of the tallest spots in our county so it is a great location. So the tower is empty now and I can add sections to make it taller if I need to. From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of burkleoj Sent: Thursday, September 09, 2010 1:02 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: 6 Meter Repeater Charles, Welcome to the world of 6 Meter repeaters. They can be a lot of fun. In Missouri you are a little better off frequency and duplexer wise due to your 1.7 MHz split between transmit and receive frequencies. For radios it depends if you are a GE or Motorola person. If you are a GE person, the Mastr II is the repeater of choice, followed by a Exec II. If you are a Motorola person, the Micor or MSR2000 are the repeaters of choice, followed by the Mitrek. For a duplexer, any good commercial duplexer rated at 1 MHz spacing should do the trick. Andrew LDF Heliax for feedline, and my favorite antenna is a pair of DB Products loops, if you have enough tower space. If not a single loop will work pretty good. I tend to shy away from fiberglass (Stationmaster style) antennas for use on 6 Meter repeaters. Your worst enemy will be anything rusty or loose on the tower. If you are on a busy site near other radios and man made noise, you most likely will not need nor want to use a preamp on the receiver, but if you are out in the middle of nowhere on a solar site with a good quiet solar controller a preamp may be of benefit. Good Luck with your project. Joe - WA7JAW --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com , Charles Rader kc5...@... wrote: I am tossing around the idea of building a 6 meter repeater. This will have to be single site if I do this. What are you guys using for the repeater, duplexer, and antenna? Thanks, Charles KC5DGC image001.jpgimage002.jpg
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions - Thanks for the answers
I agree. The users would not even notice if you cut the power in half. One 2 meter repeater we took over was running on the 10 watt exciter with the amp bypassed for I don't know how long. The caretaker before we got it bypassed the amp because of desense or intermod or self oscillation issues, we used to have some high powered VHF paging transmitters close by that were exactly 600 Khz apart and no circulator, We are now blessed because they moved to 900. It was only when were replacing the functioning repeater we discovered the amp was bypassed, He never told anyone. tom On 9/7/2010 11:50 PM, Glenn (Butch) Kanvick wrote: Hi John. Sometimes you might not want to tel the others what you do to the repeater, then they cannot complain about any adjustments that you make. Butch, KE7FEL/r On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, W3ML w...@arrl.net mailto:w...@arrl.net wrote: Thanks to everyone for their comments and answers about my questions. I did turn it back so I am sure someone will say something. Once when a ham said he could not hit it, I drove over and sat outside his house with a 25 watt radio and brought it up with an S8 signal. It seems when a repeater goes up anywhere, someone will complain about something to do with it. Thanks and 73 John, W3ML
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions - Thanks for the answers
More likely he had the radio programmed wrong. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: MCH m...@nb.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 11:16 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions - Thanks for the answers His antenna could be in a null. It happens, as Murphy is a ham. Joe M.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Can't get Vertex VXR5000 to program
Read the repeater first NIMS: 100 200 300 400 700 800 Arrl Extra Class VE HAZ MAT- A O sent from my blackberry mobile device -Original Message- From: wspx472 wpxs...@gmail.com Sender: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 19:24:15 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Can't get Vertex VXR5000 to program I got this to work before but now, no joy. I am using CE8 software, have the correct cable, and an older DOS PC. I get either a box saying there was communication problems or it quickly flashes Done! but hasn't actually read the repeater. Is there some special trick I have forgotten?
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Can't get Vertex VXR5000 to program
the last time that happened to me I needed a new cable. - Original Message - From: wspx472 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:24 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Can't get Vertex VXR5000 to program I got this to work before but now, no joy. I am using CE8 software, have the correct cable, and an older DOS PC. I get either a box saying there was communication problems or it quickly flashes Done! but hasn't actually read the repeater. Is there some special trick I have forgotten?
Re: [Repeater-Builder] schematic and/or pinout diagram, Maxar 80, D51TSA4000BK
I know that they are available on the Batlabs site... try http://www.batlabs.com/nosynth.html and scroll down to the Moxy section. I believe that the pinouts for the Maxar, Maxar 80, and Moxy were all the same. George, KA3HSW / WQGJ From: KP3FT kp...@yahoo.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 1:58:15 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] schematic and/or pinout diagram, Maxar 80, D51TSA4000BK Hi all, Does anyone have a scanned schematic and/or a pinout diagram for a Maxar 80 lowband? I moving one that is presently at 49.520 MHz, up to 50.065 MHz, but have no idea what the pins are for PTT, etc. There is no microphone or other cables that came with the radio. Thanks for any help. Jeff KP3FT
Re: [Repeater-Builder] schematic and/or pinout diagram, Maxar 80, D51TSA4000BK
Hi George, Thanks for the reply. I had downloaded the diagram for the Moxy earlier from that website, but discovered the connector is different for the Maxar 80. Not sure if the pinout #s are the same though. I could spend the money and get a manual, but that is another 20 dollars and more time, plus I don't think I need much information really, since the new target frequency is not much higher than the original frequency and may not need retuning. It's for a beacon transmitter, so RX tuning isn't necessary. Jeff KP3FT --- On Wed, 9/8/10, George Henry ka3...@att.net wrote: From: George Henry ka3...@att.net Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] schematic and/or pinout diagram, Maxar 80, D51TSA4000BK To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 3:40 PM I know that they are available on the Batlabs site... try http://www.batlabs.com/nosynth.html and scroll down to the Moxy section. I believe that the pinouts for the Maxar, Maxar 80, and Moxy were all the same. George, KA3HSW / WQGJ From: KP3FT kp...@yahoo.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 1:58:15 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] schematic and/or pinout diagram, Maxar 80, D51TSA4000BK Hi all, Does anyone have a scanned schematic and/or a pinout diagram for a Maxar 80 lowband? I moving one that is presently at 49.520 MHz, up to 50.065 MHz, but have no idea what the pins are for PTT, etc. There is no microphone or other cables that came with the radio. Thanks for any help. Jeff KP3FT
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Can't get Vertex VXR5000 to program
That has happened to me twice and I read it then it would program. Sorry it didn't help you. NIMS: 100 200 300 400 700 800 Arrl Extra Class VE HAZ MAT- A O sent from my blackberry mobile device -Original Message- From: wspx472 wpxs...@gmail.com Sender: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 20:32:58 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Can't get Vertex VXR5000 to program That's what I was trying to do. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, Gary W. Gibbs ke5...@... wrote: Read the repeater first NIMS: 100 200 300 400 700 800 Arrl Extra Class VE HAZ MAT- A O sent from my blackberry mobile device -Original Message- From: wspx472 wpxs...@... Sender: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2010 19:24:15 To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Can't get Vertex VXR5000 to program I got this to work before but now, no joy. I am using CE8 software, have the correct cable, and an older DOS PC. I get either a box saying there was communication problems or it quickly flashes Done! but hasn't actually read the repeater. Is there some special trick I have forgotten?
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
What repeater are you running? Is it a GE Mastr II by chance? Andy From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RichardK Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:11 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question Good evening, our club has a Wacom WP-639 four can duplexer as part of our repeater system. Input Fq is 147.915 and Output Fq is 147.315. We have a 600kHz (+) offset. Very simply, our main problem is when we run the transmitter at full power 100 watts, there is a HUGE desense on the receive side of things. When we drop the transmitter power level to around 20-50 watts, the receive side opens WAY up to a large area where people can get into the repeater. As we begin to bring up the transmitter power, white noise begins to appear and the receive side starts to desense again. All the cables have been switched to double sheilded cables and all the same wavelength in length. We have the duplexer seperated sheilded from the transmitter preamp parts. We have not replaced the antenna feed coax with double sheilded coax yet. Antenna is a Hustler G7 atop a 55' mast. The duplexer was retuned just over 1 year ago. Any suggestions as to what we could look into next? Some of us believe the problem is with the tuning of the duplexer receive cans. Thank you very much.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
At 03:11 PM 9/8/2010, RichardK wrote: Good evening, our club has a Wacom WP-639 four can duplexer as part of our repeater system. Input Fq is 147.915 and Output Fq is 147.315. We have a 600kHz (+) offset. Very simply, our main problem is when we run the transmitter at full power 100 watts, there is a HUGE desense on the receive side of things. When we drop the transmitter power level to around 20-50 watts, the receive side opens WAY up to a large area where people can get into the repeater. As we begin to bring up the transmitter power, white noise begins to appear and the receive side starts to desense again. All the cables have been switched to double sheilded cables and all the same wavelength in length. We have the duplexer seperated sheilded from the transmitter preamp parts. We have not replaced the antenna feed coax with double sheilded coax yet. Antenna is a Hustler G7 atop a 55' mast. The duplexer was retuned just over 1 year ago. Any suggestions as to what we could look into next? Some of us believe the problem is with the tuning of the duplexer receive cans. Thank you very much. ---The WP-639 is spec'd at only 80 db of isolation @ a 600 kHz split. At 100 watts, that simply isn't enough to prevent desense. You need more isolation Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
At 04:38 PM 9/8/2010, Andrew Seybold wrote: What repeater are you running? Is it a GE Mastr II by chance? ---You hinting at the issue of Mastr II amp going spurious when the power is turned down too far? Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!
Re: [Repeater-Builder] schematic and/or pinout diagram, Maxar 80, D51TSA4000BK
Hi George, If you don't mind going to the trouble, that would be great. Just verifying if the pin number/functions are the same as the Moxy would be good because I already have the Moxy pinout. 73 Jeff KP3FT --- On Wed, 9/8/10, George Henry ka3...@att.net wrote: From: George Henry ka3...@att.net Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] schematic and/or pinout diagram, Maxar 80, D51TSA4000BK To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 7:45 PM I think I have a Maxar 80 manual at the office... I will check tomorrow morning. I think the only real difference in the connectors is that the Maxar 80 connector has 2 large pins at the top for power, while the Moxy has all pins the same size, and uses the first 2 in the 2nd row for power. All the metering, audio, and PTT pins are the same... I *THINK*... - Original Message - From: Jeff KP3FT kp...@yahoo.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 2:53 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] schematic and/or pinout diagram, Maxar 80, D51TSA4000BK Hi George, Thanks for the reply. I had downloaded the diagram for the Moxy earlier from that website, but discovered the connector is different for the Maxar 80. Not sure if the pinout #s are the same though. I could spend the money and get a manual, but that is another 20 dollars and more time, plus I don't think I need much information really, since the new target frequency is not much higher than the original frequency and may not need retuning. It's for a beacon transmitter, so RX tuning isn't necessary. Jeff KP3FT --- On Wed, 9/8/10, George Henry ka3...@att.net wrote: From: George Henry ka3...@att.net Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] schematic and/or pinout diagram, Maxar 80, D51TSA4000BK To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Wednesday, September 8, 2010, 3:40 PM I know that they are available on the Batlabs site... try http://www.batlabs.com/nosynth.html and scroll down to the Moxy section. I believe that the pinouts for the Maxar, Maxar 80, and Moxy were all the same. George, KA3HSW / WQGJ From: KP3FT kp...@yahoo.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed, September 8, 2010 1:58:15 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] schematic and/or pinout diagram, Maxar 80, D51TSA4000BK Hi all, Does anyone have a scanned schematic and/or a pinout diagram for a Maxar 80 lowband? I moving one that is presently at 49.520 MHz, up to 50.065 MHz, but have no idea what the pins are for PTT, etc. There is no microphone or other cables that came with the radio. Thanks for any help. Jeff KP3FT
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
i'm at work right now--I will get that info tomorrow!! Rich K W2RRK x To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com From: aseyb...@andrewseybold.com Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 16:38:49 -0700 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question What repeater are you running? Is it a GE Mastr II by chance? Andy From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RichardK Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:11 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question Good evening, our club has a Wacom WP-639 four can duplexer as part of our repeater system. Input Fq is 147.915 and Output Fq is 147.315. We have a 600kHz (+) offset. Very simply, our main problem is when we run the transmitter at full power 100 watts, there is a HUGE desense on the receive side of things. When we drop the transmitter power level to around 20-50 watts, the receive side opens WAY up to a large area where people can get into the repeater. As we begin to bring up the transmitter power, white noise begins to appear and the receive side starts to desense again. All the cables have been switched to double sheilded cables and all the same wavelength in length. We have the duplexer seperated sheilded from the transmitter preamp parts. We have not replaced the antenna feed coax with double sheilded coax yet. Antenna is a Hustler G7 atop a 55' mast. The duplexer was retuned just over 1 year ago. Any suggestions as to what we could look into next? Some of us believe the problem is with the tuning of the duplexer receive cans. Thank you very much.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
On 9/8/2010 6:11 PM, RichardK wrote: Good evening, our club has a Wacom WP-639 four can duplexer as part of our repeater system. Input Fq is 147.915 and Output Fq is 147.315. We have a 600kHz (+) offset. Very simply, our main problem is when we run the transmitter at full power 100 watts, there is a HUGE desense on the receive side of things. When we drop the transmitter power level to around 20-50 watts, the receive side opens WAY up to a large area where people can get into the repeater. As we begin to bring up the transmitter power, white noise begins to appear and the receive side starts to desense again. All the cables have been switched to double sheilded cables and all the same wavelength in length. We have the duplexer seperated sheilded from the transmitter preamp parts. We have not replaced the antenna feed coax with double sheilded coax yet. Antenna is a Hustler G7 atop a 55' mast. The duplexer was retuned just over 1 year ago. Any suggestions as to what we could look into next? Some of us believe the problem is with the tuning of the duplexer receive cans. Thank you very much. The Wacom WP-639 is insufficient for 100 solid state watts, unless you run a GE MASTR II PLL exciter and no preamp. You will either need to replace the duplexer with another unit capable of properly isolating 100 solid state watts, add additional filters, change to a less noisy transmitter and amplifier (tubes are better - no I'm not kidding). Kevin Custer - W3KKC
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
I'm not surprised- you're asking too much of a duplexer that has four 5 cans. According to my CommShop program, a duplexer with an 80 dB spec is more suitable with transmitter power in the 10-15 watt range, assuming a solid-state PA and a receiver sensitivity around 0.35 uV at 12 dB SINAD. On a 100 watt repeater, I'd expect something like a WP-642, which has six 8 cans. BTDT, got the T-shirt and mug... 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RichardK Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:11 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question Good evening, our club has a Wacom WP-639 four can duplexer as part of our repeater system. Input Fq is 147.915 and Output Fq is 147.315. We have a 600kHz (+) offset. Very simply, our main problem is when we run the transmitter at full power 100 watts, there is a HUGE desense on the receive side of things. When we drop the transmitter power level to around 20-50 watts, the receive side opens WAY up to a large area where people can get into the repeater. As we begin to bring up the transmitter power, white noise begins to appear and the receive side starts to desense again. All the cables have been switched to double sheilded cables and all the same wavelength in length. We have the duplexer seperated sheilded from the transmitter preamp parts. We have not replaced the antenna feed coax with double sheilded coax yet. Antenna is a Hustler G7 atop a 55' mast. The duplexer was retuned just over 1 year ago. Any suggestions as to what we could look into next? Some of us believe the problem is with the tuning of the duplexer receive cans. Thank you very much.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
Good evening Eric, Maybe this is why when the trasmit power is dropped to the 20-50 watt range, the receive opens way up like it should. However, according to the spec sheets regarding the Wacom SP-639 Duplexer, it is rated for 200 watts. So, again, not sure what's going on. We will be trying other things such as adding a second ground rod outside the shack instead of the single one we use now. We will also try isolating the amp some more and replacing the coax feed line with hard line. Thank you very much. We will be contacting Wacom directly tomorrow. Rich Kelly, W2RRK x To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com From: wb6...@verizon.net Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 18:10:44 -0700 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question I'm not surprised- you're asking too much of a duplexer that has four 5 cans. According to my CommShop program, a duplexer with an 80 dB spec is more suitable with transmitter power in the 10-15 watt range, assuming a solid-state PA and a receiver sensitivity around 0.35 uV at 12 dB SINAD. On a 100 watt repeater, I'd expect something like a WP-642, which has six 8 cans. BTDT, got the T-shirt and mug... 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RichardK Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:11 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question Good evening, our club has a Wacom WP-639 four can duplexer as part of our repeater system. Input Fq is 147.915 and Output Fq is 147.315. We have a 600kHz (+) offset. Very simply, our main problem is when we run the transmitter at full power 100 watts, there is a HUGE desense on the receive side of things. When we drop the transmitter power level to around 20-50 watts, the receive side opens WAY up to a large area where people can get into the repeater. As we begin to bring up the transmitter power, white noise begins to appear and the receive side starts to desense again. All the cables have been switched to double sheilded cables and all the same wavelength in length. We have the duplexer seperated sheilded from the transmitter preamp parts. We have not replaced the antenna feed coax with double sheilded coax yet. Antenna is a Hustler G7 atop a 55' mast. The duplexer was retuned just over 1 year ago. Any suggestions as to what we could look into next? Some of us believe the problem is with the tuning of the duplexer receive cans. Thank you very much. Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
At 06:18 PM 9/8/2010, Richard Kelly wrote: We will be trying other things such as adding a second ground rod outside the shack instead of the single one we use now. We will also try isolating the amp some more and replacing the coax feed line with hard line. --That is a complete waste of time as that is not the problem. Your duplexer simply cannot provide enough isolation for the power level you're trying to run. More grounding and replacing coax with hardline (unless your coax isn't doubleshield to start with) will buy you nothing. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
Rich, Eric speaks the truth. The will HANDLE 200 watts without arcing, etc, but do not provide nearly enough isolation at 600 KHz spacing to handle 100 watts. For a 35 watt transmitter, I run cans that provide around 96 dB of isolation. the 85 dB your cans can provide just ain't gonna cut it. 73, Mike WM4B _ From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard Kelly Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 9:19 PM To: repeater-builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question Good evening Eric, Maybe this is why when the trasmit power is dropped to the 20-50 watt range, the receive opens way up like it should. However, according to the spec sheets regarding the Wacom SP-639 Duplexer, it is rated for 200 watts. So, again, not sure what's going on. We will be trying other things such as adding a second ground rod outside the shack instead of the single one we use now. We will also try isolating the amp some more and replacing the coax feed line with hard line. Thank you very much. We will be contacting Wacom directly tomorrow. Rich Kelly, W2RRK x To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com From: wb6...@verizon.net Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 18:10:44 -0700 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question I'm not surprised- you're asking too much of a duplexer that has four 5 cans. According to my CommShop program, a duplexer with an 80 dB spec is more suitable with transmitter power in the 10-15 watt range, assuming a solid-state PA and a receiver sensitivity around 0.35 uV at 12 dB SINAD. On a 100 watt repeater, I'd expect something like a WP-642, which has six 8 cans. BTDT, got the T-shirt and mug... 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RichardK Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:11 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question Good evening, our club has a Wacom WP-639 four can duplexer as part of our repeater system. Input Fq is 147.915 and Output Fq is 147.315. We have a 600kHz (+) offset. Very simply, our main problem is when we run the transmitter at full power 100 watts, there is a HUGE desense on the receive side of things. When we drop the transmitter power level to around 20-50 watts, the receive side opens WAY up to a large area where people can get into the repeater. As we begin to bring up the transmitter power, white noise begins to appear and the receive side starts to desense again. All the cables have been switched to double sheilded cables and all the same wavelength in length. We have the duplexer seperated sheilded from the transmitter preamp parts. We have not replaced the antenna feed coax with double sheilded coax yet. Antenna is a Hustler G7 atop a 55' mast. The duplexer was retuned just over 1 year ago. Any suggestions as to what we could look into next? Some of us believe the problem is with the tuning of the duplexer receive cans. Thank you very much. Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
I'm afraid your wasting your time. According to the document for the Wacom 639 duplexer, this is what it says: MIN. FREQ. SPACING: 600 KHz POWER: TO 200 WATTS Notice that it says TO 200 watts. That would be if you were at 2MHz of spacing or more. You are only at 600KHz spacing, so you power level will be much less. I know it's not what you want to hear, but I believe you have the wrong duplexer for a 100 watt solid state repeater. 73, Joe, K1ike On 9/8/2010 9:18 PM, Richard Kelly wrote: Good evening Eric, Maybe this is why when the trasmit power is dropped to the 20-50 watt range, the receive opens way up like it should. However, according to the spec sheets regarding the Wacom SP-639 Duplexer, it is rated for 200 watts. So, again, not sure what's going on. We will be trying other things such as adding a second ground rod outside the shack instead of the single one we use now. We will also try isolating the amp some more and replacing the coax feed line with hard line. Thank you very much. We will be contacting Wacom directly tomorrow. Rich Kelly, W2RRK
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
Hello again Ken, Thank you for replying with more info, we appreciate it. My email address if you want to get off this posting is w2...@arrl.net How would we go about providing MORE isolation than what we have done so far? Rich Kelly W2RRK x To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com From: ah...@ah6le.net Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2010 18:24:41 -0700 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question At 06:18 PM 9/8/2010, Richard Kelly wrote: We will be trying other things such as adding a second ground rod outside the shack instead of the single one we use now. We will also try isolating the amp some more and replacing the coax feed line with hard line. --That is a complete waste of time as that is not the problem. Your duplexer simply cannot provide enough isolation for the power level you're trying to run. More grounding and replacing coax with hardline (unless your coax isn't doubleshield to start with) will buy you nothing. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em! Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
At 9/8/2010 18:24, you wrote: At 06:18 PM 9/8/2010, Richard Kelly wrote: We will be trying other things such as adding a second ground rod outside the shack instead of the single one we use now. We will also try isolating the amp some more and replacing the coax feed line with hard line. --That is a complete waste of time as that is not the problem. Your duplexer simply cannot provide enough isolation for the power level you're trying to run. More grounding and replacing coax with hardline (unless your coax isn't doubleshield to start with) will buy you nothing. Replacing copper-braided coax with RG-214 or hardline is hardly a waste of time. The duplexer isolation may not be quite enough, but that can be easily remedied by adding an extra pass cavity to the TX. Just another 10 to 15 dB of TX noise suppression is likely all you need. RG-8, RG-213 or LMR-400 antenna feed, OTOH, will make any duplexer moot due to all the desense it will generate, sooner or later. Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
I got a set of 4 sinclair cans, like a Q202g on a GE mastr II running 100 watts with pll exciter and GE preamp with no desense. Antenna is roughly 300' away fed with LDF7-50A. Is this a miracle or typical? - Original Message - From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed Sep 08 20:10:44 2010 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question I'm not surprised- you're asking too much of a duplexer that has four 5 cans. According to my CommShop program, a duplexer with an 80 dB spec is more suitable with transmitter power in the 10-15 watt range, assuming a solid-state PA and a receiver sensitivity around 0.35 uV at 12 dB SINAD. On a 100 watt repeater, I'd expect something like a WP-642, which has six 8 cans. BTDT, got the T-shirt and mug... 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of RichardK Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:11 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question Good evening, our club has a Wacom WP-639 four can duplexer as part of our repeater system. Input Fq is 147.915 and Output Fq is 147.315. We have a 600kHz (+) offset. Very simply, our main problem is when we run the transmitter at full power 100 watts, there is a HUGE desense on the receive side of things. When we drop the transmitter power level to around 20-50 watts, the receive side opens WAY up to a large area where people can get into the repeater. As we begin to bring up the transmitter power, white noise begins to appear and the receive side starts to desense again. All the cables have been switched to double sheilded cables and all the same wavelength in length. We have the duplexer seperated sheilded from the transmitter preamp parts. We have not replaced the antenna feed coax with double sheilded coax yet. Antenna is a Hustler G7 atop a 55' mast. The duplexer was retuned just over 1 year ago. Any suggestions as to what we could look into next? Some of us believe the problem is with the tuning of the duplexer receive cans. Thank you very much.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
Rich, The short answer is: You need to find a bigger duplexer. Four 8 cans would work well such as a Wacom WP-641. You could simply call and order one if Wacom was still in business. (RIP) Unfortunately Tx/Rx bought them years ago for the name and to quash competition. They can be found occasionally for around $600 or so on the used market. Other alternatives are as follows: 1) You can use two antennas and split the 639 duplexer so that 2 cans are in series between the TX and the TX antenna, and the other two are in series between the RX and the RX antenna. Terry WX3M a list member is doing this with VERY good results on one of his VHF machines. Of course this involves the expense of additional feedline and a second antenna. I think you said you had this machine on an 80' mast. 50' or so of vertical isolation coupled with the additional isolation of splitting the duplexer *may* be enough isolation to get rid of all the desense. TX goes on bottom, RX on top. 2) Buy additional Band Pass / Band Reject (BPBR) cans. You can add these additional cans between the Tx and/or Rx and the duplexer. These cans will give additional isolation. Even if you can find just Pass or Notch cavities, tune them and put them in the correct place. With both of the above options, you are looking to add to the isolation between your transmitter and receiver. You'll find you'll do best by adding cans to your transmitter that notch side-band noise at your receiver's frequency. In other words, do what you can to insure your receiver is not hearing your own transmitter's sideband noise on it's input. Pass cans tuned to the TX frequency or NOTCH cavities tuned to your *RX* frequency placed in the transmit line are your best hope. Good luck, Scott Scott Zimmerman Amateur Radio Call N3XCC 474 Barnett Road Boswell, PA 15531 On 9/8/2010 9:52 PM, Richard Kelly wrote: Hello again Ken, Thank you for replying with more info, we appreciate it. My email address if you want to get off this posting is w2...@arrl.net mailto:w2...@arrl.net How would we go about providing MORE isolation than what we have done so far? Rich Kelly W2RRK
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
At 08:21 PM 9/8/2010, n...@no6b.com wrote: Replacing copper-braided coax with RG-214 or hardline is hardly a waste of time. --Notice I said: More grounding and replacing coax with hardline (unless your coax isn't doubleshield to start with) will buy you nothing. I was assuming he wasn't running something along the lines of RG-8 but I did think to qualify that. Ken -- President and CTO - Arcom Communications Makers of repeater controllers and accessories. http://www.arcomcontrollers.com/ Authorized Dealers for Kenwood and Telewave and we offer complete repeater packages! AH6LE/R - IRLP Node 3000 http://www.irlp.net We don't just make 'em. We use 'em!
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question
The PLL exciter is why you're having such good success running a 4-cavity duplexer. If you had a PM exciter, chances are you'd be experiencing desense. The PLL exciter produces about 22 dB less noise at 600 kHz offset, reducing the noise supression requirement of the duplexer by a like amount. See: http://www.repeater-builder.com/pdf/GE_Isolation_Curves.pdf The OP also mentioned he was using a preamp - that's not helping his situation either. Even with a good receiver he's probably on the edge of crunching it with only a 4-pack. Personally, I'd never run a preamp with nothing but a 4-cavity duplexer on 2m, but if it works for you, God bless... A Q202G gives more isolation than a WP639 from what I've seen/measured, in part because the cavities are larger diameter (I think they're 7 versus 5?). --- Jeff WN3A -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of NORM KNAPP Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 11:38 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question I got a set of 4 sinclair cans, like a Q202g on a GE mastr II running 100 watts with pll exciter and GE preamp with no desense. Antenna is roughly 300' away fed with LDF7-50A. Is this a miracle or typical? - Original Message - From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Wed Sep 08 20:10:44 2010 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question I'm not surprised- you're asking too much of a duplexer that has four 5 cans. According to my CommShop program, a duplexer with an 80 dB spec is more suitable with transmitter power in the 10-15 watt range, assuming a solid-state PA and a receiver sensitivity around 0.35 uV at 12 dB SINAD. On a 100 watt repeater, I'd expect something like a WP-642, which has six 8 cans. BTDT, got the T-shirt and mug... 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of RichardK Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 3:11 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Wacom WP-639 Duplexer question Good evening, our club has a Wacom WP-639 four can duplexer as part of our repeater system. Input Fq is 147.915 and Output Fq is 147.315. We have a 600kHz (+) offset. Very simply, our main problem is when we run the transmitter at full power 100 watts, there is a HUGE desense on the receive side of things. When we drop the transmitter power level to around 20-50 watts, the receive side opens WAY up to a large area where people can get into the repeater. As we begin to bring up the transmitter power, white noise begins to appear and the receive side starts to desense again. All the cables have been switched to double sheilded cables and all the same wavelength in length. We have the duplexer seperated sheilded from the transmitter preamp parts. We have not replaced the antenna feed coax with double sheilded coax yet. Antenna is a Hustler G7 atop a 55' mast. The duplexer was retuned just over 1 year ago. Any suggestions as to what we could look into next? Some of us believe the problem is with the tuning of the duplexer receive cans. Thank you very much.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Possible to purchase IRLP node numbers for AllStar nodes to thus enable IRLP connections on AllStar system?
On Wed, 8 Sep 2010, Kent Johnson wrote: Bcc to 2010 VoIP Conference List -Original Message- From: David Cameron (IRLP) [mailto:dcame...@irlp.net] Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 7:56 AM To: Kent Johnson Subject: Re: Possible to purchase IRLP node numbers for AllStar Kent, the short answer is no. I have had far too many complaints about people being brought into full duplex telephone calls and non-radio endpoints due to Allstar nodes on IRLP. The philosophy of IRLP is to keep radios on all ends of a link. Dave Cameron VE7LTD I call BS. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity
Sinad is done with a 1000 Hz tone at 3KHz deviation and requires a meter that can notch out the 1K tone and measure the remaining noise. 20dBQ is done with no modulation 2 Vac of sq noise w/ no carrier then generate unmodulated carrier till the ACVM indicates 0.2 Vac A major difference in the two usually meant an alignment issue or some sort of problem in the back end of the receiver. Is the meter 4 circuit showing that the channel element is on frequency, and have you checked the alignment of the IF? Proponets of the Sinad method claimed that their way of doing the alignment would actually improve the overall sensitivity since the radio was being tested while receiving audio. Milt N3LTQ - Original Message - From: Tim Sawyer To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity I'm getting about 0.35 for 12 db SINAD. But that looks about 10 db quieting to me. What I typically do is open the squelch with no signal and set the volume to 2 Vac then crank up the signal to 0.2 vac. Isn't that 20 db, or am I missing something? -- Tim :wq On Sep 6, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Eric Lemmon wrote: spec is 0.5 uV without a preamp and 0.25 uV with a preamp, when using the 20 dB quieting method, and 0.35 and 0.175 respectively when using the 1 2 dB SINAD method
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity
Yes, meter 4 shows the channel element is on frequency. If by IF alignment you mean injecting 11.7 Mhz and setting meter 4 to zero, yes I checked that. It was not far off. -- Tim :wq On Sep 7, 2010, at 9:11 AM, Milt wrote: Is the meter 4 circuit showing that the channel element is on frequency, and have you checked the alignment of the IF?
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Moto Micor 123.0 Vibrasender
At 09:30 AM 09/07/10, you wrote: Anyone help me out with this part? Terry wx3m.te...@gmail.com What model number? There are several different physical packages. If you don't know the reed number, can you tell us what radio? Mike WA6ILQ
RE: [Repeater-Builder] To DVP or not to DVP
If you have a nearby first adjacent (especially at 20 kHz), you might be better off with a standard receiver. Might be worth measuring it and comparing it against a standard receiver - I'd be curious to hear the results as I've never done that test myself. --- Jeff WN3A -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sawyer Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 5:45 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] To DVP or not to DVP Hmmm... I didn't realize the DVP has a wider IF. I gather DVP requires up to 6 Khz of audio. So now I'm thinking that this receiver is not suitable for my busy hill (Santiago Peak). What do you think? -- Tim :wq On Sep 6, 2010, at 8:17 PM, Jeff DePolo wrote: The SP docs show it being a DVP station. DVP receivers have wider (and flatter) IF filtering than standard Micor Sensitron receivers. They need a flatter IF passband to decode DVP properly. I'm wondering if that's why the 20 dBQ reading comes out higher than normal.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions - Thanks for the answers
His antenna could be in a null. It happens, as Murphy is a ham. Joe M. W3ML wrote: Thanks to everyone for their comments and answers about my questions. I did turn it back so I am sure someone will say something. Once when a ham said he could not hit it, I drove over and sat outside his house with a 25 watt radio and brought it up with an S8 signal. It seems when a repeater goes up anywhere, someone will complain about something to do with it. Thanks and 73 John, W3ML Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions - Thanks for the answers
Hi John. Sometimes you might not want to tel the others what you do to the repeater, then they cannot complain about any adjustments that you make. Butch, KE7FEL/r On Tue, Sep 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, W3ML w...@arrl.net wrote: Thanks to everyone for their comments and answers about my questions. I did turn it back so I am sure someone will say something. Once when a ham said he could not hit it, I drove over and sat outside his house with a 25 watt radio and brought it up with an S8 signal. It seems when a repeater goes up anywhere, someone will complain about something to do with it. Thanks and 73 John, W3ML
Re: [Repeater-Builder] no power out of duplexer
Sounds like a bad cable/connector. Are there any adaptors or elbows? They could be suspect. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: W3ML w...@arrl.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 9:37 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] no power out of duplexer Hi, First, let me say that we are still new to the repeater business and learning as we go. This the first time in 30 ham years that I have been involved with a VHF repeater system. Our repeater was working okay at 80 watts out of GE Mastr II and 60 watts out of Duplexer. When I turn the power up to 100 out of radio and 80 out of duplexer it seemed to be working okay. But, now a few hours later there is no power coming out of duplexer at all. Radio still shows power coming out. Nothing was touch on the duplexer. Any ideas? 73 John, W3ML
Re: [Repeater-Builder] no power out of duplexer
What make and model is the duplexer? I know of one instance that the loop inside the duplexer can come disconnected due to a bad solder joint, but can't remember what one it was. A search on this list should find it, as it was discussed recently. The first thing would be to check all connections for tightness. Do not over-tighten the connections! Just make sure that they are snug. If your knuckles are turning white, your tightening too much. N connectors need to be snug, UHF connectors need to be a little tighter, but not cranked down tight, but not until they break. What you can do is take the connecting cables off the transmit side cans and test the first one for power out. Then connect the next can in series and see if there is output from that can. This process should isolate the bad can(s). Disconnect the receiver while doing this just to be safe. MARK all the cables as to where they came from. Do not mix them up. It may be a bad cable, so if you find a problem make sure that it is not the interconnecting cable. If all the cans and cables test OK, their may be a problem on the receive side of the duplexer. Keep it simple, don't fool with the cans unless you prove that one is bad. This process is to eliminate the obvious before you go tinkering with the duplexer. Check the tightness of connections first, cables second, and lastly the cans. The process above will help you isolate the bad can so you hopefully only have to tinker with one can. The real fix would involve some test equipment. What do you have available? Service monitor, tracking generator? Others will probably have some good suggestions, these ideas are just off the top of my head. On 9/6/2010 9:37 AM, W3ML wrote: Hi, First, let me say that we are still new to the repeater business and learning as we go. This the first time in 30 ham years that I have been involved with a VHF repeater system. Our repeater was working okay at 80 watts out of GE Mastr II and 60 watts out of Duplexer. When I turn the power up to 100 out of radio and 80 out of duplexer it seemed to be working okay. But, now a few hours later there is no power coming out of duplexer at all. Radio still shows power coming out. Nothing was touch on the duplexer. Any ideas? 73 John, W3ML
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
WACOM specs their 6 cavity pass-reject cans at 2.2dB insertion loss. 2.0 dB down from 100 watts is 63 watts, so you're doing good. Remember, 3dB is going to take your power down 50%. 73, Mike WM4B From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of W3ML Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 10:55 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions Thanks Joe. We did most of those and then found the problem. The T-connector center pin had broken off when we apparently hooked up some test equipment and did not notice it. I still have one question though. Is it normal to have 100 watts coming out of radio and only 70 watts coming out of duplexer? Wacom 6 can type duplexer. That seems to be quite a loss. Again I appreciate all the help. 73 John, W3ML --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com , Joe k1ike_m...@... wrote: What make and model is the duplexer? I know of one instance that the loop inside the duplexer can come disconnected due to a bad solder joint, but can't remember what one it was. A search on this list should find it, as it was discussed recently. The first thing would be to check all connections for tightness. Do not over-tighten the connections! Just make sure that they are snug. If your knuckles are turning white, your tightening too much. N connectors need to be snug, UHF connectors need to be a little tighter, but not cranked down tight, but not until they break. What you can do is take the connecting cables off the transmit side cans and test the first one for power out. Then connect the next can in series and see if there is output from that can. This process should isolate the bad can(s). Disconnect the receiver while doing this just to be safe. MARK all the cables as to where they came from. Do not mix them up. It may be a bad cable, so if you find a problem make sure that it is not the interconnecting cable. If all the cans and cables test OK, their may be a problem on the receive side of the duplexer. Keep it simple, don't fool with the cans unless you prove that one is bad. This process is to eliminate the obvious before you go tinkering with the duplexer. Check the tightness of connections first, cables second, and lastly the cans. The process above will help you isolate the bad can so you hopefully only have to tinker with one can. The real fix would involve some test equipment. What do you have available? Service monitor, tracking generator? Others will probably have some good suggestions, these ideas are just off the top of my head. On 9/6/2010 9:37 AM, W3ML wrote: Hi, First, let me say that we are still new to the repeater business and learning as we go. This the first time in 30 ham years that I have been involved with a VHF repeater system. Our repeater was working okay at 80 watts out of GE Mastr II and 60 watts out of Duplexer. When I turn the power up to 100 out of radio and 80 out of duplexer it seemed to be working okay. But, now a few hours later there is no power coming out of duplexer at all. Radio still shows power coming out. Nothing was touch on the duplexer. Any ideas? 73 John, W3ML
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
I agree with Mike. 100 watts in, 70 watts out is about 1.5dB loss. That looks very good for a Wacom. What is the model of your duplexer? The WP-643 had a single bandpass can on each side that might change the estimated loss. Did you happen to look at the reflected power when you took the forward power readings? If you had reflected power, it could throw the forward reading off. What kind of a watt meter did you use? As long as you have no desense, I'd leave it alone. 73, Joe, K1ike On 9/6/2010 11:28 AM, Mike Besemer (WM4B) wrote: WACOM specs their 6 cavity pass-reject cans at 2.2dB insertion loss. 2.0 dB down from 100 watts is 63 watts, so you’re doing good. Remember, 3dB is going to take your power down 50%. 73, Mike WM4B *From:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *W3ML *Sent:* Monday, September 06, 2010 10:55 AM *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com *Subject:* [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions Thanks Joe. We did most of those and then found the problem. The T-connector center pin had broken off when we apparently hooked up some test equipment and did not notice it. I still have one question though. Is it normal to have 100 watts coming out of radio and only 70 watts coming out of duplexer? Wacom 6 can type duplexer. That seems to be quite a loss. Again I appreciate all the help. 73 John, W3ML Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: repeater-builder-dig...@yahoogroups.com repeater-builder-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: repeater-builder-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Unidentified part in msf5000 vhf station
Its size and location in the RF path suggests that it is an optional preselector. It should have five adjustment screws with locknuts, and bear the designation TFD1011 or TFD1012. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of wb5oxq Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 8:11 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Unidentified part in msf5000 vhf station I just aquired a second msf5000 to make a 2 meter repeater our of and it has a part not present in the first station. I suspect it could be a rx preamp due to the fact it has coax input and output and it is wired in series between the duplexer rx port and the receiver rf input. It appears to be an aluminum block rack mounted just below the power supply and is about 1.5 thick and about 8 or 9 inches wide. I did not see any electrical connections so if it is a preamp it must get power from the coax into the receiver. I am not familiar with this device. My other station did not have this part. Perhapps it is sopme kind of filter? Both stations are the digital capable models which I program with the rib and old laptop. Any ideas please! Pictures on request if needed.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
Depending on the frequency seperation it sounds like it is in the ball park. Maybe even not enough loss. Quick in the head math short cut is that 1 db is about 25%. That would give you 75 watts out of the duplexer for 100 watts in. If it is 3 db, that is half power or 50 watts out for 100 in. Any loss between the two numbers could be correct. Again depending on the frequency seperation and isolation in DB, you can look for 1/2 to 1 DB per cavity. That is for each side. So 3 cans per side would be from 1.5 db to 3 db loss in the transmitt side and the same for the receive side. - Original Message From: W3ML w...@arrl.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, September 6, 2010 10:54:37 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions Thanks Joe. We did most of those and then found the problem. The T-connector center pin had broken off when we apparently hooked up some test equipment and did not notice it. I still have one question though. Is it normal to have 100 watts coming out of radio and only 70 watts coming out of duplexer? Wacom 6 can type duplexer. That seems to be quite a loss. Again I appreciate all the help. 73 John, W3ML
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity
Tim, Please confirm that you measured the sensitivity as 0.72 millivolts, or 720 uV- about 2400 times worse than the 0.3 uV you expect. Such a huge disparity points to a failed transistor or a shorted capacitor on the receive board. Perhaps your next step is to perform voltage checks and compare your readings to those in the manual. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sawyer Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 10:11 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity I have a Micor base that was manufactured in the ham band. Model is C64RXB3196A-SP71. The receiver model number is TRE1241A-SP10 (420-450 Mhz). It came with 4 channels all tuned up and on frequency in the ham band. But the receiver is sensitivity is .72 mv for 20 db quieting on the best channel and .9 on the worst. I went through the alignment procedure and could not make any improvement. Obviously this is not meeting the .5 spec and I was expecting more like .3 or so. So my questions is what should I do to troubleshoot this? Is there some common Micor receiver failure parts or areas that I should be looking into? -- Tim :wq
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity
Eric, It's 0.72 microvolts. Not totally dead, just a bit numb. -- Tim :wq On Sep 6, 2010, at 10:24 AM, Eric Lemmon wrote: Please confirm that you measured the sensitivity as 0.72 millivolts, or 720 uV
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity
There are shield covers on the RX board that need to be pulled off and have the ground pins cleaned. I watched a Motorola service shop do that and the sensitivity came back. He turned to me and said you'd have been forever figuring that one out. Don't ask me why, but I saw it work. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Tim Sawyer tisaw...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 1:11 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity I have a Micor base that was manufactured in the ham band. Model is C64RXB3196A-SP71. The receiver model number is TRE1241A-SP10 (420-450 Mhz). It came with 4 channels all tuned up and on frequency in the ham band. But the receiver is sensitivity is .72 mv for 20 db quieting on the best channel and .9 on the worst. I went through the alignment procedure and could not make any improvement. Obviously this is not meeting the .5 spec and I was expecting more like .3 or so. So my questions is what should I do to troubleshoot this? Is there some common Micor receiver failure parts or areas that I should be looking into? -- Tim :wq
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity
Ah, what a difference a factor of 1,000 makes! Okay, the manual spec is 0.5 uV without a preamp and 0.25 uV with a preamp, when using the 20 dB quieting method, and 0.35 and 0.175 respectively when using the 12 dB SINAD method. Try connecting your service monitor directly to the input jack on the preselector and repeat the sensitivity measurement. If it is greatly improved, start looking at cables and connectors. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sawyer Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 10:29 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity Eric, It's 0.72 microvolts. Not totally dead, just a bit numb. -- Tim :wq On Sep 6, 2010, at 10:24 AM, Eric Lemmon wrote: Please confirm that you measured the sensitivity as 0.72 millivolts, or 720 uV
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity
Hello Tim. I think the specs on your Micor are 402-430, But I could be wrong. What freq was it crystalled on before you retuned it? Also what is the frequency you tuned it on now? That gives us better information as to where it was and where you tuned it to. Butch, KE7FEL/r On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 11:11 AM, Tim Sawyer tisaw...@gmail.com wrote: I have a Micor base that was manufactured in the ham band. Model is C64RXB3196A-SP71. The receiver model number is TRE1241A-SP10 (420-450 Mhz). It came with 4 channels all tuned up and on frequency in the ham band. But the receiver is sensitivity is .72 mv for 20 db quieting on the best channel and .9 on the worst. I went through the alignment procedure and could not make any improvement. Obviously this is not meeting the .5 spec and I was expecting more like .3 or so. So my questions is what should I do to troubleshoot this? Is there some common Micor receiver failure parts or areas that I should be looking into? -- Tim :wq
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity
Stuff to try: 1. Verify that the LO multiplier chain is peaked correctly. I've seen a bunch of these that exhibit this symptom that had mistuned LO chains. 2. Feed the test signal into the RX directly. If you see good sensitivity, you know where to looks ;-) 3. Take each of the bottom cover shields off in order and clean the tabs. Put them back on and run a small screwdriver tip every 1/8 or so shorting the can to its ground. If you see an improvement get out an iron and solder it. I don't like doing this, but I haven't found an alternative that works. On 9/6/2010 12:11 PM, Tim Sawyer wrote: I have a Micor base that was manufactured in the ham band. Model is C64RXB3196A-SP71. The receiver model number is TRE1241A-SP10 (420-450 Mhz). It came with 4 channels all tuned up and on frequency in the ham band. But the receiver is sensitivity is .72 mv for 20 db quieting on the best channel and .9 on the worst. I went through the alignment procedure and could not make any improvement. Obviously this is not meeting the .5 spec and I was expecting more like .3 or so. So my questions is what should I do to troubleshoot this? Is there some common Micor receiver failure parts or areas that I should be looking into? -- Tim -- mailto:o...@ozindfw.net Oz POB 93167 Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport)
Re: [Repeater-Builder] SIMPLEX software
Yes, I have used it when I need a simplex station John, K4AG gabriel wrote: Hello Just for stats, does anyone use the SIMPLEX software by F6DQM to manage its repeater ? Gab
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity
I'm getting about 0.35 for 12 db SINAD. But that looks about 10 db quieting to me. What I typically do is open the squelch with no signal and set the volume to 2 Vac then crank up the signal to 0.2 vac. Isn't that 20 db, or am I missing something? -- Tim :wq On Sep 6, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Eric Lemmon wrote: spec is 0.5 uV without a preamp and 0.25 uV with a preamp, when using the 20 dB quieting method, and 0.35 and 0.175 respectively when using the 12 dB SINAD method
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity
2V AC down to .2 v. AC is 20 DB quieting John VE3AMZ - Original Message - From: Tim Sawyer To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity I'm getting about 0.35 for 12 db SINAD. But that looks about 10 db quieting to me. What I typically do is open the squelch with no signal and set the volume to 2 Vac then crank up the signal to 0.2 vac. Isn't that 20 db, or am I missing something? -- Tim :wq On Sep 6, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Eric Lemmon wrote: spec is 0.5 uV without a preamp and 0.25 uV with a preamp, when using the 20 dB quieting method, and 0.35 and 0.175 respectively when using the 12 dB SINAD method
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity
Yea, I think 20 db quieting is more like 0.175 uV 12 db SINAD. -- Tim :wq On Sep 6, 2010, at 12:52 PM, John J. Riddell wrote: 2V AC down to .2 v. AC is 20 DB quieting
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
In that spirit. Going from 80 to 100 watts is 0.97 db better. That's probably not an improvement your users will notice. When one considers what a pain it is when the PA dies, it might not be worth it. Just my 2 cents but I think you're better off leaving the amp at 80 watts. -- Tim :wq On Sep 6, 2010, at 1:11 PM, W3ML wrote: It is great! I believe one should never quit learning about this hobby.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
John, here's a more subtle lesson on repeaters, and it has nothing to do with hardware... If you dial the power back 1 dB, your PA may be much happier. If you simultaneously change the courtesy beep to be 10% faster, users will ask you what's changed on the repeater. Tell them you've increased the transmitter output 3 dB, and they'll claim to have noticed the improved coverage. Tell him guys...am I wrong? ;^) 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - From: Tim Sawyer To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions In that spirit. Going from 80 to 100 watts is 0.97 db better. That's probably not an improvement your users will notice. When one considers what a pain it is when the PA dies, it might not be worth it. Just my 2 cents but I think you're better off leaving the amp at 80 watts.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
Hi, 70 watts out sounds OK. Duplexer's usually have about a 1 - 2db loss depends how they are set up, size of cavities etc and the model type. Duplexer loss = 10log(Pin/Pout) Duplexer Loss = 10Log(70/100)= -1.54dB. Peter On Mon, Sep 6, 2010 at 10:54 AM, W3ML w...@arrl.net wrote: Thanks Joe. We did most of those and then found the problem. The T-connector center pin had broken off when we apparently hooked up some test equipment and did not notice it. I still have one question though. Is it normal to have 100 watts coming out of radio and only 70 watts coming out of duplexer? Wacom 6 can type duplexer. That seems to be quite a loss. Again I appreciate all the help. 73 John, W3ML --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com, Joe k1ike_m...@... wrote: What make and model is the duplexer? I know of one instance that the loop inside the duplexer can come disconnected due to a bad solder joint, but can't remember what one it was. A search on this list should find it, as it was discussed recently. The first thing would be to check all connections for tightness. Do not over-tighten the connections! Just make sure that they are snug. If your knuckles are turning white, your tightening too much. N connectors need to be snug, UHF connectors need to be a little tighter, but not cranked down tight, but not until they break. What you can do is take the connecting cables off the transmit side cans and test the first one for power out. Then connect the next can in series and see if there is output from that can. This process should isolate the bad can(s). Disconnect the receiver while doing this just to be safe. MARK all the cables as to where they came from. Do not mix them up. It may be a bad cable, so if you find a problem make sure that it is not the interconnecting cable. If all the cans and cables test OK, their may be a problem on the receive side of the duplexer. Keep it simple, don't fool with the cans unless you prove that one is bad. This process is to eliminate the obvious before you go tinkering with the duplexer. Check the tightness of connections first, cables second, and lastly the cans. The process above will help you isolate the bad can so you hopefully only have to tinker with one can. The real fix would involve some test equipment. What do you have available? Service monitor, tracking generator? Others will probably have some good suggestions, these ideas are just off the top of my head. On 9/6/2010 9:37 AM, W3ML wrote: Hi, First, let me say that we are still new to the repeater business and learning as we go. This the first time in 30 ham years that I have been involved with a VHF repeater system. Our repeater was working okay at 80 watts out of GE Mastr II and 60 watts out of Duplexer. When I turn the power up to 100 out of radio and 80 out of duplexer it seemed to be working okay. But, now a few hours later there is no power coming out of duplexer at all. Radio still shows power coming out. Nothing was touch on the duplexer. Any ideas? 73 John, W3ML
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity
The Micor book says less than 0.5 uV for 20db quieting or 0.35 for 12 db SINAD. So the two are in fact equivalent. I get better than 0.35 for 12 db SINAD but I don't measure 0.5 for 20 db quieting. I must be doing something wrong. -- Tim :wq On Sep 6, 2010, at 12:52 PM, John J. Riddell wrote: 2V AC down to .2 v. AC is 20 DB quieting John VE3AMZ - Original Message - From: Tim Sawyer To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity I'm getting about 0.35 for 12 db SINAD. But that looks about 10 db quieting to me. What I typically do is open the squelch with no signal and set the volume to 2 Vac then crank up the signal to 0.2 vac. Isn't that 20 db, or am I missing something? -- Tim :wq On Sep 6, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Eric Lemmon wrote: spec is 0.5 uV without a preamp and 0.25 uV with a preamp, when using the 20 dB quieting method, and 0.35 and 0.175 respectively when using the 12 dB SINAD method
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
Paul speaks the truth. I had one fellow who always insisted something was wrong with the repeater when the foliage came on the trees every spring. I tried to explain to him that the leaves and humidity were attenuating the signal and that it was just a fact of life for the fringe-area users. Nonetheless, he insisted that the power was down or the VSWR was up. After arguing (nicely) with this fellow for a couple of weeks, I programmed a voice message on the repeater that I could call at-will and then told him I'd installed a wattmeter at the site that interfaced with the controller. I then demonstrated it to him. The message read The forward power is 35 watts and the reflected power is 0.7 watts. With this new 'feature' installed, he turned his attention to improving his antenna system. 73, Mike WM4B From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Plack Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 5:04 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions John, here's a more subtle lesson on repeaters, and it has nothing to do with hardware... If you dial the power back 1 dB, your PA may be much happier. If you simultaneously change the courtesy beep to be 10% faster, users will ask you what's changed on the repeater. Tell them you've increased the transmitter output 3 dB, and they'll claim to have noticed the improved coverage. Tell him guys...am I wrong? ;^) 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - From: Tim Sawyer mailto:tisaw...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions In that spirit. Going from 80 to 100 watts is 0.97 db better. That's probably not an improvement your users will notice. When one considers what a pain it is when the PA dies, it might not be worth it. Just my 2 cents but I think you're better off leaving the amp at 80 watts.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity
Not all voltmeters behave the same with complex AC waveforms (such as noise). Some of my Flukes are inaccurate at higher AC frequencies (like above a few hundred Hz) - and they're spec'ed that way. What kind of meter are you using, and where are you measuring (speaker terminals is where you should be measuring from)? Do you know what, exactly, the SP features/modifications are on your SP Micor? --- Jeff WN3A -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sawyer Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 6:07 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity The Micor book says less than 0.5 uV for 20db quieting or 0.35 for 12 db SINAD. So the two are in fact equivalent. I get better than 0.35 for 12 db SINAD but I don't measure 0.5 for 20 db quieting. I must be doing something wrong. -- Tim :wq On Sep 6, 2010, at 12:52 PM, John J. Riddell wrote: 2V AC down to .2 v. AC is 20 DB quieting John VE3AMZ - Original Message - From: Tim Sawyer mailto:tisaw...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity I'm getting about 0.35 for 12 db SINAD. But that looks about 10 db quieting to me. What I typically do is open the squelch with no signal and set the volume to 2 Vac then crank up the signal to 0.2 vac. Isn't that 20 db, or am I missing something? -- Tim :wq On Sep 6, 2010, at 10:46 AM, Eric Lemmon wrote: spec is 0.5 uV without a preamp and 0.25 uV with a preamp, when using the 20 dB quieting method, and 0.35 and 0.175 respectively when using the 12 dB SINAD method
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
I agree. Put it back to the original output. I always like to turn my stuff back at least 10%. Turn the beep tone up in volume, tell them you increased the power. see what they say. 73, Joe, K1ike On 9/6/2010 5:04 PM, Paul Plack wrote: John, here's a more subtle lesson on repeaters, and it has nothing to do with hardware... If you dial the power back 1 dB, your PA may be much happier. If you simultaneously change the courtesy beep to be 10% faster, users will ask you what's changed on the repeater. Tell them you've increased the transmitter output 3 dB, and they'll claim to have noticed the improved coverage. Tell him guys...am I wrong? ;^) 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - *From:* Tim Sawyer mailto:tisaw...@gmail.com *To:* Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com *Sent:* Monday, September 06, 2010 2:43 PM *Subject:* Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
Or speed up the CWID one or two WPM, or change to a slightly higher tone frequency. Top 40 stations sometimes still do this trick (pitching up their CD players or automation system playback speed maybe 1%) - some PD's are convinced that it improves ratings for one reason or another... --- Jeff -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 6:38 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions I agree. Put it back to the original output. I always like to turn my stuff back at least 10%. Turn the beep tone up in volume, tell them you increased the power. see what they say. 73, Joe, K1ike On 9/6/2010 5:04 PM, Paul Plack wrote: John, here's a more subtle lesson on repeaters, and it has nothing to do with hardware... If you dial the power back 1 dB, your PA may be much happier. If you simultaneously change the courtesy beep to be 10% faster, users will ask you what's changed on the repeater. Tell them you've increased the transmitter output 3 dB, and they'll claim to have noticed the improved coverage. Tell him guys...am I wrong? ;^) 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - From: Tim Sawyer mailto:tisaw...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity
I have tried with 3 volt meters and 2 SINAD meters: a Fluke 77, a Sinadder 3 (SINAD AC voltmeter) and a HP8924c. Pretty much same results with all. That is 20 db quieting around 0.7 uV, SINAD around 0.35. So what's the recommended meter? Should I trust the SINAD reading and chock the quieting reading up some unknown meter problems? Yes, measuring on the speaker terminals with no speaker. The Sinadder and 8924c have internal speakers but I suspect they are not loading the receiver. Yes. The Micor came with a 3 page document detailing SP71 modifications. Would you like me to scan and email you a copy? -- Tim :wq On Sep 6, 2010, at 3:30 PM, Jeff DePolo wrote: Not all voltmeters behave the same with complex AC waveforms (such as noise). Some of my Flukes are inaccurate at higher AC frequencies (like above a few hundred Hz) - and they're spec'ed that way. What kind of meter are you using, and where are you measuring (speaker terminals is where you should be measuring from)? Do you know what, exactly, the SP features/modifications are on your SP Micor? --- Jeff WN3A
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity
I have tried with 3 volt meters and 2 SINAD meters: a Fluke 77, a Sinadder 3 (SINAD AC voltmeter) and a HP8924c. Pretty much same results with all. That is 20 db quieting around 0.7 uV, SINAD around 0.35. So what's the recommended meter? Should I trust the SINAD reading and chock the quieting reading up some unknown meter problems? Very odd. I'd probably want to load the speaker PA; I usually just leave the speaker connected or use a load box. Yes. The Micor came with a 3 page document detailing SP71 modifications. Would you like me to scan and email you a copy? I'd be curious to see if any of the mods would affect AF response, IF bandwidth, or anything else that could be throwing off your numbers. IIRC, older Micor manuals didn't even have a 12 dB SINAD sensitivity spec, only a 20 dBQ spec/test procedure. That's what I remember always using as a pass/fail reference. Of course, SINAD is a better test, but you should expect an in-band Micor to still meet the quieting spec. --- Jeff WN3A
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity
Readers interested in this thread may find the following articles to be relevant: www.repeater-builder.com/measuring-sensitivity/measuring-sensitivity.html www.repeater-builder.com/tech-info/receiversensitivity.html 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sawyer Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 4:00 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity I have tried with 3 volt meters and 2 SINAD meters: a Fluke 77, a Sinadder 3 (SINAD AC voltmeter) and a HP8924c. Pretty much same results with all. That is 20 db quieting around 0.7 uV, SINAD around 0.35. So what's the recommended meter? Should I trust the SINAD reading and chock the quieting reading up some unknown meter problems? Yes, measuring on the speaker terminals with no speaker. The Sinadder and 8924c have internal speakers but I suspect they are not loading the receiver. Yes. The Micor came with a 3 page document detailing SP71 modifications. Would you like me to scan and email you a copy? -- Tim :wq On Sep 6, 2010, at 3:30 PM, Jeff DePolo wrote: Not all voltmeters behave the same with complex AC waveforms (such as noise). Some of my Flukes are inaccurate at higher AC frequencies (like above a few hundred Hz) - and they're spec'ed that way. What kind of meter are you using, and where are you measuring (speaker terminals is where you should be measuring from)? Do you know what, exactly, the SP features/modifications are on your SP Micor? --- Jeff WN3A
Re: [Repeater-Builder] 19D424089G1
I believe you are talking about an Exec II. Several places to check before replacing the PA. A common problem is the jumper between the exciter and the PA. The RCA connectors sometimes go intermittent. Also, if the TR relay hasn't been jumpered, it could have gone intermittent. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Larry Wagoner larrywago...@bellsouth.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 8:27 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] 19D424089G1 Anyone have one of the above they wish to part with? We have reason to suspect the PA in our repeater. It has developed various intermittent behaviors (dropping carrier, distorted audio, varying output, etc.) .. I believe this to be the 60 watt PA for the GE Mastr II Exec II mobile radio conversion. If I have the wrong board number, please advise ... Larry Wagoner - N5WLW PRCARC Training Officer PIC - MS SECT ARRL Yahoo! Groups Links No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3117 - Release Date: 09/06/10 02:35:00
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions
Guys .I have a similar problem with 2 repeaters but its in the receiver side .The maxon sm4450uhf receiver is tuned to the best it can be on the service monitor -115db and the bpbr duplexer is tuned to correct specs as far as I can see on the hp8921a .I have also tested the repeater in duplex mode into the service monitor and all good -115db no static, power out good Replaced the antenna and interconnecting cable is heliax and its all good I will be testing the antenna system with a new MFJ-269 antenna tester to make sure its ok .Transmission is a1 full distance but when a transmission is sent the repeater its good up close fast to come on but is slow to come on with distant stations. We are using a ctcss tone which I will be checking to see if it is correct .Saying that I should try it without the ctcss and see if it is better without the ctcss detection. Thank You ,Ian Wells Kerinvale Comaudio, 3A Murchison Street, Biloela.4715 Ph 0749922449 Mb 0409159932 Hm 0749922574 Fx 0749922767 www.kerinvalecomaudio.com.au ---Original Message--- From: Jeff DePolo Date: 7/09/2010 8:50:36 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions Or speed up the CWID one or two WPM, or change to a slightly higher tone frequency. Top 40 stations sometimes still do this trick (pitching up their CD players or automation system playback speed maybe 1%) - some PD's are convinced that it improves ratings for one reason or another... --- Jeff -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 6:38 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions I agree. Put it back to the original output. I always like to turn my stuff back at least 10%. Turn the beep tone up in volume, tell them you increased the power. see what they say. 73, Joe, K1ike On 9/6/2010 5:04 PM, Paul Plack wrote: John, here's a more subtle lesson on repeaters, and it has nothing to do with hardware... If you dial the power back 1 dB, your PA may be much happier. If you simultaneously change the courtesy beep to be 10% faster, users will ask you what's changed on the repeater. Tell them you've increased the transmitter output 3 dB, and they'll claim to have noticed the improved coverage. Tell him guys...am I wrong? ;^) 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - From: Tim Sawyer mailto:tisaw...@gmail.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: no power out of duplexer SOLVED with more questions faint_grain.jpg
Re: [Repeater-Builder] 19D424089G1
Larry - This is either an Exec II or a Mastr II - two different radios. The Exec II mobile is 'gray' and has a plastic, non-movable handle. The Mastr II mobile has a foldable handle. Which one do you have? Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: Larry Wagoner larrywago...@bellsouth.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 8:27 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] 19D424089G1 Anyone have one of the above they wish to part with? We have reason to suspect the PA in our repeater. It has developed various intermittent behaviors (dropping carrier, distorted audio, varying output, etc.) .. I believe this to be the 60 watt PA for the GE Mastr II Exec II mobile radio conversion. If I have the wrong board number, please advise ... Larry Wagoner - N5WLW PRCARC Training Officer PIC - MS SECT ARRL
RE: [Repeater-Builder] 19D424089G1
Larry, You have it right- the 19D424089G1 PA is rated at 60 watts over the 132-174 MHz band, with an external relay, and is found in the Mastr Executive II radio. LBI-30253 covers it: www.repeater-builder.com/ge/lbi-library/lbi-30352c.pdf The symptoms you describe may also be caused by a problem in the exciter, the relay, or the system control board. Have you already discounted these possible culprits? 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Wagoner Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 5:27 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] 19D424089G1 Anyone have one of the above they wish to part with? We have reason to suspect the PA in our repeater. It has developed various intermittent behaviors (dropping carrier, distorted audio, varying output, etc.) .. I believe this to be the 60 watt PA for the GE Mastr II Exec II mobile radio conversion. If I have the wrong board number, please advise ... Larry Wagoner - N5WLW
RE: [Repeater-Builder] 19D424089G1
Larry, You have it right- the 19D424089G1 PA is rated at 60 watts over the 132-174 MHz band, and is found in the Mastr Executive II radio. LBI-30253 covers it: www.repeater-builder.com/ge/lbi-library/lbi-30352c.pdf The symptoms you describe may also be caused by a problem in the exciter or the system control board. Have you already discounted these possible culprits? 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Wagoner Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 5:27 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] 19D424089G1 Anyone have one of the above they wish to part with? We have reason to suspect the PA in our repeater. It has developed various intermittent behaviors (dropping carrier, distorted audio, varying output, etc.) .. I believe this to be the 60 watt PA for the GE Mastr II Exec II mobile radio conversion. If I have the wrong board number, please advise ... Larry Wagoner - N5WLW PRCARC Training Officer PIC - MS SECT ARRL
Re: [Repeater-Builder] 19D424089G1
At 07:52 PM 9/6/2010, you wrote: I believe you are talking about an Exec II. Yes ... Several places to check before replacing the PA. A common problem is the jumper between the exciter and the PA. The RCA connectors sometimes go intermittent. Also, if the TR relay hasn't been jumpered, it could have gone intermittent. OK - will check the jumper. This was a conversion by MCC in Florida ... Larry Wagoner - N5WLW PRCARC Training Officer PIC - MS SECT ARRL
Re: [Repeater-Builder] 19D424089G1
At 07:41 PM 9/6/2010, you wrote: This is either an Exec II or a Mastr II - two different radios. The Exec II mobile is 'gray' and has a plastic, non-movable handle. The Mastr II mobile has a foldable handle. Which one do you have? OK - That would make this an Exec II - converted by MCC in Florida. Larry Wagoner - N5WLW PRCARC Training Officer PIC - MS SECT ARRL
RE: [Repeater-Builder] 19D424089G1
At 08:05 PM 9/6/2010, you wrote: You have it right- the 19D424089G1 PA is rated at 60 watts over the 132-174 MHz band, with an external relay, and is found in the Mastr Executive II radio. LBI-30253 covers it: www.repeater-builder.com/ge/lbi-library/lbi-30352c.pdf The symptoms you describe may also be caused by a problem in the exciter, the relay, or the system control board. Have you already discounted these possible culprits? Nothing eliminated yet. This radio was doing OK - and developed this problem lately. We have noticed variable output, garbling of the audio, and what appears to me from a remote mobile location to be momentary carrier drops. The garbled audio is accompanied by a major drop in output, while the momentary carrier drops look almost like someone is letting go of the key were we working simplex. It lasts only a moment before coming back up. Larry Wagoner - N5WLW PRCARC Training Officer PIC - MS SECT ARRL
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity
Yes, it is a DVP station. I have the DVP manual and I just checked the spec. It's the same 0.5 uV for 20 dBQ. The test procedure does say to load the speaker. I'll give that a try tomorrow. -- Tim :wq On Sep 6, 2010, at 8:17 PM, Jeff DePolo wrote: The SP docs show it being a DVP station. DVP receivers have wider (and flatter) IF filtering than standard Micor Sensitron receivers. They need a flatter IF passband to decode DVP properly. I'm wondering if that's why the 20 dBQ reading comes out higher than normal. I *thought* the A/S board was the same between DVP and standard stations, so the AF circuitry should be the same between the discriminator and the speaker terminals. --- Jeff -Original Message- From: Tim Sawyer [mailto:tisaw...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 8:04 PM To: Jeff DePolo Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity Here you go Jeff. Let me know what you see.
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity
Jeff, The DVP Micor uses a TRN8095A AS board, while the non-DVP stations use the TRN6006A board. The only differences involve the values of C231, C232, C233, C234, R234, and R237 which is used only on the DVP board. These components are all clustered at Test Points 12, 13, 14, and 15 on the schematic, and appear to affect only the squelch action. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Sawyer Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 9:20 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Cc: Jeff DePolo Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity Yes, it is a DVP station. I have the DVP manual and I just checked the spec. It's the same 0.5 uV for 20 dBQ. The test procedure does say to load the speaker. I'll give that a try tomorrow. -- Tim :wq On Sep 6, 2010, at 8:17 PM, Jeff DePolo wrote: The SP docs show it being a DVP station. DVP receivers have wider (and flatter) IF filtering than standard Micor Sensitron receivers. They need a flatter IF passband to decode DVP properly. I'm wondering if that's why the 20 dBQ reading comes out higher than normal. I *thought* the A/S board was the same between DVP and standard stations, so the AF circuitry should be the same between the discriminator and the speaker terminals. --- Jeff -Original Message- From: Tim Sawyer [mailto:tisaw...@gmail.com mailto:tisawyer%40gmail.com ] Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 8:04 PM To: Jeff DePolo Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor UHF Sensivity Here you go Jeff. Let me know what you see.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Mitrek lowband PTT questions
yes im a hoarder like you, hehehe i am not afraid to admit it, i love your collection of OLD junk LOLOLOLOL see you in the niiny bin where all the loonies go On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 6:30 PM, niteviser nitevi...@yahoo.com.au wrote: Marcus, You're a disposophobic, look up compulsive hoarder in Wikipedia. Don't refer to my 'collection' of radios, that is a genuine hobby and not any specific medical or mental condition. Until they come to take me away, Ha Ha.. niteviser --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com, x.tait.tech x.tait.t...@... wrote: what would it take short of some cash to have one sent to me here in New Zealand as a one off key, not that i need one, i am told i am a Hoarder Marcus On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 4:38 PM, KP3FT kp...@... wrote: Hi all, Thanks for the previous advice on the Mitrek lockout key; I ordered one off Ebay and it worked fine. Opened the radio up and everything looks visually OK, all the channel elements are there, no burned components, etc. I read through the Repeater-Builder's Mitrek webpages and figured out the pins for hookup. I was wondering if anyone could look over some sections of the Mitrek schematic http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/files/Mitrek%20Lowband/ I posted in the Files section under the folder Mitrek Lowband, regarding the PTT circuit. I circled the areas in question in red and blue. (I also hyperlinked to the various schematic sections in this message). I just want some verification before I start wiring up the radio. I found another website where the author said to jumper pin #1 to pin #25 on the interconnect board connection http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wBWDTM_dzohoZJ1M25svBvhmyUk3YStFZKcbHdVjzcHCTQSgFE9U0-wFOU3PHUQL3NIWEGUG1ndFPkhYrLdul9o1/Mitrek%20Lowband/interconnect_board.jpg , and then just ground pin #13 of the cable connector (or pin #13 on the front of the radio in my case) for PTT operation. (Pin #24 of the interconnect board connector is the same as pin #13 of the cable connector) My questions are: 1. What does the jumper do and is it beneficial for beacon operation? Here is the schematic section http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wBWDTDg1U9VoZJ1MJmrSx6917ZszwfFtwKxh8c5tPrKp1IiKeb_dd_z6o52LjBRH6eMjcKXGvRCwASnBIgIJ8PUE/Mitrek%20Lowband/mitrek_PTT.jpg of the PTT circuit. 2. I will be using the Mitrek solely as a transmitter beacon, so RX is not necessary. I'll have to disable the antenna relay http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wBWDTJ0GE-FoZJ1MoIPDEYBXLqbbFZph6Eymc3u9dFQYPG2vhGbVYg92QCtUhDuNVVr89_tTKgsBysS0H3B3Q5eW/Mitrek%20Lowband/Antenna_Relay.jpg because it won't last long during constant beacon operation, plus it isn't even needed. Can I just disable the relay by cutting power to it and wire the PA output directly to the antenna jack (two points circled in blue)? Or, just keep voltage on the relay so the RX section is always switched out and the TX switched in? Probably easier that way. 3. The radio has the PL board installed; can I just remove it so it doesn't introduce anything into the carrier, or just leave it alone? I can't tell from reading through the various websites and the schematic if the PL-encode is enabled automatically or if it needs switching on, in which case I will leave it off. Thanks for any advice. Jeff KP3FT
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Mitrek lowband PTT questions
i have no need for your old nappies, dirty underwear, or smelly atrmpit teeshirts , as these are Compulsive hoarding (or pathological hoarding or disposophobia or the Messie mindset) is a mental disorder marked by an obsessive need to acquire (and failure to use or discard) a significant amount of possessions, even if the items are worthless, hazardous, or unsanitary. ... have a loverly sunny day, un hasseled by mothers in law keep a happy face Marcus On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 6:30 PM, niteviser nitevi...@yahoo.com.au wrote: Marcus, You're a disposophobic, look up compulsive hoarder in Wikipedia. Don't refer to my 'collection' of radios, that is a genuine hobby and not any specific medical or mental condition. Until they come to take me away, Ha Ha.. niteviser --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com, x.tait.tech x.tait.t...@... wrote: what would it take short of some cash to have one sent to me here in New Zealand as a one off key, not that i need one, i am told i am a Hoarder Marcus On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 4:38 PM, KP3FT kp...@... wrote: Hi all, Thanks for the previous advice on the Mitrek lockout key; I ordered one off Ebay and it worked fine. Opened the radio up and everything looks visually OK, all the channel elements are there, no burned components, etc. I read through the Repeater-Builder's Mitrek webpages and figured out the pins for hookup. I was wondering if anyone could look over some sections of the Mitrek schematic http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Repeater-Builder/files/Mitrek%20Lowband/ I posted in the Files section under the folder Mitrek Lowband, regarding the PTT circuit. I circled the areas in question in red and blue. (I also hyperlinked to the various schematic sections in this message). I just want some verification before I start wiring up the radio. I found another website where the author said to jumper pin #1 to pin #25 on the interconnect board connection http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wBWDTM_dzohoZJ1M25svBvhmyUk3YStFZKcbHdVjzcHCTQSgFE9U0-wFOU3PHUQL3NIWEGUG1ndFPkhYrLdul9o1/Mitrek%20Lowband/interconnect_board.jpg , and then just ground pin #13 of the cable connector (or pin #13 on the front of the radio in my case) for PTT operation. (Pin #24 of the interconnect board connector is the same as pin #13 of the cable connector) My questions are: 1. What does the jumper do and is it beneficial for beacon operation? Here is the schematic section http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wBWDTDg1U9VoZJ1MJmrSx6917ZszwfFtwKxh8c5tPrKp1IiKeb_dd_z6o52LjBRH6eMjcKXGvRCwASnBIgIJ8PUE/Mitrek%20Lowband/mitrek_PTT.jpg of the PTT circuit. 2. I will be using the Mitrek solely as a transmitter beacon, so RX is not necessary. I'll have to disable the antenna relay http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/wBWDTJ0GE-FoZJ1MoIPDEYBXLqbbFZph6Eymc3u9dFQYPG2vhGbVYg92QCtUhDuNVVr89_tTKgsBysS0H3B3Q5eW/Mitrek%20Lowband/Antenna_Relay.jpg because it won't last long during constant beacon operation, plus it isn't even needed. Can I just disable the relay by cutting power to it and wire the PA output directly to the antenna jack (two points circled in blue)? Or, just keep voltage on the relay so the RX section is always switched out and the TX switched in? Probably easier that way. 3. The radio has the PL board installed; can I just remove it so it doesn't introduce anything into the carrier, or just leave it alone? I can't tell from reading through the various websites and the schematic if the PL-encode is enabled automatically or if it needs switching on, in which case I will leave it off. Thanks for any advice. Jeff KP3FT
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Micor Pin Gunk
Tom, Any statements made on the Caig website regarding a comparison of DeOxit and Stabilant, could hardly be judged as unbiased. Legitimate, real-world comparisons of contact enhancement compounds have already been made, many times, by Motorola, IBM, Bendix-King, Hewlett-Packard, Tektronix, and other major manufacturers. I remember an article in Radio-Electronics Magazine, some 30 years ago, where the excellent performance of Stabilant was documented. Many moons ago, I cured a problem with my Apple II+ using Stabilant 22- the plug-in expansion and memory cards had a tendency to walk out of their motherboard sockets and cause intermittent contact. A thorough cleaning with an alcohol-soaked Q-Tip, followed by an application of Stabilant 22A, completely cured the intermittent contact. Don't be concerned about Stabilant 22 becoming hard; it dries into a waxy film that remains pliable for years. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TGundo 2003 Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 9:27 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Micor Pin Gunk Thanks Lou, Bob, Eric, John and the rest! I have a bunch of techs around here that all swear by Deox-it as long as its used sparangily, and Caig seems to hit all concern points in their website vs.22. Has anyone had any specific issues directly related to using Deox-it? I want to do the right thing and will order the 22 if necessary, but not only because it is what Circle M recommends...maybe Deox-it was not around when they made the recommendation? From reading the Caig website I think it may be a better choiceI worry a little about the 22 drying into a rigid form. What happens over time as the pins heat up and expand/contract, especially in a non-climate controlled environment? Tom W9SRV --- On Sat, 9/4/10, wa6epd lme...@cox.net wrote: From: wa6epd lme...@cox.net Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Micor Pin Gunk To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, September 4, 2010, 10:57 PM Bob, NO6B, wrote:- This looks like the same stuff: http://www.micro-tools.com/store/P-22/Stabilant-22-5ml-Kit-Makes-30ml-Of-22 a.aspx The description of how Stabilant 22 works reads very similar to the Caig Labs DeOxIt products. A performance comparison between the 2 products would be interesting. Bob NO6B Take a look at:- http://store.caig.com/s.nl/ctype.KB/it.I/id.1977/KB.215/.f The do the comparison. -Lou- WA6EPD Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Interference on VHF repeater
Had basically the same problem with w GE MASTR II repeater on VHF HI. The issue was with the repeater transmitter. When the repeater sat quiet for a while then it was keyed up the transmitter would have many spurs that would slowly travel up the band. This affected other repeaters that were open squelch or had the same PL. On the GE MASTR II PA there is a circuit just after the filter that was the problem. The tech had put a filter on the transmitter side to help with desense. This caused the network to be unbalanced and was causing the transmitter to spur. Once the transmitter ran for a while it cleared. David From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brett Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 6:27 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Interference on VHF repeater Hi all, I have come across an interesting problem which you may be able to shed some light on. I have an intermod issue where my TX sometimes opens up my RX. I have the distinctive hollow pipe sound. Both TX and RX have the same CTCSS tone. The intermod product is however not always present, and after looking at the RX output from the duplexer with a SA I see a comb of products that move slowly in time. When one of the products in the comb falls within the RX bandwidth the RX opens, until it moves on. This is not a busy site, and I have been able to power down everything on site except my repeater. Problem remains unchanged. I have also disconnected feeders from all other RF equipment on site - still no change. The fact that the IM product frequency changes with time (drift rate is roughly a few kHz's an hour) makes me think that there is either another unknown source of RF on site which has poor freq stability (pretty unlikley), or somehow my TX freq is involved in producing this freq. I have inserted a 6dB pad in the antenna port of the duplexer and found that the IM products drop 12dB, and also curiously, the frequency of the products change. Removing the pad reverses this effect. I have repeated this many times and the result was always the same. It appears that the frequency of the IM product is dependent on the strength of the radiated field from my antenna. This is my question: I have read that it is possible for a strong EM field to excite metal (eg tower member) such that re-radiation will occur at a frequency which is different from that which excited it. Can anyone confirm they have seen this, or can anyone point me to a reference that talks about this? I should also mention there are multiple solar panels and associated regulators on site. The regulators have been discounted as possible sources, but the panels (given they may have bypass/blocking diodes) may be a mixing location, however the source of the drifting tone is still unclear. Thanks, Brett VK2CBD.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Circular polarization for VHF repeaters?
At 9/5/2010 08:23, you wrote: In my experience, cross-polarized antenna systems (those with simultaneous in-phase vertical and horizontal components) Isn't that just diagonal polarization? You can't have multiple linear polarization orientations; that's the whole point of circular polarization. Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Micor Pin Gunk
FYI; Many years ago when I worked for Hewlett Packard in their Test Equipment division, we used to use a UK contact cleaner called Eletrolube, it was sold by Radiospares in UK. It was the only spray or drip contact cleaner we could use on the HP DC Standard as others would cause micro volt calibration errors due to minute leakages. In its day it was the Rolls Royce of contact cleaners. Don't know if its still available. I think they even had a paste for heavy duty switch contacts. Peter On Sun, Sep 5, 2010 at 11:12 AM, Eric Lemmon wb6...@verizon.net wrote: Tom, Any statements made on the Caig website regarding a comparison of DeOxit and Stabilant, could hardly be judged as unbiased. Legitimate, real-world comparisons of contact enhancement compounds have already been made, many times, by Motorola, IBM, Bendix-King, Hewlett-Packard, Tektronix, and other major manufacturers. I remember an article in Radio-Electronics Magazine, some 30 years ago, where the excellent performance of Stabilant was documented. Many moons ago, I cured a problem with my Apple II+ using Stabilant 22- the plug-in expansion and memory cards had a tendency to walk out of their motherboard sockets and cause intermittent contact. A thorough cleaning with an alcohol-soaked Q-Tip, followed by an application of Stabilant 22A, completely cured the intermittent contact. Don't be concerned about Stabilant 22 becoming hard; it dries into a waxy film that remains pliable for years. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.comRepeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of TGundo 2003 Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 9:27 PM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Micor Pin Gunk Thanks Lou, Bob, Eric, John and the rest! I have a bunch of techs around here that all swear by Deox-it as long as its used sparangily, and Caig seems to hit all concern points in their website vs.22. Has anyone had any specific issues directly related to using Deox-it? I want to do the right thing and will order the 22 if necessary, but not only because it is what Circle M recommends...maybe Deox-it was not around when they made the recommendation? From reading the Caig website I think it may be a better choiceI worry a little about the 22 drying into a rigid form. What happens over time as the pins heat up and expand/contract, especially in a non-climate controlled environment? Tom W9SRV --- On Sat, 9/4/10, wa6epd lme...@cox.net lmeiss%40cox.net wrote: From: wa6epd lme...@cox.net lmeiss%40cox.net Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Micor Pin Gunk To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, September 4, 2010, 10:57 PM Bob, NO6B, wrote:- This looks like the same stuff: http://www.micro-tools.com/store/P-22/Stabilant-22-5ml-Kit-Makes-30ml-Of-22 a.aspx The description of how Stabilant 22 works reads very similar to the Caig Labs DeOxIt products. A performance comparison between the 2 products would be interesting. Bob NO6B Take a look at:- http://store.caig.com/s.nl/ctype.KB/it.I/id.1977/KB.215/.f The do the comparison. -Lou- WA6EPD Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Looking for CTCSS Tone board for MSR 2000 VHF Repeater
All of the MSR2000 audio and control modules are the same, regardless of band. Only the RF modules differ. George, KA3HSW / WQGJ413 - Original Message - From: A E atms...@yahoo.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 2:21 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Looking for CTCSS Tone board for MSR 2000 VHF Repeater Where would I look to find a CTCSS Tone Board for an ex RCMP VHF repeater system that has been converted to the amateur bands? Are the UHF CTCSS boards compatible ? Thanks in advance Aaron KE5KAF
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Unidentified part in msf5000 vhf station
At 08:10 PM 09/05/10, you wrote: I just aquired a second msf5000 to make a 2 meter repeater our of and it has a part not present in the first station. I suspect it could be a rx preamp due to the fact it has coax input and output and it is wired in series between the duplexer rx port and the receiver rf input. It appears to be an aluminum block rack mounted just below the power supply and is about 1.5 thick and about 8 or 9 inches wide. I did not see any electrical connections so if it is a preamp it must get power from the coax into the receiver. I am not familiar with this device. My other station did not have this part. Perhapps it is sopme kind of filter? Both stations are the digital capable models which I program with the rib and old laptop. Any ideas please! Pictures on request if needed. Is there a Moto part number on it? Either a multi-digit, something like 01V12345A01, or one with three letters and 4 digits, something like TLD, possibly with a trailing letter? Mike
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Circular polarization for VHF repeaters?
It looks like the FCC rules give you extra power when opting for dual polarization. No, they don't give you extra power. For commercial stations, horizontal polarization is the standard. You can supplement it with vertical, either as cross-polarized linear, or as elliptial/circular, but that Vpol component's ERP can't exceed the Hpol ERP. For non-commercial stations in the reserved band (i.e. below 92 MHz) within the affected area of a channel 6 station, there are many cases where they are authorized for more Vpol than Hpol to protect channel 6 (which is presumed to always be horizontally polarized). The only extra power you get is additional transmitter power output (TPO) due to the reduced antenna gain (assuming the number of bays remains the same, and the same bay spacing) when you go from horizontal polarizaton to mixed polarity. That's a confusing point, I know. Every circularly-polarized FM station I've seen (and that's a lot of them) use an antenna design that handles the phasing and time-delay to create the circularly-polarized signal. That's pretty much correct, but there are many stations that have a vertical component added that isn't necessarily part of a circularly-polarized array. The vertical may be added as a separate radiator, but not phased with the Hpol radiators to yield circular, so you just have two non-coherent linear polarizations. Or a single linear radiator may be tilted to give slant polarization, which the FCC will accept as having both an Hpol and Vpol component, with the ratio being a function of the tilt angle. The license reference to H and V powers (regarding c-pol station) is intended to say how much ERP should some out when the signal is V and how much when it is H. It is possible to make the two components different, resulting in elliptical polarization rather than circular. They can be different, and yet not be elliptical. If they aren't phased together to yield a coherent rotation at all azimuthal angles, it's just random cross-polarization, not elliptical. 99% of the current topic was covered a year or so ago on this list - might want to revisit the archives. For those thinking about building Cpol bays, I'd suggest starting out with something simple like a ring-stub. Easy to make with a tubing bender (or Armstrong method), feed with a gamma, DC-ground at the mounting bracket at the rear of the bay, decent pattern circularity (but not great axial ratio symmetry), cheap and easy way to start. For those not familiar, a ring stub bay looks like this (I don't recommend OMB, it's just a decent picture of a very basic ring stub bay): http://www.omb.com/en/index.php?option=contenttask=viewid=78Itemid=38 Ring stubs are sometimes also called cycloids (albeit sometimes erroneously), often built with a balanced feed. You can try Googling cycloid, ring stub FM antenna, etc. for more pics and design ideas or email direct. --- Jeff WN3A
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Interference on VHF repeater
Brett, How did you determine it's an IM product? What repeater/controller combination are you using? I'd try powering down the controller and manually keying the transmitter. If that solves it, it could be the controller's reference oscillator or divider outputs leaking onto the PTT line or elsewhere. Any compact fluorescent lights nearby? 73, Paul, AE4KR - Original Message - From: brett To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 5:26 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Interference on VHF repeater I have the distinctive hollow pipe sound. Both TX and RX have the same CTCSS tone. The intermod product is however not always present, and after looking at the RX output from the duplexer with a SA I see a comb of products that move slowly in time. When one of the products in the comb falls within the RX bandwidth the RX opens, until it moves on. This is not a busy site, and I have been able to power down everything on site except my repeater. Problem remains unchanged.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Interference on VHF repeater
Bret, you might have your PA going in to oscillation creating the spurs due to a highly reactive duplexer. We had a similar problem here many years ago and fixed it with a simple tuner on the TX similar ot the GE Z matcher . The one that we used was Home Brew. When the tuner was adjusted for minimum VSWR, the spurs went away. 73 John VE3AMZ - Original Message - From: brett brett_daw...@yahoo.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 7:26 AM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Interference on VHF repeater Hi all, I have come across an interesting problem which you may be able to shed some light on. I have an intermod issue where my TX sometimes opens up my RX. I have the distinctive hollow pipe sound. Both TX and RX have the same CTCSS tone. The intermod product is however not always present, and after looking at the RX output from the duplexer with a SA I see a comb of products that move slowly in time. When one of the products in the comb falls within the RX bandwidth the RX opens, until it moves on. This is not a busy site, and I have been able to power down everything on site except my repeater. Problem remains unchanged. I have also disconnected feeders from all other RF equipment on site - still no change. The fact that the IM product frequency changes with time (drift rate is roughly a few kHz's an hour) makes me think that there is either another unknown source of RF on site which has poor freq stability (pretty unlikley), or somehow my TX freq is involved in producing this freq. I have inserted a 6dB pad in the antenna port of the duplexer and found that the IM products drop 12dB, and also curiously, the frequency of the products change. Removing the pad reverses this effect. I have repeated this many times and the result was always the same. It appears that the frequency of the IM product is dependent on the strength of the radiated field from my antenna. This is my question: I have read that it is possible for a strong EM field to excite metal (eg tower member) such that re-radiation will occur at a frequency which is different from that which excited it. Can anyone confirm they have seen this, or can anyone point me to a reference that talks about this? I should also mention there are multiple solar panels and associated regulators on site. The regulators have been discounted as possible sources, but the panels (given they may have bypass/blocking diodes) may be a mixing location, however the source of the drifting tone is still unclear. Thanks, Brett VK2CBD. Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Circulator
At 9/3/2010 18:56, you wrote: I'm looking for a UHF circulator to buy (or borrow). I have a mix that involves our transmitter but I'm not sure it's in our transmitter. We have a Micor repeater with the built in circulator but some feel an outboard two port is required for our nasty hill. It would be good if I could test one and not spend money on something that won't help. Aside from the the borrow request what do others think about this. Is more circulator than the stock Micor necessary? How far away are the other mix products? If more than a couple of MHz or so you could try a pass cavity after the Micor circulator instead of a 2nd circulator. -- Tim :wq A vi command? That old text editor will never go away! Bob NO6B
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Interference on VHF repeater
Brett, Some additional information will be helpful. What makes/models of equipment are in your repeater? Are all jumper cables and the antenna feedline double-shielded? Are any of the connectors nickel-plated? Are there any barrels or adapters in your jumpers? Is there an isolator/circulator following the transmitter? What antenna are you using, and how far above the repeater equipment is it located? Try putting your attenuator right at the RX input connector, and repeat your IM test. Putting it at the antenna output is not a good idea, since the TX output power can cause it to overheat. Your description of the IM product suggests that it might be a spur generated within your PA, which could drift due to temperature changes. Have you verified that your TX carrier frequency is stable, and not drifting? 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of brett Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 4:27 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Interference on VHF repeater Hi all, I have come across an interesting problem which you may be able to shed some light on. I have an intermod issue where my TX sometimes opens up my RX. I have the distinctive hollow pipe sound. Both TX and RX have the same CTCSS tone. The intermod product is however not always present, and after looking at the RX output from the duplexer with a SA I see a comb of products that move slowly in time. When one of the products in the comb falls within the RX bandwidth the RX opens, until it moves on. This is not a busy site, and I have been able to power down everything on site except my repeater. Problem remains unchanged. I have also disconnected feeders from all other RF equipment on site - still no change. The fact that the IM product frequency changes with time (drift rate is roughly a few kHz's an hour) makes me think that there is either another unknown source of RF on site which has poor freq stability (pretty unlikley), or somehow my TX freq is involved in producing this freq. I have inserted a 6dB pad in the antenna port of the duplexer and found that the IM products drop 12dB, and also curiously, the frequency of the products change. Removing the pad reverses this effect. I have repeated this many times and the result was always the same. It appears that the frequency of the IM product is dependent on the strength of the radiated field from my antenna. This is my question: I have read that it is possible for a strong EM field to excite metal (eg tower member) such that re-radiation will occur at a frequency which is different from that which excited it. Can anyone confirm they have seen this, or can anyone point me to a reference that talks about this? I should also mention there are multiple solar panels and associated regulators on site. The regulators have been discounted as possible sources, but the panels (given they may have bypass/blocking diodes) may be a mixing location, however the source of the drifting tone is still unclear. Thanks, Brett VK2CBD.
Re: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Circulator
Tim Sawyer wrote: :wq try: :x Bob N06B wrote: A vi command? That old text editor will never go away! Absolutely! Isn't a recurring theme of this list to keep the old tools that work very well in service and don't replace that which isn't broken? Will Gwin www.N5KH.org
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Pin Gunk
The station ID adds some real class to the video. Chuck WB2EDV - Original Message - From: w9srv tgundo2...@yahoo.com To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 1:27 PM Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Pin Gunk Hi Guys! I am in the middle of rebuilding a receive site for one of the area repeaters and have come across some interesting Pin Gunk. I've been told that Motorola techs years ago used to apply some kind of goo to help with the connection on all the backplane pins, etc, but I don't know if this is what that is. This receive site has been developing some intermittant issues on several fronts, and maybe this explains them. The problem with this gunk is that is is non-conductive and a real bugger to clean off. DeOxit seems to work the best. I made this quick video last night showing this on the pins of the power control board. Here is the link to the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmWumkQetdY Has anyone else ever come across this? Are there any other steps other than cleaning it off to ensure it will not be another problem in the future? Thanks! Tom W9SRV
Re: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Circulator
Indeed, long live vi. I do have a pass cavity between the Micor circulator and the duplexer. I'm not sure where the other IM products are just yet. I'm sometimes hearing a pager. Once I heard what I suspect is Orange County Red Cross on 462.9875... still confirming this. I hear the drip from 147.435 every now and then. -- Tim :wq On Sep 4, 2010, at 8:03 AM, n...@no6b.com wrote: At 9/3/2010 18:56, you wrote: I'm looking for a UHF circulator to buy (or borrow). I have a mix that involves our transmitter but I'm not sure it's in our transmitter. We have a Micor repeater with the built in circulator but some feel an outboard two port is required for our nasty hill. It would be good if I could test one and not spend money on something that won't help. Aside from the the borrow request what do others think about this. Is more circulator than the stock Micor necessary? How far away are the other mix products? If more than a couple of MHz or so you could try a pass cavity after the Micor circulator instead of a 2nd circulator. -- Tim :wq A vi command? That old text editor will never go away! Bob NO6B
Re: [Repeater-Builder] UHF Circulator
Same thing but my fingers learned :wq too many years ago to retrain I even type it in my GUI editors... duh! -- Tim :wq On Sep 4, 2010, at 10:10 AM, Will Gwin wrote: try: :x
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Pin Gunk
Tom, Motorola does not now, and never has, recommended DeOxit or any other contact enhancer gunk besides Stabilant 22. Up until just a few years ago, Motorola specified Stabilant 22A, under part number 1180369E78, which is a mixture of pure Stabilant 22 and isopropyl alcohol. Today, Motorola sells a kit under part number 1180384V93 which comprises a 5 ml bottle of pure Stabilant 22, an empty 15 ml bottle, and some tiny swabs. The user then puts 2.5 ml of the Stabilant 22 into the 15 ml bottle and adds 10 ml of 99% isopropanol to make a working solution of Stabilant 22A, or adds 10 ml of pure ethanol to make a working solution of Stabilant 22E. Either solution is extremely effective if applied wet to clean connectors immediately before mating. It is also effective in curing intermittent contacts in card-edge connectors in PCs and electronic instruments. The alcohol solvent is essential for the product to work; undiluted Stabilant 22 is ineffective. Drug-store isopropyl alcohol, aka rubbing alcohol, should not be used since it is diluted with water and will interfere with Stabilant's action. The 1180384V93 kit is sold by Motorola Parts for about $47, but is sufficient to last for years. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of w9srv Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 10:28 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Pin Gunk Hi Guys! I am in the middle of rebuilding a receive site for one of the area repeaters and have come across some interesting Pin Gunk. I've been told that Motorola techs years ago used to apply some kind of goo to help with the connection on all the backplane pins, etc, but I don't know if this is what that is. This receive site has been developing some intermittant issues on several fronts, and maybe this explains them. The problem with this gunk is that is is non-conductive and a real bugger to clean off. DeOxit seems to work the best. I made this quick video last night showing this on the pins of the power control board. Here is the link to the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmWumkQetdY Has anyone else ever come across this? Are there any other steps other than cleaning it off to ensure it will not be another problem in the future? Thanks! Tom W9SRV
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Pin Gunk
Eric, you're singing my tune ! I've used that stuff for many years now and it is really great. It was developed here in Richmond Hill, Ontario, Canada by DW Electrochemicals. As you know only a very small amount is needed on the surface to be effective. The last bottle that I purchased here in Waterloo cost around $35.00. I'd bet that Electro-Sonic would carry it and they are now in the Buffalo areamight be quite a bit cheaper than the Motorola price... John VE3AMZ - Original Message - From: Eric Lemmon wb6...@verizon.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 2:13 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Pin Gunk Tom, Motorola does not now, and never has, recommended DeOxit or any other contact enhancer gunk besides Stabilant 22. Up until just a few years ago, Motorola specified Stabilant 22A, under part number 1180369E78, which is a mixture of pure Stabilant 22 and isopropyl alcohol. Today, Motorola sells a kit under part number 1180384V93 which comprises a 5 ml bottle of pure Stabilant 22, an empty 15 ml bottle, and some tiny swabs. The user then puts 2.5 ml of the Stabilant 22 into the 15 ml bottle and adds 10 ml of 99% isopropanol to make a working solution of Stabilant 22A, or adds 10 ml of pure ethanol to make a working solution of Stabilant 22E. Either solution is extremely effective if applied wet to clean connectors immediately before mating. It is also effective in curing intermittent contacts in card-edge connectors in PCs and electronic instruments. The alcohol solvent is essential for the product to work; undiluted Stabilant 22 is ineffective. Drug-store isopropyl alcohol, aka rubbing alcohol, should not be used since it is diluted with water and will interfere with Stabilant's action. The 1180384V93 kit is sold by Motorola Parts for about $47, but is sufficient to last for years. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of w9srv Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 10:28 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Pin Gunk Hi Guys! I am in the middle of rebuilding a receive site for one of the area repeaters and have come across some interesting Pin Gunk. I've been told that Motorola techs years ago used to apply some kind of goo to help with the connection on all the backplane pins, etc, but I don't know if this is what that is. This receive site has been developing some intermittant issues on several fronts, and maybe this explains them. The problem with this gunk is that is is non-conductive and a real bugger to clean off. DeOxit seems to work the best. I made this quick video last night showing this on the pins of the power control board. Here is the link to the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmWumkQetdY Has anyone else ever come across this? Are there any other steps other than cleaning it off to ensure it will not be another problem in the future? Thanks! Tom W9SRV Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Msf5000 Low Power alarms
You enter that code to get rid of the alarms. I was just wondering how you set them again should you want/need to do that. Joe M. Richard wrote: I'm not quite sure I understand your question. The procedure puts it into normal condition. Nothing further to do. For a conventional MSF5000 (NON-trunking) that is, a radio always without the RF sensor installed, the values 00 and FF are what is loaded at factory; e.g. normal. The problem usually happens when someone replaces a CLB SCB(analog) board with CXB SSCB that came from a 800 trunking radio. It will contain the setpoint values from its previous home. They need to be reset to FACTORY default for CONVENTIONAL stations. Non-trunking=no RF sensor = Factory setpoint value of 00,FF. --- In Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com, MCH m...@... wrote: How do you set it back to normal? Joe M. Richard Arnold wrote: There is an RSS software solution (bitbang) to get rid of the alarms. Connect the RIB to the operating MSF. From the main menu hit ALT-F5. A command line bar will appear telling you to enter an IPCB command. Enter the following: (WITHOUT the quotes) /1e1607160800FF it is CASE sensitive. This sets the FWD/REV settings to zero and FF (infinity) I've done it many times, and it works just fine! --- On *Sun, 8/29/10, jimmylpowell /jpow...@.../* wrote: From: jimmylpowell jpow...@... Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Msf5000 Low Power alarms To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, August 29, 2010, 12:36 PM I originally posted this on the MSF5000 board but got no response. I thought I would broaden my search. Does anyone know a way to get a non trunking MSF with out an internal power sensor to stop giving the 7 beeps? I have tried going back to a default codeplug and starting from scratch. This did not work. It seems that once the bit is set it won't go away. I'm sure that it happened when someone went into the screen to adjust the alarms. I know this is a common problem and they tell you not to do it. I have the alarms disabled over the air, but it annoys me on the local audio. I would like to enable the over the air alarms, but I can't until I can clear this one. My MSF has version 4.07 SSCB and 5.04 TTRC. Maybe there's some bit banging that can be done. Jimmy, K5JCT Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.783 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2746 - Release Date: 03/14/10 03:33:00 Yahoo! Groups Links
RE: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Pin Gunk
John, I did not find Stabilant listed in the Electro-Sonic online catalog, but I did find the identical kit at Micro-Tools for only $38, here: www.micro-tools.com/store/P-22/Stabilant-22-5ml-Kit-Makes-30ml-Of-22a.aspx I also found that Amazon sells the same kit as Micro-Tools, and for the same price of $38. I should point out that the kit does NOT make 30 ml of solution, as the listing implies; if the instructions are followed exactly- adding 10 ml of alcohol to 2.5 ml of pure Stabilant- the kit will make a total of 25 ml of solution. That's because the 15 ml bottle is filled only to the 12.5 ml point, where the bottle begins to narrow. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John J. Riddell Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 11:47 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Pin Gunk Eric, you're singing my tune ! I've used that stuff for many years now and it is really great. It was developed here in Richmond Hill, Ontario, Canada by DW Electrochemicals. As you know only a very small amount is needed on the surface to be effective. The last bottle that I purchased here in Waterloo cost around $35.00. I'd bet that Electro-Sonic would carry it and they are now in the Buffalo areamight be quite a bit cheaper than the Motorola price... John VE3AMZ - Original Message - From: Eric Lemmon wb6...@verizon.net mailto:wb6fly%40verizon.net To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 2:13 PM Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Pin Gunk Tom, Motorola does not now, and never has, recommended DeOxit or any other contact enhancer gunk besides Stabilant 22. Up until just a few years ago, Motorola specified Stabilant 22A, under part number 1180369E78, which is a mixture of pure Stabilant 22 and isopropyl alcohol. Today, Motorola sells a kit under part number 1180384V93 which comprises a 5 ml bottle of pure Stabilant 22, an empty 15 ml bottle, and some tiny swabs. The user then puts 2.5 ml of the Stabilant 22 into the 15 ml bottle and adds 10 ml of 99% isopropanol to make a working solution of Stabilant 22A, or adds 10 ml of pure ethanol to make a working solution of Stabilant 22E. Either solution is extremely effective if applied wet to clean connectors immediately before mating. It is also effective in curing intermittent contacts in card-edge connectors in PCs and electronic instruments. The alcohol solvent is essential for the product to work; undiluted Stabilant 22 is ineffective. Drug-store isopropyl alcohol, aka rubbing alcohol, should not be used since it is diluted with water and will interfere with Stabilant's action. The 1180384V93 kit is sold by Motorola Parts for about $47, but is sufficient to last for years. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -Original Message- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of w9srv Sent: Saturday, September 04, 2010 10:28 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com Subject: [Repeater-Builder] Micor Pin Gunk Hi Guys! I am in the middle of rebuilding a receive site for one of the area repeaters and have come across some interesting Pin Gunk. I've been told that Motorola techs years ago used to apply some kind of goo to help with the connection on all the backplane pins, etc, but I don't know if this is what that is. This receive site has been developing some intermittant issues on several fronts, and maybe this explains them. The problem with this gunk is that is is non-conductive and a real bugger to clean off. DeOxit seems to work the best. I made this quick video last night showing this on the pins of the power control board. Here is the link to the video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmWumkQetdY Has anyone else ever come across this? Are there any other steps other than cleaning it off to ensure it will not be another problem in the future? Thanks! Tom W9SRV Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Repeater-Builder] Re: Interference on VHF repeater
Look around for a switch mode power supply that uses 600kHz as the switch frequency. SMPS Battery Chargers are popular for causing this. Also florescent twist lights are really good for making desense on VHF.
