Re: [Biofuel] 34.6 cents per kilowatt hour. PG

[Michael Redler]

I read all the responses initiated by the Illich quote. (IMO) Kirk is one of the few who really gets it.Claims of “the problem” being social or a result of religious dogma has merit. However, when considering that public schools follow policies set by the same government that have also embraced a policy of manufacturing consent all the way back to the Wilson administration (formal doctrines), it’s wise to ask yourself
 where one would go for access to the masses and implement such a policy.Wilson and the Creel Committee:  http://www.sourcewatch.org/wiki.phtml?title=Creel_CommitteeOther comments about where one learned reading, writing, math, history and science provoke an argument of its own, since our system is not
 competitive with much of the World. In terms of it’s relation to Illich, it misses the point completely. Absorbing and regurgitating knowledge in the subjects listed above do not address the conditioning in which public schoolshave beenso effective.I had more to say but, I think the original quote stands on it’s own merit – especially when a little research reveals the state of our education system and the bizarre interpretation of U.S. history which
 allows us to deny the genocide of native Americans even while flipping through the phone book for our favorite pizza place (for example).It is this portion of the quotewhich I think of whenever “No Child Left Behind” re-enters the news:“The pupil is thereby "schooled" to confuse teaching with learning, grade advancement with education, a diploma with competence, and fluency with the ability to say something new.” It’s also the reason that unconventional systems like Montessori have become popular and home schooling is developing into an effort shared by entire communities, causing it to improvewith theincorporation of social
 interaction.By the way, this isn’t the first time we’ve discussed Ivan Illich:http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg61624.htmlhttp://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg18741.html…etc., etc.-Redler  ___
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Re: [Biofuel] 34.6 cents per kilowatt hour. PG

[Michael Redler]

"...folks are not taught how to think, only what to think...from kindergarten through high school."Right-on!- Redler"Many students, especially those who are poor, intuitively know what the schools do for them. They school them to confuse process and substance. Once these become blurred, a new logic is assumed: the more treatment there is, the better are the results; or, escalation leads to success. The pupil is thereby "schooled" to confuse teaching with learning, grade advancement with education, a diploma with competence, and fluency with the ability to say something new. His imagination is "schooled" to accept service in place of value. Medical treatment is mistaken for health care, social work for the improvement of community life,
 police protection for safety, military poise for national security, the rat race for productive work. Health, learning, dignity, independence, and creative endeavor are defined as little more than the performance of the institutions which claim to serve these ends, and their improvement is made to depend on allocating more resources to the management of hospitals, schools, and other agencies in question."From: Why We Must Disestablish School by Ivan Illich  robert and benita rabello [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  MK DuPree wrote:  I'm with you Kirk on this one. Look at the educational system in the U.S.A., maybe anywhere. For the most part, folks are not taught how to think, only what to think...from kindergarten through high school. Add to that many kids social background, parents who were subjected to the same bullshit system and there you go...now now children, remember George Washington, couldn't tell a lie...what crap. I'm a product of that system, and I object to your broad characterization. There were MANY people in my experience who encouraged real thinking, and some of them were teachers. Add to that the religion foisted on folks and socialization to trust, to forgive, to do everything except open their eyes and behold the hand in
 their pockets...need I say more??? Many people prefer safety and comfort to making hard choices. Some folk have become cynical, too. There is nothing wrong with trust and forgiveness, provided that such trust and forgiveness is coupled with wisdom. Wisdom, however, is the fair daughter of pain, and sometimes the best lessons are those we've learned the hard way. A bill like the one we've been discussing just might motivate such wisdom. (Why do I need so much AC now, when only a few years ago I didn't have it on so much? Why are the mountain peaks barren during the summer? Why aren't we getting as much snow as we used to? Are there any alternatives to our current paradigm of energy use?) Some people need to be shocked out of complacency. Others, like me, who've been advocating change for DECADES, shake our heads at what it takes to wake our friends
 and neighbors up. But some people ARE waking up. Kirk is right. Alternatives exist, and many of these are becoming more economically viable. (I was at Princess Auto yesterday, looking at air compressors and thinking about turning one into an Organic Rankine Cycle engine . . . )Yes, I do. Zeke, who have you helped today see a little more clearly who you knew was blind before today? I wonder what might happen if everyone of us on this list took it upon ourselves to help educate just one person/family who we knew needed help learning how to think? What changesmight we wreak on the planet This is often a process that other people resist, and some of them do so rather stridently. (I can tell really sad stories
 about this!) The best education is one of example. Your friends and neighbors are watching what you do, whether they will admit this or not. So grow a garden. (Mine made it into the local newspaper last Friday!) Reduce your energy and water usage. Drive less (if at all). Support your local farmers and ranchers. The only real solutions are local ones, anyway.robert luis rabello  ___
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Re: [Biofuel] Guerilla Media...was 34.6 cents per kilowatt hour. PG

[Michael Redler]

"...slip some truth in between all the sports scores and the TV guide. people will then read it, and not realize that they learned something they would have never otherwiseheard of."LOL! That's awesome, tricking people into being educated.Once that happens, they'll be on our side!...I said educated, not sane.:-)Here is the biggest threat to the current administration and Rupert Murdoch's propaganda machine (IMO):"The Second Superpower is a term used to conceptualize a global civil society as a world force comparable to or counterbalancing the United States of America. The term derives
 originally from a 2003 New York Times article which described 'world public opinion' as one of two'superpowers.'"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_superpower  -Redler  Jason  Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  WARNING!!! FULL BLOWN OPINION AHEAD!!!this sounds kind of cruel, but if you go straight to the people workingin the newspaper business (at least where im from) you can appealdirectly to their interests and values, and if
 you feed them enough realnews, eventually they will begin putting your stuff in the paper on afairly regular basis, and you can slip some truth in between all thesports scores and the TV guide. people will then read it, and notrealize that they learned something they would have never otherwiseheard of. i believe this is the first step. the next step would be totry publishing facts that tear down the "normal standards" and givepeople options to think about. after so many years of being fed "oneright way", changing someones mind will have to be slightly circuitousto begin with. when they start to think for themselves, that is when youoffer them a chance to really explore life. How we gonna change all this? we need to get rid of all our Massmedia,change Journalismteachers and Schools and get started with independet Journalism! Keith would know more about this subject! 
 Fritz___
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Re: [Biofuel] If Drug companies made cars

[Michael Redler]

  Very nice perspective!I encourage everyone to distribute widely.-RedlerKirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 15 Ways the Auto Industry Would Change if it Operated Like Drug CompaniesBy Mike Adams, The
 Health Ranger  What would happen if you had to buy your car from a company that operated in the same way as the pharmaceutical industries? Mike Adams, the Health Ranger, came up with 15 unsettling changes that would occur.  Cost  [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Michael Redler]

"Yes, a Calivinist nation - all claiming exceptionalism - but this is a collective thing, not really individual."That reminds me of Max Weber's The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism. I started on itbut was distracted. From what I read, It seems worth mentioning in this thread.- Redler  Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  A warm bath hath charms to soothe the savage list member ;-)For you, Don Kemple, remember: Incomprehesibility is a gift, son, use it wisely."A Nation of Shopkeepers, all selling local-produced goods?" Forgive me, my Schumacher is pretty rusty.Yes, a Calivinist nation - all claiming exceptionalism - but this is a collective thing, not really individual.But I
 think that we are now at a stage where, under the leadership of GW, we're mouthing "all nations are equal," but, we're just equalerer than the other equal ones.4 legs good, 2 legs bad.4 legs good, 2 legs bad.4 legs good, 2 legs bad.Mike Redler wrote: Kind sir, Thank your for your gratitude. However, I find myself entirely outdone  by your short but profound response. I shall now follow the advice of  my esteemed virtual colleague, Mr. Weaver and retire to the loo for a  bath. Ta ta, - Redler Martin Kemple wrote: Thanks Mike! Intriguing perspective. Though I'm preternaturally suspicious of our (Westerners') proclivity  for exceptionalism (from the creed of Manifest Destiny on the one  extreme, to its opposite - that we're inveterate 
 "predator-imperialists," on the other), it's a hard box to escape from. Adam Smith / E.F. Schumacher - two sides of the came coin? Know what I mean? That is: Not only are we moderns "different", we're more different  than anybody else has ever been. What's up with that? I recoil at the idea, yet can't get away from it. Like a dark magnet : o -MK On Aug 22, 2006, at 10:36 AM, Michael Redler wrote: Martin,  Necessity can be broadly defined by what is popularly needed in a civilization. Since "Necessity is the Mother of invention", it stands to reason that the path to any invention is paved by the civilization from which it came.  The civilizations you mentioned were content with technical developments that required
 only what was immediately available to them from their environment. In my opinion that's something which our ambitious culture hasn't yet been able to appreciate.  As E. F. Schuhmacher explained so effectively in his writing, the so called "modern world" and it's technology has often taken us in directions which does more harm than good.  It's presumptuous to quantify the progress of civilization by a hand full of great inventors and assume that they have made the world a better place. I say this as someone who has two engineering degrees, a patent of my own and a wife who is a research scientist and a PhD. in Chemistry.  I admire all the people mentioned in this thread plus many who have yet to be mentioned. However, to put things in perspective, one needs to ask if the work of
 particular inventors are a measure of progress in a civilization (irrespective of politics):  Could any of these people have been able to do what they did without the work of their predecessors and the civilization from which they came? Should we be thankful for a passion which was beyond their control and grew from their own natural curiosity?  Tesla and Edison represent two fundamental ideologies and a broad range of innovative thinking. Tesla, a theorist, would have not made the progress he did, without the work of people born (as much as four hundred years) before him like Newton, Pascal, Fourier, etc. Edison's assets surrounded him every hour of every day. He was inspired by and built upon every technology to which he was exposed, representative of every inventor which came
 before him.  I think it's also important to mention that technology evolves with the priorities of our civilization. By that, I mean you can't judge people like Jonas Salk, J. Robert Oppenheimer, the Wright Brothers or Richard Gatling until you've also judged those who used their inventions and examined the inventor's justification for it's development.  If I boiled all this down to a single question, it would be:  If we were able to measure the "success","progress",etc. of "the modern world", who would get the credit?  Similar questions include:  How high is up?  How dark is gray?  -Redler  */Martin Kemple <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Question: Why didn't most
 Native Americans, for example, master the wheel for transportation on their own? Why didn't the Chinese, for starters, invent internal combustion much earlier than the opportunists who did? And why didn't the Arabs, for instance, harness electricity much sooner than the nitwits who stumbled onto it? In other words: Why did it all take so dang long, and then all happen seemingly at once? -Martin K.___
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Re: [Biofuel] Doubting Official 9/11 Story Is 'Disloyal To The United States'

[Michael Redler]

Whoa!"Thorn Bush" - That's bad, like a boy named Sue.Maybe it can be put to music.Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  On 8/23/06, Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Whatever shrub can screw you with I guess.Kirk  Ouch, that brings some bad mental imagery to mind. Especially if you think of a thorn bush___Biofuel mailing
 listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___
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Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Michael Redler]

Martin,Necessity can be broadly defined by what is popularly needed in a civilization.Since "Necessity is the Mother of invention", it stands to reason that the path to any invention is paved by the civilization from which it came.Thecivilizations youmentioned were content withtechnical developments that required only what was immediately availableto them fromtheir environment.In my opinionthat's something which our ambitious culture hasn't yet been able toappreciate.AsE. F.Schuhmacher explained so effectively in his writing, the so called "modern world" and it's technology has often taken us in directions whichdoes more harm than good.It's presumptuous to quantify the progress of civilizationby a hand full of great inventors and assume that they have made the world
 a better place. I say this as someone who has two engineering degrees,a patent of my ownand a wife who is a research scientist and a PhD. in Chemistry.I admire all the people mentioned in this thread plus many who have yet to be mentioned. However,to put things in perspective,one needs to ask ifthe work of particular inventorsare a measure of progress in acivilization (irrespective of politics):Could any of these people have been able to do what they did without the work of their predecessors and thecivilization from which they came? Should we be thankful for a passion which was beyond their control andgrew from their ownnatural curiosity?Tesla and Edison represent twofundamental ideologiesanda broad range of innovative thinking. Tesla, a theorist, would have not made the progress he did, without the
 work ofpeople born (as much as four hundred years) before him like Newton, Pascal, Fourier, etc. Edison's assets surrounded him every hour of every day. He was inspired by and built upon every technology to which he was exposed, representative of every inventor which came before him.I think it's also important to mention that technology evolves with the priorities of our civilization. By that, I mean you can'tjudge people likeJonas Salk, J. RobertOppenheimer, the Wright Brothersor Richard Gatlinguntil you've also judged those who used their inventions and examined the inventor's justification for it's development.If I boiled all this down to a single question, it would be:If we were able to measure the "success","progress",etc. of"the modern world", who would get the credit?Similar questions include:
How high is up?How dark is gray?-RedlerMartin Kemple [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Question:Why didn't most Native Americans, for example, master the wheel for transportation on their own?Why didn't the Chinese, for starters, invent internal combustion much earlier than the opportunists who did?And why didn't the Arabs, for instance, harness electricity much sooner than the nitwits who stumbled onto it?In other words: Why did it all take so dang long, and then all happen seemingly at once?-Martin K.On Aug 21, 2006, at 10:28 AM, Kirk McLoren wrote: Political correctness is part of it I think. Tesla was a maverick and Edison a mainstream guy. When
 JP Morgan realized what Tesla was up to with his global wireless  power scheme he pulled the rug out from under Tesla. Even though Tesla  invented the induction motor he died poor and alone. I think another  factor is are they foreign. Perhaps Bose ran afoul of that one. We  used to make fun of the Russians because any invention of worth was  credited to a Russian. I suspect we do the same thing. It is not  apparent to someone within the culture as you hear no conflicting  argument. I remember reading a citation once about a paper on the theory of  relativity. It waspublished by an Italian 2 years prior to Einsten  (yes he was an immigrant - but- he was here). And as an amateur  historian I know revisionism extends back through prehistory. Old  anthro books have some fascinating archeology skipped by modern books.  The giants excavated from the Ohio River mounds
 for example. Hundreds  of skeletons shipped to the Smithsonian to disappear. Shades of  Indiana Jones.  I remember Bose by the way and saw photos of some of his apparatus. An  original thinker. Brilliant person.  Kirk Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Yes and Jagadis Chandra Bose was experimenting with milimeter waves (  60 GHZ radio waves) back in the 1890's before Marconi and Otto  Lilienthal was flying under control hundreds of times in the 1890's  before the Wright Brothers..but history remembers only certain  ones eh? What's up with that? Joe Michael Redler wrote: "Tesla invented the modern world far more than Edison or  Westinghouse or Marconi."  Damn! I didn't even know the modern
 world was invented.  - Redler (average person)  Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: I am not a fan of that Ramtha person. She is quite egotistical. But I would not dismiss the whole film out of hand. Some  interesting c

Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Michael Redler]

I wasn't sure what you meant so...I looked it up.Main Entry: wishy-washyPronunciation: 'wi-shE-"wo-shE, -"wä-Function: adjectiveEtymology: reduplication of washy1 : lacking in character or determination : INEFFECTUAL wishy-washy leadership2 : lacking in strength or flavor : WEAK wishy-washy wines - wishy-wash·i·ness noun Nope...still don'tknow what you mean. Thanks just the same for the complementabout "fitting right in" though.Oh Can-adada dee da da da da...I'm working on it...eh?:-)- Redler  Joe Street
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Hey Redler;You're all wishy washy. Despite your engineering degrees! You should move to Canada. You'd fit right in.J ;)Michael Redler wrote: Martin,Necessity can be broadly defined by what is popularly needed in a civilization.Since "Necessity is the Mother of invention", it stands to reason that the path to any invention is paved by the civilization from which it came.Thecivilizations youmentioned were content withtechnical developments that required only what was immediately availableto them fromtheir environment.In my opinionthat's something which our ambitious culture
 hasn't yet been able toappreciate.AsE. F.Schuhmacher explained so effectively in his writing, the so called "modern world" and it's technology has often taken us in directions whichdoes more harm than good.It's presumptuous to quantify the progress of civilizationby a hand full of great inventors and assume that they have made the world a better place. I say this as someone who has two engineering degrees,a patent of my ownand a wife who is a research scientist and a PhD. in Chemistry.I admire all the people mentioned in this thread plus many who have yet to be mentioned. However,to put things in perspective,one needs to ask ifthe work of particular inventorsare a measure of progress in acivilization (irrespective of politics):Could any of these people have been able to do
 what they did without the work of their predecessors and thecivilization from which they came? Should we be thankful for a passion which was beyond their control andgrew from their ownnatural curiosity?Tesla and Edison represent twofundamental ideologiesanda broad range of innovative thinking. Tesla, a theorist, would have not made the progress he did, without the work ofpeople born (as much as four hundred years) before him like Newton, Pascal, Fourier, etc. Edison's assets surrounded him every hour of every day. He was inspired by and built upon every technology to which he was exposed, representative of every inventor which came before him.I think it's also important to mention that technology evolves with the priorities of our civilization. By that, I mean you can'tjudge people likeJonas Salk, J. RobertOppenheimer, the Wright Brothersor
 Richard Gatlinguntil you've also judged those who used their inventions and examined the inventor's justification for it's development.If I boiled all this down to a single question, it would be:If we were able to measure the "success","progress",etc. of"the modern world", who would get the credit?Similar questions include:How high is up?How dark is gray?-RedlerMartin Kemple [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Question:Why didn't most Native Americans, for example, master the wheel for transportation on their own?Why didn't
 the Chinese, for starters, invent internal combustion much earlier than the opportunists who did?And why didn't the Arabs, for instance, harness electricity much sooner than the nitwits who stumbled onto it?In other words: Why did it all take so dang long, and then all happen seemingly at once?-Martin K.[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] plug in hybrid insight?

[Michael Redler]

That's a great question Zeke.I've been almost conditioned to automatically look at the Prius for such a conversion.MikeZeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Does anyone on this list know if it is possible to convert a honda insight to plug in hybrid. I know several people have made plug in priuses, but I was under the impression that the insight system is different and can't run on electric only.  Actually, I'm not even sure if the plug in priuses operating in electric only mode, or if it just boosts the gas mileage for a while to have charged it from the grid.  I've got a friend with an insight, and he'd like to be able to charge it from his PV system instead of having to use gasoline. Is this possible? Zeke___
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Re: [Biofuel] Mystery

[Michael Redler]

Andrew wrote: "bad, perhaps young movie reference. Anyone get it?"Ah! The paperboy!How about some Fronch fries or Fronch toast?...I digress.Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Yeah, but does anyone remember Flip Wilson's routine?Andrew Libby wrote:I want my two dollars. Two d-dollars.(bad, perhaps young movie reference. Anyone get it?)AndyMike Weaver wrote: Whatever. Just send me my damned dollar, McLoren...[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] Mystery

[Michael Redler]

Let's say that it's not three guys, but one guy with a multiple personality disorder like Redler, Weaver and Weaver.When everything's said and done,theguest paid a total of $27.00 for the room.The hotel has $25.00 and the bellboy has $2.00.There was a difference of two dollars between what the room cost and what the guest payed. That difference ended up in the bellboys pocket.So the the person asking the question gave the impression that one needed to add $27.00 + $2.00 to arrive at $30.00 when actually it only balances when you subtract:$30.00 - $3.00 - $2.00 = $25.00...very clever.- RedlerKirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  3 MEN GO INTO A MOTEL. THE MAN BEHIND THE DESK SAID THE ROOM IS $30, SO
 EACH MAN PAID $10 AND WENT TO THE ROOM. A WHILE LATER THE MAN BEHIND THE DESK REALIZED THE ROOM WAS ONLY $25, SO HE SENT THE BELLBOY TO THE 3 GUYS' ROOM WITH $5. ON THE WAY THE BELLBOY COULDN'T FIGURE OUT HOW TO SPLIT $5 EVENLY BETWEEN 3 MEN, SO HE GAVE EACH MAN A $1 AND KEPT THE OTHER $2 FOR HIMSELF. THIS MEANT THAT THE 3 MEN EACH PAID $9 FOR THE ROOM, WHICH IS A TOTAL OF$27, ADD THE $2 THAT THE BELLBOY KEPT = $29. WHERE IS THE OTHER DOLLAR?   Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. MailScanner has detected a possible fraud attempt from "us.rd.yahoo.com" claiming to be Great rates starting at 1¢/min.___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to
 Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___
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Re: [Biofuel] Don't Become a Scientist!

[Michael Redler]

O.K. so, we've covered scientist, doctor...I was laid off from my latest engineering job last year and said to Hell with that! My last few positions as a product design engineer were in title only. It's not unusual for a company to hire an engineer, not have the foggiest notion what to do withone, and end up having him/her become a documentation specialist, filing stuff all day and writing reports.I am the chairperson of a local section of ASME (but, not for long) and many that I've talked to, tell their children not to pursue engineering as a career choice.The bureau of labor statistics often lists manufacturing as the only category having a negative number."The new jobs are as follows: professional and business services, 27,000; education and health services, 41,000; waitresses and bartenders, 10,000. Manufacturing lost 14,000 jobs." 
 From:The Death of US Engineering, by Paul Craig Roberts  http://counterpunch.org/roberts06062006.htmlWhat's left? Hmmm... Ah yes. Lawyers!-RedlerMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  I'd skip medicine too. The school debt is staggering and they work you to death for not that much money. When you calculate the number of hours you work, the amount needed to pay of your loans it's not such a great living. My sister is a doctor and she's sure not getting rich, or even close.D. Mindock
 wrote:  http://www.physics.wustl.edu/~katz/scientist.htmlDon't Become a Scientist!  Jonathan I. Katz  Professor of Physics  Washington University, St. Louis, Mo.  [my last [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Are you thinking of becoming a scientist? Do you want to uncover the  mysteries of nature, perform experiments or carry out calculations to  learn how the world works? Forget it! [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Michael Redler]

You're cuisin' now Weaver!Keep Mom out of it or else we'll have to settle things after school, behind the gym.Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Dear Pinkler,I never GPL's it, so it's mine.besides, you're on MY half of the seat! MOM!-WeaverMike Redler wrote:It doesn't matter Weaver! I'm sure it was invented so long ago that it's expired and in the public domain by now. So, there's nothing you can do about it!You're not the boss of me!Mike Weaver wrote: I invented it.So try not to piss me off.-Mike "Big Head" Weaver[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] These dam greenies are everywhere......

[Michael Redler]

If you plan to have any ospreytenants in the future, it might require some work to keep it up to code.You will have to contact the inspector and apply for a certificate of occupancy - even if it's used as a guest house.Depending on the state, you might also need to install a flushing toilet.By the way, 9' mightrequire a fire escape.I don't mean to be the bearer of bad news...just tryin' to help.- RedlerMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Uh oh,I have a 9' tall foot abandonded Osprey nest I've been maintaning for several years now - I wonder if it'll get me in trouble?bob allen wrote:Howdy folks, if you read the analysis at Snopes, you'll discover the the
 Michigan authorities are not quite as stupid as seems, nor the land owner so innocent. I would be pi**ed off too if an adjacent land owner started messing with my land. " The letter concerned an enforcement action directed to a tenant on property surrounding Spring Pond,which is located in Pierson Township, Montcalm County, Michigan. The tenant was observed by the downstreamcomplainant, and has since admitted to the complainant, that he artificially built up, and maintained twoabandoned beaver dams on the discharge end of the natural pond. Such an activity falls under the jurisdictionof Part 301, Inland Lakes and Streams, of the Natural Resources and Environmental Protection Act, 1194 PA 451,as amended. It is the Department's position that in the absence of any threat to public welfare, beaver damsshould be left in their natural state,
 that being either actively maintained or abandoned by beaver."[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] What the bleep -was galloway

[Michael Redler]

"Tesla invented the modern world far more than Edison or Westinghouse or Marconi."Damn! I didn't even know the modern world was invented.- Redler (average person)Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I am not a fan of that Ramtha person. She is quite egotistical.  But I would not dismiss the whole film out of hand. Some interesting comments were made that are valid.  Remember these people tried to explain the "unexplainable" at least using the frame of reference of the man in the street.  Try explaining the federal reserve to the average person. They may surprise you with the difficulty they have with some far simpler concepts than what "bleep" was trying to address.  As for Ramtha
 remember people dont want magic, they demand it.  A successful club owner told me that. I think he is correct.  Modern science is full of showmanship and misrepresentation as well.  Edison gets credit for Tesla's work and so on. Tesla invented the modern world far more than Edison or Westinghouse or Marconi. What does the average person know though?  We arent a tenth as clever as we think we are.KirkJoe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Here is a link to an entry in the skeptic's dictionary about the producer of that movie. Have a read and do a check on the 'experts' that appeared in that movie to see what their peers have to say about them if you want to have a good laugh.http://skepdic.com/channel.htmlToo funny!JoeMK DuPree wrote:  Hi D...thank you. Say, thank you too for alerting me way back when to the video What the Bleep Do We Know? Outstanding. Will be watching again. Mike- Original Message -   From: D. Mindock   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org   Sent: Friday, August 11, 2006 1:51 AM  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] George Galloway _ Lebanon. View it whileyou canMike,  See: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_alladdress=364x1828245which has a blurb plus links.  Peace, D. Mindock- Original Message -   From: MK DuPree   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org   Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 2:20 PM  Subject: [Biofuel] {Disarmed} Re: George Galloway _ Lebanon. View it whileyou canLet me also add this note. I haven't checked the Pentagon site for this info. Maybe someone else would care to research it and verify. But here you. -- Mike DuPreehttp://english.people.com.cn//200608/09/eng20060809_291225.html40,000 U.S. soldiers have deserted from military since 2000: report printResizeButton();   Some 40,000 personnel from all branches of the U.S. military have deserted since 2000, U.S. media quoted Pentagon sources as saying Tuesday.   From the total, more than half had served in the U.S. Army, according to the report.   Anti-war organizations said that the mass desertions were due to the strong resistance to war which is more prevalent than the military has openly admitted.   "They (U.S. military) lied in Vietnam about the amount of opposition to the war and they're lying now," said Eric Seitz, an attorney who represents Army Lt. Ehren Watada, the first commissioned officer to refuse to join his brigade when it was sent to Iraq last month. He is now under military custody in Fort Lewis, Washington.   A 2002 Army report said that desertion was fairly constant but "tends to worsen during wartime."   Source: Xinhua   [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] the tax man cometh

[Michael Redler]

Hey Bob,I think your situation reinforces the idea that fuel/energy dependence isn't an OPEC thingand that the problem is home grown. If corporations and local governments didn't work together to limit the number of sources, you couldn't effectively tax it. I'm not against taxes, just how I'm taxed and what it's spent on (i.e. 750,000,000,000 on "defense").If my local government tried something like that with me, I'd seriously consider producer gas as a fuel. Let them try and noodle out a method of measuring and taxing CO and H2 by the cubic foot. The perfect fuel for a bureaucracy. The longer one waits to measure it, the less fuel their is to measure.:-)- RedlerP.S. I went to http://www.ozarker.org/and noticed that there is no "Recreational Bob" link. Shame on
 you.bob allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  the tax applies to any fuel produced and used on-road. I don't have the letter here in front of me, but as I recall it wanted to know how much I produced total and how much was used as on-road motor fuel. The tax is retroactive for 2005.DHAJOGLO wrote: Does the tax apply even if you are producing it as an "additive?"  -dave   On Monday, August 07, 2006 4:13 PM, bob allen wrote: Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:13:54 -0500 From: bob allen To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] the tax man cometh I recently received a letter from the Arkansas Department of finance. I am to herewith submit 22.5 cents per gallon of
 biodiesel produced. I guess that this happened because of an article that appeared in a statewide newspaper, concerning my manufacture of biodiesel as a student project. (Some pin-headed commercial producer felt that I should be paying my fair share of taxes), which I don't mind. Now if I can just figure out how to get the 50 cent-a-gallon produce tax credit. -- Bob Allen, http://ozarker.org/bob ___
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Re: [Biofuel] George Galloway _ Lebanon. View it while you can

[Michael Redler]

I picked upthe same story through another link (http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=508 ).In my opinion it's absolutely awesome! Galloway takes every word and every second he has on the airand drives home a point that too few want to touch. The foreign policy illusion generated by the U.S. and it's allies, the dehumanizing of victims in Palestine and Lebanon, the grossly one-sided stories broadcast by Western (American) media and the broadcaster who believe it. He doesn't even entertain the convoluted questionsbeing asked.Rupert Murdoch was specifically mentioned by name, thedistinction (or lack thereof)between terrorists and "freedom fighters" are exactly the kinds of things thatneed to flow through EVERY media outlet.Well done Mr.
 Galloway!!Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Check this interview out!  I am amazed they let him speak.  Kirkhttp://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-galloway_060806,00.html___
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Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville

[Michael Redler]

DHAJOGLO wrote: "I, for one, blame the Canadians and feel we should build a large wolf fence between us and Canada. I call it, 'The Maple Curtain!'"LOL!"Fromthe Yukon on the Pacific toLabrador in the Atlantic amaple curtain has descended across the Continent. Behind that line lie all the capitals of thecivilized states of the Western hemisphere. Vancouver, Windsor, Toronto, Halifax, Quebec (yes, Quebec too!); all these famous cities and the populations around them lie in what I must call theBeaver sphere...".Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   Nah Canadian wolves are too proud to enter the U.S.DHAJOGLO wrote:  On Monday,
 August 07, 2006  6:57 PM, JJJN wrote:  Date: Mon, 07 Aug 2006 16:57:27 -0700  From: JJJN  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Wolf attack near Grangeville...Don't get me wrong I like to see wolves but I struggle with   how they fit into the agricultural areas of Eastern Montana. I think you are struggling with the wrong question: how do we fit into the wolves habitat after having turned it into an agricultural area?  I, for one, blame the Canadians and feel we should build a large wolf fence between us and Canada.  I call it, "The Maple Curtain!"  ___
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Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap

[Michael Redler]

You're right-on Joe....thanks for the "translation".:-)- RedlerJoe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Hi Mike;There is never a 'free lunch' but throwing condensed water away is like throwing away some of the work you have done. Some of that energy is recovered by evaporating that water on the outside of the building on the condenser. But maybe that is what you are saying. ( I found your post a little confusingmaybe I need a coffee??)JoeMike Redler wrote:Yea. Juan's idea got my attention too.The inefficiencies due to the latent heat of vaporization go "poof!" since the final phase of that H2O is...humidity, right?
 That is to say, in a perfect world, vapor turned to condensation then back to vapor again after throwing it on the condenser (understanding that that there is no free lunch - 2nd law of thermo.).Re: "Does that mean that the list is closed to the bourgeois?":-)-Redler  [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] EV is not dead

[Michael Redler]

Hi Darryl,That was quite a read. You've done more research than I have on the subject. I've been relying more on my own analytical/theoretical skills rather than my own experience or the experience of others.I think we're pretty much on the same page though.Your comments on gravity make sense but, I think we can agree that on some hills, you risk getting a Darwin award if you don't brake.Wind drag is always a lossthat cannot be regained through any means (that I know of).I think we can also agree that regenerative braking is a function of how often one accelerates and decelerates by means other than those provided by ones environment (i.e. gravity). Sure, I can see driver training as a way to increase efficiency but, depending on where you're driving (this is the where it gets sticky), some terrain makes braking a must no matter
 how much training you have. I can easily imagine an argument betweensomeonein the Southwest and another in the Northeast U.S. disagreeing on the virtues of regenerative braking.- Redler[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Nuts, got bounced again.Mike Redler wrote: Darryll, you wrote: ?Personally, I like the Advanced DC motors. But then I think regen is over-rated. If you learn to drive so that you use the brakes as little as possible, then regen offers little advantage, for there is little braking energy for it to recoup. Good strategy for improving fuel economy in ICE vehicles too.? As we discussed earlier, the advantages of replacing an IC motor with an electric motor exist with conditions that require constantly
 changing demands for power - demands that the IC motor can?t closely match. Those conditions include frequent acceleration and deceleration. The advantages of regenerative braking exist under exactly the same conditions. So, if your statement is true, you can?t suggest that less braking causes regen to have little advantage without also suggesting that electric motors have little advantage under the same conditions.Actually, I can suggest electric motors have significant advantage inthis scenario, and I do. It comes from the physics of acceleration vs.deceleration for road vehicles, and driver behaviour.The following assumes level ground as an approximation that on averagemost vehicles start and end their daily cycle at the same place, aparking spot or driveway.When accelerating from a stop, the vehicle has to overcome inertia,rolling losses and aerodynamic drag. When decelerating,
 the vehicleonly has to overcome a (significant) fraction of inertia, as rollinglosses and aerodynamic drag are already braking forces. The secret iscoasting, allowing the rolling losses and aero drag to do as much of thebraking as possible. Gravity can also provide an effective brakingeffect under the right circumstances. Accelerating from a stop isessentially the only time the ICE engine is operating outside its designrange, because it would stall. Everything other speed should permit theICE to operate in its efficiency range via changing of gears, theextreme version being the CVT which is slowly gaining in popularity.Accelerating from a stop is where the series-wound DC motor reallyshines, developing maximum torque at zero RPM.I am only aware of one study that actually determined the benefits ofregenerative braking in real-world conditions. That was in the 1970'sby the USPS. Using their regular drivers, they put
 Gould electric Jeepconversions on regular delivery routes. That's a lot of stops andstarts, which should be ideal for regen. They enabled regen on somevehicles, and disabled it on others. The difference in range was about8%. (I only ever saw this report once, and in hardcopy format. Itbelonged to the Electric Vehicle Association of Canada, and I have noidea how to find it now.) The cost of implementing regen on most EVs issubstantial. On some AC drives, it is "built-in", but those systems areconsiderably more expensive than typical DC drives to begin with. Formost EVs, adding 10% more battery will provide more range advantage thanregen, for a lot less money.Training drivers to drive for fuel economy requires no modifications tothe vehicle, and can achieve gains of up to 30%.There are anecdotal reports that batteries last longer, and performanceis better throughout the drive with regen. This is mostly
 attributed todeveloping a surface charge on the batteries. That may be unique tolead-acid batteries.So, get in your EV, accelerate from stops like a maniac, then coast tothe extent possible, and let the environmental braking forces do most ofyour braking (rolling resistance, aero drag, gravity). If you only usethe brakes to hold the vehicle after it coasts to a stop, there is noenergy available to be collected via regen. It amazes me how often thistechnique permits me to avoid stopping at traffic lights. Because I amcreeping up on red lights, they have more time to change without forcingme to come to a complete stop. It won't work in every circumstance(notably when 

Re: [Biofuel] Future car: What will you be driving?

[Michael Redler]

Mike, I agree and certainly wouldn't rule anything out, especially with places like Berkley Labs developing PV with 50+ percent efficiencies.However, emerging energy storage technologies (like the supercap technology mentioned by Kirk), suggest a quick "fill up" and puts into question the need for any other on-board energy conversion technologies (i.e. solar, liquid fuel/IC engines, etc.).I'd imagine that nearly every renewable and alternative energy schemebeing discussed is now a possibility sincefast electrical storage could turn ourattention to stationary sources and not those which necessarily need to be integrated into the vehicle.- RedlerMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  But it would add a huge degree of efficiency,If the funds were there I'd enhance the battery back
 and include capacitors. My noodling was with an old Isuzu Trooper - lots of room up top for panels, and a lot of sre room to tinker.Here's one person's expiriment: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2005/08/solar-powered_t.phpKirk McLoren wrote: The photovoltaics are non essential. In fact it is arguable that non  concentrating cells are not a viable renewable enrgy source. The diesel on the other hand is the obvious answer and it is odd the  hybrids are gasoline. The battery bank would be better replaced with supercap technology  such as Skeltons (in prototype phase) but in the meantime we will have  to muddle through. Kirk */Ron Peacetree <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Back on the actual subject listed as the topic of this thread... A little digging has convinced me that a diesel-electric hybrid w/ photovoltaic cells on
 the the hood/roof/trunk could easily be the basis for vehicles that could completely replace the traditional gasoline/diesel based ground/water vehicles currently in use at acceptable levels of performance, economy, etc. (Air travel vehicles operate under more stringent constraints that I'm not sure this "diesel/electric w/ PV assist" power supply idea could satisfy.) A rotary diesel motor could supply as much as 2HP / liter; perhaps more if optimized for constant rpm. The battery problem should be solved by using fuel cells since they provide far more energy per unit weight. Until fuel cells are available, there are many new ideas for increasing even the efficiency of the "standard": the lead-acid battery (spin off company from Case or John Deer that gets ~2x the power/weight out of lead acid batteries IIRC?) that could fill in.
 For applications not as economically constrained, the "exotics" like Li-ion are of course an option. However, fuel cells seem to best any battery technology I've heard of. PV cells of as high as 42% efficiency are now reality; and I'm told by people in the that business that mass production would _significantly_ reduce their costs. This is a recipe for, say, a car, that fits all the constraints a normal consumer would have... ...and gets 100-200mpg while doing it. With these kind of fuel efficiencies and a little common sense as to what crops to use as the basis for biodiesel (ultimately I would think that a crop bred/engineered to be specialized for bio-diesel production would be the best solution...), the amount of farmland required for growing the crops needed to produce the biodiesel needs of a country would be _far_ less than any of
 the current estimates. Doing this would not only be "green" and conserve our petro-diesel resources for uses that so far they are the only unique source for, such as certain plastics and medical products,  It might also help Us avert the continuing escalation of violence in the Middle East that seems to be at the moment the most likely cause of WWIII. Where do I sign? And how do We get "our leaders" to pursue what seems to be an eminently logical course of action for anyone who loves their children and their planet? Ron Peacetree___
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Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap

[Michael Redler]

Nice.I'd be curious to see any documented changes in efficiency.- RedlerThomas Kelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Mike,When I installed an air conditioner a few weeks ago, I noticed that it didn't drip, and from outside I could hear a bubbling-popping sound. My father-in-law told me that a lot of the new air conditioners use the water they condense to "cool themeselves".Tom- Original Message - From: "Mike Redler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 7:15 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] GeoExchange, on the cheap "...I just put a plug on the exit hole of the tray of my window style ac unit and the fan starts to splash and spray water on the
 condenser." Brilliant! I like it. -Redler Juan Boveda wrote: Hello Mike Redler. I did have the same idea by observing big air conditioner units that uses  a spray of water on a cooling tower for evaporation of the hot water and recycle the fresh water for cooling the hot side heat exchanger or condenser. In my home air conditioner, I just put a plug on the exit hole of the  tray of my window style ac unit and the fan starts to splash and spray water  on the condenser. Humidity here during summer time seldom drops from 50% and it usually is around 70% if it is not raining. I send the condensed water from the evaporator to be used in hot  condenser, the spray was produced by the ac fan usually this happened
 after ? hour  of working time of the ac unit. If you need more water from start and if your house has running water  with enough pressure it is just as simple as put a perforated hose on top of  the condenser and adjust the water flow as to almost all the water is evaporated. Just let the water coming out the ac unit to be not more than  a few drops per minute. It is better not to waste a lot of running water. It is much efficient to use Water Evaporation. If my memory does not fool me (here I do not have the water humidity psychometric chart) the evaporation of water needs  about 520 Kilocalories/Kg of heat to evaporated 1 Kg of water, this means as cooling effect. Consider that the heat capacity of only 1 Kilocalorie for each Kg of water in the
 change of 1 degree Celsius. Best Regards. Juan Paraguay___
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[Biofuel] Fwd: UK Observer - Israeli pilots 'deliberately miss' targets

[Michael Redler]

I rec'd this on Sunday and thought some of you might be interested in it. I think it ties into an earlier thread "Israel Guilty of War Crimes" and how the Israeli government has their own version of "The Decider".- RedlerCraig Berman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: [iso-discuss] UK Observer - Israeli pilots 'deliberately miss'targetsDate: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 18:41:46 -0400It seems that just as Suzanne Swift and Ehran Watada are refusing to serve in Iraq, some Israeli soldiers are starting to question their orders! We'll have to see if this can become a trend and help end this brutal assault on Lebanon immediately. Interestingly, none of the US media will touch this story (or follow the continued persecution of US war resisters). 
   CraigIsraeli pilots 'deliberately miss' targets  Fliers admit aborting raids on civilian targets as concern grows over the reliability of intelligence  Inigo Gilmore at Hatzor Air Base, Israel  Sunday August 6, 2006  Observer  At least two Israeli fighter pilots have deliberately missed civilian targets in Lebanon as disquiet grows in the military about flawed intelligence, The Observer has learnt. Sources say the pilots were worried that targets had been wrongly identified as Hizbollah facilities.Voices expressing concern over the armed forces' failures are getting louder. One Israeli cabinet minister said last week: 'We gave the army so much money. Why are we getting
 these results?' Last week saw Hizbollah's guerrilla force, dismissed by senior Israeli military officials as 'ragtag', inflict further casualties on one of the world's most powerful armies in southern Lebanon. At least 12 elite troops, the equivalent of Britain's SAS, have already been killed, and by yesterday afternoon Israel's military death toll had climbed to 45.As the bodies pile up, so the Israeli media has begun to turn, accusing the military of lacking the proper equipment, training and intelligence to fight a guerrilla war in Lebanon. Israel's Defence Minister, Amir Peretz, on a tour of the front lines, was confronted by troubled reserve soldiers who told him they
 lacked proper equipment and training.Israel's chief of staff, Major-General Dan Halutz, had vowed to wipe out Hizbollah's missile threat within 10 days. These claims are now being mocked as rockets rain down on Israel's north with ever greater intensity, despite an intense and highly destructive air bombardment.  As one well-connected Israeli expert put it: 'If we have such good information in Lebanon, how come we still don't know the hideout of missiles and launchers?... If we don't know the location of their weapons, why should we
 know which house is a Hizbollah house?'  As international outrage over civilian deaths grows, the spotlight is increasingly turning on Israeli air operations. The Observer has learnt that one senior commander who has been involved in the air attacks in Lebanon has already raised concerns that some of the air force's actions might be considered 'war crimes'.Yonatan Shapiro, a former Blackhawk helicopter pilot dismissed from reserve duty after signing a 'refusenik' letter in 2004, said he had spoken with Israeli F-16 pilots in recent
 days and learnt that some had aborted missions because of concerns about the reliability of intelligence information. According to Shapiro, some pilots justified aborting missions out of 'common sense' and in the context of the Israeli Defence Force's moral code of conduct, which says every effort should be made to avoiding harming civilians.Shapiro said: 'Some pilots told me they have shot at the side of targets because they're afraid people will be there, and they don't trust any more those who give them the coordinates and targets.'  He added: 'One pilot told me he was asked to hit a house on a hill, which was supposed to be a place from where Hizbollah was launching Katyusha missiles. But he was afraid civilians were in the house, so he shot next to the house ...'Pilots are always being told they will be judged on results, but if the results are hundreds of dead civilians while Hizbollah is still able to fire all these rockets, then something is very wrong.'So far none of the pilots has publicly refused to fly missions but some are wobbling, according to Shapiro. He said: 'Their target could be a house firing a cannon at Israel and it could be a house full of children, so it's a real dilemma; it's not black and white. But ... I'm calling on them to refuse, in order save our country from self-destruction.'Meron Rappoport, a former editor at the Israeli daily Haaretz and military analyst, criticised the air force's methods for selecting targets: 'The impression is that information is sometimes lacking. One squadron leader admitted the evidence used to determine attacks on
 cars is sometimes circumstantial - meaning that if people are in an area after Israeli forces warned them to leave, the assumption is that those left 

Re: [Biofuel] worth reading -an insight into politics and corporations - 4% of population is psychopathic

[Michael Redler]

Crrraaazy!? What's that?Remember the movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest? It was actually dangerous to have your emotions (relatively) in balance.- RedlerMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Or, it takes a certain degree of madness to be sane in this world. You have to be a touch crazy to be able to be happy and go on with your life given what's going on.-WeaverKirk McLoren wrote: Of course there is a distribution but there is demarcation. A criteria  is set and 4% +- some deviation qualify as full blown nutters. We arent injection molded thermoplastic caricatures. There is a living  dynamic. But the author builds a good case that there is a 4% you  wouldnt leave alone
 with your children. Nor should you leave them in  office. Or on a board of directors etc etc. poor perception and slow  learning were in the next 16%. They are the people that exhibit  psychopathic behavior if their boss is a psychopath. On their own they  are somewhat inhibited. The 4% are worse. Much worse. These 4% are  destroying civilization while the "sheep" look for the good in man.  The sheep better deal with the wolves. It isnt getting better on its own. http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/sanity_1.PdF Read the classic, and the article. Then decide if the author is  chicken little and the sky is falling.  Kirk */[EMAIL PROTECTED]/* wrote: While I haven't read the books, I would be inclined to suspect that the population is not divided into a small minority who are 100% sociopathic plus a majority who are not at all sociopathic,
 but that there is something like a continuum with the "pure" sociopaths at one end. I suspect further that there might be several factors involved, perhaps * slow social learning; Eysenck's "extraversion" * poor perception of other peoples' feelings * indifference to other peoples' feelings Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada On Sat, 5 Aug 2006, Kirk McLoren wrote:  http://cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm  Provided you are not forcibly stopped, you can do anything at all.  If you are born at the right time, with some access to family fortune, and you have a special talent for whipping up other people's hatred and sense of deprivation, you can arrange to kill large numbers of unsuspecting people. With enough money, you can accomplish this from far
 away, and you can sit back safely and watch in satisfaction. [...]  Crazy and frightening - and real, in about 4 percent of the population [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] worth reading -an insight into politics and corporations - 4% of population is psychopathic

[Michael Redler]

"Psychopaths can't be described as emotionally imbalanced."Sure. That makes sense. I think of a psychopath assomeone having a personality disorder which doesn't necessarily need to show any particular kind of emotion at all. Emotions aren't a prerequisite for amoral behavior (for example). Am I right?Anyway, I think the social commentaryin that film seems very fitting in many conversations about corporate behavior. Maybe the word I should have used in my observation is "compassion" rather than emotion.Although the story takes place in a mental institution, it doesn't exactly fit in this thread and I apologize if it's too far off topic. It's just that Nurse Ratched reminds me of some of the characters we see runningbig corporations.- RedlerKeith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
 Crrraaazy!? What's that?Remember the movie One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest? It was actually dangerous to have your emotions (relatively) in balance.- RedlerEmotional imbalance is not at all the same as being a psycho/sociopath. Psychopaths can't be described as emotionally imbalanced.Anyway, 4% of the population is way too high an estimate, IMHO. This is one distortion:  learning were in the next 16%. They are the people that exhibit  psychopathic behavior if their boss is a psychopath.I've asked this question before: Is Warren Anderson a psychopathic killer? See:http://snipurl.com/oxks[Biofuel] More about BhopalIn effect yes, but in fact he's just a corporate slave. If you allow corporations to behave as theyd like (?), they'll be sociopathic.
 Their nature (?) is to subordinate everything to the bottom line, which is inevitably sociopathic. See eg.:http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg62040.htmlRe: [Biofuel] I always new they were worthlessThink I'll post this again:That said, part of my point is that corporations are a reflection of those humansmaking the big decisions at the top of the corporation.Not so. That's where we diverge. It's the other way round, but it's worse than a reflection. This isn't just my opinion or conjecture, it's solidly grounded and well established. It's an important subject here, often discussed, there are very good resources in the list archives on corporate nature and behaviour.Did you read the post about Leopold Kohr etc? If not have a read, if you will:http://snipurl.com/ox8m[Biofuel] the end of big
 biodiesel?Anyway, here's some info on a, um, retired CEO named Warren Anderson and a CEO named Michael Parker:http://snipurl.com/oxks[Biofuel] More about BhopalPlease give it a read, it's important to get the background straight. The bit about Anderson is towards the end.Do you think Bhopal was (is) an exception? There are those who present a substantial case for the Bhopal disaster being business-as-usual, it's a symbol of our times, not an exception. There's more in the archives about that too. Union Carbide knowingly and deliberately put the lives of an entire Indian city at risk in order to save $37.68 per day. The Ford Pinto was $10 each, wasn't it? That's all history now? Dream on!This is what it says about UC CEO Warren Anderson, after describing his role in it:#1 corporate criminal, ex-UC CEO
 Warren Anderson, an international fugitive from charges of culpable homicide and an extradition order from the government of India for the past 12 years after jumping bail there, was unearthed in 2002 by a UK newspaper and Greenpeace living a life of luxury in New York State. American authorities had always insisted they did not know his whereabouts. "If a team of journalists and Greenpeace managed to track down India's most wanted man in a matter of days, how seriously have the U.S. authorities tried to find him all these years?" asked Greenpeace campaigner Casey Harrell in the U.S. Greenpeace videotaped Anderson and handed him a warrant for his arrest. He denied who he was and then ran inside the house. The journalists discovered that Anderson's local golf club subscription costs $2700 a year, more than five times
 what Union Carbide's victims in Bhopal got for a lifetime of illness and suffering.Do you think his pals at the golf club think he's a brutal and remorseless mass-killer? Or that his wife and kids think that? I'm sure they all think he was just doing his job and got a raw deal, and so does he.So who's true nature is he reflecting, Mike? Human nature? His own nature? I'm sure he wouldn't poison his own kids. But check out the resources at the end of the message above to see what he did to other people's kids. Thousands of them, and it's still happening right now. Did he do it, or did Union Carbide do it? Is it Dow CEO Michael Parker who's continuing the atrocity, or is it Dow - who brought us Agent Orange, after all, among other things?http://www.safe2use.com/ca-ipm/01-05-05.htmDow Chemical's Nasty Little Secret - Agent Orange Dump
 found under New Zealand TownHaving read the whole Bhopal post, would you class this particular ongoing corporate behaviour 

Re: [Biofuel] Have You Hugged Your Hummer Today?

[Michael Redler]

Kirk,I respectfully disagree.By definition,hybridsare about throwing the apples and orangesin the same basket.(IMO), what makes one hybrid scheme better than another is the region it's being usedand what type of fuel(or fuels) are most abundant and best suited for promoting sustainability.- Redler  Kirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Comparing a gasoline hybrid with a diesel is apples and oranges. How about comparing a diesel hybrid with a diesel.KirkJJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  You
 folks are all WRONG,This is simply an application of the same economic principals that the current administration is applying to the American Economy -I just used the same formulas they did on the American economy to the Hummer and the Hybrid and the Hummer wins hands down - see it's just like the Pres said the deficit is going down.Whats the matter? What is it you don't get?And if you haven't figured out how it works I have some tax cuts for the rich to sell you. (won't cost you a dime)I won't be around to reply back for awhile I am going to trade in my Honda for a Hummer with a Go Green bumper sticker. NOTLaterJim[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] {Spam?} Hezbollah, Hamas and Israel: Everything You Need To Know

[Michael Redler]

Well done!What would happen if this story were broadcast on CNN? Not only would a large U.S.demographic be in a state of shock and confusion but,if eventually believed, could open Pandora's box and cause that same demographic to start askingsome dangerous questions.Revisionist history and historiansare being attacked (remember Ward Churchill?) and the reasons areexplained in Alexander Cockburn's article. It doesn't matter what's being said or where and when it occurred, as long as itthreatens the squeaky clean image of the U.S., it's government agenda or those who want you to listen to THEM and their version of history. Equally important is howthey value non-information. It's easiernot to report something than to fabricate a story designedto whitewash it.Our culture is so steeped in it's own propaganda
 thatif (all the) the truth were told, it would not onlyreveal theU.S. government's hand in the proverbial cookie jar, it would take "conventional wisdom" in our culture and stand it on it's head. People are not prepared for that. Besides, who's going to pay to replace all those high school history books?- RedlerKeith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn07212006.htmlJuly 21, 2006A perilous excursion into the distant past, starting seven whole weeks agoHezbollah, Hamas and Israel: Everything You Need To KnowBy ALEXANDER COCKBURNAs the tv networks give unlimited airtime to Israel's apologists, the message rolls out that no nation, least of all Israel, can permit bombardment or armed incursion across its
 borders without retaliation. [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] was...Our cash is becoming trackable

[Michael Redler]

It's just a matter of time before the Girl Scouts get a hold of that technology.The next time I'm at the mall on a day when they'resellingcookies, I won't be able to get rid of them by saying I'm broke....and youDON'T want to mess with Girl Scouts. They'll chase you for miles!- RedlerAltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Also, just think of the possabilities for merchants.With an RFID reader, they will be able to tell how much cashyou have in your wallettallex ---Original Message--- From: Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] was...Our cash is becoming trackable Sent: 27 Jul '06 20:28
  well if the microwave or other high field strength methods can't be used for fear of setting the money ablaze due to the embedded metalic strips, I got a feeling a simple hammer blow might do the drick.LOL  Joe   [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] shedding fat for oil

[Michael Redler]

Hi Jonathan,From what I can tell, there are few logical reasons for a 55mph speed limit. From a mileage point of view, theratings on carsreported by the manufacturer arefrom tests performed at 49mph in order to legally mislead the public and make the numbers look more favorable. That would imply that, from a mileage point of view, 55 conserves fuel but is really just another shade of gray.Please don't misunderstand. I try to keep my Civic near 55 when I can, and I'm not necessarily against it but, I don't see the season for that particular number.As for safety, slower speeds don't necessarily save lives. The German Autobahn has no speed limit in most places but, has a fatality rate approximately 12% less than that of the US. I believethe statistic I read was per mile of highway.I apologize for not having my sources
 readily available.As far as transmission and engine timing is concerned, I think it depends on the manufacturer and the country of origin. For exampleBMW's are required tolegitimately deliver on whatever the speedometer says they can.  MikeJonathan Hardin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  I'm curious about something. In particular the concept of limiting top speed to 55mph. I understand this being important on any car build/imported into the US before the speed limit change in the mid 90's. However, have car companies not modified their timing/ratios on the transmissions of vehicles built after this point in time? (I drive a 1990 Camry so the top speed of 55mph is what I try to stick with, but I am curious about
 newer cars). I know the adage about 55mph is from before the speed limit change; and it seems simple for the car manufacters to change the ratios to move the best ratios up to a 60 or 65mph area rather then 55mph. Just curious Jonathan  On 7/10/06, Kurt Nolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   Mike Weaver wrote: I'm 6'1" and my 2003 Golf is ok.I have a friend who's 6'3" and he seems ok in the passenger seat...Germans are often pretty big people. Size and fit is one of the reasons I bought the VW.I don't fit into  Miatas, tho'.I test drove a Golf before I bought the Lancer (which became my mother'scar when the SUV was totaled; best wreck
 to ever happen since nobody washurt and it took two SUVs off the roads); I didn't fit worth crap in that driver's seat. *Shrugs.* Different people different habits?-Kurt___
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Re: [Biofuel] GM is obsolete - non-GM biotech now the first choice

[Michael Redler]

What?I didn't even know Darwin had a dog!...poor beagle.Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:i dont really understand why genetically engineered food became popular anyway, why didnt they just do it like farmers have for centuries and breed their plants by hand. even Darwin did it on the HMS Beagle and all it took was a pair of tweezers (dont laugh Mike(s) i know your perverted minds work well together)JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] Batch next week

[Michael Redler]

I'm flattered.It's true though. I've developed all kinds of bad habits on my own.   Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Troo. I joined it to argue with Redler.Keith Addison wrote:Anyone in the Chicago area brewing a batch next week? A friend of mineup near lincolnshire wants to watch someone do a batch and learn from it. Why learn other people's bad habits when you can develop bad habits of your very own? LOL!True though - "you don't need anyone to hold your hand": NOTE: You don't need to join the Biofuel list to learn how to make biodiesel. Start here: Where do I start? Follow the instructions, step by step. Study everything on that
 page and the next page and at the links in the text. It tells you everything you need to know.Many list members who've done it themselves say the same thing. If you ask novice questions at the list that have been answered many times before, that's what you'll be told (or asked to check the list archives, see below).There's a lot to learn, but it's simple, and you don't have to be a chemist to do it, very few biodieselers are chemists or engineers.Thousands of ordinary people have done this without any other help, and so can you. You don't need anyone to hold your hand, and you don't need to find another biodieseler in your area first so you can see their set-up in action. Do it yourself, you'll be just fine.http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html#learn___
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[Biofuel] 404 error

[Michael Redler]

I stumbled across this error message a while back and spent the afternoon in an existential haze.http://tsbolton.com/bertramslair/error.htm- Redler___
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[Biofuel] Presidential Handlers

[Michael Redler]

Presidents come and go. Their handlers stay around for decades.http://www.frankolsonproject.org/Articles/Steinberg-Cheney.pdf(Page 2 of 12)- Redler___
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Re: [Biofuel] Tanks for storing Biodiesel

[Michael Redler]

Oh yea? Well, I use JB Weld to do my own dental fillings and crowns.Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  That's nuthin' - I once used JB Weld to rebuild the front of the crank where the harmonic balancer bolt to on a Ford 460. Ran for years...[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] Tanks for storing Biodiesel

[Michael Redler]

If only I were that flexible.  Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Is that how you ended up with your lips glued to your ***? I wondered about thatMichael Redler wrote: Oh yea? Well, I use JB Weld to do my own dental fillings and crowns.  */Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:  That's nuthin' - I once used JB Weld to rebuild the front of the crank where the harmonic balancer bolt to on a Ford 460. Ran for years...  [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] Tanks for storing Biodiesel

[Michael Redler]

By the way, wouldn't it be a trick to type a message with your lips glued to your ***?Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Is that how you ended up with your lips glued to your ***? I wondered about thatMichael Redler wrote: Oh yea? Well, I use JB Weld to do my own dental fillings and crowns.  */Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:  That's nuthin' - I once used JB Weld to rebuild the front of the crank where the harmonic balancer bolt to on a Ford 460. Ran for years...  [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] Class Warfare: The Minimum Wage Goes Down

[Michael Redler]

Hi John,I don't mean to be a pain in the ass but, your focus is on company profits, re-issue of currency, and monetary greed- not a common denominatorin an explanation on why both capitalist and communist societies would fail.At least for now, it's not an explanation that makes sense to me.More to the point, governments irrespective of the model they follow, fail because citizens do not realize the importance of participation (IMHO).- Redler  John Mullan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  I believe that either economic model (communist or capitalist) is destined to collapse, sooner or later. One of the main factors being greed. Greed is what causes inflation. Companies are driven to make
 more profit. People need more income to purchase the higher priced items they need AND "want" (ie; form of greed).In my area, I know many people earning minimum wage (Canada) and even simple one-room apartments tax their ability to have any disposable income. But there are also many companies that would be hard pressed to increase their prices such as to pay significantly more than minimum wage and still have a decent customer base.Add to the picture the coming "death" of cheap energy and the picture becomes even more bleak.Economic crash and the re-issue of currency has happened before and has to happen again. To survive, eliminate your debt and try desperately to own all your property out-right.Just my two-cents worth.Cheers,John[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] Class Warfare: The Minimum Wage Goes Down

[Michael Redler]

"...do we really think if companies are forced to pay their workers more that they'll just suck up the extra cost and not raise prices?"Sure...when they are employee owned.The salaries of CEO's are hundreds of times more than their employees. That sucking sound youmighthave heardis the cost of feeding the parasites at the top of the food chain.- RedlerKurt Nolte [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Keith Addison wrote: The GOP just shafted the working people of America. By rejecting an  attempt to raise the minimum wage, the Republican-controlled Senate  showed that it is far more interested in lining the pockets of its  campaign contributors than - as Paul Krugman wrote in a New York
  Times op-ed on Monday - arriving at a "new New Deal" and working to  "rebuild our middle class." The 52-46 vote was eight short of the 60  needed for approval. (The measure drew the support of eight  Republicans --four of these are up for reelection in the fall.) Why does this not surprise me? Sen. Edward Kennedy's amendment would have raised the wage from the  current $5.15 an hour to $7.25 - the first raise in a decade. "The  minimum wage," as economist Gwendolyn Mink, makes clear, is supposed  to guarantee an income floor to keep full-time wage-earners out of  poverty. But today, the federal minimum wage guarantees abject  poverty for workers... nearly $6,000 per year below the federal  poverty line for a family of three." I'm all for a minimum wage increase, but do we really think if companies are forced to pay their workers more that they'll
 just suck up the extra cost and not raise prices? I have a feeling prices would have skyrocketed if this had gone through. It would have put my present wage at under minimum.  [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] The Death of US Engineering

[Michael Redler]

  Will,I earned my B.S. in mechanical engineering technology in 1992 and  worked as a mechanical design engineer for seven years. Frustrated by  the lack of legitimate and rewarding work, I earned a BSEE in 2000 with  the idea that you must apply theory to something which has no moving  parts. The math and applied science has to stay in tact. That turned  out to be partially true and I worked on analog circuit design and  motor controls for another seven years.Anyway, my advice to you is stay sharp, learn what you can and go for  that degree (if that's your ambition) because eventually, the  industries which were abandoned will need help in the coming recovery,  one which (IMO) will last a generation....an optimists point of view of one of the most destructive and incompetent US administrations ever.  -Redler  Will Kelleher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Maybe now isn't that best time to get an electrical engineering degree :-/Will KOn 6/23/06, D. Mindock   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  The Death of US   EngineeringBy Paul Craig RobertsThe   May payroll jobs report released June 2 by the Bureau of LaborStatistics   confirms the jobs pattern for the 21st century US economy:employment growth   is limited to domestic services.In May the economy created only
 67,000   private sector jobs. Jobestimates for the previous two months were reduced   by 37,000.The new jobs are as follows: professional and business   services, 27,000;education and health services, 41,000; waitresses and   bartenders,10,000. Manufacturing lost 14,000 jobs.Total hours worked   in the private sector declined in May.Manufacturing hours worked are 6.6   percent less than when the recoverybegan four and one-half years   ago.American economists and policymakers are in denial about the effect   ofjobs offshoring on US employment. Corporate lobbyists have   purchasedfraudulent studies from economists that claim offshoring results in   moreUS employment rather than less. The same lobbyists have   spreaddisinformation that the US does not graduate enough engineers and   thatthey must import foreigners on work
 visas.[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] Worldwide oil consumption seen soaring

[Michael Redler]

I'm with you on that one Will.   And if regenerative braking  becomes commonplace in electric vehicles, think of the energy savings  when the bulk of your off-highway miles comes from wind resistance and  not acceleration.Imagine the energy recycled from a 2000lb car accelerating from zero to sixty miles per hour in 10 seconds.Assuming a regenerative breaking system with an efficiency of 100% (for  the sake of conversation, electric motors/generators are pretty  efficient), I did some calculations and came up with approximately .01  gallons (1.28oz fl) of gasoline each time that car accelerates. That's  what's lost today and maybe gained repeatedly during every trip in  every car in the future.Something not taken into consideration by people like George Monbiot (Re: "Feeding Cars or People").Of course, cars may become lighter (with any luck) and the fuel saved  will be on the acceleration side instead of recycling
 energy during  braking.Even if the energy doesn't come from gasoline in the future, the same principle applies - significant energy savings.- Redler_  Calculations:60mph = 26.8m/sec  (26.8/10)ft/sec^22000lbs=907KgF=ma=907*2.6m/sec^2=2431Ndist= .5at^2 =.5*2.68*100=134mWork=Fd=2431N*134m=325788Nm=309Btu309Btu/(125,000Btu per gallon)=.00247 gallons.00247gal/(25% efficiency for internal combustion engines)=.01 gallons=1.28ozflWill Kelleher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Everyone,The  only reasonable solution to the energy crisis is solar! It's free  and basically infinite. All we have to do is develop some better  solar cells and batteries (or
 those new capacitors that everyone is  talking about) to power our electric engines! Will KOn 6/26/06, Mike Redler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  "The bottom line is that the world has to go Hydrogen."Every  once in a while we find a post that challenges years of research and  discussion and asks everyone to take a giant step back and re-examine  ideas on a particular issue long after a consensus has been reached, as  if we've missed something. Even though it's discouraging, I would be willing to re-examine an issueif new evidence reveals itself. In fact, I would consider it crucial.But, what's most discouraging is when a forum discusses energy strategy  for years, realizes that a
 comprehensive energy strategy will involvenumerous schemes for renewable energy and biofuels, then finds a post inthat forum that includes a statement to the effect of: "The answer is...".  The oil industry has made us dependent on it, even when it's not thebest source of energy for a given application. It has brought men topower who have influenced the highest levels of government to ensure  that competitive alternatives are squashed. We've learned that a singleenergy source which fosters a dependence on it due to the exclusivity ofthe raw materials or technologies, provides a substitute for our current  dependency on oil. At it's worst, we know that such a dependency bringsto power those who will encourage a government to help them exploit oreven militarily control other countries.Although I keep an open mind toward all energy technologies (including  hydrogen), I encourage you not to place all importance on
 one.-RedlerMike Weaver wrote: You all know perfectly well the answer is Dilithium Crystals.No arguments, please.   robert and benita rabello wrote: chem.dd wrote: The bottom line is that the world has to go Hydrogen.  Are you SURE you want to go there in this forum?I'd be laughing if your proposition wasn't so sad. robert luis rabello "The Edge of Justice"   Adventure for Your Mind http://www.newadventure.ca Ranger Supercharger Project Page  
 http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.org  http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html  Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to
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Re: [Biofuel] Al Gore interview

[Michael Redler]

 I'd like to know what happened since his last campaign. Did he  have a vision quest or something? Maybe he broke loose from a political  sleeper hold.   Do you remember how his opponents on the right  nicknamed him the "wooden Indian"? It's a name that's wrong on many  levels but, the point I'm making here is that he didn't seem to fight  back. It's like he was sedated or something. What about the whole  "inventing the Internet" thing? He was viciously attacked and I felt  embarrassed just to watch it.Although I've never been a big fan of Al, I'd really like to see another player on the field - the left side of the field.-Redler  P.S. Agh! I used a sports metaphores!  Mark Manchester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Glad you saw it.  Yes, Gore sounds like such a cool guy!  I guess  it's
 just more on the Buy the Administration shenanegans.  Block this  great guy, get the richer one into office.JesseOn Jun 20, 2006, at 11:24 PM, JJJN wrote: Mark, I was in a Hotel last night in Bismarck North Dakota, I got to see the whole interview.  I must say I am ready to see the movie.  I wish more people could have seen Al in this light about 6 years ago. Jim mark manchester wrote: Ha-HAH!  Same post, new title.  This is a fantastic interview,   guys, to which there has been no response at all~!  Read!  Or else let's   talk about our lawns.  (Lawns are important too, don't get all biofuelly on   me..) Al Gore interview, last month, about his global warming platform   and movie. I missed it, maybe you did too.  Jesse
 http://www.macleans.ca/culture/films/article.jsp?  content=20060522_127258_127 258___
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Re: [Biofuel] Freakonomics - in defence of

[Michael Redler]

Doug wrote: "I do agree with you that most present day economists are in an extreme state of denial regarding their relationship to moral issues."I would agree that there is a detachment but, I'm not sure that it's denial. I mean, denial is a defense mechanism, right?Have they become defensive or do they see a close attachment tomoral issues as a leash which keeps their research withincurrent moral boundaries.I want to be careful not to make blanket statements because some economists may depend on moral issues because it's within the scope of their research. Those who don't include those issues (IMO) have grown accustomed tocertain methods and havecreated their own obstacles in reaching their objective.Personally, I'mequally interested in the public reaction to economists research. I think the degree by which peopleinterpret research as a call to action is a measure of howour culture submits to
 fear and hatred....my $.02  MikeDoug Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Hi RobertI'm afraid that I have to disagree your general dismissal of Levitt Dubner's book Freakonomics. Not all of the book was particularly grippingbut I thought the book provided ammunition for both the conservative andliberal camps. The correlation between legalize abortion in the US and thedramatic decline in some crime rates was controlled for other factors suchas increased police budgets, stiffer penalties, altered policing methods,etc. yet Levitt was still able to attribute a large majority of thediminished crime rate to legalized abortion. For me, the argument clincherwas that several states legalized
 abortion before Roe vs. Wade and thosestates had crime rates fall before the rest of the country. The author evenstated that legalize abortion was clearly not the direct cause of a declinein the crime rate. Rather Levitt proposed that perhaps children who werenot rejected at birth by their parents are more likely behave in a sociallycondoned manner.Nor was all of the research in the book based strictly on correlationalanalysis. The section dealing with drug dealers who live with their motherswas based on evidence obtained from some sociological fieldwork thatrecovered a detailed set of accounting books and records used by a MBA gradturned drug kingpin.I do agree with you that most present day economists are in an extreme stateof denial regarding their relationship to moral issues. That doesn'tnecessarily mean that the analytical tools they have developed over theyears cannot be used for good. The burgeoning
 fields of ecological and truecost economics are two examples of the application of the statisticaleconomic tools being used to address some of the issues that concern manypeople on this list. I just hope that they hurry up and spread the word alittle faster, actually a lot faster. You may want to check out this linkas a place to starthttp://adbusters.org/metas/eco/truecosteconomics/economists.htmlDoug-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of robert andbenita rabelloSent: June 20, 2006 12:38 AMTo: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: Re: [Biofuel] FreakonomicsDarryl McMahon wrote:There is an oblique reference to this in the archives. I have justfinished reading the book, and recommend that people put it on theirreading lists. (No time like the present to get on your publiclibrary's
 waiting list.)Yes, I think I'm the one who referenced it. This is one of mystockbroker sister's favorite books.I thoroughly enjoyed the book, even learned a thing or two. I was awareof the gun-related items, but I had not previously made the crime ratedrop connection in the U.S. with Roe vs. Wade.The causal relationships the author mentions are tangential, atbest. I'm sure a correlation can be made with the drop in crime rateversus GDP too. In fact, I'll bet you could correlate a drop in crimerate with the introduction of Viagra . . .Nice piece of de-spinning work. So many more subjects need more suchtreatment.It's a great book for NeoCons. From the epilogue:"But the fact of the matter is that Freakonomics-style thinkingsimply doesn't traffic in morality. As we suggested near the beginningof this book, if
 morality represents an ideal world, then economicsrepresents the actual world.If only we had reliable numbers . . . If only we could tabulate howmuch it REALLY costs to rape the environment, destroy human life andelevate the welfare of the wealthy over the welfare of the poor. At itscore, morality IS economics, but the paradigm is upside down."The most likely result of having read this book is a simple one: youmay find yourself asking a lot of questions. Many of them will lead tonothing. But some will produce answers that are interesting, evensurprising."Or entirely stupid. Take your pick!Sorry Darryl, but I'm simply NOT impressed . . .robert luis rabello"The Edge of Justice"Adventure for Your Mindhttp://www.newadventure.ca___
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Re: [Biofuel] DIE MICRO$OFT!!!!

[Michael Redler]

Go Jason Go!Jason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  i finally cracked to the point where i went to bed angry last night. M$ is really tweaking my tail and ive decided to take on the Hat. Linux FEDORA, here i come!!!JasonICQ#: 154998177MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (most likely to get me)___
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Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future

[Michael Redler]

Kirk,It's a very novel approach but, with all due respect, I thinkthe thermodynamics of this process needs a closer look.The origins of all mechanical energy can (eventually) be traced back to temperature changes. So, your intentions are in the right place.Thermal expansion as part of a cycle of combustionisa function of how low the mass of fuel and air is in comparison to the temperature during combustion. This not only causes a greater delta T by simple temperature comparison but, it also effects fuel density as explained by the ideal gas equation, PV=nRT.I haven't taken a thermo class in about fourteen years so,this observation could be refined. I'm going by memory here.MikeKirk McLoren [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Because it will absorb solar radiation.  and since there is a suspension transfer to the air will be rapid.  This all happens BEFORE ignition. Then oxidation does the final rise in temperature. Much higher delta T with same investment in O2 and hydrocarbon. And the hydrocarbon is nearignition point so unburned is not as much of a problem. If tapioca was black and finely divided that would be ok too. Assuming it was water free. Sugar has a lot of water too. - and it isnt the best solar absorber.I always managed to take milk for my coffee. That powdered crap isnt fit for pigs. In a pinch take canned milk.KirkJoe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Why pray tell
 COAL dust then? Many dusts are combustible. How about tapioca? How about icing sugar? Ever throw coffeemate into your campfire? (stand well back if you try thisunless it is part of a ritual dance of course)lolJoeKirk McLoren wrote: Actually a solar/coaldust hybrid could have potential. Putting solar  heat into air is difficult to do speedily and coal dust could be finely  dispersed. The bottom end could be solar. Certainly save on emissions  and help achieve complete combustion.A cylinder with a quartz window.  Kirk [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] Back to the future - THE TRUTH

[Michael Redler]

Thanks Weaver!...if only his dream could be kept alive!Gridlock would take on a whole new meaning and I'd open a burger joint (pun intended) downtown.:-)-RedlerMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Uh, Keith, hate to burst your bubble, but it is well-established that Rudolph Diesel designed his"engine" primarily to atomize hemp oil, in order to reap its psychopharmacological benefits. It was really just a big metal bong.The production of rotational torque was a side effect, and neccessary to keep the law enforcement people off his back. It wassomewhat later, at a "diesel party," that an attendee (the Cheech Marin of his day) said "23 skidoo, man, we should put this device
 into ahorseless carriage and drive around, then everyone could share the effects." This they did, and the Roaring Twenties were born. The Jazz Age wasnot due to bathtub gin, but rather hemp oil smoke blanketing the cities. New York City, and in particular Wall Street, had the largestconcentration of hemp oil powered cars, and hence most of the frenzy started there. People did not buy stocks because of any"irrational exuberance;" they were stoned.It all came crashing down when John D Rockefeller of Standard oil got hemp oil outlawed as a motor fuel, and forced the country to burn petroleum instead.Once people sobered up, they quit buying stock, and the Great Depression started.If only we would go back to burning hemp oil our problems would be over.Please correct your "Facts:" below, and I would appreciate it if you could devote an entire part on the JtF site to getting the truth out. Also,if you
 could put a "sponsored by Mike Weaver's Hemp Oil Engines - just 599.99 payable in cash" and a link to my website that would be great.-WeaverKeith Addison wrote: * Rudolf Diesel, the inventor of the diesel engine, designed it to run on vegetable and seed oils like hemp. In fact, when the diesel engine was first introduced at the World's Fair in 1900, it ran on peanut oil. Aarghh!!! Not the old Rudolf and the Peanut Oil fairytale again!Facts:1893 Rudolf Diesel patents the diesel engine.1900 Rudolf Diesel is twice awarded the Grand Prix at both Paris World Fairs (1900 and 1910) for inventing and developing his engine.But no peanut oil. The true story:"... excerpts from some of Dr Diesels' work, that he published 1912 and 1913, where he states that it was the Otto Company
 that ran one of his engines on peanut oil at the request of the French government during the 1900 World Fair. He later conducted some trails where he determined fuel consumption and assessed operability. He also mentions similar successful experiments in St. Petersburg using castor oil and animal oils." - Darren Hill"It WASN'T him! I recently borrowed his book "The Development of the Diesel Engine" -afaik the last one he published until he drowned himself in the Channel. All kinds of fuels that had been tested are described there, from coal dust over weird chemical mixtures that had been sent to Diesel by the industry to all sorts of crude oil and even tar-oil. Vegoil just got about 4 lines- remarking that it was the French "Otto-Company" (yes the Otto-engine!) that ran Diesel's engine on peanut oil: "The engine was built for crude oil and was used
 without any modification on vegoil."..."it worked so well that only a few insiders took notice of this insignificant circumstance." (Diesel, Rudolf. 1913. Die Entstehung des Dieselmotors" 1st reprint by Braun, Hans-Joachim (Ed). 1984. Moers: Steiger. Page 115.)." - Stephan HelbigBestKeith  [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] mixing ethoxide (again)

[Michael Redler]

How about a stir bar and a magnetic stir plate (on a bigger scale).Something that size may need to be worked up from scratch. The good news is that seal issues would go away.Of course, if you needa fitting at the bottom for a transfer pump, forget everything I said.-RedlerJason Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  it would be contained, not saying i would like a spill, but it wouldnt be a mess all over. im just exploring my options (its food grade stainless pump from a big iced tea maker)- Original Message - From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 8:49 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] mixing ethoxide (again) What
 is the problem with using a stirring motor? Dude think about what you are suggesting. What if you spring a leak on the outlet side of the pump somewhere? Do you really want to be spraying that Sh** around your place? Tink about it. Joe Jason Katie wrote: has anyone tried using a pump to mix the catalyst itself? i have 3 small pumps laying around and planned to use 2 for the oil mixing and moving,  but wondered if i could use the 3rd for mixing the catalyst more quickly. it wont be a very big system (1 or 2L), but i wanted to mess with configurations before i tried anything really big.___
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Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar

[Michael Redler]

...fair enough.Mike RHakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Mike W,If you look at my post, it was an answer to Michael Redler's post, so do not worry. We are probably all confused by all the Mikes and it might be good if you sign your posts with "Weaver" or Mike W. Maybe you should sign it with "The Real Mike". LOLWhat you are saying in Swedish is "I am old except I am cleaning". Mike R. could make a lot with this, if he understand Swedish. LOLIf you wanted to say "I am old but clean" it is "Jag är gammal men ren". Probably you wanted to say "I am old but innocent" which is "Jag är gammal men oskyldig".I hope that MR understands that it was a reply to him. LOLBest wishes.HakanAt 12:56 01/06/2006, you
 wrote:Hakan,I think you've gotten your Mikes mixed up. I'm Mike Weaver, or Mike theElder.I didn't say any of this. Go back and check the headers.I responded to your post of a few days ago, and basically agreed withyou that the US suffers from corruption, pollution and lack of transparency.I most certainly didn't attack your English nor your grammer.I did not write this below:-Mike WeaverYou wrote: "...it is a concerted effort to try to hold the value ofthe dollar high, when it according to all financial rules andfundamentals should be much lower."So, there are no organizations or governments attempting to defendthemselves from U.S. Hegemony by trying to increase the value ofcurrencies other than the Dollar? Who's the child Hakan?You said: "I find it a little bit amazing that
 in the text below isan attempt toblame other countries for allowing US to break all the rules."I find it amazing too - since I didn't "blame" other countries for anything.I find it amazing that (according to you) I can "blame" someonewithout using the word blame, or:culpabilityfaultguiltrapresponsibility for wrongdoing or failureI didn't say any related words like:regretremorseself-reproachshameaccountabilityliabilitycomplicityblameworthinessreprehensiblenesssinfulnesscensurecondemnationdenunciation(courtesy:http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blame )I didn't try to excuse the U.S. from breaking "all the rules".However, I did say "White House policy is both self destructive
 andantagonistic, attracting the attention of others to attack."You also said: "I do not see that US is under any attack"That one stands on it's own merit (or lack thereof). The U.S. has sobroadly alienated countries on every continent, what strategy ofattack do you think is being spared - irrespective of whether or notyou can "see" it?My observation/speculation was related to a growing and justifiablepopular dissent against the U.S. government, occurring both insideand outside the U.S. and how it may be effecting policy decisions incountries around the world.It would be a ray of sunshine if you could save the small-mindedpersonal attacks, address a specific observation (accurately) andexpress dissent with at least a thimble full of objectivity. I'm noteven asking for respect (although it would be nice).Others might
 find it useful to the conversation and you might findit helpful to your own credibility.Hakan Falk wrote: Mike,  I said that I found it amazing in the text, that was copied, and referred to by you. I did not said that you blamed anyone. If it was your text, then I misunderstood your referral.  I must have misunderstood you, since you now are saying that other countries defend themselves from US. I thought you said that they attacked US in a concerted manner. This is the first time that you introduce organizations and we all know that there are organizations that are trying to attack US and many other countries also.  National economy is a bit more complicated and generally you cannot say that a too high evaluated currency is good for a country. In most
 cases an artificial high currency is not good, which US experienced for some years now. US have tried for some time now, to get some selected other countries to rise their currencies, so it didn't had to devaluate. It would have been the same thing, but looked better for the US government. It would also given US the best of both worlds and kept the others to pay an artificially high price for the dollars they needed for their energy purchases. It is many factors that tell us that US no longer deserve the responsibility to be the guardian of a world currency and some diversification to Euro and other currencies will create better stability.  If you at your leisure chooses to misunderstand my choice of English words and that way take advantage of my choice of words and nationality, I will start to write Swedish in my
 responses to you. I do not like that you take advantage of that I try to write to you in your language and get upset/ridicule my choice of words, instead of try to understand what I want to say in a positive manner. You can try to communicate with me in Swedish and I am quite sure that your choices of Swedish words will be somewhat worse than my choices of English words.  It is after all 

Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar

[Michael Redler]

Hakan,"I try to write to you in your language and get upset/ridicule my choice of words, instead of try to understand what I want to say in a positive manner."I thought your message was very clearly written. I also think your English is excellent. I fully understoodyour child analogyand my list of words was used to indicate that I did not "blame" anyone for anything and it would have been directed at anyone, irrespective of whether their first language was English.Mike  Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Mike,I said that I found it amazing in the text, that was copied, and referred to by you. I did not said that you blamed anyone. If it was your text, then I misunderstood your
 referral.I must have misunderstood you, since you now are saying that other countries defend themselves from US. I thought you said that they attacked US in a concerted manner. This is the first time that you introduce organizations and we all know that there are organizations that are trying to attack US and many other countries also.National economy is a bit more complicated and generally you cannot say that a too high evaluated currency is good for a country. In most cases an artificial high currency is not good, which US experienced for some years now. US have tried for some time now, to get some selected other countries to rise their currencies, so it didn't had to devaluate. It would have been the same thing, but looked better for the US government. It would also given US the best of both worlds and kept the others to pay an artificially high price for the dollars they needed for their energy purchases.
 It is many factors that tell us that US no longer deserve the responsibility to be the guardian of a world currency and some diversification to Euro and other currencies will create better stability.If you at your leisure chooses to misunderstand my choice of English words and that way take advantage of my choice of words and nationality, I will start to write Swedish in my responses to you. I do not like that you take advantage of that I try to write to you in your language and get upset/ridicule my choice of words, instead of try to understand what I want to say in a positive manner. You can try to communicate with me in Swedish and I am quite sure that your choices of Swedish words will be somewhat worse than my choices of English words.It is after all an International list and the majority of us have other native languages than English. Until you attacked my for my English, I found a very large
 understanding for this, by the other list members.HakanAt 00:28 01/06/2006, you wrote:Hakan,You wrote: "...it is a concerted effort to try to hold the value of the dollar high, when it according to all financial rules and fundamentals should be much lower."So, there are no organizations or governments attempting to defend themselves from U.S. Hegemony by trying to increase the value of currencies other than the Dollar? Who's the child Hakan?You said: "I find it a little bit amazing that in the text below is an attempt toblame other countries for allowing US to break all the rules."I find it amazing too - since I didn't "blame" other countries for anything.I find it amazing that (according to you) I can "blame" someone without using the word blame,
 or:culpabilityfaultguiltrapresponsibility for wrongdoing or failureI didn't say any related words like:regretremorseself-reproachshameaccountabilityliabilitycomplicityblameworthinessreprehensiblenesssinfulnesscensurecondemnationdenunciation(courtesy: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blame )I didn't try to excuse the U.S. from breaking "all the rules". However, I did say "White House policy is both self destructive and antagonistic, attracting the attention of others to attack."You also said: "I do not see that US is under any attack"That one stands on it's own merit (or lack thereof). The U.S. has so broadly alienated countries on every continent, what strategy of attack do you
 think is being spared - irrespective of whether or not you can "see" it?My observation/speculation was related to a growing and justifiable popular dissent against the U.S. government, occurring both inside and outside the U.S. and how it may be effecting policy decisions in countries around the world.It would be a ray of sunshine if you could save the small-minded personal attacks, address a specific observation (accurately) and express dissent with at least a thimble full of objectivity. I'm not even asking for respect (although it would be nice).Others might find it useful to the conversation and you might find it helpful to your own credibility.MikeHakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:Mike,The weakening of the dollar is not a result of any concerted foreigneffort. The
 dollar is amazingly strong, considering that US breaksall fundamentals. It is probably the opposite, it is a concertedeffort to try to hold the value of the dollar high, when it accordingto all financial rules and fundamentals 

Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar

[Michael Redler]

Keith,You wrote: "He means the other superpower, the Social Forum in Porto Alegre for example, and I'm sure the "policy changes" have more to do with the World Bank/IMF/WTO than with the US government or other governments."It's hard to misunderstand his meaning - especially since he actually uses the term "second superpower".I wrote: "...and might be related to what Noam Chomsky describes on the last page of 'Hegemony or Survival'."What I'm saying is that events like the Social Forum mightactuallyeffectpublic policy outside (and perhaps inside) the U.S.. I wasn't trying to interpret his quote but rather, speculate and widen the scope where Chomsky'sobservation might also be true.They may "have more to do with the World Bank/IMF/WTO than with the US government or other governments." as you say. However, to what extent is that true? Does that mean that it doesn't
 effectgovernments to any meaningful degree? If so, I think I would disagree with your assessment. In fact, there are times when I cannot distinguish between the motives of the World Bank/IMF/WTO and the US government or other governments. More importantly, a successful campaign against one would certainly effect the other.Although quantifying that effect is debatable, I feel it is worth mentioning.Finally, I offer this as a contribution to thediscussion. I'm not an expert and if I were asked for an expert opinion, I would defer most economic and foreign policy matters to you. If (as you say) it's been mentioned in your previous contributions, I apologize for being redundant.Mike R.Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Hello Mike R.I
 think the 5/30/06 post and attached article from AltEnergyNetwork dida excellent job explaining the administration's decision making process,the U.S. economy and how it compares to similar situations in othercountries.http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg63309.htmlYes it does, but there's been a lot more about it previously, especially in comments on the implications of Iran's new oil bourse, there are other points of view, and I think they all have to be assessed.I also think it's possible that the weakening of the U.S. Dollar is theresult of a concerted effort by foreign entities (governments and NGO's)and might be related to what Noam Chomsky describes on the last page of"Hegemony or Survival"."For the first time, concrete alliances have been taking shape at thegrassroots level . These are impressive developments, rich
 inopportunity. And they have had effects, in rhetorical and sometimespolicy changes."When he says "policy changes", I read it to mean within the UnitedStates. However, I think that a popular movement to identify the U.S.government as the single biggest threat to our survival as a species, iscoalescing in foreign policy decisions around the world. The result isan indication of US economic isolation with hopes of slowing militarybuildup and globalization.I think you credit them with more strategy than they deserve. I don't think Chomsky is talking about the same thing. He also said this, with the same sentence in it:"The harmful effects of the corporate globalisation project have led to mass popular protest and activism in the South, later joined by major sectors of the rich industrial societies, hence becoming harder to ignore. For the first time concrete alliances
 have been taking shape at a grassroots level. It is fair to say, I think, that the future of our endangered species may be determined in no small measure by how these popular forces evolve."He means the other superpower, the Social Forum in Porto Alegre for example, and I'm sure the "policy changes" have more to do with the World Bank/IMF/WTO than with the US government or other governments.(IMO) this adds to Mike Weaver's position:http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg63345.html"Don't get me wrong - the concerted effort to destroy our economicsystem perpetuated by the Bush Administration will (and has) have aneffect."I think it adds to Gabriel Kolko's position and mine 18 months ago, and since - Vote Bush! LOL!... But a Kerry win would still have left you with the "duopoly" party,followed by business-as-usual, especially on the foreign
 policyfront. There's not much essential difference between the two parties'foreign policy, eg between Clinton's and Bush's, it's mostly just theBushies' outrageous in-your-face style of it that's different.I agreed with Gabriel Kolko at the time, that Bush might be thelesser of two evils, but while Kolko was thinking of other nationsand international alliances I was thinking of the Other Superpower.http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg38234.html[Biofuel] The Coming Elections and the Future of American Global Power16 Sep 2004Also this:"Gabriel Kolko -- in this writer's estimation, our most indispensablehistorian -- argues in a recent piece on the Counterpunch websitethat because a second Bush term would possibly intensify 

Re: [Biofuel] U.S. dollar

[Michael Redler]

Hakan,You wrote: "...it is a concerted effort to try to hold the value of the dollar high, when it according to all financial rules and fundamentals should be much lower."So, there are no organizations or governments attempting to defend themselves from U.S. Hegemony by trying to increase the value of currenciesother thanthe Dollar? Who's the child Hakan?You said: "I find it a little bit amazing that in the text below is an attempt toblame other countries for allowing US to break all the rules."I find it amazing too - since I didn't "blame" other countries for anything.I find itamazing that (according to you) I can "blame" someone without using the word blame, or:culpabilityfaultguiltrapresponsibility for wrongdoing or failure I didn't say any related words
 like:regretremorseself-reproachshameaccountabilityliabilitycomplicityblameworthinessreprehensiblenesssinfulnesscensurecondemnationdenunciation(courtesy: http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/blame)I didn't try toexcuse the U.S. frombreaking "all the rules". However, I did say "White House policy is both self destructive and antagonistic, attracting the attention of others to attack."You also said: "I do not see that US is under any attack"That one stands on it's own merit (or lack thereof). The U.S. has so broadly alienated countries on every continent, what strategy of attack do you think is being spared - irrespective of whether or not you can "see" it?My observation/speculation was related toa growing and justifiable popular dissent against the U.S. government, occurring both inside and outside the U.S. and how it
 may be effecting policy decisions in countries around the world.It would be a ray of sunshine if you could save the small-minded personal attacks, address a specific observation (accurately) and express dissent with at least a thimble full of objectivity. I'm not even asking for respect (although it would be nice).Othersmight find ituseful to the conversation and you might find it helpful to your own credibility.Mike  Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Mike,The weakening of the dollar is not a result of any concerted foreigneffort. The dollar is amazingly strong, considering that US breaksall fundamentals. It is probably the opposite, it is a concertedeffort to try to hold the value of the dollar high, when it accordingto all financial rules and
 fundamentals should be much lower.I find it a little bit amazing that in the text below is an attempt toblame other countries for allowing US to break all the rules. I wouldnot surprised to hear such things from children "mom/dad said wecould do it" and maybe I am not that surprised to hear it from US.It is however wrong to try to find any to blame other then US itself.I do not see that US is under any attack, it is only taking theconsequences of its own doing. I see no reason to develop anymental feelings like "being pursued" over it. It is not any backgroundfor "see what they are doing to us" when it should be "see what weare doing to ourselves". On the other hand, conspiration theoriesare favorite themes for Americans and they will soon find someonewho is "making it to the Americans, so the Americans will makeit to themselves".Do not misunderstand me, I like Americans very much and I alsolike
 children very much. I wonder if there are any connections inthis. How they could elect Bush is beyond me, but he is there.HakanAt 17:05 31/05/2006, you wrote:I think the 5/30/06 post and attached article from AltEnergyNetwork dida excellent job explaining the administration's decision making process,the U.S. economy and how it compares to similar situations in othercountries.http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg63309.htmlI also think it's possible that the weakening of the U.S. Dollar is theresult of a concerted effort by foreign entities (governments and NGO's)and might be related to what Noam Chomsky describes on the last page of"Hegemony or Survival"."For the first time, concrete alliances have been taking shape at thegrassroots level . These are impressive developments, rich inopportunity. And they have
 had effects, in rhetorical and sometimespolicy changes."When he says "policy changes", I read it to mean within the UnitedStates. However, I think that a popular movement to identify the U.S.government as the single biggest threat to our survival as a species, iscoalescing in foreign policy decisions around the world. The result isan indication of US economic isolation with hopes of slowing militarybuildup and globalization.(IMO) this adds to Mike Weaver's position:http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg63345.html"Don't get me wrong - the concerted effort to destroy our economicsystem perpetuated by the Bush Administration will (and has) have aneffect."White House policy is both self destructive and antagonistic, attractingthe attention of others to attack.Military spending/use, energy, the
 environment, you name it, the U.S.government is 

Re: [Biofuel] Energy Problem Solved! Here Comes theTurboencabulator!

[Michael Redler]

I heard that they are still used to run the replicators."...Tea, Earl grey, hot."Mikemark manchester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  N, Georgie has to fix it, by installing an inverse phase inhibitor.They didn't have turboencabulators on the old Enterprises, silly.Jesse[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] Constitution Party

[Michael Redler]

Dear Rev. Schmidt,UhWhat?!!I went to the links enclosed in your last post and (thanks to you) I'm running laps between my living room and kitchen with my hands over my ears,like Quasimodo in the bell tower. Agh! I can't get that stupid electronic music out of my head!As for good ol' Chuck, he needs to either keep his face firmly planted in a bible or get a clue before belching out this verbal swill about how the republican partyhas"nose-dived into a big government, big- spending, socialist, Big Brother, pro-illegal invasion party that no true conservative could remotely support!"Nose dived? More like rose to become a radical, theologically driven, nationalist cancer on our political landscape.Big spending? Sure! ...but on what?Big Brother? O.K. I sure feel like I have a big brother with the initials
 NSA.  Big government? I guess - although the cuts to numerous social programs in order to raise three quarters of aTRILLION dollars (that's twelve zeros in case youwere wondering)for an offensivemilitary may indicate otherwise.Oh...did I say "social"? Chuck hasn't the foggiest notion as to what "Socialist" means. If he did, he would have observed that the rights of the working class have been systematically taken away. Our labor unions are practically non-existentthanks(in part) to an anti-union, pro-business administration.Hisdescription of the GOP as "pro-illegal invasion" ignores the fact that Mexicans wouldn't risk their lives crossing the border if our"free trade agreements" didn't attack the working class and funnel money to the (already) wealthy friends of President Fox. Did I say "working class"? Socialism is about serving the
 needs of the working class and distribution of wealth for the greater good.It's too bad he mixedthese profoundly ignorant comments with a few, more legitimate observations about the two-party system (for example).This guy creeps me out in a Ralph Reed/Minutemankinda way.  Mike  Marylynn Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   A forward from another list ..Mary LynnRev. Mary Lynn Schmidt, Ordained MinisterONE SPIRIT ONE HEARTTTouch . Reiki . Pet Loss Grief Counseling . Animal Behavior Modification . Shamanic Spiritual Travel .
 Behavior Problems . Psionic Energy Practitioner . Radionics . Herbs . Dowsing . Nutrition . Homeopathy . Polarity .The Animal Connection Healing Modalitieshttp://members.tripod.com/~MLSchmidt/http://allcreatureconnections.orghttp://www.newswithviews.com/baldwin/baldwin303.htmCAN CONSTITUTION-ALISTS EVER COME TOGETHER?By Pastor Chuck BaldwinMay 23, 2006NewsWithViews.comBack in 2004, I gave up hope that the Republican Party would ever again honestly promote a truly conservative, constitutionalist agenda in Washington, D.C. Since then, the GOP has not failed my expectations. It has nose-dived into a big government, big- spending, socialist, Big Brother, pro-illegal invasion party that no true conservative could remotely support!As a result, I switched
 my party registration to the Constitution Party. The CP has a platform with which I enthusiastically agree! (See their party platform) The CP also traditionally enjoys ballot access in over 40 states, which makes it a very viable third party. In fact, in raw numbers, the CP is the third largest party behind only the two major parties.However, it seems very clear to me that if conservative constitutionalists ever hope to regain national influence, it will take a combined effort. Currently, constitutionalists are fragmented and splintered to such a degree that, for all practical purposes, they are entirely ineffective. Moreover, they will continue to be ineffective unless they learn how to work together for a common cause."What is the cause?" you ask. The cause should be the restoration of our constitutional form of government. As far as governing principles are
 concerned, the U.S. Constitution is the greatest source of protection against the Machiavellian propensities of power-hungry men that the world has ever known! If America had not had the Constitution, we would have already become a third rate nation. It is the Constitution which has preserved whatever semblance of freedom and federalism that remains.Without the Constitution (together with the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights), we would have little appreciation for religious liberty, the freedom of speech, the freedom of the press, personal privacy, the right to trial by jury, or the right to keep and bear arms. America was founded upon the principles contained in the Constitution, not upon this mythical "two party system" we hear so much talk about today!In fact, it has been the "two party" system that is largely responsible for much of
 America's woes. The two major parties abandoned the Constitution years ago! The only thing either party is interested in is power! They could not care less whether or not America's founding principles are preserved! Instead, over the past several decades, both parties have systematically and 

Re: [Biofuel] Government's role in society.

[Michael Redler]

Jim wrote: "I really don't mind corporations, and I like to see them make a profit when it means prosperity for all."Divided World: Rich Live Longer, Poor Die Youngerhttp://www.commondreams.org/headlines/062900-01.htmThose who want wealth, will have it. Since there is no individual who's work represents hundreds of times the value of his/her employees, you arrive at two simple conclusions - that corporations are a means of building wealth off the backs of others and that those whoown those corporations are obsessed with building empires and monuments to themselves, off the backs of others.The size ofa corporation is a measure of theambition to build that empire and monument.The only thing that can fight the devastating effects of corporate greed is public consensus and a movement built from that consensus. The sooner that greed
 effects public policy and makes enough people suffer, the sooner the public will wake up to what's going on around them and react to it.  MikeJJJN [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  I really don't mind corporations, and I like to see them make a profit when it means prosperity for all, I just dont like the powers in Govrnment to be persuaded and corrupted by those profits. Yes this one needs some work,ThanksJimD. Mindock wrote:Hi Jim, I think number 4 could be dangerous. What if a corporation wanted to withhold their taxes for somereason? I'd modify number 5:5) Government through representation of the people by the people.to this:5) Government through representation of only the people, by only the people,
 for only thepeople. (No wiggle room on this one)And I'd add another article that strongly limits what is really the root of all our problems, theimmoral/unethical, inhumane influence of multinational corporations which now control most of the world'sgovernments and indirectly, their people. This is the elephant in the room, imo. Corporations arenot people or a person and deserve no special treatment. The welfare of the people should be paramount to all considerations.In this vein, the environment is part and parcel of the welfare of the people. You can't ignore it or trash it without it comingback to ruin your day, and your life. Corporations, as a rule, don't give a hoot about the environment. We are all stuck on a small planet that is getter more polluted every day. The oceans are loaded with PCBs and mercury. This cannot continue without
 devastating consequences for all living things.So, an article that explicitly encourages/enforces a healthy environment should, imo, be added. I think it is that important.Peace, D. Mindock- Original Message - From: "Doug Younker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: Sent: Monday, May 22, 2006 1:39 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Governments role in society.[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] Solar Concentrator PV Modules

[Michael Redler]

E. Allen C.  You wrote: "Specific to this thread: the cooling fluid acrossthe PV film doesn't need to be deep if the heat istransferred  redirected (a radiator?) at a separatesite, right? Or am i off in left field?"Your right-on, E.You wrote: "A friend works in an aluminum-extrusion factory..."Whoa! ...the holy grail of DIY of heat transfer. Go for it!JTF is huge and might have some info on this. It's also been discussed in this forum. I recommend you search the archives.Finally, the search engine is your friend! Have you tried www.dogpile.com? Important search words include:Peltier or "Peltier effect"  "waste heat"  "absorption"  cogeneration  
Good luck!Mike  "E. C." [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Mikes, Zeke, Chip, Hakan et al;Greetings --  thanx for the hope!I'm trying to dope out a system to incorporate in ageodesic-dome structure [utilizing thin-film PV in toppanels to capture sun-source asheat-transfer/electrical-generation]  also toaccelerate algae-production in a holding tank toprovide biomass to process to BD for transport fuel. Trouble is, i'm no chemist or engineer, just a reader-- this forum is the greatest for idea-generation!!i'm not concerned about patents  ownership rights:with what i figure is a 10-15-year window ofopportunity to effect change to sustainable livingpatterns, we need all the
 idea-sharing (some call ittheft of intellectual property) we can get, forsurvival as a species!Specific to this thread: the cooling fluid acrossthe PV film doesn't need to be deep if the heat istransferred  redirected (a radiator?) at a separatesite, right? Or am i off in left field?Sooo much i don't know A friend works in an aluminum-extrusion factory, says can make the PV-film-holding panels easy -- but iread that aluminum is a drawback; why not, say,slotted 2"X6" lumber w/wood keys ?? With the geodesicdesign using 1/7 the structure-support needed forcomparable box-type enclosure space, seems this isstill practicable -- 2 X 6 would allow space forsun-blocking liquid-foam insulation (interior of thePV,  the circulating algae medium [water], ofcourse). I live in Florida,  summer heat is anissue. Geodesics are also more wind-resistant (as inhurricanes, which are
 becoming more prevalent, bigger, more damaging as the global climate degenerates --at least i'm not right on the coast).Enuf of my ramblings -- ideas  corrections aremost gratefully accepted  acknowledged. :-)~Peace to All,  a bettering worldE. Allen C.___
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Re: [Biofuel] Now Is the Time for a Left-Right Alliance

[Michael Redler]

Would a Left-Right alliance mean working toward the extinction of labels (i.e. "Left" - "Right")? It's an ambiguous moving scale thatcoerces loyalty towards it's current representative ideology, irrespective of whether you agree with it.I wastold that Nixon would make a great Democrat these days.Mike"D. Mindock" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Hi Jim, Hi D, No not now - this should have happened after we invaded Iraq and prior to the second four years.Better late than never. We need to stop the Bush regime, now. It is aloose cannon. I honestly am not a progressive or a conservative. I simply listen to both sides of an issue and look for the truth that comes from each then decide
 where America as a people will benefit the most - NOT where I will benefit or where my special interests lie,My special interests are: fairness, life (live  let live, here and abroad), equal justice for all regardless of whatever, equalopportunity for all, world-class education for all through 4 years college; stop the polluting of our air/water/food, low cost single payer healthcare for all, investing in sustainable energy sources, and reducing our greatly bloated Pentagon budget so that we can pay for all the infrastructure repairs/upgrades needed to our social and physical fabric.but where the most Americans will stand to benefit (without the loss of life and liberty to someone in another country as a result of the benefit to these Americans.). I believe JFK said "ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country"Yes, I believe he said
 that. I understand some issues are very complicated and do not have simple answers but when you jump on a party line that says " this is bad" and "thats good don't bother to think", then you have just become blind to the real solutions.Basically, all I have been saying that BushCo represents special interests andnot the American people. He has lied to Congress and "we the people".His values and actions have resulted in a degraded environment, a disastrous war in Iraq (more pending?),fraud, spying on us all, etc. These are bad.I believe the best solution is his immediateremoval from office. This is good.You can think on this. I encourage free thinking on all issues. Are there any issuesam I blind to?There is nothing complicated about GW Bush. He's a pretty linear guy.Peace to all, D. Mindock Best, Jim D. Mindock
 wrote: http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/node/10305  Now Is the Time for a Left-Right Alliance A rebel alliance already exists that could stop Bush administration attacks on the Constitution by Thomas R. Eddlem I'm currently a life member of the John Birch Society and formerly served on the staff of the organization for 13 years. So why should any left-winger reading this care a fig about what I have to say? Because of a conversation I had with another conservative magazine writer recently. In frustration at the unconstitutional excesses of the Bush administration, I blurted out to him: "The only people doing any good out there are the people at Air America." I expected to shock him
 with the statement, but his two-word reply shocked me: "And MoveOn.org." We were both exaggerating for effect, but fact is, as my journalist friend continued, "We probably only disagree on, maybe, 25 percent of the issues." I'd have put the percentage a little higher, though I tacked an ending onto his sentence: ".and those issues aren't especially important right now." When Air America started, I told myself and my friends that it would fail because it would be redundant. The Left already controls all the television networks besides Fox, along with most of the major newspapers. But here we are a year later, and the most penetrating news analysis on television is - and I'm not exaggerating here - Jon Stewart's Daily Show on Comedy Central. I tuned into the Boston Air America affiliate when I
 became a community radio talk show host almost two years ago, thinking that I could use a few of their wild statements as a springboard to bounce my counterpoint. And although I got a few yuks out of quips about "Airhead America," I found that I agreed with the hosts more than I disagreed with them. They criticized the Bush administration for deceiving us into the Iraq war. No problem there. They criticized Alberto Gonzales for his torture memos. Again, no problem. They criticized deficit spending, the PATRIOT Act, and corporate welfare. Hurray, hurray, and hurray! So I called into a few "progressive" radio talk shows, identifying myself as a "right-wing radio talk show host," and explained my understanding of these issues. Stephanie Miller told me that I was a "not a very good right-winger." A liberal show
 host at my radio station even called me a "liberal." But my views haven't changed one bit since I joined the John Birch Society during the Reagan administration. So this is not a conversion story. What's changed is that the Bush administration has simply gotten that bad and that, 

Re: [Biofuel] Solar Concentrator PV Modules

[Michael Redler]

Ah, the computer. Understood.  How about food grade, Citation™ and Avatech™ White Mineral Oil (for example)?http://www.avatarcorp.com/products_list.php/inid/3/catid/89/org/indus/catn/White%20Mineral%20Oil/?source=google...although mineral oils might actually conduct electricity. I haven't done enough research yet. In any event, I think it's quite possible to have a clear, non-conductive oil with relatively good heat transfer qualities.There are optical fluids (oils) used in the manufacture of some high power microscopes (for example).I snipped a portion from a site about oil cooled computers. I think it's applicable here."The gunk factor and the
 place smelling like vegetable oil makes me think that a petrochemical or mineral oil would be the best bet.. I suppose any reasonably non-conductive fluid medium would work. Heh.. Thinned-down petroleum jelly for a porn server? I wonder how conductive gasoline is.."http://www.museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/weblog/comments/3153/I like their spunk!  MikeJason  Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  i wasnt talking about your idea, i was speaking of the computer.anyway if you were to go about it this way, you would need a "white oil" which is totally clear, and colorless because any color or particulates would lower the applied sunlight.
 this would produce more heat, yes, but the electrical power would be reduced. from an application standpoint the question is "is the tradeoff worth it?" it all depends on what results you are after.- Original Message - From: Michael RedlerTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Monday, May 15, 2006 8:17 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Solar Concentrator  PV ModulesWhat does extreme mean?The way I see it, there is probably less materials (no special methods for interfacing PV panel and cooling). I visualize the PV panels in a clear, oil tight enclosure with an inlet, outlet, a length of tubing, heat exchanger (radiator) and circulating pump. As far as hardware is concerned, I don't see this as a huge departure from what we've already been talking about.Now, this thread contains lot of "it won't work" type statements which are not supported with a hell of a lot of information. Simply put,
 it's a bit of a turn-off.So, if you have a position that questions the validity of an idea, please back it up with something more than "that's just a touchbit extreme...".Thank you in advance.MikeJason  Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:that's just a touchbit extreme...- Original Message - From: Michael RedlerTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Monday, May 15, 2006 7:25 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Solar Concentrator  PV ModulesAs we all know, there are a lot of ways to harvest waste heat but the onethat stands out in my mind is from a message posted about six months ago. Idon't know if this is a solution, but I'm definitely curious to know one wayor the other.http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg59540.html1) Oils are generally non-conductive so, the PV cells can be immersed in itwithout shorting.2.) Some oils
 can come with fairly good optical qualities - important forpassing light to PV and transforming light to electricity.Joe: I remember reading your post about experimenting with black bodies andit looks like you have a background that may be useful here. Maybe you canchime in (if your reading this thread)?Mike[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] Solar Concentrator PV Modules

[Michael Redler]

Who says that the PV cells have to be immersed in the oil?If the modules were in the glass box and standing (more or less) upright, the oil coolant could simply be cascaded over the modules. Even if the oil hadrelatively highphotoabsorption compared to water (for example), there would only be a thin film to penetrate.Any thoughts?MikeChip Mefford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Hakan Falk wrote: Mike,  Many of the high voltage transformers in  electricity distribution are filled with oil for  insulation and cooling purposes.  In this case I  belive it is mineral oils, but it is many years  (40) since I worked with this and do not completely trust my
 memory.They were,and 40 years ago, they were filled with that marvelous compoundthat did everything exactly right. Polychlorinatedbiphenol.Great stuff all in all, just had one drawbackSNIP___
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Re: [Biofuel] was Solar Concentrator PV Modules

[Michael Redler]

You need to go back a bit.http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg62757.htmlMikeAltEnergyNetwork [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Hi,I've been following this thread with interest butmaybe I am missing something here.If you are going to flow water on the back side of the cells,how do you stop the water from shorting out the cells?regardstallex___
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Re: [Biofuel] Solar Concentrator PV Modules

[Michael Redler]

  As we all know, there are a lot of ways to harvest waste heat but the one that stands out in my mind is from a message postedabout six months ago. I don't know if this is a solution, but I'm definitely curious to know one way or the other.http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg59540.html  1) Oils are generally non-conductive so, the PV cells can be immersed in it without shorting.2.)Some oilscan come with fairly good optical qualities - important for passing light to PV and transforming light to electricity.Joe: I remember reading your post about experimenting with black bodies and it looks like you have a background that may be useful here. Maybe you can chime in (if your reading this thread)?Mike  Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:  This is basically what I did. kludging would be the word for it, asabout once a week it would have a catestrophic leak and I'd have torebuild it. Worked okay to get research data, but obviuosly not longterm I found that preheating water for domestic hot water (whichcould have final heating done either by real solar thermal collectors,or gas/electric/etc) seemed to be the best. Try to get it too hot andthe efficiency dropped way off (I had water tubes touching the back ofthe PV module, but no front glazing), plus it didn't cool the PV cellsenough to help with electrical efficiency much either. The trick isto size the storage tank and PV area with the daily draw to still getthe cooling effect and not stagnate the tank. I suppose with adifferent collector design you could obtain higher temperatures, andstill
 probably not damage the PV module (unless the circulation loopstagnated, then I'm not sure), but I was going more for cooling thePV, and seeing the collected thermal energy could be useful, ratherthan having high quality thermal energy as the primary goal. Giventhat typical solar thermal DHW system here in the US don't achieve100% solar fraction anyway, I figured that preheat was a decent way togo. If you wanted to go for 100% solar fraction (which is what weshould be doing long term) cascading it with a higher temp solarthermal collector might be alot better.On 5/15/06, Chip Mefford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Zeke Yewdall wrote:  This is exactly what I did my master's thesis on. The concept works  pretty well from a theoretical perspective. I was just investigating  using water cooling for non-concrentrating PV, but it would work even  better for concentrating PV. You shouldn't
 really have to deal with  1200F, at least if you are talking about water, because the maximum  working temp for a water based fluid is probably about 400F or so??  (assuming antifreeze additives and increased pressure). Depends on  how much pressure you are talking about I guess.  l was thinking of kludging up water jackets for PV panels, to feed the INFLOW for a small evacuated tube solar heater, preheating the inflow by 'cooling' the PVs. Do you think this makes sense?___
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Re: [Biofuel] Solar Concentrator PV Modules

[Michael Redler]

What does extreme mean?The way I see it, there is probably less materials (no special methods for interfacing PV panel and cooling). I visualize the PV panels in a clear, oil tight enclosure with an inlet, outlet, a length of tubing, heat exchanger (radiator)and circulating pump. As far as hardware is concerned, I don't see this as a huge departure from what we've already been talking about.Now, this threadcontains lot of "it won't work" type statements which are not supported with a hell of a lot of information. Simply put, it'sa bit of a turn-off.So, if you have a position that questions the validity of an idea, please back it up with something more than "that's just a touchbit extreme...".Thank you in advance.Mike  Jason  Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  that's just a touchbit extreme...- Original Message - From: Michael RedlerTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Monday, May 15, 2006 7:25 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Solar Concentrator  PV ModulesAs we all know, there are a lot of ways to harvest waste heat but the one that stands out in my mind is from a message posted about six months ago. I don't know if this is a solution, but I'm definitely curious to know one way or the other.http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg59540.html1) Oils are generally non-conductive so, the PV cells can be immersed in it without shorting.2.) Some oils can come with fairly good optical qualities - important for passing light to PV and transforming light to electricity.Joe: I remember reading your post about experimenting with black bodies and it looks like you have a background that may be useful
 here. Maybe you can chime in (if your reading this thread)?Mike[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] Solar Concentrator PV Modules

[Michael Redler]

Zeke,Why are you concentrating on emerging technologyfor purchase when the purpose of thisforum encourages the opposite? This is especially true when the discussion is about technology which is accessible to most people (at least most people on this list).Fill a glass box with PV and clear oil. If there is a problem with this application, please let me know. I'm not too proud to concede that I may have missed something.What would Schumacher do?MikeZeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  What about the liquid PVs?? I think that Konarka is developing one ofthose. And a company in Austrailia. They supposedly had somepre-production prototypes about a year ago, but I haven't seencommercial ones yet. They use some sort of nano-crystal, and liquidinside,
 which can be replaced in 10 years when it degradeshttp://www.konarka.com/ Hmm. Looking at the website, it looks likeit's not the Konarka stuff. I'll try to find the website of theaustralian one.Zeke[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[Michael Redler]

Hakan,I read your post and I have to say;if I set aside the stuffwe already talked about, the stuff with which I already disagreed (providing an extensive explanation as to why), and the stuffof which most people are already aware, I find myself in full support of you comments.Thank you!MikeHakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Mike,You mentioned Gulags and if I am not wrong, US have something very similar or worse in Gutanamo. It is also now clear that people got kidnapped by US and sent to secret jails or other nations for "questioning". The principle and use are roughly the same as the Gulags.Yes, the democrats are not using "Stalinist" methods, but Bush is doing his best. You
 are right, the democrats are not there yet, it is the republicans. I assume that they are using the tax dollars for it also. Stalin hijacked the communist idea and built an apparatus to spy and control the citizens. Stalin's USSR had little to do with Lenin's communist ideas.Today we know that there were links between Lenin and the financial powers in Europe and US. Lenin in his French exile was financially supported and it was "corporate" powers who worked on a "regime change" and "democracy" in Russia. Stalin was probably a "dark horse" in this and an uneducated leader, who was unsuitable to lead Russia into the "industrial revolution". He was a product of a backlash and an unwanted surprise.The pattern for Lenin, follows the pattern that later brought AH to power in Germany. He also built Gulags/Gutanamos to control the people. AH clearly had "corporate support" and western ideas.This were the big
 historical dictators, helped and supported by corporations. Then we have numerous small examples in Europe, Far East, Africa and South America and the current backlash against them. History take 100 years to write and it not until now, that we start to get perspective on what happened in the period before the Russian revolution and WWI.HakanAt 00:12 13/05/2006, you wrote:Someone asked:"i believe someone referred to the socialist/communist farce in the USSR asStalinist? would that be a fitting label?"If I understood the question correctly, it was (tongue-in-cheek) about using the label "Stalinist" on Democrats. Of course, I could be mistaken. In any event, I have no idea how Cuba entered the conversation.You wrote: "...this philosophy to use non national soil is a step further."I don't understand what you are trying to say. I'm guessing you are
 referring to Russia using Cuba to extend it's expansionist agenda. If true, I'm not sure where it fits into the conversation.MikeHakan Falk wrote:Mike,Gulags yes, but it is in Cuba of course and a bit warmer thanSiberia, this philosophy to use non national soil is a step further.Assassinate, we do not really know, if we exclude Iraq of course. InIraq it is FFA, except for the English who prosecute their militaryif they murder Iraqi civilians and they find out about it.HakanAt 23:22 12/05/2006, you wrote:Only if they can use tax dollars to build gulags and assassinatewith impunity.We're not their
 yet.MikeJason  Katie <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:i believe someone referred to the socialist/communist farce in the USSR asstalinist? would that be a fitting label?- Original Message -From: "Zeke Yewdall"To:Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 9:29 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu HoaxI would say agree that the democrats are not very good socialists --morons would be the best description I can think of for them.On 5/12/06, Michael Redler
 wrote:Ray,Democrats make piss-poor socialists and to imply that that they are, isaninsult to socialists. If Teddy Kennedy ran in a true socialist election,Idoubt that he would get a single vote - even if he were the onlycandidate.However, there are candidates who run as members of the socialist party.They are clearly noticeable by their intelligent and articulate responsestothe issues, their concern for the working class, and virtual invisibilityinthe "mainstream" media.Camejo's campaign gives the right
 answershttp://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/470/470_04_Camejo.shtmlThe Democrats aren't a solutionhttp://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/461/461_04_OtherLetters.shtml#DemsThe presidential campaigns of Socialist Party leader Eugene Debshttp://www.socialistworker.org/2004-2/514/514_08_Debs.shtmlMikeRay in Atlanta GA wrote:Unfortunately, both the socialists, whoops Democrats, and the
 fascists,excuse me, I mean Republicans, are all busy breaking their necks to jumpon Shrub's band wagon.Ray in Atlanta GAD. Mindock wrote:This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect allthe info on citizens possible to be stored ina huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us toacceptthat anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the

Re: [Biofuel] Solar Concentrator PV Modules

[Michael Redler]

Concentrators (heliostats) use tracking technology. The only difference is the half angle mechanism usedin concentrators to reflect the light instead of keeping a surface normal to the Sun's rays.Once tracking technology becomes cost competitivewhen compared to simply adding more PV modules (approx. 30% increase in energy conversion with 2 axis tracker), the technology will be commonplace and in some places inseparable. It's a little early to say for sure, that PV will work better with concentrated light but, I sure hope the "writing on the wall" is correct....a biased opinion.US #6,897,423Self-powered intermittent moving light tracking device and method MikeLugano Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:hi Logan. PVmodules and solar concentrators are two different technologies and unfortunately, their individual energy capture principle is contradicting to each other. consequently, they can not be used at same application. PV modules need to absorb all the solar radiation so as to generate electricity through the module cells where as solar concentrators have to reflect all the solar radiation and direct it at a specific location (ie concentrated) for the purpose of heating a medium that can latter generate required energy. you therefore need to choose one for a specific application. however, when it comes to electricity the pv modules are good due to the fact that you can size them depending on your requirement starting with one module and increasing. concentrators for electricity is a large scale project - not so
 "modular". LuganoLogan Vilas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Would a standard PV module produce more when used with a Solar Concentratoror does it require a special PV module?Logan Vilas[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[Michael Redler]

Ray,Democrats make piss-poor socialists and to imply that that they are, is an insult to socialists. If Teddy Kennedy ran in a true socialist election, I doubt that he would get a single vote - evenif he were the only candidate.However, there are candidates who run as members of the socialist party. They are clearly noticeableby their intelligent and articulate responses to the issues, their concern for the working class, and virtual invisibility in the "mainstream" media.Camejo’s campaign gives the right answers  http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/470/470_04_Camejo.shtmlThe Democrats aren’t a solution  http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/461/461_04_OtherLetters.shtml#DemsThe presidential campaigns of Socialist Party leader Eugene Debs  http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-2/514/514_08_Debs.shtml  Mike  Ray in Atlanta GA [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Unfortunately, both the socialists, whoops Democrats, and the fascists, excuse me, I mean Republicans, are all busy breaking their necks to jump on Shrub's band wagon.Ray in Atlanta GAD. Mindock wrote: This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all  the info on citizens
 possible to be stored in a huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us to accept that anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database of  your airline flights. When they say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you can  believe it will be much longer than that. Just like your online traffic through your ISP, all of it, is to be maintained for  at least a year thanks to a proposal by US Congresswoman DeGette  (D-CO). Yes, she calls herself a Democrat. We need to write our Congress  reps that this BS won't fly with us. It is wrong that the NSA and the  Pentagon are spying on us. BushCo is a fear based, secretive,  devisive, newspeak government that is totally controlled by corporate  powers. I think this is the definition of a fascist regime. No wonder  the world is becoming terrified of our goverment. Bush and Dead-Eye
  Dick appear to be out-of-control. Work for Peace, D. Mindock   The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu HoaxBird FluA plan to quarantine sick airline and ship passengers in order  to combat a potential bird flu outbreak has outraged health experts,  airlines, and civil libertarians.  *Three-Day Quarantine*  Sick passengers would be identified by flight attendants, pilots and  cruise ship crews. Passengers identified as sick could be detained in  quarantine for as long as three days.  *Detailed Information*  The proposed rules would also require airlines to collect detailed  contact information from their passengers, including the names of any  traveling companions and precise information regarding travel plans. The  information would be stored for at least two months, and would be
  provided to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) at any time the  government asked for it.  USA Today   April 25, 2006[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] Solar Concentrator PV Modules

[Michael Redler]

Hi Zeke,Although "the space requirements for a tracker can actually be higher than30%more", it doesn't have to be.The "current versions" certainly do not need to be on a large pole (http://www.abc.net.au/newinventors/txt/s1487858.htm).With all due respect, you're comments (intentionally or not) confine the discussion to schemes that actually do take 30% more space (i.e.large, commonGimbal arrangements).As far as aesthetics are concerned, I agree that people in the US have a strange sense of what looks good on the landscape. As soon as the culture becomes more educated about energy and the environment, I hope that their sense of aesthetics will change too.Have you ever driven through a large housing development and
 notice the number of satellite dishes?MikeZeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Yes, you get get 30% more power from the same PV modules, but thespace requirements for a tracker can actually be higher than for 30%more fixed PV. Fixed PV can be mounted on a building, often on aexisting surface, thus essentially not taking up any room. A tracker(at least the current versions) require a large pole and room to turn.I've found that alot of people are okay with putting modules on theirroof that isn't doing anything else anyway, but fewer want somethingin the backyard, or sticking up off the roof. Aesthetics are strangedrivers (I know of one case in which the national park service didn'twant a 2,000 sq foot PV array, because it would destroy the
 naturalbeauty, but apparently the 250 car parking lot and droning dieselgenerators didn't...). In higher density urban areas, finding therequired volumes of space in which to mount trackers would be evenharder, whereas every urban area has surfaces which receive sunlight.On 5/12/06, Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Concentrators (heliostats) use tracking technology. The only difference is the half angle mechanism used in concentrators to reflect the light instead of keeping a surface normal to the Sun's rays. Once tracking technology becomes cost competitive when compared to simply adding more PV modules (approx. 30% increase in energy conversion with 2 axis tracker), the technology will be commonplace and in some places inseparable. It's a little early to say for sure, that PV will work better with concentrated light but, I sure hope the "writing on the wall"
 is correct. ...a biased opinion. US #6,897,423 Self-powered intermittent moving light tracking device and method Mike Lugano Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: hi Logan. PV modules and solar concentrators are two different technologies and unfortunately, their individual energy capture principle is contradicting to each other. consequently, they can not be used at same application. PV modules need to absorb all the solar radiation so as to generate electricity through the module cells where as solar concentrators have to reflect all the solar radiation and direct it at a specific location (ie concentrated) for the purpose of heating a medium that can latter generate required energy. you therefore need to choose one for a specific application. however, when it comes to electricity
 the pv modules are good due to the fact that you can size them depending on your requirement starting with one module and increasing. concentrators for electricity is a large scale project - not so "modular". Lugano Logan Vilas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Would a standard PV module produce more when used with a Solar Concentrator or does it require a special PV module? Logan Vilas [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] Solar Concentrator PV Modules

[Michael Redler]

By now, you may have noticed my resistance to "conventional wisdom" whenever someone gives negative feedback about a particular energy scheme. Here is an example.The idea of concentrating light onto PV cells is a relatively new idea in some circles. What to do about waste heat is a natural progression in the discussion of such technology. But, why is it seen as such an obstacle - especially when schemes for harvesting waste heat are so abundant in energy related discussions?You wrote: "...regular PV is cheap enough that the simplicity of not havingmoving parts will probably outweigh any advantage of trying to get more from the same amount of silicon."The sweeping statements are getting old Zeke. Adding trackers become advantageous when you run out of roof. By the way PV that works on concentrated sunlight isn't so exotic and will probably become the PV of choice in a
 large percentage of applications.The largecost ofconcentrating PV is likely to be offset byan increase in power conversionrequiring the use of heliostats, tracking technology and those pesky moving parts.MikeZeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Most of the highest efficiency PV cells do use concentrators. Theseare the 35% efficient super exotic ones that NREL and others areworking on. Compared to 20% which is about the highest commercialsingle sun efficiency right now. In general the power produced by aPV cell is linearly related to the energy input. More sun = morepower. So if you put 25 suns on it, you get 25 times the amount ofpower from the same cell (assuming you don't change the spectralcomposition of the l ight). It's not
 quite linear, so I think youactually get a tiny bit more power at higher concentrations than justthe concentration ratio would imply -- say 28 instead of 25. Theproblem is that a typical crystalline silicon cell also decreased itspower about 0.5% for each degree celsius the temperature goes up. Soif you increase the operating temperature of the cell from 60C(typical for one sun) to 200C, you've just lost all the power yougained by putting more light on it Plus if you get too hot,you'll damage it -- usually the encapsulating material degrades wellbefore the temperature at which the actual PV cell is damaged though.The other thing is that concentrators require tracking the sun usually(at least to achieve more than 2 or 3 times concentration. Thisintroduces moving parts to the equation, and destroys one of the nicefeatures of PV. If it's a big central power station where you canhire a full time maintenance operator,
 then go ahead. If for your ownhouse, regular PV is cheap enough that the simplicity of not havingmoving parts will probably outweigh any advantage of trying to getmore from the same amount of silicon.ZekeOn 5/12/06, Joe Street <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Actually mirrors can be used to concentrate the light from a large area onto a small high efficiency solar cell. It is being done. This is one of the justifications for the cost of high efficiency cells but the extra cost of the concentrators and the lengths one has to go to to keep from overheating the PV module unfortunately outstrip the savings the idea hopes to offer. Too bad but on the other hand if you are just fortunate to have access to heterojunction cells on the cheap then maybe you should go for it! You will need a liquid cooled backing plate for the cells but if you are crafty you might be able to use
 the rejected heat somehow as well! Joe Lugano Wilson wrote:  hi Logan.   PV modules and solar concentrators are two different technologies and  unfortunately, their individual energy capture principle is  contradicting to each other. consequently, they can not be used at same  application. PV modules need to absorb all the solar radiation so as to  generate electricity through the module cells where as solar  concentrators have to reflect all the solar radiation and direct it at a  specific location (ie concentrated) for the purpose of heating a medium  that can latter generate required energy. you therefore need to choose  one for a specific application. however, when it comes to electricity  the pv modules are good due to the fact that you can size them depending  on
 your requirement starting with one module and increasing.  concentrators for electricity is a large scale project - not so "modular".   Lugano   */Logan Vilas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote:   Would a standard PV module produce more when used with a Solar  Concentrator  or does it require a special PV module?   Logan Vilas  [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu Hoax

[Michael Redler]

Only if they can use tax dollars to build gulags and assassinate with impunity.We're not their yet.MikeJason  Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  i believe someone referred to the socialist/communist farce in the USSR as stalinist? would that be a fitting label?- Original Message - From: "Zeke Yewdall" To: Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 9:29 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] The Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu HoaxI would say agree that the democrats are not very good socialists -- morons would be the best description I can think of for them. On 5/12/06, Michael Redler  wrote: Ray, Democrats make piss-poor socialists and to
 imply that that they are, is  an insult to socialists. If Teddy Kennedy ran in a true socialist election,  I doubt that he would get a single vote - even if he were the only  candidate. However, there are candidates who run as members of the socialist party. They are clearly noticeable by their intelligent and articulate responses  to the issues, their concern for the working class, and virtual invisibility  in the "mainstream" media. Camejo's campaign gives the right answers http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/470/470_04_Camejo.shtml The Democrats aren't a solution http://www.socialistworker.org/2003-2/461/461_04_OtherLetters.shtml#Dems The presidential campaigns of Socialist Party leader Eugene Debs
 http://www.socialistworker.org/2004-2/514/514_08_Debs.shtml Mike Ray in Atlanta GA  wrote: Unfortunately, both the socialists, whoops Democrats, and the fascists, excuse me, I mean Republicans, are all busy breaking their necks to jump on Shrub's band wagon. Ray in Atlanta GA D. Mindock wrote:  This seems to be inline with the idea of a police state. Collect all  the info on citizens possible to be stored in  a huge database. The cuckoo bird flu scare (a hoax) is to get us to   accept  that anyone can be detained for silly reasons along with the database   of  your airline flights. When  they say the data is to be maintained for at least two months, you
 can  believe it will be much longer than that. Just like  your online traffic through your ISP, all of it, is to be maintained   for  at least a year thanks to a proposal by US Congresswoman DeGette  (D-CO). Yes, she calls herself a Democrat. We need to write our   Congress  reps that this BS won't fly with us. It is wrong that the NSA and the  Pentagon are spying on us. BushCo is a fear based, secretive,  devisive, newspeak government that is totally controlled by corporate  powers. I think this is the definition of a fascist regime. No wonder  the world is becoming terrified of our goverment. Bush and Dead-Eye  Dick appear to be out-of-control.  Work for Peace, D. MindockThe Hidden Agenda Behind the Bird Flu
 Hoax Bird FluA plan to quarantine sick airline and ship passengers in order  to combat a potential bird flu outbreak has outraged health experts,  airlines, and civil libertarians.   *Three-Day Quarantine*   Sick passengers would be identified by flight attendants, pilots and  cruise ship crews. Passengers identified as sick could be detained in  quarantine for as long as three days.   *Detailed Information*   The proposed rules would also require airlines to collect detailed  contact information from their passengers, including the names of any  traveling companions and precise information regarding travel plans.   The  information would be stored for at
 least two months, and would be  provided to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) at any time the  government asked for it.   USA Today   April 25, 2006 [snip] ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list
 Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000  messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ --  No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.5.6/337 - Release Date: 5/11/2006 ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
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Re: [Biofuel] Torture and/or Nuking Iran -- was Re: Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran

[Michael Redler]

"My point is not that people should not try to learn and do what is right and correct...it is that you CANNOT hold someone responsible for something that they have no CONTROL over. That is by its very definition, unfair."YouCANhold someone accountable for not acting locally to build a base from which to control something whichis attempting toharm to you, your family,oryour community.Someone who ignoreswhat should be resisted, should get the same attentionyou'd givesomeone who wishes to harm you.  Mike R.Randall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Keith,My point is not that people should not try to learn and do what is
 right and correct...it is that you CANNOT hold someone responsible for something that they have no CONTROL over. That is by its very definition, unfair. That is middle ages thinking at best. To be blunt, I generally do not care what someone from another country thinks of my country when I know that their country is doing much of the same thing that they complain about my country doing. They are just being hypocrites--knowingly or unknowingly--and are usually just ignored.You say over and over that information has been out there for people to gleen for years and years. True. However, how many people prior to the Internet, had the ability to search for and VERIFY information with the ease of today? 30 years ago, you would have needed access to a well equipped library with a large microfilm/microfiche archive, the time to browse for the relevant articles, read and then understand them. I would venture a guess that
 most people simply did not have 10 to 20 hours a week to simply read everything of interest to find something that may not be right in the world. That is where the "modern" media has done its disservice...the "help" by condensing this tremendous amount of information into something digestable to the average person. The PROBLEM as you have pointed out repeatedly is that there is a BIAS in the spin/digestion that is generally unhealthy and untrue.So, when you lambast people for not investigating enough, please temper your ire with understanding that most people are not by nature researchers. It takes a special type of person to be able to read, categorize, understand and verify large amounts of information. There surely is no way of knowing something if you don't want to know it. The opinion manufacturing industry doesn't really hide things as much as render them uninteresting, the eye slides away, the
 ear goes deaf, the attention wanders. It works very well. But not on everybody. Not everybody is deaf to the truth, not everybody swallows the lies. Why's that? How do some people - many people - manage to stay awake and alert and undeceived? That has a bearing on complicity, don't you think?Keep in mind that desire does not always play a key role in knowing something. Simply put, you do not know what you do not know. You can spend your entire life learning new things and have no time to DO anything with that knowledge. This does not excuse everything, but it explains some things. It is quite true that everyone is not deaf to the truth...hence this list and the great work you have done in nutruring, maintaining and helping it grow along with JTF. Let me say "Thanks" right now...it has been very helpful for me personally, and quite a few people that I have pointed towards it.You also say
 that asking people that are trying to help if their actions are effective is heartless. I disagree wholeheartedly. If people do not stop and reassess what they are doing periodically, they risk causing more problems then they solve. That is the heart of learning and progress. There are other questions that I would ask you, but would do so off-list. But, someone who is trying to help, should never mind someone asking them questions, including "is it working?"My activities have not been as far-ranging and involved as your's...but I have spent quite a few years trying to get people to THINK and consider options to just believing everything they see, hear or read. I can bring up even more topics ranging from the purely ecomonic, to the environmental and finally to "conspiracy" related items in this mailing list, but it would be out of place here. You have done a good job balancing this list, and that is
 important.It is more than ok to ask someone what they are doing with their life. Most recently, me and my wife have started trying to expand our effort to help some orphans in Ukraine and Russia. My wife is Ukrainian and she and some of her family (in Russia and Ukraine) have suffered directly from Chernobyl explosion and other problems. I do not think that it is helpful to try to to see who can "out help" other people...nor do I think it is helpful or polite to blame people for the actions of others.People have different abilities and capabilities to help...I wish I had more time, but our 15 month-old son needs our attention as well, and he doesn't yet (but he will) understand why daddy needs to 

Re: [Biofuel] Poll in favor of bombing Iran

[Michael Redler]

Hakan,"...so also the fight against an illusive communism.""Illusive" is a good word to describe it, although I prefer to call it non-existant?The confrontation was betweenthe US andan expanding fascist empire in Russia. However, calling it "communist"is as deceptive as the so called "war on terror", "war on drugs" or "war on...", etc. Either way, I think we're on the same page and in my opinion, your observation is an important one."When the Stalinist bureaucracy arose beginning in the early 1920s, Trotsky, who had been the key organizer of the 1917 insurrection and who had led the Red Army to victory in the Civil War, became the champion of the fight against Stalin. Before his death in 1924, Lenin had begun to challenge the rising bureaucracy, which included a proposal (suppressed by the central committee after his death) to remove Stalin from his position as General Secretary of the
 party."http://www.socialistworker.org/2005-1/543/543_09_Intenationalism.shtml  MikeHakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   It goes deeper than short memory and only the Bush machine. Bush is only taking unfair advantages of a much large and loner term effort. For the Americans the WWII has not yet stopped, so also the fight against an illusive communism. It is a part of the general picture of keeping the Americans happy in their belive about heroism and the "good purposes", it is a part of empire building. It is not new, the Greeks and Romans understood this well, with the gladiator games. They keep us, the public, entertained and controllable. The motives and
 the gains are obscure with smoke screen of higher moral values. AH understood this and voiced many times an envy over the American skills. He built his propaganda apparatus with US as the model, he was especially impressed by the Hollywood part of it. Hakan At 04:54 08/05/2006, you wrote:  I think this poll shows how the short term memory of Americans is totally lacking. Also it showshow effective the propaganda machine of BushCo is. In a word, terrorfying.Peace, D. Mindock P.S. We have met the enemy and he is us.Poll: Strong U.S. Support for Bombing Iran An Internet poll sponsored by NewsMax.com reveals that Americans are overwhelmingly in favor of the United States undertaking military action to stop Iran's nuclear weapons program. Nearly 60,000 people have
 taken part in the poll so far, and more than nine out of 10 say U.S. efforts to contain Iran's weapons program are not working. A large majority of respondents also believe that Iran poses a greater threat than Saddam Hussein did before the Iraq War. NewsMax will provide the results of this poll to major media and share them with radio talk-show hosts across the country. Here are the poll questions and results:1) Do you believe U.S. efforts to contain Iran's nuclear weapons program are working?Working: 7 percentNot Working: 93 percent 2) Should the United States rely solely on the U.N. to stop Iran's nuclear weapons program?Yes: 11 percentNo: 89 percent 3) Do you believe Iran poses a greater threat than Saddam Hussein did before the Iraq
 War?Yes: 88 percentNo: 12 percent 4) Should the U.S. undertake military action against Iran to stop their program?Yes: 77 percentNo: 23 percent 5) Who should undertake military action against Iran first?U.S.: 45 percentIsrael: 35 percentNeither: 20 percent ___
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Re: [Biofuel] Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran

[Michael Redler]

"...they site a poll WITH HEADLINES that says Fox is the most trusted news source in the U.S.,..."Nice catch Mike. Despite NewsMax catering to right wing interests, I think that the polls are believable, especiallyconsidering the astounding progress made by the current regime through channels like Fox.Parts of the news media have been in colusion with the government for a very long time and the tactics used to influence the masses was openly acknowledged back in the Wilson adminisration. Hakan's observations are also an indication of that same colusion.So, in my opinion, the question becomes; Is NewsMax manufacturing consent or just reporting back on the progress they've already made?MikeMK DuPree
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Hi Fritz and everyone...polls...hmmm...can anyone tell me more about "NewsMax"? Who owns and controls this website? Fritz, have you asked anyone at NewsMax how this poll was conducted?What are the demographics of this poll?I see on their homepage as of today, Sunday, May 7, just after 7pm Central (USA), where they site a poll WITH HEADLINES that says Fox is the most trusted news source in the U.S., but the story says we're talking about 11% of the public making it this "popular." Hey, if only roughly One in Ten Americans are fatheads, we're not doin' too bad. I wouldn't be surprised if a large percentage
 of these 11% make up the largest percentage of the "voters" who answered the NewsMaxpoll, which would make that "77%" actually an incredibly small percentage of the U.S. population. Sorry you blame the "ordinary" U.S. citizen for however our government acts. What's the deal in your country? Is your government walking in lockstep with the will of the overwhelming majority of the "ordinary" citizens? Whatis "ordinary" anyway I'll leave it at that for now. Mike- Original Message - From: Fritz Friesinger   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org   Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 5:09 PM  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Poll in favor of Nukes on IranHakan,  indeed dejea vu,  once the propagandamachine works as fine as it does in the US,all out war is'nt far away!  The whole polemic about the communist threat BS, it was and is always the migthy US who uses Nukes to intimidate the rest of the world!  I dispise them for it
 and can not help to blame the ordinary US Citicen.As a German i felt long time the blame for the wrong doeings of the Nazis even i was born in 48!  eh bien and so on...  Get better Hakan,there is no time to loose  Fritz- Original Message -   From: Hakan Falk   To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org   Sent: Sunday, May 07, 2006 5:23 PM  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran  Fritz,Have a strong feeling of dejavu and this time I will save the info in a special place. Pre Iraq, I saw similar figures and also some support on this list. Today it is overwhelming negative numbers in support for the Iraq war and approval ratings for the president. Maybe I should frame this, for future use.Talk about a violent population, 77% in support of military action and killing Iranians. In two years we will have 65% in denial and against the US engagement in Iran. It will be an even bigger mess than Iraq, with attacks all over the world.Hakan[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] Poll in favor of bombing Iran

[Michael Redler]

Hakan,You said: "What I mean is that it could easily replace both communism and capitalism, since it is and has always been a question of which "elite" group that take the power."I respectfully disagree.Re: Replacing Communism1.) You can't replace whathasn't existed. If you mean Stalinism, then say it.2.) Show me where Marx proposes elitism in the manifesto. Communism wasA RESPONSE TO elitism and the imbalance of a class society.Re: Replacing Capitalism - Corporatism and capitalismmust coexist.One representsthe logical progression of the other and (IMO) can only be quantified since it's existence is a forgone conclusion.I don't evenfeel comfortable making a direct comparison between capitalism and any model of government sinceelements ofit exists everywhere. Both capitalism and libertarianism exist in democracies as well as anarchist states (for
 example). They are elements of a larger scheme.If Lenin and the Bolsheviks were supported by corporations, it certainly wasn't welcome (unless of course they were willing to redistribute their wealth).Early in the revolution, Trotsky and the Mensheviks mayhave welcomed that kind of support (although I doubt it) until hejoined Leninand fought together on the same side.You need to back up your statement withsome more information. To my knowledge,there weremany events that led to the Russian revolution, like the February 1917 breadriot duringa woman's daycelebration. Thecounterinsurgency was fought by theCzar's White Armywith troop support fromthe US. I know of no serious contribution to the Bolsheviks byUS corporations. If anything, corporations may have assisted in putting down the revolution by supporting Stalin.Mike 
   Hakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Mike,Since I think I introduced corporacracy (in greek, corporation power as opposite to democracy that is people power) on this list and think it describes well this phenomena. A logical definition of capitalism is today is better described as corporatism. What I mean is that it could easily replace both communism and capitalism, since it is and has always been a question of which "elite" group that take the power. Interesting that you brought in Stalin in this, maybe he and Bush are only the two sides of the same coin, in representing a relatively small groups interests. Lenin by the way, was heavily supported by the emerging American corporations, who instigated the Russian revolution.HakanAt
 14:25 08/05/2006, you wrote:Hakan,"...so also the fight against an illusive communism.""Illusive" is a good word to describe it, although I prefer to call it non-existant?The confrontation was between the US and an expanding fascist empire in Russia. However, calling it "communist" is as deceptive as the so called "war on terror", "war on drugs" or "war on...", etc. Either way, I think we're on the same page and in my opinion, your observation is an important one."When the Stalinist bureaucracy arose beginning in the early 1920s, Trotsky, who had been the key organizer of the 1917 insurrection and who had led the Red Army to victory in the Civil War, became the champion of the fight against Stalin. Before his death in 1924, Lenin had begun to challenge the rising bureaucracy, which included a proposal (suppressed by the
 central committee after his death) to remove Stalin from his position as General Secretary of the party."http://www.socialistworker.org/2005-1/543/543_09_Intenationalism.shtmlMikeHakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:It goes deeper than short memory and only the Bush machine. Bush is only taking unfair advantages of a much large and loner term effort. For the Americans the WWII has not yet stopped, so also the fight against an illusive communism.It is a part of the general picture of keeping the Americans happy in their belive about heroism and the "good purposes", it is a part of empire building. It is not new, the Greeks and Romans understood this well, with the gladiator games. They keep us, the public, entertained and controllable. The motives
 and the gains are obscure with smoke screen of higher moral values.AH understood this and voiced many times an envy over the American skills. He built his propaganda apparatus with US as the model, he was especially impressed by the Hollywood part of it.Hakan[snip]___
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[Biofuel] jelly and jellybiofuel question

[Michael Redler]

My (future) brother-in-law and I were cleaning his garage and came a cross A LOT of warped dry wall.To my knowledge, dry wall is composed mostly of gypsum, a very soft mineral composed of calcium sulfate dihydrate, with the chemical formula CaSO4·2H2O (thank you Wikipedia). 
   We already discussed calcium acetate (egg shells) mixed with vinegar to create a kind of jelly to whichethanol can be added.http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg53392.htmlSohow about ground-up dry wall and vinegar?Mike___
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Re: [Biofuel] Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran

[Michael Redler]

Maybe the high fructose corn syrup and beef lobby subsidies that makes us the fattest country in the world, also contributes to short term memory loss,an even bigger killer in the US.(BTW) Do you think Steven Colbert stays awake at night, worried that he'll run out of material - even if he doesn't have a repeat customer at the White House?MikeHakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Fritz,Have a strong feeling of dejavu and this time I will save the info in a special place. Pre Iraq, I saw similar figures and also some support on this list. Today it is overwhelming negative numbers in support for the Iraq war and approval ratings for the president. Maybe I should frame this, for future use.Talk about a violent population, 77%
 in support of military action and killing Iranians. In two years we will have 65% in denial and against the US engagement in Iran. It will be an even bigger mess than Iraq, with attacks all over the world.HakanAt 20:07 07/05/2006, you wrote:just receivedFritzPoll: Strong U.S. Support for Bombing IranAn Internet poll sponsored by NewsMax.com reveals that Americans are overwhelmingly in favor of the United States undertaking military action to stop Iran's nuclear weapons program.Nearly 60,000 people have taken part in the poll so far, and more than nine out of 10 say U.S. efforts to contain Iran's weapons program are not working.A large majority of respondents also believe that Iran poses a greater threat than Saddam Hussein did before the Iraq War.NewsMax will provide the results of this poll to
 major media and share them with radio talk-show hosts across the country.Here are the poll questions and results:1) Do you believe U.S. efforts to contain Iran's nuclear weapons program are working?Working: 7 percentNot Working: 93 percent2) Should the United States rely solely on the U.N. to stop Iran's nuclear weapons program?Yes: 11 percentNo: 89 percent3) Do you believe Iran poses a greater threat than Saddam Hussein did before the Iraq War?Yes: 88 percentNo: 12 percent4) Should the U.S. undertake military action against Iran to stop their program?Yes: 77 percentNo: 23 percent5) Who should undertake military action against Iran first?U.S.: 45 percentIsrael: 35 percentNeither: 20 percent___
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Re: [Biofuel] PLEASE READ - Re: Sweet catalyst continuous processes

[Michael Redler]

Hey, I just wanted to put in my $.02 about Steve Spence.I was a member of both "wastewatts" and "12VDC" - both moderated (or owned)by Steve Spence. I invited him to speak at my local section of ASME, of which I chair. He was well received and found to be entertaining by the membership.Since then, I've become frustrated by the "ceiling" of knowledge one encounterswithboth of these groups. Steve is a pretty good study and I've seen him accurately regurgitate a lot of technical information. However, don't expect a great deal of theoretical knowledge or analytical abilities whendiscussing things conceptually.I finally left both groups after dissenting to another members opinion about deforestation andhow he claimed that "there are more trees now thanat the founding of this country". I sent a prickly reply that evenTodd might be proud of.This mindless debate was on top ofalready mounting
 frustration about the grouplooking more like an extended infomercialfor batteries and off-grid appliances.While others were building shopping lists and pretending they worked for consumer reports, I wanted to conspire with other members and design inverters and AC motor controls (for example). My hopes were that the schematicsand other technical details could be published in the public domain andhelp those whocouldn't (or didn't want to)simply buy everything.What helped expedite my decision wasfinding out that Stevescreens every message then,he explained"This isn'ta democracy". He closed with a smug smiley face.I believe that Steve might be on this list and laying low with an alias. If so, I doubt he will acknowledge any wrong doing.One final note: Of all the name listed in this thread, I haven't seen anyone mention the arrogant behavior of another list owner - Laren Corie. He
 runs a couple of YG's including "refrigerator alternatives" and a woodgas group.Mike  Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Yo dee ho Keith, This offlist stuff these folks do here happens especially if anyone mentions Aleks's Foolproof acid-base method, they really hate Aleks, though they've never encountered him in any way. He's at Journey to Forever but they're not, you see. (They hate Todd Swearingen too.)"Sniffle..., smurf..., snif..., huck."My feelings are oh so hurt. As girl Mark and Ginny in Denver so helpfully pointed out, forget everything there and start over.Doh!!! And then the self-appointed expert, at least expert enough as to declare others less than capable - that
 would be the poor dear Ginny in Denver - just couldn't seem to identify how or where she had fouled up a five gallon batch and started asking for help from anyone who had some insight.Had she not forgotten everything she had read at JTF (as she's instructed everyone else to do) it's rather doubtful that the dear would have found herself in midst of such a problem without a clue as to how to extract herself.Oh well. People pick their own poison.http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg37170.htmlI'd all but forgotten dear Mr. Legge. I still can't forgive myself for outing him (not!) and his nom de plume. Funny that. I don't think he's ever forgiven me either, sniff..., smurf..., snuffle..., snarf.Anyhow, thanks for the stroll down memory lane Keith. A nice, tidy, compressed nutshell of a package of destruction that's really screwed a lot of people that could have been doing a lot of good. Glad you still take
 some time to check the bilge pumps and make sure the sewage and it's rats don't decimate the entire grassroots biodiesel sector.Now if you'll forgive me, I'm headed to the pantry for a pint of black and tan and then I'm off to fake another 325 gallons of acid/base biodiesel..., you know..., Aleks' method that "doesn't work."Todd SwearingenKeith Addison wrote:Please note the bit at the end:"No further discussion please. As I said, we keep it away unless it needs saying, now it's said, so leave it, or it will only cause confusion and distraction, as intended."--Hello Jason they are discussing the sugar catalyst in detail athttp://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/419605551/m/9771067631/p/1 Sure they are, but if a person wanders in there the first thing that hits them
 is this: Saint Tilly, DD; KE; Sewer Rat (by appointment)"I didn't have to fiddle with it, it worked just fine,but I fiddled with it anyway and now it works even finer"Keith Addison explaining his cosmic theory of the Foolproof Disaster With ne'er a link to the original:http://snipurl.com/q2lzRe: [Biofuel] acid/base method for conversion of wvo to FAMEsNor to this, for instance:http://snipurl.com/q210[Biofuel] Water from Acid processAnd nobody says "er...":http://snipurl.com/pie8[Biofuel] Biodiesel test results99.09% completion says the GC, way better than standard spec. So what's the disaster? This: "It doesn't work." Uh-huh. But I'll come back to that.This is the barest tip of an iceberg, scratch it a bit and see what
 happens.Like what's with the "Sewer Rat 

Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List

[Michael Redler]

"Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list."Thank you. Thank you. What an honor it is to be chosen for this great, great award. I'd like to thank the academy for it's wonderful work and support. ...and of course this wouldn't be possible without a great cast and crew...oh...and of course Mom and Dad for making it all possible (it runs in the family).:-)- RedlerMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included. That's why I like it. "Regular" people bore me.Better a smart nut than a dull "normal" person...Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list.-MikeJason  Katie wrote:Sanity is
 the ability to doubt your own sanity.- Original Message - From: "MK DuPree" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List  Is this clear...or am I coming  off as the probable lunatic I might really be??? ___
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Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List

[Michael Redler]

Oops.It's not dejavu. You read that one already....sorry.If I keep repeating my nonsense, I might actually become a politician.Agh!!_"Except Redler. He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list."Thank you. Thank you. What an honor it is to be chosen for this great, great award. I'd like to thank the academy for it's wonderful work and support. ...and of course this wouldn't be possible without a great cast and crew...oh...and of course Mom and Dad for making it all possible (it runs in the family).:-)___
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Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List

[Michael Redler]

"Except Redler.  He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to   be the craziest person on the list."Thank you. Thank you. What an honor it is to be chosen for this great,  great award. I'd like to thank the academy for it's wonderful work and  support. ...and of course this wouldn't be possible without a great  cast and crew...oh...and of course Mom and Dad for making it all  possible (it runs in the family).:-)  - RedlerMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included.  That's why I like it.  "Regular" people bore me.Better a smart nut than a dull "normal" person...Except Redler.  He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list.-MikeJason  Katie
 wrote:Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity.- Original Message - From: "MK DuPree" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to List  Is this clear...or am I coming   off as the probable lunatic I might really be???___
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Re: [Biofuel] Redler for President

[Michael Redler]

Hey!!! That's not nice!I guess politics is dirty AND stinky.Besides, I want to be secretary of defense. I have a foolproof  alternative to resolving foreign policy conflicts. Our armies will no  longer need to carry rifles.As we speak, I have an elite force infiltrating hostile lands, causing confusion and chaos.http://www.tucsonweekly.com/gbase/Currents/Content?oid=81815...see also http://tinyurl.com/6ekee- Redler  Joe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  How about a biogas powered potato cannon? Redler can provide the gas I  think.  Mike Weaver wrote:  Slingshot?Joe Street wrote:Ohhh no.  I've already shot myself in the foot on many occasions and shotguns are too devastating.  I need something left to put in my mouth from time to time!JMike Weaver wrote:  I am afraid I must refuse to serve, because I believe that wanting the job indicates that one is unfit for the post.I propose we draft Redler for Pres. He might have a shotgun, which will come in handy for the VP, who should be Street.I would serve as Secretary of Energy in the Redler Administration, though.Joe Street wrote: Mike Weaver for President!!Sorry Redler.you can be VP as long as you don't own a shotgun.JMike Weaver wrote:   
  I personally think this list is mostly crackpots, me included.  That's why I like it.  "Regular" people bore me.Better a smart nut than a dull "normal" person...Except Redler.  He really is crazy, which annoys me, because I like to be the craziest person on the list.-MikeJason  Katie wrote: Sanity is the ability to doubt your own sanity.- Original Message - From: "MK DuPree" [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 11:14 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Iogen - Post to
 List[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] Fw: You won't believe Stephen Colbert at the White House Correspondents Dinner!

[Michael Redler]

Thank you!!Mike  "D. Mindock" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  I watched the two parts of the   video at Democratic Underground. Dubya is seriously roasted.
 Peace,   D. Mindock  This is utterly amazing. Stephen Colbert is one brave   truth-telling guy! I LOVE IT!!! Hooray for Helen Thomas, as well. I hope you   enjoy, too. Thanks, Ellen! Now I've got to go watch the   video...laughing all the way, jeannie  p.s. I REALLY REALLY recommend watching the video at Democratic   Underground. Please note there are two links, one for each of two  
 parts.jb  Re-Improved Colbert transcript (now with complete text of Colbert-Thomas   video!)   by Frederick   Sun Apr 30, 2006 at 11:04:01 AM PDT  I've taken the existing transcripts I've seen of Stephen Colbert's   brilliant monologue at the White House Correspondents Dinner, and the actual   footage (complete video available at Democratic   Underground), and edited the transcripts (correcting spelling and   punctuation, adding mistakenly omitted words, etc.) to produce the following   improved transcript. I have now also transcribed all of Colbert's Press   Secretary "audition video." Continue below the fold with
 me.  Frederick's diary :: :: STEPHEN COLBERT: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. Before I begin,   I've been asked to make an announcement. Whoever parked 14 black bulletproof   S.U.V.'s out front, could you please move them? They are blocking in 14 other   black bulletproof S.U.V.'s and they need to get out.   Wow. Wow, what an honor. The White House correspondents' dinner. To   actually sit here, at the same table with my hero, George W. Bush, to be this   close to the man. I feel like I'm dreaming. Somebody pinch me. You know what?   I'm a pretty sound sleeper -- that may not be enough. Somebody shoot me in the   face. Is he really not here tonight? Dammit. The one guy who could have helped. By the way, before I get started, if anybody needs anything else at their   tables, just speak
 slowly and clearly into your table numbers. Somebody from the   NSA will be right over with a cocktail. Mark Smith, ladies and gentlemen of the   press corps, Madame First Lady, Mr. President, my name is Stephen Colbert and   tonight it's my privilege to celebrate this president. We're not so different,   he and I. We get it. We're not brainiacs on the nerd patrol. We're not members   of the factinista. We go straight from the gut, right sir? That's where the   truth lies, right down here in the gut. Do you know you have more nerve endings   in your gut than you have in your head? You can look it up. I know some of you   are going to say I did look it up, and that's not true. That's cause you looked   it up in a book.  Next time, look it up in your gut. I did. My gut tells me that's how our   nervous system works. Every night on my show, the Colbert Report, I speak   straight from the gut, OK? I give people the truth, unfiltered by rational   argument. I call it
 the "No Fact Zone." Fox News, I hold a copyright on that   term.  I'm a simple man with a simple mind. I hold a simple set of beliefs that I   live by. Number one, I believe in America. I believe it exists. My gut tells me   I live there. I feel that it extends from the Atlantic to the Pacific, and I   strongly believe it has 50 states. And I cannot wait to see how the Washington   Post spins that one tomorrow. I believe in democracy. I believe democracy is our   greatest export. At least until China figures out a way to stamp it out of   plastic for three cents a unit.  In fact, Ambassador Zhou Wenzhong, welcome. Your great country makes our   Happy Meals possible. I said it's a celebration. I believe the government that   governs best is the government that governs least. And by these standards, we   have set up a fabulous government in Iraq.  I believe in pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps. I believe it is   possible -- I
 saw this guy do it once in Cirque du Soleil. It was magical. And   though I am a committed Christian, I believe that everyone has the right to   their own religion, be you Hindu, Jewish or Muslim. I believe there are infinite   paths to accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior.  Ladies and gentlemen, I believe it's yogurt. But I refuse to believe it's   not butter. Most of all, I believe in this president.  Now, I know there are some polls out there saying this man has a 32%   approval rating. But guys like us, we don't pay attention to the polls. We know   that polls are just a collection of statistics that reflect what people are   thinking in "reality." And reality has a well-known liberal bias.   So, Mr. President, please, pay no attention to the people that say the   glass is half full. 32% means the glass -- it's important to set up your jokes   properly, sir. Sir, pay no attention to the people who say the glass is half  
 empty, because 32% means it's 2/3 empty. There's still some liquid in that glass   is my point, but I 

Re: [Biofuel] Key House Panel Defeats Net Neutrality

[Michael Redler]

"You know, if one person, just one person does it they may think he's really sick andthey won't take him. And if two people, two people do it, in harmony,they may think they're both faggots and they won't take either of them.And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking insingin a bar of Alice's Restaurant and walking out. They may think it's anorganization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day, I saidfifty people a day walking in singin a bar of Alice's Restaurant andwalking out. And friends they may thinks it's a movement.And that's what it is , the Alice's Restaurant Anti-Massacre Movement, andall you got to do to join is sing it the next time it come's around on theguitar."  - Arlo Guthrie   http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/materchristi/vpost?id=765218 
 You can get anything you want at Addison's resturant (at JTF)!:-)  MikeMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Yeah, I think it is spelled "Police State"Jason  Katie wrote:if enough of the corporate corruption is bypassed, wouldnt that mean the government and its institutions had been completely supplanted by the "subversives"(aka, anyone not working as a gov't stooge)?- Original Message - From: Michael RedlerTo: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Friday, April 28, 2006 7:08 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] Key House Panel Defeats Net NeutralitySo, do we have a new movement joining the ranks of UFPJ and
 others - this time, to build a new internet and bypass the corporate corrupted one?MikeKeith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:http://snipurl.com/ps1xYahoo! NewsOpinionKey House Panel Defeats Net NeutralityJeff Chester Thu Apr 27, 5:26 PM ETThe Nation -- The GOP House leadership rejected calls Wednesday topreserve the Internet's open and democratic nature in the UnitedStates. Phone and cable industry lobbyists breathed a sigh of reliefas the House Energy and Commerce Committee defeated, 34 to 22, anamendment to a broadband communications bill (known as theBarton-Rush Act) that would require "network neutrality." Under theproposal, developed by Massacusetts Democrat Ed Markey and others,phone and cable companies would have been prohibited fromtransforming the Internet into a private,
 pay-as-you-post toll road.[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] Key House Panel Defeats Net Neutrality

[Michael Redler]

So, do we have a new movementjoining the ranks of UFPJ and others - this time, to build a new internetand bypass the corporate corrupted one?  MikeKeith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  http://snipurl.com/ps1xYahoo! NewsOpinionKey House Panel Defeats Net NeutralityJeff Chester Thu Apr 27, 5:26 PM ETThe Nation -- The GOP House leadership rejected calls Wednesday to preserve the Internet's open and democratic nature in the United States. Phone and cable industry lobbyists breathed a sigh of relief as the House Energy and Commerce Committee defeated, 34 to 22, an amendment to a broadband communications bill (known as the Barton-Rush Act) that would require "network neutrality." Under the proposal, developed by
 Massacusetts Democrat Ed Markey and others, phone and cable companies would have been prohibited from transforming the Internet into a private, pay-as-you-post toll road.Over the past week, there has been a remarkable outpouring of public and corporate support for network neutrality. SavetheInternet.com, organized by Free Press and representing dozens of nonprofit groups and leading Internet experts, helped generate 250,000 signatures in less than a week for an online petition calling on Congress to protect the Internet and pass the Markey bill.This new group, a collection of unusual bedfellows that runs the political gamut from Common Cause, the Gun Owners of America and the Parents TV Council to Craigslist founder Craig Newmark, also spurred many bloggers to take a strong stand (ranging from the liberal Daily Kos to the libertarian Instapundit).Meanwhile, Google, Microsoft, Yahoo!, Amazon, eBay and IAC,
 which make up the Network Neutrality Coalition, unveiled their "Don't Mess With the Net" campaign, running ads in Roll Call and The Hill targeting lawmakers. MoveOn.org's new Save the Internet campaign also generated many letters and e-mails to members of Congress.It is puzzling, though, why Microsoft, Google, Yahoo! and allies have not unleashed a serious--and very public--nationwide campaign in support of network neutrality. So far, these giants have worked cautiously, largely inside the Beltway, reflecting perhaps their corporate ambivalence about calling on Congress to pass Internet-related safeguards. Unlike the phone and cable efforts, there has been no saturation-TV or print-advertising campaign, something these deep-pocketed digital giants could eaily afford.This growing pressure on the Democrats to stand up for an open Internet helped convince House minority leader Nancy Pelosi to formally support
 the call for network neutrality. Consequently, only five House Commerce Committee Democrats voted with the GOP majority to kill the digital nondiscrimination plan, including Edolphus Townes (New York), Albert Wynn (Maryland), Charles Gonzalez (Texas), Bobby Rush (Illinois) and Gene Green (Texas). Only one Republican committee member, Heather Wilson of New Mexico, voted in support of the network neutrality amendment.Giants including ATT (SBC), Verizon, Comcast and Time Warner have staked their business plans for the Internet based on being able to control and "monetize" the flow of digital communications coming into PCs, digital TVs and mobile services. TheFederal Communications Commission--at the behest of the phone and cable lobby--recently overturned longstanding safeguards requiring the Internet to operate in a nondiscriminatory manner. The two industries are spending tens of millions of dollars to fight
 off any Congressional safeguard for the Internet that would restore the nondiscrimination principle.Commerce Committee chair Joe Barton and House SpeakerDennis Hastert have been the chief cheerleaders for the cable and phone lobby. On Wednesday, Barton derided the call for network neutrality, claiming that it's "still not clearly defined. It's kind of like pornography: You know it when you see it." Barton and Hastert are expected, as early as next week, to successfully pass the bill in the House without a network neutrality provision. A showdown is now looming in the Senate Commerce Committee, which is about to take up its own broadband Internet legislation. A bipartisan network neutrality amendment, similar to what was just defeated in the House committee, will be offered by Senators Olympia Snowe and Byron Dorgan. Public-interest advocates and corporate allies plan to mobilize an even larger outcry of
 support for this proposal.With midterm elections looming, GOP leaders will come under increasing pressure to make a choice. Will they continue to back their few phone and cable industry supporters and keep the open Internet safeguards off the table? Or will they recognize that a genuine digital-age protest movement is emerging that could further harm their party's chances in November? The next few weeks will reveal whether the "smart mobs" can win over a tiny handful of communications monopolists.___
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Re: [Biofuel] Key House Panel Defeats Net Neutrality

[Michael Redler]

So, do we have a new movementjoining the ranks of UFPJ and others - this time, to build a new internetand bypass the corporate corrupted one?  MikeKeith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  http://snipurl.com/ps1xYahoo! NewsOpinionKey House Panel Defeats Net NeutralityJeff Chester Thu Apr 27, 5:26 PM ETThe Nation -- The GOP House leadership rejected calls Wednesday to preserve the Internet's open and democratic nature in the United States. Phone and cable industry lobbyists breathed a sigh of relief as the House Energy and Commerce Committee defeated, 34 to 22, an amendment to a broadband communications bill (known as the Barton-Rush Act) that would require "network neutrality." Under the proposal, developed by
 Massacusetts Democrat Ed Markey and others, phone and cable companies would have been prohibited from transforming the Internet into a private, pay-as-you-post toll road.Over the past week, there has been a remarkable outpouring of public and corporate support for network neutrality. SavetheInternet.com, organized by Free Press and representing dozens of nonprofit groups and leading Internet experts, helped generate 250,000 signatures in less than a week for an online petition calling on Congress to protect the Internet and pass the Markey bill.This new group, a collection of unusual bedfellows that runs the political gamut from Common Cause, the Gun Owners of America and the Parents TV Council to Craigslist founder Craig Newmark, also spurred many bloggers to take a strong stand (ranging from the liberal Daily Kos to the libertarian Instapundit).Meanwhile, Google, Microsoft, Yahoo!, Amazon, eBay and IAC,
 which make up the Network Neutrality Coalition, unveiled their "Don't Mess With the Net" campaign, running ads in Roll Call and The Hill targeting lawmakers. MoveOn.org's new Save the Internet campaign also generated many letters and e-mails to members of Congress.It is puzzling, though, why Microsoft, Google, Yahoo! and allies have not unleashed a serious--and very public--nationwide campaign in support of network neutrality. So far, these giants have worked cautiously, largely inside the Beltway, reflecting perhaps their corporate ambivalence about calling on Congress to pass Internet-related safeguards. Unlike the phone and cable efforts, there has been no saturation-TV or print-advertising campaign, something these deep-pocketed digital giants could eaily afford.This growing pressure on the Democrats to stand up for an open Internet helped convince House minority leader Nancy Pelosi to formally support
 the call for network neutrality. Consequently, only five House Commerce Committee Democrats voted with the GOP majority to kill the digital nondiscrimination plan, including Edolphus Townes (New York), Albert Wynn (Maryland), Charles Gonzalez (Texas), Bobby Rush (Illinois) and Gene Green (Texas). Only one Republican committee member, Heather Wilson of New Mexico, voted in support of the network neutrality amendment.Giants including ATT (SBC), Verizon, Comcast and Time Warner have staked their business plans for the Internet based on being able to control and "monetize" the flow of digital communications coming into PCs, digital TVs and mobile services. TheFederal Communications Commission--at the behest of the phone and cable lobby--recently overturned longstanding safeguards requiring the Internet to operate in a nondiscriminatory manner. The two industries are spending tens of millions of dollars to fight
 off any Congressional safeguard for the Internet that would restore the nondiscrimination principle.Commerce Committee chair Joe Barton and House SpeakerDennis Hastert have been the chief cheerleaders for the cable and phone lobby. On Wednesday, Barton derided the call for network neutrality, claiming that it's "still not clearly defined. It's kind of like pornography: You know it when you see it." Barton and Hastert are expected, as early as next week, to successfully pass the bill in the House without a network neutrality provision. A showdown is now looming in the Senate Commerce Committee, which is about to take up its own broadband Internet legislation. A bipartisan network neutrality amendment, similar to what was just defeated in the House committee, will be offered by Senators Olympia Snowe and Byron Dorgan. Public-interest advocates and corporate allies plan to mobilize an even larger outcry of
 support for this proposal.With midterm elections looming, GOP leaders will come under increasing pressure to make a choice. Will they continue to back their few phone and cable industry supporters and keep the open Internet safeguards off the table? Or will they recognize that a genuine digital-age protest movement is emerging that could further harm their party's chances in November? The next few weeks will reveal whether the "smart mobs" can win over a tiny handful of communications monopolists.___
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[Biofuel] A Democratic Internet

[Michael Redler]

About ten+ years ago, I read an article about a state college in New York which was one of the first to experiment with wireless digital communications over HAM frequencies. I'm sorry that I don't have the source readily available (maybe someone can jump in here).This affirms the idea that when there is both a will and a means,corporations cannot limit or exclude something of great importance to the public.Articles like this should be distributed widelysince most violationsto all things democraticare done slowly,methodically and under our noses while the public is kept ill-informed.Anyone thinking of informing the public on a large scale, will be met with formidable resistance from elements of the American propaganda machine such as FOX.Looking at the bigger picture, I'm becoming optimistic as various democratic movements gain strength and the far right
 broadens there list of anti-Americans to include Pulitzer Prize winners. It won't be long before they hate everybody and look even more ridiculous in the process.MikeKeith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/04/25/a_democratic_internet.phpA Democratic InternetArt BrodskyApril 25, 2006Art Brodsky is communications director for Public Knowledge , a public interest group working at the intersection of information and technology policy. Right now, you're reading TomPaine.com because you want to, and because you can. Those two principles have been the reason the Internet as we know it has been so successful for almost 20 years. The Internet as we know it provides infinite choice to those who use it, and easy access to
 customers and consumers for those who have a service to provide. No printing presses are needed, no buying of paper, no distribution. Those major expenses, which for years had to be borne by publications, have all disappeared with the World Wide Web. All TomPaine.com -or any website-needs (technically speaking, of course) are computers, servers and access to the Internet.The result has been the most unique explosion of creativity in history. This was all made possible because the Internet was open to anyone who wanted to go looking for interesting material or who wanted to create interesting material, and because anyone with a good idea could put it out there and see what happens. Google happens. Yahoo happens. YouTube happens.At the heart of what the Internet used to be was a law, the Communications Act, which had in it the basic principle of what is called "common carriage." This means that telephone
 companies had no control over which traffic flowed through their networks. The network was merely the carrier between the two ends. The ability of people creating text or music or video as either consumer or company was enhanced because the network in the middle had no say about how the material would be handled.Now, that could all be lost, destroyed by a coalition of the entire telecom industry. ATT, Verizon, Comcast, Time Warner and all the assorted smaller telecom companies want to insert themselves between you and where you go on the Web, and between service providers and what they put online. The Bell Behemoths and their Cable Companions can do this because the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) decided last year that high-speed broadband services like the Digital Subscriber Line (DSL) provided by telephone companies or cable modem services from the telephone companies aren't subject to any
 regulations.The FCC decision eliminated the rules that allowed users in the dial-up era to go online without any interference or influence from telephone companies about where users go on the Web or how well services would work. Under the new non-regulatory regime, anything is possible. Before, it was up to the consumer to determine how much to spend on Internet access, a little for dial-up, more for broadband. It was never a choice between a service that worked better or worse at the discretion of the telephone company. As we enter the high-speed Internet age, it will be a game without rules, with both consumers and service providers at the mercy of the telecom giants.The Big Boys want to keep it that way, and are working the congressional game with their usual combination of expertise and brute force to make sure it happens. On the other side is a coalition of public interest groups and non-profits bolstered
 by a coalition of large, but very inexperienced, online companies. Yahoo, Google and Amazon may be the darlings of the e-commerce world, but they are rookies when it comes to playing the Hill. The venue for this contest will be the House Committee on Energy and Commerce on Wednesday, April 26, when the competing visions of the Internet will collide.[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

[Michael Redler]

Weave! You smart aleckPUNK (spray/cough)!Where's my cane?!Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Redler is old.Michael Redler wrote: By the way, even though I quoted the lyrics, I didn't think it  came from Zack, I thought it was much older than that (otherwise, I  would have given the source).  Mike */Jason  Katie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: how old are you mike? not often do i see Rage's lyrics in a conversation. - Original Message - From: Michael Redler To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:52 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

[Michael Redler]

I wasn't a mechanic (although I knew my way around a shop). My father is a pipeline welder and steam fitter and most of my friends are in industry or the building trades. I had a bigger interest in understanding how things worked. So, I decided to go to school and become an engineer. I'm the only person in my family or circle of friends to have gone to college.Re: TDI - I'm told that people are linking palm pilots to their car computers to improve performance.MikeMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Oops - you're younger than me.Were you a mechanic? I was, wy back when.Now you hot rod cars with a computer. I souped up my TDI with a chip, software and an air intake. Still thinking about injectors...-MMichael Redler
 wrote: I'm a 39 year old, first generation "head banger" and grew up  listening to Van Halen, Led Zeppelin, Accept, Ozzy, Hendrix, Crue,  Zappa, etc. In high school, I had shoulder length hair and spent my  time with lots of garage mechanics who liked to make their cars go  fast (I went to a trade school). My taste in music has broadened since high school and I get into  everything from Beethoven to bag pipes to Slayer. Most important, I  listen to the words (when there are words) and I think Zack is a  gifted poet.  I've quoted him once before (alongside Lincoln): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg60453.html  Some of the most powerful lyrics I've ever heard comes from his song  "Born of a Broken Man"  His thoughts like a hundred moths Trapped in a lampshade Somewhere
 within Their wings banging and burning On through endless night Forever awake he lies shaking and starving Praying for someone to turn off the light  I think it's right up there with Joni Mitchell's "The Fiddle and the  Drum" and even some of Dylan's stuff.  ...motivation for fighting propaganda from that rag, The Economist.  Mike___
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Re: [Biofuel] A Democratic Internet

[Michael Redler]

Thanks Joe!You answered questions that I didn't even know enough to ask. Your post is VERY informative andencouraging.MikeJoe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Well try more like 30 years ago, another good ol Canadian boy Doug Lockhart (VE7ADU) began transmitting digital 'packetized' data and things progressed from there. The evolution of HTTP and TCP/IP can be traced back to amateur radio digital packet protocols. You can find some history on the web by googling packet radio. We had a discussion about this before. I believe it is impossible to stop us hackers from creating our own wide area networks independant of the big players if push comes to shove.JoeMichael Redler wrote:About ten+ years ago, I read an article about a state college in New York which was one of the first to experiment with wireless digital communications over HAM frequencies. I'm sorry that I don't have the source readily available (maybe someone can jump in here).This affirms the idea that when there is both a will and a means,corporations cannot limit or exclude something of great importance to the public.Articles like this should be distributed widelysince most violationsto all things democraticare done slowly,methodically and under our noses while the public is kept ill-informed.Anyone thinking of informing the public on a large scale, will be met with formidable resistance from elements of the American propaganda machine such as FOX.Looking at the bigger picture, I'm becoming
 optimistic as various democratic movements gain strength and the far right broadens there list of anti-Americans to include Pulitzer Prize winners. It won't be long before they hate everybody and look even more ridiculous in the process.MikeKeith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/04/25/a_democratic_internet.phpA Democratic InternetArt BrodskyApril 25, 2006Art Brodsky is communications director for Public Knowledge , a public interest group working at the intersection of information and technology policy.
 [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] Protest lyrics

[Michael Redler]

Touche!I have the Perfect Circle CD and it also has a version of the Fiddle and the Drum which I like.MikeJoe Street [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Ok Redler;So long as were quoting song lyrics apropos to the times and all of Bush's crap, how about these from Mark Knopfler" I am Just an aging drummer boy and in the wars I used to play,and I've called a tune to many a torchin' session.Now they say I am a war criminal and I'm fading away,Father please hear my confession.I have legalized robbery and called it belief,I have run with the money,I have hid like a theif,Re-written history with my armies and my crooks,Invented memories; I did burn all the books.And I can still here his laughter and I can still hear
 his songthe man's to big, the man's too strong."JoeBTW have you seen the new version of 'Imagine' by lennon redone by A Perfec Circle?http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2664613?htv=12Brings a whole new meaning to the song and it's strange and erie how the lyrics work that way___
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Re: [Biofuel] Soupy TDI was economist

[Michael Redler]

Hey Joe  wadya doin' wit dat Rocket Chip in yo handJimi Hendrix (revisited):-)Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Hey Joe (with apologies to Jimi Hendrix)Rocket chip, I used VAG-COM from Ross Tech to change when to turbo kicks in and a few other things. I also added a high flow intake and KN filter. There are tons of things on the net - google tdiclub and stealthtdi. The car seems like a different car - much more power and I don't notice any drop in mileage. There is a bit of a tendancy to stomp it for fun, tho'. I can pull hills in 5th that used to need 4th. You can go further but some people say the clutch isn't up to it. My car has more than enough power and gets 60 mpg on flat road at 59
 mph.-Mike[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

[Michael Redler]

That's a lot of information to put in one's head in such a short time.Neo! Is that you?:-)  Jason  Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  thats not fair, i listen to most of what he listed and probably most of what he didnt, and im 22, so, bleh ;P- Original Message - From: "Mike Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: <BIOFUEL@SUSTAINABLELISTS.ORG>Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 8:17 AMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil? Redler is old. Michael Redler wrote: By the way, even though I quoted the lyrics, I didn't think it came from Zack, I thought it was much older than that (otherwise,
 I would have given the source). Mike[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

[Michael Redler]

Temporarily?There is something about that word that makes me uncomfortable. We've been in the process of"temporary sustainability" [paraphrase] for at least thirty years. There is nothing temporary about it.My interpretation of this philosophy is that "temporary" is simply an extension through which the rich will get richer and the date on whichgovernments decide to get serious is pushed further into the future.Temporary means a delay of sustainable fuel development and the environmental impact of that delay is not something we can afford.If you want to promote sustainability, incrementally replace diminishing supplies of oil with ethanol and other agriculturally based fuel while broadening the search for more sustainable energy technologies. Instead, those potential funds are being used to drill wells and dig mines. 
   What better place than here?  What better time than now?MikePaul S Cantrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  In addition, if you look at the world coal reserves,link here: http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/coal.htmlThe top 5 are:1 US2 Russia3 China4 India5 AustraliaOn 4/26/06, bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: like it or not, that is the most likely pathway to temporarily sustain the unsustainable. The governor of Montana is currently touting coal liquification (and throwing in "clean coal" buzz words all the while), ethanol plants utilize coal for process, thereby indirectly converting coal to liquids.I agree, Bob. The countries consuming the most are the ones
 thatwould benefit the most from CTL technologies. the environment be damned, full speed ahead. Jason  Katie wrote:  i'd be happy to buy a diesel, but no way in hell will it run on coal-base. [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

[Michael Redler]

I'm a 39 year old, first generation "head banger" and grew up listening to Van Halen, Led Zeppelin, Accept, Ozzy, Hendrix, Crue, Zappa, etc. In high school, I had shoulder length hair and spent my time with lots of garage mechanics who liked to make their cars go fast (I went to a trade school).My taste in music has broadened since high school and I get into everything from Beethoven to bag pipes to Slayer. Most important, I listen to the words (when there are words) and I think Zack is a gifted poet.I've quoted him once before (alongside Lincoln):  http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg60453.htmlSome of the most powerful lyrics I've ever heard comes from his song "Born of a Broken Man"His thoughts like a hundred mothsTrapped in a
 lampshadeSomewhere withinTheir wings banging and burningOn through endless nightForever awake he lies shaking and starvingPraying for someone to turn off the lightI think it's right up there with Joni Mitchell's "The Fiddle and the Drum" and even some of Dylan's stuff....motivation for fighting propaganda from that rag, The Economist.Mike  Jason  Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  how old are you mike?not often do i see Rage's lyrics in a conversation.- Original Message - From: Michael RedlerTo: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:52 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of
 oil?Temporarily?There is something about that word that makes me uncomfortable. We've been in the process of "temporary sustainability" [paraphrase] for at least thirty years. There is nothing temporary about it.My interpretation of this philosophy is that "temporary" is simply an extension through which the rich will get richer and the date on which governments decide to get serious is pushed further into the future.Temporary means a delay of sustainable fuel development and the environmental impact of that delay is not something we can afford.If you want to promote sustainability, incrementally replace diminishing supplies of oil with ethanol and other agriculturally based fuel while broadening the search for more sustainable energy technologies. Instead, those potential funds are being used to drill wells and dig mines.What better place than here?What better time than
 now?MikePaul S Cantrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:In addition, if you look at the world coal reserves,link here: http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ieo/coal.htmlThe top 5 are:1 US2 Russia3 China4 India5 Australia[snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

[Michael Redler]

By the way, even though I quoted the lyrics, I didn't think it camefrom Zack, I thought it was much older than that (otherwise, I would have given the source).MikeJason  Katie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  how old are you mike?not often do i see Rage's lyrics in a conversation.- Original Message - From: Michael RedlerTo: biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wednesday, April 26, 2006 3:52 PMSubject: Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

[Michael Redler]

Schizophrenic/Procrastinating/Clueless economists:They concede to:The rising costs of oil exploration  The eminent peak and subsequent end to oil as a main source of fuel  The fact that for every three barrels used there is only onebarrel of newly discovered oil to replenish it.At the same time they seem to feel that new technology and techniques in exploration and the resulting increase in yield allows you to delay the peak.They alsomake the sweeping statement that "the World is not about to run out of oil".What does "about" mean and when will they have the foresight to see the value of doing something sooner rather than later? More importantly, who is "the World" and when are they going to count countries (i.e. Iraq) who areslowly losing control of their oil.
What a bunch of crap!Weaver!! You couldn't leave well enough alone, could you.Mike  Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6823506___
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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

[Michael Redler]

The great thing about the dialog we are having is that it is (conceivably) a permanent record of the times, creating perhaps a smaller task for revisionist historians in the future. The Neo-Conservatives of today will be compared (even more) to the cast of characters in Arthur Miller's "The Crucible".Now all we need is for someone to read it in a hundred years (assuming our species is still around)....gotta go. My alien implant is bugging me again.MikeHakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  LOL!US have huge amounts of coal, one third of known world reserves. Now it is only left to get the Americans to buy diesel vehicles 1% of current autos, to levels like Europes 50% of current vehicles. So instead of
 dependance of foreign oil, US will be dependent of foreign autos, but it is a large improvement of the situation anyway. Diesel engines 30% more efficient with smaller autos 50% more efficient and US will be at the level of Europeans. By the way, where is the "freedom cars"? On the streets of Europe! After this, US maybe even discover biodiesel.HakanAt 23:10 25/04/2006, you wrote:WE ARE SAVED! WELL EXCEPT FOR THE CARBON THING..http://www.technologyreview.com/BizTech/wtr_16713,296,p1.htmlThat's sarcasm folks...JoeMike Weaver wrote:Redler, you never like my ideas. You've made me cry. Now how do youfeel? *snif*Ok I can't leave well enough alone. A good friend who follows peak oilpretty closely sent me
 this. I think it's optimistic at best and prettydelusional at worst. How long will it take (and cost) to get all thiswhiz bang stuff going? There's no doubt in my mind the petro economyis doomed. Now, if we had any sense we'd wean ourselves NOW, while wecan, use whatever technology may work to do it and move to the nextphase. Even in the best case scenario the price of oil is going tocontinue to climb and climb.They also make the sweeping statement that "the World is not about torun out of oil". The world WILL NEVER run out of oil. There just WON'TBE ENOUGH for everyone to go as we are. I'm sure there will alwasy be atrickle ot two...WeaverMichael Redler wrote:Schizophrenic/Procrastinating/Clueless
 economists:They concede to:The rising costs of oil explorationThe eminent peak and subsequent end to oil as a main source of fuelThe fact that for every three barrels used there is only one barrel ofnewly discovered oil to replenish it.At the same time they seem to feel that new technology and techniquesin exploration and the resulting increase in yield allows you to delaythe peak.They also make the sweeping statement that "the World is not about torun out of oil".What does "about" mean and when will they have the foresight to seethe value of doing something sooner rather than later? Moreimportantly, who is "the World" and when are they going to countcountries (i.e. Iraq)
 who are slowly losing control of their oil.What a bunch of crap!Weaver!! You couldn't leave well enough alone, could you.Mike*/Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6823506___
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Re: [Biofuel] And what does the Economist say about running out of oil?

[Michael Redler]

Oh...dude...I didn't mean it.Really, it's gonna be OK.I'm sorry - really, really sorry.Redler  Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Redler, you never like my ideas. You've made me cry. Now how do you feel? *snif*Ok I can't leave well enough alone. A good friend who follows peak oil pretty closely sent me this. I think it's optimistic at best and pretty delusional at worst. How long will it take (and cost) to get all this whiz bang stuff going? There's no doubt in my mind the petro economy is doomed. Now, if we had any sense we'd wean ourselves NOW, while we can, use whatever technology may work to do it and move to the nextphase. Even in the best case scenario the price of oil is going to
 continue to climb and climb.They also make the sweeping statement that "the World is not about to run out of oil". The world WILL NEVER run out of oil. There just WON'T BE ENOUGH for everyone to go as we are. I'm sure there will alwasy be a trickle ot two...WeaverMichael Redler wrote: Schizophrenic/Procrastinating/Clueless economists:  They concede to:  The rising costs of oil exploration The eminent peak and subsequent end to oil as a main source of fuel The fact that for every three barrels used there is only one barrel of  newly discovered oil to replenish it.  At the same time they seem to feel that new technology and techniques  in exploration and the resulting increase in yield allows you to delay  the peak.   They also make the sweeping statement that "the World is not about to  run out of
 oil".  What does "about" mean and when will they have the foresight to see  the value of doing something sooner rather than later? More  importantly, who is "the World" and when are they going to count  countries (i.e. Iraq) who are slowly losing control of their oil.  What a bunch of crap!  Weaver!! You couldn't leave well enough alone, could you.  Mike */Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: http://www.economist.com/finance/displaystory.cfm?story_id=6823506___
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[Biofuel] TalkBack! guest, David Pimentel

[Michael Redler]

Dear TalkBack!I listened to your program today and was surprised to hear Dr. David Pimentel on your program - surprised because he is so controversial and is known for unfairly attacking the viability of both ethanol and biodiesel.He has attracted so much criticism from other experts studying the viability of Ethanol, that I would have expected additional guests on you program to debate theissue rather than broadcast a point of view which is highly suspect.His researchexcludes a great deal of information with regard to farming, processing techniquesand discoveries about prospective ethanol crops over the past thirty years. He also has a credibility problem among some scientists and many biofuel activists since developing a partnership withTed Patzek, someone known to have close ties to the oil industry.Please consider expanding your program to includethose who do not agree with Dr. Pimentel and his
 co-conspirators.Below, please find materialsupporting my position on the research of Dr. Pimentel.Peace,Mike Redler"The National Corn Growers Association (NCGA), American Coalition for Ethanol, National Ethanol Vehicle Coalition and others all dispute a study conducted by Cornell University’s David Pimentel and University of California, Berkeley, professor Tad Patzek that states ethanol has a net energy balance loss of 29 percent. In fact, ethanol has a substantial net energy gain of at least 67 percent, according to one study.  Pimentel has been routinely discredited by a growing body of government and academic research, including studies by the Departments of Agriculture and Energy, the Colorado School of Mines, Michigan State University, Agri-Food Canada and others."http://fuelingthefuture.blogspot.com/2006/02/discrediting-big-oil-shills.html"Two previous studies by David Pimentel at Cornell University and Tad Patzek at the University of California-Berkeley concluded that it took more energy to grow corn and process it into ethanol than the alcohol was worth.  Four other studies had come to the opposite conclusion."http://www.agobservatory.org/headlines.cfm?refid=78669"The Energy Balance of Corn Ethanol: An Update", by Hosein Shapouri and
 James A. Duffield, U.S. Department of Agriculture, Office of Energy Policy and New Uses, and Michael Wang of the Center for Transportation Research, Energy Systems Division, Argonne National Laboratory. Agricultural Economic Report No. 813: "Corn ethanol is energy efficient... For every BTU dedicated to producing ethanol there is a 34% energy gain... Only about 17% of the energy used to produce ethanol comes from liquid fuels, such as gasoline and diesel fuel. For every 1 BTU of liquid fuel used to produce ethanol, there is a 6.34 BTU gain."http://www.ethanolrfa.org/pr020801b.html  Full report (Acrobat file, 176 kb):http://www.usda.gov/oce/oepnu/aer-814.pdfhttp://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html  "Some earlier studies showed a negative energy balance for corn ethanol. Only Pimentel and Patzek still do so.In 1991 Pimentel stated the net energy balance of corn ethanol was -33,517 btu.In 1989, Ho had put it at -4,000 btu.In 1990, Marland and Turhollow put it at 18,154.In 1992, Keeney and DeLuca put it at -8,438.In 1995 Lorenz and Morris put it at 30,589.In 1995 Shapouri et al. put it at 20,436In 1999 Agri. and Agri-Food, CAN found it was 29,826.In 1999 Wang et al. put it 22,500In 2002, Kim and Dale put it at 23,886 to 35,463 btu.In 2001, 10 years after his first study, Pimentel found it was even less than the first time, -33,562." 
   http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg52756.html  ___
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Re: [Biofuel] FWD: Nazis coming to Danbury [was] BYU professor's group...

[Michael Redler]

Wow Gustl!That was quite a comprehensive response. I see logic and reason in all of it and I agree with nearly all of it.You mentioned Mein Kampf. To my knowledge, I had at least one distant relative executed by the Nazis (he was German and not Jewish) and another who hid a Jewuntil the end of the war (They later married). My strong dislike of Nazism and the ignorance of some who wear the hackenkreuz without fully understanding what it means, is very disturbing. I only read the first 300 pages of the book (my paperback copy) before losing interest and becoming disgusted with the 600+ page rant which (IMO) just recycled the same crap over and over again. Jews, Czechs, Poles, bla, bla bla. He hated everyone!You wrote: "The United States cannot be compared to post WWI Germany in any way."...in any way? I think that the
 Weimar Republic was an earlyredistribution of power for which the powerful (or those with ambitions of being powerful)did not stand. Although the events at the end of the Weimar republicdoes not exactly match our own,the US government actively seeks ways to keep downpublic participation in a true democracy. I concede that the similarities end there.MikeGustl Steiner-Zehender [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  Hallo Michael,Again, as I said to you privately, sorry to take so long to answerthis. Things have been somewhat difficult in many different areashere and I have not been able to attend to this until now. And mymail was meant to point out what I have witnessed in the past and wasnot aimed at you or yours in any
 manner.Sunday, 16 April, 2006, 19:35:57, you wrote:MR Hallo Gustl,MR Well, after participating in peaceful protests for the past threeMR or four years in Connecticut and New York, I have to stronglyMR disagree with you assessment.MR Neither me or anyone of my brothers and sisters demonstrating withMR me would see any gain in becoming violent. Ironically, it's forMR the reasons you mention that violence is not part of the strategy.MR Every intervention I've participated in ended in outnumbering andMR embarrassing our opponents by singing, chanting and leafleting (ifMR permitted) and generally exposing them and the twistedMR interpretation of the issues they represent.You misunderstand me perhaps. This was a general statement of what Ihave witnessed in the past, quite recent past as concerns Toledo, andnot about you and yours at all.MR If
 you want to know who's violent, follow the rhetoric and payMR close attention to those provoking violent conflict. If you wantMR to know who's interested in social change through peacefulMR demonstrations, follow the picket signs, leaflets and leaders ofMR those who believe in the power of public consensus.Yes, pay attention to who is provoking violent conflict, but rhetoricis not what provokes folks to violence. We are free, in this land ofliberty and freedom (sarcasm here), to say anything we want, callanyone anything we want, so long as we don't urge people to doviolence or break the law. People lacking self-discipline,self-restraint and acting irresponsibly may initiate violent acts, butit was not generally the rhetoric which incited the violence. Mostfolks going to these things generally have a certain mindset and whenthe people at the podium start speaking they follow that mindset.Then, when
 all is said and done and the violence has happened they saysomething like, "Well, I was only there to listen but then they said,(place the magic word or phrase here), and I just COULDN'T let themget away with saying that." Why not? Hot air is still just hot air.MR The agitators ARE NOT PEACEFUL demonstrators who oppose war andMR racism. However, if I get attacked by a NAZI (for example), thatMR person can expect an effective self defense.The agitators can only agitate those willing to be agitated brother.I have watched these neo-Nazi gatherings and the Nazi's stand up thereand spout their stuff and stand around like little wooden soldiers andthen are generally attacked by some of those in the listening crowdwhich gives the Nazi's the absolute right to say that they were onlydefending themselves. I have seen half a dozen of these gatheringspersonally and it has ALWAYS been the Nazi's who have been
 attacked inthe first place. All they were doing was exercising their right topeaceful assembly and free speech no matter how odious we may considerthe speech to be. It is not just the people with whom we agree whohave the right to assemble and speak.What kind of weak minded person would allow the speech of another to"cause" them to do violence and then offer up the excuse of beingprovoked by the others words, particularly when they were not forcedto be at that place and listen in the first place? It just doesn'tmake sense.MR The press "reports" the violence of PEACEFUL demonstrations, asMR represented by the "authorities".MR Your wrote (not what you think): "You see what those people areMR like? Just like we told you."MR We've had numerous 

Re: [Biofuel] FWD: Nazis coming to Danbury [was] BYU professor's group...

[Michael Redler]

"The swastika was also used as an early symbol by the Boy Scouts in Britain, and worldwide. According to "Johnny" Walker, [3] the earliest Scouting use was on the first Thanks Badge introduced in 1911. Lord Baden-Powell's 1922 Medal of Merit design added a swastika to the Scout fleur-de-lis as good luck to the person receiving the medal. Like Rudyard Kipling, he would have come across this symbol in India. During 1934, many Scouters
 requested a change of design because of the use of the swastika by the National Socialist German Workers Party. A new British Medal of Merit was issued in 1935."  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ScoutingMike  Mike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:There is an old old ranch house in the extended family with a Swastika on one of the walls - it way predates Hitler and I was told it came from a Native American artist.Gustl Steiner-Zehender wrote:Hallo Mike,Saturday, 22 April, 2006, 11:14:02, you wrote:MR Wow Gustl! MR
 That was quite a comprehensive response. I see logic and reason inMR all of it and I agree with nearly all of it.Thank you. I try. Sometimes it works and sometimes not, but I dotry.MR You mentioned Mein Kampf. To my knowledge, I had at least oneMR distant relative executed by the Nazis (he was German and notMR Jewish) and another who hid a Jew until the end of the war (TheyMR later married). My strong dislike of Nazism and the ignorance ofMR some who wear the hackenkreuz without fully understanding what itMR means, is very disturbing. I only read the first 300 pages of theMR book (my paperback copy) before losing interest and becomingMR disgusted with the 600+ page rant which (IMO) just recycled theMR same crap over and over again. Jews, Czechs, Poles, bla, bla bla.MR He hated everyone!This is
 something we could spend a long time on but it isn't worth thetrouble. I personally have a strong dislike of all governments whileunderstanding the need for them given our evolution as a society(worldwide, not just the US). Hitler certainly had a lot more to sayabout the Slavs than he did of the Jews and held a lot more hate forthe Slavs. If the notion ever strikes you read a lot of MirceaEliade, Joseph Cambell, Carl Jung and some Heinrich Zimmer just fordrill and then keeping what you have learned in mind find and read"The Young Hitler I Knew" by August Kubizek and then re-read MeinKampf and see what you come up with. I think you will be surprisedhow differently you look at things, but perhaps not. It won't justifyHitler and what he did but it will give you an understanding of howhis mind worked and why he did what he did if you can remaindispassionate which is not easy
 to do.And a note about the swastika. It has been a positive religioussymbol for millenia and it is a shame that we in the west have let themisuse of this symbol taint our way of thinking about it. It is stillin wide use in the east as a respected religious symbol and it pops upin places one would not think it would be if their only experiencewith it is during the Hitlerzeit. There is a swastika border aroundthe walls of the supreme court and there are swastikas in ancienttemples in Israel. The swastika is the innocent victim of willfulmisuse and should not suffer because of that. It was also the firstChristian symbol called the crux gammada and it symbolized thetrinity.MR You wrote: "The United States cannot be compared to post WWIMR Germany in any way." MR ...in any way? I think that the Weimar Republic was an
 earlyMR redistribution of power for which the powerful (or those withMR ambitions of being powerful) did not stand. Although the events atMR the end of the Weimar republic does not exactly match our own, theMR US government actively seeks ways to keep down publicMR participation in a true democracy. I concede that the similaritiesMR end there. I believe I will stick by my statement for the most part. Allgovernments do what you suggest. I have no argument there. But I wouldcompare the Weimar Republic more to the situation of and government ofIraq. It was/is an imposed system from a foreign conqueror in bothcases. Germany had the Kaiser and Iraq Sadaam and both had just lost awar. Just as in post war Germany there are warring factions which likeneither the government nor each other and there is civil strife andunrest and war. We will
 have to hide and watch to see if Iraq ends uplike Weimar.Good talking with you brother. Again, I apologize for the necessityof my late reply. Happy Happy,Gustl<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] Bush and the current state of the US

[Michael Redler]

How about "Support our troops" on the drivers side and "Bring them home now" on the passenger's side....confusing to some/crystal clear to others.MikeMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I prefer ambigous bumber stickers myself: "Power of Pride" for one...what does than mean?It's like a car with "original" miles. What's the difference between a car with 60k miles and car with 60k "original" miles?Zeke Yewdall wrote:Didn't you hear? Saving resources for the war effort is out of date. It's been replaced by simpler and cleaner actions such as simplyputting a yellow ribbon on your giant SUV now.I wasn't around in the 40's, but it does seem like people took waralot more seriously then,
 and actually knew what it meant to be anation at war, unlike today.On 4/21/06, Anthony Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: I grew up in the 40s when people saved cans and papers and grease for thewar effort, gasoline was rationed, and the tires you had in 1941 had to lastyou until the war was over... Those who died in Europe and the Pacificwould be rolling in their graves if they could see the greedy, "I'mentitled" society we are today and the rotten spoiled child we have in thepresidency... The country is bankrupt - financially and morally. A decentgovernment would call for a 55 mps speed limit, 50 MPG (at least) vehicles,more public transportation, and a revitalization of the OPA where oil pricesare concerned. The spot market should be shut down...Tony Austin  [snip]___
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Re: [Biofuel] You were saying?

[Michael Redler]

It's from playing the Bob and Doug Mckenzie Christmas album over and over and:-)MikeMike Weaver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  I always wondered why you sound so funny when you talk...Michael Redler wrote: Don't worry Fred.  Todd certainly has a talent for stringing words together and having it  mean something. But, as long as you get your point across, it's all good.  BTW, I've always felt that in order to use the full range of a  language, one needs to look beyond their dictionary and incorporate a  little grit (broken beer bottle) every now and then.  :-)  Mike */Fred Finch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>/* wrote: Todd breaks out the
 verbal glaive while I grab the nearest thought of a broken beer bottle. Sometimes I swear I still feel like a mental midget here! Damn fine writing! fred[snip]___
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