[Zen] Nice Quote
Deluded, a Buddha is a sentient being; Awakened, a sentient being is a Buddha. Ignorant, a Buddha is a sentient being; With wisdom, a sentient being is a Buddha. If the mind is warped, a Buddha is a sentient being; If the mind is impartial, a sentient being is a Buddha. When once a warped mind is produced, Buddha is concealed within the sentient being. If for one instant of thought we become impartial, Then sentient beings are themselves Buddha. In our mind itself a Buddha exists, Our own Buddha is the true Buddha. If we do not have in ourselves the Buddha mind, Then where are we to seek the Buddha? - The Sutra of Hui Neng Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
is 'forms'. Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists independently of us and we perceive it with our intellect. I believe we create the structures and superimpose it upon our experiences to create our perceptions. The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims they are part of reality. We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are semantic, but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental. Other than that all is well...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally! :-) Siska -Original Message- From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Bill, I agree the effectiveness of a Bodhisattva is also important. And I certainly wish I were more effective in the way I present the truth of Zen. However when minds are closed to the truth there are limits to what a Bodhisattva can teach. So from that perspective it's always better just to cut through to the bare truth whether it falls on an open mind or not. The problem with coddling emotionally needy feelings and delusions is that it tends to reinforce them. On the other hand just telling the bare truth like I do tends to elicit all sorts of defensive ego mechanisms. So what's a Bodhisattva to do? In my case just give up and go back to writing my book I guess. :-) Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 9:18 PM, Joe wrote: Bill!, Chris, A bodhisattva might still take on the conventionalization of a your, or a my, just so as not to weird you out, and to be of help or service. This too is called Compassion. It's not impossible to do this, even in the awakened state. Mind you, it may not be easy, but it's not impossible. Not once you see, after a while, what's at stake, and feel one's true responsibility to be not only honest, but effective. This is the depth and sincerity of the life and career of a bodhisattva. You've got to walk all sides of the street, not just two sides, ...or One! Especially NOT one! Dualism bites. But not if you're un-bitten. Then you can use it for the sake of all beings. And you had better: it's one of the best tools in our medical bag. But don't try this at Home, unless you've been to the trenches, please. Go to the trenches, NOW. --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Chris, I know this was a reply to Edgar's post below, but I wasn't sure if it was in support or qualifying his post. I agree with you that the 'your' part of 'your mind' is the critical qualifier that signals illusion. This is because it signals dualism. So yes, I do claim forms arise in the duality created by 'your mind'. If 'your mind' does not exist then duality does not exist; then there is only the One Mind, the Original Mind - Buddha Nature.
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Wrong... Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 9:33 PM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, You don't 'solve' koans, if by 'solving' you mean 'put them into a nice, clean, rational perspective'. Like Merle said several posts ago, 'Zen is not about grasping'. You don't 'grasp' or 'solve' or 'understand' koans or Buddha Nature or zen. You experience them. You live them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, That's the Zen for Dummies approach. The superior approach is to actually SOLVE the koan. When you truly understand it realization appears! Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 11:08 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Giving up is good. That's what many zen teaching techniques are designed to do, and in particular koans. They are intended to drive you to the point where you give up on your attempts to find an intellectual (rational) answer or response to the koan. It's then when the intellect quiesces that you may experience Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: No, you still don't get the obvious. I give up! Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 8:47 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Forms are dualistic. They only arise when your intellect creates dualism. That is the only place where they can 'exist', but they 'exist' there as illusions - like a dream. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, NO! You claim that the forms arise in YOUR mind. But YOUR mind IS A FORM. Is one of the forms that arises. I've told you a hundred times that forms CANNOT arise in what does not exist! Forms arise - and only then are they categorized into the duality of mind and not mind. So you cannot say that forms arise in your mind because your mind does not yet exist when the forms arise. Therefore forms arise as experience - but NOT the experience of any mind. Therefor what exists and manifests cannot be said to either arise in mind OR external world, since these are both forms that arise. So the true and proper view is that pure experience is the fundamental reality, but this is just pure experience prior to the dualism of experiencer and experienced. Therefore your claim that forms arise in YOUR mind is dead wrong... At the most fundamental level forms just arise. What do they arise within? They arise within Buddha Nature for that is all that is possible for anything to arise within. Therefore the forms, as manifestations of Buddha Nature, are reality, because reality is the totality of all that exists. Hopefully this will get through to you someday. It's so clear and obvious. There are a couple of additional subtleties beyond this but I won't confuse you with them right now. Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 5:28 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, No, unfortunately not. Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to agree with what I've stated but then slips in one word that corrupts what I have stated. In this case the word is 'forms'. Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists independently of us and we perceive it with our intellect. I believe we create the structures and superimpose it upon our experiences to create our perceptions. The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims they are part of reality. We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are semantic, but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental. Other than that all is well...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally! :-) Siska -Original Message- From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Edgar, quoting: However when minds are closed to the truth Talk about a dueling-dualist, out for a duel! (note: this is not Zen, but not everything has to be). Try coddling. It's a good Yoga. The world will turn around, and you will see it aright. Just a suggestion of a Method. In Vipassana, it is called the Practice of Metta. In Zen practice, there is no explicit Metta practice that is traditional; instead the whole program of Zen work is devoted to the aim of opening and freeing the heart of (true) Compassion. There is no other purpose of (traditional; authentic; orthodox; Tathagatha- ; or Patriarchal-Zen) practice. Shakyamuni started this ball rolling or wheel turning when he got up from his seat after seeing Venus that morning, and this same heart has been transmitted down 87 generations. I am the 87th generation (you may be older, say the 86th gen.). One American Zen master in S. Suzuki's line (S. Francisco) is working on including Metta practice in Zen training explicitly, intentionally. We'll see how it goes. He's written and published some things about it: he is Norm Zoketsu Fischer, Roshi; in the Bay Area (USA). Granted, it's not traditional, but innovations may yet be possible that have escaped inclusion during the past 1500 years. As we know, everything depends on and lives according to causes and conditions. It's not for us to present the truth of Zen: it is for us -- real Bodhisattvas -- to function in accord with Wisdom and Compassion. If that is the truth, then so be it. The best and only true presentation is Compassion. Just as it arises. You may quote me in your book. Email me and I'll send correct spelling of my full name. Thanks, and best, --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, I agree the effectiveness of a Bodhisattva is also important. And I certainly wish I were more effective in the way I present the truth of Zen. However when minds are closed to the truth there are limits to what a Bodhisattva can teach. So from that perspective it's always better just to cut through to the bare truth whether it falls on an open mind or not. The problem with coddling emotionally needy feelings and delusions is that it tends to reinforce them. On the other hand just telling the bare truth like I do tends to elicit all sorts of defensive ego mechanisms. So what's a Bodhisattva to do? In my case just give up and go back to writing my book I guess. :-) Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
: Edgar, As long as you agree dualism is an illusion you can call it 'reality' if you wish. I don't agree, but we can let others decide for themselves if illusions are real or not. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Hi Bill, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. Yes, it amazes me sometimes that you two are, in fact, co-moderators of this forum :-P Your interpretation below was how I understood the poem too. But because I thought it was supposed to be all about Buddha Nature, the part after waves broke didn't make sense to me. It's not Buddha Nature... I guess I had pre-conceived ideas about Rumi's poems ;-) Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:41:22 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self,But my self was gone.The boundaries of my beingHad disappeared in the sea.Waves broke. Awareness rose again.And a voice returned me to myself.It always happens like this.Sea turns on itself and foams,And with every foaming bit another body.Another being takes form.And when the sea sends word,Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath.- Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self,But my self was gone.The boundaries of my beingHad disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again.And a voice returned me to myself.It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams,And with every foaming bit another body.Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word,Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@... Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill!
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Bill, Anything that is still (or look still), like a clear blue sky or a mountain usually does the job for me. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 08:22:55 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Siska, Yes - waves, cloud formations, staring into a fire - anything chaotic, that is not rational. It allows your mind to disengage from trying to 'make sense' out of the changing forms and can enable you to slip into the experience of Buddha Nature. This is the very same technique as koans. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  yes i have often watch the waves... great poem.,...cloud formations are another wonder...merle  Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything.  In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke.  Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem.  My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature.  The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it.  It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke.  Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns.  His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned.  This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all otherillusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway.  It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill!
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Siska, Rumi is just describing what happens to all of us - phasing in and out of awareness of Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote: Hi Bill, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. Yes, it amazes me sometimes that you two are, in fact, co-moderators of this forum :-P Your interpretation below was how I understood the poem too. But because I thought it was supposed to be all about Buddha Nature, the part after waves broke didn't make sense to me. It's not Buddha Nature... I guess I had pre-conceived ideas about Rumi's poems ;-) Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@... Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:41:22 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self,But my self was gone.The boundaries of my beingHad disappeared in the sea.Waves broke. Awareness rose again.And a voice returned me to myself.It always happens like this.Sea turns on itself and foams,And with every foaming bit another body.Another being takes form.And when the sea sends word,Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath.- Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self,But my self was gone.The boundaries of my beingHad disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again.And a voice returned me to myself.It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams,And with every foaming bit another body.Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word,Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally! :-) Siska -Original Message- From: Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@... Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill!
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Hi Bill, Yes, it was my perception that he always talk about Buddha Nature and that only My error, Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 08:35:41 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Siska, Rumi is just describing what happens to all of us - phasing in and out of awareness of Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote: Hi Bill, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. Yes, it amazes me sometimes that you two are, in fact, co-moderators of this forum :-P Your interpretation below was how I understood the poem too. But because I thought it was supposed to be all about Buddha Nature, the part after waves broke didn't make sense to me. It's not Buddha Nature... I guess I had pre-conceived ideas about Rumi's poems ;-) Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@... Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:41:22 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self,But my self was gone.The boundaries of my beingHad disappeared in the sea.Waves broke. Awareness rose again.And a voice returned me to myself.It always happens like this.Sea turns on itself and foams,And with every foaming bit another body.Another being takes form.And when the sea sends word,Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath.- Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self,But my self was gone.The boundaries of my beingHad disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again.And a voice returned me to myself.It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams,And with every foaming bit another body.Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word,Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill!
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Siska, No, unfortunately not. Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to agree with what I've stated but then slips in one word that corrupts what I have stated. In this case the word is 'forms'. Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists independently of us and we perceive it with our intellect. I believe we create the structures and superimpose it upon our experiences to create our perceptions. The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims they are part of reality. We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are semantic, but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental. Other than that all is well...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote: Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally! :-) Siska -Original Message- From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@... Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Hi Bill, The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims they are part of reality. If I understand correctly, you said, all thoughts are illusory because 'thoughts' to you is how we perceive the reality. And all is illusory because we are still trapped in duality. Also, if I understand correctly, Edgar said, whatever is in our head, that is what it is. Whether or not they are illusory, they are what they are, the reality. I think the two of you are not talking about exactly the same thing Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 09:28:32 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Siska, No, unfortunately not. Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to agree with what I've stated but then slips in one word that corrupts what I have stated. In this case the word is 'forms'. Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists independently of us and we perceive it with our intellect. I believe we create the structures and superimpose it upon our experiences to create our perceptions. The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims they are part of reality. We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are semantic, but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental. Other than that all is well...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote: Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally! :-) Siska -Original Message- From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@... Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill!
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, People don't decide whether illusions are real or not. Reality does! Get that through your solipsistic head! Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 9:11 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, As long as you agree dualism is an illusion you can call it 'reality' if you wish. I don't agree, but we can let others decide for themselves if illusions are real or not. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
whether illusions are real or not. Reality does! Get that through your solipsistic head! Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 9:11 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, As long as you agree dualism is an illusion you can call it 'reality' if you wish. I don't agree, but we can let others decide for themselves if illusions are real or not. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Bill, NO! You claim that the forms arise in YOUR mind. But YOUR mind IS A FORM. Is one of the forms that arises. I've told you a hundred times that forms CANNOT arise in what does not exist! Forms arise - and only then are they categorized into the duality of mind and not mind. So you cannot say that forms arise in your mind because your mind does not yet exist when the forms arise. Therefore forms arise as experience - but NOT the experience of any mind. Therefor what exists and manifests cannot be said to either arise in mind OR external world, since these are both forms that arise. So the true and proper view is that pure experience is the fundamental reality, but this is just pure experience prior to the dualism of experiencer and experienced. Therefore your claim that forms arise in YOUR mind is dead wrong... At the most fundamental level forms just arise. What do they arise within? They arise within Buddha Nature for that is all that is possible for anything to arise within. Therefore the forms, as manifestations of Buddha Nature, are reality, because reality is the totality of all that exists. Hopefully this will get through to you someday. It's so clear and obvious. There are a couple of additional subtleties beyond this but I won't confuse you with them right now. Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 5:28 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, No, unfortunately not. Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to agree with what I've stated but then slips in one word that corrupts what I have stated. In this case the word is 'forms'. Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists independently of us and we perceive it with our intellect. I believe we create the structures and superimpose it upon our experiences to create our perceptions. The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims they are part of reality. We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are semantic, but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental. Other than that all is well...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote: Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally! :-) Siska -Original Message- From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@... Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Siska, See my reply to Bill where I explain.. Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 6:12 AM, siska_...@yahoo.com wrote: Hi Bill, The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims they are part of reality. If I understand correctly, you said, all thoughts are illusory because 'thoughts' to you is how we perceive the reality. And all is illusory because we are still trapped in duality. Also, if I understand correctly, Edgar said, whatever is in our head, that is what it is. Whether or not they are illusory, they are what they are, the reality. I think the two of you are not talking about exactly the same thing Siska From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 09:28:32 - To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Siska, No, unfortunately not. Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to agree with what I've stated but then slips in one word that corrupts what I have stated. In this case the word is 'forms'. Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists independently of us and we perceive it with our intellect. I believe we create the structures and superimpose it upon our experiences to create our perceptions. The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims they are part of reality. We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are semantic, but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental. Other than that all is well...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote: Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally! :-) Siska -Original Message- From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@... Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
-270-6524 On May 25, 2013 7:10 AM, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Edgar, People create illusions so why can't people decide on whether they're real or not? I say they're not. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, People don't decide whether illusions are real or not. Reality does! Get that through your solipsistic head! Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 9:11 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, As long as you agree dualism is an illusion you can call it 'reality' if you wish. I don't agree, but we can let others decide for themselves if illusions are real or not. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Edgar, Forms are dualistic. They only arise when your intellect creates dualism. That is the only place where they can 'exist', but they 'exist' there as illusions - like a dream. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, NO! You claim that the forms arise in YOUR mind. But YOUR mind IS A FORM. Is one of the forms that arises. I've told you a hundred times that forms CANNOT arise in what does not exist! Forms arise - and only then are they categorized into the duality of mind and not mind. So you cannot say that forms arise in your mind because your mind does not yet exist when the forms arise. Therefore forms arise as experience - but NOT the experience of any mind. Therefor what exists and manifests cannot be said to either arise in mind OR external world, since these are both forms that arise. So the true and proper view is that pure experience is the fundamental reality, but this is just pure experience prior to the dualism of experiencer and experienced. Therefore your claim that forms arise in YOUR mind is dead wrong... At the most fundamental level forms just arise. What do they arise within? They arise within Buddha Nature for that is all that is possible for anything to arise within. Therefore the forms, as manifestations of Buddha Nature, are reality, because reality is the totality of all that exists. Hopefully this will get through to you someday. It's so clear and obvious. There are a couple of additional subtleties beyond this but I won't confuse you with them right now. Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 5:28 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, No, unfortunately not. Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to agree with what I've stated but then slips in one word that corrupts what I have stated. In this case the word is 'forms'. Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists independently of us and we perceive it with our intellect. I believe we create the structures and superimpose it upon our experiences to create our perceptions. The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims they are part of reality. We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are semantic, but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental. Other than that all is well...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally! :-) Siska -Original Message- From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
No, you still don't get the obvious. I give up! Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 8:47 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Forms are dualistic. They only arise when your intellect creates dualism. That is the only place where they can 'exist', but they 'exist' there as illusions - like a dream. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, NO! You claim that the forms arise in YOUR mind. But YOUR mind IS A FORM. Is one of the forms that arises. I've told you a hundred times that forms CANNOT arise in what does not exist! Forms arise - and only then are they categorized into the duality of mind and not mind. So you cannot say that forms arise in your mind because your mind does not yet exist when the forms arise. Therefore forms arise as experience - but NOT the experience of any mind. Therefor what exists and manifests cannot be said to either arise in mind OR external world, since these are both forms that arise. So the true and proper view is that pure experience is the fundamental reality, but this is just pure experience prior to the dualism of experiencer and experienced. Therefore your claim that forms arise in YOUR mind is dead wrong... At the most fundamental level forms just arise. What do they arise within? They arise within Buddha Nature for that is all that is possible for anything to arise within. Therefore the forms, as manifestations of Buddha Nature, are reality, because reality is the totality of all that exists. Hopefully this will get through to you someday. It's so clear and obvious. There are a couple of additional subtleties beyond this but I won't confuse you with them right now. Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 5:28 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, No, unfortunately not. Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to agree with what I've stated but then slips in one word that corrupts what I have stated. In this case the word is 'forms'. Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists independently of us and we perceive it with our intellect. I believe we create the structures and superimpose it upon our experiences to create our perceptions. The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims they are part of reality. We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are semantic, but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental. Other than that all is well...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally! :-) Siska -Original Message- From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Edgar, Giving up is good. That's what many zen teaching techniques are designed to do, and in particular koans. They are intended to drive you to the point where you give up on your attempts to find an intellectual (rational) answer or response to the koan. It's then when the intellect quiesces that you may experience Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: No, you still don't get the obvious. I give up! Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 8:47 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Forms are dualistic. They only arise when your intellect creates dualism. That is the only place where they can 'exist', but they 'exist' there as illusions - like a dream. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, NO! You claim that the forms arise in YOUR mind. But YOUR mind IS A FORM. Is one of the forms that arises. I've told you a hundred times that forms CANNOT arise in what does not exist! Forms arise - and only then are they categorized into the duality of mind and not mind. So you cannot say that forms arise in your mind because your mind does not yet exist when the forms arise. Therefore forms arise as experience - but NOT the experience of any mind. Therefor what exists and manifests cannot be said to either arise in mind OR external world, since these are both forms that arise. So the true and proper view is that pure experience is the fundamental reality, but this is just pure experience prior to the dualism of experiencer and experienced. Therefore your claim that forms arise in YOUR mind is dead wrong... At the most fundamental level forms just arise. What do they arise within? They arise within Buddha Nature for that is all that is possible for anything to arise within. Therefore the forms, as manifestations of Buddha Nature, are reality, because reality is the totality of all that exists. Hopefully this will get through to you someday. It's so clear and obvious. There are a couple of additional subtleties beyond this but I won't confuse you with them right now. Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 5:28 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, No, unfortunately not. Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to agree with what I've stated but then slips in one word that corrupts what I have stated. In this case the word is 'forms'. Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists independently of us and we perceive it with our intellect. I believe we create the structures and superimpose it upon our experiences to create our perceptions. The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims they are part of reality. We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are semantic, but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental. Other than that all is well...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally! :-) Siska -Original Message- From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Your mind. I think the illusory word there is your, moreso than mind. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On May 26, 2013 5:10 AM, Edgar Owen edgaro...@att.net wrote: Bill, NO! You claim that the forms arise in YOUR mind. But YOUR mind IS A FORM. Is one of the forms that arises. I've told you a hundred times that forms CANNOT arise in what does not exist! Forms arise - and only then are they categorized into the duality of mind and not mind. So you cannot say that forms arise in your mind because your mind does not yet exist when the forms arise. Therefore forms arise as experience - but NOT the experience of any mind. Therefor what exists and manifests cannot be said to either arise in mind OR external world, since these are both forms that arise. So the true and proper view is that pure experience is the fundamental reality, but this is just pure experience prior to the dualism of experiencer and experienced. divTherefore your claim that forms arise in YOUR mind is dead wrong... At the most fundamental level forms just arise. What do they arise within? They arise within Buddha Nature for that is all that is possible for anything to arise within. Therefore the forms, as manifestations of Buddha Nature, are reality, because reality is the totality of all that exists. Hopefully this will get through to you someday. It's so clear and obvious. There are a couple of additional subtleties beyond this but I won't confuse you with them right now. Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 5:28 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, No, unfortunately not. Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to agree with what I've stated but then slips in one word that corrupts what I have stated. In this case the word is 'forms'. Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists independently of us and we perceive it with our intellect. I believe we create the structures and superimpose it upon our experiences to create our perceptions. The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims they are part of reality. We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are semantic, but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental. Other than that all is well...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote: Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally! :-) Siska -Original Message- From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@... Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Bill, That's the Zen for Dummies approach. The superior approach is to actually SOLVE the koan. When you truly understand it realization appears! Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 11:08 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Giving up is good. That's what many zen teaching techniques are designed to do, and in particular koans. They are intended to drive you to the point where you give up on your attempts to find an intellectual (rational) answer or response to the koan. It's then when the intellect quiesces that you may experience Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: No, you still don't get the obvious. I give up! Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 8:47 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Forms are dualistic. They only arise when your intellect creates dualism. That is the only place where they can 'exist', but they 'exist' there as illusions - like a dream. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, NO! You claim that the forms arise in YOUR mind. But YOUR mind IS A FORM. Is one of the forms that arises. I've told you a hundred times that forms CANNOT arise in what does not exist! Forms arise - and only then are they categorized into the duality of mind and not mind. So you cannot say that forms arise in your mind because your mind does not yet exist when the forms arise. Therefore forms arise as experience - but NOT the experience of any mind. Therefor what exists and manifests cannot be said to either arise in mind OR external world, since these are both forms that arise. So the true and proper view is that pure experience is the fundamental reality, but this is just pure experience prior to the dualism of experiencer and experienced. Therefore your claim that forms arise in YOUR mind is dead wrong... At the most fundamental level forms just arise. What do they arise within? They arise within Buddha Nature for that is all that is possible for anything to arise within. Therefore the forms, as manifestations of Buddha Nature, are reality, because reality is the totality of all that exists. Hopefully this will get through to you someday. It's so clear and obvious. There are a couple of additional subtleties beyond this but I won't confuse you with them right now. Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 5:28 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, No, unfortunately not. Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to agree with what I've stated but then slips in one word that corrupts what I have stated. In this case the word is 'forms'. Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists independently of us and we perceive it with our intellect. I believe we create the structures and superimpose it upon our experiences to create our perceptions. The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims they are part of reality. We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are semantic, but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental. Other than that all is well...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally! :-) Siska -Original Message- From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Bill!, Too facile. In this case I agree with Edgar (Ta-da!). I think he's right that he is not a person! ;-] --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Edgar, People create illusions so why can't people decide on whether they're real or not? I say they're not. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Chris, One can certainly, with the right motivation, get the pants OFF in a hurry, sometimes, AND the under-things, with NO thought at all. Sometimes with too little thought; alas. --Joe / singing the jilted-lover Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I also am pretty sure one may put pants on without having an effective reasonable model of computation externalized. One may just put the pants on. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Group; Edgar, Merle, Bill!, Even if Edgar is relatively wrong, Merle is ABSOLUTELY right, here. Again: Merle wields the Wisdom-Sword of Manjushri! Edgar takes a good haircut. All Hail! --Joe / the Ref Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: no it's nature and how she works!... merle Bill, It's an intelligently computed reaction... Edgar Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Edgar, I think what you really mean is that Nature is not a Western female (as you wrote a few hundred posts back). What a slap in the face! I mean, I hope it results in that. ;-) Cruisin' for a bruisin'! (You obviously do not know any Arizona women. It's not west coast, but, instead, authentically Western, here). I think you'd survive about 18 minutes here, enough to fill Nixon's gap. Pardner. ;-) --Joe Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Merle, Nature works intelligently. And nature is NOT a she. Nature is much too intelligent to be a SHE! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Bill!, A beautiful gem (of a statement of understanding, and the progress of Practice). Put it in a Tiffany mount, and show it around! Oh, it already is. Here 'tis again. w/ tnx, --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Edgar, Giving up is good. That's what many zen teaching techniques are designed to do, and in particular koans. They are intended to drive you to the point where you give up on your attempts to find an intellectual (rational) answer or response to the koan. It's then when the intellect quiesces that you may experience Buddha Nature. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Chris, I know this was a reply to Edgar's post below, but I wasn't sure if it was in support or qualifying his post. I agree with you that the 'your' part of 'your mind' is the critical qualifier that signals illusion. This is because it signals dualism. So yes, I do claim forms arise in the duality created by 'your mind'. If 'your mind' does not exist then duality does not exist; then there is only the One Mind, the Original Mind - Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Your mind. I think the illusory word there is your, moreso than mind. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On May 26, 2013 5:10 AM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, NO! You claim that the forms arise in YOUR mind. But YOUR mind IS A FORM. Is one of the forms that arises. I've told you a hundred times that forms CANNOT arise in what does not exist! Forms arise - and only then are they categorized into the duality of mind and not mind. So you cannot say that forms arise in your mind because your mind does not yet exist when the forms arise. Therefore forms arise as experience - but NOT the experience of any mind. Therefor what exists and manifests cannot be said to either arise in mind OR external world, since these are both forms that arise. So the true and proper view is that pure experience is the fundamental reality, but this is just pure experience prior to the dualism of experiencer and experienced. divTherefore your claim that forms arise in YOUR mind is dead wrong... At the most fundamental level forms just arise. What do they arise within? They arise within Buddha Nature for that is all that is possible for anything to arise within. Therefore the forms, as manifestations of Buddha Nature, are reality, because reality is the totality of all that exists. Hopefully this will get through to you someday. It's so clear and obvious. There are a couple of additional subtleties beyond this but I won't confuse you with them right now. Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 5:28 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, No, unfortunately not. Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to agree with what I've stated but then slips in one word that corrupts what I have stated. In this case the word is 'forms'. Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists independently of us and we perceive it with our intellect. I believe we create the structures and superimpose it upon our experiences to create our perceptions. The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims they are part of reality. We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are semantic, but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental. Other than that all is well...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally! :-) Siska -Original Message- From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Bill!, Chris, A bodhisattva might still take on the conventionalization of a your, or a my, just so as not to weird you out, and to be of help or service. This too is called Compassion. It's not impossible to do this, even in the awakened state. Mind you, it may not be easy, but it's not impossible. Not once you see, after a while, what's at stake, and feel one's true responsibility to be not only honest, but effective. This is the depth and sincerity of the life and career of a bodhisattva. You've got to walk all sides of the street, not just two sides, ...or One! Especially NOT one! Dualism bites. But not if you're un-bitten. Then you can use it for the sake of all beings. And you had better: it's one of the best tools in our medical bag. But don't try this at Home, unless you've been to the trenches, please. Go to the trenches, NOW. --Joe Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Chris, I know this was a reply to Edgar's post below, but I wasn't sure if it was in support or qualifying his post. I agree with you that the 'your' part of 'your mind' is the critical qualifier that signals illusion. This is because it signals dualism. So yes, I do claim forms arise in the duality created by 'your mind'. If 'your mind' does not exist then duality does not exist; then there is only the One Mind, the Original Mind - Buddha Nature. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Edgar, You don't 'solve' koans, if by 'solving' you mean 'put them into a nice, clean, rational perspective'. Like Merle said several posts ago, 'Zen is not about grasping'. You don't 'grasp' or 'solve' or 'understand' koans or Buddha Nature or zen. You experience them. You live them. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, That's the Zen for Dummies approach. The superior approach is to actually SOLVE the koan. When you truly understand it realization appears! Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 11:08 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Giving up is good. That's what many zen teaching techniques are designed to do, and in particular koans. They are intended to drive you to the point where you give up on your attempts to find an intellectual (rational) answer or response to the koan. It's then when the intellect quiesces that you may experience Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: No, you still don't get the obvious. I give up! Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 8:47 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, Forms are dualistic. They only arise when your intellect creates dualism. That is the only place where they can 'exist', but they 'exist' there as illusions - like a dream. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, NO! You claim that the forms arise in YOUR mind. But YOUR mind IS A FORM. Is one of the forms that arises. I've told you a hundred times that forms CANNOT arise in what does not exist! Forms arise - and only then are they categorized into the duality of mind and not mind. So you cannot say that forms arise in your mind because your mind does not yet exist when the forms arise. Therefore forms arise as experience - but NOT the experience of any mind. Therefor what exists and manifests cannot be said to either arise in mind OR external world, since these are both forms that arise. So the true and proper view is that pure experience is the fundamental reality, but this is just pure experience prior to the dualism of experiencer and experienced. Therefore your claim that forms arise in YOUR mind is dead wrong... At the most fundamental level forms just arise. What do they arise within? They arise within Buddha Nature for that is all that is possible for anything to arise within. Therefore the forms, as manifestations of Buddha Nature, are reality, because reality is the totality of all that exists. Hopefully this will get through to you someday. It's so clear and obvious. There are a couple of additional subtleties beyond this but I won't confuse you with them right now. Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 5:28 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, No, unfortunately not. Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to agree with what I've stated but then slips in one word that corrupts what I have stated. In this case the word is 'forms'. Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists independently of us and we perceive it with our intellect. I believe we create the structures and superimpose it upon our experiences to create our perceptions. The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims they are part of reality. We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are semantic, but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental. Other than that all is well...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally! :-) Siska -Original Message- From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
I find it amusing when email purporting to be from the view point of the absolute includes such watch phrases as Me or Mine or You or Yours. Mind is just mind, water is just water. But whose water? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On May 26, 2013 5:58 PM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Chris, I know this was a reply to Edgar's post below, but I wasn't sure if it was in support or qualifying his post. I agree with you that the 'your' part of 'your mind' is the critical qualifier that signals illusion. This is because it signals dualism. So yes, I do claim forms arise in the duality created by 'your mind'. If 'your mind' does not exist then duality does not exist; then there is only the One Mind, the Original Mind - Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Your mind. I think the illusory word there is your, moreso than mind. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On May 26, 2013 5:10 AM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, NO! You claim that the forms arise in YOUR mind. But YOUR mind IS A FORM. Is one of the forms that arises. I've told you a hundred times that forms CANNOT arise in what does not exist! Forms arise - and only then are they categorized into the duality of mind and not mind. So you cannot say that forms arise in your mind because your mind does not yet exist when the forms arise. Therefore forms arise as experience - but NOT the experience of any mind. Therefor what exists and manifests cannot be said to either arise in mind OR external world, since these are both forms that arise. So the true and proper view is that pure experience is the fundamental reality, but this is just pure experience prior to the dualism of experiencer and experienced. divTherefore your claim that forms arise in YOUR mind is dead wrong... At the most fundamental level forms just arise. What do they arise within? They arise within Buddha Nature for that is all that is possible for anything to arise within. Therefore the forms, as manifestations of Buddha Nature, are reality, because reality is the totality of all that exists. Hopefully this will get through to you someday. It's so clear and obvious. There are a couple of additional subtleties beyond this but I won't confuse you with them right now. Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 5:28 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, No, unfortunately not. Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to agree with what I've stated but then slips in one word that corrupts what I have stated. In this case the word is 'forms'. Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists independently of us and we perceive it with our intellect. I believe we create the structures and superimpose it upon our experiences to create our perceptions. The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims they are part of reality. We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are semantic, but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental. Other than that all is well...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally! :-) Siska -Original Message- From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Chris, You're starting to sound a little like Edgar now. In your case assuming I've trying to do something I'm not trying to do - at least in the referenced post. Don't ever think that any post of mine is ...purporting to be from the view point of the absolute Virtually none are. Most are from a dualistic, relative POV. Some of my posts do attempt to describe holistic experience (Buddha Nature) but always from a dualistic POV. That's the whole challenge of the Zen Forum, and virtually all other communication modes as well but especially those based solely on language. If I were to attempt to post something directly communicating holistic experience it would have to be in a poem, and even then would I'm sure fall way short. The only way I know to directly communicate Buddha Nature is with a face-to-face encounter because the communication has to take the form of an experience, not an explanation. Just a clarification and FYI...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I find it amusing when email purporting to be from the view point of the absolute includes such watch phrases as Me or Mine or You or Yours. Mind is just mind, water is just water. But whose water? Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On May 26, 2013 5:58 PM, Bill! BillSmart@... wrote: Chris, I know this was a reply to Edgar's post below, but I wasn't sure if it was in support or qualifying his post. I agree with you that the 'your' part of 'your mind' is the critical qualifier that signals illusion. This is because it signals dualism. So yes, I do claim forms arise in the duality created by 'your mind'. If 'your mind' does not exist then duality does not exist; then there is only the One Mind, the Original Mind - Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Chris Austin-Lane chris@ wrote: Your mind. I think the illusory word there is your, moreso than mind. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On May 26, 2013 5:10 AM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, NO! You claim that the forms arise in YOUR mind. But YOUR mind IS A FORM. Is one of the forms that arises. I've told you a hundred times that forms CANNOT arise in what does not exist! Forms arise - and only then are they categorized into the duality of mind and not mind. So you cannot say that forms arise in your mind because your mind does not yet exist when the forms arise. Therefore forms arise as experience - but NOT the experience of any mind. Therefor what exists and manifests cannot be said to either arise in mind OR external world, since these are both forms that arise. So the true and proper view is that pure experience is the fundamental reality, but this is just pure experience prior to the dualism of experiencer and experienced. divTherefore your claim that forms arise in YOUR mind is dead wrong... At the most fundamental level forms just arise. What do they arise within? They arise within Buddha Nature for that is all that is possible for anything to arise within. Therefore the forms, as manifestations of Buddha Nature, are reality, because reality is the totality of all that exists. Hopefully this will get through to you someday. It's so clear and obvious. There are a couple of additional subtleties beyond this but I won't confuse you with them right now. Edgar On May 26, 2013, at 5:28 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, No, unfortunately not. Edgar does this all the time. He says something that seems to agree with what I've stated but then slips in one word that corrupts what I have stated. In this case the word is 'forms'. Edgar believes forms (structure, rationality) exists independently of us and we perceive it with our intellect. I believe we create the structures and superimpose it upon our experiences to create our perceptions. The bottom line is I claim all thoughts are illusory and Edgar claims they are part of reality. We have other disagreements but I still think most of them are semantic, but in some cases they do indeed to be fundamental. Other than that all is well...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Yeeaaay, Edgar and Bill are in total agreement, finally! :-) Siska -Original Message- From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
and Bill are in total agreement, finally! :-) Siska -Original Message- From: Edgar Owen edgarowen@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 07:55:25 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Nice Quote Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill!
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self,But my self was gone.The boundaries of my beingHad disappeared in the sea.Waves broke. Awareness rose again.And a voice returned me to myself.It always happens like this.Sea turns on itself and foams,And with every foaming bit another body.Another being takes form.And when the sea sends word,Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath.- Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self,But my self was gone.The boundaries of my beingHad disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again.And a voice returned me to myself.It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams,And with every foaming bit another body.Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word,Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@... Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill!
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
yes i have often watch the waves... great poem.,...cloud formations are another wonder...merle Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all otherillusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@... Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill!
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
edgar's pole is somewhere in the land of reason..far far away... merle Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all otherillusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@... Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill!
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Siska, Yes - waves, cloud formations, staring into a fire - anything chaotic, that is not rational. It allows your mind to disengage from trying to 'make sense' out of the changing forms and can enable you to slip into the experience of Buddha Nature. This is the very same technique as koans. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  yes i have often watch the waves... great poem.,...cloud formations are another wonder...merle  Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything.  In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke.  Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem.  My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature.  The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it.  It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke.  Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns.  His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned.  This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all otherillusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway.  It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
*** Re-Posting for Correction *** Merle, Yes - waves, cloud formations, staring into a fire - anything chaotic, that is not rational. It allows your mind to disengage from trying to 'make sense' out of the changing forms and can enable you to slip into the experience of Buddha Nature. This is the very same technique as koans. --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  yes i have often watch the waves... great poem.,...cloud formations are another wonder...merle  Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything.  In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke.  Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem.  My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature.  The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it.  It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke.  Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns.  His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned.  This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all otherillusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway.  It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
attention bill..note it's merle who said waves..etc..merle Siska, Yes - waves, cloud formations, staring into a fire - anything chaotic, that is not rational. It allows your mind to disengage from trying to 'make sense' out of the changing forms and can enable you to slip into the experience of Buddha Nature. This is the very same technique as koans. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote:  yes i have often watch the waves... great poem.,...cloud formations are another wonder...merle  Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything.  In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke.  Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem.  My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature.  The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it.  It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke.  Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns.  His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned.  This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all otherillusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway.  It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill!
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Merle,br/br/I think Bill! was referring to Siska's post where she said she followed the poem up to where the waves broke. Bill! seems to have replied to Siska using your post so it's an understandable mistake.br/br/Mikebr/br/Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Edgar, As long as you agree dualism is an illusion you can call it 'reality' if you wish. I don't agree, but we can let others decide for themselves if illusions are real or not. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Bill, People don't decide whether illusions are real or not. Reality does! Get that through your solipsistic head! Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 9:11 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, As long as you agree dualism is an illusion you can call it 'reality' if you wish. I don't agree, but we can let others decide for themselves if illusions are real or not. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill!
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Edgar, People create illusions so why can't people decide on whether they're real or not? I say they're not. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, People don't decide whether illusions are real or not. Reality does! Get that through your solipsistic head! Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 9:11 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, As long as you agree dualism is an illusion you can call it 'reality' if you wish. I don't agree, but we can let others decide for themselves if illusions are real or not. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
I say the thoughts have actual reality and a limited illusory implicit world view they carry with them. I don't find much reason to distinguish the neuronal firings of hearing a frog jumping into the water and the neuronal firings of remembering a frog jumping into water. But to take a thought seriously, haha, that way leads to madness. The fact of maths being so effective in science is still in my mind part of the mystery, and some little model of computation cribbed from recent popular science fails to address it. I also am pretty sure one may put pants on without having an effective reasonable model of computation externalized. One may just put the pants on. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On May 25, 2013 7:10 AM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Edgar, People create illusions so why can't people decide on whether they're real or not? I say they're not. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, People don't decide whether illusions are real or not. Reality does! Get that through your solipsistic head! Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 9:11 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, As long as you agree dualism is an illusion you can call it 'reality' if you wish. I don't agree, but we can let others decide for themselves if illusions are real or not. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Chris, Yes, if you manage to put your pants on in the morning you ARE using your rational mind. Bill obviously walks around without pants all day hoping to preserve his Zen... Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 11:14 AM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: I say the thoughts have actual reality and a limited illusory implicit world view they carry with them. I don't find much reason to distinguish the neuronal firings of hearing a frog jumping into the water and the neuronal firings of remembering a frog jumping into water. But to take a thought seriously, haha, that way leads to madness. The fact of maths being so effective in science is still in my mind part of the mystery, and some little model of computation cribbed from recent popular science fails to address it. I also am pretty sure one may put pants on without having an effective reasonable model of computation externalized. One may just put the pants on. Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On May 25, 2013 7:10 AM, Bill! billsm...@hhs1963.org wrote: Edgar, People create illusions so why can't people decide on whether they're real or not? I say they're not. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, People don't decide whether illusions are real or not. Reality does! Get that through your solipsistic head! Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 9:11 AM, Bill! wrote: Edgar, As long as you agree dualism is an illusion you can call it 'reality' if you wish. I don't agree, but we can let others decide for themselves if illusions are real or not. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: Bill, Total agreement as stated. Just incorporate what I said yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
yesterday that these forms exist in reality instead of in your nutty head and you'll have the whole meaning.. Edgar On May 25, 2013, at 3:41 AM, Bill! wrote: Siska, As you'll soon find out Edgar and I have almost the polar opposite opinion on just about everything. In fact he'll probably disagree with this statement ;) and will certainly jump all over the rest of this post. Rumi's poem/metaphor was: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. - Rumi I can just imagine Rumi standing on the beach watching the waves form, come rhythmically in, crash upon the beach and then spend themselves by slipping back into the sea - losing himself in Buddha Nature and later composing this poem. My interpretation of it is: I looked for my self, But my self was gone. The boundaries of my being Had disappeared in the sea. Rumi is describing the holistic experience of Buddha Nature. The illusion of dualism has vanished and his illusion of 'self' as something independent and apart from everything else has vanished with it. It has vanished into sea which is a metaphor for emptiness. Waves broke. Awareness rose again. And a voice returned me to myself. It always happens like this. Dualism returns. His holistic experience of Buddha Nature has been interrupted and his illusion of self has returned. This alternation between holism and dualism, between emptiness and self happens regularly, much like the waves surging rhythmically upon the beach. Sea turns on itself and foams, And with every foaming bit another body. Another being takes form. Now that he is abiding in dualism all other illusions, perceptions, thoughts, etc..., of all other (10,000) things appear. And when the sea sends word, Each foaming body melts back to ocean-breath. But when he returns again to Buddha Nature all these illusions melt back into emptiness. That's my reading of this anyway. It will be interesting to see what Edgar comes up with although I think I could almost write it for him... ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote: Hi Bill, I followed until: Waves broke. The rest is a bit confusing. It's as if the 'self' is back. Siska -Original Message- From: Bill! BillSmart@ Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 10:04:29 To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Nice Quote ..Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
[Zen] Nice Quote
...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Bill, Yes, nice quote IF you understand it correctly. The correct understanding is this is how the world of forms evolves and manifests in the sea of Buddha Nature. Edgar On May 24, 2013, at 6:04 AM, Bill! wrote: ...Bill!
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote
Edgar, So...does your statement below mean if you don't understand it correctly it's not a nice quote? The sea foam is a metaphor for illusion. It's something that has been churned up, appearing for a short time to be something separate from the sea, a dualistic set of sea:foam. I think you've ignored the last line: And when the sea sends word each foaming body [illusion] melts back to ocean-breath. ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: Bill, Yes, nice quote IF you understand it correctly. The correct understanding is this is how the world of forms evolves and manifests in the sea of Buddha Nature. Edgar On May 24, 2013, at 6:04 AM, Bill! wrote: ...Bill! Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Nice Quote
When you put it all down, you can believe in your true self one hundred percent. Then your mind is clear like space, which is clear like a mirror: red comes, red; white comes, white. Someone is hungry, give them food. Someone is thirsty, give them a drink. Everything is reflected in this clear mirror. Then you can see, hear, smell, taste, touch, and think clearly. The sky is blue, the tree is green; salt is salty, sugar is sweet. A dog is barking, Woof! Woof! Just like this, everything is the truth. So you are also truth. - Zen Master Seung Sahn Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[Zen] Nice Quote/Poem
My life may appear melancholy, But travelling through this world I have entrusted myself to Heaven. In my sack, three sho of rice; By the hearth, a bundle of firewood. If someone asks what is the mark of enlightenment or illusion, I cannot say...wealth and honor are nothing but dust, As the evening rain falls I sit in my hermitage And stretch out both feet in answer. - Daigu Ryokan (1758-1831) [source: thegreenleaf.co.uk] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Nice Quote/Poem
beautiful..and so to the point!..merle My life may appear melancholy, But travelling through this world I have entrusted myself to Heaven. In my sack, three sho of rice; By the hearth, a bundle of firewood. If someone asks what is the mark of enlightenment or illusion, I cannot say...wealth and honor are nothing but dust, As the evening rain falls I sit in my hermitage And stretch out both feet in answer. - Daigu Ryokan (1758-1831) [source: thegreenleaf.co.uk]
