Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
George Cobabe favored us with: I am the new guy and perhaps I misunderstood when I read the rules, but I thought that politics was a taboo subject. If not, then this list will be very much more interesting, but nowhere near as uplifting as I was hoping. George, I think that a list can be uplifting and interesting at the same time. And a little political discussion among friends just makes the conversation more interesting as long as we all remember that we are brothers and sisters in the gospel. This list may not be as uplifting as you were hoping, but I do not know of a list that is more uplifting. A member of my stake presidency hangs out here. Several of the members are former bishops. At least one is a current bishop, and another is a current stake president. Even those who have quit the list in disgust during one of our rare flame wars have returned after failing to find anything better out there in cyberspace. It is true that Marc, like many Canadians, is a tad anti-American. But believe me, there are a few here on the list that are pretty anti-Canadian too. For myself, I don't think that either country would fit very well into a terrestrial, much less a celestial, world. I guess it all depends on your point of view. I am a saint first and an US citizen a distant second. I would hope that the Canadians on the list are saints first and Canadians second. If Yuko Takei were here, she could explain to you that both countries are like hell compared with Japan, the only part of the Garden of Eden that survived to the 21st century. Anyway, forgive me for sermonizing. I'm incurably pedantic. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Marc A. Schindler favored us with: Obviously yes because we know from the Doctrine and Covenants that the Founding Fathers of the United States were inspired men raised up by God to rebel against Britain. It actually doesn't say this. See below. But it does say that the US Founders were raised up by God to write the Constitution. And it is hard to imagine how that Constitution could have been written if we had remain colonies. So, while it actually doesn't say this, it is implied very strongly. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
Stacy Smith favored us with: Well, I'd like to know just how many such lists there are. Judging from other lists on other subjects, there must be hundreds out there. For a while I was the Open Directory Project editor in charge of listing the LDS email discussion lists. There are 274 listed at the moment, but few that generate enough traffic to actually sustain a conversation. Probably the most active of all LDS lists is Mormon-L. But it is not exactly a faith promoting experience. A couple of years ago I promised I would never again participate there. I made the decision after a list member referred to Boyd KKK Packer. That didn't disgust me so much as the fact that no one on the list seemed outraged by it but myself. Check out http://dmoz.org/Society/Religion_and_Spirituality/Christianity/Denominations/Latter-day_Saints/Mailing_Lists/ John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described intellectuals --Uncle Bob === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
Rick Mathis favored us with: At 05:39 AM 12/17/2002 -0700, George wrote: Boy - you lost me there - are you asking about abilities (to argue) or the size of bullets (so as to end the argument)? Yes. I am in love with my Kalishnikov, 7.62x39mm. It is Chinese made and the sweetest weapon I've ever gone plinking with. Not only that, it was cheap, only a little more than my unfired SKS which only cost me 70 dollars. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] No biological basis for race
Stephen Beecroft favored us with: It's one thing to say that current racial classifications are imprecise, or getting blurred, or not useful for this or that purpose. All such proclamations may or may not be true. But to say that race doesn't exist is to be tautologically incorrect -- people whose ancestry originated in different parts of the world look more like others with similar ancestry than they do like those with ancestry from other parts of the world. And children look like their parents, so to say that there is no biological basis for race is to play the fool. I agree. Sometimes my son gives me the hand jive when all I want to do is shake hands. Give me a whiteman's handshake I say. Then, slapping my forehead I realize, my son isn't a white man. LOL --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] No biological basis for race
At 14:45 12/17/2002 -0700, M Marc St Stephan wrote: to play the fool. Stephen Play the fool is not a scientific concept either ;-) Hey, wait, that's my part! You'se guys can't be stealing my part ... Till who even got a new costume for the next show // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
At 11:17 PM 12/17/2002 -0900, the BLT wrote: It is true that Marc, like many Canadians, is a tad anti-American. But believe me, there are a few here on the list that are pretty anti-Canadian too. But how could any rational man, having seen the brilliant documentary Canadian Bacon be otherwise? Rick Mathis // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] No biological basis for race
Hey, wait, that's my part! You'se guys can't be stealing my part ... Till who even got a new costume for the next show In the spirit of Christmas, Till, I forgive you for tempting me to the utmost with your provocative statements. That's a most humble forgiveness, too. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
The gathering at the city council meeting last night was a zoo. I got there about 6:00. The public comment session was supposed to begin at 7:00, but the crowd had already filled up two overflow rooms and was winding down the corridors, and there were already many hundreds of people waiting. A small group with a vocal presence was the most disruptive. These were Jesus people, come to threaten the Mormons with hellfire and damnation. Several of these gained the microphone during the open period. They asserted that Jesus commands their belligerence and rudeness. One of them asserted that the Pledge to the flag which began the session should have been directed to Mormon dictatorship. Most of the speakers I heard were actually rather thoughtful, notwithstanding the few nutty fanatics. Quite a number of them were prominent members of the community. I don't know what collective wisdom the city council might have derived, putting it all together, but it was an interesting exercise in democracy. At least no one can complain that there was no public forum in the decision-making process. One of the ideas that came to me while the anti-Mormon faction was pounding the pulpit was that we ought to revive the spirit of Porter Rockwell. These ugly public bullies would not be so bold if Rockwell was around. I suggested eariler in a letter to the Deseret News that the Whistling and Whittling Brigade might also be a good notion to resurrect. When the Nauvoo Charter was revoked by Illinois in 1845, following the murder of Joseph Smith, Nauvoo lost the legal right to enforce laws, and became a target for troublemakers. Nauvoo Church leaders organized a gang of young men to identify such parties as they entered the town. The boys would press around these ill-intentioned characters, saying nothing to them, but busily whistling and whittling, with an obvious display of a lot of sharp knives. Apparently most of the bad men were immediately discouraged and quickly left the town. Perhaps such a scheme could serve to preserve the peace at Temple Square while the arguments continue. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
Day of Heckling on Plaza Thrusts Issues to Forefront The scene earlier today on the Main Street plaza included street preachers carrying placards and screaming their beliefs, sometimes through bullhorns. December 17, 2002 KSL News Specialist Carole Mikita reporting Salt Lake City Council chambers are expected to be packed tonight for the public hearing on the Main Street plaza controversy. The issue of free speech came to a boiling point on the Main Street Plaza today... when protestors heckled wedding parties. News Specialist Carole Mikita has that story as well as reaction from Mayor Anderson. Deanie and Bruce... today's encounter on the plaza caused the mayor to rethink his own time, place and manner restrictions which he proposed as a solution to this problem... it now appears that even he believes some have pushed the idea of free speech too far. They call themselves Bible believers... with giant placards in hand and shouting sometimes through bullhornsthey drew plenty of attention from passersby and wedding parties. IF YOU TRY TO DO ANYTHING TO INFRINGE ON A PERSON'S FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS... AND MY ATTORNEYS DON'T ONLY LIKE TO GO AFTER THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, THEY LIKE TO GO AFTER YOUR PENSIONS... A Salt Lake City police officer, tried to get them to move just 20 feet down the walkway, so that brides and grooms could take pictures with the temple behind them. They refused to leave... COMMON DECENCY, YOU DON'T HAVE IT... I'M NOT MOVIN... THAT'S RIGHT... I'M NOT MOVIN... Anne Burt/ Mother of the BrideI'M NOT ANGRY, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO GO WITH THE FLOW... BUT IT'S TOO BAD, IT'S TOO BAD... I'M SURE THEY ALL HAVE DAUGHTERS AND SOMEDAY WOULD LIKE TO HAVE THEIR PICTURES TAKEN, TOO BUT, YOU KNOW, LIFE GOES ON... AND SAINTS AND SANTS AND ANGELS SING... Then a Latter-day Saint seminary choir in the downtown area to perform, added their voices to counter the screams of the street preachers... Tonight Mayor Anderson said he received a letter from the ACLU saying protestors must be allowed along the full length of the easement... he saw what happened this morning and changed his mind about time, place and manner restrictions. Rocky Anderson/ Salt Lake City Mayor THERE WERE SOME VERY OBNOXIOUS, LOUD PEOPLE YELLING OBSCENITIES APPARENTLY... DISRUPTING A WEDDING PARTY... THAT IS SO COUNTER TO ANYTHING THAT ANYBODY INTENDED ON THIS PLAZA AND IF IT TAKES THAT TO MAKE THESE TIME, PLACE AND MANNER RESTRICTIONS WORK... THEN WE OUGHT TO JUST TAKE THE WHOLE PROPOSAL OFF THE TABLE AND LOOK AT SOMETHING ELSE... The mayor is now supporting the proposal that he made yesterday with the Alliance for Unity. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
Many thanks for the first-hand account. The story of what happened on the easement, as reported on KSL is making the rounds of the Internet. Odd (well, maybe not) that it takes idiots like Kurt Van Gordon to p*** in their own manger, as my uncle used to say . KVG was the instigator behind most of the demonstrations, and who loves to try to sue anyone who 'defames' him [I only write this without trepidation because I am safely in Canada. Not that he couldn't hire a lawyer up here, but he'd have to find Canada first, as the old joke goes]. Anyway, he's well-known to many LDS apologists and is one of the more obnoxious breeds of anti-Mormons. Even the Tanners won't have anything to do with him. Jim Cobabe wrote: The gathering at the city council meeting last night was a zoo. I got there about 6:00. The public comment session was supposed to begin at 7:00, but the crowd had already filled up two overflow rooms and was winding down the corridors, and there were already many hundreds of people waiting. A small group with a vocal presence was the most disruptive. These were Jesus people, come to threaten the Mormons with hellfire and damnation. Several of these gained the microphone during the open period. They asserted that Jesus commands their belligerence and rudeness. One of them asserted that the Pledge to the flag which began the session should have been directed to Mormon dictatorship. Most of the speakers I heard were actually rather thoughtful, notwithstanding the few nutty fanatics. Quite a number of them were prominent members of the community. I don't know what collective wisdom the city council might have derived, putting it all together, but it was an interesting exercise in democracy. At least no one can complain that there was no public forum in the decision-making process. One of the ideas that came to me while the anti-Mormon faction was pounding the pulpit was that we ought to revive the spirit of Porter Rockwell. These ugly public bullies would not be so bold if Rockwell was around. I suggested eariler in a letter to the Deseret News that the Whistling and Whittling Brigade might also be a good notion to resurrect. When the Nauvoo Charter was revoked by Illinois in 1845, following the murder of Joseph Smith, Nauvoo lost the legal right to enforce laws, and became a target for troublemakers. Nauvoo Church leaders organized a gang of young men to identify such parties as they entered the town. The boys would press around these ill-intentioned characters, saying nothing to them, but busily whistling and whittling, with an obvious display of a lot of sharp knives. Apparently most of the bad men were immediately discouraged and quickly left the town. Perhaps such a scheme could serve to preserve the peace at Temple Square while the arguments continue. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] LOTR
Is it true that Howard Shore, the composer of the music for The Lord of the Rings, is a Canadian? Regardless, my hat is off to him. The music is one of the best things about the movie. Of course, that is just my humble opinion. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] No biological basis for race
After all, it doesn't say the elect (like, say, a tall, young good-looking bishop) *will* be deceived, it only says they *could* be. Mark Gregson wrote: Hey, wait, that's my part! You'se guys can't be stealing my part ... Till who even got a new costume for the next show In the spirit of Christmas, Till, I forgive you for tempting me to the utmost with your provocative statements. That's a most humble forgiveness, too. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] New guy
John W. Redelfs wrote: Stacy Smith favored us with: Well, I'd like to know just how many such lists there are. Judging from other lists on other subjects, there must be hundreds out there. For a while I was the Open Directory Project editor in charge of listing the LDS email discussion lists. There are 274 listed at the moment, but few that generate enough traffic to actually sustain a conversation. Probably the most active of all LDS lists is Mormon-L. But it is not exactly a faith promoting experience. A couple of years ago I promised I would never again participate there. I made the decision after a list member referred to Boyd KKK Packer. That didn't disgust me so much as the fact that no one on the list seemed outraged by it but myself. Not no one, actually. ;-) -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Yeah, and I think I made it even worse when I was trying to figure out how I got the two dates mixed up, and the only thing I was thinking of that could have made a neural short like that was de Tocqueville, but later I recalled that he made his famous tour *after* the Revolution. So, I guess it was just a simple slip. My apologies for any misunderstanding. John W. Redelfs wrote: George Cobabe favored us with: Hate to be picky Marc, but the French Revolution is generally thought to have occurred between 1789 and 1799, sometime after the American Revolution. You might recall the keys dates of 1776 and 1782 for America. I think it was the French following the American example. He's got you there, Marc. It is unusual for you to make such a gaffe. You must be having a bad day. --JWR -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
John W. Redelfs wrote: Marc A. Schindler favored us with: Obviously yes because we know from the Doctrine and Covenants that the Founding Fathers of the United States were inspired men raised up by God to rebel against Britain. It actually doesn't say this. See below. But it does say that the US Founders were raised up by God to write the Constitution. Indeed. And it is hard to imagine how that Constitution could have been written if we had remain colonies. This is also true, but it's a logical extension of the first, not something that's said explicitly to be inspired. I know it's a nit, but I think the Lord uses historical events, he doesn't cause them, else we wouldn't have free will*. His plan is so elegant that His kingdom will come regardless of what choices humanity makes. I don't profess to understand how that's possible, although some of my studies of chaotic systems in mathematics show that in principle what appears to be random and chaotic can have a pre-determined result, although not a result that can be figured out by our current mathematics (cellular automata comes close, but the problem is always knowing the initial conditions, and if the Big Bang was actually how our universe was created, those initial conditions are forever lost if we go back extrapolating in time, lost in the great singularity of the first 10^-43 seconds. *I'll give you an example. I know what I'm going to write may offend some, and I apologize for that in advance; it's not meant to be offensive. However, I do remember one GA (and not ETB; in fact I believe it was DOM) saying, referring to the famous vision of Wilford Woodruff (where he was directed to do the temple work for the founding fathers), that all the founding fathers were men who believed in Christ's divinity and atonement. But in secular history it didn't quite work out that way. Thomas Jefferson was a deist; these days he would probably be a Unitarian, and Benjamin Franklin was not an observing Christian, either, from what I remember. I'm not saying he was an atheist, but iirc, his own thinking tended towards deism as well (the difference between deism and theism is that both believe there's a higher power but the deist doesn't believe it's a personal entity whereas theism does). Thomas Jefferson was very much a Renaissance man, and was accomplished in many areas. One of the things he did was kind of a precursor to the modern, so-called Jesus Seminar, sponsored by the Westar Institute. That is, Jefferson rewrote the New Testament so it only included what he felt were the original sayings of Jesus, and that excluded any references to miracles, let alone the atonement and resurrection. Again, no offence is meant, but God uses the materials at hand, so to speak, he doesn't override people's free will. So, while it actually doesn't say this, it is implied very strongly. --JWR -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Tobacco interests lose a big one in Canada; LDS involvement
We don't have the same tradition of class action suits here like you do in the US. Tort reform is a hot topic in the US these days, too, as I recall -- one of the reasons was some particular damages that were awarded by juries in Mississippi (the Loewen case comes to mind). Perhaps Tom can comment further if he has the time and inclination. What's embarrassing is that Ken Kyle was in my stake when we lived in Ottawa, and he says he remembers us, but I can't remember him -- I know the name, but can't remember the face. Anyway, I thought listmembers might be proud that some Saints are having influence for the good in high places. Chet wrote: Marc A. Schindler wrote a lotta stuff I'm not even gonna try to keep up with. Mainly, it said that tobacco companies are getting beat on in Canada. I hope so. I really hope so. Because in this country, the tobacco companies are being beaten on by being sued. They raise their prices, so that everyone wins: the government gets more money, the tobacco companies get more money, the smokers are gonna smoke no matter what, and a good portion of the revenue from the lawsuits go NOT to stop smoking -- but to subsidize tobacco farmers. Please tell me Canada's not going to go the same route. *jeep! --Chet Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Nici o problema - as the Romanians are fond of saying. Gepff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/18/02 01:53PM Yeah, and I think I made it even worse when I was trying to figure out how I got the two dates mixed up, and the only thing I was thinking of that could have made a neural short like that was de Tocqueville, but later I recalled that he made his famous tour *after* the Revolution. So, I guess it was just a simple slip. My apologies for any misunderstanding. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
Are you saying that the following doesn't say the US saw it first? The U.S. government has made copies of the Iraqi weapons declaration and distributed them to the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council and other council members with expertise to assess the declaration for proliferation-sensitive information, State Department deputy spokesman Philip Reeker said at the daily media briefing in Washington December 10. Reeker said once such information has been deleted, a working document will be made available to other members of the council as soon as possible. And again, in the QA session: Question: There have been some grumblings on the sideline about Washington taking the first set of documents and whisking them down here to copy them off. Have you received any messages like that from Permanent 5 members or other Security Council members? Mr. Reeker: No. And, in fact, all Permanent 5 members have their copies, as I think we talked about yesterday. As I mentioned, based on the Council president's decision -- which was an appropriate one and consistent with the resolution -- we assisted in ensuring the safeguards against release, transmission of proliferation-sensitive information, making sure that that was not jeopardized. So we did the copying of this. We got the copies to all of those members with that expertise and all together we will be assessing the full document to see about proliferation-sensitive information so that then we can make available to other members of the Council a working document as soon as possible. Now tell me: how is it possible to do copying for others when you don't have the document yourself to begin with? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marc Schindler: This just isn't true, I'm afraid. They were *delivered* to the Security Council, but the US still managed to get first crack at them. An excerpt from the US State Dept. briefing: ... ___ This just is true, I'm afraid. And your excerpt begins by saying just what I said. That you wish to ascribe special motives to the person running the copy center is your prerogative. That you feel the spokesman was not appropriate because the US didn't do it the way you think it would have been done in Canada is also your prerogative. That was not my point at all. Please reread it. It was referring to an earlier thread where some people on this list assumed that Francie Ducros was a politician because they were used to seeing presidential and cabinet spokespeople making statements, which doesn't happen in parliamentary systems. Enjoy your prerogative. It's not my prerogative you're criticizing, it's a straw man you're criticizing. You are not criticizing what I wrote, but how you *read* it. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
After intense thought, Marc favored us with: This is also true, but it's a logical extension of the first, not something that's said explicitly to be inspired. I know it's a nit, but I think the Lord uses historical events, he doesn't cause them, else we wouldn't have free will*. His plan is so elegant that His kingdom will come regardless of what choices humanity makes. But you are forgetting one truth: God is Omnipotent - he knows all. He knew and planned for Joseph Smith to be born in the United States near the hill Cumorah where the golden plates were buried and sealed up to come forth by His power. Additionally, He knew that Joseph would eventually give in to Martin's harangues and give up the 116 pages of the Book of Lehi. Yet, God provided a way for his work to be accomplished, DESPITE the choices made by men. While He might not directly cause historical events, per se, He can and will certainly intervene (remember Alma the Younger) if necessary. Knowing all, He can plan around the mistakes of men. As far as Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin go (as well as perhaps others of the Founding Fathers), their drift toward deism and away from institutionalized Christianity may have been as much due to the corrupt sects of the day as any other. Perhaps history knows them as such because they sought to distance themselves from false Christianity. I guess we will find out when we leave this earthly sphere and see them on the other side. Perhaps having been finally taught the fulness of truth in the spirit world, they fully embraced it (and at least some of them did; else why appear to Wilford Woodruff and request that their work be done for them?). Your brother, Geoff -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Gepff!? I have no idea who that is - apparently he speaks Romanian too. Strange... Geoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/18/02 02:16PM Nici o problema - as the Romanians are fond of saying. Gepff [EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/18/02 01:53PM Yeah, and I think I made it even worse when I was trying to figure out how I got the two dates mixed up, and the only thing I was thinking of that could have made a neural short like that was de Tocqueville, but later I recalled that he made his famous tour *after* the Revolution. So, I guess it was just a simple slip. My apologies for any misunderstanding. -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] LOTR
I don't know. Tom, Mark? John W. Redelfs wrote: Is it true that Howard Shore, the composer of the music for The Lord of the Rings, is a Canadian? Regardless, my hat is off to him. The music is one of the best things about the movie. Of course, that is just my humble opinion. --JWR -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
There was no misunderstanding - most everyone knew that you had erred. I was just impolite enough to point it out. Therefore it is I that must beg forgiveness for my rudeness in pointing out error. I will try to be more polite in the future, when you make other mistakes regarding US history, intentions, and policy. :-) George George - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 1:53 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21 Yeah, and I think I made it even worse when I was trying to figure out how I got the two dates mixed up, and the only thing I was thinking of that could have made a neural short like that was de Tocqueville, but later I recalled that he made his famous tour *after* the Revolution. So, I guess it was just a simple slip. My apologies for any misunderstanding. John W. Redelfs wrote: George Cobabe favored us with: Hate to be picky Marc, but the French Revolution is generally thought to have occurred between 1789 and 1799, sometime after the American Revolution. You might recall the keys dates of 1776 and 1782 for America. I think it was the French following the American example. He's got you there, Marc. It is unusual for you to make such a gaffe. You must be having a bad day. --JWR -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. - Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Microsoft interview questions
The funnest thing about interviewing at Microsoft are the famous (or infamous) interview questions, of which you're likely to get at least one per interview. A classic example is: You have three closed barrels in front of you, one filled with black marbles, one filled with white marbles, and one filled with a mix of black and white marbles. You also have three labels, one to a barrel, reading Black, White, and Mixed. You are told that each barrel has the wrong sign on it. You are allowed to draw one marble from a barrel. What is the least number of marbles you can draw to put the signs aright, and from which barrel(s) do you draw it/them? *(Answer below) Here's one I just got this afternoon that I hadn't heard before, though I'm pretty sure it's an old question: You wish to market a climbing chain consisting of some lengths of chain that can be joined together by carob-beaners (removeable links). Regular chain links are dirt-cheap; carob-beaners are very expensive. You want to market a chain set that can be used to create a chain of any length between one and twenty-one links, without any left-over links. (That is, you must have exactly 21 links in your kit, including carob-beaners.) What is the least number of carob-beaners you must include in the kit, and what are the lengths of chain you must also include? **(Answer below) Stephen (SPOILER: Answers below) * Draw one marble from the barrel labeled Mixed, since you know it's either the black or the white barrel (it isn't mixed -- the labels are all wrong). Put the appropriate label on that barrel, move the remaining Black or White label onto the now-unsigned barrel, and put the Mixed label on the remaining barrel. ** Short answer: Three carob-beaners, four lengths of chain as follows: 7 links, 7 links, 3 links, 1 link. Longer answer: You can quickly show that two carob-beaners is insufficient for making the correct combinations, since you must then have a three-link chain (your carob-beaners only combine for two links), and then a six-link chain (your three-link chain and carob-beaners only combine for five links). Two carob-beaners will only allow you to join a maximum of three lengths of chain; so your third length has to be 21 - 6 - 3 - 1 - 1, or ten links long. However, you have no way to make a nine-link chain: 6 + 1 + 1 = 8, and 6 + 1 + 3 = 10 (you can't directly join the six-link and three-link chains without a carob-beaner). So (Point #1) you will require at least three carob-beaners. Now, if you have three carob-beaners, that means you can have up to four lengths of chain. But how do you go from a 20-link chain to a 21-link chain? You have to add on a single link. That last link is either one of your carob-beaners (in which case you can only have three lengths of chain, not four), or else you have to have a one-link length of chain. You can quickly show that three carob-beaners and three lengths of chain won't work, so (Point #2) one of your four chain lengths must be a single link. Once you see these two points, you can play with the combinations and figure out the chain lengths that will allow you to do it with three carob-beaners. If anyone has insight how to arrive at an answer faster, please do tell. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Be careful when you use Latinate terms: they are often more restrictive than LDS doctrines. This is the problem with the term omnipotence. It's understood in a mechanical way (that's one reason Latin is not a good language for religion; it was better for armies and bureaucrats) ;-) But that raises the philosophical dilemma of free will. We LDS do *not* believe God is omnipotent in the sense the Romans used this term -- we believe he's subject to natural law, and we believe that even spirit is a type of matter. That means we don't believe in the supernatural, but, to coin a word, the metanatural. There's a world of difference. Now with omniscience, which may be the term you meant to use, it's not quite as bad, but we also have to understand that the telestial world in which we live has only 1 dimension to time. You can't read apocalyptic texts like Daniel, parts of Isaiah and Revelation, not to mention Ezekiel and Matthew 24, without realizing that there might be more than one approach to time. So omniscience is lacking in meaning for Latter-day Saints. Just as I said, speculating of course, and in terms of my own background, mathematicians fwiw recognize that there are potentially stable solutions to chaotic, nonlinear equations (think of the weather, or cream swirling in a cup of cocoa). If you track some of these functions in a particular cross-section (using either time sampling or some other factor) you see a stable pattern, which is known as an attractor (actually a strange attractor for chaotic functions, not to be confused with an astronomical term of the same name). The implication of this is that the end of a process which is chaotic in our time as an arrow universe, when plotted in a dimensional space that is a superset of 1D time, can be an attractor. But I know I'm getting perhaps needlessly technical. The point is that omniscience has certain connotations which are cultural and which may not (indeed, I believe they do not) fully describe *how* God knows and what it really means to say that He knows all things without falling back on magical or supernatural solutions which is a God of the gaps approach, trying to fit God into a box we can understand. Geoff FOWLER wrote: After intense thought, Marc favored us with: This is also true, but it's a logical extension of the first, not something that's said explicitly to be inspired. I know it's a nit, but I think the Lord uses historical events, he doesn't cause them, else we wouldn't have free will*. His plan is so elegant that His kingdom will come regardless of what choices humanity makes. But you are forgetting one truth: God is Omnipotent - he knows all. He knew and planned for Joseph Smith to be born in the United States near the hill Cumorah where the golden plates were buried and sealed up to come forth by His power. Additionally, He knew that Joseph would eventually give in to Martin's harangues and give up the 116 pages of the Book of Lehi. Yet, God provided a way for his work to be accomplished, DESPITE the choices made by men. While He might not directly cause historical events, per se, He can and will certainly intervene (remember Alma the Younger) if necessary. Knowing all, He can plan around the mistakes of men. As far as Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin go (as well as perhaps others of the Founding Fathers), their drift toward deism and away from institutionalized Christianity may have been as much due to the corrupt sects of the day as any other. Perhaps history knows them as such because they sought to distance themselves from false Christianity. I guess we will find out when we leave this earthly sphere and see them on the other side. Perhaps having been finally taught the fulness of truth in the spirit world, they fully embraced it (and at least some of them did; else why appear to Wilford Woodruff and request that their work be done for them?). Fair enough, and nothing I wrote should be taken to contradict your last paragraph. What I am saying is that it can be dangerous to try to understand Divine means in human, secular terms. There are two extremes here, and we have to steer the strait of Styx between them, so to speak. One extreme is biblical literalism, such as conservative Protestants believe in, where they retroject their modern cultural assumptions back into the scriptures (this is how trinitarianism and anti-anthropomorphism arose, for instance). The other extreme is the new history approach in liberal Mormonism, where people like Brent Metcalfe and Tom Murphy try to equate what BM in particular calls prophetic truth with historical truth. This is also known (I think BKP said this) as tripping over their own professionalism. There is a middle ground where have to admit we don't always know what scriptures mean. Handy for us we have a prophet around, as only a prophet can re-read an earlier prophet's statements and apply them to his own jurisdiction. That's a fundamental
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Believe me, I don't mind being called to task when I'm wrong. Now, I have to admit, sometimes I don't always agree I'm wrong, but that's a course of a different holler. George Cobabe wrote: There was no misunderstanding - most everyone knew that you had erred. I was just impolite enough to point it out. Therefore it is I that must beg forgiveness for my rudeness in pointing out error. I will try to be more polite in the future, when you make other mistakes regarding US history, intentions, and policy. :-) George -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Marc intelligently replied: Be careful when you use Latinate terms: they are often more restrictive than LDS doctrines. [...] But that raises the philosophical dilemma of free will. We LDS do *not* believe God is omnipotent in the sense the Romans used this term -- we believe he's subject to natural law, and we believe that even spirit is a type of matter. That means we don't believe in the supernatural, but, to coin a word, the metanatural. There's a world of difference. You are correct, Marc. Omnipotent means unlimited power, while omniscient is unlimited knowledge. Thank you for correcting me. :) On that subject, yes, I agree that God is subject to natural law - but obviously we mortals do not have a full understanding of said law (and will not until we become as He is, am I right?). I like the word metanatural, BTW. Now with omniscience, which may be the term you meant to use, it's not quite as bad, but we also have to understand that the telestial world in which we live has only 1 dimension to time. You can't read apocalyptic texts like Daniel, parts of Isaiah and Revelation, not to mention Ezekiel and Matthew 24, without realizing that there might be more than one approach to time. [...] I also agree that we do not understand *how* God's omniscience works. However, any discussion of the attributes of God falls under what you term as trying to fit God into a box we can understand. Since we are not like Him yet, and hence do not understand everything He does, we have to use those terms and concepts that we do understand, while at the same time recognizing that perhaps we will never truly understand any of these attributes fully until we arrive on the other side of the veil. Until then, we work by faith and our comprehension increases line by line, precept by precept... as the Spirit presents this knowledge to us. Unfortunately for me, my understanding of mathematics is just as limited. I know, I know, I need to repent. :) Geoff -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Subject to natural law
I think it is not doctrinal to assert that Heavenly Father is subject to natural law in the same sense that we are. To put it thus incorrectly reverses the attribution of cause. God decreed the laws of the universe, and sustains them by the word of His power--the laws are subordinate to Him. They are becase He is. He acts in a manner consistent with the laws of His own decree, not because He is subject to natural law, but because natural laws are _His_ laws. He is the ultimate source--not a subject. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] New WTC plans announced
New York has decided to go with a mixture of skyscrapers and memoria, although the exact plan has yet to be chosen. The new towers will surpass the Petronas Towers in Kuala Lumpur (currently the world's tallest building[s]), although not, iiirc, one or two buildings proposed for Shanghai and Hong Kong: http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Northeast/12/18/wtc.rebuilding/index.html -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Iraq
I can't say I told you so yet but Bush has announced today that despite the omissions in the report on WMD delivered by Iraq to the UN (and only today being given to the non-permanent members of the Security Council, incidentally), war is not imminent. I've been of the opinion since this issue arose that there won't be a war in Iraq, that the situation is at least as much about domestic US politics as it is with anything actually going on in Iraq and that we'd see a gradual backing down once the mid-term elections were past. I could be wrong -- I guess we'll see. http://my.netscape.com/corewidgets/news/story.psp?cat=51180id=200212181727000163465 -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
The real question is who created the law for this universe. Are the laws for this universe, and this God, different from those of other universes? If God was the one who created the unique laws for this creation, then He would surely be Omnipotent in every sense of the word - Latin or otherwise. George - Original Message - From: Geoff FOWLER [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21 Marc intelligently replied: Be careful when you use Latinate terms: they are often more restrictive than LDS doctrines. [...] But that raises the philosophical dilemma of free will. We LDS do *not* believe God is omnipotent in the sense the Romans used this term -- we believe he's subject to natural law, and we believe that even spirit is a type of matter. That means we don't believe in the supernatural, but, to coin a word, the metanatural. There's a world of difference. You are correct, Marc. Omnipotent means unlimited power, while omniscient is unlimited knowledge. Thank you for correcting me. :) On that subject, yes, I agree that God is subject to natural law - but obviously we mortals do not have a full understanding of said law (and will not until we become as He is, am I right?). I like the word metanatural, BTW. Now with omniscience, which may be the term you meant to use, it's not quite as bad, but we also have to understand that the telestial world in which we live has only 1 dimension to time. You can't read apocalyptic texts like Daniel, parts of Isaiah and Revelation, not to mention Ezekiel and Matthew 24, without realizing that there might be more than one approach to time. [...] I also agree that we do not understand *how* God's omniscience works. However, any discussion of the attributes of God falls under what you term as trying to fit God into a box we can understand. Since we are not like Him yet, and hence do not understand everything He does, we have to use those terms and concepts that we do understand, while at the same time recognizing that perhaps we will never truly understand any of these attributes fully until we arrive on the other side of the veil. Until then, we work by faith and our comprehension increases line by line, precept by precept... as the Spirit presents this knowledge to us. Unfortunately for me, my understanding of mathematics is just as limited. I know, I know, I need to repent. :) Geoff -- [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Microsoft interview questions
-Marc- No wonder Microsoft's spellchecker is so lousy ;-) (carabiners, from a German word for carbine hook. Ah. I had never seen/heard the term, and the guy (Russian) called/spelled them carob-beaners. I wondered how that term had come about. What's a carob bean, anyway? But I had nothing to do with Microsoft's spell-checker. Otherwise, it wouldn't suggest Bereft every time I write my name. IIRC, aren't Italy's alpine police known as carabinieri?) Yes, the special forces guys who carry machine guns. Also known as carob-beaners. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Jim Cobabe wrote: I think it is not doctrinal to assert that Heavenly Father is subject to natural law in the same sense that we are. To put it thus incorrectly reverses the attribution of cause. Ah, there's a crucial difference there: that we are. I would agree with your modified statement, but then that's not quite what I wrote originally. We don't know what it means to say that God is subject to natural law because we are only beginning to understand the laws that govern our realm, let alone any realm that transcends ours. But the statement itself, without the qualification, is from Joseph Smith. God decreed the laws of the universe, and sustains them by the word of His power--the laws are subordinate to Him. They are becase He is. He acts in a manner consistent with the laws of His own decree, not because He is subject to natural law, but because natural laws are _His_ laws. Hmm, I'll have to think about that one. I'm not sure I'd agree with your statement as it's written. I think he's subject to a natural law that is higher than the ones we're subject to. But he's still subject to *some* kind of natural law. A parallel is our unique claim that spirit is refined matter. That means it's matter, but it's not what Paul would call corruptible, but rather incorruptible. What does that mean? We don't really know yet. He is the ultimate source--not a subject. This is where you can fall into a word trap if you're not careful. St. Anselm is best known for what's known in philosophy as the ontological argument for the existence of God. But Anselm believed in creatio ex nihilo and that God was the prime mover. His argument was that for our world to have come into being, there had to be a being behind its creation. But we don't believe in this -- we certainly believe God created the world, I'm not disputing that, but we don't believe God is the ultimate cause in the philosophical sense. We believe that God was once as we are, which implies all kinds of things. Those implications, which many early brethren speculated about, are exactly that: speculations. But it's clear that we do not share the Roman church's philosophical foundations with respect to the nature of God. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
-Marc- We LDS do *not* believe God is omnipotent in the sense the Romans used this term -- we believe he's subject to natural law, Perhaps you believe so. I don't. God's word defines natural law. He is the master, not the subject. That is why he is called the Lawgiver. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Geoff FOWLER wrote: I also agree that we do not understand *how* God's omniscience works. However, any discussion of the attributes of God falls under what you term as trying to fit God into a box we can understand. Since we are not like Him yet, and hence do not understand everything He does, we have to use those terms and concepts that we do understand, while at the same time recognizing that perhaps we will never truly understand any of these attributes fully until we arrive on the other side of the veil. Until then, we work by faith and our comprehension increases line by line, precept by precept... as the Spirit presents this knowledge to us. Exactly, which is why I kept warning that I was a hammer looking for nails. That's another way of saying my own speculation was a box, too, with its own boundaries. None of us is [yet] out of the box, so to speak. Unfortunately for me, my understanding of mathematics is just as limited. I know, I know, I need to repent. :) Heavens, yes! That's as bad as falling asleep during the Begatitudes ;-) -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Jim Cobabe wrote: It is instructive that many of the revisionists who spin this deist misinformation, primarily about Jefferson, are openly and dogmatically promoting their own flavor of atheist or agnostic evangelism. There is really no compelling documentation to support their arguments, and every evidence to suggest that Jefferson, at least, was a devoutly and fervently religious man in his own right. Is it really an issue with you? Are you sure you want to go down that road? -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Stephen Beecroft wrote: --- God's word defines natural law. He is the master, not the subject. That is why he is called the Lawgiver. --- Yes, I thought that was a significant point to emphasize. Perhaps this is just another one of those silly, figurative notions that unenlightened fundamentalists like me trip over so often. And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings; Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things, which is the law by which all things are governed, even the power of God who sitteth upon his throne, who is in the bosom of eternity, who is in the midst of all things. (Doctrine and Covenants 88:12-13.) --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
-Stephen- God's word defines natural law. He is the master, not the subject. That is why he is called the Lawgiver. -Jim- Yes, I thought that was a significant point to emphasize. Interesting that we independently arrived at a similar conclusion, even using similar wording. Almost like we were both listening to the same doctrine... Perhaps this is just another one of those silly, figurative notions that unenlightened fundamentalists like me trip over so often. Probably so. I would weep for your pitiful, ignorant state, but you're above my visual range. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Stephen Beecroft favored us with: -Marc- We LDS do *not* believe God is omnipotent in the sense the Romans used this term -- we believe he's subject to natural law, Perhaps you believe so. I don't. God's word defines natural law. He is the master, not the subject. That is why he is called the Lawgiver. This is not Mormon doctrine according to my understanding. God was once a mortal man, and became God by living the natural laws that never had a beginning and will never have an end. He is the Law Giver because he gives laws to man in addition to these uncreated laws. The point is, God is bound by natural law just as much as we. That is LDS Doctrine as I understand it. The other doctrine, that he created all the natural laws, is a Protestant doctrine. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients. But we can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is what annoys me. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Give me some time John and I think I can demonstrate that this is not necessarily so. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 7:23 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law Jim Cobabe favored us with: I think it is not doctrinal to assert that Heavenly Father is subject to natural law in the same sense that we are. To put it thus incorrectly reverses the attribution of cause. God decreed the laws of the universe, and sustains them by the word of His power--the laws are subordinate to Him. They are becase He is. He acts in a manner consistent with the laws of His own decree, not because He is subject to natural law, but because natural laws are _His_ laws. It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him. They are uncreate. And it was by obedience to these laws that he because God. Remember, he was once a mortal man. The idea that he made all the laws included those by which he progressed to become a God is a Protestant idea. It is akin to creating something from nothing, which of course is impossible even for God. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] World's Tallest Buildings
I think it is hubris to imagine we should build towers still taller than the WTC. Sure they can build them, but the experience with the WTC proves that someone else can knock them down. What is the point? Why make buildings a tempting target unnecessarily? I should think that the builders of the WTC would have learned their lesson. Super tall building are not a good idea. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday School and seminary classes every fourth year. This four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by Church members in their personal and family study. We need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get a man nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book. (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
John W. Redelfs wrote: It would have been nice if you had joined me in my protest, Marc. I don't remember hearing a peep from you. There is a bishop in my stake who is a longtime Mormon-L-er, and he didn't say anything either. Bob Westover didn't say anything either. I wasn't so disgusted with Richard Russell's blasphemy. I expected as much from him. But the lack of protest persuaded me that I had no place on the list. I was truly offended by the lack of protest. You know what would have happened if someone had said something negative about D. Michael Quinn. Aw... nevermind. It is all ancient history. Well, I guess we remember it differently. But my style on Mormon-L, where I kind of considered myself a self-appointed home teacher in the same sense I am responsible for the no contacts in our ward* is such that I wasn't going to come out and call people blasphemers or whatever, but I distinctly remember asking that people observe the golden rule; that just as they didn't like some of your characterizations of liberals, they, too, should show some respect and common decency. Also, as I recall, it was RR who made the remark, I believe it was PB. But I could be mistaken. Probably neither one of us cares enough about it to search Mormon-L's archives. And I also remember on more than one occasion writing exactly, I'm with John on this one, although I can't remember offhand what the issues were at the time. And I wasn't the only one -- there were other TBM's there, too. Some didn't stick around very long, mind you. I'm not on Mormon-L anymore in any case; I cut back a lot of my Internet activity for various reasons, but mostly because of my health. *so what does a no contact home teacher do? He sends out monthly newsletters, with a bit of eye-catching news to get their interest (say, like about Burton Cummings) and adds a spiritual message (my last one was from a book by Sis. Ozaki). John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday School and seminary classes every fourth year. This four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by Church members in their personal and family study. We need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get a man nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book. (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
You've said it much more coherently and succinctly than I did. Thanks. As I've explained in a separate post to Stephen, it depends on what you mean by natural law. There are, I think, two connotations, one an earthly (corruptible) sense and one an eternal (incorruptible) sense, but not magic -- that's Protestantism, as you rightly point out. John W. Redelfs wrote: It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him. They are uncreate. And it was by obedience to these laws that he because God. Remember, he was once a mortal man. The idea that he made all the laws included those by which he progressed to become a God is a Protestant idea. It is akin to creating something from nothing, which of course is impossible even for God. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
We'll give you enough time for you and JWR to become gods, but no longer. We're an impatient bunch, ya know... George Cobabe wrote: Give me some time John and I think I can demonstrate that this is not necessarily so. George - Original Message - From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 7:23 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law Jim Cobabe favored us with: I think it is not doctrinal to assert that Heavenly Father is subject to natural law in the same sense that we are. To put it thus incorrectly reverses the attribution of cause. God decreed the laws of the universe, and sustains them by the word of His power--the laws are subordinate to Him. They are becase He is. He acts in a manner consistent with the laws of His own decree, not because He is subject to natural law, but because natural laws are _His_ laws. It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him. They are uncreate. And it was by obedience to these laws that he because God. Remember, he was once a mortal man. The idea that he made all the laws included those by which he progressed to become a God is a Protestant idea. It is akin to creating something from nothing, which of course is impossible even for God. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest --Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Marc - it seems the question is not he definition of natural law, except as it involves who created that law. The question is: Did God, i.e. our God, create the natural law for his creation or did He just transpose it from the overall eternal concept of Natural Law. Is every universe, form every God - the same or can they vary? I, of course, do not know the answer but I believe that the law of our universe was created by our Father. This does not mean that He did not progress from a universe that had the same, nor different, natural laws. When we are told that God created all in the universe - I believe it. George - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 7:37 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21 I think we just need to be careful how we're using the terms. If I may be a bit presumptuous, there is a sense in which I would agree with you, if you're using the term the way Kent P. Jackson does: [studies in Scripture, vol. 7:1] The Creation There is a tendency for people in our generation to discount the special creation account of the origin of our heaven and earth as related in the Bible. The modern trend is to accept a naturalistic or mechanistic view of the origin of our solar system, including our earth and all things upon it. fn Such a view proposes that these things came into existence by chance-by the strict operation of natural law rather than by God's purposes being fulfilled as a result of his wisdom and power. This mechanistic view looks upon natural law as eternal or self-existent and as determining absolutely what happens to physical matter over a given time. There is no allowance for a divine or supernatural power of any kind over physical matter. fn Such a view leaves no room for a God who has all knowledge and who thinks and plans (no divine purpose in the universe); fn for a sovereign God who is all powerful fn and who is the author of natural law (a God who has control or power directly over physical matter); fn or for miracles or divine intervention (God cannot change or revoke natural law). fn This mechanistic view also eliminates the spiritual realm in the universe wherein spirit matter (with intelligence) can influence or control physical or other spirit matter. This assumes that the spirit matter does not exist; fn people, animals, and plants do not have spirits; fn there is no such thing as a God with a spirit; fn and there is no influence whatsoever from God to the spirits of people fn or to anything else in the universe. fn Obviously this view also eliminates revelation, so there can be no such thing as commandments from God. Such a view relegates man (and other living creatures) to a position of being mere physical machines with no agency or freedom to act by themselves. fn They can only be acted upon, since all actions or events are determined completely by preceding physical events and subsequent operation of natural law. But that's not the way I was using the term, and I disagree with his choice of several words, including supernatural. In any case, I am using it the way Joseph Fielding Smith did, e.g., in Man: His Origin and Destiny (484): A miracle is not, as many believe, the setting aside or overruling natural laws. Every miracle performed in Biblical days or now, is done on natural principles and in obedience to natural law. The healing of the sick, the raising of the dead, giving eyesight to the blind, whatever it may be that is done by the power of God, is in accordance with natural law. Because we do not understand how it is done, does not argue for the impossibility of it. Our Father in heaven knows many laws that are hidden from us. And the way James E. Talmage did in Jesus the Christ (81): That Child to be born of Mary was begotten of Elohim, the Eternal Father, not in violation of natural law but in accordance with a higher manifestation thereof; and, the offspring from that association of supreme sanctity, celestial Sireship, and pure though mortal maternity, was of right to be called the 'Son of the Highest.' The problem arises out of the word natural, and is a limitation of our language. By natural are we referring to the corruptible telestial world, or are we referring simply to the fact that there are higher laws which are natural but which operate in *their* realms, and which we by their and our very nature cannot comprehend? I'm using the term in its latter connotation. Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Marc- We LDS do *not* believe God is omnipotent in the sense the Romans used this term -- we believe he's subject to natural law, Perhaps you believe so. I don't. God's word defines natural law. He is the master, not the subject. That is why he is called the Lawgiver. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Thanks for the additional insight. Looks like I was a bit out-of-date -- I was stretching back to my bonehead philosophy class in university. But there must be some kind of term for a belief in an *im*personal higher power. Any philosophers on the list? John W. Redelfs wrote: This isn't quite right, Marc. I used to be a Deist, and among Deists no such distinctions are made between a personal and impersonal God. A Deist was one who believed only what all religions (of the day) held in common, ie. 1) a supreme being, 2) a system of punishments and rewards after death, etc. Here is a passage from the current online Britannica* that will set you straight: It is my understanding that most of our Founders were Deists. Knowing as they did that the religions then extant were the irrational philosophies of men, they tried to strip away all the incrustations of sectarianism and return to the most fundamental basics common to all. No wonder they joined the Church when they got a chance. No wonder I did. And this part I would agree with without hesitation. In Jefferson's numerous letters on the matter, including his famous (or infamous, depending on your pov) letter regarding the curtain between church and state, it seems like he was acting as much out of disgust with existing religions as anything, but he did write some things which indicated he did not believe Jesus Christ was anything other than a very enlightened teacher. Unfortunately, it's like quoting dead prophets: without their presence to defend or explain themselves, we can but try to interpret them, and we know what that leads to. *totally off-topic, but this reminds me. I've been tempted to pay for a subscription to Britannica online (I remember you mentioning it was one of the few sites you felt were worth paying for). Well it turns out that if we order our 2002 tax software, QuickTax, from Intuit this month, we get a free Britannica online CD-ROM set/subscription. I emailed that form back pretty quickly! Oh, and ObLocalBoosterism: Intuit's Canadian operations are HQ'd here in Edmonton for various reasons, but the people in Santa Clara wanted them to expand, to take over the marketing and development of QuickTax/Quicken for the Pacific Rim and parts of South America, as well as establish a tech support call centre to cover all of North America, but they wanted them to move from Edmonton to a more geographically sensible location. The local leadership didn't want to move so came to us (when I was a trade officer for our provincial ministry of Innovation Science) for help. I helped, together with my Edmonton city counterpart, put together a package showing that Edmonton was the most cost-effective place for them to locate *all* their operations, including the Santa Clara one. Well, of course, they didn't go quite that far, but I took a lot of pride when they opened their new building in SE Edmonton a few years ago which quintupled their previous space. So if you ever call tech support for Intuit, tell the guy or gal on the other end of the line, How 'boot them Oilers, eh?! And Mark and I know a story about his old boss, Glenn, but I can never tell it publicly ;-) [seriously, part of the law here, which is consistent with how civil servants work in commonwealth countries is that according to Section 19 of the Alberta Public Service Act, anything that's said to me by a private company in confidence is to be held in confidence just as if I had signed a NDA with them. I know lots of stuff about Microsoft, too -- mostly good, incidentally -- but could never talk about it publicly. The only reason I can talk about Intuit is because the local president, who is also now the VP International for all of Intuit, publicly thanked the two of us for our help when they had the ribbon-cutting, so I'm simply repeating what's already on the public record] Boy, that was a rambling, post, eh? When your wife treats you to good pizza it puts a feller in a good mood. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
[ZION] LDS Ex-Utah Representative Found Dead in Tel Aviv
[Thanks to Scott Gordon at FAIR for bringing this to my attention] http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20021218_2241.html Ex-Utah Rep. Owens Found Dead in Tel Aviv Former Utah Rep. Wayne Owens Found Dead on Tel Aviv Beach; He Was 65 The Associated Press WASHINGTON Dec. 18th Wayne Owens, a former Utah congressman and longtime advocate for Middle East peace, was found dead Wednesday in Israel, according to the State Department. He was 65. Owens, a Democrat, served four terms in Congress and helped launch the Center for Middle East Peace and Economic Cooperation, a Washington-based group dedicated to fostering peace in the troubled region. His body was found on a beach in Tel Aviv at about 9 p.m. local time Wednesday, according to Stuart Patt, spokesman for the State Department's Consular Affairs Bureau. He apparently died of natural causes, Patt said. Owens was on business in the region. A spokesman for the family could not immediately be reached. What Wayne Owens did was change people's lives. He did it in so many ways. He was dedicated to public service, said University of Utah political science professor Tim Chambless, who interned for Owens in the spring of 1973 and later worked on his campaign. He changed my life. It's a great loss. In Congress, Owens, a native of Panguitch, Utah, fought to protect more than 5 million acres of Utah wilderness, sponsored legislation to compensate those sickened by radioactive fallout from nuclear weapons tests in Nevada, and used his seat on the House Foreign Affairs Committee to advocate for peace in the Middle East. He was first elected in 1972 and served as a member of the House Judiciary Committee where he voted to impeach President Nixon and was part of a group of freshman Democrats who forced a vote to end the Vietnam War. He lost a bid for Senate in 1974 to Republican Jake Garn and made an unsuccessful bid for governor in 1984. In 1986, he regained Utah's 2nd District seat, which he held until 1992, when he again ran for Senate, losing to Republican Bob Bennett. Owens helped launch the Center for Middle East Peace and Economic Cooperation in 1989 and served as its president, spending much of the last decade meeting with leaders in the region trying to foster peace through economic development. Utah Rep. Jim Matheson said he was very shocked to hear of Owens' death. Matheson, who ran Owens' campaign for governor in 1984, said Owens served as a political mentor to his whole family. I think that's true for a lot of people in public service, Matheson said. The first memory I have of a campaign in Utah was when he walked the state in 1972. He brought a certain energy and enthusiasm to politics. Starting in 1965, Owens worked as a staffer for Utah Sen. Frank Moss and Massachusetts Sen. Edward Kennedy. He was the Rocky Mountain coordinator for Robert Kennedy's 1968 presidential bid. He spent six years as a full-time missionary for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. He is survived by his wife Marlene and five children. Funeral plans have yet to be announced. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
John W. Redelfs wrote: Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Then, it must follow as night follows day that everyone on this list is lily white, since if any of us had any power we wouldn't have the time to spend on this email list! Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
This is all fine and dandy, Marc, but you sidestepped my question. Do you drink beer? (And, while I'm at it, did you play Homer on the series?) :-) Jon - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 7:23 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved? More to the point, he's a *Hindu* Indian, as you can tell both from his name and from the way his wife dresses (there was an episode when his family and the Simpsons had dinner together). Pakistan and Bangladesh were both intended to be part of India when India was given its independence, but Ali Jamnah [sp from memory], who would later become the first president of Pakistan, was afraid that Nehru would not be able to guarantee Muslim rights in the proposed secular state and insisted on a separate Muslim state. The result was thousands of deaths as many Moslems left India and practically all the Hindus left Pakistan. And eventually, of course, the East Bengali Moslems separated and formed yet a third country, Bangladesh. India has pretty well kept to its secularism (despite the rise of the BHP) and ironically remains the world's largest Muslim country (in terms of raw population numbers), whereas Pakistan, and to a lesser extent, Bangladesh, have become hotbeds of Islamic extremism, and even Pakistan's historical Christian communities (part of a community which claims to date from the Apostle Thomas's time) have come under quite a bit of persecution. India is an incredibly complex and heterogenous country. Jon Spencer wrote: Jim Cobabe wrote: Jon Spencer wrote: --- I have come to the conclusion that Marc was cheated by the Pakistani owner of a convenience store in his neck of the woods! :-) --- Sounds like a Simpsons episode. Actually, teh convenience store owner in the Simpsons is an Indian, but they sort of look alike, so what's the difference? Opps! Now I guess I have to pull a Lott. I wonder if I can get in IET (Indian Entertainment TV). Come to think of it, perhaps we could draw some interesting and instructive parallels between Homer and his Canadian counterpart-apparent. :-0 Homer drinks beer, so he could never be a Bishop. At least I thikn so. Marc, you don't drink beer, do you? :-) Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on - Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law
John W. Redelfs wrote: --- The idea that he made all the laws included those by which he progressed to become a God is a Protestant idea. It is akin to creating something from nothing, which of course is impossible even for God. --- One of the problems we encounter in discussing such ideas is the inertia of a massive Catholic and Protestant lexicon, which intrudes everywhere with false ideas and distortions of the truth. The omni words are overburdened in this sense, and it would probably simplify things if we just abandoned them and coined our own ideosyncratic terms with our own unique definitions. Joseph Smith's teachings clearly indicate that our spirits were coeternal with God, from before the beginning of time, but that God instituted the laws in the premortal world which constitute for us the plan of salvation. These are the natural laws to which I make reference. God himself, the Prophet says, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, powers, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits. (Teachings, p. 354.) Thus the plan of salvation (of redemption, and of exaltation) comprises all of the laws, ordinances, principles, and doctrines by conformity to which the spirit offspring of God have power to progress to the high state of exaltation enjoyed by the Father. (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed. [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966], 575.) He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever. And again, verily I say unto you, he hath given a law unto all things, by which they move in their times and their seasons;(DC 88:41-42) --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
George Cobabe wrote: Marc - it seems the question is not he definition of natural law, except as it involves who created that law. The question is: Did God, i.e. our God, create the natural law for his creation or did He just transpose it from the overall eternal concept of Natural Law. Is every universe, form every God - the same or can they vary? I, of course, do not know the answer but I believe that the law of our universe was created by our Father. I agree. In this sense I take the term natural law to mean a telestial law, a law of corruptness as Paul would say. This does not mean that He did not progress from a universe that had the same, nor different, natural laws. And that's the second way to use the term, the way I think John and I are, as another way of saying there's no such thing as magic. When we are told that God created all in the universe - I believe it. Then the discussion might be more profitable if we separated our existing universe fromwell, whatever it is that transcends it. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
God does what his Father did before him... Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
-Marc- The problem arises out of the word natural, and is a limitation of our language. By natural are we referring to the corruptible telestial world, or are we referring simply to the fact that there are higher laws which are natural but which operate in *their* realms, and which we by their and our very nature cannot comprehend? I'm using the term in its latter connotation. I don't disagree with this. My hesitation comes in labelling God as something other than omnipotent, even in saying that God isn't omnipotent in the sense the [Roman Catholics] believed. The fact that other religions don't understand the meaning of words like omnipotent does not negate the fact that God is truly all-powerful, far, far beyond any remote possibility that we have to imagine it. No, God can't do undoable things, like save people in their sins, or make a thing simultaneously exist and not exist. But these things are ultimately tautologically false; that is, they defy their own definition. I would be surprised if any man or woman can name something that God cannot do, whether because of the limitations of natural law or anything else, that doesn't fall into this class of false-by-definition. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law
-John- It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him. They are uncreate. And it was by obedience to these laws that he because God. My understanding follows Jim's quotation of Joseph Smith's teachings and of the scriptures; that God *instituted laws* among us. Whether those laws were pre-existent or not seems of little import. Remember, Marc's comment was that God is subject to 'natural law'. This is demonstrably untrue; God is above nature, has created nature, and has instituted her laws. Physicists now postulate that our universe was born perhaps 13 billion years ago, and that the laws of physics that we observe came into being at that point. If this is the case, then since we Latter-day Saints consider God to have been the creator of this universe, we could certainly imagine that he might have chosen whatever other set of physical laws to exist instead. We might also imagine that, as creator of the universe, he exists in such a state as to be able to effect whatever changes in it that he sees fit -- that is, he is above the universe, not subject to it. He could, for example, travel faster than light, an event that doesn't even have a well-defined meaning to us. I don't pretend the above is LDS doctrine. Rather, it is compatible with LDS doctrine, and is the closest I can come to reconciling doctrinal truth with scientific understanding. In any case, I feel quite sure that God is the Lawgiver, the creator of the universe, the God of nature, and thus to claim that he is subject to 'natural law' is incorrect. The idea that he made all the laws included those by which he progressed to become a God is a Protestant idea. Hardly. Protestantism rejects as blasphemous the very idea that God pregressed to become a God, so they certainly have no opinion on whether he created the laws that led to that exaltation! Besides, the laws governing God's exaltation are not the point under discussion; rather, we're talking about natural law and whether God is subject to it. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
I would be surprised if any man or woman can name something that God cannot do, whether because of the limitations of natural law or anything else, that doesn't fall into this class of false-by-definition. Sorry for the weenie-speak. Let me try again: I disbelieve that any man or woman can -- and in fact defy anyone to -- name something that God cannot do, whether because of the limitations of natural law or anything else, that doesn't fall into this class of false-by-definition. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Natural Law
-George- Much of what is quoted by Sis Black is from a paper by LaMar Garrard, God, Natural Law, and the Doctrine and Covenants Brother Garrard may well have been my wife's and my favorite teacher at BYU, even though we only ever had him for one class. When he came in the first day, I thought he was the goofiest-looking teacher I had ever seen. By the end of the term, I thought his face reflected the countenance of Jesus Christ. In fact, it was from him that I most forcefully learned that God is the Lawgiver, the very point we're discussing now. He's also the teacher who effectively pointed out that we do indeed believe in salvation by grace, despite what many Latter-day Saints mistakenly believe and even teach. I also took a genealogy course from Sister Black, which I enjoyed quite a bit. I worked harder in that class than in any other religion class I ever took. I got very good marks all the way through on tests and projects, but only pulled a 'B' on the final. My course grade: B+. I've never quite forgiven her for that... (Not that I'd normally be unhappy with a B+ in a tough course, but it's the only religion class I ever took that I got less than an 'A' in, and I honestly thought I'd earned an 'A'. Ah, well. Cue the violins. At least I know how to spell carob-beans.) Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
He cannot break the laws that He has agreed to follow. He cannot break His promises to his children. If he did so he would cease to be God. Note that both examples are self limiting, decisions that He has to make and agree to. George - Original Message - From: Stephen Beecroft [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:32 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21 I would be surprised if any man or woman can name something that God cannot do, whether because of the limitations of natural law or anything else, that doesn't fall into this class of false-by-definition. Sorry for the weenie-speak. Let me try again: I disbelieve that any man or woman can -- and in fact defy anyone to -- name something that God cannot do, whether because of the limitations of natural law or anything else, that doesn't fall into this class of false-by-definition. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
Stephen - apparently you are not the only one who admires him as I found an inordinate amount of references to his publication on the subject of natural law. He was quoted by all sorts of people. Thanks for reading the long post I sent. George - Original Message - From: Stephen Beecroft [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:39 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Natural Law -George- Much of what is quoted by Sis Black is from a paper by LaMar Garrard, God, Natural Law, and the Doctrine and Covenants Brother Garrard may well have been my wife's and my favorite teacher at BYU, even though we only ever had him for one class. When he came in the first day, I thought he was the goofiest-looking teacher I had ever seen. By the end of the term, I thought his face reflected the countenance of Jesus Christ. In fact, it was from him that I most forcefully learned that God is the Lawgiver, the very point we're discussing now. He's also the teacher who effectively pointed out that we do indeed believe in salvation by grace, despite what many Latter-day Saints mistakenly believe and even teach. I also took a genealogy course from Sister Black, which I enjoyed quite a bit. I worked harder in that class than in any other religion class I ever took. I got very good marks all the way through on tests and projects, but only pulled a 'B' on the final. My course grade: B+. I've never quite forgiven her for that... (Not that I'd normally be unhappy with a B+ in a tough course, but it's the only religion class I ever took that I got less than an 'A' in, and I honestly thought I'd earned an 'A'. Ah, well. Cue the violins. At least I know how to spell carob-beans.) Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Dr Red Green was right all along
Duct tape really is good for you...
http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id={C5BC794A-4AC7-4177-93A3-31E9EA95D88E}
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.
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[ZION] Going, Going, Gone
A rare column by Canada's funniest conservative [tm] which is deadpan
serious and with which I agree (that combination being what's rare, I
mean), on Henry Kissinger, Cardinal Law, and Trent Lott
http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id={F0F3B60D-1024-4F3C-8E75-9F9E177632CD}
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.
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[ZION] Iraq
Am I For or Against War in Iraq? Somebody Please Persuade Me, pleads Globe and Mail columnist and Generation-X'er Doug Saunders, writing from CFB Kingston (where my son has taken sigint training, incidentally, and near where he's currently attending university): http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/GIS.Servlets.HTMLTemplate?current_row=3tf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.htmlcf=tgam/search/tgam/SearchFullStory.cfgconfigFileLoc=tgam/configencoded_keywords=am+i+for+or+against+war+in+iraqoption=start_row=3start_row_offset1=num_rows=1search_results_start=1query=am+i+for+or+against+war+in+iraq -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
I quoted you the exact wording that made my point. I do not need to spin anything. Here it is again, since you keep deleting it in your responses, so please either do me the courtesy of addressing the issue, or admit either apathy (which is fine if you're tired of discussing it) or error: === Are you saying that the following doesn't say the US saw it first? The U.S. government has made copies of the Iraqi weapons declaration and distributed them to the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council and other council members with expertise to assess the declaration for proliferation-sensitive information, State Department deputy spokesman Philip Reeker said at the daily media briefing in Washington December 10. Reeker said once such information has been deleted, a working document will be made available to other members of the council as soon as possible. And again, in the QA session: Question: There have been some grumblings on the sideline about Washington taking the first set of documents and whisking them down here to copy them off. Have you received any messages like that from Permanent 5 members or other Security Council members? Mr. Reeker: No. And, in fact, all Permanent 5 members have their copies, as I think we talked about yesterday. As I mentioned, based on the Council president's decision -- which was an appropriate one and consistent with the resolution -- we assisted in ensuring the safeguards against release, transmission of proliferation-sensitive information, making sure that that was not jeopardized. So we did the copying of this. We got the copies to all of those members with that expertise and all together we will be assessing the full document to see about proliferation-sensitive information so that then we can make available to other members of the Council a working document as soon as possible. Now tell me: how is it possible to do copying for others when you don't have the document yourself to begin with? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marc Schindler: That was not my point at all. Please reread it. ... You are not criticizing what I wrote, but how you *read* it. ___ I'm not criticizing anything. You are ignoring my point and I am ignoring your bait. Spin on. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
George Cobabe wrote: --- Then the discussion might be more profitable if we separated our existing universe fromwell, whatever it is that transcends it. We must do so to even begin to understand, or for that matter argue over, such matters. It is the only thing that we are concerned with except as understanding the example of the Father in being exalted from a mortal man. --- I personally find Mormon doctrine and philosophy to be singularly pragmatic in this respect. Very few Mormon intellectuals have sequestered themselves in a Tibetan monastery to discover the meaning of the universe by contemplating the lint in their navel for five decades. We learn about the truths of life by living them and in engaging the world. We cannot concern ourselves with things outside the sphere of knowable, simply because we don't have the luxury of time. There are far too many pressing imperatives for me to attend, to attach any priority to lengthy philosophizing about other universes or alternative realities. I'm keeping pretty busy just watching the trail out ahead. For today, I worship my Heavenly Father in this life, give thanks for His great plan of salvation, and the mercy extended to me in the atonement of Jesus Christ. I'm pretty clear on these particulars, and adding others day by day, as I can manage. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Iraq
You are probably wrong. War is not imminent because we are not ready. We will be in about one month. Also, I believe that the statements Bush makes are directed at Saddam primarily, and not at the US populace. I also believe that the US is trying very hard to get a rebellion going in Iraq, although I personally hold out little hope of that happening. I do not believe that there will be any backing down. IMNSHO, Bush honestly believes that Saddam is a major threat to not only the US, bat also to Canada (:-) and the rest of our allies. Saddam will go. And as hard as it is to imagine, I guess I, too, could be wrong. Jon - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: zion-l [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 6:20 PM Subject: [ZION] Iraq I can't say I told you so yet but Bush has announced today that despite the omissions in the report on WMD delivered by Iraq to the UN (and only today being given to the non-permanent members of the Security Council, incidentally), war is not imminent. I've been of the opinion since this issue arose that there won't be a war in Iraq, that the situation is at least as much about domestic US politics as it is with anything actually going on in Iraq and that we'd see a gradual backing down once the mid-term elections were past. I could be wrong -- I guess we'll see. http://my.netscape.com/corewidgets/news/story.psp?cat=51180id=2002121817270 00163465 -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. - Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Microsoft interview questions
OK. How do you pronounce the word iron? Do you say I earn or do you say I Ron or what? Jon - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:45 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Microsoft interview questions There is a carob bean, actually, and I know it's grown in tropical climates, but that's about all I know about it. I'm not sure what they do with it, except perhaps use its oil (like canola, linseed or safflower). This reminds me of an incident that happened when JWR was at our house. I said the word amalgam but pronounced it AM-al-gam. John wanted to know if that was a Canadian pronunciation, as he'd always said ah-MAL-gam. And he was right -- I had put the em-PHAS-is on the wrong syl-LAB-le. I guess I just hadn't heard the word spoken often enough for its pronunciation to sink in. There are a lot of words like that that I've encountered while reading, that I'd be too embarrassed to say out loud for fear I'd be mangling the pronunciation -- the sure sign of an over-dilettantish but sincere amateur ;-) ...I just did a google search and found an FAO publication which says it's also known as the locust bean, and its gum is apparently used as a laxative. Now you know I couldn't have just made that one up! Ya learn something knew every day... Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Marc- No wonder Microsoft's spellchecker is so lousy ;-) (carabiners, from a German word for carbine hook. Ah. I had never seen/heard the term, and the guy (Russian) called/spelled them carob-beaners. I wondered how that term had come about. What's a carob bean, anyway? But I had nothing to do with Microsoft's spell-checker. Otherwise, it wouldn't suggest Bereft every time I write my name. IIRC, aren't Italy's alpine police known as carabinieri?) Yes, the special forces guys who carry machine guns. Also known as carob-beaners. Ah, so maybe carob is the north Italian word (what's that funny Rhaeto-Romanish dialect they speak up in some of the valleys in the Alps near the Swiss border, Ladino or something like that?) for head. They bop people on the carobs with their machine guns. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. - Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Natural Law
They are all duly queued, waiting merely to be cued... Stephen Beecroft wrote: Ah, well. Cue the violins. At least I know how to spell carob-beans.) -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
I understand that we would be wary of talking about God in any limiting way. But if you will permit me a bit of spin latitude on this, you can always turn the question around and say that it was those bad bad Catholics who ruined theology with their martial language, fit only to order troops and civil servants around. But that's the problem with words: once they've been used a certain way it sticks, and all of its baggage comes with it, like when your mother-in-law comes to visit. ;-) (E.g., will we ever admit to being gay and dapper gentlemen again?) Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Marc- The problem arises out of the word natural, and is a limitation of our language. By natural are we referring to the corruptible telestial world, or are we referring simply to the fact that there are higher laws which are natural but which operate in *their* realms, and which we by their and our very nature cannot comprehend? I'm using the term in its latter connotation. I don't disagree with this. My hesitation comes in labelling God as something other than omnipotent, even in saying that God isn't omnipotent in the sense the [Roman Catholics] believed. The fact that other religions don't understand the meaning of words like omnipotent does not negate the fact that God is truly all-powerful, far, far beyond any remote possibility that we have to imagine it. No, God can't do undoable things, like save people in their sins, or make a thing simultaneously exist and not exist. But these things are ultimately tautologically false; that is, they defy their own definition. I would be surprised if any man or woman can name something that God cannot do, whether because of the limitations of natural law or anything else, that doesn't fall into this class of false-by-definition. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Stephen Beecroft wrote: -John- It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him. They are uncreate. And it was by obedience to these laws that he because God. My understanding follows Jim's quotation of Joseph Smith's teachings and of the scriptures; that God *instituted laws* among us. Whether those laws were pre-existent or not seems of little import. Remember, Marc's comment was that God is subject to 'natural law'. This is demonstrably untrue; God is above nature, has created nature, and has instituted her laws. It's not demonstrably untrue; I went on to explain that the term had two meanings, and quoted James E. Talmage and Joseph Fielding Smith to illustrate. He could, for example, travel faster than light, an event that doesn't even have a well-defined meaning to us. That's my point about telestial law. As Pres. Smith said, he has access to laws we don't understand. But that doesn't make them any less laws. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Jim, as one hammer to another, you have hit the nail right on the head: these words have baggage that we have to be wary of. I don't think any of us here are really disagreeing with each other in substance (to use another word full of ancient baggage), but only in semantics. Jim Cobabe wrote: John W. Redelfs wrote: --- The idea that he made all the laws included those by which he progressed to become a God is a Protestant idea. It is akin to creating something from nothing, which of course is impossible even for God. --- One of the problems we encounter in discussing such ideas is the inertia of a massive Catholic and Protestant lexicon, which intrudes everywhere with false ideas and distortions of the truth. The omni words are overburdened in this sense, and it would probably simplify things if we just abandoned them and coined our own ideosyncratic terms with our own unique definitions. Joseph Smith's teachings clearly indicate that our spirits were coeternal with God, from before the beginning of time, but that God instituted the laws in the premortal world which constitute for us the plan of salvation. These are the natural laws to which I make reference. God himself, the Prophet says, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, powers, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits. (Teachings, p. 354.) Thus the plan of salvation (of redemption, and of exaltation) comprises all of the laws, ordinances, principles, and doctrines by conformity to which the spirit offspring of God have power to progress to the high state of exaltation enjoyed by the Father. (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 2d ed. [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1966], 575.) He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever. And again, verily I say unto you, he hath given a law unto all things, by which they move in their times and their seasons;(DC 88:41-42) --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Carob beans
Carob is a unique substance that has an appearance similar to cocoa. It comes from the Ceratonia siliqua, an evergreen tree native to the Eastern Mediterranean area. This relatively wild tree, which grows up to 50 feet tall, bears fruit at the age of six to eight years with a greater abundance of fruit every other year. The average annual yield per tree is 200-250 lbs. of fruit. Carob, or St. John's Bread, as it is commonly known, is a large (4-12 inch long) dried, bean-like pod. Pods are harvested from September to November. Inside the carob pods are tiny beans which are used to make locust bean gum, a stabilizer and thickener in foods. The carob pods themselves are roasted and ground into carob powder. Carob powder can be used to replace cocoa at levels from 25-50%. While carob performs like cocoa, it differs in sugar and fat content. Cocoa may contain up to 23% fat and 5% sugar while carob has .7% fat and a natural sugar content of 42-48%. Nutritionally, carob has none of the allergy-producing antibodies or the caffeine stimulant theobromine found in the cocoa bean. Carob contains as much vitamin B1 as asparagus or strawberries, the same amount of niacin as lima beans, lentils or peas and more vitamin A than eggplant, asparagus and beets. It is also high in vitamin B2, calcium, magnesium and iron. In addition to being a delicious and healthful foodstuff, carob powder is used as a tobacco flavoring and in the production of some pharmaceuticals. Matthew 3:1-6 (KJV) In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
I can agree that God is subject to 'natural law, but only in the sense that He has created those laws and needs to maintain the integrity to obey the same rules that He has created. If He did not honor His word or His law He would cease to be God. George - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 10:19 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law Stephen Beecroft wrote: -John- It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which Heavenly Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him. They are uncreate. And it was by obedience to these laws that he because God. My understanding follows Jim's quotation of Joseph Smith's teachings and of the scriptures; that God *instituted laws* among us. Whether those laws were pre-existent or not seems of little import. Remember, Marc's comment was that God is subject to 'natural law'. This is demonstrably untrue; God is above nature, has created nature, and has instituted her laws. It's not demonstrably untrue; I went on to explain that the term had two meanings, and quoted James E. Talmage and Joseph Fielding Smith to illustrate. He could, for example, travel faster than light, an event that doesn't even have a well-defined meaning to us. That's my point about telestial law. As Pres. Smith said, he has access to laws we don't understand. But that doesn't make them any less laws. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. - Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Going, Going, Gone
story no longer available - if you want us to read it you almost need to
copy and paste.
George
- Original Message -
From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: zion-l [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:55 PM
Subject: [ZION] Going, Going, Gone
A rare column by Canada's funniest conservative [tm] which is deadpan
serious and with which I agree (that combination being what's rare, I
mean), on Henry Kissinger, Cardinal Law, and Trent Lott
http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id={F0F3B60D-1024-4F3C-8E75-9F9E
177632CD}
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see than weigh. - Lord Chesterfield
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.
//
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RE: [ZION] Natural Law
Another interesting reference to this question-- God is the author of law, not its creation or its servant. All light and all law emanate from him (see DC 88:13). Indeed, all kingdoms have a law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom. And unto every kingdom is given a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions (DC 88:36-38). Of God the revelation states, He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever (DC 88:41). Joseph Smith asked, Can we suppose that He [God] has a kingdom without laws? Or do we believe that it is composed of an innumerable company of beings who are entirely beyond all law? Consequently have need of nothing to govern or regulate them? Would not such ideas be a reproach to our Great Parent, and at variance with His glorious intelligence? Would it not be asserting that man had found out a secret beyond Deity? That he had learned that it was good to have laws, while God after existing from eternity and having power to create man, had not found out that it was proper to have laws for His government? (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 55). God, Joseph Smith taught, has made certain decrees which are fixed and immovable; for instance, God set the sun, the moon, and the stars in the heavens, and gave them their laws, conditions and bounds, which they cannot pass, except by His commandments; they all move in perfect harmony in their sphere and order, and are as lights, wonders and signs unto us. The sea also has its bounds which it cannot pass. God has set many signs on the earth, as well as in the heavens; for instance, the oak of the forest, the fruit of the tree, the herb of the field, all bear a sign that seed hath been planted there; for it is a decree of the Lord that every tree, plant, and herb bearing seed should bring forth of its kind, and cannot come forth after any other law or principle (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 197-98). God is not a scientist. He does not harness law and then use it to bless and govern his creations. God is the author and source of all law. Were this not the case, the powers of evil could seek his overthrow through the discovery of unknown laws. We would live in endless peril. Our prayers would then be for God, not to him, and scientists rather than prophets would hold the keys of salvation. True it is that God was once a man obtaining his exalted status by obedience to the laws of his own eternal Father, but upon obtaining that station he becomes the source of light and law to all that he creates. Following this same pattern, the resurrected Christ said to the Nephites, I am the law (3 Ne. 15:9). (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Answers: Straightforward Answers to Tough Gospel Questions [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1998], 167.) --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Subject to natural law
John, I'm honestly not trying to promote Protestant doctrine. But there are obviously some issues here that merit further consideration. I am sure you realize that we are not necessarily covering new ground in any of our discussions on this list. I have little doubt that the people of this world have been striving to learn the true nature of Heavenly Father since Adam was expelled from the Garden. There is much to learn. To complete the task requires an eternity on the job. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Iraq
Jon Spencer wrote: You are probably wrong. War is not imminent because we are not ready. We will be in about one month. So why did two complete naval battle groups start sailing *out of* the Middle East earlier this week? Actually, this is an area where my prognostication has a weak point, because you're right in principle; the war could be delayed until the US feels it's ready. Any prognostication is at best an educated guess, and if I'm wrong, well, it won't be the first time I've had to eat lumpy porridge ;-) Also, I believe that the statements Bush makes are directed at Saddam primarily, and not at the US populace. I also believe that the US is trying very hard to get a rebellion going in Iraq, although I personally hold out little hope of that happening. Why? Saddam isn't on Florida's voter list, is he? /snidely-whiplashism I do not believe that there will be any backing down. IMNSHO, Bush honestly believes that Saddam is a major threat to not only the US, bat also to Canada (:-) and the rest of our allies. Saddam will go. And as hard as it is to imagine, I guess I, too, could be wrong. Jon At least we're both covering our cyber-rear ends, so to speak... -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Jim Cobabe wrote: I'm pretty clear on these particulars, and adding others day by day, as I can manage. One can't really ask for anything more. Good thing this is all good, clean fun, eh? -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Going, Going, Gone
Hmm. I was able to get at it. But just in case, I've cut-and-paste it at the end
of this post. Formatting may be a bit out of whack, but at least you'll have the
text.
George Cobabe wrote:
story no longer available - if you want us to read it you almost need to
copy and paste.
George
- Original Message -
From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: zion-l [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:55 PM
Subject: [ZION] Going, Going, Gone
A rare column by Canada's funniest conservative [tm] which is deadpan
serious and with which I agree (that combination being what's rare, I
mean), on Henry Kissinger, Cardinal Law, and Trent Lott
http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id={F0F3B60D-1024-4F3C-8E75-9F9E
177632CD}
Thursday » December 19 » 2002
Kissinger, Law, Lott: gone, gone, going
Mark Steyn
National Post
Monday, December 16, 2002
Friday was an odd day in America. It began with an announcement that there would
be a late afternoon press
conference by Trent Lott, the Senate Majority Leader under fire for waxing
nostalgic about Strom Thurmond's
segregationist candidacy in the 1948 Presidential election. Initially, everyone
assumed he'd be resigning. But he
didn't. Instead, all kinds of other folks did. Henry Kissinger resigned as
chairman of the panel looking into what
really happened on September 11th, and Bernard Cardinal Law resigned as
Archbishop of Boston, the Catholic
archdiocese most deeply mired in the priestly sex abuse pandemic. Dr. Kissinger's
resignation was highly
premature, Cardinal Law's extremely belated and the timing of Senator Lott's is
still being worked out.
Dr. Strangelove's decision to bail has deprived the left of a lot of fun. Even
those of us who are partial to the old
boy like him precisely because he's sinister, ruthless, a master of realpolitik,
etc. These may be fine qualities but
not exactly the ones you're looking for on a commission meant to ferret out the
truth from murky spooks and lay
it before the people. Various lefties denounced Bush's appointment as deeply
cynical, but it seems to me
exactly the opposite. Putting Kissinger in charge of the 9/11 truth squad
virtually guaranteed no one would believ
e a word of what the final report said. Only someone indifferent to cynicism would
do that. Unless, of course,
Bush knows that what's likely to be uncovered is so damaging the only thing to do
is release the information via
a channel that guarantees your opponents will dismiss it out of hand as the one
scenario that can't possibly be
true. If so, it's deeply cynical mainly in the sense that it's deeply cynical
about public cynicism. And I don't
believe Bush is that cynical.
More likely, the appointment of Kissinger is confirmation of how Bush is almost
endearingly detached from the
world of spin, image, perception and their muddy cross-currents. This shouldn't
surprise us: Nobody preoccupied
with how he'll look would have picked Cheney as Veep, Rummy for Defence or John
Ashcroft as
Attorney-General. Whatever one feels about these appointments, they're not the
acts of a President who's the
creature of focus groups. In the end, Dr. Kissinger ankled because he didn't want
to reveal the client list of his
international consultancy. It supposedly includes many foreign governments. It
would be interesting to know
which ones. The good doctor has taken, for example, a more benign view of the
House of Saud than many of us
have. But he's back in private practice now and it's strictly his business.
Cardinal Law, by contrast, clung on month after month, long after it became clear
how much his stewardship had
damaged the Church. I cannot agree with Hugo Gurdon's conclusion that the
Archbishop's past actions were,
surely, due to shortcomings and mistakes rather than to malignancy or indifference
to the plight of children.
Indeed, I'm staggered Hugo could write such a sentence. The overwhelming weight of
evidence is that Law was
at the pinnacle of an elaborate racket set up to protect those he knew to be
compulsive child rapists. In 1997,
the Archbishop went out of the way to give fulsome thanks for the priestly care
and ministry to all of Paul
Shanley, a man Law had been aware for two decades was a serial sodomizer of those
in his care and who had
given public lectures on the benefits of man-boy love. It was Law who
re-assigned and re-re-assigned and
re-re-re-assigned the now defrocked Father Geoghan, in full knowledge of what had
happened in the last parish
and of what would certainly happen in the next. Shortcomings won't cover it, nor
will indifference: In essence,
Cardinal Law was a supplier of fresh meat to Geoghan and others. He is a
profoundly wicked man who presided
over an almost unfathomable swamp of institutional depravity.
None of the above means that I'm one of those who think priests labour under the
intolerable burden of
mandatory celibacy. Despite the best efforts of a highly sexualized culture,
plenty of people get
Re: [ZION] Carob beans
See, folks? You have a question, and there's always someone on the list who a) knows the answer; b) may not know, but knows how to find out; and even on occasion, c) hasn't a clue but can concoct an answer with such an air of authority that no one cares if it's right or not ;-) [Thanks, Jim] Jim Cobabe wrote: Carob is a unique substance that has an appearance similar to cocoa. It comes from the Ceratonia siliqua, an evergreen tree native to the Eastern Mediterranean area. This relatively wild tree, which grows up to 50 feet tall, bears fruit at the age of six to eight years with a greater abundance of fruit every other year. The average annual yield per tree is 200-250 lbs. of fruit. Carob, or St. John's Bread, as it is commonly known, is a large (4-12 inch long) dried, bean-like pod. Pods are harvested from September to November. Inside the carob pods are tiny beans which are used to make locust bean gum, a stabilizer and thickener in foods. The carob pods themselves are roasted and ground into carob powder. Carob powder can be used to replace cocoa at levels from 25-50%. While carob performs like cocoa, it differs in sugar and fat content. Cocoa may contain up to 23% fat and 5% sugar while carob has .7% fat and a natural sugar content of 42-48%. Nutritionally, carob has none of the allergy-producing antibodies or the caffeine stimulant theobromine found in the cocoa bean. Carob contains as much vitamin B1 as asparagus or strawberries, the same amount of niacin as lima beans, lentils or peas and more vitamin A than eggplant, asparagus and beets. It is also high in vitamin B2, calcium, magnesium and iron. In addition to being a delicious and healthful foodstuff, carob powder is used as a tobacco flavoring and in the production of some pharmaceuticals. Matthew 3:1-6 (KJV) In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey. Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan, And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many more people see than weigh. Lord Chesterfield Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
