larrettp;304795 Wrote:
Thanks but I managed to finally get in last night and I'm currently
modifying and testing. I'll let you know how it goes.Great, looking forward
to your findings.
--
egd
Internet forums: conclusive proof depth of gene pool is indeed variable,
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Optimisation of the SqueezeCenter database
--
From the outset, I was not happy with the overall performance of the
Squeezebox. Mine is used in conjunction with a ReadyNAS and I was
constantly told that this had limitations, which meant it was always
going
larrettp;305365 Wrote:
Optimisation of the SqueezeCenter database
This really isn't a topic suited for General. You might want to start
a new thread in the Developers forum.
Edit: I see you're crossposting. Maybe this thread should be locked
in General?
I then ran all of the sample
Apart from the fact that scanning and building palylists is considerably
faster (20-25% in the case of scanning), I have run EXPLAINS on the SQL
which shows far more efficient access paths to retrieve the same data.
In the case of the 'contributor' Index, the query was taken to a
completely
Thanks but I managed to finally get in last night and I'm currently
modifying and testing. I'll let you know how it goes.
--
larrettp
larrettp's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10191
View this
I can connect to the C drive on the ReadyNAS and I've removed the line
from my.conf - I looked for my.tt but couldn't find it (any idea which
directory?).
I restarted the NAS and I can still connect to 192.168.2.4 Port 22.
I am then using MySQL Administrator to try to connect to 192.168.2.4
I'm not sure whether the MySQL server port is different on the ReadyNAS
from the one that's packaged with the standard SqueezeCenter
installation, but what I'm sure about is that - once you can login as
root through SSH on your ReadyNAS - connecting to the MySQL server is
as simple as :
Code:
larrettp;304589 Wrote:
I can connect to the C drive on the ReadyNAS and I've removed the line
from my.conf - I looked for my.tt but couldn't find it (any idea which
directory?).
The my.tt is found in the MySQL directory under the SqueezeCenter main
installation directory, you are probably
Great googly-moogly! I'm in!!! On port 3036 with user slimserver and no
password.
Thanks for this to all!
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larrettp
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larrettp;304684 Wrote:
Great googly-moogly! I'm in!!! On port 3036 with user slimserver and no
password.
Then there's probably no my.tt being used for MySQL on the ReadyNAS
(even if you find one), as it appears to be using a standard MySQL
install from the OS.
Let us know what you find. I'm
OK, I've had some REALLY good results from the database changes I've
made to the SqueezeCenter database on my Mac. so good, in fact, that I
can't wait to apply them to the ReadyNAS. The only problem is, I can't
connect to it. Does anybody know the host name, port number, user-id
and password I
...also, the socket name, if possible, please?
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larrettp;304439 Wrote:
Does anybody know the host name, port number, user-id and password I
should use to connect MySQL administrator to it, please?
By default remote connections are disabled, so you will probably only
be able to connect to it on the ReadyNAS from a terminal prompt logged
erland;303524 Wrote:
The attached file contains the SqueezeCenter 7.0 table definitions, as
you can see there are already a lot of indexes setup for both the main
tables and the many-to-many tables. So I'm not sure if you just think
that no indexes exist or if you have really verified that
You could try my plugin PlaylistMan, which allows a song in the now playing
playlist to be added to the end of another playlist. The way this is done is
much quicker than loading the playlist, adding a song to it and then saving it
again.
http://www.hergest.demon.co.uk/Music/music.shtml
JJZolx;303532 Wrote:
Current playlists are stored in the database. So when you add a
playlist of 7500 tracks then you're doing 7500 table INSERTs. The time
taken is always going to be directly proportional to the size of the
playlist.
Not to mention that if you're shuffling the playlist
Phil Leigh;303714 Wrote:
7,500 inserts on an indexed table on a PC might take a while...
On the other hand, all main queries need to be index-covered so you
only read the index, not the data, wherever possible.
There is a read/write trade-off here, but since a database is (usually)
larrettp;303722 Wrote:
I totally agree with all that you say about the Read/Write tradeoff.
I've downloaded MySQL to my Mac and I'm currently experimenting with a
few interesting combinations. I also found that the many-to-many
records have Foreign Keys (with CASCADE ON DELETE) on them,
Phil Leigh;303723 Wrote:
Hi there - please ignore my comment about playlists as I don't use
them...but I do design very large (10Tb) commercial databases for a
living!
(OK so they don't use MySQL...but the general principles tend to
apply!)
That cascade on delete looks worrying :o) -
larrettp;303726 Wrote:
I'm a Mainframe DBA, so that's how my interest in this came about. I
must admit, I'd never touched MySQL until today but, as you say, the
same principles apply.
The thing about this whole design that gets me is the use of the
many-to-many's - especially with the RI
Phil Leigh;303730 Wrote:
Hmmm m:m+RI... does not compute, Captain!
Surely those m:m's have got to go (I know that means redesigning the
tables/indexes/keys but even so...)
Also - as I'm sure you know - RI only makes sense for 3rd+ normal form.
Anyway, I'm sure you know exactly what
larrettp;303732 Wrote:
However, as I said, without access to the code, I'm in a position of
trying to make the DB fit the code (tail wagging the dog?) The code is
freely available for download if that will help you
decipher.
--
egd
Internet forums: conclusive proof depth of gene pool is
Can you let me know where it is, please?
--
larrettp
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This should be it
http://www.slimdevices.com/downloads/nightly/latest/7.1/squeezecenter-7.1-19909.tgz
--
egd
Internet forums: conclusive proof depth of gene pool is indeed variable,
monkeys can be taught to cut code, and world peace is utterly
unrealistic...
larrettp;303732 Wrote:
the only time the DB is written to is when scanning or compiling a
playlist
Don't forget that SC will update its DB when you browse the music
folder and access a not yet referenced directory.
No deletion there, but inserts and updates that may require integrity
checks.
larrettp;303738 Wrote:
Can you let me know where it is, please?
If you install svn you can get the latest version by checking out:
http://svn.slimdevices.com/repos/slim/7.0/trunk/server/
In a standard SqueezeCenter installation, you will also find all the
code in the server/Slim directory.
larrettp;303224 Wrote:
I mean that the whole creation, loading and saving process takes an
unacceptable amount of time. My personal favourite playlist has
7750-ish songs but size should not be a factor (it doesn't affect
iTunes).
Have you tried installing and running SqueezeCenter on a
larrettp;303224 Wrote:
I mean that the whole creation, loading and saving process takes an
unacceptable amount of time. My personal favourite playlist has
7750-ish songs but size should not be a factor (it doesn't affect
iTunes).
Does it work fast enough when you hit play or is that also a
I'm afraid I only use Macs in my house - they work, PCs don't! Winamp
and Foobar only seem to be available for PC which is a bit
shortsighted.
The reason I use the ReadyNas is that I am often out of the country and
keep all my music at home on it.
If a GUI can be run faster, why isn't one
larrettp;303268 Wrote:
I'm afraid I only use Macs in my house - they work, PCs don't! Winamp
and Foobar only seem to be available for PC which is a bit
shortsighted.
Mac, PC, whatever. Surely there are music library managers for the Mac
that can be used to build playlists. Even iTunes.
Having everyone's music on the nas means we are all backed up and it is
in one central location. The ReadyNas is advertised as the machine for
the job - it should be able to do it.
--
larrettp
larrettp's Profile:
larrettp;303274 Wrote:
Having everyone's music on the nas means we are all backed up and it is
in one central location. The ReadyNas is advertised as the machine for
the job - it should be able to do it.
Ok. I stop talking to walls at 2:20AM.
--
JJZolx
Jim
That's a shame. The thing is, I have all my music on my Mac Powerbook.
My son and daughter each have a mac with their own music on it.
Therefore, for all of us to be able to access a single music library,
it needs to be centrally stored. That is why I bought the ReadyNas (as
well as a backup
Bottom line is the ReadyNAS is NEVER going to make a decent Slimserver
host, no matter what you do, it simply doesn't have the grunt for the
job. If you're after a fast NAS that can comfortably handle SC have a
look at the Thecus N5200PRO - my library is now 90k tracks and SC
remains pretty
I'll give it a try while I'm in the Netherlands this week. It should be
interesting.
Pete
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Look forward to seeing your findings.
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Internet forums: conclusive proof depth of gene pool is indeed variable,
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egd's Profile:
larrettp;303277 Wrote:
That's a shame. The thing is, I have all my music on my Mac Powerbook.
My son and daughter each have a mac with their own music on it.
Therefore, for all of us to be able to access a single music library,
it needs to be centrally stored. That is why I bought the
Thanks for that. I haven't come across the slimfx skin. Where is that
available or is it already installed? I'll try it when I get back to
the UK at the end of the week.
Cheers,
Pete
--
larrettp
larrettp's Profile:
larrettp;303493 Wrote:
Thanks for that. I haven't come across the slimfx skin. Where is that
available or is it already installed?
You'll need to install. Put it with the other skins under the HTML/
folder. Details about slimfx are in this thread:
larrettp;303277 Wrote:
That's a shame. The thing is, I have all my music on my Mac Powerbook.
My son and daughter each have a mac with their own music on it.
Therefore, for all of us to be able to access a single music library,
it needs to be centrally stored. That is why I bought the
The latest version of Squeezecenter plays track fine. The performance
problems are the painful slowness of the web browser when trying to add
albums to a playlist - it REALLY is S slow! Also, loading a playlist
to be played is very slow.
Maybe I'm impatient but response times of 3-5 minutes
larrettp;303505 Wrote:
The latest version of Squeezecenter plays track fine. The performance
problems are the painful slowness of the web browser when trying to add
albums to a playlist - it REALLY is S slow! Also, loading a playlist
to be played is very slow.
Maybe I'm impatient but
No, it's directly proportional to the size of the playlist. My point
always has been that size, in a well designed database should not be an
issue. Indexes and the removal of many-to-many tables would help
greatly. However, removing the many-to-many tables would mean code
changes. A quick way
A point about playlist creation and shuffling.
For a long time I did what it sounds like you are trying to do -- maintain a
large playlist of songs that I like, and play it in shuffle mode. I think
my list got up to around 3k songs, but I forget exactly.
Anyway, I also noticed that adding
larrettp;303515 Wrote:
No, it's directly proportional to the size of the playlist. My point
always has been that size, in a well designed database should not be an
issue. Indexes and the removal of many-to-many tables would help
greatly. However, removing the many-to-many tables would mean
larrettp;303515 Wrote:
No, it's directly proportional to the size of the playlist. My point
always has been that size, in a well designed database should not be an
issue.
Current playlists are stored in the database. So when you add a
playlist of 7500 tracks then you're doing 7500 table
JJZolx;303532 Wrote:
When SlimServer 6.0 came out, with its move to MySQL for its dbms, it
was faster on many systems with large libraries, slower on some systems
with small libraries, but very much slower on the ReadyNAS. It was
explained by Infrant that the ReadyNAS CPU architecture was
larrettp;303185 Wrote:
Playlist build - this really hasn't changed at all. There is no sign
of any improvement. Just make sure you have some wet paint nearby to
watch dry.
Exactly what do you mean with Playlist build ?
Are we still talking about the time it takes when you hit
I mean that the whole creation, loading and saving process takes an
unacceptable amount of time. My personal favourite playlist has
7750-ish songs but size should not be a factor (it doesn't affect
iTunes).
--
larrettp
larrettp;302509 Wrote:
The only downer is that I now have to wait several hours for the initial
library scan to complete before I can really try it out but the radio
stations are working fine and the synchronization seems good.
If you want to listen while it scans you should be able to get at
I'm afraid the ReadyNas still gets a bit of a nosebleed when asked to do
too much at the same time. I'm just trying what you suggested and it's
rebuffering like crazy. The radio stations work OK but they seem to
suddenly be way out of synch. That could be due to the scanning as
well. It is a huge
Sorry to hear that, but thanks for trying. Just curious: can you set
scanning to a lower priority on the ReadyNAS? I'm not suggesting that
you necessarily *want* to do that, as it would turn a long scanning
process into a very long scanning process. I'm just wondering how much
control users have
You can set the server and scanner priority via the SC Settings in the
Advanced - Performance tab. I've messed about with this in the past but
not on this release. There is a danger of 'over-tweaking' sometimes, of
course.
I'll just sit back and watch the grass grow while I'm waiting, I guess.
I know there was some criticism of my use of AAC (*.m4a) file types
earlier. I only used this because they all originate from iTunes and I
couldn't find a sensible way to convert them while maintaining the file
structure. anyway, I think I have found a piece of software which will
do this for me
Meanwhile, in the nightly updates folder -
http://www.slimdevices.com/downloads/nightly/latest/trunk/ - I have
been downloading the SqueezeCenter_7.0.1~n.bin files for testing. I
also noticed in there, the jive_7.0.1_r.bin and u-boot.bin files
which, on the face of it, would be usable on
larrettp;301832 Wrote:
Meanwhile, in the nightly updates folder -
http://www.slimdevices.com/downloads/nightly/latest/trunk/ - I have
been downloading the SqueezeCenter_7.0.1~n.bin files for testing. I
also noticed in there, the jive_7.0.1_r.bin and u-boot.bin files
which, on the
larrettp;301802 Wrote:
I know there was some criticism of my use of AAC (*.m4a) file types
earlier. I only used this because they all originate from iTunes and I
couldn't find a sensible way to convert them while maintaining the file
structure. anyway, I think I have found a piece of
Playlists are currently stored in two tables:
- The playlist file together with the playlist title is stored in the
tracks table
- The tracks table also contains all the music files
- The playlist_track table contains the relation between a playlist
file and the music file, basically the
OK. do you have a link to the Developers forum. I think it's an issue
worth raising. As you say, a lot of table activity takes place at run
time which would not be necessary if the Playlist table was used as a
'Notepad' type table which had been built from the 'Catalog' tables.
This goes back to
http://forums.slimdevices.com/forumdisplay.php?f=21
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sebp
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Okay, since it would obviously mean a major rewrite to adodpt a
different database structure, how about this for a suggestion:
The Playlist table doesn't really need to be coupled to the rest of the
database as it is just a list of tracks to be played. The columns
required are Playlist name,
This is all good detail. It's hard to analyse with only a sketchy
outline of the database but I seriously believe the answers lie there.
I'm not proposing a single track record - just to eliminate the many-to
many tables. If that is not currently possible, how about creating an
index on both
A couple of supplementary points arising from my reply above:
1. Why would a song have 2 genres - as shown in your example? Surely, a
song is either 'Opera' or 'Death Metal'!
2. It seems to me that there are 2 distinct functions to the
SqueezeCenter application. One is to gather the information
larrettp;299951 Wrote:
A couple of supplementary points arising from my reply above:
1. Why would a song have 2 genres - as shown in your example? Surely, a
song is either 'Opera' or 'Death Metal'!
I don't want to get involved in the minutae of database structures as
that is not my
Thanks, sometimes it's difficult to see the usage of something if you
are not using it in that way yourself. Obviously, people do use
multiple genres and that's not a problem in the structure I'm
proposing.
Anytime I need any help with Undersea Communications, I know who to
come to! ;)
--
MuckleEck;299958 Wrote:
Perhaps I am in the minority!
I'll double the size of your minority.
MC
--
ModelCitizen
Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known.
SB+ Bryston 4BSST PMC OB1s.
http://www.last.fm/user/ModelCitizen
larrettp;299951 Wrote:
2. It seems to me that there are 2 distinct functions to the
SqueezeCenter application. One is to gather the information abou all
the tracks in the library and the other is to access that information
to play the track (i.e. access and run the file).
It's already
Well, I've had a look at that Wiki as well and I still see the
'Many-to-Many' tables in there. The problem with these is that they
have to be created and maintained, which takes time and slows down the
scanning process. Also, when they are being read, they are very
inefficient as they will be
larrettp;299626 Wrote:
Well, I've had a look at that Wiki as well and I still see the
'Many-to-Many' tables in there. The problem with these is that they
have to be created and maintained, which takes time and slows down the
scanning process. Also, when they are being read, they are very
No, that's not what I'm saying.
Basically, without access to the full database column definitions, I'm
proposing this:
Instead of the many=to-many tables (ALWAYS something to send shivers
down a DBAs spine!), put Indexes on the columns used in the SQL and
rewrite the statements. The resulting
It might be my knowledge that isn't deep enough regarding this, but I
really can't understand what you mean.
The many to many tables contains information that isn't available
anywhere else in the database, so they can't just be removed without
moving the information anywhere else.
I will give
OK, you have now shown me a little more about the database structure
which I wasnt aware of but it doesnt mean all is lost. It does mean a
bit more work on the existing system but the benefits could solve many
problems. Taking your example, lets remove the genre_track and
contributor_track
By the way, I followed the link in your signature and I want to try out
some of your plugins. They look as though they might be interesting -
especially with regard to this problem.
I'll let you know how I get on.
Cheers, it's nice to be having a conversation with someone who
understands what
erland;291718 Wrote:
A brief documentation of the database structure can be found here:
http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?SlimServerDatabaseStructure
BTW, that link didn't work for me.
I've often wondered why the DB isn't indexed for all the predictable
web-interface queries.
I could
bobkoure;297679 Wrote:
BTW, that link didn't work for me.
The wiki urls has changed when they changed the wiki software, new
link:
http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/SlimServerDatabaseStructure
bobkoure;297679 Wrote:
I've often wondered why the DB isn't indexed for all the predictable
I have worked very hard to configure the whole ReadyNas/SqueezeCenter
combination based on the latest versions available and I have now
achieved a workable combination of options. It is now performing well
although I still maintain that the database structure and SQL are the
root cause of the
I've also spotted in the documentation that several 'many-to-many'
tables are created and maintained. These are an enormous I/O overhead
and, if they are not indexed, will give exactly the performance log-jam
we are experiencing.
Basically, the bigger the library, the longer each operation will
larrettp;291570 Wrote:
Converting everything from AAC is going to be a hell of a job. I
haven't found a program yet that will preserve the folder structure -
any ideas?
If you are using a PC try dBpoweramp reference version there is a small
cost ($30 I think) but it will convert and
larrettp;291586 Wrote:
From a professional point of view though (I am a mainframe DB2 Database
Administrator), I'd love to know why the access paths to the data are so
slow - is it the database deign (more indexes required, maybe) or the
SQL used to access the data or the program design?
I'm just staggered how politely helpful the people on these forums
continue to be despite the unreasonable and misguided expectations and
the less than grateful or thankful attitude of the original poster.
What an amazing place this is.
MC
--
ModelCitizen
Somewhere, something incredible is
Table name IX Num Cols
contributors1 id namesort
2 namesort
contributor_album 1 contributor role
larrettp;283795 Wrote:
There is, indeed, a lot of stuff out there about performance of
Slimserver/Squeezecenter on the ReadyNas.
Unfortunately, although customers themselves try to give tips on
improvement (some work, some don't) there is little, if any, evidence
of the vendors
There are 2 issues here:
1. I have spent countless hours trying to get this setup to perform as
promised. WAY beyond any 30 day guarantee. This is mostly because any
technical support offered (for any IT product) automatically makes you
assume it is YOUR fault! I have tried every new version of
larrettp;291391 Wrote:
My library is well ordered and I spent a long time converting all tracks
to the same format (AAC).
I don't recall you mentioning before that your tracks are AAC. So in
addition to the demands of 7500 track shuffle plays, you are also
spending lots of the ReadyNAS's
But it is advertised to be capable of handling AAC!!! Why should I not
believe it? There is a basic dishonesty here. How am I to know that,
although it is capable of playing AAC files, it isn't capable of
playing them efficiently?
--
larrettp
larrettp;291406 Wrote:
There is a basic dishonesty here. How am I to know that, although it is
capable of playing AAC files, it isn't capable of playing them
efficiently?
You should not blindly trust ads and reviews.
There are tons of threads in both SlimDevices and Infrant forums where
So...
Are the forums a service provided for customer feedback and to provide
solutions for problems found during use...
or are they a nerdfest for those who just want to tinker with the
hardware and software but aren't interested in a product that is
readily usable by the general public?
--
Forums are like life. They're whatever you make of them.
--
radish
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What processor does your ReadyNAS have?
The processor in the ReadyNAS NV is a IT3107 Network Storage
Processor. This is a custom processor tuned for networked storage
operations and does not have floating point which means the processor
is not good at handling some Perl operations and
larrettp;291406 Wrote:
But it is advertised to be capable of handling AAC!!! Why should I not
believe it? There is a basic dishonesty here. How am I to know that,
although it is capable of playing AAC files, it isn't capable of
playing them efficiently?
And it is capable of playing AAC. You
OK, I haven't ignored advice and I really want this to work but let's
take these one at a time..
Converting everything from AAC is going to be a hell of a job. I
haven't found a program yet that will preserve the folder structure -
any ideas?
Random mix won't work for me, I'm afraid. The
Random mix won't work for me, I'm afraid. The library contains my kids
music as well as my own and I don't even want to hear some of my OWN
music on a regular basis. Let alone hip-hop and death metal.
That's why RandomMix lets you exclude genres from the mix. No classical
for me, nor spoken
Thanks, at last a reply that seems to make sense of the way the machine
is being slowed down. I'll have a look at the random mix options to see
if I can use it.
From a professional point of view though (I am a mainframe DB2 Database
Administrator), I'd love to know why the access paths to the
There is, indeed, a lot of stuff out there about performance of
Slimserver/Squeezecenter on the ReadyNas.
Unfortunately, although customers themselves try to give tips on
improvement (some work, some don't) there is little, if any, evidence
of the vendors (i.e.Slidevices and Netgear) showing any
Do you have shuffle mode on? In other words, are you reshuffling those
7500 track playlists every time you load them? If so, then *that*
(i.e., the reshuffling) is what is taking so long -- not re-indexing
the tracks. Shuffle is pretty inefficient, and the inefficiency is
amplified tremendously
Yes, I do have shuffle on and, to my mind, the system should be able to
cope with this. I want all my favourite songs available at any time in
a random order.
I run my SB3's wired as well but it doesn't make a lot of difference.
The fact is that the web interface takes SOOO long to load and that
larrettp;283388 Wrote:
Yes, I do have shuffle on and, to my mind, the system should be able to
cope with this. I want all my favourite songs available at any time in
a random order.
You're running on a very underpowered piece of hardware, there are
limits.
This seems to be a universal
I want all my favourite songs available at any time in a random order.
Even using the Random Mix option that comes standard with SC7 (and came
standard with SS6.x) would be a better way of achieving what you are
trying to do than using shuffle. Just create a Favorites genre,
include that in the
Thanks for that. I am running the ReadyNas with 1Gb of RAM. Why is it
still underpowered and do you have any suggestions for how I can get
more out of it, please?
The plugins only describe installation instructions for Windows, Mac or
Linux. Can they be installed on ReadyNas and, if so, do you
I honestly don't know whether shuffling is more CPU intensive or memory
intensive, but 1GB of RAM should be plenty. What processor does your
ReadyNAS have?
Re plugins, do you have telnet or ssh access to the ReadyNAS? If so,
you just need to copy the plugins to the correct directory (preserving
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