Re: [EVDL] want soc spread sheet
On 11 Mar 2024 at 20:14, redscooter via EV wrote: > can someone make a spreadsheet What's your budget? Maybe you could hire a skilled contractor through a "microtask" website. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Endless loop: See loop, endless. Loop, endless: See endless loop. -- Stan Kelly-Bootle, "The Devil's DP Dictionary" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] want soc spread sheet
my leaf conversion 24kw to 40 kw is not showing well on the gom and leaf spy. but I can read the voltage on leaf spy even thou SOC is not showing properly. can someone make a spreadsheet with 10%, to 95% SOC, so I can use voltage to firgure out Charge left. like near empty was 337, full 390 . I can find this on the web. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues
My experience in The Netherlands was that the PE ground was provided
by the utility in parallel to the Neutral and phase connections, no
local bonding other than that the water pipe or the steel radiant
heating pipe was bonded to the incoming ground from the utility. The
only place where the utility ground was staked was at the
"transformerhouse" since the water line coming into the house was not
metallic but typically a type of plastic, there was no grounding
through the bonding to the water and heating lines inside the house,
that was just the safety for the occupants that the water and heating
systems were grounded through the incoming ground wire from the
utility, staked at the secondary of the central transformer.
NOTE that most Norway and a few smaller areas have an "IT" system:
Isolated Terra, in other words: the secondary of the transformer is
*floating*. Ground is staked but not connected to Neutral. Each of the
phases can have any ground potential between 0V and 400V, depending
only on faults in the system, but the advantage is that you can have a
single ground fault in the system WITHOUT losing power. This was seen
as an advantage for Hospitals and apparently was used for most of
Norway. This make the (required for EV chargers) "ground presence"
detection impossible for Norway, so we had to add a defeat option that
could be enabled for chargers shipped to Norway's IT areas.
On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 6:52 PM Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>
> Most of the world outside North America, is 230-240 VAC to ground. Split
> single phase, 120-neutral-120, is essentially only in North America.
>
> Normal circuit breakers are only single pole and only switch the live
> conductor. It is not common to find a circuit breaker that cuts the
> neutral as well as the live conductor. In the US, a two pole breaker is
> feeding a 240 circuit, and each conductor (black and white/red) are 120
> Vac to neutral. The 240 v appliance may not have need of the neutral
> conductor.
>
> In the the US and Canada, the neutral conductor is connected to the
> ground (earth) conductor ONLY in the main (first in line) service
> equipment ("panel"). The ground rod conductor and the plumbing bond
> conductor(s) also are connected at the main panel. Everywhere else the
> neural and ground are kept separate. This is the general practice in
> most of the world.
>
> The neutral coming from the utility is indeed grounded in North America.
> It is also grounded in most of the rest of the world. It kind of has to
> be, if you think about it. The utilities often sink ground rods and run
> a ground wire here and there. They do this at least in one place near
> the step-down transformer serving the branch. However, after it branches
> to different houses on the same branch, they each connect the neutral to
> a ground rod conductor in each of their main panels.
>
> What is interesting is that the live (hot) conductor in North America is
> the black colored one. Most other places, the black is neutral (ground
> potential).
>
> The US has, by far, the world's thickest electrical code book. :-)
>
> In NZ, they routinely run 10 amps through 1mm^2 wire. (You are allowed
> to put up to 16 amps depending on insulation type and installation
> methods.) This is equivalent to a 17 AWG wire. The wiring is much
> thinner in the rest of the world than it it is the US.
>
> Bill D.
>
>
> On 3/12/2024 12:51 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:
> > On 11 Mar 2024 at 20:33, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote:
> >
> >> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think at least some of the non-us
> >> households ONLY have 240 volts (i.e they don't bring 480 into the
> >> panel and have split transformers like we have but rather they
> >> groundone leg as a neutral)
> > I don't know about other places, but France doesn't have an equivalent of
> > the US split phase system.
> >
> > It's 400 / 230 volt 3-phase. Older and/or larger houses often have 3-phase
> > installed, especially if they were once farms or businesses. Newer houses
> > usually just get one phase and neutral.
> >
> > You can request 3-phase from the utility, and charge your EV at up to 22kW,
> > if the onboard charger allows. (32a * 230v * 3ph) But the cost will be
> > higher.
> >
> > Circuit breakers are always double-pole, so they open both hot and neutral.
> >
> >> That means our 240 has a slight advantage in that each leg is only 120v
> >> above
> >> ground, while I think some countries have a 240 with a hot and neutralleg.
> > Yep, hot and neutral. For a 3-phase installation, 3 hots and a neutral.
> >
> > As I understand it, the neutral isn't grounded ahead of the house. Maybe
> > that's why a lightning arrestor is usually fitted to the main panel. But
> > the neutral IS grounded at the main house service entrance, so the potential
> > to ground is 230v.
> >
> > Hence a 500ma main RCD, and smaller 30ma RCDs on each panel bus.
> >
> > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
> >
> > To reach me, don't reply to
Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)
I remember that the city of Delft had its power distributed in a similar fashion as the USA, with two phases at 115V to ground and outlets wired with the two phases. Before the end of last century, when The Netherlands was also driving to eliminate all overhead wiring, even from rural areas, they also converted Delft from this center-grounded system to the usual single phase 230V to ground & Neutral, so they could use 3-phase distribution. On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 7:11 PM Steve Gaarder via EV wrote: > > As I understand it, 110 volts was chosen because an arc light operates at > 55 volts, and thus two of them in series would work well. > > I believe Europe started out at 110/120, and moved up to 220/240 to reduce > the need for copper, esp. after WWII. When I lived in Europe in the > 1960s, I traveled to places in France and Italy that had 110/120. And I > recall reading a posting from a German electrical worker describing what > they did to convert a village from 110 to 220. > > And here's a writeup in voltages in Italy: > https://samuele963.github.io/electrics/history.html > > Steve Gaarder > > On Mon, 11 Mar 2024, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > > > As far as I know, Edison decided on 110VDC (That's why people in the US > > constantly refer to it as "110" when it's not been that way for over a > > century), as that was high enough to make conductors reasonable, but not > > terribly lethal, (so he claimed) light bulb filaments could bear it, and > > switchgear could handle the arcs. When AC came along, to preserve the same > > light bulbs, they matched Edison's DC. (RMS) > > > > It started off as 110VAC, and slowly rose over the years until it was made > > official in ANSI C81.1 in the early 1950's as 120VAC. > > > > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)
Since *all* last-mile power lines are underground in Netherlands (and in many EU countries) the common way to distribute power is to send mid voltage to a "transformerhouse" which resembles a garage or sometimes a small house in a residential neighborhood, which houses the transformer to step the mid voltage down to 400V (3x 230V) as well as the breakers and other switchgear for the local distribution. This transformer's secondary center (Neutral) connection was isolated from the mid voltage and grounded (bonded, staked) to provide a grounded Neutral even though the PE ground was ALSO carried from that transformer into each house, so a fault in the Neutral down stream would still not cause a dangerous situation. In Europe the housing of anything is NEVER connected to either of the power wires, because even today most EU outlets (not in all countries) allow you to freely rotate the plug 180 deg anf plug in with the two wires reversed, so you always have to account for either wire to be phase or Neutral. The switchgear in the transferhouse included more than just breakers: the one nearest to one house I lived in could be heard to produce a loud *clang* at dusk and then the street lighting in the whole neighborhood came on. This transformer provided this street light circuit in addition to the 3 phase power that ran under the street and sprouted a short branch into every home's crawl space, poking into the utility closet and terminated at the hidden "utility fuse" that protected the meter. Woe the person who overloaded their circuits to the point that they blew their utility fuse (remember, typically 25A or upgraded to 35A) and had to wait for the utility company to come, break the seals and install a new fuse. Smaller homes typically had between 4 to 7 circuits all fused at 16A (or in later years, breakers) but still going to the same single phase meter and utility fuse... So, no turning on your washing machine AND your dryer AND your dishwasher AND boiling a kettle AND the microwave... because then darkness ensued, even though the individual 16A circuits could easily carry that, the limit was built-in at the utility entrance. On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 6:55 PM (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > > The difference is historically whether there has been a bonded neutral. My > understanding is this wasn't common in EU until more recently. (Bonded > means a stake is driven in the ground at your house and connected to one > side of the line that is then designated as the "neutral", meaning it has > no voltage differential (or very little) with respect to the earth. > > In the US the "center tap" of the 240v transformer is what is bonded, so > thus each leg is only 120V over the earth. > > On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 6:33 PM EV List Lackey via EV > wrote: > > > On 11 Mar 2024 at 17:37, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: > > > > > In my homes in either Netherlands or India, only the phase was > > > protected with a breaker. > > > > I have heard that that's the case in the UK also - breakers are single > > pole, > > and open only the hot side. > > > > Maybe branch circuit breakers are double pole only in France. I think > > that > > historically - maybe still - there was / is no standard for polarizing > > French receptacles. Ungrounded plugs will fit them either way. > > > > So it's not possible to guarantee that the shell of the E27 lamp socket in > > my desk lamp is at ground potential. > > > > Again, it's like the USA many years ago, when 2-pin plugs there were > > unpolarized. > > > > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey > > > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my > > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > > > We can't solve problems by using the same kind > > of thinking we used when we created them. > > > > -- Alan Kay > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > > > ___ > > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > > > > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240311/67dd27ec/attachment.htm> > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)
As I understand it, 110 volts was chosen because an arc light operates at 55 volts, and thus two of them in series would work well. I believe Europe started out at 110/120, and moved up to 220/240 to reduce the need for copper, esp. after WWII. When I lived in Europe in the 1960s, I traveled to places in France and Italy that had 110/120. And I recall reading a posting from a German electrical worker describing what they did to convert a village from 110 to 220. And here's a writeup in voltages in Italy: https://samuele963.github.io/electrics/history.html Steve Gaarder On Mon, 11 Mar 2024, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: As far as I know, Edison decided on 110VDC (That's why people in the US constantly refer to it as "110" when it's not been that way for over a century), as that was high enough to make conductors reasonable, but not terribly lethal, (so he claimed) light bulb filaments could bear it, and switchgear could handle the arcs. When AC came along, to preserve the same light bulbs, they matched Edison's DC. (RMS) It started off as 110VAC, and slowly rose over the years until it was made official in ANSI C81.1 in the early 1950's as 120VAC. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)
The difference is historically whether there has been a bonded neutral. My understanding is this wasn't common in EU until more recently. (Bonded means a stake is driven in the ground at your house and connected to one side of the line that is then designated as the "neutral", meaning it has no voltage differential (or very little) with respect to the earth. In the US the "center tap" of the 240v transformer is what is bonded, so thus each leg is only 120V over the earth. On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 6:33 PM EV List Lackey via EV wrote: > On 11 Mar 2024 at 17:37, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: > > > In my homes in either Netherlands or India, only the phase was > > protected with a breaker. > > I have heard that that's the case in the UK also - breakers are single > pole, > and open only the hot side. > > Maybe branch circuit breakers are double pole only in France. I think > that > historically - maybe still - there was / is no standard for polarizing > French receptacles. Ungrounded plugs will fit them either way. > > So it's not possible to guarantee that the shell of the E27 lamp socket in > my desk lamp is at ground potential. > > Again, it's like the USA many years ago, when 2-pin plugs there were > unpolarized. > > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > We can't solve problems by using the same kind > of thinking we used when we created them. > > -- Alan Kay > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240311/67dd27ec/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues
Most of the world outside North America, is 230-240 VAC to ground. Split
single phase, 120-neutral-120, is essentially only in North America.
Normal circuit breakers are only single pole and only switch the live
conductor. It is not common to find a circuit breaker that cuts the
neutral as well as the live conductor. In the US, a two pole breaker is
feeding a 240 circuit, and each conductor (black and white/red) are 120
Vac to neutral. The 240 v appliance may not have need of the neutral
conductor.
In the the US and Canada, the neutral conductor is connected to the
ground (earth) conductor ONLY in the main (first in line) service
equipment ("panel"). The ground rod conductor and the plumbing bond
conductor(s) also are connected at the main panel. Everywhere else the
neural and ground are kept separate. This is the general practice in
most of the world.
The neutral coming from the utility is indeed grounded in North America.
It is also grounded in most of the rest of the world. It kind of has to
be, if you think about it. The utilities often sink ground rods and run
a ground wire here and there. They do this at least in one place near
the step-down transformer serving the branch. However, after it branches
to different houses on the same branch, they each connect the neutral to
a ground rod conductor in each of their main panels.
What is interesting is that the live (hot) conductor in North America is
the black colored one. Most other places, the black is neutral (ground
potential).
The US has, by far, the world's thickest electrical code book. :-)
In NZ, they routinely run 10 amps through 1mm^2 wire. (You are allowed
to put up to 16 amps depending on insulation type and installation
methods.) This is equivalent to a 17 AWG wire. The wiring is much
thinner in the rest of the world than it it is the US.
Bill D.
On 3/12/2024 12:51 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:
On 11 Mar 2024 at 20:33, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think at least some of the non-us
households ONLY have 240 volts (i.e they don't bring 480 into the
panel and have split transformers like we have but rather they
groundone leg as a neutral)
I don't know about other places, but France doesn't have an equivalent of
the US split phase system.
It's 400 / 230 volt 3-phase. Older and/or larger houses often have 3-phase
installed, especially if they were once farms or businesses. Newer houses
usually just get one phase and neutral.
You can request 3-phase from the utility, and charge your EV at up to 22kW,
if the onboard charger allows. (32a * 230v * 3ph) But the cost will be
higher.
Circuit breakers are always double-pole, so they open both hot and neutral.
That means our 240 has a slight advantage in that each leg is only 120v above
ground, while I think some countries have a 240 with a hot and neutralleg.
Yep, hot and neutral. For a 3-phase installation, 3 hots and a neutral.
As I understand it, the neutral isn't grounded ahead of the house. Maybe
that's why a lightning arrestor is usually fitted to the main panel. But
the neutral IS grounded at the main house service entrance, so the potential
to ground is 230v.
Hence a 500ma main RCD, and smaller 30ma RCDs on each panel bus.
David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Listen to the mustn'ts, child; listen to the don'ts.
Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts.
Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me:
Anything can happen, child. Anything can be.
-- Shel Silverstein
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
___
Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
No other addresses in TO and CC fields
HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] test spread sheet
On 11 Mar 2024 at 18:22, redscooter via EV wrote: > want SS for SOC Say what? David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = First grub, then ethics. -- Bertolt Brecht = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)
On 11 Mar 2024 at 17:37, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: > In my homes in either Netherlands or India, only the phase was > protected with a breaker. I have heard that that's the case in the UK also - breakers are single pole, and open only the hot side. Maybe branch circuit breakers are double pole only in France. I think that historically - maybe still - there was / is no standard for polarizing French receptacles. Ungrounded plugs will fit them either way. So it's not possible to guarantee that the shell of the E27 lamp socket in my desk lamp is at ground potential. Again, it's like the USA many years ago, when 2-pin plugs there were unpolarized. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. -- Alan Kay = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] test spread sheet
want SS for SOC ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)
On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 4:52 PM EV List Lackey via EV wrote: > Circuit breakers are always double-pole, so they open both hot and neutral. In my homes in either Netherlands or India, only the phase was protected with a breaker. Neutral was wired straight from the service entrance to the circuits/outlets. Maybe that practice has changed in recent years, but I have not heard from my family that they had to upgrade anything while they did install EV chargers. Now, the EV charger is likely to be required to disconnect both power wires, including Neutral. But I have not heard about dual pole breakers for single phase circuits there. Cor. ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)
On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 1:35 PM Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote: > That means our 240 has a slight advantage in that each leg is only 120v above > ground, while I think some countries have a 240 with a hot and neutralleg. The USA 240V is a split-phase system, meaning two 120V phases in 180 deg offset, simply created by a single winding with center tap off a 11kV mid voltage line and distribution transformer AKA "Pole Pig" if it is one of the round barrel, pole mounted transformers. The split phase is helping to reduce the amount of copper needed to transport the 120V, because the Neutral return current from one phase cancels the return current from the other phase. THat is one of the reasons that you are requested to do a load analysis and phase balance calculation when requesting the permit for a service panel. So, the Neutral does not need to carry *twice* the current of the two phases, but it needs only to be as large as a single phase, so your copper use is 75% of a single 120V feed with double the copper in the phase and double the copper in the Neutral return, instead you have 3 wires, each 50% smaller conductors, so a saving of 25%. In Europe all power is 3-phase, every single home has 3 phase plus neutral coming into the utility closet, but often only a single phase meter gets installed, though you can get it swapped for 3 phase when you need more power. Typically a house is provided at least with 25A single phase 230V and in a block of houses every 3rd house is on the same phase as your house. (babyphones that send the signal over the power wires work best if you visit the neighbors 3 homes over) Since all power is 3-phase and the returns of the current in the Neutral again cancel each other out, the Neutral only needs to be as big as one of the 3 phases, so the saving in copper is 33% as you only need 4 wires instead of 6, or 2 wires of 3x the amount of copper, to transport the necessary power. That is also why upstream of the mid voltage distribution transformer, all USA grids are also 3-phase and commercial sites are supplied with 3-phase, either 480V (3x277V) or 208V (3x 120V). ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] canbus logging, canoe?
Try downloading SavvyCAN, it's FOSS and knows how to import most any format: https://savvycan.com/ On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 5:12 PM John Lussmyer via EV wrote: > Does anyone know what the .asc Canoe Canbus logging file format is? > Or has samples of the files that I might be able to figure out? > > I'm working with a device via canbus, and the manufacturer won't answer > ANY question unless it has a .asc or .blf log file with it. > (Even questions like "What does message 0x00FFDA mean?) > This is after I had to sign an NDA to get the list of commands it > accepts, and the ones it sends. (which is apparently an incomplete list.) > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240311/e9cfef8b/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)
The consensus is that ~30mA is the threshold for a fatal shock under ordinary circumstances: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_injury and https://www.asc.ohio-state.edu/physics/p616/safety/fatal_current.html Thus, most countries pick 30 mA as the trip for GFCI (RCD). Picking a greater current increases the risk of fatalities, while picking a lower current increases the risk/frequency of nuisance tripping. 30 mA is the smart place to set the standard trip. Nuisance tripping due to the lower 5 mA threshold actually reduces safety, if you think about it for a bit. Whole house GFCI protection is totally impractical at 5mA, while it is completely acceptable and the normal practice at 30 mA. Unprotected circuits in the household raise the safety risk, obviously. Bedroom outlets are a prime example of non-GFCI protected areas under the NEC. (They have arc fault protection, but that is a different animal entirely.) Nuisance tripping will cause folks to defeat the GFCI protection by simply using an extension cord to an unprotected outlet (like one in a hallway) when they are in an area that requires a GFCI, like outdoors, or in the kitchen. Keep in mind that 30 mA GFCI protection is required over the entire household, you can, but you aren't required, to use a single device to accomplish that coverage. I have several separate GFCI breakers, each covering different portions of my house. I have a separate GFCI breaker for the lighting. I have a separate GFCI breaker for the front outlets and one for the rear outlets. I have two separate GFCI circuits for outdoor outlets. They aren't terribly expensive, and having separate ones helps isolate any problems that may occur. On 3/12/2024 8:42 AM, Lee Hart via EV wrote: Cor van de Water wrote: my garage has a GFCI circuit. As a consequence, I cannot use my garage to do any development work, because as soon as I plug in one of my HP power supplies, even before I turn it on, the heavy capacitive filtering on the AC line will trip the GFCI because it indeed creates a current to ground. The easy answer is a big isolation transformer. I have some big 1KW ones that I use. (If anyone needs one, I have many, holding down the basement floor). If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have a breaker) that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit. The original idea for a GFCI was safety; to keep people from being electrocuted (i.e. junior sticks a fork in the toaster with one hand to get his bread out, while the other hand is resting on the grounded sink. The 5mA limit was chosen as the maximum current that a normal healthy person would survive, since they can let go and jump away from the source of the shock. In medical settings, an even lower limit of 0.5mA was required, on the basis that hospital patients may well not be able to remove themselves from the source of the shock. But these limits proved to be hard to design for. So manufacturers have lobbied for higher limits of 50mA. That's more than enough to kill a person. Yet the last I knew, our EVs are being designed to allow up to 50mA of ground leakage before their GFCI trips. 500mA for a GFCI limit? Gah! That would not only kill someone, but *cook* them as well! -- Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James -- Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have a breaker) that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit. This is only used in industrial settings where a lower limit will indeed trip guaranteed. On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:50 AM (-Phil-) via EV wrote: Keep in mind that excepting North America, only (part of) Japan uses a lower voltage. In the US (residential) system, no conductor is ever over about 160v peak-to-peak with respect to ground, whereas in NZ/EU you are getting over 300v P-P, which is arguably 4 times more lethal. I'd definitely want everything protected by GFCI/RCD if I had those voltages everywhere. On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:25 AM EV List Lackey via EV wrote: On 10 Mar 2024 at 23:41, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: Based on what I know, [the US NEC is] one of the most rigorous codes in the world. Agreed. I've seen some ... interesting ... wiring practices elsewhere, including Spain, Italy, France, Canary Islands, Puerto Rico, and South Korea. Some of them look like old USA practices. Example: junction boxes aren't usually used for surface mounted luminaires in France. The cable or smurf tubing emerges from the ceiling or wall. I've seen single conductors run through ceramic cleats on the ceiling surface in South Korea, similar to early 20th century US wiring. It appeared to be a recent installation. Service capacities are also lower. A typical western EU service will be 6kW or 12kW, a size the US hasn't seen in probably 70 years. Spain has a lot of 3kW services. I'm sure that that's a problem for EV home charging there. On the
[EVDL] canbus logging, canoe?
Does anyone know what the .asc Canoe Canbus logging file format is? Or has samples of the files that I might be able to figure out? I'm working with a device via canbus, and the manufacturer won't answer ANY question unless it has a .asc or .blf log file with it. (Even questions like "What does message 0x00FFDA mean?) This is after I had to sign an NDA to get the list of commands it accepts, and the ones it sends. (which is apparently an incomplete list.) ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)
On 11 Mar 2024 at 20:33, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think at least some of the non-us > households ONLY have 240 volts (i.e they don't bring 480 into the > panel and have split transformers like we have but rather they > groundone leg as a neutral) I don't know about other places, but France doesn't have an equivalent of the US split phase system. It's 400 / 230 volt 3-phase. Older and/or larger houses often have 3-phase installed, especially if they were once farms or businesses. Newer houses usually just get one phase and neutral. You can request 3-phase from the utility, and charge your EV at up to 22kW, if the onboard charger allows. (32a * 230v * 3ph) But the cost will be higher. Circuit breakers are always double-pole, so they open both hot and neutral. > That means our 240 has a slight advantage in that each leg is only 120v above > ground, while I think some countries have a 240 with a hot and neutralleg. Yep, hot and neutral. For a 3-phase installation, 3 hots and a neutral. As I understand it, the neutral isn't grounded ahead of the house. Maybe that's why a lightning arrestor is usually fitted to the main panel. But the neutral IS grounded at the main house service entrance, so the potential to ground is 230v. Hence a 500ma main RCD, and smaller 30ma RCDs on each panel bus. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Listen to the mustn'ts, child; listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me: Anything can happen, child. Anything can be. -- Shel Silverstein = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)
Lee wrote - I have many, holding down the basement floor How novel, so I if you ever want to move your house all you have to do is remove the transformers? Best regards, Rush Dougherty TucsonEV www.TucsonEV.com > -Original Message- > From: EV On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV > Sent: Monday, March 11, 2024 12:42 PM > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List > Cc: Lee Hart > Subject: Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV > courtesy > outlet to a solar array) > > Cor van de Water wrote: > > my garage has a GFCI circuit. As a consequence, I cannot use my garage > > to do any development work, because as soon as I plug in one of my HP > > power supplies, even before I turn it on, the heavy capacitive > > filtering on the AC line will trip the GFCI because it indeed creates > > a current to ground. > > The easy answer is a big isolation transformer. I have some big 1KW ones that > I > use. (If anyone needs one, I have many, holding down the basement floor). > > > If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have > > a breaker) that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit. > > The original idea for a GFCI was safety; to keep people from being > electrocuted > (i.e. junior sticks a fork in the toaster with one hand to get his bread out, > while the > other hand is resting on the grounded sink. The 5mA limit was chosen as the > maximum current that a normal healthy person would survive, since they can let > go and jump away from the source of the shock. In medical settings, an even > lower > limit of 0.5mA was required, on the basis that hospital patients may well not > be > able to remove themselves from the source of the shock. > > But these limits proved to be hard to design for. So manufacturers have > lobbied > for > higher limits of 50mA. That's more than enough to kill a person. Yet the last > I > knew, our EVs are being designed to allow up to 50mA of ground leakage before > their GFCI trips. > > 500mA for a GFCI limit? Gah! That would not only kill someone, but *cook* them > as well! > -- > Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James > -- > Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com > > If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have a > breaker) > that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit. > This is only used in industrial settings where a lower limit will indeed trip > guaranteed. > > On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:50?AM (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > > > > Keep in mind that excepting North America, only (part of) Japan uses a > > lower voltage. In the US (residential) system, no conductor is ever > > over about 160v peak-to-peak with respect to ground, whereas in NZ/EU > > you are getting over 300v P-P, which is arguably 4 times more lethal. > > I'd definitely want everything protected by GFCI/RCD if I had those > > voltages everywhere. > > > > On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:25?AM EV List Lackey via EV > > wrote: > > > > > On 10 Mar 2024 at 23:41, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > > > > > > > Based on what I know, [the US NEC is] one of the most rigorous > > > > codes in the world. > > > > > > Agreed. I've seen some ... interesting ... wiring practices > > > elsewhere, including Spain, Italy, France, Canary Islands, Puerto > > > Rico, and South Korea. > > > > > > Some of them look like old USA practices. Example: junction boxes > > > aren't usually used for surface mounted luminaires in France. The > > > cable or smurf tubing emerges from the ceiling or wall. > > > > > > I've seen single conductors run through ceramic cleats on the > > > ceiling surface in South Korea, similar to early 20th century US > > > wiring. It appeared to be a recent installation. > > > > > > Service capacities are also lower. A typical western EU service will > > > be 6kW or 12kW, a size the US hasn't seen in probably 70 years. > > > Spain has a lot of 3kW services. I'm sure that that's a problem for > > > EV home charging there. > > > > > > On the other hand, as Bill says about NZ, in most (all?) western EU > > > nations, the whole house is GFI (RCD) protected at 30ma leakage > > > current. > > > > > > David Roden, EVDL moderator general lackey > > > > > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my > > > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt > > > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > > = > > > > > > Interpreter: One who enables two persons of different languages to > > > understand each other by repeating to each what it would have been > > > to the interpreter's advantage for the other to have said. > > > > > > -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > > = > > > > > > ___ > > > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and > > > CC fields > > > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > > > > > > >
Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)
Lee, I have designed EVSE so you can quote me on this: The GFI limit that (level2, AC) EV Charging Stations are designed to for the USA is 20mA. (For EU the limit is 30mA, the same limit as the standard GFCI breakers in EU, although there is an additional requirement to detect 6mA DC Current leakage) Apparently the car manufacturers recognised that 5mA is not a good limit as even 20mA can cause nuisance trips, I have dealt with a few installations of our chargers where the GFI alerted on a problem, despite nothing being wrong with the charging station. The common denominator that I have seen is noise on the grid. In one installation it was perfectly reproducible - during the day, not at night. That set me on the path of Solar being the cause and indeed, that was a home that had recently installed a *lot* of solar panels, each with its own micro-inverter. And I found out that the solar was at the same phase as the EV charger (this was in EU, with 3 phase power, so the customer could move his single phase charger to a different phase than the solar and his problems ceased). Apparently the high frequent switching of the inverters leaked into the phase with high enough power that the heavy EMC filtering caps in the EV caused the charger to see a "leakage" to ground on the phase which was absent on the Neutral wire, hence the nuisance trips of the GFI circuit in the charger. NOTE that GFI in an EV charging is a *very* safe circuit, because it is required for safety certification that the GFI circuit is verified to detect a fault current after *every* charging session or on a regular schedule, I believe once a day. So, every charger with safety marking has a "fault-generating" circuit built-in that causes a 20mA fault current through the Current Transformer that detect the GFI. Usually this is a separate wire from the high power wire, specifically to induce the fault current without affecting the charging cable. On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 12:43 PM Lee Hart via EV wrote: > > Cor van de Water wrote: > > my garage has a GFCI circuit. As a consequence, I cannot use > > my garage to do any development work, because as soon as > > I plug in one of my HP power supplies, even before I turn it on, > > the heavy capacitive filtering on the AC line will trip the GFCI > > because it indeed creates a current to ground. > > The easy answer is a big isolation transformer. I have some big 1KW ones that > I use. (If anyone needs one, I have many, holding down the basement floor). > > > If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have > > a breaker) that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit. > > The original idea for a GFCI was safety; to keep people from being > electrocuted (i.e. junior sticks a fork in the toaster with one hand to get > his bread out, while the other hand is resting on the grounded sink. The 5mA > limit was chosen as the maximum current that a normal healthy person would > survive, since they can let go and jump away from the source of the shock. In > medical settings, an even lower limit of 0.5mA was required, on the basis > that hospital patients may well not be able to remove themselves from the > source of the shock. > > But these limits proved to be hard to design for. So manufacturers have > lobbied for higher limits of 50mA. That's more than enough to kill a person. > Yet the last I knew, our EVs are being designed to allow up to 50mA of ground > leakage before their GFCI trips. > > 500mA for a GFCI limit? Gah! That would not only kill someone, but *cook* > them as well! > -- > Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James > -- > Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com > > If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have > a breaker) that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit. > This is only used in industrial settings where a lower limit will > indeed trip guaranteed. > > On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:50 AM (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > > > > Keep in mind that excepting North America, only (part of) Japan uses a > > lower voltage. In the US (residential) system, no conductor is ever over > > about 160v peak-to-peak with respect to ground, whereas in NZ/EU you are > > getting over 300v P-P, which is arguably 4 times more lethal. I'd > > definitely want everything protected by GFCI/RCD if I had those voltages > > everywhere. > > > > On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:25 AM EV List Lackey via EV > > wrote: > > > > > On 10 Mar 2024 at 23:41, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > > > > > > > Based on what I know, [the US NEC is] one of the most rigorous codes in > > > > the world. > > > > > > Agreed. I've seen some ... interesting ... wiring practices elsewhere, > > > including Spain, Italy, France, Canary Islands, Puerto Rico, and South > > > Korea. > > > > > > Some of them look like old USA practices. Example: junction boxes aren't > > > usually used for surface mounted luminaires in France. The cable or smurf > > > tubing emerges from the
Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)
As far as I know, Edison decided on 110VDC (That's why people in the US constantly refer to it as "110" when it's not been that way for over a century), as that was high enough to make conductors reasonable, but not terribly lethal, (so he claimed) light bulb filaments could bear it, and switchgear could handle the arcs. When AC came along, to preserve the same light bulbs, they matched Edison's DC. (RMS) It started off as 110VAC, and slowly rose over the years until it was made official in ANSI C81.1 in the early 1950's as 120VAC. On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 1:35 PM Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote: > > We have 240 volt systems of course (stove/dryer and less common nema 6-15 > etc..). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think at least some of the > non-us households ONLY have 240 volts (i.e they don't bring 480 into the > panel and have split transformers like we have but rather they groundone > leg as a neutral) > > That means our 240 has a slight advantage in that each leg is only 120v > above ground, while I think some countries have a 240 with a hot and > neutralleg. > > >On Monday, March 11, 2024, 12:46:12 PM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV < > ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > > I'm sure that there must be good reasons that the US chose 120 volts and > most of the rest of the world chose 240 volts, but I don't know what they > are. > > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > Talking about the contents of this poster is illegal. > It is important that you share this information with > colleagues and neighbors, and discuss it with your > family. Failure to do so may lead to prosecution. > For more information please reread. > > -- Scarfolk Council poster > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240311/36f914a0/attachment.htm > > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240311/a7a44022/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)
We have 240 volt systems of course (stove/dryer and less common nema 6-15 etc..). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think at least some of the non-us households ONLY have 240 volts (i.e they don't bring 480 into the panel and have split transformers like we have but rather they groundone leg as a neutral) That means our 240 has a slight advantage in that each leg is only 120v above ground, while I think some countries have a 240 with a hot and neutralleg. On Monday, March 11, 2024, 12:46:12 PM PDT, EV List Lackey via EV wrote: I'm sure that there must be good reasons that the US chose 120 volts and most of the rest of the world chose 240 volts, but I don't know what they are. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Talking about the contents of this poster is illegal. It is important that you share this information with colleagues and neighbors, and discuss it with your family. Failure to do so may lead to prosecution. For more information please reread. -- Scarfolk Council poster = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240311/36f914a0/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)
On 11 Mar 2024 at 12:05, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: > As a consequence of the higher voltage, the current is lower for the > same power and where I hear a lot about electrical fires in the USA, > that is a rarity in Europe ... The higher domestic voltage also allows for more powerful appliances. A typical French (and I assume most of EU, perhaps Asia) home receptacle circuit can supply 3.8kW, compared to 2.4kW in the US, so over 50% more. Plug connected space heaters and flatirons are typically 2kW, rather than the usual 1.2kw or 1.5kW in the US. An EV "granny cord" connected to a household or garage wall receptacle delivers 2.3kW. A Dacia Spring will charge in ~11 hours at that rate, so it's practical. You can also use ligher wire (less copper, lower cost) for the circuit wiring, and for the appliance cables. And for a given size, there's less loss (waste heat, inefficiency) from wiring resistance. I'm sure that there must be good reasons that the US chose 120 volts and most of the rest of the world chose 240 volts, but I don't know what they are. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Talking about the contents of this poster is illegal. It is important that you share this information with colleagues and neighbors, and discuss it with your family. Failure to do so may lead to prosecution. For more information please reread. -- Scarfolk Council poster = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)
Cor van de Water wrote: > my garage has a GFCI circuit. As a consequence, I cannot use > my garage to do any development work, because as soon as > I plug in one of my HP power supplies, even before I turn it on, > the heavy capacitive filtering on the AC line will trip the GFCI > because it indeed creates a current to ground. The easy answer is a big isolation transformer. I have some big 1KW ones that I use. (If anyone needs one, I have many, holding down the basement floor). > If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have > a breaker) that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit. The original idea for a GFCI was safety; to keep people from being electrocuted (i.e. junior sticks a fork in the toaster with one hand to get his bread out, while the other hand is resting on the grounded sink. The 5mA limit was chosen as the maximum current that a normal healthy person would survive, since they can let go and jump away from the source of the shock. In medical settings, an even lower limit of 0.5mA was required, on the basis that hospital patients may well not be able to remove themselves from the source of the shock. But these limits proved to be hard to design for. So manufacturers have lobbied for higher limits of 50mA. That's more than enough to kill a person. Yet the last I knew, our EVs are being designed to allow up to 50mA of ground leakage before their GFCI trips. 500mA for a GFCI limit? Gah! That would not only kill someone, but *cook* them as well! -- Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James -- Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have a breaker) that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit. This is only used in industrial settings where a lower limit will indeed trip guaranteed. On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:50 AM (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > > Keep in mind that excepting North America, only (part of) Japan uses a > lower voltage. In the US (residential) system, no conductor is ever over > about 160v peak-to-peak with respect to ground, whereas in NZ/EU you are > getting over 300v P-P, which is arguably 4 times more lethal. I'd > definitely want everything protected by GFCI/RCD if I had those voltages > everywhere. > > On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:25 AM EV List Lackey via EV > wrote: > > > On 10 Mar 2024 at 23:41, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > > > > > Based on what I know, [the US NEC is] one of the most rigorous codes in > > > the world. > > > > Agreed. I've seen some ... interesting ... wiring practices elsewhere, > > including Spain, Italy, France, Canary Islands, Puerto Rico, and South > > Korea. > > > > Some of them look like old USA practices. Example: junction boxes aren't > > usually used for surface mounted luminaires in France. The cable or smurf > > tubing emerges from the ceiling or wall. > > > > I've seen single conductors run through ceramic cleats on the ceiling > > surface in South Korea, similar to early 20th century US wiring. It > > appeared > > to be a recent installation. > > > > Service capacities are also lower. A typical western EU service will be > > 6kW > > or 12kW, a size the US hasn't seen in probably 70 years. Spain has a lot > > of > > 3kW services. I'm sure that that's a problem for EV home charging there. > > > > On the other hand, as Bill says about NZ, in most (all?) western EU > > nations, > > the whole house is GFI (RCD) protected at 30ma leakage current. > > > > David Roden, EVDL moderator general lackey > > > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my > > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > > > Interpreter: One who enables two persons of different languages > > to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have > > been to the interpreter's advantage for the other to have said. > > > > -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > > > ___ > > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > > > > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)
Phil wrote: > no conductor is ever over about 160v peak-to-peak with respect to ground I agree, but with one little nit to pick. My AC line voltage is normally 120vac, and varies from about 115v to 124v depending on the current grid loading. The peak of 124vac is actually 170v; a situation that occurs here pretty often. In fact, I had to add a 6v buck transformer between my PV inverter and grid (so it sees 114v when the grid is 120v). The inverter trips off if the grid hits 126vac, which happened often enough to need the buck transformer. You are exactly right on US NEC codes. They are written for fire and insurance purposes, not electrical safety. Enforcement is also more bureaucratic than technically accurate. -- Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James -- Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)
As a consequence of the higher voltage, the current is lower for the same power and where I hear a lot about electrical fires in the USA, that is a rarity in Europe, while here in the USA I personally know of two people who had a starting electrical fire in a power strip, one could barely keep the flames from setting the bedroom on fire. Going back to GFCI: my garage has a GFCI circuit. As a consequence, I cannot use my garage to do any development work, because as soon as I plug in one of my HP power supplies, even before I turn it on, the heavy capacitive filtering on the AC line will trip the GFCI because it indeed creates a current to ground. Though it is not leakage, it is actually intentional because this is how you squelch EMC emissions on the power line. And how you trip the GFCI. I need to run an extension cord from a non-GFCI circuit to avoid that the lab power supply trips the GFCI, talk about nuisance trips! If I am not mistaken, the NEC has a class of GFCI (and I used to have a breaker) that trips at 50mA, I believe there is even a 500mA limit. This is only used in industrial settings where a lower limit will indeed trip guaranteed. On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:50 AM (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > > Keep in mind that excepting North America, only (part of) Japan uses a > lower voltage. In the US (residential) system, no conductor is ever over > about 160v peak-to-peak with respect to ground, whereas in NZ/EU you are > getting over 300v P-P, which is arguably 4 times more lethal. I'd > definitely want everything protected by GFCI/RCD if I had those voltages > everywhere. > > On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:25 AM EV List Lackey via EV > wrote: > > > On 10 Mar 2024 at 23:41, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > > > > > Based on what I know, [the US NEC is] one of the most rigorous codes in > > > the world. > > > > Agreed. I've seen some ... interesting ... wiring practices elsewhere, > > including Spain, Italy, France, Canary Islands, Puerto Rico, and South > > Korea. > > > > Some of them look like old USA practices. Example: junction boxes aren't > > usually used for surface mounted luminaires in France. The cable or smurf > > tubing emerges from the ceiling or wall. > > > > I've seen single conductors run through ceramic cleats on the ceiling > > surface in South Korea, similar to early 20th century US wiring. It > > appeared > > to be a recent installation. > > > > Service capacities are also lower. A typical western EU service will be > > 6kW > > or 12kW, a size the US hasn't seen in probably 70 years. Spain has a lot > > of > > 3kW services. I'm sure that that's a problem for EV home charging there. > > > > On the other hand, as Bill says about NZ, in most (all?) western EU > > nations, > > the whole house is GFI (RCD) protected at 30ma leakage current. > > > > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey > > > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my > > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt > > > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > > > Interpreter: One who enables two persons of different languages > > to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have > > been to the interpreter's advantage for the other to have said. > > > > -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > > > ___ > > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > > > > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240311/547aeff3/attachment.htm> > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)
Keep in mind that excepting North America, only (part of) Japan uses a lower voltage. In the US (residential) system, no conductor is ever over about 160v peak-to-peak with respect to ground, whereas in NZ/EU you are getting over 300v P-P, which is arguably 4 times more lethal. I'd definitely want everything protected by GFCI/RCD if I had those voltages everywhere. On Mon, Mar 11, 2024 at 10:25 AM EV List Lackey via EV wrote: > On 10 Mar 2024 at 23:41, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > > > Based on what I know, [the US NEC is] one of the most rigorous codes in > > the world. > > Agreed. I've seen some ... interesting ... wiring practices elsewhere, > including Spain, Italy, France, Canary Islands, Puerto Rico, and South > Korea. > > Some of them look like old USA practices. Example: junction boxes aren't > usually used for surface mounted luminaires in France. The cable or smurf > tubing emerges from the ceiling or wall. > > I've seen single conductors run through ceramic cleats on the ceiling > surface in South Korea, similar to early 20th century US wiring. It > appeared > to be a recent installation. > > Service capacities are also lower. A typical western EU service will be > 6kW > or 12kW, a size the US hasn't seen in probably 70 years. Spain has a lot > of > 3kW services. I'm sure that that's a problem for EV home charging there. > > On the other hand, as Bill says about NZ, in most (all?) western EU > nations, > the whole house is GFI (RCD) protected at 30ma leakage current. > > David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey > > To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my > offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt > > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > Interpreter: One who enables two persons of different languages > to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have > been to the interpreter's advantage for the other to have said. > > -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240311/547aeff3/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)
On 10 Mar 2024 at 23:41, (-Phil-) via EV wrote: > Based on what I know, [the US NEC is] one of the most rigorous codes in > the world. Agreed. I've seen some ... interesting ... wiring practices elsewhere, including Spain, Italy, France, Canary Islands, Puerto Rico, and South Korea. Some of them look like old USA practices. Example: junction boxes aren't usually used for surface mounted luminaires in France. The cable or smurf tubing emerges from the ceiling or wall. I've seen single conductors run through ceramic cleats on the ceiling surface in South Korea, similar to early 20th century US wiring. It appeared to be a recent installation. Service capacities are also lower. A typical western EU service will be 6kW or 12kW, a size the US hasn't seen in probably 70 years. Spain has a lot of 3kW services. I'm sure that that's a problem for EV home charging there. On the other hand, as Bill says about NZ, in most (all?) western EU nations, the whole house is GFI (RCD) protected at 30ma leakage current. David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it. Use my offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Interpreter: One who enables two persons of different languages to understand each other by repeating to each what it would have been to the interpreter's advantage for the other to have said. -- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary" = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array
The AHJ generally enforces the code, which specifically allows loading a busbar with 120% of its rating when backfeeding solar into it. So it depends on what you define as "correct". Following the code, or following the laws of physics.I hate to admit it, but there are many things in the code that are not based on the laws of physics. I've been doing solar for 25+ years now, and also know a bunch of people on code writing panels, and have learned that writing the code is much like writing legislation, lots of special interests and political lobbying -- it's not just a bunch of engineers or physicists sitting around deciding what is the safest way to build something. On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 10:57 PM Lawrence Winiarski via EV < ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote: > My AHJ nor my brothers did not enforce it so we've had a different > experience. > > >On Sunday, March 10, 2024 at 10:45:01 PM PDT, (-Phil-) < > p...@ingineerix.com> wrote: > > The NEC definitely accounts for this since 2011, and I know from > experience AHJs enforce it. (705.12 D 2) > > There are 2 ways:1. Derate: Replace the main with a lower amperage, or:2. > End Feed: Install the solar breaker at the opposite end of the busbars and > put a sign that states: "SOLAR PV BREAKER - BREAKER IS BACKFED, DO NOT > RELOCATE!" > Most brands of panels also now over-rate the busbars for this reason on at > least some of their models. > > On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 9:52 PM Lawrence Winiarski < > lawrence_winiar...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > I'm going to chime in with a point. Probably plenty all ready know it, > but maybe some don't. > Virtually all home solar is actually kind of technically violating some > electrical rules. The reason is thatbreakers were not intended to be used > to back feed power, but that is the easiest way, so the code peopleactually > look the other way. > > The problem is as follows. > Imagine a 200 amp panel for you house.It has a big 200 amp breaker at > the top and the bus bars are designed to handle 200 amps.Further imagine > that you have a 40 amp solar. > So imagine you have no solar (it's dark) and you turn on every appliance > and you are drawing 200 amps. (or a tiny bit less).No problem as the > main breaker (the 200amp one) doesn't flip yet. Now turn on the 40 > amps of solar and now the main breaker is only seeing 160 amps (160 from > the power company and 40 from the solar is going into your appliances. > But the important thing is the bus bars are still seeing (or potentially > seeing 200 amps).Now start charging your EV (say it's 40 amps) so > now the bus bars are seeing 240 amps and the main breaker STILL doesn't > flip (because it's now it only sees 200 amps. > So you are technically over powering the panel bus bars more than they are > rated for. > The proper solution is actually to put in a NEW main breaker of 160 amps > but almost nobody does that. > > But the reality is the code people fudge it and allow 20% but it's not > really correct. > Anyway I'm guessing this has something to do with your adding outlets to a > solar panel not being entirely kosher. > > > > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240311/dc15b180/attachment.htm > > > ___ > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org > No other addresses in TO and CC fields > HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ > > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240311/2205efaa/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
[EVDL] Conclusion: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array
Thanks Zeke, Phil, Bill etc for the thoughtful responses. In conclusion it appears that an outlet whether 120VAC (standard GFCI outlet) or 240VAC (14/50 for EV) can be tapped off a solar 50A branch circuit with an appropriate 20A or 50A breaker at any outlet. I can't send my schematic (showing "combiner" breaker box or sub panel at array) , but would be obvious, pictures speak 1000 words. The bottom line is I always *submit* my schematic to the AHJ in order for the homeowner to obtain an electrical permit *prior* to any wiring. As long as the AHJ stamps "Approved" on my schematic - I'm good. Have a renewable energy day, Mark Mark E. Hanson 184 Vista Lane Fincastle, VA 24090 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell REEVA: community service RE & EV project club Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery) UL Certified PV Installer My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh REEVA Demo: <http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0> http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0 <https://www.weatherlink.com/embeddablePage/show/a88920376f864ecabaed843dd89 75b8d/signature> Fincastle Solar Weather Station Message: 4 Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2024 15:55:29 -0700 From: Zeke Yewdall mailto:zyewd...@gmail.com> > To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array Message-ID: mailto:CAFpyUpVCK=tx48gygbyryeajxwc8imt7shhyzglueyaz8rv...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I believe the way to do it codewise would be to add a subpanel at the base of the solar array, with a breaker in it feeding the dedicated solar circuit (the inverter or inverters -- often I end up with multiple inverters to get to 50A anyway unless using a single 11.4kW, so am adding an inverter combiner panel for that reason) and a breaker feeding the EV charging outlet. It's legal to connect the PV to a subpanel, or a series of subpanels, as long as you follow the 120% rule all the way back through every panel along the way. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240311/590cbd9b/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)
When I put my solar in about five years ago, I took the "opportunity" to replace my 100A Zinsco main panel with a 200A Siemens main panel. On the new panel, the main breaker is at the bottom of the panel and the panel was marked that it was required to hook up solar to the top of the panel (breakers 1 & 2). Jim Walls -Original Message- From: "Bill Dube via EV" I suppose where you place the solar breaker in the panel might matter, somewhat. It would likely be best if you placed the solar breaker on the far end, away from the main breaker. Thus, no portion of the bus bar would be subject to more amps than the main breaker current. (Think about this for a moment or two.) ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
Re: [EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)
I don't know if most know this, but the NEC (National Electrical Code) is written by the NFPA (National Fire Protection Association). That is an organization mainly driven by fire insurance underwriters. We thus have an electrical code carefully constructed and revised to reduce insurance claims, regardless of cost or complexity. Based on what I know, it's one of the most rigorous codes in the world. Individual States and local AHJs (Authorities Having Jurisdiction) decide which version of the NEC to enforce, and sometimes add or modify it for particular local conditions and practices. Even if you live in an area without much enforcement, if you ever have a fire because you did some shortcut in violation of NEC, you can bet the insurance investigator will find it, as they spend a lot of time and effort to find ways to deny claims. On Sun, Mar 10, 2024 at 11:24 PM Bill Dube via EV wrote: > First, breakers themselves really don't care which way the power is > flowing. I can't think of anything about a breaker that would behave > differently if the power flows in or out of the bus bars. > > VERY large breakers need power on the input side to rewind the trip > mechanism. Even then, you simply must rewind them with the manual crank > if you are in a no power situation. (You can't reset them if they aren't > rewound.) Aside from that, they also don't care which way the power flows. > > I can't recall ever seeing a bus bar overheat due to overloading. I > suspect that the bus bars can take far more than the main breaker > current. Keep in mind that temperature is the issue. The ohmic heating > and the ambient temperature must cause the bus bar to rise to the point > where the insulation will be damaged. Each breaker that you attach to > the bus bar will both draw more current (perhaps) but will also help > wick heat away from the bus bar. > > I suppose where you place the solar breaker in the panel might matter, > somewhat. It would likely be best if you placed the solar breaker on the > far end, away from the main breaker. Thus, no portion of the bus bar > would be subject to more amps than the main breaker current. (Think > about this for a moment or two.) > > Even if you were to put the solar breaker in the middle of the panel, > the bus bars are not very likely to see a load greater than the main > breaker current, because the circuits between the solar breaker and the > main are drawing current. This draw is likely to be more than the solar > breaker is supplying to the panel. Typically (but not always) it is > general practice to install the larger current breakers near the top of > the panel, near the main breaker. > > I would guess that under any normal circumstances, the odds of a bus > bar over load are vanishingly small, particularly if you don't place the > solar breaker near the very top of the panel. > > Bill D. > > On 3/11/2024 5:52 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote: > > I'm going to chime in with a point. Probably plenty all ready know it, > but maybe some don't. > > Virtually all home solar is actually kind of technically violating some > electrical rules. The reason is thatbreakers were not intended to be used > to back feed power, but that is the easiest way, so the code peopleactually > look the other way. > > > > The problem is as follows. > > Imagine a 200 amp panel for you house.It has a big 200 amp breaker > at the top and the bus bars are designed to handle 200 amps.Further imagine > that you have a 40 amp solar. > > So imagine you have no solar (it's dark) and you turn on every appliance > and you are drawing 200 amps. (or a tiny bit less).No problem as the > main breaker (the 200amp one) doesn't flip yet. Now turn on the 40 > amps of solar and now the main breaker is only seeing 160 amps (160 from > the power company and 40 from the solar is going into your appliances. > But the important thing is the bus bars are still seeing (or potentially > seeing 200 amps).Now start charging your EV (say it's 40 amps) so > now the bus bars are seeing 240 amps and the main breaker STILL doesn't > flip (because it's now it only sees 200 amps. > > So you are technically over powering the panel bus bars more than they > are rated for. > > The proper solution is actually to put in a NEW main breaker of 160 amps > but almost nobody does that. > > > > But the reality is the code people fudge it and allow 20% but it's not > really correct. > > Anyway I'm guessing this has something to do with your adding outlets to > a solar panel not being entirely kosher. > > > > -- next part -- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > ht
[EVDL] OT Solar Electrical Issues (was: Adding a 14/50 EV courtesy outlet to a solar array)
First, breakers themselves really don't care which way the power is flowing. I can't think of anything about a breaker that would behave differently if the power flows in or out of the bus bars. VERY large breakers need power on the input side to rewind the trip mechanism. Even then, you simply must rewind them with the manual crank if you are in a no power situation. (You can't reset them if they aren't rewound.) Aside from that, they also don't care which way the power flows. I can't recall ever seeing a bus bar overheat due to overloading. I suspect that the bus bars can take far more than the main breaker current. Keep in mind that temperature is the issue. The ohmic heating and the ambient temperature must cause the bus bar to rise to the point where the insulation will be damaged. Each breaker that you attach to the bus bar will both draw more current (perhaps) but will also help wick heat away from the bus bar. I suppose where you place the solar breaker in the panel might matter, somewhat. It would likely be best if you placed the solar breaker on the far end, away from the main breaker. Thus, no portion of the bus bar would be subject to more amps than the main breaker current. (Think about this for a moment or two.) Even if you were to put the solar breaker in the middle of the panel, the bus bars are not very likely to see a load greater than the main breaker current, because the circuits between the solar breaker and the main are drawing current. This draw is likely to be more than the solar breaker is supplying to the panel. Typically (but not always) it is general practice to install the larger current breakers near the top of the panel, near the main breaker. I would guess that under any normal circumstances, the odds of a bus bar over load are vanishingly small, particularly if you don't place the solar breaker near the very top of the panel. Bill D. On 3/11/2024 5:52 PM, Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote: I'm going to chime in with a point. Probably plenty all ready know it, but maybe some don't. Virtually all home solar is actually kind of technically violating some electrical rules. The reason is thatbreakers were not intended to be used to back feed power, but that is the easiest way, so the code peopleactually look the other way. The problem is as follows. Imagine a 200 amp panel for you house. It has a big 200 amp breaker at the top and the bus bars are designed to handle 200 amps.Further imagine that you have a 40 amp solar. So imagine you have no solar (it's dark) and you turn on every appliance and you are drawing 200 amps. (or a tiny bit less). No problem as the main breaker (the 200amp one) doesn't flip yet. Now turn on the 40 amps of solar and now the main breaker is only seeing 160 amps (160 from the power company and 40 from the solar is going into your appliances. But the important thing is the bus bars are still seeing (or potentially seeing 200 amps). Now start charging your EV (say it's 40 amps) so now the bus bars are seeing 240 amps and the main breaker STILL doesn't flip (because it's now it only sees 200 amps. So you are technically over powering the panel bus bars more than they are rated for. The proper solution is actually to put in a NEW main breaker of 160 amps but almost nobody does that. But the reality is the code people fudge it and allow 20% but it's not really correct. Anyway I'm guessing this has something to do with your adding outlets to a solar panel not being entirely kosher. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20240311/6489e531/attachment.htm> ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/ ___ Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org No other addresses in TO and CC fields HELP: http://www.evdl.org/help/
