Re: [EVDL] Tesla's Self Driving Feature

[Damon Henry via EV]

>I think that most Tesla devotees are either unaware of or underestimate the 
>level of distaste (to put it mildly) for Elon Musk that exists on the 
>periphery of EV interest.  

>I know, the plural of anecdote isn't data, but I see a lot of comments 
>online from thoughtful, reasonable people who'd like to own EVs, but aren't 
>at all keen on handing their money to Musk.  

Count my wife among one of these.  The first thing she said when she found out 
my son was buying a spiffy new Model 3 was that she did not want Elon Musk 
getting that money.  It surprised me, but she has a real distaste for Elon.

Personally I do not like the fact that Tesla seems to think they still own the 
car, even after they have sold it to you.  

I'm happy for now with my 2016 eGolf that I recently acquired.  It is so much 
better then anything I ever built myself and I would have to say better then 
any homebrew EVs I have been around, and I live 17 miles from my good friend 
John Wayland, so I have been around a lot of well done DIY EVs.  I'm totally 
done with DIY conversions.  By the time I am ready for my next OEM EV purchase 
I would expect there to be a much wider variety for me to chose from.  For that 
I owe Tesla and Elon a debt of gratitude :)

Damon

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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 105, Issue 7

[Damon Henry via EV]

This is not just a Telsa feature, I was surprised to have a similar experience 
in a Toyota Camry I recently rented.  I was impressed with how much better it 
kept the car centered in the lane of the freeway compared to my 2016 Prius 
Prime, they have really tightened things up.  I was even more surprised when 
approaching quickly slowing freeway traffic. It started to brake for me then 
chimed and let go of the brakes... I was paying close attention and took over 
the braking immediately, but in the 2016 version it would have completely 
stopped me if required...

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of Justin Kenny via EV 

Sent: Thursday, July 8, 2021 1:27 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Justin Kenny 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 105, Issue 7

Autopilot will only safely bring you to a stop if autopilot can remain
engaged according to its rules that entire time. If a driver engages
autopilot, and the Tesla determines that it is a situation it can't handle
(e.g. a sharp curve in the road), it will kick you out with very little
warning. I think this skews the autopilot safety results.. for truly
dangerous situations it can't handle, well surely autopilot wouldn't be
engaged in an accident, since it would have kicked the user out of it
moments before the problem. I use autopilot quite a lot and am happy with
its ability to reduce driving fatigue for long boring drives, but I would
never trust it to be totally failsafe if I didn't touch the wheel, I've had
to make a couple quick wheel grabs for the situations I described.

- Justin


> Message: 4
> Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2021 11:05:30 -0700
> From: "(-pEEf-)" 
> To: Peri Hartman , Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fwd: New York Times article about teen death by
> Tesla pic up truck on auto pilot is click bait.
> Message-ID:
>  bfkvaxzb1n8pkxbdz+k0qbxgk7...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> It does this already (somewhat).  If you don't acknowledge the attention
> "nag" it requests, which is to place some slight force on the wheel from
> time to time, it will set off an alarm and ask you to take over.  If you
> don't, it will turn on the hazard flashers and slow to a stop.   Of course
> it's possible to keep force on the wheel enough to satisfy the nag, and
> still not pay attention to the road.
>
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Re: [EVDL] Ford Fusion Plugin Hybrid

[Damon Henry via EV]

You are asking the right questions, but I do not have the answers for you on 
that model. I own Hyundai Sonata and Prius Prime plugin hybrids of those two 
Prius Prime would be the one that you want.  The only cold weather issue with 
that is that if you push the dash button for the Window Defrost the gas will 
kick on.  If you set the normal heat setting to the defrost position it does 
not.  You can preheat the cabin remotely on electric.  As with all EVs though 
you will have a significant range decrease in cold weather.

No heat in the Hyundai in the winter without the gas engine warming up first 

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of Robert Bruninga via EV 

Sent: Friday, February 5, 2021 9:41 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Robert Bruninga 
Subject: [EVDL] Ford Fusion Plugin Hybrid

What kind of plugin hybrid is the 2017 Ford Fusion?
Does it start up the gas engine when it is very very cold?
IE, in Alaska?

Does it have remote start (warm up on electric)?

I was all ready to go with a Toyota RAV4 Prime, but they dont sell them in
Alaska.

And have never looked at any other plugin hybrid so am starting from
scratch.

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Wanted: S10 EV

[Damon Henry via EV]

I have a 1970 Datsun conversion sitting in front of my house that I am 
considering getting rid of.  It's fully functional, but very limited range, and 
in need of lots of TLC.  If you are interested shoot me an email.  I don't have 
a specific price in mind, but I no longer have much passion for it and would 
love to pass it along to someone who could enjoy it.  Shoot me an email if you 
are interested.

http://evalbum.com/1524

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of Alan Arrison via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 7:54 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
Cc: Alan Arrison 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Wanted: S10 EV

It would help if you gave your location and rough price you are looking
to spend.

Also, are you able to do your own maintenance/repairs on an EV?

On 8/18/2020 12:08 AM, Jason Toberman via EV wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I am a new member to the list and an "aspiring S10 EV driver" I am looking
> to buy a factory built 1997 or 1998 chevy s10 ev. Potentially open to
> conversions - but really looking for an OEM one.
>
> If you have a s10 ev and are interested in selling it, please send me an
> email (tobes.evdriver at gmail.com) with some info on it and how much you
> want for it!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jason
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Re: [EVDL] Speaking of BB600s

[Damon Henry via EV]

I did a home Nickel plating kit back when I was using these.  It seemed to work 
well.  As I recall I spent about $200 on the kit and still have it sitting in 
my basement if I ever want to Nickel plate something.

Of course, I will never use this type of battery again because they are just 
plain messy and corrosive which causes all kinds of problems.  Same is true for 
flooded Lead Acids.  Lithium are so much better in so many ways 

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of David Kerzel via EV 

Sent: Monday, August 10, 2020 3:14 PM
To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' 
Cc: a...@bellsouth.net 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Speaking of BB600s

Look at caswell.com for electroless nickel plating kits.
If the copper is just a conductor, I don't care about tarnish on the
non-mating surfaces.
Where the bars meet, or the wires attach, polish the copper and use an
ant-ox compound.
I like brass bolts and nuts with flat brass washers.

David Kerzel
Modular EV Powe LLC

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Bill Collins via EV
Sent: Friday, August 7, 2020 5:27 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Bill Collins 
Subject: [EVDL] Speaking of BB600s



> If I wanted to make new copper busbars, would dipping them in solder
provide adequate protection or do they have to be nickel plated?
 I have never tried solder dipping, but I found a recipe for a plating
solution online and got the materials from Amazon.

Bill
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Re: [EVDL] [External] Re: [External] Re: Million Mile Battery

[Damon Henry via EV]

My son recently bought a used Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid.  It's a great EV for 30 
miles and a wonderful minivan after that.  Depending on your needs a PHEV can 
get you a lot of pure EV smiles while still doing everything else you need from 
an ICE.

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of Peri Hartman via EV 

Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2020 7:30 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Peri Hartman 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] [External] Re: [External] Re: Million Mile Battery

Yeah, depends a lot on need. I'm looking to replace my ancient minivan,
which I use to haul construction materials (e.g. plywood & debris), go
hiking & backpacking (high clearance and range needed), and misc other
activities. The Y isn't big enough for the construction stuff and
marginal for backpacking (with 4 people). It's expensive, too, but if it
had worked I would have bought it.

I've considered converting the minivan but it would cost at least $20K +
countless hours to get the main computer to shut up, and I'd still have
an old car.

Peri

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-- Original Message --
From: "George Mullineaux" 
To: "Peri Hartman" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
List" 
Sent: 13-Jun-20 12:04:49 AM
Subject: RE: [External] Re: [EVDL] [External] Re: Million Mile Battery

>Thanks,
>The Model Y claims 68 cu. ft, the X 88 cu. ft. and the Explorer 87.8 cu. ft. 
>It was this comparison that moved me more to the Model X. My wife hauls farm 
>supplies with her vehicle and will many times coordinate a trip to the grocery 
>store at the same time. With the rear seats folded away, I have seen her 
>completely fill her Silhouette van from front to rear. Takes me two trips to 
>the barn with a flat bed wheel-barrow, and a dozen or more trips to the house 
>to unload. I guess that over time, EVs will eventually be more affordable for 
>a larger segment of the population, and the technology and design will give a 
>wider selection of vehicles for various needs. Until then, those of us with 
>specific needs will have to either make our own EV or continue to drive ICE. 
>Right now, urban dwellers and commuters are the only segments of society that 
>are being targeted with affordable EV transportation.
>
>George Mullineaux
>3rd Shift Wrench Monkey
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: EV  On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via EV
>Sent: Friday, June 12, 2020 10:04
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
>Cc: Peri Hartman 
>Subject: [External] Re: [EVDL] [External] Re: Million Mile Battery
>
>Your statement is well said - for the present time. But in the near future, 
>with a battery that is substantially cheaper, the "stupid"
>statement might apply to a pretty broad sector where as now it applies only to 
>those who can pay somewhat more and need the kind of vehicles produced.
>
>In your case, Geroge, you might look at a Tesla Y. It's about $54K + local 
>taxes, thus a lot cheaper than the X. Has 300+ miles range. Good interior 
>storage space, though I don't know how it compares to an Explorer.
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "George Mullineaux via EV" 
>To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
>Cc: "George Mullineaux" 
>Sent: 11-Jun-20 9:02:40 PM
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] [External] Re: Million Mile Battery
>
>>The "people will be stupid if they buy ICE" statement is exactly what keeps 
>>EV people and ICE people separated. I drive ICE right now because there is no 
>>one that is producing an EV pick-up in the US that will work on my farm. I 
>>have researched the possibility of converting my F250, but have not found the 
>>best solution that will not cost the price of another used ICE. I earn the 
>>kind of money that allows us to drive 15-35 year old vehicles. My wife is 
>>needing another vehicle and I compared a Ford Explorer with a Tesla Model X 
>>that would be smaller but still close to the Explorer. However, $48,000 
>>compared to $82,000 will never cause me more than a split second of thought. 
>>Please remember some simple courtesies when posting. Everybody is not able to 
>>buy a new vehicle, let alone an EV. I am part of this forum to gain insight, 
>>and I would rather not be insulted.
>>
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: EV  On Behalf Of Mark Laity-Snyder via
>>EV
>>Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2020 11:06
>>To: ev@lists.evdl.org
>>Cc: Mark Laity-Snyder 
>>Subject: [External] Re: [EVDL] Million Mile Battery
>>
>>   >On 9 Jun 2020 at 9:52, moskowitz via EV wrote:
>>
>>>   Extending that lifespan is viewed as a key advance because the pack
>>>  could be reused in a second vehicle.
>>
>>>This sounds great IF IT ACTUALLY HAPPENS.  Still, I have some trouble
>>>seeing such a gigantic cycle life increase as a 

Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S After 'Audit'

[Damon Henry via EV]

I'm curious where the difference in information is coming from.  I have read a 
couple of different versions of the story and they explicitly stated that the 
feature was active.

I believe this is the original version I read.
jalopnik.com/tesla-remotely-removes-autopilot-features-from-customer-1841472617

It now contains this update at the bottom

Updated: Friday, February 7, 2020, 1:27 p.m. ET:

The dealership, United Traders, reached out to me to add some details and more 
information about the sale of the Tesla and what they knew of its features at 
the time of the sale:

I saw the Tesla story blowing up on your website and a few others as well. We 
are the dealership (United Traders) that sold the Tesla to Alec B_.

I bought that vehicle personally, and used the full self drive on it multiple 
times. It was working fine. One day, a random message popped up saying your 
autopilot has been upgraded after a software update. Then it disappeared. I 
figured it was a glitch. I already had an agreement with Alec to purchase the 
vehicle.

He did come and test drive it a few days later, and we both agreed it was a 
technical difficulty or bug that would be fixed by next software update. Since 
then Tesla has been of no assistance to him, and I have been doing my best to 
get him some help in this case.

I sell dozens of Teslas a year, and sold my father in law a Model X P90D with 
ludicrous speed package. 60 days after the purchase of the car, Tesla removed 
his ludicrous speed package. Upon complaints to them they said he never paid 
for it. We have video evidence and multiple pictures of the vehicle with it. 
They even removed the line under the P90D. I am still shocked at these acts.


From: paul dove 
Sent: Monday, February 10, 2020 10:34 AM
To: Damon Henry 
Cc: paul dove via EV ; EVDL Administrator 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S 
After 'Audit'

That’s not accurate. The feature was not there at the time of purchase.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 10, 2020, at 12:12 PM, Damon Henry  wrote:


That's a lot of churn on my original point.  Kia will not do this to you, Tesla 
will if they feel like it.  They get to set the rules, not you.  From the 
buyers perspective which is who I would be in this scenario.  A price was 
negotiated on a car with a certain set of features listed as being part of the 
purchase.  A few days after driving the car home features the buyer thought he 
had paid for were removed from the car by the manufacturer...  Someone will 
have to explain to me how I will know exactly what I am buying when I buy my 
used Tesla, which I very well may do some day.  Do I need to call Tesla ahead 
of time and verify every feature I think I am getting on my car?  Do I need to 
get it in writing from them???  Do they even have a process in place that I can 
access, or do they just get to make decisions with no thought towards the 
current "owner" of the car?

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of paul dove via EV 

Sent: Sunday, February 9, 2020 4:12 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: paul dove ; EVDL Administrator 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S 
After 'Audit'

Cable TV will shut you off in a heat beat if you aren’t paying for the service 
too. This doesn’t sound different they just did it after delivery to the 
dealer. It gave no impression the car had this when he purchased it from the 
used car dealer.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 9, 2020, at 5:54 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
>
> They  might as well sneak into his garage in the middle of the night and
> steal parts from the car.  The only difference between this and what GM did
> to their EV-1 lessees is the scale of the confiscation.  It's disgusting.
>
> And y'all wonder why I'll never buy a Tesla.  I admire the brilliant design
> and the positive PR for EVs, but I can't really own one, nor can you.
>
> Thanks for the EV boost, Mr Musk, but no thanks to your car.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: 
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> 

Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S After 'Audit'

[Damon Henry via EV]

That's a lot of churn on my original point.  Kia will not do this to you, Tesla 
will if they feel like it.  They get to set the rules, not you.  From the 
buyers perspective which is who I would be in this scenario.  A price was 
negotiated on a car with a certain set of features listed as being part of the 
purchase.  A few days after driving the car home features the buyer thought he 
had paid for were removed from the car by the manufacturer...  Someone will 
have to explain to me how I will know exactly what I am buying when I buy my 
used Tesla, which I very well may do some day.  Do I need to call Tesla ahead 
of time and verify every feature I think I am getting on my car?  Do I need to 
get it in writing from them???  Do they even have a process in place that I can 
access, or do they just get to make decisions with no thought towards the 
current "owner" of the car?

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of paul dove via EV 

Sent: Sunday, February 9, 2020 4:12 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: paul dove ; EVDL Administrator 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla Remotely Removed Autopilot Features from Used Model S 
After 'Audit'

Cable TV will shut you off in a heat beat if you aren’t paying for the service 
too. This doesn’t sound different they just did it after delivery to the 
dealer. It gave no impression the car had this when he purchased it from the 
used car dealer.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 9, 2020, at 5:54 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
>
> They  might as well sneak into his garage in the middle of the night and
> steal parts from the car.  The only difference between this and what GM did
> to their EV-1 lessees is the scale of the confiscation.  It's disgusting.
>
> And y'all wonder why I'll never buy a Tesla.  I admire the brilliant design
> and the positive PR for EVs, but I can't really own one, nor can you.
>
> Thanks for the EV boost, Mr Musk, but no thanks to your car.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: 
> https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.evdl.org%2Fhelp%2Fdata=02%7C01%7C%7C6e8b6d5e03a3484539ef08d7adf39055%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637169133923349392sdata=sdPpcUR3aVwwpAfymQtlhRRuJVNjWifae%2FJxqaF0J34%3Dreserved=0
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
> email address from the webpage 
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>  .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $45k Niro 64kWh liquid-cooled EV> novices can drive w/o learning EV-speak

[Damon Henry via EV]

Yes, but it is also being built by a well established automobile manufacturer 
with a dealership near you who will sell you the car and not treat you like 
they still own it.

I believe I would take the Tesla over Niro, but there are some definite 
downsides to dealing with Tesla.  Some of them are only going to get worse over 
time and possibly for second owners of vehicles.  I'm not sure if I will ever 
buy another brand new car (My 2001 Honda Insight is the only one so far) as I 
prefer slightly used so I pay attention to what it is like to be a second owner 
of a car.  I read an article just this week about Tesla doing an audit on a car 
that was sold to a person through a dealer with certain features enabled which 
were then shutoff a few days after the car was purchased used.  While it is 
cool that Tesla can enhance their vehicles over the air, the fact that it can 
work the other way around is a bit disconcerting.  If I buy something, I should 
be the owner.

My next EV is likely to be a used OEM model, and the more that are on the 
market, the better for me in terms of both price and selection.  So here's 
hoping Kia sells a ton of Niro's 

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of paul dove via EV 

Sent: Sunday, February 9, 2020 4:19 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: paul dove ; brucedp5 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: $45k Niro 64kWh liquid-cooled EV> novices can drive 
w/o learning EV-speak

Wow that cost as much as a model 3 with 2/3rds the range

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 9, 2020, at 12:20 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
>
> 
>
> https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.sandiegouniontribune.com%2Fcars%2Fstory%2F2020-02-02%2F2020-kia-niro-ev-239-miles-in-a-family-electricdata=02%7C01%7C%7C6536573ba83247a82f6e08d7ad6c0a38%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637168551850189462sdata=FMWcPnOwMWq2Ve%2BTqYV3Sm6ETe6a9dyQsWeTpbLAmsQ%3Dreserved=0
> 2020 Kia Niro EV: 239 miles in a family electric
> Feb. 2, 2020  Mark Maynard
>
> [images  / kia
> https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2Ffd%2F91%2Fcee2c5754721a2cf93f31806e9d1%2Fniroev-exterior.jpgdata=02%7C01%7C%7C6536573ba83247a82f6e08d7ad6c0a38%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637168551850189462sdata=hyBdnzieCSCPe1PNfMvn9qOd5mEWr%2BJlEEPBOFsiXYU%3Dreserved=0
> The Niro EV is sold in EX and EX Premium trim levels with starting prices of
> $39,545 and $45,045, including the $1,045 freight charge from Hwaseong,
> Korea
>
> https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fd3%2Fe0%2Fb2c0c3e04299882b8ef1b04aa7d3%2Fniroev-frontseats.jpgdata=02%7C01%7C%7C6536573ba83247a82f6e08d7ad6c0a38%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637168551850199469sdata=EJleqFQ4qKvVmzNnKZWZ6QZ8CYYlhflR0ZvNRcunXu8%3Dreserved=0
> There is enough cabin width for the space to allow intuitive placement of
> controls. Sightlines are unobstructed
>
> https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fdd%2Fc0%2F3ae1202c4a2190d3748da2c8d3fb%2Fniroev-gauges.jpgdata=02%7C01%7C%7C6536573ba83247a82f6e08d7ad6c0a38%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637168551850199469sdata=BOASOow%2FlR2mFUuGpp%2FEAoOSGgcvxRAvKxD%2FzuZZ0cs%3Dreserved=0
> The 7-inch gauge group has selectable views, including the driver’s
> efficiency rating
>
> https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F63%2Fa9%2F6edfcaf64d3b9c2a3d3a56282ca7%2Fniroev-centerstack.jpgdata=02%7C01%7C%7C6536573ba83247a82f6e08d7ad6c0a38%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637168551850199469sdata=amBcuNhYqUwH6JHM7FMs5ttRmtysq%2FVmctVT4baEZ8o%3Dreserved=0
> From top to bottom, the center stack is simple to see and access
>
> https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F1f%2F1a%2F039049f742a596fcd1d4b06bbaa6%2Fniroev-motor.jpgdata=02%7C01%7C%7C6536573ba83247a82f6e08d7ad6c0a38%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637168551850199469sdata=gwRACGc6%2FZyhtt1bMz%2FwaOPN1l995LAyFsx%2BRbhXR4g%3Dreserved=0
> The 201-horsepower, 356-volt permanent magnet synchronous motor put
> immediate power to the front wheels for brisk acceleration
>
> https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcalifornia-times-brightspot.s3.amazonaws.com%2F15%2F3c%2Fe215cac74b0d90c619228edca71b%2Fniroev-chargeport.jpgdata=02%7C01%7C%7C6536573ba83247a82f6e08d7ad6c0a38%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637168551850199469sdata=czNaavDZC3cZqAaTNglIipU2I1b7%2FAiHCuW8bPw6454%3Dreserved=0
> The onboard 7.2 kW charging system includes DC fast-charging, which Kia says
> can add around 100 miles in 30 minutes. But charging at home on 120 volts
> would take 59 hours!
>
> 

Re: [EVDL] E-Motorcycle battery source

[Damon Henry via EV]

I have 16 (well now 15 as one died) Calb 60 AH cells in my motorcycle.  
http://evalbum.com/497
I bought the cells from a local source, but they are not too hard to come by,  
at least they were not last time I was in the market.

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of Matthew Pitts via EV 

Sent: Thursday, September 5, 2019 6:41 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org 
Cc: Matthew Pitts 
Subject: [EVDL] E-Motorcycle battery source

Good evening (or morning, depending on where you are),

I'm looking for a source for 48v batteries for an E-Motorcycle project I'm 
going to work on this winter. I would prefer some form of Lithium chemistry 
battery, with somewhere between 20 and 40 kWh capacity. Any suggestions?

Matthew Pitts


--
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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[EVDL] V2G for my grid tied solar?

[Damon Henry via EV]

I know there has been a lot of churn the last few  years over Vehicle to Grid 
technology.  I'm not sure how many people really want the utilities to take 
over their vehicle state of charge, so I'm not sure how viable the whole 
concept is.

With my grid tied solar system my solar stops producing if the grid goes down.  
One way to prevent this is to have a battery backup system in place.  That's 
usually an investment of at least several thousand dollars.

I have two factory OEM PHEVs sitting in my driveway with significant battery 
packs.  I also have a Juicebox 40 for charging which has some charging 
intelligence already built into it for their Juicenet program, but not really 
V2G.  I feel like I am tantalizingly close to a great solution.

So here is the question that I have.  How far am I from being able to utilize 
my car batteries through the OEM port and an EVSE charger, to feed an inverter 
and keep my house alive and my solar producing during a power outage?  Is this 
tech currently being developed, or is it still just a dream that my come true 
some day?

BTW - I have lived in my house for 20+ years and rarely lose power, but "being 
prepared" is always on my agenda.  I suspect that if I really want a solution 
within the next couple of years I will need to buy a separate battery for my 
solar system, or a generator...

thanks
Damon
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Re: [EVDL] Does anyone really think Tesla can last?

[Damon Henry via EV]

I'm not really talking about Koch brother type media attacks, I'm talking 
specifically about finances.  I just don't know how long they can keep losing 
$7000 a minute before investors pull out and the whole house of cards come 
tumbling down.  I hope it does not happen.  I'm also not sure how long they can 
sell their luxury cars before everyone that wants one has one.  Even the Model 
3 is a non-starter for many car buyers.  The $35,000 version came and went in 
the blink of an eye.

I know they are modeled after tech companies and that the idea is to burn 
through the investors cash until you are big enough to sustain profits, but I 
cannot see any sustainable profits in their future.  They do have the burning 
through cash part down...

I hope I am wrong as I feel like Tesla is the company that allowed EVDL members 
to finally quit building their own contraptions just to commute in short range 
homebrew EVs.  I still have two of these in my stable.  I hope they reap the 
benefits of being the pioneers and game changers that they have been.

I just don't think that is a very likely outcome.

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of paul dove via EV 

Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2019 11:29 AM
To: EVDL Administrator via EV
Cc: paul dove
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Does anyone really think Tesla can last?

He already did that when he decided not to use dealerships. The rest is just 
hypestories about Tesla sell especially if they are negative. Trump tweets 
stupid stuff and derogatory remarks on a daily basis.


On Thursday, May 23, 2019, 1:23:22 PM CDT, EVDL Administrator via EV 
 wrote:

 I doubt that I'll ever buy a Tesla, for my own personal reasons, but I have
a huge amount of respect for Elon Musk, Tesla, Tesla's vehicles, and what
they've done to advance the EV cause.

But today Elon Musk is both Tesla's biggest strength and their biggest
liability.  If they fail, there's a very good chance that it'll be on his
head.  Musk keeps doing crazy, reckless, childish stuff.  Most of all, he
can't keep his mouth shut when he needs to.  And, to put it bluntly, he's a
world class jerk.

Musk is a genius, no question about that, but some of the very same
personality quirks he has that have dramatically advanced the EV cause and
made Tesla a success are now threatening to destroy his company and maybe
even harm EVs in general.

Musk should be kept as a creative force in Tesla, NOT pushed out the way
Apple did with Steve Jobs in 1985.  However, they can't let him continue to
be the company's public face.  They need a way to settle him down a little
and get him out of public view.  They can't continue to let him throw epic
tantrums and make ugly, bloody messes.  One of these days he's going to make
a mess that's impossible to clean up, or infuriate someone with real power,
and that will be the beginning of the end for Tesla.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Getting as efficient as possible by alignment.

[Damon Henry via EV]

Or perhaps less overall car life when the handling is wrong and you end up in a 
wreck :-)  It is like any engineering trade-off.  If you maximize for one 
parameter you give up something else.

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of Lawrence Rhodes via EV 

Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2019 3:22 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Lawrence Rhodes
Subject: [EVDL] Getting as efficient as possible by alignment.

Cor had mentioned his method to get the best efficiency by using toe out.  I am 
wondering within the, for instance, Nissan Leaf standard alignment requirements 
what are the most efficient numbers? Toe, camber and caster. I would think if 
you get the perfect numbers not only will you get more range but longer tire 
life. Lawrence Rhodes
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[EVDL] Does anyone really think Tesla can last?

[Damon Henry via EV]

I'm a big Tesla fan and they have been mentioned in a couple of the recent 
ongoing threads quite a bit.  Personally I do not see how they can last.  I 
will be surprised if they are still in business in 5 years.  Their business 
model seems to be try to build enough hype to keep drawing in investors and 
don't worry about the fact that we are losing hundreds of millions of dollars a 
quarter year after year.  The Model 3 bump gave them a couple of quarters of 
profits and now they are right back where they started and likely worse.

I wonder what happens to the software updates and supercharger network when 
they are gone...

They have sold a lot of really great cars and forever changed the automotive 
marketplace.  I just don't see how they can last as a company.

If they do fail, there will surely be Tesla DIY internet resources that dwarf 
anything the EVDL has ever been 

Damon


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Re: [EVDL] % Google Maps is NOT a reliable tool to find EVSE % (goog-pr)

[Damon Henry via EV]

I'm not sure EV charging stations will ever be as prolific as gas stations are 
now.  There will always be a significant amount of people who charge primarily 
at home, so the demand will be less... Don't know if that is good or bad, but I 
know very few people have their own gas pumps.

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of EVDL Administrator via EV 

Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2019 10:39 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] % Google Maps is NOT a reliable tool to find EVSE % 
(goog-pr)

On 1 May 2019 at 18:53, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> Presumably you tried fr.chargemap.com, not chargemap.com

Thanks for pointing that out!  Actually I was using chargemap.com, which
starts off centered on Germany.

At your suggestion I tried fr.chargemap.com, which saves lots of clicking
and dragging because it's centered on France.  It locates exactly the same
EVSEs, which I guess makes sense.

> I also found this one: 
> www.bornes-recharge.net  I have no idea if 
> it's
> better.

www.bornes-recharge.net says "This map is 
provided by Chargemap."  So I
assume it will be the same.

I guess we're all looking forward to the time when public EVSEs are as
numerous and accessable as filling stations are now, and you can expect to
find at least one at nearly every highway junction.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] VW got their Paddy Wacked

[Damon Henry via EV]

Just remember Lawrence the first rule of Dad Jokes is "If it makes YOU laugh it 
is worth saying."  Whether the audience gets it or not is totally irrelevant :)

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of Lawrence Rhodes via EV 

Sent: Wednesday, April 24, 2019 12:11 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Lawrence Rhodes
Subject: Re: [EVDL] VW got their Paddy Wacked


As a result of the VW Diesel debacle VW was forced to pay restitution.  One 
form is charging stations.  Rather than advertising that EV's are good(another 
form of restitution) which would be now to VW's advantage as more EVs means 
more profit from charging I would rather have a free charge on their dime. That 
is the bone this dog wants.  Lawrence Rhodes...I thought it was a cleaver play 
on words(Nick Knack Paddy Wack give your dog a bone) but it seems not everyone 
got it/know the rhyme/have a sense of humor.
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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 78, Issue 23

[Damon Henry via EV]

I recently read a similar article and had a similar reaction.  That being that 
people who are willing to invest in an EV at this point are also more likely to 
invest in renewables.  Count me as a yes.  I installed 26 305 watt solar panels 
last summer and smile every time the sun is out and I plug my car in   It 
tickles me to no end knowing that the energy is literally flowing from my 
rooftop directly into my EV.  I have the same reaction with my corded electric 
lawn mower.

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of Mark Laity-Snyder via EV 

Sent: Monday, April 22, 2019 5:07 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Mark Laity-Snyder
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 78, Issue 23

https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.realclearenergy.org%2Farticles%2F2019%2F04%2F19%2Felectric_car_subsidies_arent_all_theyre_cracked_up_to_be_110427.htmldata=02%7C01%7C%7C9f7f7211ee1744d7a22808d6c71b1966%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636915316530737148sdata=B9MdLSxReHYVvw0V7wK93%2FQJwgKDv%2F6Tkswe9VPtGfk%3Dreserved=0
Electric Car Subsidies Aren't All They're Cracked Up to Be
April 19, 2019 ... The EV tax credit, which has been around since 2008,
offers consumers a subsidy of up to $7,500 off the price of a qualifying EV
...
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fassets.realclear.com%2Fimages%2F46%2F469842.jpgdata=02%7C01%7C%7C9f7f7211ee1744d7a22808d6c71b1966%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636915316530737148sdata=75ggOVZHx8w5WfWoRnKETaxaJydij5%2F8QjzzVUXDo0Y%3Dreserved=0

A Straw Poll:
How many of you EVangelists charge your cars using renewable power?  The 
article above sited a study that electric cars will not help the environment I 
am assuming because they assume EVs are being charged from power from the power 
company (which in my area means coal fired power plants).  I do agree with the 
premise that the EV subsidy helps wealthier people more than poor folks, since 
if you can afford a brand new Tesla, you have some cash.  But that study sited 
is very suspect.  Most of the people I know around here that have EVs also have 
at least some solar.  While a few have more solar than they can ever hope to 
use themselves (Mark Hanson: take a bow).
So I am just curious. What say you?

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Re: [EVDL] EVcrash avoided> Tesla-3 emerg-brake-sys threads-icy-needle= life-saved (v)

[Damon Henry via EV]

The car in front of him seems to avoid the same problem without the Tesla 
Autopilot...

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of brucedp5 via EV 

Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2019 1:25 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: brucedp5
Subject: [EVDL] EVcrash avoided> Tesla-3 emerg-brake-sys threads-icy-needle= 
life-saved (v)



https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.teslarati.com%2Ftesla-model-3-automatic-emergency-braking-avoids-icy-collision-video%2Fdata=02%7C01%7C%7C6aa661986cb74944d1b408d68c15152f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636850419506064057sdata=ZTpxMBQ3ekNQ1jHNjMe%2FuOPrzl2z2m5briswQJSiGG0%3Dreserved=0
Tesla Model 3’s emergency braking system saves driver from icy collision
February 2, 2019  Simon Alvarez

[image  / thenext44/Reddit
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share  (w/ video)
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FTeslaModel3%2Fcomments%2Fakta6z%2Fthreading_the_needle_model_3_auto_braked_and_kept%2F%3Fref%3Dshare%26ref_source%3Dembed%26utm_content%3Dpoints%26utm_medium%3Dpost_embed%26utm_name%3Da749d60cf4e6427e876b84a753f6301d%26utm_source%3Dembedly%26utm_term%3Dakta6zdata=02%7C01%7C%7C6aa661986cb74944d1b408d68c15152f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636850419506064057sdata=cgrujJWkIoOmCBPqGMXrCmsB5QhSaAt%2FprmHGHfMKPw%3Dreserved=0
(Tesla Model 3’s automatic braking system in action)
Threading the needle. Model 3 auto braked and kept from sliding out,
avoiding a crash while driving too fast for conditions.
r/TeslaModel3  thenext44
]

A Tesla Model 3 owner is thanking his electric car’s emergency braking
system after a recent close call on a dangerous, icy highway. A video of the
nail-biting incident showed the electric sedan seemingly detecting and
anticipating a road hazard well ahead of time, allowing its driver to
successfully perform a “threading the needle” maneuver, avoiding a
potentially deadly crash in the process.

The short dashcam video showed the Tesla Model 3 navigating an icy highway
smoothly, before it braked and moved to the right just as a stopped
hatchback came into view. The Model 3 did not lose any traction when it
performed the maneuver, unlike a white sedan that almost spun out when it
evaded the vehicle.

In a post on the r/TeslaModel3 subreddit [
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FTeslaModel3%2Fcomments%2Fakta6z%2Fthreading_the_needle_model_3_auto_braked_and_kept%2F%3Fst%3DJRNGVHTL%26sh%3Ddf4ecd15data=02%7C01%7C%7C6aa661986cb74944d1b408d68c15152f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636850419506064057sdata=kB3PZhckB69Z4s%2FNssp6BE4H%2FSqA2Nt1tZUQlpPzfwM%3Dreserved=0
], Long Range Model 3 AWD owner u/thenext44 [
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fuser%2Fthenext44data=02%7C01%7C%7C6aa661986cb74944d1b408d68c15152f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636850419506064057sdata=PlEO2zg%2BqNu5j%2B3xgQKl491s%2FrTG8TTD%2Fh133Gjqz9A%3Dreserved=0
] noted that he felt his electric sedan start braking even before he saw the
stopped car on the road. Sharing his insights further, the Tesla enthusiast
noted that when he swerved to the right to avoid the other vehicle, he could
feel the Model 3 keeping itself in a straight line. This allowed the
electric car to avoid losing traction, similar to what happened to the white
sedan in front, which almost spun out when it tried to evade the stopped
car.

Due to the circumstances of the incident, the Model 3 owner admitted that he
was not really sure if Autopilot was engaged when his car’s emergency
braking system [
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.teslarati.com%2Ftesla-model-3-gets-cr-recommendation-update-reduces-braking-distance%2Fdata=02%7C01%7C%7C6aa661986cb74944d1b408d68c15152f%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636850419506064057sdata=ozIRuJjJyCHYv8m0jlX0sytUJopLD5rpyILe5Z49FaU%3Dreserved=0
] kicked into gear. Explaining further, the Tesla enthusiast explained that
the trip had been a six-hour drive, and that there have been times when
Autopilot disengaged due to the weather. That said, the Tesla community
member lightly stated that after he successfully threaded the needle, he
immediately felt relief.

Tesla’s vehicles are among the safest cars on the road today, and this has
been evident in the accolades the Model 3 has received since its release.
Last year alone, the Model 3 received a “superior” front crash avoidance
rating from the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS), a nonprofit
organization funded by auto insurers dedicated to reducing 

Re: [EVDL] Hyundai reveals full Kona EV U.S. prices - starting at $36, 450

[Damon Henry via EV]

The Portland auto show was this weekend and they had a good selection of the 
EVs on display.  I have to say, I am not a big fan of the Kona or it's sister 
the Kia Niro.  They are trying to market the Kona as an SUV, but it is 
certainly not that.  It is a small crossover that to me feels smaller inside 
than my wife's Prius Prime.  I'm just not a fan of this style of vehicle unless 
it comes with some extra ground clearance and all wheel drive.

Out of all the vehicles I hopped in, my favorite was the new Nissan Leaf, 
second would be the Hyundai Ionic.  I realize that neither of these offer the 
range of the Kona, but since I have my PHEVs for road trips that is not an 
issue for me.

I also did not like the Jaguar IPace for the same form factor reason.  Of 
course, I am talking about 3 different classes of EVs here, but if I were to 
buy anything now it would be the new Leaf, although I might not drive it on the 
hottest summer days :(  I'm in the Pacific Northwest so that is not as big of 
an issue around here.

I drove the Bolt at the car show last year, and was not blown away.  I liked it 
just fine, but I was immediately put off by the oddly narrow seats.  At 6'3" 
280 lbs I need a little more real estate than that to sit on.   It's weird that 
they made them so narrow, as there is still a decent size gap beside the edge 
of the seat and the door.

Of course, none of this matters to me now as I am not in the market for a new 
car, but I am trying to keep up to date so when these cars hit the used market 
in 2 or 3 years at half their current cost I can snatch one up.

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of Rush Dougherty via EV 

Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 5:18 PM
To: EVDL
Cc: Rush Dougherty
Subject: [EVDL] Hyundai reveals full Kona EV U.S. prices - starting at $36, 450

Here's a news item in my news feed that might be helpful to some of us EVer's...
I'm currently on the M3 waiting list and find that the wait is getting to be a
little long, so I'm actively looking at other EV's

https://electrek.co/2019/01/28/hyundai-kona-ev-us-pricing/

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719




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Re: [EVDL] (use del key, block brucedp email address, 4unwanted posts) EVcrash: ...

[Damon Henry via EV]

For years I automatically ignored all of Bruce's News Items as they were of no 
interest to me.  With all the OEM movement in the EV world the last couple of 
years I have had a change of heart and now scan each one and read many that I 
find interesting.  Bruce has been very consistent in how he handles this and a 
positive contributor to the EVDL.  I'm proof positive that there is no need to 
be annoyed by any of his posts.  Simply handle them in the way you feel 
appropriate.

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of brucedp5 via EV 

Sent: Friday, January 25, 2019 10:57 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: brucedp5
Subject: [EVDL] (use del key, block brucedp email address, 4unwanted posts) 
EVcrash: ...

> Rush complains ...
I'm tired of seeing all these reports about Tesla accidents ... I really see
no reason to have them part of our 'newsfeed'<


*Bottom line: each person can delete a post without reading it, or easier
still, block my email address, so as to not receive them.

Years ago, evdl members wanted to differentiate between the types of posts I
made to the evdl for EVangels (EV drivers who talk to the public), who
really need to know this stuff.

-Some evdl members opt to block my email address, and only look at my posts
if others are having a conversation about them (that way they are not
bothered).

-others wanted a way to use their email filters to control them. Thus, they
asked that I put  EVLN:  in the beginning of the subject specifically for
news feeds.

EVcrash, EVjobs, EV(whatever) in the subject line are purposely separate, as
they are not news, but EV points of interest to some.

https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Felectric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com%2Ftemplate%2FNamlServlet.jtp%3Fmacro%3Dsearch_page%26node%3D413529%26query%3DEVcrash%26days%3D0%26sort%3Ddatedata=02%7C01%7C%7C7aec74b292b0455f2f1908d682f6fac1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636840394608065861sdata=JAJh%2Fz1BS1pUBpnGzv%2FCuymONrkp92HHzwX2AiSy1bI%3Dreserved=0
-Crash reports of EVs and their cause help EVangels educate the public, as
the media only spreads misinformation and opinion not facts about EV
crashes. Getting the truth out helps offset that.
In Tesla-S sales beginnings, there were so many spectacular crashes that
were whipped up by the media, I was wondering if the anti-EV forces were
causing them.
Another reason to post an EVcrash is for evdl archival purposes. (imo) A
serious reduction of EV crashes are being reported now. This means to me, an
improvements in EV designs, which is good news EVangels will want to pass on
to the public.
However, more and more, these crashes are pointing to that idiots should not
be allowed to drive performance cars (human error from hormone drunk teen
drivers etc.).


https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Felectric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com%2Ftemplate%2FNamlServlet.jtp%3Fmacro%3Dsearch_page%26node%3D413529%26query%3DEVjobs%26sort%3Ddatedata=02%7C01%7C%7C7aec74b292b0455f2f1908d682f6fac1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636840394608065861sdata=Aqca0F4INTadwdI88IZLMQVBvCSfBs%2BXjY%2B9Bgn%2FzrQ%3Dreserved=0
-Jobs in the EV industry not only provide a positive outlook of EV industry
growth, employment opportunities, but also other things (how EVs are being
used, etc.).


https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Felectric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com%2Ftemplate%2FNamlServlet.jtp%3Fmacro%3Dsearch_page%26node%3D413529%26query%3DEVfire%26days%3D0%26sort%3Ddatedata=02%7C01%7C%7C7aec74b292b0455f2f1908d682f6fac1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636840394608065861sdata=IYhJxnTM2sqp%2BIFNNkVqmJkYIh6PlHXGKEJ1ECQAvjE%3Dreserved=0
Fires and their cause are important for knowing a trend. Some evdl members
have posted their preference of battery chemistry so as to reduce 'letting
the smoke out'.


https://eur04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Felectric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com%2Ftemplate%2FNamlServlet.jtp%3Fmacro%3Dsearch_page%26node%3D413529%26query%3DEVsOnTVs%26days%3D0%26sort%3Ddatedata=02%7C01%7C%7C7aec74b292b0455f2f1908d682f6fac1%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636840394608065861sdata=kTyP8pAK6qhu2PqaOn6B%2Fr%2FRB2%2BQMronh6KqrMmjBkI%3Dreserved=0
EVsOnTVs provides how much EVs are being shown to the public, (+more)


There are other EV(whatever) posts, but I will stop here (my point: there is
a method to the madness).


BTW, the items I post are not just read via the evdl. Readers link or
copy/repost what I do in many other plugin forums/groups etc. So, for every
1 complaint, there are at least a 100 who wanted to read it (that would be
denied).

So, while I am grateful evdl members allow me to post these here
(doing this effort is a great deal of unpaid work, that I can easily post on
a different forum/group if the evdl members want),
at the same time I ask those 

Re: [EVDL] Rant: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating

[Damon Henry via EV]

I wish Rick the best.  Those of us that have been on the EVDL for a long time 
are very aware of the Tango, but I think he is way behind the curve now with no 
hope of ever catching up.



https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.krem.com%2Farticle%2Fnews%2Fwhat-happened-to-spokanes-electric-car-the-tango%2F293-3ec56f19-edb5-431c-93d9-eb9498cd086cdata=02%7C01%7C%7C7c30cd245e1e48e4872a08d674735a55%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636824436133110946sdata=E%2FLPK4Q4Mvvb69SuBDH9tnbt2LBMdGsRNLn5oyxkamA%3Dreserved=0
What happened to Spokane's electric car, the Tango?
[dated]  Rick Woodbury and his son created the Tango, a two-seater electric
car that’s about 3-feet-wide. More than ten years after selling a car to
George Clooney, there hasn’t been much word on how the cars ...


From: EV  on behalf of brucedp5 via EV 

Sent: Sunday, January 6, 2019 11:40 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: brucedp5
Subject: [EVDL] Rant: not charging in an EVSE spot> extremely frustrating



[ref
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mail-archive.com%2Fev%40lists.evdl.org%2Fmsg24993.htmldata=02%7C01%7C%7C7c30cd245e1e48e4872a08d674735a55%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636824436133110946sdata=nzRuUmxPohHnlzalGCIfAreT518cfPIl5sRCq7FsEHs%3Dreserved=0
]

https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.seattletimes.com%2Flife%2Flifestyle%2Frant-rave-if-youre-parked-in-an-ev-charging-spot-plug-in%2Fdata=02%7C01%7C%7C7c30cd245e1e48e4872a08d674735a55%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636824436133110946sdata=33DQ1VitNTvpyHPiaOudLKH3FCJYBW%2B%2F3%2FQtV793IoE%3Dreserved=0
Rant & Rave: If you’re parked in an EV-charging spot, plug in
January 6, 2019  Seattle Times readers rantandrave @seattletimes.com.

[image
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.seattletimes.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2019%2F01%2Fweb-rant-electric-vehicles-parking--768x494.jpgdata=02%7C01%7C%7C7c30cd245e1e48e4872a08d674735a55%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636824436133110946sdata=xl6zRMOEt2MnfEuJI9q74BZHhQ0V0dcoeI7xE4FRms4%3Dreserved=0
(Gabriel Campanario / The Seattle Times)
]

RANT Electric-vehicle parking spots with chargers are for actively charging
plug-in vehicles by law. I rely solely on public charging to keep my fully
electric vehicle charged and check the plug-share app for available
chargers, only to arrive to the spot and find it taken by a vehicle that
isn’t charging. It’s extremely frustrating that people are so inconsiderate
...
[© seattletimes.com]


+
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.krem.com%2Farticle%2Fnews%2Fwhat-happened-to-spokanes-electric-car-the-tango%2F293-3ec56f19-edb5-431c-93d9-eb9498cd086cdata=02%7C01%7C%7C7c30cd245e1e48e4872a08d674735a55%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636824436133110946sdata=E%2FLPK4Q4Mvvb69SuBDH9tnbt2LBMdGsRNLn5oyxkamA%3Dreserved=0
What happened to Spokane's electric car, the Tango?
[dated]  Rick Woodbury and his son created the Tango, a two-seater electric
car that’s about 3-feet-wide. More than ten years after selling a car to
George Clooney, there hasn’t been much word on how the cars ...




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
 
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fevdl.org%2Farchive%2Fdata=02%7C01%7C%7C7c30cd245e1e48e4872a08d674735a55%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636824436133110946sdata=EkCHvejuXnChrNUuMNSQCLOAp1grGSMOMxI6O6IVXEM%3Dreserved=0


{brucedp.neocities.org}

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Re: [EVDL] My Experience with eMotorWerks

[Damon Henry via EV]

Mine has WiFi only, no Ethernet port.  I think that is the case with all their 
chargers, but I have not thoroughly researched it. Regardless, an improper 
update could just as easily break an Ethernet connection as a WiFi connection.  
For instance it could reset the Gateway address leaving the charger unable to 
reach the internet.

Damon

From: gsb...@protonmail.com 
Sent: Monday, January 7, 2019 3:12 PM
To: Damon Henry via EV
Cc: Damon Henry
Subject: Re: [EVDL] My Experience with eMotorWerks

That’s unfortunate. Do they not offer the ability to hardwire it to your modem 
or router to ensure no connectivity issues?
I personally try to do that with anything that has a wired and wireless ability 
if at all possible for the best possible performance, whether it’s a smart TV, 
XBox, Play Station, or an EV charger for that matter.

Grant

Sent from ProtonMail Mobile


On Mon, Jan 7, 2019 at 17:57, Damon Henry via EV 
mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>> wrote:
Last year I bought an EV Juicebox 40. I did not opt for the Pro model because I 
did not see much value in the internet side of the product. I mostly liked the 
fact that I could max out my circuit with it even though I do not currently 
have any vehicles which charge at that high of a rate. Still even the non-pro 
version comes with some internet dependent features some of which were 
interesting enough to me to connect the charger to my WiFi and download the App 
on my phone. Then last summer I got an email telling me that eMotorWerks had 
tried to push out an update to my charger that had disabled the WiFi and it was 
no longer online. They needed it back to fix the problem and offered me a free 
replacement which they were willing to ship out first and then let me return 
mine. That seemed reasonable and the whole exchange process was pretty 
painless. It just took a few emails and a couple of forms, and they paid for 
everything.

It did bug me a bit that they had botched an over the air update. I have spent 
a career in IT with large portions of it dedicated to automatically updating 
networked computers, so I have some sensitivity to the caution needed to 
successfully pull this type of thing off.

I got the replacement charger and hooked it up to my WiFi. Then a couple of 
months later I noticed that it was once again not connected to my WiFi. I 
opened a ticket with their support organization and asked them if they had 
perhaps once again busted my charger for me. They did not directly answer that 
question, but did once again offer to exchange the unit.

At this point I did not jump on the exchange. First of all I did not feel like 
doing the paperwork again even though it was fairly easy. Mostly though it 
bothered me that they possibly kept breaking my charger. Not in a way that kept 
my cars from charging, but how was I to know that would always be the case. I 
kept dragging my feet on the exchange as well as badgering them for a root 
cause. Eventually they claimed that the WiFi chip goes into a safe mode when it 
experiences a weak wifi signal. This did not sound right to me on many levels, 
although perhaps it is true. My charger is physically perhaps 6 feet away from 
my Access Point. Also, if it were hardware related why would they ship me a new 
unit with the same problem as the one they had to replace already? Maybe I am 
being too skeptical...

Eventually, I decided I would go forward with the exchange, but not connect the 
new charger to my WiFi. Then I would have the functionality I paid for if I 
ever decided I want it, but not have to worry about any unwanted updates. Alas, 
I took too long making up my mind and they closed the support ticket for me, so 
rather than have them reopen it, I just decided to keep my current charger as 
is.

I did send a note to their Customer Service department letting them know of my 
dissatisfaction and that I would not be buying any additional chargers from 
them or recommending them to fellow EVrs. It is very possible that I will be 
adding a second Level 2 charger in my garage in the near future, but it will 
not be another JuiceBox.

Damon
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[EVDL] My Experience with eMotorWerks

[Damon Henry via EV]

Last year I bought an EV Juicebox 40.  I did not opt for the Pro model because 
I did not see much value in the internet side of the product.  I mostly liked 
the fact that I could max out my circuit with it even though I do not currently 
have any vehicles which charge at that high of a rate.  Still even the non-pro 
version comes with some internet dependent features some of which were 
interesting enough to me to connect the charger to my WiFi and download the App 
on my phone.  Then last summer I got an email telling me that eMotorWerks had 
tried to push out an update to my charger that had disabled the WiFi and it was 
no longer online.  They needed it back to fix the problem and offered me a free 
replacement which they were willing to ship out first and then let me return 
mine.  That seemed reasonable and the whole exchange process was pretty 
painless.  It just took a few emails and a couple of forms, and they paid for 
everything.

It did bug me a bit that they had botched an over the air update.  I have spent 
a career in IT with large portions of it dedicated to automatically updating 
networked computers, so I have some sensitivity to the caution needed to 
successfully pull this type of thing off.

I got the replacement charger and hooked it up to my WiFi.  Then a couple of 
months later I noticed that it was once again not connected to my WiFi. I 
opened a ticket with their support organization and asked them if they had 
perhaps once again busted my charger for me.  They did not directly answer that 
question, but did once again offer to exchange the unit.

At this point I did not jump on the exchange.  First of all I did not feel like 
doing the paperwork again even though it was fairly easy.  Mostly though it 
bothered me that they possibly kept breaking my charger.  Not in a way that 
kept my cars from charging, but how was I to know that would always be the 
case.  I kept dragging my feet on the exchange as well as badgering them for a 
root cause.  Eventually they claimed that the WiFi chip goes into a safe mode 
when it experiences a weak wifi signal.  This did not sound right to me on many 
levels, although perhaps it is true.  My charger is physically perhaps 6 feet 
away from my Access Point.  Also, if it were hardware related why would they 
ship me a new unit with the same problem as the one they had to replace 
already?  Maybe I am being too skeptical...

Eventually, I decided I would go forward with the exchange, but not connect the 
new charger to my WiFi.  Then I would have the functionality I paid for if I 
ever decided I want it, but not have to worry about any unwanted updates.  
Alas, I took too long making up my mind and they closed the support ticket for 
me, so rather than have them reopen it, I just decided to keep my current 
charger as is.

I did send a note to their Customer Service department letting them know of my 
dissatisfaction and that I would not be buying any additional chargers from 
them or recommending them to fellow EVrs.  It is very possible that I will be 
adding a second Level 2 charger in my garage in the near future, but it will 
not be another JuiceBox.

Damon
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[EVDL] 2 PHEVs, is my quest over?

[Damon Henry via EV]

My journey to driving electric started back in 2000 when I saw a story on the 
local news.  It wasn't long after that I first met John Wayland who I found 
through some internet searches.  He pointed me to the EVDL.   After describing 
my commute to him it was apparent that I could not build the EV I wanted.  It 
was the classic you can only have 2 of the 3 requirements scenarios.  In my 
case, the extreme range that I required  meant that I would be stuck in the 
slow lane holding up traffic going up some nasty inclines that were 
unavoidable, so in March of 2001 I bought my beloved Honda Insight instead.  It 
soon became apparent that as cool as the hybrid thing was, I still really 
wanted to drive electric.  About a year later, I bought a 1974 Suzuki GT 250 
with the intent on doing my first conversion.  I felt a motorcycle was a lot 
less complicated and cheaper to convert, and I would learn lots of valuable 
lessons along the way.  It turned out well, and gave me the ability to get 
around f
 ully electric for some of my driving, but definitely would not cover my full 
commute.  I toyed with ideas of how I could make this vehicle work.  I even 
loaded it up in the back of my van on a couple of occasions and drove half of 
my commute then rode the motorcycle for the rest (the original PHEV).  My 
thinking was that I could stage a dump charger or swap-able battery pack at an 
EV friendly business or residence along the way...  I decided the motorcycle 
was not the answer, so my next adventure was my 1970 Datsun truck conversion.  
Both my motorcycle and my truck have served me well over the years in specific 
scenarios and I have had lots of fun driving electric, but was never able to 
make them work consistently for my needs, so the quest went unfulfilled.

September of last year I bought my wife a 2017 Prius Prime with 4000 miles on 
it.  Last week I traded in my 2016 Hyundai Sonata SE hybrid for a 2016 Hyundai 
Sonata PHEV Limited with 15,500 miles on it.  Both of these cars cover all of 
our current daily driving needs on electric alone.  They both feature all the 
latest tech and are wonderful to drive.  Charging is a breeze and I never worry 
about murdering the batteries.  Trips to the gas station are months apart.  I 
would estimate that roughly 85% of our driving will be electric now and that 
includes road trips which we usually do a few times a year (at least 4000 miles 
worth).  I'm in no hurry now to buy an OEM BEV.  There is not currently one on 
the market that I find compelling.  I suspect that is going to change as there 
are lots of interesting ones in the works, but I will probably wait a couple of 
years after that for good used ones to be available.  It's amazing how fast 
cars lose their value, especially ones that are purchase
 d with govt tax incentives.  Both my recent purchases feel like brand new cars 
without sticker shock.

I feel like I have finally arrived.  My family is driving electric everywhere 
now, and with the addition of the 8KW solar system I installed on my roof this 
year, I'm also making my own fuel :)  Its a good time to be an EV enthusiast!

Damon
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

[Damon Henry via EV]

I've never used a BMS on any of my setups.  It's true that this presents a 
risk, but knowing your battery chemistry and charging parameters can go a long 
way...  I have exploded batteries, but not in a way that a BMS would detect.  I 
did it the old fashioned way... ignite the hydrogen 

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of Matthew Quitter via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2018 9:30 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Matthew Quitter
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Tesla battery cells (no BMS) burst into flame...

I still don’t know what actually caused the fault.

From what I watched on the video and previous ones on that project they’re 
still in the preliminary planning stages.  It appears the pack was not 
connected to anything, just placed in the car. Is that correct?

Which would suggest it spontaneously failed - something I’ve never heard of and 
tell customers never happens. Worrying as I have 10 Tesla Model S modules 
sitting waiting to go into a couple projects!

Perhaps there was a defect in the module? Or it was removed from its plastic 
casing and rested against something conductive?!

I would like to know what actually caused the initial failure before thermal 
runaway.

Matthew

London Electric Cars


> On 4 Dec 2018, at 17:15, EVDL Administrator via EV  wrote:
>
> Not that I want to start an argument, but IMO those folks who say "I don't
> need no stinkin' BMS!" should be required to watch the hot action part of
> that video clip at least once -- just so they give it a little more thought.
>
> The "live ammo" question from the firefighters is telling.  It DID look and
> sound like that.  There's a spectacular amount of energy in those little
> lithium cells, and it can do unsettling things when it's released all at
> once.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: 
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> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
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Re: [EVDL] volt cells

[Damon Henry via EV]

I don't think it would be worth the effort.  Each Bolt pack contains cells 
already configured as ~24 volt or ~48 volt modules.  I would  suggest designing 
something within these constraints and the physical size of original packaging.

I say this because I think it would be very difficult to take them completely 
apart without damaging them and then put them back together in some other form 
factor that would be reliable.

BTW, I found out the hard way that the broken down modules need to be 
constrained.  I have a few that started to swell before I realized this.

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of ken via EV 
Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2018 8:19 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: ken
Subject: [EVDL] volt cells

  I was think about battery sizes, 18650 too small n complex to put
togehter vs leaf cells to large n heavy. I'm thinking more of midsize
cells , can volt cells be force separated ? I know the pouch cells need
constricted and not punchered .

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Re: [EVDL] volt cells

[Damon Henry via EV]

Ooops, I meant to say Volt pack.

From: EV  on behalf of Damon Henry via EV 

Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2018 9:20 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Damon Henry
Subject: Re: [EVDL] volt cells

I don't think it would be worth the effort.  Each Bolt pack contains cells 
already configured as ~24 volt or ~48 volt modules.  I would  suggest designing 
something within these constraints and the physical size of original packaging.

I say this because I think it would be very difficult to take them completely 
apart without damaging them and then put them back together in some other form 
factor that would be reliable.

BTW, I found out the hard way that the broken down modules need to be 
constrained.  I have a few that started to swell before I realized this.

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of ken via EV 
Sent: Saturday, December 1, 2018 8:19 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: ken
Subject: [EVDL] volt cells

  I was think about battery sizes, 18650 too small n complex to put
togehter vs leaf cells to large n heavy. I'm thinking more of midsize
cells , can volt cells be force separated ? I know the pouch cells need
constricted and not punchered .

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Re: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

[Damon Henry via EV]

The electrolyte is a base which eats through aluminum.  I originally put mine 
in a nice diamond plate aluminum box in the back of my truck, and it did not 
take long before the box was full of holes.  Now that I am using lithium I am 
back to using aluminum boxes.

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of ROBERT via EV 

Sent: Friday, November 9, 2018 8:20 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: ROBERT
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

I do not understand your statement "Also, I learned not to put them in an 
aluminum box " The original boxes were made of aluminum.  In addition, I think 
all aircraft NiCad use aluminum boxes.  I am sending the batteries to Recyclers 
of America.  They pay for shipping.  I am paying a $0.75 per pound recycling 
fee.  Not low cost for 1500 Lb of batteries.



From: EV  on behalf of Damon Henry via EV 

Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 11:41 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Damon Henry
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

Wow, at one time I would have drooled all over these.  In fact I bought a 
couple hundred surpluss BB600 myself and used them in both my EVs. I'm afraid I 
am lithium spoiled now.  The flooded NiCads took too much maintenance and were 
quite messy.  Also, I learned not to put them in an aluminum box :)

Can you share details on the logistics of sending them to the recyclers?  I 
still have some dead ones laying around I need to properly dispose of some day.

thanks
Damon

From: EV  on behalf of ROBERT via EV 

Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2018 2:14 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: ROBERT
Subject: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

I have approximately 1100 NiCad cells.  I purchased them about 10 years ago as 
military surplus.  They were used in helicopters.  The specifications are: Saft 
Model No. KO 14KH-B-1. 11 Amp-Hrs. Size: 2.25" W X 5.25" H, and 1" D.  If 
anyone needs these batteries and are willing to pay shipping, you can have 
them.  If not, I am shipping them to the recyclers next week.  In addition, I 
have the battery links.  Specifications: 1.5" L X 0.5 " W.  Ctr - Ctr hole 
spacing: 1" Holes dia: 3/16".  The links are Ni plate Cu.  If anyone needs 
these links, I will sell them for the price of cooper.


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Re: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

[Damon Henry via EV]

I dropped a couple dead SAFT STM5 100s off at our hazardous waste drop  in the 
NiCad section several years ago.  I came back a second time with more and they 
stopped me and said they could not take that format...  It's been quite a 
while, so I guess I could give it a go with a few BB600s and see what they say. 
 I could also talk to them about large format lithiums.  I'm going to 
eventually need a plan for those as well.

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of Bill Collins via EV 

Sent: Saturday, November 3, 2018 4:27 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Bill Collins
Subject: Re: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

I took a quick look at that before buying a few BB660 cells to experiment with 
as a starting battery for an ice. They seem to meet all the requirements for 
dropping off in the battery recycle bin at Lowes home centers. It's not a 
practical way to dispose of a large number, but for a few dead cells, I would 
just drop one off from time to time.

I'm interested in hearing the details on larger scale recycling too.
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Re: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

[Damon Henry via EV]

Wow, at one time I would have drooled all over these.  In fact I bought a 
couple hundred surpluss BB600 myself and used them in both my EVs. I'm afraid I 
am lithium spoiled now.  The flooded NiCads took too much maintenance and were 
quite messy.  Also, I learned not to put them in an aluminum box :)

Can you share details on the logistics of sending them to the recyclers?  I 
still have some dead ones laying around I need to properly dispose of some day.

thanks
Damon

From: EV  on behalf of ROBERT via EV 

Sent: Thursday, November 1, 2018 2:14 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: ROBERT
Subject: [EVDL] NICAD Batteries

I have approximately 1100 NiCad cells.  I purchased them about 10 years ago as 
military surplus.  They were used in helicopters.  The specifications are: Saft 
Model No. KO 14KH-B-1. 11 Amp-Hrs. Size: 2.25" W X 5.25" H, and 1" D.  If 
anyone needs these batteries and are willing to pay shipping, you can have 
them.  If not, I am shipping them to the recyclers next week.  In addition, I 
have the battery links.  Specifications: 1.5" L X 0.5 " W.  Ctr - Ctr hole 
spacing: 1" Holes dia: 3/16".  The links are Ni plate Cu.  If anyone needs 
these links, I will sell them for the price of cooper.


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[EVDL] Zilla Code 1124 Main Contactor Stuck On

[Damon Henry via EV]

Recently when I start my truck it often takes me a couple of tries of turning 
the main contactor on and off before the motor will spin.  I figured the Zilla 
is seeing something it does not like and found an 1124 code stored which seems 
like the likely culprit.  What is the Zilla measuring that is causing this 
error?  What should I check to clear it up?  It usually only happens when I 
first turn the truck on, but I have noticed that when sitting idle for a long 
time occasionally the truck refuses to move or the main contactor drops out all 
together as well.  It has not happend at a stop light or similar stop, only in 
my driveway or when waiting at the curb for a long time while picking up my 
daughter.

Thanks for any troubleshooting ideas.

Damon
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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[Damon Henry via EV]

Ooops I guess the tax thing was a different thread...

From: EV  on behalf of Damon Henry via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 10:37 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Damon Henry
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

Perhaps different parts of the US have different optics when it comes to EVs, 
but here in the Pacific NW I definitely do not see a "regression into a less 
EV-friendly market."  I have a saved Autotrader search here in the Portland 
area for used EVs.   It currently has 166 Used OEM EVs available for immediate 
purchase.  These are all OEM cars built within the last 7 years.  They run the 
gammit in price range from $8k for Chevy Spark, Fiat e500, and older Nissan 
Leifs into the $12k - $30K range for VW eGolf, BMW i3 and newer Leifs up to the 
$50k range for used Teslas.  There are other models available as well, but 
these are the bulk of what I could go buy today used... Of course they are all 
available brand new as well.  Besides that I am constantly reading about the 
next new EV that will be available some time within the next 5 years...

I'm very much looking forward to my next car purchase 

As far as the tax discussion that started this thread, all I can say is what a 
bunch of whiners.  These flat fees in my opinion have hit a reasonable balance. 
 By the way, you can still own an EV and not pay the tax, you just need to 
drive it on the private roads that you build and maintain yourself, no 
registration required.

Damon


From: EV  on behalf of EVDL Administrator via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 10:21 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu



I understand that maybe Tesla can't afford to do the same, but I'm not sure
they can succeed in the long run if they don't.  That's especially true in
the US, which is regressing into a less EV-friendly market.

Maybe the "Tesla cachet" will carry them through, if they can maintain their
reputation.  Time will tell.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu

[Damon Henry via EV]

Perhaps different parts of the US have different optics when it comes to EVs, 
but here in the Pacific NW I definitely do not see a "regression into a less 
EV-friendly market."  I have a saved Autotrader search here in the Portland 
area for used EVs.   It currently has 166 Used OEM EVs available for immediate 
purchase.  These are all OEM cars built within the last 7 years.  They run the 
gammit in price range from $8k for Chevy Spark, Fiat e500, and older Nissan 
Leifs into the $12k - $30K range for VW eGolf, BMW i3 and newer Leifs up to the 
$50k range for used Teslas.  There are other models available as well, but 
these are the bulk of what I could go buy today used... Of course they are all 
available brand new as well.  Besides that I am constantly reading about the 
next new EV that will be available some time within the next 5 years...

I'm very much looking forward to my next car purchase 

As far as the tax discussion that started this thread, all I can say is what a 
bunch of whiners.  These flat fees in my opinion have hit a reasonable balance. 
 By the way, you can still own an EV and not pay the tax, you just need to 
drive it on the private roads that you build and maintain yourself, no 
registration required.

Damon


From: EV  on behalf of EVDL Administrator via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2018 10:21 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla, Edison-Tesla Deja Vu



I understand that maybe Tesla can't afford to do the same, but I'm not sure
they can succeed in the long run if they don't.  That's especially true in
the US, which is regressing into a less EV-friendly market.

Maybe the "Tesla cachet" will carry them through, if they can maintain their
reputation.  Time will tell.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

[Damon Henry via EV]

I understand the engineering theory behind this line of reasoning, but I think 
in practice it has not  played out this way.  I guy I work has driven his Model 
S around the Midwest to the tune of 50,000+ miles a year for a couple of years 
now performing onsite service to our customers with no battery related issues.  
Nissan Leaf owners wish they had it so well.  Their cars have been riddled with 
battery problems primarily due to the lack of a thermal management system.  The 
difference in the experience has nothing to do with the size of cells or number 
of connections.

I do agree with you that a solution with less possible points of failure and 
all other engineering being equal is the one to pick, but those are not the 
choices that consumers are being given.  The Tesla is a very well engineered 
car and there is enough real world results to know that the battery pack is not 
an issue.   Tesla batteries are doing well into the multiple hundreds of 
thousands of miles territory.

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of Mark Hanson via EV 

Sent: Monday, October 8, 2018 12:45 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Mark Hanson
Subject: [EVDL] Why I Won't Buy a Tesla

Aside from the high price the main reason I wouldn't buy a Tesla is they're the 
only manufacturer that has uses 6800 flashlight batteries (2170) in an onroad 
vehicle. I just think of all those points of failure and the complexity of 
monitoring that reduces reliability.  While Consumer Reports gave it high marks 
for handling etc, they gave it a low score for reliability.  Currently they 
send a "Tesla Ranger" out to your house for a battery field repair as this cost 
is built into the price of a pricey car.  I don't know how this business model 
will work on lower prices $30k versions.  I'm surprised the media doesn't 
mention the thousands of itty bitty cells in a Tesla and that no one else does 
it that way for reliability reasons (even with each one fused)
Have a renewable energy day
Mark in Roanoke Va
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Re: [EVDL] (no subject)

[Damon Henry via EV]

Actually, the EVDL has never enforced any rules in regards to where or what 
kind of work you are allowed to do when contributing to the list.  For instance 
in my career I have bounced back and forth between being a programmer and an IT 
administrator in the Portland Or area and I have never been told I could not 
post to the list because of it :)

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of Ron Solberg via EV 

Sent: Monday, October 8, 2018 11:20 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: vio...@alliancecom.net
Subject: [EVDL] (no subject)

I quit posting  on  the EVDL list sometime ago when I understood my
work with ClipperCreek CS 100 units to charge Tesla Model  S cars here
in Hills, MN, did not fit the rules.

Being born in 1941, I too have concerns about the downside of Tesla
"ownership', but I bought a Model 3 since I can write it off with my
business and I can charge it off my tracking solar PV system. I am
equally concerned about the planned obsolescence engineered into
modern ICE cars and the cost and availability of parts and mechanics
in the future, Therefore, I also drive a 1929 Model A Ford tudor. I am
not a mechanic, but I can fix it, I own it, it s basic and parts are
readily available. Five million were made so old and new parts are
available.

Ron Solberg
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Re: [EVDL] decreasing pack voltage

[Damon Henry via EV]

Ummm, actually you failed to ask a question...

The principle behind what you are talking about is that in an EV Volts X Amps 
is equal to Power (Watts) and it requires a certain amount of power to maintain 
a certain speed.  If you drop the voltage of your pack it will then require 
more amps to maintain the same speed.  In this case, it takes 85 x 120 = 10.2 
kw to drive 55 mph.  If you lower your pack voltage to 70 then 10200 / 70 = 
145.71 amps to maintain 55 mph.

This is the straight math.  There are other factors involved as well.  Can your 
overall system maintain 70 volts at 145 amps.  My guess is that it can because 
most of the components that people build EVs with work fine in this range, but 
it is generally harder on all of your components.

Without more specifics that is the best I can answer your implied question.

Damon

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of ken via EV 
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2018 11:18 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: ken
Subject: [EVDL] decreasing pack voltage

I have a 85 volt system  that draws 120 amps at 55 mph, but want to lower
my pack count (I found brand  new cells ) but to do only top speed of 40
mph .

at 40 mph my voltage is 70 volts and 40 amps,  Am i asking a oboius ?  the
cells are 70 ah .

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Re: [EVDL] electriccarpartscompany.com?

[Damon Henry via EV]

I bought a shunt from them a couple of months ago... I believe through Ebay.  
Everything was legit and they delivered in a timely manner.  It was only a $30 
part though, so not a lot of risk.

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of Tom Hudson via EV 

Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 1:09 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Tom Hudson
Subject: [EVDL] electriccarpartscompany.com?

Does anybody know if electriccarpartscompany.com is legit and still in business?
I asked them for a battery+BMS quote over a week ago and haven't heard a peep. 
Followed up with an email a couple of days ago, and have heard nothing.
I'm trying to upgrade the battery pack in our Solectria E-10 pickup with CALB 
CA-100s and they have a good price and also sell the Orion BMS.
Anyone dealt with them?
-Tom


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Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)

[Damon Henry via EV]

One of the arguments I always felt favored EVs is that there are numerous ways 
to generate electricity including doing it yourself.  So once you start 
producing your own electricity and powering your EV with it,  energy 
conservation is very on topic.

In my case I'm looking to conserve elsewhere to have more for driving :)

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of Damon Henry via EV 

Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 9:33 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Damon Henry
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)

This is actually a very relevant topic for me right now, so thanks for all the 
great information.  I just had an 8kw solar system installed on my roof.  
According to production projections and past consumption trends this will 
provide roughly 70%  of my annual usage.  So how do I take care of the other 
30%...  Well, it's time to take a hard look at where I can conserve.

Also, we currently do around half our household driving on electric, and I 
would like to push that up in the next couple of years, so I need to actually 
find more than just the 30% savings.  In the end I suspect that I will need to 
add more panels, but that will take some creativity as I got as many put on my 
southern facing roof as there was room for,,,

I love seeing the energy collected from my roof and funneled directly into my 
"gas tank".  My electric vehicles just became solar vehicles :)

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of paul dove via EV 

Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 5:17 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: paul dove
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)

Matt,

I believe this is the point the author was trying to make.

Increased efficiency will offset EVs. Click the link for current numbers.

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Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 25, 2018, at 1:08 PM, Matt Awesome via EV  wrote:

>> Remember this factoid.
>
> I'm all for saving energy and obviously I'm here so I'm passionate
> about EV use, but, it's also important to me to not treat this like
> some kind of religion.
>
>> Swapping out the average American home from Incandescent bulbs to LEDs saves
>> the same amount of power needed to charge an EV the American 40 mile average
>> per day forever.
>
> Plainly, no, it won't.
>
>> 50 bulbs saving an average 60 watts each for 5 hours a day is 15 kWh.
>
> Who the hell leaves 50 lightbulbs on in their house for 5 hours a day?
>
> I don't even think I have 50 lightbulbs in my house, let alone leave
> them all on 5 hours a day.
>
> Anyone with that many fixtures is putting 40w bulbs into them. And
> LEDs aren't free, so, there's not 60watts savings from a 60w bulb.
>
> Let's try to get some more realistic numbers.
>
> How many Kwh does an average US household consume in a day?:
> Source 1: 
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eia.gov%2Ftools%2Ffaqs%2Ffaq.php%3Fid%3D97%26t%3D3data=02%7C01%7C%7C07f09b6e70034e5dd7de08d5f31108f2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636682176839517527sdata=XmP9BPr6CSHa2FMWnhF6tQH0cvLd2KnAhOgwcfbiqo4%3Dreserved=0
>  -
> Independent US Energy & Information Statistics says ~10,000kwh/year.
> That's 27kwh/day.
> Source 2: 
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nationmaster.com%2Fcountry-info%2Fstats%2FEnergy%2FElectricity%2FConsumption-by-households-per-capita%232005data=02%7C01%7C%7C07f09b6e70034e5dd7de08d5f31108f2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636682176839517527sdata=t%2BHYCGqP%2FL%2BxKHGGN5T%2BrkJLxF0p2EzakOjsi%2B488Ew%3Dreserved=0
> - Around half that.
>
> What percentage of an electrical bill is comprised of lighting?:
> Source 3: 
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eia.gov%2Ftools%2Ffaqs%2Ffaq.php%3Fid%3D96%26t%3D3data=02%7C01%7C%7C07f09b6e70034e5dd7de08d5f31108f2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636682176839517527sdata=bOpiCSgvkXm%2BWYLz4Oe4EPggfltaJTUnGymbz0Ex0WQ%3Dreserved=0
>  - 9%.
> Source 4: 
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.quora.com%2FWhat-percentage-of-energy-consumption-is-from-lighting-in-a-typical-American-housedata=02%7C01%7C%7C07f09b6e70034e5dd7de08d5f31108f2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636682176839517527sdata=%2FelVqRqKAXe2z2XyhW7YDAE213cbf78a1QrCFjQ9rvc%3Dreserved=0
> - 6%.
>
> The split seems to vary depending on whether heat is made through gas
> or electricity. Meaning the lower percentage use numbers for lighting
> are from houses that us

Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)

[Damon Henry via EV]

This is actually a very relevant topic for me right now, so thanks for all the 
great information.  I just had an 8kw solar system installed on my roof.  
According to production projections and past consumption trends this will 
provide roughly 70%  of my annual usage.  So how do I take care of the other 
30%...  Well, it's time to take a hard look at where I can conserve.

Also, we currently do around half our household driving on electric, and I 
would like to push that up in the next couple of years, so I need to actually 
find more than just the 30% savings.  In the end I suspect that I will need to 
add more panels, but that will take some creativity as I got as many put on my 
southern facing roof as there was room for,,,

I love seeing the energy collected from my roof and funneled directly into my 
"gas tank".  My electric vehicles just became solar vehicles :)

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of paul dove via EV 

Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 5:17 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: paul dove
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging load on the grid (NOT)

Matt,

I believe this is the point the author was trying to make.

Increased efficiency will offset EVs. Click the link for current numbers.

https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eia.gov%2Ftodayinenergy%2Fdetail.php%3Fid%3D32212data=02%7C01%7C%7C07f09b6e70034e5dd7de08d5f31108f2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636682176839517527sdata=IwQq%2FAOZ3WXCL3miWx6N6IIvwIvHXjf5UEUZGTd4G%2B8%3Dreserved=0

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 25, 2018, at 1:08 PM, Matt Awesome via EV  wrote:

>> Remember this factoid.
>
> I'm all for saving energy and obviously I'm here so I'm passionate
> about EV use, but, it's also important to me to not treat this like
> some kind of religion.
>
>> Swapping out the average American home from Incandescent bulbs to LEDs saves
>> the same amount of power needed to charge an EV the American 40 mile average
>> per day forever.
>
> Plainly, no, it won't.
>
>> 50 bulbs saving an average 60 watts each for 5 hours a day is 15 kWh.
>
> Who the hell leaves 50 lightbulbs on in their house for 5 hours a day?
>
> I don't even think I have 50 lightbulbs in my house, let alone leave
> them all on 5 hours a day.
>
> Anyone with that many fixtures is putting 40w bulbs into them. And
> LEDs aren't free, so, there's not 60watts savings from a 60w bulb.
>
> Let's try to get some more realistic numbers.
>
> How many Kwh does an average US household consume in a day?:
> Source 1: 
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eia.gov%2Ftools%2Ffaqs%2Ffaq.php%3Fid%3D97%26t%3D3data=02%7C01%7C%7C07f09b6e70034e5dd7de08d5f31108f2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636682176839517527sdata=XmP9BPr6CSHa2FMWnhF6tQH0cvLd2KnAhOgwcfbiqo4%3Dreserved=0
>  -
> Independent US Energy & Information Statistics says ~10,000kwh/year.
> That's 27kwh/day.
> Source 2: 
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nationmaster.com%2Fcountry-info%2Fstats%2FEnergy%2FElectricity%2FConsumption-by-households-per-capita%232005data=02%7C01%7C%7C07f09b6e70034e5dd7de08d5f31108f2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636682176839517527sdata=t%2BHYCGqP%2FL%2BxKHGGN5T%2BrkJLxF0p2EzakOjsi%2B488Ew%3Dreserved=0
> - Around half that.
>
> What percentage of an electrical bill is comprised of lighting?:
> Source 3: 
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.eia.gov%2Ftools%2Ffaqs%2Ffaq.php%3Fid%3D96%26t%3D3data=02%7C01%7C%7C07f09b6e70034e5dd7de08d5f31108f2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636682176839517527sdata=bOpiCSgvkXm%2BWYLz4Oe4EPggfltaJTUnGymbz0Ex0WQ%3Dreserved=0
>  - 9%.
> Source 4: 
> https://nam05.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.quora.com%2FWhat-percentage-of-energy-consumption-is-from-lighting-in-a-typical-American-housedata=02%7C01%7C%7C07f09b6e70034e5dd7de08d5f31108f2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636682176839517527sdata=%2FelVqRqKAXe2z2XyhW7YDAE213cbf78a1QrCFjQ9rvc%3Dreserved=0
> - 6%.
>
> The split seems to vary depending on whether heat is made through gas
> or electricity. Meaning the lower percentage use numbers for lighting
> are from houses that use 2x as much electricity (for heat). If they're
> not making heat electrically, their lighting percentage is higher (but
> the same net total).
>
> So, we could say 27kwh/day of which lighting is 6% or 15kwh/day of
> which lighting is 9% to at least be in the right ballpark (this
> argument is about general scale, not really precision).
>
> What is the average lighting demand for a US household?:
> - 27kwh*6% = 1.62kwh/day.
> - 15kwh*9% = 1.35kwh/day.
>
> Somewhere around 1500 watt-hours a day.
>
> You're claiming 10x that amount in *savings* from switching to LED,
> let alone total lighting use.
>
>> Charging an EV at 1.5kw for 10 hours a day is 15 kWh.
>
> Since it's not the 1970s, the average household has at 

[EVDL] Juicebox

[Damon Henry via EV]

I just added a 50 amp Nema 14-50 circuit in my garage and ordered a Juicebox 40 
Light to charge my wife's Prius Prime faster.  I have to say that it is a very 
nice setup and works as advertised.   I could have bought a cheaper L2 charge 
station that would have worked just as well on the Prius Prime as it is limited 
to the 3.3kw charger it comes with, but I felt the Juicebox had more to offer 
for any future EVs I might bring home, especially ones with a higher charge 
rate.  I selected the Lite model over the standard as most of the features that 
are missing are available native in the Prius Prime already, and a software 
upgrade is available if I ever feel I need it.  Interestingly, with the current 
pricing it  is actually a couple of bucks cheaper to buy the Lite model and pay 
for the upgrade...

If my memory servers correctly one of our long time list contributors recently 
went to work for eMotorWerks.  So congratulations to him for joining a company 
that sells a quality product that is helping the EV movement march forward.

Damon
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Re: [EVDL] Zombie

[Damon Henry via EV]

Fastest Car, episode 7.

From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Eduardo Kaftanski via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2018 11:27 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Eduardo Kaftanski
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zombie

What netflix show?

(sorry... I've been on and off on this list since forever and only
resubscribed a couple of weeks ago)


On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 3:11 PM, Damon Henry via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
wrote:

> He's fine.  I had breakfast with him just a couple of days ago.  The
> accident was last fall during filming for the show on Netflix and only the
> two cars involved got hurt.  Zombie is sitting in a shop waiting for
> repairs.  In the meantime John is busy trying to finish up his 400 mile per
> charge Honda Insight - EV1 conversion he is dubbing EV2 :)  It's a project
> he started several years ago, but put on hold for a few years after the
> death of his wife Cheryl.  He is now in the latter stages and thinks it
> might be on the road some time in the next few months.
>
> Damon



--
Eduardo Kaftanski
edua...@kdi.cl
ekaf...@gmail.com
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Re: [EVDL] Zombie

[Damon Henry via EV]

I don't think he has posted any recent updates.  I'm fortunate that I live 
close to him and can just go see things in person, which I do on occasion.  He 
recently lost both his parents who were in their 90s and he's not thrilled with 
the way things ended up with the show on Netflix, so he is currently keeping a 
very low profile.  I would imagine that once the EV2 hits the road, he will be 
back to his usual EVangelical ways.  He's already investigating a new battery 
sponsorship which would allow him to upgrade to 600+ mile range.

I saw the same warning when I tried to visit his site, so I sent him a note 
about it.

Damon

From: Rod Hower <rodho...@ameritech.net>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2018 11:37 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Damon Henry
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Zombie

I used to go to Welcome to Plasma Boy Racing, home of White Zombie, the world's 
quickest street legal electric door slammer in the 1/4 mile 
drag.<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plasmaboyracing.com%2F=02%7C01%7C%7C14a49a331b2b410770bc08d5aa126ca6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636601918470588746=nqH5bxgIX1vxq4MQSzgVM7g1VjW7n7FCoGUx3tDGJQk%3D=0>


<https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.plasmaboyracing.com%2F=02%7C01%7C%7C14a49a331b2b410770bc08d5aa126ca6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636601918470588746=nqH5bxgIX1vxq4MQSzgVM7g1VjW7n7FCoGUx3tDGJQk%3D=0>

Welcome to Plasma Boy Racing, home of White Zombie, the world's quickest street 
legal electric door slammer in th...




but now it says this site may contain malware.  I don't think he's posted there 
in awhile, but I did follow his progress on the Insight but didn't see anything 
for a very long time.  Does he post anywhere else regarding the details of his 
Insight project?


On Tuesday, April 24, 2018 2:11 PM, Damon Henry via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
wrote:


He's fine.  I had breakfast with him just a couple of days ago.  The accident 
was last fall during filming for the show on Netflix and only the two cars 
involved got hurt.  Zombie is sitting in a shop waiting for repairs.  In the 
meantime John is busy trying to finish up his 400 mile per charge Honda Insight 
- EV1 conversion he is dubbing EV2 :)  It's a project he started several years 
ago, but put on hold for a few years after the death of his wife Cheryl.  He is 
now in the latter stages and thinks it might be on the road some time in the 
next few months.

Damon

From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org<mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org>> on 
behalf of Gary Krysztopik via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>>
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2018 9:59 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>
Cc: Gary Krysztopik
Subject: [EVDL] Zombie

Has anybody heard from John Wayland? Seems he was in a fender bender.  Hope
he's ok.
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Re: [EVDL] Zombie

[Damon Henry via EV]

He's fine.  I had breakfast with him just a couple of days ago.  The accident 
was last fall during filming for the show on Netflix and only the two cars 
involved got hurt.  Zombie is sitting in a shop waiting for repairs.  In the 
meantime John is busy trying to finish up his 400 mile per charge Honda Insight 
- EV1 conversion he is dubbing EV2 :)  It's a project he started several years 
ago, but put on hold for a few years after the death of his wife Cheryl.  He is 
now in the latter stages and thinks it might be on the road some time in the 
next few months.

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of Gary Krysztopik via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2018 9:59 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Gary Krysztopik
Subject: [EVDL] Zombie

Has anybody heard from John Wayland? Seems he was in a fender bender.  Hope
he's ok.
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Re: [EVDL] Adding J1772 Plug to a conversion

[Damon Henry via EV]

Yeah, I have not seen the new 2018 Leaf in person yet.  I have a bunch of used 
Leafs available in this area, including one dealer that does almost exclusively 
used Leafs http://www.plattautoor.com/vehicles.  Unfortunately for me, I think 
they are super ugly.  I don't feel the same about the newer models... at least 
not from the pictures I've seen.


Damon

From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Jay Summet via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2018 9:09 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Jay Summet
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Adding J1772 Plug to a conversion



On 04/18/2018 12:03 PM, Damon Henry via EV wrote:

> Then again, I may do nothing at all.  My wife's Prius Prime has me thinking 
> about an OEM EV in the next couple of years...   Since I live in the Portland 
> Metro area, I can get out and see most of them at local dealerships, but 
> there are still some that are only available in California.  I'm heading for 
> Disneyland next month with my wife and daughter, and I think I'll spend one 
> full day test driving EVs and PIHs while I am down there so I can try them 
> all.

My wife has a 2015 Leaf, and I'm seriously considering getting a Leaf +
light trailer once the current battery pack on my truck degrades. Used
Leaf's in good condition can be found quite inexpensively.

Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Adding J1772 Plug to a conversion

[Damon Henry via EV]

Thanks Bruce, and all those who have contributed.  I'll answer a few of Bruce's 
questions.  The reason that I am considering this is multiple.  First, since I 
bought my wife her Prius Prime I have come to love the simplicity of Plugging 
in her car.  I would like to emulate that and since I am probably adding some 
circuits and charging infrastructure in my garage for her, I wouldn't mind 
being able to set my truck up to be as simple as her car, and share the same 
charging infrastructure.  Secondly, my employer is moving to a new location 
which will be on the edge of my current range.  Finally, as Bruce has noted, I 
have plenty of charging options in my area, so being able to tap into that 
would allow my to go more places :)  Of course, I could also just add more 
batteries...  So I am investigating.  I'm also considering doing the same for 
my motorcycle.

Also, I'm not quite as cost conscious as I have been in the past.  Getting a 
few birds out of the nest has helped in that area :)

Bruce remembered my chargers correctly, and yes they are dual voltage input 
although as Bruce has noted I'm only charging at about 1KW so I would not be 
fully using what I am paying for at most charging stations.

I am looking at all options.  I have close ties to Manzanita Micro as well, but 
as you noted their equipment is expensive, plus  their chargers are pretty 
bulky.

I really liked the look of the solution Jay pointed me to from Thuderstruck, or 
I may just add the J1772 inlet and stick with my current chargers.  This is 
almost certainly what I will do for my motorcycle.

Then again, I may do nothing at all.  My wife's Prius Prime has me thinking 
about an OEM EV in the next couple of years...   Since I live in the Portland 
Metro area, I can get out and see most of them at local dealerships, but there 
are still some that are only available in California.  I'm heading for 
Disneyland next month with my wife and daughter, and I think I'll spend one 
full day test driving EVs and PIHs while I am down there so I can try them all.

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of brucedp5 via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2018 8:32 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: brucedp5
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Adding J1772 Plug to a conversion



Damon didn't give all the watts, where charging, whys, whens I would need to
fully make a decision. So, I hope Damon will correct my assumptions,
guesses, etc.

I'll assume his EValbum page is current
https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.evalbum.com%2F1524=02%7C01%7C%7Caeddb20362ae4187281308d5a4dcf757%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636596191301444932=gAq%2FmZDtu9MIwYmMb8YnK2Ye55p1SpSaHWAWc7LQAlY%3D=0
System Voltage  96 Volts (series-parallel li-ion strings)
'(2x) Chinese Lithium bike battery chargers
 ... 4 - 6 amp CCCV (48VDC) chargers ... from ... greentime'

If I remember the past correctly, Damon has made frugal choice$, so I offer
high, medium,and lower cost ideas.

Anyone else also considering a j1772 charging upgrade can kill time poking
around the internet searching for j1772 parts, etc.
https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dj1772=02%7C01%7C%7Caeddb20362ae4187281308d5a4dcf757%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636596191301444932=ScQCQgVZJS94zcLa8vjwd2679gOk76Ga859UjDJMjzY%3D=0
 parts


IMO, before you do anything you should look at what public charging you have
https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.plugshare.com%2F=02%7C01%7C%7Caeddb20362ae4187281308d5a4dcf757%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636596191301444932=K%2BJJZQReR5cZDveCnNeYpern7tDhiEQlxjtOLuyn72c%3D=0
 I used the filter in the menu to only show j1772 EVSE.
Damon has beau-coup/many j1772 to plug in to. But most of them are Blink
network which at the most, their visitor rate is $0.50/kWh or $3 for a 1hour
6kW charge. There a few sites that are not blink or free.

I also set the filter to only show Tesla Destination hpwc EVSE. there are
only a few. Why? to see if using a Tesla to j1772 adapter would let him
mooch a free charge (Tesla practically gives the hpwc EVSE away, charging is
usually un-metered/no-network= free).

(By comparison to Damon 's WA area, in my 76548 zip TX area, it is a public
EVSE wilderness. There are a few j1772 EVSE around, but there are several
hpwc I would want to be able to use. Anyone wanting to do this see
https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Felectrek.co%2F2017%2F06%2F20%2Ftesla-j1772-adapter-electric-cars-destination-chargers%2F=02%7C01%7C%7Caeddb20362ae4187281308d5a4dcf757%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636596191301444932=X9yN7IDZr6gOehc%2BzzuOkP%2FWeBYYMFEUTPBKPi5byv4%3D=0

[EVDL] Adding J1772 Plug to a conversion

[Damon Henry via EV]

I'm investigating making my Datsun Truck compatible with public charging 
stations.  Does anyone know of specific websites  or Discussion Forum threads I 
should check out.   I currently require a 120 volt 20 amp circuit to power my 
modular charging solution, but I may also look into adding a more traditional 
series charging solution if I feel it would work better.

thanks
Damon
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Re: [EVDL] EVjacker: Stymied by Bolt EV controls> arrested, $20k-bail Austin-TX

[Damon Henry via EV]

I test drove a Bolt last summer.  It drives just like any other car.  The 
shifter is not as hard to figure out as a Prius, and that only takes most 
people a few seconds as it is slightly different than a "normal" car.
I suspect you are correct, either the car could not be started from lack of a 
FOB in the car, or the car was drive-able, but the thief did not realize the 
car was turned on.

I thought it was an odd piece as well, but did not jump to anti-ev bias... Many 
modern cars start and shift differently than how cars have in the past...  
Someone in the reporting process clearly thought it was because it was 
electric, but perhaps not the author of the story.  It's reasonable to believe 
that the thief actually did not know how to start and therefore drive the car 
and attributed it to being electric.  So I vote for ignorance over 
maliciousness :)

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of EVDL Administrator via EV 

Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2018 10:49 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: EVDL Administrator
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVjacker: Stymied by Bolt EV controls> arrested, $20k-bail 
Austin-TX

On 28 Feb 2018 at 10:32, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

> [The alleged carjacker] then attempted to drive away but couldnTMt
> because he didnTMt know how to drive an electric car, according to the
> document.
>
> It said the owner of the car later told police, who were alerted at 11:10 a.m.
> Saturday, that oehis vehicle cannot be driven like a normal vehicle and takes
> some getting used to.?

I'm calling BS on this one.

My uninformed guess (but no more uninformed than the writer of this piece)
is that the car had an RFID key fob, just as many ICEVs now have. The fob
was still in the driver's pocket, and the car refused to move because key
fob and driver were no longer in the car, much less in the driver's seat..

Ths stinks to the skies of the old anti-EV bias: "EVs are really WEIRD.
What normal person would ever want one?"

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf module charging recommendations

[Damon Henry via EV]

I tested the Power Supply thing and was not happy with the results.  I bought a 
MEANWELL SP-480-48 48V 10A supply for $90 off of Ebay.  It's been quite a while 
since I tested it, but I think I was not happy with the current limiting and 
was afraid that I would always be running it too close to it's max.  I believe 
there are simple add on circuits you can use to overcome this, but the Chinese 
chargers I went with were in the same relative price range (a little less 
expensive) and were turnkey.

Damon

From: EV  on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 3:36 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Cor van de Water
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf module charging recommendations

Fred,
So your meter indicates 3.54V as 3.56 or 3.57 which is less than 1% error.
For Lithium the nominal voltage is not when pretty much dead as Lead,
but closer to the halfway point.
Since your pack is pretty low in charge, below 20% I am guessing, the total
pack voltage is well below the nominal voltage, which is 12 x 3.8 = 45.6V
Max charge voltage of each cell is 4.2 but I would suggest to keep it under
4.1 if you are not required to get the absolute max out of the pack at all 
costs.
If you are doing a race for max distance then go ahead and aim for 4.2 or 
higher,
but in daily operation if you want longevity, then I suggest you charge to 4.1V.

You will need a (simple) BMS to tell you when a cell goes over 4.2V or under 
3.0V
and preferably does some low-current balancing for you, for example the Leaf
BMS has 10mA balance current and runs 24/7.
You definitely want to get a signal from the BMS when any cell is hitting its 
limit
so you can either drop a contactor (to stop charging or driving) or at minimum 
get
a very noticeable warning that something is going out of spec, so you can 
respond to it
(especially while driving, since during charging you are likely asleep).

12 x 4.1V is 49.2V which is a convenient voltage that most 48V power supplies 
can easily be trimmed up to using the trimpot on the supply.
I have very many 48V power supplies, so let me know if you like to talk about 
getting one.

In fact, last week I disassembled an Enginer unit, which is a 48V Lithium 
battery pack for a Prius
with a charger and a DC/DC converter to the Prius's Hybrid packs ~200V, 5kW.
I do not trust the BMS that came with it as most batteries were toast, but you 
are welcome
to experiment with it if you like.
Success,
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of fred via EV
Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 3:15 PM
To: via EV
Cc: fred
Subject: [EVDL] Leaf module charging recommendations

Thanks to Jerry Dycus for selling me a great looking clean Volt battery module. 
My still-working Radio Shack (top of the line) digital multimeter tells me all 
the cells are within 0.01 at 3.56 or 3.57 volts.
I've found this useful bit of data:
Number of cells36
Construction12 in-series x 3 in parallel Length 
 9.5"
Width9.5"
Height  10.5
Weight 45 lbs
Output terminalM6 nut
Amp Hour47
Total Voltage   48vdc



CELL SPECIFICATIONS
Cell typeLaminate type Cathode material   
LiMn2O4 with LiNiO2 Anode material  Graphite Rated capacity (0.3C)  
 17 Ah Average voltage3.8 VDC Maximum Voltage 4.2VDC 
Minimum Voltage  3.0VDC I measured 42.5vdc across each 12 cell block 
and the math says it should be 42.72vdc, which is close enough for my meter. 
It's not 48vdc and from an earlier discussion I expected that to be the case.
When it comes to charging this battery, I would like to ensure to get the right 
stuff. My experience with other lithium based batteries is that the nominal 
voltage of the charger is referenced to the battery and in all cases, the 
battery voltage is higher than the nominal voltage "listed." That is to say, a 
36v battery charges to 42vdc and rarely drops to the 36v reference figure in 
regular use. The charger, of course, pushes electrons into the battery at those 
higher levels.
In the case of the Volt battery, I believe I would not want to use an 
off-the-shelf charger rated for a 48v battery. My search results have all been 
ending in devices with excessive top-end termination.

I would like to have an off-the-shelf solution, however, if such a charger 
exists. My current collection of chargers are plug-in and go type, in that they 
have appropriate profiles for charging to a specific level and tapering off as 
appropriate for the pack.
As an additional consideration, this battery does not need to be charged in an 
hour or even two or three. I'm amenable to a configuration that requires a ten 
hour or longer charge period, especially if cost is lower.
I welcome corrections to my train of 

Re: [EVDL] Leaf module charging recommendations

[Damon Henry via EV]

I special ordered 4 chargers from
https://evfittinggreentime.aliexpress.com/store/313864

I bought 4 of their 6 amp chargers and asked them to set the termination 
voltage to 12 X 4.15 volts = 49.8 volts to use with my 4 Chevy Volt Modules.  
You can ask for whatever termination voltage you are comfortable with.

I previously had bought two of their 54.6 volt chargers for the 16 Calb Cells 
in my motorcycle and have been very happy with their chargers working as 
advertised.


Damon



From: EV  on behalf of fred via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, January 30, 2018 3:14 PM
To: via EV
Cc: fred
Subject: [EVDL] Leaf module charging recommendations

Thanks to Jerry Dycus for selling me a great looking clean Volt battery module. 
My still-working Radio Shack (top of the line) digital multimeter tells me all 
the cells are within 0.01 at 3.56 or 3.57 volts.
I've found this useful bit of data:
Number of cells36
Construction12 in-series x 3 in parallel
Length  9.5"
Width9.5"
Height  10.5
Weight 45 lbs
Output terminalM6 nut
Amp Hour47
Total Voltage   48vdc



CELL SPECIFICATIONS
Cell typeLaminate type
Cathode material   LiMn2O4 with LiNiO2
Anode material  Graphite
Rated capacity (0.3C)   17 Ah
Average voltage3.8 VDC
Maximum Voltage 4.2VDC
Minimum Voltage  3.0VDC
I measured 42.5vdc across each 12 cell block and the math says it should be 
42.72vdc, which is close enough for my meter. It's not 48vdc and from an 
earlier discussion I expected that to be the case.
When it comes to charging this battery, I would like to ensure to get the right 
stuff. My experience with other lithium based batteries is that the nominal 
voltage of the charger is referenced to the battery and in all cases, the 
battery voltage is higher than the nominal voltage "listed." That is to say, a 
36v battery charges to 42vdc and rarely drops to the 36v reference figure in 
regular use. The charger, of course, pushes electrons into the battery at those 
higher levels.
In the case of the Volt battery, I believe I would not want to use an 
off-the-shelf charger rated for a 48v battery. My search results have all been 
ending in devices with excessive top-end termination.

I would like to have an off-the-shelf solution, however, if such a charger 
exists. My current collection of chargers are plug-in and go type, in that they 
have appropriate profiles for charging to a specific level and tapering off as 
appropriate for the pack.
As an additional consideration, this battery does not need to be charged in an 
hour or even two or three. I'm amenable to a configuration that requires a ten 
hour or longer charge period, especially if cost is lower.
I welcome corrections to my train of thought, even to the point of derailment 
as appropriate. I'm hoping for an off-the-shelf solution that works 
out-of-the-box or works with appropriate adjustments on the panel or equivalent.

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Re: [EVDL] Untruths in Toyota advertising: lies, lies, and more lies

[damon henry via EV]

Not to dispute your HOV sticker claims which is a very California thing that a 
limited number of people really care about, but in my home, my wife's new Prius 
Prime is being used almost exclusively as an EV.  It's a great car, and has 
made it tough for me to keep up with her in terms of driving pure electric, 
even though I have two DIY EV conversions sitting in my garage.  I would much 
rather take her Plug-in Hybrid places than either of my own EVs, and I actually 
look forward to her leaving town so I can have her car.

If you are a long time EV enthusiast like me who never wanted a lead sled and 
is used to short range EVs for most of your primary driving, I would strongly 
suggest taking test drives in all the current plug-in hybrids and seeing if you 
might want one.

I know PIH rub some people on this list the wrong way, but if you are doing all 
of your driving pushing electrons through the motor instead of gas through the 
engine then what is the difference?

I have test driven both the Chevy Bolt and the Chevy Volt, and if I buy either 
for myself, which I am considering, it is more likely to be the Volt.  I know 
it would cover almost all of my driving in EV mode, and for those times when I 
want to take it cross country (I seem to take about half a dozen 700 - 1600 
mile road trips a year) it does not bother to stop in at one of the 100,000 or 
so gas stations in the United States for a 5 minute fill up.

Damon





From: EV  on behalf of brucedp5 via EV 

Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2017 8:36 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: brucedp5
Subject: [EVDL] Untruths in Toyota advertising: lies, lies, and more lies



A local Toyota TV ad was pushing Prius Prime (which is not an EV).
Yet, it prominently had a white CA hov (car pool lane) sticker shown on the
upper right of the TV screen ad (as if the Prius Prime was an EV, which it
isn't, its a hybrid which can only have a green CA hov sticker).

You can see the white sticker 7 seconds into their video:

https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DJNKjDb5UO4A=02%7C01%7Cdamonhenry%40hotmail.com%7Cefd95c986ec249f07a1f08d51c22b333%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636445857709485957=I2OT%2F2KtJq2ol1n%2BltmXZ4zZnTTSTYM%2FiUkvI8dV7Rg%3D=0
Wouldn't It Be Nice - Prius Prime - 0:17
4 hours ago - Uploaded by Scott Skougard ...

For those that can't load the video, see the white hov sticker shown in the
thumbnail image on:

https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253DJNKjDb5UO4A=02%7C01%7Cdamonhenry%40hotmail.com%7Cefd95c986ec249f07a1f08d51c22b333%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636445857709485957=BQA78oj1X52g3SFUg1g6zggJyjLYUp%2BxVHycJLppIbs%3D=0


Here are images of the correct sticker a prius prime should display:

https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fattachments.priuschat.com%2Fattachment-files%2F2017%2F01%2F119524_image.jpeg=02%7C01%7Cdamonhenry%40hotmail.com%7Cefd95c986ec249f07a1f08d51c22b333%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636445857709485957=zdeYxvT%2Ft2uMCSaKyFi6fUJUGTBUjMvD8SY0om2%2FJ%2FI%3D=0

https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fattachments.priuschat.com%2Fattachment-files%2F2017%2F02%2F120945_IMG_0226.jpg=02%7C01%7Cdamonhenry%40hotmail.com%7Cefd95c986ec249f07a1f08d51c22b333%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636445857709485957=%2BNGHypmXYBdH46ZCUepA4snrnrd9knculRHB4bnSYq0%3D=0

https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fattachments.priuschat.com%2Fattachment-files%2F2017%2F02%2F120944_IMG_0225.jpg=02%7C01%7Cdamonhenry%40hotmail.com%7Cefd95c986ec249f07a1f08d51c22b333%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636445857709485957=ntdJZ3MofmQyoRlwV3PjfrJLz8qlpM44fV7AT2uFTEk%3D=0


Clearly, Toyota TV ad is lying, ... again.
Not a big lie perhaps, but it gives you that bad taste of how
sneaky-deceptive automakers are.

https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dcar%2Bads%2Bthat%2Blie%2Bto%2Byou=02%7C01%7Cdamonhenry%40hotmail.com%7Cefd95c986ec249f07a1f08d51c22b333%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636445857709485957=KMQnl%2F%2BJVSWB%2B5PLcsvfmu5NJlm6q45E7NPIr3Q%2FSzo%3D=0




For EVLN EV-newswire posts use:
https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fevdl.org%2Fevln%2F=02%7C01%7Cdamonhenry%40hotmail.com%7Cefd95c986ec249f07a1f08d51c22b333%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636445857709485957=7uBYhMXbEpCz6pMub5bbmFjVgyXqHxW5GsabwCs%2FvaA%3D=0


{brucedp.neocities.org}

--
Sent from: 

Re: [EVDL] Great device for Zilla owners.

[damon henry via EV]

I've had some time to look at John's ZillaDash program and it is pretty robust. 
 It includes a dashboard editor that is great.  The tablet I bought has a 1920 
X 1080 native screen resolution which I was able to easily build a custom 
dashboard for.  I can't believe what a nice setup this is for only $80.


Damon


From: John Lussmyer 
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2017 9:24:23 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: damon henry
Subject: Great device for Zilla owners.

And just to blow my own horn, you may want to take a look at ZillaDash
http://www.casadelgato.com/ZillaDash/index.html

I currently am testing nice little unit with a 7" display that you can mount in 
your car.

On Tue Sep 26 09:01:30 PDT 2017 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>I just purchased one of these 
>https://www.amazon.com/NuVision-Touchscreen-Quad-Core-Processor-Windows/dp/B01H3B17R8/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
> to run ZillaView http://www.evgear.com.au/zillaview.html  and it works great.
>
>If you  have a Zilla controller, it makes for a great $80 meter that shows 
>lots of interesting real time information in a very readable format.

--

Try my Sensible Email package!  https://sourceforge.net/projects/sensibleemail/
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Fiat ups the amount lo$t on each 500e sold> (a 2012 compliance EV) r:87mi

[damon henry via EV]

I think we are in the majority on this list with those sentiments, but not in 
the overall market.  Most people are shopping primarily with their pocketbook, 
and only looking at the short term costs.


Hyundai has a great example of this in their lineup right now with their Ionic 
series.  Compare the price of their 59 mpg hybrid which includes the cost of an 
electric drive train to the cost of their 100+ mpc EV.


Damon



From: robert winfield <winfield...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 8:41:54 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Rod Hower
Cc: damon henry
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Fiat ups the amount lo$t on each 500e sold> (a 2012 
compliance EV) r:87mi

"An ICE vehicle just needs a stamped piece of metal to store it's energy.  An 
EV needs a complicated, expensive battery (or pie in the sky fuel cell)."

It's the fuel that goes inside the stamped piece of metal, or the "complicated, 
expensive battery"

where do you get the fuel, "gasoline" or the fuel "sunlight"?

personally, i have been partially opting for "sunlight" since 1999 with a tiny 
PV array, and am hopefully on track for a much larger PV array so my "partial" 
can change to almost or even 100% or greater



From: damon henry via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
To: Rod Hower <rodho...@ameritech.net>; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Cc: damon henry <damonhe...@hotmail.com>
Sent: Friday, October 6, 2017 11:31 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Fiat ups the amount lo$t on each 500e sold> (a 2012 
compliance EV) r:87mi

I don't disagree with your assessment of less complexity, more reliability, but 
the less expensive part is tough to accomplish.  This is primarily because of 
the energy storage systems.  An ICE vehicle just needs a stamped piece of metal 
to store it's energy.  An EV needs a complicated, expensive battery (or pie in 
the sky fuel cell).  There will always be a huge price difference in this part 
of the technology regardless of mass production economics, so the cost 
difference will have to made up elsewhere.  The most likely place would be the 
drivetrain, since the rest of the vehicle is kind of a wash,  If you can build 
the electric motor/inverter/gear reduction for less than internal combustion 
engine/transmission/control electronics, you have a chance of matching price 
for comparable vehicles.


Damon


From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org<mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org>> on 
behalf of Rod Hower via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>>
Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 5:09:38 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Rod Hower
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Fiat ups the amount lo$t on each 500e sold> (a 2012 
compliance EV) r:87mi

>From an engineering viewpoint, EV's are much less complex than an internal 
>combustion engine.  Instead of thousands of parts trying to put lipstick on a 
>pig to increase emissions, you have a simple electric motor with a couple of 
>bearings.  The inverter is complex electronics, but not anymore than all of 
>the modules created to control an engine and keep emissions in check.  How 
>many electric motor or inverter failures have you heard about?  The battery 
>system is complex and in transition, but the range is increasing and 
>complexity is less than that for an ICE.  I see far less failure possibilities 
>in an EV and believe that in mass production they are considerably cheaper to 
>produce than an ICE.  I think the automotive industry is beginning to realize 
>this but it does create problems for the resale market that keeps cars on the 
>road (for example, Autozone, no oil changes or filters, almost no brakes or 
>calipers, no antifreeze, mufflers, O2 sensors etc. for them to sale).  Tesla 
>change
d the game and it's downhill from here for the ICE!


On Thursday, October 5, 2017 5:30 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org<mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org>> wrote:


Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Fiat ups the amount lo$t on each 500e sold> (a
2012 compliance EV)

Business that are only in anything only to make a quick buck will always
fail in the long run.  Building any car takes hundreds of millions of dollar
investment in new engineering and tooling.  Only a fool or a crook would try
to get that all back in selling just a few hundred cars.

No, ALL cars, not just EV's have to sell hundreds of thousands to be
"profitable" its just the cost of doing business.

Remember the big right wing commentators that said that a Chevy Volt cost
more than a Hummer?  Because they simply took all that was invested by GM
over the previous 8 years of designing and building the Volt and then
divided by the first 1000 cars sold and came up with a HUGE cost.

Only the stupid would belie

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Fiat ups the amount lo$t on each 500e sold> (a 2012 compliance EV) r:87mi

[damon henry via EV]

I don't disagree with your assessment of less complexity, more reliability, but 
the less expensive part is tough to accomplish.  This is primarily because of 
the energy storage systems.  An ICE vehicle just needs a stamped piece of metal 
to store it's energy.  An EV needs a complicated, expensive battery (or pie in 
the sky fuel cell).  There will always be a huge price difference in this part 
of the technology regardless of mass production economics, so the cost 
difference will have to made up elsewhere.  The most likely place would be the 
drivetrain, since the rest of the vehicle is kind of a wash,  If you can build 
the electric motor/inverter/gear reduction for less than internal combustion 
engine/transmission/control electronics, you have a chance of matching price 
for comparable vehicles.


Damon


From: EV  on behalf of Rod Hower via EV 

Sent: Thursday, October 5, 2017 5:09:38 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Rod Hower
Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Fiat ups the amount lo$t on each 500e sold> (a 2012 
compliance EV) r:87mi

>From an engineering viewpoint, EV's are much less complex than an internal 
>combustion engine.  Instead of thousands of parts trying to put lipstick on a 
>pig to increase emissions, you have a simple electric motor with a couple of 
>bearings.  The inverter is complex electronics, but not anymore than all of 
>the modules created to control an engine and keep emissions in check.  How 
>many electric motor or inverter failures have you heard about?  The battery 
>system is complex and in transition, but the range is increasing and 
>complexity is less than that for an ICE.  I see far less failure possibilities 
>in an EV and believe that in mass production they are considerably cheaper to 
>produce than an ICE.  I think the automotive industry is beginning to realize 
>this but it does create problems for the resale market that keeps cars on the 
>road (for example, Autozone, no oil changes or filters, almost no brakes or 
>calipers, no antifreeze, mufflers, O2 sensors etc. for them to sale).  Tesla 
>change
 d the game and it's downhill from here for the ICE!


On Thursday, October 5, 2017 5:30 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
 wrote:


 Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Fiat ups the amount lo$t on each 500e sold> (a
2012 compliance EV)

Business that are only in anything only to make a quick buck will always
fail in the long run.  Building any car takes hundreds of millions of dollar
investment in new engineering and tooling.  Only a fool or a crook would try
to get that all back in selling just a few hundred cars.

No, ALL cars, not just EV's have to sell hundreds of thousands to be
"profitable" its just the cost of doing business.

Remember the big right wing commentators that said that a Chevy Volt cost
more than a Hummer?  Because they simply took all that was invested by GM
over the previous 8 years of designing and building the Volt and then
divided by the first 1000 cars sold and came up with a HUGE cost.

Only the stupid would believe such hogwash...

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] New Electric in the family (PIH)

[damon henry via EV]

Problem is, I think your Leaf is ugly :)  Of course, I feel the same way about 
the new Prius models,  although the Prius Prime has enough tweaks to the 
styling to be ok with me.  Then again, who am I to judge.  I fell in love with 
the looks of my little red Honda Insight back in 2001 and many people think of 
it as ugly...  I seriously have never considered a Leaf though because I don't 
like the looks.  Now the 2018 model is a whole different story.  I think it is 
a much nicer looking car.


BTW - I snapped a photo of my 1970 Datsun Truck EV next to a Leaf the other 
day.  I think of the Leaf as a small car, yet it looks larger in the picture 
than my truck.  How times have changed.


As far as charging stations, there is only one that we are concerned with, and 
that is at home.  She is the typical use case that has been discussed on this 
list many times where 90% of her driving is covered with the electric range she 
has available, and since it is a plug-in hybrid with a full tank of gas 
available, there is never any range anxiety.


Damon


From: EV  on behalf of Lawrence Rhodes via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 9:51:05 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Lawrence Rhodes
Subject: Re: [EVDL] New Electric in the family (PIH)

Well lets hope she can find charging stations close enough.  However after 
doing the math your Prius Prime only gets 56.6 mpg in the real world driving 
the full range.  My 30 kw Leaf cost $13,550 new and gets close to 120mpgE for 
real.  I suspect the higher figure is on electric only.  Which is impressive.   
 Lawrence 
Rhodeshttp://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473-488-90/60/6004/ITDB100Z/posters/mick-stevens-it-runs-on-its-conventional-gasoline-powered-engine-until-it-senses-guilt-new-yorker-cartoon.jpg
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[EVDL] Great device for Zilla owners.

[damon henry via EV]

I just purchased one of these 
https://www.amazon.com/NuVision-Touchscreen-Quad-Core-Processor-Windows/dp/B01H3B17R8/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8
 to run ZillaView http://www.evgear.com.au/zillaview.html  and it works great.



If you  have a Zilla controller, it makes for a great $80 meter that shows lots 
of interesting real time information in a very readable format.


You can also download a copy of Putty http://www.putty.org/ or use another 
serial communication program to access the Zillas native interface.


There are a couple of quirks that  are worth mentioning.  There is only a 
single micro usb port, which also acts as the charging port.  This is not an 
issue in my case as the "up to 6 hours of battery life" is plenty for my needs. 
 You will need an USB to serial adapter which I already have 
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=3726.  Also, I am not able to get 
ZillaView to recognize input from the Windows 10 onscreen keyboard, but again I 
already have a bluetooth keyboard 
https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Bluetooth-Keyboard-Android-Devices/dp/B005OOKNP4
 so that was not an issue for me.


Overall I think this is a great device.  It is nice to be able to try different 
speeds in different gears and compare motor amps/volts to battery amps/volts, 
and also see the RPM of my motor.  I already have an Evision meter in my truck 
which shows me all the battery side information, but when I compare the ~$700 I 
paid for that, this solution seems like even more of a bargain.


Damon



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[EVDL] On the Road Again

[damon henry via EV]

Yesterday was my birthday and for my birthday present this year I decided to 
complete my lithium conversion on my 1970 Datsun Truck http://evalbum.com/1524 
and start driving it again.  I finished up a couple of days ahead of schedule.  
The truck has been sitting waiting for new batteries for the last 3 or 4 years 
now.  I have not been EVless in the mean time as I have been riding my 
motorcycle about 1000 miles a year during the summer, but it is great to get my 
truck back to keep me dry during the rainy NW winters.  I picked up 4 Chevy 
Volt (48 volt) modules which are now my new traction pack and included a new 
DC/DC in the upgrade.  I also  took care of some brake and clutch issues that 
cropped up during the downtime.  For charging I special ordered some 6 amp 
Constant Current chargers set to cutoff at 49.8 volts from China, one for each 
module.  I still have my 50 amp Anderson connectors in place which I can use 
with any appropriate 96 volt charger as well.

I was so happy when I plugged in the new pack for the first time and the Zilla 
woke up and spun the motor just fine.  Also, my cooling fan for the motor and 
water pump for the Zilla cooling both kicked in and ran as desired once the 
motor warmed up.  I was able to drive the truck to work and show it off for the 
first time Friday, which was fun.  I started a new job last November for a 
company that does control systems for paper mills, so I am surrounded by 
engineers who really enjoyed the show and tell.

I considered getting rid of the truck a couple of years ago and just buying a 
used Leaf, but in the end, I decided I will always like my truck more than I 
ever would a Leaf.  It took a couple of years of patience until I felt it was 
the right time to tackle this project again, but I am very happy with the 
results :)

I do not plan on ever doing another conversion project however.  My truck and 
motorcycle may get upgrades and continue to live on, but any future EVs will be 
factory made.  It's great to finally have that option.

Damon
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Re: [EVDL] Adventures in golf carts.

[damon henry via EV]

Ahhh, ok.  I certainly feel the same way about that on any road going vehicle.  
I've been enjoying lithium in my motorcycle for a couple of years now and I'm 
in the process of converting my truck to lithium as well, but for me lead acid 
would be fine in a little tractor like this.


Damon


From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Gail Lucas via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 3:58:15 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Gail Lucas
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Adventures in golf carts.

Damon,
I think Willie would rather fill his pockets with rocks than use lead
acid batteries if he needed weight. Maybe would put a burro on the seat
beside him.

On 8/18/2017 2:47 PM, damon henry via EV wrote:
> Just know that on tractors  weight is sometimes needed, so lead acid can 
> actually be a good choice.  It all depends on which implements you want to 
> use.  For just mowing the lawn probably not, but for pushing snow or dirt you 
> may like a little lead in your batteries.
>
>
> Damon
>
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Re: [EVDL] Adventures in golf carts.

[damon henry via EV]

Just know that on tractors  weight is sometimes needed, so lead acid can 
actually be a good choice.  It all depends on which implements you want to use. 
 For just mowing the lawn probably not, but for pushing snow or dirt you may 
like a little lead in your batteries.


Damon


From: EV  on behalf of Willie via EV 

Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 11:51:39 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc: Willie
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Adventures in golf carts.



On 08/18/2017 01:33 PM, Gail Lucas via EV wrote:
> Willie,
> The description sounds like it uses lead acid batteries which I think
> you are trying to avoid.

Golf carts use lead batteries.  It's pretty straightforward to
substitute lithium.  If the guy is actually making Electrak knockoffs, I
imagine he would be willing to sell without batteries.  Makes shipping
at least somewhat cheaper.  I further imagine that he prefers to sell
without batteries and advises his customers on what to acquire once
tractor arrives.

>
> On 8/18/2017 11:15 AM, Willie via EV wrote:
>
>>
>> http://www.aclectrictractors.com/tractors.html
>>
>> It looks like he is not making any or many.  But, I've got a query in.
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Re: [EVDL] Weird Nissan Leaf behavior: 3rd charging light blinks after new pack install: cold weather package...

[damon henry via EV]

You do realize this is for switching off the 12v SLA battery usually when it is 
not under load right?


I've used a bunch of these over the years and they are fairly beefy for the job 
they are asked to do.  I even have one on my motorcycle and it easily carries 
my full traction pack voltage and current 48v 400 amps.  I don't expect it to 
switch that off under load, but I put it in the circuit so that I could 
completely disconnect my motor controller during charging.  I have a properly 
rated contactor on the other side of the circuit for any emergency shut offs.


These switches are more than up to the task of disconnecting the 12 volt 
battery for years without fail.  I'm just not sure if Cor is the type to settle 
for an ugly hack like this to a complicated problem.  He seems more like the 
type to grind through and uncover a proper solution, but even if that is the 
case this could be a temporary solution.


Damon




From: ROBERT <bhensle...@msn.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2017 12:30 PM
To: Cor van de Water; damon henry; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Weird Nissan Leaf behavior: 3rd charging light blinks after 
new pack install: cold weather package...


A battery cut off switch with only weak mechanical specs.  No maximum number of 
switching operations, etc. Now, that is interesting.


From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of damon henry via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 6, 2017 7:37 AM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Weird Nissan Leaf behavior: 3rd charging light blinks after 
new pack install: cold weather package...

Hi Cor,


I'm not sure how much help you will get on a proper solution as you are kind of 
out there on the bleeding edge with the Leaf battery replacement thing and 
usually the one providing the answers :)


A possible hack might be installing a battery cutoff switch for the 12 volt 
battery.  Harbor Freight sells them for $8.

https://www.harborfreight.com/battery-cutoff-switch-63425.html
[https://shop.harborfreight.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/i/m/image_27328.jpg]<https://www.harborfreight.com/battery-cutoff-switch-63425.html>

Battery Cutoff Switch - Harbor Freight 
Tools<https://www.harborfreight.com/battery-cutoff-switch-63425.html>
www.harborfreight.com
Amazing deals on this Battery Cut Off Switch at Harbor Freight. Quality tools & 
low prices.




Damon



From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Monday, July 3, 2017 6:11:47 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] Weird Nissan Leaf behavior: 3rd charging light blinks after new 
pack install: cold weather package...

OK, I did something to my Leaf that I need to get fixed, because now the
Leaf is charging the 12V battery whenever the car should be asleep,

as a result it is losing charge from the main pack.

It started two days ago when I removed the new (warranty replacement
battery) from this 2012 Leaf SL with cold weather package.

I do not know why it has a cold weather package, being in California it
never gets below freezing in a car so a cold weather package is quite
odd, but anyhow.

I installed a 2011 battery, apparently without cold weather package
knowledge in the LBC.

Since then, every time the car is supposed to sleep, it starts blinking
the 3rd charging LED and is actually charging the 12V battery to 14.4V
continuously,

resulting in 1 mile range loss every hour.

Anybody have a clue how to get the car to stop being confused about the
cold weather package?

Does the LBC need to be reprogrammed? I can modify the configuration
(serial) memory of the LBC, if I know what to change.

Or should I have the car's computer reprogrammed to tell it to forget
about the cold weather package? I do not need it!

Don't really want to pull the 12V battery contact off every time I want
to park the car more than a day and the energy loss

is quite a waste as well...

Any Leaf experts out there?
Cor.



BTW, the model nrs of the new 2017 battery that I removed and the 2011
battery that I installed:

2017 battery: 295B09RB9D

2011 battery: 295B03NA0A

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Re: [EVDL] Weird Nissan Leaf behavior: 3rd charging light blinks after new pack install: cold weather package...

[damon henry via EV]

Hi Cor,


I'm not sure how much help you will get on a proper solution as you are kind of 
out there on the bleeding edge with the Leaf battery replacement thing and 
usually the one providing the answers :)


A possible hack might be installing a battery cutoff switch for the 12 volt 
battery.  Harbor Freight sells them for $8.

https://www.harborfreight.com/battery-cutoff-switch-63425.html


Damon



From: EV  on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV 

Sent: Monday, July 3, 2017 6:11:47 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] Weird Nissan Leaf behavior: 3rd charging light blinks after new 
pack install: cold weather package...

OK, I did something to my Leaf that I need to get fixed, because now the
Leaf is charging the 12V battery whenever the car should be asleep,

as a result it is losing charge from the main pack.

It started two days ago when I removed the new (warranty replacement
battery) from this 2012 Leaf SL with cold weather package.

I do not know why it has a cold weather package, being in California it
never gets below freezing in a car so a cold weather package is quite
odd, but anyhow.

I installed a 2011 battery, apparently without cold weather package
knowledge in the LBC.

Since then, every time the car is supposed to sleep, it starts blinking
the 3rd charging LED and is actually charging the 12V battery to 14.4V
continuously,

resulting in 1 mile range loss every hour.

Anybody have a clue how to get the car to stop being confused about the
cold weather package?

Does the LBC need to be reprogrammed? I can modify the configuration
(serial) memory of the LBC, if I know what to change.

Or should I have the car's computer reprogrammed to tell it to forget
about the cold weather package? I do not need it!

Don't really want to pull the 12V battery contact off every time I want
to park the car more than a day and the energy loss

is quite a waste as well...

Any Leaf experts out there?
Cor.



BTW, the model nrs of the new 2017 battery that I removed and the 2011
battery that I installed:

2017 battery: 295B09RB9D

2011 battery: 295B03NA0A

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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: I need a plugin Hybrid! (Cmax Energi?)

[damon henry via EV]

I would suggest the Hyundai Sonata Plug-in.  It is a very comfortable quiet car 
with a 27 mile electric range and room for 5 passengers.  It has only been out 
for a couple of years, so you might not find one as used as you are looking for 
though.


Damon


From: EV  on behalf of Bill Woodcock via EV 

Sent: Sunday, March 5, 2017 6:14:42 PM
To: Cor van de Water; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fwd: I need a plugin Hybrid! (Cmax Energi?)


> I need a USED Plugin Hybrid that is NOT a Prius (range too short) or
> Volt (Perfect, but wife wants 5 seat belts).
>
> Is the Ford Cmax Energi the only affordable thing left?.
> Does anyone have one?  Anything about it you dont like?

Yeah, we’ve got a C-Max Energi, got it when they came out, and it’s been our 
primary driver ever since.  We’ve also got a Focus EV, Smart ED, and Model X, 
so I’ll compare it to those.

Obviously the Focus is what it’s most similar to…  In a lot of ways, the C-Max 
just a slightly taller Focus.  That means more headroom and legroom, and since 
the sitting posture is more vertical, more front-to-back room generally.  There 
are also little under-floor cargo compartments in the back seat that don’t 
exist in the Focus, and there’s a somewhat higher degree of automation, 
generally…  The specific feature that we wind up using a ton, that doesn’t 
exist on the Focus (or any of the other cars we have or have had), is the 
automated rear hatch…  Wave your foot under the rear bumper, and the rear hatch 
opens.  Great for loading groceries with both arms full, or when you’re holding 
a kid in one arm.

EV-only range is 16mi-20mi, depending on who’s driving, which is more than 
enough for most days around town.  Occasionally we’ll leave it out overnight, 
or loan it to someone else, and it’ll dip into the gas tank.  Fortunately the 
gas tank self-vacuum-seals, with a pump that evacuates the air so the gas won’t 
go stale.  The tank is nominally 14 gallons, we generally wind up adding about 
ten gallons every two or three months.  So, not quite 
no-trips-to-the-gas-station-at-all, but we generally just get it washed and 
replace the window-washer fluid while we’re there.  Not as bad as visiting the 
gas station every week, with an ICE.  We’ve taken it on longer road-trips 
occasionally, and usually 110V charge it overnight as we travel, which at least 
helps a little bit.  Now that we have the Model X, we’d just take that instead.

Relative to the Model X, it’s easy to park, fast to charge, and there isn’t the 
“will-they-or-won’t-they” guessing-game quality to the back doors.  And because 
it’s not an expensive vehicle, my wife can run it into trees and walls and 
stuff without feeling too guilty.

Relative to the Smart, it’s sort of the opposite of the Model X…  The Smart is 
much easier to park, and feels like a go-kart…  you can just kinda sling it 
around, and if it were to fall apart or whatever, you could pick up another off 
of eBay any time.  No sign of that yet, it’s been perfectly stable and 
reliable, but it’s also as much more “manual” than the C-Max as the C-Max is 
from the Tesla…  No backup cameras, gizmos, automation, just a car.  But also, 
just two seats.

We really love the C-Max.  I hadn’t anticipated that I would, I’ve always been 
a car guy, and assumed that it would be too aesthetically unappealing to be 
lovable, but it just winds up seeming practical and convenient, rather than 
ugly.

-Bill




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Re: [EVDL] Chevy S10 conversion to give away

[damon henry via EV]

Well, Lee has friends in all sorts of places.  I'm sure that if he really wants 
to visit the Northwest and trailer a dead EV back to Minnesota we could take 
care of getting the EV off the street and someplace safe for him for a while.  
John Wayland has a rig and a spot to park it at his house and I'm sure he would 
love to coax Lee to make a trip out here.  John does not monitor this list any 
longer, but I could facilitate getting the ball rolling on this end.  I 
personally would love to get a chance to meet Lee in person after interacting 
on the EVDL for so long.


Damon


From: EV  on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV 

Sent: Monday, January 9, 2017 11:19:10 AM
To: Brett Davis; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Chevy S10 conversion to give away

I understand that Lee does want to get it, but since he needs several days to 
make it over there, needs someone local to keep it for up to a week so he is 
guaranteed to have the vehicle when he shows up. Nothing like a bummer when you 
dodge weather for a week of driving and the truck was just picked up the 
morning that you arrived. He was pretty clear that if the truck is guaranteed 
to be there, then he will pick it up.
Cor

> On Jan 9, 2017, at 5:20 AM, Brett Davis via EV  wrote:
>
> If Lee does not get it, I may be interested. It's just a matter of timing.
> And whether I fly in and U-haul it back or drive up with a trailer from
> Utah.
>
> You have the exact motor and controller that I was eyeballing a couple
> years ago for a build.
>
> Brett
>
>> On Jan 8, 2017 11:23 PM, "Lee Hart via EV"  wrote:
>>
>> SLPinfo.org via EV wrote:
>>
>>> This EV is now available for free. MUST BE TAKEN COMPLETE.  WILL NOT PART
>>> IT OUT. If you want parts you must take it all and dispose of the
>>> remainder
>>> yourself. Will provide clean and clear title.
>>>
>>
>> Hi Peter,
>>
>> I'd be glad to take it, fix it, and find a good home. But I'm in
>> Minnesota... it will take me a week or so to get there. I wouldn't want to
>> make the trip unless I knew it was available!
>>
>> --
>> Teaching children to program goes against the grain of modern education.
>> Just imagine the chaos if they learned to think logically, plan, create,
>> implement, test, and execute!
>> --
>> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, 
>> www.sunrise-ev.com
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>>
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery pack connector

[damon henry via EV]

Actually the ones I bought were brand new SANS one rally car race in the back 
of the White Zombie.  So they had somewhere between 50-80 miles of use on them.


Damon


From: EV  on behalf of Cruisin via EV 

Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2016 12:06:06 PM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery pack connector

Those Volt modules you bought from a junkie are of old technology and lower
AH than the newer Brand New Volt modules you can buy on Ebay at the same
price.

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery pack connector

[damon henry via EV]

I picked up 4 48 volt 45ahr Volt modules for my truck for $500 a piece, $2000 
total.  That seems to be in the ballpark of the going rate.  It's all sitting 
in my garage waiting for me to put everything together.  I may add more Volt 
modules later if I like what I have and want to extend my range.


I've also had very good luck with these chargers from China.  I special ordered 
some with the end voltage set to 49.8 volts.  They do 6 amps CC/CV.  I got one 
for each volt module.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Quality-Aluminum-Housing-48V-5A-6A-Li-ion-Battery-Charger/422560048.html
[https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB19SAjKpXtXpXXq6xXFXXXK/High-Quality-Aluminum-Housing-48V-54-6V-6A-amp-13S-Li-ion-LiPo-Battery-Charger-for.jpg]

High Quality Aluminum Housing 48V (54.6V) 6A (amp) 13S Li ion/LiPo Battery 
Charger for Electric Bike/Scooter Use on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba 
Group
www.aliexpress.com
Cheap battery charger automatic, Buy Quality charger dvd directly from China 
battery 12ah Suppliers: Aluminum Housing 48V (54.6V) 6A (amp) 13S Li-ion/LiPo 
Battery Charger  Input: 110VAC (US, Japan) 

I have placed several orders with these guys and I've had good results.  I 
originally found them because someone else on the EVDL mentioned them.

Damon


From: EV  on behalf of John Lussmyer via EV 

Sent: Friday, December 23, 2016 8:39:28 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; tomw
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf battery pack connector

On Fri Dec 23 08:09:39 PST 2016 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>May I ask why the two of you (John, Cor) decided to use Leaf packs rather
>than Volt packs?

Mainly Price and Availability.  I converted my truck to Leaf modules about 2 
1/2 years ago.
Do you have current price and availability of either Volt or Tesla modules?


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Re: [EVDL] 4th-gen is the "smartest" 42ED EV yet r:160km ts:130kph, 0-100kph:11.5s

[damon henry via EV]

 downtown Portland,
which is one of the centers of EV everything on the west coast.  I
enjoyed daily seeing a variety of OEM EVs plugged into the charging
stations out front.  There is still not nearly the selection to choose
from as there is for "normal" vehicles, but there has never been a time
when you had so many to choose from.  If you see something you like, you
can simply write a check and it can be yours, but it still feels a bit
fleeting to me.  I worry that I will wake up someday in the very near
future and I'll be back to having to build my own...



Damon



From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Cor van de Water via
EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 10:20:51 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 4th-gen is the "smartest" 42ED EV yet r:160km
ts:130kph, 0-100kph:11.5s



During commute times, almost every 5th car that you see on the road in
Silicon Valley is a Leaf so I'd say that for intended purpose, this is a
very successful OEM car.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of damon henry via
EV
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 9:26 AM
To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 4th-gen is the "smartest" 42ED EV yet r:160km
ts:130kph,0-100kph:11.5s

Successful OEM electric vehicle???  Has there truly been one yet?
Perhaps the Nissan Leaf, but I think the jury is still out on whether
this EV thing will ever work out or not.  I'm hopeful it will.


As far as EVs and transmissions I agree with you that they are not
generally necessary on vehicles engineered from the ground up as
electric, but perhaps one will make sense in someone's engineering/cost
tradeoff list.


I have the original transmission in my Datsun Truck Conversion and it is
quite nice, but it is there because it was free and allowed me to use a
smaller motor and provides a reverse gear.  On my motorcycle conversion
I have a single gear ratio direct drive and that's fine too.


Damon


From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Bill Dube via EV
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 9:11:52 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 4th-gen is the "smartest" 42ED EV yet r:160km
ts:130kph,0-100kph:11.5s

CVT transmission? In an EV? Seriously?

No successful OEM electric vehicle has any sort of transmission, at
least none that I am aware of.
Touting a transmission on a prototype EV is a huge red flag. It shows
that the design team is very inexperienced (or was overruled by
management, which has the same result, unfortunately.)

We can hope that the journalist that wrote the article got the facts
wrong.

Bill D.

On 12/22/2016 3:44 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-2017-4
th-gen-is-the-smartest-42ED-EV-yet-r-160km-ts-130kph-0-100kph-11-5s-td46
84960.html
> EVLN: 2017 4th-gen is the "smartest" 42ED EV yet r:160km ts:130kph
> 0-100kph:11.5s
> The smartest smart car ever
> The first electric smart debuted in 2007 when 100 were tested in
London, ...
> CVT transmission gearing, there is an ECO Mode ...


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Re: [EVDL] 4th-gen is the "smartest" 42ED EV yet r:160km ts:130kph, 0-100kph:11.5s

[damon henry via EV]

Yes, there are Leafs all over the place here in Portland as well, but I'm not 
sure what price Nissan has paid for this.  Between government subsidies and the 
investment that Nissan has made, I'm not sure that the Leaf or any other OEM EV 
has secured a viable future yet.  I personally think the Leaf is hideous to 
look at so will not buy one.


I love the idea of buying an OEM EV though.  I hope I continue to see a variety 
available for purchase.  It looks like there are a few of the new Chevy Bolts 
at dealerships in Portland now, so I hope to go try one out in person soon.


I'm also hoping the Tesla influence pans out well.  I do worry that the whole 
Tesla house of cards may come crumbling to the ground.  So far Tesla has proven 
that by spending billions of other peoples dollars they can put some pretty 
cool cars on the road.  Hopefully the investors' faith in Tesla will payoff 
with a whole new paradigm in the automotive industry and they will be a 
successful and profitable company.


 I spent the first 9 months of 2016 working at PGE in downtown Portland, which 
is one of the centers of EV everything on the west coast.  I enjoyed daily 
seeing a variety of OEM EVs plugged into the charging stations out front.  
There is still not nearly the selection to choose from as there is for "normal" 
vehicles, but there has never been a time when you had so many to choose from.  
If you see something you like, you can simply write a check and it can be 
yours, but it still feels a bit fleeting to me.  I worry that I will wake up 
someday in the very near future and I'll be back to having to build my own...


Damon


From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Cor van de Water via EV 
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 10:20:51 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 4th-gen is the "smartest" 42ED EV yet r:160km ts:130kph, 
0-100kph:11.5s

During commute times, almost every 5th car that you see on the road in
Silicon Valley is a Leaf so I'd say that for intended purpose, this is a
very successful OEM car.

Cor van de Water
Chief Scientist
Proxim Wireless

office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info

http://www.proxim.com

This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
this message is prohibited.


-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of damon henry via
EV
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 9:26 AM
To: Bill Dube; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 4th-gen is the "smartest" 42ED EV yet r:160km
ts:130kph,0-100kph:11.5s

Successful OEM electric vehicle???  Has there truly been one yet?
Perhaps the Nissan Leaf, but I think the jury is still out on whether
this EV thing will ever work out or not.  I'm hopeful it will.


As far as EVs and transmissions I agree with you that they are not
generally necessary on vehicles engineered from the ground up as
electric, but perhaps one will make sense in someone's engineering/cost
tradeoff list.


I have the original transmission in my Datsun Truck Conversion and it is
quite nice, but it is there because it was free and allowed me to use a
smaller motor and provides a reverse gear.  On my motorcycle conversion
I have a single gear ratio direct drive and that's fine too.


Damon


From: EV <ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org> on behalf of Bill Dube via EV
<ev@lists.evdl.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 9:11:52 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 4th-gen is the "smartest" 42ED EV yet r:160km
ts:130kph,0-100kph:11.5s

CVT transmission? In an EV? Seriously?

No successful OEM electric vehicle has any sort of transmission, at
least none that I am aware of.
Touting a transmission on a prototype EV is a huge red flag. It shows
that the design team is very inexperienced (or was overruled by
management, which has the same result, unfortunately.)

We can hope that the journalist that wrote the article got the facts
wrong.

Bill D.

On 12/22/2016 3:44 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>
http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-2017-4
th-gen-is-the-smartest-42ED-EV-yet-r-160km-ts-130kph-0-100kph-11-5s-td46
84960.html
> EVLN: 2017 4th-gen is the "smartest" 42ED EV yet r:160km ts:130kph
> 0-100kph:11.5s
> The smartest smart car ever
> The first electric smart debuted in 2007 when 100 were tested in
London, ...
> CVT transmission gearing, there is an ECO Mode ...


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Re: [EVDL] 4th-gen is the “smartest” 42ED EV yet r:160km ts:130kph,0-100kph:11.5s

[damon henry via EV]

Successful OEM electric vehicle???  Has there truly been one yet?  Perhaps the 
Nissan Leaf, but I think the jury is still out on whether this EV thing will 
ever work out or not.  I'm hopeful it will.


As far as EVs and transmissions I agree with you that they are not generally 
necessary on vehicles engineered from the ground up as electric, but perhaps 
one will make sense in someone's engineering/cost tradeoff list.


I have the original transmission in my Datsun Truck Conversion and it is quite 
nice, but it is there because it was free and allowed me to use a smaller motor 
and provides a reverse gear.  On my motorcycle conversion I have a single gear 
ratio direct drive and that's fine too.


Damon


From: EV  on behalf of Bill Dube via EV 

Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 9:11:52 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] 4th-gen is the “smartest” 42ED EV yet r:160km 
ts:130kph,0-100kph:11.5s

CVT transmission? In an EV? Seriously?

No successful OEM electric vehicle has any sort of transmission, at
least none that I am aware of.
Touting a transmission on a prototype EV is a huge red flag. It shows
that the design team is very inexperienced (or was overruled by
management, which has the same result, unfortunately.)

We can hope that the journalist that wrote the article got the facts wrong.

Bill D.

On 12/22/2016 3:44 AM, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
> http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/EVLN-2017-4th-gen-is-the-smartest-42ED-EV-yet-r-160km-ts-130kph-0-100kph-11-5s-td4684960.html
> EVLN: 2017 4th-gen is the “smartest” 42ED EV yet r:160km ts:130kph
> 0-100kph:11.5s
> The smartest smart car ever
> The first electric smart debuted in 2007 when 100 were tested in London, ...
> CVT transmission gearing, there is an ECO Mode ...


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Re: [EVDL] Sequence of Events contactors

[damon henry via EV]

There is no standard way of handling startup, so to say "most" is a bit 
misleading.  What you describe certainly does not fit the sequence of either of 
my two OEM hybrids, nor does it match my two DIY EVs.  There is no definitive 
answer to the question posted.


Perhaps a better question needs to be asked.  Something a bit more specific.  
For instance, I am planning on converting an ICE to an EV.  What is a safe 
startup sequence to power on my 12 volt and traction circuits and what 
components are required?  Even then, more details are better, for instance do 
you have a DC-DC converter, and what kind of motor controller are you using.


Damon


From: EV  on behalf of Robert Bruninga via EV 

Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2016 7:10:20 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Sequence of Events contactors

Most  EVs and Hybrids have at least three contactors.  The sequence is:
* Close One battery lead  and check for leakage
* Drop that relay and close the other lead with a series resistor and
check for leaks
* Bring the first one back in to power up still via the series resistor
for a few milliseconds to allow the car system to charge all capacitors
* If still no smoke, pull in a main contactor to bypass the resistor.

You can hear the relay dance in any Prius or most other EV's.

There should be NO heavy loads until all of the above are complete.  A
software glitch in the THINK CITY made the mistake of leaving the 4 kW
heater possibly on, so that on the third step above, the 4kW is trying to
go through a 5W 47 ohm resistor and it blows up.  This kills the car, and
all replacement b0oards are gone, most cannot be repaired, and so the
company is out of business and there are lots of THINK CITY's  just
gathering dust.

Bob, WB4aPR
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Re: [EVDL] Should I buy...?

[damon henry via EV]

I could never have one because of the looks.  My wife would never go for it.  I 
did get try out Jay Donoway's a couple of years ago and remember my impression 
at the time was that this is everything I need in an EV.  I would be happy to 
own one.
Damon

> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2016 09:21:51 -0700
> Subject: [EVDL] Should I buy...?
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
> 
> Looks like my first response to this question of Mark's didn't get 
> posted, so here we are again.
> 
> Of all the EV's for sale out there,  Mitsubishi has done the poorest job 
> of marketing ( in the US..)
> In Europe under Peugot, and Citron, they have sold Ten's of Thousands..  
> In the US, I don't think they have sold 10,000  yet... Countless 
> negative automotive reviews.  One really made me mad. This gal said that 
> it was like a slug for acceleration.   REALLY. Zero to 20 cross a normal 
> intersection.  Zero to 55 MPH in 1.5 normal blocks.  Just under 770 in 
> the 1/4...   and 80 MPH+ when my wife is not in the car... ( LOL )
> 
> For me,   I am totally satisfied with my  Mi-EV...  Pronounced  " My - 
> EV"  IT is a top of the line with DVD, MP3, CD, Nav system, Heated 
> seat,  BACK up Camera, Blue Tooth fone, and Delux Stereo system and LED 
> Lighting.   It's a 2012...  and the Waranty is now out to 2022 !!!  You 
> can find these used MY-EV's for round $8000. or LESS. That's My two Cents.
> 
> 
> > --
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2016 07:19:44 -0500
> > From: paul dove via EV 
> > To: Mark Hanson ,   Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> > 
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Should I Buy a Smart ED or a IMIEV or Chevy
> > Spark?: 2014Smart ED Service Manual Help
> > Message-ID: 
> > Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=us-ascii
> >
> > The only thing I ever heard was on EVTV. Jack bought a smart EV that had no 
> > battery and tried to buy one.  He mailed a letter to the head of smart USA 
> > and they said they would sell him a battery for 12,100. I think in a later 
> > video he tried to buy one but they never did sell him one. So he asked them 
> > for the CAN messages so he could build his own and they said that was 
> > proprietary. It is about 8:30 on the video.
> >
> > It's the October 17, 2014 video
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Oct 1, 2016, at 7:10 PM, Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi Folks,
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I didn't get a response on the service manual or where to get a battery for
> >> the Smart ED 2013 - 2015 (used Smart) so I'm thinking maybe I should buy
> >> something else (since the shop manuals/batteries are made of Unobtanium).
> >> I Googled Service manuals for the Mitsubishi IMIev and Chevy Spark; were
> >> available online like the Leaf.  It also looked like you could monitor
> >> individual battery voltages, not sure if you can do that with the Smart ED.
> >> It looks like Mercedes doesn't want to sell any electric Smart ED's ($25K
> >> for a battery replacement and no Service Manuals available.)  The Smart 
> >> also
> >> wants $80 per month battery rental that the other EV's don't require.  I
> >> found from EVwest.com that they have 57V Tesla battery replacement modules
> >> for $1k for the 2013 Smart only, 2014 on is the Deutsche ACCUmotive for 
> >> $25K
> >> replacement.  So maybe I should buy that with a Smart 2013?  Sounds like
> >> that may be the only serviceable Smart unless buying two wrecked one's to
> >> combine parts when the cells start to crap out.  Or maybe like on
> >> EValbum.com convert one from gas like another guy did on an 05' model - but
> >> it would be nice to have regen.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Mark Hanson [mailto:mhan...@hughes.net]
> >> Sent: Monday, September 26, 2016 7:45 PM
> >> To: 'ev@lists.evdl.org'
> >> Subject: RE: 2014 Smart ED Service Manual Help
> >>
> >>
> 
> 
> -- 
> Steven S Lough
> PRESIDENT EMERITUS
> Seattle EV Association
> Web:  www.seattleeva.org
> 206 524 1351
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Prepping power supply as onboard charger

[damon henry via EV]

Thanks Cor for the feedback.  I had not considered the need to limit the 
current beyond the internal overcurrent protection.  I will have to look into 
that further as well.  That might actually be enough to swing me in a different 
direction.  I have been very happy with a 6 amp charging solution for my 
motorcycle from a Chinese lithium charger.  I have verified with the 
manufacturer that I can get the same charger with the cutoff voltage I want, 
but decided to also try out the Meanwell.  The price for both solutions is 
comparable but the 10 amp charging vs 6 amp seemed like a significant advantage 
for the Meanwell route, but maybe not as significant if I need to dial that 
back...
damon

> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2016 09:04:19 -0700
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Prepping power supply as onboard charger
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
> 
> Definitely put it in a dry place and if you can mount it with some shock
> absorbing then that might be beneficial, but the frame of a vehicle
> typical does not move fast enough to put a lot of stress on electronics,
> it is more the vibrations and an EV has a lot less of those.
> Note that Meanwell supplies are typically spec'ed to work off AC and DC
> power and we have used them in large numbers in test setups for 48V
> power, but those do not get powered off very often, so I cannot speak
> about how it holds up with daily power cycling.
> Another thing is the current limit that is required for a charger: the
> Meanwells have a built-in overcurrent protection, which means that you
> will be running the supply at 110 - 120% output all the time. They
> typically also have an overtemp protection, but make sure that you are
> not giving them a short unhappy life by constant pushing them to the
> edge of their operational environment.
> It is relatively simple to add a small circuit to measure current and
> affect the 2.5V voltage reference to throttle back the supply at a lower
> current than its overcurrent protection limit.
> Hope this gives some ideas,
> 
> Cor van de Water 
> Chief Scientist 
> Proxim Wireless 
>   
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 
> 
> http://www.proxim.com
> 
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
> this message is prohibited.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of damon henry via
> EV
> Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2016 8:40 AM
> To: EV List
> Subject: [EVDL] Prepping power supply as onboard charger
> 
> I am looking to upgrade my truck to lithium and I'm investigating
> charging options.  I decided to test out a Meanwell SP-480-48.  I found
> a brand new one on Ebay for $90.   According to the spec sheet
> (http://www.meanwell.com/webapp/product/search.aspx?prod=sp-480) they
> are adjustable from 41 - 56V.  This fits within the range I use on my
> 48V motorcyle where I currently charge to 54.6 volts, as well as half my
> proposed 96 volt pack for my truck which I think I will want to charge
> to 49.8 volts.  The thought is to set the voltage where I want the pack
> to end up and just let it charge.  I will test this on my bench to make
> sure I'm happy with the results.
> If I am happy with the results, I am then concerned with two items if I
> want to make an onboard charger for my truck out of two of these.
> First, is inrush current.  It does not appear these are built to be
> constantly reconnected to Line voltage as the spec sheet indicates they
> have a typical inrush current of 20 amps on 115v AC.  So I would need to
> design a simple inrush limiter, automated would be preferred, although a
> simple switch with a resistor wired across it is not out of the
> question.  Any suggestions on simple automated inrush circuits?  My
> second concern is that I doubt these are meant to travel.  If I were to
> crack it open and take a look at the guts, what would be typical things
> to look for in order to ruggedize this for a mobile life.  Would it be
> easier to be sure that it is mounted in a dry ventilated space with some
> kind of rubber mounting or to actually try to protect the components on
> the board itself.
> Damon   
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[EVDL] Prepping power supply as onboard charger

[damon henry via EV]

I am looking to upgrade my truck to lithium and I'm investigating charging 
options.  I decided to test out a Meanwell SP-480-48.  I found a brand new one 
on Ebay for $90.   According to the spec sheet 
(http://www.meanwell.com/webapp/product/search.aspx?prod=sp-480) they are 
adjustable from 41 - 56V.  This fits within the range I use on my 48V motorcyle 
where I currently charge to 54.6 volts, as well as half my proposed 96 volt 
pack for my truck which I think I will want to charge to 49.8 volts.  The 
thought is to set the voltage where I want the pack to end up and just let it 
charge.  I will test this on my bench to make sure I'm happy with the results.
If I am happy with the results, I am then concerned with two items if I want to 
make an onboard charger for my truck out of two of these.  First, is inrush 
current.  It does not appear these are built to be constantly reconnected to 
Line voltage as the spec sheet indicates they have a typical inrush current of 
20 amps on 115v AC.  So I would need to design a simple inrush limiter, 
automated would be preferred, although a simple switch with a resistor wired 
across it is not out of the question.  Any suggestions on simple automated 
inrush circuits?  My second concern is that I doubt these are meant to travel.  
If I were to crack it open and take a look at the guts, what would be typical 
things to look for in order to ruggedize this for a mobile life.  Would it be 
easier to be sure that it is mounted in a dry ventilated space with some kind 
of rubber mounting or to actually try to protect the components on the board 
itself.
Damon 
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: Re: France fire model S

[damon henry via EV]

Seriously, this is just another case of someone on the internet floating an 
idea that popped into their head and finding others who are glad to believe it 
and pass it along.
I'm not saying they are not anit-EV, I am just saying it has nothing to do with 
the lack of advertising being spent by Tesla.  Now you are arguing that it is 
because of brand.  Have you tracked which car companies are advertising the 
most on this station.  Do you know for sure that Tesla is the only car company 
in the world that has not bought advertising from them.  If this truly is the 
case, what do you suppose the bounty threshold is to keep them from running 
negative stories against your car company?  Is a single commercial a year 
enough?  If you have a major safety recall do you suppose they will not cover 
it if you are their number one advertiser?
Of course I know nothing about the TV station involved either, I just find the 
original assertion nonsensical and highly unlikely.

Damon


> The OP failed to make the obvious point that Tesla's competitors ARE 
> heavy advertisers.  The "yacht makers", whose competitors are not 
> bringing pressure to the media, is a poor analogy.
> 
> Thanks to Bruce for illustrating the astonishing volume of coverage of 
> that insignificant incident.
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: Re: France fire model S

[damon henry via EV]

I'm going to have to call BS on this theory.  Can you even begin to count the 
number of consumer products from the number of different companies that do not 
advertise on TV.  I do not recall ever seeing a yacht manufacturer commercial 
on any of the TV stations I have watched.  If I did watch any of these so 
called "News" channels I'm pretty confident I would not see any negative news 
stories about yacht makers just because they are not advertising on these 
stations.  I could list category after category of products like this...
An electric car fire is news because it is still somewhat of a new phenomena 
and the risks are not well understood.  People have been driving around with a 
huge tank full of gas in their cars for their entire lives and seen way more 
ICE car fires than they likely ever will see EV car fires.  An ICE car fire is 
no longer sensational or headline worthy.
Damon
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2016 12:09:59 -0500
> Subject: [EVDL] Fwd: Re: France fire model S
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
> 
> On the topic of EV media bias in general and the astonishing amount of 
> coverage being given to the French Tesla fire, this was posted to a 
> local Tesla list and I deemed it worth repeating here:
> 
> ---
> 
> No TV station is going to like a car company that is doing a great job 
> at increasing its sales, profit and revenue *without placing any 
> commercials on television whatsoever*, and that's exactly what Tesla is 
> doing.
> 
> Therefore, there is a whole lot of negative bias - founded on suspicion, 
> basically - regarding Tesla on *commercial television channels*.
> 
> Fox and CNBC are two examples of where I see negative Tesla bias on a 
> daily basis.
> ---
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: EVLN: GM's 1st 200mi EV will launch as a driverless (autonomous) Lyft platform

[damon henry via EV]

I still say that the majority of American drivers who think they will never 
trust an autonomous vehicle will change their minds as soon as the insurance 
companies offer them $5 less a month on their auto insurance :)
Damon

> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2016 20:15:04 +
> To: pe...@kotatko.com; ev@lists.evdl.org; ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fwd: EVLN: GM's 1st 200mi EV will launch as a driverless 
> (autonomous) Lyft platform
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
> 
> The thing is Peri,
> There are so many possibilities while driving how can one ever test software 
> enough to know 
> that you have covered every likely possibility. Even so, when there is a 
> crash and I am sitting 
> in the backseat letting the vehicle drive who is responsible for the damage, 
> injuries or possible death?
> Tesla leaves the responsibility on the driver and I'm not sure it will ever 
> move away from that model.
> 
> 
>   From: Peri Hartman via EV 
>  To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
>  Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 1:09 PM
>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fwd: EVLN: GM's 1st 200mi EV will launch as a driverless 
> (autonomous) Lyft platform
>
> I think the big issue will be dealing with the nature of the crashes. 
> While we have plenty of accidents and fatalities with human drivers 
> today, most of the time those humans mitigate the accident by reacting 
> and doing something. That probably helps, even if the result includes a 
> fatality (but some survivors). Putting statistics aside for a moment, 
> consider that you are "helpless" in an autonomous car crash.
> 
> With autonomous vehicles, I see most failures as being catastrophic. 
> That is, the software will be completely unaware there is a pending 
> crash. Of course, it depends on the details of the situation. 
> Regardless, I think - if enough autonomous car deaths occur - people 
> will fear the prospect of a catastrophic crash more than they fear being 
> involved in a mitigated human-controlled crash.
> 
> In other words, if you are a safe, alert driver, will you be 
> statistically more likely to die in an autonomous car crash then in one 
> where you are in control - or vice versa? Overall, I'm quite certain the 
> statistics will point to the autonomous car being safer. But maybe not 
> for a small percentage of truly careful drivers.
> 
> Peri
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Sent: 26-Jul-16 10:57:17 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Fwd: EVLN: GM's 1st 200mi EV will launch as a 
> driverless (autonomous) Lyft platform
> 
> >Hi Paul,
> >No problem - you are free to disagree.
> >I predict that within 10 years nobody wants to deal with all those 
> >distracted drivers who are trying to drive while also staying in 
> >contact with their family, answering customers and colleagues and 
> >keeping their Facebook status updated. (Almost) everyone will gladly 
> >give the challenges of navigating the road to the self-driving car in 
> >the same way that you hire a driver today to bring you without the 
> >stress and fatigue of driving yourself.
> >Indeed, there will be accidents and fatalities. But face it - today 
> >there are plenty of those as well without the machines, simply because 
> >humans take a risk. Yesterday I almost crashed because someone decided 
> >that they should try to cross the street coming from behind a van 
> >blocking the view of oncoming traffic.
> >
> >Blinded by glaring sunlight? Indeed a cause of many crashes today. 
> >Totally preventable with good sensors. Radar is not bothered by 
> >sunlight.
> >
> >I think Tesla and others are onto something good when they see that 
> >long distance transportation and taxi services are where a lot of money 
> >can be found, though I suspect that a long-distance truck will still 
> >have one human on board (compared to two today, where they drive 
> >alternatingly today to keep the vehicle on the road as much as 
> >possible). In future the truck will drive itself while lumbering along 
> >on the freeway while the human sleeps/rests. At source and destination 
> >as well as at (recharge) stops, the human will take over and drive the 
> >truck and do all that is necessary to load/unload.
> >
> >But hey, I have been wrong before so, as always: time will tell.
> >
> >The fact that many dozens of Google self-driving cars are already on 
> >the road and without much problems, tells me which direction we are 
> >headed.
> >
> >Cor van de Water
> >Chief Scientist
> >Proxim Wireless
> >
> >office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
> >XoIP  +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
> >
> >http://www.proxim.com
> >
> >This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential 
> >and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you 
> >received this message in error, please delete it and 

Re: [EVDL] Conversion planning

[damon henry via EV]

> 
> I like this Datsun. The DC motor is salvaged from a forklift and rebuilt by 
> the owners themselves with help from a pro, Jim Husted.
> 
> http://www.evalbum.com/1524
> 
Thanks,
It's been sitting in the driveway for a couple of years waiting for the day I 
can add lithium to it.  Everything on it still works fine it's just not worth 
it to me to keep it insured with the use I am getting from my old NiCads.  In 
the meantime I have upgraded my motorcycle to lithium 
http://www.evalbum.com/497 and could not be happier.  Can't wait to get some in 
my truck some day and start driving it again.
Damon 
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[EVDL] FW: EVLN: Prof. Clare Grey defending her LiO2 (fluffycarbon) battery paper

[damon henry via EV]

John Wayland will soon have such a car.  You can read some of the details here, 
but as you would guess he also has a lot of very special batteries to try and 
push the 400 mile limit
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/blog/?p=486"Fast forward to now… I’ve owned the 
Insight since I bought it new in2000 (ser. # 904), I have this new condition 
EV1 motor/transaxle thatescaped the crusher – special thanks to Otmar Ebenhoech 
for his friend’s‘insight’ to source it over a GM parts counter before they were 
all gone, with generous sponsorship from Dow Kokam I also have 258, 75 ahr 
LiPol cells, and I now have an inverter… no more excuses! My wife had accused 
me of being nuts for wanting to take apart our like-new car that we paid 
$21,000 for in 2000, while at the same time – as she always did, challenged me 
to follow my dream."
Looking at this project you can see what kind of engineering goes into making a 
400 mile per charge EV.
This blog post is several years old, but the project is once again being worked 
on.  The death of his wife Cheryl who many old timers on this list remember 
fondly set him back a solid 3 years.
thanksDamon

> Date: Thu, 12 May 2016 23:56:21 -0700
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Prof. Clare Grey defending her LiO2 (fluffycarbon)  
> battery paper
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
> 
> To get a 400 mile range in an EV, which typically gets at least 4 miles
> per kWh, you need 100kWh pack.
> If you empty this pack completely then you would typically charge it
> overnight at home, or a kind of Supercharger if you needed to continue
> your trip instantly, Tesla is already charging 90kWh packs and rumor has
> it that their next evolution of pack improvements will push it to
> 100kWh.
> Overnight (8 hours) of charging only requires double the standard Level
> 2 power: you need 12 kW instead of 6.
> This means only 50 Amps at 240 Volts, no problem on a typical home
> service of 200 Amps.
> 
> Cor van de Water 
> Chief Scientist 
> Proxim Wireless 
>   
> office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water 
> XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info 
> 
> http://www.proxim.com
> 
> This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and
> proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received
> this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any
> unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of
> this message is prohibited.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Paul Dove via
> EV
> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2016 4:22 AM
> To: spk...@gmail.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Prof. Clare Grey defending her LiO2
> (fluffycarbon) battery paper
> 
> Even if she succeeds. There is still the charging issue. Where would you
> get enough power to charge a 400 mile range vehicle in a timely manner?
> You would need 150kw battery or so. You can't get that kind of power out
> of the grid and how often would you need to drive 400 miles. 
> 
> Trying to solve a problem we don't have. 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> > On May 12, 2016, at 6:10 AM, Sean Korb via EV 
> wrote:
> > 
> > This is the sort of thing where I should study the paper, read the
> dissents
> > and then give my completely unscientific opinion as if it were fact.
> I
> > don't even play a scientist on TV :)
> > 
> > It sounds s bit like an Aluminum/Air battery which *is* lightweight
> and
> > powerful... and very difficult to recharge short of sending it back to
> the
> > bauxite mine.  Lithium exposed to air is highly reactive... and
> exposed to
> > about anything else like water it is explosive!  (Well they H2 gas
> given
> > off in the reaction is explosive).  If she can control that in any
> way,
> > that's phenomenal even if all we get is a disposable battery.  Just
> sitting
> > on the sidelines, this kind of research is fascinating!
> > 
> > sean
> > 
> >> On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 6:23 AM, brucedp5 via EV 
> wrote:
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >>
> http://qz.com/678040/doubts-have-been-raised-about-a-cambridge-professor
> s-acclaimed-battery-breakthrough/
> >> Doubts have been raised about a Cambridge professor's acclaimed
> battery
> >> breakthrough
> >> May 07, 2016  Steve LeVine
> >> 
> >> [image
> >> 
> >>
> https://qzprod.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/battery-e1462568109627.jpg?qu
> ality=80=all=768
> >> (Reuters/Regis Duvignau)
> >> ]
> >> 
> >> Scientists have disputed a claimed breakthrough in one of the most
> >> promising
> >> fields of advanced battery research, casting fresh doubt on efforts
> to
> >> leapfrog current lithium-ion technology.
> >> 
> >> The questions have been raised about an advance announced by Clare
> Grey, a
> >> prominent battery researcher at Cambridge University, who created a
> stir in
> >> October with a paper published [
> >> 

Re: [EVDL] Camping in the Model X SUV?

[damon henry via EV]

Of course, for the price you could easily buy yourself a nice little cabin on a 
parcel of wilderness and camp in real comfort any time you like :)
Damon

> Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 16:53:03 -0400
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: [EVDL] Camping in the Model X SUV?
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
> 
> http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1103172_2016-tesla-model-x-electric-suv-first-drive-by-model-s-owner
> 
> 
> 
> Considering the Model X test drive (above) where the author said he could
> STAND UP in the back seat with the Gull Wing door open, the first thing I
> would explore is how easy it is to remove some of the seats, and then have
> a CAMPING canvas door and portico attached to one Gull wing door, to make
> the ultimate in overnight camping SUV.
> 
> 
> 
> Since you can stand there while changing , etc...  It would beat the
> gyrations I have to do when sleeping in my Prius-Inn or Prius-Hotel!
> 
> (50-70% down this page: http://aprs.org/APRS-SPHEV.html )
> 
> 
> 
> Bob
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC Quick-Charging Matter

[damon henry via EV]

We are so far away from this ever really being an issue, and the chance that it 
ever will be still seems quite remote.  Even with the latest batch of OEM EV's 
there is no guarantee that EV's are going to stick.  There is still very little 
demand for them, and no apparent groundswell building...
damon

> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 15:44:14 -0400
> To: pe...@kotatko.com; ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC 
> Quick-Charging Matter
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
> 
> It is unsustainable to expect that people without EV charging at home or
> at work (both can be 115 volt) will be happy to leave their cars for hours
> every day somewhewre else every single day.  Or that there will ever be
> enough such public chargers.
> 
> No, the only practical answer remains (for the dail commuter), to provide
> provisions for people to plug in while parked at home.  Even if this means
> on-street parking having outlets.
> 
> Sure, public charging will always be needed, but I cannot image anyone
> buying an EV with the idea of going somewhere else every single day to
> charge and waiting till complete...
> 
> bob
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via
> EV
> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 12:58 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC
> Quick-Charging Matter
> 
> Don't forget that there is a huge percentage, 30% to 50% depending on how
> you measure, who don't have consistent access to dedicated off
> street charging.   During the early adopter stage, this doesn't matter.
> For the next wave of EV owners it will.  People who can't charge at home
> will need to either charge at a destination - work, shopping - or while
> they wait at some sort of refuling station.  Charge time will matter - a
> lot.
> 
> Peri
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
> To: "Ben Goren" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> ; "brucedp5" 
> Sent: 19-Oct-15 9:43:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC
> Quick-Charging Matter
> 
> >What they actually don't understand is that EV's are refuled while
> >parked and not-in-use in the ultimate of convenience.
> >
> >Whereas they are so used to gas cars that must be refuled somewhere
> >else, while they ARE-USING the car.  A big inconvenience.
> >
> >-Original Message-
> >From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via
> >EV
> >Sent: Monday, October 19, 2015 12:40 PM
> >To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> >Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Buying An Electric Car: Why Charging Rate, DC
> >Quick-Charging Matter
> >
> >On Oct 19, 2015, at 3:24 AM, brucedp5 via EV  wrote:
> >
> >>  In broad strokes, if you're confident that you can charge your car
> >> at  home every night--or at work every day--then recharge rate may
> >> not be  quite so important.
> >
> >They're handwaving away the most important point.
> >
> >People new to EVs are paranoid about the time it takes to recharge.
> >People
> >who've lived with an EV for a few weeks wonder what all the fuss is
> >about.
> >My parents went through this...Dad did a lot of searching for a cheap
> >220
> >charger for their new-to-them Leaf. Now, while they wouldn't turn one
> >down if you offered them one for free, they have no interest in
> >spending money on one.
> >
> >I think a lot of people unfamiliar with EVs get hung up on the time to
> >charge the battery from empty, when the important metric is the time to
> >charge the battery after a day's typical usage.
> >
> >If you figure 3 miles per kWh for a typical EV, you'll recharge at
> >about
> >10 MPH from a standard 110 circuit. Doesn't sound like much...but
> >that's
> >80 miles after 8 hours, and most of us are either asleep that long or,
> >at least, spend that much time asleep plus showering and eating and the
> >like.
> >In practice, most people would have no trouble plugging in for 10 or 12
> >hours a day at home, giving 100 - 120 miles.
> >
> >And, save for road trips, how many people even put 80 miles on the road
> >in a given day? And on the rare days when that happens...how often does
> >it happen day after day?
> >
> >Let's say you've got a 200-mile range EV, as is promised for the next
> >generation of cars. Start the day with a full charge. Drive 100 miles
> >that single day and end the day with 100 miles. Plug in only for 8
> >hours, start the next day with "only" 180 miles. You could keep that
> >pattern up for over a week before you'd start to have legitimate reason
> >for range anxiety. Give the car a couple days of 12-hour charges on
> >your
> >(presumed)
> >weekend when you're only putting a few dozen miles per day on the car,
> >and you're all caught back up again. And I think it's safe to 

Re: [EVDL] Employer EVSE installations vs. Free Lunch?

[damon henry via EV]

There are many different scenarios.  I rode my electric motorcycle to work all 
summer long.  I drove right into the warehouse past all the warehouse workers 
and plugged into a normal 120v outlet that my boss said would be fine for me to 
use.  Everyone in the company thinks the bike is cool and no one complains 
about the free electricity my boss is willing to give me.
damon
> 
> > On Oct 15, 2015, at 1:59 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  
> > wrote:
> > 
> > The time for free electricity for EV's should be past now.  At this point,
> > the benefits to EV's are so overwhelming (where there is a good match to
> > individual need) that free electricity only *detracts* from EV adoption by
> > creating EV animosity.
> > 
> > I'd far rather pay my employer $15/month and be ALLOWED to plug in to the
> > many 120v outlets that exist than to try to be a pain in the ass trying to
> > get a freebee.
> > 
> > If we bought an EV, we can afford the electricity.  Lets not shoot
> > ourselves in the foot by expecting or even asking for free juice when it
> > only brings up all kinds of burdensome issues (animosity, taxes, greed)...
> > 
> > And all that FREE electricity only creates FRICTION AND ANIMOSITY among EV
> > drivers when those that NEED a charge are blocked by those greedy people
> > trying to snitch a few cents of extra freebee who don't really need it.
> > 
> > Free EV charging HAS GOT TO GO!
> > It is UNSUSTAINABLE!
> > 
> > Thanks
> > Bob, WB4aPR
> > ___
> > UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
> > http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org
> > Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/
> > Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> > 
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] Gas vs Electric Lawn Mower - Elec wins

[damon henry via EV]

Yes, but no one cares about kw of energy in gasoline.  They care about how many 
gallons or liters they need and how much it costs.  This is like saying that 
the gasoline weighs more than  electricity.  Most people see it as totally 
irrelevant. 
damon

To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:19:17 -0700
Subject: [EVDL] Gas vs Electric Lawn Mower - Elec wins
From: ev@lists.evdl.org

I don’t know how many of you look at Robert Llewellyn's Fully Charged
  videos, but here is one that you shouldn’t miss -
 
https://www.facebook.com/FullyChargedShow/videos/867139510038966/
 
It is just phenomenal. Basically the guy takes 2 mowers, elec and gas, measures
the equivalent kw of energy of the battery pack and puts it into the gas mower
and runs them. The results blew me away. The petrol (Robert is English) lasts
about 7 ½ minutes, the elec lasts 50 min and 26 secs… efficiency counts.
 
I hope that somebody has the guts to do this with an electric vehicle and
gas/diesel vehicle…
 
Rush Dougherty
www.TucsonEV.com
 
 
 
 

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Re: [EVDL] Gas vs Electric Lawn Mower - Elec wins

[damon henry via EV]

Good point :)  What are you driving to work? I put over 1000 miles on my 
motorcycle this summer at a penny a mile.  That is much more cost effective 
than the ICE SUV I drove in today.
damon

Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 18:04:30 +
From: dov...@bellsouth.net
To: damonhe...@hotmail.com; ev@lists.evdl.org; ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Gas vs Electric Lawn Mower - Elec wins

No, they don't care about that either since it cost me 40 cents a day to go to 
work and it costs my wife 5 or 6 bucks depending on the price of gas. 

It's just new technology and most people are afraid of change. However, it will 
eventually be realized by all.

From: damon henry via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
 To: EV List <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
 Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 12:24 PM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Gas vs Electric Lawn Mower - Elec wins
   
Yes, but no one cares about kw of energy in gasoline.  They care about how many 
gallons or liters they need and how much it costs.  This is like saying that 
the gasoline weighs more than  electricity.  Most people see it as totally 
irrelevant. damonTo: e...@lists.evdl.orgDate: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 10:19:17 
-0700Subject: [EVDL] Gas vs Electric Lawn Mower - Elec winsFrom: 
e...@lists.evdl.orgi don’t know how many of you look at Robert Llewellyn's 
Fully 
Charged<https://www.facebook.com/search/str/robert%20llewellyn's%20fully%20charged/keywords_top>
  videos, but here is one that you shouldn’t miss - 
https://www.facebook.com/FullyChargedShow/videos/867139510038966/ It is just 
phenomenal. Basically the guy takes 2 mowers, elec and gas, measuresthe 
equivalent kw of energy of the battery pack and puts it into the gas mowerand 
runs them. The results blew me away. The petrol (Robert is English) lastsabout 
7 ½ minutes, the elec lasts 50 min and 26 secs… efficiency counts. I hope that 
somebody has the guts to do this with an electric vehicle andgas/diesel 
vehicle… Rush Doughertywww.TucsonEV.com
___UNSUBSCRIBE: 
http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orgRead
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NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)   
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Re: [EVDL] Gas vs Electric Lawn Mower - Elec wins

[damon henry via EV]

Cool.  I had a chance to drive Jay Donnaway's a couple of years ago and really 
enjoyed it.  It is everything I would want in an EV, but a little to unusual 
looking for the wife to ever allow :)  Plus, I already have two DIY Evs, my 
1974 Suzuki GT250 and my 1970 Datsun Truck.  I don't know that I will ever be 
able to buy an OEM EV as long as I have those, and I'm not ready to part with 
either just yet.
damon

> Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 17:55:41 -0500
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Gas vs Electric Lawn Mower - Elec wins
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
> 
> I drive an i-MiEV
> 
> 
> Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone Original message 
> ----From: damon henry via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org> Date: 10/12/2015  1:42 
> PM  (GMT-06:00) To: EV List <ev@lists.evdl.org> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Gas vs 
> Electric Lawn Mower - Elec wins 
> Good point :)  What are you driving to work? I put over 1000 miles on my 
> motorcycle this summer at a penny a mile.  That is much more cost effective 
> than the ICE SUV I drove in today.
> damon
> 
> Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 18:04:30 +
> From: dov...@bellsouth.net
> To: damonhe...@hotmail.com; ev@lists.evdl.org; ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Gas vs Electric Lawn Mower - Elec wins
> 
> No, they don't care about that either since it cost me 40 cents a day to go 
> to work and it costs my wife 5 or 6 bucks depending on the price of gas. 
> 
> It's just new technology and most people are afraid of change. However, it 
> will eventually be realized by all.
> 
> From: damon henry via EV <ev@lists.evdl.org>
>  To: EV List <ev@lists.evdl.org> 
>  Sent: Monday, October 12, 2015 12:24 PM
>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Gas vs Electric Lawn Mower - Elec wins
>
> Yes, but no one cares about kw of energy in gasoline.  They care about how 
> many gallons or liters they need and how much it costs.  This is like saying 
> that the gasoline weighs more than  electricity.  Most people see it as 
> totally irrelevant. damonTo: e...@lists.evdl.orgDate: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 
> 10:19:17 -0700Subject: [EVDL] Gas vs Electric Lawn Mower - Elec winsFrom: 
> e...@lists.evdl.orgi don’t know how many of you look at Robert Llewellyn's 
> Fully 
> Charged<https://www.facebook.com/search/str/robert%20llewellyn's%20fully%20charged/keywords_top>
>   videos, but here is one that you shouldn’t miss - 
> https://www.facebook.com/FullyChargedShow/videos/867139510038966/ It is just 
> phenomenal. Basically the guy takes 2 mowers, elec and gas, measuresthe 
> equivalent kw of energy of the battery pack and puts it into the gas mowerand 
> runs them. The results blew me away. The petrol (Robert is English) 
> lastsabout 7 ½ minutes, the elec lasts 50 min and 26 secs… efficiency counts. 
> I hope that somebody has the guts to do this with an electric vehicle 
> andgas/diesel vehicle… Rush Doughertywww.TucsonEV.com
> ___UNSUBSCRIBE: 
> http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usubhttp://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.orgRead
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> NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)   
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-- n

Re: [EVDL] hub motor cooling ac motor

[damon henry via EV]

You are assuming that just because you cannot touch it the temperature is a 
problem.  That is not necessarily true.  Do you have any specs that specify 
acceptable operating temperatures?
damon

> Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2015 18:41:10 -0400
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Subject: [EVDL] hub motor cooling ac motor
> From: ev@lists.evdl.org
> 
>  When hill climbing roads at 25 mph and 40 amps, which it draws same amps
> at 40 mph on the flat .  on my 3 kw wheel, it starts heating up to the
> point of be not touchable . I thought of drilling a very small hole 1/8
> inch near the axle and fill the inside maybe 25% . but don't know what
> kind of oil that'd not hurt wrirng etc. or would a high wattage motor
> help ?
> 
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Re: [EVDL] 48V Energy Meter (Lead-Acid)...

[damon henry via EV]

Hi Cor,
I have been around and using E-meters for many years now and this is the first 
time I have ever heard of using a zener diode as a method to create an isolated 
power supply for one.  Is it really that simple?  If so I might switch to this 
on my motorcycle (48v).  I currently have a small 12 volt battery that I use 
just for running my meter, which is a pretty simple setup, but does require me 
to charge the battery once a week, and/or disconnect the battery if I leave the 
motorcycle unused for a long stretch.
If I understand this method I would simply connect the emeter power through a 
zener diode off my traction pack and that would provide both the required 
isolation and enough of a voltage drop to keep from burning the meter out.  
That sounds easy :) Do you just wire the zener into one of the power leads from 
the traction pack to the emeter?  Does it matter whether it is on the positive 
or negative lead?  Are there other components that could/should be added like a 
fuse or current limiting resistor?
thanksDamon

 Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 23:15:24 -0700
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] 48V Energy Meter (Lead-Acid)...
 From: ev@lists.evdl.org
 
 The older (pre-decessor or just re-packaged?) Link 10 meter from Xantrex
 was also limited to 35V (it is the 7800-series linear voltage regulator max 
 input)
 so a 1:10 pre-scaler could be used to measure higher voltage, while powering 
 the
 unit from an isolated power supply between 12-35V although if it is just 48V 
 as in your case,
 the prescaler is needed but the power supply can simply be a zener diode, 
 dropping the
 48V (max charge voltage for example 60V so you would need a 25V or next 
 higher zener)
 
 If I am not mistaken, the Link 10 had a software feature to shift the decimal 
 dot a place
 so you could take the 10:1 pre-scaler into account in Voltage and energy 
 measurements.
 Not sure if this unit has that same feature - Lee might know as he has made a
 companion board for the Link 10.
 
 Regards,
 
 Cor van de Water
 Chief Scientist
 Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
 Email: cwa...@proxim.comPrivate: http://www.cvandewater.info
 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP: +31877841130
 Tel: +1 408 383 7626Tel: +91 (040)23117400 x203
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: EV on behalf of Ing. Marco Gaxiola via EV
 Sent: Fri 7/24/2015 11:08 AM
 To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
 Subject: [EVDL] 48V Energy Meter (Lead-Acid)...
  
 
   I'm looking for an energy meter for a lead-acid 48V (Nominal) bank.  A 
 friend recommended me this one from Xantrex:
 
 http://www.xantrex.com/power-products/power-accessories/linkpro-battery-monitor.aspx
 
 that looks great and ideal for my Project. But unfortunately maximum reading 
 voltage is up to 35Vdc. (although using a pre-scaler in the input voltage and 
 a 48V to 12V DC-DC power supply; the firmware parameters in the programming 
 options of the device, according to the datasheet; are only up to 35Volts 
 range)
 
   if someone does know of a similar product solution that could be 
 recommended, please advice.  
 
   
   (Application: It's intended to be used on an Electric Polaris Vehicle. 
 I'm upgrading the battery pack, extra charger and adding some solar panels in 
 order to improve range, charge time and ability to slowly self-recharge while 
 in the sun. To be used on a Ranch.) 
 
 
 Ing. Marco Gaxiola
 CEO/Director
 Juarez #18, Col. Bachoco
 Tel: +52(662)301.1070
 Skype: info.energyev
 www.energyev.com 
 
 
 
 
 ---
 El software de antivirus Avast ha analizado este correo electrónico en busca 
 de virus.
 https://www.avast.com/antivirus
 
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Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery

[damon henry via EV]

Add me to the list of people who was a happy owner until I burned it up as 
well.  I would not hesitate to buy another if I have a need.  I actually did 
some pretty heavy discharge testing with mine, but kept in on ice to help with 
the cooling.  I burned mine up when i forgot about the max voltage level and 
exposed it to too high of voltage.  
damon

 Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2015 12:47:10 -0400
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Bicycle battery
 From: ev@lists.evdl.org
 
 From: EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org
 I have one of those Watts Up meters.  It works nicely, within its 
 limitations. It's US made (!), and appears to be really well built. I use it 
 a fair bit.
 
 However, the specs claim a current capacity of 50 amps continuous and 100 
 amps peak.  I think that's wildly optimistic.  The shunt is built in, and 
 you're right, the lead wires are only #14. I wouldn't use it at over 10-15 
 amps continuous.  Even at 15a, I keep a fan blowing on it.
 
 I have one as well. I agree with David; it's well made and works as 
 advertised. But indeed, it failed while continuously charging a battery at 
 about 20-25 amps. An autopsy revealed that it burned open the tiny shunt, 
 which then applied full voltage across the current sensing circuit, and blew 
 out the electronics as well.
 
 
 --
 Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
 --
 Lee A. Hart http://www.sunrise-ev.com/controllers.htm now includes the GE EV-1
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Re: [EVDL] leaf 60ah vs calb 60ah cells

[damon henry via EV]

I was pondering the same question earlier this year when I decided to dip my 
toe in the water on lithium by purchasing a pack for my motorcycle.  I wanted 
to get some hands on experience before buying a suitable pack for my Datsun 
Truck.  I emailed a local EV enthusiast, Don Blazer, who has a fleet of 
electric vehicles for his business and buys and uses many Calb cells.  He also 
offers them to other EV enthusiasts at the best price you are likely to find.  
He sent me this response which swayed my decision to by the Calb cells.  So far 
I could not be happier with them, and at this point I am planning to put Calb 
cells in my truck as well when I have the funds available.  I am very impressed 
with them and see no reason to experiment with used cells with an unknown 
history.  
Hello Damon I too was tempted by the Volt and Leaf batteries. However after 
looking at theircycle life new to new their actually more expensive. Used, 
unless very inexpensive,would also not be a good deal. The OEMs only care about 
80,000 miles and a highloss of capacity during use is not an issue. The Leaf 
for example loses one barby 20,000 and a second by 40,000. Each bar is about 6 
miles of range. If your onthe OEVA list some just posted they lost a second bar 
with 30 something thousand. The Volt does not really have to depend on the 
pack. Under high loads or high speedsthe generator kicks in. As well as in a 
lower SOC to keep the pack from failing earlyand being covered on warranty. 
Most people don't understand the OEMs only care about paying the least 
amountpossible and it just has to not be their expense to fix. A few years ago 
I was fairly excited that the OEMs were going to make EVs.Being in the 
collision business I knew there would be lots of batteries for the taking.
 So I was expecting this to be a good deal for all us who could use them. Its 
justdisappointing the prices of the used packs are way higher then they should 
be.They appear to be a good deal until you start doing the math. Of course it 
all depends on how much you plan to use them. If your only going todrive very 
little, then cycle life is less a factor.
 Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2015 13:56:01 +0200
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] leaf 60ah  vs  calb 60ah cells
 From: ev@lists.evdl.org
 
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1
 
 
 
 On 06/29/2015 09:08 AM, Matt Lacey via EV wrote:
 
  For the case of like a 60 volts to 125 volts for a traction pack
  for like a scooter.. why do some choose leaf cells ? seems like
  you have to get a more specialised/ costly BMS like orion. I've
  seen youtube about Vectrix conversions using both. leaf cells are
  american  made ? do they have more cycles or power density ?
 
 I decided to use Nissan Leaf modules for my 120 volt S-10 truck for
 the following reasons:
 
  -Low cost availability of used cells - I can purchase a totaled
 Nissan Leaf and (with some elbow grease) remove a pack of used cells
 that are in very good condition for significantly less than I can
 purchase new prismatic cells.
 
 *This was the biggest deciding factor...I simply couldn't afford to
 spend enough to buy a 24 kWh pack without buying it used.*
 
  -Possibly higher quality - Because I know that Nissan has handled the
 quality control and bulk purchasing for me, I am guaranteed a certain
 (automobile engineering) level of quality and regularity between modules.
 
  -Possibly longer life (for similar reasons to above...) By getting
 modules from a 2013 battery I think I am getting the benefits of
 Nissan's early experimentation.
 
  -Nice format - I like the general format and packaging of the modules.
 
  -Continued availability - If I need to replace a module, or even the
 whole pack, I expect that there will continue to be easy availability
 of replacement modules in the same form factor, and possibly with even
 better capacity in the future due to the large number of Nissan Leaf's
 on the road today.
 
 For my high amperage/relatively lower voltage (small pickup truck)
 application the 60 AH capacity is the only real downside. I'd prefer
 180-200 Ah modules, so I am having to put them in parallel sets of 3.
 But for a scooter or car with a high voltage controller/motor, you can
 just put them in series like Nissan does.
 
 I'm using MiniBMS, which is about as cheap as you can get, so the BMS
 wasn't a big issue for me.
 
 Jay
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 =fz3U
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Re: [EVDL] Voltage sensing shut off switch

[damon henry via EV]

The Wemo is a work in progress, but I think most of the negative reviews have 
or can be addressed with firmware updates.  The one I bought off the shelf 
needed to be updated before I had the count down timer functionality I was 
after.  Having an internet connected device does have advantages including the 
ability to easily upgrade.  
I believe I checked the ratings before I bought it and found it rated at 15 
amps.  I don't remember specifically where I found that, but I would not have 
bought it otherwise.
damon

 Date: Thu, 25 Jun 2015 11:29:12 -0500
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Voltage sensing shut off switch
 From: ev@lists.evdl.org
 
 damon henry via EV wrote:
  Thanks Lee, This is just the type of solution I was hoping to find.
 
 You're welcome. Glad to help. :-)
 
  My 12 hour spring wound timer died, and they did not have another one
  at Home Depot so I bought one of these instead.
  http://www.homedepot.com/p/Belkin-WeMo-Switch-F7C027fc/203536127
 
 Cheap, and looks pretty versatile. But the reviews were not encouraging. 
 Seems like people have trouble with its reliability. I also couldn't 
 find ANY ratings for the device. Given its small size, I would expect 
 the switching device inside is not good for high current. Everything in 
 their advertising talks about lights and other low-power loads. Could be 
 problems with something you want to be SURE will turn off your charger.
 
 Let us know how it works out!
 -- 
 If we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research, would it?
   -- Albert Einstein
 --
 Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Voltage sensing shut off switch

[damon henry via EV]

Thanks Lee,
This is just the type of solution I was hoping to find.  I have no plans to add 
a BMS to my calb cells on my motorcycle.  I can see that this presents the most 
danger for me during charging.  I currently charge on a timer, so that even if 
I forget I'm charging the timer saves me, but I notice that when these cells 
get full they are done in a hurry.  So after watching the end of charge 
multiple times I have decided that there is a very safe and noticeable pack 
voltage that indicates there really is no reason to keep charging.  In my case 
it is right at about 54.5 volts.  The pack will charge at 54 volts for quite a 
while, then slowly climb to around 54.5 volts.  After that, cells start taking 
off on in a hurry.  With my emeter, it is pretty easy to know how long to set 
the timer and how many amps to set the charger at to get a nice refill, but the 
voltage shutoff is perfect for any small errors in judgement I might make.  I 
plan on fitting this all into a nice small package th
 at I can take with me when I want so I never have to worry about getting 
distracted.
My 12 hour spring wound timer died, and they did not have another one at Home 
Depot so I bought one of these instead. 
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Belkin-WeMo-Switch-F7C027fc/203536127  I actually 
think it is pretty handy.  If I have one of those Oh no did I leave my charger 
on moments I can shut it off remotely from anywhere with my cell phone.  It 
also has a built in countdown timer that I use, although it is a lot more work 
to open an app on my phone and go through a settings menu to set the timer than 
turning a single knob :)  i ended up just setting my timer for 90 minutes, then 
I adjust my current on my charger.  For charging I have my longtime favorite 
Shumacher SE-1072 plugged into one of those cheap Chinese 15 amp variacs.  I 
use the variac for fine control of the charging current.   For the kit I am 
putting together I will get another 12 hour spring wound count down timer.  
That along with the GFCI plug and voltage sensing circuit should make a nice 
package.
damon

 Date: Wed, 24 Jun 2015 10:56:59 -0500
 From: leeah...@earthlink.net
 To: damonhe...@hotmail.com; ev@lists.evdl.org
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Voltage sensing shut off switch
 
 damon henry via EV wrote:
  Has anyone ever made a circuit to shut off a switch once a
  predetermined voltage limit has been hit while charging.  I would
  love to work on something small that is easy to carry.  It would plug
  directly into a standard Nema 15 120 volt 15 amp receptacle and have
  it's own Nema 15 receptacle for a charger to plug into.  It would
  have a voltage sensing input I could use to monitor my pack voltage
  and once a predetermined voltage limit was hit, the circuit would
  open and latch so that the charger stopped charging until everything
  was manually reset.  I'm sure there are a million simple ways to get
  this done.
 
 Yes; this is indeed an easy problem to solve. :-)
 
 Charge your EV with an extension cord with a built-in GFCI (Ground Fault 
 Circuit Interrupter). Or, put a GFCI in an outlet box with a male plug 
 on the back and the female socket (that's part of the GFCI) on the front.
 
 The circuit that senses pack voltage will generate a ground fault, which 
 orders the GFCI to turn off. It looks like this (here comes some bad old 
 ASCII art -- view it with a fixed-width font like Courier):
 
   pack+___. . . /\/\___ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
   . . . . \/\/\/ | . R2. . | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
   . R1 1K . ^ . .| . 1K. ._|_/ D1 one or more zener diodes that
   . trimpot ||. . . .//_\ . . add up to a few volts less your
   . to adjust voltage . . .|. . . desired turn-off voltage
   . where it switches . . .|_ . . . . . . .
   . . . . . . . . . . . . . _|. K1 a small relay with a
   . . . . . . . . . . . . . _|. 5-12vdc, 10-20ma coil. It
   . . . . . . . . . . . . . _|. will pull in at about 2-5vdc.
   pack-|
 
   AC hot_/\/\||AC ground
   . . . . . . R3 . . ||
   . . . . . . 10K. . K1's normally-open contact
 
 The dots are just there to keep smart-alec email programs from replacing 
 multiple spaces with a single space. If you can't figure out how to view 
 anything with a fixed-width font, the circuit is very simple. It's a 
 trimpot R1, a fixed resistor R2, a zener D1, and a relay coil K1 all in 
 series. When the pack reaches the desired shut-off voltage, the zener 
 conducts, current flows in the relay coil, and it pulls in. The 
 normally-open contact of K1 closes, connecting R3 from AC hot to ground. 
 This creates a ground fault, and the GFCI turns off!
 
 -- 
 The greatest pleasure in life is to create something that wasn't
 there before. -- Roy Spence
 --
 Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
  
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[EVDL] Lee Hart Zener Regulator for Calb cells

[damon henry via EV]

Hi,
I am wondering if anyone has adapted Lee Hart's Zener regulators for lithium 
cell use.  I don't think the voltage of one cell is high enough to use this 
type of device on, but I think proper values can be found to regulate two cells 
in series.  I would love to experiment with some of these and would like full 
bypass at 6.8 volts.  I believe the 12 volt model can be tweaked by picking 
appropriate replacement Zener diodes, but I don't do a lot of this type of 
design, so I am not familiar with what is available or where to source the 
parts.  Any help would be appreciated.
thanks Damon
Here is a link to Lee's design.http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm#zenerlamp  
  
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Re: [EVDL] Lee Hart Zener Regulator for Calb cells

[damon henry via EV]

Thanks Cor, for the information.  I thought I would like to play with these, 
but maybe not due to some of the concerns you bring up.
I currently have 16 60ahr calb cells I am learning with on my motorcycle with 
no BMS.  The investment in this small of pack  is not huge and hands on 
learning is worthwhile, so I don't mind being my own BMS in this case.  I would 
eventually like to put Calb cells in my truck.  I will likely install a BMS in 
my truck as that will be a larger investment and more cells to try and keep 
track of manually.  Right now I am leaning towards Orion.  So the Zener 
balancers were just going to be for experimenting and observation.
I understand the risks of not installing a BMS, but it is always interesting 
comparing that against the risk of having something permanently wired across 
your cells.
damon

 Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2015 11:18:42 -0700
 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Lee Hart Zener Regulator for Calb cells
 From: ev@lists.evdl.org
 
 Lee has discussed this in the past, it is likely in the archives.
 I see three main issues:
 - at lower voltage, the zener knee gets very soft so unless you use 
 additional electronics to amplify, the zener itself does not work very well 
 on a single cell as you already indicated, two cells might indeed be better 
 since around 6V the zeners have the best characteristics but that introduces 
 issues with imbalance between the two cells
 - Voltage differences while charging are very small with most types of 
 Lithium. 3.2V at rest but 3.5V is over-charging a LiFePO4 cell whereas a 
 flooded/AGM lead-acid battery can easily go from 12V to 15V and it does not 
 hurt them to be sitting at 15V while balancing for an hour.
 - leakage and failure: while zeners are supposed to go on at a certain 
 voltage, they will leak below that voltage so you are introducing extra 
 self-discharge which can very per cell with the properties of the zener, so 
 in a sense you are making the situation for Li-Ion worse. Also zeners can 
 fail (shorted typically) and mechanically fail and the Lithium cells will not 
 take well to being over-charged due to a failure
 
 Cor van de Water
 Chief Scientist
 Proxim Wireless
 
 office +1 408 383 7626Skype: cor_van_de_water
 XoIP   +31 87 784 1130private: cvandewater.info
 www.proxim.com
 
 
 This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and 
 proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation.  If you received this 
 message in error, please delete it and notify the sender.  Any unauthorized 
 use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is 
 prohibited.
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of damon henry via EV
 Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 10:37 AM
 To: EV List
 Subject: [EVDL] Lee Hart Zener Regulator for Calb cells
 
 Hi,
 I am wondering if anyone has adapted Lee Hart's Zener regulators for lithium 
 cell use.  I don't think the voltage of one cell is high enough to use this 
 type of device on, but I think proper values can be found to regulate two 
 cells in series.  I would love to experiment with some of these and would 
 like full bypass at 6.8 volts.  I believe the 12 volt model can be tweaked by 
 picking appropriate replacement Zener diodes, but I don't do a lot of this 
 type of design, so I am not familiar with what is available or where to 
 source the parts.  Any help would be appreciated.
 thanks Damon
 Here is a link to Lee's 
 design.http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm#zenerlamp
   
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[EVDL] FW: On the road again.

[damon henry via EV]

Thanks David...
for pointing out the forgetfulness factor.  Been there, done that.  There are a 
couple of fairly simple solutions to that particular problem.  First, a charger 
that is set at a low enough voltage to limit that danger.  So far it has been 
my experience with this pack that there is not enough of a voltage rise to set 
a dumb charger up for this function, but I am considering getting a smart 
charger that will do constant current to a specific voltage then shut off.  
Another easy solution is a mechanical timer.  I have an e-meter on the 
motorcycle so I know how much energy I have taken out.  That makes it pretty 
easy to set a timer as a fail-safe.  I think my e-meter may even have an alarm 
function that I could use to shut the charger off.
I thought the joke about the tarp was clever :)
Finally, as Cor pointed out, it is my motorcycle which has the 3.4kwh pack on 
it now.  Since I have not done lithium before I brought out the old test mule 
from under the tarp so that if I do learn from the school of hard knocks, as is 
often the case, I will be well educated before investing in a much more 
expensive lithium for my truck.  I don't believe I will do the lithium without 
a BMS, but that is a decision for some future time. 
I have two normal scenarios.  MWF  - round trip to the gym and back 10 miles - 
opportunity charge for an hour while I get ready for work then 8 miles to the 
office where I have the full day to charge if I like.  Then back home 8 miles.  
The other two days of the week I do not do the gym first, so overall this pack 
is getting very light duty.  In fact, I think the hardest thing for me to get 
used to is not fully charging it.  I'm so used to charging as much as I can 
whenever I can that it is a hard habit to break.  In this case though, why get 
close to the danger points?  Bad things usually happen to batteries when they 
are nearing full or empty.  Keeping them away from those danger zones makes a 
lot of sense.  The most stress I am likely to put on them will be if I go to 
visit my good friend John Wayland who lives 17 miles of mostly freeway from me. 
 It's no problem picking up a charge at his house before I head back home, 
though, so even that should not be too bad. 
damon

 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Date: Wed, 27 May 2015 15:52:20 -0400
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] On the road again.
 From: ev@lists.evdl.org
 
 On 27 May 2015 at 9:23, damon henry via EV wrote:
 
  After 5 years under the tarp, I put my EV motorcycle back on the road this
  week.  
 
 You must have been awfully bored, living under that tarp for all those 
 years! ;-)
 
  I purchased 16 Calb CA60ah cells which fit well in my existing battery
  boxes.  
 
 So if my math is right, ~3.4 kWh.  That's the equivalent of about four T-125 
 golf car batteries (useful capacity 900Wh each).  I'm thinking this is going 
 to be a short-range truck, and probably short-lived batteries from working 
 so hard.
 
  I do not have any BMS installed, but on such a small pack with good
  access it is easy to be my own BMS 
 
 As long as you don't get busy with something else and forget.  I know of a 
 guy around here who destroyed an entire set of rare and expensive Saft STM5-
 180 NiCd batteries when he forgot he was charging them.
 
 I wouldn't even do an E-bike lithium battery without a BMS.  But that's me, 
 and I know how forgetful I can be!
 
 David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
 EVDL Administrator
 
 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
 EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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 email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: “Is this thing on?” Mastering the art of driving an EV

[damon henry via EV]

I would imagine this is not just a misunderstanding of the laws of physics.  It 
probably also has to do with the guess-o-meter syndrome found in many EV's.  We 
all know how hard it is to know exactly how much range you have left, and the 
OEM ev's face the same challenge, yet they often display a definitive figure 
anyway.  Later when their algorithm kicks in and adjusts the figure up it can 
be confusing. 
damon

 To: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Date: Thu, 28 May 2015 14:02:42 -0400
 Subject: Re: [EVDL]   EVLN: “Is this thing on?” Mastering the art of driving 
 an EV
 From: ev@lists.evdl.org
 
 On 28 May 2015 at 2:23, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
 
  Smith said drivers can return from a short drive with more kilometres
  than they started with because they regenerate power from smart
  breaking. 
 
 Yeah, that would be breaking the rules of physics, unless it's mostly 
 downhill.
 
 What is the deal with a journalist (term used very loosely) who doesn't 
 know the difference between brake and break?  If I'd written something 
 like that, I'd be mortified to see it in print.
 
 David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
 EVDL Administrator
 
 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
 EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
 = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
 Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not 
 reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
 email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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[EVDL] On the road again.

[damon henry via EV]

After 5 years under the tarp, I put my EV motorcycle back on the road this 
week.  http://evalbum.com/preview.php?vid=497  It's been great fun and I am 
looking forward to a summer of riding.  Both my EV's have been in needing new 
batteries mode for a while now.  My truck http://evalbum.com/1524 is what I 
would really like to see going again, but the old Nicads just don't give me 
enough range anymore to make it worth the cost of keeping it on the road.  
After years of using just about every battery available and understanding the 
pro's and con's of all the different flavors, I am excited to finally be part 
of the lithium crowd.  I purchased 16 Calb CA60ah cells which fit well in my 
existing battery boxes.  These have been sitting on a shelf in a warehouse for 
about 18 months, but they seem to be waking up quite nicely and charging and 
discharging very evenly across the pack.   I do not have any BMS installed, but 
on such a small pack with good access it is easy to be my own BMS
 .   The back battery box I can easily pop the lid off and measure individual 
cells with my DVM.  The front box is packed in a much tighter space and has to 
be slid out to get the top off so I have individual test leads run out of the 
box to do the measuring.  To balance the cells I can charge in series until one 
of the cells reaches my top voltage level then individually bring all the other 
cells up with a hobby charger.  I don't expect to need to do much balancing 
however.  I also don't plan to fully charge or discharge the battery on a 
regular basis.  I plan on charging the cells up to the 3.4 - 3.45 range.  Most 
of my rides are in the 10 mile or less range so with a projected range of 
around 25 miles I'm usually not even dropping below 50% SOC, although I reserve 
the right to go further if I feel like it :)
BTW - I purchased my Calb cells through Don Blazer (theoldcars at aol.com) who 
I know shows up on the list once in a while to offer them to anyone interested. 
 He is local to me which made it convenient, but his pricing, knowledge, and 
integrity are all top notch.  He has a fleet of business vehicles that he uses 
them in for himself and offers them to others at a very good price.  So if you 
are in the market for some new lithium cells he is definitely worth reaching 
out to. 
damon
  
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Re: [EVDL] Exploding cell

[damon henry via EV]

Welcome to the club!  If you have never exploded a battery you have really 
missed out.  My charger was just about finished up around midnight one night a 
few summers back.  My truck was in my driveway out in front of my house.  I did 
not have my battery box vented well enough and something must have created a 
spark.  I think I shook the whole cul-de-sac with that one.  It was a very 
large boom.  It took me a few days to find the lid of my battery box.  It 
ripped off the hinges and blew up over my 2 story house and was hidden on the 
back side of my roof.  A few cells got ruined, but for the  most part I was 
just able to put everything back together and no real damage was done.  I'm 
glad I did not have my truck in the garage, and even now do not charge in the 
garage.  I figure if I ever make another mistake and explode things or catch 
something on fire, sitting in the back of my truck in my driveway is a fairly 
safe place for my battery to have problems.
damon

 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 08:54:29 -0400
 To: ev...@yahoogroups.com
 CC: ev@lists.evdl.org
 Subject: [EVDL] Exploding cell
 From: ev@lists.evdl.org
 
 Kaboom goes the cell!
 
 
 
 Was testing a battery module from my Prius on a battery analyzer.  The test
 plan begins with a several  minute no-load, then a 1C load for up to 1
 hour, then a several minute no-load, then a charge at 1C until peak voltage
 is detected.
 
 
 
 After 3 minutes, a cell exploded that could be heard all over the building.
 
 
 
 Best I can tell, there was a less than perfect connection to the battery
 terminal.  The initial 1C load only lasted 3 seconds (when it determined
 that the low-voltage had been reached).  So then, 10 minutes later it began
 a 1C charge (on what was a full battery).  And we all know that charging a
 full NimH battery will explode.
 
 
 
 Lesson learned.  1) Hang around and WAIT for  the initial discharge and
 WATCH that it is going correctly before leaving the test.
 
 2) Always assume a battery may explode and do testing where it will do no
 damage.
 
 
 
 Programmers:  When programming battery analyzers consider a bad connection
 on the DIScharge cycle that might give an erroneous indication of a
 discharged battery and fault the test.  Do not then continue to the charge
 cycle.
 
 
 
 Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Exploding cell

[damon henry via EV]

  To: ev@lists.evdl.org
  Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2014 11:55:38 -0700
  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Exploding cell
  From: ev@lists.evdl.org
 
 
  Welcome to the club! If you have never exploded a battery you have really 
  missed out. 
 
 It was a very large boom. It took me a few days to find the lid of my 
 battery box. It ripped off the hinges and blew up over my 2 story house and 
 was hidden on the back side of my roof. 
 
 
 :-) :-)  
 Wow..! 
 
 - Glad to hear that it went well, and that no heads or other important 
 body-parts was lost in the learningprocess...  
 
 So, lesson learned I guess. Hehe.
 
 
Yes, definitely lesson learned.  I knew for years that my battery box was not 
sufficiently ventilated and that hydrogen could be accumulating, but I never 
had a problem until that night.  So not only did I learn to be sure and 
ventilate my batteries while charging, I also learned that just because you 
have been doing something one way without problems for an extended period of 
time, does not mean that it is ok especially when you know there is potential 
for problems.  That is one of the values of a list like this.  We can learn 
from other peoples mistakes and not have to make them ourselves.  I am now much 
more careful to listen to others safety precautions and implement them before 
having problems of my own.
Just the other day I had a problem with a laptop battery.  It looked to me like 
it had just been run down too far and that my laptop would no longer charge it. 
 I know that internally it is just a few lithium cells in series, so I took it 
out to my garage and forced a charge through it with my hobby charger.  I know 
from others that lithium cells with problems can burn and that once they start 
burning they are next to impossible to put out.  Because of this, I placed the 
battery in an old frying pan I have in my garage so that if there was any 
damage that could cause a fire it would be contained and safe.  Fortunately 
there were no problems, and after 15 minutes of charging the voltage was high 
enough that my laptop was happy with it again and all is now well.  I knew to 
be cautious and what precautions I should take because others shared their 
mishaps with me.
damon 
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