Re: [EVDL] Chevy Bolt 2020 50 mile Range Drop in One Year

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

My son has a Bolt in Alaska and he has a short 3 mile commute but
has to go to max heater energy just to keep the windows
defogged.  I notice that too down here in Marland.

Humans put out a LOT of breath andhumidity and in the cold
that is all going to condense on the window.  So he uses pre-heat
and conditioning  Fully HALF of his battery energy goes to
defrosting and heat.

But with p re-heat, it does not affect range that much.

But is certainly a contributor to EV design

bob

Bob

On Mon, Dec 20, 2021 at 9:33 PM Mike Chancey via EV  wrote:
>
> I am told GM can't do over the air updates on the Bolt except to the
> infotainment system, and they have never bothered to do that.  Have you had
> any of the recalls performed yet?  My 2020 Bolt LT has not been made
> eligible for the recall battery replacement or even the interim software
> that limits full charge to 80%. If you are in an area with cooler weather
> you might want to check to see if you have the auto defrost function
> enabled. Some folks have seen a significant range hit when that activates. I
> have just been seeing the lost of miles per kilowatt hour that comes with
> cold weather and heater use.  I don't charge to 100% since the recall, just
> 90% per GMs recommendations so I can't compare my range, and there are too
> many other variables to make a comparison valid.
>
> Mike Chancey
> 2020 Chevy Bolt LT
> Kansas City, MO
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of mark hanson via EV
> Sent: Monday, December 20, 2021 7:55 PM
> To: 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' 
> Cc: mark hanson 
> Subject: [EVDL] Chevy Bolt 2020 50 mile Range Drop in One Year
>
> Hi Folks,
>
>
>
> My 260 mile $30K Chevy Bolt 2020 range dropped to 210 this year.  I normally
> charge to 80% for local trips (although that tidbit is missing from the
> manual/display unlike the Leaf & Tesla).  When I charge to 100% last month
> it was still about 260 miles, now this week it dropped to 210 miles.  I read
> that there were some battery issues at 100% (maybe because they didn't tell
> folks to charge to 80% for local use).  The battery was advertised as 64KWH
> although it's stamped underneath at 62KWH but now behaving like a 50KWH or
> 80% battery pack.  I wonder if the Mother Ship downloaded a 80% operation
> through OnStar that it has (but I didn't pay for)?
>
>
>
> Has anyone had this happened on their Bolt.  I was going to buy a cheaper
> 210 mile Leaf, but bought the Bolt for the longer range, oops - now the same
> as the cheaper Leaf.
>
>
>
> The Tesla Y at the same 21K miles is still doing 325 miles range and charges
> *much* faster (up to 200KW pre-cooling the pack), more fast charging
> stations through the easy to use GPS.
>
>
>
> Have a renewable energy day,
>
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> Mark E. Hanson
>
> 184 Vista Lane
>
> Fincastle, VA 24090
>
> 540-473-1248 phone & FAX, 540-816-0812 cell
>
> REEVA: community service RE & EV project club
>
> Website: www.REEVAdiy.org (See Project Gallery)
>
> UL Certified PV Installer
>
> My RE Circuits: www.EVDL.org/lib/mh
>
> REEVA Demo:   http://youtu.be/4kqWn2H-rA0
>
>
>  75b8d/signature> Fincastle Solar Weather Station
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Join Home Electrification on Nextdoor

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

But it would seem that th length of the lines will make a difference
in the degree of charging.
Maybe they have a huge reservoir?
I'd think the mmain unit does not contain any more piping inside than
the lines outside
so there is a lof of difference depending on how long the lines are?
Bob

On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 7:05 PM John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:
>
> On Fri Dec 03 13:59:11 PST 2021 bruni...@usna.edu said:
> >How do you do the freon by DIY?
>
> >On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 11:04 AM John Lussmyer via EV  
> >wrote:
> >> Or, if you want one that just works both ways automatically, just buy one 
> >> of the Mini-Split heatpump systems off Amazon and install it yourself.  
> >> It's not hard, lots of Youtube videos showing how.
> >> (I've done 4 systems so far)
>
> They come pre-charged.  you just need a vacuum pump to suck the air out of 
> the lines before opening the valves.
>
> --
> Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
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Re: [EVDL] Join Home Electrification on Nextdoor

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

How do you do the freon by DIY?
Bob

On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 11:04 AM John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:
>
> On Fri Dec 03 07:56:13 PST 2021 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
> >BEST DEAL IS FINDING a dual hose or single hose portable AC and pui tting it
> >outside to blow inside.  Or put itin the basement or unused (OK to be cold) 
> >room
> >and let the hot side hose blow up into your occupied space.
>
> Or, if you want one that just works both ways automatically, just buy one of 
> the Mini-Split heatpump systems off Amazon and install it yourself.  It's not 
> hard, lots of Youtube videos showing how.
> (I've done 4 systems so far)
>
>
>
> --
>
> Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
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Re: [EVDL] Join Home Electrification on Nextdoor

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Using a heat pump instead of space heaters would save THREE times in cost.
Several DIY ways to do it.  A Heatpump and an old AC unit are the same
thing, just
depends on which way you put it in the window!

I pickup used AC units along the street and there is never anything wrong with
the Heating/Cooling loop.  Typical problems are;
1)  Filter never cleaned so the coils are all cloggedup
2) Fan shaft is all gunked up and wont spin (WD40 - then new oil)

For heatpump, Put an AC unit in the window backwards (knobs on oursideand set
to coldest.  But still that wont work below 60F, so best to find the
thermostat and
jumper it always on.  Then use power strip switch or other switch to control.
Also, you cannot run it for hours on end bvecuae an AC unithas no defrost cycle
so you have to let any ice melt.

BEST DEAL IS FINDING a dual hose or single hose portable AC and pui tting it
outside to blow inside.  Or put itin the basement or unused (OK to be cold) room
and let the hot side hose blow up into your occupied space.

Bob, WB4APR

On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 2:10 AM Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:
>
>
>
> We have been converting over a decade. Solar panels about 15 years ago. Cost 
> too much and too small. However it makes it big difference when you can do a 
> lot of chores using 120vac appliances. We replaced the 1935 electric water 
> heater with a new one in 2015. We bought a used Bosch ventless clothes dryer 
> for a hundred bucks. Bought three induction cook plates new or used for 50 
> bucks or less each. Bought a $99 Oster French door oven which will do 16-inch 
> pizzas or a small turkey as well as casseroles. Have a crockpot. We use space 
> heaters so I suppose it would be cheaper to go heat pump. I'll talk to Cor 
> about that. All in all we did it on the cheap even selling our old gas stove 
> which paid for all the induction hot plates. Very convenient. You can move 
> them around and put them away to make room to chop food. Our total 
> transportation and household energy cost was $450 for last year which 
> included transportation with EVs totaling 12k miles for two cars and all 
> household usage. We di
 d try to use energy while the sun shines and took advantage of free charging 
at work and at Nissan dealers. Lawrence Rhodes
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, December 2, 2021, 10:47:49 PM PST, Cor van de Water 
>  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> I see it is dedicated to San Francisco area.
> Home electrification is going to happen.
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[EVDL] Bolt in standby?

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

How long will the Bolt remain in the ON condition so you can
draw power from its 12v battery while it replenishes it from
its HV battery and DC/DC converter?
Bob
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Re: [EVDL] DC/DC converter for sale

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

what voltage in?
What voltage out?

On Sat, Nov 13, 2021 at 10:53 PM nathan christiansn via EV
 wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I have an Elcon DC/DC converter for sale. The label says is is good to 30
> amps on the output, but I have never seen more than 8 amps come out of it,
> so I am selling it as-is. It also produces a large amount of electrical
> noise on the output.
>
> I am asking $10 + shipping.
>
> Please email me if interested - I would post pictures but EVDL does not
> allow pictures to pass through the list. I can send you pictures via email
> if you are interested.
>
> Nathan
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla fast charging converters

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I agree completely in the lunacy of PIX file sizes but it is so easy
to reduce size to under 500k and still be almost full screen size in
an email.  Just open all photos into PAINT and hit "resize" to
20% which reduces the file size by 20% squared or 4%.  For
even newer cameras, I find I need 15% or even 10% to get
the picture small but still nearly full screen size.
Then I save the file with the same file name but an "x" at the
end so I have both the original and a small size one.

So I would love it if you could limit file size to maybe 1 meg and
then allow them.  Or even 500k if you like.  People who want to
post can take the extra step, those that wont take the step get
their picture blocked.

It only takes a few seconds for a sender to reduce file size.
Bob, WB4APR

Bob

On Mon, Nov 8, 2021 at 2:11 AM EVDL Administrator via EV
 wrote:
>
> On 7 Nov 2021 at 19:12, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
>
> > No images pass through the list.
>
> Please post your photos in a PUBLIC, OPEN place (no signup or login
> required, please, even if it's free).
>
> That means ABSOLUTELY NOT EVER on Fakebook or Tweezer.  Not even on an
> allegedly public page.  Sorry, I'm weird about this.
>
> Then post a link to the list.
>
> I use Postimage
>
> https://postimages.org/
>
> It works great.
>
> For those who wonder why the list filters out pictures:
>
> When the list was young, a lot of subscribers were on slow and/or pay by the
> KB or MB connections.
>
> Now hardly anyone is.  However, the default size of digital photos has gone
> completely insane, 10-16mp, with file sizes in the 3-20mb range.  And a
> large number of users *cannot* be convinced to resize them before posting.
>
> Therefore the "no photo attachments" policy remains for now.  You're welcome
> to try to convince me to change it.
>
> And get off my lawn.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  When we look at Auschwitz we see the end of the process. The
>  Holocaust did not start with gas chambers. The hatred gradually
>  developed from words, stereotypes and prejudice, through legal
>  exclusion, dehumanisation and escalating violence.
>
>  -- The Auschwitz Museum
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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Re: [EVDL] New subject: Cheap Level 2 EVSE

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Yes, I hve identified an excellent exterior rated box at very low cost,
but it requires cutting a hole in the front palnle stell box.

Something I am excited to do, but now that I am disabled and cannot
even make it out to the shop, it wouild be something I am suggesting
someone else do and  in this case it is someone with no technical skills
at a location in anotgher city and a building /group of shich I am
not a member.

So again, I lament the loss of low cost L2 on-the-wall charge boxes.
Bob

On Mon, Oct 25, 2021 at 3:51 PM Willie McKemie via EV  wrote:
>
> You might consider putting the unit in a steel securable box. Maybe with a
> wire mesh window so the user can see the lights on the unit. I guess the
> cost of the steel box would be would cover the difference between a proper
> wall mount and the portable. On the other hand the portable is available.
>
> On Mon, Oct 25, 2021, 14:42 Robert Bruninga via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > But that is still a charge cord.
> > I want a non-stealable wall mount cheap L2 charger box
> > for a public space not one's home garage...
> > and they have disappeared.
> > bob
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 6:34 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV
> >  wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > https://www.amazon.com/Charger-Portable-Electric-Charging-Universal/dp/B096GBJW14
> > Here is a $139 level 2 EVSE of course it's only 16amps so limited to 3 or
> > 4kw. Lawrence Rhodes
> > >
> > > I buy the $299 L2 charge cords that will do both L1 and L2.
> > > But what has disappeared is the $300 wall mounted L2.
> > > I want to donate an L2 to an organization, but the less
> > > expensive ones have disappeared.
> > >
> > > Bob
> > > ___
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Re: [EVDL] New subject: Cheap Level 2 EVSE

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

But that is still a charge cord.
I want a non-stealable wall mount cheap L2 charger box
for a public space not one's home garage...
and they have disappeared.
bob

On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 6:34 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV
 wrote:
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Charger-Portable-Electric-Charging-Universal/dp/B096GBJW14
>  Here is a $139 level 2 EVSE of course it's only 16amps so limited to 3 or 
> 4kw. Lawrence Rhodes
>
> I buy the $299 L2 charge cords that will do both L1 and L2.
> But what has disappeared is the $300 wall mounted L2.
> I want to donate an L2 to an organization, but the less
> expensive ones have disappeared.
>
> Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Michigan still spouting FUD. From the Detroit not so free press.

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

And I say, in most cases, an EV is a poor choice for those
city dwellers.  Especially true of the original 100 mile EV's.
But now that 250 miles is kmore common, it is true that an urban
EV owner that has a short commute and o nly 20 miles a day of
car use, could get by with weekly charging, but I just cannot
imagine anyone who would like to FIND an availalbe L2 charger
and then to plugin, and then have to come back 3 hours later.
And if one thinks that it is getting harder to find an available
charger, just wait, it will only get worse.

I tell people.  If you buy an EV with the idea of using exclusively
public charging, then an EV is not right for you, or you fail to
understand the difference between a battgery and a tank and
between an EV and a gas car.

Bob

On Sat, Oct 23, 2021 at 5:40 PM Matthew Pitts via EV  wrote:
>
> Rural and suburban drivers might have the option to charge at home, and there 
> might be businesses willing to allow employees to charge at work, but for 
> urban EV owners, public charging may in fact be the only option. Just my 
> opinion, though.
>
> Matthew Pitts
>
> ⁣Get BlueMail for Android
>
> On Oct 23, 2021, 4:28 PM, at 4:28 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
>  wrote:
> >EV's are charged while parked (usually at home or at work), not at
> >public chargers.
> >I have a new argument.
> >
> >Comparing a gas car and EV exclusively limited to public chargi9ng
> >could equally be applied to comparing a gas car and EV exclusively
> >limited to home refueling.  Imagine having to walk to a gas station
> >every night to get a few gallons for the tank at home!
> >
> >Bob
> >
> >On Sat, Oct 23, 2021 at 2:28 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> https://amp.freep.com/amp/6110815001 Take onto consideration this is
> >coming from ICE country in more than one way. I will comment on
> >Twitter. Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Level 1 charger...Labor costs??? (Really!??)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> Seriously?
> You _seriously_ want to _hire_ someone to plug your Level 1 "trickle"
> charger (that comes with every EV) into a regular wall socket?
> Seriously?

Well.

We have a rental house rented to a guy (psychiatrist) who used to live
in downtown NY City and is TOTALLY CLUELESS about even a
screwdriver.

The house is a 1920's house with glass/brass door knobs.  He is forever
complaining about "doors" not working because he cannot comprehend
the idea of simply tightening the set screw.  Instead he ends up just
twisting the knob over and over - over time- and eventually the knob
falls off and he blames it on us.

And I have to come in and screw it back on and tighten the set screw.

Everything in the house is like that.  He does not feel he is respnosible
for any "reoutine" maintenqnce" of any sort.  In NYC, he just called the
building handyman...

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Michigan still spouting FUD. From the Detroit not so free press.

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

The national average is 67% of people live in single family detached homes.
But after using that figure for a few years  awoke to the fact that in the
mid-atlantic population (Maryland) the ratio is 50%

So there is going to be a lot of extension cords out of windows.
Bob

On Sat, Oct 23, 2021 at 9:30 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV
 wrote:
>
> Not in L.A..
>
> In California, 50% of the population live in multi-unit housing. How many can 
> reasonably charge at home? I don’t know.
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
> > On Oct 23, 2021, at 5:42 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV  
> > wrote:
> >
> > I'll grant you that there might be a few urban drivers that can't charge 
> > at home.
> > However, in big Cities like NY, many(most?) of the urbanites don't have ANY 
> > cars, relying instead on public transportation, taxis, walking, etc.
> >
> >
> >
> > My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
> >
> > October 23, 2021 2:40 PM, "Matthew Pitts via EV"  wrote:
> >
> >> Rural and suburban drivers might have the option to charge at home, and 
> >> there might be businesses
> >> willing to allow employees to charge at work, but for urban EV owners, 
> >> public charging may in fact
> >> be the only option. Just my opinion, though.
> >>
> >> Matthew Pitts
> >>
> >> ⁣Get BlueMail for Android
> >>
> >>> On Oct 23, 2021, 4:28 PM, at 4:28 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
> >>>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> EV's are charged while parked (usually at home or at work), not at
> >>> public chargers.
> >>> I have a new argument.
> >>>
> >>> Comparing a gas car and EV exclusively limited to public chargi9ng
> >>> could equally be applied to comparing a gas car and EV exclusively
> >>> limited to home refueling. Imagine having to walk to a gas station
> >>> every night to get a few gallons for the tank at home!
> >>>
> >>> Bob
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Oct 23, 2021 at 2:28 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV
> >>>  wrote:
> >>>> https://amp.freep.com/amp/6110815001 Take onto consideration this is
> >>>
> >>> coming from ICE country in more than one way. I will comment on
> >>> Twitter. Lawrence Rhodes
> >>>> -- next part --
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> >>>
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Re: [EVDL] Michigan still spouting FUD. From the Detroit not so free press.

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I buy the $299 L2 charge cords that will do both L1 and L2.
But what has disappeared is the $300 wall mounted L2.
I want to donate an L2 to an organization, but the less
expensive ones have disappeared.

Bob

On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 12:41 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:
>
> Depends on when that was written. They were higher priced in the beginning 
> but have come down about 30 or 40% since 2010-12. Don’t quote me!
>
>
> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Saturday, October 23, 2021, 7:23 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV 
>  wrote:
>
> I know nothing about Level 1 charger costs, so did a quick Google, found this:
>
> https://blog.carvana.com/2021/07/how-much-does-it-cost-to-install-an-ev-charger/
>
> “ For example, the Level 1 charger costs between $300 to $600 before labor, 
> which stands at about $1,000 to $1,700.”
>
> Is this wrong?
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
> > On Oct 23, 2021, at 4:10 PM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  
> > wrote:
> >
> > She lost me on $600 level 1 charger(EVSE) Lawrence Rhodes
> > ___
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Re: [EVDL] Michigan still spouting FUD. From the Detroit not so free press.

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

EV's are charged while parked (usually at home or at work), not at
public chargers.
I have a new argument.

Comparing a gas car and EV exclusively limited to public chargi9ng
could equally be applied to comparing a gas car and EV exclusively
limited to home refueling.  Imagine having to walk to a gas station
every night to get a few gallons for the tank at home!

Bob

On Sat, Oct 23, 2021 at 2:28 PM Lawrence Rhodes via EV
 wrote:
>
> https://amp.freep.com/amp/6110815001 Take onto consideration this is coming 
> from ICE country in more than one way. I will comment on Twitter. Lawrence 
> Rhodes
> -- next part --
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[EVDL] EVs and Tesla

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Can you believe it?  T
Tesla wins again!
The stock was $65 just 2 years ago in 2019
and is  over $860 now...

Just sayin...  Anyone who bets against Tesla or EV's for the future
is headed for disappointment.

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] HV DC input -to- 120VDC output inverter???

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

What can a PV panel do that can impact the function of an inverter?
A PV panel is just a Diode and current source with a bypass diode on them?

On Sun, Oct 17, 2021 at 3:33 PM Willie via EV  wrote:

> They are very nice and cost effective grid tie inverters if your panels
> work  well with transformerless inverters.  I would be using many H6s if
> I did not have to carefully select panels for them.   If you use modern
> panels, they will likely work well for you.
>
> If anyone researches and finds credible accounts of daytime off grid
> power working, please point me to them.
>
> I don't think anyone has used them with a battery.  Solar City seems to
> have them made by Delta for an old DC PowerWall battery which is either
> VERY rare or never made.
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] HV DC input -to- 120VDC output inverter???

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Yes!
Fantastic!  Is the full 6 kW availalbe in full sun (and no battery)
or just 15 amp "secure power" outlet like on the SUnnyboy?
Amd $400 is a GREAT deal compared to the thousand+ for the sunny boy.

Is this a reproducible sustainable source of inverters like this. or are these
closeouts? is Solarcity solar even alive?
Bob

On Sun, Oct 17, 2021 at 11:00 AM Peter VanDerWal  wrote:
>
> You mean like a Solarcity H6 (AKA Delta H6)?
>
> When Tesla bought out Solarcity they dropped this inverter, someone has been 
> clearing them out on Ebay for $400 or so.
>
> It was originally designed to wrok with something like a Powerwall for backup 
> power, but will work without it and people have reported success with 
> connecting the HV battery packs on EVs to the PV input (accepts 120V to 550V 
> input)
>
>
> My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
>
> October 15, 2021 1:57 PM, "Robert Bruninga via EV"  wrote:
>
> > Mark,
> >
> >> I used to design switching power supplies...
> >
> > Have you considered filling the strong market need for a 200-500 VDC input
> > to 120 VAC output 2 kW inverter that can be used on Solar systems to
> > charge any EV (via its own EVSE) independent of the grid. There is a
> > CRYING need for this high-demand inverter.
> >
> > Or it can be used to power one's house from one's EV when the grid
> > goes down? So much potential!
> > Bob
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 8:26 AM Mark Hanson via EV  
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Hi folks
> >> All the EVs I’ve converted over the years until 2011 , Electro Metro, 
> >> Cushman, Cheese Wedge, Geo
> >> Tracker, Porsche 914, Karmann Ghia, I was able to pick up all radio 
> >> stations including AM but
> >> mostly listen to NPR on low band FM. I used to design switching power 
> >> supplies and class D
> >> amplifiers to meet FCC part B EMI requirements in my day job.
> >> All power cables a pos-neg (to cancel magnetic RF) are tightly ty wrapped 
> >> together under the far
> >> right passenger side underneath the car and all the control wires under 
> >> the left side. The speed
> >> control must be as close to the motor as possible with short cables 
> >> (that’s the main EMI source).
> >> You can put an inline common mode choke pi filter on the 12V wires feeding 
> >> the radio but I didn’t
> >> have to. Just proper layout of power components separate from control 
> >> wiring is the main
> >> consideration.
> >> Best regards
> >> Mark
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >> ___
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Re: [EVDL] HV DC input -to- 120VDC output inverter???

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Which is why the HV input product is needed.  A 1500W inverter from
wal mart is only $100  (one tenth as much) and the only difference is
the input circuitry
and winding on the HV transformer..

Sure, there is no mass market demand (yet), but it will come.
bob

On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 8:21 PM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
>
> It's called the SPS (Secure Power Supply) outlet from a SMA SunnyBoy
> inverter.
>
> https://www.thesolarnerd.com/blog/sma-sunnyboy-inverters/
>
> Cost is around $1500-$2000 on ebay depending on the size you want, plus
> they work as a grid tie solar inverter when your power is on.
>
>
> https://files.sma.de/downloads/SBxx-US-DS-en-39.pdf
>
> 600v max DC voltage, 155-480V DC optimal.
>
> Jay
>
> On 10/15/21 4:57 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> > Mark,
> >
> >> I used to design switching power supplies...
> >
> > Have you considered filling the strong market need for a 200-500 VDC input
> > to 120 VAC output 2 kW inverter that can be used on Solar systems to
> > charge any EV (via its own EVSE) independent of the grid.  There is a
> > CRYING need for this high-demand inverter.
> >
> > Or it can be used to power one's house from one's EV when the grid
> > goes down?   So much potential!
> > Bob
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 8:26 AM Mark Hanson via EV  
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi folks
> >> All the EVs I’ve converted over the years until 2011 , Electro Metro, 
> >> Cushman, Cheese Wedge, Geo Tracker, Porsche 914, Karmann Ghia, I was able 
> >> to pick up all radio stations including AM but mostly listen to NPR on low 
> >> band FM.  I used to design switching power supplies and class D amplifiers 
> >> to meet FCC part B EMI requirements in my day job.
> >> All power cables a pos-neg (to cancel magnetic RF) are tightly ty wrapped 
> >> together under the far right passenger side underneath the car and all the 
> >> control wires under the left side. The speed control must be as close to 
> >> the motor as possible with short cables (that’s the main EMI source).   
> >> You can put an inline common mode choke pi filter on the 12V wires feeding 
> >> the radio but I didn’t have to. Just proper layout of power components 
> >> separate from control wiring is the main consideration.
> >> Best regards
> >> Mark
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >> ___
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[EVDL] HV DC input -to- 120VDC output inverter???

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Mark,

>I used to design switching power supplies...

Have you considered filling the strong market need for a 200-500 VDC input
to 120 VAC output 2 kW inverter that can be used on Solar systems to
charge any EV (via its own EVSE) independent of the grid.  There is a
CRYING need for this high-demand inverter.

Or it can be used to power one's house from one's EV when the grid
goes down?   So much potential!
Bob

On Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 8:26 AM Mark Hanson via EV  wrote:
>
> Hi folks
> All the EVs I’ve converted over the years until 2011 , Electro Metro, 
> Cushman, Cheese Wedge, Geo Tracker, Porsche 914, Karmann Ghia, I was able to 
> pick up all radio stations including AM but mostly listen to NPR on low band 
> FM.  I used to design switching power supplies and class D amplifiers to meet 
> FCC part B EMI requirements in my day job.
> All power cables a pos-neg (to cancel magnetic RF) are tightly ty wrapped 
> together under the far right passenger side underneath the car and all the 
> control wires under the left side. The speed control must be as close to the 
> motor as possible with short cables (that’s the main EMI source).   You can 
> put an inline common mode choke pi filter on the 12V wires feeding the radio 
> but I didn’t have to. Just proper layout of power components separate from 
> control wiring is the main consideration.
> Best regards
> Mark
>
> Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Radio Noise Issue

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Forget about it.  THink of the converter as a 10  kW Pulse RDIO TRANSMITTER.
Unless car is designed from ground up to eliminate EMI, it just is impossible.

Bob

On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 7:48 PM nathan christiansn via EV
 wrote:
>
> Hello Everyone,
>
> I have a Geo Metro that I converted electric and the radio has never been
> able to pick up more than one station because of all the noise the dc-dc
> converter outputs. I have been able to verify that the noise is being
> picked up through the 12 volt input of the radio and not through the
> antenna. I have tried putting a large line-voltage EMI filter on the output
> of the dc-dc converter and it did not do anything. I also tried putting a
> large capacitor on the output and experienced similar results.
>
> Is there anyone out there who has had a similar issue and found a solution?
> Any ideas would be appreciated.
>
> Nathan
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Re: [EVDL] Radio Noise Issue

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Oh by the way,
I too have a lightly used Geo Metro Tracker 1996 in Glen Burnie Md
that is going on the market soon.  4 wheel drive, etc.
Still gas though...
Bob

On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 8:19 PM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
>
> Radio, particularly AM, is a lost cause on home conversions. The EMI and
> RFI is just to difficult for the home converter to deal with. Takes
> serious and time consuming work on shielding and filtering of the EV
> components and wiring to get it down to a level where you can listen to
> an ordinary AM radio.
> Even the early OEM EV's did not do well on the AM stations. I suspect
> that the AM radios in EV's are somewhat special.
>
> My best suggestion to this issue is to listen to a podcast on your phone.
>
> Bill D.
>
> On 10/14/2021 12:48 PM, nathan christiansn via EV wrote:
> > Hello Everyone,
> >
> > I have a Geo Metro that I converted electric and the radio has never been
> > able to pick up more than one station because of all the noise the dc-dc
> > converter outputs. I have been able to verify that the noise is being
> > picked up through the 12 volt input of the radio and not through the
> > antenna. I have tried putting a large line-voltage EMI filter on the output
> > of the dc-dc converter and it did not do anything. I also tried putting a
> > large capacitor on the output and experienced similar results.
> >
> > Is there anyone out there who has had a similar issue and found a solution?
> > Any ideas would be appreciated.
> >
> > Nathan
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> >
>
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Re: [EVDL] "EV to ... home" ==> 2nd EV for 100% solar charging

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I spent all day working up a web page to describe going off-grid
with two Nissan Leaf's serving as the home battery on alternate
days.  Fully charge one during the solar day while the other is at
work.  THen swap.

But as I finished he graphics, to my horror, I looked up the current
prices of used Leaf's and they have DOUBLED over the last year or
so due to COVID.  So the 50% or more savings by using a LEAF
instead of a powerwall is just not there now.

Anyway, here is the page for discussion...
http://aprs.org/off-grid-with-EV.html

Bob, WB4APR

On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 6:41 PM Robert Bruninga  wrote:
>
> Going off-grid:
>
> Buy a used Leaf as a second EV.  Charge each one on
> alternating days.  So you have a huge battery charging
> everyday from solar, and you have an EV for goiong to work
> AND you get THREE times the battery for the same cost
> as a powerwall!. (and a spare car)
>
> Bob
>
> > In Maryland it costs me $8/mo to be grid tied.
> > His cost is more like $70/mo or more!
> > I agree, I woiuld be buldozing a path to "off grid" designs there.
> > --
> > > Actually, it's even worse than that. 
> > > Now she  5 days a week.  That uses about 10kwh
> > > per day EV charging and, she has to charge mostly when the
> > > sun isn't shining.
> > >
> > > The new 'Solar Customer' pricing is $50 a month for grid
> > > connection plus about $15 a month for taxes and other fees,
> > > plus now instead of banking power for free, I get paid
> > > wholesale for each kWh I push and charged retail for every
> > > kwh I pull from the grid.  The difference is about 8 cents per kwh.
> > >
> > > So next year when this goes into effect I'll pay on average
> > > $36 a month for banking power, plus the $65 mentioned above.
> > > SO closer to $100 a month even though I'm net zero (well
> > > surplus actually) on power.
> > >
> > > I'm building a 10kwh solar charging station to offset most
> > > EV charging costs and then, I'm going off-grid.
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[EVDL] "EV to ... home" ==> 2nd EV for 100% solar charging

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Going off-grid:

Buy a used Leaf as a second EV.  Charge each one on
alternating days.  So you have a huge battery charging
everyday from solar, and you have an EV for goiong to work
AND you get THREE times the battery for the same cost
as a powerwall!. (and a spare car)

Bob

> In Maryland it costs me $8/mo to be grid tied.
> His cost is more like $70/mo or more!
> I agree, I woiuld be buldozing a path to "off grid" designs there.
> --
> > Actually, it's even worse than that. 
> > Now she  5 days a week.  That uses about 10kwh
> > per day EV charging and, she has to charge mostly when the
> > sun isn't shining.
> >
> > The new 'Solar Customer' pricing is $50 a month for grid
> > connection plus about $15 a month for taxes and other fees,
> > plus now instead of banking power for free, I get paid
> > wholesale for each kWh I push and charged retail for every
> > kwh I pull from the grid.  The difference is about 8 cents per kwh.
> >
> > So next year when this goes into effect I'll pay on average
> > $36 a month for banking power, plus the $65 mentioned above.
> > SO closer to $100 a month even though I'm net zero (well
> > surplus actually) on power.
> >
> > I'm building a 10kwh solar charging station to offset most
> > EV charging costs and then, I'm going off-grid.
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Re: [EVDL] Include in events: "EV to power your home"

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

This from one EVDL member remindign me of how bad some utilities
are at progress.  I removed his info since I didnt wait for permission
to repost:

In Maryland it costs me $8/mo to be grid tied.
His cost is more like $70/mo or more!
I agree, I woiuld be buldozing a path to "off grid" designs there.
--
> Actually, it's even worse than that.  When I originally came up
> with the $70 a month figure my wife wasn't working.  Now she
> volunteers at the  5 days a week.  That uses about 10kwh
> per day EV charging and, she has to charge mostly when the
> sun isn't shining.
>
> The new 'Solar Customer' pricing is $50 a month for grid
> connection plus about $15 a month for taxes and other fees,
> plus now instead of banking power for free, I get paid
> wholesale for each kWh I push and charged retail for every
> kwh I pull from the grid.  The difference is about 8 cents per kwh.
>
> So next year when this goes into effect I'll pay on average
> $36 a month for banking power, plus the $65 mentioned above.
> SO closer to $100 a month even though I'm net zero (well
> surplus actually) on power.
>
> I'm building a 10kwh solar charging station to offset most
> EV charging costs and then, I'm going off-grid.
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Re: [EVDL] V2H

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> What everyone is missing is that v2g is vehicle to grid.
> In other words you can power the grid with the batteries
> in your vehicle. I don’t see the attraction.

Agree.  But V-2-H (home) is a great EV application.  V2G requires
100% utility buy-in to PAY EV owners for their juice and the utility
greed just wont let that happen except under forced government
intervention.  Dont waste our time.

The business model that does work is "someday" when the utility
will sign up to give us free daily charging in exchange to access
to our batteries for an hour or so during the late afternoon when
their peaking generators have to ramp up at ten times the cost
over just a few hours as the sun goes down.until base-load generation
can kick in (and/or we go to bed).  - Bob
>
> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
>
> On Monday, October 4, 2021, 6:45 PM, Peter VanDerWal via EV 
>  wrote:
>
> > Also, what a great way to power a robust 120v circular saw or drill away
> > from home. (Yeah, I know that cordless power tools exist.) For example,
> > you could buy a sheet of plywood at the lumberyard and cut it into the
> > pieces you need right there in the parking lot, so that it fits neatly into
> > your car. Not that I've ever done anything like that in a Home Depot
> > parking lot, of course. :-)
>
> Most(all?) HD/Lowes stores have a panel saw and will cut the plywood for you 
> for free.  Just sayin'.
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Re: [EVDL] Include in events: "EV to power your home"

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I believe we have discussed this and that you do have some kinda
justification for "going off grid", but for others, it makes no economic
sense to me.If I generate all my power, I am still perfectly happy to
pay $8 a month for keeping the grid accouint.  Kinda like
insurance..

The last thing I want to do in life is maintain batteries for the
rest of my life.   Out of the blue I took a life changing hit in my
health and cannot possibly maintain all the special "features"
I have built into the house for "fun" but now, impossible to
maintain by my wife.  I am an ardent DIY guy, but now am
a CDIMA (Cant do it myself Anymore). - Bob

On Sun, Oct 3, 2021 at 12:58 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV
 wrote:
>
> > I said that. Lost power for three days back in the 90's when a tornado blew 
> > through. Not worth
> > investing a lot of money for 3 days every 25 years.
>
> I agree it's not worth buying an EV JUST to use it as a backup power source.  
> However, most people buy EVs to drive.  When deciding which EV to buy, one 
> that has the capability of powering your house in an emergency situation 
> might just be a deciding factor for many people.
>
> FWIW I moved my critical loads (Fridge/Freezer, HVAC, etc.) to a new subpanel 
> with a transfer switch so that I could power my critical loads from my EVs 
> during a power outage.
> Once we go off-grid this setup will allow me to get by with a smaller house 
> battery. Even if we get an extended period of low sunshine, either of my EVs 
> could power my critical loads for a week or two, which is more than long 
> enough wait out the stormy weather.
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Re: [EVDL] Include in events: "EV to power your home"

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

The Ioniq -5 comes with a 2 kW 120v outlet capability.
The ford has 9.6 kW.  More will follow.  Let me know and
I will maintain a list.

Its not just power outages.  I have used mine to mow my rental
property lawn, to cut a downed tree off the road, and many dozens
of times I am working in the driveway and it is easier to plug into
the car thn fuss with a 100' extension cord.. Also, picnicking and
camping
bob

On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 8:03 AM paul dove  wrote:
>
> I doubt very seriously if that’s a significant selling point. My power went 
> out maybe 5 times in 40 years. Besides why would I use my car that I would 
> need to drive. It’s trying to solve a non-existent problem.
>
>
> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021, 3:33 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
>  wrote:
>
> > EV owners should consider encouraging people to demonstrate how
> > any EV or plugin can be used to power one's house critical needs during
> > a power outage for days or a week.  This is a real selling point for EV's
> > that has not been mentioned for ten years of EV's.  But finally the
> > Ford F150 Lightening is including it in their advertising.
> >
> > Please see the photo of our National Drive Electric demo last weekend
> > of home power at: http://aprs.org/FrankenVolt.html
> >
> > Thanks
> > Bob Bruninga, PE,
> > Author http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html
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Re: [EVDL] Include in events: "EV to power your home"

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Tell that to the millions who lost power for weeks a while back.
Everyone's local grid has its own vulnerabilities.

People that need it should be aware of this value of EV's to
their situation.
bob

On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 8:03 AM paul dove  wrote:
>
> I doubt very seriously if that’s a significant selling point. My power went 
> out maybe 5 times in 40 years. Besides why would I use my car that I would 
> need to drive. It’s trying to solve a non-existent problem.
>
>
> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
> On Wednesday, September 29, 2021, 3:33 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
>  wrote:
>
> > EV owners should consider encouraging people to demonstrate how
> > any EV or plugin can be used to power one's house critical needs during
> > a power outage for days or a week.  This is a real selling point for EV's
> > that has not been mentioned for ten years of EV's.  But finally the
> > Ford F150 Lightening is including it in their advertising.
> >
> > Please see the photo of our National Drive Electric demo last weekend
> > of home power at: http://aprs.org/FrankenVolt.html
> >
> > Thanks
> > Bob Bruninga, PE,
> > Author http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html
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[EVDL] Include in events: "EV to power your home"

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> EV owners should consider encouraging people to demonstrate how
> any EV or plugin can be used to power one's house critical needs during
> a power outage for days or a week.  This is a real selling point for EV's
> that has not been mentioned for ten years of EV's.  But finally the
> Ford F150 Lightening is including it in their advertising.
>
> Please see the photo of our National Drive Electric demo last weekend
> of home power at: http://aprs.org/FrankenVolt.html
>
> Thanks
> Bob Bruninga, PE,
> Author http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html
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[EVDL] Electric Trains

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Its a stretch for this EVDL list... but humor me...

Will my 70 year old Lionel Train engine run on DC?
Grandaughter will be here this weekend and I assuyned
the engine would run fine (though sloly) on a 6v'
lantern battery

No joy, it deesent.  and no time to troubleshoot.
THought I'd ask here.
Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Charging a BOLT from 120v

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> That's crazy expensive

Check  your math. its a great deal. About $15 per month for 20 days of
work place charging
or about 75 cents a day.  Spread over 7.5 hours a day, that is about 10 cents
an hour.  To charge from an L1 charger takes 1.5 kW per hour, so the
price is about 6 cents per kWh much below the typical 12 Cents
national electric rates.

Bob

On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 2:32 PM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>
> That's crazy expensive, at about $1.30/kwh if you charge for 8 hours
> full bore. How about negociating a price more like $30 / month, which is
> about 22 days x 8 hours x $0.15 / kwh
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Robert Bruninga" 
> Sent: 13-Sep-21 11:25:48
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Charging a BOLT from 120v
>
> >Its an easy problem to solve.  Fed employess can pay $6 per paypeirod for
> >authority to plugin to any 120v federal outlet.
> >
> >See:  https://www.sustainability.gov/pdfs/guidance_fed_workplace_charging.pdf
> >
> >Bob
> >
> >
> >On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 12:23 PM Peter Eckhoff via EV  
> >wrote:
> >>
> >>  I was upstate NY when the outside temp hit -52F one morning in
> >>  January, 1966.  So this interests me as many used block and oil pan
> >>  heaters.  Some brought their batteries in at night to keep them warm.
> >>
> >>  I feel your son's frustration.  I know there is active pack thermal
> >>  management and power is drawn from the pack when not plugged in.  He
> >>  would have to be plugged in to offset any pack power depletion due to
> >>  that thermal management.
> >>
> >>  I found this online (ref:
> >>https://www.wisconsinpublicservice.com/savings/business/farm-tractor):
> >>
> >>  "A 1000-watt engine heater that runs 10 hours per day (overnight
> >>  typically) from late November through mid March will use about $90 in
> >>  electricity. A clock timer can save money on your electric bill by
> >>  activating the engine block heater two hours before it's normally
> >>  used, saving over $70 in electricity per year."  I saw where some
> >>  heaters had lesser wattage ratings and some that were higher.
> >>
> >>  I'd ask my co-workers what the power rating of  their block heaters
> >>  are and if they are on timers, etc.  A 1000-watt engine heater would
> >>  draw 8 amps which is the lowest(?) Level 1 charge rate on the Bolt.
> >>  But a Bolt's electrical needs are constant even in summer.  Do his
> >>  co-workers use timers?
> >>
> >>  I can supply him with a reference graph from Exxon Mobil showing the
> >>  peaking of Liquid Crude Supply around the year 2040:
> >>https://corporate.exxonmobil.com/-/media/Global/Files/outlook-for-energy/2019-Outlook-for-Energy_v4.pdf
> >>   (Slide #31)
> >>
> >>  The next question is what will his managers do as there will be more
> >>  EV production and adoption leading up and as we go through the
> >>  peaking?  Can he work an experiment with his managers to measure his
> >>  draw as a prelude to other EV charging in the future?
> >>
> >>  As a last resort, is there a way for him to negotiate a way to pay for
> >>  any "excess" electricity used?
> >>
> >>  Please keep us informed on what happens.
> >>
> >>  Peter
> >>
> >>
> >>  On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 9:31 AM Robert Bruninga via EV
> >>   wrote:
> >>  >
> >>  > I need to understand the settings for charging a Bolt EV.
> >>  >
> >>  > My son's workplace in Alaska says he cannot plugin his Bolt EV to the
> >>  > dedicated 120v oiutlets provided in every parking spot because EV
> >>  > charging is not authorized.
> >>  >
> >>  > But what about battey heating?  When every other employee gets to
> >>  > maintain a block heater, he shoud be able to maintain his battery
> >>  > temperature.
> >>  >
> >>  > Is there a setting in the Bolt to set battery warming but NOT charging
> >>  > while plugged into 120v?
> >>  >
> >>  > Thanks Bob
> >>  > ___
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Re: [EVDL] Charging a BOLT from 120v

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Its an easy problem to solve.  Fed employess can pay $6 per paypeirod for
authority to plugin to any 120v federal outlet.

See:  https://www.sustainability.gov/pdfs/guidance_fed_workplace_charging.pdf

Bob


On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 12:23 PM Peter Eckhoff via EV  wrote:
>
> I was upstate NY when the outside temp hit -52F one morning in
> January, 1966.  So this interests me as many used block and oil pan
> heaters.  Some brought their batteries in at night to keep them warm.
>
> I feel your son's frustration.  I know there is active pack thermal
> management and power is drawn from the pack when not plugged in.  He
> would have to be plugged in to offset any pack power depletion due to
> that thermal management.
>
> I found this online (ref:
> https://www.wisconsinpublicservice.com/savings/business/farm-tractor):
>
> "A 1000-watt engine heater that runs 10 hours per day (overnight
> typically) from late November through mid March will use about $90 in
> electricity. A clock timer can save money on your electric bill by
> activating the engine block heater two hours before it's normally
> used, saving over $70 in electricity per year."  I saw where some
> heaters had lesser wattage ratings and some that were higher.
>
> I'd ask my co-workers what the power rating of  their block heaters
> are and if they are on timers, etc.  A 1000-watt engine heater would
> draw 8 amps which is the lowest(?) Level 1 charge rate on the Bolt.
> But a Bolt's electrical needs are constant even in summer.  Do his
> co-workers use timers?
>
> I can supply him with a reference graph from Exxon Mobil showing the
> peaking of Liquid Crude Supply around the year 2040:
> https://corporate.exxonmobil.com/-/media/Global/Files/outlook-for-energy/2019-Outlook-for-Energy_v4.pdf
>  (Slide #31)
>
> The next question is what will his managers do as there will be more
> EV production and adoption leading up and as we go through the
> peaking?  Can he work an experiment with his managers to measure his
> draw as a prelude to other EV charging in the future?
>
> As a last resort, is there a way for him to negotiate a way to pay for
> any "excess" electricity used?
>
> Please keep us informed on what happens.
>
> Peter
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 9:31 AM Robert Bruninga via EV
>  wrote:
> >
> > I need to understand the settings for charging a Bolt EV.
> >
> > My son's workplace in Alaska says he cannot plugin his Bolt EV to the
> > dedicated 120v oiutlets provided in every parking spot because EV
> > charging is not authorized.
> >
> > But what about battey heating?  When every other employee gets to
> > maintain a block heater, he shoud be able to maintain his battery
> > temperature.
> >
> > Is there a setting in the Bolt to set battery warming but NOT charging
> > while plugged into 120v?
> >
> > Thanks Bob
> > ___
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[EVDL] Charging a BOLT from 120v

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I need to understand the settings for charging a Bolt EV.

My son's workplace in Alaska says he cannot plugin his Bolt EV to the
dedicated 120v oiutlets provided in every parking spot because EV
charging is not authorized.

But what about battey heating?  When every other employee gets to
maintain a block heater, he shoud be able to maintain his battery
temperature.

Is there a setting in the Bolt to set battery warming but NOT charging
while plugged into 120v?

Thanks Bob
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Re: [EVDL] LIVE stream 8/31/21 1540 PST A physicist consultant to power utilities on how the EV mass adoption is affecting the

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

google ducks-back-curve.
Battery storage is max value for about 2 hrs a day during the
evening demand as solar shuts down and baseload power ramps up.

When the grid pays battery owners their actual rate during that peak need,
a battery system can completely pay for itself in about 2 yeard.
bob

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 12:53 PM Willie via EV  wrote:
>
>
> On 9/1/21 10:20 AM, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
> > It could be that the grid can't handle any significant generation of
> > PV energy. If it could, economics would dictate that excess PV energy
> > would be sold, not shut down.
> >
> > The other possibility is this will produce an incentive to create
> > hydrogen storage for excess PV energy. In my opinion, that's an
> > excellent use for electrolysis plus either hydrogen turbines or fuel
> > cells. Note, for this application, the hydrogen does not need to be
> > compressed.
>
>
> Speaking without great familiarity with storage costs, I think short
> term battery storage is most likely to solve the problem. Battery stored
> energy can get to the grid for only about a 20% loss while hydrogen, as
> I understand, will be FAR less efficient.
>
> Typically, over production of either wind or PV can be managed with
> storage of well under 24 hours.  We can look forward to continued
> battery cost reductions, especially from Tesla.
>
> For longer term storage, hydrogen might find a niche.
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] regent seaglider (Electric Eel - partway there)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Back in the 90's there was even a plan to make a single engine plane
I even signed up and ordered the video
But it wen t bust
Sure would like to see it again.
Bob

On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 12:36 PM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>
> This is interesting. No question ground effect works, that's how float
> planes get enough speed to takeoff and conversely land. But it sounds
> very complicated to actually build a craft that flies this way.
>
> First, the pilot must keep the plane in the ground effect region. I
> suppose with a sophisticated autopilot, this could be done. Manually, I
> think it would be too stressful.
>
> Second, navigation might be tricky if it is "flying" in channels with
> other craft. Perhaps in a pinch, the plane could actually fly and hop
> over other craft, maybe that's their intent. But you can imagine a
> sailboat or whatever craft, getting into the path of the plane without
> realizing they don't have enough time to get out of the way.
>
> The third issue is maneuvering. As pointed out in the article, it's hard
> to make turns while in ground effect. They claim to have a novel
> technique to do that but I didn't see any details.
>
> A ground effect transport could have been done decades ago with gas
> engines. I've never heard of it on a commercial scale. Is that relevant
> ?
>
> Anyone have more knowledge on this ?
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Rod Hower via EV" 
> To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
> Cc: "Rod Hower" ; "EVDL Administrator"
> 
> Sent: 27-Aug-21 05:25:35
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Electric Eel - partway there
>
> >  I just read this one today about the all electric 
> > Seaglider,https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/regent-seaglider-wing-in-ground-effect-vehicle/index.html
> >
>
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Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen vs Battery Power

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

The elephant in the room AMEN!
It makes no sense to pursue Hydrogen simply due to its HUGE inefficiency.
The only thing that drives Hydrogen is GREED.

The greedy goal is to make drivers dependent on something they must
buy from BIG-HYDROGEN (was BIG OIL).   - Bob

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 11:16 PM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>
> Mark, let me expound on this a bit. First, you have provided some facts
> and I thank you. But you are ignoring the elephant in the room, namely
> the inefficiency of producing hydrogen.
>
> Let me put it this way. If you have a 1GW solar farm, should you use
> that electricity to power homes and battery EVs or waste 50% of it to
> produce H2, meanwhile powering those homes from coal- or natural
> gas-generated electricty ?
>
> Or, let me put it another way. On a small scale, subsidies (whether from
> government or from a manufacturer, e.g. Toyota) are fine and an
> excellent way to promote and test new technology. However, in large
> scale, those subsidies must mostly go away or taxpayers will revolt. In
> the case of fuel cell EVs, if many people were to already own one, the
> incentive to produce H2 from natural gas would be overwhelming. (There
> might not be a subsidy on the H2 itself but, clearly, there are
> subsidies for the cars and the 3 years of free fuel.)
>
> Let me put it a third way. If solar panels were so cheap that building
> out solar farms for the sole purpose of producing H2 were feasible, why
> isn't it also feasible to build out solar farms to replace natural gas
> and coal generation of electricity ? It's happening, but at a
> significant cost investment.
>
> --
>
> Here's a few more details on the cost of H2 in california.
>
> According to wikipedia
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy
> a fuel cell can deliver about 33 kWh per kg of H2.
>
> From an earlier post, "the average price of hydrogen in California is
> $16.51 per kg." That means electricity from the fuel cell costs $0.50 /
> kWh. Maybe that's not too bad, but it's still about 2.5 times the cost
> of electricity on the grid in California.
>
> Further, that reference
> https://cafcp.org/content/cost-refill
> doesn't say the source of the "average" hydrogen - solar with hydrolysis
> or natural gas with steam ? But, I found that California law mandates
> that 40% of H2 for fuel cell EVs be produced from renewables, published
> recently:
> https://www.sierranevadaally.org/2021/05/05/hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-are-building-momentum-in-california/#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20consulting%20firm%20Wood%20Mackenzie%2C%20almost%20all%20hydrogen,hydrocarbon%20source%20material%20and%20energy
>
> What is the cost per kWh for the 40% ? That is the only way to
> understand the current true cost of kWh / kg of H2. $16.51 per kg is a
> irrelevant number since it is including nonrenewables.
>
> -
>
> Mark, in order for you to gain credibility from me on this topic, you
> need to address this issue. I'll readily accept that the cost of fuel
> cells will come down and that, maybe, the cost of fueling stations can
> come down when done at large scale. But there's nothing that I'm aware
> of that will significantly bring down the cost of generating H2. Long
> term, that's the crucial element from a customer point of view and, if
> electricity from H2 is significantly more expensive than electricity
> from a battery, it will not gain public acceptance for large scale
> usage.
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Alan Brinkman via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "Alan Brinkman" 
> Sent: 25-Aug-21 13:06:48
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hydrogen vs Battery Power
>
> >Hello EVDL,
> >
> >The draw of Hydrogen is that using it produces H2O, water. What a great
> >exhaust product. But the energy to separate Hydrogen out of H2O to produce
> >it is too great. It is better to use that energy to charge batteries and
> >drive an EV.
> >If you want to spend money on researching how to produce Hydrogen using
> >much less energy, that is a good idea. A catalyst or unique process would
> >be good.
> >Just switching from petroleum fuels to Hydrogen at the current time is not
> >a great benefit. EV's are the tool.
> >
> >Make it a great day!
> >Alan
> >
> >On Wed, Aug 25, 2021, 10:48 AM Willie via EV  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>  On 8/25/21 11:10 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> >>  >>> ...by Electrify America, they said that they charge 31¢/kWh.
> >>  > I have seen rates as low as 3 cents per

Re: [EVDL] Charging EVs was Re: hydrogen isn't green, YEAH for the VOLT!

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

In my mind the VOLT has been the best EV ever made.  It nailed the daily
40 mile american average use and then has gas backup.

Too bad GM simply did not advertise it well and then stopped producing
it too!  I LOVE IT!

See my http://aprs.org/FrankenVolt.html modified for 240W of solar panels
Bob

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 12:52 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV 
wrote:
>
> > But the “wha-a-a” moment was when I saw that you drive a hybrid. Why on
earth would you drive a
> > hybrid? There are plenty of EV options out there, INCLUDING FCEVs! Some
of us like clean air,
> > chief!
> >
>
> We own a Chevy Volt because at the time we bought it, four years ago, it
was the best available option.
> It has enough range on batteries, EPA rated at 53 miles but I've gotten
over 90 miles per charge on occasion, for our normal daily use, with the
availability to switch to gas on long trips, it gets 42mpg when running on
gas.
>
> in 2017 there was no option to use hydrogen in my area, this hasn't
changed and I doubt that will change any time soon.
> In 2017 there were no charging stations (level-2 or level-3) that could
get us any further away than Phoenix.
>
> We bought the Volt because it would provide us with a vehicle that could
drive to Oregon, Kentuky, etc on those rare occasion when we visited
family, and do so using less gas than almost any thing else available, AND
it had enough battery range to meet our normal daily use.
>
> My wife finally filled the gas tank on it last week because she'd gotten
tired of it complaining about having low fuel, that's the first time this
year she put gas in it.
>
> It is only in the last year that the charging infrastructure has been
brought online that will allow me to drive, either east or west, and get
out of Arizona. There was no way I could forsee that happening this soon
back in 2017.
> I don't pretend to be psycic, I can only base my decissions on the facts
available at the time.  At the time, the Volt was the best option.
>
> It still a good option today, I'm not going to just throw it away because
there are better options.  The next EV I want isn't available yet, but
should be in a couple years.  Until the next vehicle I want is available we
will continue to use the Volt.  When we buy the next vehicle I will gift
the Volt to someone in my family that is still driving petroleum vehicles.
>
> I don't accept this rampant consumerism where you constantly buy the
latest and greatest and dispose of perfectly functional property that is
only a few years old.  That is bad for the environment.
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> While the Volt won't be able to support more than approx 1kw,
> that's enough to support my critical loads (fridge, freezer, .
> minisplit heat pump) plus a few lights, etc.

Turns out the DC/DC converter in the VOlt is over 200 amps at
12 volts so it can support almost 2 kW.  Compared to the typical
100 amps or so from most hybrids.  Though the Volt also draws
more overhead,  II think 500W.

Bob

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 4:53 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV
 wrote:
> >> A couple years after that my 'grandfathered' status runs out and I'll be 
> >> switched to their new
> >> 'solar customer' rates, at that point it will cost me over $800 a year 
> >> just for the privilege of
> >> being connected to the grid. iI figure it will be cheaper to buy some used 
> >> EV batteries and
> >> disconnect, which is what I plan to do.
> >
> > Of course I do not fully understand your situation. But it appears you
> > may have your PV paid for with the years of $.186 valued energy? The
>
> My solar array paid for itself years ago, took a little over 5 years to break 
> even.
>
> > $800/year surcharge overshadow the value of your production in the 
> > netmetering.
>
> Under the new rate schedule, I will have to pay approx $60 a month in 
> connection fees and taxes,
> plus they will no longer do 1:1 > stability of a grid connection is not to be 
> taken lightly. Will
> the
>
> Instead, I will have to pay retail for every kwh I pull from the grid and 
> they will pay me "export
> rate" for every kwh I push to the grid, this is on an instantaneous basis, 
> not trued up annually.
> The Export rate is higher than what I get now (~about 5 cents currently) and 
> the solar customer
> retail rate drops to 8 cents per kWh, but that still means I have to pay 3 
> cents per kwh to use the
> grid as storage.
>
> By doing some smart energy management-- only charging the EVs, running the 
> dryer, etc. when I have
> surplus solar -- I could potentially keep the bill down to around $800 
> annually.
> However, I figure it will cost me around $0.50 per day to bank power, that 
> plus the connection fees
> and taxes mean I will probably end up paying over $900 a year.
>
> I keep meaning to write a program to use my energy monitoring system to 
> calculate my actual costs,
> just haven't gotten around to it yet.
>
> >The stability of a grid connection is not to be taken lightly.
>
> I'm already building a second off-grid EV charging station, when I disconnect 
> from the grid I will
> buy a second inverter and set of batteries for my existing array, so I will 
> have two totally redundant off-grid power
> setups.
>
> I also have the Volt. The ability to use it as an emergency backup power 
> source was one of the
> reasons I choose it. While the Volt won't be able to support more than approx 
> 1kw, that's enough to
> support my critical loads (fridge, freezer, minisplit heat pump) plus a few 
> lights, etc.
>
> I'm also planning on buying one of the EV pickups that should be available in 
> the next couple
> years. That will give me a much more capable backup power system
>
> With 3-4 independant power systems, grid stability is a non-issue. Not that 
> the grid in my area is
> supper stable. We have had at least 4 minor power outages this summer and we 
> typically have a major
> outage (8+ hours) once every 5 years or so.
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Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

With the recall of over 100,000 BOLT batteries to be replaced,
There will be a HUGE source.  But I assume that they will
all be bulk sold to utilities who (hopefully) will apply them
to grid-leveling in support of renewables!
Bob

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 1:30 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV
 wrote:
>
> >> OOps, forgot. My home solar makes the EV charging free...
> >> (Well, no, with Grid tie it costs me 14 cents per kWh
> >> because that is what each kW is worth that I push back
> >> into the grid so using it to charge an EV is 14cents/kWh lost).
> >
> > Your utility seems to be giving you a GREAT deal.  Though it makes your
> > charging appear more expensive than with a lesser deal.  I buy at
> > $.10/kwh and sell at $.06/kwh which makes my charging $.06.  OTOH, my
> > utility is willing to buy (pay cash) for as much as I can manage to
> > produce.  Even at only $.06, I think my payback period is in the range
> > of 6-8 years.
>
> You both get great deals.  My electric coop only pays their "avoided costs" 
> for any surplus electricity (trued up annually), currently that is less than 
> 3 cents per kwh (2.6 the last time I checked).
> OTOH I'm still collecting on the PBI we agreed to when I first connected.  
> That pays 18.6 cents per kWh produced, regardless of whether I use it or push 
> it to the grid.  However, that will run out in less than 2 years.
>
> A couple years after that my 'grandfathered' status runs out and I'll be 
> switched to their new 'solar customer' rates, at that point it will cost me 
> over $800 a year just for the privilege of being connected to the grid.  iI 
> figure it will be cheaper to buy some used EV batteries and disconnect, which 
> is what I plan to do.
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Re: [EVDL] Cost of PV EV charging

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> produce.  Even at only $.06, I think my payback period is in the range
> of 6-8 years.

Sure beats the 100 year payback offered by savings banks at 1% interest.
I never liked the "payback" term for solar.  I say it is from day one when
one stopped consuming fossil fueled utility power.

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

>> ...by Electrify America, they said that they charge 31¢/kWh.

I have seen rates as low as 3 cents per kW
for EV charging off-peak for those  that sign up for a TOU plan
(includes much higher peak rates)

"Hydrogen Fool cell" is a reasonable moniker.

Wont this thread ever die?
OOps, forgot.  My home solar makes the EV charging free...
(Well, no, with Grid tie it costs me 14 cents per kWh
because that is what each kW is worth that I push back
into the grid so using it to charge an EV is 14cents/kWh lost).
Hummh...
bob

On Wed, Aug 25, 2021 at 1:29 AM Peter VanDerWal via EV
 wrote:
>
> > Also, since we are talking about the consumers perspective, I think you are 
> > making common mistake
> > in equating cost with price.
> >
> > Going back to your comment about cost of charging, that has to be based on 
> > price, not cost. At a
>
> Yes I know price and cost are two different things, however, the average 
> consumer considers them to be the same thing.
>
> While there are thousands of free charging stations (especially in 
> California), including DC fast charge stations, and while there are several 
> EV producers that offer free charging for several years with new EVs, we will 
> ignore those.
>
> For the charging stations that require payment, I have seen everywhere from 
> ~$0.20 to $0.55 per kwh, $0.31 seems to be an average price.  I suspect 
> competition will start driving the price down in some areas.
>
> Of course the majority of EV owners charge at home, where electricity is much 
> cheaper.  My solar has already paid for itself twice over, so my price/cost 
> is essentially zero.  I haven't paid an electric bill in 11 years.
>
> According to: https://cafcp.org/content/cost-refill
> The average price of hydrogen in California is $16.51 per kg, which can power 
> an FCEV "up to" 75 miles.  This price is heavily subsidized by California.  
> In addition the state pays on average $1.6 million of the $2 million, for 
> each station.
>
> Using the EPA rated range on my Chevy Bolt (the 'up to' range is much 
> higher), and using the $0.31 price per kwh, the price to go 75 miles is ~ 
> $6.80.
> For the average EV driver in California charging at home, and paying the 
> average price for electricity, it would price would be about $4.00.
> Then again, many places in California offer special rates for charging EVs 
> where it's even cheaper.
>
> So, the price for charging an EV ranges from infinitely cheaper to, perhaps 
> half the cost of Hydrogen.
>
> > And you haven’t said anything about cost of renewables, and isn’t that what 
> > we want?
>
> Since it requires 3x-4x as much electricity to power the FCEV, which means it 
> requires 3x-4x as much renewable infrastructure to fuel a FCEV.  Pretty sure 
> I have mentioned this several times already.
>
> >
> > I recently saw a chart of cost of renewables by geographic region in the 
> > U.S. that showed the cost
> > of renewables to be available for as low as 2 or 3¢/kWh.
> >
> > Plug Power (disclosure: a client of mine) has said publicly that they 
> > believe that they can produce
> > hydrogen within a few years that will be competitive with diesel, given 
> > access to 3¢ solar. They
> > are currently building a number of production plants.
> Most hydrogen fuel stations only pay 5-7¢ per kWh, so that won't make a 
> significant drop it the cost.
> The cost of fuel is more than just the price of the electricity, under normal 
> circumstances it would include recouping the cost of building the station, 
> labor costs, repair costs, etc.
> Currently California is paying 80% of the cost of installing the Hydrogen 
> fuel station, with local cities, etc. pay most of the remaining.
> I don't believe those costs are being reflected in the sales price of the 
> Hydrogen.  Since it's not sustainable for the state to continue to subsidize 
> the fuel stations much longer, I would expect to see and increase in the 
> price of Hydrogen.
> At this point most EV charging stations are being paid for by private 
> companies that expect to make a profit, which is why it costs so much to 
> charge.
>
> The cost of the fuel centers is 10-20 times as much for Hydrogen, and 
> additionally they would require 3-4 times as much renewable infrastructure.  
> There is no way Hydrogen will EVER compete with the price of selling 
> electricity directly without subsidies.
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Re: [EVDL] EV Digest, Vol 106, Issue 27

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

One more time...

Regfen is only of value when you have to stop and you
finally have to give up all that kinetic energy.

Coaasting makes best sense by all measures of physics.
Regen when NOT needed is inefficient.  Maybe you only get back
90% from energy to electric then 90% efficiency to charge the battery.
then 90% conversion from battery to electricity
then 90% from the electricity to drive the motor.
90% * 90% * 90% * 90% is only about 65% efficient compared
to 100% for coasting (of course, then all the drag, road, etc losses)
End-Of-Story..

On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 6:24 PM Justin Kenny via EV  wrote:
>
> I would be curious to see some real world comparison/results doing a drive
> like that coasting as much as possible vs. using full regen. I used to
> drive a 2011 Leaf, and I struggled to get more than 4mi/kWH driving as
> efficiently as I could (minimizing regen by coasting) with no A/C, etc.,
> yet now I drive a Model 3 and I find it almost impossible to get less than
> 4mi/kWH with all the comforts available and driving like a maniac ;)
> Clearly the vehicle's efficiency has a way bigger impact, but of course it
> is probably still better for the environment to be reusing a 10 year old EV.
>
> - Justin
>
>
> > --
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Tue, 24 Aug 2021 19:06:15 + (UTC)
> > From: Lawrence Rhodes 
> > To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] Regen Efficiency vs Coasting
> > Message-ID: <608585047.1164471.1629831975...@mail.yahoo.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> >
> > When you are at the top of a hill after the climb the best way to descend
> > is to select no regen until you reach the speed limit and then use regen to
> > keep your vehicle at the speed limit. My Leaf has 6 regen selections. N for
> > no regen, D for some, Deco for more, B and Beco for the most. Using these
> > settings I can in a way coast and not use my mechanical brakes for long
> > distances down hill. EVs are never in neutral unless you have a conversion
> > with a clutch. If the vehicle moves the motor turns. That is why you can't
> > flat tow an EV. So the most efficient way down a hill is No regen until you
> > are in fear of a speeding ticket. Lawrence Rhodes
> >
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all - EV charging in Alaska

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> One of the advantages to an EV is that it takes me about 20 seconds to
> hook up the charger cord to the recharging port and walk away.  I'm on
> 120v AC 12 amps.  I come back in the morning or whenever and I have
> more range on my pack.

Related Story of being a new EV purchaser:

My son did a lock-stock-and barrel move to a new career in Alaska, arriving
with nothing but a rolley bag and a backpack. His job location was 160 miles
away from Anchorage (the only nearby city for hundreds of miles).
After checking in to his new job (rental car for a week, but otherwise NO
CARS available for the next several weeks due to tourists).  It was tough,
 walking miles to work..

But then he flew back to Anchorage, bought a BOLT EV and drove the 160
miles back to his new home.  Only to find that his apartment outdoor outlets
(For block heaters) ALL had ground faults AND the only EV charger in his new
area and near its airport was out of commissioon with no prognosis.

He was down to 50 miles remaining and beginning to worry.

He bought a 25' extension cord from Home Depot, and plugged it into an
ouitlet in nis living room and tossed it over the balcony to his car below.
Overnight he picked up 42 miles (bringing it up to 90 mi).  With his new job,
and walmart all being within 3 miles of each other, he figures he will be
back to full charge in only a few more days.

Try that with an FCEV and or an ICE during a gas shortage.
Bob

> There is no more driving to and standing in
> line to fill an ICE tank with gasoline (or hydrogen).
>
> Range anxiety has disappeared like a gaseous discharge in the wind.
>
> If a hydrogen station were available nearby and an EV and a HFCEV were
> available of equal value, would I jump ship to buy a HFCEV?  To do so,
> the hydrogen fuel would have to be a lot cheaper.
>
> I could see where the trucking industry might be onboard at some
> point.  The technology might drift down to the ICE level the same way
> diesel drifted from trucks to ICE vehicles during the embargoes.  But
> first the trucks have to adapt to hydrogen.
>
> Anyway, I'm not seeing a hydrogen future anytime soon.
>
> A hydrogen economy seven years away???  It might be if EV development
> were to be at a stand still.
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Re: [EVDL] electric riding mowers? - Using my Prius cells?

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Ah ha!
Finally an app for my old prius batteries.  They  are bricks of 6 cells
at something like 6 AH, but internally connected in series so yiu cannot
make a 12v battery..  You can make an 8.4V or 16.8v battery, but
not 12.  But with 48v to play with, I guess I can use 5 bricks for 42v
or maybe 6 for 50..4v.

And parallel bricks to get to the current I need.  Though, I bet
they have sensing at the 24 and 36v taps to control charging and
those taps will not exist.  Shucks.
Bob

On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 1:34 PM EVDL Administrator via EV
 wrote:
>
> Many of the GE Elec-Trak electric lawn tractors from the 1970s are still
> around and doing yeoman duty.  Buying a clean used one should cost MUCH less
> than $3000.  Recently an acquaintance of mine from around here sold his ER8-
> 36 small electric rider mower for $500 on EBAY.  All it needed was new
> batteries.
>
> The models to look for are probably the smaller, simpler ones:
>
> GE ER8-36 / Wheel Horse A-65 / New Idea R36
> Wheel Horse E-60, E-81
> GE E8 / New Idea EGT80
> GE E10 . New Idea EGT100
>
> The larger models will also serve (the E15 seems to be the most common):
>
> GE E12 / E12M / New Idea EGT-120
> GE E14 / Wheel Horse B-145
> GE E15 / New Idea EGT-150
> GE E16
> GE E20 / Wheel Horse C-185 / New Idea EGT-200
> GE I5
>
> If you're not in too much of a hurry, I suggest joining the Elec-Trak
> discussion list, and watching for someone to put one up for sale.
>
> cosmos.phy.tufts.edu/mailman/listinfo/elec-trak
>
> I got an invalid certificate warning on that website just now.  It seems OK,
> but I'll ask on the list today.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  Consultant: someone who borrows your watch, tells you what
>  time it is, pockets the watch, and sends you a bill for it.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> Meanwhile, Exxon has a graph showing the peaking of world oil supply
> around 2040.  May we live in interesting times.

It is no longer SUPPLY that will peak, but DEMAND.
For a century we worried about peak oil as the peak of oil SUPPLY
leading to explosive prices and dwindling supply.

Now it is the opposite.,  It is not supply or reserves that peak but it is
the declining demand for oil that will mark peak-oil and the end to that
investment.  We should be close to that now as we should stop burning
the stuff.



On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 2:03 PM Peter Eckhoff via EV  wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> The Camry was a **test** vehicle with three carbon wound hydrogen storage
> tanks.  The article used Bar instead of PSI.  Engineers and Scientists may
> know that one Bar is 14.7 pounds per square inch at sea level but the
> general public understands PSI a whole lot better.  700 bar works out to be
> 5 tons per square inch.  The Plastic Kinetics YouTube video highlights a
> very interesting development and I hope it works out for them.
>
> The 2,000 hours came from Bill Moore, Editor of EV World.  He attended a
> hydrogen fuel cell conference back in the early 2000.  The estimates he
> reported on had a wide span of durability but he came away with the
> impression that "2,000 hours" encapsulated a number of ranges.  Most of
> that had to do with natural contaminants.  Air is cleaner in some parts of
> the country than others.  I see where Toyota is touting the Mirai has a
> 150,000 to 200,000 range before the fuel stack needs to be replaced.  Musk
> is saying the Tesla packs are lasting 300K to 500K miles.
>
> I understand your love for HFCEVs but from some of the responses here, a
> lot more development has to take place and then an infrastructure build
> out.  I understand large corporations wanting to push hydrogen.  It makes
> sense - to them.  Right now, a HFCEV has too many limitations for my
> transportation needs.
>
> Meanwhile, Exxon has a graph showing the peaking of world oil supply around
> 2040.  May we live in interesting times.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:20 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > Gee, a lot of incorrect stuff to reply to.
> >
> > Not incorrect, but you think that PSI is less confusing to use than bar?
> > Then it’s 10,000 PSI. As far as your description of what it is - frankly, I
> > hadn’t a clue what you were talking about. Your numbers seem to be
> > confusing a point.
> >
> > Manufacturing defects in a Camry? I’m not sure what you are talking about.
> > No Camrys involved. Tanks get tested. If you are trying to imply that they
> > are dangerous, well so is everything. Risks get managed. Some get managed
> > better than others. Batteries have their own risks, too, as does any other
> > energy storage mechanism.
> >
> > Fuel cell lifetime of 2,000 hours? Care to provide a source? It’s just not
> > true.
> >
> > Electrolysis not very efficient? What do *you* consider “not very
> > efficient”? What do you consider acceptable efficiency?
> >
> > Hydrogen leakage through pipes? What pipes are you talking about? And the
> > basis for your assumption that it leaks because it is small?
> >
> > Tesla battery packs? Yes, very good. Million mile goal? Happy to talk
> > about goals. 100% green hydrogen within 10-15 years. Million mile goal? I
> > wish them luck. I own stock in the company.
> >
> > Recycling? Virtually none is happening now. That’s a lot of toxic waste.
> > Fuel cells - 99% recycled is what I’ve heard, far exceeding the Tesla goal,
> > today.
> >
> > What to buy? If a BEV best meets your needs - excellent! I hope you get
> > the best one for *you*, and hope that its a Tesla. But don’t make any
> > decisions based on wrong information, and on the fuel cell side, there
> > seems to be a lot of that that you are considering.
> >
> > BTW, you mentioned natural gas - if you are in California, your hydrogen
> > transportation fuel is likely *not* to be derived from fossil.
> >
> > - Mark
> >
> > Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> >
> > > On Aug 15, 2021, at 8:22 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Numbers help.  For instance, an experimental Toyota Camry with three
> > > carbon wound hydrogen tanks was filled to "700 bar" with hydrogen for
> > > a range of 300 miles.  Nobody who wants to convey pressure to the
> > > general public uses bars.  It is always PSI.  700 bar translates to 5
> > > tons per square inch in a car that weighs less than 2 tons.   One tank
> > > manufacturing defect and the Camry goes "ballistic" in some direction.
> > >
> > > If hydrogen is made from natural gas, there is always a little CO
> > > included in the Hydrogen.  That over time corrodes the Fuel Cell.  The
> > > rough rule of thumb was that the fuel cell would last "2,000 hours".
> > > At 30 mph, that's 60K miles.  YMMV  That leaves electrolysis which is
> > > very inefficient.
> > >
> > > Then there is the transport of hydrogen to refueling stations.
> > > Hydrogen seeps 

Re: [EVDL] electric riding mowers? =Ryobi variable speed?

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

THe promo movie says you just set the cruise control and go.
But I dont want fixed speed (mowing), I will be using this mostly for
transportation around my yard and assume there will be variable
pedal speed.Is this a wrong assumption?

Sounds like it is an on/off accellerator???

On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 6:41 AM Pestka Dennis  wrote:
>
> Bob;
>
> I purchased the 100Ahr Ryobi about a year ago, and I love it. It does have 
> lead acid batteries as you stated, but they are AGM with no maintenance. Your 
> 1/10 acre and hills will be a piece of cake for it. I have about 3 acres to 
> cut and I use it along with my wife on a zero turn. I can cut an hour with 
> some hills and flat area's, and it doesn't even use half of the range. One of 
> the main reasons I purchase it was for the bagging attachment. It is very 
> simple to take off and on, and works really well. A have a lot of trees and 
> it get a real workout in the fall picking up leaves. Tractor comes with 38" 
> mower, charger, headlights, cruise control, and even a USB plug for your cell 
> phone. It has a very tight turning radius, and an easy height adjuster for 
> the mower deck. I purchased mine through Home Depot, and they delivered it 
> right to my house.
>
> Dennis
> Elsberry, MO
>
> ________
> From: EV  on behalf of Robert Bruninga via EV 
> 
> Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2021 3:01 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> Cc: Robert Bruninga 
> Subject: [EVDL] electric riding mowers?
>
> OK, I'm ready for an electric riding lawn mower.  My grass area is very
> small, probably under a Tenth acre or less, but mostly I need it for getting
> around on my yard which has a variation in elevation of 30' and sll kinds
> of terrain obstacles (and basically I can no longer walk more than a few
> feet without needing to sit.
>
> I see Ryobi and cub cadet both have models thare are leadacid. 48 and
> 56 volt models.. but I thought we would be in a time of lighter weight
> lithium.  Though I admit, for my lazy maintenance record, I'd be more
> comfortable with lead acid probably.?
>
> Bob
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

But then there is still the 30% loss in inefficiency in all the heat loss in
 compressing the hydrogen into tanks. (and hoping it wont explode).
Bob

On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:39 PM Michael Ross via EV  wrote:
>
> From the WIKI:
> "Considering the industrial production of hydrogen, and using current best
> processes for water electrolysis (PEM or alkaline electrolysis) which have
> an effective electrical efficiency of 70–80%"
> I actually thought 70% was as good as it gets, but  they think in another
> 10 years it might be in the upper 90%'s.
>
> I recall that the combustion of hydrogen was also pretty lossy. SO a lot of
> inefficiency coming and going with H. I will try to find where I got that
> idea and write back. The discussion was to the effect that combining O2 and
> H2 could never be better than some ceiling %.
>
> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 3:20 PM Mark Abramowitz via EV 
> wrote:
>
> > Gee, a lot of incorrect stuff to reply to.
> >
> > Not incorrect, but you think that PSI is less confusing to use than bar?
> > Then it’s 10,000 PSI. As far as your description of what it is - frankly, I
> > hadn’t a clue what you were talking about. Your numbers seem to be
> > confusing a point.
> >
> > Manufacturing defects in a Camry? I’m not sure what you are talking about.
> > No Camrys involved. Tanks get tested. If you are trying to imply that they
> > are dangerous, well so is everything. Risks get managed. Some get managed
> > better than others. Batteries have their own risks, too, as does any other
> > energy storage mechanism.
> >
> > Fuel cell lifetime of 2,000 hours? Care to provide a source? It’s just not
> > true.
> >
> > Electrolysis not very efficient? What do *you* consider “not very
> > efficient”? What do you consider acceptable efficiency?
> >
> > Hydrogen leakage through pipes? What pipes are you talking about? And the
> > basis for your assumption that it leaks because it is small?
> >
> > Tesla battery packs? Yes, very good. Million mile goal? Happy to talk
> > about goals. 100% green hydrogen within 10-15 years. Million mile goal? I
> > wish them luck. I own stock in the company.
> >
> > Recycling? Virtually none is happening now. That’s a lot of toxic waste.
> > Fuel cells - 99% recycled is what I’ve heard, far exceeding the Tesla goal,
> > today.
> >
> > What to buy? If a BEV best meets your needs - excellent! I hope you get
> > the best one for *you*, and hope that its a Tesla. But don’t make any
> > decisions based on wrong information, and on the fuel cell side, there
> > seems to be a lot of that that you are considering.
> >
> > BTW, you mentioned natural gas - if you are in California, your hydrogen
> > transportation fuel is likely *not* to be derived from fossil.
> >
> > - Mark
> >
> > Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
> >
> > > On Aug 15, 2021, at 8:22 AM, Peter Eckhoff via EV 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Numbers help.  For instance, an experimental Toyota Camry with three
> > > carbon wound hydrogen tanks was filled to "700 bar" with hydrogen for
> > > a range of 300 miles.  Nobody who wants to convey pressure to the
> > > general public uses bars.  It is always PSI.  700 bar translates to 5
> > > tons per square inch in a car that weighs less than 2 tons.   One tank
> > > manufacturing defect and the Camry goes "ballistic" in some direction.
> > >
> > > If hydrogen is made from natural gas, there is always a little CO
> > > included in the Hydrogen.  That over time corrodes the Fuel Cell.  The
> > > rough rule of thumb was that the fuel cell would last "2,000 hours".
> > > At 30 mph, that's 60K miles.  YMMV  That leaves electrolysis which is
> > > very inefficient.
> > >
> > > Then there is the transport of hydrogen to refueling stations.
> > > Hydrogen seeps through pipes because it is such a small atom.  If it
> > > didn't, then you have a whole lot of new infrastructure to build.
> > > Tanker trucks are another story.  They are capacity limited.
> > >
> > > I keep looking for genuine breakthroughs and I am not finding them.
> > > Most of what I read is hype.
> > >
> > > Meanwhile, a Tesla pack lasts from  300,000 to 500,000 miles with
> > > Musk's goal of 1 million miles.  A million miles is 20K miles per year
> > > for 50 years.  Basically, a lifetime of driving on one pack.
> > >
> > > Tesla has announced a recycling plan where they will be recycling 92
> > > to 97% of a pack.
> > >
> > > There are too many basic issues with hydrogen fuel cells that have yet
> > > to be resolved in order to compete with a BEV.
> > >
> > > I'm considering purchasing another EV and a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle
> > > is not on that list of choices for a lot of fundamental reasons.  I
> > > have not seen anything in your arguments to dissuade me from a BEV or
> > > point me to a viable HFCEV vehicle.
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 1:56 AM Mark Abramowitz via EV
> > >>  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I’m not sure what you want numbers on, but a point can certainly be
> > made without them, 

Re: [EVDL] electric riding mowers?

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I have the 56 volt self propelled EGO mower and was very impressed
until the 3rd year or
so when the battery wont charge and all I get is blinking red lights.
The replacement
cost for just the battery is over $300.  Is this usual to wear out tht fast?

My mowing area is maybe a gtenth of an acre and my mowing need is modest.
 I always completed it on one charge
though did get down to blinking red maybe a half dozen times.

But am loath to put $300 more into it, not knowing if it is the
battery or the charger.
To check, I disasembld the battery and lightly charged up any low
cells to match the
others (there was no significant mismatch anyway), but still the
charger wont charge it.

Bob

On Sun, Aug 15, 2021 at 12:06 PM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
>
> I've been using a self propel Ego mower on about 1/2 acre of grass for
> the last 4 years. They have just come out with a riding version that
> uses their 56v ARC Lithium batteries, but it's pricy.
>
> I've been very happy with all of the chargers/batteries/lawn tools from
> EGO with the EXCEPTION of the self propel unit on the lawnmower. (With a
> 1/2 acre lawn, I've burned through 5 self propel units --all repaired or
> replaced under the Ego 5 year warranty...no other issues with the rest
> of the mower, but still, not impressed by the quality of the self propel
> units.  My lawn size really is in the ride-on category, so I'm working
> the heck out of that little self propel mower.)
>
> If it wasn't for the issues with the self propel unit, I'd recommend the
> Ego ride on without reservations even without having tried it out myself
> just based on all of my good experiences with just about everything else
> Ego puts out.  There warranty support has been great, but I don't know
> how that would work with a larger ride-on mower.
>
> Jay
>
>
>
> On 8/15/21 4:01 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> > OK, I'm ready for an electric riding lawn mower.  My grass area is very
> > small, probably under a Tenth acre or less, but mostly I need it for getting
> > around on my yard which has a variation in elevation of 30' and sll kinds
> > of terrain obstacles (and basically I can no longer walk more than a few
> > feet without needing to sit.
> >
> > I see Ryobi and cub cadet both have models thare are leadacid. 48 and
> > 56 volt models.. but I thought we would be in a time of lighter weight
> > lithium.  Though I admit, for my lazy maintenance record, I'd be more
> > comfortable with lead acid probably.?
> >
> > Bob
> > ___
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> >
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[EVDL] electric riding mowers?

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

OK, I'm ready for an electric riding lawn mower.  My grass area is very
small, probably under a Tenth acre or less, but mostly I need it for getting
around on my yard which has a variation in elevation of 30' and sll kinds
of terrain obstacles (and basically I can no longer walk more than a few
feet without needing to sit.

I see Ryobi and cub cadet both have models thare are leadacid. 48 and
56 volt models.. but I thought we would be in a time of lighter weight
lithium.  Though I admit, for my lazy maintenance record, I'd be more
comfortable with lead acid probably.?

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> You’ve completely ignored what I said - did you even read it?

Yep, every word of it.  Yes of course, hydrogen will have a role to play,
but there is no getting around the fact that using Renewables to make
electricity to drive cars is 10 times more efficient to drive a BEV
directly (5% loss from wind/solar to the car.) compared to the 50%
energy loss in making hydrogen from the same electricity.

That ten times inefficiency is what makes hydrogen unsuitable as
a general replacement for cars.  It is just centralized big (oil)
companies continuing to push their centralized big company
monopolies and control of distribution and perpetuating their
TANK model.

With 400 mile EV's now (for those that need it) and 150 mile
EV's for those that don't, there is no need for the huge wastefullness
of hydrogen (except for maybe long haul pre-developed trucking
between major distribution centers. and ONLY when we get to the
5-times oversuppply of wind/solar such that there is FREE electricity
to dump into hydrogen on peak days instead of curtailing it.

The high cost and inefficiency of FCEV's make little  sense for
general use.

Bob

> As far as the economics, not only will it not take a miracle to make “green” 
> hydrogen more economical than fossil hydrogen, but at least one company is 
> building production plants that they say will make it competitive in cost, 
> and then improve it further. The technology is improving quickly, and as the 
> cost of renewables drop, the production costs also drop, as that is the 
> biggest driver of costs.
>
> As far as your comment of being ahead with electricity being stored in a 
> battery, I think your looking at it the wrong way in two (if not more) 
> important ways (and I won’t even get into battery production and recycling 
> issues that don’t get taken into account).  First, a battery doesn’t meet all 
> duty cycle needs, which is why for some uses you need hydrogen even if you 
> prefer batteries. The alternative is fossil fuel combustion in an IC engine. 
> That’s why most of see fuels cell electrics as complementary to BEVs, not 
> either/or. Secondly, and maybe more to your point, electricity, like 
> hydrogen, gets produced in many ways. The GREET model, which is generally 
> accepted as the gold standard for calculating GHG comparisons, If I’m 
> remembering correctly, shows both BEVs and FCEVs reducing GHGs as compared to 
> fossil combustion ICEs, no matter the input energy.
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
> > On Aug 13, 2021, at 5:14 AM, Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
> >
> > Here is an article published today on "Clean Hydrogen". (Not so clean, 
> > according to the article. surprise surprise )
> > https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/12/clean-fuel-blue-hydrogen-coal-study
> >
> > From _all_ I've read, even in Scientific American, you are way ahead simply 
> > using plain old electricity instead of hydrogen, if you wish to curtail 
> > climate change. Electricity for running a vehicle is much more economic, 
> > and is far more ecological than hydrogen. At least for the foreseeable 
> > future.
> >
> > All but the tiniest fraction of hydrogen produced these days comes from 
> > fossil fuel. This is because it is by far the most economic way to produce 
> > hydrogen. Even so, it is _still_ far more expensive to run a car with the 
> > cheapest H2 than run it directly with electricity stored in batteries.
> >
> > Perhaps someone, somewhere, will invent some miraculous possess that will 
> > turn the tables completely, but that simply hasn't happened yet.
> >
> > The US government is going to throw another $8bn down this black hole. If 
> > $8bn isn't enough to buy that miracle cure, then perhaps it will be time to 
> > give H2 the last rites and finally move on.
> >
> > Bill D.
> >
> >> On 8/13/2021 7:11 PM, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
> >> Only looking at what you posted, you draw a very false conclusion from the 
> >> data.
> >>
> >> You’ve connected fossil hydrogen with that going into a car’s tank. Well, 
> >> yes, you can do that, much like you use fossil gas or coal to produce 
> >> electricity to run a BEV. But most hydrogen in transportation is not 
> >> fossil-derived, and the entire industry is moving towards 100% 
> >> “decarbonized” hydrogen, with most believing that “green” hydrogen will be 
> >> everywhere very soon.
> >>
> >> I haven’t looked at the “blue hydrogen” data, so can’t critique it, but 
> >> the use of colors really confusing things because if you are looking for 
> >> GHG impacts, the most direct measure is a CI score.
> >>
> >> Many incentives are there in transportation for 100% Renewable H2, and 
> >> while I get 90% renewable hydrogen when I fill my fuel cell electric 
> >> vehicle (they *are* electric), I look at the grid numbers and see 
> >> renewable numbers of as low as 11%, depending on the time of day. The rest 
> >> is fossil.
> >>
> >> So who is putting out more GHGs?
> >>
> >> This is the 

Re: [EVDL] hydrogen isn't green, after all

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

One cannot look just at grid numbers for renewables for EV's any more
than one can claim their
hydrogen comes from renewables.  Survey's have shown that 85% of EV
drivers either have solar
or subscribe for 100% renewable electricity.

Of course, by the same token, it is great that you buy only renewables
generated hydrogen.
But the process is so inefficient that it robs the rest of us of that
renewable energy to elimionae
worse fossil fuel systems.  Something near 50% when the cost of
compressing the hydrogen
into a tank is included.  FAR from a good idea when renewable electric
generation for cars
from solar wind, and hydro approach 95% efficiency..

And the difference between 50% and 95% is not close to 50%, it is
colower to 90% since
the 5% losses at 95% efficiency is TEN times less than the losses at 50%

bob
On Fri, Aug 13, 2021 at 3:31 AM Mark Abramowitz via EV
 wrote:
>
> Only looking at what you posted, you draw a very false conclusion from the 
> data.
>
> You’ve connected fossil hydrogen with that going into a car’s tank. Well, 
> yes, you can do that, much like you use fossil gas or coal to produce 
> electricity to run a BEV. But most hydrogen in transportation is not 
> fossil-derived, and the entire industry is moving towards 100% “decarbonized” 
> hydrogen, with most believing that “green” hydrogen will be everywhere very 
> soon.
>
> I haven’t looked at the “blue hydrogen” data, so can’t critique it, but the 
> use of colors really confusing things because if you are looking for GHG 
> impacts, the most direct measure is a CI score.
>
> Many incentives are there in transportation for 100% Renewable H2, and while 
> I get 90% renewable hydrogen when I fill my fuel cell electric vehicle (they 
> *are* electric), I look at the grid numbers and see renewable numbers of as 
> low as 11%, depending on the time of day. The rest is fossil.
>
> So who is putting out more GHGs?
>
> This is the problem with analysis that don’t analyze the real world as most 
> would view the data.
>
> - Mark
>
> Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone
>
> > On Aug 12, 2021, at 2:20 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> >
> > For Many, Hydrogen Is the Fuel of the Future. New Research Raises Doubts.
> > https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/climate/hydrogen-fuel-natural-gas-pollution.html
> >
> > ...
> > The main stumbling block: Most hydrogen used today is extracted from 
> > natural gas in a process that requires a lot of energy and emits vast 
> > amounts of carbon dioxide. Producing natural gas also releases methane, a 
> > particularly potent greenhouse gas.
> > ...
> > And while the natural gas industry has proposed capturing that carbon 
> > dioxide — creating what it promotes as emissions-free, “blue” hydrogen — 
> > even that fuel still emits more across its entire supply chain than simply 
> > burning natural gas, according to the paper, published Thursday in the 
> > Energy Science & Engineering journal by researchers from Cornell and 
> > Stanford Universities.
> > ...
> > The researchers assumed that 3.5 percent of the gas drilled from the ground 
> > leaks into the atmosphere, an assumption that draws on mounting research 
> > that has found that drilling for natural gas emits far more methane than 
> > previously known.
> >
> > They also took into account the natural gas required to power the carbon 
> > capture technology. In all, they found that the greenhouse gas footprint of 
> > blue hydrogen was more than 20 percent greater than burning natural gas or 
> > coal for heat.
> > ...
> > Jack Brouwer, director of the National Fuel Cell Research Center at the 
> > University of California, Irvine, said that hydrogen would ultimately need 
> > to be made using renewable energy to produce what the industry calls green 
> > hydrogen, which uses renewable energy to split water into its constituent 
> > parts, hydrogen and oxygen. That, he said, would eliminate the fossil and 
> > the methane leaks.
> > ...
> > Today, very little hydrogen is green, because the process involved — 
> > electrolyzing water to separate hydrogen atoms from oxygen — is hugely 
> > energy intensive. In most places, there simply isn’t enough renewable 
> > energy to produce vast amounts of green hydrogen. (Although if the world 
> > does start to produce excess renewable energy, converting it to hydrogen 
> > would be one way to store it.)
> > ...
> >
> > ---
> >
> > I'm glad to see this published mainstream. People don't seem to think about 
> > the source for hydrogen, only about the the aspect of filling a tank in a 
> > few minutes and driving off. Long live EVs !!!
> >
> > Peri
> >
> > << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> >
> > ___
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> > LIST INFO: 

Re: [EVDL] Having a Bolt in extreme cold - What about it's EVSE?

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Nevermoind.  I found the answer.
The BOLT maxes ouit at 12 amps on 120v and no way to change it.
bob

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 7:14 PM Robert Bruninga  wrote:
>
> What is the 120v EVSE like that comes with the Bolt?
> Does it allow 16 amp operation on a 20 amp outlet?
> Is that setting made in the EVSE or in the car.
>
> It would seem to me to be an EVSE function because the
> EVSE does not know what it is plugged into and you wouldnt
> want an EV to ask for 16 amps when the EVSE is plugged into
> only a 15 amp circuit.
>
> BOb
>
> On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 4:02 PM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
> >
> > My guess is that it would work fine at 120 volt charging (but your
> > charging speed may be slow, as alot of the power would be going to
> > condition the battery.)
> >
> > Generally, the only thing in the car that sees the 120v is the battery
> > charger (taking the 120 volts up to the 3-4 hundred volts the battery uses.
> >
> > Everything else in the car runs off of either the HV battery system, or
> > the 12v accessory system (which is powered by a DC2DC converter from the
> > HV battery system.
> >
> > So as far as the car is concerned, the voltage of the input charging
> > system does not matter.
> >
> > The only issue I see is that at 120 volts, you can only get 1-1.5 kW
> > into the vehicle, and if the battery heater takes 1.8 kW, continuously
> > it may not be able to keep the battery heated without discharging the
> > battery.
> >
> > For this reason there may be a software lock that prevents cabin heating
> > or battery heating when plugged into 120 voltsbut I kind of doubt it.
> >
> > Jay
> >
> > On 7/30/21 3:26 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> > > Thanks!
> > > My biggest concern is whether battery management works on 120v charging.
> > > My son who is looking at an EV in Alaska will be in rentals with only
> > > access to 120v and without owning the outlet might not be able to
> > > switch to 240v.
> > >
> > > So, does BMS work on 120v?  What about "remote start" (compartment 
> > > conditioning?
> > >
> > > Bob
> > > On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 3:19 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV
> > >  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> If you leave it plugged in, I suspect it would do ok, maybe 20% range 
> > >> reduction?
> > >>
> > >>  From what I've read, if the car is plugged in and the battery 
> > >> temperature drops below 37, or climbs above 95, the battery thermal 
> > >> management system will turn on.
> > >>
> > >> So, as long as it isn't so cold that the 1.8kw heater can't keep up, the 
> > >> battery temp should stay around 37 degrees.
> > >>
> > >> I know that here in AZ, if I leave my Chevys plugged in, I will 
> > >> occasionally here the cooling systems run to keep the batteries cool.  I 
> > >> haven't noticed them doing this when not plugged in.  Then again, where 
> > >> I live it only occasionaly get's above 95.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
> > >>
> > >> July 29, 2021 11:26 PM, "Robert Bruninga via EV"  
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Is buying a BOLT in Alaska a good idea? In Anchorage for example.
> > >>>
> > >>> Anchorage is the biggest city in Alaska, there is little else to do 
> > >>> within
> > >>> the 250 mile radius of the Bolt, and adventures can come in the summer
> > >>> spring and fall.. Just stay home iin the winter!
> > >>>
> > >>> At least an electric is not somenint that has to "start" in -40F, it 
> > >>> just
> > >>> runs
> > >>> THoughts?
> > >>> Bob
> > >>> ___
> > >>> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> > >>> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> > >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> > >> 

Re: [EVDL] Having a Bolt in extreme cold - What about it's EVSE?

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

What is the 120v EVSE like that comes with the Bolt?
Does it allow 16 amp operation on a 20 amp outlet?
Is that setting made in the EVSE or in the car.

It would seem to me to be an EVSE function because the
EVSE does not know what it is plugged into and you wouldnt
want an EV to ask for 16 amps when the EVSE is plugged into
only a 15 amp circuit.

BOb

On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 4:02 PM Jay Summet via EV  wrote:
>
> My guess is that it would work fine at 120 volt charging (but your
> charging speed may be slow, as alot of the power would be going to
> condition the battery.)
>
> Generally, the only thing in the car that sees the 120v is the battery
> charger (taking the 120 volts up to the 3-4 hundred volts the battery uses.
>
> Everything else in the car runs off of either the HV battery system, or
> the 12v accessory system (which is powered by a DC2DC converter from the
> HV battery system.
>
> So as far as the car is concerned, the voltage of the input charging
> system does not matter.
>
> The only issue I see is that at 120 volts, you can only get 1-1.5 kW
> into the vehicle, and if the battery heater takes 1.8 kW, continuously
> it may not be able to keep the battery heated without discharging the
> battery.
>
> For this reason there may be a software lock that prevents cabin heating
> or battery heating when plugged into 120 volts....but I kind of doubt it.
>
> Jay
>
> On 7/30/21 3:26 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> > Thanks!
> > My biggest concern is whether battery management works on 120v charging.
> > My son who is looking at an EV in Alaska will be in rentals with only
> > access to 120v and without owning the outlet might not be able to
> > switch to 240v.
> >
> > So, does BMS work on 120v?  What about "remote start" (compartment 
> > conditioning?
> >
> > Bob
> > On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 3:19 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV
> >  wrote:
> >>
> >> If you leave it plugged in, I suspect it would do ok, maybe 20% range 
> >> reduction?
> >>
> >>  From what I've read, if the car is plugged in and the battery temperature 
> >> drops below 37, or climbs above 95, the battery thermal management system 
> >> will turn on.
> >>
> >> So, as long as it isn't so cold that the 1.8kw heater can't keep up, the 
> >> battery temp should stay around 37 degrees.
> >>
> >> I know that here in AZ, if I leave my Chevys plugged in, I will 
> >> occasionally here the cooling systems run to keep the batteries cool.  I 
> >> haven't noticed them doing this when not plugged in.  Then again, where I 
> >> live it only occasionaly get's above 95.
> >>
> >>
> >> My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
> >>
> >> July 29, 2021 11:26 PM, "Robert Bruninga via EV"  wrote:
> >>
> >>> Is buying a BOLT in Alaska a good idea? In Anchorage for example.
> >>>
> >>> Anchorage is the biggest city in Alaska, there is little else to do within
> >>> the 250 mile radius of the Bolt, and adventures can come in the summer
> >>> spring and fall.. Just stay home iin the winter!
> >>>
> >>> At least an electric is not somenint that has to "start" in -40F, it just
> >>> runs
> >>> THoughts?
> >>> Bob
> >>> ___
> >>> Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
> >>> No other addresses in TO and CC fields
> >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub
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> >
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Re: [EVDL] Having a Bolt in extreme cold

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Thanks!
My biggest concern is whether battery management works on 120v charging.
My son who is looking at an EV in Alaska will be in rentals with only
access to 120v and without owning the outlet might not be able to
switch to 240v.

So, does BMS work on 120v?  What about "remote start" (compartment conditioning?

Bob
On Fri, Jul 30, 2021 at 3:19 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV
 wrote:
>
> If you leave it plugged in, I suspect it would do ok, maybe 20% range 
> reduction?
>
> From what I've read, if the car is plugged in and the battery temperature 
> drops below 37, or climbs above 95, the battery thermal management system 
> will turn on.
>
> So, as long as it isn't so cold that the 1.8kw heater can't keep up, the 
> battery temp should stay around 37 degrees.
>
> I know that here in AZ, if I leave my Chevys plugged in, I will occasionally 
> here the cooling systems run to keep the batteries cool.  I haven't noticed 
> them doing this when not plugged in.  Then again, where I live it only 
> occasionaly get's above 95.
>
>
> My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
>
> July 29, 2021 11:26 PM, "Robert Bruninga via EV"  wrote:
>
> > Is buying a BOLT in Alaska a good idea? In Anchorage for example.
> >
> > Anchorage is the biggest city in Alaska, there is little else to do within
> > the 250 mile radius of the Bolt, and adventures can come in the summer
> > spring and fall.. Just stay home iin the winter!
> >
> > At least an electric is not somenint that has to "start" in -40F, it just
> > runs
> > THoughts?
> > Bob
> > ___
> > Address messages to ev@lists.evdl.org
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[EVDL] Having a Bolt in extreme cold

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Is buying a BOLT in Alaska a good idea?  In Anchorage for example.

Anchorage is the biggest city in Alaska, there is little else to do within
the 250 mile radius of the Bolt, and adventures can come in the summer
spring and fall..  Just stay home iin the winter!

At least an electric is not somenint that has to "start" in -40F, it just
runs
THoughts?
Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Electric mower - small question

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Curious.
All corded mowers I assume used AC brushed motors and hence
would work just fine on DC as well.  But I assume running such
universal motors on DC is more efficient than running a universal
brushed motor on AC.

So is there an efficiency factor?  If the universal AS/DC brushed motor
ran fine on 110 VAC, then I wonder what is the equivalent pure DC
voltage to give the same performance?  150V, 110V, 90V, 70V?
etc
bob

On Tue, Jul 27, 2021 at 3:29 PM EVDL Administrator via EV
 wrote:
>
> On 25 Jul 2021 at 13:12, Seth Rothenberg via EV wrote:
>
> > what would it take to replace the cord + rectifier with some number of these
> > 40V packs which are available at 6Ah?
>
> If memory serves, Lee Hart did something similar with small Gates Cyclon
> lead cells many years ago.  I hope he'll chime in with the details.
>
> Years ago, I converted a 120vac B mower to DC, replacing the 120v PM motor
> with a 36v one.  I didn't try to use the handle switch for DC - I can't
> imagine that it would have fared well - but instead used it to operate a
> small golf car type contactor. The downside of that arrangement was that it
> sacrificed the dynamic blade braking that the mower had originally, and thus
> some safety.
>
> I powered mine from a 38v 10ah LiFePO4 battery.  Instead of putting the
> battery on the mower, I carried it in a backpack, which made the mower
> easier to maneuver.
>
> One thing that surprised me was how much current the motor used just
> spinning the blade in free air, not even cutting.  It was 6-8 amps, if I'm
> not mistaken.  Seems like a lot, doesn't it?
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  This raises a number of questions, such as "what's actually wrong
>  with people?," and "is this legal in Spain?"
>
>-- Found on the net
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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[EVDL] Charging my Volt from 100' of zip cord

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

TIP:  Never be caught without wire!

You can charge a Volt (8 amps default) via 100' of simple #18
lamp zip cord if you wanted to. (and had the 3rd GND wire).
The 5v line drop is within the standard for acceptable voltage drop.

I routinely carry hundreds of feet of #18 zip cord for backup
and emergency power in all  my vehicles because I can carry
four times as much wire under the seat in the same volume
as the standard stiff double insulated  orange extension cords.

See my spool:  http://aprs.org/prius/photos/220cord3x.JPG
Ignore the 220V label, this image was for when I remotely power
things (universal power supplies) from the 220V prius battery.

When I find such a spool, I pull off the 15' or 20' of stiff plastic orange
cord and re-wind it with 100' to 120' of #18 lamp zip cord. Note: to get
120',you have to be very careful and obsessive in acting like a fishing
reel and laying in the zip cord flat and adjacent (no twists).  But you
can do it.  [But for dual wire use only - No GND wire]

I showed up once at a downed tree and was able to plug in TWO
of these 100' cords of #18 zip cord in series to run a small
chain saw and save the day.  Yes, there was noticible voltage drop
but still plenty of power to run the saw.  I have even run an electric
lawnmower through one when it was more convenient than digging
out all the old orange and green cords "from around back".

Oh, also I was able to use two of these at a rest stop for a small
space heater (on low-power (700W) and sleep in the car overnight
(well, several hours anyway) because the black zip cord just kind-of
disappeared in the joint to cross the sidewalk and then along the
edge of the sidewalk around to the back of the building where the
vending machines were plugged in.

I would never have gotten away with that using 200' of bright
thick orange extension cords.

Anyway, just some tall tales from the armchair
(never be caught without wire!)
Bob, WB4APR
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[EVDL] Chevy Volt battery cell voltages?

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I see images showing the cell voltages
of all the cells in the Volt battery.  Is this a mode one can get into
on the in-car display?  Or is this some kind of app someone
downloads  onto a smart phone?  (which I dont h ave).

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] EV charging rates

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I assume you are talking about a 50 amp circuit that then operates at 40A.
40*240*4 = 38 kWh or about 640 Whrs/mile (pretty high)...
>From the Table, the Teslas get from 25 to 37 Mph charging.
FOr you to go 60mi is 15 MPh charging which is about half as efficient,
Bob

On Mon, Jul 12, 2021 at 2:22 PM John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:
>
> On Mon Jul 12 08:51:29 PDT 2021 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
> >I need to remember that.  I wonder what the MPH charge rate for the F150
> >will be!  Or the Hummer.?  If anyone has numbers to add to this table for
> >other models, please let me know.
>
> Well, on my Converted F250, It takes about 4 hours at 50A, 240V to get 60 
> miles of range...
> I'd hope that a factory EV truck could do better than that!
>
>
> --
>
> Tigers prowl and Dragons soar in my dreams...
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[EVDL] EV charging rates

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

In charging, the car makes the difference!

In about the middle of this page is a table that shows the variety of
charging rates in Miles per-hour for a variety of Tesla's on the variety
of electrical outlets

https://garagetransformed.com/electric-car-outlet/#:~:text=Level%202%20EV%20chargers%20require%20running%20240%20volt,the%20breaker%20box%20to%20have%20a%20compatible%20interface.

I usually just use the same general figure of 4 MPH for 120v, and 10 MPH for
20 amps at 240.  But these assume a constant efficiency for the cars being
charged.  When in fact, cars have a high range of variability in how efficiently
they use those kWh.  For example, the 20 amp 240v range varies from 8
to 15 MPh or almost two to one between the Tesla model X and more
efficient model 3.

I need to remember that.  I wonder what the MPH charge rate for the F150
will be!  Or the Hummer.?  If anyone has numbers to add to this table for
other models, please let me know.

Bob
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[EVDL] EV Signs for your vehicle

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Problem Solved.
My wife would not allow me to put ELECTRIC decals on her brand new Prius
Prime plugin whereas to me, there is nothing more important about driving
an EV than making sure others can SEE it's electric.

But since I can no longer drive my highly visible decal'ed TH!NK.nor my
http://aprs.org/FrankenVolt.html and she has to drive me everywhere I began
looking for a magnetic sign that I can stick on the car when I am in it.

To have a magnetic "ELECTRIC" sign made was over $100, but I found the
perfect $1.65 solution.  Home depot sells a 3.5" x 9" magnetic Student
Driver sign.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Everbilt-3-5-in-x-9-in-Plastic-Magnetic-Student-Driver-Sign-31515/313666354
I just print out my wording and tape it to the sign.  It is only on the car
"per trip"
And I can mix and match at will.

Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Fwd: Bob's EV and SOlar obsession in Baltimore Sun

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I simply connected the motorcycle batteries in parallel but diode-isolated
frpm the NimH Prius battery and then only charged the motorcycle
batteries since the Prius maintained the nimh.

But then kids started driving and I converted 3 salvage priuses and
caught the solar one on fire by forgetfully overcharging the nimh
and since I had proved my point and did NOT have the time to
build a 240v solar charger that was quad-redundant safe
(over voltage, over current, over temp and over pressure) I
disconnected the series connected 15 panels and connected them
in parallel to the 12v battery only for field operations from12v.

Bob, WB4APR

On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 6:18 PM EVDL Administrator via EV
 wrote:
>
> On 19 Jun 2021 at 15:25, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
>
> > https://www.baltimoresun.com/opinion/columnists/dan-rodricks/bs-md-rodricks-06
> > 20-20210618-zgplxgdbfza2jby6uhhqgbgyna-story.html
>
> Nice piece!  I'm impressed that the writer understood what use you make of
> the PV on the Frankenvolt.  However, I'm curious as to how you connected
> Priuses to motorcycle batteries to increase their driving range.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>  In politics, stupidity is not a handicap.
>
> -- Paul Graham
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
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[EVDL] Fwd: Bob's EV and SOlar obsession in Baltimore Sun

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I was interviewed by columnist Dan Rodericks of the Baltimore Sun and'
exchanged several dozen emails to arrive at this column;
https://www.baltimoresun.com/opinion/columnists/dan-rodricks/bs-md-rodricks-0620-20210618-zgplxgdbfza2jby6uhhqgbgyna-story.html

It covers my obsession of EV's, solar and emergency power.

Bob

>
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Re: [EVDL] Green car reports - illegible. - FIX

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I still request viewers email their complaint to GreenCarReports...
Maybe they will respond to more of us

But

There is a "fix" under windows 10.  Press and hold the left Shift and
ALT keys and then press the prt-screen key..

It turns the screen into white font on black screen and LINKS become
a highly visible yellow.

Do the same keys to reverse back to normal.
Bob

On Tue, Jun 8, 2021 at 1:26 PM Robert Bruninga  wrote:
>
> I subscribe to Green Car Reports and really enjoy their news and
> their format.  But I simply cannot see/read their embedded links.
> They use a light green font for links and I have to hold my laptop
> up to my eyes or use a magnifier to be able to read the link.
>
> I have emailed my objection to their low-contrast light-green color
> and font but to no avail.  But then I am just one man complaining.
>
> Maybe if you get Green Car Reports and you also find it hard to
> read the embedded light-green-links, maybe you too would
> be willing to send them a note of feedback.
>
> Just say'in
> Bob
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[EVDL] Green car reports - illegible?

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I subscribe to Green Car Reports and really enjoy their news and
their format.  But I simply cannot see/read their embedded links.
They use a light green font for links and I have to hold my laptop
up to my eyes or use a magnifier to be able to read the link.

I have emailed my objection to their low-contrast light-green color
and font but to no avail.  But then I am just one man complaining.

Maybe if you get Green Car Reports and you also find it hard to
read the embedded light-green-links, maybe you too would
be willing to send them a note of feedback.

Just say'in
Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Vehicle to grid power?

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

You do know that the $189 is just for the wiring kit.  Does not
include inverter...
Bob

On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 8:33 AM Rod Hower via EV  wrote:
>
>  Did you install one of these in your Volt Peter?  Looking at the emergency 
> backup one for $189 on my 2014 Volt
> On Tuesday, May 25, 2021, 09:07:21 PM EDT, Peter VanDerWal via EV 
>  wrote:
>
>  All of the pickups that are supposedly coming out will have that, at least 
> as an option.
>
> I've seen references to it on Cybertruck, Lordstown, and Rivian.
>
> Plus there is a website about adding 1kw inverters to Chevy Volts and many 
> other EVs:
> https://www.evextend.com/Products.php
>
> My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
>
> May 25, 2021 5:19 PM, "paul dove via EV"  wrote:
>
> > The Ford F-150 EV
> >
> > Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
> >
> > On Tuesday, May 25, 2021, 11:49 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV 
> >  wrote:
> >
> > does anyone know of any vehicles with 120v outlets that are bigger
> > than 150 watts?
> >
> > Im working on an article talking about the Ford F150's 10kw outlet
> > power.  I want to be sure to mention  any other vehicles that have it
> >
> > bob
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[EVDL] Vehicle to grid power?

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

does anyone know of any vehicles with 120v outlets that are bigger
than 150 watts?

Im working on an article talking about the Ford F150's 10kw outlet
power.  I want to be sure to mention  any other vehicles that have it

bob
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Re: [EVDL] small UPS

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I found a big 3 kW UPS that was being tossed because the batteries
were dead.  It ran on 72  volts.  six gel cells.
I brought it home and bought six deep cycle external lead acids and
use it for my house primary backup.

Unfortunately in the 6 years I have had it, we have never lost power
for longer than it  would take me to go to the base,ent to activate
it.

I leave it off line since I measured it once and it draws 750 kVa just
stting there when there is power.
So I only plug it in to charge the batteries when I anticipate a power outage.

bob

On Sun, May 23, 2021 at 9:16 PM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>
> Somewhat off topic...
>
> For some time, I've been meaning to get a small UPS to power my router,
> laptop, and other electronics in case of an emergency. Well, our power
> will be off monday for utility work and so I bought a small UPS. But,
> I'm disappointed with it.
>
> The spec claims it has 1080 joules, which would be 0.3wh. That's
> obviously not true, so I don't know what that number is supposed to
> mean. However, its display says it has a load around 60w and that it
> should sustain for 96 minutes. That would be around 100wh. I would like
> something that can last a day or two, not an hour. (I can turn off my
> external display and probably cut the load in half, but still...)
>
> My thought is to buy a 12v deep cycle battery and hook up a charger, an
> inverter, and contactor to switch from wall to battery. I'm pretty sure
> there are products which do all that but I haven't found any yet.
>
> Does anyone have a suggestion ?
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
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Re: [EVDL] Ford F-150 Reveal - Great for everyone!

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Each 14 MPG gas guzzling pickup commuter that gets taken off the road
for a new F150 Lightening, accomplishes more for the environment and
all of us than maybe three other EV purchases.  So this is a WIN-WIN
all the way around.

FINALLY something I can talk about in common with the "good ole boys"
Bob

Back to the Ford F-150 Lightning - $40-90k before incentives. Doesn’t
sound cheap, but it performs better than any F-150 has ever performed,
which is exactly what’s needed to generate sales and excitement, and
make it *the* F-150 to own.
> >>> If it gets people interested in EVs as a cool, high performance vehicle, 
> >>> that’s great.
> >>> This is a middle America meat and potatoes vehicle.
> >>> I see this vehicle as game-changing as the Tesla.
> > I think it will be popular. So much for making efficient vehicles - 
> > one estimate I read put the small pack at 115kWh. But most buyers won't 
> > care. They want the F-150 look, the power, and the range. It must weigh 
> > a ton. No, make that 3 tons.
 Same price for the low end model. Lots of intelligent features. This is a 
 real competitor to the Cybertruck. Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] The state of EV's 1890 to 1922m - cube

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

CUBE per Speed:

In my case, (Major east coast pipeline outage), the concern
was with energy used on a trip proportional to cube of speed.
I was trying to get my wife to slow down from 70 to 55
to make most of the 32 mile daily round trip for chemo
on battery in her (30 mile) plugin-Prius and not use -any- gas.
(70 to 55 would save HALF the energy (due to drag) for the highway portion).
Bob

On Sun, May 16, 2021 at 3:50 PM Robert Bruninga  wrote:
>
> Although drag Force goes up by square of velocity, but then power equals force
> times velocity, so the power to move in the presence of drag goes up as the
> Cube of velocity.
>
> On Sun, May 16, 2021  Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> >
> > square of velocity. But, yes, not linear.
>
> > ------ Original Message --
> > From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
> > Subject: Re: [EVDL] The state of EV's 1890 to 1922
> >
> > >Bingo, I re-read my email and when I said it goes up significantly
> > >above 45, I omitted the fact (that you allude to) is that it goes up
> > >as the CUBE of velocity., A huge factor.  Bob
> > >
> > >On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 9:47 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:
> > >>
> > >>   None of that changes physics. You can lower the impact by aerodynamics 
> > >> but it still goes up proportional to speed and yes they aren't linear. 
> > >> the faster you go the faster the drag increases. Rolling resistance goes 
> > >> up as well but it is linear. I did a calculation for my conversion and 
> > >> the areo loading caught rolling at around 70mph with a dramatic change 
> > >> in the curve around 45 mph. It was a Toyota Celica so pretty good 
> > >> aerodynamics. I have the spread sheet somewhere if anyone is interested. 
> > >> It required about 21Kw at 70 mph.
> > >>
> > >>  On Friday, May 14, 2021, 4:56:48 AM CDT, Paul Compton via EV 
> > >>  wrote:
> > >>
> > >>   On Fri, 14 May 2021 at 03:28, Robert Bruninga via EV 
> > >>  wrote:
> > >>
> > >>  > Wind drag only becomes significant beginning at about 45 MPH
> > >>
> > >>  Tell that to a cyclist.
> > >>
> > >>  This was something that automotive designers used to say years ago and
> > >>  what they meant was...
> > >>
> > >>  We have so much engine power available, that aerodynamic drag isn't
> > >>  affecting vehicle performance until you exceed 45mph.
> > >>  They weren't much concerned with fuel economy.
> > >>
> > >>  Motorcycles have truly horrible aerodynamics,but some attempts at
> > >>  improvement have been made over the years. The Royal Enfield
> > >>  Dreamliner was one example and as well as top speed and economy, it
> > >>  actually improved acceleration, despite a 40 or so pound weight
> > >>  penalty.
> > >>
> > >>https://www.oldbikemart.co.uk/the-dreamliner-lives-on/
> > >>
> > >>  --
> > >>  Paul Compton
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Re: [EVDL] The state of EV's 1890 to 1922m - cube

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Although drag Force goes up by square of velocity, but then power equals force
times velocity, so the power to move in the presence of drag goes up as the
Cube of velocity.

On Sun, May 16, 2021  Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>
> square of velocity. But, yes, not linear.

> -- Original Message --
> From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] The state of EV's 1890 to 1922
>
> >Bingo, I re-read my email and when I said it goes up significantly
> >above 45, I omitted the fact (that you allude to) is that it goes up
> >as the CUBE of velocity., A huge factor.  Bob
> >
> >On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 9:47 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:
> >>
> >>   None of that changes physics. You can lower the impact by aerodynamics 
> >> but it still goes up proportional to speed and yes they aren't linear. the 
> >> faster you go the faster the drag increases. Rolling resistance goes up as 
> >> well but it is linear. I did a calculation for my conversion and the areo 
> >> loading caught rolling at around 70mph with a dramatic change in the curve 
> >> around 45 mph. It was a Toyota Celica so pretty good aerodynamics. I have 
> >> the spread sheet somewhere if anyone is interested. It required about 21Kw 
> >> at 70 mph.
> >>
> >>  On Friday, May 14, 2021, 4:56:48 AM CDT, Paul Compton via EV 
> >>  wrote:
> >>
> >>   On Fri, 14 May 2021 at 03:28, Robert Bruninga via EV  
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>  > Wind drag only becomes significant beginning at about 45 MPH
> >>
> >>  Tell that to a cyclist.
> >>
> >>  This was something that automotive designers used to say years ago and
> >>  what they meant was...
> >>
> >>  We have so much engine power available, that aerodynamic drag isn't
> >>  affecting vehicle performance until you exceed 45mph.
> >>  They weren't much concerned with fuel economy.
> >>
> >>  Motorcycles have truly horrible aerodynamics,but some attempts at
> >>  improvement have been made over the years. The Royal Enfield
> >>  Dreamliner was one example and as well as top speed and economy, it
> >>  actually improved acceleration, despite a 40 or so pound weight
> >>  penalty.
> >>
> >>https://www.oldbikemart.co.uk/the-dreamliner-lives-on/
> >>
> >>  --
> >>  Paul Compton
> >>www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
> >>  ___
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Re: [EVDL] The state of EV's 1890 to 1922

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Bingo, I re-read my email and when I said it goes up significantly
above 45, I omitted the fact (that you allude to) is that it goes up
as the cube of velocity.
A huge factor.  Bob

On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 9:47 PM paul dove via EV  wrote:
>
>  None of that changes physics. You can lower the impact by aerodynamics but 
> it still goes up proportional to speed and yes they aren't linear. the faster 
> you go the faster the drag increases. Rolling resistance goes up as well but 
> it is linear. I did a calculation for my conversion and the areo loading 
> caught rolling at around 70mph with a dramatic change in the curve around 45 
> mph. It was a Toyota Celica so pretty good aerodynamics. I have the spread 
> sheet somewhere if anyone is interested. It required about 21Kw at 70 mph.
>
> On Friday, May 14, 2021, 4:56:48 AM CDT, Paul Compton via EV 
>  wrote:
>
>  On Fri, 14 May 2021 at 03:28, Robert Bruninga via EV  
> wrote:
>
> > Wind drag only becomes significant beginning at about 45 MPH
>
> Tell that to a cyclist.
>
> This was something that automotive designers used to say years ago and
> what they meant was...
>
> We have so much engine power available, that aerodynamic drag isn't
> affecting vehicle performance until you exceed 45mph.
> They weren't much concerned with fuel economy.
>
> Motorcycles have truly horrible aerodynamics,but some attempts at
> improvement have been made over the years. The Royal Enfield
> Dreamliner was one example and as well as top speed and economy, it
> actually improved acceleration, despite a 40 or so pound weight
> penalty.
>
> https://www.oldbikemart.co.uk/the-dreamliner-lives-on/
>
> --
> Paul Compton
> www.paulcompton.co.uk (YouTube channel)
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Re: [EVDL] Wash. will try again to for EV sales mandate

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

This has been my proposal all along.  Raise EV road use tax by X and
raise the gas drivers ENVIRONMENTAL USE tax by the same amount -  X.

See  http://aprs.org/EV-and-gas-taxes.html

Bob

On Sat, May 15, 2021 at 2:27 PM Charles Galpin via EV  wrote:
>
> I agree. But wouldn’t a gas tax basically accomplish this?
>
> -- charles
>
> > On May 15, 2021, at 1:22 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> > wrote:
> >
> > IMO, the fair way to recover fuel tax revenue is a pollution surcharge to
> > the license renewal fee, based on the vehicle's EPA MPG or MPGe rating.  The
> > more energy the vehicle uses, the more the owner pays.
>
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Re: [EVDL] The state of EV's 1890 to 1922

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Wind drag only becomes significant beginning at about 45 MPH and since
most electrics were slower than that back then, I dont think it made
much of a difference.  Bob

On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 8:20 AM paul dove  wrote:
>
> What about average speed. My range goes way up the slower I drive.
>
>
> Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone
>
> On Sunday, May 9, 2021, 4:10 PM, Robert Bruninga via EV  
> wrote:
>
> > Im reading  "The Electric car in America 1890 - 1922" and throughout,
> > it prints articles (mostly ads) claiming 35, 50 and 100 mile ranges but 
> > NONE of
> > those were made under peer review condition.  Throughout, the real
> > honest reporting concluded over and over again, that about 20-25 miles
> > was the routine repeatable range  which rose to about 50 miles by 1910 
> > or so.
>
> But the one thing that surprises me is the assumed mileage.  Generally
> the average miles per month was on the order of 1000 miles per month
> that is not that far off from our present assumptinos of average
> mileage around 15k miles a year or simiilar to 1200 miles a month.
> And that was over the most ridiculous roads.
>
> Though I assume that statistic is only for people with cars, which was
> extremely small.
>
> Oh, electricity cost about ten cents per kWj, about the same as today
> (without conversion to inflation).
>
> Oh, and the average mileage of a horse was about 40 miles a day,
> again, the same as todays average family daily travel.
>
> Bob
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Re: [EVDL] opinion article on hydrogen

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Yep, gas and electricity might be about equal for heating, but with a
heatppump AND investing in home solar, you can lock in your home heat
forever.Renewable adn cheaper in the logn run.

Bob

On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 7:40 PM EVDL Administrator via EV
 wrote:
>
> On 9 May 2021 at 14:38, Jim Walls via EV wrote:
>
> > I heat my house, make hot water, and cook (except for the microwave)
> > with natural gas.  I can do all that for less than electric heating one room
> > part time.  I'm in no hurry to move away from natural gas for making heat.
>
> I have two reactions to this.
>
> 1. You're just one case.  Not everyone has the same relative costs for fuel
> gas and electricity.
>
> 2. What it costs you as an individual is only part of the picture.  We also
> have to consider what it costs society - both monetary and health.
> Ultimately that's a cost to you too, because your taxes have to cover it.
>
> Comments on the above:
>
> Our costs for fuel gas here in the US are temporarily unnaturally low,
> because the determined scramble to crush every bit of shale rock under this
> nation and release all its fuel gas has created a gas surplus.  It won't
> last.
>
> Other nations have to import their gas, in some cases from nations they'd
> rather not have to patronize.   Much of western Europe is shifting to
> renewables, both for this political reason, and to reduce their carbon
> emissions.  So typically they price their gas to encourage electricity use,
> and in some cases no longer approve new fuel gas installations.
>
> Take France for example.  Electricity is about 0.16 euro per KWH, and gas is
> about 0.075 euro per KWH.  Seems like a no-brainer at first glance.  But a
> heat pump with a COOP of 3.3 (typical minisplit) effectively cuts the
> electricity cost to 0.048 euro per KWH of heat produced.
>
> When you do the math, you find that, in France, a minisplit is the lowest
> cost home heat source.  It's even cheaper than heating with wood, formerly
> the low cost champ.
>
> As a further incentive, the French government subsidizes heat pump
> installations.  BTW, they also subsidize EVs directly, at 7,000 euros for
> most models, and give homeowners a tax credit toward installing EVSEs.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
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>
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[EVDL] The state of EV's 1890 to 1922

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> Im reading  "The Electric car in America 1890 - 1922" and throughout,
> it prints articles (mostly ads) claiming 35, 50 and 100 mile ranges but NONE 
> of
> those were made under peer review condition.  Throughout, the real
> honest reporting concluded over and over again, that about 20-25 miles
> was the routine repeatable range  which rose to about 50 miles by 1910 or 
> so.

But the one thing that surprises me is the assumed mileage.  Generally
the average miles per month was on the order of 1000 miles per month
that is not that far off from our present assumptinos of average
mileage around 15k miles a year or simiilar to 1200 miles a month.
And that was over the most ridiculous roads.

Though I assume that statistic is only for people with cars, which was
extremely small.

Oh, electricity cost about ten cents per kWj, about the same as today
(without conversion to inflation).

Oh, and the average mileage of a horse was about 40 miles a day,
again, the same as todays average family daily travel.

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] Energy Improvements ...

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Was not linear.  A full 50% of that battery improvement was in the last year.
And the 20-to-1 improvement turned a 1900's 20 mile car into a very
practical 400 mile car
Bob

On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 7:47 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
>
> Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> > For what it is worth, I researched the improvements in battery
> > capacity since the Edison Nickel-iron EV battery in the 1900's.
> > Looks like it went from 20 Whr/kg to 400 Whr/kg on the latest Tesla
> > cells.  A 20-to-1 improvement.
>
> Ah, but a 20-to-1 improvement over 100 years is only about a 3%
> improvement per year (i.e. $1 invested in 1920 at 3% compound interest
> is $19.20 today).
>
> > For solar, I use the factor of about 200-to-one since 1970.
>
> So solar is a heck of a lot better investment. :-)
>
> Lee
>
> --
> A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
> nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
>  -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
> --
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[EVDL] Energy Improvements ...

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

For what it is worth, I researched the improvements in battery
capacity since the Edison  Nickel-iron EV battery in the 1900's.
Looks like it went from 20 Whr/kg to 400 Whr/kg on the latest Tesla
cells.  A 20-to-1 improvement.

For solar, I use the factor of about 200-to-one since 1970.
Bob,

On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 5:22 PM EVDL Administrator via EV
 wrote:
>
> On 8 May 2021 at 10:10, (-Phil-) via EV wrote:
>
> > Biofuels can at least be carbon neutral, as you can close the
> > carbon cycle.  It will take a long way to get there of course, as the
> > complete biofuel production cycle is also still a carbon intensive
> > operation, but this can be fixed over time.
>
> With all due respect, "this can be fixed over time" is a bit too much hand-
> waving for my taste.
>
> The problem with biofuels is that growing and harvesting crops, processing
> them, and transporting the fuel to the use point requires substantial energy
> input, and most of it comes from carbon based fuels.  Even fertilizer and
> pesticides are made from petroleum.  I just don't see that equation changing
> fast enough to get us to carbon-neutral in time.
>
> The only biofuel application I can think of that *might* get closer sooner -
> and I'm not 100% sure about even this - is electricity generation.  For
> example, Uruguay's power system runs largely on pulverized Eucalyptus wood.
> The problem with this is that petroleum giants have governments bought and
> paid for, and they can't make money from distributing wood chips as easily
> as they can from corn processed into ethanol.
>
> There's also the fact that food turned into fuel while people are starving
> round the world has some ... ethical considerations.
>
> > To get to electrification quicker, I still think some hybridization is
> > good.
>
> Your point about improving utilization of limited battery-production
> capacity is a good one.  We need to keep plugging ahead (sorry) with battery
> recycling, and with developing batteries that use less exotic materials.
> NiMH, anyone?  Hello?
>
> But at the consumer level, I think that the use case for hybrids - I mean
> real ones, not "you naver have to plug it in" pseudo-hybrids - is fading as
> true BEV battery capacity grows and rapid charging facilities multiply.
>
> It's also easier and more efficient to add PV capacity to EV charging than
> it is to add "renewability" to ICEV refueling.
>
> Finally, a BEV is mechanically much simpler and at least theoretically more
> reliable than an ICEV, let alone a hybrid with the complexity of both.  I
> haven't run the numbers, but intuitively, manufacturing a BEV has to be less
> carbon intensive than manufacturing a hybrid, and it should have a longer
> service life.
>
> Like LPs and phono cartridges in 1980, today's ICEVs are highly complex,
> almost impossibly refined machines only made affordable by serial production
> and massive amounts of long-term development.
>
> Like CD players in the late 1980s and early 1990s, EVs are evolving rapidly
> and quickly declining in cost, thanks to economy of scale and research into
> battery optimization.
>
> Perhaps I'm being uncharacteristically overoptimistic, and I could certainly
> be wrong, but I think that what CDs did to LPs by 1995 is what EVs are
> poised to do to ICEVs now - if politicians will let them.  True hybrids may
> still have a place, but I think (and hope) not for much longer.
>
> David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey
>
> To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my
> offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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>
> -- Anonymous
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>
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Re: [EVDL] Improving EV range aerodynamics when towing a boat or trailer.

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Remember that air resistance goes up as the cube of speed.  So just
cutting speed 20% will reduce the wind load about half
Bob
On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 4:08 PM Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
>
> Just out of curiosity, how much of the loss is due to air resistance ?
> You might try driving at half the speed and taking similar measurements.
> A little math will tell you what percent comes from air.
>
> I think your assumption that it comes from air is reasonable. But before
> you launch into work and spending money, it might be good to know.
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Mark Hanson via EV" 
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc: "Mark Hanson" 
> Sent: 06-May-21 12:11:13 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] Improving EV range aerodynamics when towing a boat or
> trailer.
>
> >Hi Folks
> >When I tow my 6x16 H20 ski boat 1480lbs behind the 3600lb Bolt or 4400lb 
> >Tesla, watt-hours doubles and associated range is cut in half. I thought the 
> >Tesla y would be better due to the weight ratio but measures about the same 
> >reduction driving the same 2 hour path to the lake.  I could put the 
> >windshields on hinges but that’s quite a bit of work.  Thinking covering the 
> >boat with a high speed rated cover to remove the seating area cavity and 
> >redo the test measurements.  Any other ideas?  With 316 mile Tesla range cut 
> >in half, I feel comfortable with a lake up to 70 miles away but there’s some 
> >near Roanoke that are a bit further.
> >Stay Charged,
> >Mark
> >
> >Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [EVDL] Fixing my over volt charger - with diodes

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I do this all the time.  Buy open fram surplus DC power supplies rated
at 15.0 volts and drop it with one diode to 14.2 volts constant
voltage or two diodes to 13.6 volts.

Bob, WB4APR

On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 7:44 PM Bill Dube via EV  wrote:
>
> A simple resistor won't limit the output voltage when the current tapers
> off. (When the load resistance becomes larger.) It will still go to 16+
> volts and ruin your battery.
>
> A simple solution might be to place two, perhaps three, large diodes
> (rectifiers) in series with the output.
>
> You can easily find a diodes (or perhaps a rectifier bridge that can
> wired to make two diodes, just use the + and - terminals,) that will
> handle the 10 amp output. Ordinary diodes will drop ~0.7 volts each.
>
> Bill D.
>
> On 4/27/2021 10:12 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
> > This might be a crude fix but some sort of variable resistor that can 
> > tolerate 10 amps at 16.5v might work. There is even a place to easily put 
> > the resistor for easy access. The only pot on the control board doesn't 
> > seem to change anything. Maybe using Ohm's Law the right value within a 
> > range might be found. Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Bolt battery power?

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Are you saying the "camping mode" means putting it in Mountain mode?

Bob

On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 11:08 AM Peter VanDerWal via EV
 wrote:
>
> On my 2019 Bolt there is one 12V outlet (cigarett lighter style) and 2x USB 
> charging ports.
> THe 12V battery is up under the hood.
> Lots of people pull 100+ amps from it using inverters.  However, unlike the 
> Volt I haven't seen anyone come up with a method off keeping the vehicle on 
> for more than 15 minutes when not moving.  When the vehicle shuts off the 
> DC-DC converter also shuts off.  DC-DC converter is rated for 1600 watts 
> (115-120 AMPS?)
>
> The Volt is much more suitable for standby power.  The "Camping Mode" trick 
> works with it to keep it on and if you put it into "Mountain Mode" It will 
> automatically start up the onboard generator when the battery SOC drops below 
> 20% and charge it back up to around 40%(?) and then shut off the generator.
> I calculate that with a full battery and a full tank of gas it could run the 
> essential systems in my house for a week or more (depending on the season)
> Essential systems: HVAC, fridge, deep freeze, minimal lights, 50-100W for 
> computer/network systems.
>
> My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
>
> April 19, 2021 10:55 AM, "Robert Bruninga via EV"  wrote:
>
> > A front cover article in the National Ham radio magazine promoted the
> > value of the EV for mobile radio operating during
> > drive-everywhere-contesting. But to my surprise, he recommended NOT
> > connecting to the Bolt electrical system due to concerns over dealer
> > warranty issues if anything was connected to the 12v battery.
> >
> > Does anyone here have a Bolt?
> > 1) How many 12V DC outlets are there (2? more?)
> > 2) I assume they are fused at 10 amps like all other "lighters"
> > 3) How accessible is the 12v battery? (A photo would be nice)
> > 4) What kind of fusing does it have?
> > Anything else relative to drawing MANY more amps from the 12v battery...
> >
> > bob
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Re: [EVDL] Bolt battery power?

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> A front cover article in the National Ham radio magazine promoted the
> value of the EV for mobile radio operating during
> drive-everywhere-contesting.  But to my surprise, he recommended NOT
> connecting to the Bolt electrical system due to concerns over dealer
> warranty issues if anything was connected to the 12v battery.
>
> Does anyone here have a Bolt?
> 1) How many 12V DC outlets are there (2? more?)
> 2) I assume they are fused at 10 amps like all other "lighters"
> 3) How accessible is the 12v battery? (A photo would be nice)
> 4) What kind of fusing does it have?
>  Anything else relative to drawing say 100 amps (peak) from the 12v battery 
> (60 amps maybe average)...
>
> bob
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV - shocking!

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> > > Solar cells bonded to the car directly require some sort of clear resin,
> > > epoxy, or polymer.  This usually only lasts about a year before it starts
> > > to break down from UV damage.  ...
>
> Shocking Lesson:  I was preparing to show my solar prius one day and used a 
> damp cloth and water to wipe the dust off the 11 solar panels.  At first I 
> felt a slight tingling here and there and then went back to the same panel 
> and got a good shock.
>
> My panels are fiberglass composite so that they bend slightly and were all 
> connected in series to get to 250 VDC for directly charging the Prius 
> battery.  After several years (and this event) one could see water incursion, 
> discoloration and corrosion that had crept into the solar cell layer 
> (sandwiched between the fiberglass substrate and the polymer sealing top 
> layer..
>
> The depth of the edge incursion was as high as 1/2 inch in some edges.
> The problem was obvious!  And I had seen it coming  in fact, I know that I 
> did an initial poor quality sealing job, but figured I'd get back to it some 
> day to do it right.  Never did. until I scraped the car 14 years later
>
> See image of solar cells: about 50% down this page:
> http://aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html
>
> Bob, WB4APR
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> A used vehicle does  not generally have that,

The voltec warranty on my used chevy Volt was still valid through the
original 150,000 miles and 8 years.

I bought it 3 years old coming off lease from a dealer and that gives
a good sense of reliability as any original issues and warranty
problems were behind it.  Guy wanted $14,000, I got it for $12,500 .
A great deal in my opinion

And that for the best EV ever made...  ;-)

At the 7 year 6 mo point it gave an error signal to Check HV charging
system and would not charge.  I took it to dealer for first time and
they did a  code-load or something that solved it at no cost.  I am
convinced it was a pre-programmed fault included in the original code
to give GM a chance to read the condition of the car as design
feedback.  Otherwise, since it had never been back to the dealier in 5
years, the GM system had never seen the car and had no data on its
condition..


bob.

On Thu, Apr 22, 2021 at 2:31 PM Jim Walls via EV  wrote:
>
> On 04/22/2021 10:09, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> > Also worth considering: the huge, jaw-dropping depreciation on some EVs
> > should give us pause.  That tells us what value vehicle customers actually
> > attach to them, and it's not good news for the EV movement.  Tesla is a
> > notable outlier, however.
>
> This i just my opinion, but a new vehicle generally has a warrantee that
> will cover a battery (OK, some better than others).  A used vehicle does
> not generally have that, and a battery replacement is EXPENSIVE.  Again,
> my opinion, but after range anxiety, battery replacement cost is likely
> the #2 public issue with EVs - particularly a used one.
>
> >> They want to sit up high and not have to bend down to get in the
> >> vehicle.
> > Citation needed.  This sounds to me like a personal anecdote.
> >
>
> I'm 62 as of a few days ago and I can certainly agree with that
> statement.  When I get into my wife's Toyota Corolla, it is much harder
> to fold myself in half and crawl down to get into it, than with a taller
> vehicle.  My primary vehicle is a RAM 2500 4x4 pickup which is sort of
> the other direction, you have to step up to get in, but the door is far
> larger so it is MUCH easier.  And before someone asks, yes, I do NEED
> and use the large heavy duty 4x4 vehicle on a somewhat regular basis.
>
> --
> 73
> -
> Jim Walls - K6CCC
> j...@k6ccc.org
> Ofc:  818-548-4804
> http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/
> AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395
>
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Re: [EVDL] From my nissan leaf .com: Why the Leaf 12v system undercharges the 12v battery.

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Imeasured my Prius and got somewhere between 10 to 25 mA always-on
load while parked.
That is a LOT!
Bob

On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 12:46 AM Glenn Brooks via EV  wrote:
>
> Hmm, Phil’s comment about battery drain is very interesting.  Up until last 
> year, My daughter had an older Lexus SUV hybrid . She worked in San Francisco 
> and walked to work, so the car stayed parked for weeks sometimes. When parked 
> for a week, the battery pack and the lead acid battery always went dead from 
> some mysterious , undetectable current draw.  Neither the dealer or Lexus 
> ever traced ( or admitted a design flaw) in the supposed stray current, when 
> parked.  We never figured it out. Finally talked her into selling the d#%n 
> thing.  Wondering if something to do with cell monitoring was killing the 
> batteries.
>
> It’s gone out of our life, ( dad’s are the 24 hr on call emergency fixit 
> guys), but still curious.
>
> Thanks ,
> Glenn
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Apr 20, 2021, at 9:29 PM, (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:
> >
> > The problem most people are seeing is the high quiescent drain.  IMO, this
> > started with the Prius with the smart-key option.  It was exacerbated with
> > the introduction of telematics, which means there's a cell modem always on
> > in your car now.  Most modern cars now have both.  So if you drive every
> > day, and long enough to get your absorption phase completed, likely not
> > going to be much of a problem, but if your car isn't used as often, you are
> > in trouble.
> >
> > Ultracaps (or any capacitors) have a linear Dv/dt plot, which means voltage
> > falls immediately on discharge.  This means to get the capacity anywhere
> > CLOSE to what you get with lead-acid, you'd need a ludicrously large cap
> > array.
> >
> >> On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 8:36 PM George Tyler via EV 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> The leaf battery  behaves much like the 12V Prius battery in my experience.
> >> They both seem to fail earlier than they should, but when should they fail?
> >> That is "opinion".  The failure mode is different, probably because they
> >> don't fail by not turning a started motor? So you don't know capacity is
> >> almost zero.
> >>I don't think a lithium is good for this application. To get
> >> voltages that are close enough you have to use LiPo4 litiums, with a very
> >> flat discharge curve. This means that the charging voltage is not optimal,
> >> although they do work in this application in ice cars with 14.7V charging.
> >> 4
> >> cells at 13V is 3.25/cell, that's totally flat for these batteries! 14.7V
> >> in
> >> an ICE is 3.675V per cell which is about right. Temperature compensation
> >> for
> >> a lead acid may be way off.  How about a supercap "battery", much less
> >> critical. Seeing that we don't notice the leaf battery losing capacity
> >> until
> >> it's dead, maybe we don't actually need much capacity?
> >> GWT
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: EV On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
> >> Sent: Wednesday, 21 April 2021 2:14 pm
> >> To: Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
> >> Cc: Lee Hart 
> >> Subject: Re: [EVDL] From my nissan leaf .com: Why the Leaf 12v system
> >> undercharges the 12v battery.
> >>
> >> Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
> >>> https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=22752 According to these guys
> >>> a lead battery is not what a Leaf needs. Seems a lithium of some sort
> >>> would do great. Another site said the DC/DC converter can put out as
> >>> much as 120amps. The brakes and other systems that run on the 12v
> >>> system might need a boost if the battery fails and braking is very
> >>> important. After finding out that the lead battery is under charged I
> >>> suspect an undercharged lithium battery might fair much better and for
> >>> longer. Lawrence Rhodes
> >>
> >> I don't "buy" it, Lawrence. Too many of his comments are just opinions; not
> >> facts. Just a few glaring points:
> >>
> >> - A 12v battery *will* reach full charge at 13.0v; it just takes a long
> >> time
> >> (like a week or so).
> >> - He ignores temperature compensation. The Leaf does temperature compensate
> >> its charging.
> >> - He ignores aging. The older the battery, the lower its basic charging
> >> voltage.
> >> - 14.4v will easily fully charge a 12v battery. Remember, if it's holding
> >> the battery at around 13.0v, it's already close to full; so it takes very
> >> little time at 14.4v to finish the job.
> >>
> >> Lee
> >>
> >> ___
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Re: [EVDL] From my nissan leaf .com: Why the Leaf 12v system undercharges the 12v battery.

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

what is the "load dump" problem?
Bob

On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 11:04 PM (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:
>
> I have definitely seen failures of the DC-DC (PCS) in Tesla Model 3's from
> people installing aftermarket Lithiums.  The load dump problem is real!   I
> have one sitting here that I did an autopsy of.  (Blown FETs on the primary
> side, that then took out the HV feed into the PCS)
>
> A PCS failure in the Model 3/Y takes out the entire charging system, so
> maybe not as expensive as in a Leaf, but still not worth it!
>
> On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 7:14 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
>
> > Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:
> > > https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=22752 According to these guys
> > a lead battery is not what a Leaf needs. Seems a lithium of some sort would
> > do great. Another site said the DC/DC converter can put out as much as
> > 120amps. The brakes and other systems that run on the 12v system might need
> > a boost if the battery fails and braking is very important. After finding
> > out that the lead battery is under charged I suspect an undercharged
> > lithium battery might fair much better and for longer. Lawrence Rhodes
> >
> > I don't "buy" it, Lawrence. Too many of his comments are just opinions;
> > not facts. Just a few glaring points:
> >
> > - A 12v battery *will* reach full charge at 13.0v; it just takes a long
> > time (like a week or so).
> > - He ignores temperature compensation. The Leaf does temperature
> > compensate its charging.
> > - He ignores aging. The older the battery, the lower its basic charging
> > voltage.
> > - 14.4v will easily fully charge a 12v battery. Remember, if it's
> > holding the battery at around 13.0v, it's already close to full; so it
> > takes very little time at 14.4v to finish the job.
> >
> > Lee
> >
> > --
> > A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
> > nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
> >  -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
> > --
> > Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> >
> > --
> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> >
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Re: [EVDL] Solar Panels On EV - shocking!

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> > Solar cells bonded to the car directly require some sort of clear resin,
> > epoxy, or polymer.  This usually only lasts about a year before it
starts
> > to break down from UV damage.  ...

Shocking Lesson:  I was preparing to show my solar prius one day and used a
damp cloth and water to wipe the dust off the 11 solar panels.  At first I
felt a slight tingling here and there and then went back to the same panel
and got a good shock.

My panels are fiberglass composite so that they bend slightly and were all
connected in series to get to 250 VDC for directly charging the Prius
battery.  After several years (and this event) one could see water
incursion, discoloration and corrosion that had crept into the solar cell
layer (sandwiched between the fiberglass substrate and the polymer sealing
top layer..

The depth of the edge incursion was as high as 1/2 inch in some edges.
The problem was obvious!  And I had seen it coming  in fact, I know that I
did an initial poor quality sealing job, but figured I'd get back to it
some day to do it right.  Never did. until I scraped the car 14 years later

See image of solar cells: about 50% down this page:
http://aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html

Bob, WB4APR
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[EVDL] Bolt battery power?

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

A front cover article in the National Ham radio magazine promoted the
value of the EV for mobile radio operating during
drive-everywhere-contesting.  But to my surprise, he recommended NOT
connecting to the Bolt electrical system due to concerns over dealer
warranty issues if anything was connected to the 12v battery.

Does anyone here have a Bolt?
1) How many 12V DC outlets are there (2? more?)
2) I assume they are fused at 10 amps like all other "lighters"
3) How accessible is the 12v battery? (A photo would be nice)
4) What kind of fusing does it have?
 Anything else relative to drawing MANY more amps from the 12v battery...

bob
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Re: [EVDL] free piston generators

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I assume in this sentence you meant "plugin-hybrid":
"The greater the EV range that a hybrid has, the bigger the improvement."

Hybrids don't have "EV ranges" unless 1 gentle mile or so is considered
"range".

During my EV eganguelising I am forever correcting people who think a
hybrid is an EV.  It is not.
But a plugin hybrid is.  We have to correct those mistakes wherever they
occur.  == Bob

On Sun, Apr 4, 2021 at 1:00 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:
> > I'm no engineer, but it seems to me that ICEV efficiency today - despite
> the
> > fact that most ICEVs are (IMO) drastically overpowered - is already quite
> > good for a piston engine, thanks to tight microprocessor control.  I
> wonder
> > how much more ICEs can be optimized, even when driving only a range
> > extending genset - whether it's enough to make up for the conversion
> losses.
> >
> > With fast charging pushing into the hundreds of kW, and EV batteries
> > typically between 50kWh and 100kWh, I see a diminishing need for true
> > hybrids and their complexity.
>
> Ah; but 98% of the cars on US roads are ICEs. Hybrids significantly
> improve fuel economy and reduce pollution. So the more hybrids, the less
> the pollution.
>
> The greater the EV range that a hybrid has, the bigger the improvement.
> They may not be the ultimate (EV) solution, but they're a step in the
> right direction. You can "sell" an ICE motor-head on a hybrid (because
> it saves gas), even though they would rather *die* than drive an EV.
> "EVs are a liberal democratic socialist plot to destroy real 'murican
> values!"
> > Could, could, could.  Easy to say.  Now just try to convince the general
> > public to actually do it!  :-\
>
> That's exactly it. We can do it technologically. But can we do it
> politically and emotionally? I'm reminded of that old Groucho Marx song:
>
> Whatever it is, I'm against it!
> No matter how you reasoned or defense it,
> I'm against it!
> I agree with all you say; I'll oppose it anyway,
> 'Cause I'm against it!
>
> Lee
>
> --
> A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
> nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
>  -- Antoine de Saint Exupery
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
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[EVDL] free piston generators

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I guess I had seen this before, but I dont see why it cannot be really
built efficientloy and haved a great market in the EV range extending
application:

Could free-piston range extenders broaden the electric-truck horizon?
(greencarreports.com)


a free piston flying back and forth with a magnet inside coils sure makes
for a one-moving-part gasoline generator (well plus valves)...  And
could be made very modular with the only interfaces a gas-fill line, the
electric connections and an exhaust port.  Drop it in and go.

Bob
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Re: [EVDL] EV trailer light wiring Bolt & Tesla

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

The resistor is far more reliable than the modern DC switching electronics
th ey put in consumer bulbs.
My LED bulbs throughout the house fail about one evey month or so (ouit of
50 and not a single one has been due to the LED, but due to the voltage
regulating electronics.

A series resistor is MUCH more reliable

On Fri, Apr 2, 2021 at 1:08 PM Jim Walls via EV  wrote:

> On 04/02/2021 09:57, Lee Hart via EV wrote:
> > For fun, I just measured the current of my trailer's LED lights. At
> > 12vdc:
> >
> > brake lights: 100ma each (has 8 LEDs in each one)
> > tail lights: 80ma each (has 12 LEDs in each one)
> > side marker lights: 30ma each (has 4 LEDs in each one)
> >
> > So they apparently put 4 LEDs in a series string, with a dropping
> > resistor or circuit to take up the rest.
> >
> > Lee
> >
>
> Yep, for 12 volt DC systems, either three or four LEDs in series is
> pretty normal.  Those numbers make far more sense than the original post
> in this sub-thread that said 30mA for turn and brakes.
>
> --
> 73
> -
> Jim Walls - K6CCC
> j...@k6ccc.org
> Ofc:  818-548-4804
> http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/
> AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395
>
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Re: [EVDL] BYD Blade

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Has anyone found a nice source for "EV" face masks?
Its a good place to advertise.

bob


>
>
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Re: [EVDL] J1772 vs Nema flat blade insertion cycles for EV

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Easy way to tell (maybe) is to open it up and see if it has a
conventional small 60 Hz transformer to power its internal 12 V electronics.
If so, 240 VAC will likely overvoltage those low voltage circuits
(operating at 12 V).

On the other hand, if it does not have a small 12 v transformer, then it is
using a switching supply and will likely be OK.
But if they did it that way, then I would have expected them to put 120/240
V on the name plate.   Everything else in the J1772 spec is CURRENT related
and the mains voltage does not matter == Bob

On Sun, Mar 28, 2021 at 1:32 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> mark hanson via EV wrote:
> > Hi Lee etc,
> >
> > I also have a 2013 Leaf.  Did you make an adapter to go from the 120V
> plug
> > to the 14/50 240V plug on the Leaf's portable EVSE?  I know my Tesla
> > portable is rated for 32A at 240V max (just plugged in/works great) but I
> > didn't know the Leaf was rated for 240V (15A probably).
>
> I understand that it can be converted to 240vac, but I haven't tried it
> myself. The way we drive, 120v charging has been completely adequate.
>
> But I should give it a try. My garage is already set up for 240v
> charging, and I have two 120v EVSE cords; I could convert one to 240v
> just to see how it goes. :-)
>
> Lee Hart
>
> --
> All children are born engineers. Watch them at play. They're not
> just playing; they're experimenting, building and learning. That's
> engineering! Then we get them in school and squash it out of them.
> (Geoffrey Orsak, Southern Methodist University dean of engineering)
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
>
> --
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
>
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla question for Phil

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

When the refer defrost strip-heater kicks in and my house is on the 1.5 kW
inverter, it drops the load and we go dark.  But then simply cycling power
restores is because the drop of power resets the "energy-star" design will
NOT let the defrost come on when power is restored, so you probably get
another LONG delay before it tries again.  I have never understood the
strip heater timing whether it comes on once a day or 8 hours or a week.
And/or what the restart cycle is after a power outage.

Butr so far with our power outages lasting no more than a few minutes to
maybe an hour over the last ten years, I have not had the honor of watching
the defrost timing.
bob

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 3:55 PM Peter VanDerWal via EV 
wrote:

> Well, apparently the Tesla's onboard level-2 charger is (theoretically)
> capable of bidirectional capability.  So V2G/V2H might just require a
> software upgrade.
>
> Musk has stated that the Cybertrucks will have onboard AC outlets,
> possibly even 240V outlets capable of powering a small house, or perhaps an
> average size, energy efficient house.
>
> Not counting the oven, dryer, or EV charging, my house does not use more
> than ~3kw.  If I actively manage my loads I can keep it down below 1.5kw.
> A large part of the reason I'm making my house "smarter" is to allow the
> computer to shift loads in order to keep draw below 1.5kw.  I.E. don't
> allow the HP water heater and Mini-Splt to run at the same time, etc.
> Actually, as long as it's not below freezing out, and the Fridge doesn't
> go into defrost mode; I can run the Fridge, Freezer, HP Water Heater,
> Mini-Split and my home network without going over 1.5 kw.
>
> High priority loads:  https://vanderwal.us/GarageHist/Garage.html
>
>
> My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
>
> March 23, 2021 9:14 AM, "Willie via EV"  wrote:
>
> > On 3/23/21 11:02 AM, Jay Summet via EV wrote:
> >
> >> On 3/23/21 9:04 AM, Willie via EV wrote:
> >>> People have claimed that it would not be possible to get DC power
> >>> out of the charge connector on a Tesla.  I'm skeptical.  Will you
> >>> offer an opinion?
> >>
> >> Since Tesla's support DC fast charging, it means they have the
> >> capability to connect the battery directly to the fast charging ports on
> >> the charge connector (via contractors I assume). So the capability
> >> definitely exists, but you would have to have software support from
> >> Tesla or trick them into thinking they are connected to a supercharger
> >> (and if the car is programmed to shut off any "SuperChargers" that
> >> "steal" power  instead of providing it even that wouldn't work.)
> >
> > Yes, I agree it would likely be non-productive for a Tesla owner to try
> > to work at odds with Tesla. If Tesla doesn't want it to happen, it will
> > not likely happen. OTOH, I think (and hope) that Tesla will soon be
> > offering V2H/V2G in response to the VW challenge.
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Re: [EVDL] Tesla question for Phil

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

I really wanted to experiment with the DC power connector for V-2-G or
V-to-home till I measured my home under grid-down conditions and found that
my entiere house with LED lights, and the refrigerator draw only about 700
to 800 watts under emergency conditions and so I now have simple 1500W
inverers in my EV cars connected just to the 12v battery for house backup.
Further. here in central Maryland the grid has only gone down once for more
than a few minutes in TEN years.  The 3 kW UPS I have hooked up has NEVER
been used and the 10 kW generator I bought for the heatpumjp fully fails to
ever start as it has never been used.

Bob


On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 12:02 PM Jay Summet via EV 
wrote:

>
>
> On 3/23/21 9:04 AM, Willie via EV wrote:
> >  People have claimed that
> > it would not be possible to get DC power out of the charge connector on
> > a Tesla.  I'm skeptical.  Will you offer an opinion?
>
>
> Since Tesla's support DC fast charging, it means they have the
> capability to connect the battery directly to the fast charging ports on
> the charge connector (via contractors I assume). So the capability
> definitely exists, but you would have to have software support from
> Tesla or trick them into thinking they are connected to a supercharger
> (and if the car is programmed to shut off any "SuperChargers" that
> "steal" power  instead of providing it even that wouldn't work.)
>
> Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Took the Tesla Y plunge, no more Fossil Fools - Earth-Return

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 9:50 PM (-Phil-) via EV  wrote:

> Transformerless inverters are lower cost and higher efficiency, with the
> down side that
> that must have 600V isolation.  It isn't just that the iso check is
> "annoying", if there is leakage once the contactors close, it's likely that
> you'll destroy the power stage.
>

Helpme about isolation.   My uninformed understanding about connection one
side of the array to ground was to protect/detect against frame shorts
fron putting lethal 600v onto the frame of an array.  But then I noticed
the connection is made internally with a 1 amp fuse.

So u p to 1 A at high voltage can still flow in the ground loop b efore the
detector is lost.  Isnt there still potentially a lethal possibility?
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Re: [EVDL] Projects -- basement ground-source

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

For the digging cost please then consider using the ground only as a heat
source/sink for a heatpump.  Trying to use the ground temperature at
existing value has such a low delta-T as to be useless compared to the
cost.  Bob

On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 6:48 PM BobK via EV  wrote:

> Lee Hart, For my earth tubes I was thinking of at least 8 inches diameter.
> I’ve not decided on the number of tubes. The end away from the house would
> drain into a sump. The sump would be enough for a small sump pump that
> would get rid of the water. Any suggestion are welcome.
>
> Bobby Keeland
> Louisiana
>
> Sent from my iPhone 7
>
> > On Mar 21, 2021, at 1:28 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> >
> > Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:
> >> The cheapest DIY ground-source heating is to hang an old Air
> >> Conditioner from the floor joists of a popular central room in the house
> >> and cut a hole in the floor to connect the hot side of the AC to the
> room.
> >> The cold side remains in the basement air.  A 10,000 BTU AC unit
> becomes a
> >> 20,000 BTu heatpump
> >
> > Even easier; I leave my furnace's air intake open in the basement in the
> summer. The furnace blower pulls cooler air from the basement, runs it
> through the air conditioner, and it into the house. It has the additional
> benefit of reducing the humidity in the basement, where I'd otherwise need
> a dehumidifier.
> >
> > Then, there is my grandpa's solution. He lived in the basement. :-)
> >
> > Lee
> >
> > --
> > All children are born engineers. Watch them at play. They're not
> > just playing; they're experimenting, building and learning. That's
> > engineering! Then we get them in school and squash it out of them.
> > (Geoffrey Orsak, Southern Methodist University dean of engineering)
> > --
> > Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> >
> > --
> > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> > https://www.avast.com/antivirus
> >
> > ___
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Re: [EVDL] Projects -- basement ground-source

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

The cheapest DIY ground-source heating is to hang an old Air
Conditioner from the floor joists of a popular central room in the house
and cut a hole in the floor to connect the hot side of the AC to the room.
The cold side remains in the basement air.  A 10,000 BTU AC unit becomes a
20,000 BTu heatpump

This takes heat from the basement air which is ground sourced from the 4
walls and crawl space of the basement and bumps up the BTU to feed the
heated area.  I ran this for a decade from 9 PM to 7 AM on TOU metering so
that not only was it ground sourced, but also ran on 2 cent electricity.
No special controls other than an appliance timer.  The added heat to the
rooms above prevented the whole house thermostat from coming on and kept
the oil burner off for a huge savings.  Yes, the oil heat was used until 9
PM, but then this kludge kept the house warm and kept the oil from being
used at all the rest of the night.

And the basement barely got cooler since that is also where waste heat
fromthe laundry and oil boiler ended up as well.

The 2 cent at night to 10 cent during the day TOU was lost when they
deregulated the utility and then it became 9 cents vs 10 cents and hardly
worth it.  Besides, the AC unit died and it also had to have a complex
vane-switch and defronsting coil (old oven elmenet) to take care of
de-icing.

But dont overlook the huge ground-source potential of all that basement
surface if the basement is not inhabited.

On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 12:33 PM Bobby Keeland via EV 
wrote:

> Yes Peter VanDerWal (thanks for the reply) I am aware of all that you said.
> I was planning on using at least 4 smooth wall tubes that are buried about
> 10 feet deep with a downward slope away from the house. The earth tubes
> will be about 100 feet long, and the soil here is almost pure clay
> (southern Louisiana in the Atchafalaya Basin).
>
> A little over a year ago we had a heat source mini-split installed so we
> got a jump on being more efficient. The earth tube project has not actually
> physically started yet. It’s more of a thinking and study real life
> experiences at this point.
>
> Right now I’m more interested in working on the 1951 Chevy pickup (we
> actually use pickups as pickups rather than as a manly car). There is a guy
> on YouTube who is showing his complete process of moving a 1952 Chevy
> pickup onto an S-10 pickup frame. Something like that plus an electric
> motor and batteries (not lead acid) is what I have in mind.
>
> Another possible project is converting a riding lawn mower and Mantis
> tiller to battery electric. I watch Jehu Garcia a lot. There is never a
> shortage of possible projects.
>
> Bobby Keeland
> Not a lot of money, but I do have time and interest.
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 11:52 PM Peter VanDerWal 
> wrote:
>
> > Bobby, have you done any research on Earth Tubes?  Not just looking up
> > testimonials and anecdotes, but looked for actual studies?
> >
> > I was really yped about earth tubes for a while until I looked into them
> > and found a few studies.  I found a lot of people claiming that all they
> > did was dig 2 foot deep trenchs and burried 30 feet of tube and 'Wow,
> what
> > a difference'
> > But the actual studies with measurements, etc. tell a different story.
> >
> > First of all you need to go a LOT deeper than 2 feeet, 6-8 foot minimum.
> > One study I found was done in India as I recall, they were studying using
> > Earth Tubes to cool a green house.
> > They used 4 tubes 100 feet long, 8 foot deep spaced 6 feet apart. The fan
> > used to drive the air through them consumed 400-450 watts and ran 24
> hours
> > a day.  It was effective at the begining of summer, but by the middle of
> > summer the output air temps had climbed to around 80 degrees, the green
> > house temps were closer to 90 degrees.
> >
> > I also read lots of feedback from individuals that were having problems
> > with mold due to condensation in the earth tubes.  That is solvable, by
> > making sure the tubes angle down, away from the house and you have some
> way
> > to drain the moisture from them.
> >
> > My mini-split heat pump on the other hand uses about 1/2 the energy per
> > day to cool my house and output air temp is around 50-60 degrees an the
> > temp in the house stays below 76.  I could get it cooler, but it would
> use
> > more energy and I'm comfortable at that temp.
> >
> > So the mini-split is more effective, for less energy and a LOT less work
> > to install.  If you have to hire someone to dig the trenches, the
> > mini-split is probably cheaper.
> >
> > Sometimes the best solution is NOT the simplest solution.
> >
> > My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
> >
> > March 19, 2021 6:05 PM, "Bobby Keeland via EV" 
> wrote:
> >
> > > In a previous posting I said:
> > >  > >  > >  > >  > >
> >
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> 

Re: [EVDL] Projects, - EV's, solar and 365 VDC around the home

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

You hit the nail on the head.  The migration of all our high-power systems
to HV DC is the topic of my book (EV's, Solar', heatpumps, and all modern
power supplies). Any power device that uses "variable speed" such as new
airconditioners and other appliances are internally using 365 VDC which is
a great place to dump cheap DIY solar.  And to marry with our EV batteries.

Bob - Author http://aprs.org/Energy-Choices.html

On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 12:48 PM jerry freedomev via EV 
wrote:

>  Hi Peter and all,Earth tubes almost can't avoid moisture and molds making
> air versions dangerous to breathe air from them.  You really need a coolant
> based system, not air.Minisplits are a far better solution and some work
> directly from batteries now both in 48vdc and 365vdc nom.. I hear some
> variable AC ones can work from batteries as just rectified anyway for the
> variable speed inverter.I see a future where much of home high power loads
> run on 365vdc nominal directly from home solar, batteries and EVs packs
> both charging and using for home power with cheap DC-DCs pushing it where
> you want it to go in or out of the EV.And as a microgrid sharing bus.Though
> it's looking like V2G will be common next yr with VW and Lucid forcing
> Tesla, others to compete. .Jerry Dycus
>
> On Saturday, March 20, 2021, 09:52:16 PM PDT, Peter VanDerWal via EV <
> ev@lists.evdl.org> wrote:
>
>  Bobby, have you done any research on Earth Tubes?  Not just looking up
> testimonials and anecdotes, but looked for actual studies?
>
> I was really yped about earth tubes for a while until I looked into them
> and found a few studies.  I found a lot of people claiming that all they
> did was dig 2 foot deep trenchs and burried 30 feet of tube and 'Wow, what
> a difference'
> But the actual studies with measurements, etc. tell a different story.
>
> First of all you need to go a LOT deeper than 2 feeet, 6-8 foot minimum.
> One study I found was done in India as I recall, they were studying using
> Earth Tubes to cool a green house.
> They used 4 tubes 100 feet long, 8 foot deep spaced 6 feet apart. The fan
> used to drive the air through them consumed 400-450 watts and ran 24 hours
> a day.  It was effective at the begining of summer, but by the middle of
> summer the output air temps had climbed to around 80 degrees, the green
> house temps were closer to 90 degrees.
>
> I also read lots of feedback from individuals that were having problems
> with mold due to condensation in the earth tubes.  That is solvable, by
> making sure the tubes angle down, away from the house and you have some way
> to drain the moisture from them.
>
> My mini-split heat pump on the other hand uses about 1/2 the energy per
> day to cool my house and output air temp is around 50-60 degrees an the
> temp in the house stays below 76.  I could get it cooler, but it would use
> more energy and I'm comfortable at that temp.
>
> So the mini-split is more effective, for less energy and a LOT less work
> to install.  If you have to hire someone to dig the trenches, the
> mini-split is probably cheaper.
>
> Sometimes the best solution is NOT the simplest solution.
>
> My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
>
> March 19, 2021 6:05 PM, "Bobby Keeland via EV"  wrote:
>
> > In a previous posting I said:
> >  >  >  >  >
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Re: [EVDL] Projects

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

My Geo-source heatpump used four 300' deep wells of 4" diameter but the
drilling and pipe itself cost $14,000..  Bob

On Sun, Mar 21, 2021 at 12:41 PM Peri Hartman via EV 
wrote:

> Another thought, which might be more effective, is to drill vertically
> and insert a loop of small diameter pipe. For example, you could drill
> several 1.5" bores down 200 or 300 feet and insert a loop of 1/2" pex.
> I'm not sure how much drilling costs, but I know people are
> experimenting with this technique, particularly for use in urban areas.
>
> On advantage of deep bores is you'll hit water tables which will make a
> better heat sync both in the sense of better contact with the tubing and
> more mass for dissipation.
>
> Peri
>
> << Annoyed by leaf blowers ? https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Bobby Keeland via EV" 
> To: "Peter VanDerWal" 
> Cc: "Bobby Keeland" ; "Electric Vehicle Discussion
> List" 
> Sent: 21-Mar-21 9:31:12 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Projects
>
> >Yes Peter VanDerWal (thanks for the reply) I am aware of all that you
> said.
> >I was planning on using at least 4 smooth wall tubes that are buried about
> >10 feet deep with a downward slope away from the house. The earth tubes
> >will be about 100 feet long, and the soil here is almost pure clay
> >(southern Louisiana in the Atchafalaya Basin).
> >
> >A little over a year ago we had a heat source mini-split installed so we
> >got a jump on being more efficient. The earth tube project has not
> actually
> >physically started yet. It’s more of a thinking and study real life
> >experiences at this point.
> >
> >Right now I’m more interested in working on the 1951 Chevy pickup (we
> >actually use pickups as pickups rather than as a manly car). There is a
> guy
> >on YouTube who is showing his complete process of moving a 1952 Chevy
> >pickup onto an S-10 pickup frame. Something like that plus an electric
> >motor and batteries (not lead acid) is what I have in mind.
> >
> >Another possible project is converting a riding lawn mower and Mantis
> >tiller to battery electric. I watch Jehu Garcia a lot. There is never a
> >shortage of possible projects.
> >
> >Bobby Keeland
> >Not a lot of money, but I do have time and interest.
> >
> >
> >On Sat, Mar 20, 2021 at 11:52 PM Peter VanDerWal 
> wrote:
> >
> >>  Bobby, have you done any research on Earth Tubes?  Not just looking up
> >>  testimonials and anecdotes, but looked for actual studies?
> >>
> >>  I was really yped about earth tubes for a while until I looked into
> them
> >>  and found a few studies.  I found a lot of people claiming that all
> they
> >>  did was dig 2 foot deep trenchs and burried 30 feet of tube and 'Wow,
> what
> >>  a difference'
> >>  But the actual studies with measurements, etc. tell a different story.
> >>
> >>  First of all you need to go a LOT deeper than 2 feeet, 6-8 foot
> minimum.
> >>  One study I found was done in India as I recall, they were studying
> using
> >>  Earth Tubes to cool a green house.
> >>  They used 4 tubes 100 feet long, 8 foot deep spaced 6 feet apart. The
> fan
> >>  used to drive the air through them consumed 400-450 watts and ran 24
> hours
> >>  a day.  It was effective at the begining of summer, but by the middle
> of
> >>  summer the output air temps had climbed to around 80 degrees, the green
> >>  house temps were closer to 90 degrees.
> >>
> >>  I also read lots of feedback from individuals that were having problems
> >>  with mold due to condensation in the earth tubes.  That is solvable, by
> >>  making sure the tubes angle down, away from the house and you have
> some way
> >>  to drain the moisture from them.
> >>
> >>  My mini-split heat pump on the other hand uses about 1/2 the energy per
> >>  day to cool my house and output air temp is around 50-60 degrees an the
> >>  temp in the house stays below 76.  I could get it cooler, but it would
> use
> >>  more energy and I'm comfortable at that temp.
> >>
> >>  So the mini-split is more effective, for less energy and a LOT less
> work
> >>  to install.  If you have to hire someone to dig the trenches, the
> >>  mini-split is probably cheaper.
> >>
> >>  Sometimes the best solution is NOT the simplest solution.
> >>
> >>  My PGP public key: https://vanderwal.us/evdl_pgp.key
> >>
> >>  March 19, 2021 6:05 PM, "Bobby Keeland via EV" 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>  > In a previous posting I said:
> >>  >  >>  >  >>  >  >>  >  >>  >
> >>
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