Re: Mandela cult and mass media mythopoesis

The author of the essay say, definitively, yes. The original article is here: It is long but it is worth reading, to see how the myths of modernity generate violence by unrealistic expectations. http://standpointmag.co.uk/node/1575/full 2013/12/11, LizR : > Is this particular one destructive? >

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 9:45 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/10/2013 2:07 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 8:02 PM, meekerdb wrote: >>> >>> On 12/9/2013 1:35 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Dec 2013, at 22:53, Telmo Menezes wrote: > On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 6

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 10 Dec 2013, at 18:03, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 Telmo Menezes wrote: > You're avoiding my question. Why don't you also reject the MWI? If I am reluctant to answer your question it is because I've already done so many times in the past, but if you insist I will do so aga

Re: The Yes-Doctor Experiment for real

On 10 Dec 2013, at 20:20, George wrote: Hi List I haven't contributed to this list for a while but I thought you might be interested in this article from the Science Daily on line magazine Neural Prosthesis Restores Behavior After Brain Injury Yes, things progress. Nice to hear of you

Re: A definition of human consciousness

On 10 Dec 2013, at 20:40, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 3:26 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > This is exactly what UDA shows that comp *leads* to a reduction of the mind body problem into a body problem in arithmetic. I don't know what "comp" False. You know what it means. is

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 10 Dec 2013, at 20:03, meekerdb wrote: On 12/10/2013 12:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Do you agree that in Helsinki we have: Probability("I will feel to be a unique guy in an unique city") = 1 (assuming comp and all the default assumptions) ? It has the same problem. It is just move

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

On 10 Dec 2013, at 20:08, meekerdb wrote: On 12/10/2013 12:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 09 Dec 2013, at 23:28, meekerdb wrote: On 12/9/2013 12:06 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 12:57 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 12/9/2013 12:44 AM, LizR wrote: On 9 December 2013 20:56, m

Re: Bruno against Plato

On 10 Dec 2013, at 23:38, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Thanks for the clarification. You are welcome. But for what refer to the questions i asked, I find that my initial assumptions are broadly correct. I find the platonism of the UDA very different from the Platonism of Plato. It is more p

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

On 11 Dec 2013, at 02:23, LizR wrote: On 10 December 2013 09:06, Jason Resch wrote: Bell's theorm proves that local hidden variables are impossible which leaves only two remaining explanations that explain the EPR paradox: 1. Non-local, faster-than-light, relativity violating effects 2.

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 1:32 AM, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/10/2013 10:47 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 12:19 AM, meekerdb wrote: > >> On 12/10/2013 9:49 PM, Jason Resch wrote: >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 9:53 PM, meekerdb wrote: >> >>> On 12/10/2013 5:23 P

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 6:03 PM, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 Telmo Menezes wrote: > > > You're avoiding my question. Why don't you also reject the MWI? > > If I am reluctant to answer your question it is because I've already done > so many times in the past, but if you insist I wi

Re: Bruno against Plato

Not a bad achievement. Instead, the hypothesis that the living beings compute in order to solve evolutionary pressures is closer to the Plato world of ideas, Or specifically, the Plato-Aristotle syntesis of Thomas Aquinas. and also closer to dig knowledge for living, that it , at last, the purpose

MERRY CHRISTMAS !

MERRY CHRISTMAS ! USAF FLASH MOB at the National Air and Space Museum, Washington DC http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIoSga7tZPg&list=UUKX86dJGhTOn8NtRUqnATFQ Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000] See my Leibniz site at http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough --- This email is free fr

Simulations back up theory thst Universe is a hologram

Simulations back up *theory* that Universe is a hologram Nature.com At a black hole, Albert

That hateful subject, metaphysics

That hateful subject, metaphysics To deal with consciousness and experiences, which are mental, not physical, you have to go to that hateful subject, metaphysics, and only Leibniz has a good account of the perceiver, which is the experiencer not available to materialism. If you still believe ther

Re: Bruno against Plato

http://nocorrecto.blogspot.com.es/2011/11/why-women-like-bags-and-shoes-but-only.html 2013/12/11, Alberto G. Corona : > Not a bad achievement. > > Instead, the hypothesis that the living beings compute in order to > solve evolutionary pressures is closer to the Plato world of ideas, Or > specifica

Leibniz on sensory experience (my account)

Leibniz on sensory experience Leibniz maintained that all causation is mental. This appears to contradict sensory experiences such as being pricked by a pin, for the cause of the experience would seem to originate in the body with the prick. There are a number of resolutions to this apparen

Re: Bruno against Plato

Alberto, I agree with what you say below. In fact evolution needs arguably to presuppose computationalism. Computationalism explains that we have to extend the idea of evolution to the origin and development of the physical objects and laws, which will be used "later" by evolution. The laws

Re: The Yes-Doctor Experiment for real

Bruno: but the human will say "yes" to the doctor anyway, and without thinking to much on the theoretical consequences of the possible survival. Richard: I would always say no to the doctor because of the "no-cloning" theorem. I read your recent paper where you discuss how comp circumvents that th

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 3:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > Then you can't say that you will survive anything. We die at each instant > OK, but then you can't say that survival is important, or that the word means much of anything at all. > and comp is made trivial, > 'Comp" is not trivial, "comp"

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 5:40 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > We always feel that we are a single person > Yes but the copy that walked out of the duplicating chamber with you (or perhaps you are the copy and he is the original, no way to tell and no reason to care) also feels like a single person, and

Re: A definition of human consciousness

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 meekerdb wrote: >> But that's the beauty of consciousness theories, we can detect >> consciousness only in ourselves so there are no observed features that a >> consciousness theory must explain, > > > > Actually there are some observed features. A sharp blow to the head c

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 4:08 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > Determinism is far from "well established". >>> >> >> >>> It's a basic assumption in almost every scientific theory. >> > > >> In the most important theory in physics, Quantum Mechanics, no such > assumption is made, and despite a ce

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 11:58 AM, John Clark wrote: > On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 4:08 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> Determinism is far from "well established". >>> >>> >>> It's a basic assumption in almost every scientific theory. >>> >> >> >> In the most important theory in physics, Q

Re: Mandela cult and mass media mythopoesis

On 12/11/2013 12:22 AM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: The author of the essay say, definitively, yes. The original article is here: It is long but it is worth reading, to see how the myths of modernity generate violence by unrealistic expectations. http://standpointmag.co.uk/node/1575/full "True,

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12/11/2013 12:23 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 9:45 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 12/10/2013 2:07 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 8:02 PM, meekerdb wrote: On 12/9/2013 1:35 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 08 Dec 2013, at 22:53, Telmo Menezes wrote: On Sun, Dec

Re: The Yes-Doctor Experiment for real

On 12/11/2013 12:55 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 Dec 2013, at 20:20, George wrote: Hi List I haven't contributed to this list for a while but I thought you might be interested in this article from theScience Daily on line magazine Neural Prosthesis Restores

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

On 12/11/2013 1:13 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 Dec 2013, at 20:08, meekerdb wrote: On 12/10/2013 12:49 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 09 Dec 2013, at 23:28, meekerdb wrote: On 12/9/2013 12:06 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 12:57 PM, meekerdb

Re: A definition of human consciousness

Brent: *W h a t* consciousness? would you please describe your take (observing the caveat of Liz)? Whatever I could deduce from different peoples' (authors') mumblings (the contents?) boiled down in my 'generealization' to *"RESPONSE TO RELATIONS" *- no animal (human?) connotation, thinking, or

Re: The Yes-Doctor Experiment for real

*Yes - to the doctor?* I was always kept aback from agreeing, because I still believe to have included M O R E in my mind (brainfunctions, as you say) then whatever that good doctor and his device may supply. So I consider a mechanical substitution to the 'living' (what is it?) capabilities a re

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

On 12/11/2013 2:07 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 1:32 AM, meekerdb > wrote: On 12/10/2013 10:47 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 12:19 AM, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 12/10/2013 9:49 PM, Jas

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

On 12/11/2013 1:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 11 Dec 2013, at 02:23, LizR wrote: On 10 December 2013 09:06, Jason Resch > wrote: Bell's theorm proves that local hidden variables are impossible which leaves only two remaining explanations that explain th

Re: A definition of human consciousness

On 11 December 2013 17:34, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/10/2013 7:42 PM, LizR wrote: > > On 11 December 2013 10:24, meekerdb wrote: > >> On 12/10/2013 11:54 AM, John Clark wrote: >> >> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 7:33 PM, LizR wrote: >> >> > One needs a rigorous definition of what consciousness is,

Re: The Yes-Doctor Experiment for real

ISTM that "Yes Doctor" sums up comp. If a digital brain made below my substitution level *can* substitute for my organic one, then I literally have a 50% chance of waking up as the digital version. However if the Subst Level is quantum, no cloning stops it being actually possible. Although in this

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

On 11 December 2013 22:26, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 11 Dec 2013, at 02:23, LizR wrote: > > On 10 December 2013 09:06, Jason Resch wrote: > >> >> Bell's theorm proves that local hidden variables are impossible which >> leaves only two remaining explanations that explain the EPR paradox: >> >>

Re: Mandela cult and mass media mythopoesis

Whit episodic periods of massacres, genocides and other massive crimes, he would have added. I recommend you to add this to your mantra. these "little" inconveniences are what I was talking about in the last paragrah. But this is not the main point.. I recommend to read the article, that is the ke

Re: A definition of human consciousness

On 12/11/2013 12:56 PM, LizR wrote: On 11 December 2013 17:34, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 12/10/2013 7:42 PM, LizR wrote: On 11 December 2013 10:24, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 12/10/2013 11:54 AM, John Clark wrote: On Sun, D

Re: The Yes-Doctor Experiment for real

On 12/11/2013 1:18 PM, LizR wrote: ISTM that "Yes Doctor" sums up comp. If a digital brain made below my substitution level /can/ substitute for my organic one, then I literally have a 50% chance of waking up as the digital version. However if the Subst Level is quantum, no cloning stops it be

Re: A definition of human consciousness

On 12/11/2013 9:26 AM, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: >> But that's the beauty of consciousness theories, we can detect consciousness only in ourselves so there are no observed features that a consciousness theory m

Re: Mandela cult and mass media mythopoesis

On 12/11/2013 1:32 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Whit episodic periods of massacres, genocides and other massive crimes, he would have added. I recommend you to add this to your mantra. Yes, religious wars and genocides based on theology. That's why Dacey referred to "post-Christian" europe.

Re: Mandela cult and mass media mythopoesis

On 12 December 2013 08:47, meekerdb wrote: > "True, secular values can turn a civilization inside out. In > post-Christian Europe, entire nations have been plunged into endemic > health, skyrocketing education and hopelessly low rates of violent crime." > --- Austin Dacey, NY Times 3 Feb 2006

Re: Mandela cult and mass media mythopoesis

On 12 December 2013 11:49, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/11/2013 1:32 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > >> Whit episodic periods of massacres, genocides and other massive >> crimes, he would have added. I recommend you to add this to your >> mantra. >> > > Yes, religious wars and genocides based on theolo

Re: Mandela cult and mass media mythopoesis

On 12/11/2013 4:14 PM, LizR wrote: On 12 December 2013 11:49, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 12/11/2013 1:32 PM, Alberto G. Corona wrote: Whit episodic periods of massacres, genocides and other massive crimes, he would have added. I recommend you to add th

Re: The Yes-Doctor Experiment for real

On 12 December 2013 11:25, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/11/2013 1:18 PM, LizR wrote: > > ISTM that "Yes Doctor" sums up comp. If a digital brain made below my > substitution level *can* substitute for my organic one, then I literally > have a 50% chance of waking up as the digital version. > > Howev

Re: A definition of human consciousness

On 12 December 2013 11:20, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/11/2013 12:56 PM, LizR wrote: > > Not exactly. Consciousness has been *defined* as a "bundle of sensory > impressions" - I think this was originally David Hume - but it has also > been defined as something else, which I guess would be called the

Re: Mandela cult and mass media mythopoesis

On 12 December 2013 13:28, meekerdb wrote: > "The party as such represents the point of view of a positive > Christianity without binding itself to any one particular > confession." > Adolf Hitler, in the Nazi manifesto: > Wow, some very nice quotes there, I didn't realise Nazism w

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On 12 December 2013 08:57, meekerdb wrote: > > I don't disagree with any of that. But by providing a with an id prior to > the fork and then testing after the fork you are effectively modeling a > "soul" that is not duplicated but rather belongs to one of the copies and > not the other; and the

Re: Simulations back up theory thst Universe is a hologram

I can never work out where this hologram is. (Or is there no "is" for it to be at?) On 12 December 2013 00:27, Samiya Illias wrote: > Simulations back up *theory* that Universe is a > hologram

Re: Atheism is wish fulfillment

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 2:39 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/11/2013 2:07 AM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 1:32 AM, meekerdb wrote: > >> On 12/10/2013 10:47 PM, Jason Resch wrote: >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 12:19 AM, meekerdb wrote: >> >>> On 12/10/2013 9:49 P

Re: That hateful subject, metaphysics

"I wanna get metaphysicsal." On 12 December 2013 00:37, Roger Clough wrote: > That hateful subject, metaphysics > > To deal with consciousness and experiences, > which are mental, not physical, you have to go > to that hateful subject, metaphysics, and > only Leibniz has a good account of the

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

Liz, In forking MWI worlds, your ID is constantly changing as it depends on various quantum states. Your detailed nature is never duplicated. Every fork is a change from your previous state. If comp supports MWI, why should your ID ever stay the same since you are constantly forking with or withou

Re: The Yes-Doctor Experiment for real

On 12 December 2013 11:53, LizR wrote: > On 12 December 2013 11:25, meekerdb wrote: >> >> On 12/11/2013 1:18 PM, LizR wrote: >> >> ISTM that "Yes Doctor" sums up comp. If a digital brain made below my >> substitution level can substitute for my organic one, then I literally have >> a 50% chance o

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 10:24 AM, John Clark wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 7, 2013 at 3:51 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > Comp is the belief (hope, assumption, theory) that you can survive when >> saying yes to a doctor who proposed to you a digital computer brain >> transplant. >> > > If that were all

Re: How can a grown man be an atheist ?

On Wed, Dec 11, 2013 at 1:57 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/11/2013 12:23 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > >> On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 9:45 PM, meekerdb wrote: >> >>> On 12/10/2013 2:07 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 8:02 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 12/9/2013 1:35 AM, Brun

Re: Santa Klaus does exist!

Thanks Bruno. As I understand it step 8's movie-graph argument is making a point similar to the "implementation problem" chalmers discusses in the paper at http://consc.net/papers/rock.html -- basically the problem is that there seems to be no good way to decide whether a given physical system "imp