For establishing the upper limit of the maximal number of commutative
groups on sets, the logarithm well pictures the decreasing probabilities of
finding a new constellation of symbols, by the ever increasing number of
factors in the divisor.
Hans von Baeyer schrieb am So., 3. Juni 2018 21:53:
There were some reports in clinical psychology, about 30 years ago, that
relate to the question whether a machine can pretend to be a therapist.
That was the time as computers could newly be used in an interactive
fashion, and the Rogers techniques were a current discovery.
Dear Michel and Sung,
Your discussion is way above my head in the jargon and background
knowledge. Please bear with me while a non-mathematician tries to express
some observations that regard symmetry.
Two almost symmetrical spaces appear as Gestalts, expressed by numbers, if
one orders and
n A and B adds up to make the whole (e.g.,
> the forest-tree pair), and (ii) complementarity wherein A or B is the
> whole, depending on how the whole is observed (e.g., light as either wave
> or particle depending on how it is measured). I can send you the reference
> if needed.
Very encouraging the discussion of the difficulties human perception poses
while trying to consolidate opposites.
The existence of the mental image is built on contrasts, so no wonder we
find it hard to get a good grip on the mechanisms at work consolidating
This is a literary level exposition of a view, of the category of
Confessiones. The confidence of a philosopher, like that of a poet, that
his words can be understood, even though they are of a subjective,
individual perspective, is well rewarded if indeed the worldview can be
The question „Is information physical?” relates to the equivalence between
two mental/emotional contents of the brain, and can be compared to “Is A =
B ?” at first sight. In the form the question is posed, it is rendered in a
more empathic fashion in the form “Does A contain a sufficiently large
;> The whole physicalness is indeed the arithmetic seen from the internal
>> arithmetical beings, but the person attached to them are not arithmetical
>> not even analytical (not even third person describable in any way).
>> I am aware that what I say contradicts 150
> On 15/03/18 10:11, Karl Javorszky wrote:
> >To me, it does not appear necessary to make a distinction between
> “reality” and “data”
> That's a defensible position, but it does constrain 'reality' to 'that
> which we can p
Music : Noise = Meaning : Data
if one likes contemporary music, one is being well cared for in Vienna,
specifically during the November festival “wien modern”. The concert cycle
“klangforum wien” also introduces creative approaches to what is the state
of the art in creating
Formalism is nice, but it can be unreasonable.
Your example of 2 naked men on a beach can be made simpler by adding a dog,
a sausage and a whistle.
Person A (the dog's owner) sounds the whistle. The dog is apparently used
to being fed and runs up, waging its tail.
let us work thru your Armenia paradox. It says:
" Suppose an earthquake occurred in Armenia last night and all of the main
media of the world have given the report about it. On the second day, two
students A and B are putting forward a dialogue facing the newspaper
Thank you for bringing up 3 main points of the discussion:
1)“ … the most represented position among FISers, i.e., that
information is an objective, quantitative, physical measure linked to
2)"Information = data + something in and by
Accounting is not a science
There is an old joke about the mafia boss, who needs a new accountant.
Proband 1 is asked: how much is 2+2? Answer: 4. Next candidate: How much is
2+2? Answer: anything between 3 and 5. No good. Next candidate, same
question. Answer: whatever you wish, boss. He gets
Improvements are done if there is a need to do so, innovations come about
as a result of creativity, not as answers to an existing need, but as
voluntary exertions that satisfy curiosity.
Taking your example of having enumerated all signals (phonemes, letters,
Using the logical language to understand Nature
The discussion in this group refocuses on the meaning of the terms
“symbol”, “signal”, “marker” and so forth. This is a very welcome
development, because understanding the tools one uses is usually helpful
when creating great works.
living beings as well as their biochemical
> Il 1 febbraio 2018 alle 17.16 Karl Javorszky <karl.javors...@gmail.com>
> ha scritto:
> Biodiversity and Cartography
Biodiversity and Cartography
The excellent summary by Pedro of the session just past highlights several
different areas of processes, which appear to be interrelated at least in
some methodological ways. Pedro says in effect: “… systems such as
circulatory, pulmonary, renal, brain, etc. …”
Dear Sungchul and Colleagues,
Let me join the harmonious and musical – as Francesco has put it – concert
among us, trying to understand and formalize our diverging concepts of what
Sungchul writes: “… DNA viewed as a set of linear sequences of genes …”.
This we all agree on. We
Dear Professor Torday,
thank you for your insightful analysis of the complex system which is
genetics. Your viewpoints cover from the molecular, cellular, physiological
level up to that of cosmic changes affecting the whole of the Earth. Your
work is truly a tour d’horizon of the subject.
using which the
methods of producing differing more-dimensional commutative assemblies
quasi-bijective to changes in sequences can be easily read off. The tool
you may find practical for your further research is at your disposal,
2017-11-29 20:15 GMT+01:00 Karl Javorszky
Happiness is a Tautology
There are very many aspects, levels, perspectives to a discussion that
deserves its name. We all work on understanding a system of highly complex
phenomena, which we call life. A part of it is, or it does, information, a
part of it
Wishful Thinking Reflected in the Sumerian Concept of Numbers
To be better prepared to understand the roots of our numbering conventions,
we have proposed to re-imagine the intellectual innovations achieved by the
Sumerians, while they introduced the concept of positional
*Properties of Places and of Objects*
*We have seen in this chatroom that there is recognisance of the need to
come up with something dramatically new and innovative in the field of
information theory, but also, that having been educated in a specific
fashion, it is not easy to think new
1. Il figaro autobarbando
The split between the role of the barber and the person of the barber can
be massaged into a split between form and substance.
Like roles are not additive, neither are forms. (A grandfather who is a
neighbour are not 2 persons.)
Like a person can be more (important,
your rightful indignation will be even deeper when you consider that the
official important and valuable discussion among the most prominent and
recognised eminent functionaries of highly respected institutions has been
repeatedly disturbed by boring patterns of observations
Data is that what we see by using the eyes. Information is that what we do
not see by using the eyes, but we see by using the brain; because it is the
background to that what we see by using the eyes.
Data are the foreground, the text, which are put into a context by the
1. A historic parallel: a cultural handicap
We are at Mendel again. There is an unmistakable parallel between a single
person trying to drive attention of members of a learned society to general
rules and principles that are discernible on multitudes of objects in the 19
th century and a
n. So, it should have the form component of the
> object (syntactic information), the meaning component of the object
> (semantic information), and the utility component of the object with
> respect to the subject's goal (pragmatic information). Only at this stage,
> the "meaning&qu
> The perceived information is the information, perceive by the subject from
> the object information. So, it should have the form component of the
> object (syntactic information), the meaning component of the object
> (semantic information), and the utility component of the object
Well-informed vs. Well-dated
Let me go into psychology on the distinction Krassimir raised. We have
quite different associations on “She is a well-informed person” compared to
“She is a well-dated person”.
One wonders, whether the connotations of “even” and “odd” (in German:
Data is that what we see by using the eyes.
Information is that what we do not see by using the eyes, but we see by
using the brain; because it is the background to that what we see by using
>From “Natural Orders”:
18.104.22.168 Information is
is farther away in the shade.)
Let us take 5 garden peas and order them according to any of their main
Case Nr. 1:
Garden pea nr.
phlogiston and destiny, and spend time usefully by looking into relations
among natural numbers. The time will certainly come when people will
understand that science is not glamour. Hollywood is glamour. Science is
Thanks to MDPI, a simple google entry “mdpi karl javorszky
1) Let me second to the point Alex raises:
machines, computers, do exchange information. It would be against cultural
conventions to say that the notification that the refrigerator sends to
your phone's app "to-do-list" of the content "milk only 0.5 liter
available" is not an information.
Thank you, I will reply to your e-mail as soon as possible!
Am 18.03.2017 18:40 schrieb "Jerry LR Chandler" :
> In response to the message posted below, I received the following response
Alex asks to contribute to his writing on Gestalt, based on Vedic teachings
relating to how we memorise texts. Not knowing anything about the Vedic
part of it, let me summarise what used to be accepted wisdom on Gestalt in
psychology: this without any claim to completeness or
Information and Wittgenstein
We should keep the self-evident in focus and refrain from descending into a
philosophical nihilism. We are, after all, reasonable people, who are able
to use our intelligence while communicating, and usually we understand each
other quite well. The idea, that
Thank you, Jerry, for pointing out the excellent treatise by Hempel &
Oppenheim on the Logic of Explanation. As I understand their viewpoint, the
ultimate explanation refers to a system of facts that are known to all who
use that system in which the explanation is placed. The
Thank you for the excellent discussion on a central issue of epistemology.
The assertion that topology is a primitive ancestor to mathematics needs to
The assertion maintains, that animals possess an ability of spatial
orientation which they use intelligently. This
e patterns here
referred to, it is necessary to order a collection and then order it some
more until it becomes well-ordered, and watch the conflicts that are
immanent to order, namely its alternatives and its background. This is
simple, archaic and instructive.
2016-11-30 8:46 GMT+01:00 Karl
The noble conquest of choosing the right method of understanding
information divides this learned society. Some argue that pre-Platonic
approaches towards understanding Nature are pre-scientific and therefore
can be dismissed out of hand.
Let us imagine that the Neanderthals have
Sorry for disturbing you with this test text.
A lengthy response to Josph's statements in the discussion about
Commutativity has not made it thru the spam filter.
Maybe, next week it can be persuaded to obey its human masters.
Nice weekend to you (if you read this)
> complex processes does your approach NOT apply?
> Thank you.
> - Original Message -
> *From:* Karl Javorszky <karl.javors...@gmail.com>
> *To:* Joseph Brenner <joe.bren...@bluewin.ch>
> *Cc:* Terrence Deacon <dea...@
Well, Joseph, you don't have to go far to get the desired definition of
information as an operator (produced quantity).
The only prerequisite is to be ready to discard the practice, ideas,
philosophy and ideology of the definitions relating to commutativity.
This is heresy, I understand. On the
now there is a voice discussing the concepts and methods of counting. This
is highly encouraging.
Taking together with the overall theme of "Mechanical Information in DNA"
of the discussion, it seems that - at least some of - members of FIS begin
to address the quastions of HOW the
Just a small detail on the information density of food (air, water, sensory
input, etc.) in medicine:
The DNA has a high informational value for the organism. Can it be said
that poison has also an informational value?
Can the de-constructive effect of a substance quantified based on the same
In the present Interlude after the session chaired by Lou on Symmetry and
before the coming one, allow me to enlarge on something Bruno raised.
*Then this confirms the "computationalist theory of everything", which is
given by any formalism, like Robinson Arithmetic (the rest
in time without observation is the structure
> of this collection/superposition of possibilities.
> It does not confuse possibility with actuality then the model has clarity.
> Of course it is a mystery why this model works as well as it does!
> Lou K.
> On Mar 26, 2016, at 1:
Thanks for the invitation to elaborate on the concept of quantum and how it
connects to Wittgenstein’s taboo words and information.
We may have problems understanding the concept of a quantum because the
idea appears to be non-expressible by rational, logical speech. The grammar
Dear FIS Colleagues,
1. Are the facts complicated or is our interpretation of the facts
again, the discussion centres on interpretations of Nature. How do we
picture some processes of Nature – like, specifically, the workings of
genetics and biology generally -, and which
Gyuri Darvas' Symmetry Festival is a perfect place to exchange ideas about
how the many aspects treated in FIS can be understood in a neutral and
interpersonally portable manner.
Pedro's department could give a second try modeling biological processes by
observing groups that can be built on
Dear Dr. Isiegas,
let me offer some proposals as to the underlying concepts that
differentiate treatment of information in the technical and in the biologic
The neuronal process is both sequential and commutative: commutative in the
sense that chemical reactions take place
the goal of our interactions is to
a) Learn from each other,
b) Instruct each other,
c) Move forward the cause of science,
d) Move forward the cause of one’s own,
e) Feel good.
Each of us is an individual, so there will be individual weights to the
Very sympathetic on the concept of travelers is that the basic model is
that of a dynamic system, as opposed to a Newtonian one, wherein everything
stays put or keeps on continuing as having been instructed to do. For the
bourgeois, the travelers have a connotation of mystery. They follow paths
as indicated here in the list some 2-3 months ago, I 'd like to organise a
Its title would be:
Explaining the Combinatorics behind the Translation of the Information
Content of the DNA by using Advanced Arithmetic
Would you please make it possible for participants to
and then phase 2 is reserved for calls for papers and else.
you might write a call for papers.
Am 06.10.2014 um 16:20 schrieb Karl Javorszky karl.javors...@gmail.com:
as indicated here in the list some 2-3 months ago, I 'd like to organise a
The bookkeeping exactitude refers to the number and kind of logical
If the DNA is such-and-such, the cell cannot be outside the logical limits
that are the accounting equivalents of such-and-such.
If the cell is such-and-such, the DNA cannot be otherwise than in a form
that is the
good that FIS is up again after this computer glitch.
It is encouraging, that since the resurrection the focus of FIS appears to
be sharpened. Let me quote Pridi: “… brainstorming session that would
include pure researchers and application oriented guys … … business people
The abstract and the concrete fight, because the abstract cannot presently
picture the concrete flexibly and exactly enough.
Connecting to the main thema of this session, individuality can be used to
clarify the tension. A person, belonging to many subgroups in his universe,
welcome new colleagues. Pedro has over the years built a scientific
community that is a pleasant and awakening environment for the
There has always been a tension between the empirical and the abstract in
FIS. The name of the setup is Foundations of Information Science.
the individual being included in various groups is a serious question of
combinatorics and number theory. In an abstract fashion, one may pose the
question as follows:
having n distinguishable objects, we start a process of assigning some
symbols to them. Symbols that are assigned to all
Cointinuing Bob's discourse on language and words, the next step was done
by Wittgenstein, who said that as tokens, words can be represented by
numbers. This is a resurrecting of Pythagoras' statement, that Nature is
representable by natural numbers and their harmonies.
It is important to keep in
of nuomenon) can be seen as an
inexhaustible source of possible phenomena.
What do you think?
From: Karl Javorszky karl.javors...@gmail.com
Reply-To: karl.javors...@gmail.com karl.javors...@gmail.com
Date: Friday, August 30, 2013 11:26 AM
To: Pedro C. Marijuan
As Krassimir has pointed out, the term information is inseparable from
the human utilising (communicating, sending/receiving/evaluating) the
To say Information is that difference that makes a difference is like
saying Cookies are what produce an excellent sensation in the mouth or
Step Eleven of* Learn to Count in Twelve Easy Steps*
What has happened previously (pls. see http://32o2m99e.utawebhost.at)
The circumstances under which Genetics can take place are regulated by
order rules that govern both places to [kinds of] amounts and [kinds of]
Step Seven of *Essay On Order* (formerly: Learn to Count in *Twelve Easy
What has happened previously:
During a reordering, elements change place. In most reorderings, the
procedure involves more than one or two elements; these stay resp. exchange
places directly. Usually,
Step Two of *Learn to Count in Twelve Easy Steps*
*What happened previously:*
We have introduced additional describing aspects of the logical sentence
a+b=c. Next to a,b,c, we also make use of u=b-a, k=b-2a, t=2b-3a, q=a-2b,
s=17-(a+b|c), w=2a-3b. For a graphical presentation, see:
Theories needs theories do be interpreted, except that we must start from
simple agreements, on elementary arithmetic for example, to exploit that
End Bruno Begin Karl
Also, we need an agreement what to concentrate on while the communication
is made. We have agreed to use
the talk here going about a possible curriculum, I have assembled one. This
is of course only an outline but should give a realistic idea about the
half-steps needed to grasp what we understand under information. I'd look
forward working on this project. Asking for your kind tolerance, I
Let me systematise the requirements and conditions raised so far and then
discuss a proposal:
(maybe there will be a possibility to attach attachments to the postings.
The following should be an attachment, where I recapitulate the points
previous speakers have
these last months my role in the group dynamics in Fis has been a
destructive one. Ever so often, my contribution had an irritating effect,
as the idea has been proposed that the current discussion is in itself
useless, because the underlying concepts are inexact, due to a coarse
On Form Conveyed By Data
Among the terms in the question form conveyed by data the term data is
the least ambiguous.
We will doubtlessly agree that 1,2,3,... are data
Whether a sequence 123456...16 is in a different form to a sequence e.g.
42315...11 is a subject of semantics.
We know that
taking the risk of repeating an idea that has been advanced here in FIS a
number of times, I'd like to offer answers to Michhel's questions:
Michel: Now, I ask you the following: please can you provide an extremely
simple example (the most simple you could imagine) of situation
Very Unfrequently Asked Questions
We have proposed a rethink of the procedure of additions. We state
that setting a1+b1=c=a2+b2 with a1#a2 (that is, saying that between
2+5 and 3+4 there is no real difference and ignoring this difference
carries no costs and working on this difference is a waste
please let me contribute to the summary of this session. Of the
multi-faceted work we have done, I'd like to touch but two points: a.
applicability and code, b. time.
To have a businessman in our group is a blessing. We are reminded that
science is not only a pastime but should bring
the contrasting views between Loet’s understanding of order as an
implication of information and of the alternative which deducts information
from order are in no real opposition. Rather they reflect differing
perspectives, like the tradition of e.g. measuring a room from a middle
thank you for the widening of this discussion.
Order and Information
Let us not close this session on the historical perspective of the
modern concept of Science yet. Loet’s thoughtful remarks about the
relation between information and order bring us back to some deep
Thanks to Pedro for his remarks about our collaboration which now
extends some 16 years. At that time, I was terminating a job as senior
systems analyst with the IAEA and took up again a question I was
addressing after doing my PhD in psychology and statistics. The
question was: “How is
Limits of Glue
Joe:...that existence and energy are primitive and numbers something derived.
Yes of course. We know that Nature exists and has manifold properties.
We speak about our experiences with Nature. To make certain that we
understand each other clearly, we use words
On Information Theory - Interested in Contributing or Chairing the Session
Dear Pedro and Colleagues,
let me propose a session on Information Theory. We could
* define the order concept
* define information being a specific order being (not being) the case
* show ways of numerical assignments
Please allow me to respectfully disagree with many of you. The term
'information' can well be defined by stringent logical-mathematical methods.
It will, however, need agreement on the calssification of the kinds of
In preparation to an answer to the questions
On the difference between natural numbers and theories:
The tool offered for use is based on natural numbers. It is devoid of any
interpretations aside the interpretation relating to common axes that are
rectangular. It is pleasing that Stan sees many ways to use the
interdependence among natural
the term string as mentioned by Joseph triggers a comment.
We can use the term string like any of the terms sqrt(), sin(),route
between(), etc. The term string does have a solid concept behind it, but,
alas, it needs more arguments. A string is to be observed to connect
how closely a theory of information must be wedded to physics.
Physics is a comprehensive model of Nature. If Nature obeys 1 (one)
comprehensive set of interrelated logical facts, then physics' partial
results (like optics, thermodynamics, electricity, solid state mechanics,
the discussion here is excitingly interesting from the standpoint of formal
logic. The points that one may comment on regard:
totality of structures interacting with one another
There was some truth in this epic. The Spanish were more elegant and
flexible. The group ballet coordination was lighter. They deserved it well.
2010/7/12 Pedro C. Marijuan pcmarijuan.i...@aragon.es
Dear FIS colleagues,
More than a soccer match? Please, have a glance at the
it appears that the basic mechanism of the regulation at work in genetics
has been found and the logic can be explained and made quite understandable
- even for those who believe themselves to be challenged in numerical
There is Big Money in this, as the explanation
What, exactly, is the hypothesis?
We state, as a hypothesis I. - Basics - , that:
a) human knowledge arises from simplifications of neural impressions into
b) specific communicable patterns arise regularly in temporal connections
solving the puzzles of our generation certainly requires a co-ordinated
effort from many sciences. Research into the functions of the human brain
has unearthed some perceptional artefacts of humans. These methods of
perceptions are optimised for the tasks of biologic entities -
The model proposed for numeric treatment of information answers following
points raised by Shannon and Logan:
The inspiration for adopting the word entropy in information theory comes
from the close resemblance between Shannon's formula and the very similar
formula from thermodynamics:
Let me add to Igor's points about instability:
the other hand, is essential ... It creates informational entropy and gives
a momentum to
material/energy entropy production ...
redundancy/diversity DOES NOT GET CREATED it isd always there, but we choose
to neglect it,
- Original Message -
*From:* karl javorszky [EMAIL PROTECTED]
*Sent:* Thursday, March 08, 2007 1:00 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Fis] Continuing Discussion of Social and Cultural
Let me add to Igor's points about instability:
the other hand
the discussion about complexity leads us back to our basic assumptions. The
core point appears to be, how we perceive a): the world, and b): what we
think about the world, and c): how a) and b) fit together. This can be
formalised into a) how we feel, b) how we think, c) how
the discussion appears to move in a very interesting direction, connecting
the experiences learnt by the kid with the subject the kid learned. How this
subtle connection influences our concepts about Nature is a central
In my contributions in the last few years,
In your last posting, you said:
SS: Of course, the origin of the genetic system is arguably the most
outstanding problem facing natural science. It seems that, other than the
(to me) unconvincing RNA World idea, there is no compelling model of it.
The model that the RNA
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