Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Check out the following website for details. http://www.7128.com/ the games require a customised gaming environment that is also sold by the company. The games also seen to be cross-platform. Pranav -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of shaun everiss Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 11:58 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games what games are these? At 01:44 p.m. 6/03/2009, you wrote: Hi Eleanor, This is most interesting. I will now have to take a second look at your games. smile Pushing keys though does not go far enough. If I do play a game adapted for dragon, I would rather use natural language commands like pick up item etc. Pranav --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Many 7-128 Software games are able to be played using Dragon Naturally Speaking. Any game that has an accessibility rating of MI can be played using voice commands. Eleanor Robinson 7-128 Software www.7128.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Dear Mani, I am responding to an email you send to the Audyssey list about accessible mainstream gaming. I am a researcher in this area at Loughborough University and would like to tell you about some of our work, which resulted in the first successful adaptation for blind gamers of a mainstream first-person-shooter game for the sighted. We -- myself and co-developer Sabahattin Gucukoglu -- started work on what is now known as AudioQuake in 2003 and by 2004 blind people could actually play the game Quake, by id Software. However, we were keen to prove that not only could blind people play the games, but that they could also be integrated into the gaming community. To this end, we began working on supporting Internet play (co-operative or competitive) and making the tools used to modify the game accessible as well. This started with modding tools that change the programming of the game to introduce new weapons, enemies, items and so on -- and a mod already exists for AudioQuake, called JediQuake. In 2008 we finally completed work on a prototype level description system that allows blind people to develop levels (new environments) for the game. This is a very popular passtime amongst sighted gamers, but the tools used are inherently visual so we have taken a different approach. All of the game and tools we have developed are available for free under an open-source licence (see http://www.agrip.org.uk/ ). AudioQuake has already received some media attention (Wired, InSight Radio) and been exhibited at Sight Village (2004, 2005). We also used it as the basis for a series of workshops at the 2005 International Camp on Communications and Computers, which is held every year to help prepare blind and vision-impaired college-leavers for university. Unfortunately we have had very little time to work on developing AudioQuake, or applying the principles to later games, due to my being involved in a serious road accident in 2006. I am currently working as a research associate on a project on improving accessibility to computers for older people to fund the remainder of my Ph.D. studies. We are always trying to recruit more people to our project and hope that because of its open-ness, people will be able to learn how to apply these techniques to newer games. There are now quite a few organisations campaigning for improved accessibility in mainstream games, such as the International Game Developers' Association (IGDA) Game Accessibility Special Interest Group and, though they have made some serious headway, there is a long way to go. I hope that this has been interesting and of use for your work. I would be happy to provide you with more information about any of the above if it will help with your research. best regards, Matthew -- Matthew Tylee Atkinson http://mta.agrip.org.uk/ --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Pranav Lal was wondering about games that could be used with Dragon Naturally Speaking. All 7-128 games that are accessibility rated MI can be operated using Dragon. Just set the GameBook control setting to voice control. That will draw a circle around the specific key to control the button you want to push. Just put Dragon in the command mode and speak that key name and you can play our games. Eleanor Robinson 7-128 Software www.7128.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi Eleanor, This is most interesting. I will now have to take a second look at your games. smile Pushing keys though does not go far enough. If I do play a game adapted for dragon, I would rather use natural language commands like pick up item etc. Pranav --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi, I am currently using Dragon NaturallySpeaking and J-say. I have been looking around to see which games I could play using Dragon NaturallySpeaking. one possible option is lone woolf from GMA games. I am open to trying other options. For that matter, I had considered trying mysteries of the ancients but, that requires holding down keys which is a tad tricky to do with Dragon at this time. Pranav -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Ken Sent: Tuesday, March 03, 2009 12:42 PM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Take another look at Dragon--if you know how to speak with good diction it is very accurate even before using the training mode. One of these days I'll have to try an IF game with it just for kicks. Do you live near Sandusky Ohio, or are you planning a trip to Cedar Point? Receive a massage at very competitive rates--$40 per hour for a revitalizing therapeutic massage, $65 per house call--any time, anywhere (within reason.) Call 419-577-7973 I'll ease your pain and discomfort, loosen and mobilize your stiff joints, relax your achy muscles, and help you let go of stress, depression, and nervous anxiety... Ken Downey, LMT President of Blind Comfort! The Caring Without the Staring and DreamtechInteractive - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:27 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi. Tom. Intreaguing indeed. I certainly take the point about adding captioning for sounds in games being comparatively symple, but I believe the problem here is that this isn't often done, and as games get more inclined to use full animated cutscenes or spoken dialogue people with hereing imparements are having more problems. Perception of disability and what harm it precisely does is actually part of my phd thesis, sinse i'm attempting to formulate a new deffinition and approach for looking at disability which can be then used in solving certain problems. One odd thing though, is that blindness is rarely referenced in the academic literature on disability itself. There's a lot said about deafness, and quite a bit about paraplegia, but comparatively litle on blindness, and I do admit this contributes to my belief about game access issues for those disabilities being more obviously addressed by devs. Also, there is the question of what games are looked at. I'd guess interactive fiction games for example would be near impossible for someone who couldn't quickly use the keyboard, and while they could play many online games, and indeed some like the flash ones which are not Vi accessible, they'd have issues every time they were required to fill in a text field. while I know there are solutions to this sort of problem, how efficient they might be, and how much effort they take to work could be another matter. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
aah, this may be why decent into madness and last crusade and sonic zoom are liked by one of my friends. At 06:56 p.m. 2/03/2009, you wrote: If you want these games to be more accessible, you have to put up a front. The talking calculators we had in the 80s were horrible because they were for the blind until Sharp somehow got the idea that the sighted folks would really like to be able to punch buttons and hear the numbers so they didn't have to look up from their books or whatever when they were calculating--so if the games talked more, that would be less reading for a sighted community for whom reading would take away somewhat from the enwrapping qualities of the game. I especially wish that the WII had text to speech, because the Miis always move around, and in Wii sports, the only way to play the big boys is to become one yourself--get a lot of points. That's why in boxing, you can punch three or four times and knock the computer out in those first games. Get to pro though, and it's harder--but then, someone else in the family comes along, plays with a different character and then, you can't find which is your midi--especially with ten or twenty of them on the screen! I'd love it if Nintendo would think about these things, but they won't unless someone puts it in terms they can get--make it easier for the sighted to hear their scores--all those Wiis in nursing homes, who wants to have to put on glasses just to read the dang score! So that's how it has to be done--otherwise it'll never happen. Do you live near Sandusky Ohio, or are you planning a trip to Cedar Point? Receive a massage at very competitive rates-- $40 per hour for a revitalizing therapeutic massage, $65 per house call--any time, anywhere (within reason.) Call 419-577-7973 I'll ease your pain and discomfort, loosen and mobilize your stiff joints, relax your achy muscles, and help you let go of stress, depression, and nervous anxiety... Ken Downey, LMT President of Blind Comfort! The Caring Without the Staring and DreamtechInteractive - Original Message - From: shaun everiss shau...@xtra.co.nz To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 11:48 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games to bad we can't just hack the stuff to be usefull, and really get their attention though its probably not going to get us closer. Truth is Unless we can get on the same tech level as them we will never win. Because we are blind we currently are not able to get there. I have friends interested in playing some games well 1 but no programmers. and nothing really big enough to make a difference. Hmm wander if the same thing would happen if we approached ms, maybe we could get somewhere, xna is free so we could make games, even if ms marketed those with access features we did or something. However I remember there was a major cost for that. At 05:33 p.m. 2/03/2009, you wrote: Hi Dark, Yeah, I have to agree it will begin with indipendant markets first. Smaller developers are more open to new ideas and suggestions then the mainstream big larger corperations. I can remember last year me and another person contacted Sony about possably adding voice output to the menus and various other access improvements for the platform. Unfortunately, we never got passed the low level guys in the customer service department. All we got for our multiple e-mails is thank you for your suggestion, we can not disclose future plans for the Playstation, they don't allow their developers to speak to the public about new feature ideas, and basically get lost. Really quite sad because we can't even have a reasonable discussion with these people about access issues because they have lots of middlemen who act important, talk important, and have 0 power at all. When you ask them to send you up the chain of command they give you the sorry, I am not alloud to do that, speal. So we are really screwed by there internal polacies as muchas anything else. I suppose if someone got on talk radio, a television show, put an article in the paper about the waySony was treating accessibility they might crawl out of the woodwork claiming total ignorance. In a since they'd be telling the truth since they put the middlemen there to deflect you and I from talking to them one on one so nothing we say ever gets braught to their attention. I'm sorry to say I know of no other way to get there attention than by sticking there face in it by making it a public media issue, or taking them to court and performing a class action law suit. Neither way will make t he m any more willing to talk, and will make them angry if nothing else. One reason I support Sryth is I can have a one on one dialog with the developer. Get to know him, and he listens when I have an idea, comment, or suggestion. Even if he never takes my input at least I feel better knowing I was heard. Not so with Sony or the other big companies
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi. Tom. Intreaguing indeed. I certainly take the point about adding captioning for sounds in games being comparatively symple, but I believe the problem here is that this isn't often done, and as games get more inclined to use full animated cutscenes or spoken dialogue people with hereing imparements are having more problems. Perception of disability and what harm it precisely does is actually part of my phd thesis, sinse i'm attempting to formulate a new deffinition and approach for looking at disability which can be then used in solving certain problems. One odd thing though, is that blindness is rarely referenced in the academic literature on disability itself. There's a lot said about deafness, and quite a bit about paraplegia, but comparatively litle on blindness, and I do admit this contributes to my belief about game access issues for those disabilities being more obviously addressed by devs. Also, there is the question of what games are looked at. I'd guess interactive fiction games for example would be near impossible for someone who couldn't quickly use the keyboard, and while they could play many online games, and indeed some like the flash ones which are not Vi accessible, they'd have issues every time they were required to fill in a text field. while I know there are solutions to this sort of problem, how efficient they might be, and how much effort they take to work could be another matter. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi Charles, Yep. That is the corperate world for you. They consistantly think with there brains in there rears, and half the time even if a polacy would make sense they never explain why this or that should be done. Most of the time they stick with a bad polacy rather than have no polacy at all. Anytime you want't to talk to the people who matter you can't because there is so much red tape, polacies, etc that virtually insures the people who need to be informed don't get informed. Even if they are informed it doesn't mean they will be quik to act, or responsive in any way that would be helpful. Charles Rivard wrote: This is the corporate world. To me, the phrase, corporate logic is a total oxymoron. You cannot even get to a middle man because of the corporation's ridiculous policies, and nobody can explain the reasons those policies exist. You cannot ask those who might actually know the reasoning because the policies that are being followed prevent that. The people you can actually talk to can only say, I don't know. I only work here., or, even worse, as was in the case at the major credit card company I worked for for 8 years, I was not allowed, by corporate policy, to ever say that I didn't know. I was supposed to say stuff like, That's a good question. I'll look into it, and have someone call you back on it., knowing full well that I was not going to have someone else call them back. The company lost a lot of business because customers were not called back on a very regular basis, and they did not understand why, even though the phone reps told the managers exactly why. --- If guns cause crime, pencils cause misspelled words. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Take another look at Dragon--if you know how to speak with good diction it is very accurate even before using the training mode. One of these days I'll have to try an IF game with it just for kicks. Do you live near Sandusky Ohio, or are you planning a trip to Cedar Point? Receive a massage at very competitive rates--$40 per hour for a revitalizing therapeutic massage, $65 per house call--any time, anywhere (within reason.) Call 419-577-7973 I'll ease your pain and discomfort, loosen and mobilize your stiff joints, relax your achy muscles, and help you let go of stress, depression, and nervous anxiety... Ken Downey, LMT President of Blind Comfort! The Caring Without the Staring and DreamtechInteractive - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 3:27 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi. Tom. Intreaguing indeed. I certainly take the point about adding captioning for sounds in games being comparatively symple, but I believe the problem here is that this isn't often done, and as games get more inclined to use full animated cutscenes or spoken dialogue people with hereing imparements are having more problems. Perception of disability and what harm it precisely does is actually part of my phd thesis, sinse i'm attempting to formulate a new deffinition and approach for looking at disability which can be then used in solving certain problems. One odd thing though, is that blindness is rarely referenced in the academic literature on disability itself. There's a lot said about deafness, and quite a bit about paraplegia, but comparatively litle on blindness, and I do admit this contributes to my belief about game access issues for those disabilities being more obviously addressed by devs. Also, there is the question of what games are looked at. I'd guess interactive fiction games for example would be near impossible for someone who couldn't quickly use the keyboard, and while they could play many online games, and indeed some like the flash ones which are not Vi accessible, they'd have issues every time they were required to fill in a text field. while I know there are solutions to this sort of problem, how efficient they might be, and how much effort they take to work could be another matter. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hello, Michael Said: Let's start off with advertising and awareness. To be blunt, it has proved extremely hard to get the word out. I tried all the time while I was editor of Audyssey and I have no doubt Ron has as well. Even when I took opportunities to approach people who you'd think would be predisposed to be receptive, I met largely with a blank wall. Tom Says: That has been my experience as well. There are places right here in Ohio such as the Cleveland Sight Center, the Ohio Vision Center, etc and one problem is they generally do training for business oriented applications such as Jaws, Window Eyes, Openbook, Microsoft Office, etc. While they like the idea of accessible games they aren't interested in stepping out of the bounds of business only education and introducing perspective blind computer users to accessible games. Not sure why the polacies are that way, but it is clear they don't want to mix business with entertainment. That leaves us without a very large contributer who is in the best position to spread the word. The problem isn't just with games either. I've offered to help train there instructers in Mac and Linux accessibility in case a perspective client should need that for work or school. Again I met with resistance, and all they seam interested in is the same training courses they've been doing for years. So communicating and introducing new things to these organizations can pose challenging for developers as well as quite frustrating to us who know about other alternatives and technologies that are not getting exposed to the blind community at large. Michael Said: Also, where are most of us going to find the money for widespread advertising? That in itself is a tremendous barrier. Tom Says: That is definitely the major problem. Whenever a major company like Activision, Edos, EA Games, etc comes out with a new game they can sspend thousands of dollars to get some television, radio, and news paper adds. The average one man operation doesn't have that kind of money to do it. Mass market add campaigns such as television, radio, and some major news papers are way out of the price range for most one man operations. As a result we have to think up cheaper alternatives to advertising, but if we don't get backing from blind organizations we are just stuck tredding water. Michael Said: Look at it another way. Even if I produced a stupendously good game which sold a thousand copies, I'd barely make what an average sighted programmer would consider to be a living. The economics of producing games are very tight. Even a majorly successful developer like Dave Greenwood can't make producing games accessible to blind people a fulltime job. Tom Says: I'd like to add that even big name game companies lose money on games too. They have a larger customer base which helps them make enough to carve out a living, but not every game they create is a big name seller, does well, or make the cut. Sometimes a game expected to do well turns out being labeled a flop when it reaches the mainstream public as has happened many times. For example, Edos Interactive flagshipproduct line, Tomb Raider, has been losing money as well as a customer base over the passed 5 years or so. Tomb Raider was a huge hit the first two, three, and possably the first four games, but now it is not the big name seller it once was. In fact, the latest installment, Tomb Raider Underworld, is being called a flop by game reviewers. Everyone agrees the graphics are stunning, the sound effects are extremely good, the music scoring is the best of all the games, but the lack of a good story line as well as technical details has ranked it much lower than the previous Tomb Raider games. Not to mention the U.S. econemy isn't in good shape so game sales aren't doing well right now to begin with. That kind of disappointing sales, low reviews, hurts the game company who tried to release a big selling title, and in Edos case recapture the glory they had 10 years ago when Tomb Raider was the rave. Point being is that even if you create a game, mass market it, there is no assurance it will do well. If Edos can't do it with a flagship product based on there number one game series how can we small timers hope to do better? Michael Said: You need to bring sighted people into the equasion. While they might find the idea of a sound-based game a novelty worth paying for, that interest just doesn't seem to last very long. I've found it pretty nearly impossible to interest sighted people in playing an audio game for very long at all. They simply need things to look at. Tom Says: That also has been my experience. I've tried getting my wife, mother, dad, etc interested playing this or that audio game with me and they have no desire to play it. My wife says, it is boring. That is really too bad as games like Jim Kitchen's Monopoly is a great time waister, but no graphics and my
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
No. I'm over here in Canada. Both Ron and I live in what's known as the Greater Toronto Area. Glad you found my remarks to be of assistance. If I can help in any other way, just ask. Michael Feir Author of Personal Power: How Accessible Computers Can Enhance Personal Life For Blind People 2006-2008 www.blind-planet.com/content/personal-power A Life of Word and Sound 2003-2007 http://www.blind-planet.com/content/life-word-and-sound Creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine 1996-2004 Check out my blog at: www.michaelfeir.blogspot.com - Original Message - From: Mani Djazmi i_am_a_s...@hotmail.com To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 10:32 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi Michael, many thanks for such a comprehensive reply. Do you live in England by any chance? Cheers Mani From: michael.f...@gmail.com To: gamers@audyssey.org Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:39:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hello Mani. I've been an intermittant listener of In Touch for years. A very well-done show indeed. Your arrival on this list is most timely. Tom Ward has just galvanised things with the release of his first public beta level of Mysteries of the Ancients. That's woken the list up for certain. Che Martin is another developer you'll definitely want to chat with. Quite a few of the people currently developing accessible games either had sight or have it. All of our developers have their own interesting stories. As the creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine, I got to know several of them over the years. People get into this for the passion and interest in what they do. We've certainly come a long way together since I published the first issue in 96. Ron Schamerhorn's the current editor and has a somewhat better grasp on the state of things these days. Life has pulled me in some different directions but I still keep an ear on things and try to help where I can. I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have about past developments. You'll find quite a range of oppinion here concerning what constitutes an accessible game. I'm happy to see that you've already gotten a few responses. There are plenty more to be had as the debate is one of long standing in this community. There is a stronger sense among sighted game developers these days regarding the use of sound as more than window dressing. That's going to eventually pay off for us but I don't believe we're anywhere near that point yet. Personally, I'm from the old school which says that a game can only be counted as accessible if blind people can truly play it as it was intended to be played and have access to all information. They shouldn't be handycapped in any way in terms of how far they can get with a game due to being blind. Sight brings an incredible amount of information very rapidly to a person. To be accessible, a great deal of thought must go into the sound of a game as well as the interface. That means I don't view arcade games designed for sighted people as technically accessible. We're just not privy to all the information. Playing something via shere memorisation and luck just doesn't count for me. Other people have fun doing that sort of thing. There was a fellow who is now world famous due to his skill in playing Mortal Combat.As a child, I used to be more in the if I can have fun with it, then it's accessible camp. My father would take me to arcades and we'd try to play the videogames together. He'd desperately try to describe things as fast as possible and I'd be in charge of the controls. It was certainly fun at the time and there was a good degree of cameradery. However, when you take all the bells and whistles away, I was just following my father's instructions as quickly as possible. I eventually tried a game on my own and found out just how much of the experience I was missing as I got obliterated due to having no idea of the game situation. When you reduce a game to purely responding to sound cues and memorization, it stops being at all the same kind of fun that sighted people enjoy. There are a number of tragic cases of games which are almost accessible and could easily have been made so to the benefit of all players whether sighted or blind. The most disappointing one during my editorship of Audyssey was the North American version of Who Wants to Be a Millionaire. The questions were printed onto the screen rather than read out loud as they are in the show and apparently in the UK version of the computer game. A very disappointingly inaccessible Christmas present for our family. Other games like the You Don't Know Jack series are again very close to being accessible. In fact, for the earlier games in that series, nearly all of the game was. There were some visual questions making reference to pictures though. Also, there were the jack attacks which flashed up printed clues and information
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi Darren, I know that different people like different types of games, but so if someone had not done the card games, well then we wouldn't have them. And they may not be for you, but I do not believe that there are any other games like my last two titles, Homer on a Harley and Puppy 1. I hear from and am friends with many rehap counselors. I don't know of any better place to get the word out to about my games as they tell me that they turn their clients onto my games. BFN Jim Check my web site for my free blind accessible pc dos and windows games. j...@kitchensinc.net http://www.kitchensinc.net (440) 286-6920 Chardon Ohio USA --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Darren, You raise a good point: How many people outside of this little community actually know about audyssey and said games? We're 7-128 Software, a small company (more a small orchestra than a one-man band) that makes mainstream casual games that are accessible. We've just published our third annual Top 25 Web Sites for Gamers who are Blind. Audyssey.org is number 2 on that list. A number of Audyssey folks also have sites on that list. For three years we've been sending this list to a range of blind-related institutions (for example Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired), organizations, forums, blogs, and other media. And we offer free demos. And our ALERT project offers free help to educators using accessible games. And our detective games, puzzle games, and word games are (for the most part) not rehashes And guess what: we have the same problem that Thomas, Che, Liam, Jim, and the others do in making ourselves known. I'll bet you never heard of us. Publicity (which means advertising with minimal cost) is tough, really really tough. This year we're being much more aggressive with our publicity. Hopefully, this will make more people aware of Audyssey.org as well as ourselves. Oh. BTW. Not to critisize at all; but some of those rehashes are very popular in the blind gaming community. I suspect because guys like the above really know how to add their own gameness to their products. John Bannick CTO 7-128 Software www.7128.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hmmm an idea has been floating round my brain for days now. It seems that the mainstream games devs don't want to do accessible stuff for the blind because no cash in that market. I wander if its possible, that we can do it the other way. Ie get the games mod them or make them accessible, or whatever we need to do to interface if its at all possible. Then tell the companies about it. Then they can pay us for making the mod and not do it themselves or something. This came around mainly because in nz there is a law which although not probably inforcable states that anyone that pirates stuff gets disconnected, movies, mp3s, etc. In nz we don't have discribed movies, I have wandered what would happen if someone here broadcast described movies, downloaded from the net on tv. And then the origional previders of those movies could charge a small ammount for the use of those movies rather than they having to do it all. Its probable impossible and I am just talking through a hole in my backside but feel free to comment. At 04:21 a.m. 2/03/2009, you wrote: Darren, You raise a good point: How many people outside of this little community actually know about audyssey and said games? We're 7-128 Software, a small company (more a small orchestra than a one-man band) that makes mainstream casual games that are accessible. We've just published our third annual Top 25 Web Sites for Gamers who are Blind. Audyssey.org is number 2 on that list. A number of Audyssey folks also have sites on that list. For three years we've been sending this list to a range of blind-related institutions (for example Texas School for the Blind and Visually Impaired), organizations, forums, blogs, and other media. And we offer free demos. And our ALERT project offers free help to educators using accessible games. And our detective games, puzzle games, and word games are (for the most part) not rehashes And guess what: we have the same problem that Thomas, Che, Liam, Jim, and the others do in making ourselves known. I'll bet you never heard of us. Publicity (which means advertising with minimal cost) is tough, really really tough. This year we're being much more aggressive with our publicity. Hopefully, this will make more people aware of Audyssey.org as well as ourselves. Oh. BTW. Not to critisize at all; but some of those rehashes are very popular in the blind gaming community. I suspect because guys like the above really know how to add their own gameness to their products. John Bannick CTO 7-128 Software www.7128.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
[Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Folks, Having now read the plethora of posts, its again obvious why Audyssey is a good place for developers to hang out. Lotsa good information and ideas. Here are some responses: 1. IGDA Thomas Weston, developer of Terraformers and co-founder of the Game Accessibility SIG, is taking a DVD full of accessible games and related stuff to GDC 2009. To my knowledge, he, Eleanor, and I are the only developers of blind accessible games who are members of GA SIG. Why couldnt Tom Ward, Jim, Liam, Che, and other developers join the IGDA, contribute their ideas to the GA SIG, and get their stuff on next years DVD? 2. Sighted Gamers find Purely Audio Games Boring If Michael Feirs own sighted fiancee cant get into audio only games, then there is a big clue there. I suspect that for a sighted gamer, not having eye candy is like having food without taste. 3. Getting Mainstream Companies to Make their Games Accessible Dark and I have had at least a positive response from one small European developer. I wrote a technical analysis of their user interface and Dark and I made suggestions as to how it could be made more accessible. They at least did not blow him off. Dark would have to respond as to whether they made the changes or to what extent he thinks it affected their later games. The point being that some smaller developers might be responsive to specific suggestions. Larger developers might be responsive via their own Modding features. In the Serious Games industry, Dooms been modded to teach firefighters how to work in burning buildings. Could someone ask a big company if they could make their modding capability such that it works with sound and can add the sound elements that would make a game accessible. BTW. That Doom exercise was done by Darks own university, Durham. 4. Market Size and Money The one segment of the blind community thats most likely to spend money on accessible games is parents of blind children. Note that children these days can be in their 20s or even 30s. Parents spend money on their kids. Some parents of blind kids are sighted and have decent incomes. Try the Yahoo Groups and similar venues. Weve seen posts where parents have asked where they can get accessible games for their kids. Obviously, this applies to free games too (Jim gets mentioned there.) 5. Publicity Why cant Audyssey developers write articles for AbleGamers, GameForward, GameCritics, The Accessible Friends Network, the IGDA GA SIG blog, and other media that are eager for accessibility material? 6. Final Words Having just surveyed the deaf and the motion-impaired gaming communities, it is clear that the blind-accessible gaming community is far more developed. There are more media that discuss blind issues. There are more organizations and institutions that publicize blind accessible games. All that being said, thanks for a lot of good information and insight. Now I gotta get back to coding. John Bannick www.7128.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi John To my knowledge, he, Eleanor, and I are the only developers of blind accessible games who are members of GA SIG. Sander and I have been GA-SIG / IGDA members since almost the beginning of the SIG and we've been into audio game development since 2000. I suspect that for a sighted gamer, not having eye candy is like having food without taste. Several years ago a Dutch MA student did a survey of how audio games are received by a sighted audience. One of the outcomes was that the platform on which the audio game is played is a key factor in the perception of the gamer. Many gamers found that, on a PC, they were missing visual feedback - it simply felt like half a game. But they also indicated that if they were to play audio games on devices like, say, mobile phones, they wouldn't feel they were missing feedback. Of course this was in a time when the iPhone was not yet released. Interesting detail is that there are already commercial interactive audio adventures for iPhone available (http://www.rtaudioadventures.com/Soultrapper.html), although not yet accessible due to a visual game input interface. More later, Richard - Original Message - From: John Bannick jbann...@7128.com To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 7:50 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Folks, Having now read the plethora of posts, it's again obvious why Audyssey is a good place for developers to hang out. Lotsa good information and ideas. Here are some responses: 1. IGDA Thomas Weston, developer of Terraformers and co-founder of the Game Accessibility SIG, is taking a DVD full of accessible games and related stuff to GDC 2009. To my knowledge, he, Eleanor, and I are the only developers of blind accessible games who are members of GA SIG. Why couldn't Tom Ward, Jim, Liam, Che, and other developers join the IGDA, contribute their ideas to the GA SIG, and get their stuff on next year's DVD? 2. Sighted Gamers find Purely Audio Games Boring If Michael Feir's own sighted fiancee can't get into audio only games, then there is a big clue there. I suspect that for a sighted gamer, not having eye candy is like having food without taste. 3. Getting Mainstream Companies to Make their Games Accessible Dark and I have had at least a positive response from one small European developer. I wrote a technical analysis of their user interface and Dark and I made suggestions as to how it could be made more accessible. They at least did not blow him off. Dark would have to respond as to whether they made the changes or to what extent he thinks it affected their later games. The point being that some smaller developers might be responsive to specific suggestions. Larger developers might be responsive via their own Modding features. In the Serious Games industry, Doom's been modded to teach firefighters how to work in burning buildings. Could someone ask a big company if they could make their modding capability such that it works with sound and can add the sound elements that would make a game accessible. BTW. That Doom exercise was done by Dark's own university, Durham. 4. Market Size and Money The one segment of the blind community that's most likely to spend money on accessible games is parents of blind children. Note that children these days can be in their 20's or even 30's. Parents spend money on their kids. Some parents of blind kids are sighted and have decent incomes. Try the Yahoo Groups and similar venues. We've seen posts where parents have asked where they can get accessible games for their kids. Obviously, this applies to free games too (Jim gets mentioned there.) 5. Publicity Why can't Audyssey developers write articles for AbleGamers, GameForward, GameCritics, The Accessible Friends Network, the IGDA GA SIG blog, and other media that are eager for accessibility material? 6. Final Words Having just surveyed the deaf and the motion-impaired gaming communities, it is clear that the blind-accessible gaming community is far more developed. There are more media that discuss blind issues. There are more organizations and institutions that publicize blind accessible games. All that being said, thanks for a lot of good information and insight. Now I gotta get back to coding. John Bannick www.7128.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
As I've said before, I see independent game developers as very much the future of game access. they are small enough both to have a dialogue with, and that the sales of games to Vi gamers can actually make a difference to them. While it would be fantastic if the likes of midway, Capcom or nintendo were to include access features, I'm not certain with their high turn over of produced games, and their need to sell literally millions of copies that it would be from a purely capitalistic point of view worth their while. Of course this isn't to say that I think the efforts of Igda etc shouldn't be directed at those companies just that I'd be more surprised if something came of it. From the independent games point of view, while I appreciate the findings of 7-128 on the number of website actually devoted to gaming for the motion or hearing impared, it does seem that the issues involved are much more well known, sinse independent games like retroremakes and the indi games showcase have accessibility guidelines and sections which focus exclusively upon those areas but have litle to no mention of sound access at all. While I don't doubt the findings of the servay, it appears from the experience i've had that Vi access is less known about in general by the vast majority of independent games developers than other forms of access, - which probably explains the larger amount of specialized resources available. Obviously as with most of these sorts of findings though it's dependent upon where you look, and it might just be I've stumbled upon the few handy resources available in this area. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: John Bannick jbann...@7128.com To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 6:50 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Folks, Having now read the plethora of posts, it's again obvious why Audyssey is a good place for developers to hang out. Lotsa good information and ideas. Here are some responses: 1. IGDA Thomas Weston, developer of Terraformers and co-founder of the Game Accessibility SIG, is taking a DVD full of accessible games and related stuff to GDC 2009. To my knowledge, he, Eleanor, and I are the only developers of blind accessible games who are members of GA SIG. Why couldn't Tom Ward, Jim, Liam, Che, and other developers join the IGDA, contribute their ideas to the GA SIG, and get their stuff on next year's DVD? 2. Sighted Gamers find Purely Audio Games Boring If Michael Feir's own sighted fiancee can't get into audio only games, then there is a big clue there. I suspect that for a sighted gamer, not having eye candy is like having food without taste. 3. Getting Mainstream Companies to Make their Games Accessible Dark and I have had at least a positive response from one small European developer. I wrote a technical analysis of their user interface and Dark and I made suggestions as to how it could be made more accessible. They at least did not blow him off. Dark would have to respond as to whether they made the changes or to what extent he thinks it affected their later games. The point being that some smaller developers might be responsive to specific suggestions. Larger developers might be responsive via their own Modding features. In the Serious Games industry, Doom's been modded to teach firefighters how to work in burning buildings. Could someone ask a big company if they could make their modding capability such that it works with sound and can add the sound elements that would make a game accessible. BTW. That Doom exercise was done by Dark's own university, Durham. 4. Market Size and Money The one segment of the blind community that's most likely to spend money on accessible games is parents of blind children. Note that children these days can be in their 20's or even 30's. Parents spend money on their kids. Some parents of blind kids are sighted and have decent incomes. Try the Yahoo Groups and similar venues. We've seen posts where parents have asked where they can get accessible games for their kids. Obviously, this applies to free games too (Jim gets mentioned there.) 5. Publicity Why can't Audyssey developers write articles for AbleGamers, GameForward, GameCritics, The Accessible Friends Network, the IGDA GA SIG blog, and other media that are eager for accessibility material? 6. Final Words Having just surveyed the deaf and the motion-impaired gaming communities, it is clear that the blind-accessible gaming community is far more developed. There are more media that discuss blind issues. There are more organizations and institutions that publicize blind accessible games. All that being said, thanks for a lot of good information and insight. Now I gotta get back to coding. John Bannick www.7128.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your
[Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Richard, Oops! You are so right. You and Sander have been doing audio games a lot longer than I have. It's probably because I associate you both with academia rather than industry. And, being as myopic as anyone, I think only of industry when I think developer. My bad. Your comment on the medium being the message is enlightening. At our recent Boston Visually Impaired and Blind Users Group meeting, some device was demonstrated that, among other things, spoke stories. It had no screen. I didn't feel any lack of visuals in that context. So maybe if an audio game were played on such a device, then a sighted person could play along with a blind person and not feel such a lack. Dark, Count me among those who know very little about VI specific issues. Velu and you have provided some good information, but I just haven't had the time yet to even begin there. You said you've stumbled upon the few handy resources available in this area Speak, pal. If you know of any resources I haven't mentioned somewhere in our discourses, please let me know. BTW. One disadvantage the motion-impaired community has is that it seems very fragmented among the various specific disabilities: MS, MD, CP, spinal injuries, etc. As opposed to the blind community, which seems much more concentrated. With respect to the influence of the IGDA or individuals on larger companies. Mark Barlet, who's a member and runs AbleGamers, seems to have had some positive affect on one or more of the larger developers in their deafness and motion-impaired access. I do believe that persistence can pay off. John --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi Dark, Yeah, I have to agree it will begin with indipendant markets first. Smaller developers are more open to new ideas and suggestions then the mainstream big larger corperations. I can remember last year me and another person contacted Sony about possably adding voice output to the menus and various other access improvements for the platform. Unfortunately, we never got passed the low level guys in the customer service department. All we got for our multiple e-mails is thank you for your suggestion, we can not disclose future plans for the Playstation, they don't allow their developers to speak to the public about new feature ideas, and basically get lost. Really quite sad because we can't even have a reasonable discussion with these people about access issues because they have lots of middlemen who act important, talk important, and have 0 power at all. When you ask them to send you up the chain of command they give you the sorry, I am not alloud to do that, speal. So we are really screwed by there internal polacies as muchas anything else. I suppose if someone got on talk radio, a television show, put an article in the paper about the waySony was treating accessibility they might crawl out of the woodwork claiming total ignorance. In a since they'd be telling the truth since they put the middlemen there to deflect you and I from talking to them one on one so nothing we say ever gets braught to their attention. I'm sorry to say I know of no other way to get there attention than by sticking there face in it by making it a public media issue, or taking them to court and performing a class action law suit. Neither way will make them any more willing to talk, and will make them angry if nothing else. One reason I support Sryth is I can have a one on one dialog with the developer. Get to know him, and he listens when I have an idea, comment, or suggestion. Even if he never takes my input at least I feel better knowing I was heard. Not so with Sony or the other big companies. they blow you off without a backwards glance. As if you were a pesky fly or something. dark wrote: As I've said before, I see independent game developers as very much the future of game access. they are small enough both to have a dialogue with, and that the sales of games to Vi gamers can actually make a difference to them. While it would be fantastic if the likes of midway, Capcom or nintendo were to include access features, I'm not certain with their high turn over of produced games, and their need to sell literally millions of copies that it would be from a purely capitalistic point of view worth their while. Of course this isn't to say that I think the efforts of Igda etc shouldn't be directed at those companies just that I'd be more surprised if something came of it. From the independent games point of view, while I appreciate the findings of 7-128 on the number of website actually devoted to gaming for the motion or hearing impared, it does seem that the issues involved are much more well known, sinse independent games like retroremakes and the indi games showcase have accessibility guidelines and sections which focus exclusively upon those areas but have litle to no mention of sound access at all. While I don't doubt the findings of the servay, it appears from the experience i've had that Vi access is less known about in general by the vast majority of independent games developers than other forms of access, - which probably explains the larger amount of specialized resources available. Obviously as with most of these sorts of findings though it's dependent upon where you look, and it might just be I've stumbled upon the few handy resources available in this area. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
This is the corporate world. To me, the phrase, corporate logic is a total oxymoron. You cannot even get to a middle man because of the corporation's ridiculous policies, and nobody can explain the reasons those policies exist. You cannot ask those who might actually know the reasoning because the policies that are being followed prevent that. The people you can actually talk to can only say, I don't know. I only work here., or, even worse, as was in the case at the major credit card company I worked for for 8 years, I was not allowed, by corporate policy, to ever say that I didn't know. I was supposed to say stuff like, That's a good question. I'll look into it, and have someone call you back on it., knowing full well that I was not going to have someone else call them back. The company lost a lot of business because customers were not called back on a very regular basis, and they did not understand why, even though the phone reps told the managers exactly why. --- If guns cause crime, pencils cause misspelled words. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 8:33 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi Dark, Yeah, I have to agree it will begin with indipendant markets first. Smaller developers are more open to new ideas and suggestions then the mainstream big larger corperations. I can remember last year me and another person contacted Sony about possably adding voice output to the menus and various other access improvements for the platform. Unfortunately, we never got passed the low level guys in the customer service department. All we got for our multiple e-mails is thank you for your suggestion, we can not disclose future plans for the Playstation, they don't allow their developers to speak to the public about new feature ideas, and basically get lost. Really quite sad because we can't even have a reasonable discussion with these people about access issues because they have lots of middlemen who act important, talk important, and have 0 power at all. When you ask them to send you up the chain of command they give you the sorry, I am not alloud to do that, speal. So we are really screwed by there internal polacies as muchas anything else. I suppose if someone got on talk radio, a television show, put an article in the paper about the waySony was treating accessibility they might crawl out of the woodwork claiming total ignorance. In a since they'd be telling the truth since they put the middlemen there to deflect you and I from talking to them one on one so nothing we say ever gets braught to their attention. I'm sorry to say I know of no other way to get there attention than by sticking there face in it by making it a public media issue, or taking them to court and performing a class action law suit. Neither way will make them any more willing to talk, and will make them angry if nothing else. One reason I support Sryth is I can have a one on one dialog with the developer. Get to know him, and he listens when I have an idea, comment, or suggestion. Even if he never takes my input at least I feel better knowing I was heard. Not so with Sony or the other big companies. they blow you off without a backwards glance. As if you were a pesky fly or something. dark wrote: As I've said before, I see independent game developers as very much the future of game access. they are small enough both to have a dialogue with, and that the sales of games to Vi gamers can actually make a difference to them. While it would be fantastic if the likes of midway, Capcom or nintendo were to include access features, I'm not certain with their high turn over of produced games, and their need to sell literally millions of copies that it would be from a purely capitalistic point of view worth their while. Of course this isn't to say that I think the efforts of Igda etc shouldn't be directed at those companies just that I'd be more surprised if something came of it. From the independent games point of view, while I appreciate the findings of 7-128 on the number of website actually devoted to gaming for the motion or hearing impared, it does seem that the issues involved are much more well known, sinse independent games like retroremakes and the indi games showcase have accessibility guidelines and sections which focus exclusively upon those areas but have litle to no mention of sound access at all. While I don't doubt the findings of the servay, it appears from the experience i've had that Vi access is less known about in general by the vast majority of independent games developers than other forms of access, - which probably explains the larger amount of specialized resources available. Obviously as with most of these sorts of findings though it's dependent upon where you look, and it might just be I've stumbled
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
to bad we can't just hack the stuff to be usefull, and really get their attention though its probably not going to get us closer. Truth is Unless we can get on the same tech level as them we will never win. Because we are blind we currently are not able to get there. I have friends interested in playing some games well 1 but no programmers. and nothing really big enough to make a difference. Hmm wander if the same thing would happen if we approached ms, maybe we could get somewhere, xna is free so we could make games, even if ms marketed those with access features we did or something. However I remember there was a major cost for that. At 05:33 p.m. 2/03/2009, you wrote: Hi Dark, Yeah, I have to agree it will begin with indipendant markets first. Smaller developers are more open to new ideas and suggestions then the mainstream big larger corperations. I can remember last year me and another person contacted Sony about possably adding voice output to the menus and various other access improvements for the platform. Unfortunately, we never got passed the low level guys in the customer service department. All we got for our multiple e-mails is thank you for your suggestion, we can not disclose future plans for the Playstation, they don't allow their developers to speak to the public about new feature ideas, and basically get lost. Really quite sad because we can't even have a reasonable discussion with these people about access issues because they have lots of middlemen who act important, talk important, and have 0 power at all. When you ask them to send you up the chain of command they give you the sorry, I am not alloud to do that, speal. So we are really screwed by there internal polacies as muchas anything else. I suppose if someone got on talk radio, a television show, put an article in the paper about the waySony was treating accessibility they might crawl out of the woodwork claiming total ignorance. In a since they'd be telling the truth since they put the middlemen there to deflect you and I from talking to them one on one so nothing we say ever gets braught to their attention. I'm sorry to say I know of no other way to get there attention than by sticking there face in it by making it a public media issue, or taking them to court and performing a class action law suit. Neither way will make the m any more willing to talk, and will make them angry if nothing else. One reason I support Sryth is I can have a one on one dialog with the developer. Get to know him, and he listens when I have an idea, comment, or suggestion. Even if he never takes my input at least I feel better knowing I was heard. Not so with Sony or the other big companies. they blow you off without a backwards glance. As if you were a pesky fly or something. dark wrote: As I've said before, I see independent game developers as very much the future of game access. they are small enough both to have a dialogue with, and that the sales of games to Vi gamers can actually make a difference to them. While it would be fantastic if the likes of midway, Capcom or nintendo were to include access features, I'm not certain with their high turn over of produced games, and their need to sell literally millions of copies that it would be from a purely capitalistic point of view worth their while. Of course this isn't to say that I think the efforts of Igda etc shouldn't be directed at those companies just that I'd be more surprised if something came of it. From the independent games point of view, while I appreciate the findings of 7-128 on the number of website actually devoted to gaming for the motion or hearing impared, it does seem that the issues involved are much more well known, sinse independent games like retroremakes and the indi games showcase have accessibility guidelines and sections which focus exclusively upon those areas but have litle to no mention of sound access at all. While I don't doubt the findings of the servay, it appears from the experience i've had that Vi access is less known about in general by the vast majority of independent games developers than other forms of access, - which probably explains the larger amount of specialized resources available. Obviously as with most of these sorts of findings though it's dependent upon where you look, and it might just be I've stumbled upon the few handy resources available in this area. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi Tom. Agreed on all counts, certainly my attempt contacting Capcom over low vision access issues and their huge amounts of 3D games (this was in the days before I discovered audio games existed), failed horribly. Nintendo were much more sympathetic when i spoke to them on the phone reguarding Wii menue access, however their organization was such that even though the chap I spoke to at Nintendo Uk would've liked to put things forward, there was no way even for him to get in touch with the main developement centers in the Us or Japan to progress the issue any further. I'd agree about Sryth, having had chats with the Gm over the last four years. I admit that these days I'm slightly less happy on some of the directions Sryth is taking, automating many processes such as travel and finding adventures which in the passed were freely explorable, and focusing heavily on stat based competitions betwene players, in fact the day Sryth goes full pvp is the day that Ekitrina hangs up her sword, but it is good that the game is both accessible and that the Gm is open to discussion. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 4:33 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi Dark, Yeah, I have to agree it will begin with indipendant markets first. Smaller developers are more open to new ideas and suggestions then the mainstream big larger corperations. I can remember last year me and another person contacted Sony about possably adding voice output to the menus and various other access improvements for the platform. Unfortunately, we never got passed the low level guys in the customer service department. All we got for our multiple e-mails is thank you for your suggestion, we can not disclose future plans for the Playstation, they don't allow their developers to speak to the public about new feature ideas, and basically get lost. Really quite sad because we can't even have a reasonable discussion with these people about access issues because they have lots of middlemen who act important, talk important, and have 0 power at all. When you ask them to send you up the chain of command they give you the sorry, I am not alloud to do that, speal. So we are really screwed by there internal polacies as muchas anything else. I suppose if someone got on talk radio, a television show, put an article in the paper about the waySony was treating accessibility they might crawl out of the woodwork claiming total ignorance. In a since they'd be telling the truth since they put the middlemen there to deflect you and I from talking to them one on one so nothing we say ever gets braught to their attention. I'm sorry to say I know of no other way to get there attention than by sticking there face in it by making it a public media issue, or taking them to court and performing a class action law suit. Neither way will make them any more willing to talk, and will make them angry if nothing else. One reason I support Sryth is I can have a one on one dialog with the developer. Get to know him, and he listens when I have an idea, comment, or suggestion. Even if he never takes my input at least I feel better knowing I was heard. Not so with Sony or the other big companies. they blow you off without a backwards glance. As if you were a pesky fly or something. dark wrote: As I've said before, I see independent game developers as very much the future of game access. they are small enough both to have a dialogue with, and that the sales of games to Vi gamers can actually make a difference to them. While it would be fantastic if the likes of midway, Capcom or nintendo were to include access features, I'm not certain with their high turn over of produced games, and their need to sell literally millions of copies that it would be from a purely capitalistic point of view worth their while. Of course this isn't to say that I think the efforts of Igda etc shouldn't be directed at those companies just that I'd be more surprised if something came of it. From the independent games point of view, while I appreciate the findings of 7-128 on the number of website actually devoted to gaming for the motion or hearing impared, it does seem that the issues involved are much more well known, sinse independent games like retroremakes and the indi games showcase have accessibility guidelines and sections which focus exclusively upon those areas but have litle to no mention of sound access at all. While I don't doubt the findings of the servay, it appears from the experience i've had that Vi access is less known about in general by the vast majority of independent games developers than other forms of access, - which probably explains the larger amount of specialized resources available. Obviously as with most of these sorts
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi John, It is my belief that good accessibility always begins at the academic level. One thing we blind computer users face is young developers are just not taught how to create accessible software from day one. In the passed when i was enrolled at Wright State University they ran you through the basics, and out the door you go. There was no discussion how this or that application could be made accessible or a list of guidelines that should be met in order to insure a high level of accessibility. As a result most Windows applications are released and then adapted for our needs down the road through scripting, communication with the developers, etc. In other words fixing the problem after the fact. I am glad to say however that this is beginning to change. As you well know after Sun introduced the Java Swing toolkit accessibility has become a much higher priority for Java developers, and there is lots more documentation on access considerations than there were 10 years ago at this time. Apple has totally redesigned there Cocoa API for Mac OS so that accessibility is not an after thought but a core component of there user interface. That will pay off in the end because the Cocoa books I have read do at least cover accessibility considerations at some point. It also helps that voice over comes with Mac OS allowing developers to test the user interface before shipping said product. Ubuntu Linux also has adopted this design approach to accessibility and it is slowly but surely paying off. More and more Linux developers are becoming aware of access issues and are beginning to meet some level of accessibility out of the box now. It isn't perfect, but making access a core component brings it immediately to a developers attention. This idea of access first has been something Windows has lacked, and for that reason we have suffered for far too long. With games we find ourselves in the same boat. You can pick up any game programming book, and i can tell you at least 2/3 of the book is on graphics design and how to get the coolest eye candy. Very little is actually discussed about input and sound. You May get one possably two chapters on each. The rest is devoted to graphics, graphics, and more graphics. Perhaps if we want to really be successful we need to go to the source, the authors, teachers, and the people who influence a programmers early education. Contact the author who is writing the next Killer Games in C# and give him pointers about including Sapi 5 in his/her game examples to speak scores, maybe add more 3D audio, something to get him/her thinking about access issues. Then, a new game programmer will read and get ideas how he/she can help. HTH --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Things are getting better, gradually. This is encouraging. Thanks. --- If guns cause crime, pencils cause misspelled words. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: jbann...@7128.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 9:00 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi John, It is my belief that good accessibility always begins at the academic level. One thing we blind computer users face is young developers are just not taught how to create accessible software from day one. In the passed when i was enrolled at Wright State University they ran you through the basics, and out the door you go. There was no discussion how this or that application could be made accessible or a list of guidelines that should be met in order to insure a high level of accessibility. As a result most Windows applications are released and then adapted for our needs down the road through scripting, communication with the developers, etc. In other words fixing the problem after the fact. I am glad to say however that this is beginning to change. As you well know after Sun introduced the Java Swing toolkit accessibility has become a much higher priority for Java developers, and there is lots more documentation on access considerations than there were 10 years ago at this time. Apple has totally redesigned there Cocoa API for Mac OS so that accessibility is not an after thought but a core component of there user interface. That will pay off in the end because the Cocoa books I have read do at least cover accessibility considerations at some point. It also helps that voice over comes with Mac OS allowing developers to test the user interface before shipping said product. Ubuntu Linux also has adopted this design approach to accessibility and it is slowly but surely paying off. More and more Linux developers are becoming aware of access issues and are beginning to meet some level of accessibility out of the box now. It isn't perfect, but making access a core component brings it immediately to a developers attention. This idea of access first has been something Windows has lacked, and for that reason we have suffered for far too long. With games we find ourselves in the same boat. You can pick up any game programming book, and i can tell you at least 2/3 of the book is on graphics design and how to get the coolest eye candy. Very little is actually discussed about input and sound. You May get one possably two chapters on each. The rest is devoted to graphics, graphics, and more graphics. Perhaps if we want to really be successful we need to go to the source, the authors, teachers, and the people who influence a programmers early education. Contact the author who is writing the next Killer Games in C# and give him pointers about including Sapi 5 in his/her game examples to speak scores, maybe add more 3D audio, something to get him/her thinking about access issues. Then, a new game programmer will read and get ideas how he/she can help. HTH --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
That's sadly true. Another issue (much more in my end of research), does also seem to be that sinse the majority of Vi people are over the age of 65, the majority do not have that much interest in playing games. I personally tend to think this is the reason why there is an intigrated forum and discussion of access for motion impared or hereing impared, allbeit in a probably over generalized mana in places like retroremakes, and litle to no discussion of Vi access. There are proportionally more younger people with motor or hereing imparements than Vi. I one discussion on retroremakes about the Wii, where I stated that the mouse pointer Wii mote accessed menues both from a low vision and blind perspective were incredibly unhelpful when compared to the standard curser driven menues of the 16 and 32 bit consoles, where I was verbally told off rather sternly sinse people with Motor imparements were apparently finding the Wii mote accessed menues much more helpful, and that (in the minds of some members of that community), trumped low vision access. Of course this isn't to say that motor access isn't a highly important concern, and one which should distinctly be addressed, but I do wonder if this is why Vi access appears slightly more specialized when compared to other access issues, and whether This is also why more of a community has developed around Vi access issues than other forms of game access as your own survey showed. Beware the Grue! Dark. - --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi Shaun, The problem with that approach is the software developer still has to get the proper licensing from the company as well as pay out royalties for his or her version of the game. The only time i've seen anything remotely like this was Loki Game Studios. What Loki did is they would sublicense games like Quake, Half Life, Civilization, etc and then port them to Linux. Loki took in a certain percentage of the sales and the rest would go back into the company who owns the copyrights for that title. It was a great idea, but apparently they didn't make enough off the games to stay in business. Loki lasted for a couple of years and went belly up after porting 10 or 12 very popular games to linux. Point being if a game company couldn't do it for Linux users, which is a much larger base than the blind community, then an accessible game developer is starting off with some fairly poor odds of success. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
hmmm. I suppose thats not good odds. oh well hopefully we will catch up soon. At 06:30 p.m. 2/03/2009, you wrote: Hi Shaun, The problem with that approach is the software developer still has to get the proper licensing from the company as well as pay out royalties for his or her version of the game. The only time i've seen anything remotely like this was Loki Game Studios. What Loki did is they would sublicense games like Quake, Half Life, Civilization, etc and then port them to Linux. Loki took in a certain percentage of the sales and the rest would go back into the company who owns the copyrights for that title. It was a great idea, but apparently they didn't make enough off the games to stay in business. Loki lasted for a couple of years and went belly up after porting 10 or 12 very popular games to linux. Point being if a game company couldn't do it for Linux users, which is a much larger base than the blind community, then an accessible game developer is starting off with some fairly poor odds of success. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi Dark, Interesting. Well, for my own research I think it is also sometimes easier to adapt a game for certain access issues than others. Were I hearing impaired rather than blind I still could play all of my Atari 2600 games without any problems. I could not hear what is going on, butI could see the game and be able to play them without many access issues. In games like Elite Force where there is lots of dialog involved all the developer needs to do is have a dialog baloon pop up that displays the words the characters are saying. This is infinitely easier to put into a game than all of the things a blind gamer requires. Then, there is the perception of blindness in general. While in college I mixed with people with all kinds of disabilities. The hearing impared students thought being blind was infinitely worse than not being able to hear. The students in wheel chairs thought motor disabilities was better than being blind. When you come down to it the universal opinion was because I was blind I was more disabled than them. On the other hand I saw it as being better as i could hear things, touch things, smell things, and don't require ramps, special toilets, wide doorways, etc to get on with my life. However, if public opinion sees blindness being the worst then they will address other issues like motor and hearing disabilities first. dark wrote: That's sadly true. Another issue (much more in my end of research), does also seem to be that sinse the majority of Vi people are over the age of 65, the majority do not have that much interest in playing games. I personally tend to think this is the reason why there is an intigrated forum and discussion of access for motion impared or hereing impared, allbeit in a probably over generalized mana in places like retroremakes, and litle to no discussion of Vi access. There are proportionally more younger people with motor or hereing imparements than Vi. I one discussion on retroremakes about the Wii, where I stated that the mouse pointer Wii mote accessed menues both from a low vision and blind perspective were incredibly unhelpful when compared to the standard curser driven menues of the 16 and 32 bit consoles, where I was verbally told off rather sternly sinse people with Motor imparements were apparently finding the Wii mote accessed menues much more helpful, and that (in the minds of some members of that community), trumped low vision access. Of course this isn't to say that motor access isn't a highly important concern, and one which should distinctly be addressed, but I do wonder if this is why Vi access appears slightly more specialized when compared to other access issues, and whether This is also why more of a community has developed around Vi access issues than other forms of game access as your own survey showed. Beware the Grue! Dark. - --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
If you want these games to be more accessible, you have to put up a front. The talking calculators we had in the 80s were horrible because they were for the blind until Sharp somehow got the idea that the sighted folks would really like to be able to punch buttons and hear the numbers so they didn't have to look up from their books or whatever when they were calculating--so if the games talked more, that would be less reading for a sighted community for whom reading would take away somewhat from the enwrapping qualities of the game. I especially wish that the WII had text to speech, because the Miis always move around, and in Wii sports, the only way to play the big boys is to become one yourself--get a lot of points. That's why in boxing, you can punch three or four times and knock the computer out in those first games. Get to pro though, and it's harder--but then, someone else in the family comes along, plays with a different character and then, you can't find which is your midi--especially with ten or twenty of them on the screen! I'd love it if Nintendo would think about these things, but they won't unless someone puts it in terms they can get--make it easier for the sighted to hear their scores--all those Wiis in nursing homes, who wants to have to put on glasses just to read the dang score! So that's how it has to be done--otherwise it'll never happen. Do you live near Sandusky Ohio, or are you planning a trip to Cedar Point? Receive a massage at very competitive rates-- $40 per hour for a revitalizing therapeutic massage, $65 per house call--any time, anywhere (within reason.) Call 419-577-7973 I'll ease your pain and discomfort, loosen and mobilize your stiff joints, relax your achy muscles, and help you let go of stress, depression, and nervous anxiety... Ken Downey, LMT President of Blind Comfort! The Caring Without the Staring and DreamtechInteractive - Original Message - From: shaun everiss shau...@xtra.co.nz To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 11:48 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games to bad we can't just hack the stuff to be usefull, and really get their attention though its probably not going to get us closer. Truth is Unless we can get on the same tech level as them we will never win. Because we are blind we currently are not able to get there. I have friends interested in playing some games well 1 but no programmers. and nothing really big enough to make a difference. Hmm wander if the same thing would happen if we approached ms, maybe we could get somewhere, xna is free so we could make games, even if ms marketed those with access features we did or something. However I remember there was a major cost for that. At 05:33 p.m. 2/03/2009, you wrote: Hi Dark, Yeah, I have to agree it will begin with indipendant markets first. Smaller developers are more open to new ideas and suggestions then the mainstream big larger corperations. I can remember last year me and another person contacted Sony about possably adding voice output to the menus and various other access improvements for the platform. Unfortunately, we never got passed the low level guys in the customer service department. All we got for our multiple e-mails is thank you for your suggestion, we can not disclose future plans for the Playstation, they don't allow their developers to speak to the public about new feature ideas, and basically get lost. Really quite sad because we can't even have a reasonable discussion with these people about access issues because they have lots of middlemen who act important, talk important, and have 0 power at all. When you ask them to send you up the chain of command they give you the sorry, I am not alloud to do that, speal. So we are really screwed by there internal polacies as muchas anything else. I suppose if someone got on talk radio, a television show, put an article in the paper about the waySony was treating accessibility they might crawl out of the woodwork claiming total ignorance. In a since they'd be telling the truth since they put the middlemen there to deflect you and I from talking to them one on one so nothing we say ever gets braught to their attention. I'm sorry to say I know of no other way to get there attention than by sticking there face in it by making it a public media issue, or taking them to court and performing a class action law suit. Neither way will make the m any more willing to talk, and will make them angry if nothing else. One reason I support Sryth is I can have a one on one dialog with the developer. Get to know him, and he listens when I have an idea, comment, or suggestion. Even if he never takes my input at least I feel better knowing I was heard. Not so with Sony or the other big companies. they blow you off without a backwards glance. As if you were a pesky fly or something. dark wrote: As I've said before, I see
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi, The point is, a lot of these so-called accessible games are nothing more than rince and repete type games. Which actually does annoy me because so much more could be done and yet isn't. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Constantine Sent: 28 February 2009 01:50 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi I'm a classic gamer myself. I think I'm one in 100 because there doesn't seem to be much interest here. Anyway, onto my report - I'll make this as detailed as I can, sorta. Well, to start off with, I own a sega genesis, soon to own a sega cd, 3do and dreamcast - I also own a n64, and gamecube. Sega Genesis: Well, this heres pretty obvious - the 16 bit lovable genesis released in 1989. Anyway, the best beat-em-up ever is Streets of rage. Its one of my all time favorite games - and while I can't beat it, I can get to level 4 pretty easy - I made it to level 5 once, but that was by luck. If I practiced enough, I could beat it - but I get enough enjoyment out of it that beating it doesn't matter to me. Mortal kombat 1, 2, and 3 - Well, fighting. Nothing talks, but I don't care. I'm slowly learning all the moves. I love mk 3, though, its got the coolest music, and my favorite MK character of all - nightwolf! Sega CD: This heres an add on to the genesis. Its got the same color pallit - but better sound, more storage space - which means more things talk and more accessibility is here... Mortal Kombat for this system wasn't widely recognized. Bad graphics. Jesus. Who cares about graphics! Its basically MK1 for the genesis revamped to have characters names spoken, and music from the arcade version. The most horrible thing here though is the load times. Nearly 30 seconds between each fight. If you do a fatality, you have to wait about a second before it actually does it. Keep in mind I'm only brushing the top. I could go into much more details over each game, each system, etc. I'm missing a system or two here - but you get the idea. Mostly fighting games - but then again, Rush 2: extreme racing for the n64 was and still is one of the coolest racing games of all time. contact details: email: tcwoo...@shaw.ca and others msn: the_conman...@hotmail.com skype: the_conman283 system details: Hp pavillion dv5220CA notebook pc AMD Turion(tm) 64 Mobile Technology ML-37 2.0 GHZ, 1024 mb DDR ram, Fujitsu 100 gb 4500 RPM Hard Drive, connecsant AC-link audio - Original Message - From: Mani Djazmi i_am_a_s...@hotmail.com To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:11 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi, my name's Mani Djazmi and I'm a reporter on the In Touch programme at BBC Radio 4 in England. I'm currently researching a feature on the accessability of computer games for blind and partially sighted people. The impression I'm getting is that mainstream games generally aren't very accessible so bespoke ones are being produced. Is this fair? Do any of you guys play mainstream games and how do you find them? I look forward to hearing your thoughts and knowledge. Cheers Mani _ Check out the new and improved services from Windows Live. Learn more! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/132630768/direct/01/ --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.4/1976 - Release Date: 02/27/09 13:27:00 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.4/1976 - Release Date: 02/27/09 13:27:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
True enough. I would wager that most of the sidescrollers could be made accessible with the efforts of a good programmer and audio person who took sound seriously as a means of conveying functional information rather than window dressing. Surreal Horrizons was extremely close to releasing a splendid version of Asteroids for us. I dearly wish that had not been abandonned. We've seen more than one racing game now. I would also think a lot of puzzle games could be done. The economics just aren't there to attract people yet. Unless they are in some way personally connected to the blind community, it's very unlikely we'll see their efforts directed at us. Michael Feir Author of Personal Power: How Accessible Computers Can Enhance Personal Life For Blind People 2006-2008 www.blind-planet.com/content/personal-power A Life of Word and Sound 2003-2007 http://www.blind-planet.com/content/life-word-and-sound Creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine 1996-2004 Check out my blog at: www.michaelfeir.blogspot.com - Original Message - From: Darren Harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 7:36 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi, The point is, a lot of these so-called accessible games are nothing more than rince and repete type games. Which actually does annoy me because so much more could be done and yet isn't. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Constantine Sent: 28 February 2009 01:50 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi I'm a classic gamer myself. I think I'm one in 100 because there doesn't seem to be much interest here. Anyway, onto my report - I'll make this as detailed as I can, sorta. Well, to start off with, I own a sega genesis, soon to own a sega cd, 3do and dreamcast - I also own a n64, and gamecube. Sega Genesis: Well, this heres pretty obvious - the 16 bit lovable genesis released in 1989. Anyway, the best beat-em-up ever is Streets of rage. Its one of my all time favorite games - and while I can't beat it, I can get to level 4 pretty easy - I made it to level 5 once, but that was by luck. If I practiced enough, I could beat it - but I get enough enjoyment out of it that beating it doesn't matter to me. Mortal kombat 1, 2, and 3 - Well, fighting. Nothing talks, but I don't care. I'm slowly learning all the moves. I love mk 3, though, its got the coolest music, and my favorite MK character of all - nightwolf! Sega CD: This heres an add on to the genesis. Its got the same color pallit - but better sound, more storage space - which means more things talk and more accessibility is here... Mortal Kombat for this system wasn't widely recognized. Bad graphics. Jesus. Who cares about graphics! Its basically MK1 for the genesis revamped to have characters names spoken, and music from the arcade version. The most horrible thing here though is the load times. Nearly 30 seconds between each fight. If you do a fatality, you have to wait about a second before it actually does it. Keep in mind I'm only brushing the top. I could go into much more details over each game, each system, etc. I'm missing a system or two here - but you get the idea. Mostly fighting games - but then again, Rush 2: extreme racing for the n64 was and still is one of the coolest racing games of all time. contact details: email: tcwoo...@shaw.ca and others msn: the_conman...@hotmail.com skype: the_conman283 system details: Hp pavillion dv5220CA notebook pc AMD Turion(tm) 64 Mobile Technology ML-37 2.0 GHZ, 1024 mb DDR ram, Fujitsu 100 gb 4500 RPM Hard Drive, connecsant AC-link audio - Original Message - From: Mani Djazmi i_am_a_s...@hotmail.com To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:11 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi, my name's Mani Djazmi and I'm a reporter on the In Touch programme at BBC Radio 4 in England. I'm currently researching a feature on the accessability of computer games for blind and partially sighted people. The impression I'm getting is that mainstream games generally aren't very accessible so bespoke ones are being produced. Is this fair? Do any of you guys play mainstream games and how do you find them? I look forward to hearing your thoughts and knowledge. Cheers Mani _ Check out the new and improved services from Windows Live. Learn more! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/132630768/direct/01/ --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi, But this is a point though that I've made time and time and time again on this list. How many people outside of this little community actually know about audyssey and said games? Very few people. I only found out by word of mouth and quite frankly word of mouth just isn't good enough. I do my bit where I can and tell people about these games but the point is, if people just aren't going to invest in advertising, then quite honestly, they'll never sell. Ok so Phil's site has a list of games. So does whitestick. And other such sites but they are targeted purely inwardly at this community. I'm sorry but it just doesn't work. I've asked this question before and the question still stands. Why aren't people targeting the likes of the various blindness related organizations around the world with these games? Offering free demo's and the like? What about all in play, why not offer games as part of a poker competition? I've not seen 1 all in play competition where by a game developer from this list has actually stepped up to the plate and offered x amount of keys to winners of said competition. Yes I accept that a lot of these guys are 1 man bands, but if you don't invest, you don't get anything back. You can't just slap a game out there and hope that somebody will buy it. That's just pointless and being frank about it, bad business sense quite honestly. They will never get off the ground and make money of any kind or even cover their costs if they aren't prepared to do some good old advertising. Another point here. How many game clones are there out here now that are in affect, in breech of copy write. Shades of doom, pacman as well. Both brilliant creations, I'm not even saying that they aren't they are excellent. Pacman especially it's the best one of the bunch if you ask me from what I've seen so far. Because you really do lose nothing from playing the original game or this game. So another reason why these developers cannot advertise properly. Because half of the content isn't even legal. And sorry I'm going to say it. People really should stop hashing up games from the passed and instead look forward to the future. Investigate the possibility of making said content legal. Try and negotiate deals with the various companies and the like. Even prepare code that you've written up and submit it to them. Prove that it can be done. To my mind, there is a whole lot more to making things accessible than just by saying, ok lets just slap this together and hoping it sells, where is this actually getting anybody. Nowhere. Where is the awareness? Who's making people aware that there is: 1. a demand for these games. 2. proof that said games can be either coded or adapted such as audio quaik. Now there is proof if any that things can be done to make things work. It's only because in touch have come on this list and asked about it that we're debating this again, and I really do hope that some of these points really do get aired on the show I honestly do. It puts the word out. Since this was first posted, only Thomas, as far as I know out of the game developers has come up and made a good comment on the state of play with games. Good for you for saying what you did!! But equally, this pointless rehashing the passed really does have to stop. I haven't bought a blind friendly game for ages because I look at half the titles and I think, I've played that before or something very like it, some of it I could even have in 1 form or other on my old mega drive so why would I want to buy it again? There's a lot to be said for opening up to the wider community at large and seeing exactly what you can find. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Michael Feir Sent: 28 February 2009 13:14 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games True enough. I would wager that most of the sidescrollers could be made accessible with the efforts of a good programmer and audio person who took sound seriously as a means of conveying functional information rather than window dressing. Surreal Horrizons was extremely close to releasing a splendid version of Asteroids for us. I dearly wish that had not been abandonned. We've seen more than one racing game now. I would also think a lot of puzzle games could be done. The economics just aren't there to attract people yet. Unless they are in some way personally connected to the blind community, it's very unlikely we'll see their efforts directed at us. Michael Feir Author of Personal Power: How Accessible Computers Can Enhance Personal Life For Blind People 2006-2008 www.blind-planet.com/content/personal-power A Life of Word and Sound 2003-2007 http://www.blind-planet.com/content/life-word-and-sound Creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine 1996-2004 Check out my blog at: www.michaelfeir.blogspot.com - Original Message - From: Darren Harris darren_g_har
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi Speaking of that game I wonder if it's been abandoned? It was truely coming along in a most amazing fashion. Ron - Original Message - From: Michael Feir michael.f...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 8:13 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games True enough. I would wager that most of the sidescrollers could be made accessible with the efforts of a good programmer and audio person who took sound seriously as a means of conveying functional information rather than window dressing. Surreal Horrizons was extremely close to releasing a splendid version of Asteroids for us. I dearly wish that had not been abandonned. We've seen more than one racing game now. I would also think a lot of puzzle games could be done. The economics just aren't there to attract people yet. Unless they are in some way personally connected to the blind community, it's very unlikely we'll see their efforts directed at us. Michael Feir Author of Personal Power: How Accessible Computers Can Enhance Personal Life For Blind People 2006-2008 www.blind-planet.com/content/personal-power A Life of Word and Sound 2003-2007 http://www.blind-planet.com/content/life-word-and-sound Creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine 1996-2004 Check out my blog at: www.michaelfeir.blogspot.com - Original Message - From: Darren Harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 7:36 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi, The point is, a lot of these so-called accessible games are nothing more than rince and repete type games. Which actually does annoy me because so much more could be done and yet isn't. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Constantine Sent: 28 February 2009 01:50 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi I'm a classic gamer myself. I think I'm one in 100 because there doesn't seem to be much interest here. Anyway, onto my report - I'll make this as detailed as I can, sorta. Well, to start off with, I own a sega genesis, soon to own a sega cd, 3do and dreamcast - I also own a n64, and gamecube. Sega Genesis: Well, this heres pretty obvious - the 16 bit lovable genesis released in 1989. Anyway, the best beat-em-up ever is Streets of rage. Its one of my all time favorite games - and while I can't beat it, I can get to level 4 pretty easy - I made it to level 5 once, but that was by luck. If I practiced enough, I could beat it - but I get enough enjoyment out of it that beating it doesn't matter to me. Mortal kombat 1, 2, and 3 - Well, fighting. Nothing talks, but I don't care. I'm slowly learning all the moves. I love mk 3, though, its got the coolest music, and my favorite MK character of all - nightwolf! Sega CD: This heres an add on to the genesis. Its got the same color pallit - but better sound, more storage space - which means more things talk and more accessibility is here... Mortal Kombat for this system wasn't widely recognized. Bad graphics. Jesus. Who cares about graphics! Its basically MK1 for the genesis revamped to have characters names spoken, and music from the arcade version. The most horrible thing here though is the load times. Nearly 30 seconds between each fight. If you do a fatality, you have to wait about a second before it actually does it. Keep in mind I'm only brushing the top. I could go into much more details over each game, each system, etc. I'm missing a system or two here - but you get the idea. Mostly fighting games - but then again, Rush 2: extreme racing for the n64 was and still is one of the coolest racing games of all time. contact details: email: tcwoo...@shaw.ca and others msn: the_conman...@hotmail.com skype: the_conman283 system details: Hp pavillion dv5220CA notebook pc AMD Turion(tm) 64 Mobile Technology ML-37 2.0 GHZ, 1024 mb DDR ram, Fujitsu 100 gb 4500 RPM Hard Drive, connecsant AC-link audio - Original Message - From: Mani Djazmi i_am_a_s...@hotmail.com To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:11 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi, my name's Mani Djazmi and I'm a reporter on the In Touch programme at BBC Radio 4 in England. I'm currently researching a feature on the accessability of computer games for blind and partially sighted people. The impression I'm getting is that mainstream games generally aren't very accessible so bespoke ones are being produced. Is this fair? Do any of you guys play mainstream games and how do you find them? I look forward to hearing your thoughts and knowledge. Cheers Mani _ Check out the new and improved services from Windows Live
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi, *quote* Darren Said: Who's making people aware that there is: 1. a demand for these games. 2. proof that said games can be either coded or adapted such as audio quaik. Tom Says: Believe it or not there are some organizations doing this. The IGDA goes to several mainstream gaming conventions hoping to promote accessibility awareness as well as make said companies aware of where accessibility technology is today. I'm not real clear on the latest on that front, but Richard from audiogames.net can tell you more on what groups he is involved with that do this sort of thing. *quote end* Thanks Tom. Yes, the IGDA Game Accessibility Special Interest Group (GA-SIG: http://www.igda.org/wiki/Game_Accessibility_SIG ) is currently the most active group out there to promote the accessibility of games. For about 5 years members of the GA-SIG have been doing talks at key game industry events such as GDC, DIGRA Conference, E4All, FuturePlay, Montreal Game Summit, SIGGRAPH and Develop Brighton, as well as more disability related conferences such as ICCHP and ICEVI and disability computer camps such as ICC. Next to spreading the word face to face, there are/have been several webinitiatives such as Game-Accessibility.com, AbleGamers.com and DeafGamers.com (to name only a few) to target the Google-crowd and help potential gamers who are not yet aware of accessible games to stumble upon the subject. And next to this, members of the IGDA frequently publish articles on important industry websites, such as Gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=13650) and TerraNova (http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2007/05/what_do_we_mean.html). And next to this, several of us at IGDA work as lecturers/researchers at design academies/universities as well, through which we are able to introduce game accessibility to new generations of game designers. For example, I've been teaching a class in game accessibility for three consecutive years now, in which a total of about 150 game designers had to create audio games. And on a final note: several of us also work in (or used to work in thus still having close ties with) the professional game industry, sharing the topic through that way. Greets, Richard --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
I agree. We have maybe 10 card games of each type. What we need is a fighting style game like mortal kombat, complete with special moves and fatalities. This is something most games lack - replayability. I can play trupenum for so long, but honestly it gets so boring. Rail racer has more, though, like unlockables when you go up in class - which makes total sense. contact details: email: tcwoo...@shaw.ca and others msn: the_conman...@hotmail.com skype: the_conman283 system details: Hp pavillion dv5220CA notebook pc AMD Turion(tm) 64 Mobile Technology ML-37 2.0 GHZ, 1024 mb DDR ram, Fujitsu 100 gb 4500 RPM Hard Drive, connecsant AC-link audio - Original Message - From: Darren Harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 6:36 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi, The point is, a lot of these so-called accessible games are nothing more than rince and repete type games. Which actually does annoy me because so much more could be done and yet isn't. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Constantine Sent: 28 February 2009 01:50 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi I'm a classic gamer myself. I think I'm one in 100 because there doesn't seem to be much interest here. Anyway, onto my report - I'll make this as detailed as I can, sorta. Well, to start off with, I own a sega genesis, soon to own a sega cd, 3do and dreamcast - I also own a n64, and gamecube. Sega Genesis: Well, this heres pretty obvious - the 16 bit lovable genesis released in 1989. Anyway, the best beat-em-up ever is Streets of rage. Its one of my all time favorite games - and while I can't beat it, I can get to level 4 pretty easy - I made it to level 5 once, but that was by luck. If I practiced enough, I could beat it - but I get enough enjoyment out of it that beating it doesn't matter to me. Mortal kombat 1, 2, and 3 - Well, fighting. Nothing talks, but I don't care. I'm slowly learning all the moves. I love mk 3, though, its got the coolest music, and my favorite MK character of all - nightwolf! Sega CD: This heres an add on to the genesis. Its got the same color pallit - but better sound, more storage space - which means more things talk and more accessibility is here... Mortal Kombat for this system wasn't widely recognized. Bad graphics. Jesus. Who cares about graphics! Its basically MK1 for the genesis revamped to have characters names spoken, and music from the arcade version. The most horrible thing here though is the load times. Nearly 30 seconds between each fight. If you do a fatality, you have to wait about a second before it actually does it. Keep in mind I'm only brushing the top. I could go into much more details over each game, each system, etc. I'm missing a system or two here - but you get the idea. Mostly fighting games - but then again, Rush 2: extreme racing for the n64 was and still is one of the coolest racing games of all time. contact details: email: tcwoo...@shaw.ca and others msn: the_conman...@hotmail.com skype: the_conman283 system details: Hp pavillion dv5220CA notebook pc AMD Turion(tm) 64 Mobile Technology ML-37 2.0 GHZ, 1024 mb DDR ram, Fujitsu 100 gb 4500 RPM Hard Drive, connecsant AC-link audio - Original Message - From: Mani Djazmi i_am_a_s...@hotmail.com To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:11 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi, my name's Mani Djazmi and I'm a reporter on the In Touch programme at BBC Radio 4 in England. I'm currently researching a feature on the accessability of computer games for blind and partially sighted people. The impression I'm getting is that mainstream games generally aren't very accessible so bespoke ones are being produced. Is this fair? Do any of you guys play mainstream games and how do you find them? I look forward to hearing your thoughts and knowledge. Cheers Mani _ Check out the new and improved services from Windows Live. Learn more! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/132630768/direct/01/ --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
well what has happened to them. they went dark all of a sudden, lists, site the load. the site is still up but nothing is on there. and no warning. I don't think its been abandoned but for whatever reason the whole company has just gone offline. At 03:59 a.m. 1/03/2009, you wrote: Hi Speaking of that game I wonder if it's been abandoned? It was truely coming along in a most amazing fashion. Ron - Original Message - From: Michael Feir michael.f...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 8:13 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games True enough. I would wager that most of the sidescrollers could be made accessible with the efforts of a good programmer and audio person who took sound seriously as a means of conveying functional information rather than window dressing. Surreal Horrizons was extremely close to releasing a splendid version of Asteroids for us. I dearly wish that had not been abandonned. We've seen more than one racing game now. I would also think a lot of puzzle games could be done. The economics just aren't there to attract people yet. Unless they are in some way personally connected to the blind community, it's very unlikely we'll see their efforts directed at us. Michael Feir Author of Personal Power: How Accessible Computers Can Enhance Personal Life For Blind People 2006-2008 www.blind-planet.com/content/personal-power A Life of Word and Sound 2003-2007 http://www.blind-planet.com/content/life-word-and-sound Creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine 1996-2004 Check out my blog at: www.michaelfeir.blogspot.com - Original Message - From: Darren Harris darren_g_har...@btinternet.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 7:36 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi, The point is, a lot of these so-called accessible games are nothing more than rince and repete type games. Which actually does annoy me because so much more could be done and yet isn't. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Constantine Sent: 28 February 2009 01:50 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi I'm a classic gamer myself. I think I'm one in 100 because there doesn't seem to be much interest here. Anyway, onto my report - I'll make this as detailed as I can, sorta. Well, to start off with, I own a sega genesis, soon to own a sega cd, 3do and dreamcast - I also own a n64, and gamecube. Sega Genesis: Well, this heres pretty obvious - the 16 bit lovable genesis released in 1989. Anyway, the best beat-em-up ever is Streets of rage. Its one of my all time favorite games - and while I can't beat it, I can get to level 4 pretty easy - I made it to level 5 once, but that was by luck. If I practiced enough, I could beat it - but I get enough enjoyment out of it that beating it doesn't matter to me. Mortal kombat 1, 2, and 3 - Well, fighting. Nothing talks, but I don't care. I'm slowly learning all the moves. I love mk 3, though, its got the coolest music, and my favorite MK character of all - nightwolf! Sega CD: This heres an add on to the genesis. Its got the same color pallit - but better sound, more storage space - which means more things talk and more accessibility is here... Mortal Kombat for this system wasn't widely recognized. Bad graphics. Jesus. Who cares about graphics! Its basically MK1 for the genesis revamped to have characters names spoken, and music from the arcade version. The most horrible thing here though is the load times. Nearly 30 seconds between each fight. If you do a fatality, you have to wait about a second before it actually does it. Keep in mind I'm only brushing the top. I could go into much more details over each game, each system, etc. I'm missing a system or two here - but you get the idea. Mostly fighting games - but then again, Rush 2: extreme racing for the n64 was and still is one of the coolest racing games of all time. contact details: email: tcwoo...@shaw.ca and others msn: the_conman...@hotmail.com skype: the_conman283 system details: Hp pavillion dv5220CA notebook pc AMD Turion(tm) 64 Mobile Technology ML-37 2.0 GHZ, 1024 mb DDR ram, Fujitsu 100 gb 4500 RPM Hard Drive, connecsant AC-link audio - Original Message - From: Mani Djazmi i_am_a_s...@hotmail.com To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:11 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi, my name's Mani Djazmi and I'm a reporter on the In Touch programme at BBC Radio 4 in England. I'm currently researching a feature on the accessability of computer games for blind and partially sighted people. The impression I'm getting is that mainstream games generally aren't very accessible so bespoke ones are being produced
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi Ron, The websites I mentioned are running their own gaming engines. They have converted sets of game books into HTML format and are then running them through their engines. Out of the two of them, www.ffproject.com has the more advanced engine. It does automatic dice roles, score tracking on its own. All you need to do to play the game is to click on links in a browser. There are however some points in the game books is specially on www.projectaon.org that could be made more accessible. For example, I distinctly remember a graphical puzzle that had to be solved before one could take one's ship in a given direction. Other than that, these games are extremely accessible. I'm sure these game books would have been mentioned on this list before. smile Pranav -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Ron Schamerhorn Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 8:45 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi Pranav As long as it's a game it's quite welcome to talk about here. I'd like to know more about the ones you mentioned. Ron - Original Message - From: Pranav Lal pranav@gmail.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 9:56 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games High, When talking about games, do we also include game books such as www.projectaon.org and www.ffproject.com? If yes, then those are of course completely accessible. In some cases, static content such as maps needs to be rendered in an accessible form. Pranav --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
I have looked at game books on ffproject but not persued them maybe its time I tried again. At 02:00 p.m. 1/03/2009, you wrote: Hi Ron, The websites I mentioned are running their own gaming engines. They have converted sets of game books into HTML format and are then running them through their engines. Out of the two of them, www.ffproject.com has the more advanced engine. It does automatic dice roles, score tracking on its own. All you need to do to play the game is to click on links in a browser. There are however some points in the game books is specially on www.projectaon.org that could be made more accessible. For example, I distinctly remember a graphical puzzle that had to be solved before one could take one's ship in a given direction. Other than that, these games are extremely accessible. I'm sure these game books would have been mentioned on this list before. smile Pranav -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Ron Schamerhorn Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 8:45 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi Pranav As long as it's a game it's quite welcome to talk about here. I'd like to know more about the ones you mentioned. Ron - Original Message - From: Pranav Lal pranav@gmail.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 9:56 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games High, When talking about games, do we also include game books such as www.projectaon.org and www.ffproject.com? If yes, then those are of course completely accessible. In some cases, static content such as maps needs to be rendered in an accessible form. Pranav --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi Michael, Michael Said: True enough. I would wager that most of the sidescrollers could be made accessible with the efforts of a good programmer and audio person who took sound seriously. tom Says: I'd agree with that. Side-scrollers are already fairly simple in that you basically move left to right so the direction of action is fairly clear. Then, add to that that all that is really required here is a simple stereo pan control. Every llanguages audio API from Javax.Sampled.Sound, to SDL, to DirectX has a simple pan control. So actually positioning the sounds left or right is really easy from a programmers point of view. Take a game like Mario. All it needs to be accessible is sound effects for everything that indicates when to jump over this or that, sounds to indicate when a certain flower is near, etc. I've beaten the first couple of levels with memory alone in the passed so if sounds and speech were added it would not be difficult at all. I guess the most frustrating thing is knowing the game is so close to being accessible do to a good layout and design, but so far away because of lack of audio content. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
I agree with this whole message. On Feb 28, 2009, at 8:43 AM, Darren Harris wrote: Hi, But this is a point though that I've made time and time and time again on this list. How many people outside of this little community actually know about audyssey and said games? Very few people. I only found out by word of mouth and quite frankly word of mouth just isn't good enough. I do my bit where I can and tell people about these games but the point is, if people just aren't going to invest in advertising, then quite honestly, they'll never sell. Ok so Phil's site has a list of games. So does whitestick. And other such sites but they are targeted purely inwardly at this community. I'm sorry but it just doesn't work. I've asked this question before and the question still stands. Why aren't people targeting the likes of the various blindness related organizations around the world with these games? Offering free demo's and the like? What about all in play, why not offer games as part of a poker competition? I've not seen 1 all in play competition where by a game developer from this list has actually stepped up to the plate and offered x amount of keys to winners of said competition. Yes I accept that a lot of these guys are 1 man bands, but if you don't invest, you don't get anything back. You can't just slap a game out there and hope that somebody will buy it. That's just pointless and being frank about it, bad business sense quite honestly. They will never get off the ground and make money of any kind or even cover their costs if they aren't prepared to do some good old advertising. Another point here. How many game clones are there out here now that are in affect, in breech of copy write. Shades of doom, pacman as well. Both brilliant creations, I'm not even saying that they aren't they are excellent. Pacman especially it's the best one of the bunch if you ask me from what I've seen so far. Because you really do lose nothing from playing the original game or this game. So another reason why these developers cannot advertise properly. Because half of the content isn't even legal. And sorry I'm going to say it. People really should stop hashing up games from the passed and instead look forward to the future. Investigate the possibility of making said content legal. Try and negotiate deals with the various companies and the like. Even prepare code that you've written up and submit it to them. Prove that it can be done. To my mind, there is a whole lot more to making things accessible than just by saying, ok lets just slap this together and hoping it sells, where is this actually getting anybody. Nowhere. Where is the awareness? Who's making people aware that there is: 1. a demand for these games. 2. proof that said games can be either coded or adapted such as audio quaik. Now there is proof if any that things can be done to make things work. It's only because in touch have come on this list and asked about it that we're debating this again, and I really do hope that some of these points really do get aired on the show I honestly do. It puts the word out. Since this was first posted, only Thomas, as far as I know out of the game developers has come up and made a good comment on the state of play with games. Good for you for saying what you did!! But equally, this pointless rehashing the passed really does have to stop. I haven't bought a blind friendly game for ages because I look at half the titles and I think, I've played that before or something very like it, some of it I could even have in 1 form or other on my old mega drive so why would I want to buy it again? There's a lot to be said for opening up to the wider community at large and seeing exactly what you can find. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Michael Feir Sent: 28 February 2009 13:14 To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games True enough. I would wager that most of the sidescrollers could be made accessible with the efforts of a good programmer and audio person who took sound seriously as a means of conveying functional information rather than window dressing. Surreal Horrizons was extremely close to releasing a splendid version of Asteroids for us. I dearly wish that had not been abandonned. We've seen more than one racing game now. I would also think a lot of puzzle games could be done. The economics just aren't there to attract people yet. Unless they are in some way personally connected to the blind community, it's very unlikely we'll see their efforts directed at us. Michael Feir Author of Personal Power: How Accessible Computers Can Enhance Personal Life For Blind People 2006-2008 www.blind-planet.com/content/personal-power A Life of Word and Sound 2003-2007 http://www.blind-planet.com/content/life-word-and-sound Creator and former editor of Audyssey
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi Michael, many thanks for such a comprehensive reply. Do you live in England by any chance? Cheers Mani From: michael.f...@gmail.com To: gamers@audyssey.org Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 21:39:32 -0500 Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hello Mani. I've been an intermittant listener of In Touch for years. A very well-done show indeed. Your arrival on this list is most timely. Tom Ward has just galvanised things with the release of his first public beta level of Mysteries of the Ancients. That's woken the list up for certain. Che Martin is another developer you'll definitely want to chat with. Quite a few of the people currently developing accessible games either had sight or have it. All of our developers have their own interesting stories. As the creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine, I got to know several of them over the years. People get into this for the passion and interest in what they do. We've certainly come a long way together since I published the first issue in 96. Ron Schamerhorn's the current editor and has a somewhat better grasp on the state of things these days. Life has pulled me in some different directions but I still keep an ear on things and try to help where I can. I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have about past developments. You'll find quite a range of oppinion here concerning what constitutes an accessible game. I'm happy to see that you've already gotten a few responses. There are plenty more to be had as the debate is one of long standing in this community. There is a stronger sense among sighted game developers these days regarding the use of sound as more than window dressing. That's going to eventually pay off for us but I don't believe we're anywhere near that point yet. Personally, I'm from the old school which says that a game can only be counted as accessible if blind people can truly play it as it was intended to be played and have access to all information. They shouldn't be handycapped in any way in terms of how far they can get with a game due to being blind. Sight brings an incredible amount of information very rapidly to a person. To be accessible, a great deal of thought must go into the sound of a game as well as the interface. That means I don't view arcade games designed for sighted people as technically accessible. We're just not privy to all the information. Playing something via shere memorisation and luck just doesn't count for me. Other people have fun doing that sort of thing. There was a fellow who is now world famous due to his skill in playing Mortal Combat.As a child, I used to be more in the if I can have fun with it, then it's accessible camp. My father would take me to arcades and we'd try to play the videogames together. He'd desperately try to describe things as fast as possible and I'd be in charge of the controls. It was certainly fun at the time and there was a good degree of cameradery. However, when you take all the bells and whistles away, I was just following my father's instructions as quickly as possible. I eventually tried a game on my own and found out just how much of the experience I was missing as I got obliterated due to having no idea of the game situation. When you reduce a game to purely responding to sound cues and memorization, it stops being at all the same kind of fun that sighted people enjoy. There are a number of tragic cases of games which are almost accessible and could easily have been made so to the benefit of all players whether sighted or blind. The most disappointing one during my editorship of Audyssey was the North American version of Who Wants to Be a Millionaire. The questions were printed onto the screen rather than read out loud as they are in the show and apparently in the UK version of the computer game. A very disappointingly inaccessible Christmas present for our family. Other games like the You Don't Know Jack series are again very close to being accessible. In fact, for the earlier games in that series, nearly all of the game was. There were some visual questions making reference to pictures though. Also, there were the jack attacks which flashed up printed clues and information which had to be matched. With some elements like that, it simply can become impossible to accomodate. You could have a trivia game with questions all read aloud and no visual questions but it wouldn't be You Don't Know Jack. The same goes for such elements in many video games. We're simply too small a market to be worth a company's while. That's the major problem. Michael Feir Author of Personal Power: How Accessible Computers Can Enhance Personal Life For Blind People 2006-2008 www.blind-planet.com/content/personal-power A Life of Word and Sound 2003-2007 http://www.blind-planet.com/content/life-word-and-sound Creator and former editor
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hello Darren. A nice meaty post for a saturday morning. It raises two very crutial issues for games accessible to blind people and the developers of said games. I'll offer my perspective on both of them. Let's start off with advertising and awareness. To be blunt, it has proved extremely hard to get the word out. I tried all the time while I was editor of Audyssey and I have no doubt Ron has as well. Even when I took opportunities to approach people who you'd think would be predisposed to be receptive, I met largely with a blank wall. On one occasion, I approached the SCORE computer camp run by the Canadian National Institute for the Blind. This was in 1998 when I was a junior staff member that Summer. They had all the facilities one could wish for including numerous computers. There were certainly some nifty games out there. However, they weren't the least bit interested in letting the teens have a crack at them. They would rather keep recreation completely separate. The only place I had any success at all was at the grass roots level. I participated in a couple of youth days demonstrating games after showing some to a few living skills instructors. I'd love to show my current oM instructor a few of the games including Tom's beta of MOTA. However, those people are so over-worked that there's just no time. Even when I announced my computer guide to them, nobody even answered me. I still have some hope of getting it published through their library as a Daisy book for people. However, I haven't heard back from the person who finally did pay some attention to it in a couple of months now. These organisations for the blind can be very slow to act even when you dangle a free carrot in front of them. Despite a lot of the management doubtless having experienced the value of computer games first-hand, there's no drive even to spread awareness of their existance let alone sponsore their development. Developers have also been trying over the years. I know Dave Greenwood and Phil Vlasak have made extensive efforts and gone to great lengths. Don't think nobody has put any effort into this side of things. We have a week in Canada called White Cane Week. I've made repeated attempts to get the mainstream press interested on the grounds of human interest stories about accessible games for blind people. So far, I've had no luck with that approach at all. Perhaps, others have had more success. I know Che Martin was on an NPR program once. I've been on Wired along with some of the accessible game developers as well as in Time Magazine's technology section. Those moments in the sun are very few and far between though. Also, where are most of us going to find the money for widespread advertising? That in itself is a tremendous barrier. I've begun work on a game which is likely to take me around five years to complete. As part of that, I found and purchased a sound effects library as well as royalty-free music. All totaled, I've spent around $800 over the years. To recover that investment, at a price of $30 per game, I need to sell something like 30 coppies. Price games much higher than that as Bavisoft's Grizzly Gultch demonstrated and you're going to have a lot of piracy going on. This is especially the case if you don't invest in security. When it comes to that, I'm going to follow Malinche's lead and rely on the loyalty and honesty of my customers rather than deal with security head-aches. Now I have very little doubt that if I manage to finish the game, at least thirty people are going to buy it. I like to think I've earned at least that much trust and good will over the years. However, there'll be continuing costs associated with keeping the game available for sale. Even if I just sell it as a downloadable file, there's bandwidth to pay for. A lot of these developers have families as well. Do you invest in advertising a game you've developed as a hobby or do you put that spare cash in savings or towards your kids? Game publishing companies can pay in advance for game development since they have some idea of selling at least a minimum number of copies once the game's published. None of them will invest in accessible games or even in adding accessibility to existing games since they just won't see a return on that investment of any consequence. I remember an article a ways back where an estimate of something like two or three thousand audio games were sold in a given year if you combined the sales of all accessible game developers. I don't think you'd even be able to interest a publisher of casual games like Popcap Games in that kind of low prediction. Look at it another way. Even if I produced a stupendously good game which sold a thousand copies, I'd barely make what an average sighted programmer would consider to be a living. The economics of producing games are very tight. Even a majorly successful developer like Dave Greenwood can't make producing
[Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi, my name's Mani Djazmi and I'm a reporter on the In Touch programme at BBC Radio 4 in England. I'm currently researching a feature on the accessability of computer games for blind and partially sighted people. The impression I'm getting is that mainstream games generally aren't very accessible so bespoke ones are being produced. Is this fair? Do any of you guys play mainstream games and how do you find them? I look forward to hearing your thoughts and knowledge. Cheers Mani _ Check out the new and improved services from Windows Live. Learn more! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/132630768/direct/01/ --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi Mani, Yes, that is pretty close to the truth. There are a few mainstream games, mostly in the fighting genre, that are accessible, but by and large most mainstream games aren't very accessible at all. That is why we have a very active community of blind game developers that write audio based games for the community. Some are free and some are commercially driven. Since you asked for mainstream games as I said above it largely appears like games in the hand to hand fighting genre such as Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, etc can be fairly accessible after the blind gamer practices and memorizes how to play the game. Also the WWE wrestling games such as WWE Smack down VS Raw series is fairly playable once the blind gamer gets use to listening to the various sounds, learns the moves, and does a lot of practice with it other games very depending on how much sight is required to play it.. In all cases a blind gamer has to write down or memorize things like menu layout, which buttons do what, as well as get familiar with what sounds mean what. So even if a mainstream game is playable it still takes a fair amount of practice, memorization, and learning to get any good with it. Mani Djazmi wrote: Hi, my name's Mani Djazmi and I'm a reporter on the In Touch programme at BBC Radio 4 in England. I'm currently researching a feature on the accessability of computer games for blind and partially sighted people. The impression I'm getting is that mainstream games generally aren't very accessible so bespoke ones are being produced. Is this fair? Do any of you guys play mainstream games and how do you find them? I look forward to hearing your thoughts and knowledge. Cheers Mani _ Check out the new and improved services from Windows Live. Learn more! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/132630768/direct/01/ --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi Mani, I'm not sure if it can be summed up quite so simply. For me, there's a big difference between totally accessible and playable with gaming, just as there's a difference between totally accessible and usable with other flavours of software. Mainstream games usually require a bit of extra work in that it's exceedingly rare to find a talking menue system, things like high scores usually aren't accessible to us, and there are a couple of genres that if I were generalising I'd classify as unplayable. All that said, there are a fair few VI gamers who don't mind that extra work and enjoy sharing their findings, so word tends to spread if a game is playable. Recently, I've realised that I have a completely different approach to gaming that depends on whether I'm playing a mainstream or an accessible title. When I'm playing mainstream titles it tends to all be quite lighthearted. The geek in me often can't resist digging that little bit deeper into special moves etc than perhaps I'd need too to finish a game, but that's a character trait. When I'm playing accessible games on the other hand, I find myself taking it a lot more seriously. I suppose this is because after years of playing mainstream titles that were playable for the fun of it, with a specialised title geared toward a VI player I've finally got control over every single option and I know that if there's any part of that game I can't master, it's not because I'm at any sort of disadvantage, it's simply down to the fact that someone has written a game that I can't beat yet. I think it's crucial that people (especially developers of accessible titles() have experience of both sides of the coin. It's because of this that you're now starting to see accessible titles with controller/mouse support, online play, unlockable content, and some of the other goodies that are pretty much standard stuff with mainstream titles. There's no getting away from the fact that some modern mainstream games are leaps and bounds ahead of what we've got in terms of complexity, but if you compare the budgets and man-hours spent on the creations of both industries that's hardly surprising. On the downside, we can't play some amazing mainstream titles, but on the upside that probably inspires developers of accessible titles to dig deep more than anything else. There's older and more seasoned gamers than me on this list as I'm only in my mid 20's, but from what I can tell, we seem to be moving forward at a faster rate than mainstream titles ever have. It was only a few years ago that every accessible game I encountered was too basic or too easy to hold my attention for long. Now I'm happy to say that I've bought copies of a few and spent way too much time enraged by them... in a good way of course. It's a bit of a ramble, but hope it helps in some way. Feel free to hit me back on or off list if there's anything I can expand upon or anything else I can do should In Touch want to run the feature. Cheers Scott On 2/27/09, Mani Djazmi i_am_a_s...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi, my name's Mani Djazmi and I'm a reporter on the In Touch programme at BBC Radio 4 in England. I'm currently researching a feature on the accessability of computer games for blind and partially sighted people. The impression I'm getting is that mainstream games generally aren't very accessible so bespoke ones are being produced. Is this fair? Do any of you guys play mainstream games and how do you find them? I look forward to hearing your thoughts and knowledge. Cheers Mani _ Check out the new and improved services from Windows Live. Learn more! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/132630768/direct/01/ --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
hello Mani and all. For my self I have not tried any of the mainstream games like ones for the ps3 or ps2 so can't speak to there accessibility. I do enjoy playing games for the blind though like shades of doom from game games, and other first person shooter type games. I know that there are others on this list though who have tried mainstream games and can play them quite fine. well these are my thoughts. from Mich Verrier from New Liskeard Ontario Canada. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi, This is a tricky one because it depends on your definition of accessible. For example, a lot of these games that are available for blind people to play, are not accessible or not so accessible to people who are lets say deaf blind. So firstly it's important to accurately define who these games are accessible for. In the majority of cases, you would need to be able to hear what you are doing in order to play the game, just as a sighted person would need their vision to be able to play the mainstream game. Or what I would consider to be mainstream. Now having said that, there are some games out there, that by accident, not design, are playable to various degrees whether you are totally blind or if you have some vision. There are some games out there which has already been said, that do require visual input as it were. For example, the x series of games from http://www.egosoft.com. Now I have only 10% vision in the left eye, and only light perception in the right. Yet I can fly the various ships within those games, tell them where to go, trade and fight. The thing that bugs me with these games, is that they have a pretty good audio system in the game, but they haven't made full use of it. At least not enough where by people like myself can play it. Now even if they did that, a totally blind person couldn't fly the ship or even fly it into combat and get out alive. But because of the fact that I can see, if only a little, a fully integrated audio system would go a long way towards making those games and games like it accessible. Now on the blind friendly games side of things, there isn't a game unfortunately that even comes close to this series of games, which I have followed and played avidly for 10 years now. Which I think is very sad because this is my favourite type of game. Whilst Thomas has said and quite accurately that the street fighter games and such are probably the most accessible form of game to play, that may be true but stuff like that just doesn't work for me for very long because that's not what I want. I used to play the origional Elite back in the 80's when I was 10 so that gives you an idea as to what type of gamer I am. And unfortunately nothing even remotely like the most simplistic forms of space sim has even come out on this community. So something like the x series of games from egosoft I would dearly love to see created. But all is not lost. There are online, web based games out there that people can play. I play 1 such game, http://www.war-facts.com. This is an online, empire building type of space game where by you start off on a planet with a single colony and you go out into the universe of over 10 star systems and well over 100 planets to colonise, explore, or conker depending on who's on it. This game hasn't been designed at all for blind persons to play, yet it is completely accessible thanks to some tweaking I have been suggesting to the developers over the years. They have listened and as such acted. It's what's kept me going back since 2004. and paying to go premium because I like the game. I wouldn't give my money if I didn't. -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Mani Djazmi Sent: 27 February 2009 16:11 To: gamers@audyssey.org Subject: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi, my name's Mani Djazmi and I'm a reporter on the In Touch programme at BBC Radio 4 in England. I'm currently researching a feature on the accessability of computer games for blind and partially sighted people. The impression I'm getting is that mainstream games generally aren't very accessible so bespoke ones are being produced. Is this fair? Do any of you guys play mainstream games and how do you find them? I look forward to hearing your thoughts and knowledge. Cheers Mani _ Check out the new and improved services from Windows Live. Learn more! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/132630768/direct/01/ --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.3/1974 - Release Date: 02/27/09 13:27:00 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.4/1976 - Release Date: 02/27/09 13:27:00 --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi I'm a classic gamer myself. I think I'm one in 100 because there doesn't seem to be much interest here. Anyway, onto my report - I'll make this as detailed as I can, sorta. Well, to start off with, I own a sega genesis, soon to own a sega cd, 3do and dreamcast - I also own a n64, and gamecube. Sega Genesis: Well, this heres pretty obvious - the 16 bit lovable genesis released in 1989. Anyway, the best beat-em-up ever is Streets of rage. Its one of my all time favorite games - and while I can't beat it, I can get to level 4 pretty easy - I made it to level 5 once, but that was by luck. If I practiced enough, I could beat it - but I get enough enjoyment out of it that beating it doesn't matter to me. Mortal kombat 1, 2, and 3 - Well, fighting. Nothing talks, but I don't care. I'm slowly learning all the moves. I love mk 3, though, its got the coolest music, and my favorite MK character of all - nightwolf! Sega CD: This heres an add on to the genesis. Its got the same color pallit - but better sound, more storage space - which means more things talk and more accessibility is here... Mortal Kombat for this system wasn't widely recognized. Bad graphics. Jesus. Who cares about graphics! Its basically MK1 for the genesis revamped to have characters names spoken, and music from the arcade version. The most horrible thing here though is the load times. Nearly 30 seconds between each fight. If you do a fatality, you have to wait about a second before it actually does it. Keep in mind I'm only brushing the top. I could go into much more details over each game, each system, etc. I'm missing a system or two here - but you get the idea. Mostly fighting games - but then again, Rush 2: extreme racing for the n64 was and still is one of the coolest racing games of all time. contact details: email: tcwoo...@shaw.ca and others msn: the_conman...@hotmail.com skype: the_conman283 system details: Hp pavillion dv5220CA notebook pc AMD Turion(tm) 64 Mobile Technology ML-37 2.0 GHZ, 1024 mb DDR ram, Fujitsu 100 gb 4500 RPM Hard Drive, connecsant AC-link audio - Original Message - From: Mani Djazmi i_am_a_s...@hotmail.com To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:11 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi, my name's Mani Djazmi and I'm a reporter on the In Touch programme at BBC Radio 4 in England. I'm currently researching a feature on the accessability of computer games for blind and partially sighted people. The impression I'm getting is that mainstream games generally aren't very accessible so bespoke ones are being produced. Is this fair? Do any of you guys play mainstream games and how do you find them? I look forward to hearing your thoughts and knowledge. Cheers Mani _ Check out the new and improved services from Windows Live. Learn more! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/132630768/direct/01/ --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi, I couldn't agree more here. I've said it again and again. USA games will be our next gen console. I think that Che was our PS2. Anyway, I agree with you there. A huge help, for some games at least, is gamefaqs.com. They have FAQS for almost all games - except, of course, some classics - which is my cup of tea. Oh, and there's a lot of memorization involved here, too. Memorizing menus, controler buttons, special moves - say left, high punch, low kick, etc. It can be quite frustrating. I'll never forget, though, when I did my first ever fatality and heard the doo doo doo! Music on mk3. I tried for days to master it. And when I did, it seemed that I could do any sort of special move on mortal kombat. contact details: email: tcwoo...@shaw.ca and others msn: the_conman...@hotmail.com skype: the_conman283 system details: Hp pavillion dv5220CA notebook pc AMD Turion(tm) 64 Mobile Technology ML-37 2.0 GHZ, 1024 mb DDR ram, Fujitsu 100 gb 4500 RPM Hard Drive, connecsant AC-link audio - Original Message - From: Scott Chesworth scottcheswo...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 11:40 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi Mani, I'm not sure if it can be summed up quite so simply. For me, there's a big difference between totally accessible and playable with gaming, just as there's a difference between totally accessible and usable with other flavours of software. Mainstream games usually require a bit of extra work in that it's exceedingly rare to find a talking menue system, things like high scores usually aren't accessible to us, and there are a couple of genres that if I were generalising I'd classify as unplayable. All that said, there are a fair few VI gamers who don't mind that extra work and enjoy sharing their findings, so word tends to spread if a game is playable. Recently, I've realised that I have a completely different approach to gaming that depends on whether I'm playing a mainstream or an accessible title. When I'm playing mainstream titles it tends to all be quite lighthearted. The geek in me often can't resist digging that little bit deeper into special moves etc than perhaps I'd need too to finish a game, but that's a character trait. When I'm playing accessible games on the other hand, I find myself taking it a lot more seriously. I suppose this is because after years of playing mainstream titles that were playable for the fun of it, with a specialised title geared toward a VI player I've finally got control over every single option and I know that if there's any part of that game I can't master, it's not because I'm at any sort of disadvantage, it's simply down to the fact that someone has written a game that I can't beat yet. I think it's crucial that people (especially developers of accessible titles() have experience of both sides of the coin. It's because of this that you're now starting to see accessible titles with controller/mouse support, online play, unlockable content, and some of the other goodies that are pretty much standard stuff with mainstream titles. There's no getting away from the fact that some modern mainstream games are leaps and bounds ahead of what we've got in terms of complexity, but if you compare the budgets and man-hours spent on the creations of both industries that's hardly surprising. On the downside, we can't play some amazing mainstream titles, but on the upside that probably inspires developers of accessible titles to dig deep more than anything else. There's older and more seasoned gamers than me on this list as I'm only in my mid 20's, but from what I can tell, we seem to be moving forward at a faster rate than mainstream titles ever have. It was only a few years ago that every accessible game I encountered was too basic or too easy to hold my attention for long. Now I'm happy to say that I've bought copies of a few and spent way too much time enraged by them... in a good way of course. It's a bit of a ramble, but hope it helps in some way. Feel free to hit me back on or off list if there's anything I can expand upon or anything else I can do should In Touch want to run the feature. Cheers Scott On 2/27/09, Mani Djazmi i_am_a_s...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi, my name's Mani Djazmi and I'm a reporter on the In Touch programme at BBC Radio 4 in England. I'm currently researching a feature on the accessability of computer games for blind and partially sighted people. The impression I'm getting is that mainstream games generally aren't very accessible so bespoke ones are being produced. Is this fair? Do any of you guys play mainstream games and how do you find them? I look forward to hearing your thoughts and knowledge. Cheers Mani _ Check out the new and improved services from Windows Live. Learn more! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/132630768/direct/01/ --- Gamers
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
I play mainstream fighting games myself, and I agree with all the comments I've read on this list. I own an n64, super nintendo, ps1, 2 and ps3. the latest games I've acquired are Mortal Kombat VS. DC Universe and Street Fighter IV. I'd probably get more if I had some cash handy lol. It takes a lot of patience and practice to fully master a game as a blind person since everything you hear isn't always obvious. - Original Message - From: Constantine tcwoo...@shaw.ca To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 8:49 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi I'm a classic gamer myself. I think I'm one in 100 because there doesn't seem to be much interest here. Anyway, onto my report - I'll make this as detailed as I can, sorta. Well, to start off with, I own a sega genesis, soon to own a sega cd, 3do and dreamcast - I also own a n64, and gamecube. Sega Genesis: Well, this heres pretty obvious - the 16 bit lovable genesis released in 1989. Anyway, the best beat-em-up ever is Streets of rage. Its one of my all time favorite games - and while I can't beat it, I can get to level 4 pretty easy - I made it to level 5 once, but that was by luck. If I practiced enough, I could beat it - but I get enough enjoyment out of it that beating it doesn't matter to me. Mortal kombat 1, 2, and 3 - Well, fighting. Nothing talks, but I don't care. I'm slowly learning all the moves. I love mk 3, though, its got the coolest music, and my favorite MK character of all - nightwolf! Sega CD: This heres an add on to the genesis. Its got the same color pallit - but better sound, more storage space - which means more things talk and more accessibility is here... Mortal Kombat for this system wasn't widely recognized. Bad graphics. Jesus. Who cares about graphics! Its basically MK1 for the genesis revamped to have characters names spoken, and music from the arcade version. The most horrible thing here though is the load times. Nearly 30 seconds between each fight. If you do a fatality, you have to wait about a second before it actually does it. Keep in mind I'm only brushing the top. I could go into much more details over each game, each system, etc. I'm missing a system or two here - but you get the idea. Mostly fighting games - but then again, Rush 2: extreme racing for the n64 was and still is one of the coolest racing games of all time. contact details: email: tcwoo...@shaw.ca and others msn: the_conman...@hotmail.com skype: the_conman283 system details: Hp pavillion dv5220CA notebook pc AMD Turion(tm) 64 Mobile Technology ML-37 2.0 GHZ, 1024 mb DDR ram, Fujitsu 100 gb 4500 RPM Hard Drive, connecsant AC-link audio - Original Message - From: Mani Djazmi i_am_a_s...@hotmail.com To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:11 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi, my name's Mani Djazmi and I'm a reporter on the In Touch programme at BBC Radio 4 in England. I'm currently researching a feature on the accessability of computer games for blind and partially sighted people. The impression I'm getting is that mainstream games generally aren't very accessible so bespoke ones are being produced. Is this fair? Do any of you guys play mainstream games and how do you find them? I look forward to hearing your thoughts and knowledge. Cheers Mani _ Check out the new and improved services from Windows Live. Learn more! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/132630768/direct/01/ --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
My personal special move was the first time I pulled off Akuma's raging demon in street fighter alpha 3. light punch, light punch, forward, low kick, hard punch. For anyone wanting to visualize who's experienced sony controllers, the input was square, square, forward, x, r1. That took me forever to master. Two months, give or take. My first fatality was an achievement as well, as well as another street fighter favorite of mine, fei long, and to pull off one of his kicks it's a half circle forward, up and forward plus a kick. That one took a couple months too. lol. - Original Message - From: Constantine tcwoo...@shaw.ca To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 5:54 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi, I couldn't agree more here. I've said it again and again. USA games will be our next gen console. I think that Che was our PS2. Anyway, I agree with you there. A huge help, for some games at least, is gamefaqs.com. They have FAQS for almost all games - except, of course, some classics - which is my cup of tea. Oh, and there's a lot of memorization involved here, too. Memorizing menus, controler buttons, special moves - say left, high punch, low kick, etc. It can be quite frustrating. I'll never forget, though, when I did my first ever fatality and heard the doo doo doo! Music on mk3. I tried for days to master it. And when I did, it seemed that I could do any sort of special move on mortal kombat. contact details: email: tcwoo...@shaw.ca and others msn: the_conman...@hotmail.com skype: the_conman283 system details: Hp pavillion dv5220CA notebook pc AMD Turion(tm) 64 Mobile Technology ML-37 2.0 GHZ, 1024 mb DDR ram, Fujitsu 100 gb 4500 RPM Hard Drive, connecsant AC-link audio - Original Message - From: Scott Chesworth scottcheswo...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 11:40 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi Mani, I'm not sure if it can be summed up quite so simply. For me, there's a big difference between totally accessible and playable with gaming, just as there's a difference between totally accessible and usable with other flavours of software. Mainstream games usually require a bit of extra work in that it's exceedingly rare to find a talking menue system, things like high scores usually aren't accessible to us, and there are a couple of genres that if I were generalising I'd classify as unplayable. All that said, there are a fair few VI gamers who don't mind that extra work and enjoy sharing their findings, so word tends to spread if a game is playable. Recently, I've realised that I have a completely different approach to gaming that depends on whether I'm playing a mainstream or an accessible title. When I'm playing mainstream titles it tends to all be quite lighthearted. The geek in me often can't resist digging that little bit deeper into special moves etc than perhaps I'd need too to finish a game, but that's a character trait. When I'm playing accessible games on the other hand, I find myself taking it a lot more seriously. I suppose this is because after years of playing mainstream titles that were playable for the fun of it, with a specialised title geared toward a VI player I've finally got control over every single option and I know that if there's any part of that game I can't master, it's not because I'm at any sort of disadvantage, it's simply down to the fact that someone has written a game that I can't beat yet. I think it's crucial that people (especially developers of accessible titles() have experience of both sides of the coin. It's because of this that you're now starting to see accessible titles with controller/mouse support, online play, unlockable content, and some of the other goodies that are pretty much standard stuff with mainstream titles. There's no getting away from the fact that some modern mainstream games are leaps and bounds ahead of what we've got in terms of complexity, but if you compare the budgets and man-hours spent on the creations of both industries that's hardly surprising. On the downside, we can't play some amazing mainstream titles, but on the upside that probably inspires developers of accessible titles to dig deep more than anything else. There's older and more seasoned gamers than me on this list as I'm only in my mid 20's, but from what I can tell, we seem to be moving forward at a faster rate than mainstream titles ever have. It was only a few years ago that every accessible game I encountered was too basic or too easy to hold my attention for long. Now I'm happy to say that I've bought copies of a few and spent way too much time enraged by them... in a good way of course. It's a bit of a ramble, but hope it helps in some way. Feel free to hit me back on or off list if there's anything I can expand upon or anything else I can do should In Touch want
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Did you finally get the game? lol. - Original Message - From: Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 6:15 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games I play mainstream fighting games myself, and I agree with all the comments I've read on this list. I own an n64, super nintendo, ps1, 2 and ps3. the latest games I've acquired are Mortal Kombat VS. DC Universe and Street Fighter IV. I'd probably get more if I had some cash handy lol. It takes a lot of patience and practice to fully master a game as a blind person since everything you hear isn't always obvious. - Original Message - From: Constantine tcwoo...@shaw.ca To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 8:49 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi I'm a classic gamer myself. I think I'm one in 100 because there doesn't seem to be much interest here. Anyway, onto my report - I'll make this as detailed as I can, sorta. Well, to start off with, I own a sega genesis, soon to own a sega cd, 3do and dreamcast - I also own a n64, and gamecube. Sega Genesis: Well, this heres pretty obvious - the 16 bit lovable genesis released in 1989. Anyway, the best beat-em-up ever is Streets of rage. Its one of my all time favorite games - and while I can't beat it, I can get to level 4 pretty easy - I made it to level 5 once, but that was by luck. If I practiced enough, I could beat it - but I get enough enjoyment out of it that beating it doesn't matter to me. Mortal kombat 1, 2, and 3 - Well, fighting. Nothing talks, but I don't care. I'm slowly learning all the moves. I love mk 3, though, its got the coolest music, and my favorite MK character of all - nightwolf! Sega CD: This heres an add on to the genesis. Its got the same color pallit - but better sound, more storage space - which means more things talk and more accessibility is here... Mortal Kombat for this system wasn't widely recognized. Bad graphics. Jesus. Who cares about graphics! Its basically MK1 for the genesis revamped to have characters names spoken, and music from the arcade version. The most horrible thing here though is the load times. Nearly 30 seconds between each fight. If you do a fatality, you have to wait about a second before it actually does it. Keep in mind I'm only brushing the top. I could go into much more details over each game, each system, etc. I'm missing a system or two here - but you get the idea. Mostly fighting games - but then again, Rush 2: extreme racing for the n64 was and still is one of the coolest racing games of all time. contact details: email: tcwoo...@shaw.ca and others msn: the_conman...@hotmail.com skype: the_conman283 system details: Hp pavillion dv5220CA notebook pc AMD Turion(tm) 64 Mobile Technology ML-37 2.0 GHZ, 1024 mb DDR ram, Fujitsu 100 gb 4500 RPM Hard Drive, connecsant AC-link audio - Original Message - From: Mani Djazmi i_am_a_s...@hotmail.com To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:11 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi, my name's Mani Djazmi and I'm a reporter on the In Touch programme at BBC Radio 4 in England. I'm currently researching a feature on the accessability of computer games for blind and partially sighted people. The impression I'm getting is that mainstream games generally aren't very accessible so bespoke ones are being produced. Is this fair? Do any of you guys play mainstream games and how do you find them? I look forward to hearing your thoughts and knowledge. Cheers Mani _ Check out the new and improved services from Windows Live. Learn more! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/132630768/direct/01/ --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hello Mani. I've been an intermittant listener of In Touch for years. A very well-done show indeed. Your arrival on this list is most timely. Tom Ward has just galvanised things with the release of his first public beta level of Mysteries of the Ancients. That's woken the list up for certain. Che Martin is another developer you'll definitely want to chat with. Quite a few of the people currently developing accessible games either had sight or have it. All of our developers have their own interesting stories. As the creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine, I got to know several of them over the years. People get into this for the passion and interest in what they do. We've certainly come a long way together since I published the first issue in 96. Ron Schamerhorn's the current editor and has a somewhat better grasp on the state of things these days. Life has pulled me in some different directions but I still keep an ear on things and try to help where I can. I'd be happy to answer any questions you might have about past developments. You'll find quite a range of oppinion here concerning what constitutes an accessible game. I'm happy to see that you've already gotten a few responses. There are plenty more to be had as the debate is one of long standing in this community. There is a stronger sense among sighted game developers these days regarding the use of sound as more than window dressing. That's going to eventually pay off for us but I don't believe we're anywhere near that point yet. Personally, I'm from the old school which says that a game can only be counted as accessible if blind people can truly play it as it was intended to be played and have access to all information. They shouldn't be handycapped in any way in terms of how far they can get with a game due to being blind. Sight brings an incredible amount of information very rapidly to a person. To be accessible, a great deal of thought must go into the sound of a game as well as the interface. That means I don't view arcade games designed for sighted people as technically accessible. We're just not privy to all the information. Playing something via shere memorisation and luck just doesn't count for me. Other people have fun doing that sort of thing. There was a fellow who is now world famous due to his skill in playing Mortal Combat.As a child, I used to be more in the if I can have fun with it, then it's accessible camp. My father would take me to arcades and we'd try to play the videogames together. He'd desperately try to describe things as fast as possible and I'd be in charge of the controls. It was certainly fun at the time and there was a good degree of cameradery. However, when you take all the bells and whistles away, I was just following my father's instructions as quickly as possible. I eventually tried a game on my own and found out just how much of the experience I was missing as I got obliterated due to having no idea of the game situation. When you reduce a game to purely responding to sound cues and memorization, it stops being at all the same kind of fun that sighted people enjoy. There are a number of tragic cases of games which are almost accessible and could easily have been made so to the benefit of all players whether sighted or blind. The most disappointing one during my editorship of Audyssey was the North American version of Who Wants to Be a Millionaire. The questions were printed onto the screen rather than read out loud as they are in the show and apparently in the UK version of the computer game. A very disappointingly inaccessible Christmas present for our family. Other games like the You Don't Know Jack series are again very close to being accessible. In fact, for the earlier games in that series, nearly all of the game was. There were some visual questions making reference to pictures though. Also, there were the jack attacks which flashed up printed clues and information which had to be matched. With some elements like that, it simply can become impossible to accomodate. You could have a trivia game with questions all read aloud and no visual questions but it wouldn't be You Don't Know Jack. The same goes for such elements in many video games. We're simply too small a market to be worth a company's while. That's the major problem. Michael Feir Author of Personal Power: How Accessible Computers Can Enhance Personal Life For Blind People 2006-2008 www.blind-planet.com/content/personal-power A Life of Word and Sound 2003-2007 http://www.blind-planet.com/content/life-word-and-sound Creator and former editor of Audyssey Magazine 1996-2004 Check out my blog at: www.michaelfeir.blogspot.com - Original Message - From: Mani Djazmi i_am_a_s...@hotmail.com To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 11:11 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi, my name's Mani Djazmi and I'm a reporter on the In Touch
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi I recall totally by accident making the first fatality with mk against my sighted nephew he and I both thought it was great but took a few more games to redo the sequence with Scorpion. Also did Rayden and sub zero. That's why I'd like to find a good working copy of the games again. Ron - Original Message - From: Constantine tcwoo...@shaw.ca To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 8:54 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi, I couldn't agree more here. I've said it again and again. USA games will be our next gen console. I think that Che was our PS2. Anyway, I agree with you there. A huge help, for some games at least, is gamefaqs.com. They have FAQS for almost all games - except, of course, some classics - which is my cup of tea. Oh, and there's a lot of memorization involved here, too. Memorizing menus, controler buttons, special moves - say left, high punch, low kick, etc. It can be quite frustrating. I'll never forget, though, when I did my first ever fatality and heard the doo doo doo! Music on mk3. I tried for days to master it. And when I did, it seemed that I could do any sort of special move on mortal kombat. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
well I suppose if you play console games hard core you should be able to figure these out. But myself a blind friendly game is the only accessible game really. Ofcause if comercial games can be modded to be accessible to a sertain extent then I am all for that to. Like audio quake. it cost me 25 bucks to get the actual quake, but the mod was free enough. One thing though. Usagames will be the next big step. We have not seen a new engine since adventure by enspiredcode and agm which were not that spectactular and then there was gma before that that was quite good and still is. But its getting a bit out dated now. I am pleased we are getting another thing going. and ofcause streamway whenever it goes out will make things quite a bit more better if the reviews I hear from devs are true. We have to many arcade games, and to many card games right now. Ofcause anything else takes longer to code. I also noticed tha frenzied development of games has dropped after the initial serge. Although we are now getting better games. as well as the experimental games which can be interesting. At 03:15 p.m. 28/02/2009, you wrote: I play mainstream fighting games myself, and I agree with all the comments I've read on this list. I own an n64, super nintendo, ps1, 2 and ps3. the latest games I've acquired are Mortal Kombat VS. DC Universe and Street Fighter IV. I'd probably get more if I had some cash handy lol. It takes a lot of patience and practice to fully master a game as a blind person since everything you hear isn't always obvious. - Original Message - From: Constantine tcwoo...@shaw.ca To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 8:49 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi I'm a classic gamer myself. I think I'm one in 100 because there doesn't seem to be much interest here. Anyway, onto my report - I'll make this as detailed as I can, sorta. Well, to start off with, I own a sega genesis, soon to own a sega cd, 3do and dreamcast - I also own a n64, and gamecube. Sega Genesis: Well, this heres pretty obvious - the 16 bit lovable genesis released in 1989. Anyway, the best beat-em-up ever is Streets of rage. Its one of my all time favorite games - and while I can't beat it, I can get to level 4 pretty easy - I made it to level 5 once, but that was by luck. If I practiced enough, I could beat it - but I get enough enjoyment out of it that beating it doesn't matter to me. Mortal kombat 1, 2, and 3 - Well, fighting. Nothing talks, but I don't care. I'm slowly learning all the moves. I love mk 3, though, its got the coolest music, and my favorite MK character of all - nightwolf! Sega CD: This heres an add on to the genesis. Its got the same color pallit - but better sound, more storage space - which means more things talk and more accessibility is here... Mortal Kombat for this system wasn't widely recognized. Bad graphics. Jesus. Who cares about graphics! Its basically MK1 for the genesis revamped to have characters names spoken, and music from the arcade version. The most horrible thing here though is the load times. Nearly 30 seconds between each fight. If you do a fatality, you have to wait about a second before it actually does it. Keep in mind I'm only brushing the top. I could go into much more details over each game, each system, etc. I'm missing a system or two here - but you get the idea. Mostly fighting games - but then again, Rush 2: extreme racing for the n64 was and still is one of the coolest racing games of all time. contact details: email: tcwoo...@shaw.ca and others msn: the_conman...@hotmail.com skype: the_conman283 system details: Hp pavillion dv5220CA notebook pc AMD Turion(tm) 64 Mobile Technology ML-37 2.0 GHZ, 1024 mb DDR ram, Fujitsu 100 gb 4500 RPM Hard Drive, connecsant AC-link audio - Original Message - From: Mani Djazmi i_am_a_s...@hotmail.com To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 10:11 AM Subject: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games Hi, my name's Mani Djazmi and I'm a reporter on the In Touch programme at BBC Radio 4 in England. I'm currently researching a feature on the accessability of computer games for blind and partially sighted people. The impression I'm getting is that mainstream games generally aren't very accessible so bespoke ones are being produced. Is this fair? Do any of you guys play mainstream games and how do you find them? I look forward to hearing your thoughts and knowledge. Cheers Mani _ Check out the new and improved services from Windows Live. Learn more! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/132630768/direct/01/ --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games
Hi Pranav As long as it's a game it's quite welcome to talk about here. I'd like to know more about the ones you mentioned. Ron - Original Message - From: Pranav Lal pranav@gmail.com To: 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, February 27, 2009 9:56 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games High, When talking about games, do we also include game books such as www.projectaon.org and www.ffproject.com? If yes, then those are of course completely accessible. In some cases, static content such as maps needs to be rendered in an accessible form. Pranav --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC
Well their's Mortal Combat... i'm not sure where you can get it from. - Original Message - From: Kelly Sapergia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 1:16 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC Hi, Does anyone know of good mainstream games for the PC that can be played without sighted assistance? I know there are lots of text adventure games out there, but what about other types? Thanks. Yours Sincerely, Kelly John Sapergia For a mix of New Age, Ambient, Easy Listening, Smooth Jazz and Global Fusion music, listen to Northern Lights, Thursdays from 01:00 to 03:00 GMT (Wednesdays in North America) on ACB (American Council of the Blind) Radio Interactive at http://interactive.acbradio.org Visit the show's website at http://nl.ksapergia.net For high-quality audio productions at affordable prices, visit KJS Productions at: http://www.kjsproductions.com You can also visit my personal website at: http://www.ksapergia.net ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web. ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web.
[Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC
Hi, Does anyone know of good mainstream games for the PC that can be played without sighted assistance? I know there are lots of text adventure games out there, but what about other types? Thanks. Yours Sincerely, Kelly John Sapergia For a mix of New Age, Ambient, Easy Listening, Smooth Jazz and Global Fusion music, listen to Northern Lights, Thursdays from 01:00 to 03:00 GMT (Wednesdays in North America) on ACB (American Council of the Blind) Radio Interactive at http://interactive.acbradio.org Visit the show's website at http://nl.ksapergia.net For high-quality audio productions at affordable prices, visit KJS Productions at: http://www.kjsproductions.com You can also visit my personal website at: http://www.ksapergia.net ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC
If you're looking for Trivia, try the You Don't Know Jack series. Great games. If you're looking for... ya know... something else, try Silent Steel. Sort of an Interactive Movie deal, and it's compatible with Jaws. Awesome, ain't it? Haha. - Original Message - From: Kelly Sapergia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 4:16 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC Hi, Does anyone know of good mainstream games for the PC that can be played without sighted assistance? I know there are lots of text adventure games out there, but what about other types? Thanks. Yours Sincerely, Kelly John Sapergia For a mix of New Age, Ambient, Easy Listening, Smooth Jazz and Global Fusion music, listen to Northern Lights, Thursdays from 01:00 to 03:00 GMT (Wednesdays in North America) on ACB (American Council of the Blind) Radio Interactive at http://interactive.acbradio.org Visit the show's website at http://nl.ksapergia.net For high-quality audio productions at affordable prices, visit KJS Productions at: http://www.kjsproductions.com You can also visit my personal website at: http://www.ksapergia.net ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web. ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC
I haven't played Silent Steel in ages. Never beaten it, either... it's an awesome game. James At 04:26 PM 8/3/2006, you wrote: If you're looking for Trivia, try the You Don't Know Jack series. Great games. If you're looking for... ya know... something else, try Silent Steel. Sort of an Interactive Movie deal, and it's compatible with Jaws. Awesome, ain't it? Haha. - Original Message - From: Kelly Sapergia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 4:16 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC Hi, Does anyone know of good mainstream games for the PC that can be played without sighted assistance? I know there are lots of text adventure games out there, but what about other types? Thanks. Yours Sincerely, Kelly John Sapergia For a mix of New Age, Ambient, Easy Listening, Smooth Jazz and Global Fusion music, listen to Northern Lights, Thursdays from 01:00 to 03:00 GMT (Wednesdays in North America) on ACB (American Council of the Blind) Radio Interactive at http://interactive.acbradio.org Visit the show's website at http://nl.ksapergia.net For high-quality audio productions at affordable prices, visit KJS Productions at: http://www.kjsproductions.com You can also visit my personal website at: http://www.ksapergia.net ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web. ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web. ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC
I was just going to suggest You Don't Know Jack. Granted they're not completely accessible (some of the different types of questions do require some measure of sighted assistance), but the amount of material that is accessible due to the amount of dialogue in the game is quite impressive. Beyyond that I wouldn't know of any other games that could be played without assistance. Even though a lot (I'd even say most) of today's games are in stereo that doesn't include the menus and things, otherwise I'd have suggested some of the Star Wars games. I myself have Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace and still play it sometimes even today. It ain't pretty when the pretty leaves you with no place to go. From: Brandon Cole [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 16:26:57 -0400 If you're looking for Trivia, try the You Don't Know Jack series. Great games. If you're looking for... ya know... something else, try Silent Steel. Sort of an Interactive Movie deal, and it's compatible with Jaws. Awesome, ain't it? Haha. - Original Message - From: Kelly Sapergia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 4:16 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC Hi, Does anyone know of good mainstream games for the PC that can be played without sighted assistance? I know there are lots of text adventure games out there, but what about other types? Thanks. Yours Sincerely, Kelly John Sapergia For a mix of New Age, Ambient, Easy Listening, Smooth Jazz and Global Fusion music, listen to Northern Lights, Thursdays from 01:00 to 03:00 GMT (Wednesdays in North America) on ACB (American Council of the Blind) Radio Interactive at http://interactive.acbradio.org Visit the show's website at http://nl.ksapergia.net For high-quality audio productions at affordable prices, visit KJS Productions at: http://www.kjsproductions.com You can also visit my personal website at: http://www.ksapergia.net ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web. ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web. _ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC
where can you find silent steel? - Original Message - From: James Homuth [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC I haven't played Silent Steel in ages. Never beaten it, either... it's an awesome game. James At 04:26 PM 8/3/2006, you wrote: If you're looking for Trivia, try the You Don't Know Jack series. Great games. If you're looking for... ya know... something else, try Silent Steel. Sort of an Interactive Movie deal, and it's compatible with Jaws. Awesome, ain't it? Haha. - Original Message - From: Kelly Sapergia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 4:16 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC Hi, Does anyone know of good mainstream games for the PC that can be played without sighted assistance? I know there are lots of text adventure games out there, but what about other types? Thanks. Yours Sincerely, Kelly John Sapergia For a mix of New Age, Ambient, Easy Listening, Smooth Jazz and Global Fusion music, listen to Northern Lights, Thursdays from 01:00 to 03:00 GMT (Wednesdays in North America) on ACB (American Council of the Blind) Radio Interactive at http://interactive.acbradio.org Visit the show's website at http://nl.ksapergia.net For high-quality audio productions at affordable prices, visit KJS Productions at: http://www.kjsproductions.com You can also visit my personal website at: http://www.ksapergia.net ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web. ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web. ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/407 - Release Date: 8/3/2006 ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC
These days? Ebay, friend. Ebay. - Original Message - From: Eugene Baroni [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 6:11 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC where can you find silent steel? - Original Message - From: James Homuth [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 4:33 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC I haven't played Silent Steel in ages. Never beaten it, either... it's an awesome game. James At 04:26 PM 8/3/2006, you wrote: If you're looking for Trivia, try the You Don't Know Jack series. Great games. If you're looking for... ya know... something else, try Silent Steel. Sort of an Interactive Movie deal, and it's compatible with Jaws. Awesome, ain't it? Haha. - Original Message - From: Kelly Sapergia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 4:16 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC Hi, Does anyone know of good mainstream games for the PC that can be played without sighted assistance? I know there are lots of text adventure games out there, but what about other types? Thanks. Yours Sincerely, Kelly John Sapergia For a mix of New Age, Ambient, Easy Listening, Smooth Jazz and Global Fusion music, listen to Northern Lights, Thursdays from 01:00 to 03:00 GMT (Wednesdays in North America) on ACB (American Council of the Blind) Radio Interactive at http://interactive.acbradio.org Visit the show's website at http://nl.ksapergia.net For high-quality audio productions at affordable prices, visit KJS Productions at: http://www.kjsproductions.com You can also visit my personal website at: http://www.ksapergia.net ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web. ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web. ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/407 - Release Date: 8/3/2006 ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web. ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC
There is actually an Austin Powers trivia game, made by the same company, which is 100 percent accessible. There are different question types but everything is spoken. - Original Message - From: Bryan Peterson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 5:36 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC I was just going to suggest You Don't Know Jack. Granted they're not completely accessible (some of the different types of questions do require some measure of sighted assistance), but the amount of material that is accessible due to the amount of dialogue in the game is quite impressive. Beyyond that I wouldn't know of any other games that could be played without assistance. Even though a lot (I'd even say most) of today's games are in stereo that doesn't include the menus and things, otherwise I'd have suggested some of the Star Wars games. I myself have Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace and still play it sometimes even today. It ain't pretty when the pretty leaves you with no place to go. From: Brandon Cole [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 16:26:57 -0400 If you're looking for Trivia, try the You Don't Know Jack series. Great games. If you're looking for... ya know... something else, try Silent Steel. Sort of an Interactive Movie deal, and it's compatible with Jaws. Awesome, ain't it? Haha. - Original Message - From: Kelly Sapergia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 4:16 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC Hi, Does anyone know of good mainstream games for the PC that can be played without sighted assistance? I know there are lots of text adventure games out there, but what about other types? Thanks. Yours Sincerely, Kelly John Sapergia For a mix of New Age, Ambient, Easy Listening, Smooth Jazz and Global Fusion music, listen to Northern Lights, Thursdays from 01:00 to 03:00 GMT (Wednesdays in North America) on ACB (American Council of the Blind) Radio Interactive at http://interactive.acbradio.org Visit the show's website at http://nl.ksapergia.net For high-quality audio productions at affordable prices, visit KJS Productions at: http://www.kjsproductions.com You can also visit my personal website at: http://www.ksapergia.net ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web. ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web. _ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web. ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC
silent steel is a good one. Its not sold though. You will need to get it from ebay. There is stuff selling for around a dollar all the time. Myself I went to trademe, a local site here and got it for 20 dollars. i havn't found many. your best bet if not able to get it yourself is to try to get a coppy off someone else. At 08:16 AM 8/4/2006, you wrote: Hi, Does anyone know of good mainstream games for the PC that can be played without sighted assistance? I know there are lots of text adventure games out there, but what about other types? Thanks. Yours Sincerely, Kelly John Sapergia For a mix of New Age, Ambient, Easy Listening, Smooth Jazz and Global Fusion music, listen to Northern Lights, Thursdays from 01:00 to 03:00 GMT (Wednesdays in North America) on ACB (American Council of the Blind) Radio Interactive at http://interactive.acbradio.org Visit the show's website at http://nl.ksapergia.net For high-quality audio productions at affordable prices, visit KJS Productions at: http://www.kjsproductions.com You can also visit my personal website at: http://www.ksapergia.net ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/406 - Release Date: 8/2/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/406 - Release Date: 8/2/2006 ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web.
Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC
Hi Brandon. I never heard of this sword of steel game. Where can I find it? - Original Message - From: Brandon Cole [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 4:26 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC If you're looking for Trivia, try the You Don't Know Jack series. Great games. If you're looking for... ya know... something else, try Silent Steel. Sort of an Interactive Movie deal, and it's compatible with Jaws. Awesome, ain't it? Haha. - Original Message - From: Kelly Sapergia [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 4:16 PM Subject: [Audyssey] Accessible Mainstream Games for The PC Hi, Does anyone know of good mainstream games for the PC that can be played without sighted assistance? I know there are lots of text adventure games out there, but what about other types? Thanks. Yours Sincerely, Kelly John Sapergia For a mix of New Age, Ambient, Easy Listening, Smooth Jazz and Global Fusion music, listen to Northern Lights, Thursdays from 01:00 to 03:00 GMT (Wednesdays in North America) on ACB (American Council of the Blind) Radio Interactive at http://interactive.acbradio.org Visit the show's website at http://nl.ksapergia.net For high-quality audio productions at affordable prices, visit KJS Productions at: http://www.kjsproductions.com You can also visit my personal website at: http://www.ksapergia.net ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web. ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/406 - Release Date: 8/2/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.5/406 - Release Date: 8/2/2006 ___ Gamers mailing list .. Gamers@audyssey.org To unsubscribe send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can visit http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org to make any subscription changes via the web.
