Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hi my version of Jaws 11 won't work with Sappi at all, I've tried but sadly nothing, even when I sellect sappi 5 as my default. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 2:22 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi, Well, that depends. I noticed that the Sapi version of Realspeak voices do lag a little, but it is n't too bad. However, the Realspeak Direct voices for Jaws 11 are very responsive and I generally use something like Scansoft Tom as my default voice rather than Eloquence. On 1/20/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Damien. I'd fully agree that the orphius synthetic dave and synthetic andy voices are, well synthetic, and probably are worse than eloquence. however, I really do like their human voices, the Uk English voice Alan in particular. In fact Alan is the voice I've used for everything screen reader related for years now, ever sinse the human voices first came out, and I've never had issues with response times at all. i suppose though as you said, it all comes down to what your used to, I'd probably say the same about eloquence, ie, that it's not much better than espeak as you do about orphius ;D. As for the lag in sapi, as I said I've never really seen it myself, not with the scansoft voices anyway. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hmmm, I've always been a litle confused as to why you'd want to run a screen reader like Jaws or hal thru sapi anyway, unless you have some very unusual voices which your screen reader didn't support at all, though that would stil be something of a resource drain I think than just having the screen reader output to the voice directly. That is however something entirely different from a game outputting to a screen reader. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Lori Duncan lori_dunca...@hotmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi my version of Jaws 11 won't work with Sappi at all, I've tried but sadly nothing, even when I sellect sappi 5 as my default. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 2:22 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi, Well, that depends. I noticed that the Sapi version of Realspeak voices do lag a little, but it is n't too bad. However, the Realspeak Direct voices for Jaws 11 are very responsive and I generally use something like Scansoft Tom as my default voice rather than Eloquence. On 1/20/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Damien. I'd fully agree that the orphius synthetic dave and synthetic andy voices are, well synthetic, and probably are worse than eloquence. however, I really do like their human voices, the Uk English voice Alan in particular. In fact Alan is the voice I've used for everything screen reader related for years now, ever sinse the human voices first came out, and I've never had issues with response times at all. i suppose though as you said, it all comes down to what your used to, I'd probably say the same about eloquence, ie, that it's not much better than espeak as you do about orphius ;D. As for the lag in sapi, as I said I've never really seen it myself, not with the scansoft voices anyway. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hi Lori, I know. Jaws 11 has problems with its Sapi 5 drivers. That's why I use the Realspeak Direct voices instead. Those were built specifically for Jaws and are in my opinion just as fast/responsive as Eloquence most of the time. On 1/21/11, Lori Duncan lori_dunca...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi my version of Jaws 11 won't work with Sappi at all, I've tried but sadly nothing, even when I sellect sappi 5 as my default. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hi Dark, Sorry, you lost me there. Why wouldn't a screen reader use Sapi 5 voices rather than trying to support each and every voice out their directly? I mean the entire purpose of Microsoft providing the Sapi 5 com library is so that developers would have a single API to access various speech systems like Microsoft Sapi, ATT, Cepstral, Careproc, etc all from one interface. Otherwise you are talking about having to write a custom wrapper or middleware for each and every single speech engine out there on the market when you don't have too. So your comments royally confuses me. On 1/21/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hmmm, I've always been a litle confused as to why you'd want to run a screen reader like Jaws or hal thru sapi anyway, unless you have some very unusual voices which your screen reader didn't support at all, though that would stil be something of a resource drain I think than just having the screen reader output to the voice directly. That is however something entirely different from a game outputting to a screen reader. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
If you add Jaws support, please also add support for Window-Eyes, System Access, and NVDA as not everyone uses or even owns Jaws. What I'd recommend is have it autodetect the screen reader currently running, and interface with it. Karl -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Philip Bennefall Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 11:52 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi all, I have been opposed to adding screen reader support into BGT since the very beginning, though I am beginning to change my mind. The primary reason for my not wanting to do it has been the fact that Jaws steals a large number of keys from DirectInput, making it very hard to play games if Jaws is loaded and not in sleep mode. However, I have just managed to solve this problem. Jaws uses what is known as a low level, system wide keyboard hook which basically monitors the state of the keyboard device and decides whether input should be allowed through so that other applications can see it. Jaws, as we all know, decides that a lot of keys should not be let through such as the arrows, escape and a whole bunch of others. So what I have done is to set up a low level keyboard hook of my own, though a process specific hook rather than a global one. Why? Because process specific hooks always take priority over global ones, which means that I can simply tell my keyboard hook to allow everything through... And there you have it. Jaws and DirectInput are now the best of friends. I am going to enable this as an option in BGT, because even though I tell everything to go straight through it does block certain Jaws specific keystrokes from being processed while you are in the window, almost as though Jaws had been in sleep mode though it technically is not. In other words, this will enable me to add support for Jaws speech output while preventing Jaws from messing about with the keyboard input. Just some information I figured I would share with you. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hi Karl, I have plans to add support for the other screen readers as well, though Jaws is my primary target as it is still the most widely used screen reader out there. Rather than selecting a screen reader automatically, however, I'd rather let the user see a list of the available ones and allow them to select one based on that. Who knows, in some obscure case a user might have both NVDA and Jaws for instance. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Karl Belanger karl.belan...@comcast.net To: phi...@blastbay.com; 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 5:58 PM Subject: RE: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT If you add Jaws support, please also add support for Window-Eyes, System Access, and NVDA as not everyone uses or even owns Jaws. What I'd recommend is have it autodetect the screen reader currently running, and interface with it. Karl -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Philip Bennefall Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 11:52 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi all, I have been opposed to adding screen reader support into BGT since the very beginning, though I am beginning to change my mind. The primary reason for my not wanting to do it has been the fact that Jaws steals a large number of keys from DirectInput, making it very hard to play games if Jaws is loaded and not in sleep mode. However, I have just managed to solve this problem. Jaws uses what is known as a low level, system wide keyboard hook which basically monitors the state of the keyboard device and decides whether input should be allowed through so that other applications can see it. Jaws, as we all know, decides that a lot of keys should not be let through such as the arrows, escape and a whole bunch of others. So what I have done is to set up a low level keyboard hook of my own, though a process specific hook rather than a global one. Why? Because process specific hooks always take priority over global ones, which means that I can simply tell my keyboard hook to allow everything through... And there you have it. Jaws and DirectInput are now the best of friends. I am going to enable this as an option in BGT, because even though I tell everything to go straight through it does block certain Jaws specific keystrokes from being processed while you are in the window, almost as though Jaws had been in sleep mode though it technically is not. In other words, this will enable me to add support for Jaws speech output while preventing Jaws from messing about with the keyboard input. Just some information I figured I would share with you. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
what about nvda with the nvda controler client dll. THats not gona be that hard to do, nvda doesn't block keys. At 05:51 a.m. 21/01/2011, you wrote: Hi all, I have been opposed to adding screen reader support into BGT since the very beginning, though I am beginning to change my mind. The primary reason for my not wanting to do it has been the fact that Jaws steals a large number of keys from DirectInput, making it very hard to play games if Jaws is loaded and not in sleep mode. However, I have just managed to solve this problem. Jaws uses what is known as a low level, system wide keyboard hook which basically monitors the state of the keyboard device and decides whether input should be allowed through so that other applications can see it. Jaws, as we all know, decides that a lot of keys should not be let through such as the arrows, escape and a whole bunch of others. So what I have done is to set up a low level keyboard hook of my own, though a process specific hook rather than a global one. Why? Because process specific hooks always take priority over global ones, which means that I can simply tell my keyboard hook to allow everything through... And there you have it. Jaws and DirectInput are now the best of friends. I am going to enable this as an option in BGT, because even though I tell everything to go straight through it does block certain Jaws specific keystrokes from being processed while you are in the window, almost as though Jaws had been in sleep mode though it technically is not. In other words, this will enable me to add support for Jaws speech output while preventing Jaws from messing about with the keyboard input. Just some information I figured I would share with you. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
well then there is new supernova, I know they use lua scripts but I don't know. At 05:58 a.m. 21/01/2011, you wrote: If you add Jaws support, please also add support for Window-Eyes, System Access, and NVDA as not everyone uses or even owns Jaws. What I'd recommend is have it autodetect the screen reader currently running, and interface with it. Karl -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Philip Bennefall Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 11:52 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi all, I have been opposed to adding screen reader support into BGT since the very beginning, though I am beginning to change my mind. The primary reason for my not wanting to do it has been the fact that Jaws steals a large number of keys from DirectInput, making it very hard to play games if Jaws is loaded and not in sleep mode. However, I have just managed to solve this problem. Jaws uses what is known as a low level, system wide keyboard hook which basically monitors the state of the keyboard device and decides whether input should be allowed through so that other applications can see it. Jaws, as we all know, decides that a lot of keys should not be let through such as the arrows, escape and a whole bunch of others. So what I have done is to set up a low level keyboard hook of my own, though a process specific hook rather than a global one. Why? Because process specific hooks always take priority over global ones, which means that I can simply tell my keyboard hook to allow everything through... And there you have it. Jaws and DirectInput are now the best of friends. I am going to enable this as an option in BGT, because even though I tell everything to go straight through it does block certain Jaws specific keystrokes from being processed while you are in the window, almost as though Jaws had been in sleep mode though it technically is not. In other words, this will enable me to add support for Jaws speech output while preventing Jaws from messing about with the keyboard input. Just some information I figured I would share with you. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hi Shaun, NVDA has never presented a problem. However, I wasn't going to spend time adding support for the other less major screen readers if I couldn't get support working for the most commonly used one. So the key has been to get Jaws and BGT running together, and now that I have accomplished that I can begin adding support for the others as well. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT what about nvda with the nvda controler client dll. THats not gona be that hard to do, nvda doesn't block keys. At 05:51 a.m. 21/01/2011, you wrote: Hi all, I have been opposed to adding screen reader support into BGT since the very beginning, though I am beginning to change my mind. The primary reason for my not wanting to do it has been the fact that Jaws steals a large number of keys from DirectInput, making it very hard to play games if Jaws is loaded and not in sleep mode. However, I have just managed to solve this problem. Jaws uses what is known as a low level, system wide keyboard hook which basically monitors the state of the keyboard device and decides whether input should be allowed through so that other applications can see it. Jaws, as we all know, decides that a lot of keys should not be let through such as the arrows, escape and a whole bunch of others. So what I have done is to set up a low level keyboard hook of my own, though a process specific hook rather than a global one. Why? Because process specific hooks always take priority over global ones, which means that I can simply tell my keyboard hook to allow everything through... And there you have it. Jaws and DirectInput are now the best of friends. I am going to enable this as an option in BGT, because even though I tell everything to go straight through it does block certain Jaws specific keystrokes from being processed while you are in the window, almost as though Jaws had been in sleep mode though it technically is not. In other words, this will enable me to add support for Jaws speech output while preventing Jaws from messing about with the keyboard input. Just some information I figured I would share with you. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Not to mention Sapi. there are those of us who use Hal, and thus don't have any of the above, in fact my personal feeling is why add support for several windows screen readers which some people may or may not have when you can do just as well with sapi which everyone has. Sorry, but it just seems silly to develope support for five different systems in an effort to please everyone when you could do it with just the one. The only issue there is with sapi sis that not everyone will have a decent voice, but this is a synth voice issue not a screen reader one, and with companies like seerprock, acapella neospeech etc producing good quality sapi compliant voices which no longer cost the earth to buy, it's a good investment for anyone who wants to play audio games. in fact, I regard buying a sapi voice as rather like buying a joystick where audio games are concerned. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Karl Belanger karl.belan...@comcast.net To: 'Philip Bennefall' phi...@blastbay.com; 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT If you add Jaws support, please also add support for Window-Eyes, System Access, and NVDA as not everyone uses or even owns Jaws. What I'd recommend is have it autodetect the screen reader currently running, and interface with it. Karl -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Philip Bennefall Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 11:52 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi all, I have been opposed to adding screen reader support into BGT since the very beginning, though I am beginning to change my mind. The primary reason for my not wanting to do it has been the fact that Jaws steals a large number of keys from DirectInput, making it very hard to play games if Jaws is loaded and not in sleep mode. However, I have just managed to solve this problem. Jaws uses what is known as a low level, system wide keyboard hook which basically monitors the state of the keyboard device and decides whether input should be allowed through so that other applications can see it. Jaws, as we all know, decides that a lot of keys should not be let through such as the arrows, escape and a whole bunch of others. So what I have done is to set up a low level keyboard hook of my own, though a process specific hook rather than a global one. Why? Because process specific hooks always take priority over global ones, which means that I can simply tell my keyboard hook to allow everything through... And there you have it. Jaws and DirectInput are now the best of friends. I am going to enable this as an option in BGT, because even though I tell everything to go straight through it does block certain Jaws specific keystrokes from being processed while you are in the window, almost as though Jaws had been in sleep mode though it technically is not. In other words, this will enable me to add support for Jaws speech output while preventing Jaws from messing about with the keyboard input. Just some information I figured I would share with you. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hal can be scripted with Lua, and I don't imagine adding support would be completely evil, it's just nobody has done it yet because most people who do use Hal can just use sapi anyway, -hence my previous point. In fact the only game that does have any sort of Hal support, lone wolf I have found to work far better with sapi anyway. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 5:13 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT well then there is new supernova, I know they use lua scripts but I don't know. At 05:58 a.m. 21/01/2011, you wrote: If you add Jaws support, please also add support for Window-Eyes, System Access, and NVDA as not everyone uses or even owns Jaws. What I'd recommend is have it autodetect the screen reader currently running, and interface with it. Karl -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Philip Bennefall Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 11:52 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi all, I have been opposed to adding screen reader support into BGT since the very beginning, though I am beginning to change my mind. The primary reason for my not wanting to do it has been the fact that Jaws steals a large number of keys from DirectInput, making it very hard to play games if Jaws is loaded and not in sleep mode. However, I have just managed to solve this problem. Jaws uses what is known as a low level, system wide keyboard hook which basically monitors the state of the keyboard device and decides whether input should be allowed through so that other applications can see it. Jaws, as we all know, decides that a lot of keys should not be let through such as the arrows, escape and a whole bunch of others. So what I have done is to set up a low level keyboard hook of my own, though a process specific hook rather than a global one. Why? Because process specific hooks always take priority over global ones, which means that I can simply tell my keyboard hook to allow everything through... And there you have it. Jaws and DirectInput are now the best of friends. I am going to enable this as an option in BGT, because even though I tell everything to go straight through it does block certain Jaws specific keystrokes from being processed while you are in the window, almost as though Jaws had been in sleep mode though it technically is not. In other words, this will enable me to add support for Jaws speech output while preventing Jaws from messing about with the keyboard input. Just some information I figured I would share with you. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hi Dark, Synth voices like Eloquence and Dectalk are hard to get for SAPI 5 though. I tend to find with SAPI that you go from one extreme to the other. Either a low-sampled, quick but hard to understand one, or a high-sampled, large, slow, laggy, easy to understand one. However they all seem to be sample-based rather than formant-based. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 5:23 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Not to mention Sapi. there are those of us who use Hal, and thus don't have any of the above, in fact my personal feeling is why add support for several windows screen readers which some people may or may not have when you can do just as well with sapi which everyone has. Sorry, but it just seems silly to develope support for five different systems in an effort to please everyone when you could do it with just the one. The only issue there is with sapi sis that not everyone will have a decent voice, but this is a synth voice issue not a screen reader one, and with companies like seerprock, acapella neospeech etc producing good quality sapi compliant voices which no longer cost the earth to buy, it's a good investment for anyone who wants to play audio games. in fact, I regard buying a sapi voice as rather like buying a joystick where audio games are concerned. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Karl Belanger karl.belan...@comcast.net To: 'Philip Bennefall' phi...@blastbay.com; 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT If you add Jaws support, please also add support for Window-Eyes, System Access, and NVDA as not everyone uses or even owns Jaws. What I'd recommend is have it autodetect the screen reader currently running, and interface with it. Karl -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Philip Bennefall Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 11:52 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi all, I have been opposed to adding screen reader support into BGT since the very beginning, though I am beginning to change my mind. The primary reason for my not wanting to do it has been the fact that Jaws steals a large number of keys from DirectInput, making it very hard to play games if Jaws is loaded and not in sleep mode. However, I have just managed to solve this problem. Jaws uses what is known as a low level, system wide keyboard hook which basically monitors the state of the keyboard device and decides whether input should be allowed through so that other applications can see it. Jaws, as we all know, decides that a lot of keys should not be let through such as the arrows, escape and a whole bunch of others. So what I have done is to set up a low level keyboard hook of my own, though a process specific hook rather than a global one. Why? Because process specific hooks always take priority over global ones, which means that I can simply tell my keyboard hook to allow everything through... And there you have it. Jaws and DirectInput are now the best of friends. I am going to enable this as an option in BGT, because even though I tell everything to go straight through it does block certain Jaws specific keystrokes from being processed while you are in the window, almost as though Jaws had been in sleep mode though it technically is not. In other words, this will enable me to add support for Jaws speech output while preventing Jaws from messing about with the keyboard input. Just some information I figured I would share with you. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hi Philip, Interesting. I'm glad to know you found a solution for this rather annoying problem with Jaws. Although, I personally am still against direct screen reader support. I think it is A, unnecessary, and B, a very bad idea for several reasons. People who are asking for it aren't necessarily programmers and don't really have a clue what they are asking for. It is like a little kid who wants to eat an entire bag of candy. He/she wants it not fully realising by eating that bag of candy it will make them sick and damage their teeth. Same deal with adding screen reader support. People want it not realising or particularly caring if doing so is in the best intrest of their game products or not. Cheers! On 1/20/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi all, I have been opposed to adding screen reader support into BGT since the very beginning, though I am beginning to change my mind. The primary reason for my not wanting to do it has been the fact that Jaws steals a large number of keys from DirectInput, making it very hard to play games if Jaws is loaded and not in sleep mode. However, I have just managed to solve this problem. Jaws uses what is known as a low level, system wide keyboard hook which basically monitors the state of the keyboard device and decides whether input should be allowed through so that other applications can see it. Jaws, as we all know, decides that a lot of keys should not be let through such as the arrows, escape and a whole bunch of others. So what I have done is to set up a low level keyboard hook of my own, though a process specific hook rather than a global one. Why? Because process specific hooks always take priority over global ones, which means that I can simply tell my keyboard hook to allow everything through... And there you have it. Jaws and DirectInput are now the best of friends. I am going to enable this as an option in BGT, because even though I tell everything to go straight through it does block certain Jaws specific keystrokes from being processed while you are in the window, almost as though Jaws had been in sleep mode though it technically is not. In other words, this will enable me to add support for Jaws speech output while preventing Jaws from messing about with the keyboard input. Just some information I figured I would share with you. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hi Dark, BGT already has Sapi support, so this is as you say not strictly necessary but a lot of people requested it, and it won't take me very long to integrate so I figured that I might as well get it over and done with. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Not to mention Sapi. there are those of us who use Hal, and thus don't have any of the above, in fact my personal feeling is why add support for several windows screen readers which some people may or may not have when you can do just as well with sapi which everyone has. Sorry, but it just seems silly to develope support for five different systems in an effort to please everyone when you could do it with just the one. The only issue there is with sapi sis that not everyone will have a decent voice, but this is a synth voice issue not a screen reader one, and with companies like seerprock, acapella neospeech etc producing good quality sapi compliant voices which no longer cost the earth to buy, it's a good investment for anyone who wants to play audio games. in fact, I regard buying a sapi voice as rather like buying a joystick where audio games are concerned. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Karl Belanger karl.belan...@comcast.net To: 'Philip Bennefall' phi...@blastbay.com; 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT If you add Jaws support, please also add support for Window-Eyes, System Access, and NVDA as not everyone uses or even owns Jaws. What I'd recommend is have it autodetect the screen reader currently running, and interface with it. Karl -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Philip Bennefall Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 11:52 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi all, I have been opposed to adding screen reader support into BGT since the very beginning, though I am beginning to change my mind. The primary reason for my not wanting to do it has been the fact that Jaws steals a large number of keys from DirectInput, making it very hard to play games if Jaws is loaded and not in sleep mode. However, I have just managed to solve this problem. Jaws uses what is known as a low level, system wide keyboard hook which basically monitors the state of the keyboard device and decides whether input should be allowed through so that other applications can see it. Jaws, as we all know, decides that a lot of keys should not be let through such as the arrows, escape and a whole bunch of others. So what I have done is to set up a low level keyboard hook of my own, though a process specific hook rather than a global one. Why? Because process specific hooks always take priority over global ones, which means that I can simply tell my keyboard hook to allow everything through... And there you have it. Jaws and DirectInput are now the best of friends. I am going to enable this as an option in BGT, because even though I tell everything to go straight through it does block certain Jaws specific keystrokes from being processed while you are in the window, almost as though Jaws had been in sleep mode though it technically is not. In other words, this will enable me to add support for Jaws speech output while preventing Jaws from messing about with the keyboard input. Just some information I figured I would share with you. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hi, Unfortunately this is true. Eloquence is actually Sapi 4 based not Sapi 5 based. The Dectalk has its own API. Although Fonix did produce a Sapi 5 compatible version of Fonixtalk, AKA Dectalk, for a while. However, it is my understanding they discontinued the Sapi 5 version of Fonixtalk. The best way to support Eloquence is to purchase an SDK for it and wrap Viavoice Outloud directly. It is pretty simple to do and the API for Eloquence AKA Viavoice Outloud is very straight forward for a C++ developer. Problem is that the SDK costs quite a bit to license. Cheers! On 1/20/11, Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net wrote: Hi Dark, Synth voices like Eloquence and Dectalk are hard to get for SAPI 5 though. I tend to find with SAPI that you go from one extreme to the other. Either a low-sampled, quick but hard to understand one, or a high-sampled, large, slow, laggy, easy to understand one. However they all seem to be sample-based rather than formant-based. Regards, Damien. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hi Shaun, And the point of NvDA support is? With NVDA you can choose from ESpeak, which is Sapi compatible anyway, and/or any Sapi 5 voices. So your logic is well I want to support this or that Sapi 5 voice but instead of using Sapi directly I'll load NVDA and access Sapi remotely rather than directly. That's dumb. You use more resources etc doing it that way for no reason. Cheers! On 1/20/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: what about nvda with the nvda controler client dll. THats not gona be that hard to do, nvda doesn't block keys. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hi Dark, I'm glad somebody actually agrees with me. Supporting x number of screen readers is, to be blunt, absolutely silly and unnecessary. However, I know the reason or the logic behind it. Some people love Eloquence and want Eloquence support AKA Jaws support. Personally, I don't find that a compelling reason to add screen reader support because I'm not an Eloquence fan, but you know how it goes. Different strokes for different folks and all that. Cheers! On 1/20/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Not to mention Sapi. there are those of us who use Hal, and thus don't have any of the above, in fact my personal feeling is why add support for several windows screen readers which some people may or may not have when you can do just as well with sapi which everyone has. Sorry, but it just seems silly to develope support for five different systems in an effort to please everyone when you could do it with just the one. The only issue there is with sapi sis that not everyone will have a decent voice, but this is a synth voice issue not a screen reader one, and with companies like seerprock, acapella neospeech etc producing good quality sapi compliant voices which no longer cost the earth to buy, it's a good investment for anyone who wants to play audio games. in fact, I regard buying a sapi voice as rather like buying a joystick where audio games are concerned. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hi Philip, Well, its not that obscure as you might think. I happen to have three screen readers. Jaws 11, Window-Eyes 7.2, and NVDA 2010. I find that each screen reader has its own unique advantages/disadvantages and switch them depending on the project and/or application. I know a couple of other people with a similar setup. For example, here in the USA on a job sight you are likely to end up with Jaws no questions asked just because it is Jaws. However, at home the person may have some other preference like Hal, Window-Eyes, NVDA, whatever. As a result it is becoming more common that there may be more than one screen reader on the system. Especially, with NVDA and System Access that don't cost a bloody fortune. With me I got Jaws through BSVI when I went to college since that is all they would buy, and I just purchased SMAs for it. However, years later I found I liked Window-Eyes better and licensed it. NVDA is free and that's how i got the three of them. Point being is it might not be that far a stretch to see more than one screen reader installed. Cheers! On 1/20/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi Karl, I have plans to add support for the other screen readers as well, though Jaws is my primary target as it is still the most widely used screen reader out there. Rather than selecting a screen reader automatically, however, I'd rather let the user see a list of the available ones and allow them to select one based on that. Who knows, in some obscure case a user might have both NVDA and Jaws for instance. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hi Thomas, Right, that strengthens my point about having screen reader enumeration in BGT if, of course, we want this support at all. I agree with you that it's not a critical or even important thing to have in a game engine, but I reason like this. Customers want it, customers pay the bills, customers get what they want. That's how I have to do my business, e.g. submit to popular demand even if I might not strictly agree with it on a personal level. Of course there are a lot of cases when I won't do it, but for something as simple as this I don't have a problem adding it. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: phi...@blastbay.com; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:03 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi Philip, Well, its not that obscure as you might think. I happen to have three screen readers. Jaws 11, Window-Eyes 7.2, and NVDA 2010. I find that each screen reader has its own unique advantages/disadvantages and switch them depending on the project and/or application. I know a couple of other people with a similar setup. For example, here in the USA on a job sight you are likely to end up with Jaws no questions asked just because it is Jaws. However, at home the person may have some other preference like Hal, Window-Eyes, NVDA, whatever. As a result it is becoming more common that there may be more than one screen reader on the system. Especially, with NVDA and System Access that don't cost a bloody fortune. With me I got Jaws through BSVI when I went to college since that is all they would buy, and I just purchased SMAs for it. However, years later I found I liked Window-Eyes better and licensed it. NVDA is free and that's how i got the three of them. Point being is it might not be that far a stretch to see more than one screen reader installed. Cheers! On 1/20/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi Karl, I have plans to add support for the other screen readers as well, though Jaws is my primary target as it is still the most widely used screen reader out there. Rather than selecting a screen reader automatically, however, I'd rather let the user see a list of the available ones and allow them to select one based on that. Who knows, in some obscure case a user might have both NVDA and Jaws for instance. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
I've never actually had lag or speed issues with scansoft daniel, even on my laptop which is five years old and has not the world's largest ram. I have noticed some lag when using realspeak with Hal even with hal's direct output (one reason I use orphius, sinse it is both extremely responsive and imho, sounds much nicer than eloquence), though also bare in mind my typing speed is pretty fast. But I haven't seen this issue in games running sapi, even timing based ones like lone wolf, or when writing in muds, pluss of course, if you have the libraries you can in fact run sapi with eloquence if you wish anyway. I wonder if there's something wonky in your setup which is giving low performance with sapi? Beware the grue! dark. - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 5:57 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi Dark, Synth voices like Eloquence and Dectalk are hard to get for SAPI 5 though. I tend to find with SAPI that you go from one extreme to the other. Either a low-sampled, quick but hard to understand one, or a high-sampled, large, slow, laggy, easy to understand one. However they all seem to be sample-based rather than formant-based. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 5:23 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Not to mention Sapi. there are those of us who use Hal, and thus don't have any of the above, in fact my personal feeling is why add support for several windows screen readers which some people may or may not have when you can do just as well with sapi which everyone has. Sorry, but it just seems silly to develope support for five different systems in an effort to please everyone when you could do it with just the one. The only issue there is with sapi sis that not everyone will have a decent voice, but this is a synth voice issue not a screen reader one, and with companies like seerprock, acapella neospeech etc producing good quality sapi compliant voices which no longer cost the earth to buy, it's a good investment for anyone who wants to play audio games. in fact, I regard buying a sapi voice as rather like buying a joystick where audio games are concerned. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Karl Belanger karl.belan...@comcast.net To: 'Philip Bennefall' phi...@blastbay.com; 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT If you add Jaws support, please also add support for Window-Eyes, System Access, and NVDA as not everyone uses or even owns Jaws. What I'd recommend is have it autodetect the screen reader currently running, and interface with it. Karl -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Philip Bennefall Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 11:52 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi all, I have been opposed to adding screen reader support into BGT since the very beginning, though I am beginning to change my mind. The primary reason for my not wanting to do it has been the fact that Jaws steals a large number of keys from DirectInput, making it very hard to play games if Jaws is loaded and not in sleep mode. However, I have just managed to solve this problem. Jaws uses what is known as a low level, system wide keyboard hook which basically monitors the state of the keyboard device and decides whether input should be allowed through so that other applications can see it. Jaws, as we all know, decides that a lot of keys should not be let through such as the arrows, escape and a whole bunch of others. So what I have done is to set up a low level keyboard hook of my own, though a process specific hook rather than a global one. Why? Because process specific hooks always take priority over global ones, which means that I can simply tell my keyboard hook to allow everything through... And there you have it. Jaws and DirectInput are now the best of friends. I am going to enable this as an option in BGT, because even though I tell everything to go straight through it does block certain Jaws specific keystrokes from being processed while you are in the window, almost as though Jaws had been in sleep mode though it technically is not. In other words, this will enable me to add support for Jaws speech output while preventing Jaws from messing about with the keyboard input. Just some information I figured I would share with you. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hi Philip. I've already seen the sapi support in bgt, (in fact if I ever get to coding a game with it that's what I'd be using), if it won't take you trouble to add fair enough, it just has been something in titles like Gmas which has always slightly confused me, sinse it has seemed odd to put in more work to bennifit some people, then even more to bennifit other groups, when one universally available solution is already there. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:29 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi Dark, BGT already has Sapi support, so this is as you say not strictly necessary but a lot of people requested it, and it won't take me very long to integrate so I figured that I might as well get it over and done with. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Not to mention Sapi. there are those of us who use Hal, and thus don't have any of the above, in fact my personal feeling is why add support for several windows screen readers which some people may or may not have when you can do just as well with sapi which everyone has. Sorry, but it just seems silly to develope support for five different systems in an effort to please everyone when you could do it with just the one. The only issue there is with sapi sis that not everyone will have a decent voice, but this is a synth voice issue not a screen reader one, and with companies like seerprock, acapella neospeech etc producing good quality sapi compliant voices which no longer cost the earth to buy, it's a good investment for anyone who wants to play audio games. in fact, I regard buying a sapi voice as rather like buying a joystick where audio games are concerned. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Karl Belanger karl.belan...@comcast.net To: 'Philip Bennefall' phi...@blastbay.com; 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT If you add Jaws support, please also add support for Window-Eyes, System Access, and NVDA as not everyone uses or even owns Jaws. What I'd recommend is have it autodetect the screen reader currently running, and interface with it. Karl -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Philip Bennefall Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 11:52 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi all, I have been opposed to adding screen reader support into BGT since the very beginning, though I am beginning to change my mind. The primary reason for my not wanting to do it has been the fact that Jaws steals a large number of keys from DirectInput, making it very hard to play games if Jaws is loaded and not in sleep mode. However, I have just managed to solve this problem. Jaws uses what is known as a low level, system wide keyboard hook which basically monitors the state of the keyboard device and decides whether input should be allowed through so that other applications can see it. Jaws, as we all know, decides that a lot of keys should not be let through such as the arrows, escape and a whole bunch of others. So what I have done is to set up a low level keyboard hook of my own, though a process specific hook rather than a global one. Why? Because process specific hooks always take priority over global ones, which means that I can simply tell my keyboard hook to allow everything through... And there you have it. Jaws and DirectInput are now the best of friends. I am going to enable this as an option in BGT, because even though I tell everything to go straight through it does block certain Jaws specific keystrokes from being processed while you are in the window, almost as though Jaws had been in sleep mode though it technically is not. In other words, this will enable me to add support for Jaws speech output while preventing Jaws from messing about with the keyboard input. Just some information I figured I would share with you. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hi tom. I suppose ultimately this is just because people like scansoft and whoever make eloquence are too greedy to just let people use their voices for other programs than Jaws, Hal or window eyes. However with more voicing programs being used on mobile phones, in generic business reading software etc, I'm not sure how long this atitude was persist, also, these days there seem far more makers of good quality voices around than a short time ago. Myself, I'm not convinced this situation will continue, especially when people realize that decent quality sapi complient synths are fairly easy to come by. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi Dark, I'm glad somebody actually agrees with me. Supporting x number of screen readers is, to be blunt, absolutely silly and unnecessary. However, I know the reason or the logic behind it. Some people love Eloquence and want Eloquence support AKA Jaws support. Personally, I don't find that a compelling reason to add screen reader support because I'm not an Eloquence fan, but you know how it goes. Different strokes for different folks and all that. Cheers! On 1/20/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Not to mention Sapi. there are those of us who use Hal, and thus don't have any of the above, in fact my personal feeling is why add support for several windows screen readers which some people may or may not have when you can do just as well with sapi which everyone has. Sorry, but it just seems silly to develope support for five different systems in an effort to please everyone when you could do it with just the one. The only issue there is with sapi sis that not everyone will have a decent voice, but this is a synth voice issue not a screen reader one, and with companies like seerprock, acapella neospeech etc producing good quality sapi compliant voices which no longer cost the earth to buy, it's a good investment for anyone who wants to play audio games. in fact, I regard buying a sapi voice as rather like buying a joystick where audio games are concerned. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hi Dark, I have had low responses from large SAPI voices on every machine now. I like Eloquence better than Orpheus, since I have been used to Eloquence all my life. It is more softly spoken than Orpheus, and I believe is much nicer to listen to while reading long documents. In my opinion Orpheus just sounds like a glorified version of ESpeak, or, as far as the sample based version is concerned, a glorified version of the Microsoft TTS voices. Eloquence reminds me of Dectalk and Keynote (Keynote is the very first synthetic voice I worked with). Yeah, call me nostalgic if you wish. Lol. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:35 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT I've never actually had lag or speed issues with scansoft daniel, even on my laptop which is five years old and has not the world's largest ram. I have noticed some lag when using realspeak with Hal even with hal's direct output (one reason I use orphius, sinse it is both extremely responsive and imho, sounds much nicer than eloquence), though also bare in mind my typing speed is pretty fast. But I haven't seen this issue in games running sapi, even timing based ones like lone wolf, or when writing in muds, pluss of course, if you have the libraries you can in fact run sapi with eloquence if you wish anyway. I wonder if there's something wonky in your setup which is giving low performance with sapi? Beware the grue! dark. - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 5:57 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi Dark, Synth voices like Eloquence and Dectalk are hard to get for SAPI 5 though. I tend to find with SAPI that you go from one extreme to the other. Either a low-sampled, quick but hard to understand one, or a high-sampled, large, slow, laggy, easy to understand one. However they all seem to be sample-based rather than formant-based. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 5:23 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Not to mention Sapi. there are those of us who use Hal, and thus don't have any of the above, in fact my personal feeling is why add support for several windows screen readers which some people may or may not have when you can do just as well with sapi which everyone has. Sorry, but it just seems silly to develope support for five different systems in an effort to please everyone when you could do it with just the one. The only issue there is with sapi sis that not everyone will have a decent voice, but this is a synth voice issue not a screen reader one, and with companies like seerprock, acapella neospeech etc producing good quality sapi compliant voices which no longer cost the earth to buy, it's a good investment for anyone who wants to play audio games. in fact, I regard buying a sapi voice as rather like buying a joystick where audio games are concerned. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Karl Belanger karl.belan...@comcast.net To: 'Philip Bennefall' phi...@blastbay.com; 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT If you add Jaws support, please also add support for Window-Eyes, System Access, and NVDA as not everyone uses or even owns Jaws. What I'd recommend is have it autodetect the screen reader currently running, and interface with it. Karl -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Philip Bennefall Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 11:52 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi all, I have been opposed to adding screen reader support into BGT since the very beginning, though I am beginning to change my mind. The primary reason for my not wanting to do it has been the fact that Jaws steals a large number of keys from DirectInput, making it very hard to play games if Jaws is loaded and not in sleep mode. However, I have just managed to solve this problem. Jaws uses what is known as a low level, system wide keyboard hook which basically monitors the state of the keyboard device and decides whether input should be allowed through so that other applications can see it. Jaws, as we all know, decides that a lot of keys should not be let through such as the arrows, escape and a whole bunch of others. So what I have done is to set up a low level keyboard hook of my own, though a process specific hook rather than a global one. Why? Because process specific hooks always take priority over global ones, which
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
I love scansoft Daniel. The only thing I don't like is it can't do drama. For an example, Ah how dare you! I will kill you! Who do you think you are! Scansoft Daniel can't do that. But in other words, its co'o'o'o'o'o'o'o'o'o'o'o'o'o'o'ol! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:35 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT I've never actually had lag or speed issues with scansoft daniel, even on my laptop which is five years old and has not the world's largest ram. I have noticed some lag when using realspeak with Hal even with hal's direct output (one reason I use orphius, sinse it is both extremely responsive and imho, sounds much nicer than eloquence), though also bare in mind my typing speed is pretty fast. But I haven't seen this issue in games running sapi, even timing based ones like lone wolf, or when writing in muds, pluss of course, if you have the libraries you can in fact run sapi with eloquence if you wish anyway. I wonder if there's something wonky in your setup which is giving low performance with sapi? Beware the grue! dark. - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 5:57 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi Dark, Synth voices like Eloquence and Dectalk are hard to get for SAPI 5 though. I tend to find with SAPI that you go from one extreme to the other. Either a low-sampled, quick but hard to understand one, or a high-sampled, large, slow, laggy, easy to understand one. However they all seem to be sample-based rather than formant-based. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 5:23 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Not to mention Sapi. there are those of us who use Hal, and thus don't have any of the above, in fact my personal feeling is why add support for several windows screen readers which some people may or may not have when you can do just as well with sapi which everyone has. Sorry, but it just seems silly to develope support for five different systems in an effort to please everyone when you could do it with just the one. The only issue there is with sapi sis that not everyone will have a decent voice, but this is a synth voice issue not a screen reader one, and with companies like seerprock, acapella neospeech etc producing good quality sapi compliant voices which no longer cost the earth to buy, it's a good investment for anyone who wants to play audio games. in fact, I regard buying a sapi voice as rather like buying a joystick where audio games are concerned. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Karl Belanger karl.belan...@comcast.net To: 'Philip Bennefall' phi...@blastbay.com; 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT If you add Jaws support, please also add support for Window-Eyes, System Access, and NVDA as not everyone uses or even owns Jaws. What I'd recommend is have it autodetect the screen reader currently running, and interface with it. Karl -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Philip Bennefall Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 11:52 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi all, I have been opposed to adding screen reader support into BGT since the very beginning, though I am beginning to change my mind. The primary reason for my not wanting to do it has been the fact that Jaws steals a large number of keys from DirectInput, making it very hard to play games if Jaws is loaded and not in sleep mode. However, I have just managed to solve this problem. Jaws uses what is known as a low level, system wide keyboard hook which basically monitors the state of the keyboard device and decides whether input should be allowed through so that other applications can see it. Jaws, as we all know, decides that a lot of keys should not be let through such as the arrows, escape and a whole bunch of others. So what I have done is to set up a low level keyboard hook of my own, though a process specific hook rather than a global one. Why? Because process specific hooks always take priority over global ones, which means that I can simply tell my keyboard hook to allow everything through... And there you have it. Jaws and DirectInput are now the best of friends. I am going to enable this as an option in BGT, because even though I tell everything to go straight through it does block certain Jaws specific keystrokes from being processed while you are in the window, almost as though
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hi Philip, Yeah, I understand your logic. When trying to market a product sometimes it comes down to mob rule. That still however doesn't wave my concerns about it. Now, a question. When people produce games is it possible to turn this feature off I.E. just use Sapi instead of Jaws support etc or are we stuck with whatever the game designer decides? My real concern is if someone who really loves Jaws decides only to support that screen reader and decides to screw everyone else who might want to use Window-Eyes, NVDA, Sapi, whatever just because they have an opinion that by supporting Jaws only they will be supporting 90% of the market etc. It would have to be universally understood by adding screen reader support every game written with BGT must offer alternative speech output systems. That no game can make this or that screen reader a default preference. Any thoughts or comments on this? Thanks. On 1/20/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi Thomas, Right, that strengthens my point about having screen reader enumeration in BGT if, of course, we want this support at all. I agree with you that it's not a critical or even important thing to have in a game engine, but I reason like this. Customers want it, customers pay the bills, customers get what they want. That's how I have to do my business, e.g. submit to popular demand even if I might not strictly agree with it on a personal level. Of course there are a lot of cases when I won't do it, but for something as simple as this I don't have a problem adding it. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hi, Well, the Scansoft, AKA Realspeak, voices are developed by Nuance. The same company that creates Dragon, Omnipage, etc. I'm sure there will be a day when they will have to change there practices or lose out. One reason I have purchased several Cepstral voices is because they are A, human sounding, B, affordable, C, Sapi 5 compatible, and D, cross-platform. This makes them one of the most affordable voices with more bang for the buck. ATT Voices are also good for gaming for pretty much the same reasons as the Cepstral voices. Cheers! On 1/20/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi tom. I suppose ultimately this is just because people like scansoft and whoever make eloquence are too greedy to just let people use their voices for other programs than Jaws, Hal or window eyes. However with more voicing programs being used on mobile phones, in generic business reading software etc, I'm not sure how long this atitude was persist, also, these days there seem far more makers of good quality voices around than a short time ago. Myself, I'm not convinced this situation will continue, especially when people realize that decent quality sapi complient synths are fairly easy to come by. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hi Damien. I'd fully agree that the orphius synthetic dave and synthetic andy voices are, well synthetic, and probably are worse than eloquence. however, I really do like their human voices, the Uk English voice Alan in particular. In fact Alan is the voice I've used for everything screen reader related for years now, ever sinse the human voices first came out, and I've never had issues with response times at all. i suppose though as you said, it all comes down to what your used to, I'd probably say the same about eloquence, ie, that it's not much better than espeak as you do about orphius ;D. As for the lag in sapi, as I said I've never really seen it myself, not with the scansoft voices anyway. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
I agree completely tom, but I don't really think this is Philip's problem, afterall he's essentially just providing the tools for the job, not saying how people should use them. if someone did just write in Jaws support because they believed most people used jaws and were too lazy to change things, well it's up to myself and all the other none jaws users to point out to them that they're being a prat, as in fact I did when during my first examination of muds back in 2004, I asked about screen reader support and was sent a bunch of jaws script files, rather sad actually sinse this put me completely off muds at the time, but I now Know I could've run mushclient quite successfully with Sapi, especially sinse the particular mud I was trying to play was Alterean. The most Philip could do would be to write some advice in the bgt documentation, but whether people take it would be their own fault really. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hi again, This is what I was about to say as well. Since I'm writing a general purpose audio game engine I cannot tell people what they may or may not do. I can advise, sure, but I won't enforce the use of all screen readers as I feel that this should be very much up to the individual game developer. If they choose not to support one or more screen readers even though they are easy to access from within the engine, the community must speak about this to the developer in question just as though their program had been written independently in vb.net or C++ without the help of a dedicated engine, as it were. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 11:25 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT I agree completely tom, but I don't really think this is Philip's problem, afterall he's essentially just providing the tools for the job, not saying how people should use them. if someone did just write in Jaws support because they believed most people used jaws and were too lazy to change things, well it's up to myself and all the other none jaws users to point out to them that they're being a prat, as in fact I did when during my first examination of muds back in 2004, I asked about screen reader support and was sent a bunch of jaws script files, rather sad actually sinse this put me completely off muds at the time, but I now Know I could've run mushclient quite successfully with Sapi, especially sinse the particular mud I was trying to play was Alterean. The most Philip could do would be to write some advice in the bgt documentation, but whether people take it would be their own fault really. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Well in truth if you want to argue from that standpoint that can be said of just about any language. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 20, 2011, at 3:30 PM, Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Philip, Yeah, I understand your logic. When trying to market a product sometimes it comes down to mob rule. That still however doesn't wave my concerns about it. Now, a question. When people produce games is it possible to turn this feature off I.E. just use Sapi instead of Jaws support etc or are we stuck with whatever the game designer decides? My real concern is if someone who really loves Jaws decides only to support that screen reader and decides to screw everyone else who might want to use Window-Eyes, NVDA, Sapi, whatever just because they have an opinion that by supporting Jaws only they will be supporting 90% of the market etc. It would have to be universally understood by adding screen reader support every game written with BGT must offer alternative speech output systems. That no game can make this or that screen reader a default preference. Any thoughts or comments on this? Thanks. On 1/20/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi Thomas, Right, that strengthens my point about having screen reader enumeration in BGT if, of course, we want this support at all. I agree with you that it's not a critical or even important thing to have in a game engine, but I reason like this. Customers want it, customers pay the bills, customers get what they want. That's how I have to do my business, e.g. submit to popular demand even if I might not strictly agree with it on a personal level. Of course there are a lot of cases when I won't do it, but for something as simple as this I don't have a problem adding it. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hi, Well, that depends. I noticed that the Sapi version of Realspeak voices do lag a little, but it is n't too bad. However, the Realspeak Direct voices for Jaws 11 are very responsive and I generally use something like Scansoft Tom as my default voice rather than Eloquence. On 1/20/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: Hi Damien. I'd fully agree that the orphius synthetic dave and synthetic andy voices are, well synthetic, and probably are worse than eloquence. however, I really do like their human voices, the Uk English voice Alan in particular. In fact Alan is the voice I've used for everything screen reader related for years now, ever sinse the human voices first came out, and I've never had issues with response times at all. i suppose though as you said, it all comes down to what your used to, I'd probably say the same about eloquence, ie, that it's not much better than espeak as you do about orphius ;D. As for the lag in sapi, as I said I've never really seen it myself, not with the scansoft voices anyway. Beware the grue! dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hi Philip, Again, quite understandable. Let's hope though that nobody is rash enough to just support Jaws and forget about the rest of us who might be using Window-Eyes or something else. Oh, I have a copy of Jaws 11, but it isn't my primary screen reader and I'm not purchasing Jaws 12. I'm sticking with the version I have, and when it gets too old to support that will be the end of it most likely. My future with Windows will probably be with NVDA or Window-Eyes. Depending on if I can continue to pay for the upgrades, or want to now that I use Linux most of the time anyway. So I am seriously hoping VI game developers aren't asking for Jaws support just to drop alternative methods in favor of it. On 1/20/11, Philip Bennefall phi...@blastbay.com wrote: Hi again, This is what I was about to say as well. Since I'm writing a general purpose audio game engine I cannot tell people what they may or may not do. I can advise, sure, but I won't enforce the use of all screen readers as I feel that this should be very much up to the individual game developer. If they choose not to support one or more screen readers even though they are easy to access from within the engine, the community must speak about this to the developer in question just as though their program had been written independently in vb.net or C++ without the help of a dedicated engine, as it were. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
Hi Dark, Yeah, I know. It is just the everybody uses Jaws attitude that gets under my skin, because not everybody uses it. Yes, i have it, but only because it was paid for by a state agency when they were trying to help me get through college and find employment. It wasn't by personal choice. I have obtained another screen reader, Window-eyes, by personal choice so naturally I favor it more since I'm the guy who fit the bill for it and wanted it. To have someone snub my choice by using Jaws only would be an insult much as it would be to a Hal user like yourself. On 1/20/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: I agree completely tom, but I don't really think this is Philip's problem, afterall he's essentially just providing the tools for the job, not saying how people should use them. if someone did just write in Jaws support because they believed most people used jaws and were too lazy to change things, well it's up to myself and all the other none jaws users to point out to them that they're being a prat, as in fact I did when during my first examination of muds back in 2004, I asked about screen reader support and was sent a bunch of jaws script files, rather sad actually sinse this put me completely off muds at the time, but I now Know I could've run mushclient quite successfully with Sapi, especially sinse the particular mud I was trying to play was Alterean. The most Philip could do would be to write some advice in the bgt documentation, but whether people take it would be their own fault really. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
I think you'd be hard pressed to find a screne reader that could! do drama Muhammed, sinse afterall the screen reader doesn't know what it's saying. interestingly enough, a friend of mine who has a degree in computer science once did speculate on creating some html tags which could be added to pages of text and serve as output markers for synth voices to alter intonation, speed, pitch and pauses betwene words so as to create in effect a way of writing scripts which a synth could read dramatically. Unfortunately she never got beyond the planning stage, but it was an interesting idea. As to scansoft daniel, the only thing that rather irritates me is the fact that unlike with orphius, you can do nothing to alter it's dictionary. I really dislike the way it interprets certain letters as words, for example mps as meters per second or ms as manuscript, sinse this can make looking at statistics in muds or if games quite a pest. I do find the way it keeps mentioning manuscript sapi quite amusing, it sort of has a bit of a biblical ring to it ;D. Beware the Grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Shiny protector muhamme...@googlemail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 9:28 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT I love scansoft Daniel. The only thing I don't like is it can't do drama. For an example, Ah how dare you! I will kill you! Who do you think you are! Scansoft Daniel can't do that. But in other words, its co'o'o'o'o'o'o'o'o'o'o'o'o'o'o'ol! - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 8:35 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT I've never actually had lag or speed issues with scansoft daniel, even on my laptop which is five years old and has not the world's largest ram. I have noticed some lag when using realspeak with Hal even with hal's direct output (one reason I use orphius, sinse it is both extremely responsive and imho, sounds much nicer than eloquence), though also bare in mind my typing speed is pretty fast. But I haven't seen this issue in games running sapi, even timing based ones like lone wolf, or when writing in muds, pluss of course, if you have the libraries you can in fact run sapi with eloquence if you wish anyway. I wonder if there's something wonky in your setup which is giving low performance with sapi? Beware the grue! dark. - Original Message - From: Damien Pendleton dam...@x-sight-interactive.net To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 5:57 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi Dark, Synth voices like Eloquence and Dectalk are hard to get for SAPI 5 though. I tend to find with SAPI that you go from one extreme to the other. Either a low-sampled, quick but hard to understand one, or a high-sampled, large, slow, laggy, easy to understand one. However they all seem to be sample-based rather than formant-based. Regards, Damien. - Original Message - From: dark d...@xgam.org To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 5:23 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Not to mention Sapi. there are those of us who use Hal, and thus don't have any of the above, in fact my personal feeling is why add support for several windows screen readers which some people may or may not have when you can do just as well with sapi which everyone has. Sorry, but it just seems silly to develope support for five different systems in an effort to please everyone when you could do it with just the one. The only issue there is with sapi sis that not everyone will have a decent voice, but this is a synth voice issue not a screen reader one, and with companies like seerprock, acapella neospeech etc producing good quality sapi compliant voices which no longer cost the earth to buy, it's a good investment for anyone who wants to play audio games. in fact, I regard buying a sapi voice as rather like buying a joystick where audio games are concerned. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Karl Belanger karl.belan...@comcast.net To: 'Philip Bennefall' phi...@blastbay.com; 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT If you add Jaws support, please also add support for Window-Eyes, System Access, and NVDA as not everyone uses or even owns Jaws. What I'd recommend is have it autodetect the screen reader currently running, and interface with it. Karl -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Philip Bennefall Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 11:52 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Screen reader support
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
since jaws support will be added what about nvda support? On Jan 20, 2011, at 11:51 AM, Philip Bennefall wrote: Hi all, I have been opposed to adding screen reader support into BGT since the very beginning, though I am beginning to change my mind. The primary reason for my not wanting to do it has been the fact that Jaws steals a large number of keys from DirectInput, making it very hard to play games if Jaws is loaded and not in sleep mode. However, I have just managed to solve this problem. Jaws uses what is known as a low level, system wide keyboard hook which basically monitors the state of the keyboard device and decides whether input should be allowed through so that other applications can see it. Jaws, as we all know, decides that a lot of keys should not be let through such as the arrows, escape and a whole bunch of others. So what I have done is to set up a low level keyboard hook of my own, though a process specific hook rather than a global one. Why? Because process specific hooks always take priority over global ones, which means that I can simply tell my keyboard hook to allow everything through... And there you have it. Jaws and DirectInput are now the best of friends. I am going to enable this as an option in BGT, because even though I tell everything to go straight through it does block certain Jaws specific keystrokes from being processed while you are in the window, almost as though Jaws had been in sleep mode though it technically is not. In other words, this will enable me to add support for Jaws speech output while preventing Jaws from messing about with the keyboard input. Just some information I figured I would share with you. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
either that or have it to where the user can switch screen readers in case people want to play using jaws and then switch to window-eyes On Jan 20, 2011, at 11:58 AM, Karl Belanger wrote: If you add Jaws support, please also add support for Window-Eyes, System Access, and NVDA as not everyone uses or even owns Jaws. What I'd recommend is have it autodetect the screen reader currently running, and interface with it. Karl -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Philip Bennefall Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 11:52 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi all, I have been opposed to adding screen reader support into BGT since the very beginning, though I am beginning to change my mind. The primary reason for my not wanting to do it has been the fact that Jaws steals a large number of keys from DirectInput, making it very hard to play games if Jaws is loaded and not in sleep mode. However, I have just managed to solve this problem. Jaws uses what is known as a low level, system wide keyboard hook which basically monitors the state of the keyboard device and decides whether input should be allowed through so that other applications can see it. Jaws, as we all know, decides that a lot of keys should not be let through such as the arrows, escape and a whole bunch of others. So what I have done is to set up a low level keyboard hook of my own, though a process specific hook rather than a global one. Why? Because process specific hooks always take priority over global ones, which means that I can simply tell my keyboard hook to allow everything through... And there you have it. Jaws and DirectInput are now the best of friends. I am going to enable this as an option in BGT, because even though I tell everything to go straight through it does block certain Jaws specific keystrokes from being processed while you are in the window, almost as though Jaws had been in sleep mode though it technically is not. In other words, this will enable me to add support for Jaws speech output while preventing Jaws from messing about with the keyboard input. Just some information I figured I would share with you. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
i think sapi support is already included . On Jan 20, 2011, at 12:23 PM, dark wrote: Not to mention Sapi. there are those of us who use Hal, and thus don't have any of the above, in fact my personal feeling is why add support for several windows screen readers which some people may or may not have when you can do just as well with sapi which everyone has. Sorry, but it just seems silly to develope support for five different systems in an effort to please everyone when you could do it with just the one. The only issue there is with sapi sis that not everyone will have a decent voice, but this is a synth voice issue not a screen reader one, and with companies like seerprock, acapella neospeech etc producing good quality sapi compliant voices which no longer cost the earth to buy, it's a good investment for anyone who wants to play audio games. in fact, I regard buying a sapi voice as rather like buying a joystick where audio games are concerned. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Karl Belanger karl.belan...@comcast.net To: 'Philip Bennefall' phi...@blastbay.com; 'Gamers Discussion list' gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 4:58 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT If you add Jaws support, please also add support for Window-Eyes, System Access, and NVDA as not everyone uses or even owns Jaws. What I'd recommend is have it autodetect the screen reader currently running, and interface with it. Karl -Original Message- From: gamers-boun...@audyssey.org [mailto:gamers-boun...@audyssey.org] On Behalf Of Philip Bennefall Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2011 11:52 AM To: Gamers Discussion list Subject: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi all, I have been opposed to adding screen reader support into BGT since the very beginning, though I am beginning to change my mind. The primary reason for my not wanting to do it has been the fact that Jaws steals a large number of keys from DirectInput, making it very hard to play games if Jaws is loaded and not in sleep mode. However, I have just managed to solve this problem. Jaws uses what is known as a low level, system wide keyboard hook which basically monitors the state of the keyboard device and decides whether input should be allowed through so that other applications can see it. Jaws, as we all know, decides that a lot of keys should not be let through such as the arrows, escape and a whole bunch of others. So what I have done is to set up a low level keyboard hook of my own, though a process specific hook rather than a global one. Why? Because process specific hooks always take priority over global ones, which means that I can simply tell my keyboard hook to allow everything through... And there you have it. Jaws and DirectInput are now the best of friends. I am going to enable this as an option in BGT, because even though I tell everything to go straight through it does block certain Jaws specific keystrokes from being processed while you are in the window, almost as though Jaws had been in sleep mode though it technically is not. In other words, this will enable me to add support for Jaws speech output while preventing Jaws from messing about with the keyboard input. Just some information I figured I would share with you. Kind regards, Philip Bennefall --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
well, with nvda you can also support synths like festival and piko. On Jan 20, 2011, at 1:49 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Shaun, And the point of NvDA support is? With NVDA you can choose from ESpeak, which is Sapi compatible anyway, and/or any Sapi 5 voices. So your logic is well I want to support this or that Sapi 5 voice but instead of using Sapi directly I'll load NVDA and access Sapi remotely rather than directly. That's dumb. You use more resources etc doing it that way for no reason. Cheers! On 1/20/11, shaun everiss sm.ever...@gmail.com wrote: what about nvda with the nvda controler client dll. THats not gona be that hard to do, nvda doesn't block keys. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT
I completely agree tom and indeed am in a rather similar position where Hal is concerned, sinse though the initial license for version five was bought for me ten years ago as part of my university equipment grant, I've sinse then personally bought all the version upgrades myself out of my own money, though sinse starting my phd for complicated burocratic reasons I have managed to wangle a couple out of my disabled students allowence, though i didn't expect this. I'll quite probably be paying the 130 quid for Hal 12 in the next 18 months or so. Btw, yes, once you've bought the initial Hal license, it's yours forever and ever amen, on up to three machines, with new keys when you want them, and there's no need to rebuy it. In fact, while my brother has decided he's happy with windows default magnification and thus hasn't updated his supernova license in about nine years and is stil running version six, sinse my mum wishes a screen reader and magnifyer on her computer i've found that while roughly twice the price of a normal single version upgrade to bring it up to version 11, my brother's license is stil perfectly valid despite it being such a long time. The Jaws business about having to rebuy the license if you don't pay for version upgrades has always struck me as really quite strange, not to say rather stingy. Beware the grue! Dark. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward thomasward1...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 2:37 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Screen reader support in BGT Hi Dark, Yeah, I know. It is just the everybody uses Jaws attitude that gets under my skin, because not everybody uses it. Yes, i have it, but only because it was paid for by a state agency when they were trying to help me get through college and find employment. It wasn't by personal choice. I have obtained another screen reader, Window-eyes, by personal choice so naturally I favor it more since I'm the guy who fit the bill for it and wanted it. To have someone snub my choice by using Jaws only would be an insult much as it would be to a Hal user like yourself. On 1/20/11, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: I agree completely tom, but I don't really think this is Philip's problem, afterall he's essentially just providing the tools for the job, not saying how people should use them. if someone did just write in Jaws support because they believed most people used jaws and were too lazy to change things, well it's up to myself and all the other none jaws users to point out to them that they're being a prat, as in fact I did when during my first examination of muds back in 2004, I asked about screen reader support and was sent a bunch of jaws script files, rather sad actually sinse this put me completely off muds at the time, but I now Know I could've run mushclient quite successfully with Sapi, especially sinse the particular mud I was trying to play was Alterean. The most Philip could do would be to write some advice in the bgt documentation, but whether people take it would be their own fault really. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gamers@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
