Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Greg Cope
Dave Hodgkinson wrote: Robin Houston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (Sadly I no longer have shell access to any four-processor Sun machines to confirm this.) Which reminds me. How in gods name do Sun get away with charging so much for stuff? We've erm, "acquired" an enterprise 420.

RE: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Jonathan Peterson
For the same money I could build a clutster of what, 30 linux boxes? Don't tell me programmer time has got that expensive? Or that thinking about what you're doing stopped happening? If it's good enough for Google... Help me out here! It is good kit (and alot of it is rebadged stuff

RE: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Barman, Harry
sense. For other people where you don't have the above constraints it's probably not worth the extra. -- Harry -Original Message- From: Greg Cope [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 26 January 2001 10:17 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Dominic Mitchell
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 10:35:45AM +, Steve Mynott wrote: I suspect things like SMP probably still work better. And if I were on call supporting a server I would probably still trust a Sparc running Solaris over some dodgy PC desktop with Redhat stuck on it by a hobbyist who has never

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread David Cantrell
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 10:17:21AM +, Greg Cope wrote: Dave Hodgkinson wrote: How in gods name do Sun get away with charging so much for stuff? It is good kit But it's also a marketing thing I know tow clients whom purchased 15k of sun kit each, and in either case a good

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Andy Williams
On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Dominic Mitchell wrote: On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 10:35:45AM +, Steve Mynott wrote: I suspect things like SMP probably still work better. And if I were on call supporting a server I would probably still trust a Sparc running Solaris over some dodgy PC desktop with

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Greg Cope
Steve Mynott wrote: Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [..] How in gods name do Sun get away with charging so much for stuff? Because they can and they have a brand people trust like IBM or Microsoft. In fact you can buy far cheaper Sun clones from companies like Transtec

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Greg Cope
Michael Stevens wrote: On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 10:35:45AM +, Steve Mynott wrote: I suspect things like SMP probably still work better. And if I were on call supporting a server I would probably still trust a Sparc running Solaris over some dodgy PC desktop with Redhat stuck on it by

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Roger Burton West
On or about Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:07:02AM +, Michael Stevens typed: I imagine you could get a pc service contract on the same level as Sun do, but I have no experience in the area. Has anyone got any experience paying vast amounts of money for PC support? did you get much for your money?

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Michael Stevens
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:18:06AM +, Greg Cope wrote: How about a decently built rack mount PC running Debian[1], by someone who actually knows how to setup that particular OS decently, as compared with a Sun box running Solaris setup by someone good with solaris? (And, myself,

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Michael Stevens
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:19:02AM +, Roger Burton West wrote: On or about Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:07:02AM +, Michael Stevens typed: I imagine you could get a pc service contract on the same level as Sun do, but I have no experience in the area. Has anyone got any experience paying

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Andy Williams
On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Michael Stevens wrote: Can't we compare something vaguely equivalent here instead? I personally would have just as little faith in Solaris run by someone who didn't know what they were doing as I would in Redhat run by someone who didn't know what they were doing. How

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Michael Stevens
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:30:03AM +, Roger Burton West wrote: On or about Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:23:26AM +, Michael Stevens typed: On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:19:02AM +, Roger Burton West wrote: Dell offer this on some of their servers. IMHO this is always a waste of money -

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Michael Stevens
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:30:28AM +, Struan Donald wrote: on the other hand kickstart files aren't that tricky to write and you can then set up the box in a sensible way (or something approaching that) and it's very easy to set up a chunk of boxes the same. of course you a box to put

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Michael Stevens
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:39:17AM +, Struan Donald wrote: One of these days I must play with the FAI (fully automatic installation) stuff for debian. kickstart is (i assume) teh redhat equiv of FAI. or at least it is if FAI is stick floppy in system, create symlink in some magic format

RE: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Jonathan Peterson
Agreed entirely. I was thinking purely of hardware support; software support IME is always and everywhere a complete waste of time and money. I have encountered good software support with applications that: a) Cost over 20 grand and/or b) Are not widely used I think there are lots of

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Roger Burton West
On or about Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 12:08:22PM -, Jonathan Peterson typed: And then people wonder why I like open source... Even within OS software there's good support and bad support. There's plenty of OS software that _doesn't_ have helpful user groups, and has very poor documentation and

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Steve Mynott
This is really sysadminy stuff and probably off topic but here I go:- Michael Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Isn't kickstart a solaris thing, or have redhat developed new stuff I didn't know about? Kickstart is RedHat http://wwwcache.ja.net/dev/kickstart/KickStart-HOWTO.html Jumpstart

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Michael Stevens
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 12:16:52PM +, Steve Mynott wrote: There's very little off-topic on this list :) Kickstart is RedHat http://wwwcache.ja.net/dev/kickstart/KickStart-HOWTO.html Jumpstart is Solaris Both are automated install procedures. Yes. I have learnt. If it is just

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Rob Partington
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [1] My main gripe with *BSD is lack of binary package management Um, then what's this? pkg_add ftp://ftp.plig.org/pub/OpenBSD/2.8/packages/i386/dia-0.86p1.tgz That installed a precompiled binary of dia for me. Or do you

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Steve Mynott
Rob Partington [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: That installed a precompiled binary of dia for me. Or do you mean that, say, pkg_* don't have the same functionality as RPM? It has the same (or similar functionality) but its database isn't complete because it doesn't include _every_ system file. --

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Rob Partington
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On RedHat I can do something like 'rpm -e sendmail' to clean up before installing qmail and, alas, I can't do this on OpenBSD (although there has been talk of extending the binary packages to include the base OS). If you

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Steve Mynott
Rob Partington [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On RedHat I can do something like 'rpm -e sendmail' to clean up before installing qmail and, alas, I can't do this on OpenBSD (although there has been talk of extending the

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Dominic Mitchell
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 01:59:09PM +, Steve Mynott wrote: Rob Partington [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On RedHat I can do something like 'rpm -e sendmail' to clean up before installing qmail and, alas, I can't do this

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Dominic Mitchell
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 12:08:22PM -, Jonathan Peterson wrote: I've encountered good support for Veritas' Netbackup package, but again we were paying about 6k / annum for the support contract. Lucky you! I spit on the earth that NetBackup walks on! It's one of the worst packages I've

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Greg Cope
Redvers Davies wrote: Would this still hold for a RedDrat system with all the X stuff and other unncessary stuff removed ? Nah, ou want slackware A, N and D... No more. 10 meg for your base OS, compile what you need. Stop IT ... I am not using slackware ! Greg

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Redvers Davies
Under FreeBSD, you've got sendmail-wrapper instead, which you can configure to point to any installed file. Linux has that too - its called a symbolic link: tonkatsu:~# ls -al /usr/lib/sendmail /usr/sbin/sendmail lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 18 Dec 9 1998 /usr/lib/sendmail -

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Redvers Davies
Stop IT ... I am not using slackware ! Ans why not?? For a server it is perfect. Very small, very compact. Perfect for a secure environment.

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Dominic Mitchell
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 05:19:08PM +, Redvers Davies wrote: Stop IT ... I am not using slackware ! Ans why not?? For a server it is perfect. Very small, very compact. Perfect for a secure environment. Is that why slackware.com got broken into a few weeks ago then? :-) -Dom

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Redvers Davies
Is that why slackware.com got broken into a few weeks ago then? :-) I'm not going to rise to that at all as you know full well that the security of a product has more to do with its installation, configuration and maintainence than the code. Regardless of supplier, if the admin does not lock

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Elaine -HFB- Ashton
Roger Burton West [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth: *On or about Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 12:08:22PM -, Jonathan Peterson typed: * * And then people wonder why I like open source... *Even within OS software there's good support and bad support. There's plenty *of OS software that _doesn't_ have helpful

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Michael Stevens
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:40:13AM -0600, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: *Oh, agreed entirely. The key thing is that nobody _expects_ a professional *support service, so they're less disappointed when it doesn't happen. I don't think this is true for the great majority of software end-users out

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Elaine -HFB- Ashton
Michael Stevens [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth: * *I personally would have just as little faith in Solaris run by someone *who didn't know what they were doing as I would in Redhat run by *someone who didn't know what they were doing. I would have more faith in Solaris. On an acadmeic network, no

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Elaine -HFB- Ashton
Michael Stevens [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth: * *Can anyone point to actual studies of the "we took some end users, and *found they wanted FOO amounts of documentation". And, for completeness, *"we took some end users, looked at what they were actually using, and *then looked at how much

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Elaine -HFB- Ashton
Michael Stevens [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth: * *Isn't kickstart a solaris thing, or have redhat developed new stuff *I didn't know about? Jumpstart. e.

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Greg Cope
Redvers Davies wrote: Stop IT ... I am not using slackware ! Ans why not?? For a server it is perfect. Very small, very compact. Perfect for a secure environment. Only joking - I'm used to redhat - I might move to Debian who knows ? I am quite happy with redhat / debian as I know

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Michael Stevens
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:50:00AM -0600, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: Michael Stevens [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth: *I personally would have just as little faith in Solaris run by someone *who didn't know what they were doing as I would in Redhat run by *someone who didn't know what they were

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Michael Stevens
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:59:08AM -0600, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: Michael Stevens [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth: *Isn't kickstart a solaris thing, or have redhat developed new stuff *I didn't know about? Jumpstart. yes, I found that out, my memory sucks.

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Dave Hodgkinson
Dominic Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Yes, don't forget that symbolic links originated in BSD, thank you. :-) Don't forget that pretty much everything of any use in Unix came out of Berkely! I spit on your system V IPC, I want my select()... -- Dave Hodgkinson,

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Michael Stevens
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 06:04:07PM +, Michael Stevens wrote: On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:50:00AM -0600, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: Michael Stevens [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth: I take that post back. I don't think it would be productive to continue the discussion. Michael

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread David Cantrell
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:50:00AM -0600, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: I would have more faith in Solaris. On an acadmeic network, no firewalls, we had user workstations that pretty much lived on their own and at the mercy of their users. One day, one of the AI profs installed RedHat after

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Elaine -HFB- Ashton
David Cantrell [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth: * *And yet this is not Linux's fault. It is the fault of: * the person who set it up wrongly in the first place * the network people for making their network so vulnerable to this *sort of predictable stupidity OpenBSD hasn't had a exploitable

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Jonathan Stowe
On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: I have a farm of suns, if you want to make a benchmark, I'll be very interested to run and compare the results. I have three E250s running Informix in my hareem, the only time those suckers have broken is when someone broke the database

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Paul Makepeace
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 10:42:16AM +, Dominic Mitchell wrote: Multi processor Solaris runs rings around any of the free Unixes. They've had kernel threads for nearly 10 years, and it's very optimized. Hmm, last time I checked Solaris threads were a nightmare... I suspect that SGIs IRIX

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-26 Thread Paul Makepeace
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:33:54PM +, Dominic Mitchell wrote: Under FreeBSD, you've got sendmail-wrapper instead, which you can configure to point to any installed file. Debian has generalised this in /etc/alternatives, $ ls -l /etc/alternatives/ | head -6 total 1 -rw-r--r--1 root

Re: Sun's Perl was Re: Application servers and e-commerce platforms

2001-01-25 Thread Dave Hodgkinson
Robin Houston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (Sadly I no longer have shell access to any four-processor Sun machines to confirm this.) Which reminds me. How in gods name do Sun get away with charging so much for stuff? We've erm, "acquired" an enterprise 420. this box has 2 CPUs, 4G or RAM and