Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-04 Thread Gareth Nelson
I don't see any issue with a company wanting custom work done on the
project as long as it doesn't contradict the goals of the project.

For example, a company might want to pay more to improve particular
hardware drivers, is that really a problem?

Consulting could be a good way to raise funds for the project while also
encouraging usage.

On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 9:18 PM, Christoph R. Murauer  wrote:

> > How about a series of 'Corporate' CDs, with a sliding scale of prices,
> > incrementing on a traditional per user/account/cpu/etc basis?
> >
> > Management & purchasing people are accustomed to this.
>
> [ ... ]
>
> I (only my personal opinion) think this contradicts with the main goal
> (Free) of the project.
>
> See FAQ 1.4 and the donations page
>
> *Such contributions are considered strictly gifts to the OpenBSD
> Project, [ ... ]*
>
> If a company pays in a kind like you suggest, then they expect
> something like a service contract or a way to influence the project.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-04 Thread Ted Unangst
Gareth Nelson wrote:
> I don't see any issue with a company wanting custom work done on the
> project as long as it doesn't contradict the goals of the project.
> 
> For example, a company might want to pay more to improve particular
> hardware drivers, is that really a problem?
> 
> Consulting could be a good way to raise funds for the project while also
> encouraging usage.

Nothing prevents you from hiring someone to develop or improve a feature and
contributing the code back to the project.

Certain other projects that supported themselves as consultancies have had a
difficult time maintaining quality because they are being paid to have other
priorities.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-04 Thread Christoph R. Murauer
> I don't see any issue with a company wanting custom work done on the
> project as long as it doesn't contradict the goals of the project.
>
> For example, a company might want to pay more to improve particular
> hardware drivers, is that really a problem?
>
> Consulting could be a good way to raise funds for the project while
> also
> encouraging usage.

See tedu@'s suggestion in the next message (I don't want to replay
twice).

There are 2 other points. First, Theo's day has only 24 hours (who
should do it ?) and second, does he want to do that (that his project
go this way) ?

If you like to start a project like that and, if you find people who
help you - great (serious meaned !). From the income you could donate
direct a part to Theo.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-04 Thread Theo de Raadt
> Consulting could be a good way to raise funds for the project while also
> encouraging usage.

Obviously all the developers should add additional consulting gigs on
the side, to improve freeload.

Unfortunately our software to add additional hours to the day isn't
finished yet, because most of us have real jobs.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-03 Thread Christoph R. Murauer
> How about a series of 'Corporate' CDs, with a sliding scale of prices,
> incrementing on a traditional per user/account/cpu/etc basis?
>
> Management & purchasing people are accustomed to this.

[ ... ]

I (only my personal opinion) think this contradicts with the main goal
(Free) of the project.

See FAQ 1.4 and the donations page

*Such contributions are considered strictly gifts to the OpenBSD
Project, [ ... ]*

If a company pays in a kind like you suggest, then they expect
something like a service contract or a way to influence the project.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-03 Thread Craig Skinner
On 2015-12-01 Tue 22:08 PM |, Marko Cupa?? wrote:
> 
> But I work for a company whose networking relies heavily on
> OpenBSD. My boss, although not from FOSS world, understands the value
> of good software, so I managed to persuade him to approve purchase of
> CD set every release. He also understand software is free to use, and
> sees CD set as 'suggested semi-annual contribution'. Buying something
> physical such as CD keeps our purchase department happy. It would be
> much harder, or even impossible, to explain a donation, as would
> purchase of multiple CD sets.
> 
> Now, if you take into account that the company I work for pays hundreds
> of euros per year to a Cisco partner just to be able to get bug fixes
> for single router, I don't think my boss would object to buying CD set
> even if it was double or triple the price.
> 

How about a series of 'Corporate' CDs, with a sliding scale of prices,
incrementing on a traditional per user/account/cpu/etc basis?

Management & purchasing people are accustomed to this.

The only difference would be a selection of CDs to choose from at the
online shop, with different invoice product descriptions.

Each 'product' has a separate URL that techs can email to purchasing.

"Dear Purchasing,
As discussed with management (cc'd here), our company requires the
500-750 CPU-CORE product, which costs GB?5000 + VAT & freight.
The online purchasing link is ..
Regards,
Company Sysadmin."

There would be no licence difference.

A freewill honesty scale of prices - for the same disks.

Maybe a coloured sticker on the box before hand over to Royal Mail.

Cheers.
-- 
In 1914, the first crossword puzzle was printed in a newspaper.
The creator received $4000 down ... and $3000 across.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-02 Thread Richard Thornton
I have no clue what a hackathon costs, any ballpark averages?

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone on the Verizon Wireless 4G LTE network.
  Original Message  
From: Theo de Raadt
Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2015 11:11 AM
To: Donald Allen
Cc: Theo de Raadt; misc; Richard Thornton
Subject: Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

> But if we lose the project leader due to lack of exercise and food,
> that's not good for the project. You made it very clear in a previous
> message to this thread that no Foundation money comes to you. So while
> the Foundation may be doing good things with their money, we, the
> community, need to be sure that you have what you need. And in the
> unlikely event that the freeloader factor decreases and we send you
> more than you need, couldn't you turn the excess over to the
> Foundation?

Easily done by paying for a hackathon or two directly.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-02 Thread Theo de Raadt
> But if we lose the project leader due to lack of exercise and food,
> that's not good for the project. You made it very clear in a previous
> message to this thread that no Foundation money comes to you. So while
> the Foundation may be doing good things with their money, we, the
> community, need to be sure that you have what you need. And in the
> unlikely event that the freeloader factor decreases and we send you
> more than you need, couldn't you turn the excess over to the
> Foundation?

Easily done by paying for a hackathon or two directly.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-02 Thread Donald Allen
On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 11:11 AM, Theo de Raadt  wrote:
>> But if we lose the project leader due to lack of exercise and food,
>> that's not good for the project. You made it very clear in a previous
>> message to this thread that no Foundation money comes to you. So while
>> the Foundation may be doing good things with their money, we, the
>> community, need to be sure that you have what you need. And in the
>> unlikely event that the freeloader factor decreases and we send you
>> more than you need, couldn't you turn the excess over to the
>> Foundation?
>
> Easily done by paying for a hackathon or two directly.

Just to be sure I'm understanding you correctly, you are saying that
you can handle the case "easily" where you have more than enough money
for your needs by your paying for hackathons from the excess?

If I've got that right, then it seems clear that when we sit down to
thank you and your team by helping financially, the money ought to go
to you. That might be hard for you to say, because of the obvious
awkwardness, but I can say it. This seems clear, given declining CD
revenues (which provide some support for you) and the Foundation
providing no support for you. That doesn't sound sustainable, unless
we pitch in with sufficient direct contributions to you.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-02 Thread Theo de Raadt
> I have no clue what a hackathon costs, any ballpark averages?

http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/financials/2014/IncomeStatement2014.txt
http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/financials/2013/IncomeStatement2013.txt

These reports can be compared against http://www.openbsd.org/hackathons.html
to find events not listed in the OpenBSD Foundation report.  In that
case someone else stepped up to cover the costs.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-02 Thread justin

On 2015-12-02 16:21, Theo de Raadt wrote:

I have no clue what a hackathon costs, any ballpark averages?



http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/financials/2014/IncomeStatement2014.txt

http://www.openbsdfoundation.org/financials/2013/IncomeStatement2013.txt

These reports can be compared against 
http://www.openbsd.org/hackathons.html

to find events not listed in the OpenBSD Foundation report.  In that
case someone else stepped up to cover the costs.


Those 2014 figures look a lot healthier than the 2013 ones.  Hopefully 
that

keeps up, it's a good trajectory. :)

+ Justin



getting money to deraadt@ [Was: Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?]

2015-12-02 Thread Marcus MERIGHI
dera...@openbsd.org (Theo de Raadt), 2015.12.02 (Wed) 02:18 (CET):
> >I don't think that quite covers it. Those of us who have the choice
> >can send checks or Paypal money directly to Theo, as described on the
> >Donations page. I think checks are preferable, because they eliminate
> >Paypal skimming its credit-card-like fees, at the cost of a stamp. The
> >CDs also involve paying a middle-man.
>
> Completely true.  Also it is a 20 minute walk each way to the bank,
> and keyboard folk need to do more walks.

Theo, sending money to the account below gets it to you directly, right?
(though it undermines your walking training, sorry ;-)

from donations.html to bank-donation.html, haven't seen this mentioned
in the thread yet:

>From Inside Europe (SEPA):

IBAN: DE91 7007 0024 0338 1779 00
BIC: DEUTDEDBMUC
Name: Theo de Raadt
Address: Deutsche Bank, Marienplatz 21
80331 M?nchen, Germany

>From outside Europe:

SWIFT: DEUTDEDBMUC
Account: 7007 0024 0338 1779 00
Name: Theo de Raadt
Address: Deutsche Bank, Marienplatz 21
80331 M?nchen, Germany


Bye, Marcus

> !DSPAM:565e47d1289635898012334!



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-02 Thread Romain FABBRI
I don't think it should be the contributors who should choose directly to who
the money is "attributed".
That being exactly the role of the foundation, in my opinion.

But maybe :
- the foundation could take into account the time given by each dev
- the devs could have their own votes in regards to the importance of each
others work (but not their own)
- contributors could "vote" for the efforts they appreciate most (the
choicelist is going to be hard to produce)...

These opinions/facts *could* be taken into account by the foundation...
But it might already be the case ?

PS :
>From now I'll stop buying the CD and convert this money into a little bigger
donation :)
Many thanks to Theo, and all the devs for their excellent work.

-Message d'origine-
De : owner-m...@openbsd.org [mailto:owner-m...@openbsd.org] De la part de
Michel Behr
Envoyé : mardi 1 décembre 2015 21:41
À : Theo de Raadt 
Cc : Kevin Chadwick ; OpenBSD ;
fundrais...@openbsdfoundation.org
Objet : Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

Just one more thing: for non-developers, if you think there's any sense in
this idea I just described, please, some "seconding" and/or additions would be
welcomed. Also some e-mails directed to fundrais...@openbsdfoundation.org
would be great in this regard too. (Again: OpenBSD developers should *NOT*
need to get involved in this discussion, this is between non-developers and
the OpenBSD foundation).

On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 6:18 PM, Michel Behr  wrote:

> As I understand, one of the reasons for the Foundation to avoid
> targeted contributions is to preserve the independence of the project
> - in the current model they are accountable for allocating the
> resources as they see fit. So IMHO there is value in that model for
> that regard. On the other hand, the fact that none of the donations is
> directed specifically to compensate for the hard work of the
> developers (and more specifically
> Theo's) gives the foundation the prerogative to, for example, have at
> the donation page one donation account separate, specific for
> developers, with a clear message that those resources would go
> directly to the developers (or to one developer...), in contrast with
> the "standard" donation channel, which funds only events,
> infrastructure, etc. It would a reasonable exception. I think if this
> done with the same transparency things have being managed so far, there's no
problem.
>
> And by the way, this suggestion is mine, not Theo's (and I'm far from
> being a developer!), so I'm cc'ing the foundations' e-mail address - I
> see this as matter of interest to the foundation because it touches
> directly their purpose of providing the administrative support for the
> project to keep it moving forward - e.g. providing a channel through
> the donations page for developers to receive direct contributions
> would permit them the flexibility to dedicate even more time to the
> project. It would also be one more "communication channel" for
> recognition to the developers high-quality code that's been produced over
the years.
>
> Anyway, just my $0.02... (I think this is a matter that's between the
> non-developers community and the OpenBSD Foundation, Theo and the
> other OpenBSD developers should not need to get involved on this
discussion).
>
> Kind regards,
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 4:35 PM, Theo de Raadt
> 
> wrote:
>
>> > > > Now to be clear Theo, are donation via the paypal on the
>> > > > donations
>> page
>> > > > are directly to you and you can do as you see fit, and/or only
>> checks
>> > > > would be best?
>> > >
>> > > Correct, as I see fit.  I try to use it for the Project for
>> > > things the Foundation doesn't fund.  I declared it that way on
>> > > the web site.  I have not used it much for my own needs.
>> >
>> > I'd guess this has been thought of and just throwing in lame ideas
>> > on the off chance it's of any use and maybe it's just extra site
>> > coding work and there are legal complications, if not then are the
>> > people in charge of the foundation website/operation privvy to this
>> > list? Is Bob part of that?
>> >
>> > 
>> > I wonder if it would gain any traction if there was a separate
>> > donation box and cheque address with a statement along the lines of
>> > The OpenBSD project leader works full time and receives no support
>> > from donations to the foundation. If you would like to also support
>> > The project leader directly then you can do so here or by sending a
cheque to.
>> >
>> > ___Made up example, Don't send here
>> >
>> > Theo De Raadt
>> > The OpenBSD project leader
>> > 8101 160 Street
>> > Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
>> > T5R 2G9
>> > ___
>> >
>> > Alternatively but perhaps more complex behind the scenes?.. a
>> > percentage box so everytime someone 

Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-02 Thread Donald Allen
On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 8:18 PM, Theo de Raadt  wrote:
>>"All I can do is buy the CD's and give some $ to the
>>foundation.  Any other suggestion is not productive."
>>
>>I don't think that quite covers it. Those of us who have the choice
>>can send checks or Paypal money directly to Theo, as described on the
>>Donations page. I think checks are preferable, because they eliminate
>>Paypal skimming its credit-card-like fees, at the cost of a stamp. The
>>CDs also involve paying a middle-man.
>
> Completely true.  Also it is a 20 minute walk each way to the bank,
> and keyboard folk need to do more walks.
>
>>Checks to Theo get the maximum amount of money to the place where it
>>will do the project the most good, which includes providing Theo with
>>the money he needs to continue doing what he's doing.
>
> On a personal "hate ramen noodles and tuna" level, I agree.
>
> But my good-for-project-good-for-the-world side says the OpenBSD
> Foundation is more effective at growing the contribution pie and
> in particular funding the hackathons where great work happens.

But if we lose the project leader due to lack of exercise and food,
that's not good for the project. You made it very clear in a previous
message to this thread that no Foundation money comes to you. So while
the Foundation may be doing good things with their money, we, the
community, need to be sure that you have what you need. And in the
unlikely event that the freeloader factor decreases and we send you
more than you need, couldn't you turn the excess over to the
Foundation?



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-01 Thread Marko Cupać
Personally, I don't have the resources to contribute any amount
of money. Unix admin's job here in Serbia is paid in high 4 figures :)
Yearly, that's right.

But I work for a company whose networking relies heavily on
OpenBSD. My boss, although not from FOSS world, understands the value
of good software, so I managed to persuade him to approve purchase of
CD set every release. He also understand software is free to use, and
sees CD set as 'suggested semi-annual contribution'. Buying something
physical such as CD keeps our purchase department happy. It would be
much harder, or even impossible, to explain a donation, as would
purchase of multiple CD sets.

Now, if you take into account that the company I work for pays hundreds
of euros per year to a Cisco partner just to be able to get bug fixes
for single router, I don't think my boss would object to buying CD set
even if it was double or triple the price.

Just my point of view.
--
Before enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.
After  enlightenment - chop wood, draw water.

Marko Cupać
https://www.mimar.rs/



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-01 Thread Adam Wolk
On Tue, 1 Dec 2015 18:41:24 -0200
Michel Behr  wrote:

> Just one more thing: for non-developers, if you think there's any
> sense in this idea I just described, please, some "seconding" and/or
> additions would be welcomed. Also some e-mails directed to
> fundrais...@openbsdfoundation.org would be great in this regard too.

Oh God. I don't think Bob and others in the foundation will be happy
getting their mailboxes spammed. I'm sure they read this mailing list
- +1 emails don't sound like a good idea to me.

> (Again: OpenBSD developers should *NOT* need to get involved in this
> discussion, this is between non-developers and the OpenBSD
> foundation).
> 

OpenBSD foundation consists of at least some developers :)

Regards,
Adam



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-01 Thread Donald Allen
"All I can do is buy the CD's and give some $ to the
foundation.  Any other suggestion is not productive."

I don't think that quite covers it. Those of us who have the choice
can send checks or Paypal money directly to Theo, as described on the
Donations page. I think checks are preferable, because they eliminate
Paypal skimming its credit-card-like fees, at the cost of a stamp. The
CDs also involve paying a middle-man. Checks to Theo get the maximum
amount of money to the place where it will do the project the most
good, which includes providing Theo with the money he needs to
continue doing what he's doing.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-01 Thread Michel Behr
As I understand, one of the reasons for the Foundation to avoid targeted
contributions is to preserve the independence of the project - in the
current model they are accountable for allocating the resources as they see
fit. So IMHO there is value in that model for that regard. On the other
hand, the fact that none of the donations is directed specifically to
compensate for the hard work of the developers (and more specifically
Theo's) gives the foundation the prerogative to, for example, have at the
donation page one donation account separate, specific for developers, with
a clear message that those resources would go directly to the developers
(or to one developer...), in contrast with the "standard" donation channel,
which funds only events, infrastructure, etc. It would a reasonable
exception. I think if this done with the same transparency things have
being managed so far, there's no problem.

And by the way, this suggestion is mine, not Theo's (and I'm far from being
a developer!), so I'm cc'ing the foundations' e-mail address - I see this
as matter of interest to the foundation because it touches directly their
purpose of providing the administrative support for the project to keep it
moving forward - e.g. providing a channel through the donations page for
developers to receive direct contributions would permit them the
flexibility to dedicate even more time to the project. It would also be one
more "communication channel" for recognition to the developers high-quality
code that's been produced over the years.

Anyway, just my $0.02... (I think this is a matter that's between the
non-developers community and the OpenBSD Foundation, Theo and the other
OpenBSD developers should not need to get involved on this discussion).

Kind regards,

On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 4:35 PM, Theo de Raadt 
wrote:

> > > > Now to be clear Theo, are donation via the paypal on the donations
> page
> > > > are directly to you and you can do as you see fit, and/or only checks
> > > > would be best?
> > >
> > > Correct, as I see fit.  I try to use it for the Project for things the
> > > Foundation doesn't fund.  I declared it that way on the web site.  I
> > > have not used it much for my own needs.
> >
> > I'd guess this has been thought of and just throwing in lame ideas
> > on the off chance it's of any use and maybe it's just extra site coding
> > work and there are legal complications, if not then are the people in
> > charge of the foundation website/operation privvy to this list? Is Bob
> > part of that?
> >
> > 
> > I wonder if it would gain any traction if there was a separate donation
> > box and cheque address with a statement along the lines of The OpenBSD
> > project leader works full time and receives no support from donations
> > to the foundation. If you would like to also support The project
> > leader directly then you can do so here or by sending a cheque to.
> >
> > ___Made up example, Don't send here
> >
> > Theo De Raadt
> > The OpenBSD project leader
> > 8101 160 Street
> > Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
> > T5R 2G9
> > ___
> >
> > Alternatively but perhaps more complex behind the scenes?.. a percentage
> > box so everytime someone makes a donation they can choose a percentage
> > of their donation to the foundation from 0%-?% that goes to support the
> > project leader.
> >
> > That way I guess the project leader could choose to waive it if the
> > foundation is ever in trouble financially should they wish so long as
> > the site foundation site discloses that possibility for legal reasons I
> > guess?
>
> We've heard numerous times that the OpenBSD Foundation avoids
> targetted contributions.  I don't think what you suggest is the
> right method of solving this (essentially, splitting a pie).



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-01 Thread Michel Behr
Just one more thing: for non-developers, if you think there's any sense in
this idea I just described, please, some "seconding" and/or additions would
be welcomed. Also some e-mails directed to fundrais...@openbsdfoundation.org
would be great in this regard too. (Again: OpenBSD developers should *NOT*
need to get involved in this discussion, this is between non-developers and
the OpenBSD foundation).

On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 6:18 PM, Michel Behr  wrote:

> As I understand, one of the reasons for the Foundation to avoid targeted
> contributions is to preserve the independence of the project - in the
> current model they are accountable for allocating the resources as they see
> fit. So IMHO there is value in that model for that regard. On the other
> hand, the fact that none of the donations is directed specifically to
> compensate for the hard work of the developers (and more specifically
> Theo's) gives the foundation the prerogative to, for example, have at the
> donation page one donation account separate, specific for developers, with
> a clear message that those resources would go directly to the developers
> (or to one developer...), in contrast with the "standard" donation channel,
> which funds only events, infrastructure, etc. It would a reasonable
> exception. I think if this done with the same transparency things have
> being managed so far, there's no problem.
>
> And by the way, this suggestion is mine, not Theo's (and I'm far from
> being a developer!), so I'm cc'ing the foundations' e-mail address - I see
> this as matter of interest to the foundation because it touches directly
> their purpose of providing the administrative support for the project to
> keep it moving forward - e.g. providing a channel through the donations
> page for developers to receive direct contributions would permit them the
> flexibility to dedicate even more time to the project. It would also be one
> more "communication channel" for recognition to the developers high-quality
> code that's been produced over the years.
>
> Anyway, just my $0.02... (I think this is a matter that's between the
> non-developers community and the OpenBSD Foundation, Theo and the other
> OpenBSD developers should not need to get involved on this discussion).
>
> Kind regards,
>
> On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 4:35 PM, Theo de Raadt 
> wrote:
>
>> > > > Now to be clear Theo, are donation via the paypal on the donations
>> page
>> > > > are directly to you and you can do as you see fit, and/or only
>> checks
>> > > > would be best?
>> > >
>> > > Correct, as I see fit.  I try to use it for the Project for things the
>> > > Foundation doesn't fund.  I declared it that way on the web site.  I
>> > > have not used it much for my own needs.
>> >
>> > I'd guess this has been thought of and just throwing in lame ideas
>> > on the off chance it's of any use and maybe it's just extra site coding
>> > work and there are legal complications, if not then are the people in
>> > charge of the foundation website/operation privvy to this list? Is Bob
>> > part of that?
>> >
>> > 
>> > I wonder if it would gain any traction if there was a separate donation
>> > box and cheque address with a statement along the lines of The OpenBSD
>> > project leader works full time and receives no support from donations
>> > to the foundation. If you would like to also support The project
>> > leader directly then you can do so here or by sending a cheque to.
>> >
>> > ___Made up example, Don't send here
>> >
>> > Theo De Raadt
>> > The OpenBSD project leader
>> > 8101 160 Street
>> > Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
>> > T5R 2G9
>> > ___
>> >
>> > Alternatively but perhaps more complex behind the scenes?.. a percentage
>> > box so everytime someone makes a donation they can choose a percentage
>> > of their donation to the foundation from 0%-?% that goes to support the
>> > project leader.
>> >
>> > That way I guess the project leader could choose to waive it if the
>> > foundation is ever in trouble financially should they wish so long as
>> > the site foundation site discloses that possibility for legal reasons I
>> > guess?
>>
>> We've heard numerous times that the OpenBSD Foundation avoids
>> targetted contributions.  I don't think what you suggest is the
>> right method of solving this (essentially, splitting a pie).



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-01 Thread Theo de Raadt
>"All I can do is buy the CD's and give some $ to the
>foundation.  Any other suggestion is not productive."
>
>I don't think that quite covers it. Those of us who have the choice
>can send checks or Paypal money directly to Theo, as described on the
>Donations page. I think checks are preferable, because they eliminate
>Paypal skimming its credit-card-like fees, at the cost of a stamp. The
>CDs also involve paying a middle-man.

Completely true.  Also it is a 20 minute walk each way to the bank,
and keyboard folk need to do more walks.

>Checks to Theo get the maximum amount of money to the place where it
>will do the project the most good, which includes providing Theo with
>the money he needs to continue doing what he's doing.

On a personal "hate ramen noodles and tuna" level, I agree.

But my good-for-project-good-for-the-world side says the OpenBSD
Foundation is more effective at growing the contribution pie and
in particular funding the hackathons where great work happens.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-01 Thread Kevin Chadwick
> > Now to be clear Theo, are donation via the paypal on the donations page
> > are directly to you and you can do as you see fit, and/or only checks
> > would be best?  
> 
> Correct, as I see fit.  I try to use it for the Project for things the
> Foundation doesn't fund.  I declared it that way on the web site.  I
> have not used it much for my own needs.

I'd guess this has been thought of and just throwing in lame ideas
on the off chance it's of any use and maybe it's just extra site coding
work and there are legal complications, if not then are the people in
charge of the foundation website/operation privvy to this list? Is Bob
part of that?


I wonder if it would gain any traction if there was a separate donation
box and cheque address with a statement along the lines of The OpenBSD
project leader works full time and receives no support from donations
to the foundation. If you would like to also support The project
leader directly then you can do so here or by sending a cheque to.

___Made up example, Don't send here

Theo De Raadt
The OpenBSD project leader
8101 160 Street
Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
T5R 2G9
___

Alternatively but perhaps more complex behind the scenes?.. a percentage
box so everytime someone makes a donation they can choose a percentage
of their donation to the foundation from 0%-?% that goes to support the
project leader.

That way I guess the project leader could choose to waive it if the
foundation is ever in trouble financially should they wish so long as
the site foundation site discloses that possibility for legal reasons I
guess?

-- 

KISSIS - Keep It Simple So It's Securable



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-01 Thread Theo de Raadt
> > > Now to be clear Theo, are donation via the paypal on the donations page
> > > are directly to you and you can do as you see fit, and/or only checks
> > > would be best?  
> > 
> > Correct, as I see fit.  I try to use it for the Project for things the
> > Foundation doesn't fund.  I declared it that way on the web site.  I
> > have not used it much for my own needs.
> 
> I'd guess this has been thought of and just throwing in lame ideas
> on the off chance it's of any use and maybe it's just extra site coding
> work and there are legal complications, if not then are the people in
> charge of the foundation website/operation privvy to this list? Is Bob
> part of that?
> 
> 
> I wonder if it would gain any traction if there was a separate donation
> box and cheque address with a statement along the lines of The OpenBSD
> project leader works full time and receives no support from donations
> to the foundation. If you would like to also support The project
> leader directly then you can do so here or by sending a cheque to.
> 
> ___Made up example, Don't send here
> 
> Theo De Raadt
> The OpenBSD project leader
> 8101 160 Street
> Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
> T5R 2G9
> ___
> 
> Alternatively but perhaps more complex behind the scenes?.. a percentage
> box so everytime someone makes a donation they can choose a percentage
> of their donation to the foundation from 0%-?% that goes to support the
> project leader.
> 
> That way I guess the project leader could choose to waive it if the
> foundation is ever in trouble financially should they wish so long as
> the site foundation site discloses that possibility for legal reasons I
> guess?

We've heard numerous times that the OpenBSD Foundation avoids
targetted contributions.  I don't think what you suggest is the
right method of solving this (essentially, splitting a pie).



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-01 Thread Gareth Nelson
Theo: like others in this thread I find it quite shocking and disappointing
how poorly you are doing financially from your hard work.

I apologise if this is too obvious a suggestion but if the foundation is
making a sufficient income is it not possible for you to draw a salary as
an employee?

As to the original topic, there are companies out there that will do USB
sticks, but it's probably simpler for end users to just download the
installer and stick it on a stick themselves.
On 1 Dec 2015 4:05 am, "Theo de Raadt"  wrote:

> > The good news if any, is that Gifts are tax free in Canada, so that part
> > is helpful and users should fell they get more out of their money freely
> > given as a gift.
> >
> > http://www.taxtips.ca/personaltax/giftsandinheritances.htm
>
> Correct, but be careful it will not be interpreted later as a non-gift.
>
> > Now to be clear Theo, are donation via the paypal on the donations page
> > are directly to you and you can do as you see fit, and/or only checks
> > would be best?
>
> Correct, as I see fit.  I try to use it for the Project for things the
> Foundation doesn't fund.  I declared it that way on the web site.  I
> have not used it much for my own needs.
>
> Please don't assume that a lot arrives in that account.  It seems most
> contributions are towards the OpenBSD Foundation.
>
> > I know that was discuss a few times on this list, just try to be clear
> > as it is now, and I can setup paypal and do recurring gifts to
> > compensate some for the sad CD sales reduction and if so, I sure would
> > encourage users to do the same so that you can continue to do what you
> > love and what we all benefit from obviously!
>
> Thanks.  I feel there have been too many attempts at rebooting this model
> every few years and it isn't going to work out long term.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-01 Thread Theo de Raadt
> Theo: like others in this thread I find it quite shocking and disappointing
> how poorly you are doing financially from your hard work.

Join the club :)

> I apologise if this is too obvious a suggestion but if the foundation is
> making a sufficient income is it not possible for you to draw a salary as
> an employee?

That is not my choice.  I think the Foundation is being wise.  The
relationship is that I keep them apprised of wants & needs the project
faces, and they fund those initiatives.  So take a look at their
report and books once they finish this year, to see if the money was
spent well, and where that leaves them.

I have not asked for their assistance, becuase I think they are making
the right decisions.

I don't know if there is enough left over a year to help me out.

I will not ask them.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-01 Thread Peter J. Philipp
On 12/01/15 10:20, Anthony Campbell wrote:
> On 30 Nov 2015, Bryan Vyhmeister wrote:
>> Let's not waste any more of Theo's time. USB sticks are not the magic
>> device that some seem to think. Some are not very reliable and prone to
>> failure. I've had very mixed results with budget USB sticks in
>> particular. Going with a more expensive USB stick like a major brand
>> name *usually* turns out better but that's still no guarantee. If you
>> don't want a CD set, simply donate the amount the CD set costs directly
>> to the project. That provides funding for OpenBSD while also not wasting
>> anyone's time.
>>
>> http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html
>>
>> Bryan
> As a UK resident, buying the CDs (which I don't need) would require me
> to pay VAT and delivery, neither of which (obviously) would benefit
> Theo. I therefore prefer to make a donation to the project.
>
>

I buy the CD's every time as I want to have a material reminder of every
release.  Thanks for pointing out the donation link it made me realize
that deraadt too takes paypal, so I don't need to shift to paypal'ing
the foundation, as I'm sick of doing bank transfers.

As far as the USB stick goes, I think it's a good idea, I'd buy it but
if it's too much effort and cost then don't worry about it.

-peter



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-12-01 Thread Anthony Campbell
On 30 Nov 2015, Bryan Vyhmeister wrote:
> Let's not waste any more of Theo's time. USB sticks are not the magic
> device that some seem to think. Some are not very reliable and prone to
> failure. I've had very mixed results with budget USB sticks in
> particular. Going with a more expensive USB stick like a major brand
> name *usually* turns out better but that's still no guarantee. If you
> don't want a CD set, simply donate the amount the CD set costs directly
> to the project. That provides funding for OpenBSD while also not wasting
> anyone's time.
> 
> http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html
> 
> Bryan

As a UK resident, buying the CDs (which I don't need) would require me
to pay VAT and delivery, neither of which (obviously) would benefit
Theo. I therefore prefer to make a donation to the project.


-- 
Anthony Campbellhttp://www.acampbell.uk



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread Tati Chevron

On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 08:31:54PM +, Stuart Henderson wrote:

On 2015-11-30, Tati Chevron  wrote:

in my case, a USB stick would be actually useful for installing machines
-- unlike the CD sets (I haven't had a working optical drive in the last
5+ years). Any chance for 5.9?


I would buy an official release on USB or preferably sd card, if it
was on offer. Presumably the production costs would be less as well.


Cloning CDs from a master is something that can be farmed out
relatively easily. Writing an image to USB/SD, not so much, especially
when you're going to want that to be done securely.


To be honest, my original thought was of a masked rom packaged in a USB or
SD card device, not somebody manually writing standard flash drives with
an image.  However, I totally agree now that I had a momentary lapse into
the surreal, posting without thinking, and irritated Theo.  Sorry for the
noise.


And who is going to trust this? There's a significantly higher bar
to invisibly tampering with a pressed and printed CD than a USB stick.


Again, the original idea wasn't mine.  I commented on the thread, but in
my mind, I imagined receiving the install source on a medium that had the
same bar to tampering as a CD, such as masked rom.  I wasn't thinking of
a standard USB flash device with a glued write-protect switch.  My original
post was a mixture of various thoughts that shouldn't really have been posted
without further consideration.

--
Tati Chevron
Perl and FORTRAN specialist.
SWABSIT development and migration department.
http://www.swabsit.com



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread Theo de Raadt
> Software development.  :D
> 
> More importantly, what can users do to make it easier for developers to
> write code? That is the important question to ask when a thought like this
> comes up.  Is it more efficient of developer time for me to purchase my own
> usb stick and deal with it myself, or request developers offer a usb
> alternative?

I don't know, but I'll think about it later, because I am busy.

I am spending my day making a non-writeable USB stick for the OP.

Your question is important, so I'll get back to it.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread Giancarlo Razzolini
Em 30-11-2015 19:34, Theo de Raadt escreveu:
> These days the CD revenue is about what a cashier at a store makes.

This is truly sad, to not say tragical.

>
> It seems to keep shrinking, but I will try to keep doing it unless it
> nears zero; at which point the artwork will stop also.
>
> I'm not doing any of this as a business.  I believe the research and
> development that happens within OpenBSD is very important.  That's why
> I continue doing this.

And I think that most people here is very thankful for this.

>
> I cannot help but be insulted to the core when random 'people on the
> internet' selfishly or unthinkingly misunderstand the focus of OpenBSD
> as a R project, and recommend an even more broken business plan
> which nobody needs or wants.  Frankly, it ruins my day.
>
> For the time, I am on a small bursary as well from some people who
> understand the importance, otherwise I'd be looking for a cashier job.

I really don't want to see this happen, but I'd imagine you wouldn't
stress yourself as much.

Keep the good work,
Giancarlo Razzolini



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread Petr Ročkai
Theo de Raadt  writes:
> I don't know, but I'll think about it later, because I am busy.
> I am spending my day making a non-writeable USB stick for the OP.

That's nice. Although a simple 'no' would have sufficed of course. I
have been told that buying CD sets is useful for the project, but I have
no use for CDs. That's all. Maybe I could get a poster instead...

-- 
id' Ash = Ash; id' Dust = Dust; id' _ = undefined



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread Theo de Raadt
> >>(Making them unconditionally read-only would be probably a good thing,
> >>too.)
> >
> > This, too, I see a value in.
> 
> And who is going to trust this? There's a significantly higher bar
> to invisibly tampering with a pressed and printed CD than a USB stick.
> (Also it kind-of makes the previous request an impossibility...)

It looks like entitlement.com makes a cheap USB stick with write-protection.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread Giancarlo Razzolini
Em 30-11-2015 19:03, Tati Chevron escreveu:
> Again, the original idea wasn't mine.  I commented on the thread, but in
> my mind, I imagined receiving the install source on a medium that had the
> same bar to tampering as a CD, such as masked rom.  I wasn't thinking of
> a standard USB flash device with a glued write-protect switch.  My
> original
> post was a mixture of various thoughts that shouldn't really have been
> posted
> without further consideration. 
I don't know if most people are aware of this, but this has been
discussed on this list many times. The income of CD sales are what "kind
of" pays for Theo full time involvement with OpenBSD. I say "kind of"
because sales, as he already mentioned, are going down and down each
release. Don't have a CD reader on the machine? Buy them anyway and opt
out of the delivery. You can download the iso from the internet, safely
verify them and write your own USB stick with it. And Theo gets pay for
the wonderful job he (and others of course) do with OpenBSD.

Cheers,
Giancarlo Razzolini



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread Theo de Raadt
> >> I would buy an official release on USB or preferably sd card, if it
> >> was on offer. Presumably the production costs would be less as well.
> >
> >Cloning CDs from a master is something that can be farmed out
> >relatively easily. Writing an image to USB/SD, not so much, especially
> >when you're going to want that to be done securely.
> 
> To be honest, my original thought was of a masked rom packaged in a USB or
> SD card device, not somebody manually writing standard flash drives with
> an image.  However, I totally agree now that I had a momentary lapse into
> the surreal, posting without thinking, and irritated Theo.  Sorry for the
> noise.

I've looked into this a bit before.  The setup cost is above $50,000
per release.

I wonder why we don't see piles of masked rom USB sticks from other
sources

But anyways I'll send you a private mail describing the part you can
play in this as a 50% stakeholder, and the amount you can expect to
lose every release.  (I am assuming the OP is the other stakeholder; I
am already making insufficient income off my labour every release and
am not willing to dig myself a deeper hole, so I cannot participate).

> Again, the original idea wasn't mine.  I commented on the thread, but in
> my mind, I imagined receiving the install source on a medium that had the
> same bar to tampering as a CD, such as masked rom.  I wasn't thinking of
> a standard USB flash device with a glued write-protect switch.  My original
> post was a mixture of various thoughts that shouldn't really have been posted
> without further consideration.

So the original idea wasn't yours.  And now you think it can't work.
And you are still talking about it.  I see.  Very interesting.

This email thing is fascinating.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread Theo de Raadt
> Em 30-11-2015 19:03, Tati Chevron escreveu:
> > Again, the original idea wasn't mine.  I commented on the thread, but in
> > my mind, I imagined receiving the install source on a medium that had the
> > same bar to tampering as a CD, such as masked rom.  I wasn't thinking of
> > a standard USB flash device with a glued write-protect switch.  My
> > original
> > post was a mixture of various thoughts that shouldn't really have been
> > posted
> > without further consideration. 
> I don't know if most people are aware of this, but this has been
> discussed on this list many times. The income of CD sales are what "kind
> of" pays for Theo full time involvement with OpenBSD. I say "kind of"
> because sales, as he already mentioned, are going down and down each
> release.

These days the CD revenue is about what a cashier at a store makes.

It seems to keep shrinking, but I will try to keep doing it unless it
nears zero; at which point the artwork will stop also.

I'm not doing any of this as a business.  I believe the research and
development that happens within OpenBSD is very important.  That's why
I continue doing this.

I cannot help but be insulted to the core when random 'people on the
internet' selfishly or unthinkingly misunderstand the focus of OpenBSD
as a R project, and recommend an even more broken business plan
which nobody needs or wants.  Frankly, it ruins my day.

For the time, I am on a small bursary as well from some people who
understand the importance, otherwise I'd be looking for a cashier job.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread Devin Reade

I suspect the answer is that this falls into the category of too
expensive/distracting to bother, based on the overall benefit.

I find that having a DVD reader/writer in an external USB-connected
enclosure works well for optical-diskless machines.

Devin



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread Tati Chevron

in my case, a USB stick would be actually useful for installing machines
-- unlike the CD sets (I haven't had a working optical drive in the last
5+ years). Any chance for 5.9?


I would buy an official release on USB or preferably sd card, if it was on 
offer.  Presumably the production costs would be less as well.

(And also..  not liking to complain, but the last two CD releases have had 
irritating bugs in them.  Disc 2 of 5.7 was fubar, and had to be replaced, and 
the source tree on 5.8 wasn't correct either.  At least on flash memory, 
problems could be cheaply and easily corrected at the last minute ;-) )

Our machines do generally have optical drives, but for some reason, blu-ray 
readers reading CDs seem to do so painfully slowly.


(Making them unconditionally read-only would be probably a good thing,
too.)


This, too, I see a value in.

Also, on a related note, would anybody be interested in having the source code 
for the freely distributable parts of the ports tree available on BD-R?  It 
just about fits on a single layer disc and is very convenient when you're a 
long way from a fast internet connection...

--
Tati Chevron
Perl and FORTRAN specialist.
SWABSIT development and migration department.
http://www.swabsit.com



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread Theo de Raadt
> I would buy an official release on USB or preferably sd card, if it
> was on offer.  Presumably the production costs would be less as well.

 ^

How do you figure that?

We put everything on the internet.  Thousands upon thousands upon
thousands of downloads happen, and the more convenient it becomes the
fewer sales occur.  That is the nature of the situation.  USB devices
will be the same, except you cannot farm out "writing them" to just
anyone.

Production costs are not the problem.  The problem is that there
is ZERO RETURN on the effort taken.

I thank the crowd for once again suggesting we (me? people I know?)
should spend time on doing something which a very small handful of
people want.

I was going to work on some source code today, but I'll get right on
this task, pricing out USB sticks and trying to find a way to make
this work.  /sarc

> (And also..  not liking to complain, but the last two CD releases
> have had irritating bugs in them.  Disc 2 of 5.7 was fubar, and had to
> be replaced, and the source tree on 5.8 wasn't correct either.  At
> least on flash memory, problems could be cheaply and easily corrected
> at the last minute ;-) )

So you have a solution already.  But still, I should invest my time
at finding a good USB stick, oh it should have a write protect switch
that actually works, oh we need to use epoxy to glue it, oh and people
who will write each of them, and god help us if the usb sticks are bad
and have `irritating bugs'.  Come on people.  What do you want us to do?

Product manufacture, or software development?

Make up your mind.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread J Sisson
Software development.  :D

More importantly, what can users do to make it easier for developers to
write code? That is the important question to ask when a thought like this
comes up.  Is it more efficient of developer time for me to purchase my own
usb stick and deal with it myself, or request developers offer a usb
alternative?
On Nov 30, 2015 12:17 PM, "Theo de Raadt"  wrote:

> > I would buy an official release on USB or preferably sd card, if it
> > was on offer.  Presumably the production costs would be less as well.
>
>  ^
>
> How do you figure that?
>
> We put everything on the internet.  Thousands upon thousands upon
> thousands of downloads happen, and the more convenient it becomes the
> fewer sales occur.  That is the nature of the situation.  USB devices
> will be the same, except you cannot farm out "writing them" to just
> anyone.
>
> Production costs are not the problem.  The problem is that there
> is ZERO RETURN on the effort taken.
>
> I thank the crowd for once again suggesting we (me? people I know?)
> should spend time on doing something which a very small handful of
> people want.
>
> I was going to work on some source code today, but I'll get right on
> this task, pricing out USB sticks and trying to find a way to make
> this work.  /sarc
>
> > (And also..  not liking to complain, but the last two CD releases
> > have had irritating bugs in them.  Disc 2 of 5.7 was fubar, and had to
> > be replaced, and the source tree on 5.8 wasn't correct either.  At
> > least on flash memory, problems could be cheaply and easily corrected
> > at the last minute ;-) )
>
> So you have a solution already.  But still, I should invest my time
> at finding a good USB stick, oh it should have a write protect switch
> that actually works, oh we need to use epoxy to glue it, oh and people
> who will write each of them, and god help us if the usb sticks are bad
> and have `irritating bugs'.  Come on people.  What do you want us to do?
>
> Product manufacture, or software development?
>
> Make up your mind.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread Stuart Henderson
On 2015-11-30, Tati Chevron  wrote:
>>in my case, a USB stick would be actually useful for installing machines
>>-- unlike the CD sets (I haven't had a working optical drive in the last
>>5+ years). Any chance for 5.9?
>
> I would buy an official release on USB or preferably sd card, if it
> was on offer. Presumably the production costs would be less as well.

Cloning CDs from a master is something that can be farmed out
relatively easily. Writing an image to USB/SD, not so much, especially
when you're going to want that to be done securely.

> (And also.. not liking to complain, but the last two CD releases have
> had irritating bugs in them. Disc 2 of 5.7 was fubar, and had to be
> replaced, and the source tree on 5.8 wasn't correct either. At least on
> flash memory, problems could be cheaply and easily corrected at the last
> minute ;-) )

Who is going to update these? Especially at short notice.

>>(Making them unconditionally read-only would be probably a good thing,
>>too.)
>
> This, too, I see a value in.

And who is going to trust this? There's a significantly higher bar
to invisibly tampering with a pressed and printed CD than a USB stick.
(Also it kind-of makes the previous request an impossibility...)



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread Daniel Ouellet
On 11/30/15 8:43 PM, Theo de Raadt wrote:
>> On Nov 30, 2015, at 2:34 PM, Theo de Raadt  wrote:
>>>
>>> These days the CD revenue is about what a cashier at a store makes.
> 
> Uncertain of the veracity of this site,
> 
> http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Cashier/Hourly_Rate/725daaa6/Entry-Level-Calgary-AB
> 
> I was wrong.  the CD revenue is far less.  The cashier makes more.

Sorry to read that!

Got every CD from when I started, only missing 2.1, 2.2 and 2.4 on my
self. And a few copy of the same are there too and given to friends.

The good news if any, is that Gifts are tax free in Canada, so that part
is helpful and users should fell they get more out of their money freely
given as a gift.

http://www.taxtips.ca/personaltax/giftsandinheritances.htm

Now to be clear Theo, are donation via the paypal on the donations page
are directly to you and you can do as you see fit, and/or only checks
would be best?

I know that was discuss a few times on this list, just try to be clear
as it is now, and I can setup paypal and do recurring gifts to
compensate some for the sad CD sales reduction and if so, I sure would
encourage users to do the same so that you can continue to do what you
love and what we all benefit from obviously!

I know first hand that most of the time work of love is not always well
paid!

Last thing I want to see is you loose your Love and Passion for my
favorite OS that even pass to my sons and one see why and start to be a
big advocate of it as well.

Nice to see family traditions be pass around like this, so I want to
make sure this continue so that may be my grand son will use it too! (:>

I know I will tell in him/here the old days, that's what grandpa used! (:>

Daniel



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread Christoph R. Murauer
>> Em 30-11-2015 19:03, Tati Chevron escreveu:
>> > Again, the original idea wasn't mine.  I commented on the thread,
>> but in
>> > my mind, I imagined receiving the install source on a medium that
>> had the
>> > same bar to tampering as a CD, such as masked rom.  I wasn't
>> thinking of
>> > a standard USB flash device with a glued write-protect switch.  My
>> > original
>> > post was a mixture of various thoughts that shouldn't really have
>> been
>> > posted
>> > without further consideration.
>> I don't know if most people are aware of this, but this has been
>> discussed on this list many times. The income of CD sales are what
>> "kind
>> of" pays for Theo full time involvement with OpenBSD. I say "kind
>> of"
>> because sales, as he already mentioned, are going down and down each
>> release.
>
> These days the CD revenue is about what a cashier at a store makes.
>
> It seems to keep shrinking, but I will try to keep doing it unless it
> nears zero; at which point the artwork will stop also.
>
> I'm not doing any of this as a business.  I believe the research and
> development that happens within OpenBSD is very important.  That's why
> I continue doing this.
>
> I cannot help but be insulted to the core when random 'people on the
> internet' selfishly or unthinkingly misunderstand the focus of OpenBSD
> as a R project, and recommend an even more broken business plan
> which nobody needs or wants.  Frankly, it ruins my day.

As more as I read, as more I understand you.

> For the time, I am on a small bursary as well from some people who
> understand the importance, otherwise I'd be looking for a cashier job.

Please, continue it for the people which understand it or, which are
interested in it. Thanks.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread Bryan Vyhmeister
Let's not waste any more of Theo's time. USB sticks are not the magic
device that some seem to think. Some are not very reliable and prone to
failure. I've had very mixed results with budget USB sticks in
particular. Going with a more expensive USB stick like a major brand
name *usually* turns out better but that's still no guarantee. If you
don't want a CD set, simply donate the amount the CD set costs directly
to the project. That provides funding for OpenBSD while also not wasting
anyone's time.

http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html

Bryan



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread worik
On 01/12/15 10:40, Petr Ročkai wrote:
> Theo de Raadt  writes:
>> I don't know, but I'll think about it later, because I am busy.
>> I am spending my day making a non-writeable USB stick for the OP.
> That's nice. Although a simple 'no' would have sufficed of course. I
> have been told that buying CD sets is useful for the project, but I have
> no use for CDs. That's all. Maybe I could get a poster instead...
>

Wasting breath. 

Last time I tried the CD shop took money for not sending a CD.

CDs are a  waste of time for me too.  Not quite useless, but close.

But expressing other ideas here is a waste of breath. 

W

-- 
Why is the legal status of chardonnay different to that of cannabis? 
  r...@worik.org 021-1680650, (03) 4821804
  Aotearoa (New Zealand)
 I voted for love



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread Balázs Nagy
On Nov 30, 2015, at 2:34 PM, Theo de Raadt  wrote:
>
> These days the CD revenue is about what a cashier at a store makes.


I'm sick to my stomack when I read this.  I won't get into how unjust, unfair,
unethical this situation is, we all know that life is unfair.  We also all
know that Theo could have a high six figure, probably even seven figure salary
if he chose to. I don't think the issue is what new technology to deliver the
CD sets on.  I think the question is how to deliver Theo a recurring revenue
so that he gets to draw a salary that is at least somewhat commensurate with
his contribution to the IT industry. Just like a lot of us do recurring
contributions to the OpenBSD Foundation, we need to find a way to provide Theo
directly as well. Am I beeing too naive, am I missing somthing here?

Kind Regards,

Balázs



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread Bryan Vyhmeister
On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 06:20:02PM -0700, Bal??zs Nagy wrote:
> On Nov 30, 2015, at 2:34 PM, Theo de Raadt  wrote:
> >
> > These days the CD revenue is about what a cashier at a store makes.
> 
> I'm sick to my stomack when I read this. I won't get into how unjust,
> unfair, unethical this situation is, we all know that life is unfair.
> We also all know that Theo could have a high six figure, probably even
> seven figure salary if he chose to. I don't think the issue is what
> new technology to deliver the CD sets on. I think the question is how
> to deliver Theo a recurring revenue so that he gets to draw a salary
> that is at least somewhat commensurate with his contribution to the IT
> industry. Just like a lot of us do recurring contributions to the
> OpenBSD Foundation, we need to find a way to provide Theo directly as
> well. Am I beeing too naive, am I missing somthing here?

I agree completely. This is the core issue we need to look at and find
solutions to.

Bryan



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread Theo de Raadt
> On Nov 30, 2015, at 2:34 PM, Theo de Raadt  wrote:
> >
> > These days the CD revenue is about what a cashier at a store makes.

Uncertain of the veracity of this site,

http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Job=Cashier/Hourly_Rate/725daaa6/Entry-Level-Calgary-AB

I was wrong.  the CD revenue is far less.  The cashier makes more.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread Giancarlo Razzolini
Em 30-11-2015 20:10, Bryan Vyhmeister escreveu:
> Let's not waste any more of Theo's time. USB sticks are not the magic
> device that some seem to think. Some are not very reliable and prone to
> failure. I've had very mixed results with budget USB sticks in
> particular. Going with a more expensive USB stick like a major brand
> name *usually* turns out better but that's still no guarantee. If you
> don't want a CD set, simply donate the amount the CD set costs directly
> to the project. That provides funding for OpenBSD while also not wasting
> anyone's time.
>
> http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html
Let's just be clear that the CD's revenue (or non-revenue as it seems)
goes straight to Theo. Donations do the OpenBSD foundation doesn't, at
least not directly. So, in order to help him directly, buy the CD's but
do not get them delivery. That way Theo saves the shipping, and you
contribute directly to him. Which, isn't different from contributing to
OpenBSD.

Cheers,
Giancarlo Razzolini



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread Theo de Raadt
> Em 30-11-2015 20:10, Bryan Vyhmeister escreveu:
> > Let's not waste any more of Theo's time. USB sticks are not the magic
> > device that some seem to think. Some are not very reliable and prone to
> > failure. I've had very mixed results with budget USB sticks in
> > particular. Going with a more expensive USB stick like a major brand
> > name *usually* turns out better but that's still no guarantee. If you
> > don't want a CD set, simply donate the amount the CD set costs directly
> > to the project. That provides funding for OpenBSD while also not wasting
> > anyone's time.
> >
> > http://www.openbsd.org/donations.html
> Let's just be clear that the CD's revenue (or non-revenue as it seems)
> goes straight to Theo.

[...]

> Donations do the OpenBSD foundation doesn't, at least not directly.

That statement is full of potential for misunderstanding, and cannot
be left alone.

Let me correct that for you: Donations to the OpenBSD Foundation do
NOT COME TO ME AT ALL, neither directly nor indirectly.

As has been said many times before, the OpenBSD Foundation is
independent, and transparently publishes what they spend their money
on in their annual report.  You can go read their report, and notice
contributions to the OpenBSD Foundation do not provide me with any
income OF ANY SORT.

A lot of people decided they didn't trust the OpenBSD Project as it
was, or at least they would not fund it.  They didn't trust me alone
doing what I was doing since since oh when I was 24 or so.  They
insisted that a Foundation had to be created to handle funding.  So it
got created, and almost all donations head that way because it is most
effective for the good of the project.  That is fine and good, great
things happen as a result.  It has allowed the productivity of
hackathons to continue.

But that model does not help me.  Please don't give out the impression
that it does.  The dwindling effectiveness of the CD sales support
model is a bit of a worry.

I am a one-trick pony; most of you are happy with my trick, so please
don't start a fresh conversation asking me to develop more tricks.

Maybe I said too much; but I hope I have been crystal clear.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread Giancarlo Razzolini
Em 30-11-2015 21:56, Theo de Raadt escreveu:
> But that model does not help me.  Please don't give out the impression
> that it does.  The dwindling effectiveness of the CD sales support
> model is a bit of a worry.
Sorry for creating that impression. It surely wasn't my intention. Now
you made it even more clear how things operate.

Cheers,
Giancarlo Razzolini



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread Theo de Raadt
> The good news if any, is that Gifts are tax free in Canada, so that part
> is helpful and users should fell they get more out of their money freely
> given as a gift.
> 
> http://www.taxtips.ca/personaltax/giftsandinheritances.htm

Correct, but be careful it will not be interpreted later as a non-gift.

> Now to be clear Theo, are donation via the paypal on the donations page
> are directly to you and you can do as you see fit, and/or only checks
> would be best?

Correct, as I see fit.  I try to use it for the Project for things the
Foundation doesn't fund.  I declared it that way on the web site.  I
have not used it much for my own needs.

Please don't assume that a lot arrives in that account.  It seems most
contributions are towards the OpenBSD Foundation.

> I know that was discuss a few times on this list, just try to be clear
> as it is now, and I can setup paypal and do recurring gifts to
> compensate some for the sad CD sales reduction and if so, I sure would
> encourage users to do the same so that you can continue to do what you
> love and what we all benefit from obviously!

Thanks.  I feel there have been too many attempts at rebooting this model
every few years and it isn't going to work out long term.



Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

2015-11-30 Thread Richard Thornton
The reality is obvious - most users of open source are pure unadulterated free
loaders.  Nobody pays but we all use it.  
That includes very large corporations as well.  Torvalds solved it the old
fashioned way;  he is an employee of his own foundation.  McKusick sells
training videos.  All I can do is buy the CD's and give some $ to the
foundation.  Any other suggestion is not productive.


  Original Message  
From: Bryan Vyhmeister
Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 10:36 PM
To: Bal??zs Nagy
Cc: Theo de Raadt; grazzol...@gmail.com; Tati Chevron; Stuart Henderson;
misc@openbsd.org
Subject: Re: A branded USB stick as an alternative to the CD set?

On Mon, Nov 30, 2015 at 06:20:02PM -0700, Bal??zs Nagy wrote:
> On Nov 30, 2015, at 2:34 PM, Theo de Raadt  wrote:
> >
> > These days the CD revenue is about what a cashier at a store makes.
>
> I'm sick to my stomack when I read this. I won't get into how unjust,
> unfair, unethical this situation is, we all know that life is unfair.
> We also all know that Theo could have a high six figure, probably even
> seven figure salary if he chose to. I don't think the issue is what
> new technology to deliver the CD sets on. I think the question is how
> to deliver Theo a recurring revenue so that he gets to draw a salary
> that is at least somewhat commensurate with his contribution to the IT
> industry. Just like a lot of us do recurring contributions to the
> OpenBSD Foundation, we need to find a way to provide Theo directly as
> well. Am I beeing too naive, am I missing somthing here?

I agree completely. This is the core issue we need to look at and find
solutions to.

Bryan