Andre,
I wrote:
The static world is not an illusion, the static world is like an illusion.
All conditioned dharmas
Are like dreams, illusions, bubbles, shadows,
Like dew drops and a lightning flash.
Contemplate them thus.
(The Diamond Sutra)
Andre
Andre,
As a pattern...
Let X = atomic bombs that dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki
Pattern-X is opposite-from-all-that-is-non-X
Marsha
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Marsha valkyr said to Andre:
The static world is not an illusion, the static world is like an illusion.
...All conceptions and mental images that atomic bombs that dropped on
Hiroshima and Nagasaki might signify are a counterfeit of the actual event.
It is in this understanding that I say
Marsha to dmb Andre:
The purpose of mystic meditation is not to remove oneself from
experience but to bring one's self closer to it by eliminating stale,
confusing, static, intellectual attachments of the past. (LILA, Chapter 9)
I have no direct experience of the atomic bombs that dropped
Andre,
Marsha:
Sorry, but I cannot follow your reasoning and have little interest in your
personal opinion.
I wrote:
The static world is not an illusion, the static world is like an illusion.
All conditioned dharmas
Are like dreams, illusions, bubbles, shadows,
Like dew
Hi Andre,
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone! There were no takers!
DQ/SQ Metaphysics are not a precisely flowing discipline. Analogy and
metaphor, when acknowledged, are useful to help portray indefinable DQ.
IMHO Joe
On 10/17/13 10:32 AM, Andre andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote:
Joe to Andre:
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!
Andre:
So you Joe, support Marsha in her denial of human extermination and
atrocities committed over the years in favor of her vipassana findings
(which are hypothetical and incomplete)?
Let me go to your 'exalted' level: The one
Marsha to Andre and dmb:
The static world is not an illusion, the static world is like an
illusion. ...All conceptions and mental images that atomic bombs that
dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki might signify are a counterfeit of
the actual event. It is in this understanding that I say it is
Hi Andre and All,
IMHO your acceptance of 'flowing discipline' to help uncover and follow
indefinable DQ is vague. It seems to accept movement not existence as the
arbiter of reality. DQ follows DQ?
Discipline embraces DQ/SQ. Portraying a flowing static SQ reality begs
definition. Flowing DQ
dmb Andre,
The purpose of mystic meditation is not to remove oneself from experience but
to bring one's self closer to it by eliminating stale, confusing, static,
intellectual attachments of the past.
(LILA, Chapter 9)
Marsha
On Oct 15, 2013, at 3:16 PM, Andre Broersen
dmb Andre,
I have no direct experience of the atomic bombs that dropped on Hiroshima and
Nagasaki. Tell me what you know of the atomic bombs that dropped on Hiroshima
and Nagasaki and how you know it?
Marsha
On Oct 16, 2013, at 2:11 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote:
dmb Andre,
Andre to Marsha:
I was using the terminology because you are using similar expressions. I did
this in an effort to understand, with clarity, your position. Now you are using
this against my sought after clarification of your position. You refuse to
commit yourself yet again. This is yet
Andre,
On Oct 15, 2013, at 1:55 PM, Andre Broersen wrote:
Andre to Marsha:
I was using the terminology because you are using similar expressions. I did
this in an effort to understand, with clarity, your position. Now you are
using this against my sought after clarification of your
Andre said to Marsha:
...To be more precise, I do not see why you fail to answer this question by
appealing to the 'conditioned' status of phenomena in this world which, in my
book simply means co-dependent arising.You may bring up the 'illusory'
aspect when phenomena are considered
dmb:
And that is why, I suppose, Andre posed the question the way he did. Marsha's assertions about the static
world being like an illusion should raise moral objections, I think, and it totally makes sense
that Andre would frame his question with the use of atomic weapons and the holocaust.
Andre:
Do you believe that the atomic bombs that dropped on Hiroshima and
Nagasaki were illusory?
Marsha:
They were/are as conventionally real, as real as rocks and trees.
Andre:
I am not familiar with Pirsig's use of the 'conventionally real' phrase
in the MoQ. Basically the MoQ consists of
Andre,
On Oct 14, 2013, at 1:08 PM, Andre Broersen wrote:
Marsha to Andre:
The static world is not an illusion, the static world is like an illusion.
All conditioned dharmas
Are like dreams, illusions, bubbles, shadows,
Like dew drops and a lightning flash.
DQ/SQ metaphysics! S/O metaphysics! I experience the indefinable! I can
discuss an indefinable in terms of existence. What can it possibly mean to
experience an indefinable? Evolution holds the key, this indefinable/that
definable, the other thing metaphysics.
Joe
On 10/12/13 2:23 AM,
Hi Joe,
On Oct 14, 2013, at 2:23 PM, Joseph Maurer wrote:
DQ/SQ metaphysics! S/O metaphysics! I experience the indefinable! I can
discuss an indefinable in terms of existence. What can it possibly mean to
experience an indefinable?
Marsha:
Turn off the projector and be aware of
Marsha to Andre:
Change the term from 'conventional' to the term 'conditional', and see
if that helps. Have you read the MoQ Textbook?
Andre:
Ah, you're in the Lucy mode again: my question still stands:
'Do you believe that the atomic bombs that dropped on Hiroshima and
Nagasaki were
Andre,
On Oct 14, 2013, at 3:23 PM, Andre Broersen andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote:
Marsha to Andre:
Change the term from 'conventional' to the term 'conditional', and see if
that helps. Have you read the MoQ Textbook?
Andre:
Ah, you're in the Lucy mode again: my question still stands:
Hi MarshaV and All,
In metaphysics an indefinable is a turn off. A definable is a turn on. And
here we go round the mulberry bush.
Joe
On 10/14/13 11:37 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote:
Hi Joe,
On Oct 14, 2013, at 2:23 PM, Joseph Maurer wrote:
DQ/SQ metaphysics! S/O
Marsha said to Andre:
The static world is not an illusion, the static world is like an illusion. They
[the atomic bombs that dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki] were/are as
conventionally real, as real as rocks and trees.
Andre said to Marsha:
Ah, you're in the Lucy mode again: my question
Marsha to Andre:
Since you are not a mind-reader, those labels are merely a projection
coming from your own mind.
Andre:
Not really. They arise from reading your throw away comments in your
posts. Are we not suppose to use words and sentences as creatively as we
can, even going so far as
Andre,
The static world is not an illusion, the static world is like an illusion.
Marsha
On Oct 13, 2013, at 4:52 AM, Andre Broersen andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote:
Marsha to Andre:
Since you are not a mind-reader, those labels are merely a projection coming
from your own mind.
Andre,
The static world is not an illusion, the static world is like an illusion.
All conditioned dharmas
Are like dreams, illusions, bubbles, shadows,
Like dew drops and a lightning flash.
Contemplate them thus.
(The Diamond Sutra)
dmb,
I am sticking to the term Dynamic Quality.
On Oct 12, 2013, at 12:35 PM, david buchanan wrote:
Nobody, except Marsha maybe, thinks pure experience is devoid of content.
And yes, I think Dynamic Quality is devoid of content.
RMP:
... my statement that Dynamic Quality is always
Marsha to Andre:
The static world is not an illusion, the static world is like an illusion.
Andre:
Do you believe that the atomic bombs that dropped on Hiroshima and
Nagasaki were illusory?
Moq_Discuss mailing list
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On Oct 13, 2013, at 2:47 PM, Andre Broersen wrote:
Marsha to Andre:
The static world is not an illusion, the static world is like an illusion.
Andre:
Do you believe that the atomic bombs that dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki
were illusory?
Andre,
The static world is not an illusion,
Marshan to Andre:
The static world is not an illusion, the static world is like an illusion.
Andre to Marshan:
Do you believe that the atomic bombs that dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki
were illusory?
dmb says:
In what sense is the static world like an illusion? How can Marsha's
Marsha to Andre:
The static world is not an illusion, the static world is like an illusion.
Andre:
Do you believe that the atomic bombs that dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki
were illusory?
Marsha's answer:
The static world is not an illusion, the static world is like an illusion.
Andre:
Just
On Oct 13, 2013, at 3:19 PM, Andre Broersen wrote:
Marsha to Andre:
The static world is not an illusion, the static world is like an illusion.
All conditioned dharmas
Are like dreams, illusions, bubbles, shadows,
Like dew drops and a lightning flash.
Andre,
Sorry for the over-the-limit corrections. It's the end of a long day with my
grandson, yet he wants to play football with me playing the ball. Such a
cutie!
On Oct 13, 2013, at 3:19 PM, Andre Broersen wrote:
Marsha to Andre:
The static world is not an illusion, the static
Hi Joe,
Thought the question was concerning your indefinable emotions.
Marsha
On Oct 11, 2013, at 2:08 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote:
Hi MarshaV and all,
IMHO neutral experience comes before the attraction repulsion mandate.
Evolution is neutral following reality for
Andre,
Are you trying to articulate between one interested in self liberation and one
on the Bodhisattva path, because I am a mere student, have never claimed
otherwise, and have no idea of your high-minded complaints.
Marsha
On Oct 10, 2013, at 6:16 AM, Andre Broersen wrote:
Andre to Marsha:
That's not the point Marsha and you know it. I am not making the claims you
make!
When you are constantly trying to undermine the MoQ by appeals to vipassana
experiences, seeing bits and pieces of your self floating by, living in the now
and repeating again and again that all
Andre,
On Oct 12, 2013, at 1:32 PM, Andre Broersen wrote:
Andre to Marsha:
That's not the point Marsha and you know it. I am not making the claims you
make!
When you are constantly trying to undermine the MoQ by appeals to vipassana
experiences, seeing bits and pieces of your self
Marsha to Andre:
Are you trying to articulate between one interested in self liberation
and one on the Bodhisattva path, because I am a mere student, have never
claimed otherwise, and have no idea of your high-minded complaints.
Andre:
The first part of you response is silly and unfounded.
Marsha to Andre:
You have no skill for mind reading, and I have no interest in
deciphering you nonsensical opinions.
Andre:
Another typical Lucy response. I do not read minds and of course it is
al opinionated...christ where did I hear that before???
You are a fake my dear. The patterns you
Andre,
You can label me Lucy, or a fake, or a troll, or a vomiting person, it matters
little. You can lament sadness until the cows come home, but it matters
little. Since you are not a mind-reader, those labels are merely a projection
coming from your own mind.
Marsha
On Oct 12,
Hi MarshaV and all,
IMHO neutral experience comes before the attraction repulsion mandate.
Evolution is neutral following reality for definition. Choice (free will)
harbors attraction and repulsion. DQ/SQ is the foundation for choice prior
to attraction and repulsion. Intelligence matters.
Marsha had written:
In mindful awareness one drops the narration (language) function for a more
perceptual (immediate) experience, but there is still pattern identification in
differentiating shapes, smells, sounds, tastes and touch. The differentiating
is there with perceiving too. Sans
Marsha to Andre:
Andre, whose guns do you stick to?
Andre:
That's not the point Marsha and you know it. I am not making the claims
you make!
When you are constantly trying to undermine the MoQ by appeals to
vipassana experiences, seeing bits and pieces of your self floating by,
living in the
Hi MarshaV and All,
I do not know what you mean by not knowable? Are indefinable emotions
knowable?
Joe
On 10/9/13 3:34 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote:
not patterned, not divisible, not knowable, not definable, not bounded, not
differentiated.
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo,
Hi Joe,
Do you mean attraction and repulsion, or something else?
Marsha
On Oct 10, 2013, at 2:25 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote:
Hi MarshaV and All,
I do not know what you mean by not knowable? Are indefinable emotions
knowable?
Joe
On 10/9/13 3:34 PM,
This article even makes use of a rock as an example
Quoted from The Journal of Transpersonal Psychology, 2003, Vol. 35, No. 2
Suzuki, for his part, immediately saw the connection between James’s pure ex-
perience and Zen, and introduced James’s writings to his teacher Kitaro
Nishida.
dmb says: No, I think patterns and concepts are one and the same. And I believe
babies and animals can respond to experience without concepts.
DM replies: So you think animals and babies respond to DQ which is
undifferentiated, yet babies respond differently to different things, mother
Marsha repeats:
In mindful awareness one drops the narration (language) function for a more
perceptual (immediate) experience, but there is still pattern identification in
differentiating shapes, smells, sounds, tastes and touch. The differentiating
is there with perceiving too. Sans
On Oct 9, 2013, at 3:15 PM, Andre Broersen andrebroer...@gmail.com wrote:
I stick to my guns: it's your interpretation that's faulty.
And one of the dead give aways is your use of the personal possessive
pronoun..
Andre, whose guns do you stick to?
Marsha
Moq_Discuss
Quality is shapeless, formless, indescribable. To see shapes and forms is to
intellectualize. Quality is independent of any such shapes and forms. The
names, the shapes and forms we give Quality depend only partly on the Quality.
They also depend partly on the a priori images we have
dmb,
On Oct 9, 2013, at 5:23 PM, david buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote:
But, alas, Marsha thinks DQ can't be the ever-changing flux of experience but
DQ is nothing, so there is nothing to change ...
RMP states:
Change is probably the first concept emerging from this Dynamic
dmb,
To be more precise...
On Oct 9, 2013, at 5:23 PM, david buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote:
But, alas, Marsha thinks DQ can't be the ever-changing flux of experience but
DQ is nothing, so there is nothing to change ...
On Apr 29, 2013, at 3:20 PM, david buchanan claims:
DQ,
David Morey said to DMB:
... undifferentiated DQ cannot be judged against concepts, if undifferentiated
DQ means no subject-object divide that is correct, if it means primary
experience has no content, that is deluded I believe.
dmb says:
Primary experience has no content? Right,
Hi DMB
Let me think, largely from you and your selective quoting. So you are saying
DQ has no patterns but is full of content, but you cannot offer any
description of that content… sounds pretty confused to me, perhaps you can
help, how do you know DQ is full of content? What is your
Marsha had written:
In mindful awareness one drops the narration (language) function for a more
perceptual (immediate) experience, but there is still pattern identification in
differentiating shapes, smells, sounds, tastes and touch. The differentiating
is there with perceiving too. Sans
Marsha:
Experience trumps concepts.
On Oct 7, 2013, at 2:22 PM, david buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote:
Marsha has making this same mistake for quite a while. About six months ago
Marsha said: In mindful awareness one drops the narration (language) function
for a more
dmb,
On Oct 7, 2013, at 2:22 PM, david buchanan dmbucha...@hotmail.com wrote:
Marsha has making this same mistake for quite a while. About six months ago
Marsha said: In mindful awareness one drops the narration (language) function
for a more perceptual (immediate) experience, but there
pure experience is a continuous flow of perceptions.
Not exactly. How about the experience of happiness? Or dreams?
[DMB]
If the baby ignores this force of Dynamic Quality [the flux of experience]
..., but if he is normally attentive to Dynamic
Quality he will soon begin to notice
pure experience is a continuous flow of perceptions.
Not exactly. How about the experience of happiness? Or dreams?[DMB]
If the baby ignores this force of Dynamic Quality [the flux of experience]
..., but if he is normally attentive to Dynamic
Quality he will soon begin to notice
Hi All
I think the only preconceptual pattern before experience there are, must be
based on an individual choice of the ultimate motivator for the creation and
evolution. A basic meme, statistical chance, the selfish gene, God, Good or
something else. It can also be based on the level of
Hi Ian
I certainly agree, science is great with SQ, measuring, quantifying,
finding the maths to model and predict rates of change, etc, there is also
interesting ideas about causality and explanations about how levels relate in
science, but whilst staring at and conceptualising all the
Waver, empiricism, interpretation all way down to DQ, meta of real qualities,
dmb said:
But I notice that you're still wanting to say that there are patterns in the
DQ part of Pirsig's equation. How many times do I have to point out that this
is a contradictory misuse of the very terms under
Please ignore half finished email I just sent, full version to follow
David M
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Waver, empiricism, interpretation all way down to DQ, meta of real qualities,
dmb said:
But I notice that you're still wanting to say that there are patterns in the
DQ part of Pirsig's equation. How many times do I have to point out that this
is a contradictory misuse of the very terms under
Hi David and All,
I agree we can't explain the change in DQ. IMHO, however, we can posit a
model like evolution which helps us identify levels (differences) in change.
Evolution describes metaphysics in levels DQ/SQ.
Joe
On 10/8/13 5:58 AM, David Morey david...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
why
David Morey said to dmb:
...So you believe babies and animals presumably use concepts, that all
patterns are inseparable from concepts,
dmb says:
No, I think patterns and concepts are one and the same. And I believe babies
and animals can respond to experience without concepts.
David
Hi David and All,
Speculation: Evolution! (Ex voluntas)! From Will! My free decision
accepts or negates what I perceive.
Belief and knowledge. Manifestation follows reality. When intellect and
will manifest, do they follow differing metaphysics? Mind/matter? I am
confused!
Joe
On
“If the baby ignores this force of Dynamic Quality [the flux of experience]
it can be speculated that he will become mentally retarded,
but if he is normally attentive to Dynamic Quality he will soon
begin to notice differences and then correlations between the differences
and then repetitive
Hi DMB
Many thanks for the below, I hope you realise this is a much better quality
response, getting to grips with the real issues, well done, please see my
comments below.
dmb says:
Okay, so what we're talking about here is the status of objects in the MOQ.
The way that Craig has
Hi DM
I'm not sure why you're still so stuck on this idea that percepts are,
in some way, patterned.
Hadn't we already agreed that concepts are SQ and percepts are DQ?
DQ is unpatterned so percepts must also be unpatterned.
If percepts are patterned then they're not DQ.
What's the problem?
Or
dmb quoted Pirsig:
“If the baby ignores this force of Dynamic Quality [the flux of experience] it
can be speculated that he will become mentally retarded, but if he is normally
attentive to Dynamic Quality he will soon begin to notice differences and then
correlations between the differences
Hi Horse
I just think we experience percepts as patterned, there is some form to them,
prior to full blown conceptualisation, if that makes them SQ that is fine by
me, Pirsig certainly refers to patterned here though:
“If the baby ignores this force of Dynamic Quality [the flux of
Hi Horse
When I say experiences press themselves on us I do not mean as objects, I mean
that experiences press their patternedness on us, probably because experience
is made up of reaction, value reaction, being on the spectrum good to bad,
but also in sense form, colour, shape, smell,
Hi David M and All,
Modern science owes a great debt to the rigid logic in mathematics.
Mathematics can only describe definable SQ.
DQ is indefinable, outside a purview of mathematical structure. This
explains the need for the reality of DQ/SQ metaphysics in the further
discernment of reality
Wow, Joe,
I'm moved to say absolutely. I agree.
See my most recent blog post today - but in essence, the objective logic of
science cannot cope with the reality of DQ - truly radical empiricism is
before objectification and hence beyond scientific logic.
Ian.
On 7 Oct 2013 20:49, Joseph Maurer
On 10/7/13 1:39 PM, David Morey david...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote:
See the problem? Do babies use concepts to notice any differences or only to
see correlations, if either are babies busy creating SQ using concepts prior
to culture and language? Do not experiences press themselves on us without
In the thread titled Static patterns are ever-changing?!?, Craig Erb said:
3 philosophers (an SO Metaphysician, David Morey dmb) are hiking. They come
upon a rock and each try lifting it. They each have the same (i.e., analogous)
experience. They discuss what a rock is. The SO Metaphysician
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