Re: JavaScript Drops ZWNJ

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006, Mostafa Hajizadeh wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Jan, 2006 17:06 Behdad wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 26 Jan 2006, Mostafa Hajizadeh wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I use JavaScript to check and change elements in HTML pages.
> > > It works fine, but it drops ZWNJ. (Mozilla/Firefox)  Does
> > > it have any solution?
> >
> > It's a wellknown issue:
> >
> >   https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=274152
> >
> > You can use "‌" instead.
>
> Thanks, but what about texts that are currently in the page
> elements or in variables?

They don't drop the ZWNJ as far as I know.  Only text in string
literals in JavaScript source code suffers.

behdad
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Re: JavaScript Drops ZWNJ

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2006, Mostafa Hajizadeh wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I use JavaScript to check and change elements in HTML pages.
> It works fine, but it drops ZWNJ. (Mozilla/Firefox)  Does
> it have any solution?

It's a wellknown issue:

  https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=274152

You can use "‌" instead.

> Cheers,
> Mostafa

--behdad
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"Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill"
-- Dan Bern, "New American Language"
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Re: Farsi in opengl

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Install gtkglext, it's got an example of how using Pango to
render internationalized text in OpenGL.  Simply pass your
Persian text and it will take care of all your rendering.

behdad

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006, Ahmad Mouri Sardarabadi wrote:

> Salam,
>
> Man darhale neveshtam yeseri barname baraye estefadeye shakhsiyam ke az
> opengl estefade mikonan.
> man tavasote freetype(2) toonestam ke bitmap fonto baraye render dar opengl
> bedast biyaram ama baraye inkar ehtiyaj be estfade az shomareye daghighe
> harh arf az Arabic Presentation Forms B unicode hastam.
> soalam ine ke chetor mitoonam az tarighe digeyi mamande pango ya har systeme
> digeyi betore mostaghim az utf-8 shomareye monasebe fonto dar  Arabic
> Presentation Forms B bedast biyaram betori ke betonam mohtaviyate yek text
> ro az utf-8 dar opengl render konam.
>
> maslan agar tabeye man
> render_gl(char *font,const unichar *text);
>
> man az g_utf8_get_char_validated baraye taghire fomat az utf-8 be unicode
> estefade mikonam.
> chegoone agar maslan texte man ba harfe che 0x0686 shoroomishe cheye aval
> 0xFB7C ro peyda konam?
>
> omidvaram ke tozihatam baraye fahme moshkel kafi boode bahse.
>
> Ammsa
>
> PS. man dar zamine virayeshe text darin had kamelan bitajrobe hastam
> khaheshmandam ke dar soorate momken tozihat hamrah ba mesal bashand.
>
>
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>

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Re: viewing farsi font in console

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Sun, 11 Dec 2005, Medi Montaseri wrote:

> I remeber being able to do this on Unix/Linux long time
> ago...as far back as 1990sback then on SCO, AT&T
> SVR4 x86 (386 PCs) and then Linux...
>
> See manpages on
> setfont(8)
> unicode_start(1)
> unicode_stop(1)
> loadunimap(8)

Yeah, that's basically it.  And my BiCon package already has nice
Persian fonts and a keyboard map for Linux console.

> And google for "hebrew console"...that community was
> on top of this issue and I was using their tools and findings
> to solve this problem

Well, that community uses some of my tools these days :).

> my final conclusion was Grahpical Interfaces will win at the
> end...

Yeah, that was my conclusion too.

> And finally Operating Systems are pretty much alike.
> If you can do something in Dos, Windows, you can do
> it in Linux as wellsome would let a userspace app
> take over the kernel and do what ever you want (like DOS) and some only
> demand that you write a device dirver to take over the kernel...

Of course.  An small point, DOS doesn't have a kernel really :).
It may be called a boot-loader to be precise :D.

behdad


> Cheers
> Medi
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Re: viewing farsi font in console

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Sun, 11 Dec 2005, Behnam Esfahbod wrote:

> Mohsen Pahlevanzadeh wrote:
> > Dear all,
> > I need to my user see farsi fonts in console without running X.
> > does  ncursess library has capability of this function?
>
> No.

The new Debian installer fancies a bidi capable NEWT+slang stack.
No ncurses I'm afraid.


> > If it hasn't that,Please guide me that i can do it.
>
> You should use BiCon (Bidirectional Console) from Arabeyes project that
> uses FriBidi and some of Behdad's Farsi Console.

Yeah, that's probably the easiest way.  You may only need the
font though.


> 1-http://www.arabeyes.org/project.php?proj=BiCon
> 2-http://www.arabeyes.org/
> 3-http://www.fribidi.org/

--behdad
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"Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill"
-- Dan Bern, "New American Language"
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Lucene ports

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Just a quick note that if you falling in love with Lucene, there
are currently ports of it available to the following languages:

  Python, Perl, Ruby, C#, and C++

Some of them are older, some less polished, but the C# and C++
ones are really good.



--behdad
http://behdad.org/

"Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill"
-- Dan Bern, "New American Language"
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Re: MySQL 4.0, FULL-TEXT Indexing and Search Arabic Data, Unicode

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005, AmirBehzad Eslami wrote:

> Dear Behdad,
>
>   On 25 Nov 2005, you wrote:
>
> > Another options is to get yourself a real search engine, like
> > Apache Lucene. I've written my experience using that here:
>   >
> > http://mces.blogspot.com/2005/04/on-lucene-and-its-decency.html
>
> You always offer the most brilliant solutions!!
> Unfortunately, I have no experience with this mehotd. But I'm still eager.
> I read your weblog and met "Apache Lucene" homepage.
>
>   I'm impressed. Would you tell us how you have integrated this
> Java-driven package with PHP at http://rira.ir/ ?!!  It works
> really fast.

That's the tricky part, or where the runtime-hell comes in.  What
I did was to write a small java program based on the samples in
Lucene to connect to my database and feed the data into Lucene.
At search time, I have another little Java program that takes the
query string from command line and prints out search results to
standard output.  My PHP script then just fires up a shell script
that in turn runs the Java program, piping the output into PHP...

I don't have access to the Java codes at this time, but the PHP
code involved is available here:

  
http://cvs.sourceforge.net/viewcvs.py/rira/rira/php/page/search.php?rev=1.1.1.1&view=log


If you are developing in .NET, there is a functional port of
Lucene to .NET too.  There is even a port of an older version of
it to Python.

BTW, you need to make sure you compile it with Unicode turned on.
I don't quite remember the details, but there was some.  I also
have a Persian class written for it, but it didn't do much
anyway.  In a few weeks I will get access to rira.ir server and
hopefully move the site to the above sf.net project, so you can
see what's inside.

> Thank in advance,
>   Behzad

Cheers,

--behdad
http://behdad.org/

"Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill"
-- Dan Bern, "New American Language"
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Re: Bad Farsi Fonts or something

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Fri, 2 Dec 2005, Medi Montaseri wrote:

> Also, I didn't know what to do with the fonts.conf file you pointed out,
> should I
> download and put in it my $HOME/.fonts.conf

Yes, exactly.


--behdad
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"Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill"
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Re: Bad Farsi Fonts or something

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Fri, 2 Dec 2005, Medi Montaseri wrote:

> Hi
> I am having some problems with my Farsi fonts on my browser and in gedit
> on a Linux box (Fedor Core 4, Gnome )
>
> My problem is
>
> Letter "Ye" is always rendered as though it was an independent or
> detatched letter. For example, in the word "MILI" (as in mili-second) all
> the
> "Ye" letters are rendered as it would with "MEHDI" where "ye" is not
> connected to "de".

Basically, you don't have good fonts, and that's the default on
FC4 unfortunately :(.  You need to install the FarsiWeb fonts
package (available from http://farsiweb.info/) to start with.
There is a fontconfig configuration file like this one:

  http://www.cs.toronto.edu/~behdad/fonts-persian.conf

This will be included in fontconfig-2.4 release coming soon.


> Some help is appreciated.
> Thanks
> Medi

--behdad
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"Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill"
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Re: MySQL 4.0, FULL-TEXT Indexing and Search Arabic Data, Unicode

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

>
>   One solution would be to augment a DB capability
>   at the application level. That is instead of the search
>   or select qualified by a SQL where clause, simply get
>   everything (select *) and then let the application filter
>   what you want. Then when your given DB provides
>   that operation by itself, simplify your application
>   and deligate that to DB (Query Engine).
>
> Another solution is make the db believe your text is English.
> This could be done by "romanizing" the text before inserting it
> to the db, and converting it back to Unicode after reading it
> from the db and before displaying it to the user.  This can be
> done by choosing a Roman letter for each Persian letter, and
> reading Persian characters one by one and looking them up in a
> conversion table and writing the equivalent Roman characters to
> the output.  However, this has the downside that IIRC MySQL's
> full-text search is case-insensitive, and if I'm right in that
> you'd have to choose Roman characters all from one case (upper
> or lower.)  In addition to that, the data stored in the db
> might be difficult/impossible to use without such a conversion.
> It's you who should judge the tradeoffs before choosing to use
> this method or not.
>
> For some good romanizing scripts, check out 
> http://home.byu.net/jmd56/download.html.

Another options is to get yourself a real search engine, like
Apache Lucene.  I've written my experience using that here:

  http://mces.blogspot.com/2005/04/on-lucene-and-its-decency.html


> Ehsan

--behdad
http://behdad.org/

"Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill"
-- Dan Bern, "New American Language"
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Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

[Behdad Esfahbod]

To answer the parts that other people didn't answer:

On Tue, 18 Oct 2005, Max Froumentin wrote:

> Thanks for the responses. Let me comment on each here:
>
> > It is a normal form of an equation in Iran. In Afghanistan, also a
> > Persian speaking country, mathematical notations are expressed the
> > same way as in English.
>
> Even in primary school? When kids learn to write "1+2+3" do they start
> straight away to write mathematics left to right in the middle of
> right to left text?

Yes, that's what I remember.

> Another example is the division sign. Sometimes you see:
> ½, or 1/2, or 1:2, or 1÷2, or 1
>   -
>   2

The last two are used in elementary school, but then in higher
levels they fall back to 1/2 and 1
 -
 2

> I don't know the difference with Arabic either. But what I notice
> relative to English is that the limit sign is stretching. And I
> wonder if other common operators are the same. How about sine
> and cosine? Are they always written 'sin' and 'cos'. Are there local
> variations? (e.g. in French, 'tan' is written 'tg')

I've only seen a Persian operator for 'lim', and again, that's
only used in highschool textbooks, not academia.

> So the stretched 'limit' wouldn't always be stretched?

I think a common practice is to use a fixedsize 'lim' which
happens to be wider than the usual way the word is written.  The
word for 'lim' in Persian consists of only two letters, and that
may not be wideenough to make it clear what's going on, so they
typically use a stretched version.

> Max.

--behdad
http://behdad.org/

"Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill"
-- Dan Bern, "New American Language"

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Re: Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Mon, 17 Oct 2005, Arash Bijanzadeh wrote:

> I don't know how is arabic mathematics but the picture is a normal form of
> an equation in Persian

True.  Although the Persian notation for "limit" is not that
common, many simply use the Latin "lim" notation.

As for digits, we use Persian digits (U+06F0..U+06F9) in
mathematics all the time.

behdad


> On 10/17/05, Max Froumentin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > [OK, here we go again. No attachment this time]
> >
> > After asking Dan Brickley to forward my message, I was convinced to
> > join the list in order to formulate my request more specifically. As I
> > wrote before, the MathML group at W3C are looking at world-wide
> > mathematical notations, in order to find out if anything's missing in
> > the language. Right-to-Left writing is the first that came to our
> > minds so we spent some time already to look at Arabic, and we're going
> > to investigate Hebrew and others.
> >
> > We found one example of persian mathematics that seemed to differ from
> > Arabic. It's at . I don't know
> > any of either Arabic or Persian, but I'm told the equation differs
> > from arabic in that the numbers are different. The limit operator is
> > also special in that it appears to be stretchable.
> >
> > The central question really is: does Persian mathematical notation
> > have any such particularities that would make its layout different
> > from other languages, in particular right-to-left ones, and that would
> > then require special constructs in the MathML language?
> >
> > Thanks for any insight,
> >
> > Max.
> >
> > ___
> > PersianComputing mailing list
> > PersianComputing@lists.sharif.edu
> > http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
> >
>
>
>
> --
> from debian manifesto:
> Debian Linux is a brand-new kind of Linux distribution.
> Rather than being developed by one isolated individua
> l or group, as other distributions of Linux have been developed in the
> past, Debian is being developed openly in the spirit of Linux and GNU.
>

--behdad
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"Commandment Three says Do Not Kill, Amendment Two says Blood Will Spill"
-- Dan Bern, "New American Language"
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Mathematics in Persian, feedback needed

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Hi all,

Max Froumentin from the W3 consortium is seeking feedback on
Mathematics in Persian.  His message to the list was bounced for
some reason, so I'm forwarding his message.  Please keep him CCed
when replying.

Thanks,
behdad

=
From: Max Froumentin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

After asking Dan Brickley to forward my message, I was convinced to
join the list in order to formulate my request more specifically. As I
wrote before, the MathML group at W3C are looking at world-wide
mathematical notations, in order to find out if anything's missing in
the language.  Right-to-Left writing is the first that came to our
minds so we spent some time already to look at Arabic, and we're going
to investigate Hebrew and others.

We found one example of persian mathematics that seemed to differ from
Arabic.  See attached image. I don't know any of either Arabic or
Persian, but I'm told the equation differs from arabic in that the
numbers are different. The limit operator is also special in that it appears
to be stretchable.

The central question really is: does Persian mathematical notation
have any such particularities that would make its layout different
from other right-to-left languages, like Arabic, and that would then
require special constructs in the MathML language?

Thanks for any insight,

Max.
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Re: Jalali Date in JavaScript with unicode output (numbers and text)

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Thanks.  It has also been available at FarsiWeb's Jalali page for
some time:

  http://www.farsiweb.info/wiki/Products/IranianCalendar


behdad


On Thu, 25 Aug 2005, Ali Sadeghi wrote:

>
>
> Regards,
> Ali Sadeghi Ardestani
> Eghtesad Novin Bank - Tehran/Iran
> IT Dept.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: 0098 21 878 8960
> Fax: 0098 21 888 0166
>
> -
>  Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page

--behdad
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Re: farsi language auto-detection in web pages

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Wed, 24 Aug 2005, mohsen ali momeni wrote:

> Hi,
> I need Add_date function for jalali calendar. This will be used in an
> open source project.

What is the Add_date function?

> An alternative can be a perfect algorithm to detect whether a year is
> leap or not.
> Is there anyone having a perfect implemetation of this function? (I

What do you mean by perfect?

  function is_leap_year () {
$y = $this->y;
/* 33-year cycles, it better matches Iranian rules */
return (($y+16)%33+33)%33*8%33<8;
  }

  function is_leap_year () {
$y = $this->y;
/* 2820-year cycles, idiots think it's more precise */
return $y)-474)%2820+2820)%2820*31%128<31);
  }

(from behdad.org/cal/cal.phps behdad.org/cal/)

> have checked the conversion codes (J2G,G2J) in farsiweb but it seems
> to have problems)

What problems?  We don't know of any.


> Regards,

--behdad
http://behdad.org/
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Re: another request for feedback

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Thanks Connie, I had a joyful afternoon (re)reading the story
with a couple of friends.  I've put a link to it on my homepage.

behdad


On Fri, 12 Aug 2005, Connie Bobroff wrote:

> Hi Everyone,
>
> I always ask for your help in various projects...
>
> This time it's one of your favorites, a Majid story by Houshang Moradi 
> Kermani.
>
>
> I need to know if you see any mistakes in Persian spelling or content in
> general and if there are any technical bugs.  I believe this will only be
> viewable on WinXP + IE6 or Firefox, Win2000 SP2 + IE6, OS X + Firefox and
> certain flavors of Linux.  Others will probably have missing characters or
> problems with diacriticals.
>
> Please find lots of mistakes before the innocent language learners visit the
> site.  They don't know how the Persian is supposed to look or anything about
> Persian computing.
>
> Most will probably enter the site here:
> http://persianintexas.org/menu03.html
>
> and the index page is here:
> http://persianintexas.org/nazem/
>
> I have built this website from tips and insights from our previous 
> discussions.
> Several of you, especially including but not limited to those with the "beh"
> component in your name were involved in the production and without whom I 
> would
> be completely lost.  Also, the biggest thrill for me was that Mr. Moradi 
> Kermani
> is just an email away in Tehran and helped a lot.  What a wonderful man!  He 
> is
> right now just writing a few words of encouragement for the language-learners
> which I'll put in the FAQ and then besides a couple small jobs, I'm done and
> you can be sure I'm exhausted!
>
> Thank you in advance for any and all feedback.
>
> -Connie
>
>
>
>
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>

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Re: farsi language auto-detection in web pages

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Wed, 10 Aug 2005, mohsen ali momeni wrote:

> Hi,
> Thanks for reply,
> What I exatly need is CP1256 detection, and after that detecting
> whether the language is persian or not.

As you can guess, all non-Unicode character sets share the same
8-bit space, so they overlap all the time.  Your only bet at
charset detection is to look at the areas that are left unencoded
in each character set and cross-out charsets as use those
forbidden areas.  As for language detection, that can be used in
charset detection too, you can look for the string SPACE REH
ALEPH SPACE as a good indicator of Persian.


> Regards,

--behdad
http://behdad.org/
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Re: farsi language auto-detection in web pages

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Tue, 9 Aug 2005, mohsen ali momeni wrote:

> Hi,
>
> How can I auto-detect language of a webpage without knowing it's
> charset? (suppose language and charset is not defined in header)
> Is there a simple (not time-consuming) method to detect a page charset?

If it's UTF-8 or UTF-16, kinda easy, not really otherwise.


> Regards,

--behdad
http://behdad.org/
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Re: Two new fonts from SIL

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Sun, 31 Jul 2005, Behnam Rassi wrote:

> Hi,
>
> SIL International has recently released two new fonts, Scheherazade
> and Lateef, both in two versions of AAT (for Macintosh) and OT (for
> the rest). They are quite good. Check them out at:
> http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?
> site_id=nrsi&item_id=ArabicFonts

Interesting.  Thanks for the link.  The fonts don't look good on
my laptop though, Arabic looking still.


> Cheers,
> Behnam

--behdad
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Re: URLs to memorize

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Fri, 29 Jul 2005, Masoud Sharbiani wrote:

> What is the usage license  of that page (and the .js files it uses)?

The page itself has nothing interesting, public domain.
For the javascripts, the ones I've written are LGPL'ed, and the
keyboard driver that Pooya has touched too, is GPL'ed.  They all
list this in their headers.

behdad

> cheers,
> Masoud
>
> Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 28 Jul 2005, Connie Bobroff wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>What does this do? I mean different than Notepad?
> >>-Connie
> >>
> >>
> >
> >- First, gives you our beloved standard Persian keyboard. So you
> >can type standard Persian on any computer running IE, Mozilla, or
> >Firefox.
> >
> >- Shows the layout for your convenience.
> >
> >- Makes it easy to convert back and forward between UTF-8 and
> >HTML entities that is a common operation when dealing with web
> >pages.
> >
> >
> >I actually have been working on a Persian-enabled htmlArea[1]
> >system too, but that's far from being done.
> >
> >[1] http://www.htmlarea.com/  It's actually Free Software, don't
> >let the front page fool you ;).
> >
> >
> >--behdad
> >http://behdad.org/
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> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>

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Re: URLs to memorize

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005, Connie Bobroff wrote:

> In case you need ideas for future enhancements, please consider putting
> an apostrophe checker which will search out unescaped apostrophes in the 
> content
> and add the extra slash before them however leave the apostrophes that are 
> part
> of the js code alone. This apostrophe problem is already a
> big enough headache in javascript but in Persian where we transliterate hamze
> with apostrophe it is that much worse.  Note, I am shamelessly suggesting the
> enhancement without even first having tried out your new editor :)

Not quite what you asked for, but I added a fewture to convert
HTML special characters (<>'"&) to entity form and back, so you
can escape a bare Persian text and insert it into HTML or
JavaScript.

> -Connie

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Re: URLs to memorize

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Thu, 28 Jul 2005, Connie Bobroff wrote:

> What does this do? I mean different than Notepad?
> -Connie

- First, gives you our beloved standard Persian keyboard. So you
can type standard Persian on any computer running IE, Mozilla, or
Firefox.

- Shows the layout for your convenience.

- Makes it easy to convert back and forward between UTF-8 and
HTML entities that is a common operation when dealing with web
pages.


I actually have been working on a Persian-enabled htmlArea[1]
system too, but that's far from being done.

[1] http://www.htmlarea.com/  It's actually Free Software, don't
let the front page fool you ;).


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URLs to memorize

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Hi all,

Today the site at http://dat.ir/ was brought to my attention.
It was some good stuff like a complete annotated Iranian calendar
(Persian, Islamic, and Gregorian).  I'm intersted in knowing how
accurate their calendar data is.  Any information in that regard
would be helful, since:

In case you have not seen it before, I have put up a proto
calendar widget here:

  http://behdad.org/calendar


(Alternatively for a limited time period the URL
http://iraniancalendar.info/ should work too.  If I see enough
interest, I may renew that URL for next year.)  The Islamic
calendar in my implementation is not in synch with the Iranian
practice and needs some work.  Any help in that area is
appreciated.  The source code is available at:

  http://behdad.org/calendar/cal.phps


I've also made a simple JavaScript editor using the latest
version of the JavaScript keyboard driver that Pooya Karimian,
Behnam, and I worked on here:

  http://behdad.org/editor


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Re: DocBook RTL document?

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005, Sadegh Ismael Nattaj wrote:

> Thanks for your hints Dan,
> The problem is when I've trying to convert a RTL DocBook to the other
> formats with tools like OpenJade's scripts or RedHat's xmlto (possibly
> the last will fits on my needs, cause it's at least UTF-8 compatible!)
> the `dir' attributes are omitted (or disabled) in the published docs.

Apparently the XSLT stylesheet is dropping the dir attributes
away.  It should be quite easy to hack the XSLT to retain them.

> Maybe I can solve that problem by implementing a RTL-based CSS to HTML
> files, but in the case of PDF or PS files we can't make this patch-like
> changes to published doc.

I have no idea what engine they are using to produce PS or PDF.
No matter which, it should be pretty hard at this time to support
RTL in PS or PDF.  Your only bet is that they use Omega, then
there are hacks around that you can use.

> Now, I'm pleased to announce a suggestion to completing the support for
> RTL subscripts in that tools (and of course, this is true when my guess
> about missing supports for RTL will be correct).

Thanks for your announcement, but if you need something, start
doing it yourself.  Or file a feature request with the
maintainers of the respective tools.  See here for an
explanation:

  http://blogs.gnome.org/view/mortenw/2005/07/11/0

> SIN

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Re: jalali

[Behdad Esfahbod]

It's completely free.  You can get it in source code or binary
from this page:

  http://www.farsiweb.info/wiki/Main/Products

behdad

On Wed, 13 Jul 2005, Sajjad Ebrahimi wrote:

> salam
> http://lists.sharif.edu/pipermail/persiancomputing/2004-May/001214.html
> fekonam inja beshe ye file baraye pocket pc peyda karad?
> foroshiye ya majani ?
> cheshekli mitonam yedone tahiye konam?
> khahesh mikonam javab bedin
> mer30
>

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Re: (no subject)

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Mon, 4 Jul 2005, khazaee wrote:

> Hello All.
> I install icu library from source "icu-3.2.tgz" as i read from readme.html 
> file in source tree.
> and i put this library in /usr/local/icu directory.( ./configure 
> --prefix=/usr/local/icu)
>
> i use some unicode functions in my program like u_strcpy,u_strlen and 
> and compile the program :
> gcc  -I /usr/local/icu/include/unicode -L /usr/local/icu/lib -licuio myprog.c 
> -o myprog
> its execute without any errors.
>
> but when i execute the binary program :
> ./myprog
>
> this error appears:
> error while loading shared libraries: libicuio.so.32: cannot open shared 
> object file: No such file or directory
>
> althout i see this library(libicuio.so.32) in the install directory.
>
> although can help me?
> what's my wrong?

Since you have installed ICU in a nonstandard prefix, you need to
add the library path to your environment.  You should add
something like this to your .bash_profile file:

LD_LIBRARY_PATH="$LD_LIBRARY_PATH:/usr/local/icu/lib"
export LD_LIBRARY_PATH


and relogin.


> regards!
> H.khazaee

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Re: cp 1256 to utf8

[Behdad Esfahbod]

iconv -f CP1256 -t UTF8 inputfile > outputfile

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, khazaee wrote:

> hello all.
> I want to change the character set of a text file from CP1256 to UTF8,
> which one is better? :
> 1) use of high level library like icu or iconv from glibc.
> 2) low level transformation and use of wchar_t data type,(byte by byte)
> i mean does icu library or iconv functions do that perfectly?
> Or
> do you have any ideas?
> regards!
> H.khazaee
>
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>

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Re: New versions of Persian stemmer & syntax parser

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Tue, 7 Jun 2005, Jon D. wrote:

> For anyone who's interested, new versions of a Persian
> stemmer, two-level morphology engine, link-grammar
> syntax parser, and character encoding conversion
> scripts are available for download.  All of it is
> under the Free license GPL v.2
>
> Web demonstrations for the Persian stemmer and the
> syntax parser are available also:
>
> http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/stemmer.html
> http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/persianlg.html

Hi Jon,

Can you please educate us on how these are supposed to work?  I
can't get anything out of them.  I choose UTF-8, and type a verb
in the stemmer, I get back the verb verbatim.

Thanks,


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Re: info@farsiweb.info

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Hi there,

We "FarsiWeb" guys are hearing here.  That's indeed the way to
contact FarsiWeb people, but we're a bit late on reply all the
time.  Sorry for that.  BTW, if you have any contributions, why
not just post them here?

behdad


On Sat, 4 Jun 2005, Medi Montaseri wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have emailed "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" over a week ago with no reply/avail.
> Anyone knows of any other way to contact
> farsiweb.infofolks.
>
> I had some contribs
>
> Thanks
> Mehdi
>

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Re: ALL COMPUTER BOOKS IN THE WORLD

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Please do not send stuff like this to this list again.

behdad

On Mon, 30 May 2005, Ali Sadeghi wrote:

> Hi all,
> http://ebuki.apvs.ru/downloads/
>
> all you need is a russian proxy to download through.
> For example use the ones in:
> http://www.web-hack.ru/proxy/
>
> Ali
>
>
> Regards,
> Ali Sadeghi Ardestani
> Eghtesad Novin Bank - Tehran/Iran
> IT Dept.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: 0098 21 878 8960
> Fax: 0098 21 888 0166
>
> __
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>

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Re: leap year issue with jalali

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> No, I don't. But the best is trying to get someone fix the bug from the
> C source and recompile. There are many Windows users out there.
>
> roozbeh

I'll go a remove.  If anybody cares, somebody would send along.
Ehsan?

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Re: leap year issue with jalali

[Behdad Esfahbod]

What do you mean "I also checked"?  I think you "just checked"
the jalali.exe.  This is an old bug that have been fixed in C
source, PHP source, PalmOS, etc, but I don't know why Roozbeh
likes to keep he buggy executable around.

Roozbeh, do you mind if I remove it?

behdad


On Sat, 26 Mar 2005, Ali Sadeghi wrote:

> Hi people!
> Please check jalali algorithm with 2005/03/20 and you
> will get 1383/13/01 ? I also checked it with the
> "jalali.exe".  The same problem!
>
> BEWARE!
>
>
> Regards,
> Ali Sadeghi Ardestani
> Eghtesad Novin Bank - Tehran/Iran
> IT Dept.
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: 0098 21 878 8960
> Fax: 0098 21 888 0166
>
>
>
> __
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> Yahoo! Small Business - Try our new resources site!
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/resources/
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Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 21, Issue 6 (fwd)

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Fri, 25 Feb 2005, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:

> I'm not sure how the date data type can be representation agnostic.
> What ever the OS provides (via a system call) is in reference to a
> starting point in some calendar.  On UNIX systems, this is
> traditionally the number of seconds since January 1, 1970, i.e.
> Gregorian.  GetSystemTime on Win32 returns a structure, which
> represents the Gregorian date.

The UNIX epoch can easily defined as the number of seconds since
11 Dey 1348.  The important data is a date in the sense of a
point in the axis of time.  How you write it out, depends on one
speific representation though.

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Re: The New Alef

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> There has been a new Alef around for quite a while. For those who don't
> live in Iran or haven't seen it yet for any reasons, a photo is
> available at:
>
>   http://bamdad.org/~roozbeh/alef.jpg

Smart!  That can be useful in hex numbers written in Arabic
script too.  Indeed they want it to look like one letter, and
don't want the Alef to be read as "1".

> It's used on car plates, but the exact usage is disputed among a few
> friends of mine.

What do you mean exactly?

> roozbeh

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Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 21, Issue 6 (fwd)

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005, mohsen ali momeni wrote:

> Now something else ,
> For AddDate and DateDiff functions, I need an algorithm which
> calculates the number of leap years between two given Date. Is there
> any such algorithm or at least a documentation for the above
> algorithms (jalali.c) so that i can find it in the code myself? (Or
> AddDate, DateDiff functions ready in ideal case)
>
> Regards,
> Mohsen A. Momeni

Well, that's why I'm saying your implementation is not what MySQL
people expect.  The date data type is representation-agnostic
itself, and AddDate, DateDiff, etc work with the date data type
(at least in MySQL).  What you need is functions to covert from
internal date representation to Iranian calendar string, and vice
versa.  You don't need (and should not) implement all date
functions again.


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Re: Jalali Calendar in MySQL (was Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 21, Issue 5)

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, Masoud Sharbiani wrote:

> And if you are using the mysql frontend (i.e. Command line?)
> http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/date-and-time-functions.html has the
> full set of functions for handling  date.

Most of the functions there are calendar agnostic, like DATE_ADD,
et al.

BTW, if you really need Iranian calendar in there, I suggest
writing it as an stored procedure.  Then you don't need
administrator priviledges to install the procedure, any user can
do that.

> cheers,
> Masoud

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Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 21, Issue 6

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, it was written:

> On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, mohsen ali momeni wrote:
>
> > > No.  They simply are not interested in your functions.
> >
> > They were interested, as their first email showed that. They accept it
> > but i got no answer after that.
>
> Then your implemention has been poor.

Lemme explain my answer a bit.  I didn't mean to insult anybody.
Big projects like MySQL have their own very high standards for
coding, and the maintainers are so busy that 1) it takes up to
months, before they respond to an enhancement patch, 2) they
don't have time to make patches perfect.  That's all I meant.

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Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 21, Issue 6

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Sat, 19 Feb 2005, mohsen ali momeni wrote:

> > No.  Wrong.
>
> So you say we should still fight about our calender name?

I mean yes, if we have not come up with a name yet, we can
continue discussion, of course you are free to call it fight or
whatever.

> > No.  They simply are not interested in your functions.
>
> They were interested, as their first email showed that. They accept it
> but i got no answer after that.

Then your implemention has been poor.

> > Again no.  Calendars does not belong to databases.
>
> I didn't say they belong to databases but having calender functions in
> mysql will make these calcultions much faster in programs instead of
> doing them in php.

No.  A C module for PHP is as fast, if not faster, than doing
them in MySQL, which is apparently the wrongest place you can
implement them.  What about in the kernel then?  Faster?


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Re: Jalali Calendar in MySQL (was Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 21, Issue 5)

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, Masoud Sharbiani wrote:

> I think it kinda does. After all, if they have some sql
> functions to deal with the dates stored on the tables and
> databases, if some guy (read government office or whatever)
> wants to store persian dates in the db, they have to have two
> conversion functions from Jalali to Gregorian(sp?) and reverse.

Then you have these conversion functions in your programming
language and convert as part or preparing your SQL query.

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Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 21, Issue 5

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Hi,

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005, mohsen ali momeni wrote:

> Hello,
>
> About jalali or Iranian calender, i think fighting about what the name
> should be is of no use and will make a lot of problems for us. I know
> everything about them. that Jalali calender is based on calculation
> and iranian calender has a astoronomical basis. But all these
> arguments will lead to our failiur for having a standard calender in
> iran.

No.  Wrong.

> I have added Jalali (Persian , Iranian , ) calender to MySQL as a
> set of functions having J at the beginnig of each of them. But I think
> developers of mysql has read all these arguments in mailing lists and
> may decided to forget about the patch as I have got no aswer till now.

No.  They simply are not interested in your functions.

> I think we have one target and that is having jalali (or ...) calender
> in our databases NO MATTER WHAT THE NAME IS.

Again no.  Calendars does not belong to databases.

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RE: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 21, Issue 4

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Sat, 12 Feb 2005, Saied Nesbat wrote:

> This sounds like overkill, a roundabout way of doing that has
> to be done a lot simpler. Am I missing something? Since the
> Unicode characters have the information, should Word not at
> least act as a simple box?

Implementing the whole Unicode in Microsoft way means a lot of
code which results in a lot of binaries, so they simply can't
install them all 'just in case'.  You need to explicitly ask it
to install Arabic script support...

> Best regards,
>
> Saied

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RE: A new Persian Unicode keyboard

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Well, [softening my throat] like Ehsan already mentioned, then
only trick is to use RTL paragraphs, and not only right-align the
paragraph.  That solves most of the problem.  For the remaining
few cases, these things called LRM and RLM should be used.

behdad


On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

> The problem, as some of you might have guessed, is the direction switching.
> Given an application like MS Word, my keyboard correctly sends the
> characters, and Word gives them the right form. But sometimes some
> characters (mainly the "shared" chars), and often the blinking caret appear
> on the wrong side of the line.
>
> What can be done to make the shared characters (Like "!") to appear on the
> correct side? The caret problem can be fixed with Word's RTL command. But
> mixing English and Persian letters in the same line often leads to
> unpredictable outcomes.
> The rule of the thumb is, use RTL paragraphs when writing Persian text
> (which might contain English text within it) and use LTR when writing
> English text (which might contain Persian text within it.)
>
> Is there an algorithm governing these situations that I can use to modify
> the output to remedy this?
> There is an algorithm called Unicode BiDirectional Algorithm, the details of
> which is avaibale on Unicode.org.  As you might have guessed, Word doesn't
> provide a correct implementation of this algorithm (nor do any other text
> editors that I know of to this date.)  There's a library being developed
> called FriBidi, of which Behdad is the project maintainer, IIRC, which might
> help you, but not with Word probably.  I guess Behdad would be able to make
> profound comments on this.
> -
> Ehsan Akhgari
> www.farda-tech.com 
> List Owner:  
> MSVC@BeginThread.com
> [Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [WWW: http://www.beginthread.com/Ehsan ]
>

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RE: A new Persian Unicode keyboard

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005, Saied Nesbat wrote:

> Thanks Behdad!

You're welcome.

> I have gone through your slide presentation online and I am trying to sort
> out things now!

Good.

> So you mean each para should be wrapped in RTL PDF pair? I have experimented
> with outputting RTL, but in some apps (mainly Word) it does not seem to have
> any effect. Is there a setting in word that can remedy this?

No, paragraphs should not be wrapped in anything.  Some systems
automatically detect paragraph direction based on its content
(basically the first alphabetic letter), but apparently Microsoft
systems don't.  So you've got to push a button in Word for that.
I'm sure you can find answers to all your problems here:

http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/persianwp.htm

> Do you know of any tool that correctly implements the protocol, so that I
> can use it for testing?

The gedit text editor from the GNOME project is a good example.
Basically anything using latest GNOME libraries implements this.

> Best regards,
>
> Saied
>
> P.s., My friend Farhad Msoudi who just visited Toronto tells me that the a
> huge portion of the CS dept of Toronto university is Iranian.
> Congratulations guys!

Thanks.

behdad




> -Original Message-
> From: Behdad Esfahbod [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 1:43 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: Persian Computing List
> Subject: RE: A new Persian Unicode keyboard
>
>
> Well, [softening my throat] like Ehsan already mentioned, then
> only trick is to use RTL paragraphs, and not only right-align the
> paragraph.  That solves most of the problem.  For the remaining
> few cases, these things called LRM and RLM should be used.
>
> behdad
>
>
> On Thu, 10 Feb 2005, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:
>
> > The problem, as some of you might have guessed, is the direction
> switching.
> > Given an application like MS Word, my keyboard correctly sends the
> > characters, and Word gives them the right form. But sometimes some
> > characters (mainly the "shared" chars), and often the blinking caret
> appear
> > on the wrong side of the line.
> >
> > What can be done to make the shared characters (Like "!") to appear on the
> > correct side? The caret problem can be fixed with Word's RTL command. But
> > mixing English and Persian letters in the same line often leads to
> > unpredictable outcomes.
> > The rule of the thumb is, use RTL paragraphs when writing Persian text
> > (which might contain English text within it) and use LTR when writing
> > English text (which might contain Persian text within it.)
> >
> > Is there an algorithm governing these situations that I can use to modify
> > the output to remedy this?
> > There is an algorithm called Unicode BiDirectional Algorithm, the details
> of
> > which is avaibale on Unicode.org.  As you might have guessed, Word doesn't
> > provide a correct implementation of this algorithm (nor do any other text
> > editors that I know of to this date.)  There's a library being developed
> > called FriBidi, of which Behdad is the project maintainer, IIRC, which
> might
> > help you, but not with Word probably.  I guess Behdad would be able to
> make
> > profound comments on this.
> > -
> > Ehsan Akhgari
> > www.farda-tech.com <http://www.farda-tech.com/>
> > List Owner:  <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > MSVC@BeginThread.com
> > [Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [WWW: http://www.beginthread.com/Ehsan ]
> >
>
> --behdad
> http://behdad.org/
>
>
>

--behdad
http://behdad.org/
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Re: It seems that kompare have problems in FC3 with UTF-8!

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005, Hedayat Vatakhah wrote:

>Yes, you are right. But, just to be a little more exactly, this
> program also let me to merge preferred differences,
> and the reality is that the main problem is here, because it (in FC3)
> can't save the result in proper UTF-8 encoding
> and the result is not usable. I haven't any problem with it in FC1.
>It's a little strange for me that command line programs have not any
> problems with UTF8 while some of GUI programs
> have that. For another example, the replace in files in Quanta+ (in the
> menu it is "find in files") have problems for replacing
> Persian characters while sed works well!


This is becuase command line tools are mostly from GNU coreutils
package, which is heavily tested, but GUI tools are... you know.


> Thanks again

--behdad
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Re: It seems that kompare have problems in FC3 with UTF-8!

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> On Tue, 2005-01-18 at 09:03, Hedayat Vatakhah wrote:
> > ITNO GOD
> > Hi everybody,
> > Kompare is a useful program for me.
>
> May I ask what is "Kompare" exactly?

No, because you have not SedTFE.  And you even don't need that.
Kompare is the KDE name for Compare, which probably is a GUI
application for showing the diff(1) between two files.


> roozbeh

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RE: openoffice & zwnj

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Tue, 4 Jan 2005, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

> Great to know it's been fixed.  Do you exactly know the fix is included
> since which version of the KDE?  I've noticed that this bug seriously
> affects the usability of KDE for Persian computing.

Don't know numbers, but it was early 2004.  After the thread
about me and XFree86 hit the search engines ;).

> Thanks,
> -
> Ehsan Akhgari

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RE: farsiweb.info

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Connie Bobroff wrote:

> In any case, many people in Iran turn off images anyhow for faster
> viewing so you may like to design the site so that it works both with and
> without images.

You sure?  It was true a few years back, but I don't think
it's still the case.  People download MP3 and watch Flash
animation these days.

> By the way, I also may be lacking perfect sight but I didn't see a link to:

A link to PersianComputing on farsitex.org?  Or farsiweb.info you
mean?  Note that the content on farsiweb.info is just a
reshuffling of the old stuff.  With the new system, we will start
updating the content soon.

> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://lists.sharif.edu/mailman/listinfo/persiancomputing
>
> -Connie

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RE: farsiweb.info

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Mon, 1 Nov 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

> I'm not sure.  What I can say for sure is the image won't render correctly
> in IE.  Hmm, BTW, at a second look, IE fails to render the layout correctly
> as well!  Of course that's not as bad as how the background image looks.
> List Owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Humm, would you check http://farsitex.org/?  I think it worked in
IE when I designed it.

Thanks a lot for the feedback.  Behnam, would you please make
sure the design works in IE and Mozilla at least.


--behdad
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RE: farsiweb.info

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Ah, that's a good sign, that none of us at FarsiWeb uses IE
anymore!  BTW, IIRC, 8bit transparent PNG works in IE too.

b


On Sun, 31 Oct 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

> > Hi friends,
> >
> > The FarsiWeb Project's website  is now
> > up-to-date with a new Wiki system.
>
> Congrats on the new site!
>
> I took a quick look, and I have a comment regarding the design.  It seems to
> me that you're using a transparent PNG file as the background for the pages.
> IE doesn't support this feature of PNG files correctly, so the pages render
> half unreadable on IE.  I suggest changing this, and the easiest way would
> be not to use a transparent PNG (no need for that, anyway - just let the
> background be white.)  Fortunately real browsers (Firefox, and Mozilla) do
> render it pretty fine!
>
> Other than that, the layout seems very nice.  Thanks for your efforts.
>
> -
> Ehsan Akhgari
>
> Farda Technology (http://www.farda-tech.com/)
>
> List Owner: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> [ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ]
> [ WWW: http://www.beginthread.com/Ehsan ]
>
>
>
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>
>

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Re: Publishing Persian Poems on the Web!

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Hi Sina,

I've got some experience doing that, but I'm not yet convinced
that people should start designing schemas from scratch.  I
believe one should start from Docbook or something like that.

You should consider contacting Omid Milani <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> or
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>.  He's THE guy for your work.  He an expert in
XML technology, and has designed Persian schemas for such things
like plays, articles, poetry, etc.

BTW, one experience I've got from working on http://rira.ir/ is
that there's no such thing as a "beyt".  I mean, a poem is a
sequence of verses, just that.  There should be no element called
"beyt" in your schema.  I know it's a bit controversial, I don't
insist on it, feel free.

behdad


On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Sina Heshmati wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm currently involved in designing a new standard to markup
> Persian poems. XML Schema is used to define the markup
> vocabulary. The XML instance of the schema is written in
> Persian, including element and attribute names, etc.
>
> I've also hacked two style sheet layers (XSLT and CSS) as well.
> However the presentation model is beyond the scope of this post
> and demands a completely separate discussion as well as
> different contributors.
>
> I ask anyone, who's familiar with the structure of Persian
> poems, and (meta)data associated with them, to participate in
> our new and open standard on the Web. I found this mailing list
> a reliable and convenient place for our further discussions to
> take place.
>
> Best Regards,
> Sina

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Re: Unicode - ligatures

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Hello,

In short:  You are supposed to ignore both Arabic Presentation
Forms blocks.  They are not part of the Arabic model of Unicode
(except for Rls character of course).

Longer answer:  Many (lazy) implementations, use the Presentation
Forms - B block as a glyph encoding to shape Arabic in the
Unicode namespace and pass the shaped string to the rendering
engine, which by definition, is the place that character to glyph
mapping should have been done.  Fortunately with OpenType fonts,
you don't need to worry about shaping at all.  They define their
supported glyphs and shapes all in the font itself.

About the joining algorithm, no, Unicode joining algorithm does
not support Presentation Forms all!

behdad


On Sat, 18 Sep 2004, Peyman wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I hope somebody in the forum answer my question ASAP:
>
>  What is the use of "Arabic Presentation Forms - A" in Unicode
> (Range FB50-FDFF).
>
>  I understand we may use some symbols like /Rial/ by a single
> code (FDFC) but what I don't understand is the ligatures. Do we
> need them all If we want to design a Persian editor? Or some of
> them?
>
>  Basically, what is behind the joining algorithm? For example,
> we have the code 067E for /p/. Do we need to implement FB56,
> FB57, FB58, FB59 for initial, middle, final, and isolated forms
> of /p/ in the involved algorithm?
>
> Peyman

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Re: Persian numbers in Glibc

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Actually Qt already does that.  Otherwise all Hamed said is
right and precise.


On Sun, 12 Sep 2004, mohsen ali momeni wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> Does Glibc support persian numbers? i mean does it interpret persian
> numbers as real numbers?
> As i tested ,it's not so , i mean there is no support for persian
> numbers in glibc.am i right?
>
> Is there any application in linux supporting persian numbers?Should
> this support be added to any application that is supposed to support
> persian language?
>
> regards,
> Mohsen

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Re: Iranian clipart

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Sat, 4 Sep 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> On Wed, 2004-09-01 at 11:44, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
> >   * Islamic Republic of Iran official emblem, based on the same
> > specification, with a very slight modification to match the
> > emblem in common usage:
>
> Questions: What exactly is that slight modification? How is this
> different from the emblem which was already provided on the FarsiWeb
> website?

the "sword" tail on the very bottom center of the emblem is
typically drawn as a simple triangle, but FarsiWeb's is not like
that.  Means, old FarsiWeb's is like this:


----
   /  |  |  \
   \/

while mine is:

---  ---
   /   \/   \

Right?

> roozbeh

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Re: PersianComputing Digest, Vol 15, Issue 10

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Please write in English when posting to this list.  If you like
to answer in any language other than English, exclude the list
address please.

behdad

On Fri, 3 Sep 2004, Mohsen Saboorian wrote:

> > salam 
> Salam,
>
> > man saeid hastam,
> > mikhastam beporsam agar dar zabane java bekham ye araye az reshteh ra be
> > zabane farsi print konam  >chekar bayad bokonam.,,..
> bastegi dare bekhahi tooye console print koni ya tooye ye frame (masalan
> JFrame). tooye console be in asoonia nemitooni chon bayad consolet farsi
> support kone (pas rooye Syste,.out.println("") hesab nakon).
>
> Mitooni be asooni ye String ro az character haye Farsi (masalan ba encodinge
> cp1256 = Windows-Arabic) por koni va ba estefade az Swing ya AWT namayeshesh
> bedi.
> Rahe dige ine ke Stringeto az character haye Unicode por koni. in karo too
> java mishe ba \u anjam dad va bayad jaye X ye adade mabnaye 16 gharar
> bedi.
>
>
>
> > merc az komake shoma
> ya Ali.

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RE: Vi/Emacs editor with RTL support

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

> Thanks for your reply, Behdad.
>
> So, is there any editor you would recommend that has good support for
> bidirectional (Persian and English) text, and preferrably supporting HTML
> (but an editor without HTML support will also be just fine)?  The latest one
> I'm working with is Bluefish, but it has some minor problems, and I'm
> looking to see if there's something better available.


The only editor I use these days is gedit.  It has some syntax
highlighting features.

> TIA,
> -
> Ehsan Akhgari

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Iranian clipart

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Hello,

Spend a few hours on these; you may find handy.  I will put links
on farsiweb.info later.

  * Iran Flag, based on the exact specification of the
standard[1]:

  http://farsiweb.info/logo/irflag.svg
  http://farsiweb.info/logo/irflag.eps
  http://farsiweb.info/logo/irflag.png

  * Islamic Republic of Iran official emblem, based on the same
specification, with a very slight modification to match the
emblem in common usage:

  http://farsiweb.info/logo/iri.svg
  http://farsiweb.info/logo/iri.eps
  http://farsiweb.info/logo/iri.png

  * Sharif University of Technology logo[2]:

  http://farsiweb.info/logo/sharif.svg
  http://farsiweb.info/logo/sharif.eps
  http://farsiweb.info/logo/sharif.png


For the curious, they're going to be included in the FarsiTeX
release which is happening soon :-).

Cheers,
--behdad
  behdad.org

[1] Iranian national standard ISIRI 1, available at
http://www.isiri.org/std/1.htm (Persian)

[2] http://sharif.edu/


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Re: Vi/Emacs editor with RTL support

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Not anything really useful.  Vim has a rightleft mode (:set
rightleft), which is useful for ONLY RIGHT-TO-LEFT text.

Emacs, it's worse:  there's an emacs-unicode branch, an
emacs-bidi branch, and the emacs-head branch.  They are trying to
merge the three of them for a few years now!

behdad

On Wed, 1 Sep 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Sorry if this question is too basic.  Is anyone aware of a version of the vi
> editor (preferrably) or Emacs which have support for right-to-left
> languages, including Persian?  If they already support this, should I do
> anything special to turn RTL support on in those applications?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> -
> Ehsan Akhgari
>
> Learn Linux in Persian: http://www.persian-linux.org/

--behdad
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Re: utf-8 based Persian collation function

[Behdad Esfahbod]

You are quite right.

On Mon, 23 Aug 2004, hamzeh khazaee wrote:

> Hi All.
> Dose anybody know that MySQL use of glibc for collation functions or implement  it 
> in itself? (utf-8 based collation function for persian support)
> it seems that MySQL does not use  of glibc collation function (strcoll()) but i'm 
> not sure.
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Re: Behaviour of U+002F in IE and Mozilla

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

> >
> > The behavior was changed between Unicode 4.0 and 4.0.1!  With the
> > latest Unicode version, using Persian digits, in a Persian
> > paragraph, something like 1361/07/05 will render 1361/07/05, not
> > 05/07/1361, which is a good thing.  (Using Arabic digits instead
> > of Persian digits most probably result in the other way).
>
> Do you know which systems actually implement 4.0.1 bidi algorithm? Does
> installing your latest FriBidi library completely address this issue on
> Linux?

No system actually :-(.  No, installing FriBidi only affects
AbiWord...  Oh wait, Pango, so GNOME, now use 4.0.1 bidi data.

> Hooman Mehr

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Re: Behaviour of U+002F in IE and Mozilla

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004, Ali A. Khanban wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Since the Arabic thousand separator, U+066B, is not commonly in use,
> most of Persian sites use "/", U+002F, instead. The behaviour, when it
> is used between numbers, is different in IE (and MS Office) and Mozilla.
> Which one is the correct one?

The behavior was changed between Unicode 4.0 and 4.0.1!  With the
latest Unicode version, using Persian digits, in a Persian
paragraph, something like 1361/07/05 will render 1361/07/05, not
05/07/1361, which is a good thing.  (Using Arabic digits instead
of Persian digits most probably result in the other way).

> Best
> -ali-

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RE: Persian translation of GNOME

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

> I've heard about FarsiWeb's wiki for quite a while.  What makes starting it
> up so difficult?  Anything I can help with?

Nothing technical.  FarsiWeb website is completely out of date.
Pushing updated data into wiki is something that takes a huge
amount of time from Roozbeh and I.  I have suggested that we
provide a wiki space to PersianComputing which is open to public
to, in order to let other people contribute.

--behdad
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RE: Persian translation of GNOME

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Thu, 5 Aug 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

> > There are a couple tools to help translation.  KBabel is the one from
> > KDE project, and there's a gtranslator for more GNOMEi look.
>
> I've got to give them both a test, and if I don't like them, I'll write my
> own tools.  :-)

That's what is considered reinventing a wheel ;-).  You can just
get on and improve gtranslator.

> > I remember Roozbeh was preparing a guide for Persian GNOME
> > translators.  There is also a list for that that Roozbeh will
> > subscribe you eventually.  The translation process is definitely not
> > as easy as it is for a left-to-right language.
> >  Also we are a bit picky about words to use, want to conform to the
> > Persian Academy translations and other sources...  But help is
> > definitely welcome.
>
> I suppose I'll receive a list of such words with the approved translations,
> isn't it?  I personally have a low opinion about most of those "translated"
> words that the Persian Academy has assigned (I'll *never* call computers
> "Raayaaneh"!) but some of them sound meaningful, and anyway I'm not here to
> enforce my personal preferences, but to help!

Yes, just keep pinging Roozbeh.

> > Roozbeh is a bit busier than before these days.  If you didn't gety
> > ANY feedback on these, come to in September again and I will use my
> > privileges :-).
>
> Fine - although I'd prefer to start right away, since the occasions in which
> I have spare time are pretty scarce, and I'd like to use them well.

I prefer you start right away too. ROOZBEH, hello, wake up...

> > Since you are in Iran now, you may also want to join gnome-ir-list on
> > http://lists.gnome.org/ and help starting GNOME enthusiasm in Iran;
> > this great desktop has been left in cold there...
>
> I did.  Hmm, the list doesn't seem to want to attract many people, does it?
> I had to type the URL by hand, and if it were not because of my personal
> experience with Mailman, I would have never found its subscription page!
> Maybe you'd like to make the list more visible...

It's supposed to attract GNOME-lovers.  The problem is that I
can't find any time to fire it up...  Perhaps after FarsiWeb set
up its wiki system.

--behdad
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Re: Persian translation of GNOME

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Wed, 4 Aug 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

> I'd like to help in translating the GNOME 2.8 po files.  I noticed that
> Roozbeh is the leader of the Persian translation team.  I'd like to know how
> I can contribute.  Should I send patches to Roozbeh himself, or do something
> else?  Also, are there any tools which can help in the translation (instead
> of manually editing the po files)?
>
> Thanks!

Hello,

There are a couple tools to help translation.  KBabel is the one
from KDE project, and there's a gtranslator for more GNOMEi look.
I remember Roozbeh was preparing a guide for Persian GNOME
translators.  There is also a list for that that Roozbeh will
subscribe you eventually.  The translation process is definitely
not as easy as it is for a left-to-right language.  Also we are a
bit picky about words to use, want to conform to the Persian
Academy translations and other sources...  But help is definitely
welcome.

Roozbeh is a bit busier than before these days.  If you didn't
gety ANY feedback on these, come to in September again and I will
use my privileges :-).

Since you are in Iran now, you may also want to join
gnome-ir-list on http://lists.gnome.org/ and help starting GNOME
enthusiasm in Iran; this great desktop has been left in cold
there...

--behdad
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Re: IPA2 Official Web site...

[Behdad Esfahbod]

I'm wondering, ..., didn't you really know that IPA already
stands for International Phonetic Alphabet and is widely in use?

On Thu, 29 Jul 2004, D.A.S. Moslehi wrote:

> Hello,
>
> International Persian Alphabet (IPA2)'s official Web site went online.
> http://www.persiandirect.com/projects/ipa2/
>
> Persian Linguistics Association (PLA) Home
> http://www.persiandirect.com
>
> Regards,
> DASM

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Bidirectional Layouts in Gtk+ -- Slides

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Hello,

I'm writing this mail from Ottawa, spending the most wonderful
week of the year here, featuring:

  Desktop Developers' Conference 2004
  http://www.desktopcon.org/2004/schedule.php

  Linux Kernel Developers Summit 2004
  http://www.usenix.org/events/kernel04/

  Ottawa Linux Symposium 2004
  http://www.linuxsymposium.org/2004/schedule_static.html

So, everybody's here, you name it, Alan Cox & Telsa, Owen Taylor,
Havoc Pennington, Keith Packard, ... (Linus Torvalds?  I didn't
see him yet, should be)


Ok, to the point.  I talked today about Bidirectional Layouts in
Gtk+.  You can find slides here:

  http://behdad.org/download/Presentations/bidi-layouts/

I've prepared them for 1024x768 screen, and using Mozilla.
Excuse me in advance if you see garbage on other browsers.
Comments are more than welcome.

Cheers,
--behdad
  behdad.org

PS. My other presentations, papers, etc are always at:

  http://behdad.org/download/Presentations/
  http://behdad.org/download/Publications/
  http://behdad.org/download/Conferences/

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Re: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Farsi in Max OS X]]

[Behdad Esfahbod]

AbiWord still has serious problems with Arabic joining.  It's
supposed to be fixed when FriBidi does Arabic joining finally,
which you know...

b

On Wed, 7 Jul 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> -Forwarded Message-
> From: Michael Everson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Roozbeh Pournader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [Fwd: Farsi in Max OS X]
> Date: Wed, 07 Jul 2004 17:54:27 +0100
>
> At 19:18 +0430 2004-07-06, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
>
> Your friend could try AbiWord 2.1.2 for OS X
> http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/14743
>
> It is free and is multi-platform and OpenSource.
>
> >-Forwarded Message-
> >From: Kit Spence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: Farsi in Max OS X
> >Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 15:48:02 +0430
> >
> >I am doing some work in Afghanistan and would like to be able to
> >generate content in Dari on my Mac laptop running OS 10.3.4  So far it
> >appears that I cannot use Office X or Filemaker 5.5 and generate Dari
> >due to those applications not supporting unicode fonts.
> >
> >Does anyone have any advice in this matter? If I upgrade to Filemaker
> >7.7 and Office 2004, will those applications recognize unicode and will
> >I require additional fonts?
> >
> >Thank you for any help that can be provided.
> >
> >___
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>
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>

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Re: Persian UTF-8 MySql collation

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Sun, 4 Jul 2004, Peter Cruickshank wrote:

> On Sat, 3 Jul 2004 16:13:02 -0400
> Behdad Esfahbod <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Actually there's a middle solution here, which the price is just
> > messing a bit with your database schema.  All you need is to
> > store the string returned by strxfrm(str) in your database as a
> > binary field, and just sort on that column instead of str.
> >
> > behdad
>
> That might work for Ehsan, but it sadly wouldn't save much effort for us
> since PHP doesn't do Persian UTF-8 collation (that I've been able to get
> working anyway), or provide access to strxfrm()

To do Persian collation you need to set locale to Persian.
Wrapping setlocale and strxfrm is a ten minute job (if they're
really not in PHP).  Or do you mean you are using PHP on a system
which does Persian collation but does not provide strxfrm?  Then
you better deal with it...  If you have Glibc, as I said, it's a
ten minute job.

> :-(
>
> - which is why MySql seemed the least bad option.

By no means it's the least bad option, believe me.  It's the
hardest, without Gilbc at least.

> Peter

[Ehsan, you just replied to me.  Answering on list.]

On Sun, 4 Jul 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

> > Actually there's a middle solution here, which the price is
> > just messing a bit with your database schema.  All you need
> > is to store the string returned by strxfrm(str) in your
> > database as a binary field, and just sort on that column
> > instead of str.
>
> Thanks for the suggestion.  I didn't think of this before.
>
> BTW, is there a free Persian collation implementation available?  I have

Well, you may wish to read a couple documents.  Read Unicode
Collation Algorithm for example.  Just read the intro or
something like that.  The point is that Persian Collation is only
an small table feed to the Unicode Collation Algorithm.  So yes,
there is a free Persian collation implementation, Glibc + fa_IR
locale.

> seen Roozbeh's fa_IR LC_COLLATE file, but I'm wonderring is it implemented
> in straight C as well.  And no, using glibc is not an option here.

What you have seen is the binary encoded table.  The source is in
the fa_IR locale source file.

> Thanks!
>
> -
> Ehsan Akhgari

Guys, both of you, if you don't have Glib, and your system does
not provide what you need, you:

* Either forget about Persian Collation, or
* Implement your own minimal collation, or
* Consider using something like Glibc or uClibc with Persian
  locale as a library.  Not sure how uClibc deals with Persian
  locale.

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Educating Google about "Farsi"

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Hello listers,

I'm setting up a petition against using "Farsi", in favor of
"Persian".  It's not a regular petition, but a Google petition.
You should have seen a couple of them before.

Here is the petition page:

http://behdad.org/farsi.html

To support the petition, all you need to do is to add a link to
this page in your pages.  Something like this does the job:

"Don't just say http://behdad.org/farsi.html";>Farsi."

Use your imagination. See http://behdad.org/ for an example.

Thanks in advance,
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RE: Persian UTF-8 MySql collation

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Actually there's a middle solution here, which the price is just
messing a bit with your database schema.  All you need is to
store the string returned by strxfrm(str) in your database as a
binary field, and just sort on that column instead of str.

behdad


On Sat, 3 Jul 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

> > Ehsan - are you thinking about adding glibc collation to the
> > strings/ctype-MYSET.c file? Or something more fundemental?
>
> Well, to tell you the truth, I'm not really sure, since I've not checked the
> MySQL source tree yet.  But yes, I'm going to see if glibc support can be
> incorporated into MySQL's charset handling mechanism.
>
> > I think you and the team I'm working with are trying to do
> > the same thing - it would be great if we could work together
> > and come up with a solution that anyone else can use too.
>
> I looked around a bit, and it seems like MySQL 4.1.x will be supporting
> UTF-8.  MySQL 4.0.x doesn't have that support (the version I'm using on the
> production server is 4.0.18-standard.)  Because of that, incorporating that
> support into MySQL might require a lot more work that I currently imagine.
> Unfortunately in that case, I'll have to leave MySQL as it is, and sort the
> data at the client site (less efficient, but requiring less development
> time), and since the application I'm working on doesn't store very big
> chunks of data in the db, I may decide to sacrifice performance for
> development time.
>
> > What's involved in creating a collation file? These two pages:
> > http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/Adding_character_set.html
> > http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/Character_arrays.html
> > http://dev.mysql.com/doc/mysql/en/String_collating.html
> > seem to say that's it's not too difficult, if you know what
> > you're doing?
> > (Which I dont. I'm just a humble PHP programmer)
>
> Well, that seems to be for single-byte code pages.  The Persian character
> coding system used in glibc is UTF-8, and that will require patching MySQL
> source code.  And like I said, because of MySQL's lack of UTF-8 support, it
> might require more work that I imagine.  I think I can handle it from
> technical point of view (I'm good at C/C++) but I'm quite pressed in free
> time...
>
> > ... it seems it would be great to create a mySql Persian
> > collation file rather than changing the source, with all the
> > problems that would lead to of having to re-patch the code
> > everytime there's a new MySql release? Or is that inevitable?
>
> Well, if we decide to change the MySQL source code, we can submit our
> patches to MySQL team, and hopefully they will incorporate it into their new
> releases.  Of course in that case we might have to look into adding that
> support to MySQL 4.1.x as well (if it already doesn't have.)  So there's no
> need for re-patching.  There's just a need for time!  :-)
>
> In case I decide not to spend the time in the development of Persian
> collation support in MySQL, I'll be glad to help your team in case they need
> technical programming help.  In that case, I'll let you know off-list
> (remind me if you don't get any note from me within a week, please.)
>
>
> -
> Ehsan Akhgari
>
> Farda Technology (http://www.farda-tech.com/)
>
> [ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ]
> [ WWW: http://www.beginthread.com/Ehsan ]
>
>
>
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>
>

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RE: Persian UTF-8 MySql collation

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Sat, 3 Jul 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

> > For proper sorting using Glibc, it's not enough that the
> > application use Glibc, but it should call the sorting
> > function of Glibc too! (which apparently MySql does not).
>
> Right.
>
> I'd like to spend some time trying to patch MySQL sources to use glibc
> collation functions before I give up and sort the data at the client side.
> Would you mind letting me know which version of glibc I should be using?
> Also, is there any resource/documentation/how-to available which can guide
> me in this job?

It's not any easy to do what you are saying here, unless you make
sure you ALWAYS run your mysql under the same (fa_IR) locale, and
that the locale data does not change.  Any Glibc version >= 2.2
should be Ok.

> Thanks!
>
> -
> Ehsan Akhgari

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RE: Persian UTF-8 MySql collation

[Behdad Esfahbod]

For proper sorting using Glibc, it's not enough that the
application use Glibc, but it should call the sorting function of
Glibc too! (which apparently MySql does not).

behdad



On Fri, 2 Jul 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:

> > You can do proper Persian sorting using either glibc
> > (available in all GNU/Linux distributions), or ICU (available
> > from http://oss.software.ibm.com/icu/).
>
> I have tested both MySQL 4.0.15 on WinXP and the default MySQL which comes
> with Fedora Core 1, and neither could handle Persian sorting correctly.
> They both seemed to start sorting from letter "FEH" to "YEH" and then
> picking up "CHEH", "ZHEH", "GEH" and "PEH", and then starting from "ALEF" to
> "GHEIN".
>
> It's possible that the Windows version has not been compiled with glibc, but
> the Linux version is most likely compiled with glibc, I think.
>
> Do I need to compile MySQL manually?  If so, is any particular version of
> glibc required, or do I need to specify any particular compilation options?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>
> -
> Ehsan Akhgari
>
> Farda Technology (http://www.farda-tech.com/)

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Re: [Persian Locale d6 Feedback] Short Format Dates

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Sat, 26 Jun 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

> Hi Behdad,
>
> You are right, that was my mistake. I had some wrong perceptions about
> U+060D that made me believe it would belong there. I am starting to
> feel I need to import all those data files into a database for quick
> reference. I am getting tired of having to find information scattered
> across so many different places (book, charts and various data files) I
> still feel there should be a better way for organizing all the
> information in Unicode.
>
> - Hooman


There are applications out there that do this.  Under Linux,
gucharmap is such a one, but not really that Unicode-oriented.
Under Windows, the unicode.org releases an application for that
but unfortunately I don't recall the name right now, nor I can
find it on their site.  But I'm sure there is, I downloaded it
last month (and couldn't run!).

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Re: [Persian Locale d6 Feedback] Short Format Dates

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Fri, 25 Jun 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

> Hi Behdad,

Hello,

> Glad to hear the good news. Is there anything that may impact end
> users? If there is, please provide a none-technical overview of the
> changes that will affect normal users of Persian text on computer.

No, not really.

> What I meant about U+060D is that I expected to find something about it
> in /UNIDATA/PropList.txt but it wasn't there. That is the reason I
> asked. Now I have figured it out. Both the applicable defaults and also
> explicitly in UnicodeData.txt. Sometimes I find UCD (Unicode Character
> Database) files confusing. Is there any hope they will be cleaned up
> further? For example, why not explicitly include characters in all
> expected places instead of relying on fallback and default properties?

I'm confused now.  What do you expect in PropList.txt about
U+060D?  If you read UCD.html, it says that files like
PropList.txt just list those code points that hold a true value
for the binary property.  Why they don't list the all??  Why
should the do?  There are more than a million of them, while
poins of interest are usually less than a thousand ones...

behdad

> - Hooman
>
> On Jun 24, 2004, at 12:17 AM, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:
> >>
> >>> Excellent news. While talking about clarifications, I couldn't find
> >>> the
> >>> properties for U+060D. Do you have information in this regard?
> >>
> >> No idea.  What kind of information are you looking for?  If this
> >> is what you like to hear, yes using that character instead of
> >> slash, solves your poblem of entering short dates. :-)
> >
> > Ok, here comes the more info from Chapter 8 of Unicode available
> > online at:
> >
> > http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode4.0.0/ch08.pdf#G20596
> >
> > It says:
> >
> > Date Separator. U+060D ARABIC DATE SEPARATOR is used in Pakistan
> > and India between the numeric date and the month name when
> > writing out a date.  This sign is distinct from U+002F SOLIDUS,
> > which is used, for example, as a separator in currency amounts.
> >
> >
> > --behdad
> >   behdad.org
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> >
>
>
>

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Re: [Persian Locale d6 Feedback] Short Format Dates

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:

> > BTW, Behdad is attending the Unicode Consortium's Technical Committee
> > meeting right now, and later the ISO JTC1/SC2 ones. I'm sure the UTC
> > meeting (which will be the first with a FarsiWeb member present) will
> > have good news for us (which may include more changes and
> > clarifications to the Bidirectional algorithm).

Yeah, I'm exceptionally happy with the outcome.  Since the
changes are highly technical, I don't go over them in this list.

> Excellent news. While talking about clarifications, I couldn't find the
> properties for U+060D. Do you have information in this regard?

No idea.  What kind of information are you looking for?  If this
is what you like to hear, yes using that character instead of
slash, solves your poblem of entering short dates. :-)

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Re: [Persian Locale d6 Feedback] Short Format Dates

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:

> On Tue, 22 Jun 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:
>
> > Excellent news. While talking about clarifications, I couldn't find the
> > properties for U+060D. Do you have information in this regard?
>
> No idea.  What kind of information are you looking for?  If this
> is what you like to hear, yes using that character instead of
> slash, solves your poblem of entering short dates. :-)

Ok, here comes the more info from Chapter 8 of Unicode available
online at:

http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode4.0.0/ch08.pdf#G20596

It says:

Date Separator. U+060D ARABIC DATE SEPARATOR is used in Pakistan
and India between the numeric date and the month name when
writing out a date.  This sign is distinct from U+002F SOLIDUS,
which is used, for example, as a separator in currency amounts.


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Re: Personal names survey

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

>
> On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
>
> >  we are *specifying* a single way to do
> > things.
>
> Why the 2 calendars then?

Because in that case, both are acceptable and widely in use in
Iran.  In the case of putting Kasre in personal names, PUTTING
KASRE IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.  Because more than 95% will tell you
they have never seen Kasre in PRINTED in personal names.

> -Connie

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Re: Quran Copyright

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Hi,

The Arabic text is not copyrighted in plain text, but any
annotated version is copyrighted, as well as any translation and
audio.  The rule is:  Everything is copyrighted unless proved
otherwise.

behdad


On Sun, 20 Jun 2004, S N wrote:

> Hello,
>  I am trying to find some information on copyright issues
> related to Quran text. I would appreciate any suggestion that
> might point me to the right direction. In developing a software
> containing the Quran text, what should I take into
> consideration in terms of what's subject to copyright laws?
>  I don't think the Arabic text is copyrighted. What about any
> translations? How about audio (recitations)?
>  I see various Arabic Texts, translations, and recitations
> available on the Internet, but none of them seem to be
> copyrighed.
>
> As I mentioned above, any help is greatly appreciated.
>
> Regards,
>
> Saeed Nadjariun
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Re: Personal names survey

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

> On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
>
> > The bottom line:  Thanks Connie, you showed us that there are
> > people printing that thing in reality.
>
> Behdad,
>
> I'm so glad you also now see that to *forbid* marking ezaafe in personal
> names is absurd.

Well, not quite that.  First, we never wanted to *forbid* that,
just that we say the right way is not to put.  Second, my
expression is quite like this: "Thanks, Connie, you showed us
that there are people printing Arabic Yeh instead of Persian Yeh
in reality".  Can you deduce from this sentence that using Arabic
Yeh instead of Persian Yeh should not be forbidden?  (And in fact
a few people like Dariush Ashoori do that intentionally.)

> Have a really nice day!

You too.

> -Connie

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Re: khatt e Farsi

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Peyman wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
>  What I want to conclude on "khatt e Farsi" debate considering
> member's ideas (at least for myself) is:
>
>  1- For "Arabic Script" equivalent in Unicode locale for our
> language, "alefba ye arabi" seems acceptable to me. Script has
> two translations as Behdad mentioned to me 1-/khatt/
> 2-/alefba/. However, because of addition of Persian specific
> characters "/p/,/g/,/zh/, and /ch/ we'd better call it
> "alefbaye farsi-arabi" which is equivalent to what Conie said
> "Perso-Arabic Script". Iranians have contributed to this
> alphabet any way. "khatte arabi" has lots of cultural and
> national issues, one of which ignoring our linguistic heritage,
> the efforts our ancestors did to adapt the new writing system
> to our language.

Did I said that?  "alefbaa" is simply Alphabet.


> 2- For our writing system we use "khatt e Farsi". It may be
> translated to Persian Script but should not be used for Unicode
> locale description. "khatt" is not merely writing styles, it
> has language specific rules and structures. No Arab is able to
> read our "khatt" correctly unless (s)he has knowledge of
> Persian language.

No matter an Arab can read it or not, but it's the same script.
Reading deals with language.  A German can't read English text
either unless he knows the rules, same for a Frenchman, ...

> After resolving this issue, I try to go through the nice draft
> and give my suggestions if any.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Peyman

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Re: Personal names survey

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

>
> On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
>
> > Come on Connie, you're still to provide a real example, from the
> > books or streets whatever.
>
> The "streets" stuff was a joke and I'm afraid I led Ordak on--no pun
> intended-- a wild-goose chase, (sorry!) but here are some from published
> books:


I'm not convinced with your examples.  I don't accept them as
authentic.  Let's see inside:

> http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNRahimEM.jpg

While it looks like they have put all Kasre's, but there's none
after "Moini", which is evidently pronounced in more places that
the one after "Rahim".

> http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNNaaserEKh.jpg

"Naaser-e Khosro" is a WEIRD. I have never heard anyone pronounce
it like that.  Everyone just says "naaser-khosro" just like it's
a single word.  And again, it's not first-last name combination.

> http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNMasumehYeM.jpg

I pretty share Mr Khanban's opinion here.  To me, "ma'soome-ye
ma'dan-kan" looks like anything but personal name.  What about
"ma'soom-e haftom"?

> -Connie

The bottom line:  Thanks Connie, you showed us that there are
people printing that thing in reality.  I don't like to argue
about how widely it's used anymore.  If someone has an evidence
of Persian Academy putting this Kasre, please bring the issue up
again for our reconsideration.

Thanks,
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Re: Personal names survey

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

>
> On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
>
> > > Our library is closed all weekend as we're on quarter break but I'll scan
> > > a few covers for you on Monday. Maybe not until evening though.
> >
> > Eagerly waiting for them.
>
> As I said, I'm not even looking in books till this evening, however, even
> though someone was recently saying Google can't handle harakat, I decided
> to try my luck and the first name I tried, "Shirin-e Ebadi" gave me this:
> http://www.kanoon-nevisandegan-iran.org/Shirin.htm
> (look in the second line of text)
>
> Another:
> http://www.vajehmagazine.com/archive/no_2/dialog.asp
> (line 15: Sohraab-e Sepehri)
>
> There are zillions. How many examples will you guys be needing?

I don't see any zillions, hardly a handul of them for your two
examples.  Compare with... errr..

> -Connie

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Re: Personal names survey

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
>
> > To be honest, I have NEVER seen anyone put Kasre in personal
> > names.
>
> You have! You just didn't notice. You also put them (i.e. pronounce the
> ezaafe) in personal names when speaking which you also don't notice.

So your now doubting my words?! ;-).  As I said, I typically
don't pronounce them, but I agree that there are times that we do
and there should be some trick in there.  Still looking for the
trick.

> Our library is closed all weekend as we're on quarter break but I'll scan
> a few covers for you on Monday. Maybe not until evening though.

Eagerly waiting for them.

> I may or may not also record some audio of the same thing off the internet
> for you. Luckily some nice person has just taught me the secrets of
> streaming audio.

We don't need the audio, everyone agrees that it's pronounced *in
some situations*, more or less.


> -Connie

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Re: Personal names survey

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote:
>
> > Rule 1: The following rules only apply when first name is followed by last name
> Most scientific.
>
> > Rule 2: Do not add ksare ezafe at the end of names foreign origin,
> > even if they come from a Persian speaking country, e.g. Ahmad Shah
> > Masoud.
> Evidence from the streets does not support you.


Come on Connie, you're still to provide a real example, from the
books or streets whatever.


> > Rule 3: Do not add kasre ezaafe at the end of first names ending with
> > vowels, e.g., Ali, Minoo, Saba, Reza, Kaveh. However, adding a YEH +
> > KASRE is sometimes done only for dramatic effects. For example,
> > pronounce Ali Heydari as written, but it is acceptable (but not
> > customary) to pronounce as Ali Ye Heydari.
>
> Yeh+kasre is ok in non-dramatic situations, too.
> You're definitely correct about the Alif-ending first names.

Yeah, who can deny "Sayyed Ali-e Khaamenei"?


> > Rule 4: Do pronounce a weak, almost unnoticeable kasre ezafe at the
> > end of first names ending with a consonant.
> Ezafeh in general (not just in names) is not allowed to be stressed ever.
> This is one of the properties of the Ezafeh.
>
> Nice of you to work on the problem, Ordak. It seems the same people who
> saved a lot of money not making a Persian font also saved even more money
> by not making a complete documented linguistic description of Persian nor
> any [good quality] textbooks and [complete] grammars. Great that so much
> money was saved!

And then they talk about Jews...


> -Connie

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Re: Personal names survey

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> > They are hard because they have really "never" seen anyone puts Kasre in
> > personal names. Neither do I. It "is" sometimes pronounced but almost
> > never written.
>
> I have a theory.  I think if the surname sounds better as a possessive
> (of or belonging to a place, tribe, etc) we tend to pronounce a kasra,
> and if a surname is a profession or reputation we tend not to.
>
> You would say Omar Khayyam and also say Hafez-e Shirazi.

Hafez-e Shirazi here is not a person's first and last name.
Doesn't count.  But I'm trying to get my rules writter too.

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Hi Connie,

I think the locale spec indeed aims to differentiate our script
from Japanese and Latin; just that.  A locale spec is designed to
be coded into software, which ain't have no sense of languages.
All it cares about is that the Arabic script uses Arabic shaping
rules and the 06xx block of Unicode characters; period.

behdad who's getting tired of this discussion ;)


On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

> Hi Michael again after a long time,
> You've unfortunately been CC'd in the middle of a conversation on *locale
> requirements* not unicode level encoding.
> You are correct and encouraged to put Persian in with Arabic for unicode
> purposes.
>
> At the level of the current conversation, however, modern standard Persian
> is written in the *Perso-Arabic script.* Urdu is also written in the
> Perso-Arabic
> script. (Urdu is NOT written in the Perso-Arabic-Urdu script.) Arabic is
> written in the Arabic script. Various North African
> languages and dialects are written in a modified Arabic script.
>
> Please don't consider the letter "Beh." Think about the Yeh, the Keheh,
> numbers 4,5,6, Heh+Hamzeh Above, ZWNJ, some punctuation, sorting.  I'm not
> talking about calligraphic styles here.  It is ok to just say "Arabic
> script" if you are simply differentiating it from Japanese and Latin. But
> at the level of Locale specs, you need to be more precise so as to reflect
> the additions and modifications of the original Arabic script from which
> it was derived.
>
> Since this locale information is being written in Persian, it can be
> assumed that the Persian readers know the script they are reading the info
> in has some additions and modifications. However, for an internatinal
> audience,  (not the unicode level), it is necessary to make it clear that
> modern Persian is not written in the same exact script as modern Arabic.
> I don't think it is *too much* wishful thinking that non-Persian experts
> will want / need to consult this document.
>
> Again, you got dragged into something without context. That's why I"m not
> replying to you point-by-point.
>
> -Connie
>
> On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, Michael Everson wrote:
>
> > At 15:43 +0430 2004-06-13, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
> > >I wish to restate my position. I'm CC-ing Michael Everson, a Unicode
> > >expert in script naming. Michael, would you please tell us if Connie is
> > >right here?
> > >
> > >On Sun, 2004-06-13 at 00:49, C Bobroff wrote:
> > >  > > Yes, all those script are called Arabic in scientific circles.
> > >>
> > >>  No, the others are, in scientific circles said to be in "Perso-Arabic
> > >>  script."
> >
> > Not since the 19th century.
> >
> > >  > You can also say "a modified form of the Arabic script" but that
> > >  > is what is meant by "Perso-Arabic script." Just "Arabic script" only
> > >  > applies to the Arabic language.
> >
> > This is not correct.
> >
> > What Ms Bobroff is doing is confusing character and glyph, I believe.
> > It us true that the Arabic script has many variant styles, but this
> > does not mean that those styles are or should be encoded as different
> > characters. The ARABIC LETTER BEH which is used in Arabic, Persian,
> > Urdu, Pashto, Sindhi, Kurdish, Kashmiri, Malay, Balochi, Uzbek,
> > Kazakh, Uighur, etc. is the SAME intrinsic character in all of them.
> > It has right-to-left directionality. It has a nominal, initial,
> > medial, and final form which connects to other letters.
> >
> > Arabic script can be written or otherwise displayed in a number of
> > styles, such as Kufi, Nastaliq, Naskh, and Maghrebi. But all
> > varieties are ways of writing the same essential characters, and
> > because of that, it is correct to speak of only one "script".
> > --
> > Michael Everson * * Everson Typography *  * http://www.evertype.com
> >
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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft (fwd)

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Well, with all respect, I'm afraid Arash's comment is not to be
relied upon.  Because I'm sure the same linguists everyone here
refers to will prefer "Persian" to "Farsi".

behdad

On Sun, 13 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

> (I'm forwarding this on behalf of someone with mailer problems.)
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2004 12:58:12 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Arash Zeini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Connie Bobroff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft
>
> In a message dated Sunday 13 June 2004 04:43, Michael Everson wrote:
>
> > >  > > Yes, all those script are called Arabic in scientific circles.
> > >
> > >>  No, the others are, in scientific circles said to be in
> > >> "Perso-Arabic script."
> >
> > Not since the 19th century.
> >
> > >  > You can also say "a modified form of the Arabic script" but that
> > >  > is what is meant by "Perso-Arabic script." Just "Arabic script"
> > > only > applies to the Arabic language.
> >
> > This is not correct.
>
> Hi Connie,
>
> This is Arash Zeini. I have a problem with my SMTP server and hence can
> not send email from my regular account. So I am not posting this to the
> ML, but feel free to forward my comment below it to the list.
>
> I have not been following the discussion very tightly, but I think that
> Mr. Everson misunderstood the context of the discussion. I can confirm
> that you are right. In linguistic circles "Perso-Arabic script" is used to
> refer to the modified Arabic script used in Iran to write Farsi (Persian).
>
> Greetings,
> Arash
>
>
>
>
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>

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Personal names survey

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Hi Connie,

To be honest, I have NEVER seen anyone put Kasre in personal
names.  I just tried all books in my small shelf and NONE of them
had kasre on the cover page.  Note that all of these books have
been bought in the past year in Tehran (Enghelaab).  Here is the
list of names I checked for curious:


Nasim Daavari
AbooToraab Khosravi
NikAahang Kowsar
Seyyed Ebraahim Nabavi (3)
Jey Di Salinjer (8)
Ahmad Golshiri
Hooshang Golshiri (6)
Mostafaa Mastoor (4)
Mishel Foko
Maani Haghighi
M. Aazaad va Said Tavakkoli
Asadollaah Amraaii
Reymond Kaarver (4)
Farzaane Taaheri
Ja'far Modarres Saadeghi
Shirin Ta'aavoni (Khaaleghi)
Meelaad Zakariaa (:D)
Mohammad Najafi
Itaalo Kaalvino (3)
Mohsen Ebraahim
Seyyed Mohammad Ali Jamalzaadeh
Kort Vone-gaat Joyner
Eyn. Alef. Bahraami
Negaar Saadeghi
Ali Abdollaahi
Hermaan Hese
Keykaavos Jahaandaari
Haaynrish Bol (3)
Naataali Choobineh
Ahmad Shamlou (5)
Fedriko Gaarsiaa Lorkaa
Abdolkarim Soroush (2)
Iniaatsio Siloneh (2)
Mehdi Sahaabi (2)
Mohammad Ghaazi
Simon Dobovaar
Roman Gaari
Soroush Habibi
Tooraj Rahnamaa
Farzaad Hemmati
MohammadRezaa Farzaad
Feredrish Vilhelm Niche
Dariush Ashouri
Abbaas Ma'roufi
Zoyaa Pirzaad (2)
Simin Daaneshvar
Bozorg Alavi
GholaamHossein Saa'edi
Saadegh Hedaayat (2)
Noam Chaamski
Koorosh Safavi
Ahmad Kasravi
MohammadRezaa Baateni
MohammadRezaa Mohammadi-Far (9)
Aandri Taarkofski
Hooshang Hesaami
YaarAli PoorMoghaddam (5)
...


So, here it is.  Do you still say "all the time"?  If you still
insist on that, I'm afraid your opinion should not be counted,
because apparently it's not the practice in Tehran.


behdad




On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
>
> >  Many
> > other things may also be optional (like how to write "ordibehesht",
> > "zi-hajje", or "hejdah"), but we are only allowing one,
>
> There is no comparison between these and the personal name topic.
> You are giving incomplete and wrong information.
> And you have every right to do so too so don't let me stop you. However,
> now that I've pointed it out, I know that even though I'm not going
> to say another word on this topic, you'll fix it. How do I know? I've come
> to know your ways very well after so many years. You'll see.
>
> > > "all the time". Sorry!
> >
> > Then you need to define all the time. I don't see a Kasra in the
> > author's name on this book that is sitting on my desk.
>
> Well, "all the time" does not, in fact, mean "all the time" in English.
> It just means "all the time." You know, a synonym for "sometimes!"
> Why do you have to always be so hard on the poor molla from Qazvin?
>
> -Connie
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Re: khaat e Farsi

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Fri, 11 Jun 2004, Peyman wrote:

> Conclusion: You can say that the origin of our alphabet is
> Arabic but you can not claim that our writing system is Arabic.
> Our writing system is Persian âkhaat e farsiâ. It is what
> my teacher Dr. Safavi as a linguist says in his book and what I
> also say as a linguist.

We have been all talking about the script (which you call it
alphabet), not writing system.  And if they call both of them
"khat-e farsi" in Persian, that may be the source of the problem.

> Just let me know if more linguists are needed to testify :)
> however, what linguists believed and struggled to say has been
> ignored extensively during past years. Dr Bateni proposed a
> minor change to our writing system long ago in order to better
> serve the Persian language; and they ignored him and fired him
> from the Tehran university because of political and religious
> red lines.
>
> Peyman


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Re: Mirroring in Unicode

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote:

> Hi Behdad,
>
> I just finished finding the relevant part (Rule L4 of UAX #9) of
> Unicode specs refering to mirroring. I believe the problem I am
> complaining about is still a problem and is due to bad Unicode
> specifications. I do not know how Unicode got mirroring into their
> standard, and their rationals behind this. However, in my opinion, the
> correct semantics is that if the input text has matched open and end
> parenthesis then the visual output should also have matched left and
> right parenthesis regardless of the paragrpah mode. Obviously the
> Unicode specs break this semantics when the text is "RTLTEXT(RTLTEXT)"
> and the paragraph is in LTR mode (or vice versa).

I'm sure you agree that matched parantheses is evil in plain
text.  This breaks all kind of things, like statelessness,
context-freeness, locality, etc.  It's plain text after all.

And assuming no matching should be considered, that's almost the
best you can get.  Note that in your example the problem is with
your paragraph direction, but if you change the spec to work
around it you are definitely making worse problems.  In this
speciall case, you need the second paranthesis that way to work
in the more natural "ltrtext(RTLTEXT)" case.

> While we are talking about the semantics behind BIDI algorithm, I was
> wondering if BIDI algorithm assigns the same direction to characters
> regardless of where a line is broken. Which apparenly does not! For
> example, type in "This a very very long line ÙØØØÛ +-* ÛØ ØØØÛ *-+
> this is the question!" in a multiline input area. Notice the visual
> order of *-+ is the same in both occurneces. Now, insert spaces in the
> beginning until you get both of the *-+ on the seocnd line. Now
> observe the difference in ordering of the *-+. I again believe this is
> a design defect of BIDI specifications. Whereas, it only looks at one
> line at a time, and does not allow (unless I am mistaken) for state
> information to be propagated across lines when breaking lines. A
> better design would have allowed (and required) to pass necessary
> state information from one line to another such that the visual
> ordering would have stayed the same regardless of where the lines are
> broken.

No you are wrong here.  Bidi does exactly what you expect.  It
computes this things called "embedding levels" per paragraph,
then reorders text in each line based on the computed embedding
levels.

Note that you are probably using MS products that hardly conform
to the Unicode standard.  Should you write the output you get
that you don't expect/like, I can discuss why it's not that bad.
I tried your example in gedit which is using FriBidi 0.10.4 for
the bidi engine and it works fine.  The "*-+" always looks the
same, no matter where the line breaks.

> Of course, a typical reply could be that I need to insert some control
> characters to achieve the desired ordering. Then, my rebuttal is that
> if that is the case, why not make the control characters for such
> cases mandatory?

Huh?  They are mandatory:  if you want your specific ordering,
you have to insert them.

> Anyway, I have no hope of achieving any positive contribution at
> Unicode consortium (or other big standard groups like that). So, I am
> going to turn this into something more fruitful. That is, I like to
> put the burden of correcting these flaws at the UI. Or:

In fact Unicode Consertium is very open to suggestions and
corrections, but as the bidi expert I tell you, that's almost the
best you can get in this logical->visual model.

> "The UI should add control characters at proper places to the user
> text such that the text renders semantically correct regardless of
> BIDI inconsistencies"

Yes this has been the rule for a few years, but everyone is so
scared about auto-inserting marks and later dealing with them,
without cluttering the text much.  One such implementation is
KDE's parantheses fixing idea based on keyboard layout which is
considered quite a failure (read on Arabeyes wiki page for Qt
bugs).

> I think satisfying the above requirement is not trivial, but
> challenging enough to keep a few good minds busy thinking about it.

Sure, but the problem is that there many many other easier things
that need to be done before we get to there.  For example, we're
right not trying to fix our target system (GNOME/GNU/Linux)
to produce and parse Persian digits.  I mentioned this example
because this is one of those that is not solved in MS system
either.

If you are interested in the bidi algorithm, I recommend
subscribing to the GNU FriBidi mailing list available from:

  http://freedesktop.org/Software/FriBidi

Cheers,
--behdad
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Re: Mirroring in Unicode

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Hi Ordak,

This is not a problem in the Unicode Bidi Algorithm, not even in
Microsoft's implementation of the algorithm.  And mirroring seems
to be working quite well.  The problem is in the higher level
protocols of your system, which simply does not recognize
right-to-left paragraphs.

So your "paragraph direction" is left-to-right, and that's why
you see it like that.  Microsoft systems have no way of
auto-detecting paragraph directions.  In notepad you can set the
whole document direction to rtl or ltr.  In MS Word you can set
direction for individual paragraphs.

GNOME has recently applied a marvelous patch to autodetect
paragraph directions in the most sophisticated way, so we're just
having fun with our text editors ;-).

behdad


On Thu, 10 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote:

> I noticed that certain mirrored characters appear semanticly wrong on
> my Windows XP machine. I have no idea if it is a problem of Unicode
> BIDI specs or is due to Windows XP imeplementation. I describe the
> problem here, hoping people who know Unicode better pinpoint the
> source of it.
>
> I if type in: "ØØØ (farsi)", that is the sequence T A R SP ( f a r s i )
> (capital stands for RTL text), the result is RAT (farsi)
>
> However, if I type in "ØØØ (ÙØØØÛ)" that is the sequence T A R SP ( F A R S 
> I )
> the result is  ISRAF) RAT)
>
> Obvisouly the parenthesis are wrong in the second example. Now, if
> this is a unicode spec problem, I think they need to fix this. How the
> above text appears on other platforms?
>
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Re: khaat e Farsi

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Thanks a lot Hooman for clarification.

Also about the attachment we saw, note that Naskh, Nasta'liq,
Koofi, etc are all different calligraphic styles of the same
Arabic script.  So even the attachment saying "khatt-e naskh ...
khatt-e faarsi naam gerefti" is completely non-sense here.

There are much more important things that define the script, not
the number of letter, calligraphic styles, pronounciations, etc.
The fact that you can read what's written in those 20 countries
without any training, and that there exist situations that you
simply can't tell between them, is what matters IMO.

And note that it's quite natural that most of us have not ever
heard such a grouping before, but all linguists will tell you
this is the Arabic (or Perso-Arabic) script.


behdad

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Re: khaat e Farsi

[Behdad Esfahbod]

The book can very easily be biased.  The sentence "...
dastkhosh-e taghiraati besiaar jaaleb shod, ke neshaangar-e
aagaahi-e iraaniaan az daanesh-e zabaansheniaasi ast." is far
from justified.

Don't know why, but it reminds me of the Persian vs. Farsi
problem...


On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Peyman wrote:

> The attached .jpg is a text from the book "pishineye zabane
> farsi" written by Dr. Safavi.
>
> Peyman

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Hi all,

Well, it depends on your point of view.  Instead of bringing the
Pashto or Ordu case, lets have a look at the western equivalent.
They all call it Latin Script ("khatte laatin"), right?  It's not
about language or font-style.  And in computer software that's
what really matters.

Moreover from another point of view--the Unicode standard--we are
using the Arabic script, there's no such thing as Persian script
encoded in the Unicode standard.

behdad

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:

> Hi,
>
> The name of the script, as in attachment, seems wrong. According to the
> constitution, the name of the language and script is Farsi (Persian).
> Look at
> http://www.iranonline.com/iran/iran-info/Government/constitution-2.html and
> http://www.moi.gov.ir/ghavanin/asasi.htm#three
>
> I know that Persian script comes from Arabic and many may know it as
> Arabic, but are all the scripts with their root in Arabic script called
> Arabic? For example Pashto or Ordu?
>
> Best
> -ali-
>
> Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
>
> >I am glad to announce the availability of the first public draft of the
> >specification of locale requirements of Persian for Iran. The text tries
> >to specify the general requirements of internationalized software for
> >the Persian language of Iran. It's available from:
> >
> >   http://www.farsiweb.info/locale/locale-0.6.pdf
> >
> >Please note that this is a draft, and needs your comments in order to
> >get improved and corrected. FarsiWeb's plan is to keep this a living and
> >maintained document. For feedback or comments, please email us at
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, or call us at +98 21 602-2372. You can also write
> >to us at the following address:
> >
> >   Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
> >   PO Box 13445-389
> >   Tehran, Iran
> >
> >Also, please note that the documentation is published under a free
> >documentation license. For the exact details, see the text of the
> >license (and contact us or your lawyer in case of ambiguities, we are
> >able to explain the license or relicense the text in certain
> >conditions), but I wish to mention in short that the text is
> >copyrighted, and free documentation doesn't mean that you are allowed to
> >do anything you like with the text. You are allowed to use the
> >information you learn for any purpose of course, including using them in
> >proprietary software.
> >
> >The project has been funded and supported by the High Council of
> >Informatics of Iran, and the Computing Center of Sharif University of
> >Technology. We also wish to thank the Persian Linux project for helping
> >in the funding.
> >
> >I wish to thank Hamed Malek, Behnam Esfahbod, Houman Mehr, Elnaz Sarbar,
> >Behdad Esfahbod, Meelad Zakaria, Mehran Mehr, and the PersianComputing
> >community for their advice and contributions to the work. But as the
> >main contributor, every fault should only be blamed on me.
> >
> >Roozbeh Pournader
> >Sharif FarsiWeb, Inc.
> >
> >
> >___
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> >
> >
>
>

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Re: IRI funded projects like Persian Linux (Was Re: something else)

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 19:51, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
>
> > Man, how many yours you
> > have been in this business?
>
> I can't remember. Many. And seeing how little amount of output I have
> produced, I'm clearly a waster of my time, it seems.

Come on.  This is one of those tricks of yours ;-).  I mean how
many people you have seen *interested* in doing Open Source and
left without warning...

> > No, but any project run by IRI a foolish dumb one with no results
> > wasting oil money.
>
> The project won't be run by IRI. It will be run by an NGO.

I don't get all this NGO thing.  The money it comes from oil,
passing a handful of hops, divided by two a handful of times...


> > You know I'm so disappointed about the
> > National Persian Linux project.
>
> That project is generally wasting oil money, I agree. Better work can be
> done much cheaper with a much better quality.
>
> BTW, the Persian Computing community may be interested to see the
> technical output of certain projects there. I personally appreciate any
> discussion of the following documents here on this mailing list:
>
> Good (a specification and implementation for Persian fonts):
>   http://projects.farsilinux.org/download.php/10/opentype.zip

Very good.  Contains a list very good reference font for Persian
font designers.

BTW, their patched Pango is next to useless to me, since there's
no patch provided, no information about when they did check out
Pango, etc.  Roozbeh, can you ask them for a set of patches
instead?  I can probably help feeding the patches to Owen Taylor.


> Bad (a specification for the Iranian calendar):
>   http://projects.farsilinux.org/download.php/13/PersianCalendar3.pdf
>   http://projects.farsilinux.org/download.php/13/PersianCalendar4.pdf


Not even worth the bandwidth! :(.


> Ugly (Compilation of some non-standard Persian fonts *released* by a
> project who is supposed to write a specification about requirements of a
> Persian keyboard driver for Linux):
>   http://projects.farsilinux.org/download.php/6/Farsi_Font_Linux_2.zip

No comment.

> > I'm afraid not.  I'm afraid one of these days I theoretically
> > prove it can't be solved.
>
> I'd be happy enough with that. I'll call that a solution.

I know you will always be happy with this discoveries of mine
:-).

> > (that bidi is not reversible
> > simply means you can't get a 100% expected cursor position, huh?)
>
> Can't get the idea. You need to elaborate. But it's OK with me if you
> want to close the thread.

So I promise to go back to the joining code after this last reply :D.
I was just saying that since bidi is not reversible, you can't
predict the next cursor position, either in your logical, or
visual string.  Think a couple of seconds and you get the idea.
Remember Gaspar Sinai's concerns about bidi in Yudit?  Nothing
really new,  all I say is that there's no *perfect* solution out
there.  But that means nothing with the mess we have right now.


On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 19:55, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
> > Well we have done it a few times, but I meant the tentative
> > list we prepared for that Persian Linux project, but that ain't
> > nothing.
>
> Yeah, that was not about Persian Computing. That was about
> internationalizing and localizing GNU/Linux software for Persian.

I believe the GNU/Linux part has just been the medium.  But Ok,
it was not about details, but the big picture.  So, we are all
waiting for the wiki.

BTW, I'm living with this song of Bob Dylan these days:

http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/hattie.html

TC
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Kasre Ezafe in proper names, Was Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Wed, 9 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

> Well, you were very helpful with the "ghash-gir" topic so what is
> your problem here?  Here, I will ask this: Do you agree that
> sometimes you say, "behdaad-e esfahbod" and other times you say, "behdaad
> esfahbod?" (Note, I said *say*, not *write* for now.) And my next
> question is going to be, "when?"

Ok, as I said in another mail, you say "behdaad-e esfahbod" when
you want to differentiate from "behdaad-e pournader".  Just that.


> That should keep you busy for a while!
>
> -Connie

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Re: Locale requirement of Persian in Iran, first public draft

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, C Bobroff wrote:

> On Mon, 7 Jun 2004, Peyman wrote:
>
> > We don't write Ezafe in noun phrase constituents;
> There is a big difference between *we never write* and
> *we sometimes write*. Obviously, you DO mark the ezafeh in
> certain situations.
> In this case, if the draft says says that one may not
> mark the ezafeh to connect given and family name, then either
> that's a new rule or the draft is wrong. I see that written, especially
> for authors on book titles all time.

No this is not a new rule, nor the spec is wrong.  They *never*
write that in Iran.  You may write "mohsen-e rezaai" only for
example to distinguish it from "mohsen-e rafsanjaani", but this
way the two parts of the name are appearing as two different
phrases, not one.

> -Connie

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Re: UI problems in editing BiDi texts.

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Hi Ordak,

The message you sent is not complete, right?  And you know, this
problem cannot be solved without implementation.  Because the
Unicode bidi algorithm we are implementing is such a beast with
those things called "directional embeddings" and blah blah.  BTW,
please go on and elaborate, we get the idea.

Thanks
behdad


On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote:

> Following up the old thread, here is my attempt to understand the
> problem. We may then agree on a desired behavior, and then on an
> implemenation.
>
> The problems appear when typing a text in a BiDi enabled editor. it
> seems to three categories of concren.
>
> 1) When typing a bilingual text, the cursor jumps unexpectedly. An
> example, is when I type "HERE IS SOME RTL TEXT", (where UPPERCASE
> stands for RTL characters), in notepad or any input line, the cursor
> (denoted by |) and text appear as follows:
> |
> |EH
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Persian in Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR 1.1)]

[Behdad Esfahbod]

Any volunteer to import FarsiWeb's locale document into CLDR
please?  The current Persian data in CLDR is absolute junk.

b

On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> -Forwarded Message-
> From: Rick McGowan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: New versions of the Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR 1.1)
> Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 09:03:48 -0700
>
> The Unicode Consortium announced today the release of new versions of the
> Common Locale Data Repository (CLDR 1.1) and the Locale Data Markup
> Language specification (LDML 1.1), providing key building blocks for
> software to support the world's languages. This new release contains data
> for 247 locales, covering 78 languages and 118 countries. There are also 36
> draft locales in the process of being developed, covering an additional 17
> languages and 7 countries.
>
> For more information, see http://news.google.com/news?q=CLDR
>
> Regards,
>   Rick McGowan
>   Unicode, Inc.
>
>
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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 18:33, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
> > About a list of open problems, no, there's no such thing yet, but
> > Roozbeh and I compiled a similar list sometime back that I don't
> > have it anymore.
>
> And I don't even remember doing it! :'-(
>
> When was it?

:)).  Well we have done it a few times, but I meant the tentative
list we prepared for that Persian Linux project, but that ain't
nothing.

> roozbeh

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Re: Persian-English Dictionary -- Was: Iranian Mac User group

[Behdad Esfahbod]

On Tue, 8 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:

> On Tue, 2004-06-08 at 19:19, Masoud Sharbiani wrote:
> > Roozbeh, is it possible to create a wiki for persian computing?
>
> That is *planned* for FarsiWeb's website. I'm sure Behnam Esfahbod and
> Elnaz Sarbar will announce here the good news about the new FarsiWeb
> website, when it became ready.
>
> roozbeh

Oh, so it's a "Who answers first" competition? :D.  "az khodam bepors" ;-).


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