Re: [PEDA] Altium Total Support Brochure

[Tony Karavidas]

Protel used to have really good support. In fact several members of this
list are ex-Protel people and a few used to work in support. I used to mail
them files...they would reproduct the problem...figure out a workaround or
if there wasn't one, write it up for the engineers to evaluate.

You could ALWAYS talk to someone in the early to mid '90s, then towards the
end of the Utah era, it went to hell. Fortunately by that time I was very
good at the tools so I didn't need to call other than to report problems,
not ask for workarounds. (I had already figured them out)

This list really is the best support. There are lots of expert users here. A
great resource for all levels really.

Tony



> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On
> Behalf Of Jon Elson
> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 4:02 PM
> To: Protel EDA Forum
> Subject: Re: [PEDA] Altium Total Support Brochure
>
>
> Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:
>
> > Mr. Clark emphasized that the burden of providing support for ancient
> > versions of Protel was diverting resources from program development, and
> > that with the ATS program, Altium would no longer be obligated
> to provide
> > support without receiving corresponding revenue.
>
> I'd love to know who is getting support for "ancient" versions of
> software.
> I can't get support for 99SE from Altium!  I never even bother to
> call them,
> because they are a black hole.  I send email, leave phone
> messages, etc. and
> never hear a word back.  If it wasn't for this list (which I am NOT paying
> anyone for) Protel would be 'shrink wrap' software, ie. you gety
> what comes
> in the package, and you'd better be able to figure out all
> problems yourself.
>
> > Better, however, Altium could replace support by its personal
> staff, which
> > is expensive, with user-based support, which would be very cheap. We
> > already provide better support anyway. By facilitating user
> support, Altium
> > would be fulfilling its implied contract with the users of
> older versions,
> > for that contract does not specify or determine the means by
> which support
> > is to be provided.
>
> Well, when I used Accel's Tango years ago, I could call them up
> and actually
> talk to a live person.  Sometimes they had a workaround,
> sometimes they said
> "oh, well, if it crashes when you do that, then don't do that."
> But, I can't
> recall actually having spoken to anyone at Protel (now Altium) about a
> technical problem.  I did call their sales people and speak to a human.
> And, if I sent an email on technical issues, I once heard back from them
> 2 MONTHS after the report was sent!  The several other times, I NEVER
> got any response at all.
>
> Unless I'm singled out because we are at a University (they never
> told us we
> wouldn't get support due to our edu. discount as some other vendors do)
> I can't believe they are claiming support costs are killing them.
>
> Any comments on the level of support others have gotten?
>
> Jon
>


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Re: [PEDA] How to change Netlist lines back to solid lines?

[Waldemar Kulajew]

Shuping Lew schrieb:
> 
> Hello, there, Does anybody know why my netlist on the PCB suddenly turned
> into hidden lines instead of solid lines? I did not change anything and not
> sure how to changed them back to solid lines again. Thanks in advance.
> 
> Susan Lew
> Quintron Systems, Inc

Hello,

Maybe you only turned off the connections by clicking them off in the
options|Board options|Layer-tab?
I hope you are not offended becouse of these simple antwer but that was what
heppened first time I missed the lines.

Waldemar

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Re: [PEDA] How to change Netlist lines back to solid lines?

[Thomas]

Right click in a free of the PCB work space, select Options/Colors/ from the
pop up menu, then click in the coloured box next to "Connections".

Tom.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, 13 December 2001 10:06 AM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: Re: [PEDA] How to change Netlist lines back to solid lines?


Further to this thread, does anyone know how to set the default color of the
ratsnest lines. I know how to edit them but would prefer that they came up
with the color of my choice everytime they were created.

Regards,
Lloyd

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 4:08 PM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: Re: [PEDA] How to change Netlist lines back to solid lines?




Sounds like the connections have been turned off. You can get them back
again by
doing the
following in PCB:

View -> Connections -> Show All


This menu also has provision to hide or view individual components nets or
global nets like power/ground.
Its useful when placing parts to see a less cluttered ratsnest.



___

Clive Broome
IDT Sydney Design CentrePh: +61 2 9763 3513
8 Bayswater Dr, HomebushFax:+61 2 9763 3409
Sydney,  NSW, 2127  Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Australia

___










"Shuping Lew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 12/13/2001 04:06:41 AM

Please respond to "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To:   "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc:(bcc: Clive Broome/sdc)

Subject:  [PEDA] How to change Netlist lines back to solid lines?



Hello, there, Does anybody know why my netlist on the PCB suddenly turned
into hidden lines instead of solid lines? I did not change anything and not
sure how to changed them back to solid lines again. Thanks in advance.

Susan Lew
Quintron Systems, Inc









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Re: [PEDA] Add Colour to Nets

[Clive . Broome]

I did a search on 'color'(?) in all my emails and came up with this reply from
Brendon Slade..




> Hi Ian
>
> To change the colour of the ratsnest (ex PCAD user?) go to the "Browse
PCB"
> tab in the Document Manager panel.  Click on the drop down list and select
> "Nets".  The panel immediately below should display the loaded nets.
Select
> the net you wish to change the colour of and click on "Edit"
(alternatively
> double click on the net to edit).  A dialogue box is displayed with Colour
> being one of the options.  Select a colour.  I use this for power nets and
> particular busses and other important nets.
>
> Regards
> Brendon.








[EMAIL PROTECTED] on 12/13/2001 09:06:04 AM

Please respond to "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To:   "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc:(bcc: Clive Broome/sdc)

Subject:  Re: [PEDA] How to change Netlist lines back to solid lines?



Further to this thread, does anyone know how to set the default color of the
ratsnest lines. I know how to edit them but would prefer that they came up
with the color of my choice everytime they were created.

Regards,
Lloyd

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 4:08 PM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: Re: [PEDA] How to change Netlist lines back to solid lines?




Sounds like the connections have been turned off. You can get them back
again by
doing the
following in PCB:

View -> Connections -> Show All


This menu also has provision to hide or view individual components nets or
global nets like power/ground.
Its useful when placing parts to see a less cluttered ratsnest.



___

Clive Broome
IDT Sydney Design CentrePh: +61 2 9763 3513
8 Bayswater Dr, HomebushFax:+61 2 9763 3409
Sydney,  NSW, 2127  Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Australia

___










"Shuping Lew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 12/13/2001 04:06:41 AM

Please respond to "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To:   "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc:(bcc: Clive Broome/sdc)

Subject:  [PEDA] How to change Netlist lines back to solid lines?



Hello, there, Does anybody know why my netlist on the PCB suddenly turned
into hidden lines instead of solid lines? I did not change anything and not
sure how to changed them back to solid lines again. Thanks in advance.

Susan Lew
Quintron Systems, Inc














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Re: [PEDA] Licence's

[Matt Pobursky]

On Wed, 12 Dec 2001 11:02:58 -0500, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:
>
>I'm getting a bad feeling about all this, I'm afraid.
>

Abd,

You are an eternal optimist re: Protel (Altium)... ;-)

I was wondering when you'd say this as it was my first reaction to the initial ATS 
announcement. I've been down this road at least a half dozen times with other EDA and 
software development tool companies. So far Altium is proceeding according to the 
"script" so many tool companies seem to follow.

I came to Protel from Orcad. At one time (especially back in the DOS SDT days) they 
had a huge number of design seats. There support was incredible -- call them up, talk 
to a "real" engineer, maybe even one of the programmers and get a bug fix in a day or 
two. Then they went public, hired "professional" managers and  alienated a lot of 
customers with similar tactics that Altium is now introducing via ATS/price increases. 
Of course, being bought by Cadence didn't help matters either. The number one gripe I 
heard from Orcad users was "What the heck am I paying maintenance for -- I didn't get 
any version updates and they didn't fix the bugs!". That's my biggest fear with ATS -- 
that we'll be paying for version updates and bug fixes and never get them -- after 
all, they will already have our money and can/will promise "the next release is just 
around the corner". So far I've not been impressed with the past performance 
concerning bug fixes and version updates.

I suspect a lot of Protel98 and Protel99(SE) sales came from Orcad converts who felt 
abused by Orcad (like I did). If Protel thinks it won't happen to them, well...

Back to work, keeping a low profile and waiting to see how this all shakes out.

Matt Pobursky
Maximum Performance Systems

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[PEDA] Test #2, Is this message getting through?

[Brian Guralnick]

Test #2,
Is this message getting through?
My last 3 posts are missing.


Brian Guralnick



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Re: [PEDA] Keepouts & DRC

[Dennis Saputelli]

why not just make a bd with just those holes and give them a second
drill file?
Dennis Saputelli

Brad Velander wrote:
> 
> Rene & others,
> it is timely that Sean raised this issue because I have been
> fighting with related issues. In my case I have a very complex board outline
> where I have copied the board outline to the bottom layer and made it a
> keepout and control my polygon outlines with respect to the board edge.
> There are associated issues but I get lots of violations that I am trying to
> eliminate with rules, seems to only work part of the time. I also believe
> that I have found a bug relating to polygons while trying to accomplish
> this, I will write about it in a day or two when the crunch is off.
> In my case I have a number of drill holes at points along the board
> outline. These drills are to relieve the board outline edge where the
> overlying matrix has sharp corners that a router cannot achieve. Thus each
> of these drill holes have no net, no plating, no pad (0mils). Each and
> everyone of them causes a violation with the keepout.
> 
> The funniest thing is working over several variations of the PCB
> design, some rules work in one copy of the board and while making the
> variations to the next version the same existing rule will quit working all
> of a sudden. I have also had the keepout lines showing violations along the
> entire board outline because they are touching the keepout adjacent to them.
> The listed violation lists the one keepout track segment and it's adjacent
> connected track as the other violator in the pair. Go figure.
> 
> There are also other cases where a violation is not avoidable, so I
> am trying to devise rules which will eliminate those violations. Sometimes
> the rules work, sometimes they do not. At the moment I have databases which
> have over 300 violations which seem to be indefinable in the DRC rules
> set-up, most all are related to the keepout. I have even tried a rule which
> states the keepout spacing to anything else (Board) is 0mils, no luck.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Brad Velander.
> 
> Lead PCB Designer
> Norsat International Inc.
> #300 - 4401 Still Creek Drive,
> Burnaby, B.C., Canada, V5C 6G9.
> Tel   (604) 292-9089 (direct line)
> Fax  (604) 292-9010
> Website: www.norsat.com
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Rene Tschaggelar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 8:06 AM
> To: Protel EDA Forum
> Subject: Re: [PEDA] Keepouts & DRC
> 
> You can draw a track manually over a keepout line.
> The DRC signals a violation and you ignore it.
> Is that what you want ?
> 
> Rene
> --
> Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
> 
> Sean James wrote:
> >
> > Is there any way to ignore or bypass keepouts during a DRC?
> >

-- 
___
www.integratedcontrolsinc.comIntegrated Controls, Inc.
   tel: 415-647-04802851 21st Street  
  fax: 415-647-3003San Francisco, CA 94110

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Re: [PEDA] Protel does not really export to Orcad Capture PROTEL TO ORCAD CAPTURE

[Dennis Saputelli]

i bet it had to do with your trying prerelease stuff in the SPs

snipped from *various places* in my .rcs file:
use and edit your rcs file at your own risk
these are not contiguous sections and are in various menus but are
intended to show the calls

  Begin
   MenuItem '&OrCAD Max Library File' 
OrcadLayoutImporter:LoadOrcadPCBLibrary
   MenuItem '&PCAD 2000 ASCII...' 
LoadPCADPCB:LoadPCADPCBLibrary
  End

  Begin
   MenuItem '&PCAD 2000 ASCII Library...' 
SavePCADPCB:SavePCADLibrary
  End

  Begin
   MenuItem '&AutoCAD DWG/DFX'  SchDwgUtility:ImportFromDwg
   MenuItem '&PCAD 2000 ASCII...' 
LoadPCADSCH:LoadPCADSchFile
  End
  Popup '&Export'
  Begin
   MenuItem '&AutoCAD DWG/DFX'  SchDwgUtility:ExportToDwg
   MenuItem '&PCAD 2000 ASCII...' 
SavePCADSCH:SavePCADSchFile
  End

  MenuItem 'Close &Design'  Client:CloseProject
  MenuItem MARKEDSEPARATOR LoadPCADSch
  Popup '&Import'
  Begin
   MenuItem '&PCAD 2000 ASCII...' 
LoadPCADSCH:LoadPCADSchLib
  End
  MenuItem SEPARATOR
  Popup '&Export'
  Begin
   MenuItem '&PCAD 2000 ASCII...' 
SavePCADSCH:SavePCADLibFile
  End

Dennis Saputelli


Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:
> 
> At 07:54 AM 12/12/01 +0100, Emanuel Zimmermann wrote:
> >- Open the schematic
> >- Under File-Menu choose Export
> >- In the popped up sub-menu choose PCAD 2000 ASCI
> 
> If that worked for me I would have already done it. The menu option is not
> there in my SP6 installation. It might have been there at one time from the
> old prerelease PCAD translator.
> 
> I'll look into the other suggestions that were given
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Abdulrahman Lomax
> Easthampton, Massachusetts USA

-- 
___
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   tel: 415-647-04802851 21st Street  
  fax: 415-647-3003San Francisco, CA 94110

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Re: [PEDA] Connecting Power

[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]

At 08:26 AM 12/12/01 -0700, SHAWN wrote:
>In some cases I'm unable to connect power to a chip. For example, I'm 
>trying to power the hidden VS power-type pin of a LMD18200T(11) chip with 
>+38V. If I unhide the pin, it won't connect to a wire, and if I connect a 
>VS port to a +38V port that, or course, gives a "2-ports-on-the-same-net" 
>error. I remember learning the workaround in college, but can't remember 
>what that workaround was.

You know the technique (it's not a workaround because it is the intended 
way hidden pins work). Unhide the pin and wire to it. Now, why you are not 
able to wire to it is another story. Perhaps the tip of the pin is 
off-grid? What else is in the net, and is this a ports and sheet-entry 
connections type of schematic?

If you wire to the pin instead of hiding it, no global net is created. 
However, if you use a power object for +38V, this will create a global 
power net.

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Abdulrahman Lomax
Easthampton, Massachusetts USA


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Re: [PEDA] Keepouts & DRC

[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]

At 07:27 AM 12/12/01 -0500, Sean James wrote:
>Is there any way to ignore or bypass keepouts during a DRC?

A keepout which is ignored is not a keepout; I concur that it is dangerous 
to set up DRC to ignore them, assuming that you can, I haven't tried.

A case in which one might be tempted to do this is with board outline 
all-layer keepout that violates to some essential primitive, like an edge 
connector pad or mounting pad. It is better to arrange the keepout such 
that no violation takes place. A keepout may be pulled out from the board 
edge or broken in some cases to suppress errors specifically where desired 
without generically disabling keepouts. Because one would do this where 
there is another interfering primitive, it can be done such that it will 
not create a routing path outside the board.

Sometimes this could create autorouter problems, I certainly haven't tested 
all possibilities. Perhaps another writer has more comments.



[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Abdulrahman Lomax
Easthampton, Massachusetts USA


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Re: [PEDA] Signal Analysis ?

[Mike Reagan]

> I received this question from an associate who is evaluating the Protel
> Software and thought I should post it to the forum. Your thoughts?
> 
> Do you use the signal analysis on Protel?  If so, how well does it work?
> We're finally getting up high enough that we've started checking the
> signals, so a couple of the engineering were wondering about that
> capability.


Bill,
I am not sure if I am addressing this correctly, but I use the SI tools for
all of my controlled impedance designs.  Earlier this year I verified the
accuracy of the tools against IPC's calculator, Polar instrument's
calculator and have had TYCO report the same results for controlled
impedance stackups, so the SI tools for Controlled impedance is very
accurate as far as I am concerned.  Actual differences  between the
three calculators only varies by about 5%.
I have only toyed with  the crosstalk tools and have yet to verify them
against anything.   I have a collection of data measured on a system
board-backplane-board, but all of the data was collected  and measured
differentially.  One day, I will try to interpret the data an try to get a
correlation to the cross talk tools which are single ended.

Mike Reagan
EDSI
Frederick Md


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[PEDA] Altera and other

[intellasys]

That must limit your designs!

> 
> >Bastards... Do they want to sell ICs or software? It always makes me
> >mad.
> >
> 
> Both, Tony, ICs and SW. Therefore, whereever possible, I implement only
> devices into my designs which supply development software for free.
> 




Please send all responses to the following address:

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[PEDA] Re Licence's

[intellasys]

Re: [PEDA] URGENT!!!

[Brian Guralnick]

If you have the option -remove dead copper- on & there is no access to the specified
pour over same net in the area where you wish to build this polygon.  This would in
fact start and seem to finish building the polygon, except it disappears right at the
end.

Also make sure your trace clearance gap rule is small enough so that a polygon can
actually be built.


Brian Guralnick


- Original Message -
From: "Patrick Adair" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] URGENT!!!


| Insure that polygons are not hidden under the show/hide options of the
| display.
|
| Patrick
|
| -Original Message-
| From: Narinder Kumar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
| Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 2:45 PM
| To: Protel EDA Forum
| Subject: Re: [PEDA] URGENT!!!
|
|
| May be there is nothing to connect No pad ) on that net in that area.
|
| Narinder
| - Original Message -
| From: "Sean James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 3:28 PM
| Subject: [PEDA] URGENT!!!
|
|
| What would keep a polygon pour from not forming if
| A. There are no keepouts.
| B. There are no areas present to create "dead" copper pours.
| C. I am pouring over the same net.
|
| Sean James
| PCB Designer
| Telecast Fiber Systems, Inc.
| 102 Grove Street
| Worcester, MA 01605
| (TEL) 508.754.4858 x33
| (FAX) 413.541.6170
|
|
|
|


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[PEDA] Test...

[Brian Guralnick]

Just checking.  Some of my messages didn't seem to get through today.


Brian Guralnick



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Re: [PEDA] Keepouts & DRC

[Dwight Harm]

Some suggestions that may or may not be appropriate/helpful --
-- if the keepout is just to control polygons, maybe it'd help other
problems to make it VERY thin, say .001 mil?
-- somewhat similarly, if holes just need to "touch" the keepout (not
actually overlap), then you might be able to move them back .001 mil, to
avoid DRC errors without having to use a design rule.

Dwight.

-Original Message-
From: Brad Velander [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 2:36 PM

Rene & others,
it is timely that Sean raised this issue because I have been
fighting with related issues. In my case I have a very complex board outline
where I have copied the board outline to the bottom layer and made it a
keepout and control my polygon outlines with respect to the board edge.
There are associated issues but I get lots of violations that I am trying to
eliminate with rules, seems to only work part of the time.



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Re: [PEDA] Signal Analysis ?

[Clive . Broome]

I have used the IBIS model and SI sections for some models that an engineer here
was designing for a chip. It was by no means an exhastive evaluation but the
quick check I did seemed to work and give the sort of expected waveforms and
ringing for the device used on a real world PCB. I used the IBIS converter,
trace impedance calculator and waveform definition . Whilst not very easy to set
up and get working it did eventually give waveforms approximating those produced
by one of our overseas affiliates.


___

Clive Broome
IDT Sydney Design CentrePh: +61 2 9763 3513
8 Bayswater Dr, HomebushFax:+61 2 9763 3409
Sydney,  NSW, 2127  Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Australia

___







"Brooks,Bill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 12/13/2001 02:05:19 AM

Please respond to "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To:   "'Protel EDA Forum'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc:(bcc: Clive Broome/sdc)

Subject:  [PEDA] Signal Analysis ?



I received this question from an associate who is evaluating the Protel
Software and thought I should post it to the forum. Your thoughts?

Do you use the signal analysis on Protel?  If so, how well does it work?
We're finally getting up high enough that we've started checking the
signals, so a couple of the engineering were wondering about that
capability.


Bill Brooks
PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.
DATRON WORLD COMMUNICATIONS, INC
3030 Enterprise Court
Vista, CA 92083
Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
IPC Designers Council, San Diego Chapter
http://www.ipc.org/SanDiego/
http://home.fda.net/bbrooks/pca/pca.htm







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Re: [PEDA] Altium Total Support Brochure

[Jon Elson]

Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:

> Mr. Clark emphasized that the burden of providing support for ancient
> versions of Protel was diverting resources from program development, and
> that with the ATS program, Altium would no longer be obligated to provide
> support without receiving corresponding revenue.

I'd love to know who is getting support for "ancient" versions of software.
I can't get support for 99SE from Altium!  I never even bother to call them,
because they are a black hole.  I send email, leave phone messages, etc. and
never hear a word back.  If it wasn't for this list (which I am NOT paying
anyone for) Protel would be 'shrink wrap' software, ie. you gety what comes
in the package, and you'd better be able to figure out all problems yourself.

> Better, however, Altium could replace support by its personal staff, which
> is expensive, with user-based support, which would be very cheap. We
> already provide better support anyway. By facilitating user support, Altium
> would be fulfilling its implied contract with the users of older versions,
> for that contract does not specify or determine the means by which support
> is to be provided.

Well, when I used Accel's Tango years ago, I could call them up and actually
talk to a live person.  Sometimes they had a workaround, sometimes they said
"oh, well, if it crashes when you do that, then don't do that."  But, I can't
recall actually having spoken to anyone at Protel (now Altium) about a
technical problem.  I did call their sales people and speak to a human.
And, if I sent an email on technical issues, I once heard back from them
2 MONTHS after the report was sent!  The several other times, I NEVER
got any response at all.

Unless I'm singled out because we are at a University (they never told us we
wouldn't get support due to our edu. discount as some other vendors do)
I can't believe they are claiming support costs are killing them.

Any comments on the level of support others have gotten?

Jon


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Re: [PEDA] Licence's

[Jon Elson]

Abd ul-Rahman Lomax wrote:

>
> It's been about three months or so since I resold a license. I've known for
> quite some time that Altium was considering removing resellability. It
> puzzles me why they would do this, because every resold license means
> increased maintenance revenue.

I can assure you this is true.  In fact, the main reason I went to the trouble
of obtaining a resold license was to make it affordable for my one-man
shop to afford the upgrade to a current 99SE license.  I paid $1000 for
the old license, and $3000 for the upgrade.  Altium didn't get the $1000,
but they did get $3000 that they never would have gotten any other way.
There's no way I could have afforded a full license from scratch!

Jon


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Re: [PEDA] Monitors, WAS: laptops (again), Nvidia graphics, OS recommendations

[Brian Guralnick]

Unfortunately, when it comes to 27 inch & above, there are cheap ones, well not
really cheap, but they are called multimedia screens.  I have a Mitsubishi AM4201R.
It's a 42 inch screen which I've sucesscefully run at 1600x1200.  The picture is not
anything good compared to my ultraflat 21 inch Mitsubishi, but it did costs me 5
times as much.
These big screens are designed multimedia presentations, I think they are best
for gaming.  I believe a true fine pitch ultraflat 24 inch exists, but I don't know
who makes it.
Personally, I'd save the money and get a 21 inch for now, and wait for OLED
displays to come along.  Since I've seen a 10 inch prototype OLED, I now believe that
LCD and plasma screens are just plain junk.


Brian Guralnick


- Original Message -
From: "Bagotronix Tech Support" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 5:37 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Monitors, WAS: laptops (again), Nvidia graphics, OS
recommendations


| > And better than what I am running now on my desktop, except I've got
| > a 21 inch monitor and a bigger hard drive.
|
| Me too.  You gotta love those 21 inch monitors!
|
| In the spirit of "mine is bigger than yours" ;-)  , is anyone out there
| using a 27 (or 25, etc.) inch monitor?  I've heard of these before, but
| never seen one.  If so, how much do they cost, and do you like it?
|
| Best regards,
| Ivan Baggett
| Bagotronix Inc.
| website:  www.bagotronix.com
|
|
| - Original Message -
| From: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 5:18 PM
| Subject: Re: [PEDA] laptops (again), Nvidia graphics, OS recommendations
|
|
|
|
|


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Re: [PEDA] Altium Total Support Brochure

[Geoff Harland]

> Mr. Clark emphasized that the burden of providing support for ancient
> versions of Protel was diverting resources from program development, and
> that with the ATS program, Altium would no longer be obligated to provide
> support without receiving corresponding revenue.

> Abdulrahman Lomax

This forum has surely effectively subsidised Altium, and to no small extent,
in the costs it incurs in providing support to Protel users (and regardless
of which version of Protel they are using). Even when an user obtains
support from Altium, rather than us, there is good reason to believe that
some of the knowledge of their product has been acquired from members of
this forum reporting their experiences in postings.

The concept of Altium acquiring revenue to cover the costs of providing
support is not necessarily devoid of merit, but there is still a question as
to whether they are regarding their customers as cash cows, or whether there
is a genuine case to protect their ongoing financial viability; in reality,
perhaps (or even probably) a mix of the two.

Certainly the levels of payments being sought are high by historic
standards. Perhaps these could be justified if there is a corresponding
increase in the level of service provided to users, such as annoying bugs
and shortcomings being rectified (and requested new features being provided)
in very short order.

But even if that is accomplished, the impact of these payments will still be
to push Protel upwards, price-wise, in the spectrum of CAD products. Even if
Altium still ends up better off, it is not rocket science to predict that
one outcome will be at least some shrinkage of the total customer count
and/or overall share of the CAD market...

Regards,
Geoff Harland.
-
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Re: [PEDA] URGENT!!!

[Don Ingram]

Ditto

Cheers
Don
- Original Message -
From: "Bagotronix Tech Support" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 8:24 AM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] URGENT!!!


> Hey, Abdul:
>
> If any ATS dollars are to be paid, they should be paid to you!  You are
> better tech support for Protel than any corporate Protel tech support I've
> seen.
>
> In the EE dictionary, under Altium Total Support, it says "see Lomax, Abd
> ul-Rahman".  ;-)
>
> Best regards,
> Ivan Baggett
> Bagotronix Inc.
> website:  www.bagotronix.com
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 4:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [PEDA] URGENT!!!
>
>
>


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Re: [PEDA] Protel does not really export to Orcad Capture PROTEL TO ORCAD CAPTURE

[Geoff Harland]

> At 07:54 AM 12/12/01 +0100, Emanuel Zimmermann wrote:
> >- Open the schematic
> >- Under File-Menu choose Export
> >- In the popped up sub-menu choose PCAD 2000 ASCI
>
> If that worked for me I would have already done it. The menu option is not
> there in my SP6 installation. It might have been there at one time from
the
> old prerelease PCAD translator.
>
> I'll look into the other suggestions that were given
>
> Abdulrahman Lomax

You learn something every day... I was not previously aware that that PCAD
(2000 ASCII) option was available with the "File/Export..." menu item. (I
sometimes *import* files while using Protel 99 SE, but don't have too much
cause to *export* files instead/as well.)

ISTR that when the final version of SP6 was released, I uninstalled some
(trial?) servers which had been released between the final versions of SP5
and SP6, because those servers were incorporated within the final version of
SP6. Perhaps anyone who had not done this may have ended up with a set of
Resources with which exporting files in PCAD format was not provided
anywhere...

On a slightly different note, SP3 has (very) recently been released for
P-CAD 2001. (Then again, P-CAD 2001 licences have always been on an "Altium
Total Support" type setup, even though this was not designated as such,
until recently.)

Regards,
Geoff Harland.
-
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Re: [PEDA] URGENT!!!

[Brad Velander]

Ivan,
you missed definitions 2 & 3 which stated, "see Wilson, Ian" and
"see Harland, Geoff" respectively.

Overall we have a great bunch of people on this forum and everyone
deserves acknowledgement for their contributions because it definitely is
much better then any technical support that I have received from numerous
CAD vendors. Let's keep it up through the Holidays and right through
whatever the new year brings from Protel/Altimatium.

Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

Lead PCB Designer
Norsat International Inc.
#300 - 4401 Still Creek Drive,
Burnaby, B.C., Canada, V5C 6G9.
Tel   (604) 292-9089 (direct line)
Fax  (604) 292-9010
Website: www.norsat.com


-Original Message-
From: Bagotronix Tech Support [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 2:24 PM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: Re: [PEDA] URGENT!!!


Hey, Abdul:

If any ATS dollars are to be paid, they should be paid to you!  You are
better tech support for Protel than any corporate Protel tech support I've
seen.

In the EE dictionary, under Altium Total Support, it says "see Lomax, Abd
ul-Rahman".  ;-)

Best regards,
Ivan Baggett
Bagotronix Inc.
website:  www.bagotronix.com

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Re: [PEDA] How to change Netlist lines back to solid lines?

[lloyd . good]

Further to this thread, does anyone know how to set the default color of the
ratsnest lines. I know how to edit them but would prefer that they came up
with the color of my choice everytime they were created.

Regards,
Lloyd

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 4:08 PM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: Re: [PEDA] How to change Netlist lines back to solid lines?




Sounds like the connections have been turned off. You can get them back
again by
doing the
following in PCB:

View -> Connections -> Show All


This menu also has provision to hide or view individual components nets or
global nets like power/ground.
Its useful when placing parts to see a less cluttered ratsnest.



___

Clive Broome
IDT Sydney Design CentrePh: +61 2 9763 3513
8 Bayswater Dr, HomebushFax:+61 2 9763 3409
Sydney,  NSW, 2127  Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Australia

___










"Shuping Lew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 12/13/2001 04:06:41 AM

Please respond to "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To:   "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc:(bcc: Clive Broome/sdc)

Subject:  [PEDA] How to change Netlist lines back to solid lines?



Hello, there, Does anybody know why my netlist on the PCB suddenly turned
into hidden lines instead of solid lines? I did not change anything and not
sure how to changed them back to solid lines again. Thanks in advance.

Susan Lew
Quintron Systems, Inc









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Re: [PEDA] Monitors, WAS: laptops (again), Nvidia graphics, OS recommendations

[Bagotronix Tech Support]

> And better than what I am running now on my desktop, except I've got
> a 21 inch monitor and a bigger hard drive.

Me too.  You gotta love those 21 inch monitors!

In the spirit of "mine is bigger than yours" ;-)  , is anyone out there
using a 27 (or 25, etc.) inch monitor?  I've heard of these before, but
never seen one.  If so, how much do they cost, and do you like it?

Best regards,
Ivan Baggett
Bagotronix Inc.
website:  www.bagotronix.com


- Original Message -
From: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] laptops (again), Nvidia graphics, OS recommendations




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Re: [PEDA] URGENT!!!

[Bagotronix Tech Support]

Hey, Abdul:

If any ATS dollars are to be paid, they should be paid to you!  You are
better tech support for Protel than any corporate Protel tech support I've
seen.

In the EE dictionary, under Altium Total Support, it says "see Lomax, Abd
ul-Rahman".  ;-)

Best regards,
Ivan Baggett
Bagotronix Inc.
website:  www.bagotronix.com


- Original Message -
From: "Abd ul-Rahman Lomax" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] URGENT!!!



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Re: [PEDA] How to change Netlist lines back to solid lines?

[Clive . Broome]

Sounds like the connections have been turned off. You can get them back again by
doing the
following in PCB:

View -> Connections -> Show All


This menu also has provision to hide or view individual components nets or
global nets like power/ground.
Its useful when placing parts to see a less cluttered ratsnest.



___

Clive Broome
IDT Sydney Design CentrePh: +61 2 9763 3513
8 Bayswater Dr, HomebushFax:+61 2 9763 3409
Sydney,  NSW, 2127  Email:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Australia

___










"Shuping Lew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on 12/13/2001 04:06:41 AM

Please respond to "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To:   "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
cc:(bcc: Clive Broome/sdc)

Subject:  [PEDA] How to change Netlist lines back to solid lines?



Hello, there, Does anybody know why my netlist on the PCB suddenly turned
into hidden lines instead of solid lines? I did not change anything and not
sure how to changed them back to solid lines again. Thanks in advance.

Susan Lew
Quintron Systems, Inc









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Re: [PEDA] Keepouts & DRC

[Brad Velander]

Rene & others,
it is timely that Sean raised this issue because I have been
fighting with related issues. In my case I have a very complex board outline
where I have copied the board outline to the bottom layer and made it a
keepout and control my polygon outlines with respect to the board edge.
There are associated issues but I get lots of violations that I am trying to
eliminate with rules, seems to only work part of the time. I also believe
that I have found a bug relating to polygons while trying to accomplish
this, I will write about it in a day or two when the crunch is off.
In my case I have a number of drill holes at points along the board
outline. These drills are to relieve the board outline edge where the
overlying matrix has sharp corners that a router cannot achieve. Thus each
of these drill holes have no net, no plating, no pad (0mils). Each and
everyone of them causes a violation with the keepout.

The funniest thing is working over several variations of the PCB
design, some rules work in one copy of the board and while making the
variations to the next version the same existing rule will quit working all
of a sudden. I have also had the keepout lines showing violations along the
entire board outline because they are touching the keepout adjacent to them.
The listed violation lists the one keepout track segment and it's adjacent
connected track as the other violator in the pair. Go figure.

There are also other cases where a violation is not avoidable, so I
am trying to devise rules which will eliminate those violations. Sometimes
the rules work, sometimes they do not. At the moment I have databases which
have over 300 violations which seem to be indefinable in the DRC rules
set-up, most all are related to the keepout. I have even tried a rule which
states the keepout spacing to anything else (Board) is 0mils, no luck.

Sincerely,
Brad Velander.

Lead PCB Designer
Norsat International Inc.
#300 - 4401 Still Creek Drive,
Burnaby, B.C., Canada, V5C 6G9.
Tel   (604) 292-9089 (direct line)
Fax  (604) 292-9010
Website: www.norsat.com


-Original Message-
From: Rene Tschaggelar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 8:06 AM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: Re: [PEDA] Keepouts & DRC


You can draw a track manually over a keepout line.
The DRC signals a violation and you ignore it.
Is that what you want ?

Rene
-- 
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com

Sean James wrote:
> 
> Is there any way to ignore or bypass keepouts during a DRC?
>

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Re: [PEDA] laptops (again), Nvidia graphics, OS recommendations

[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]

At 10:51 AM 12/12/01 -0800, Buck Buchanan wrote:
>Ok, so I need to move my Protel99SE license to a laptop and obviously I
>need to match one to Protel.  I'm looking for opinions of any kind -
>from specific model/make references to generalized recommendations
>(I.E.: say away from ATI graphics, such & such brands don't work, my
>blah blah blah is rock solid, etc).

I bought an HP Omnibook at auction about 18 months ago, for $1780, and 
until this last weekend I had no problems with it. (When I returned from 
Atlanta the backlight was dead, perhaps it had some physical shock while I 
was carrying it around.)

It came with NT installed, and it had an XGA screen, which I considered 
minimal for Protel use. I added memory to it to take it up to 192 MB 
(included in the $1780). I had an uninstalled W2000 CD, so I upgraded the 
OS to W2000.

I don't know what kind of graphics chip it has, it's a little difficult to 
navigate around with a dead backlight. I got my files off because it comes 
up on the network without any problem

I just looked on ubid.com and saw an expiring auction for an HP Pavilion 
notebook with 15 inch XGA, 1 GHz Athlon processor, 256M SDRAM expandable to 
512M, 20G hard drive, included DVD, floppy, modem, 10/100 NIC, etc., and 
the current winning bid was $1076. It came with Windows ME, which is not 
recommended for Protel, but that is a $100 question, or a little more if 
you want to buy W2000.

Cheap. And better than what I am running now on my desktop, except I've got 
a 21 inch monitor and a bigger hard drive.

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Abdulrahman Lomax
Easthampton, Massachusetts USA

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Re: [PEDA] How to change Netlist lines back to solid lines?

[Dwight]

If you mean they completely disappeared, check View | Connections | Show
All.  The View | Connections sub-choices affect what are often called
"ratsnest" lines -- I'm assuming that's what you are referring to.  Also
verify that in Design | Options | Layers, Connections is checked.

Dwight.

> -Original Message-
> From: Shuping Lew [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 10:07 AM
> To: Protel EDA Forum
> Subject: [PEDA] How to change Netlist lines back to solid lines?
>
>
> Hello, there, Does anybody know why my netlist on the PCB
> suddenly turned
> into hidden lines instead of solid lines? I did not change
> anything and not
> sure how to changed them back to solid lines again. Thanks in advance.
>
> Susan Lew
> Quintron Systems, Inc
>
>
>

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Re: [PEDA] Protel does not really export to Orcad Capture PROTEL TO ORCAD CAPTURE

[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]

At 07:54 AM 12/12/01 +0100, Emanuel Zimmermann wrote:
>- Open the schematic
>- Under File-Menu choose Export
>- In the popped up sub-menu choose PCAD 2000 ASCI

If that worked for me I would have already done it. The menu option is not 
there in my SP6 installation. It might have been there at one time from the 
old prerelease PCAD translator.

I'll look into the other suggestions that were given

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Abdulrahman Lomax
Easthampton, Massachusetts USA

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Re: [PEDA] URGENT!!!

[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]

At 03:28 PM 12/12/01 -0500, Sean James wrote:
>What would keep a polygon pour from not forming if
>A. There are no keepouts.
>B. There are no areas present to create "dead" copper pours.
>C. I am pouring over the same net.

Try turning off "remove dead copper," see what you get. Dead copper is any 
polygon copper that has not connected to already-existing primitives, say a 
pad or via, assigned to the polygon net. If no such primitives exist, dead 
copper will be removed for the entire polygon, it is all "dead."

While "areas" of isolation can create dead copper, dead copper is the 
default condition if there are no places for the polygon to pick up its net.

There may be other possible causes, such as a very high setting for grid 
and/or fill track width. Normally, grid should be set to 0. Contrary to 
what one might guess, zero grid means that grid is ignored and track is 
spaced with maximum efficiency for total fill.

If you turn off "remove dead copper" in the polygon dialog and your polygon 
appears, then the problem is the lack of a seed primitive. If this does not 
fix the problem, it is from another source.




[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Abdulrahman Lomax
Easthampton, Massachusetts USA

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Re: [PEDA] Licence's

[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]

At 07:29 PM 12/12/01 +1300, Simon Peacock wrote:
>We've been told at work that Protel will no longer allow licences to be sold
>only that the company can change names!
>
>Anybody else heard about this ?? or brought a legal, upgradeable licences
>recently ?
>
>Its important to me as I have 2 spare 16 bit licences that I don't use
>anymore (I had 3 but still use one).

Altium cannot revoke the right of the user to sell current licenses, it is 
in the license agreement. It can, however, remove this right from the 
current license agreement. Read your license agreement!

It could also decide not to allow upgrade pricing for resold older 
licenses. However, if it does this, I would be recommending a class-action 
suit, or at least consultation regarding the possibility of winning such a 
suit. This is because Protel has represented that resold licenses were 
identical to new ones, that the new licensee stood in place of the old one. 
Disallowing upgrade would therefore be a taking because it would devastate 
the resale value of older licenses.

It's been about three months or so since I resold a license. I've known for 
quite some time that Altium was considering removing resellability. It 
puzzles me why they would do this, because every resold license means 
increased maintenance revenue. But bean counters tend to look at lost 
revenue in the short term more than at enriched revenue in the long term. 
So they can think, about a second-hand license sale, "Look at how much 
money we are losing." I've actually been told that by a Protel employee, 
even though I know that true resales (the kind that they would now 
disallow) are taking place in very small numbers, and I also know that 
immediate revenue to Protel *increased* because one company bought two 
licenses instead of one (and these licenses were being purchased from 
Protel at 50% off, the service bureau discount, which was later discontinued).

I'm getting a bad feeling about all this, I'm afraid.

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Abdulrahman Lomax
Easthampton, Massachusetts USA

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Re: [PEDA] URGENT!!!

[Sean James]

Never mind. It was a stupid rule.
Sean James
PCB Designer
Telecast Fiber Systems, Inc.
102 Grove Street
Worcester, MA 01605
(TEL) 508.754.4858 x33
(FAX) 413.541.6170

- Original Message - 
From: "Brendon Slade" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: [PEDA] URGENT!!!


> Has it successfully poured before now?
> 
> Is it just pouring outlines? - do you have "No hatching" selected?
> Do you have minimum primitive size set to something outrageous?
> 
> Just some real quick thought.
> 
> HTH
> Brendon.
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Sean James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 9:28 AM
> Subject: [PEDA] URGENT!!!
> 
> 
> What would keep a polygon pour from not forming if 
> A. There are no keepouts.
> B. There are no areas present to create "dead" copper pours.
> C. I am pouring over the same net.
> 
> Sean James
> PCB Designer
> Telecast Fiber Systems, Inc.
> 102 Grove Street
> Worcester, MA 01605
> (TEL) 508.754.4858 x33
> (FAX) 413.541.6170
> 
> 
> 
> 

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[PEDA] Signal Analysis ?

[Brooks,Bill]

I received this question from an associate who is evaluating the Protel
Software and thought I should post it to the forum. Your thoughts? 

Do you use the signal analysis on Protel?  If so, how well does it work?
We're finally getting up high enough that we've started checking the
signals, so a couple of the engineering were wondering about that
capability.


Bill Brooks 
PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.
DATRON WORLD COMMUNICATIONS, INC
3030 Enterprise Court 
Vista, CA 92083 
Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
IPC Designers Council, San Diego Chapter 
http://www.ipc.org/SanDiego/
http://home.fda.net/bbrooks/pca/pca.htm

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Re: [PEDA] URGENT!!!

[Patrick Adair]

Insure that polygons are not hidden under the show/hide options of the
display.

Patrick

-Original Message-
From: Narinder Kumar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 2:45 PM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: Re: [PEDA] URGENT!!!


May be there is nothing to connect No pad ) on that net in that area.

Narinder
- Original Message -
From: "Sean James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 3:28 PM
Subject: [PEDA] URGENT!!!


What would keep a polygon pour from not forming if
A. There are no keepouts.
B. There are no areas present to create "dead" copper pours.
C. I am pouring over the same net.

Sean James
PCB Designer
Telecast Fiber Systems, Inc.
102 Grove Street
Worcester, MA 01605
(TEL) 508.754.4858 x33
(FAX) 413.541.6170



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Re: [PEDA] laptops (again), Nvidia graphics, OS recommendations

[Robison Michael R CNIN]

laptops are available with plenty of computing power to handle
protel, but screen size is a limiting factor.  although you 
might consider 1024x768 on a 15" screen a minimum, you better
be VERY sure that the higher rez screens (dell is calling them
ultra xga, i believe, and they go to 1600x1200, i believe) work
for your eyes.  cuz lcd screens, unlike monitors, only have one
rez setting that they really look good at.  we got a new support
system in and it had a sony 21" flatscreen, and it wasn't clear
at any rez but 1600x1200, and i couldn't comfortably view it at
that high of rez, even with the super nice clarity.

miker




> Ok, so I need to move my Protel99SE license to a laptop and obviously I
> need to match one to Protel.  I'm looking for opinions of any kind -
> from specific model/make references to generalized recommendations

I've been quite pleased with my Dell Inspirion 400 MHz laptop and never had
a 
problem running Protel under W98 there. If you're going to do serious CAD on

a laptop, get the absolute best video you can find, though - I consider its 
1024x768 LCD on a 15" screen pretty much bare minimum.

As for OS, I've been running Protel on a new desktop under W2K for a couple 
weeks now and it has been completely solid. Come to think of it, that
desktop 
machine is a Dell as well. Not that it didn't have any problems with the 
array of incompatible software I need to run, but everything is now playing 
together nicely, although I don't have all the software I need installed
yet.

Your mileage may vary

Steve Hendrix


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Re: [PEDA] SCHEM GROUPING, DOES IT WORK?

[Wayne Bickers]

I am working on a simmilar design at the moment, and it seems that if you
place the components in the order that the parts were created in things seem
to work happliy enough.
To start with whenever I reannotated the design all the part numbers would
seeming swap of their own accord, but this seemed to help.

I also gave up on the 'group parts together if matched by' stuff.

Good luck

Wayne Bickers

> -Original Message-
> From: Colin Weber [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, 12 December 2001 2:46 p.m.
> To:   Protel EDA Forum
> Subject:  Re: [PEDA] SCHEM GROUPING, DOES IT WORK?
> 
> I had a go recently, but couldn't get it to work reliably or predictably.
> I gave up.
> 
> 
> At 05:39 PM 11/12/2001 -0800, you wrote:
> >I have a large 8 page schem with many multi part components
> >
> >annotate splattered the multi part groupings all over the place much as
> >might be expected
> >
> >noticing the 'group parts together if match by' in the annotate dialog
> >i went and put GRP1 in part field 8 for one section and GRP2 in the next
> >and so forth
> >
> >when i ran the annotation using 'group parts together' by BOTH Part Type
> >and Field 8, it made a bigger and potentially worse mess
> >
> >it did not honor the part type at all!
> >so res network 4.7K was RN2 and so was res network 100K RN2 !
> >
> >this is pretty bad IMHO
> >
> >has anyone actually made this work?
> >
> >if 2 parts have different part types and the same group by field content
> >shouldn't that work?
> >
> >i suppose i could put different strings in field 8 for different parts,
> >but i suppose i could manually annotate the thing too!
> >
> >Dennis Saputelli
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Colin Weber

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Re: [PEDA] laptops (again), Nvidia graphics, OS recommendations

[Watnoski, Michael]

Re: [PEDA] URGENT!!!

[Brendon Slade]

Has it successfully poured before now?

Is it just pouring outlines? - do you have "No hatching" selected?
Do you have minimum primitive size set to something outrageous?

Just some real quick thought.

HTH
Brendon.

- Original Message - 
From: "Sean James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 9:28 AM
Subject: [PEDA] URGENT!!!


What would keep a polygon pour from not forming if 
A. There are no keepouts.
B. There are no areas present to create "dead" copper pours.
C. I am pouring over the same net.

Sean James
PCB Designer
Telecast Fiber Systems, Inc.
102 Grove Street
Worcester, MA 01605
(TEL) 508.754.4858 x33
(FAX) 413.541.6170




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Re: [PEDA] URGENT!!!

[Darryl]

Perhaps the polygons have been turned off, this has caught me out when I
have not had enough coffee.

Tools/ Preferences/ Show/Hide -polygons 'hidden'

Cheers,
Darryl Harrison

-Original Message-
From: Sean James [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 9:28 AM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: [PEDA] URGENT!!!


What would keep a polygon pour from not forming if
A. There are no keepouts.
B. There are no areas present to create "dead" copper pours.
C. I am pouring over the same net.

Sean James
PCB Designer
Telecast Fiber Systems, Inc.
102 Grove Street
Worcester, MA 01605
(TEL) 508.754.4858 x33
(FAX) 413.541.6170


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Re: [PEDA] URGENT!!!

[Narinder Kumar]

May be there is nothing to connect No pad ) on that net in that area.

Narinder
- Original Message - 
From: "Sean James" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 3:28 PM
Subject: [PEDA] URGENT!!!


What would keep a polygon pour from not forming if 
A. There are no keepouts.
B. There are no areas present to create "dead" copper pours.
C. I am pouring over the same net.

Sean James
PCB Designer
Telecast Fiber Systems, Inc.
102 Grove Street
Worcester, MA 01605
(TEL) 508.754.4858 x33
(FAX) 413.541.6170



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Re: [PEDA] URGENT!!!

[Ted Tontis]

make sure that remove dead copper is not selected.

Ted

-Original Message-
From: Sean James [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 2:28 PM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: [PEDA] URGENT!!!


What would keep a polygon pour from not forming if 
A. There are no keepouts.
B. There are no areas present to create "dead" copper pours.
C. I am pouring over the same net.

Sean James
PCB Designer
Telecast Fiber Systems, Inc.
102 Grove Street
Worcester, MA 01605
(TEL) 508.754.4858 x33
(FAX) 413.541.6170



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Re: [PEDA] Altium Total Support Brochure

[Abd ul-Rahman Lomax]

At 07:03 PM 12/11/01 -0500, Brian Guralnick wrote:
> I would consider the ATS total support program if, 100% of the 
> support fee, since
>the first payment, went towards the purchase price of the next newer major 
>releases
>of Protel without any other incurred costs.

ATS support includes what were formerly upgrade charges. My only problem 
with ATS is that it has effectively doubled or tripled maintenance charges 
from prior levels, if the price is as announced.

I had an extensive discussion with an Altium employee, Matt Clark (sp?), 
who insisted that a $1995 annual cost for ATS was quite reasonable. He may 
be correct if the full price for Phoenix when it is released is $10,000, 
though, even then, $1495 would be closer to what I understand to be 
industry practice, and Protel has always been *better* than industry practice.

The reasonableness of the full price may be another matter. We'll have to 
see...

Mr. Clark emphasized that the burden of providing support for ancient 
versions of Protel was diverting resources from program development, and 
that with the ATS program, Altium would no longer be obligated to provide 
support without receiving corresponding revenue.

I asked him if Altium considered itself obligated to provide such continued 
support, in light of the representation, at the time of issuance of the 
software, that support was included in the purchase price at no additional 
charge. He replied that apparently the company lawyers had considered that 
there was no continued obligation. I agreed with this (as a legal 
possibility), but pointed out that dropping such support was therefore not 
a reason for converting to a maintenance fee system. Altium could simply 
drop the older-version support at a certain point.

Better, however, Altium could replace support by its personal staff, which 
is expensive, with user-based support, which would be very cheap. We 
already provide better support anyway. By facilitating user support, Altium 
would be fulfilling its implied contract with the users of older versions, 
for that contract does not specify or determine the means by which support 
is to be provided.

Given that Altium will be saving what was alleged to be a considerable sum 
of money by not providing support for older versions, further, a large 
increase in de facto maintenance costs would not seem to be justified. 
Certainly, if development expenditures are greatly increased, if the 
issuance and depth of service packs is improved, increased maintenance fees 
would be reasonable.

Now, Protel has always charged for what other companies call "maintenance," 
at least for the core of it, which is upgrade. But the Protel system 
essentially required the company to earn upgrade dollars by issuing 
upgrades perceived by the users to be significant improvements in the 
program. Paid-in-advance maintenance, however, disconnects performance from 
revenue. The situation is not as disconnected as it might seem, however, 
because if users do not see continued value from their ATS dollars, they 
will not renew it.

Incidentally, if there are any P98 users reading this, now, with the 20% 
sale, is probably a very good time to upgrade to 99SE. It is likely that 
the upgrade price will increase soon; this logic follows from the fact that 
the upgrade price for P98 is the same as the asserted maintenance price 
that all users will pay even if they are 99SE licensees at the present 
time. When I pointed out to Mr Clark that this devalued 99SE licenses 
(those issued before Oct 1), he was quick to note that those who upgrade 
now to 99SE will have an earlier expiration date on their ATS, whereas 99SE 
licensees will only pay ATS when Phoenix is available, plus they had the 
use of 99SE for longer.

At $1595, P98 upgrade is only $100 more than it was before the July 1 price 
increase, *and this now includes ATS for one year, i.e., Phoenix is 
included.* Don't wait, borrow the money if you have to!

Likewise 16-bit users can upgrade at $3195, which is only $200 more than 
the pre-July 1 price, plus it also includes ATS. Since already-existing 
99SE users may pay $1995 for ATS in order to get Phoenix, it only costs 
$1200 to catch up. It has not been that cheap for a long time. Autotrax 
licensees are the real winners in this.

Of course, if you are not using the software to make a living or a profit, 
even these relatively low prices are too high but for the die-hard 
legacy users, I really recommend taking a serious look at upgrading this month.

Right now, because of uncertainty in future pricing and ATS/upgrade costs, 
plus the current 20%-off sale, the second-hand license market is dead in 
the water. Second-hand 99SE licenses were selling a bit below 25% off fresh 
licenses, say about $5500 - $6000 but because a current full license from 
Protel is now $6395, and ATS could be $1995, parity for a second-hand 
license would now be $4400. I'd been about to pay $4500 for a 99SE license 
to r

Re: [PEDA] URGENT!!!

[Anthony Whitesell]

No source or "seed" for the polygon to attach to.  The polygon is isolated
from its net.  Try placing a via in the region of the polygon and then
double click the polygon and press return in order to get the polygon to
rebuild.  I have been dealing with this over the past few days.

Anthony Whitesell
Sunrise Labs


-Original Message-
From: Sean James [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 3:28 PM
To: Protel EDA Forum
Subject: [PEDA] URGENT!!!


What would keep a polygon pour from not forming if
A. There are no keepouts.
B. There are no areas present to create "dead" copper pours.
C. I am pouring over the same net.

Sean James
PCB Designer
Telecast Fiber Systems, Inc.
102 Grove Street
Worcester, MA 01605
(TEL) 508.754.4858 x33
(FAX) 413.541.6170



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Re: [PEDA] laptops (again), Nvidia graphics, OS recommendations

[HxEngr]

[PEDA] URGENT!!!

[Sean James]

Re: [PEDA] laptops (again), Nvidia graphics, OS recommendations

[Bagotronix Tech Support]

Lately I have been looking for a new laptop myself.  My research shows:

1)  They all have Windows XP - ugh!
2)  Some no longer have what I consider the "essential" ports (parallel,
serial)
3)  Some require external floppy drives or CD docking stations to get
software on/off them
4)  Some have unified RAM architecture which puts graphics RAM and system
RAM in the same RAM chips.

I have ruled out laptops that have items 2, 3, or 4 above.  I want all the
ports and drives available at all times without needing a docking station to
use them.  Unified RAM slows system performance down.

There seem to be some good offerings from HP (5425, 5445, etc.) and Sony
(FXA36).  I would stay away from Compaq, for reasons noted earlier in this
list.

I wonder if there will be a price drop on laptops after the Christmas
season?  Unsold inventory?

Best regards,
Ivan Baggett
Bagotronix Inc.
website:  www.bagotronix.com


- Original Message -
From: "Buck Buchanan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Protel EDA Forum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 1:51 PM
Subject: [PEDA] laptops (again), Nvidia graphics, OS recommendations


> Hi all,
>
> I hope you'll excuse this tired subject on the basis that A) an archive
> search of "laptop" and "notebook" came up almost nil (which seems odd
> since I know this has been discussed), and B) computers change so fast
> that last years thread is likely not too relevant.
>
> Ok, so I need to move my Protel99SE license to a laptop and obviously I
> need to match one to Protel.  I'm looking for opinions of any kind -
> from specific model/make references to generalized recommendations
> (I.E.: say away from ATI graphics, such & such brands don't work, my
> blah blah blah is rock solid, etc).
>
> I have been reading the list and believe the following statments to be
> true - but would like to confirm that:
> -Nvidia graphics in general have been performing well w/Protel (since
> I'm not ganna find Matrox on a laptop).
> -Windoze 2000 Pro is the tried and true OS for Protel.
> -Although not "certified to run Protel," XP has been slightly more
> stable than Win2000 (with Protel) and maybe I should just hold my nose
> and get XP.
>
> If it's relevant to your opinions, know that (for me)
> reliability/compatability is key while performance is secondary.  Price
> *is* an object - I don't make my living w/Protel alone.  For at least
> the next year or so the majority of my designs are *typically* only two
> copper layers, <1000 components, and not larger than say 6" x 9".  I do
> use the autorouter and simulator (although I stink at using both of
> them).  This box will also run your average assortment of random apps -
> Excel, Word, Camtastic!, Photoshop, Adobe, etc.
>
> Thanks all for any opinions in this matter!
>
> -Buck-
>

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Re: [PEDA] Connecting Power

[Peter Bennett]

SHAWN wrote:
> 
> I'm sure this question has been asked before, but here it is again:
> 
> In some cases I'm unable to connect power to a chip. For example, I'm trying to 
>power the hidden VS power-type pin of a LMD18200T(11) chip with +38V. If I unhide the 
>pin, it won't connect to a wire, and if I connect a VS port to a +38V port that, or 
>course, gives a "2-ports-on-the-same-net" error. I remember learning the workaround 
>in college, but can't remember what that workaround was.

You should be able to connect to an un-hidden power pin.

Check the schematic symbol carefully to see that the pin ends on a grid
point, and is placed right-way-around.

-- 
Peter Bennett
TRIUMF
4004 Wesbrook Mall, Vancouver, BC, Canada  
GPS and NMEA info and programs: 
http://vancouver-webpages.com/peter/index.html

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[PEDA] laptops (again), Nvidia graphics, OS recommendations

[Buck Buchanan]

Hi all,

I hope you'll excuse this tired subject on the basis that A) an archive
search of "laptop" and "notebook" came up almost nil (which seems odd
since I know this has been discussed), and B) computers change so fast
that last years thread is likely not too relevant.

Ok, so I need to move my Protel99SE license to a laptop and obviously I
need to match one to Protel.  I'm looking for opinions of any kind -
from specific model/make references to generalized recommendations
(I.E.: say away from ATI graphics, such & such brands don't work, my
blah blah blah is rock solid, etc).  

I have been reading the list and believe the following statments to be
true - but would like to confirm that:
-Nvidia graphics in general have been performing well w/Protel (since
I'm not ganna find Matrox on a laptop).
-Windoze 2000 Pro is the tried and true OS for Protel.
-Although not "certified to run Protel," XP has been slightly more
stable than Win2000 (with Protel) and maybe I should just hold my nose
and get XP.

If it's relevant to your opinions, know that (for me)
reliability/compatability is key while performance is secondary.  Price
*is* an object - I don't make my living w/Protel alone.  For at least
the next year or so the majority of my designs are *typically* only two
copper layers, <1000 components, and not larger than say 6" x 9".  I do
use the autorouter and simulator (although I stink at using both of
them).  This box will also run your average assortment of random apps -
Excel, Word, Camtastic!, Photoshop, Adobe, etc.

Thanks all for any opinions in this matter!

-Buck-

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[PEDA] How to change Netlist lines back to solid lines?

[Shuping Lew]

Warning
Unable to process data: 
multipart/mixed;boundary="=_NextPart_000_0004_01C182F4.B2BF7F10"

Re: [PEDA] Connecting Power

[Rene Tschaggelar]

Forget those built in libraries. They are though for demo purposes.
Draw your own.

Rene
-- 
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com

SHAWN wrote:
> 
> I'm sure this question has been asked before, but here it is again:
> 
> In some cases I'm unable to connect power to a chip. For example, I'm trying to 
>power the hidden VS power-type pin of a LMD18200T(11) chip with +38V. If I unhide the 
>pin, it won't connect to a wire, and if I connect a VS port to a +38V port that, or 
>course, gives a "2-ports-on-the-same-net" error. I remember learning the workaround 
>in college, but can't remember what that workaround was.
> 
> Shawn

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Re: [PEDA] Keepouts & DRC

[Rene Tschaggelar]

You can draw a track manually over a keepout line.
The DRC signals a violation and you ignore it.
Is that what you want ?

Rene
-- 
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com

Sean James wrote:
> 
> Is there any way to ignore or bypass keepouts during a DRC?
>

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Re: [PEDA] Connecting Power

[Emanuel Zimmermann]

I'm sure if this question has been asked before, but here's my
suggestion:

Check the library symbol of your part for
  - which end of the pin is the connectivity end
  - proper placement of the connectivity end on a grid point

Or even better, redraw the symbol without any hidden pins. Eventually
even a separate power part in a multipart component.

Good luck,
Emanuel

SHAWN wrote:
> 
> I'm sure this question has been asked before, but here it is again:
> 
> In some cases I'm unable to connect power to a chip. For example, I'm trying to 
>power the hidden VS power-type pin of a LMD18200T(11) chip with +38V. If I unhide the 
>pin, it won't connect to a wire, and if I connect a VS port to a +38V port that, or 
>course, gives a "2-ports-on-the-same-net" error. I remember learning the workaround 
>in college, but can't remember what that workaround was.
> 
> Shawn

-- 


MPL AG  www.mpl.ch
Emanuel Zimmermann  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manager R&D Phone: +41 (0)56 483 34 34
Taefernstrasse 20   Fax:   +41 (0)56 493 30 20

CH-5405 Daettwil


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Re: [PEDA] Antwort: Keepouts & DRC

[Emanuel Zimmermann]

Maybe that you can setup design rules to allow 0 or less clearance to
keepouts. During layout you have to uncheck these rules in the DRC setup
to ignore them. Then check it for the DRC.

But be careful, such practices are very dangerous! And, like Gisbert I'm
wondering the reason for this.

Emanuel

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> Not to my knowledge, but why would you want to do that?
> 
> Gisbert Auge
> N.A.T. GmbH
> 
> 
> "Sean James"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> fiber.com>   Kopie:
>  Thema:  [PEDA] Keepouts & DRC
> 12.12.2001 13:27
> Bitte antworten
> an "Protel EDA
> Forum"
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any way to ignore or bypass keepouts during a DRC?
> 
> Sean James
> PCB Designer
> Telecast Fiber Systems, Inc.
> 102 Grove Street
> Worcester, MA 01605
> (TEL) 508.754.4858 x33
> (FAX) 413.541.6170

-- 


MPL AG  www.mpl.ch
Emanuel Zimmermann  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manager R&D Phone: +41 (0)56 483 34 34
Taefernstrasse 20   Fax:   +41 (0)56 493 30 20

CH-5405 Daettwil


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[PEDA] Connecting Power

[SHAWN]

[PEDA] Antwort: Keepouts & DRC

[ga]

Not to my knowledge, but why would you want to do that?

Gisbert Auge
N.A.T. GmbH



   
   
"Sean James"   
   
  
fiber.com>   Kopie:
   
 Thema:  [PEDA] Keepouts & DRC 
   
12.12.2001 13:27   
   
Bitte antworten
   
an "Protel EDA 
   
Forum" 
   
   
   
   
   




Is there any way to ignore or bypass keepouts during a DRC?

Sean James
PCB Designer
Telecast Fiber Systems, Inc.
102 Grove Street
Worcester, MA 01605
(TEL) 508.754.4858 x33
(FAX) 413.541.6170





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[PEDA] Keepouts & DRC

[Sean James]

Re: [PEDA] Antwort: Altium Total Support Brochure

[Kathy Quinlan]

Is why I use Atmel Uc's the assembler IDE is free, and a 2k limited C
compiler from IAR is free too :o)

Regards,

Kat.


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Re: [PEDA] Antwort: Altium Total Support Brochure

[ga]

You wrote on 12.12.2001 10:15:02:

>Bastards... Do they want to sell ICs or software? It always makes me
>mad.
>
>Rant off... goodnight..
>
>Tony

Both, Tony, ICs and SW. Therefore, whereever possible, I implement only
devices into my designs which supply development software for free.

Gisbert



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Re: [PEDA] Altium Total Support Brochure

[Tony Karavidas]

Speaking of Altera, I own the same thing, but I stopped paying just before
Quartus came out. What pisses me off royally is that I bought it because I
was doing a Flex6024 design and the "free" version didn't support it. Now it
does! Bastards... Do they want to sell ICs or software? It always makes me
mad.

Rant off... goodnight..

Tony



> -Original Message-
> From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 4:04 PM
> To: Protel EDA Forum
> Subject: Re: [PEDA] Altium Total Support Brochure
>
>
> Well, I've given it some thought.
>
> I would consider the ATS total support program if, 100% of
> the support fee, since
> the first payment, went towards the purchase price of the next
> newer major releases
> of Protel without any other incurred costs.
>
> This would be almost similar my Altera yearly license fee, it
> covers all newer
> releases of Quartus & Max+Plus combined without any additional costs.
>
> 
> Brian Guralnick

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