subject:"\[RBW\] Re\: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor"

* Modern cycling jerseys are, IME, very comfortable.ˆ*

Andy: first, not at all a snark attack.

I am desperately seeking hot weather jerseys that don't stink after 15
minutes of riding. Wool is no good for me in temperatures much over 70F. No
one I know of makes cotton knit jerseys. Can you recommend a ss lightweight
jersey, cost no object, that is relatively odorless?

Thanks.

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[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-26 Thread Kieran J

Late to this thread - interesting and well-articulated perspectives all 
around, as per RBWOB usual.

For me, the crux of the issue is that people should find a system that 
works for them, go with it, and own it. For me, that extends throughout 
life and is an intrinsic part of living in a tolerant and diverse society. 
The drama and judgement only reinforces tunnel vision and defensiveness. 

And I don't mean to let Grant et al. off the hook; there is a bit of 
swagger from that camp as well, as others have mentioned. However I think 
RBW's relaxed vibe, practical approach and earnest business model is worth 
a lot in today's world.

I'm all bemused eyerolls when I encounter people that are so up in arms 
with what others are doing. Get over yourself and go have fun!

KJ


On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 4:08:44 PM UTC-5, Jon in the foothills of 
Central Colorado wrote:

 In the new Adventure Cyclist Mag

 PETERSEN RESPONDS TO READER

 LETTER ‘UNRACING? UNCOOL’

 Racing attitudes, bikes, clothing,

 and diets have become the norm and

 normal, and are so pervasive that many

 adult cyclists, maybe even some you

 know, accept the racing standards as

 the only legitimate way to be a serious

 adult cyclist. What I tried to do in the

 book *Just Ride *— and what we do here

 at Rivendell Bicycle Works — is offer

 an alternative, a model to other adult

 cyclists that there is another way. This

 letter is not an ad for either. I’m simply

 saying where I come from and what I

 do.

 We are the mice trying to squeak

 above the roar at the base of the

 waterfall. It is no time to be wishywashy,

 but I try hard to not offend.

 Inevitably, a declarative position on

 any matter is bound to raise a few

 hackles with those who have a different

 position, but it still hurts to be judged

 by a stranger who would probably like

 me, and whom I’d surely like, in person.

 A good number of our customers are

 middle-aged and older folks trying to

 fit in some activity as they age. They

 often have the means, and they’re

 influenced by what they read and see

 that promotes racers as a good model —

 and that’s something I don’t agree with.

 They shop as innocents and come

 out of it dressed like racers and riding

 bikes that are not only inappropriate

 for the kind of riding they do, but are,

 on top of that and more egregiously, not

 comfortable. We undo that. You may

 see ego or evil behind it, but I don’t

 feel either of those. I see racing and

 racers as fringe and am simply trying

 to legitimize an alternative point of

 view, one that I feel strongly about. I’m

 trying — certainly not singlehandedly —

 to make people feel good about riding

 without dressing in pro-team gear and

 copying so many other affectations of

 the racer, and that is what Unracing and

 *Just Ride *and Rivendell Bicycle Works is

 all about. We’re nobody’s enemy. Some

 of my best friends pedal cliplessly and

 in spandex. It’s cool.

 Grant Petersen

 Walnut Creek, California


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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-26 Thread Marc Irwin

This reminds me of the first charity ride I did on my Hillborne (with Bosco 
Bars).  A rider came up beside me, asked about the bike, then asked why 
anybody would want a bike like that?  I said,  I can take this to the 
grocery store, ride a metric century comfortably, or take a trip over the 
Himalayas.  What can you do with that? (pointing to his crabon crotch 
rocket).  He just shook his head and rode away.   I passed he and his crew 
of spandex hamsters after the second rest stop.  They tend to start loosing 
it at 30 miles.  One of these days I'm going to do one in a pair of cutoffs 
(diamond gusset), a nascar t shirt and Cubs batting helmet just for fun.  I 
might even roll a pack of Winstons up in my sleeve for good measure.

Marc

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 12:56:19 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:



 On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite addison...@gmail.com 
 javascript: wrote:

 I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, while I 
 can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the 
 niche.  Just like the extreme downhillers or whatever they are called.  I 
 just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't also 
 accept the benefits of a fatter tire  


 Not true where I am in Silicon Valley . If I show up at the start of one 
 of my (touring) club's rides, a ride meant for people riding a moderate 
 pace, and I see twenty other riders, there will be one steel bike, and I'll 
 be riding it. There will be no bikes that take tires wider than 28 mm, 
 other than my Roadeo. Typically riders have 25 mm tires pumped up rock 
 hard.  Everyone will have lycra shorts including me (haven't found anything 
 else that works for me) and everyone else will be wearing roadie jerseys 
 with sublimated graphics.

 There's one club ride I go on, an easy-paced ride that I do for 
 camaraderie. Most of the riders are like me, over 50, in a lot of cases 
 well over 50. But there is one young woman who shows up on an old 
 Stumpjumper with flat bars, wearing street clothes. Although she has no 
 trouble keeping up, and she has a fine bike, almost every time she has 
 shown up at a ride I'm on someone will explain to her that her bike is 
 wrong and she needs a different one.

 -- 
 -- Anne Paulson

 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.
  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-26 Thread Andrew Marchant-Shapiro

Patrick:

The two Steves speak the truth.  I generally get free jerseys from charity 
rides or pick some up from Long's when they're on sale.  I've had some 
smell a little after a century in humid Wisconsin summer weather, but not 
badly.

It may be that some of us generate more toxic sweat than others--but 
personally, I don't.  Sheep or plastic, they all seem to smell the same 
when I'm done.  Lycra shorts I wash after a long ride (I don't wear them 
for short rides) just as I would anything else I had used in those 
conditions.

(I know Bill Cosby is a *persona non grata*  these days, but I can't help 
but think of his remarks about his mother always insisting that he wear 
clean underwear, and imagining her reaction when a police officer tells her 
he's been in an accident:  Did he have clean underwear? Yes.  We found 
it in the glove compartment.)


On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:27:06 AM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:

  On 02/26/2015 09:22 AM, Patrick Moore wrote:
  
  * Modern cycling jerseys are, IME, very comfortable.ˆ*
  
  Andy: first, not at all a snark attack. 

  I am desperately seeking hot weather jerseys that don't stink after 15 
 minutes of riding. Wool is no good for me in temperatures much over 70F. No 
 one I know of makes cotton knit jerseys. Can you recommend a ss lightweight 
 jersey, cost no object, that is relatively odorless?

  
  
 All I can say is, my lycra jerseys do not stink -- not after 15 min, and 
 pretty much not after a whole day of riding.  And I do not have to tell you 
 what metro DC summer conditions are like.




 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-26 Thread Andrew Marchant-Shapiro

No, it was just a low-grade double, IIRC.  This would have been some time 
around '97.

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 7:24:00 AM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:

  On 02/26/2015 04:10 AM, Andrew Marchant-Shapiro wrote:
  
 Grant is a marketeer and an interesting person.  To some extent, he *is* 
 trying to get people to drink his Kool-Aid because that's his market 
 space.  I well recall when he was selling an older Campy front derailer.  
 It had an oversized clamp, so he sold it with a plastic sleeve that you 
 used over the seat tube to correctly fit it.  It was the best thing ever, 
 and I've seen him do that repeatedly with old stock items.  So to some 
 extent, yeah, he's just trying to move stock.  


 I don't recall this one, but if it was the Racing T front derailleur then 
 *Hell 
 yes*, it was the best thing ever for 110/74 compact triples and the 
 fact that you needed a shim to get it to fit the seat tube is just the 
 price of doing business.  I still marvel at this: why on earth would 
 Campagnolo, a company with a proven track record of no interest or 
 expertise with touring gearing produce what is by far the best front 
 derailleur for such gearing I've ever seen?  So, if it was that one, it 
 wasn't just trying to move stock at all.


  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor


On 02/26/2015 09:22 AM, Patrick Moore wrote:

/ Modern cycling jerseys are, IME, very comfortable.ˆ/
/
/
Andy: first, not at all a snark attack.

I am desperately seeking hot weather jerseys that don't stink after 15 
minutes of riding. Wool is no good for me in temperatures much over 
70F. No one I know of makes cotton knit jerseys. Can you recommend a 
ss lightweight jersey, cost no object, that is relatively odorless?





All I can say is, my lycra jerseys do not stink -- not after 15 min, and 
pretty much not after a whole day of riding.  And I do not have to tell 
you what metro DC summer conditions are like.





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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-26 Thread islaysteve

I'm another Steve in the DC Metro area and my experience from when I was riding 
regularly in the summer was similar to Steve P's.  The shorts were ride once 
and wash, for anti fungal reasons, but jerseys did not necessarily need to be 
washed every time.  I used mostly Pearl Isumi jerseys, in addition to some 
others.  Full disclosure, I use antibacterial soap for showering but do not use 
an antiperspirant (allergic to that).  To tie in with current topic, my 
clothing for longer rides will not/has not changed much since I got my Bleriot 
and started reading GP's writings, other than to tone down the colors a bit.  I 
have taken his advise re shoes, and find the Thin Gripsters to be quite 
adequate with rubber-soled casual shoes.  I still prefer cycling shorts since 
anything baggy tends to snag on the saddle horn when remounting after a stop.
Steve A

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

Thanks. Oh well. My 2 Pearl Izumi summer jerseys stink as quickly as the
others. Wool, OTOH, can go for 8 hours of riding without offending the
nearby public (I sweat in winter, too). And yes, I do bathe daily -- my
cotton shirts can go at least 2 full day wearings without being offensive.

Moving on: if anyone has recommendations for cycling-cut summer jerseys --
particularly, trim fit and rear pockets -- that don't stink even for the
smelly bodied, I'd like to hear them.

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:47 AM, Andrew Marchant-Shapiro 
marchantshap...@gmail.com wrote:

 Patrick:

 The two Steves speak the truth.  I generally get free jerseys from charity
 rides or pick some up from Long's when they're on sale.  I've had some
 smell a little after a century in humid Wisconsin summer weather, but not
 badly.

 It may be that some of us generate more toxic sweat than others--but
 personally, I don't.  Sheep or plastic, they all seem to smell the same
 when I'm done.  Lycra shorts I wash after a long ride (I don't wear them
 for short rides) just as I would anything else I had used in those
 conditions.

 (I know Bill Cosby is a *persona non grata*  these days, but I can't help
 but think of his remarks about his mother always insisting that he wear
 clean underwear, and imagining her reaction when a police officer tells her
 he's been in an accident:  Did he have clean underwear? Yes.  We found
 it in the glove compartment.)



 On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:27:06 AM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:

  On 02/26/2015 09:22 AM, Patrick Moore wrote:

  * Modern cycling jerseys are, IME, very comfortable.ˆ*

  Andy: first, not at all a snark attack.

  I am desperately seeking hot weather jerseys that don't stink after 15
 minutes of riding. Wool is no good for me in temperatures much over 70F. No
 one I know of makes cotton knit jerseys. Can you recommend a ss lightweight
 jersey, cost no object, that is relatively odorless?



 All I can say is, my lycra jerseys do not stink -- not after 15 min, and
 pretty much not after a whole day of riding.  And I do not have to tell you
 what metro DC summer conditions are like.




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circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-26 Thread Brewster Fong


On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 3:15:16 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:

 On 02/25/2015 05:39 PM, Brewster Fong wrote: 
  Now, this is nothing but anedotal and just one example, but for my 
  buddy, the right tool got him going! I don't care what it was made out 
  of, but the supposedly stiff, uncomfortable aluminum frame road bike 
  got him hooked and we love it! 

 Some of those Alu Specialized road bikes have riding positions very 
 similar to what GP was advocating back in 2002.  I know quite a few 
 people who have them and like them a lot.  I think the Zerts inserts are 
 pure placebo and the bikes would be better off with something wider than 
 a 25mm tire, but for something you can just walk into a LBS and get for 
 (by modern standards) relatively cheap money, there are lots worse bikes 
 people could buy. 

 Yes, it is not just Specialized, but all the biggies - Trek, C'dale and 
Giant to name a few - now offer more upright riding position for all 
their bikes.  For example, Trek sells its carbon bikes with a H1 fit. 
That's the standard racing fit with low, low bars and super high saddles.  
BUT, they also sell the same frames/bikes with a H2 fit that has higher 
bars and a more upright riding position. In fact, this is how the 
new 10.25lb Trek Emondo, or whatever it is called,  is being offered. Then 
again, if you're really going to spend $15k for a bike, it better be 
available in any position that you want! 
 
I believe the credit for this positioning goes to Grant and his famous 
raise dat stem article that came out in the late 90s?!  Now, if we can 
only do something about G's fetish with double top tubes (on a 56cm frame!) 
and carbon bashing, we might have somethingGood Luck! 

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[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-26 Thread Daniel D.

Things are nicer when people are advocates for what they like rather than 
opponents of what they dislike.   No need to come across as mean or 
judgmental( Grant's own words in the intro to Just Ride) we're just 
talking about bikes...

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RE: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-26 Thread Allingham II, Thomas J

Annnd we have reached the dead of winter!

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Lindsay
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 2:13 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

I own a 56cm Rivendell with a second top tube.  Brewster Fong thinks my bicycle 
is stupid and worthy of ridicule.  I think my bicycle is beautiful and I love 
riding it.

My 
Bombahttps://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/8474652710/in/set-72157632769612752

Brewster Fong thinks it is wrong for Grant to insult carbon fiber, but he 
doesn't mind insulting my bike.  I get it!  Brewster Fong says whatever gets 
you riding!, but obviously doesn't really mean it.  I really mean it.  If you 
love your bike, that's awesome!

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:46:43 AM UTC-8, Brewster Fong wrote:

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 3:15:16 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:
On 02/25/2015 05:39 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:
 Now, this is nothing but anedotal and just one example, but for my
 buddy, the right tool got him going! I don't care what it was made out
 of, but the supposedly stiff, uncomfortable aluminum frame road bike
 got him hooked and we love it!

Some of those Alu Specialized road bikes have riding positions very
similar to what GP was advocating back in 2002.  I know quite a few
people who have them and like them a lot.  I think the Zerts inserts are
pure placebo and the bikes would be better off with something wider than
a 25mm tire, but for something you can just walk into a LBS and get for
(by modern standards) relatively cheap money, there are lots worse bikes
people could buy.
Yes, it is not just Specialized, but all the biggies - Trek, C'dale and Giant 
to name a few - now offer more upright riding position for all their bikes.  
For example, Trek sells its carbon bikes with a H1 fit. That's the standard 
racing fit with low, low bars and super high saddles.  BUT, they also sell the 
same frames/bikes with a H2 fit that has higher bars and a more upright riding 
position. In fact, this is how the new 10.25lb Trek Emondo, or whatever it is 
called,  is being offered. Then again, if you're really going to spend $15k for 
a bike, it better be available in any position that you want!

I believe the credit for this positioning goes to Grant and his famous raise 
dat stem article that came out in the late 90s?!  Now, if we can only do 
something about G's fetish with double top tubes (on a 56cm frame!) and carbon 
bashing, we might have somethingGood Luck!
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-26 Thread Brewster Fong


On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 11:13:15 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:

 I own a 56cm Rivendell with a second top tube.  Brewster Fong thinks my 
 bicycle is stupid and worthy of ridicule.  I think my bicycle is beautiful 
 and I love riding it.  

 My Bomba 
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/8474652710/in/set-72157632769612752

 Brewster Fong thinks it is wrong for Grant to insult carbon fiber, but he 
 doesn't mind insulting my bike.  I get it!  Brewster Fong says whatever 
 gets you riding!, but obviously doesn't really mean it.  I really mean it. 
  If you love your bike, 

 
You're right Bill. I should have clarified, I wasn't talking about the 
looks of double top tubes, but the *need* for it, especially on a 56cm 
bike?  Maybe you can tell us how wonderful it rides compared to a single 
top tube. Personally, I never ridden a bike with two tts, but think it 
would stiffen the bike. Wrong?  Hey, since my foot is in my mouth, maybe 
the double tt helps the bike plane!  Further, the double tt is not 
limited to Rivendell, there's a guy at my work who rides a Sycip with 2 tt:
 
http://sycip.com/project/cruiser-town-bikes/
 
Btw, I have a 18 year old carbon bike that many people find ugly! It's a 
Calfee with the gussets (webbing). There are many, many people out there 
who think its one of the ugliest bikes made. I agree, its not the 
prettiest, but man, it is so comfortable to ride!  Oh yeah, and very 
durable too! 
 
Nevertheless, I still think its wrong for Grant to insult carbon. Hey, he 
makes a good product and should be proclaiming the virtues about steel and 
his bikes. After all, doesn't he have like a 3 year wait list for one of 
his customs?  
 
So go enjoy your bike! Since it doesn't rain here any more, that means more 
time to ride! Good Luck! 
 
 

 that's awesome!  

 Bill Lindsay
 El Cerrito, CA

 On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:46:43 AM UTC-8, Brewster Fong wrote:


 On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 3:15:16 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar 
 wrote:

 On 02/25/2015 05:39 PM, Brewster Fong wrote: 
  Now, this is nothing but anedotal and just one example, but for my 
  buddy, the right tool got him going! I don't care what it was made out 
  of, but the supposedly stiff, uncomfortable aluminum frame road bike 
  got him hooked and we love it! 

 Some of those Alu Specialized road bikes have riding positions very 
 similar to what GP was advocating back in 2002.  I know quite a few 
 people who have them and like them a lot.  I think the Zerts inserts are 
 pure placebo and the bikes would be better off with something wider than 
 a 25mm tire, but for something you can just walk into a LBS and get for 
 (by modern standards) relatively cheap money, there are lots worse bikes 
 people could buy. 

 Yes, it is not just Specialized, but all the biggies - Trek, C'dale and 
 Giant to name a few - now offer more upright riding position for all 
 their bikes.  For example, Trek sells its carbon bikes with a H1 fit. 
 That's the standard racing fit with low, low bars and super high saddles.  
 BUT, they also sell the same frames/bikes with a H2 fit that has higher 
 bars and a more upright riding position. In fact, this is how the 
 new 10.25lb Trek Emondo, or whatever it is called,  is being offered. Then 
 again, if you're really going to spend $15k for a bike, it better be 
 available in any position that you want! 
  
 I believe the credit for this positioning goes to Grant and his famous 
 raise dat stem article that came out in the late 90s?!  Now, if we can 
 only do something about G's fetish with double top tubes (on a 56cm frame!) 
 and carbon bashing, we might have somethingGood Luck! 



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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-26 Thread Jim Bronson

Craig Calfee is one of the few guys I'd trust to sell me a crabon fiber
bike appropriate for my weight and intended usage.

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 1:49 PM, Brewster Fong bfd...@gmail.com wrote:


 On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 11:13:15 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:

 I own a 56cm Rivendell with a second top tube.  Brewster Fong thinks my
 bicycle is stupid and worthy of ridicule.  I think my bicycle is beautiful
 and I love riding it.

 My Bomba
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/8474652710/in/set-72157632769612752

 Brewster Fong thinks it is wrong for Grant to insult carbon fiber, but he
 doesn't mind insulting my bike.  I get it!  Brewster Fong says whatever
 gets you riding!, but obviously doesn't really mean it.  I really mean
 it.  If you love your bike,


 You're right Bill. I should have clarified, I wasn't talking about the
 looks of double top tubes, but the *need* for it, especially on a 56cm
 bike?  Maybe you can tell us how wonderful it rides compared to a single
 top tube. Personally, I never ridden a bike with two tts, but think it
 would stiffen the bike. Wrong?  Hey, since my foot is in my mouth, maybe
 the double tt helps the bike plane!  Further, the double tt is not
 limited to Rivendell, there's a guy at my work who rides a Sycip with 2 tt:

 http://sycip.com/project/cruiser-town-bikes/

 Btw, I have a 18 year old carbon bike that many people find ugly! It's a
 Calfee with the gussets (webbing). There are many, many people out there
 who think its one of the ugliest bikes made. I agree, its not the
 prettiest, but man, it is so comfortable to ride!  Oh yeah, and very
 durable too!

 Nevertheless, I still think its wrong for Grant to insult carbon. Hey, he
 makes a good product and should be proclaiming the virtues about steel and
 his bikes. After all, doesn't he have like a 3 year wait list for one of
 his customs?

 So go enjoy your bike! Since it doesn't rain here any more, that means
 more time to ride! Good Luck!



 that's awesome!

 Bill Lindsay
 El Cerrito, CA

 On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:46:43 AM UTC-8, Brewster Fong wrote:


 On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 3:15:16 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar
 wrote:

 On 02/25/2015 05:39 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:
  Now, this is nothing but anedotal and just one example, but for my
  buddy, the right tool got him going! I don't care what it was made
 out
  of, but the supposedly stiff, uncomfortable aluminum frame road bike
  got him hooked and we love it!

 Some of those Alu Specialized road bikes have riding positions very
 similar to what GP was advocating back in 2002.  I know quite a few
 people who have them and like them a lot.  I think the Zerts inserts
 are
 pure placebo and the bikes would be better off with something wider
 than
 a 25mm tire, but for something you can just walk into a LBS and get for
 (by modern standards) relatively cheap money, there are lots worse
 bikes
 people could buy.

 Yes, it is not just Specialized, but all the biggies - Trek, C'dale and
 Giant to name a few - now offer more upright riding position for all
 their bikes.  For example, Trek sells its carbon bikes with a H1 fit.
 That's the standard racing fit with low, low bars and super high saddles.
 BUT, they also sell the same frames/bikes with a H2 fit that has higher
 bars and a more upright riding position. In fact, this is how the
 new 10.25lb Trek Emondo, or whatever it is called,  is being offered. Then
 again, if you're really going to spend $15k for a bike, it better be
 available in any position that you want!

 I believe the credit for this positioning goes to Grant and his famous
 raise dat stem article that came out in the late 90s?!  Now, if we can
 only do something about G's fetish with double top tubes (on a 56cm frame!)
 and carbon bashing, we might have somethingGood Luck!

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Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

Brewster

My Bombadil is quite stiff.  Bikes that plane are really flexible.  My 
Bombadil does not plane.  My Rawland Stag with 7/4/7 standard diameter top 
tube and downtube does plane.  My Bombadil is very stout.  I use it for 
camping and trail riding.  At times, I am carrying most of the gear for a 
family of four.  When my bike weighs over 90lbs, the extra few ounces of 
the second top tube does not bother me.  Of my 10 bikes, my Bombadil is 
definitely the most stout.  My Ibis Tandem is also very stiff, with 
radically oversized steel tubing, in addition to a long additional diagonal 
tube between the top tube and downtube.

For what it's worth, I share your opinion that a 59cm Soma San Marcos, 
which is supposed to be a sporty road bike, maybe doesn't need a second top 
tube.  But in general, when a bike doesn't appeal to me, I just don't buy 
it, and leave it at that.  Maybe somebody else does love it and wants to 
buy it, and if that gets them riding, why not!

For what it's worth 2, I'm kind of glad my 56cm Sam Hillborne doesn't have 
a second top tube, because in my application I don't need it.  That bike is 
currently built up quite light, and I just put a pair of 700x38 extralight 
Barlow Pass tires on it.  That bike should really sing on the road now! 
 I'm excited.  



On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 11:49:11 AM UTC-8, Brewster Fong wrote:


 On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 11:13:15 AM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:

 I own a 56cm Rivendell with a second top tube.  Brewster Fong thinks my 
 bicycle is stupid and worthy of ridicule.  I think my bicycle is beautiful 
 and I love riding it.  

 My Bomba 
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/8474652710/in/set-72157632769612752

 Brewster Fong thinks it is wrong for Grant to insult carbon fiber, but he 
 doesn't mind insulting my bike.  I get it!  Brewster Fong says whatever 
 gets you riding!, but obviously doesn't really mean it.  I really mean it. 
  If you love your bike, 

  
 You're right Bill. I should have clarified, I wasn't talking about the 
 looks of double top tubes, but the *need* for it, especially on a 56cm 
 bike?  Maybe you can tell us how wonderful it rides compared to a single 
 top tube. Personally, I never ridden a bike with two tts, but think it 
 would stiffen the bike. Wrong?  Hey, since my foot is in my mouth, maybe 
 the double tt helps the bike plane!  Further, the double tt is not 
 limited to Rivendell, there's a guy at my work who rides a Sycip with 2 tt:
  
 http://sycip.com/project/cruiser-town-bikes/
  
 Btw, I have a 18 year old carbon bike that many people find ugly! It's a 
 Calfee with the gussets (webbing). There are many, many people out there 
 who think its one of the ugliest bikes made. I agree, its not the 
 prettiest, but man, it is so comfortable to ride!  Oh yeah, and very 
 durable too! 
  
 Nevertheless, I still think its wrong for Grant to insult carbon. Hey, he 
 makes a good product and should be proclaiming the virtues about steel and 
 his bikes. After all, doesn't he have like a 3 year wait list for one of 
 his customs?  
  
 So go enjoy your bike! Since it doesn't rain here any more, that means 
 more time to ride! Good Luck! 
  
  

 that's awesome!  

 Bill Lindsay
 El Cerrito, CA

 On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:46:43 AM UTC-8, Brewster Fong wrote:


 On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 3:15:16 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar 
 wrote:

 On 02/25/2015 05:39 PM, Brewster Fong wrote: 
  Now, this is nothing but anedotal and just one example, but for my 
  buddy, the right tool got him going! I don't care what it was made 
 out 
  of, but the supposedly stiff, uncomfortable aluminum frame road bike 
  got him hooked and we love it! 

 Some of those Alu Specialized road bikes have riding positions very 
 similar to what GP was advocating back in 2002.  I know quite a few 
 people who have them and like them a lot.  I think the Zerts inserts 
 are 
 pure placebo and the bikes would be better off with something wider 
 than 
 a 25mm tire, but for something you can just walk into a LBS and get for 
 (by modern standards) relatively cheap money, there are lots worse 
 bikes 
 people could buy. 

 Yes, it is not just Specialized, but all the biggies - Trek, C'dale and 
 Giant to name a few - now offer more upright riding position for all 
 their bikes.  For example, Trek sells its carbon bikes with a H1 fit. 
 That's the standard racing fit with low, low bars and super high saddles.  
 BUT, they also sell the same frames/bikes with a H2 fit that has higher 
 bars and a more upright riding position. In fact, this is how the 
 new 10.25lb Trek Emondo, or whatever it is called,  is being offered. Then 
 again, if you're really going to spend $15k for a bike, it better be 
 available in any position that you want! 
  
 I believe the credit for this positioning goes to Grant and his famous 
 raise dat stem article that came out in the late 90s?!  Now, if we can 
 only do something about G's

Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-26 Thread Mark Reimer

The only thing I dislike about my Atlantis is that it doesn't have a double
top tube.

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 1:13 PM, Bill Lindsay tapebu...@gmail.com wrote:

 I own a 56cm Rivendell with a second top tube.  Brewster Fong thinks my
 bicycle is stupid and worthy of ridicule.  I think my bicycle is beautiful
 and I love riding it.

 My Bomba
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/8474652710/in/set-72157632769612752

 Brewster Fong thinks it is wrong for Grant to insult carbon fiber, but he
 doesn't mind insulting my bike.  I get it!  Brewster Fong says whatever
 gets you riding!, but obviously doesn't really mean it.  I really mean
 it.  If you love your bike, that's awesome!

 Bill Lindsay
 El Cerrito, CA


 On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:46:43 AM UTC-8, Brewster Fong wrote:


 On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 3:15:16 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar
 wrote:

 On 02/25/2015 05:39 PM, Brewster Fong wrote:
  Now, this is nothing but anedotal and just one example, but for my
  buddy, the right tool got him going! I don't care what it was made out
  of, but the supposedly stiff, uncomfortable aluminum frame road bike
  got him hooked and we love it!

 Some of those Alu Specialized road bikes have riding positions very
 similar to what GP was advocating back in 2002.  I know quite a few
 people who have them and like them a lot.  I think the Zerts inserts are
 pure placebo and the bikes would be better off with something wider than
 a 25mm tire, but for something you can just walk into a LBS and get for
 (by modern standards) relatively cheap money, there are lots worse bikes
 people could buy.

 Yes, it is not just Specialized, but all the biggies - Trek, C'dale and
 Giant to name a few - now offer more upright riding position for all
 their bikes.  For example, Trek sells its carbon bikes with a H1 fit.
 That's the standard racing fit with low, low bars and super high saddles.
 BUT, they also sell the same frames/bikes with a H2 fit that has higher
 bars and a more upright riding position. In fact, this is how the
 new 10.25lb Trek Emondo, or whatever it is called,  is being offered. Then
 again, if you're really going to spend $15k for a bike, it better be
 available in any position that you want!

 I believe the credit for this positioning goes to Grant and his famous
 raise dat stem article that came out in the late 90s?!  Now, if we can
 only do something about G's fetish with double top tubes (on a 56cm frame!)
 and carbon bashing, we might have somethingGood Luck!

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

I own a 56cm Rivendell with a second top tube.  Brewster Fong thinks my 
bicycle is stupid and worthy of ridicule.  I think my bicycle is beautiful 
and I love riding it.  

My Bomba 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/8474652710/in/set-72157632769612752

Brewster Fong thinks it is wrong for Grant to insult carbon fiber, but he 
doesn't mind insulting my bike.  I get it!  Brewster Fong says whatever 
gets you riding!, but obviously doesn't really mean it.  I really mean it. 
 If you love your bike, that's awesome!  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:46:43 AM UTC-8, Brewster Fong wrote:


 On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 3:15:16 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:

 On 02/25/2015 05:39 PM, Brewster Fong wrote: 
  Now, this is nothing but anedotal and just one example, but for my 
  buddy, the right tool got him going! I don't care what it was made out 
  of, but the supposedly stiff, uncomfortable aluminum frame road bike 
  got him hooked and we love it! 

 Some of those Alu Specialized road bikes have riding positions very 
 similar to what GP was advocating back in 2002.  I know quite a few 
 people who have them and like them a lot.  I think the Zerts inserts are 
 pure placebo and the bikes would be better off with something wider than 
 a 25mm tire, but for something you can just walk into a LBS and get for 
 (by modern standards) relatively cheap money, there are lots worse bikes 
 people could buy. 

 Yes, it is not just Specialized, but all the biggies - Trek, C'dale and 
 Giant to name a few - now offer more upright riding position for all 
 their bikes.  For example, Trek sells its carbon bikes with a H1 fit. 
 That's the standard racing fit with low, low bars and super high saddles.  
 BUT, they also sell the same frames/bikes with a H2 fit that has higher 
 bars and a more upright riding position. In fact, this is how the 
 new 10.25lb Trek Emondo, or whatever it is called,  is being offered. Then 
 again, if you're really going to spend $15k for a bike, it better be 
 available in any position that you want! 
  
 I believe the credit for this positioning goes to Grant and his famous 
 raise dat stem article that came out in the late 90s?!  Now, if we can 
 only do something about G's fetish with double top tubes (on a 56cm frame!) 
 and carbon bashing, we might have somethingGood Luck! 


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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor


On 02/26/2015 03:10 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:

Brewster

My Bombadil is quite stiff.  Bikes that plane are really flexible. 
 My Bombadil does not plane.  My Rawland Stag with 7/4/7 standard 
diameter top tube and downtube does plane.  My Bombadil is very stout. 
 I use it for camping and trail riding.  At times, I am carrying most 
of the gear for a family of four.  When my bike weighs over 90lbs, the 
extra few ounces of the second top tube does not bother me.


When your bike weighs 90 pounds, a 2nd top tube may actually be doing 
you some good!   I'm happy to have a diagonal tube on a tandem, too.  
Jan notwithstanding, I had a French tandem once with twin external 
laterals.  They were decorative and made a nice place to cradle a water 
bottle, but provided no lateral stiffness whatsoever.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

the second top tube is also a terriffic handle for portaging it up the 
stairs to BART

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 12:49:45 PM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:

 On 02/26/2015 03:10 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote: 
  Brewster 
  
  My Bombadil is quite stiff.  Bikes that plane are really flexible. 
   My Bombadil does not plane.  My Rawland Stag with 7/4/7 standard 
  diameter top tube and downtube does plane.  My Bombadil is very stout. 
   I use it for camping and trail riding.  At times, I am carrying most 
  of the gear for a family of four.  When my bike weighs over 90lbs, the 
  extra few ounces of the second top tube does not bother me. 

 When your bike weighs 90 pounds, a 2nd top tube may actually be doing 
 you some good!   I'm happy to have a diagonal tube on a tandem, too.   
 Jan notwithstanding, I had a French tandem once with twin external 
 laterals.  They were decorative and made a nice place to cradle a water 
 bottle, but provided no lateral stiffness whatsoever. 




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[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-26 Thread Andrew Marchant-Shapiro

Grant is a marketeer and an interesting person.  To some extent, he *is* 
trying to get people to drink his Kool-Aid because that's his market 
space.  I well recall when he was selling an older Campy front derailer.  
It had an oversized clamp, so he sold it with a plastic sleeve that you 
used over the seat tube to correctly fit it.  It was the best thing ever, 
and I've seen him do that repeatedly with old stock items.  So to some 
extent, yeah, he's just trying to move stock.  Come *on*--the man sells 
luxury-class bicycles to people with money who (and I count myself in the 
'who' even though I don't own a Riv) like to pretend that they're saving 
the planet or bohemian or randonneurs or...  Look.  We're exactly like a 
sports car club.  The difference in utility for most of us between a Riv 
frame and a '70s UJB or '80s Trek is *de minimis*.  Check my blog post here 
for further thought:  
https://lawschoolissoover.wordpress.com/2014/09/06/marginalia/

At the same time, Grant has some clear philosophical convictions (some of 
which I like, many of which I disagree with, but that's between him and me) 
about the way things *should* be done.  And that's OK, too.  In fact, 
that's *great*.  That's how we learn.  Thesis, antithesis, synthesis, 
remember?

But sometimes they bleed together and Grant *sounds like* a BS artist.  His 
talk about plastic racing wear, for example.  Modern cycling jerseys are, 
IME, very comfortable.  Wool is nice, too.  But he uses terms that 
denigrate others to get his point across, and *that's* where the trouble 
comes in.

He should come to New Haven, where lots of people wear lots of different 
things to ride in, and some of us switch it around.  I love riding in 
street clothes, and I love riding in plastic.  Not because I race (I 
commute and group ride all on the same dynohub-equipped bike).  I ride in 
what's suited to the circumstances.  When it's 95 and muggy, I wear plastic 
and Lycra and carry street clothes in panniers.  Etc.  Grant's language 
implies that he would consider my choice to rid exclusively in SPDs to be 
foolish and racer-y.  In fact, I find clipless more comfortable *and* it's 
far easier to find size 13B bike shoes/sandals that 13B street shoes.  Etc.

He *does* sound dictatorial from time to time.  

So do other people.

And that's when I take a leaf from the past and say Fsck 'em if they don't 
have a sense of humor.  And go ride my bike.  The way *I* want to ride it 
that day.

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 10:58:41 PM UTC-5, Don Compton wrote:

 I own a Mini Cooper and see a similar thing in the group. As new , the 
 cars handle so well. But owners look at racecars that are very low and 
 think that you have to have that look and the change will surely improve 
 the handling. Well, maybe not, ( probably not). Oh well

 On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 1:08:44 PM UTC-8, Jon in the foothills of 
 Central Colorado wrote:

 In the new Adventure Cyclist Mag

 PETERSEN RESPONDS TO READER

 LETTER ‘UNRACING? UNCOOL’

 Racing attitudes, bikes, clothing,

 and diets have become the norm and

 normal, and are so pervasive that many

 adult cyclists, maybe even some you

 know, accept the racing standards as

 the only legitimate way to be a serious

 adult cyclist. What I tried to do in the

 book *Just Ride *— and what we do here

 at Rivendell Bicycle Works — is offer

 an alternative, a model to other adult

 cyclists that there is another way. This

 letter is not an ad for either. I’m simply

 saying where I come from and what I

 do.

 We are the mice trying to squeak

 above the roar at the base of the

 waterfall. It is no time to be wishywashy,

 but I try hard to not offend.

 Inevitably, a declarative position on

 any matter is bound to raise a few

 hackles with those who have a different

 position, but it still hurts to be judged

 by a stranger who would probably like

 me, and whom I’d surely like, in person.

 A good number of our customers are

 middle-aged and older folks trying to

 fit in some activity as they age. They

 often have the means, and they’re

 influenced by what they read and see

 that promotes racers as a good model —

 and that’s something I don’t agree with.

 They shop as innocents and come

 out of it dressed like racers and riding

 bikes that are not only inappropriate

 for the kind of riding they do, but are,

 on top of that and more egregiously, not

 comfortable. We undo that. You may

 see ego or evil behind it, but I don’t

 feel either of those. I see racing and

 racers as fringe and am simply trying

 to legitimize an alternative point of

 view, one that I feel strongly about. I’m

 trying — certainly not singlehandedly —

 to make people feel good about riding

 without dressing in pro-team gear and

 copying so many other affectations of

 the racer, and that is what Unracing and

 *Just Ride *and Rivendell Bicycle Works is

 all about. We’re nobody’s enemy. Some

 of my best friends pedal

Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor


On 02/26/2015 04:10 AM, Andrew Marchant-Shapiro wrote:
Grant is a marketeer and an interesting person.  To some extent, he 
/is/ trying to get people to drink his Kool-Aid because that's his 
market space.  I well recall when he was selling an older Campy front 
derailer.  It had an oversized clamp, so he sold it with a plastic 
sleeve that you used over the seat tube to correctly fit it.  It was 
the best thing ever, and I've seen him do that repeatedly with old 
stock items.  So to some extent, yeah, he's just trying to move stock.


I don't recall this one, but if it was the Racing T front derailleur 
then /Hell yes/, it was the best thing ever for 110/74 compact triples 
and the fact that you needed a shim to get it to fit the seat tube is 
just the price of doing business.  I still marvel at this: why on earth 
would Campagnolo, a company with a proven track record of no interest or 
expertise with touring gearing produce what is by far the best front 
derailleur for such gearing I've ever seen?  So, if it was that one, it 
wasn't just trying to move stock at all.



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[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-26 Thread Geir Bentzen

I believe I have read/skimmed all the comments by now and as a European who 
has emigrated to the U.S. what strikes me as odd is the feeling I get that 
riding a bike is something special. Something you need a club for, extra 
things to buy, something a bit exotic. I believe the core of what Grant 
says is that it is not something special. It as normal as driving or 
walking down the street or taking the bus, and in fact those things can 
often be combined. My impression is that he promotes using the bike as your 
get around daily tool as much as you can, and that may mean to wear 
whatever suits the combination of your tasks, not only your bike riding. 
This is how I experienced life in Europe. But, if you go out for a ride 
that has no other tasks to it than just riding then I believe you should 
feel free to dress for the physical exercise involved. In my own case that 
means bike shorts made of lycra and other more or less bike specific attire 
as needed for the weather. I just don't see the conflict here. I have 
several bikes, but I notice that the one I grab all the time is my 
Hunqapillar, even though I own an excellent German city bike for going to 
the grocery store. So the Hunq does it all, but I may not wear the same 
clothes all the time. When younger I would often wear running shoes while 
walking around town in jeans, but I would never go for a long run wearing 
those jeans even though I still wore the same shoes. Why not adopt the same 
practical and non-ideological attitude?

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 3:08:44 PM UTC-6, Jon in the foothills of 
Central Colorado wrote:

 In the new Adventure Cyclist Mag

 PETERSEN RESPONDS TO READER

 LETTER ‘UNRACING? UNCOOL’

 Racing attitudes, bikes, clothing,

 and diets have become the norm and

 normal, and are so pervasive that many

 adult cyclists, maybe even some you

 know, accept the racing standards as

 the only legitimate way to be a serious

 adult cyclist. What I tried to do in the

 book *Just Ride *— and what we do here

 at Rivendell Bicycle Works — is offer

 an alternative, a model to other adult

 cyclists that there is another way. This

 letter is not an ad for either. I’m simply

 saying where I come from and what I

 do.

 We are the mice trying to squeak

 above the roar at the base of the

 waterfall. It is no time to be wishywashy,

 but I try hard to not offend.

 Inevitably, a declarative position on

 any matter is bound to raise a few

 hackles with those who have a different

 position, but it still hurts to be judged

 by a stranger who would probably like

 me, and whom I’d surely like, in person.

 A good number of our customers are

 middle-aged and older folks trying to

 fit in some activity as they age. They

 often have the means, and they’re

 influenced by what they read and see

 that promotes racers as a good model —

 and that’s something I don’t agree with.

 They shop as innocents and come

 out of it dressed like racers and riding

 bikes that are not only inappropriate

 for the kind of riding they do, but are,

 on top of that and more egregiously, not

 comfortable. We undo that. You may

 see ego or evil behind it, but I don’t

 feel either of those. I see racing and

 racers as fringe and am simply trying

 to legitimize an alternative point of

 view, one that I feel strongly about. I’m

 trying — certainly not singlehandedly —

 to make people feel good about riding

 without dressing in pro-team gear and

 copying so many other affectations of

 the racer, and that is what Unracing and

 *Just Ride *and Rivendell Bicycle Works is

 all about. We’re nobody’s enemy. Some

 of my best friends pedal cliplessly and

 in spandex. It’s cool.

 Grant Petersen

 Walnut Creek, California


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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

Tire labels not lined up with the valve stems!??!??

DISAPPROVE

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 4:20:14 PM UTC-8, Pudge wrote:

  You mean like this?  
 https://www.flickr.com/photos/37542512@N04/8566366471/in/set-72157624552118742

  

  




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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-26 Thread 'Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch

How about the Ibex wool jersey, Patrick? They are very, very light, ss and rear 
pockets. I've yet to have a knit jersey that I could wear two rides in a row. I 
sweat like crazy and my wool stuff doesn't smell.

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RE: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-26 Thread Doug Williams

Perfect Geir!

 

Just wear whatever works for the ride you will be doing. Exercise clothes or 
racing kit are fine if that is what you are doing. Nothing wrong with bike 
clothes for a long and/or hard ride. But bike shoes and jerseys in the grocery 
store are just…well…whatever. Again, I maintain that MANY bicyclists simply 
can’t imagine going on a “regular ride” in “regular clothes”. They miss out on 
many good rides because they simply can’t ride without their racing kit. In the 
time spent getting dressed, I could have already been at the grocery store. The 
result is that the “racing kit crowd” never ride on short errand rides, because 
it is just too much trouble to get into their uniform.

 

 

Doug

 

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Geir Bentzen
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 2:24 PM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

 

I believe I have read/skimmed all the comments by now and as a European who has 
emigrated to the U.S. what strikes me as odd is the feeling I get that riding a 
bike is something special. Something you need a club for, extra things to buy, 
something a bit exotic. I believe the core of what Grant says is that it is not 
something special. It as normal as driving or walking down the street or taking 
the bus, and in fact those things can often be combined. My impression is that 
he promotes using the bike as your get around daily tool as much as you can, 
and that may mean to wear whatever suits the combination of your tasks, not 
only your bike riding. This is how I experienced life in Europe. But, if you go 
out for a ride that has no other tasks to it than just riding then I believe 
you should feel free to dress for the physical exercise involved. In my own 
case that means bike shorts made of lycra and other more or less bike specific 
attire as needed for the weather. I just don't see the conflict here. I have 
several bikes, but I notice that the one I grab all the time is my Hunqapillar, 
even though I own an excellent German city bike for going to the grocery store. 
So the Hunq does it all, but I may not wear the same clothes all the time. When 
younger I would often wear running shoes while walking around town in jeans, 
but I would never go for a long run wearing those jeans even though I still 
wore the same shoes. Why not adopt the same practical and non-ideological 
attitude?

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 3:08:44 PM UTC-6, Jon in the foothills of 
Central Colorado wrote:

In the new Adventure Cyclist Mag

PETERSEN RESPONDS TO READER

LETTER ‘UNRACING? UNCOOL’

Racing attitudes, bikes, clothing,

and diets have become the norm and

normal, and are so pervasive that many

adult cyclists, maybe even some you

know, accept the racing standards as

the only legitimate way to be a serious

adult cyclist. What I tried to do in the

book Just Ride — and what we do here

at Rivendell Bicycle Works — is offer

an alternative, a model to other adult

cyclists that there is another way. This

letter is not an ad for either. I’m simply

saying where I come from and what I

do.

We are the mice trying to squeak

above the roar at the base of the

waterfall. It is no time to be wishywashy,

but I try hard to not offend.

Inevitably, a declarative position on

any matter is bound to raise a few

hackles with those who have a different

position, but it still hurts to be judged

by a stranger who would probably like

me, and whom I’d surely like, in person.

A good number of our customers are

middle-aged and older folks trying to

fit in some activity as they age. They

often have the means, and they’re

influenced by what they read and see

that promotes racers as a good model —

and that’s something I don’t agree with.

They shop as innocents and come

out of it dressed like racers and riding

bikes that are not only inappropriate

for the kind of riding they do, but are,

on top of that and more egregiously, not

comfortable. We undo that. You may

see ego or evil behind it, but I don’t

feel either of those. I see racing and

racers as fringe and am simply trying

to legitimize an alternative point of

view, one that I feel strongly about. I’m

trying — certainly not singlehandedly —

to make people feel good about riding

without dressing in pro-team gear and

copying so many other affectations of

the racer, and that is what Unracing and

Just Ride and Rivendell Bicycle Works is

all about. We’re nobody’s enemy. Some

of my best friends pedal cliplessly and

in spandex. It’s cool.

Grant Petersen

Walnut Creek, California

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

The best comment on the subject yet 

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 3:23 PM, Geir Bentzen geirbent...@gmail.com wrote:

 I believe I have read/skimmed all the comments by now and as a European
 who has emigrated to the U.S. what strikes me as odd is the feeling I get
 that riding a bike is something special. Something you need a club for,
 extra things to buy, something a bit exotic. I believe the core of what
 Grant says is that it is not something special. It as normal as driving or
 walking down the street or taking the bus, and in fact those things can
 often be combined. My impression is that he promotes using the bike as your
 get around daily tool as much as you can, and that may mean to wear
 whatever suits the combination of your tasks, not only your bike riding.
 This is how I experienced life in Europe. But, if you go out for a ride
 that has no other tasks to it than just riding then I believe you should
 feel free to dress for the physical exercise involved. In my own case that
 means bike shorts made of lycra and other more or less bike specific attire
 as needed for the weather. I just don't see the conflict here. I have
 several bikes, but I notice that the one I grab all the time is my
 Hunqapillar, even though I own an excellent German city bike for going to
 the grocery store. So the Hunq does it all, but I may not wear the same
 clothes all the time. When younger I would often wear running shoes while
 walking around town in jeans, but I would never go for a long run wearing
 those jeans even though I still wore the same shoes. Why not adopt the same
 practical and non-ideological attitude?

 On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 3:08:44 PM UTC-6, Jon in the foothills of
 Central Colorado wrote:

 In the new Adventure Cyclist Mag

 PETERSEN RESPONDS TO READER

 LETTER ‘UNRACING? UNCOOL’

 Racing attitudes, bikes, clothing,

 and diets have become the norm and

 normal, and are so pervasive that many

 adult cyclists, maybe even some you

 know, accept the racing standards as

 the only legitimate way to be a serious

 adult cyclist. What I tried to do in the

 book *Just Ride *— and what we do here

 at Rivendell Bicycle Works — is offer

 an alternative, a model to other adult

 cyclists that there is another way. This

 letter is not an ad for either. I’m simply

 saying where I come from and what I

 do.

 We are the mice trying to squeak

 above the roar at the base of the

 waterfall. It is no time to be wishywashy,

 but I try hard to not offend.

 Inevitably, a declarative position on

 any matter is bound to raise a few

 hackles with those who have a different

 position, but it still hurts to be judged

 by a stranger who would probably like

 me, and whom I’d surely like, in person.

 A good number of our customers are

 middle-aged and older folks trying to

 fit in some activity as they age. They

 often have the means, and they’re

 influenced by what they read and see

 that promotes racers as a good model —

 and that’s something I don’t agree with.

 They shop as innocents and come

 out of it dressed like racers and riding

 bikes that are not only inappropriate

 for the kind of riding they do, but are,

 on top of that and more egregiously, not

 comfortable. We undo that. You may

 see ego or evil behind it, but I don’t

 feel either of those. I see racing and

 racers as fringe and am simply trying

 to legitimize an alternative point of

 view, one that I feel strongly about. I’m

 trying — certainly not singlehandedly —

 to make people feel good about riding

 without dressing in pro-team gear and

 copying so many other affectations of

 the racer, and that is what Unracing and

 *Just Ride *and Rivendell Bicycle Works is

 all about. We’re nobody’s enemy. Some

 of my best friends pedal cliplessly and

 in spandex. It’s cool.

 Grant Petersen

 Walnut Creek, California

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By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
Other professional writing services.
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*
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and
individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

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*The Love that moves the Sun and all the other stars. *Dante

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-26 Thread ascpgh

It's odd, no spandex hamsters riding now. I guess riding across the minus 
whatever, snow and ice covered darkness on studded tires with fenders 
generator hubs and lights isn't their magazine ad.

Andy Cheatham 
Pittsburgh

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:54:30 AM UTC-5, Marc Irwin wrote:

 This reminds me of the first charity ride I did on my Hillborne (with 
 Bosco Bars).  A rider came up beside me, asked about the bike, then asked 
 why anybody would want a bike like that?  I said,  I can take this to the 
 grocery store, ride a metric century comfortably, or take a trip over the 
 Himalayas.  What can you do with that? (pointing to his crabon crotch 
 rocket).  He just shook his head and rode away.   I passed he and his crew 
 of spandex hamsters after the second rest stop.  They tend to start loosing 
 it at 30 miles.  One of these days I'm going to do one in a pair of cutoffs 
 (diamond gusset), a nascar t shirt and Cubs batting helmet just for fun.  I 
 might even roll a pack of Winstons up in my sleeve for good measure.

 Marc

 On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 12:56:19 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:



 On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite addison...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

 I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, while I 
 can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the 
 niche.  Just like the extreme downhillers or whatever they are called.  I 
 just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't also 
 accept the benefits of a fatter tire  


 Not true where I am in Silicon Valley . If I show up at the start of one 
 of my (touring) club's rides, a ride meant for people riding a moderate 
 pace, and I see twenty other riders, there will be one steel bike, and I'll 
 be riding it. There will be no bikes that take tires wider than 28 mm, 
 other than my Roadeo. Typically riders have 25 mm tires pumped up rock 
 hard.  Everyone will have lycra shorts including me (haven't found anything 
 else that works for me) and everyone else will be wearing roadie jerseys 
 with sublimated graphics.

 There's one club ride I go on, an easy-paced ride that I do for 
 camaraderie. Most of the riders are like me, over 50, in a lot of cases 
 well over 50. But there is one young woman who shows up on an old 
 Stumpjumper with flat bars, wearing street clothes. Although she has no 
 trouble keeping up, and she has a fine bike, almost every time she has 
 shown up at a ride I'm on someone will explain to her that her bike is 
 wrong and she needs a different one.

 -- 
 -- Anne Paulson

 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.
  


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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-26 Thread Goshen Peter

Bazinga!

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:25 PM, Bill Lindsay tapebu...@gmail.com wrote:

 Tire labels not lined up with the valve stems!??!??

 DISAPPROVE

 On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 4:20:14 PM UTC-8, Pudge wrote:

  You mean like this?  https://www.flickr.com/photos/
 37542512@N04/8566366471/in/set-72157624552118742






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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-26 Thread Mike Schiller

now that looks like a hella lota fun.  Although I'd probably get the new 
Salsa Warbird... carbon bike that fits 45mm tires.  Seems like most of  my 
fun rides these days are like that ( a bit slower and drier though) and 
there should be beer at the  end too!

~mike
Carlsbad Ca.

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 2:55:23 PM UTC-8, Mark Reimer wrote:

 Oh I wouldn't be so sure about that...

 http://theradavist.com/2015/02/santa-cruz-stigmata-cross-video/




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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-26 Thread Deacon Patrick

That snow looks to be about 28˚F or warmer. That's only minus whatever in 
C. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 3:55:23 PM UTC-7, Mark Reimer wrote:

 Oh I wouldn't be so sure about that...

 http://theradavist.com/2015/02/santa-cruz-stigmata-cross-video/

 On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 4:53 PM, ascpgh asc...@gmail.com javascript: 
 wrote:

 It's odd, no spandex hamsters riding now. I guess riding across the minus 
 whatever, snow and ice covered darkness on studded tires with fenders 
 generator hubs and lights isn't their magazine ad.

 Andy Cheatham 
 Pittsburgh


 On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:54:30 AM UTC-5, Marc Irwin wrote:

 This reminds me of the first charity ride I did on my Hillborne (with 
 Bosco Bars).  A rider came up beside me, asked about the bike, then asked 
 why anybody would want a bike like that?  I said,  I can take this to the 
 grocery store, ride a metric century comfortably, or take a trip over the 
 Himalayas.  What can you do with that? (pointing to his crabon crotch 
 rocket).  He just shook his head and rode away.   I passed he and his crew 
 of spandex hamsters after the second rest stop.  They tend to start loosing 
 it at 30 miles.  One of these days I'm going to do one in a pair of cutoffs 
 (diamond gusset), a nascar t shirt and Cubs batting helmet just for fun.  I 
 might even roll a pack of Winstons up in my sleeve for good measure.

 Marc

 On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 12:56:19 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:



 On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite addison...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

 I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, while 
 I can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the 
 niche.  Just like the extreme downhillers or whatever they are called.  
 I 
 just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't also 
 accept the benefits of a fatter tire  


 Not true where I am in Silicon Valley . If I show up at the start of 
 one of my (touring) club's rides, a ride meant for people riding a 
 moderate 
 pace, and I see twenty other riders, there will be one steel bike, and 
 I'll 
 be riding it. There will be no bikes that take tires wider than 28 mm, 
 other than my Roadeo. Typically riders have 25 mm tires pumped up rock 
 hard.  Everyone will have lycra shorts including me (haven't found 
 anything 
 else that works for me) and everyone else will be wearing roadie jerseys 
 with sublimated graphics.

 There's one club ride I go on, an easy-paced ride that I do for 
 camaraderie. Most of the riders are like me, over 50, in a lot of cases 
 well over 50. But there is one young woman who shows up on an old 
 Stumpjumper with flat bars, wearing street clothes. Although she has no 
 trouble keeping up, and she has a fine bike, almost every time she has 
 shown up at a ride I'm on someone will explain to her that her bike is 
 wrong and she needs a different one.

 -- 
 -- Anne Paulson

 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.
  
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-26 Thread Mark Reimer

Oh, I know they're babies. That video didn't fool me. 



 On Feb 26, 2015, at 5:26 PM, Deacon Patrick lamontg...@mac.com wrote:
 
 That snow looks to be about 28˚F or warmer. That's only minus whatever in C. 
 Grin.
 
 With abandon,
 Patrick
 
 On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 3:55:23 PM UTC-7, Mark Reimer wrote:
 Oh I wouldn't be so sure about that...
 
 http://theradavist.com/2015/02/santa-cruz-stigmata-cross-video/
 
 On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 4:53 PM, ascpgh asc...@gmail.com wrote:
 It's odd, no spandex hamsters riding now. I guess riding across the minus 
 whatever, snow and ice covered darkness on studded tires with fenders 
 generator hubs and lights isn't their magazine ad.
 
 Andy Cheatham 
 Pittsburgh
 
 
 On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:54:30 AM UTC-5, Marc Irwin wrote:
 This reminds me of the first charity ride I did on my Hillborne (with 
 Bosco Bars).  A rider came up beside me, asked about the bike, then asked 
 why anybody would want a bike like that?  I said,  I can take this to the 
 grocery store, ride a metric century comfortably, or take a trip over the 
 Himalayas.  What can you do with that? (pointing to his crabon crotch 
 rocket).  He just shook his head and rode away.   I passed he and his crew 
 of spandex hamsters after the second rest stop.  They tend to start 
 loosing it at 30 miles.  One of these days I'm going to do one in a pair 
 of cutoffs (diamond gusset), a nascar t shirt and Cubs batting helmet just 
 for fun.  I might even roll a pack of Winstons up in my sleeve for good 
 measure.
 
 Marc
 
 On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 12:56:19 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:
 
 
 On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite addison...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, while I 
 can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the 
 niche.  Just like the extreme downhillers or whatever they are called. 
  I just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't 
 also accept the benefits of a fatter tire  
 
 Not true where I am in Silicon Valley . If I show up at the start of one 
 of my (touring) club's rides, a ride meant for people riding a moderate 
 pace, and I see twenty other riders, there will be one steel bike, and 
 I'll be riding it. There will be no bikes that take tires wider than 28 
 mm, other than my Roadeo. Typically riders have 25 mm tires pumped up 
 rock hard.  Everyone will have lycra shorts including me (haven't found 
 anything else that works for me) and everyone else will be wearing roadie 
 jerseys with sublimated graphics.
 
 There's one club ride I go on, an easy-paced ride that I do for 
 camaraderie. Most of the riders are like me, over 50, in a lot of cases 
 well over 50. But there is one young woman who shows up on an old 
 Stumpjumper with flat bars, wearing street clothes. Although she has no 
 trouble keeping up, and she has a fine bike, almost every time she has 
 shown up at a ride I'm on someone will explain to her that her bike is 
 wrong and she needs a different one.
 
 -- 
 -- Anne Paulson
 
 It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.
 
 -- 
 You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the 
 Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group.
 To unsubscribe from this topic, visit 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor


On 02/26/2015 08:06 PM, Doug Williams wrote:


Perfect Geir!

Just wear whatever works for the ride you will be doing. Exercise 
clothes or racing kit are fine if that is what you are doing. Nothing 
wrong with bike clothes for a long and/or hard ride. But bike shoes 
and jerseys in the grocery store are just…well…whatever. Again, I 
maintain that MANY bicyclists simply can’t imagine going on a “regular 
ride” in “regular clothes”. They miss out on many good rides because 
they simply can’t ride without their racing kit. In the time spent 
getting dressed, I could have already been at the grocery store. The 
result is that the “racing kit crowd” never ride on short errand 
rides, because it is just too much trouble to get into their uniform.




It's a right pain walking around in a store shopping wearing cycling 
shoes.  Also, odds are good a bike you'd use on a regular ride 
couldn't carry groceries anyway.  On top of that, what are the chances 
the bike would be stolen?  Hardly worth taking the risk. It's a lot more 
than just too much trouble to get into the uniform.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-26 Thread Anton Tutter

Sorry, Mark, we here in the northeast US call that a dusting. I'm afraid
that doesn't compare at all to what we've been getting over here. This is
how cyclists were rolling in the town next to mine the past couple weeks.
No spandex here.

http://s3-ec.buzzfed.com/static/2015-02/23/8/enhanced/webdr11/enhanced-4191-1424699631-17.jpg

http://cdnph.upi.com/sh/th/i/UPI-3761424787153/2015/14247880704634/Vandals-collapse-40-foot-snow-tunnel-dug-by-Mass-cyclists.jpg

Anton not wearing spandex in this 101.7 inches of snowfall Tutter in
Somerville, MA

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 5:55:23 PM UTC-5, Mark Reimer wrote:

Oh I wouldn't be so sure about that...

http://theradavist.com/2015/02/santa-cruz-stigmata-cross-video/

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 4:53 PM, ascpgh asc...@gmail.com javascript:
wrote:

It's odd, no spandex hamsters riding now. I guess riding across the minus
whatever, snow and ice covered darkness on studded tires with fenders
generator hubs and lights isn't their magazine ad.

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

On Thursday, February 26, 2015 at 9:54:30 AM UTC-5, Marc Irwin wrote:

This reminds me of the first charity ride I did on my Hillborne (with
Bosco Bars). A rider came up beside me, asked about the bike, then asked
why anybody would want a bike like that? I said, I can take this to the
grocery store, ride a metric century comfortably, or take a trip over the
Himalayas. What can you do with that? (pointing to his crabon crotch
rocket). He just shook his head and rode away. I passed he and his crew
of spandex hamsters after the second rest stop. They tend to start loosing
it at 30 miles. One of these days I'm going to do one in a pair of cutoffs
(diamond gusset), a nascar t shirt and Cubs batting helmet just for fun. I
might even roll a pack of Winstons up in my sleeve for good measure.

Marc

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 12:56:19 PM UTC-5, Anne Paulson wrote:

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite addison...@gmail.com
wrote:

I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won. Anymore, while
I can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the
niche. Just like the extreme downhillers or whatever they are called.
I
just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't also
accept the benefits of a fatter tire

--
-- Anne Paulson

It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor


On 02/26/2015 09:40 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:
You must have walked in SPDs? And my Ram and '03 custom carry 
groceries just fine, while being fun to ride unladen. As for theft, I 
usually wheel the bike through the aisles in place of a shopping cart.


I didn't say it couldn't be done, obviously it can be, but that's pretty 
much the interior dialog.  I have a bike I can ride in regular street 
clothes and shoes that I use for errands.  Lots of people bring bikes to 
the grocery store, but I have never yet even once in my entire life seen 
anyone bring one into the store.





at least 3/4 of my riding is turning shopping and errand trips into 
cycling detours on such bikes. At 12 to 20 miles each, rt, it's worth 
my while to change into cycling kit -- such as it is. Certainly SPDs.


On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:36 PM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com 
mailto:palin...@his.com wrote:





It's a right pain walking around in a store shopping wearing
cycling shoes.  Also, odds are good a bike you'd use on a
regular ride couldn't carry groceries anyway.  On top of that,
what are the chances the bike would be stolen?  Hardly worth
taking the risk.  It's a lot more than just too much trouble to
get into the uniform.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

You must have walked in SPDs? And my Ram and '03 custom carry groceries
just fine, while being fun to ride unladen. As for theft, I usually wheel
the bike through the aisles in place of a shopping cart.

at least 3/4 of my riding is turning shopping and errand trips into cycling
detours on such bikes. At 12 to 20 miles each, rt, it's worth my while to
change into cycling kit -- such as it is. Certainly SPDs.

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 7:36 PM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote:


 It's a right pain walking around in a store shopping wearing cycling
 shoes.  Also, odds are good a bike you'd use on a regular ride couldn't
 carry groceries anyway.  On top of that, what are the chances the bike
 would be stolen?  Hardly worth taking the risk.  It's a lot more than just
 too much trouble to get into the uniform.



-- 
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By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
Other professional writing services.
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Patrick Moore
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*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and
individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

*Kinei hos eromenon. It moves as the being-loved. *Aristotle

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-26 Thread cyclotourist

100!

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 5:06 PM, Doug Williams 
salguod3791willi...@gmail.com wrote:

 Perfect Geir!



 Just wear whatever works for the ride you will be doing. Exercise clothes
 or racing kit are fine if that is what you are doing. Nothing wrong with
 bike clothes for a long and/or hard ride. But bike shoes and jerseys in the
 grocery store are just...well...whatever. Again, I maintain that MANY
 bicyclists simply can't imagine going on a regular ride in regular
 clothes. They miss out on many good rides because they simply can't ride
 without their racing kit. In the time spent getting dressed, I could have
 already been at the grocery store. The result is that the racing kit
 crowd never ride on short errand rides, because it is just too much
 trouble to get into their uniform.





 Doug



 *From:* rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [mailto:
 rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Geir Bentzen
 *Sent:* Thursday, February 26, 2015 2:24 PM
 *To:* rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
 *Subject:* [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor



 I believe I have read/skimmed all the comments by now and as a European
 who has emigrated to the U.S. what strikes me as odd is the feeling I get
 that riding a bike is something special. Something you need a club for,
 extra things to buy, something a bit exotic. I believe the core of what
 Grant says is that it is not something special. It as normal as driving or
 walking down the street or taking the bus, and in fact those things can
 often be combined. My impression is that he promotes using the bike as your
 get around daily tool as much as you can, and that may mean to wear
 whatever suits the combination of your tasks, not only your bike riding.
 This is how I experienced life in Europe. But, if you go out for a ride
 that has no other tasks to it than just riding then I believe you should
 feel free to dress for the physical exercise involved. In my own case that
 means bike shorts made of lycra and other more or less bike specific attire
 as needed for the weather. I just don't see the conflict here. I have
 several bikes, but I notice that the one I grab all the time is my
 Hunqapillar, even though I own an excellent German city bike for going to
 the grocery store. So the Hunq does it all, but I may not wear the same
 clothes all the time. When younger I would often wear running shoes while
 walking around town in jeans, but I would never go for a long run wearing
 those jeans even though I still wore the same shoes. Why not adopt the same
 practical and non-ideological attitude?

 On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 3:08:44 PM UTC-6, Jon in the foothills of
 Central Colorado wrote:

 In the new Adventure Cyclist Mag

 PETERSEN RESPONDS TO READER

 LETTER 'UNRACING? UNCOOL'

 Racing attitudes, bikes, clothing,

 and diets have become the norm and

 normal, and are so pervasive that many

 adult cyclists, maybe even some you

 know, accept the racing standards as

 the only legitimate way to be a serious

 adult cyclist. What I tried to do in the

 book *Just Ride *-- and what we do here

 at Rivendell Bicycle Works -- is offer

 an alternative, a model to other adult

 cyclists that there is another way. This

 letter is not an ad for either. I'm simply

 saying where I come from and what I

 do.

 We are the mice trying to squeak

 above the roar at the base of the

 waterfall. It is no time to be wishywashy,

 but I try hard to not offend.

 Inevitably, a declarative position on

 any matter is bound to raise a few

 hackles with those who have a different

 position, but it still hurts to be judged

 by a stranger who would probably like

 me, and whom I'd surely like, in person.

 A good number of our customers are

 middle-aged and older folks trying to

 fit in some activity as they age. They

 often have the means, and they're

 influenced by what they read and see

 that promotes racers as a good model --

 and that's something I don't agree with.

 They shop as innocents and come

 out of it dressed like racers and riding

 bikes that are not only inappropriate

 for the kind of riding they do, but are,

 on top of that and more egregiously, not

 comfortable. We undo that. You may

 see ego or evil behind it, but I don't

 feel either of those. I see racing and

 racers as fringe and am simply trying

 to legitimize an alternative point of

 view, one that I feel strongly about. I'm

 trying -- certainly not singlehandedly --

 to make people feel good about riding

 without dressing in pro-team gear and

 copying so many other affectations of

 the racer, and that is what Unracing and

 *Just Ride *and Rivendell Bicycle Works is

 all about. We're nobody's enemy. Some

 of my best friends pedal cliplessly and

 in spandex. It's cool.

 Grant Petersen

 Walnut Creek, California

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-25 Thread Addison Wilhite

I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, while I
can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the
niche.  Just like the extreme downhillers or whatever they are called.  I
just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't also
accept the benefits of a fatter tire.  Maybe it's the rise of 'cross.
Likewise, walking into a bike shop anymore I can easily find high
performance bikes that take a wider tire and plenty of steel.

If you look at most magazines in the bike world these days they are
dominated by stories of urban and adventure touring types of biking and
all the products they are pushing to go along with those kinds of
activities.  That's a whole lot of crossover with the Riv world.

Cheers,


Addison Wilhite, M.A.

Academy of Arts, Careers and Technology http://www.washoeschools.net/aact

*“Blazing the Trail to College and Career Success”*

Educator: Professional Portfolio http://addisonwilhite.blogspot.com/

Blogger: Reno Rambler http://reno-rambler.blogspot.com/

Bicycle Advocate: Regional Transportation Commission, Bicycle Pedestrian
Advisory Committee
http://www.rtcwashoe.com/public-transportation-22-124.html


On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 12:18 AM, Goshen Peter uscpeter11...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Every runner knows those Damn walkers are just in the way [image: ]
 Must be winter.
 On Feb 25, 2015 2:50 AM, 'pb' via RBW Owners Bunch 
 rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com wrote:



 On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 8:18:22 PM UTC-8, Doug Williams wrote:

 pb,

 Hmmm...I'm glad that you found a few good LBS's,


 No, I called three, and got three answers.  I made three calls.  I got
 three answers.  I chose the three because they were representative of three
 major corporate entities.


 but have you read a mainstream bicycle magazine recently? I see all
 sorts of articles and advertisements glorifying racing and bikes so
 lightweight that they are completely impractical for normal use. I see VERY
 few articles and advertisements featuring practical and reliable bikes or
 articles that espouse using a bike for transportation rather than for only
 racing or exercise. Transportation? What's that? A fun ride that isn't a
 race? What's that?


 Do you read Vogue to find articles on dungarees or Harris tweed?  Do you
 read GQ to find out what to wear when gardening?  I don't even know what
 the mainstream bicycle magazines are any more. I do know that Bicycling
 (does it still exist?) didn't offer a new article, or cover, in twenty
 years.  They just recycled the old ones on a regular basis (Climb better in
 30 days!  Get faster in 30 days!  Prepare for a century in 30 days!  Get
 leaner in 30 days!).  I hope you don't pay to read it.  Doug, are you
 confusing magazines with actual journalism?  Magazines exist to make money,
 and they'll print whatever they think will sell copies.  Apparently what
 you think is interesting isn't what they think will sell copies.  Does that
 prove something about your local bicycle shop, or does it just indicate
 that maybe you're looking at the wrong magazine, which you knew before you
 picked it up.


 I don't think that Grant just invented this issue. The phenomena is
 quite real. Grant's message resonates with many because the racing
 phenomena IS real.


 No, Grant didn't invent the issue, but he has fed the flames, and kept it
 alive, and he has perpetuated a stereotype, and he has offended folks along
 the way.  For no reason.  And I assure you that it has affected his bottom
 line by marginalizing him.  Canonize him for that if you wish.


  And yes, I do (quite often) encounter smug racers in their spandex
 uniforms who disparage practical cyclists. They are mostly wannabe's and
 not real racers, of course. But they are numerous and annoying just the
 same.


 Oh come on.  There are rude and irritating members of every population
 group.  Do they represent their groups as a whole?  See comments about
 stereotyping.  Also, people tend to see what they are looking for.  If you
 are looking for snotty racers, you'll probably find them.  Ironically,
 typing that reminds me of riding into my neighborhood one night from work.
 My commute ride is about 40 quite hilly miles each way, a solid 2.5 hours,
 especially after a day of work, and I had ridden both ways that day,
 leaving the house in the morning at 5:30 (no, I do not do that commute both
 ways very often).  I was on a carbon Look, in lycra, and I had my clothes
 and shoes and files and a laptop in my Timbuktu.  I was riding very tiredly
 into my development, done for the day, when a fellow in jeans and a plaid
 shirt went spinning past me on a Surly.  He was sitting upright, and he
 ignored me as he spun past with a grin.  I guess he kicked my ass.  If it
 had been me passing him, I would have said hello, because I try to be
 friendly to other cyclists.

 Here is my suggestion to you and to Grant:  Promote and enjoy the kind of
 cycling and bicycles that

Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

Every day, there are frightful sights in lycra on every bike path

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 2:18:24 AM UTC-6, Peter M wrote:

 Every runner knows those Damn walkers are just in the way  Must be 
 winter. 
 On Feb 25, 2015 2:50 AM, 'pb' via RBW Owners Bunch 
 rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com javascript: wrote:



 On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 8:18:22 PM UTC-8, Doug Williams wrote:

 pb,

 Hmmm...I'm glad that you found a few good LBS's, 


 No, I called three, and got three answers.  I made three calls.  I got 
 three answers.  I chose the three because they were representative of three 
 major corporate entities.
  

 but have you read a mainstream bicycle magazine recently? I see all 
 sorts of articles and advertisements glorifying racing and bikes so 
 lightweight that they are completely impractical for normal use. I see VERY 
 few articles and advertisements featuring practical and reliable bikes or 
 articles that espouse using a bike for transportation rather than for only 
 racing or exercise. Transportation? What's that? A fun ride that isn't a 
 race? What's that?


 Do you read Vogue to find articles on dungarees or Harris tweed?  Do you 
 read GQ to find out what to wear when gardening?  I don't even know what 
 the mainstream bicycle magazines are any more. I do know that Bicycling 
 (does it still exist?) didn't offer a new article, or cover, in twenty 
 years.  They just recycled the old ones on a regular basis (Climb better in 
 30 days!  Get faster in 30 days!  Prepare for a century in 30 days!  Get 
 leaner in 30 days!).  I hope you don't pay to read it.  Doug, are you 
 confusing magazines with actual journalism?  Magazines exist to make money, 
 and they'll print whatever they think will sell copies.  Apparently what 
 you think is interesting isn't what they think will sell copies.  Does that 
 prove something about your local bicycle shop, or does it just indicate 
 that maybe you're looking at the wrong magazine, which you knew before you 
 picked it up.   
  

 I don't think that Grant just invented this issue. The phenomena is 
 quite real. Grant's message resonates with many because the racing 
 phenomena IS real.


 No, Grant didn't invent the issue, but he has fed the flames, and kept it 
 alive, and he has perpetuated a stereotype, and he has offended folks along 
 the way.  For no reason.  And I assure you that it has affected his bottom 
 line by marginalizing him.  Canonize him for that if you wish.  


  And yes, I do (quite often) encounter smug racers in their spandex 
 uniforms who disparage practical cyclists. They are mostly wannabe's and 
 not real racers, of course. But they are numerous and annoying just the 
 same.


 Oh come on.  There are rude and irritating members of every population 
 group.  Do they represent their groups as a whole?  See comments about 
 stereotyping.  Also, people tend to see what they are looking for.  If you 
 are looking for snotty racers, you'll probably find them.  Ironically, 
 typing that reminds me of riding into my neighborhood one night from work.  
 My commute ride is about 40 quite hilly miles each way, a solid 2.5 hours, 
 especially after a day of work, and I had ridden both ways that day, 
 leaving the house in the morning at 5:30 (no, I do not do that commute both 
 ways very often).  I was on a carbon Look, in lycra, and I had my clothes 
 and shoes and files and a laptop in my Timbuktu.  I was riding very tiredly 
 into my development, done for the day, when a fellow in jeans and a plaid 
 shirt went spinning past me on a Surly.  He was sitting upright, and he 
 ignored me as he spun past with a grin.  I guess he kicked my ass.  If it 
 had been me passing him, I would have said hello, because I try to be 
 friendly to other cyclists.  

 Here is my suggestion to you and to Grant:  Promote and enjoy the kind of 
 cycling and bicycles that you like, and let those things stand on their own 
 feet.  If your LBS sucks and just wants to sell $15,000 Pinarellos and 
 one-piece suits, go to another store, or mail order, but don't tell me that 
 proves every LBS sucks, or that every customer of that LBS is an ass.  
 Don't sneer at other cyclists along the way, or if you do, they may say 
 things like Norma Steinberg said.  There is sufficient rudeness and 
 division in our world.  Don't perpetuate it.

 Think about my comment about Ritchey and Fisher and Kelly not needing to 
 belittle roadies to make mountain biking attractive.  The opposite happened 
 -- suddenly it was cool to have two bikes!  Grant's ideas in Just Ride are 
 fine.  Yeah, I've read it -- he sent me a copy, and I have it at my right 
 hand.  It's just not necessary for anyone to prove that his ideas are right 
 by proving that someone else's ideas are wrong.  Sometimes two ideas can be 
 right at the same time, and to make an idea attractive does not 
 require belittling another idea.  You want to go for a run, go for a run.  
 You

Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-25 Thread Jim Bronson

Guilty as charged.  In fact I am definitely not an adherent to Grant's
thoughts on cycling attire.  I'm wearing plum-smuggling cycling shorts
every time I ride, unless it's a very, very short ride.

But unlike some folks, I don't feel any pressure to conform to the Unracer
philosophy.  It's just more ideas about how to make cycling more enjoyable
and accessible to all

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 7:39 AM, Ron Mc bulldog...@gmail.com wrote:

 Every day, there are frightful sights in lycra on every bike path

 On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 2:18:24 AM UTC-6, Peter M wrote:

 Every runner knows those Damn walkers are just in the way [image: ]
 Must be winter.
 On Feb 25, 2015 2:50 AM, 'pb' via RBW Owners Bunch rbw-owne...@
 googlegroups.com wrote:



 On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 8:18:22 PM UTC-8, Doug Williams wrote:

 pb,

 Hmmm...I'm glad that you found a few good LBS's,


 No, I called three, and got three answers.  I made three calls.  I got
 three answers.  I chose the three because they were representative of three
 major corporate entities.


 but have you read a mainstream bicycle magazine recently? I see all
 sorts of articles and advertisements glorifying racing and bikes so
 lightweight that they are completely impractical for normal use. I see VERY
 few articles and advertisements featuring practical and reliable bikes or
 articles that espouse using a bike for transportation rather than for only
 racing or exercise. Transportation? What's that? A fun ride that isn't a
 race? What's that?


 Do you read Vogue to find articles on dungarees or Harris tweed?  Do you
 read GQ to find out what to wear when gardening?  I don't even know what
 the mainstream bicycle magazines are any more. I do know that Bicycling
 (does it still exist?) didn't offer a new article, or cover, in twenty
 years.  They just recycled the old ones on a regular basis (Climb better in
 30 days!  Get faster in 30 days!  Prepare for a century in 30 days!  Get
 leaner in 30 days!).  I hope you don't pay to read it.  Doug, are you
 confusing magazines with actual journalism?  Magazines exist to make money,
 and they'll print whatever they think will sell copies.  Apparently what
 you think is interesting isn't what they think will sell copies.  Does that
 prove something about your local bicycle shop, or does it just indicate
 that maybe you're looking at the wrong magazine, which you knew before you
 picked it up.


 I don't think that Grant just invented this issue. The phenomena is
 quite real. Grant's message resonates with many because the racing
 phenomena IS real.


 No, Grant didn't invent the issue, but he has fed the flames, and kept
 it alive, and he has perpetuated a stereotype, and he has offended folks
 along the way.  For no reason.  And I assure you that it has affected his
 bottom line by marginalizing him.  Canonize him for that if you wish.


  And yes, I do (quite often) encounter smug racers in their spandex
 uniforms who disparage practical cyclists. They are mostly wannabe's and
 not real racers, of course. But they are numerous and annoying just the
 same.


 Oh come on.  There are rude and irritating members of every population
 group.  Do they represent their groups as a whole?  See comments about
 stereotyping.  Also, people tend to see what they are looking for.  If you
 are looking for snotty racers, you'll probably find them.  Ironically,
 typing that reminds me of riding into my neighborhood one night from work.
 My commute ride is about 40 quite hilly miles each way, a solid 2.5 hours,
 especially after a day of work, and I had ridden both ways that day,
 leaving the house in the morning at 5:30 (no, I do not do that commute both
 ways very often).  I was on a carbon Look, in lycra, and I had my clothes
 and shoes and files and a laptop in my Timbuktu.  I was riding very tiredly
 into my development, done for the day, when a fellow in jeans and a plaid
 shirt went spinning past me on a Surly.  He was sitting upright, and he
 ignored me as he spun past with a grin.  I guess he kicked my ass.  If it
 had been me passing him, I would have said hello, because I try to be
 friendly to other cyclists.

 Here is my suggestion to you and to Grant:  Promote and enjoy the kind
 of cycling and bicycles that you like, and let those things stand on their
 own feet.  If your LBS sucks and just wants to sell $15,000 Pinarellos and
 one-piece suits, go to another store, or mail order, but don't tell me that
 proves every LBS sucks, or that every customer of that LBS is an ass.
 Don't sneer at other cyclists along the way, or if you do, they may say
 things like Norma Steinberg said.  There is sufficient rudeness and
 division in our world.  Don't perpetuate it.

 Think about my comment about Ritchey and Fisher and Kelly not needing to
 belittle roadies to make mountain biking attractive.  The opposite happened
 -- suddenly it was cool to have two bikes!  Grant's ideas in Just Ride are
 fine.  Yeah, I've

Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-25 Thread Matthew J

 No, Grant didn't invent the issue, but he has fed the flames, and kept it 
alive, and he has perpetuated a stereotype, and he has offended folks along 
the way.  For no reason.  And I assure you that it has affected his 
 bottom line by marginalizing him.

This appears to assume GP does what he does mercenary like looking for 
business.  For better or worse GP values his vision over the bottom line.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-25 Thread Steve Palincsar


On 02/25/2015 10:30 AM, Will wrote:
so... was all that discomfort related clothes... or related to 
position on bike?


Clothes.  Cycling shoes eliminate foot pressure, cycling shorts have 
padding and no seams to create pressure ridges.  The following year with 
no changes other than clothing I did my first century in comfort.


Also, I did not mention because it wasn't a critical factor in that 
failure, but comparing lycra jerseys with cotton T shirts in hot and 
humid conditions such as metro-DC area summers, it's clear that lycra is 
far cooler and more comfortable.


The longer distances you ride and the more difficult conditions, in 
general the more clothing specific to the sport benefits you.


That's not to say it's absolutely essential: on the first century I did 
complete, there was a kid who ride the whole thing barefoot on rat trap 
pedals.  Don't ask me how, my feet would have been raw meat.






On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 8:53:57 AM UTC-6, Steve Palincsar 
wrote:


On 02/25/2015 09:41 AM, Will wrote:
 Why do you need to wear special clothes to ride? Not arguing, just
 curious. I've been riding for about 50 years. Newspaper bikes as a
 before teenage years, then Raleigh racers in college. Shorts and
tee
 shirt have always worked for me. What's the advantage of bike shop
 attire?

I will never forget the first time I tried to ride a century.  It was
1973, and I had a P15 Paramount.  I was wearing a T shirt, BVDs,
cut off
denim jeans for shorts, some kind of sneakers and no gloves.  By
the end
of the ride I had branded into my memory the true meaning of the
Johnny
Cash song Ring of Fire -- blazing lines of pain on my backside from
the seams on both underwear and denim shorts, parallel grooves of
pain
in my feet where the edges of the pedals had transmitted their
pressure
through the soles of my sneakers.  My hands felt as though they
were on
fire as well.  Every 10 miles or so I'd stop and lie down on the
ground
and try to will the agony away, but by mile 75 I realized I'd been
wishing a dog would run out in front of me so I could crash and
just lay
down on the pavement.  At that point I stopped and waited for the SAG
wagon.  It's the only time I've ever SAGged back from a century.


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[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-25 Thread Joe Bernard

When I started cycling in 1990 the landscape in Northern California was 
roadies in lycra, mountain bikers in lycra, and po' folks like me in street 
clothes on Goodwill beater bikes. There was no in between. Now there's a 
whole world of city bikes and country bikes and fixies and cargo bikes and 
Dutch bikes being ridden in all manner of gear. Not to mention tweed rides. 
All of this can be traced directly back to Grant's insistence that there 
was a better way for a large portion of adult cyclists to approach cycling, 
and this didn't happen by being nice about it. GP pushed this alternative 
loudly and often, and I don't think we would be where we are today if he 
hadn't. So I'm sorry if some folks feel like he's telling them they can't 
ride carbon bikes in team gear..that's not what he's saying. He's saying 
that it's not required to be considered a serious cyclist, and this was not 
the conventional wisdom when Rivendell started. Grant Petersen changed 
cycling. 

Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 1:08:44 PM UTC-8, Jon in the foothills of 
Central Colorado wrote:

 In the new Adventure Cyclist Mag

 PETERSEN RESPONDS TO READER

 LETTER ‘UNRACING? UNCOOL’

 Racing attitudes, bikes, clothing,

 and diets have become the norm and

 normal, and are so pervasive that many

 adult cyclists, maybe even some you

 know, accept the racing standards as

 the only legitimate way to be a serious

 adult cyclist. What I tried to do in the

 book *Just Ride *— and what we do here

 at Rivendell Bicycle Works — is offer

 an alternative, a model to other adult

 cyclists that there is another way. This

 letter is not an ad for either. I’m simply

 saying where I come from and what I

 do.

 We are the mice trying to squeak

 above the roar at the base of the

 waterfall. It is no time to be wishywashy,

 but I try hard to not offend.

 Inevitably, a declarative position on

 any matter is bound to raise a few

 hackles with those who have a different

 position, but it still hurts to be judged

 by a stranger who would probably like

 me, and whom I’d surely like, in person.

 A good number of our customers are

 middle-aged and older folks trying to

 fit in some activity as they age. They

 often have the means, and they’re

 influenced by what they read and see

 that promotes racers as a good model —

 and that’s something I don’t agree with.

 They shop as innocents and come

 out of it dressed like racers and riding

 bikes that are not only inappropriate

 for the kind of riding they do, but are,

 on top of that and more egregiously, not

 comfortable. We undo that. You may

 see ego or evil behind it, but I don’t

 feel either of those. I see racing and

 racers as fringe and am simply trying

 to legitimize an alternative point of

 view, one that I feel strongly about. I’m

 trying — certainly not singlehandedly —

 to make people feel good about riding

 without dressing in pro-team gear and

 copying so many other affectations of

 the racer, and that is what Unracing and

 *Just Ride *and Rivendell Bicycle Works is

 all about. We’re nobody’s enemy. Some

 of my best friends pedal cliplessly and

 in spandex. It’s cool.

 Grant Petersen

 Walnut Creek, California


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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

Mark, I'm with you on this.  
In the Texas summer, cooling and evaporation is everything.  Padding = 
insulation = chaffing.  


 Last summer I did three long rides in a row (180km, 130km and 110km back 
 to back) in the thinnest merino boxers and cotton shorts I could find. I 
 was next to naked. Riding on a B17 Special that was only a few months old. 
 My body felt fantastic the whole way, except for one section of trail 
 filled with hidden gopher holes...ouch. I was amazed. 


  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-25 Thread Will

Why do you need to wear special clothes to ride? Not arguing, just curious. 
I've been riding for about 50 years. Newspaper bikes as a before teenage 
years, then Raleigh racers in college. Shorts and tee shirt have always 
worked for me. What's the advantage of bike shop attire?  

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 8:21:59 AM UTC-6, Jim Bronson wrote:

 Guilty as charged.  In fact I am definitely not an adherent to Grant's 
 thoughts on cycling attire.  I'm wearing plum-smuggling cycling shorts 
 every time I ride, unless it's a very, very short ride.

 But unlike some folks, I don't feel any pressure to conform to the Unracer 
 philosophy.  It's just more ideas about how to make cycling more enjoyable 
 and accessible to all

 On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 7:39 AM, Ron Mc bulld...@gmail.com javascript: 
 wrote:

 Every day, there are frightful sights in lycra on every bike path

 On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 2:18:24 AM UTC-6, Peter M wrote:

 Every runner knows those Damn walkers are just in the way [image: ] 
 Must be winter. 
 On Feb 25, 2015 2:50 AM, 'pb' via RBW Owners Bunch rbw-owne...@
 googlegroups.com wrote:



 On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 8:18:22 PM UTC-8, Doug Williams wrote:

 pb,

 Hmmm...I'm glad that you found a few good LBS's, 


 No, I called three, and got three answers.  I made three calls.  I got 
 three answers.  I chose the three because they were representative of 
 three 
 major corporate entities.
  

 but have you read a mainstream bicycle magazine recently? I see all 
 sorts of articles and advertisements glorifying racing and bikes so 
 lightweight that they are completely impractical for normal use. I see 
 VERY 
 few articles and advertisements featuring practical and reliable bikes or 
 articles that espouse using a bike for transportation rather than for 
 only 
 racing or exercise. Transportation? What's that? A fun ride that isn't a 
 race? What's that?


 Do you read Vogue to find articles on dungarees or Harris tweed?  Do 
 you read GQ to find out what to wear when gardening?  I don't even 
 know what the mainstream bicycle magazines are any more. I do know 
 that Bicycling (does it still exist?) didn't offer a new article, 
 or cover, in twenty years.  They just recycled the old ones on a regular 
 basis (Climb better in 30 days!  Get faster in 30 days!  Prepare for a 
 century in 30 days!  Get leaner in 30 days!).  I hope you don't pay to 
 read 
 it.  Doug, are you confusing magazines with actual journalism?  Magazines 
 exist to make money, and they'll print whatever they think will sell 
 copies.  Apparently what you think is interesting isn't what they think 
 will sell copies.  Does that prove something about your local bicycle 
 shop, 
 or does it just indicate that maybe you're looking at the wrong magazine, 
 which you knew before you picked it up.   
  

 I don't think that Grant just invented this issue. The phenomena is 
 quite real. Grant's message resonates with many because the racing 
 phenomena IS real.


 No, Grant didn't invent the issue, but he has fed the flames, and kept 
 it alive, and he has perpetuated a stereotype, and he has offended folks 
 along the way.  For no reason.  And I assure you that it has affected his 
 bottom line by marginalizing him.  Canonize him for that if you wish.  


  And yes, I do (quite often) encounter smug racers in their spandex 
 uniforms who disparage practical cyclists. They are mostly wannabe's and 
 not real racers, of course. But they are numerous and annoying just the 
 same.


 Oh come on.  There are rude and irritating members of every population 
 group.  Do they represent their groups as a whole?  See comments about 
 stereotyping.  Also, people tend to see what they are looking for.  If you 
 are looking for snotty racers, you'll probably find them.  Ironically, 
 typing that reminds me of riding into my neighborhood one night from work. 
  
 My commute ride is about 40 quite hilly miles each way, a solid 2.5 hours, 
 especially after a day of work, and I had ridden both ways that day, 
 leaving the house in the morning at 5:30 (no, I do not do that commute 
 both 
 ways very often).  I was on a carbon Look, in lycra, and I had my clothes 
 and shoes and files and a laptop in my Timbuktu.  I was riding very 
 tiredly 
 into my development, done for the day, when a fellow in jeans and a plaid 
 shirt went spinning past me on a Surly.  He was sitting upright, and he 
 ignored me as he spun past with a grin.  I guess he kicked my ass.  If it 
 had been me passing him, I would have said hello, because I try to be 
 friendly to other cyclists.  

 Here is my suggestion to you and to Grant:  Promote and enjoy the kind 
 of cycling and bicycles that you like, and let those things stand on their 
 own feet.  If your LBS sucks and just wants to sell $15,000 Pinarellos and 
 one-piece suits, go to another store, or mail order, but don't tell me 
 that 
 proves every LBS sucks, or that

Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-25 Thread Mark Reimer

I disagree with the previous statement. I've done many century rides in 
good quality (Assos) lyrca kit on a number of saddles. Usually around the 
60 mile mark I'll start to get a bit sore. By the end of the ride, it's a 
constant dull ache. Doesn't matter if I use different brand of 
bibs/chamois, saddles, etc.

Last summer I did three long rides in a row (180km, 130km and 110km back to 
back) in the thinnest merino boxers and cotton shorts I could find. I was 
next to naked. Riding on a B17 Special that was only a few months old. My 
body felt fantastic the whole way, except for one section of trail filled 
with hidden gopher holes...ouch. I was amazed. 

I think the key to comfort definitely hinges on selecting the 'right' 
clothes and saddle, but what is 'right' does not ever *have* to be 
lycra/cycling kit. Nothing wrong with riding in that stuff, I do it all the 
time too. However, I've ridden 100km rides in Levi's and leather boots, 
felt fine. 



On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 9:52:58 AM UTC-6, Steve Palincsar wrote:

  On 02/25/2015 10:30 AM, Will wrote:
  
 so... was all that discomfort related clothes... or related to position on 
 bike?
  

 Clothes.  Cycling shoes eliminate foot pressure, cycling shorts have 
 padding and no seams to create pressure ridges.  The following year with no 
 changes other than clothing I did my first century in comfort.

 Also, I did not mention because it wasn't a critical factor in that 
 failure, but comparing lycra jerseys with cotton T shirts in hot and humid 
 conditions such as metro-DC area summers, it's clear that lycra is far 
 cooler and more comfortable.

 The longer distances you ride and the more difficult conditions, in 
 general the more clothing specific to the sport benefits you.  

 That's not to say it's absolutely essential: on the first century I did 
 complete, there was a kid who ride the whole thing barefoot on rat trap 
 pedals.  Don't ask me how, my feet would have been raw meat.


  

 On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 8:53:57 AM UTC-6, Steve Palincsar 
 wrote: 

 On 02/25/2015 09:41 AM, Will wrote: 
  Why do you need to wear special clothes to ride? Not arguing, just 
  curious. I've been riding for about 50 years. Newspaper bikes as a 
  before teenage years, then Raleigh racers in college. Shorts and tee 
  shirt have always worked for me. What's the advantage of bike shop 
  attire? 

 I will never forget the first time I tried to ride a century.  It was 
 1973, and I had a P15 Paramount.  I was wearing a T shirt, BVDs, cut off 
 denim jeans for shorts, some kind of sneakers and no gloves.  By the end 
 of the ride I had branded into my memory the true meaning of the Johnny 
 Cash song Ring of Fire -- blazing lines of pain on my backside from 
 the seams on both underwear and denim shorts, parallel grooves of pain 
 in my feet where the edges of the pedals had transmitted their pressure 
 through the soles of my sneakers.  My hands felt as though they were on 
 fire as well.  Every 10 miles or so I'd stop and lie down on the ground 
 and try to will the agony away, but by mile 75 I realized I'd been 
 wishing a dog would run out in front of me so I could crash and just lay 
 down on the pavement.  At that point I stopped and waited for the SAG 
 wagon.  It's the only time I've ever SAGged back from a century. 


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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-25 Thread Joe Bernard

I learned from Grant that seamless shorts/pants and a good saddle are more 
important than padding. I actually got more comfortable on my usual 
20-40-mile rides when I switched to wool unpadded underwear and Swrve baggy 
shorts; tight, padded lycra didn't work well for me. I can't vouch for what 
works on centuries, though..my body doesn't seem to like that distance on 
*any* bike in *any* type of clothing ;)

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 7:52:58 AM UTC-8, Steve Palincsar wrote:

  On 02/25/2015 10:30 AM, Will wrote:
  
 so... was all that discomfort related clothes... or related to position on 
 bike?
  

 Clothes.  Cycling shoes eliminate foot pressure, cycling shorts have 
 padding and no seams to create pressure ridges.  The following year with no 
 changes other than clothing I did my first century in comfort.

 Also, I did not mention because it wasn't a critical factor in that 
 failure, but comparing lycra jerseys with cotton T shirts in hot and humid 
 conditions such as metro-DC area summers, it's clear that lycra is far 
 cooler and more comfortable.

 The longer distances you ride and the more difficult conditions, in 
 general the more clothing specific to the sport benefits you.  

 That's not to say it's absolutely essential: on the first century I did 
 complete, there was a kid who ride the whole thing barefoot on rat trap 
 pedals.  Don't ask me how, my feet would have been raw meat.


  

 On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 8:53:57 AM UTC-6, Steve Palincsar 
 wrote: 

 On 02/25/2015 09:41 AM, Will wrote: 
  Why do you need to wear special clothes to ride? Not arguing, just 
  curious. I've been riding for about 50 years. Newspaper bikes as a 
  before teenage years, then Raleigh racers in college. Shorts and tee 
  shirt have always worked for me. What's the advantage of bike shop 
  attire? 

 I will never forget the first time I tried to ride a century.  It was 
 1973, and I had a P15 Paramount.  I was wearing a T shirt, BVDs, cut off 
 denim jeans for shorts, some kind of sneakers and no gloves.  By the end 
 of the ride I had branded into my memory the true meaning of the Johnny 
 Cash song Ring of Fire -- blazing lines of pain on my backside from 
 the seams on both underwear and denim shorts, parallel grooves of pain 
 in my feet where the edges of the pedals had transmitted their pressure 
 through the soles of my sneakers.  My hands felt as though they were on 
 fire as well.  Every 10 miles or so I'd stop and lie down on the ground 
 and try to will the agony away, but by mile 75 I realized I'd been 
 wishing a dog would run out in front of me so I could crash and just lay 
 down on the pavement.  At that point I stopped and waited for the SAG 
 wagon.  It's the only time I've ever SAGged back from a century. 


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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

some of the arguments above need clarification.  Racing Crowd should be 
defined as the general trend of the industry.  It actually doesn't include 
actual racers.  Rather, it's a droves of cyclists who leave a bike shop 
with carbon and lycra, and an industry pushing them out the door that way. 
 In many cases, they would be better served by following Grant's model.  
The letter to the editor guy doesn't get one simple fact.  Everybody else 
is selling what he wants.  It's great that we have Rivendell providing an 
alternative for the rest of us.  

On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 8:41:59 AM UTC-6, Will wrote:

 Why do you need to wear special clothes to ride? Not arguing, just 
 curious. I've been riding for about 50 years. Newspaper bikes as a before 
 teenage years, then Raleigh racers in college. Shorts and tee shirt have 
 always worked for me. What's the advantage of bike shop attire?  

 On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 8:21:59 AM UTC-6, Jim Bronson wrote:

 Guilty as charged.  In fact I am definitely not an adherent to Grant's 
 thoughts on cycling attire.  I'm wearing plum-smuggling cycling shorts 
 every time I ride, unless it's a very, very short ride.

 But unlike some folks, I don't feel any pressure to conform to the 
 Unracer philosophy.  It's just more ideas about how to make cycling more 
 enjoyable and accessible to all

 On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 7:39 AM, Ron Mc bulld...@gmail.com wrote:

 Every day, there are frightful sights in lycra on every bike path

 On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 2:18:24 AM UTC-6, Peter M wrote:

 Every runner knows those Damn walkers are just in the way [image: ] 
 Must be winter. 
 On Feb 25, 2015 2:50 AM, 'pb' via RBW Owners Bunch rbw-owne...@
 googlegroups.com wrote:



 On Tuesday, February 24, 2015 at 8:18:22 PM UTC-8, Doug Williams wrote:

 pb,

 Hmmm...I'm glad that you found a few good LBS's, 


 No, I called three, and got three answers.  I made three calls.  I got 
 three answers.  I chose the three because they were representative of 
 three 
 major corporate entities.
  

 but have you read a mainstream bicycle magazine recently? I see all 
 sorts of articles and advertisements glorifying racing and bikes so 
 lightweight that they are completely impractical for normal use. I see 
 VERY 
 few articles and advertisements featuring practical and reliable bikes 
 or 
 articles that espouse using a bike for transportation rather than for 
 only 
 racing or exercise. Transportation? What's that? A fun ride that isn't a 
 race? What's that?


 Do you read Vogue to find articles on dungarees or Harris tweed?  Do 
 you read GQ to find out what to wear when gardening?  I don't even 
 know what the mainstream bicycle magazines are any more. I do know 
 that Bicycling (does it still exist?) didn't offer a new article, 
 or cover, in twenty years.  They just recycled the old ones on a regular 
 basis (Climb better in 30 days!  Get faster in 30 days!  Prepare for a 
 century in 30 days!  Get leaner in 30 days!).  I hope you don't pay to 
 read 
 it.  Doug, are you confusing magazines with actual journalism?  Magazines 
 exist to make money, and they'll print whatever they think will sell 
 copies.  Apparently what you think is interesting isn't what they think 
 will sell copies.  Does that prove something about your local bicycle 
 shop, 
 or does it just indicate that maybe you're looking at the wrong magazine, 
 which you knew before you picked it up.   
  

 I don't think that Grant just invented this issue. The phenomena is 
 quite real. Grant's message resonates with many because the racing 
 phenomena IS real.


 No, Grant didn't invent the issue, but he has fed the flames, and kept 
 it alive, and he has perpetuated a stereotype, and he has offended folks 
 along the way.  For no reason.  And I assure you that it has affected his 
 bottom line by marginalizing him.  Canonize him for that if you wish.  


  And yes, I do (quite often) encounter smug racers in their spandex 
 uniforms who disparage practical cyclists. They are mostly wannabe's and 
 not real racers, of course. But they are numerous and annoying just the 
 same.


 Oh come on.  There are rude and irritating members of every population 
 group.  Do they represent their groups as a whole?  See comments about 
 stereotyping.  Also, people tend to see what they are looking for.  If 
 you 
 are looking for snotty racers, you'll probably find them.  Ironically, 
 typing that reminds me of riding into my neighborhood one night from 
 work.  
 My commute ride is about 40 quite hilly miles each way, a solid 2.5 
 hours, 
 especially after a day of work, and I had ridden both ways that day, 
 leaving the house in the morning at 5:30 (no, I do not do that commute 
 both 
 ways very often).  I was on a carbon Look, in lycra, and I had my clothes 
 and shoes and files and a laptop in my Timbuktu.  I was riding very 
 tiredly 
 into my development, done for the day, when a fellow in

Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-25 Thread Steve Palincsar


On 02/25/2015 09:41 AM, Will wrote:
Why do you need to wear special clothes to ride? Not arguing, just 
curious. I've been riding for about 50 years. Newspaper bikes as a 
before teenage years, then Raleigh racers in college. Shorts and tee 
shirt have always worked for me. What's the advantage of bike shop 
attire?


I will never forget the first time I tried to ride a century.  It was 
1973, and I had a P15 Paramount.  I was wearing a T shirt, BVDs, cut off 
denim jeans for shorts, some kind of sneakers and no gloves.  By the end 
of the ride I had branded into my memory the true meaning of the Johnny 
Cash song Ring of Fire -- blazing lines of pain on my backside from 
the seams on both underwear and denim shorts, parallel grooves of pain 
in my feet where the edges of the pedals had transmitted their pressure 
through the soles of my sneakers.  My hands felt as though they were on 
fire as well.  Every 10 miles or so I'd stop and lie down on the ground 
and try to will the agony away, but by mile 75 I realized I'd been 
wishing a dog would run out in front of me so I could crash and just lay 
down on the pavement.  At that point I stopped and waited for the SAG 
wagon.  It's the only time I've ever SAGged back from a century.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-25 Thread Will

so... was all that discomfort related clothes... or related to position on 
bike?


On Wednesday, February 25, 2015 at 8:53:57 AM UTC-6, Steve Palincsar wrote:

 On 02/25/2015 09:41 AM, Will wrote: 
  Why do you need to wear special clothes to ride? Not arguing, just 
  curious. I've been riding for about 50 years. Newspaper bikes as a 
  before teenage years, then Raleigh racers in college. Shorts and tee 
  shirt have always worked for me. What's the advantage of bike shop 
  attire? 

 I will never forget the first time I tried to ride a century.  It was 
 1973, and I had a P15 Paramount.  I was wearing a T shirt, BVDs, cut off 
 denim jeans for shorts, some kind of sneakers and no gloves.  By the end 
 of the ride I had branded into my memory the true meaning of the Johnny 
 Cash song Ring of Fire -- blazing lines of pain on my backside from 
 the seams on both underwear and denim shorts, parallel grooves of pain 
 in my feet where the edges of the pedals had transmitted their pressure 
 through the soles of my sneakers.  My hands felt as though they were on 
 fire as well.  Every 10 miles or so I'd stop and lie down on the ground 
 and try to will the agony away, but by mile 75 I realized I'd been 
 wishing a dog would run out in front of me so I could crash and just lay 
 down on the pavement.  At that point I stopped and waited for the SAG 
 wagon.  It's the only time I've ever SAGged back from a century. 




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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-25 Thread Matthew J

The body and the riding style must have some play in this as well.

Presumably many of the loaded cycle touring Europeans one sees on the 
Eurovelo routes are riding multi-day.  They probably do not ride a full 
100+km every day and likely stop more frequently than someone attempting a 
timed ride will.  Nonetheless it immediately jumps out at this U.S. 
person's eyes how many of them are not wearing cycle specific anything.

Lycra, Spandex, cycle shoes, etc are certainly available in Europe.  Euro 
road racing club members are just as likely to be wearing full race gear as 
those in the U.S.  Tourists however consistently hew to the GP ideal. 
 Either they are all masochists or they have discovered a happy medium many 
cycle tourists in the U.S. have not.

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[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-25 Thread Cyclofiend Jim

Well, I've just typed out and deleted about four different comments to this 
thread.  None of them did anything other than unearth and compound 
arguments.  Rather than rehash and empower those, I found myself stepping 
back and considering perspectives in the original-letter-to-the-editor's 
communication which seem consistent to others who have voiced similar 
opinions over the years. 

One thing is that they make it sound as if Grant has taken this position in 
order to sell more bikes/clothing/gear.  That it is somehow inconsistent 
with his true nature, as put on as a fallen film-star's contrition. 

Another is that his position is binary.  Either/Or.  My Way/Highway. 

A third is that it is proven wrong through a single counter-example.  

It finds ramparts and entrenchments where many of us see only expansive 
fields.  Suggests battle lines which would put many of us at odds with 
ourselves. 

Many folks need no inducement to roll out and cover the miles. It's 
unlikely the book (or other writings) were offered for them.  The more time 
you've spent riding, the more you have fallen and learned, both 
metaphorically and literally. It's a natural process to leave behind those 
things which do not help.  It's needless weight on the climb of our life.  

Many folks need a hand up, a push on the saddle, an offering of a required 
tool, a draftable figure in a challenging headwind.  A different route 
through the forest. 

Doesn't make either way right or wrong.  Take what you will.  Leave what 
you don't require.

- Jim 

cyclofiend.com 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor

2015-02-25 Thread Anne Paulson

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:38 AM, Addison Wilhite addisonwilh...@gmail.com
wrote:

 I kind of feel like the revolution is over and we won.  Anymore, while I
 can certainly find the carbon roadie types, they aren't living in the
 niche.  Just like the extreme downhillers or whatever they are called.  I
 just don't see a lot of riders so focused on 25mm tires that don't also
 accept the benefits of a fatter tire


Not true where I am in Silicon Valley . If I show up at the start of one of
my (touring) club's rides, a ride meant for people riding a moderate pace,
and I see twenty other riders, there will be one steel bike, and I'll be
riding it. There will be no bikes that take tires wider than 28 mm, other
than my Roadeo. Typically riders have 25 mm tires pumped up rock hard.
Everyone will have lycra shorts including me (haven't found anything else
that works for me) and everyone else will be wearing roadie jerseys with
sublimated graphics.

There's one club ride I go on, an easy-paced ride that I do for
camaraderie. Most of the riders are like me, over 50, in a lot of cases
well over 50. But there is one young woman who shows up on an old
Stumpjumper with flat bars, wearing street clothes. Although she has no
trouble keeping up, and she has a fine bike, almost every time she has
shown up at a ride I'm on someone will explain to her that her bike is
wrong and she needs a different one.

-- 
-- Anne Paulson

It isn't a contest. Enjoy the ride.

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[RBW] Re: Grant sets them straight with letter to editor