[OT]
There is something going on with that Compilations...
Wikipedia wrote:
> A compilation album comprises tracks, which may be previously released
> or unreleased, usually from several separate recordings by either one or
> several performers.
> > > >
- If by one artist, then generally
d6jg wrote:
> I am in complete agreement with this point of view.
>
> To base an an argument on 3 pieces of tagging software that dont write
> Compilation tags when the one with the greatest market share (iTunes)
> and at least as many others DO write said tags is just ridiculous.
no, whats ri
Mnyb wrote:
> 1. You really seems to mean your use case and think your use case is
> representative for a “majority” a common fallacy it’s
> your bias in this . But it is an opinion one can have so ok .
so you are saying this is NOT a FACT, to wit: many popular rippers do
NOT ever set comp tags
Mnyb wrote:
> Yep , that it does .
>
> Btw there is another recent improvement in 7.9.1 free text search , you
> will find your stuff
And one to come, hopefully. :) (Right now, database IDs are scanned,
too.)
QLMS 7.9.1@1.07.4 (digimaster) / QNAP 469L QTS 4.3.4
--
earthbased wrote:
> I use dbPoweramp for ripping. I try to remember to check tags before
> ripping CD. I always fill in Album Artist so if there are guest
> artists on some of the songs then it stays in Artist folder. If album
> is a true Compilation such as 'Original Club Ska' then I make s
Mnyb wrote:
> We can argue all we like , or agree to disagree .
>
> LMS is no longer a comercial offering a product so its eventually upp
> to the few poeple that actually commit code and maintain to decide what
> they want to spend thier time on .
> Mostly mherger and some other kinds souls
We can argue all we like , or agree to disagree .
LMS is no longer a comercial offering a product so its eventually upp
to the few poeple that actually commit code and maintain to decide what
they want to spend thier time on .
Mostly mherger and some other kinds souls .
I also supose they don
d6jg wrote:
> I will live with an occasional album appearing in Various Artists when
> it shouldnt and know that when it happens I may need to re-tag.
All my Samplers are stored in separate Subfolders
> > > >
- [Sampler]
- [Soundtrack]
> > >
>
Tracks in these sub and subsubfolders
d6jg wrote:
> For the record if I see a Compilation tag I delete it immediately but my
> ripper / tagger of choice has too many other features I do like to throw
> it away and use one of the non Compilation tag variety. I will live with
> an occasional album appearing in Various Artists when it s
Mnyb wrote:
> 1. You really seems to mean your use case and think your use case is
> representative for a majority a common fallacy its your bias in this
> . But it is an opinion one can have so ok .
>
> 2. Does it matters at all ? All tag and rip software I used gives you
> the power to add
BJW wrote:
> i think i'm beginning to understand your issues with logic.
Please calm down
I did have a issue that i cant handle - i just want to help you.
-My issues with logic- - well if you had written something about my
issues with english i cant argue against that. BUT...
Someone has
1. You really seems to mean your use case and think your use case is
representative for a majority a common fallacy its your bias in this
. But it is an opinion one can have so ok .
2. Does it matters at all ? All tag and rip software I used gives you
the power to add any tag you like for exam
d6jg wrote:
> I didnÂt say that all the rippers I used created Compilation tags. I
> merely said that I had used lots of different software to put into
> context the fact that I am aware that not all software is the same.
> You have used 3 examples. WinAmp, WMP and EAC. In my view (and I suspect
BJW wrote:
> good lord. to wit:
>
>
>
> see the BOLD above. come on man, knock it off.
>
>
>
> wow, where to begin?
>
> first of all, i never said server shouldn't use comp tags! i never
> would say such a stupid thing. i have been arguing for a pref to turn
> automatic VA logic detect
DJanGo wrote:
> wait .. you didnt say anything wrong but you typed a lot and if your
> unable to see our answers where we already prooved your bullsh1t i cant
> help you and i wont.
> last order last word i am out of fish
actually, i proved you wrong. u misunderstood and continue to willfu
d6jg wrote:
> I didnt say EAC specifically did at any point. I know it doesnt.
good lord. to wit:
d6jg wrote:
> I repeat you are wrong. I have ripped CDs using iTunes (Windows & Mac),
> XLD, *EAC,* DbPoweramp, as well as the Linux ripper/tagged in
> Vortexboxe. I have never manually created
BJW wrote:
> so now i'm a troll? what exactly did i say that was wrong? please, be
> specific, SHOW ME.
> \snip
> /snap
> what i said is FACT. not subjective, not an opinion, not up for
> debate.
wait .. you didnt say anything wrong but you typed a lot and if your
unable to see our answers w
d6jg wrote:
> I didnt say EAC specifically did at any point. I know it doesnt.
> You on the other hand have said that MOST dont. I disagree. iTunes
> does. XLD does. The ripper in Vortexbox does. DbPoweramp (the paid
> version) allows you to choose before you rip. It is the only software
> tha
DJanGo wrote:
> please please do not wrote something like thes unprooved and wrong
> things again...
>
> Do your 'homework' (https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2483651)
>
> Since my old employer is a audio content provider, i do know how things
> work eg. if you are in the gracenote content
d6jg wrote:
> I repeat you are wrong. I have ripped CDs using iTunes (Windows & Mac),
> XLD, EAC, DbPoweramp, as well as the Linux ripper/tagged in Vortexboxe.
> I have never manually created any Compilation tags but lo and behold I
> have some albums where such tags exist. Where did they come fr
BJW wrote:
> but just to be clear, that all has nothing to do with the fact, that
> most rippers don't assign comp tags at all (as part of the ripping
> process).
please please do not wrote something like thes unprooved and wrong
things again...
Do your 'homework' (https://discussions.apple.com
BJW wrote:
> ok, this is getting annoying. you completely missed the point of what i
> was saying.
>
> first of all, i already said servers job is not to expect perfection,
> that of course garbage in will = garbage out.
>
> the point i am making above, which is 100% true and not refuted by wh
dolodobendan wrote:
> Yes. I never rely on some online tags. There's always something wrong
> with it. Always.
when i rip something, (mainly with EAC), i get the fields filled in by
the online DBs, and then i edit them to correct them if necessary prior
to the rip. this has been the case for wh
d6jg wrote:
> That is just not true. All ripping software uses some online database or
> other to get its tags. If the online database contains the wrong tags so
> will the resulting files.
ok, this is getting annoying. you completely missed the point of what i
was saying.
first of all, i alre
DJanGo wrote:
> You know that itunes integration sometimes broke, cause itunes had
> changed?
> You know that f*#!1ng Compilation Tag is a Itunes "Gummick"?
yes, i'm well aware that comp tags, which server relies heavily on, are
an apple fudge. at this point, does it matter? comp tags are in F
dolodobendan wrote:
> 1. BROWSABLE TAGS:
>
>
>
> 2. SUBMENUS
>
> Maybe 2) is already possible with LibraryDemo?
i like these ideas, and have np with/support them. can't speak to the
plugin, b/c i haven't used it, (or Erlands). i think it would be good
to see what other classical users migh
DJanGo wrote:
>
> again its techie... but LibraryDemo is a very nice thing - my child
> loves the things i do with that.
I don't care about techie. :) Would you post your modifications here?
Btw., what's the main difference between this library plugin and
Additional Browse Modes? If both apply
BJW wrote:
> i know what you're saying, but i don't agree... many major rippers,
> like WMP, winamp, EAC, etc... will tag without setting comp tags. this
> is a common scenario that is to be expected. the job isn't to expect
> perfection, the job is to expect highly likely scenarios.
>
>
Tha
BJW wrote:
> and yes, it was always techie, which imo lead to that failure, but not
> on purpose. the mere fact that it included "itunes integration" shows
> that it was trying to anticipate non-techie, common use scenarios, at
> least, once upon a time. whats more common than itunes?
You know
BJW wrote:
>
> it would be good if we could list all known tags [field values] server
> already reads into the server, and make a list of all the ones we would
> want added, be it for classical, ratings, what have you.
Since my only strong opinion here is about how classical music is
neglected,
Mnyb wrote:
> But common use cases are less common than one migth think .
> Sadly the business of playing digital files has no real standards or
> agreed opon ways to do
> Stuff .
i know what you're saying, but i don't agree... many major rippers,
like WMP, winamp, EAC, etc... will tag without
Mnyb wrote:
> Mherger has actually extended LMS to be easier for anyone to extend
> aditional browse modes plugin
> Is just one thing that came about out off this.
>
> If i understod him correctly . If someone today wanted to write erland
> like plugins that changes how we browse and search
Mnyb wrote:
> I agree on flexibility.
>
> But common use cases are less common than one migth think .
> Sadly the business of playing digital files has no real standards or
> agreed opon ways to do
> Stuff .
> More things could happen if people with skills wanted to join the
> project .
>
> At
I agree on flexibility.
But common use cases are less common than one migth think .
Sadly the business of playing digital files has no real standards or
agreed opon ways to do
Stuff .
Observe how badly digital downloads are tagged rigth from the vendor or
label :/
Indont even think tags is the
i am fully aware and agree that 7.9.x is better, and so on... but
frankly it pales in comparison to winamp or other such apps. its clunky
and awkward, ultimately frustrating, and while i'm fully aware it is
unlikely to change, my points remain valid.
its funny, anytime i bring this to light, i
Mherger has actually extended LMS to be easier for anyone to extend
aditional browse modes plugin
Is just one thing that came about out off this.
If i understod him correctly . If someone today wanted to write erland
like plugins that changes how we browse and search and creates menus
based o
and slowly the tide turns... :)
this is what i was saying from the start. if we take a fresh approach
and consider these higher level questions, we can come up with a better,
more logical system based on common use scenarios than what we have now,
both in terms of scanning, and presentation (UI
d6jg wrote:
> BTW Heavy Cream is one of the better Cream best of compilations out
> there !!
agree. :cool:
*Home:* VortexBox 4TB (2.4) > LMS 7.9.1 > Transporter, Touch, Boom,
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Radio w/Battery (all ethern
garym wrote:
> Oddly, Roon will call something like Heavy Cream a compilation. Its
> definition of a comp includes a greatest hits approach even if single
> artist. I dont like this approach (one can undo this in Roon but it is a
> manual approach so would take a lot of work).
That is (was) a st
Oddly, Roon will call something like Heavy Cream a compilation. Its
definition of a comp includes a greatest hits approach even if single
artist. I dont like this approach (one can undo this in Roon but it is a
manual approach so would take a lot of work).
*Home:* VortexBox 4TB (2.4) > LMS 7.9.
Mnyb wrote:
>
> I upvote erlands patch to turn of VA logic , you do that in the
> byggzilla btw.
Thank you, I casted my vote.
QLMS 7.9.1@1.07.2 (digimaster) / QNAP 469L QTS 4.3.4
dolodobendan's Profile: http://forums.sl
d6jg wrote:
> Yes but that would put it into "Various Artists" (or whatever you called
> it in Settings.
Yes, but...
i call compilations compilations rather than various artists. I also
use 7.9.1 and have setting for showing album artists and artists menu
items separately.
With this in min
More thinking .
I upvote erlands patch to turn of VA logic , you do that in the
byggzilla btw.
d6jg is rigth .
You just cant trust taggers and especially not thier dB and accept the
tags rigth off , check them manually each rip .
You cant build a good app if you try second guess the usaul user
dolodobendan wrote:
> Isn't there ALBUMSORT? Never really thought about it, but what happens
> if you'd use year-month ("1979-11") for year?
Good point
I shall experiment
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PI3 PCP/LMS STORAGE QNAP TS419P (NFS)
*Living Room* - Joggler & SB3 -> Onkyo TS606 ->
d6jg wrote:
>
> My OCD also doesn't like the fact that LMS can sort by Album / Year but
> then alphabetically so that if a band released two albums in the same
> year they can end up being in the wrong order if the band in question
> didn't have the foresight to name them in line with LMS's requ
d6jg wrote:
> I can't speak for Classical music as I don't have that much but
> certainly my experience with popular music is that if the stuff is
> tagged correctly in the first place then there are no issues. Inevitably
> this means doing it carefully and not replying 100% on auto rippers /
> t
garym wrote:
> I wouldnt call it a comp either, but if I wanted it to show up under
> compilations in lms, I would only need to add a tag, COMPILATION = 1.
Yes but that would put it into "Various Artists" (or whatever you called
it in Settings).
In traditional physical filing I'd have the follo
d6jg wrote:
> but "Best of Cream" is a compilation by single artist - Cream. I have
> never considered the latter to be a compilation in LMS terms and I don't
> know how you could tag it to be so. Anyone?
I wouldnt call it a comp either, but if I wanted it to show up under
compilations in lms, I
BJW wrote:
> It could be. Erland submitted a patch to add a pref that did that,
> namely toggle VA logic detection. When off, only explicit comp tags
> would be recognized.
>
> http://bugs.slimdevices.com/show_bug.cgi?id=8324
Ill see if i voted on that already
I don't wish to start a bigger argument but earlier someone suggested
that most ripping software managed to tag the files correctly.
I was thinking about this statement and I am not sure it is entirely
true.
Most ripping software uses online sources for its tags whether that be
MusicBrainz, Disc
garym wrote:
> Excellent summary Mynb. Yes, too bad it couldnt be simply COMPILATION =
> 1 treated as comp otherwise not.
It could be. Erland submitted a patch to add a pref that did that,
namely toggle VA logic detection. When off, only explicit comp tags
would be recognized.
using: win7
dolodobendan wrote:
> Maybe that's true in *your* case. Again, I'm quite happy how things are
> handled.
You keep trying to make this about my case or yours. That isn't the
point. We both know how to workaround most of the issues to get
something close enough to what we personally desire.
How
BJW wrote:
> absent an albumartist tag (or comp=0), server just assumes any CD with
> an artist mismatch are ALL comps. that rarely is the desired outcome
> for *all* those types of CDs.
>
> similarly, if they all have albumartist tags, server just assumes NONE
> of them are comps, (assuming no
Mnyb wrote:
> Also I realised that I nowadays use the additional browse modes plugin
> which gives me a compilation top level item in the UI if I so desire
> which I do .
>
> So this special artist name is moot if you use additional browse modes
> so you relay can set it to Mister Mxyzptlk or
Also I realised that I nowadays use the additional browse modes plugin
which gives me a compilation top level item in the UI if I so desire
which I do .
So this special artist name is moot if you use additional browse modes
so you relay can set it to Mister Mxyzptlk or bug9523 and
ha
Excellent summary Mynb. Yes, too bad it couldnt be simply COMPILATION =
1 treated as comp otherwise not.
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Radio w/Battery (all ethernet
BJW wrote:
> i'm not quite sure what you're asking? i'll attempt to answer this way,
> but please let me know if u need further clarification or if i missed
> your point:
>
> i have about 85k tracks or so, and thousands of CDs ripped. while a lot
> of them have no artist mismatches, a lot of t
dolodobendan wrote:
> Because "i assure you"? As I said before and will repeat one last time:
> The scenario you describe isn't an issue with MY collection, because I
> do not have discs with different artists and an album artist that is
> also a collection. I'm still trying to imagine such album
Mnyb wrote:
> I have a LOT of disc with albumartist tag that never gets treated as a
> comp or finds their way into ÂVarius artist ?
>
> When does this happen exactly
i'm not quite sure what you're asking? i'll attempt to answer this way,
but please let me know if u need further clarificati
I have a LOT of disc with albumartist tag that never gets treated as a
comp or finds their way into Varius artist ?
When does this happen exactly
Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH 2 x
Merid
If one searches the forum you’ll find many threads and 100s of
posts from 8-10 years ago related to the issues of compilations, use of
various artists, the concept of tracksrtist, etc. there were lots of
opinions and folks could never agree. to be fair, I was initially caught
off guard with Lms
BJW wrote:
> it seems it works for most people? and you know this how?
>
> putting aside that this product has failed, it worked for audiophiles
> who were willing to workaround issues. thats not most people, i assure
> you.
Because "i assure you"? As I said before and will repeat one last ti
dolodobendan wrote:
> It's a design choice that got your collection wrong sometimes and mine
> never. And it seems that this assumptions works for most people. These
> people all would have to set compilation=1 just for you not having to
> set it to zero.
it seems it works for most people? and
dolodobendan wrote:
> I really have to imagine that, because I do not have such discs.
i bet u do have such discs, if u have any comps at all. what u might
not have is a ripper that rips discs that way, or maybe u changed how it
rips such discs.
again, its VERY common. WMP, winamp, EAC, etc..
BJW wrote:
>
> As I said, and I stand by it 100%, determining that something is NOT a
> comp just bc it has an albumartist tag present, (absent an explicit
> comp=1 tag), IS a logical fallacy, a demonstrably false assumption.
>
> Why argue against something obvious?
It's a design choice that g
BJW wrote:
> It has nothing to do with my collection or yours. What I am saying in
> this one particular example is that server starts off with a logical
> fallacy, which once again is a file, if it has no comp tag=1, and it
> does have albumartist tags, is by definition, not a comp.
>
> So ima
DJanGo wrote:
> Yapp - do you want to know some background ?
>
> Peter Pawlowski once one one the Winamp developer started another Player
> called foobar 2000 cause of winamp was (@ 2000) too much
> gimmickblowup
>
> If you want to compare a "player" like Winamp with lms you need to
> compa
BJW wrote:
> Try playing around with winamp, it's actually a lot of fun to use.
Yapp - do you want to know some background ?
Peter Pawlowski once one one the Winamp developer started another Player
called foobar 2000 cause of winamp was (@ 2000) too much
gimmickblowup
If you want to compar
DJanGo wrote:
> 82.458 Tracks are scanned in 112 minutes - that means each track is
> scanned in ~0,0814960343447573 secs...
I have roughly the same amount of tracks. Winamp can scan them
magnitudes of order faster when freshly scanned, and exponentially
faster when rescanned, and unlike server
dolodobendan wrote:
> We seem to have a fundamentally different music collection. For my
> collection it works great, for yours, well, not. But however this is
> implemented, one of us would have to set COMPILATION (as long as there's
> no switch between these options). Now you have to set it to
BJW wrote:
> I know, I wrote it. :)
>
> What I am saying, is absent any comp tags, server will always decide
> something isn't a comp simply bc it also has albumartists tags. This is
> just one example of erroneous assumptions the software makes at a
> foundational level. Something isn't nece
I know, I wrote it. :)
What I am saying, is absent any comp tags, server will always decide
something isn't a comp simply bc it also has albumartists tags. This is
just one example of erroneous assumptions the software makes at a
foundational level. Something isn't necessarily not a comp just
garym wrote:
> The only possibility I'm aware of is one case: If one does NOT have
> ALBUM ARTIST filled in *and* there is at least one track on the album
> that has a differing artist or artists, LMS will treat that album as a
> compilation album (even though there is no COMPILATION tag).
That
dolodobendan wrote:
> I do not see this behavior on my system. Maybe you should check your
> tags and settings.
The only possibility I'm aware of is one case: If one does NOT have
ALBUM ARTIST filled in *and* there is at least one track on the album
that has a differing artist or artists, LMS w
BJW wrote:
> The mere presence of an albumartist tag shouldn't mean something is a
> comp or not
I do not see this behavior on my system. Maybe you should check your
tags and settings.
QLMS 7.9.1@1.07.2 (digimaster) / QNAP 469L QTS 4.3.4
---
BJW wrote:
> I think users can make constructive criticism without being attacked by
> German dogs, ha.
contructive critic is always welcome.
btw:
BJW wrote:
> making scans and queries faster and more reliable.
82.458 Tracks are scanned in 112 minutes - that means each track is
scanned in ~0,
BJW wrote:
> So much of what is whacky in server is bc of legacy thinking, instead of
> a fresh, common sense approach that would be much more intuitive and
> also make more sense under the hood of server, making scans and queries
> faster and more reliable.
> grep "18-02-23" /var/log/squeezebo
Ha, I fully admit I'm no programmer, but hell, there's a reason this
didn't take off. I think users can make constructive criticism without
being attacked by German dogs, ha.
using: win7 64 + lms 7.9 & duet & ipads w/the logitech app, and ipeng
on an ipod
http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php
[OT]
So many issues with that lms and so many people who do know how to make
a better Server
Why
- All these People stuck with that boring system?
- i didnt find the server with that fresh, common sense approach from
these people?
in germany we like to say: -dogs that bark do not b
My guess is no major overhaul will be done to the system to fix the many
systemic issues, but if there was going to be such an attempt, it would
be wise to rethink servers whole approach, which is completely bizarre
and odd and not similar to any other software.
For instance, tags have albumartis
1. In general I leave ALBUM ARTIST blank.
2. If I have an album that has at least one track with differing
artists, then I must include an ALBUM ARTIST otherwise LMS will
automatically treat this as a compilation CD (even though there is no
COMPILATION tag).
3. On a true compilation, I include th
rmariger wrote:
> I too am frustrated with how
..some users blame lms for their "bad" tagged tracks..
Never ever use artistsort or albumartistsort unless you really want it
and know whats happen after that.
Never use the TextFrame TCMP (no matter what value) unless you want to
sort that as Com
What I do w recordings like the Roger Waters mentioned is add the artist
to the track title-works for me
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View this thread: http://forums.slimdevice
rmariger wrote:
>
> I suggest that the software be modified so that albums for which there
> is an albumartist, the ARTIST tag varies, and does not have a tag
> COMPILATION = 1, be catalogued under the albumartist and that the
> squeezebox player display ARTIST-TITLE. The software should treat
I too am frustrated with how the software catalogues compilations. All
of the proposed solutions above fail for me. I have run tests with only
three albums in the database:
1. A solo album for which artist = albumartist =
artistsort = trackartist = Brickman, Jim;
2. A compilati
see the links in my sig, and be aware that its advisable to do all the
following imo:
1. keep all files from any one CD in one folder.
2. only use comp=1 tags if u want them, don't use any others. will
force comp status.
3. del all disc tags. (optional, but may solve weird issues)
4. treat TPE2
kidstypike wrote:
> I assume ypu do a "Clear library and rescan" after making changes to
> your tags?
>
> A "look for new and changed media files" doesn't really tidy up all
> changes.
Several full scans in fact. I may do "look for new . . ." when just
testing a theory by editing one album.
I assume ypu do a "Clear library and rescan" after making changes to
your tags?
A "look for new and changed media files" doesn't really tidy up all
changes.
LMS 7.9 on a Raspberry Pi 3/piCorePlayer 3.10, playlists and LMS cache
on a USB stick, 25K+ music library on a WD MyCloud network drive,
garym wrote:
> What are your settings on this page in LMS > Settings (this is from
> mine, I'm on 7.9)
>
> 22134
My "Various Artists" box is blank. That certainly explains the
connection to Compilations.
All else the same except the number of entries for "New Music Limit.
-
garym wrote:
> Odd. Are all the tracks of the album contained in the same subdirectory?
Yes.
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kidstypike wrote:
> I use mp3tag to tag my files as *I* want them, (yes, it does FLAC too),
> and I let nothing else, and I mean nothing else get their filthy hands
> on them.
>
> You mention JRiver, MediaMonkey and iTunes, and then expect LMS to play
> good for you?
I use JRiver to do my taggi
john greenwood wrote:
> If only that worked for me. I have several albums where all of the
> tracks have the same artist and a matching (the same) album artist. But
> LMS still treats them as compilations.
Odd. Are all the tracks of the album contained in the same subdirectory?
*Home:* Vor
john greenwood wrote:
>
> And I still have no explanation for why a number of my so-called
> compilations do not appear at all when I search by genre/artist.
What are your settings on this page in LMS > Settings (this is from
mine, I'm on 7.9)
22134
+
kidstypike wrote:
> I use mp3tag to tag my files as *I* want them, (yes, it does FLAC too),
> and I let nothing else, and I mean nothing else get their filthy hands
> on them.
>
> You mention JRiver, MediaMonkey and iTunes, and then expect LMS to play
> good for you?
Agree. I use mp3tag. If th
john greenwood wrote:
> If only that worked for me. I have several albums where all of the
> tracks have the same artist and a matching (the same) album artist. But
> LMS still treats them as compilations. I had a lot of albums where that
> was the case when the ARTIST and ALBUM ARTIST contain
garym wrote:
> if an album has any track that has a different artist (or artists), then
> LMS will treat it as a compilation. For example I could have a Steve
> Earle album, but on one track the ARTIST tag has "Steve Earle; Lucinda
> Williams" then the album will be treated as a Compilation. T
john greenwood wrote:
> So far, the only way I have found to avoid the issue is to make sure
> that none of my albums are treated as compilations. That's not a real
> problem for me as I did not use the tag/categorization for anything.
> But it turns out to be easier said than done. LMS seems
So far, the only way I have found to avoid the issue is to make sure
that none of my albums are treated as compilations. That's not a real
problem for me as I did not use the tag/categorization for anything.
But it turns out to be easier said than done. LMS seems to be rather
stubborn about kee
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