On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 12:08:53AM +0100, Radomir Cernoch wrote:
Guenther Meyer píše v Čt 21. 05. 2009 v 00:51 +0200:
Am Wednesday 20 May 2009 schrieb Jacek Konieczny:
That would not work very well in Poland. Town/city/village
administrative border usually differ from the built up zone
On Friday 22 May 2009, Andy Allan wrote:
On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com
wrote:
A typical city here would look like all roads inside the built-up
area inside one relation, and when there are roads inside it with
another speed limit, tag those ways with
On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 11:19 AM, Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com wrote:
On Friday 22 May 2009, Andy Allan wrote:
On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com
wrote:
A typical city here would look like all roads inside the built-up
area inside one relation, and when there
On Friday 22 May 2009, you wrote:
See if you think that my stuff was about rendering, then you are
missing the point. It's all about data processing. Even the bit about
translucent colouring is not about rendering (that's easy -
opacity=0.7) it's about *processing* (unwinding relations into
Ben Laenen wrote:
On Friday 22 May 2009, Andy Allan wrote:
On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com
wrote:
A typical city here would look like all roads inside the built-up
area inside one relation, and when there are roads inside
On Friday 22 May 2009, you wrote:
For years and years of my professional career I had to listen to the
stuff people (my customers) spouted about gathering data yet then had
absolutely no real idea of how it would be used. That was some magic
computers worked. Processing the data (of which
The rulesets for speeds are already complicated, and getting more
complicated as streets are slowly converted from 50kph to 30kph (we're about
to have a mass-conversion here in Oxford).
Relations are complicated to the casual user, and probably best used for
sequences of Ways where someone might
( CHANGE THE EMAIL ADDRESS :( These odd sites that don't return list
posts to the list ARE a pain! )
Guenther Meyer wrote:
Am Wednesday 20 May 2009 schrieb Greg Troxel:
we in germany have the three base zones I mentioned, but it's no problem tom
extend these for countries with more basic
So as long as exception roads have speed tags, what's the
problem?
None as far as I can see, but by the time you've checked every road
in the zone to see whether it is an exception, and presumably tagged
it as checked so other mappers know it has been checked so they
don't also need to go and
Am Thursday 21 May 2009 schrieb Lester Caine:
For routing purposes, the speed for each segment of a route is
important, and for speed I am sure that the ideal situation is that ALL
highway segments have their speeds assigned ( ADDING VARIABLE for those
motorway flyover routes which pass over
Am Thursday 21 May 2009 schrieb Radomir Cernoch:
Guenther Meyer píše v Čt 21. 05. 2009 v 00:51 +0200:
Am Wednesday 20 May 2009 schrieb Jacek Konieczny:
That would not work very well in Poland. Town/city/village
administrative border usually differ from the built up zone borders.
On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 10:57:52PM +0100, Radomir Cernoch wrote:
The problem with the polygon is that you set a default without checking
every
individual street.
Yes, but there are other people as well. What if they add a new street
to the area you have carefully checked and then
I would suggest: motorway, urban, rural.
Mike Harris
-Original Message-
From: Guenther Meyer [mailto:d@sordidmusic.com]
Sent: 20 May 2009 06:44
To: Talk Openstreetmap
Subject: [OSM-talk] zones for motorway/in town/outof town?
hi,
currently there is a discussion on the german
On Thursday 21 May 2009 01:24:36 Radomir Cernoch wrote:
Cartinus píše v Čt 21. 05. 2009 v 01:01 +0200:
It is completely possible for a village ringroad on a bridge
(highway=primary or secondary) to have a maxspeed of 80 km/h due to being
outside the build-up zone, not because there is a
Guenther Meyer wrote:
So while discussing HOW the default speed for roads are calculated is
important, can we not simply apply that speed without adding another
layer of complexity?
I wouldn't do that, because it's a derived value depending on a lot of things
like road type, time of day,
Am Thursday 21 May 2009 schrieb Cartinus:
The ringroad does not have the tag maxspeed=80 !!!
It has a maxspeed of 80 km/h because that is the default maxspeed of
roads out of town in that country. Out of town was one of the three
zones in the initial idea. It is defined by the country
On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 9:42 AM, Cartinus carti...@xs4all.nl wrote:
If you ask for the limit on the ringroad, the answer is:
80, because it has the tag maxspeed=80, which has greater importance
than the zone-50.[...]
The ringroad does not have the tag maxspeed=80 !!!
It has a maxspeed of 80
Guenther Meyer wrote:
Am Thursday 21 May 2009 schrieb Lester Caine:
Guenther Meyer wrote:
So while discussing HOW the default speed for roads are calculated is
important, can we not simply apply that speed without adding another
layer of complexity?
I wouldn't do that, because it's a derived
Am Thursday 21 May 2009 schrieb Lester Caine:
ALL roads have a defined maximum speed limit ... is this just a matter
of 'conversion to english'? The fact that a road does not have a
specific sign is not something that maxspeed is concerned with? At least
in my reading of the guide lines on
Guenther Meyer píše v Čt 21. 05. 2009 v 09:20 +0200:
Am Thursday 21 May 2009 schrieb Radomir Cernoch:
Hi, this sounds reasonable. But is there a difference between
boundary=administrative and zone:administrative=*?
it's exactly the same, just the name is a different one.
I would propose
Guenther Meyer wrote:
Am Thursday 21 May 2009 schrieb Lester Caine:
ALL roads have a defined maximum speed limit ... is this just a matter
of 'conversion to english'? The fact that a road does not have a
specific sign is not something that maxspeed is concerned with? At least
in my reading of
Am Thursday 21 May 2009 schrieb Lester Caine:
right, all roads have a defined limit.
the proposal is:
if there is a sign for a speed limit: use maxspeed = ...
if not: use zone:traffic = ...
the maxspeed here can be derived from the zone tag.
For routing purposes ... building the time
Am Thursday 21 May 2009 schrieb Radomir Cernoch:
Guenther Meyer píše v Čt 21. 05. 2009 v 09:20 +0200:
Am Thursday 21 May 2009 schrieb Radomir Cernoch:
Hi, this sounds reasonable. But is there a difference between
boundary=administrative and zone:administrative=*?
it's exactly the
Florian Lohoff píše v Čt 21. 05. 2009 v 09:21 +0200:
There is no solution other than local survey - everything else is
guessing - and IMHO openstreetmap is a collection of facts not guesses.
So better have no fact than wrong guesses - at least thats true
for maxspeed.
Than why do we have
Radomir Cernoch schrieb:
...
Sorry, I maybe didn't make myself clear. Polygon rules do not apply
for motorways. Is there any country, where a highway inside a city has
different speed limit from the highway outside of the city? Even if yes,
this can be specified in the set of country-specific
On Thursday 21 May 2009 16:26:04 Guenther Meyer wrote:
what we could do as a hint for routers and drivers, is adding the
information that the road is equipped with a traffic guidance system.
Looking at tagwatch, you can find maxspeed=signals in use already.
--
m.v.g.,
Cartinus
Hi,
your mail suggests it's time for recapitulation.
Firstly let's describe the without-polygon model:
1) Road has tag maxspeed.
= I have the answer based purely on maxspeed tag.
= Stop any further reasoning.
2) Road has tag zone:traffic
= I have the answer based on the combination of
Am Thursday 21 May 2009 schrieb Cartinus:
On Thursday 21 May 2009 16:26:04 Guenther Meyer wrote:
what we could do as a hint for routers and drivers, is adding the
information that the road is equipped with a traffic guidance system.
Looking at tagwatch, you can find maxspeed=signals in use
Radomir Cernoch schrieb:
...
Ok, then why should we have the polygons?
** It models the law more accurately.*
...
this assumption is not correct.
Indeed it more incorrect than tagging trafficzone=* on the Ways itself,
becasue nether private property nor public parcs, nor anykind of other
On Thursday 21 May 2009 17:21:18 Guenther Meyer wrote:
Looking at tagwatch, you can find maxspeed=signals in use already.
is this tag used for such things also, not only traffic lights?
fine!
AFAIK a traffic light is a node object with a highway=traffic_signals.
AFAIK a way with
Am Thursday 21 May 2009 schrieb Radomir Cernoch:
Ok, then why should we have the polygons?
we are talking here about the mentioned tags for the traffic, not
administrative or other boundaries, right?
ok,. let's see:
* It models the law more accurately.
false. the traffic laws apply to streets
Radomír Černoch schrieb:
2009/5/21 Mario Salvini salv...@t-online.de:
Radomir Cernoch schrieb:
...
Ok, then why should we have the polygons?
** It models the law more accurately.*
...
this assumption is not correct.
Indeed it more incorrect than tagging trafficzone=* on
* The question of querying node within a polygon or line withing a
polygon. So far it seems that such query is doable using PostGis.
Nevertheless this needs to be confirmed.
postgis or other similar software.
a lot of overhead that could be avoided. not good for developing software
Cartinus wrote:
AFAIK a way with maxspeed=signals is used for those portals with the
electronic speed signs you see over the motorway.
I actually hope mappers only use maxspeed=signals for those motorway
sections where the speed routinely changes based on congestion or time
of day. Not to
So while it seems to be a polygon vs tags on ways discussion:
I wonder what people have against using relations to combine all roads
in one built-up area, or one maxspeed zone, or some other kind of zone.
It's really the cleanest option and allows for additional tags like a
name, and it
Am Thursday 21 May 2009 schrieb Ben Laenen:
So while it seems to be a polygon vs tags on ways discussion:
I wonder what people have against using relations to combine all roads
in one built-up area, or one maxspeed zone, or some other kind of zone.
It's really the cleanest option and allows
Ben Laenen píše v Čt 21. 05. 2009 v 17:54 +0200:
So while it seems to be a polygon vs tags on ways discussion:
I wonder what people have against using relations to combine all roads
in one built-up area, or one maxspeed zone, or some other kind of zone.
It's really the cleanest option and
On 21 May 2009, at 17:33, Radomir Cernoch wrote:
Ben Laenen píše v Čt 21. 05. 2009 v 17:54 +0200:
So while it seems to be a polygon vs tags on ways discussion:
I wonder what people have against using relations to combine all
roads
in one built-up area, or one maxspeed zone, or some other
Ben Laenen wrote:
It's really the cleanest option and allows for additional tags like a
name, and it allows everything to be more clearly defined,
I don't see why that would be the case. For every way with tag X, Y
applies isn't any less clearly defined than For every way in a
relation with
Radomir Cernoch schrieb:
Ben Laenen píše v Čt 21. 05. 2009 v 17:54 +0200:
So while it seems to be a polygon vs tags on ways discussion:
I wonder what people have against using relations to combine all roads
in one built-up area, or one maxspeed zone, or some other kind of zone.
It's
We already have default speed limits within urban zones defined by a
polygone. No relation here. Now, you are talking about an exception to
the default speed limit and I hope, it is a minority of streets in
this case. Then just simply add the tag maxspeed to these ways, thus
overriding any default
On Thursday 21 May 2009, Guenther Meyer wrote:
relations are one of only three basic structures in OSM (node - way
- relation), can we please assume that someone mapping with OSM can
grasp three concepts? He already should be able to deal with them
now anyway.
they are, but at least for
On Thursday 21 May 2009, Mario Salvini wrote:
Even every relevant road for _ONE_ city in one relation won't work,
because the membercount of a relation is limited since API 0.6.
This methode won't create any benefit.
Well, apparently it isn't limited, and luckily it isn't. It would be an
On Thursday 21 May 2009, Radomir Cernoch wrote:
Ben Laenen píše v Čt 21. 05. 2009 v 17:54 +0200:
So while it seems to be a polygon vs tags on ways discussion:
I wonder what people have against using relations to combine all
roads in one built-up area, or one maxspeed zone, or some other
On 21 May 2009, at 18:17, Ben Laenen wrote:
On Thursday 21 May 2009, Mario Salvini wrote:
Even every relevant road for _ONE_ city in one relation won't work,
because the membercount of a relation is limited since API 0.6.
This methode won't create any benefit.
Well, apparently it isn't
Ed Loach e...@loach.me.uk writes:
So as long as exception roads have speed tags, what's the
problem?
None as far as I can see, but by the time you've checked every road
in the zone to see whether it is an exception, and presumably tagged
it as checked so other mappers know it has been
On Thursday 21 May 2009, you wrote:
On 21 May 2009, at 18:17, Ben Laenen wrote:
On Thursday 21 May 2009, Mario Salvini wrote:
Even every relevant road for _ONE_ city in one relation won't
work, because the membercount of a relation is limited since API
0.6. This methode won't create any
On Thu, May 21, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Ben Laenen benlae...@gmail.com wrote:
A typical city here would look like all roads inside the built-up area
inside one relation, and when there are roads inside it with another
speed limit, tag those ways with maxspeed.
Jesus.
* Anyone who doesn't know what
In my part of Australia, we have a speed limit that applies to every
non-rural street that is not specifically signed as being another
speed - basically case (b) below. The wording used in the law is
built up area. (In practice, the test for a built up area seems
to be does it have street
On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 6:44 AM, Guenther Meyer d@sordidmusic.com wrote:
hi,
currently there is a discussion on the german list about tagging speed limits
respectively different zones. as there are implied also other things than
maxspeed there are proposed three default zones, derived
Hi,
recently we've had the same discussion in Czech list. The conclusion was
to use 'place' for tagging areas where city speed limits apply.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:place
The place key can also apply to an area (area) drawn around the
perimeter of the place. It not specified
a) motorway: that's very clear, therea are no or very high limits.
b) city areas with limited speed and some restrictions
c) everything else, mostly out of town.
In Czech republic there are different rules for motorways inside
city area (maxspeed=80) and outside (maxspeed=130). So case d)
MP schrieb:
a) motorway: that's very clear, therea are no or very high limits.
b) city areas with limited speed and some restrictions
c) everything else, mostly out of town.
In Czech republic there are different rules for motorways inside
city area (maxspeed=80) and outside
Hi,
I would like to ask about the proposed feature 'trafficzone'. If I
understand it right, it proposes to add a tag to _every_ highway and
_every_ road in the city. I'm afraid that this solution is highly
redundant in the amount of information and therefore it's likely that
someone will forgot
On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 11:59:05AM +0100, Radomir Cernoch wrote:
In the Czech list we ended up with the following solution, which tries
to copy the legislation (which is a good starting point, I guess):
1) Every road is by default 'rural' road (speed limit 90 km/h).
2) Every highway has
2009/5/20 Jacek Konieczny jaj...@jajcus.net:
On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 11:59:05AM +0100, Radomir Cernoch wrote:
In the Czech list we ended up with the following solution, which tries
to copy the legislation (which is a good starting point, I guess):
1) Every road is by default 'rural' road
I wonder, can we have at some place (wiki?) some definition file that
will specify these per-country default limits in some machine-readable
way?
This could look like this:
country(cz) {
maxspeed=90
(highway=motorway|trunk) {
maxspeed=130
foot=no
bicycle=no
}
On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 01:07:46PM +0100, Radomir Cernoch wrote:
Ok, I see the problem. Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding:
In Poland the speed is restricted in the built up zone or in place?
There is a set of general restrictions for built up zones and there
are no general
Could we not have different polygons for Speed Limited Zones. That may
or may not be the same as the city limits. We could even tag these
zones with maxspeed, So that when applying we don't have to go and
look up what that means. The problem is if the zones overlap, which
one applies?
Well, we can have layering (layer=-5 ... 5) like for any other tags,
so we could have small zone with different limits within one large
zone. For clashes with default rules from place=... and alike, we
can define some rules of precedence (speed limits on individual ways
have highest
MP píše v St 20. 05. 2009 v 14:41 +0200:
Could we not have different polygons for Speed Limited Zones. That may
or may not be the same as the city limits. We could even tag these
zones with maxspeed, So that when applying we don't have to go and
look up what that means. The problem is
On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 02:16:05PM +0200, MP wrote:
I wonder, can we have at some place (wiki?) some definition file that
will specify these per-country default limits in some machine-readable
way?
This could look like this:
country(cz) {
maxspeed=90
(highway=motorway|trunk) {
On Wed, 20 May 2009 12:00:31 +0200, MP singular...@gmail.com wrote:
a) motorway: that's very clear, therea are no or very high limits.
b) city areas with limited speed and some restrictions
c) everything else, mostly out of town.
In Czech republic there are different rules for motorways
Peter Childs wrote:
Speed limits tend to apply to zones not roads anyway, it just happens
that most people only drive on the road. Oh and you will find Speed
I disagree. How would you define the zone in this example?
In my part of Australia, we have a speed limit that applies to every
non-rural street that is not specifically signed as being another
speed - basically case (b) below. The wording used in the law is
built up area. (In practice, the test for a built up area seems
to be does it have
On Wed, 20 May 2009 14:16:05 +0200, MP singular...@gmail.com wrote:
I wonder, can we have at some place (wiki?) some definition file that
will specify these per-country default limits in some machine-readable
way?
I already empoly such a schema in Traveling Salesman:
On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 09:05:45PM +0100, Radomir Cernoch wrote:
By traffic zone you mean a tag zone=XXX on each individual road in
the city? I'm afraid that such system is very prone to forgotten tags.
If you use a polygon around a city, you can also derive the source of
the speed limit.
Radomir Cernoch wrote:
The idea is not to create a node here starts city and a node here
ends the city. The idea is to create a polygon which defines the border
of 50 km/h speed limit. The problem of forgotten end node, which
causes cities to leak all over the planet, does not apply.
Now we
Lennard píše v Čt 21. 05. 2009 v 00:01 +0200:
Don't focus on the highway-in-city bit. Focus on the $random_road_type
with a different maxspeed bridges over (or tunnels under) a zone with
another maxspeed bit. You'll have two zone polygons overlaying each other.
No, 'maxspeed' tag on a road
I find this talk of overlapping polygons a bit boggling. Things seem
far simpler:
roads with an explicit speed tag use that tag. This represents the
situation where the road has a sign and that's been entered.
roads in a city center polygon that don't have a tag inherit from
the
Greg Troxel píše v St 20. 05. 2009 v 18:32 -0400:
I find this talk of overlapping polygons a bit boggling. Things seem
far simpler:
roads with an explicit speed tag use that tag. This represents the
situation where the road has a sign and that's been entered.
roads in a city
Am Wednesday 20 May 2009 schrieb Jacek Konieczny:
That would not work very well in Poland. Town/city/village
administrative border usually differ from the built up zone borders.
right. the same in germany.
that's why we nedd to different zones:
one like zone:traffic=... for speed limits and
Am Wednesday 20 May 2009 schrieb Radomir Cernoch:
Hi,
I would like to ask about the proposed feature 'trafficzone'. If I
understand it right, it proposes to add a tag to _every_ highway and
_every_ road in the city. I'm afraid that this solution is highly
redundant in the amount of
Am Wednesday 20 May 2009 schrieb Peter Childs:
2009/5/20 Jacek Konieczny jaj...@jajcus.net:
On Wed, May 20, 2009 at 11:59:05AM +0100, Radomir Cernoch wrote:
In the Czech list we ended up with the following solution, which tries
to copy the legislation (which is a good starting point, I
Am Wednesday 20 May 2009 schrieb marcus.wolsc...@googlemail.com:
I would like everyone to realise, that we are talking about
3 _different_ city-limits:
a) the large administrative area that belongs to the city
b) the area that has the given place in postal addresses
c) the smaller area where
On Thursday 21 May 2009 00:30:13 Radomir Cernoch wrote:
However it's important to notice that two polygons can never overlap
(unless there is a futuristic city with zone-30 area flying in the air
above a 130 km/h highway).
Now we have an urban area, with a circular road with maxspeed=50, and
Guenther Meyer píše v Čt 21. 05. 2009 v 00:51 +0200:
Am Wednesday 20 May 2009 schrieb Jacek Konieczny:
That would not work very well in Poland. Town/city/village
administrative border usually differ from the built up zone borders.
right. the same in germany.
that's why we nedd to different
...but you would need some kind of gis database/functions to evaluate the
polygon data.
the easy way of reading just keys and values like with most of the other
features in the osm database would not be possible.
for more advanced use of OSM data you need function in which polygons
does
Cartinus píše v Čt 21. 05. 2009 v 01:01 +0200:
It is completely possible for a village ringroad on a bridge (highway=primary
or secondary) to have a maxspeed of 80 km/h due to being outside the build-up
zone, not because there is a sign on it that says 80 km/h. It is also
possible at the
Radomir Cernoch wrote:
Don't focus on the highway-in-city bit. Focus on the $random_road_type
with a different maxspeed bridges over (or tunnels under) a zone with
another maxspeed bit. You'll have two zone polygons overlaying each other.
No, 'maxspeed' tag on a road does not imply a
Lennard píše v Čt 21. 05. 2009 v 01:51 +0200:
Radomir Cernoch wrote:
Don't focus on the highway-in-city bit. Focus on the $random_road_type
with a different maxspeed bridges over (or tunnels under) a zone with
another maxspeed bit. You'll have two zone polygons overlaying each other.
On Thu, 21 May 2009 03:13:06 +0300, Radomir Cernoch
radomir.cern...@gmail.com wrote:
Lennard píše v Čt 21. 05. 2009 v 01:51 +0200:
Radomir Cernoch wrote:
No, 'maxspeed' tag on a road does not imply a polygon with zone!
There can be both in one place. Tag 'maxspeed' on a road is dominant
2009/5/21 Teemu Koskinen teemu.koski...@mbnet.fi:
On Thu, 21 May 2009 03:13:06 +0300, Radomir Cernoch
radomir.cern...@gmail.com wrote:
We are seeking a situation, where two large areas with road networks
overlap each other on a map. All streets in one area must have a
different speed limit
Radomir Cernoch wrote:
We are seeking a situation, where two large areas with road networks
overlap each other on a map. All streets in one area must have a
different speed limit from streets in the second area. In such a
situation, using maxspeed=* tag on any street must be inappropriate.
hi,
currently there is a discussion on the german list about tagging speed limits
respectively different zones. as there are implied also other things than
maxspeed there are proposed three default zones, derived from the signs
standing at every border crossing point:
a) motorway: that's very
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