subject:"\[tw5\] Re\: The last word in Saving\?"

My setup is basically:

1. TiddlyServer is basically an expansion of the NodeJS TiddlyWiki Server.
It's designed like a static file server such as apache, but adds features
for TiddlyWiki, such as saving single-files, and loading data folders in
place, so you can have multiple data folders running on the same server
instance with different paths. Back then the TiddlyWiki server didn't have
any way to upload external files from the browser. If it had, I probably
would never have written TiddlyServer, but I use it all the time now.
2. My main wikis are stored in Dropbox so I just reference their folder
inside the Dropbox folder, and Dropbox automatically saves changes
immediately. I've heard there is some kind of versioning as well in the Pro
version, which I have.
3. Dropbox takes care of this for folder wikis, and TiddlyServer can also
be configured to save a backup of all single-file wikis on every save.
4. Browsers are browsers, some are just more sandboxed than others, which
is part of the reason I made TiddlyServer -- so I didn't have to make sure
all devices could use file:// urls, which was always a pain.
5. Everything is central.
6. I used NoteSelf for this for a while, but eventually I dropped that and
just used Dropbox.

I really like the TiddlyWiki concept and it's a lot easier than installing
MediaWiki on my computer, which is what I had done before. I'm still
working out a few problems with mobile access and the like and also trying
to come up with a more usable layout for regular notes. Something like
Google Keep, maybe. So that's my setup.

On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 8:57 AM Miha Lunar  wrote:

> Hi there!
>
> I've only skimmed previous posts so forgive me if this came up already,
> but I wanted to throw in my 2c.
>
> Most of this is from the context of accessing TW from more than one
> device. Before I can talk about why having TW support PWA features would be
> a good idea, I want to give some background.
>
> The ideal setup for me personally looks like this:
>
> 1. Central server running TW and acting as the source of truth and storage
> of all my tiddlers.
> 2. The tiddlers are versioned for easier maintenance and fewer worries
> around deleting or changing things.
> 3. The tiddlers are regularly backed up to protect against hardware
> failure and malware / accidental deletion.
> 4. I can access TW from any device via a browser or other more appropriate
> means.
> 5. The local TW running on device is connected to the central server so
> that the tiddlers are shared between devices and not siloed.
> 6. The device-local TW can run offline, which means that there needs to be
> local storage that gets synced with the server once the device comes back
> online.
>
> With these I could really use TW anywhere robustly and reliably.
>
> I have a large part of it figured out, but there are still some system and
> UX level gaps. I will describe what my current setup and possible
> implementations can be for each of the points above:
>
> 1. Central server. I have the vanilla TW nodejs running in a Docker
> container on my Synology server and so far it seems great. The vanilla
> server saves tiddlers as files already, so I just mount that save dir as a
> volume, so tiddlers persist outside of Docker on the host.
> 2. Versioning. Based on a blog post I found, my tiddler files are part of
> a git repository. To commit I'm running a modified gitwatch that looks for
> changes to tiddler files and commits automatically after a few seconds.
> History in git is stored as deltas and compressed, so the history might
> take _less_ space than the working copy at the beginning at least.
> Reverting / looking at history is a little inconvenient as it's not
> integrated into TW, but that can be improved with a plugin and a
> server-side service.
> 3. Backup. Since tiddlers are saved as files on the server host and I'm
> running nightly backup on it, this comes by default. Any backup service
> that works on the filesystem level would work here however.
> 4. Device access. This already seems to work pretty well on desktop and
> mobile. The UI is pretty responsive and works well on small screens for
> most things.
> 5. Central tiddlers. This also works pretty well. The vanilla nodejs
> server has a REST API and the TW client that it serves connects to it and
> uses it as the default saver. So all the data is persisted on the server
> and not locally.
> 6. Offline mode. I don't have a solution that I really like for this yet.
> There are some attempts to do this, most notable seems NoteSelf. It syncs
> to a CouchDB database however and for now I prefer having tiddlers stored
> as files, due to the advantages that brings for points 1., 2. and 3.
>
>
> Expanding on 6. Offline mode:
>
> I believe this is the only context where PWAs make sense. If the app is
> already offline (served from the local file system, saving via browser
> plugin, or running offline as a native app), then the concept of a PWA
> doesn't make sense,

Re: [tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-23 Thread TonyM

Illyak

As in my last post I feel we need to approach this a little more gradually. I
thing serial editing could help you.

In relation to your current problems
- I cannot access my wiki on the phone from PC if I am connected to guest wifi
This is the design of guest networks. Device isolation. Either connect but not
as guest or consider direct Wi-Fi

- There is currently no way to see different versions of the tiddler or its
history from TW itself
There are versioning solutions available. Search around noteself is a good
example but there are others. It you design the save actions you can do it
yourself.

- Hard to setup
I think you have chosen a more complex approach

- Bob stops saving when I migrate from one network to another (IP address
change) which means I loose my work quite often
I suggest move the wikis not the server or have a separate server setup that
accesses the same folders

- sharing with friends is not easy
Sharing is really dependant on a multitude of factors including if it includes
the need for input. There are a number of ways to address this but I do think
single file wikis enabled for serial editing or smart documents is a good
start. Such wikis can originate from server implementations.

Thanks for sharing you methods and views.
Tony

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Re: [tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-23 Thread ILYA

Just wanted to say that I agree with Lunar, about the vision.

My current setup:
1. Bob based server (I use Caddy in front to provide https) on android phone 
using termux 
2. Script to watch creation of new directories and create new git repository 
per wiki
3. Script which watches every directory and commit files on each change.
4. Script which creates nightly backup to my NAS server
5. I added phone.local entry into /etc/hosts on my linux PC and MAC.
6. I have save as file button in every wiki so I can export any wiki as single 
html file to share with friends. It is not ideal since it is not easy to get 
their changes.

This setup has a number of problems:
- I cannot access my wiki on the phone from PC if I am connected to guest wifi
- There is currently no way to see different versions of the tiddler or its 
history from TW itself
-  Hard to setup
- Bob stops saving when I migrate from one network to another (IP address 
change) which means I loose my work quite often
- sharing with friends is not easy

In my opinion the requirements are:
- a single file executable which does either
  - opens default browser connected to local server on random available port
  - uses one of the desktop app frameworks
- electron
- flutter
- https or local unix socket for transport
- ability to use remote server
- store changes in browser local storage when server is not awailable
- rely on p2p network to discover the IP address of remote server
- support multiple clients with conflict resolution
- tw based UI to show diff between local and remote version of a tiddler 
(something like https://codepen.io/Sphin/pen/grVvjG)
- compare different historical versions of any tiddler
- ability to look at consistent snapshot of the wiki at a given time ( git 
supports it already )
- display all versions of a tiddler
- automatic sync of changes between browser local storage and server or 
multiple servers
- visual indication when server is not connected

Here is my vision on how to build it on the current art.

1. Replace title with tiddler_id in TW code (to support tiddler versioning)
2. Generate unique values for tiddler_id
3. Use caption instead of title
4. Implement new saver using one of
  - PouchDB (can be taken from NoteSelf)
 - This approach would require a custom server which implements CouchDB 
replication protocol but stores data in git
  - dat protocol
  - kern/filepizza
  - jvilk/BrowserFS
5. Write storage backend using language which can produce statically linked 
binaries or embed nodejs
  - rust
  - golang
6. Update TW to access historical versions of tiddlers
   -  - current version of tiddler
   - / - to point to old version of tiddler

Best regards,
iilyak
  

On 23 November 2019 05:57:37 GMT-08:00, Miha Lunar  wrote:
>Hi there!
>
>I've only skimmed previous posts so forgive me if this came up already,
>but 
>I wanted to throw in my 2c.
>
>Most of this is from the context of accessing TW from more than one
>device. 
>Before I can talk about why having TW support PWA features would be a
>good 
>idea, I want to give some background.
>
>The ideal setup for me personally looks like this:
>
>1. Central server running TW and acting as the source of truth and
>storage 
>of all my tiddlers.
>2. The tiddlers are versioned for easier maintenance and fewer worries 
>around deleting or changing things.
>3. The tiddlers are regularly backed up to protect against hardware
>failure 
>and malware / accidental deletion. 
>4. I can access TW from any device via a browser or other more
>appropriate 
>means.
>5. The local TW running on device is connected to the central server so
>
>that the tiddlers are shared between devices and not siloed.
>6. The device-local TW can run offline, which means that there needs to
>be 
>local storage that gets synced with the server once the device comes
>back 
>online.
>
>With these I could really use TW anywhere robustly and reliably.
>
>I have a large part of it figured out, but there are still some system
>and 
>UX level gaps. I will describe what my current setup and possible 
>implementations can be for each of the points above:
>
>1. Central server. I have the vanilla TW nodejs running in a Docker 
>container on my Synology server and so far it seems great. The vanilla 
>server saves tiddlers as files already, so I just mount that save dir
>as a 
>volume, so tiddlers persist outside of Docker on the host.
>2. Versioning. Based on a blog post I found, my tiddler files are part
>of a 
>git repository. To commit I'm running a modified gitwatch that looks
>for 
>changes to tiddler files and commits automatically after a few seconds.
>
>History in git is stored as deltas and compressed, so the history might
>
>take _less_ space than the working copy at the beginning at least. 
>Reverting / looking at history is a little inconvenient as it's not 
>integrated into TW, but that can be improved with a plugin and a 
>server-side service.
>3. Backup. Since tiddlers are saved as files

[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-23 Thread TonyM

And again all thanks for the continuing input, carefully considered feedback is
very valuable and your efforts are recognised.

It seems to me we are getting close to a first use "ease of use" then making
tiddlywiki your own, basically save back to a tiddlywiki on your own drive.

I hope we can finalise this.

I see some wandering into the broader savings issues such as cross device,
consolidated servers which is ok but in some ways it is the next step. Using
the Bob file saver plugin with bob.exe for example is already introducing
server services However the key initial reason for bob.exe in my view is the
possibility of a simple adoption process.

>From my original topic, I am really keen to refine the first engagement steps
>because I believe this can and must be simplified to not just support new
>users but support designers publishing work to general audiences (starting
>with read only html publishing).

It is my view while we should keep in mind more sophisticated implementations
like server, cross device, multi access and multi user etc. . the next critical
step in my view is controlled editing. The first being serial editing
especially starting with single file wikis but later extending this to
authorised editing.

Serial editing
Single file wikis typically save the whole wiki into a single file so two
similtaniouse edits users or tabs, will overwrite one set of changes with the
other.

To enable serial editing to stop this potential loss we need to introduce a
login/out mechanisium in single file wikis or check-in or checkout. This is to
handle the case where more than one user has update/save rights.

I have researched this deeply. And will not detail it here but the trick is to
reload a wiki with a checkout request in uri or temp storage and save the wiki
with the checkout details only if sucessful, perhaps with another reload to
confirm the checkout. This may be prohibitive on large wikis so a wrapper wiki
to control edit of another wiki may be needed.

This type of mechanisium will also support the use of multi device via cloud
shares, overwrite protection on tiddlyserver, node, tiddlydesktop and more. Bob
already has some protection.

Check in and out in single files would open the smart document possibilities by
permitting edit control and multi user (serial) to take place in documents that
are sent around physically or functionaly to multiple users. A concept I like
is the idea of documents with a document management system built in.

Your thoughts please

Is serial edits the next step as I believe?
Are there other ways to achieve this?

yours sincerely
Tony

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-23 Thread Stefan Pfister

I'm very impressed by the bobsaver-plugin for single wiki files. It could 
be really simple for saving with single files. But it needs manual starting 
of a bobexefile. If this start of the bobserver could be automated as 
background demon or service at system startup this would be really simple 
for the non-technical casual tiddlywiki user. Just install a software as a 
permanent server in the background of your system which starts every time 
when your system boots and double click every single tiddlywiki-file for 
editing and secure saving without any hassle.




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Re: [tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

Just realized that’s worded badly. You definitely have your bases covered.

On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 16:28 Arlen Beiler  wrote:

> I have not followed your work, unfortunately, but it sounds like you and I
> are on the same page then. I was only referring to a way I thought of
> yesterday to make it pretty much bulletproof using a browser plugin, but it
> sounds like I would have done it exactly as you did for a TiddlyWiki
> plug-in if I had made one.
>
> So yeah, great, glad you’re thinking about it, as anyone should.
> TiddlyServer has all those same scenarios to consider as well, so we’re
> pretty much in the same boat.
>
> On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 10:23 Jed Carty  wrote:
>
>> Arlen,
>>
>> Please do not spread misinformation about the security of what I make.
>> The saver server part of Bob does not listen on the local network, it only
>> accepts requests from localhost. At least that minimum security is a
>> requirement for everything I make, that is why I put so many warnings in
>> Bob about allowing access on the local network and why I made the secure
>> server component that has proper https and token-based authentication and
>> access controls.
>>
>> People repeatedly requested to be able to use Bob on the local network
>> which is why it is possible, but the person using has to explicitly enable
>> that and there are warnings about what that means. If someone modifies the
>> saver to listen on the local network  that is not something I can change.
>>
>> --
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>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

I have not followed your work, unfortunately, but it sounds like you and I
are on the same page then. I was only referring to a way I thought of
yesterday to make it pretty much bulletproof using a browser plugin, but it
sounds like I would have done it exactly as you did for a TiddlyWiki
plug-in if I had made one.

So yeah, great, glad you’re thinking about it, as anyone should.
TiddlyServer has all those same scenarios to consider as well, so we’re
pretty much in the same boat.

On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 10:23 Jed Carty  wrote:

> Arlen,
>
> Please do not spread misinformation about the security of what I make. The
> saver server part of Bob does not listen on the local network, it only
> accepts requests from localhost. At least that minimum security is a
> requirement for everything I make, that is why I put so many warnings in
> Bob about allowing access on the local network and why I made the secure
> server component that has proper https and token-based authentication and
> access controls.
>
> People repeatedly requested to be able to use Bob on the local network
> which is why it is possible, but the person using has to explicitly enable
> that and there are warnings about what that means. If someone modifies the
> saver to listen on the local network  that is not something I can change.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "TiddlyWiki" group.
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> 
> .
>

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-23 Thread Jed Carty

Arlen,

Please do not spread misinformation about the security of what I make. The 
saver server part of Bob does not listen on the local network, it only 
accepts requests from localhost. At least that minimum security is a 
requirement for everything I make, that is why I put so many warnings in 
Bob about allowing access on the local network and why I made the secure 
server component that has proper https and token-based authentication and 
access controls.

People repeatedly requested to be able to use Bob on the local network 
which is why it is possible, but the person using has to explicitly enable 
that and there are warnings about what that means. If someone modifies the 
saver to listen on the local network  that is not something I can change.

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Re: [tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-23 Thread TiddlyTweeter

Ciao Arlen

I think part of the issue is not the tools you and Jed developed. It may be 
the "wrapper", the "marketing" as well? 
So much here we are concerned with fundamentals. But the GG group goes 
nowhere other than the readers.
I think that "promotion" for TW matters & is seriously under-achieving. 

The result is that neither you nor Jed get volume feedback (as fr as I can 
see). 

At a certain point development & feedback interact importantly. 

Do you feel you have enough feedback?

I agree with your "money" points. IMO a solution COULD be charged for, 
especially on MOBILE, where it is established practice. 

It Is the issue of getting volume (mini charge at volume) v. donations 
(better gifts, low volume).

Best wishes
TT

On Saturday, 23 November 2019 14:50:37 UTC+1, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>
> I think the bob saver can be expanded to use a browser plugin. This can 
> address some of the security concerns with having a freely available saver 
> listening on the network. And it’s also simply installable as you say. I 
> must have heard enough complaints about corporate networks that I thought 
> those environments have all the trouble, but maybe I was wrong. I guess 
> putting a simple working solution in place first and then improving it 
> would get us a long way. 
>
> On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 08:16 TiddlyTweeter  > wrote:
>
>> Ciao Stefan
>>
>> *Great post. To the point.*
>>
>> Fully agree that the POINT in all this should be to enable users to do TW 
>> with the same level of simplicity they have for other apps. 
>> Basically, nowadays standard, it comes down to one approach for mobiles 
>> and one approach for desktops.
>>
>> IMO we have, actually, MINOR, issues between now and full cross-platform 
>> unity of approach. *So close. Yet so far off.*
>>
>> One thing, largely OVERLOOKED in this thread, with its (necessary) focus 
>> on mechanisms, is that end-users are primarily interested in CONTENT. 
>> They don't care HOW they get it, just so long it's simple enough. I wish 
>> "Desire for Content Delivery" would matter more here as it is a vital piece 
>> of understanding the issue ...
>>
>> I really believe that normal end user working practice is central to this 
>> discussion. The issue is, I think, just this ...
>>
>>- ... a person who wants to get something done, using conventional, 
>>recognisable, common, methods.
>>
>> My 2 cents.
>>
>> Best wishes
>> TT
>>
>>
>> *(Footnote: Unfortunately TiddlyDesktop is not properly portable yet [it 
>> currently uses absolute addressing to wikis] so its not yet ideal.)*
>> Stefan Pfister wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> # The Goal and big question:
>>>
>>> * a simple way for naive and casual users to save their tiddlywiki 
>>> (again and again)*
>>>
>>>
>>> I read this thread with much interest. In my opinium there is still one 
>>> big aspect, which should be mainly considered. As a casual and 
>>> non-technical user of tiddlywiki and as a teacher, who wants to show the 
>>> students at school something with tiddlywiki I want to say:
>>>
>>> The easiest way to use a tiddlywiki is to double-click on a file with a 
>>> tiddlywiki in it. I doesn't matter which ending this file has. If it is 
>>> "html", "tw" or something different. If the user can simply click on it and 
>>> it opens in a way which makes it possible to use it without struggling with 
>>> the saving mechanism.
>>>
>>> This works with the so called hta-hack under Windows really well. Simply 
>>> changing the ending of the tw-file to "hta" and you have a simple working 
>>> one-file-tiddlywiki with saving mechanism. This is really usable. For me as 
>>> the user the inner mechanism is not my point of interest. I can simply us 
>>> this in class but only with windows devices. Something more universal and 
>>> platform independent would be great.
>>>
>>> A single TW-file with a working saving mechanism in it which opens per 
>>> doubleclick in a browser or even in a separate portable program like 
>>> TW-desktop (something which organises the saving) would be a great progress 
>>> in usability for the non technical and casual user of tiddlywiki. This is 
>>> the normal behavior of programs and files. The most simple users know this. 
>>> This is an easy workflow. I use this kind of workflow every day. I simply 
>>> don't want to install or configure something special in order to be able to 
>>> save my work. But it is in most cases not much of a problem to install a 
>>> app or a program in order to use it. I know there are restricted 
>>> environments but for the normal user: The normal way to use a programm is 
>>> to install something a *.exe or under linux a *.deb and simply use it.
>>>
>>> Just my two cents.
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Stefan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
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>> To

Re: [tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-23 Thread Miha Lunar

Hi there!

I've only skimmed previous posts so forgive me if this came up already, but 
I wanted to throw in my 2c.

Most of this is from the context of accessing TW from more than one device. 
Before I can talk about why having TW support PWA features would be a good 
idea, I want to give some background.

The ideal setup for me personally looks like this:

1. Central server running TW and acting as the source of truth and storage 
of all my tiddlers.
2. The tiddlers are versioned for easier maintenance and fewer worries 
around deleting or changing things.
3. The tiddlers are regularly backed up to protect against hardware failure 
and malware / accidental deletion. 
4. I can access TW from any device via a browser or other more appropriate 
means.
5. The local TW running on device is connected to the central server so 
that the tiddlers are shared between devices and not siloed.
6. The device-local TW can run offline, which means that there needs to be 
local storage that gets synced with the server once the device comes back 
online.

With these I could really use TW anywhere robustly and reliably.

I have a large part of it figured out, but there are still some system and 
UX level gaps. I will describe what my current setup and possible 
implementations can be for each of the points above:

1. Central server. I have the vanilla TW nodejs running in a Docker 
container on my Synology server and so far it seems great. The vanilla 
server saves tiddlers as files already, so I just mount that save dir as a 
volume, so tiddlers persist outside of Docker on the host.
2. Versioning. Based on a blog post I found, my tiddler files are part of a 
git repository. To commit I'm running a modified gitwatch that looks for 
changes to tiddler files and commits automatically after a few seconds. 
History in git is stored as deltas and compressed, so the history might 
take _less_ space than the working copy at the beginning at least. 
Reverting / looking at history is a little inconvenient as it's not 
integrated into TW, but that can be improved with a plugin and a 
server-side service.
3. Backup. Since tiddlers are saved as files on the server host and I'm 
running nightly backup on it, this comes by default. Any backup service 
that works on the filesystem level would work here however.
4. Device access. This already seems to work pretty well on desktop and 
mobile. The UI is pretty responsive and works well on small screens for 
most things.
5. Central tiddlers. This also works pretty well. The vanilla nodejs server 
has a REST API and the TW client that it serves connects to it and uses it 
as the default saver. So all the data is persisted on the server and not 
locally.
6. Offline mode. I don't have a solution that I really like for this yet. 
There are some attempts to do this, most notable seems NoteSelf. It syncs 
to a CouchDB database however and for now I prefer having tiddlers stored 
as files, due to the advantages that brings for points 1., 2. and 3.


Expanding on 6. Offline mode:

I believe this is the only context where PWAs make sense. If the app is 
already offline (served from the local file system, saving via browser 
plugin, or running offline as a native app), then the concept of a PWA 
doesn't make sense, since afaik the core problem they solve is offline mode.

In the context of an online TW (like described in the setup above), it 
would make sense for it to support PWA features (localStorage, offline 
service worker responsible for sync, etc.). This way you could open up a 
website hosting your TW at any point, even when you're offline and it would 
store all the changes in the browser cache, then sync them up when you 
connect back to the central server.

This would solve 6. without having to create a separate application for 
each OS just to handle the offline, caching and syncing problem. In Chrome 
you can even install these kinds of websites as system apps, so they open 
up in their own window and act like native apps to a certain degree, on 
both desktop and Android. For example, the Home Assistant client does this 
and it works great.

I believe a proper syncing / diffing system is the only big roadblock that 
currently stands in the way of having true offline mode and sync. I know 
there is some effort being put into the diffing part (there's a macro for 
diffing tiddlers), though I'm not sure how far TW currently goes wrt sync 
with the nodejs REST API.

Obviously expecting everyone to run the same setup as I am is unreasonable, 
especially if you just want to try it out or if you don't want to manage 
servers and so forth. If you use more than 1 device regularly though, I 
would think you'd want some form of syncing between them and that's why 6. 
would be beneficial, even if you connect to the cloud, where someone else 
runs a variation on 1., 2., 3. for you.

I'd be interested if anyone has a better solution for any of the parts of 
this system or a better one entirely.

Best,

Re: [tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

I think the bob saver can be expanded to use a browser plugin. This can
address some of the security concerns with having a freely available saver
listening on the network. And it’s also simply installable as you say. I
must have heard enough complaints about corporate networks that I thought
those environments have all the trouble, but maybe I was wrong. I guess
putting a simple working solution in place first and then improving it
would get us a long way.

On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 08:16 TiddlyTweeter  wrote:

> Ciao Stefan
>
> *Great post. To the point.*
>
> Fully agree that the POINT in all this should be to enable users to do TW
> with the same level of simplicity they have for other apps.
> Basically, nowadays standard, it comes down to one approach for mobiles
> and one approach for desktops.
>
> IMO we have, actually, MINOR, issues between now and full cross-platform
> unity of approach. *So close. Yet so far off.*
>
> One thing, largely OVERLOOKED in this thread, with its (necessary) focus
> on mechanisms, is that end-users are primarily interested in CONTENT.
> They don't care HOW they get it, just so long it's simple enough. I wish
> "Desire for Content Delivery" would matter more here as it is a vital piece
> of understanding the issue ...
>
> I really believe that normal end user working practice is central to this
> discussion. The issue is, I think, just this ...
>
>- ... a person who wants to get something done, using conventional,
>recognisable, common, methods.
>
> My 2 cents.
>
> Best wishes
> TT
>
>
> *(Footnote: Unfortunately TiddlyDesktop is not properly portable yet [it
> currently uses absolute addressing to wikis] so its not yet ideal.)*
> Stefan Pfister wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> # The Goal and big question:
>>
>> * a simple way for naive and casual users to save their tiddlywiki (again
>> and again)*
>>
>>
>> I read this thread with much interest. In my opinium there is still one
>> big aspect, which should be mainly considered. As a casual and
>> non-technical user of tiddlywiki and as a teacher, who wants to show the
>> students at school something with tiddlywiki I want to say:
>>
>> The easiest way to use a tiddlywiki is to double-click on a file with a
>> tiddlywiki in it. I doesn't matter which ending this file has. If it is
>> "html", "tw" or something different. If the user can simply click on it and
>> it opens in a way which makes it possible to use it without struggling with
>> the saving mechanism.
>>
>> This works with the so called hta-hack under Windows really well. Simply
>> changing the ending of the tw-file to "hta" and you have a simple working
>> one-file-tiddlywiki with saving mechanism. This is really usable. For me as
>> the user the inner mechanism is not my point of interest. I can simply us
>> this in class but only with windows devices. Something more universal and
>> platform independent would be great.
>>
>> A single TW-file with a working saving mechanism in it which opens per
>> doubleclick in a browser or even in a separate portable program like
>> TW-desktop (something which organises the saving) would be a great progress
>> in usability for the non technical and casual user of tiddlywiki. This is
>> the normal behavior of programs and files. The most simple users know this.
>> This is an easy workflow. I use this kind of workflow every day. I simply
>> don't want to install or configure something special in order to be able to
>> save my work. But it is in most cases not much of a problem to install a
>> app or a program in order to use it. I know there are restricted
>> environments but for the normal user: The normal way to use a programm is
>> to install something a *.exe or under linux a *.deb and simply use it.
>>
>> Just my two cents.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Stefan
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-23 Thread TiddlyTweeter

Ciao Stefan

*Great post. To the point.*

Fully agree that the POINT in all this should be to enable users to do TW 
with the same level of simplicity they have for other apps. 
Basically, nowadays standard, it comes down to one approach for mobiles and 
one approach for desktops.

IMO we have, actually, MINOR, issues between now and full cross-platform 
unity of approach. *So close. Yet so far off.*

One thing, largely OVERLOOKED in this thread, with its (necessary) focus on 
mechanisms, is that end-users are primarily interested in CONTENT. 
They don't care HOW they get it, just so long it's simple enough. I wish 
"Desire for Content Delivery" would matter more here as it is a vital piece 
of understanding the issue ...

I really believe that normal end user working practice is central to this 
discussion. The issue is, I think, just this ...

   - ... a person who wants to get something done, using conventional, 
   recognisable, common, methods.

My 2 cents.

Best wishes
TT


*(Footnote: Unfortunately TiddlyDesktop is not properly portable yet [it 
currently uses absolute addressing to wikis] so its not yet ideal.)*
Stefan Pfister wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> # The Goal and big question:
>
> * a simple way for naive and casual users to save their tiddlywiki (again 
> and again)*
>
>
> I read this thread with much interest. In my opinium there is still one 
> big aspect, which should be mainly considered. As a casual and 
> non-technical user of tiddlywiki and as a teacher, who wants to show the 
> students at school something with tiddlywiki I want to say:
>
> The easiest way to use a tiddlywiki is to double-click on a file with a 
> tiddlywiki in it. I doesn't matter which ending this file has. If it is 
> "html", "tw" or something different. If the user can simply click on it and 
> it opens in a way which makes it possible to use it without struggling with 
> the saving mechanism.
>
> This works with the so called hta-hack under Windows really well. Simply 
> changing the ending of the tw-file to "hta" and you have a simple working 
> one-file-tiddlywiki with saving mechanism. This is really usable. For me as 
> the user the inner mechanism is not my point of interest. I can simply us 
> this in class but only with windows devices. Something more universal and 
> platform independent would be great.
>
> A single TW-file with a working saving mechanism in it which opens per 
> doubleclick in a browser or even in a separate portable program like 
> TW-desktop (something which organises the saving) would be a great progress 
> in usability for the non technical and casual user of tiddlywiki. This is 
> the normal behavior of programs and files. The most simple users know this. 
> This is an easy workflow. I use this kind of workflow every day. I simply 
> don't want to install or configure something special in order to be able to 
> save my work. But it is in most cases not much of a problem to install a 
> app or a program in order to use it. I know there are restricted 
> environments but for the normal user: The normal way to use a programm is 
> to install something a *.exe or under linux a *.deb and simply use it.
>
> Just my two cents.
>
> Regards,
>
> Stefan
>
>
>
>

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-23 Thread Stefan Pfister

Hi,

# The Goal and big question:

* a simple way for naive and casual users to save their tiddlywiki (again
and again)*

I read this thread with much interest. In my opinium there is still one big
aspect, which should be mainly considered. As a casual and non-technical
user of tiddlywiki and as a teacher, who wants to show the students at
school something with tiddlywiki I want to say:

The easiest way to use a tiddlywiki is to double-click on a file with a
tiddlywiki in it. I doesn't matter which ending this file has. If it is
"html", "tw" or something different. If the user can simply click on it and
it opens in a way which makes it possible to use it without struggling with
the saving mechanism.

This works with the so called hta-hack under Windows really well. Simply
changing the ending of the tw-file to "hta" and you have a simple working
one-file-tiddlywiki with saving mechanism. This is really usable. For me as
the user the inner mechanism is not my point of interest. I can simply us
this in class but only with windows devices. Something more universal and
platform independent would be great.

A single TW-file with a working saving mechanism in it which opens per
doubleclick in a browser or even in a separate portable program like
TW-desktop (something which organises the saving) would be a great progress
in usability for the non technical and casual user of tiddlywiki. This is
the normal behavior of programs and files. The most simple users know this.
This is an easy workflow. I use this kind of workflow every day. I simply
don't want to install or configure something special in order to be able to
save my work. But it is in most cases not much of a problem to install a
app or a program in order to use it. I know there are restricted
environments but for the normal user: The normal way to use a programm is
to install something a *.exe or under linux a *.deb and simply use it.

Just my two cents.

Regards,

Stefan

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-23 Thread Jed Carty

Tony,

A very large part of my confusion about what you are saying here is that
local storage and localStorage can be very different things. I can not tell
when you mean saving to the local file system vs saving using localStorage
in the browser cache.
Another part is that the PWA standards that google is presenting are
descriptive, a progressive web app is simply a classification for a website
that uses the technologies present in the way described by google. Being a
progressive web app doesn't give a website any privileges or access that
aren't available to sites that don't follow the proposed standard. Nothing
about the technologies listed on the page you linked are specific to
websites that would be classified as a progressive web app.
I have used most of the storage technologies referenced in the linked page
and none of them require anything other than html and javascript loaded in
a browser like any other webpage.

All of the technologies are being developed completely independently of
googles standards for what makes a PWA, they are not in any way dependent
on matching those standards for usage.

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-22 Thread TonyM

All,

An example of a new User Tiddlywiki adoption work flow is raised by me 
here https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/yebQtlKZMWg/t9QfADgCBwAJ
This example would make use of either Bob.exe and BobSaver Plugin or 
Timimi. 

Regards
Tony

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-22 Thread TonyM

Jed,

Thanks for clarifying this for all.

My Suggestion on a PWA is only because my own reading and someone else's
post have talked about getting *reliable local storage* (if not still
within the browser) for PWA's.

The need for this continues to be something a lot of designers and
developers want and there are suggestions that such reliable storage
mechanisms may be made available soon (see below).

As you say if reliable browser local storage becomes available across
browsers we may be able to use this directly from Tiddlywiki, however it
may only become available to PWA's or versions there of which include a
config file containing resource needs. Other community members have
suggested other limitations to Tiddlywiki's mechanisms that would prevent
it from becoming a PWA itself. Thus the speculative idea of having an
independant PWA saver, if reliable local storage becomes available, and
only if reliable local storage becomes available.

For example at this link we can see Safari and Edge do not have a cache
eviction process thus browser local storage may be more reliable
BrowserEviction Policy
Chrome LRU once Chrome runs out of space
Firefox LRU if the whole disk gets full
Safari No eviction
Edge No eviction

The above was found here
https://developers.google.com/web/fundamentals/instant-and-offline/web-storage/offline-for-pwa
and includes a section;
*Current and future offline storage work* *If offline storage interests
you, the efforts below are worth keeping an eye on*

Of course a PWA could be storing the data on a cloud service as well.

I expect there may be limitations to one tab communicating with
another tabs PWA's.

Regards
tony

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-22 Thread Jed Carty

These keeps coming up so I am going to say this again.

A progressive web app can't save to the locally in the sense used in this
thread. it saves to the browser cache, it has no more access to the local
file system than we already have. if it did then we would use that
mechanism to save and none of this would be a problem.
Delivering tiddlywiki as a progressive web app is going backwards as far as
saving is concerned, tiddlywiki is set up so that you can always use the
download saver, PWAs save to the localStorange which is just dressing up
the browser cache.

LocalStorage is NOT the local file system, it is the browser cache. It
doesn't solve anything about our saving problems. Progressive web apps
don't have any privileges than tiddlywiki doesn't already have.

Tiddlywiki can either 1 - put the save in the core like all of the other
savers it already has in the core or 2 - put the saver in a plugin and use
the plugin library mechanism to distribute it.
The server component CAN NOT be delivered as a progressive web app because
if it could you could directly put things on the file system from a browser
and we would just use that mechanism to save and none of this would be a
problem.

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-21 Thread TonyM

Jed

I think that is a good idea. Perhaps we can find an existing one that 
available. I am keen to see if we can identify a simple work flow from in 
browser discovery to making it your own and being able to save and reopen in a 
trusted location. I love the multiple wiki bob, TD and TS but there is no harm 
of providing a single wiki at a time solution. Once someone uses a for purpose 
tiddlywiki a large percentage will start to use it as a platform, look at its 
possibilities and the the multi wiki solutions. 

I am just keen to make the initial use and private data very simple.

As Mario says a big part is presenting information to the user that guides them.

I think the more generic the solution the better and a side effect may be a 
more useful tool. I wonder if such a saver/server could be delivered as a 
progressive web app then tiddlywiki leverage that, in effect allowing install 
of the saver on desktops and mobiles without having to turn tw into PWA but 
giving it the local saving features of one.

REGARDS
TONY

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-21 Thread Jed Carty

Creating and maintaining a set of browser plugins is far more complex than 
required considering all the browsers that need to be supported. Adding the 
BobSaver to the core and using either Bob or something else that can use 
the same saver. It doesn't have to be Bob, or even written in node, 
anything that can accept http POSTs can work. Then it works in any browser 
and doesn't require maintaining any browser plugins or anything like that.

Creating a simple iOS application that handles saving using the same saver 
wouldn't be too difficult. I haven't done any significant android 
development but I imagine it would be simple as well, it is just a server 
that accepts POSTs and saves the received file. In both cases I think that 
handling file permissions is the hardest part.

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-21 Thread PMario

On Thursday, November 21, 2019 at 2:23:27 AM UTC+1, TonyM wrote:

The key value of the use of a .tw file is simply to differentiate it from 
> other html files, which will only ever open in the default browser unless 
> you use open with which is a clumsy requirements. Tiddlywiki could open in 
> a default browser without the saver available and work be done before it is 
> discovered it will not save. 
>

TiddlyWiki will save! ... There will always be the "default saver". 

The only disadvantage is: *inconvenience*. Browsers add "(1), (2) .. (x)" 
postfixes to the file names. BUT TW will save as a .html file. 

It should be possible to let the default saver open an info tiddler, that 
explains, what's going on and present a "Save As" button, instead of the OS 
specific default "Save File" or "Open With" dialogue. 

So may be we can make the default saver workflow "more convenient". So the 
newbee user can understand what's going on. 

-mario

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Re: [tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

Arlen

On mobile at least you can pin it for yourself, see top right in thread.  an 
admin needs to do it for all.

Tony

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

Funding,

Arlen, Jed in the past and others raise the thorny issue of funding. I will 
too. I would be dropping money on Arlen and Jed , bimlas and others if I 
were not (mostly) unemployed. I too have a number of ideas and changes, I 
think most people would like be compensated where possible, I want to 
contribute a lot more as well but find it hard to justify my effort when if 
I do not earn money soon my partner may kick me out (only half in Jest). I 
recently thought of running some small campaigns to seek funding for my own 
work, but *I would urge those already seeking funding to persist and 
promote.*

I think we are all very careful and polite on this when often people are 
generous and understand that time and skills are money, Perhaps we can 
start a seperate thread on this?

Regards
Tony

On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 2:03:52 PM UTC+11, TonyM wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> This post is seeking input from the community to overcome what I perceive 
> to be the last big issue in saving. It may seem only suited to experienced 
> users but perhaps you know something we don't, so please be brave and 
> contribute.
>
> I may have an opportunity in coming months to work with a team of 
> videographers in their off season. They do "things for good" and my thought 
> was to build a nice application (on tiddlywiki) for people to explore how 
> they or their business can participate in reaching the *Sustainable 
> Development Goals (SDG's)*. This will promote the SDG's, their work, my 
> work and the power of TiddlyWiki, but there seems to me, to still be an 
> elephant in the room - saving.
>
> *How do we enable saving tiddlywikis for naive and casual users?*
>
> To be sure, I am across most saving mechanisms, and some are very good and 
> quite easy to set up a very sophisticated solution, I use Timimi, 
> TiddlyServer, TiddlyDesktop and Bob.exe 
>
> Imagine someone visits my SDG app online
>
>- They could use it and apply changes but not save it
>- With local storage and save some changes in the browser but they may 
>be lost later
>- They Can download it easily enough, even with their in browser or 
>local storage content
>- But if they wish to open it again, make changes and save they then 
>need to consider this https://tiddlywiki.com/#GettingStarted - scary 
>for many.
>
> Basically I think tiddlywiki is brilliant and we have lots of wonderful 
> options for saving, once someone gets involved with the ecosystem, I 
> believe any nodeJS solution is hard to secure on the internet and like 
> NoteSelf we have to manage the server, but it seems we are so close to a 
> better single file solution (My Opinion).
>  
> I know some saving mechanisms come close to helping *naive and casual 
> users* however their remains a need to take unfamiliar steps, that can be 
> quite fragile, especially to those not overly computer literate. Saving 
> under downloads folders, running batches and installing local apps are all 
> impediments to *naive and casual users* in my view, as this becomes 
> Operating system dependant, demands more trust, will not work in many 
> locked down cases and more.
>
> I am starting this thread to try and inspire some serious creativity to 
> overcome this barrier. Here are some ideas floating in my head but I am 
> keen to hear from you.
>
>- Any idea is a good idea
>- A diversity of ideas in needed
>- We may need to "think outside the box"
>- Can an existing solution be better engineered to meet these goals?
>
> Some of my own musings
>
>- One approach may be to never download the whole wiki, but store the 
>changes in a separate file that is automatically loaded over the in 
> browser 
>one, and saved only by saving changes back to the nominated file.
>- Building all the necessary content to install Timimi or another 
>saver from the single wiki (No other document or external info required) 
>Not yet chrome and IE
>- A Form of bob.exe/TiddlyDesktop that can be loaded with a custom 
>tiddlywiki that shows only that wiki unless some settings are changed in 
>the control panel. Ie a single local installable.
>- A Way of packaging a TiddlyWiki with Node.exe and hosting on a port 
>that will not clash with other server hosts, perhaps an packaged extension 
>of TiddlySaver.
>- I was inspired to open this up to the community after playing with 
> bookmarklets 
>and Jeremy's solution 
>
> 
>  because 
>javascript can be loaded into bookmarks I wonder if it could be used to 
>save changes to local tiddlywiki files and reimport on click. 
>- I also looked at solutions such as 
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMacros which suggests there may be 
>other ways to achieve the desired results.
>- IPFS, BeakerBrowser, CouchDB or saving to a MYSQL or even a 
>

Re: [tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

Can we somehow pin this?

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019, 20:26 TonyM  wrote:

> The *First Save* idea
>
> I am wondering if installing the local storage and rather than provide a
> download you tiddlywiki we just provide a save your changes button, a
> backup of changes only that can be restored if the browser looses this
> storage. I imaging this could smooth the simple drive by but want to save
> there changes crowd.
>
> Regards
> Tony
>
>
> On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 2:03:52 PM UTC+11, TonyM wrote:
>>
>> Folks,
>>
>> This post is seeking input from the community to overcome what I perceive
>> to be the last big issue in saving. It may seem only suited to experienced
>> users but perhaps you know something we don't, so please be brave and
>> contribute.
>>
>> I may have an opportunity in coming months to work with a team of
>> videographers in their off season. They do "things for good" and my thought
>> was to build a nice application (on tiddlywiki) for people to explore how
>> they or their business can participate in reaching the *Sustainable
>> Development Goals (SDG's)*. This will promote the SDG's, their work, my
>> work and the power of TiddlyWiki, but there seems to me, to still be an
>> elephant in the room - saving.
>>
>> *How do we enable saving tiddlywikis for naive and casual users?*
>>
>> To be sure, I am across most saving mechanisms, and some are very good
>> and quite easy to set up a very sophisticated solution, I use Timimi,
>> TiddlyServer, TiddlyDesktop and Bob.exe
>>
>> Imagine someone visits my SDG app online
>>
>>- They could use it and apply changes but not save it
>>- With local storage and save some changes in the browser but they
>>may be lost later
>>- They Can download it easily enough, even with their in browser or
>>local storage content
>>- But if they wish to open it again, make changes and save they then
>>need to consider this https://tiddlywiki.com/#GettingStarted - scary
>>for many.
>>
>> Basically I think tiddlywiki is brilliant and we have lots of wonderful
>> options for saving, once someone gets involved with the ecosystem, I
>> believe any nodeJS solution is hard to secure on the internet and like
>> NoteSelf we have to manage the server, but it seems we are so close to a
>> better single file solution (My Opinion).
>>
>> I know some saving mechanisms come close to helping *naive and casual
>> users* however their remains a need to take unfamiliar steps, that can
>> be quite fragile, especially to those not overly computer literate. Saving
>> under downloads folders, running batches and installing local apps are all
>> impediments to *naive and casual users* in my view, as this becomes
>> Operating system dependant, demands more trust, will not work in many
>> locked down cases and more.
>>
>> I am starting this thread to try and inspire some serious creativity to
>> overcome this barrier. Here are some ideas floating in my head but I am
>> keen to hear from you.
>>
>>- Any idea is a good idea
>>- A diversity of ideas in needed
>>- We may need to "think outside the box"
>>- Can an existing solution be better engineered to meet these goals?
>>
>> Some of my own musings
>>
>>- One approach may be to never download the whole wiki, but store the
>>changes in a separate file that is automatically loaded over the in 
>> browser
>>one, and saved only by saving changes back to the nominated file.
>>- Building all the necessary content to install Timimi or another
>>saver from the single wiki (No other document or external info required)
>>Not yet chrome and IE
>>- A Form of bob.exe/TiddlyDesktop that can be loaded with a custom
>>tiddlywiki that shows only that wiki unless some settings are changed in
>>the control panel. Ie a single local installable.
>>- A Way of packaging a TiddlyWiki with Node.exe and hosting on a port
>>that will not clash with other server hosts, perhaps an packaged extension
>>of TiddlySaver.
>>- I was inspired to open this up to the community after playing with 
>> bookmarklets
>>and Jeremy's solution
>>
>> 
>>  because
>>javascript can be loaded into bookmarks I wonder if it could be used to
>>save changes to local tiddlywiki files and reimport on click.
>>- I also looked at solutions such as
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMacros which suggests there may be
>>other ways to achieve the desired results.
>>- IPFS, BeakerBrowser, CouchDB or saving to a MYSQL or even a
>>wordpress database?
>>
>>
>> All I want for Christmas is a simple way for *naive and casual users *to
>> save their tiddlywiki (again and again)
>>
>> Yours Sincerely
>> Tony
>>
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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

The *First Save* idea

I am wondering if installing the local storage and rather than provide a 
download you tiddlywiki we just provide a save your changes button, a 
backup of changes only that can be restored if the browser looses this 
storage. I imaging this could smooth the simple drive by but want to save 
there changes crowd.

Regards
Tony


On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 2:03:52 PM UTC+11, TonyM wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> This post is seeking input from the community to overcome what I perceive 
> to be the last big issue in saving. It may seem only suited to experienced 
> users but perhaps you know something we don't, so please be brave and 
> contribute.
>
> I may have an opportunity in coming months to work with a team of 
> videographers in their off season. They do "things for good" and my thought 
> was to build a nice application (on tiddlywiki) for people to explore how 
> they or their business can participate in reaching the *Sustainable 
> Development Goals (SDG's)*. This will promote the SDG's, their work, my 
> work and the power of TiddlyWiki, but there seems to me, to still be an 
> elephant in the room - saving.
>
> *How do we enable saving tiddlywikis for naive and casual users?*
>
> To be sure, I am across most saving mechanisms, and some are very good and 
> quite easy to set up a very sophisticated solution, I use Timimi, 
> TiddlyServer, TiddlyDesktop and Bob.exe 
>
> Imagine someone visits my SDG app online
>
>- They could use it and apply changes but not save it
>- With local storage and save some changes in the browser but they may 
>be lost later
>- They Can download it easily enough, even with their in browser or 
>local storage content
>- But if they wish to open it again, make changes and save they then 
>need to consider this https://tiddlywiki.com/#GettingStarted - scary 
>for many.
>
> Basically I think tiddlywiki is brilliant and we have lots of wonderful 
> options for saving, once someone gets involved with the ecosystem, I 
> believe any nodeJS solution is hard to secure on the internet and like 
> NoteSelf we have to manage the server, but it seems we are so close to a 
> better single file solution (My Opinion).
>  
> I know some saving mechanisms come close to helping *naive and casual 
> users* however their remains a need to take unfamiliar steps, that can be 
> quite fragile, especially to those not overly computer literate. Saving 
> under downloads folders, running batches and installing local apps are all 
> impediments to *naive and casual users* in my view, as this becomes 
> Operating system dependant, demands more trust, will not work in many 
> locked down cases and more.
>
> I am starting this thread to try and inspire some serious creativity to 
> overcome this barrier. Here are some ideas floating in my head but I am 
> keen to hear from you.
>
>- Any idea is a good idea
>- A diversity of ideas in needed
>- We may need to "think outside the box"
>- Can an existing solution be better engineered to meet these goals?
>
> Some of my own musings
>
>- One approach may be to never download the whole wiki, but store the 
>changes in a separate file that is automatically loaded over the in 
> browser 
>one, and saved only by saving changes back to the nominated file.
>- Building all the necessary content to install Timimi or another 
>saver from the single wiki (No other document or external info required) 
>Not yet chrome and IE
>- A Form of bob.exe/TiddlyDesktop that can be loaded with a custom 
>tiddlywiki that shows only that wiki unless some settings are changed in 
>the control panel. Ie a single local installable.
>- A Way of packaging a TiddlyWiki with Node.exe and hosting on a port 
>that will not clash with other server hosts, perhaps an packaged extension 
>of TiddlySaver.
>- I was inspired to open this up to the community after playing with 
> bookmarklets 
>and Jeremy's solution 
>
> 
>  because 
>javascript can be loaded into bookmarks I wonder if it could be used to 
>save changes to local tiddlywiki files and reimport on click. 
>- I also looked at solutions such as 
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMacros which suggests there may be 
>other ways to achieve the desired results.
>- IPFS, BeakerBrowser, CouchDB or saving to a MYSQL or even a 
>wordpress database?
>
>
> All I want for Christmas is a simple way for *naive and casual users *to 
> save their tiddlywiki (again and again)
>
> Yours Sincerely
> Tony
>

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

Thanks all for your continued feedback,

If I may make a few comments in regards to some replies specifically. It is
not that I proclaim to be an expert of the person that decides which idea
is a good one, it is just an attempt to try and coral your wonderful
feedback towards the objective of the Original Thread OT.

I will do a second post on funding.

To all, Thank you, you have all contributed much.

Okido/Mario,

The key value of the use of a .tw file is simply to differentiate it from
other html files, which will only ever open in the default browser unless
you use open with which is a clumsy requirements. Tiddlywiki could open in
a default browser without the saver available and work be done before it is
discovered it will not save. Keep in mind the .tw file remains a html file
as defined in its content and most browser open it successfully. This is
not unlike the already possible saving as a .hta (IE Windows only?) and
.aspx such as on sharepoint servers. This is in my view important when
treating a tiddlywiki as a document by a given name, less so if naming it
index.html on a host.

TT,

You make a point between Mobile and Desktop, there are good reasons for
these to be treated differently, installing an app is common place. One
advantage of Tiddliod including lite is you paste in a internet hosted
tiddlywiki and it is "installed" into tiddloid. It would be nice if we
could provide the following workflow for existing apps;

- On an internet published wiki, To place this Tiddlywiki on your mobile
install "appname" then share this URL with "appname" and it will download
your own copy to you phone.
- Jed has suggested Bob.exe can do something similar on desktop, and has
extended it for single file wikis - I will review at my earliest.
- TT you have a lot of good ideas there and I will consider them in more
detail, I think you hint at something I would like and that is an andriod
or iphone app that is a shell in which you can fit a single tiddlywiki and
distribute as an app in the app stores. I would pay for this because it may
have an immediate return on sales. It may give those seeking some returns
an opportunity as well.
TT the idea of TW as content is in effect why I want to see the content
openly available to "drive by" use on the internet. I want many content
instances to be available to make your own so we can all start publishing
more widely.
- TT as you say Maybe, "in-browser saving" linked with OS mediated
safety backup could work for your aim? I think this may be the first
step yes, I will outline my thoughts in this below in *First save post*

Bimlas,

- I think if TiddlyDesktop was installed and we had a way to share a url
within the browser which it downloaded a given tiddlywiki "edition". It
already solves many of the issues including browser and OS, we just to make
it less than a hop, skip and jump. Imagine an option to send to
TiddlyDesktop.
- I agree cloud solutions may be the most common and popular approach at
some point in the future as tiddlyspot already is. I would like to see
gitub publishing of TiddlyWiki's similar to the core so people can raise
issues and changes to specific editions. But to me this is beyond this
initial experience problem.
- Your suggestion once again out of the box such as flutter is great,
but I suppose only a few here can consider the possibility of this. I too
think trying to adopt PWA Progressive web App standards would be great,
they in effect address the issues in the OT however we may not meet some of
the load time criteria initially, but do we have to.

Jed/Bob

- I think JED is right in noting we have missed how we can use bob, he
has created the single file plugin I am keen to test. Bob is so rich with
features it has been hard to confirm exactly what can be done with it.

Jeremy/TiddlyDesktop

- Good OS platform support, easy install, would work well if .tw files
could be associated with it, and or we could open in, or share to
TiddlyDesktop from Internet etc..

All the rest of you Mark, Arlen Bimlas, Jed, Mario, David etc.. Lots to
work through thanks

Regards
Tony

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Re: [tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

Actually, I just looked it up, and you're right, it is quite similar. The
difference in my scenario is it installs the plug-in in the browser instead
of the wiki. I will definitely look into this more.

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019, 20:13 Arlen Beiler  wrote:

> There are different scenarios being considered here. TiddlyServer already
> does what you mentioned, however there are some more advanced options we
> could implement. What I'm referring to is that file:// urls can be saved
> back to the filesystem via TiddlyFox calling Extension calling a Save
> Handler on a localhost listener with a preshared key allowing only the
> extension and nothing else.
>
> On Wed, Nov 20, 2019, 17:01 Jed Carty  wrote:
>
>> Your description of the node executable listening on a port is exactly
>> what the BobSaver does. So that part already exists. At the moment the
>> security is that it just accepts connections on localhost, I don't think
>> that saving files locally makes sense for a remote connection.
>>
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>> 
>> .
>>
>

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Re: [tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

There are different scenarios being considered here. TiddlyServer already
does what you mentioned, however there are some more advanced options we
could implement. What I'm referring to is that file:// urls can be saved
back to the filesystem via TiddlyFox calling Extension calling a Save
Handler on a localhost listener with a preshared key allowing only the
extension and nothing else.

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019, 17:01 Jed Carty  wrote:

> Your description of the node executable listening on a port is exactly
> what the BobSaver does. So that part already exists. At the moment the
> security is that it just accepts connections on localhost, I don't think
> that saving files locally makes sense for a remote connection.
>
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> 
> .
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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-20 Thread Jed Carty

Your description of the node executable listening on a port is exactly what 
the BobSaver does. So that part already exists. At the moment the security 
is that it just accepts connections on localhost, I don't think that saving 
files locally makes sense for a remote connection.

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Re: [tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

Researched a bit, and we're not the only ones that want to edit desktop
files. Web apps are becoming more common and Chrome and Firefox are working
on a solution to this problem. So the solution for desktop single-file
wikis should be somewhat simpler a year or two from now.

*There is one solution that doesn't use any kind of major integration but
instead would establish a secure session between the extension and a Node
executable listening on a certain port. You could copy a key from the Node
console and paste it into a text box in the extension settings page and it
would be securely connected. The only permission needed would be the
ability to listen on localhost on a user-defined port. *This would take
about 20 hours to implement a basic TiddlyFox saver or to integrate a
regular configuration page for TiddlyServer which allows the user to browse
the file system and select folders from TiddlyServer point of view. This
would make TiddlyServer much easier to use in my opinion.

Also, just saw on the Quine forum today that Quine 2 is in the works, so
some support there would probably help, I'm sure. Quine 2 is going to have
support for the Files app, though I don't know what all that entails. Quine
is for the iOS platform.

Bringing the Electron prototype I already have up to speed would probably
take about 20 hours.

Putting TiddlyServer into Electron would justify a number of additional
features that are hard to justify using Node for security reasons. That
would probably be a much larger project. Say 60 hours or so. The same
features could also be implemented using a browser extension and the secure
channel I mentioned above, which would take less time and still allow users
to keep their other extensions such as Grammarly.

Arlen

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 3:32 PM 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki <
tiddlywiki@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> I understood the question to be, not "What is a good saving mechanism for
> TW?" but "What's the best solution for the non-technical person?".
> TiddlyServer
> might be the best over-all solution (hypothetically), but it's not simple.
> You have to install and configure node. You have to download a version of
> TS. You
> have to unzip, You have to copy a configuration file and then edit it with
> an editor. You have to make sense of weird-sounding parameters.
> Then you have to remember to launch it and you have to know howto navigate
> on the url bar. I've typed 127.0.0.1 thousands of times.
> It doesn't look strange to me. But it does to noobies. Configuration
> issues are also
> why Bob isn't in the running, IMO. But I would be curious to see how it
> works with the new single file saver.
>
> The same logic applies to Polly, which requires configuration.
>
> These concerns would be relegated mostly to Mac and Windows. I figure
> anyone on Linux would not find these issues difficult.
>
> These days, I think we can assume that users know how to download and
> install regular, certified software like Firefox. There is hand-holding
> built into these activities already. You don't have to know much about
> file structure, for instance. Once firefox is up, then you can install
> extensions just by clicking on an icon and searching for a name. Not too
> technical. After that there's only one small configuration issue --
> you have to specify the root drive for downloads. If this is your only FF
> instance, then all a person has to do to launch a TW file is to
> right-click and select "Open with Firefox".
>
> The problem I see with a Plugin that connects to a program on the drive is
> installation of the file and certification. It really needs to a
> certified app so that the user doesn't get these dire messages and so that
> the IT department doesn't throw a fit. Then someone will
> have to maintain an extension on Edge, FF, and Chrome -- a constantly
> changing target.
>
> Perhaps you should put together an estimate of how much work / money it
> would take to make an all-in-one single file solution.
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 11:28:37 AM UTC-8, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>>
>> Tony,
>>
>> I've read most of this thread and find it quite interesting. Yes, we
>> really do lack a simple way to save TiddlyWiki5 years after the FireFox
>> Apocalypse. But there are many more options available that have not been
>> put to use yet, or fully fleshed out. Why? I think it is funding. I
>> personally could write all the solutions you could ever need but I do not
>> have the funding to support myself while I do it. I know there are a couple
>> of others here that might be similarly skilled but might not have the
>> funds. I don't know what other people's schedules are like, but mine is
>> fairly ad-hoc and I could probably make room for it in my work week.
>>
>> Now, what solutions are there? There are quite a few.
>>
>> TiddlyServer does support saving single-file wikis as well as data
>> folders. Not sure why that wasn't mentioned earlier. And you could easily
>> fit TiddlyServer into

[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-20 Thread Jed Carty

I am a bit curious what configuration Bob requires that prevents it from 
being useful here? If you use BobEXE than you just download it and open it.

There are undoubtedly bugs in the saver because so far I am the only one 
who has used it, but once Bob is running and the saver plugin is installed 
you just open an html file normally by double clicking on it and then as 
long as Bob is open it will save to the same file that you opened. There 
shouldn't be any browser restrictions or anything other than you have to 
have Bob running.

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Re: [tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-20 Thread 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki

I understood the question to be, not "What is a good saving mechanism for 
TW?" but "What's the best solution for the non-technical person?". 
TiddlyServer
might be the best over-all solution (hypothetically), but it's not simple. 
You have to install and configure node. You have to download a version of 
TS. You
have to unzip, You have to copy a configuration file and then edit it with 
an editor. You have to make sense of weird-sounding parameters.
Then you have to remember to launch it and you have to know howto navigate 
on the url bar. I've typed 127.0.0.1 thousands of times. 
It doesn't look strange to me. But it does to noobies. Configuration issues 
are also
why Bob isn't in the running, IMO. But I would be curious to see how it 
works with the new single file saver.

The same logic applies to Polly, which requires configuration.

These concerns would be relegated mostly to Mac and Windows. I figure 
anyone on Linux would not find these issues difficult.

These days, I think we can assume that users know how to download and 
install regular, certified software like Firefox. There is hand-holding
built into these activities already. You don't have to know much about file 
structure, for instance. Once firefox is up, then you can install
extensions just by clicking on an icon and searching for a name. Not too 
technical. After that there's only one small configuration issue --
you have to specify the root drive for downloads. If this is your only FF 
instance, then all a person has to do to launch a TW file is to
right-click and select "Open with Firefox". 

The problem I see with a Plugin that connects to a program on the drive is 
installation of the file and certification. It really needs to a 
certified app so that the user doesn't get these dire messages and so that 
the IT department doesn't throw a fit. Then someone will
have to maintain an extension on Edge, FF, and Chrome -- a constantly 
changing target. 

Perhaps you should put together an estimate of how much work / money it 
would take to make an all-in-one single file solution.

On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 11:28:37 AM UTC-8, Arlen Beiler wrote:
>
> Tony, 
>
> I've read most of this thread and find it quite interesting. Yes, we 
> really do lack a simple way to save TiddlyWiki5 years after the FireFox 
> Apocalypse. But there are many more options available that have not been 
> put to use yet, or fully fleshed out. Why? I think it is funding. I 
> personally could write all the solutions you could ever need but I do not 
> have the funding to support myself while I do it. I know there are a couple 
> of others here that might be similarly skilled but might not have the 
> funds. I don't know what other people's schedules are like, but mine is 
> fairly ad-hoc and I could probably make room for it in my work week. 
>
> Now, what solutions are there? There are quite a few. 
>
> TiddlyServer does support saving single-file wikis as well as data 
> folders. Not sure why that wasn't mentioned earlier. And you could easily 
> fit TiddlyServer into Electron if you really wanted to so it would be its 
> own app, but that's not necessary. 
>
> A Chrome/Firefox/Edge plugin that connects to a program installed on the 
> user's computer and allows wikis to be saved. It would definitely have to 
> have some safety controls built-in, such as only allowing local files to 
> save and only allowing them to save back to their own file, but it is a 
> very viable option. It's probably the closest way to match the abilities of 
> mobile apps. 
>
> Mobile works so well because apps can include a browser window directly in 
> the app and communicate with that window through various pathways. So 
> mobile is actually much easier to solve, and the technology is already in 
> common use. It's possible to run TiddlyServer on Android, but not iOS (that 
> I could find). 
>
> Cloud connectors have been made by myself and others, but they have not 
> been maintained, mostly because of lack of funds or interest, I suppose. 
> They are, however, a very good option for single-file wikis and could be 
> set up for data folders as well, though this is much more complicated. But 
> for highly mobile users who store their stuff online (a lot of business 
> people do), this is a pretty good option. 
>
> There are different ways we could use cloud connectors. We could store 
> them in the wiki, or host them on github.io and allow you to access your 
> Dropbox or other online storage accounts. We could also hook up a wiki to 
> GitHub to track revisions directly from GitHub. I don't know how this works 
> but I'm sure it would be easily possible. The options are almost as 
> limitless as the cloud storage platforms available to use. 
>
> I recently came up with a system where the core and other large plugins 
> can be loaded from the web, which requires a dependable internet 
> connection, but in these scenarios works perfectly fine. And a bonus is 
> that the

[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-20 Thread PMario

Hi,

Tiddlywiki is an .html file and I don't see a reason to change the 
extension. This will only cause problems in the future. 

html is html is html. 

-mario

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

Further to Timimi use

In FireFox I can browse to a folder location such 
as file:///C:/Data/TW5/Development and see the files there, such that 
clicking on empty5.1.19.tw would open that file in the browser and Timimi 
is engaged and works. This means both explorer (other platforms equivalent) 
and directory browsing in the browser provide a file manager for tiddlywiki 
files. Especially if we set a standard folder such as documents/tiddlywiki 
or in windows file:///C:/Users/username/Documents/tiddlywiki/

Regards
Tony

On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 1:41:31 PM UTC+11, TonyM wrote:
>
> Mark,
>
> I am however keen to see if there is an easier way. Timimi is easy to 
> install and currently works on FireFox and the following oS
>
>- Debian based systems - Debian, Ubuntu, Elementary, Mint etc
>- Arch based systems - Arch Linux, Antergos, Manjaro etc
>- Windows 7 and later.
>
> If we could find a way, perhaps even crowdsource its development on other 
> key browsers then we should have a fairly universal solution.
>
> Currently Timimi needs Firefox, an Add on and 
>
> Part of its universality comes from the fact Timimi allows tiddlywikis to 
> be treated as documents on any platform, thus leveraging the basic computer 
> skills most users have. Using a .tw file would help further, adding an 
> association to a browser such as FireFox with the Timimi add on whether or 
> not it is the default for html files.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 11:09:35 AM UTC+11, Mark S. wrote:
>>
>> I think it's also as minimalist as it's going to get for users. Most 
>> users can install software. Most users know how to use a browser and 
>> install extensions.
>>
>> There is no save mechanism with TW. That's the simple fact. Any attempt 
>> to work around that fact will add complexity one way or the other. 
>> So the next best thing is to come up with a process that uses steps the 
>> user is already familiar with.
>>
>> On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 1:53:00 PM UTC-8, TonyM wrote:
>>>
>>> Mark
>>>
>>> Thanks for finding another method, this is out of the box as they say. I 
>>> wonder if the setup can be automated. 
>>>
>>> I am sure you can see this is minimalist as far as its changes to the 
>>> users computer but not minimalist as far as the complexity to a new user.
>>>
>>> Great response though
>>> Tony
>>>
>>>

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

All,

This is proving to be a great repository of ideas, savings mechanisms and
exploring the possibilities.

One method I have being wondering about is how TiddlyServer handles single
file wikis. Clearly it makes use of node for the folder based wikis and the
wikis appear at http:/ipaddress/virtual/folder but this requires the
somewhat cumbersome settings.json file.

I wonder if an executable install of a subset of TiddlyServer/or Node, to
save tiddlywikis at a standard location eg Documents/TiddlyWiki and a link
to eg: http:/ipaddress:8081/ where Documents/TiddlyWiki is the root folder
and supporting files like node installed elsewhere, such that it serves
single File Wikis (at least). With a custom association perhaps we could
Double click a tw file and it will open at http:/ipaddress:8081/twname.tw
or http:/ipaddress:8081/foldername/twname.tw

In this case it is one install script per Operating system and this is
minimised using node and a fixed tiddlywiki folder. This would be mostly
browser independent.

The ability to be online in a wiki and and some how use the download or
default save, to save a wiki to the above documents/tiddlywiki would make
access to and saving future wikis and editions simple.

Just further ideas
Tony

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

Mark,

I am however keen to see if there is an easier way. Timimi is easy to 
install and currently works on FireFox and the following oS

   - Debian based systems - Debian, Ubuntu, Elementary, Mint etc
   - Arch based systems - Arch Linux, Antergos, Manjaro etc
   - Windows 7 and later.

If we could find a way, perhaps even crowdsource its development on other 
key browsers then we should have a fairly universal solution.

Currently Timimi needs Firefox, an Add on and 

Part of its universality comes from the fact Timimi allows tiddlywikis to 
be treated as documents on any platform, thus leveraging the basic computer 
skills most users have. Using a .tw file would help further, adding an 
association to a browser such as FireFox with the Timimi add on whether or 
not it is the default for html files.





On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 11:09:35 AM UTC+11, Mark S. wrote:
>
> I think it's also as minimalist as it's going to get for users. Most users 
> can install software. Most users know how to use a browser and install 
> extensions.
>
> There is no save mechanism with TW. That's the simple fact. Any attempt to 
> work around that fact will add complexity one way or the other. 
> So the next best thing is to come up with a process that uses steps the 
> user is already familiar with.
>
> On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 1:53:00 PM UTC-8, TonyM wrote:
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> Thanks for finding another method, this is out of the box as they say. I 
>> wonder if the setup can be automated. 
>>
>> I am sure you can see this is minimalist as far as its changes to the 
>> users computer but not minimalist as far as the complexity to a new user.
>>
>> Great response though
>> Tony
>>
>>

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-19 Thread 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki

I think it's also as minimalist as it's going to get for users. Most users 
can install software. Most users know how to use a browser and install 
extensions.

There is no save mechanism with TW. That's the simple fact. Any attempt to 
work around that fact will add complexity one way or the other. 
So the next best thing is to come up with a process that uses steps the 
user is already familiar with.

On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 1:53:00 PM UTC-8, TonyM wrote:
>
> Mark
>
> Thanks for finding another method, this is out of the box as they say. I 
> wonder if the setup can be automated. 
>
> I am sure you can see this is minimalist as far as its changes to the 
> users computer but not minimalist as far as the complexity to a new user.
>
> Great response though
> Tony
>
>

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

David,

Your suggested approach looks similar to other installs and uses a path many 
will be familiar with so it has merit. Now lets think what saver we include.

By the way I would like to see the zip contain the online wiki with content 
including user changes and the saver so they continue working. Or something 
similar.

Regards
Tony

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

Mark

Thanks for finding another method, this is out of the box as they say. I wonder 
if the setup can be automated. 

I am sure you can see this is minimalist as far as its changes to the users 
computer but not minimalist as far as the complexity to a new user.

Great response though
Tony

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-19 Thread 'Mark S.' via TiddlyWiki

Ok. This seems to be working. Knock on silicon. It's about as easy as it's 
going to get.

1. Install firefox (ignore what I said about browser-agnostic)
2. Create a profile for TW files and boot with it the following steps
3. In the settings, set your download dir to the the root of your system 
(usually C:\)
4. Reboot FF with profile
5. In the add-ons, look for PMarios' file-backups. Install.
6. Reboot FF with profile
7. Create a short-cut for the FF with profile, if desired.

Now any TW files inside your main file system will use the file-backups to 
save. You can make
other profiles if you have other drives (e.g. flash drives) where you need 
to save. Note that if you
change your download directory, you may have to reboot FF.

Think of FF-with-profile as its own app.

No executables are required except FF. No additional servers or processes 
running. No configuration files.

On Sunday, November 17, 2019 at 7:03:52 PM UTC-8, TonyM wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> This post is seeking input from the community to overcome what I perceive 
> to be the last big issue in saving. It may seem only suited to experienced 
> users but perhaps you know something we don't, so please be brave and 
> contribute.
>
> I may have an opportunity in coming months to work with a team of 
> videographers in their off season. They do "things for good" and my thought 
> was to build a nice application (on tiddlywiki) for people to explore how 
> they or their business can participate in reaching the *Sustainable 
> Development Goals (SDG's)*. This will promote the SDG's, their work, my 
> work and the power of TiddlyWiki, but there seems to me, to still be an 
> elephant in the room - saving.
>
> *How do we enable saving tiddlywikis for naive and casual users?*
>
> To be sure, I am across most saving mechanisms, and some are very good and 
> quite easy to set up a very sophisticated solution, I use Timimi, 
> TiddlyServer, TiddlyDesktop and Bob.exe 
>
> Imagine someone visits my SDG app online
>
>- They could use it and apply changes but not save it
>- With local storage and save some changes in the browser but they may 
>be lost later
>- They Can download it easily enough, even with their in browser or 
>local storage content
>- But if they wish to open it again, make changes and save they then 
>need to consider this https://tiddlywiki.com/#GettingStarted - scary 
>for many.
>
> Basically I think tiddlywiki is brilliant and we have lots of wonderful 
> options for saving, once someone gets involved with the ecosystem, I 
> believe any nodeJS solution is hard to secure on the internet and like 
> NoteSelf we have to manage the server, but it seems we are so close to a 
> better single file solution (My Opinion).
>  
> I know some saving mechanisms come close to helping *naive and casual 
> users* however their remains a need to take unfamiliar steps, that can be 
> quite fragile, especially to those not overly computer literate. Saving 
> under downloads folders, running batches and installing local apps are all 
> impediments to *naive and casual users* in my view, as this becomes 
> Operating system dependant, demands more trust, will not work in many 
> locked down cases and more.
>
> I am starting this thread to try and inspire some serious creativity to 
> overcome this barrier. Here are some ideas floating in my head but I am 
> keen to hear from you.
>
>- Any idea is a good idea
>- A diversity of ideas in needed
>- We may need to "think outside the box"
>- Can an existing solution be better engineered to meet these goals?
>
> Some of my own musings
>
>- One approach may be to never download the whole wiki, but store the 
>changes in a separate file that is automatically loaded over the in 
> browser 
>one, and saved only by saving changes back to the nominated file.
>- Building all the necessary content to install Timimi or another 
>saver from the single wiki (No other document or external info required) 
>Not yet chrome and IE
>- A Form of bob.exe/TiddlyDesktop that can be loaded with a custom 
>tiddlywiki that shows only that wiki unless some settings are changed in 
>the control panel. Ie a single local installable.
>- A Way of packaging a TiddlyWiki with Node.exe and hosting on a port 
>that will not clash with other server hosts, perhaps an packaged extension 
>of TiddlySaver.
>- I was inspired to open this up to the community after playing with 
> bookmarklets 
>and Jeremy's solution 
>
> 
>  because 
>javascript can be loaded into bookmarks I wonder if it could be used to 
>save changes to local tiddlywiki files and reimport on click. 
>- I also looked at solutions such as 
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMacros which suggests there may be 
>other ways to achieve the desired

[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-19 Thread David Gifford

Hi Tony

Could there be a second version of tiddlywiki.com/empty.html that when you 
click the download button, you download a zip file with the saver file 
included, and a popup in empty.html with brief instructions? That way there 
could be a dead simple download with a saver, and a lighter download with 
no saver for those who just need a TW file.

Dave

On Sunday, November 17, 2019 at 9:03:52 PM UTC-6, TonyM wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> This post is seeking input from the community to overcome what I perceive 
> to be the last big issue in saving. It may seem only suited to experienced 
> users but perhaps you know something we don't, so please be brave and 
> contribute.
>
> I may have an opportunity in coming months to work with a team of 
> videographers in their off season. They do "things for good" and my thought 
> was to build a nice application (on tiddlywiki) for people to explore how 
> they or their business can participate in reaching the *Sustainable 
> Development Goals (SDG's)*. This will promote the SDG's, their work, my 
> work and the power of TiddlyWiki, but there seems to me, to still be an 
> elephant in the room - saving.
>
> *How do we enable saving tiddlywikis for naive and casual users?*
>
> To be sure, I am across most saving mechanisms, and some are very good and 
> quite easy to set up a very sophisticated solution, I use Timimi, 
> TiddlyServer, TiddlyDesktop and Bob.exe 
>
> Imagine someone visits my SDG app online
>
>- They could use it and apply changes but not save it
>- With local storage and save some changes in the browser but they may 
>be lost later
>- They Can download it easily enough, even with their in browser or 
>local storage content
>- But if they wish to open it again, make changes and save they then 
>need to consider this https://tiddlywiki.com/#GettingStarted - scary 
>for many.
>
> Basically I think tiddlywiki is brilliant and we have lots of wonderful 
> options for saving, once someone gets involved with the ecosystem, I 
> believe any nodeJS solution is hard to secure on the internet and like 
> NoteSelf we have to manage the server, but it seems we are so close to a 
> better single file solution (My Opinion).
>  
> I know some saving mechanisms come close to helping *naive and casual 
> users* however their remains a need to take unfamiliar steps, that can be 
> quite fragile, especially to those not overly computer literate. Saving 
> under downloads folders, running batches and installing local apps are all 
> impediments to *naive and casual users* in my view, as this becomes 
> Operating system dependant, demands more trust, will not work in many 
> locked down cases and more.
>
> I am starting this thread to try and inspire some serious creativity to 
> overcome this barrier. Here are some ideas floating in my head but I am 
> keen to hear from you.
>
>- Any idea is a good idea
>- A diversity of ideas in needed
>- We may need to "think outside the box"
>- Can an existing solution be better engineered to meet these goals?
>
> Some of my own musings
>
>- One approach may be to never download the whole wiki, but store the 
>changes in a separate file that is automatically loaded over the in 
> browser 
>one, and saved only by saving changes back to the nominated file.
>- Building all the necessary content to install Timimi or another 
>saver from the single wiki (No other document or external info required) 
>Not yet chrome and IE
>- A Form of bob.exe/TiddlyDesktop that can be loaded with a custom 
>tiddlywiki that shows only that wiki unless some settings are changed in 
>the control panel. Ie a single local installable.
>- A Way of packaging a TiddlyWiki with Node.exe and hosting on a port 
>that will not clash with other server hosts, perhaps an packaged extension 
>of TiddlySaver.
>- I was inspired to open this up to the community after playing with 
> bookmarklets 
>and Jeremy's solution 
>
> 
>  because 
>javascript can be loaded into bookmarks I wonder if it could be used to 
>save changes to local tiddlywiki files and reimport on click. 
>- I also looked at solutions such as 
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMacros which suggests there may be 
>other ways to achieve the desired results.
>- IPFS, BeakerBrowser, CouchDB or saving to a MYSQL or even a 
>wordpress database?
>
>
> All I want for Christmas is a simple way for *naive and casual users *to 
> save their tiddlywiki (again and again)
>
> Yours Sincerely
> Tony
>

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-19 Thread TiddlyTweeter

Where is BOB is this discussion?

Just wondering. It seems very pertinent.
Node based, or node wrapped in EXE, with CLOUD possibilities.

Best wishes
TT

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

Thanks Okido.

This points it one direction I have being thinking about. A simplified node 
install perhaps. Do you control which wiki is hosted with scripts?

can you see a version of your solution being easy to setup for new users?

Thanks for your perspective.

Tony 

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-19 Thread okido

Hi Tony,

Let me share my experience as a long time TW user.

I started with TWclassic on a usb stick and Firefox portable.

This gave me a lot of freedom, it was easy to move the files around between
Linux and Windows systems without needing admin rights.

Read, write actions to the file system was easy and I made some TWc’s that
relied on this heavily.

More restrictive browsers made me think how to overcome the the problem of
restricted access to the file system as some of my TWc got broken.

Secondly whenever I promoted TWc as a tool to make work lighter and easier
I stumbled over the saving issue’s.

I tried most savers but was not satisfied, in most cases they did not run
out of the box. TiddlyDesktop came close to what I needed.

However, I use only TWc and I did not want to have the TW5 code overhead in
TiddlyDesktop.
So I decided to switch to NW.js and wrote a saver
for TWc, access to the file system
is very easy.

I can move the TWC files between Linux and Windows again and all
functionality is restored, the same functionality as when I started years
ago. In one instance of NW.js you can open as many TWc’s as you need, they
run in independent windows. I must say that NW.js runs stable and it is
fast.

Still there is file structure dependency, you cannot put your file in any
location and run it from there. Files in folders downstream from the NW.js
application work out of the box.

For me the way to go is to make use of the relation between file extension
and default application.

A file with an extension like .tw will be opened by the default application
that in my use case will be NW.js.

For me TWc has become a framework now that I use in NW.js. This delivers me
flexible applications for note taking, project management, data analysis
and report creation.

Browsers I hardly use anymore for TWc.

Have a nice day, Okido

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-19 Thread TiddlyTweeter

Ciao TonyM

Couple of footnotes to this ... 

TonyM wrote:
>
> One avenue I have toyed with is saving tiddlywiki files with the .tw 
> extension and installing a local binary, that on open it loads it into a 
> "TiddlyDesktop like app" with no additional chrome or wiki selection, just 
> that wiki. Of course this solution will need a multi-os install binary. The 
> advantage with this is you are not loosing the knowledge it is a tiddlywiki 
> file by keeping it as a tw file so it does not just revert to the default 
> browser. The wiki then becomes a "document" that the Operating system 
> associates with the local binary.
>

I'd say that software on mobile phones is rather good at "wrapping" the TW 
"document". I assume its still using a "browser" inside Quinoid, Quine & 
Tiddloid (?) but they provide examples of the near seamless experience you 
are referring to.

And the issue with a "wrapper" for TW on main desktops I think is broadly 
solved by TiddlyDesktop (though there are issues on its portability that 
would need solving).
It might be worth experimenting with TD to see if it can be tweaked to 
fully match your objective?

Best wishes
Josiah

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-19 Thread TiddlyTweeter

Ciao Bimlas

Though I understand where you are coming from on this ...

bimlas wrote...
>
> TiddlyWiki is not for those who want to create a point-and-click notebook, 
> but for those who want to manage, search, and reuse their notes, knowledge, 
> and data at a higher level. 
>

I don't think that is correct in principle, though it might tend that way 
in terms of actual usage (but lacking data on wider usage of TW I'm not 
sure on actual usage either). 

Point-&-click for many apps could be easily built in TW. 
The issue would be defining "what is the app. for"? In other words its *a 
developer's job* to design for use cases. 

I don't think TW has any inherent requirement that it be used for anything 
in particular. It seems, rather, a kind of self-changing mini development 
environment.

So let's not confuse "development" with "final app." 
In this group discussion naturally tends to focus on tweaking, 
understanding TW's coding, its syntax and example results.
But that isn't the same as what an end-user would have to deal with for an 
app. written in TW.

Its exactly the same issue, in a way, as conventional software. I use Word, 
I don't need to know how it works.

Best wishes
Josiah

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

Thanks all for your continued feedback

A point I would like to reinforce here, can be a response to Bimlas

I don't really know if it would be useful to make TiddlyWiki as easy as 
> possible. If it would be so easy to handle that a five year old would 
> understand, I'm afraid this community wouldn't be as great as it is now. I 
> think the difficulties that we are trying to solve in this and similar 
> topics provide a natural filter: only people who overcome these obstacles 
> will use Tiddly because they really need Tiddly.
>


   - I agree that the current audience for tiddlywiki has possibly being 
   refined by selecting for those with the knowledge and experience to both 
   see its potential and make use of it.
   - However I have to disagree here because those with expert skills need 
   a way to provide easy access interactive solutions to the broader audience. 
   Simple use is not mealy a gap for the designers it is a gap for delivery of 
   the results to the public.
   - I am not asking here for the ultimate answer just a minimalist path to 
   user interaction, such as if FireFox is on every OS platform then a firefox 
   solution that is easy to follow would be a sufficient extension to the 
   default save mechanism.

My vision includes the development of focused solution tiddlywikis that 
work when you discover them online, can interact with them immediately and 
make them your own. Local storage allows more than one change to be stored 
in the wiki, it is then possible for the wiki to be downloaded even using 
the default saver, most browsers permit you to set the download location or 
you can copy paste it from the download folder to a documents folder (This 
is standard user practice).

The Wiki can be reopened easily into any browser, but It is the next step 
that we suddenly get the complexity. 
This is when the saver becomes necessary and the Operating System and 
Browser comes into the formulae.

So Consider The Wiki can be reopened easily into another app as well
One avenue I have toyed with is saving tiddlywiki files with the .tw 
extension and installing a local binary, that on open it loads it into a 
"TiddlyDesktop like app" with no additional chrome or wiki selection, just 
that wiki. Of course this solution will need a multi-os install binary. The 
advantage with this is you are not loosing the knowledge it is a tiddlywiki 
file by keeping it as a tw file so it does not just revert to the default 
browser. The wiki then becomes a "document" that the Operating system 
associates with the local binary.

So in the above model  when online we provide an "offline" backup, of 
changes, and the opportunity to download, where it becomes a document with 
a helper app available if you want edit locally and full access to the 
local machine, which typically is what you expect after downloading a 
document, not reverting back into the online browser where security is a 
concern and a barrier to us.

Regards
Tony



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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?



On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 1:19:54 PM UTC-8, bimlas wrote:
>
> Mark S,
>
> None of these solutions will copy from one place on your hard drive to 
>> another place on the same hard drive.
>>
>> That's why we made Polly -- which automatically copies files saved in the 
>> download folder back to their original home.
>>
>
> But as I know the problem is, saving to the file system is not easy 
> enough, it is relatively complicated for beginners. Where to store files on 
> your hard disk is less important to me than being able to automatically 
> save the wiki from your browser to your hard disk without using the file 
> selection dialog.
>
>
Really? You don't care where the file is saved to? In that case, just set 
up a special profile for Firefox (or Chrome, maybe), set your "root" wiki 
download directory, and use PMario's file-backups.

Now when you need TW, just launch FF with the profile, and you're all set 
to go. You can still use this for regular browsing, but it won't use the 
default download directory.

Set up different profiles for various "home" directories.

Don't know if Chrome has profiles that work this way.

Now that I've suggested it, guess I need to go try it ...

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

Mark S,

None of these solutions will copy from one place on your hard drive to 
> another place on the same hard drive.
>
> That's why we made Polly -- which automatically copies files saved in the 
> download folder back to their original home.
>

But as I know the problem is, saving to the file system is not easy enough, 
it is relatively complicated for beginners. Where to store files on your 
hard disk is less important to me than being able to automatically save the 
wiki from your browser to your hard disk without using the file selection 
dialog.

As I understand it, Polly (which I haven't tried before, so I might have 
misunderstood) also requires manual backup (so that you press the "Save 
changes" button yourself), so it is as foreign to the new users as the 
built-in default download saver (EDIT: after turning on $:/Config -> Saving 
-> Download Saver -> Permit automatic saving, I think I understand Polly's 
purpose). The opening comment is that this type of backup mechanism (saving 
their wiki via dialog) scares people who are just getting to know 
TiddlyWiki (as it did with me first) because it seems overly complicated. I 
envisioned using the above mentioned applications as a separate saver and 
new users would have to do just one setup (saver selection) so they could 
easily use Tiddly.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to get a little out of the original topic:

Let's see who uses TiddlyWiki for the most part: scientists, teachers, 
technical people, programmers, so intellectuals. I do not think this is a 
coincidence, because the use of TiddlyWiki is basically not easy to 
understood for average users. TiddlyWiki is not for those who want to 
create a point-and-click notebook, but for those who want to manage, 
search, and reuse their notes, knowledge, and data at a higher level. I 
think that's what brought this "high quality" community to life, because 
only people who see the opportunities in TiddlyWiki are committed to it. 
Those who just want to categorize their notes will skip cognition because 
they find it too complicated.

I don't really know if it would be useful to make TiddlyWiki as easy as 
possible. If it would be so easy to handle that a five year old would 
understand, I'm afraid this community wouldn't be as great as it is now. I 
think the difficulties that we are trying to solve in this and similar 
topics provide a natural filter: only people who overcome these obstacles 
will use Tiddly because they really need Tiddly.

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

None of these solutions will copy from one place on your hard drive to 
another place on the same hard drive.

That's why we made Polly -- which automatically copies files saved in the 
download folder back to their original home.

It's possible that there are other automatic file movers/relocators that 
could be configured to do something similar.

On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 11:13:31 AM UTC-8, bimlas wrote:
>
> I have another idea: we may not be able to find a solution that works on 
> all platforms, but since the only goal is to save the file, there may 
> already be a workaround that others have already done and we just need to 
> use. I am thinking of Google Drive, Dropbox, Syncthing (which is 
> open-source): they can handle even if the user is offline, so they can also 
> be used to explicitly use them offline. I don't know if it is possible to 
> make a request to the apps from a browser, so far this is just an idea.
>

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

I have another idea: we may not be able to find a solution that works on 
all platforms, but since the only goal is to save the file, there may 
already be a workaround that others have already done and we just need to 
use. I am thinking of Google Drive, Dropbox, Syncthing (which is 
open-source): they can handle even if the user is offline, so they can also 
be used to explicitly use them offline. I don't know if it is possible to 
make a request to the apps from a browser, so far this is just an idea.

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

Another similar option: A mobile, desktop and website App with the same code

Article: 
https://medium.com/@benoitvallon/a-mobile-desktop-and-website-app-with-the-same-code-dc84ef7677ee
Code: https://github.com/benoitvallon/react-native-nw-react-calculator

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?



> I don't know if it has file system access, but if so, we could merge 
> TiddlyDesktop and Tiddloid / Quinoid applications.
>

... it 
has: https://flutter.dev/docs/cookbook/persistence/reading-writing-files 

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

TiddlyDesktop is OOD because everything else progressed around it already.

Give me a release of TWD with relative pathing to Wiki and within a recent 
version of TW

TT

Mark S. wrote:
>
> Edit: I didn't realize how out of date TiddlyDesktop was. I guess it's 
> back to the default download saver.
>

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

I don't know yet if it's really usable, but maybe something similar could 
be done to make the same system a saver on all platforms:

https://flutter.dev/

"Flutter is Google’s UI toolkit for building beautiful, natively compiled 
applications *for mobile, web, and desktop from a single codebase*."

I don't know if it has file system access, but if so, we could merge 
TiddlyDesktop and Tiddloid / Quinoid applications.

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

We could look at how the big players, like Evernote, solve this problem.

They solve it with lots and lots of money! They create solutions for the 
cloud and for each and every platform.

We could do something similar, specify the best solutions for every 
Platform/method choice.

It seems that it might be possible to declare the "definitive" solution for 
each combination of
platform/OS/type.

e.g.


Desktop / Mac-Windows-Linux / Single-file : TiddlyDesktop
Desktop / Mac-Windows-Linux / Data folder: Bob, node.js, Tiddlyserver
Android / v5+ / Single-file: <-oid>
Android / v5+ / Data folder: Termux/TiddlyServer
Cloud/non-private / * / Single-file: Tiddlyspot

I think we need to be browser-agnostic. Asking people to install a special 
browser just
so they can run TiddlyWiki is probably too much.

If we had to mandate a browser, we could just specify an old version of FF 
with tiddlyfox.



On Sunday, November 17, 2019 at 7:03:52 PM UTC-8, TonyM wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> This post is seeking input from the community to overcome what I perceive 
> to be the last big issue in saving. It may seem only suited to experienced 
> users but perhaps you know something we don't, so please be brave and 
> contribute.
>
> I may have an opportunity in coming months to work with a team of 
> videographers in their off season. They do "things for good" and my thought 
> was to build a nice application (on tiddlywiki) for people to explore how 
> they or their business can participate in reaching the *Sustainable 
> Development Goals (SDG's)*. This will promote the SDG's, their work, my 
> work and the power of TiddlyWiki, but there seems to me, to still be an 
> elephant in the room - saving.
>
> *How do we enable saving tiddlywikis for naive and casual users?*
>
> To be sure, I am across most saving mechanisms, and some are very good and 
> quite easy to set up a very sophisticated solution, I use Timimi, 
> TiddlyServer, TiddlyDesktop and Bob.exe 
>
> Imagine someone visits my SDG app online
>
>- They could use it and apply changes but not save it
>- With local storage and save some changes in the browser but they may 
>be lost later
>- They Can download it easily enough, even with their in browser or 
>local storage content
>- But if they wish to open it again, make changes and save they then 
>need to consider this https://tiddlywiki.com/#GettingStarted - scary 
>for many.
>
> Basically I think tiddlywiki is brilliant and we have lots of wonderful 
> options for saving, once someone gets involved with the ecosystem, I 
> believe any nodeJS solution is hard to secure on the internet and like 
> NoteSelf we have to manage the server, but it seems we are so close to a 
> better single file solution (My Opinion).
>  
> I know some saving mechanisms come close to helping *naive and casual 
> users* however their remains a need to take unfamiliar steps, that can be 
> quite fragile, especially to those not overly computer literate. Saving 
> under downloads folders, running batches and installing local apps are all 
> impediments to *naive and casual users* in my view, as this becomes 
> Operating system dependant, demands more trust, will not work in many 
> locked down cases and more.
>
> I am starting this thread to try and inspire some serious creativity to 
> overcome this barrier. Here are some ideas floating in my head but I am 
> keen to hear from you.
>
>- Any idea is a good idea
>- A diversity of ideas in needed
>- We may need to "think outside the box"
>- Can an existing solution be better engineered to meet these goals?
>
> Some of my own musings
>
>- One approach may be to never download the whole wiki, but store the 
>changes in a separate file that is automatically loaded over the in 
> browser 
>one, and saved only by saving changes back to the nominated file.
>- Building all the necessary content to install Timimi or another 
>saver from the single wiki (No other document or external info required) 
>Not yet chrome and IE
>- A Form of bob.exe/TiddlyDesktop that can be loaded with a custom 
>tiddlywiki that shows only that wiki unless some settings are changed in 
>the control panel. Ie a single local installable.
>- A Way of packaging a TiddlyWiki with Node.exe and hosting on a port 
>that will not clash with other server hosts, perhaps an packaged extension 
>of TiddlySaver.
>- I was inspired to open this up to the community after playing with 
> bookmarklets 
>and Jeremy's solution 
>
> 
>  because 
>javascript can be loaded into bookmarks I wonder if it could be used to 
>save changes to local tiddlywiki files and reimport on click. 
>- I also looked at solutions such as 
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMacros which suggests there may be 
>other ways to achieve the

Re: [tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

Oh yes -- I got it backwards. I guess then perhaps it could be the 
single-file, desktop solution. Though
you still have to go into the process manager and kill off several nw.exe 
processes. I don't mind too
much, but I think it would be too confusing for people who only use 
computers minimally.

Thanks!

On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 7:35:56 AM UTC-8, Jeremy Ruston wrote:
>
> Hi Mark 
>
> > Even on the desktop, TiddlyDesktop has complications that most every-day 
> users would find unacceptable. 
> > If you close out a single-file window, the only way to get it back is to 
> close out ALL your windows, and the 
> > instance (which may need to be killed with the process manager), and 
> then restart. That's too much, 
> > when all you wanted was to clear the clutter out of your toolbar. 
>
> I think you're talking about one of the limitations of using wiki folders 
> with TiddlyDesktop (which is rather experimental); windows of single-file 
> wikis can be closed/reopened as expected. 
>
> Best wishes 
>
> Jeremy

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Re: [tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

2019-11-18 Thread Jeremy Ruston

Hi Mark

> Even on the desktop, TiddlyDesktop has complications that most every-day 
> users would find unacceptable. 
> If you close out a single-file window, the only way to get it back is to 
> close out ALL your windows, and the 
> instance (which may need to be killed with the process manager), and then 
> restart. That's too much, 
> when all you wanted was to clear the clutter out of your toolbar.

I think you're talking about one of the limitations of using wiki folders with 
TiddlyDesktop (which is rather experimental); windows of single-file wikis can 
be closed/reopened as expected.

Best wishes

Jeremy

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

Even on the desktop, TiddlyDesktop has complications that most every-day 
users would find unacceptable. 
If you close out a single-file window, the only way to get it back is to 
close out ALL your windows, and the 
instance (which may need to be killed with the process manager), and then 
restart. That's too much, 
when all you wanted was to clear the clutter out of your toolbar.

There is no universal solution because each solution attempts to put a 
round peg into a polygonal hole, in some regards.

Javascript is the peg, and the various platforms and approaches are the 
holes. A solution that works for one, won't
work for another.

What we really need is a hacked browser that doesn't have the save 
limitation built in. In essence, that's
what you're doing on Android with the Android savers. Perhaps the browser 
would be prevented from
browsing the web (because that is dangerous), but it would open up all the 
other possibilities you get
when using a browser.

Actually, it's probably just a tiny part of the 32 million lines of code in 
modern browsers that regulate 
how saving works. And there's multiple projects based on hacking current 
browsers. 

-- Mark

On Monday, November 18, 2019 at 2:08:28 AM UTC-8, bimlas wrote:

> TonyM,
>
> The main problem is that there are different operating systems and 
> browsers, so you can't create a "generic" saver plugin: each system will 
> need different code to automatically save the wiki, and not all of them can 
> be implemented (because of restrictions to access the filesystem).
>
> I think the Timmimi plugin (or similar) should be upgraded to work in 
> every browser, as this is the easiest solution to use: just open the wiki 
> and it saves the changes automagically. Of course, the problem is that it 
> only works on the desktop, for example, you may not be able to install 
> browser add-ons on Android.
>
> Another option is to write the wiki to a location that is accessible on 
> all systems: this is browser local storage, but it is not perfect either 
> .
>
> The third option is to save it to an online location (GitHub, GitLab) 
> because it works with all browsers and operating systems, but this requires 
> the Internet, and you may not even want to save your notes online.
>
> I'm afraid that the main problem, not with TiddlyWiki, but with the 
> interoperability of browsers and operating systems, is something we can't 
> change. To improve this, TiddlyDesktop 
>  was created, which is 
> only available on desktop, not on Android.
>
> Anyway, this is a problem for which there is no solution, because the 
> limitations are outside our system.
>

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

Ciao TonyM

IF that could be installed seamlessly so the user would not need to have 
ever deal with what a "port" is ... ???

Do you think that is possible? How would you install it? Setup setup (sic.) 
executables for all platforms ???

My query: isn't this already heavily OS implementation specific?

Doesn't seem to match the OP :-)

TT, x

TonyM wrote:
>
> A minimal cross platform file server that can be installed with single 
> exec on a known port that tiddlywiki can detect and save to load from. E.g. 
> on node.

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

A minimal cross platform file server that can be installed with single exec on 
a known port that tiddlywiki can detect and save to load from. E.g. on node.

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

TT

Full agreement.

A little speculation

For mobile if tiddloid could be installed from the wiki or play store and 
passed the url to the published wiki It would be localised and savable.

Desktop a downloadable installer for all OS or local storage save and restore 
to file (If nessasary) changes only mechanism.  

Store changes in a bookmarklet or browser add-on.

Regards
Tony

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

Ciao TonyM

Got it. 

*I think you will hit an impasse on that thought between Desktop and Mobile 
that can't be bridged?*

You might solve it by dividing the issue into DT & Mobile solutions?
It might also be interesting to work back from a mobile solution to the DT 
to see IF there is a trick in common.

FYI, as you know, Mark S. & I created POLLY for desktops that has powerful 
automation---but NOT suitable here as it would need too many steps and 
would be limited to desktop only. Yet Polly shows that some TW issues can 
be solved well by using OS basic batch run commands rather than TW 
directly. 

So I think its partly a matter of finding a common-core that is cross-OS.

*Maybe, "in-browser saving" linked with OS mediated safety backup could 
work for your aim?*

But necessary safety restore of in-browser stored TW, so far as I know, 
does not exist yet. 
And I think you would need that.

Thoughts
TT

TonyM wrote:
>
> ... I am still looking to simplify the ability for a user to make a wiki 
> there own, a single file that they save and can edit. 
>
> I believe we are yet to uncover a hack or trick or minimal viable method
>
>

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?

TT

I agree with what you say in general such that cloud is likely to be a common 
delivery. 

However, I am still looking to simplify the ability for a user to make a wiki 
there own, a single file that they save and can edit. 

I believe we are yet to uncover a hack or trick or minimal viable method, that 
will not be the answer to everything, but reduces this first step.

not multiuser, not cross device just easy and reliable.

Regards
Tony

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[tw5] Re: The last word in Saving?