Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-12 Thread Peter Southwood
] On Behalf Of Lydia Pintscher Sent: 12 July 2015 06:34 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 6:17 PM, Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de wrote: Hey :) There has been a lot of talk about Wikidata

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-12 Thread Lydia Pintscher
: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org [mailto: wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Lydia Pintscher Sent: 12 July 2015 06:34 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 6:17 PM, Lydia

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-12 Thread Strainu
2015-07-12 19:34 GMT+03:00 Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 6:17 PM, Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de wrote: Hey :) There has been a lot of talk about Wikidata in this thread. We are indeed going to work on a solution. Lucie will be working on

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-12 Thread Lydia Pintscher
On Sun, Jul 12, 2015 at 10:49 PM, Strainu strain...@gmail.com wrote: I see the data source quoted there. Is there somewhere I can see the code that created that data? I am not sure how it all works but https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Module:Statistical_data and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-12 Thread Asaf Bartov
Thank you, this is excellent, and a good illustration of the tip of the iceberg of what's possible once things are well-described on Wikidata. A. On Sun, Jul 12, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 6:17 PM, Lydia Pintscher

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-12 Thread Lydia Pintscher
On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 6:17 PM, Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de wrote: Hey :) There has been a lot of talk about Wikidata in this thread. We are indeed going to work on a solution. Lucie will be working on this project as part of her bachelor thesis starting in August. It is

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-07 Thread Josh Lim
Hi Anders, While I would normally agree with your logic, take note that for both the Cebuano and Waray Wikipedias, there were only 1-2 editors who said yes to the endeavor. For Waray, that was JinJian. For Cebuano, that happened to also be JinJian and one other editor who is currently not

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-07 Thread Lydia Pintscher
Hey :) There has been a lot of talk about Wikidata in this thread. We are indeed going to work on a solution. Lucie will be working on this project as part of her bachelor thesis starting in August. It is called article placeholder. You can read more and give input at

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-07 Thread Josh Lim
Allow me to correct myself: my last line should read bot-generated articles ALONE won’t jump-start a community, as the Cebuano and Waray examples have shown. Josh Wiadomość napisana przez Josh Lim jamesjoshua...@yahoo.com w dniu 7 lip 2015, o godz. 10:01: Hi Anders, While I would

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-07 Thread Peter Southwood
] On Behalf Of Fæ Sent: 07 July 2015 04:09 PM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 From the perspective of a bot writer, and who proposed the automatic creation of a few thousand drafts for missing English Wikipedia articles for registered

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-07 Thread Josh Lim
Wiadomość napisana przez Anders Wennersten m...@anderswennersten.se w dniu 7 lip 2015, o godz. 04:11: What gives you the right to be judgemental how they act on their version? Is that your idea of the movement values and vision, to talk badly of other efforts? and I know for a fact

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-07 Thread Anders Wennersten
The figures for Cebano is: 20 M speakers (60th biggest language in world) and 13 active contributors (compare to Dutch 28 M speakers 1183 active) Waray-Waray has 3,1 M speakers 11 active contributors (but 4 new ones!) (compare to Slovene 2,4 M speakers, 141 active) Sverker (who runs

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-07 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, Have you EVER set foot in Wikidata? Because the notion that its data can be readily understood is absurd. Reasonator can be used in stead it may even generate text and, this works rather well for English. It could work for other languages. One problem with Reasonator is that for ordinary

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-07 Thread Ilario Valdelli
The best evaluation is to understand the evolution and the trend. In the last months in waray for instance I have seen less than 10 edits in the overall project in one month. This is not revitalization. I agree with the enthusiasm of the community members but I am personally in favor of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-07 Thread Anders Wennersten
I am not saying this should be repeated. I am saying we should respect their choice, and not as outsiders criticize their effort. or put erroneous bad faith assumptions on why they did this choice. Anders Ilario Valdelli skrev den 2015-07-07 13:21: The best evaluation is to understand

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-07 Thread Craig Franklin
There is already a consensus on enwiki (please, hold your rotten tomatoes) that projects like this which have inflated article counts due to extensive botting rather than through having a lively community not be included on the main page. I think a lot of the comments here about a huge article

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-07 Thread Ilario Valdelli
Thanks to have summarized my position. As speaker than more than one minor language I agree that there is no sense to inflate articles over the possibility of the small community to manage them. Not in opposition of automated generated articles but having in my hands the experience of project

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-07 Thread Anders Wennersten
What gives you the right to be judgemental how they act on their version? Is that your idea of the movement values and vision, to talk badly of other efforts? and I know for a fact they did not to this to get into this list you are upset of. It is untrue when you state like this which have

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-07 Thread
From the perspective of a bot writer, and who proposed the automatic creation of a few thousand drafts for missing English Wikipedia articles for registered monuments in Wales (the proposal was resisted), I would rather see auto-creation tools limited to *suggesting* stub articles on user request.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-07 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, You will appreciate that when text is generated and cached. It may change when additional statements are made. So it will improve as and when improved information becomes available. As someone who knows the IT branch as well, the maintenance of data is a challenge but you will agree with me

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-07 Thread Nathan
Craig - are you volunteering to lovingly handcraft the Waray encyclopedia article by article? Suggesting people go use Wikidata seems crazy. How will Waray speakers even know that Wikidata exists? How will they know how to manipulate the interface? More readable information available in the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, When people do not edit Wikipedia we are talking about a situation that does not exist. I wholeheartedly disagree with you as you mistake the process with the product. Our aim is to produce a product and we should endeavour to provide it in a SMART way. We lose out when we do not do the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Ilario Valdelli
Yes, and in this case I am saying that the bot populated Wikipedias are bad products because qualitatively poor, instead of an architecture of a data population and a creation of articles through Wikidata or through a central repository. Basically it's for a control of the content. A bot

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, Arguably the same is true for Wikipedia. Many faulty articles exist. There are many list articles incomplete because people do not maintain them. Wikilinks refer to the wrong information. Incomplete information is often as bad as wrong information. Badly written articles are bad particularly

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, Given that this is the Wikimedia mailing list, the assumption that Wikipedia is primary is not necessary. The objective of the Wikimedia Foundation is in this more relevant. Consequently the balance for an argument is different. I blog often about issues with Wikidata and Wikipedia. I often

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, Wikidata like Commons is a project in its own right. Its aim is to contribute to the aim of the Wikimedia Foundation first and to other projects second. Thanks, GerardM On 6 July 2015 at 11:42, Ilario Valdelli valde...@gmail.com wrote: If people don't edit Wikipedia, Wikipedia would

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Amir Ladsgroup
I'm a bot operator in Persian Wikipedia (~500K articles) and I'm directly or indirectly responsible for creating more than half of the articles in that Wiki using automated or semi-automated tools that I built. If our language used Latin alphabet, we definitely would be one of the five biggest

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Milos Rancic
I would consider this discussion as a sensible one if you are editors of Cebuano and Waray-Waray Wikipedias, oppose the idea of creating bot-generated articles and have better plan how to increase quality and quantity of those projects. Optionally, you are always free to offer your help to those

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Marco Chiesa
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 11:53 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, When people do not edit Wikipedia we are talking about a situation that does not exist. I wholeheartedly disagree with you as you mistake the process with the product. Our aim is to produce a product and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread
Gerard, an interesting statistic is that you have chosen to post 7 out of the 16 emails on this thread in under 2 hours. Perhaps you might benefit from considering what list subscribers are expecting and want filling their inboxes, before posting more? Thanks Fae ... mobile

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Joseph Fox
I think these wikis have been on that list for a while. I don't know the specifics of why they're there, though, or comment on the depth/quality of the articles on the wikis. Joe On Sun, 5 Jul 2015 at 22:32 Salvador A salvador1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi! I just I noticed that Cebuano and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, I would not say that the Encyclopaedia Britannica is NOT an encyclopaedia. The objective of Wikipedia is EXACTLY that it is read. Not that it is edited. You can argue all you like against bot generated articles but in the final analysis it is doing a much better job than not providing

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Anders Wennersten
The 1,2+ M articles on species generated by LsjBot from COL (CatalogueOfLife) was completed in September 2014. Now under way by Lsjbot is generation of geographic entities from GeoNames [1]. Still being in an early phase and there is a lot to look into like the links to Wikidata. A testrun

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Ilario Valdelli
https://war.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinaurog:ActiveUsers https://ceb.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espesyal:ActiveUsers An encyclopedia in the first 10 places without a community is it an encyclopedia? Is the community important to say that wikipedia is wikipedia? In this case these projects are demonstrating

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, While the quality of the articles is not something I care to discuss. The main thing of the many articles is that as a result of the existence of these articles, the number of readers of these languages has gone up and hte number of editors has gone up as well. Our aim is to share in the sum

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Ilario Valdelli
This is an example about how to produce a formal impact without a real impact. On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 7:31 AM, Salvador A salvador1...@gmail.com wrote: Hi! I just I noticed that Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedia are inside the list of the 10 Wikipedias with more articles.[1] It seems it

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, How do you know that there is no impact ? https://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesPageViewsMonthlyCombined.htm shows clearly how much Cebuano has grown considerably in page views. The same is true for Waray Waray. Compare it to languages with a similar number of speakers. Please explain how

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Ilario Valdelli
If people don't edit Wikipedia, Wikipedia would not exist. As I have said the IT tools to support community are welcome, the IT tools to populate a wikipedia like a population of a database should not be welcome in Wikipedia, they are more appropriated for Wikidata where the integration with

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Ilario Valdelli
Yes, my concern is not to populate articles with data, because it is normal. The recent approach of Wikidata to be connected with data repositories and to harvest data and to feed Wikidata is the best approach. My concern is connected with the old approach to have a local repository (probably

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread WereSpielChequers
These are fascinating experiments, I hope that the Waray-waray and Cebuano communities will at some point report back to the wider community as to how this worked out. My fear is that too fast a growth rate could overwhelm whatever community we have in those languages leading to burn out of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Peter Southwood
[mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Amir Ladsgroup Sent: 06 July 2015 11:49 AM To: Wikimedia Mailing List Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10 I'm a bot operator in Persian Wikipedia (~500K articles) and I'm directly or indirectly responsible

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Benjamin Lees
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 4:55 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: https://stats.wikimedia.org/EN/TablesPageViewsMonthlyCombined.htm shows clearly how much Cebuano has grown considerably in page views. It's a shame we don't have filtered page view data: it'd be good to know whether

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Ricordisamoa
Hoi, Why not to focus on that technology instead of bots? Then every Wikipedia could benefit from Lsjbot's sources, without polluting the article namespace but still providing information to readers and incentive to editors. That is EXACTLY what Reasonator and AutoDesc already do. Content

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Josh Lim
I can probably speak for those communities. On the whole, the logic behind the Lsjbot experiment was simple: build it and they will come. So far though, this hasn’t happened. We from the Tagalog Wikipedia were also approached for this experiment, but we know what happens when bot-generated

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Ricordisamoa
I don't think any bot is subscribed to this list. Il 07/07/2015 01:08, Richard Symonds ha scritto: Are there any Cebuano or Waray community members on the list to offer an opinion? On 6 Jul 2015 23:47, Ziko van Dijk zvand...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, I belong to the group of Josh and Ilario

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Asaf Bartov
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 4:08 PM, Richard Symonds richard.symo...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: Are there any Cebuano or Waray community members on the list to offer an opinion? There is no likely productive outcome of sharing more opinions on the bot issue, even by members of those communities.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Ziko van Dijk
Hello, I belong to the group of Josh and Ilario and others who have strong objections against the inundation of pseudo articles (one sentence-articles, bot creations based on database information etc.). The people who justify their bot creations make two wrong assumptions: a) about the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Richard Symonds
Are there any Cebuano or Waray community members on the list to offer an opinion? On 6 Jul 2015 23:47, Ziko van Dijk zvand...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, I belong to the group of Josh and Ilario and others who have strong objections against the inundation of pseudo articles (one

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Richard Symonds
Completely agree with you Asaf. I don't think it's up to us Wikimedia-l subscribers, but up to each specific community. We can learn from their decisions but are on difficult ground if we judge them for it. Your third paragraph was a bit complex for me to succinctly reword while agreeing with it,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Ilario Valdelli
On 07.07.2015 01:14, Asaf Bartov wrote: On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 4:08 PM, Richard Symonds richard.symo...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: Are there any Cebuano or Waray community members on the list to offer an opinion? 2. separate the top 10 issue that was the original trigger for this renewed

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Asaf Bartov
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 4:36 PM, Richard Symonds richard.symo...@wikimedia.org.uk wrote: it's a good starting point. But rather than a top list, perhaps we should be looking at number of editors/number of speakers? We (well, some of us, I guess), have indeed been looking at that figure (one

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Asaf Bartov
Indeed, as Josh points out, there are also costs (even if only perceived or reputational costs) to populating a tiny Wikipedia with next to no active editors with hundreds of thousands of bot-generated stubs. Is having stubs on all French communes in Cebuano better than having nothing in Cebuano?

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedias among Top 10

2015-07-06 Thread Ricordisamoa
Il 06/07/2015 07:31, Salvador A ha scritto: Hi! I just I noticed that Cebuano and Waray-waray Wikipedia are inside the list of the 10 Wikipedias with more articles.[1] Let's call them non-redirect pages in the main namespace containing the text '[[', please. It seems it happened during