Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

[Butch Evans]

On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Mark Koskenmaki wrote:


On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote:


1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of
Americans on the internet?


This is not really at issue.  At least it is not really of any
concern for us here.


Of course this is AT ISSUE.  Or do you exempt yourself from being a 
citizen and having any concern about intrusion into your life???


Not at all.  BUT, IT DOESN'T APPLY TO THIS LIST.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

[Mark Koskenmaki]

- Original Message - 
From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:04 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at
hand


> On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote:
>
> >1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of
> >Americans on the internet?
>
> This is not really at issue.  At least it is not really of any
> concern for us here.

WHAT???

Of course this is AT ISSUE.   Or do you exempt yourself from being a citizen
and having any concern about intrusion into your life???

That some of us happen to be part of the businesses in question is merely
incidental.   Our opinions as businessmen should reflect that issue as well.
Or is that too "redneck" these days?


North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-

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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

[Mark Koskenmaki]

Ummm... read the story carefully.    
The FBI and AG Gonzalez DO want content recorded.    People have 
proposed regulation... that is very unclear and imprecise about what is actually 
required.   
 
The problem is that the people involved in writing 
the laws are clueless about network operations and utterly unconcerned about 
the Constitution. 
 
 
 
 
North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061personal correspondence 
to:  mark at neofast dot netsales inquiries to:  purchasing at 
neofast dot netFast Internet, NO 
WIRES!-

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  David Sovereen 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 7:08 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent 
  about this?
  
  Many of you seem to be of the belief that the 
  proposed bill requires you to keep records of the content of 
  subscribers.  Simply put, that is NOT THE CASE.  While I do not 
  know the specific details of the various proposals, I do know that none of 
  them are expecting ISPs to keep copies of content accessed.
   
  The proposed bills are requiring that ISPs 
  keep track of what subscriber used what IP address(es).  One version of 
  the bill wants this data retained for one year; another version for two 
  years.  For ISPs using RADIUS for accounting or making static IP 
  assignments, this is pretty easy to do.  I 
  don't know what requirements, if any, are being proposed for subscribers 
  placed behind a NAT firewall shared by many subscribers.
   
  I understand that WISPA is an organization still 
  in its infancy, and they don't currently have the resources to "lobby" 
  congress.  But there IS an organization speaking to congress on your 
  bahalf on this issue: The United States Internet Industry 
  Association.
   
  As a former member of the board of directors, I 
  can assure you that this is a small, but vocal organization, and they are 
  representing YOUR interests.  Data retention requirements have been on 
  USIIA's radar for quite some time.  On Feburary 17, 2005 (last year) the 
  board of directors adopted this policy as USIIA's official position on data 
  retention: http://www.usiia.org/legis/dataret.html
   
  If you'd like to support an organization 
  that does speak to congress and is representing your interests, you might 
  consider giving USIIA your financial.  For the record, their board 
  receives no compensation.  The only paid employee is David McClure, their 
  full-time President and CEO (and "lobbyist", but he doesn't go by that 
  title).
   
  Dave
   
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Pete Davis 

To: WISPA General List ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 2:34 
PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent 
about this?
If/when the feds require it, I guess the way to do it would 
be to run Ethereal in fully promiscuous mode on a mirrored port on a switch 
and streaming it to server over the FBI's T1 to their server. When the 
Federal government installs their T1 to my NOC, I would be willing to upload 
it to them over their network resources to their server for them to to keep 
on file for 2 years to never look at, otherwise, I don't have any way to 
insure that the data hasn't been tampered with if it stays in my file room. 
The government requiring me to keep two years records of all network traffic 
seems unreasonable. If I were a defense attorney defending a client whose 
evidence against him was stored by some local ISP dinks on their servers for 
24 months, I would certainly question the chain of the evidence, and likely 
get it thrown out.Here is an example of how this could go wrong: If 
I am an ISP operator (I am actually) and I have a vendetta against a client 
(I don't, or at least not one I want to discuss here) and I am in charge of 
keeping network logs of all of that client's traffic, I could easily forge 
the records to make it look like he had committed a horrific crime, like 
reproducing the transcript of the commentary of a game without the express 
written consent of Major League Baseball, and make it look like it came from 
his IP address. I don't know how that record, 24 months old, and sitting in 
my tape locker could ever be held as compelling evidence against him, unless 
there was already an investigation, where these records still probably 
couldn't make or break a case.I suppose that the thinking is, that 
if the subscriber is guilty of child porn, and they can prove what site he 
downloaded from and sent it to, they could go after that web host for 
hosting the smut. Either way, putting it off to the local ISP to keep 
records seems far fetched. Pete DavisNoDial.netMac 
Dearman wrote: 
You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to log
your HTTP & SMTP traffic?

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

[John J. Thomas]

I think the general thinking is that WISP's shouldn't have to pay to make the 
Governments' job easier...

John 


>-Original Message-
>From: Sam Tetherow [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Monday, June 5, 2006 11:29 AM
>To: 'WISPA General List'
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand
>
>I want to preface this email with the statement that I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT 
>support this law, it is an invasion of privacy and places an undue 
>burden of responsibility on an ISP.
>
>Now that being said, as I read the article, and as some have pointed out 
>the information being requested for archive is merely websites visited 
>and email address sent to. This information is trivial to gather and 
>really not that burdensome to archive. I currently run about 4Mbps-5Mbps 
>of traffic from 8am to midnight and a months worth of these logs 
>uncompressed only takes up about 7G of space. Compression will save me 
>60% of that so it is more like 3G for a month of 4-5Mbps. This fits 
>nicely on a single DVD-R for achiving once a month. Even scaling this up 
>to 30X the traffic for a DVD/day gets you 120-150Mbps daily average traffic.
>
>Your total cost on something like this would be
>1. a Mikrotik box (or any router that supports the netflow protocol) to 
>sit right before your edge router (or as your edge router).
>2. A PC to capture the data with a DVD+-R drive total cost < $500.
>3. And then a spindle of DVD media at ~ $15/100 DVDs.
>
>This puts the grand total in at well under $2000 one time cost and then 
>whatever personnel cost you want to assign to burning a DVD once a 
>month, or if you are lucky enough to have enough customers to require 
>120Mbps, once a day.
>
>I think it is important if we are going to draft something up to address 
>this issue that we address it with facts. For most ISPs coming up with 
>the money to achieve this while a PITA is not going to cause the 
>business to go bankrupt. I achieved this using equipment I already have 
>in place. My DS3 MT router sends the netflow data to the box I use for 
>system/network monitoring. I currently do not archive this data to DVD 
>because I have only been collecting it for a month, but I highly doubt I 
>will unless required to by law. The only reason I collect this data is 
>for IP accounting and troubleshooting and will probably keep no more 
>than a month or two of the full data. But it sure comes in handy when a 
>customer calls up and says that they haven't had internet for the past 2 
>weeks and I can pull up the charts that show they have. Or they say that 
>things have been running real slow lately and I can look at the flow 
>data and see that their kids have been using P2P applications or doing 
>large FTP downloads.
>
>Sam Tetherow
>Sandhills Wireless
>
>Butch Evans wrote:
>> On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote:
>>
>>> 1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans 
>>> on the internet?
>>
>> This is not really at issue. At least it is not really of any concern 
>> for us here.
>>
>>> 2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of 
>>> gathering this information or should the burden be carried by the 
>>> feds themselves with little or no cost to the ISP?
>>
>> THIS is the real issue that ISPs face. The problem that we all have 
>> with this is multifaceted. First, (and perhaps most importantly) is 
>> the cost that many ISPs will face to comply with the requirements. In 
>> many cases, this cost will be both direct (for hardware) and indirect 
>> (network reconfiguration). Also, many ISPs are set up in such a way 
>> that compliance will be nearly impossible. Let me provide just a 
>> couple examples.
>>
>> First, many ISPs use private IP space internally for their customers. 
>> For these ISPs, any monitoring done by an outside entity (i.e. AT&T) 
>> will be completely useless.
>>
>> Another example, would be the many ISPs that have several diverse 
>> networks. I have several customers that have 3 or 4 distinct networks 
>> (one has 8). These ISPs would be required to store this data in either 
>> one location, or purchase the equipment for each network.
>>
>> It is my belief that WISPA should create a stance against any 
>> requirement for WISPs to store customer traffic patterns for any 
>> period. The very idea is hideously un-American in the first place. Be 
>> that as it may, it is technically difficult, and financially unfair 
>> for many smaller ISPs to have to store this information at all.
>>
>>> This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government 
>>> to know our every move. This is a political discussion that can not 
>>> and should not be decided by an ISP, but rather the entire country. 
>>> We don't have any jurisdiction on issues such as this.
>>
>> George, this is one area where we disagree. This is NOT a "political 
>> discussion". This is an issue that directly impacts every ISP 
>> (wireless or wired). It is, perhaps, true that 

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

[Peter R.]

There are still things that can be learned for our Canadian members.
Perhaps some of the Canadian members can form a committee to watch 
regulatory, legislative, and politics in Canada.
There are parallels between the US & Canada and they should be taken 
advantage of.


- Peter

Carl A Jeptha wrote:

last time I thought Wispa was international and if it is not I may as 
well cancel my membership.


It does appear that USA Politics and legislation has been on the 
forefront alot. Just asking??


You have a Good Day now,


Carl A Jeptha
http://www.airnet.ca
office 905 349-2084
Emergency only Pager 905 377-6900
skype cajeptha
 


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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

[Carl A Jeptha]

last time I thought Wispa was international and if it is not I may as
well cancel my membership.

It does appear that USA Politics and legislation has been on the
forefront alot. Just asking??
You have a Good Day now,


Carl A Jeptha
http://www.airnet.ca
office 905 349-2084
Emergency only Pager 905 377-6900
skype cajeptha



David Sovereen wrote:

  I've only been on the list for about four weeks.  I learned about it at the
Mikrotik User Meeting in Dallas from a few of the other attendees.

Since I've been on, there hasn't been any discussion of what WISPA is doing
on the legislative front.  If all of the good stuff is hiding in the members
only area, and you don't tell people about the good stuff hiding in there on
your public web site, how are enticing people to join?  If you want people's
money, you need to market to them.

I finally made it through the USIIA Bulletin.  According to them, the data
retention bill isn't likely to be passed.  Quote, "The reality is that such
legislation would never pass the Congress, and that the DOJ will likely back
down from the issue in the face of public criticism and concerns."  If that
weren't the case, I'd probably get a USIIA Alert asking me to e-mail my
congresspeople.  I feel this type of information is valuable.

Dave

989-837-3790 x 151
989-837-3780 fax

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.mercury.net

129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
- Original Message - 
From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


  
  
You just need to pay attention here and on the private list.

It would be nice if someone had the time to work on the web site more.  So
that everyone would know what we're going right now!  But those of us
working are too busy doing and have no time for bragging about it.  grin

Watch and learn Dave.  One thing I'm very proud of is that WISPA has never
hid anything that it does.  We are the most open group I've ever been
around.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: "David Sovereen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?




  Where can I find out what WISPA's official positions are?  Where can I
  

  
  see
  
  

  the letters and actions WISPA has sent on behalf of its members?  The
  

  
  root
  
  

  of my questions is, "How do I know that the money I spend is making a
difference?"

I've joined organizations before.  I send them my check or give them a
credit card number and never hear from them again... until they want
  

  
  more
  
  

  money.  I don't support my local Chamber of Commerce for this exact
reason.
What does my local Chamber of Commerce do to deserve my money?  After a
year, I didn't know, so I cancelled my membership.

Dave

989-837-3790 x 151
989-837-3780 fax

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.mercury.net

129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
- Original Message - 
From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


  
  
I'm really at a bit of a loss as to how to deal with your question

  

  
  David.
  
  

  
What's a trade association do for you?  (You being generic here)

  

  
  The
  
  

  
idea that the question was asked indicates to me that one doesn't

  
  understand
  
  
what a trade group is for.

It's not, at least not at first, there to put money in your pocket.

  

  
  Nor
  
  

  is
  
  
it there to help you control your costs.  Oh sure, most of those things

  
  can
  
  
and will happen at some point.  But it takes time, people and money to

  
  make
  
  
any of that happen.

At this stage WISPA is there to protect our industry  If you don't
support WISPA we'll not be able to have any voice at all at the FCC or

  

  
  in
  
  

  
congress.  Especially the FCC.

You see, we talked to folks at the FCC before we set WISPA up.  They

  

  
  made
  
  

  it
  
  
clear that they'd much rather deal with a trade org. than many

  
  individuals.
  
  
Seems that they don't want to deal with the petty differences of

  

  
  opinion
  
  

  
   

Re: [WISPA] Double Ping Replies

[Jack Unger]

Scott,

RADIOMOBILE PLOT - The Radio Mobile plot FROM your midpoint CPE back to 
your DLB1300 AP was very helpful and shows a fade margin of 10.7 dB 
which should be enough to provide reliable performance in the upstream 
direction, assuming that the noise level is low (below the receiver 
threshold) at the near-end DLB1300.


DOWNSTREAM FADE MARGIN - What's the fade margin in the downstream 
direction from the DLB1300 TO the midpoint CPE? The fade margin will 
only be the same as the upstream fade margin if the DLB1300 transmitter 
power output is as high or higher than the CPE transmitter power output 
AND if the midpoint CM9 receiver sensitivity (threshold) is as good as 
the DLB1300 receiver threshold. Can you do a Radio Mobile plot in the 
downstream direction to verify that the downstream fade margin is at 
least 10 dB?


ADDITIONAL TESTING - Do you still get double pings if you ping from the 
first (near end) AP to the midpoint CM9 radio? Do you get double pings 
if you ping from the near-end DLB1300 AP to the second (midpoint) AP?


PROBLEM HISTORY - What's the history of the problem? Was the system 
working well for a certain period of time and THEN did it start slowing 
down or is this a newly-installed link that has not yet been proven to 
deliver full throughput and reliable performance in both directions?

If the system worked well for a while and then deteriorated, I'd look for:

a) A hardware problem, or

b) An antenna alignment problem, or

c) A high-noise level problem (the noise increased recently), or

d) Water intrusion, or

e) Some combination of a, b, c, or d.

On the other hand, if the system is newly-installed and is not working 
(and has never worked) the way you expected it to, the problem can still 
be caused by a, b, c, d, or e (above) but it can also be something at 
the wired Ethernet level or at the software configuration level.



FINAL QUESTIONS

1. Are you absolutely sure that the customer's antenna is high enough to 
have a wireless LOS path (including an unobstructed Fresnel Zone) back 
to the mid-point AP? Is it possible that the 2-mile link is shooting 
through too many treetops?


2. What is the "normal" ping time range?

3. How large are your ping packets?

4. What hardware is located between the midpoint CPE and the midpoint 
AP?



NEXT STEP - I think that the ping test results that you obtain when you 
ping from the near-end AP to the midpoint CPE and then from the near-end 
AP to the midpoint AP should be helpful in further isolating the problem.


jack






Scott Reed wrote:

This is an 802.11b hop link. It goes 9.4 miles from a DLB1300 AP with 
120* 14dBi sector to a 24dBi Grid on an CM9 in a RB230. From there it is 
2.0 miles to the customer. The AP has a 90* 9dBi (I think) on a CM9. 
Customer is a 15dBi grid to an SB Outdoor radio.


Does the 9.4 mile link constitute a "long link?" It appears the double 
ping replies are only if I ping from the first AP through the other to 
the client. Pinging from the clients near AP doesn't get the double 
replies.


RadioMobile plot of link attached.

Scott Reed
Owner
NewWays
Wireless Networking
Network Design, Installation and Administration
www.nwwnet.net 


-- Original Message ---
From: Jack Unger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: WISPA General List 
Sent: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 15:31:06 -0700
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Double Ping Replies

 > Scott,
 >
 > Excessive pings is often a symptom of a poor wireless link. I would
 > check to be sure that:
 >
 > a) The customer's antenna is high enough to provide a good signal back
 > to the access point
 >
 > b) The link is not overly long
 >
 > c) There is no hardware problem in their antenna system or radio.
 >
 > jack
 >
 > Scott Reed wrote:
 > > I had a customer call to say there connection had not been working 
well

 > > today. I started to see what is going on by ping the radio. I get 2
 > > replies for almost every ping. Average was about 1 at 45ms and one at
 > > 56ms. The times are longer than normal, but my question is, how do I
 > > get 2 reponses to a ping? No duplicate addresses, I checked.
 > > The other way I know there were 2 pings is one of the MTs that is
 > > between me and the customer showed 2 times the download as upload 
speed

 > > in torch, and I was the only one talking to that radio.
 > > Suggestions on what I need to look for?
 > >
 > > Scott Reed
 > > Owner
 > > NewWays
 > > Wireless Networking
 > > Network Design, Installation and Administration
 > > www.nwwnet.net  
 > >
 >
 > --
 > Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
 > Serving the License-Free Wireless Industry Since 1993
 > Author of the WISP Handbook - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs"
 > True Vendor-Neutral WISP Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting
 > Our next WISP Workshop is June 21-22 in Atlanta, GA.
 > Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220 www.ask-wi.com 

[WISPA] PCMCIA 5.3 cards

[Tom DeReggi]

What options are out there for low lost PCMCIA cards that operate in 5.3Ghz 
range and/or combo 5.3G-5.8G range, that also have an external antenna jack 
on them?


Is the SuperRange PCMCIA 100w A/ 300watt B unit the option of choice?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband

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RE: [WISPA] FM Remote Broadcast over Wireless (RBOW ?)

[Rick Harnish]

We have a radio station streaming from mutually collocated tower across our
backhaul.  The backhaul is running Star-OS on War Boards.  We had a few
issues when they were streaming direct from the tower to their clients.
They now send one stream to an offsite server which then serves their
clients from a more stable connection.  I assume it is in a datacenter on
fiber.  They blocked access to the collocated streamer from all IP's except
the server address.  This way they are only running one stream instead of
dozens.  It is an AM station.  You can listen to it at http://www.wadm.com/.
Enjoy if you like country music.   

Rick Harnish
President
OnlyInternet Broadband & Wireless, Inc.
260-827-2482 Office
260-307-4000 Cell
260-918-4340 VoIP
www.oibw.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 6:52 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] FM Remote Broadcast over Wireless (RBOW ?)

The radio station that I get space from was ready to do that from one of the

DJ's houses in my coverage area.

I agree with your thoughts below.  The tough part for me (and why I 
eventually talked them out of the idea) is that our noise levels and 
competition competence levels are not conducive to perfect service in the 
area in question.

But sure, it should work just fine as long as all other parameters normally 
stay normal!
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 9:30 AM
Subject: [WISPA] FM Remote Broadcast over Wireless (RBOW ?)


> I've been asked if an FM broadcast station can broadcast from a "remote" 
> (non-studio) location by putting the audio over an existing license-free 
> wireless network to connect back to the main studio. On the surface of it,

> I don't see why this wouldn't work as long as:
>
> 1. The wireless network is reliable, and
> 2. The remote FM audio stream can be converted to a half-duplex stream of 
> Ethernet packets.
>
> Does anyone know of someone who has done this successfully and, if so, 
> what equipment was used on both the audio and RF networ?
>
> Thanks in advance,
>jack
>
> -- 
> Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
> Serving the License-Free Wireless Industry Since 1993
> Author of the WISP Handbook - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs"
> True Vendor-Neutral WISP Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting
> Our next WISP Workshop is June 21-22 in Atlanta, GA.
> Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220  www.ask-wi.com
>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 

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Re: [WISPA] FM Remote Broadcast over Wireless (RBOW ?)

[Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181]

The radio station that I get space from was ready to do that from one of the 
DJ's houses in my coverage area.


I agree with your thoughts below.  The tough part for me (and why I 
eventually talked them out of the idea) is that our noise levels and 
competition competence levels are not conducive to perfect service in the 
area in question.


But sure, it should work just fine as long as all other parameters normally 
stay normal!

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 9:30 AM
Subject: [WISPA] FM Remote Broadcast over Wireless (RBOW ?)


I've been asked if an FM broadcast station can broadcast from a "remote" 
(non-studio) location by putting the audio over an existing license-free 
wireless network to connect back to the main studio. On the surface of it, 
I don't see why this wouldn't work as long as:


1. The wireless network is reliable, and
2. The remote FM audio stream can be converted to a half-duplex stream of 
Ethernet packets.


Does anyone know of someone who has done this successfully and, if so, 
what equipment was used on both the audio and RF networks?


Thanks in advance,
   jack

--
Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
Serving the License-Free Wireless Industry Since 1993
Author of the WISP Handbook - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs"
True Vendor-Neutral WISP Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting
Our next WISP Workshop is June 21-22 in Atlanta, GA.
Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220  www.ask-wi.com





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Re: [WISPA] Double Ping Replies

[Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181]

I've seen that with the really old 2 meg 
Teletronics ap's.  It was a timing issue on a really long link.  And 
was unique to a firm ware version or two.
 
What would happen was that the radio would send out 
the ping, not get a reply soon enough and send out a second one.  Then it 
would get both back.
 
I've also heard of multipath causing something like 
that, only one goes out but two come back.
 
Both of these scenarios can (and did) cause really 
strange performance issues.
 
laters,
Marlon(509) 
982-2181   
Equipment sales(408) 907-6910 
(Vonage)    
Consulting services42846865 
(icq)    
And I run my own wisp!64.146.146.12 (net meeting)www.odessaoffice.com/wirelesswww.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
 
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Scott Reed 
  To: wireless@wispa.org 
  Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 2:43 PM
  Subject: [WISPA] Double Ping 
Replies
  I had a customer call to say there connection had 
  not been working well today.  I started to see what is going on by ping 
  the radio.  I get 2 replies for almost every ping.  Average was 
  about 1 at 45ms and one at 56ms.  The times are longer than normal, but 
  my question is, how do I get 2 reponses to a ping?  No duplicate 
  addresses, I checked. The other way I know there were 2 pings is one of 
  the MTs that is between me and the customer showed 2 times the download as 
  upload speed in torch, and I was the only one talking to that radio. 
  Suggestions on what I need to look for? Scott Reed Owner 
  NewWays Wireless Networking Network Design, Installation and 
  Administration www.nwwnet.net 
  
  

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Re: [WISPA] Double Ping Replies

[Jack Unger]

Scott,

Excessive pings is often a symptom of a poor wireless link. I would 
check to be sure that:


a) The customer's antenna is high enough to provide a good signal back 
to the access point


b) The link is not overly long

c) There is no hardware problem in their antenna system or radio.


jack


Scott Reed wrote:
I had a customer call to say there connection had not been working well 
today.  I started to see what is going on by ping the radio.  I get 2 
replies for almost every ping.  Average was about 1 at 45ms and one at 
56ms.  The times are longer than normal, but my question is, how do I 
get 2 reponses to a ping?  No duplicate addresses, I checked.
The other way I know there were 2 pings is one of the MTs that is 
between me and the customer showed 2 times the download as upload speed 
in torch, and I was the only one talking to that radio.

Suggestions on what I need to look for?

Scott Reed
Owner
NewWays
Wireless Networking
Network Design, Installation and Administration
www.nwwnet.net 



--
Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
Serving the License-Free Wireless Industry Since 1993
Author of the WISP Handbook - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs"
True Vendor-Neutral WISP Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting
Our next WISP Workshop is June 21-22 in Atlanta, GA.
Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220  www.ask-wi.com




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[WISPA] Double Ping Replies

[Scott Reed]

I had a customer call to say there connection had not been working well today.  I started to see what is going on by ping the radio.  I get 2 replies for almost every ping.  Average was about 1 at 45ms and one at 56ms.  The times are longer than normal, but my question is, how do I get 2 reponses to a ping?  No duplicate addresses, I checked.
The other way I know there were 2 pings is one of the MTs that is between me and the customer showed 2 times the download as upload speed in torch, and I was the only one talking to that radio.
Suggestions on what I need to look for?

Scott Reed 


Owner 


NewWays 


Wireless Networking 


Network Design, Installation and Administration 


www.nwwnet.net 








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Re: [WISPA] This is HUGE!

[Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181]

Hi John,
 
Where are you at on this?  Did we ever get a 
press release sent out?
 
laters,
Marlon(509) 
982-2181   
Equipment sales(408) 907-6910 
(Vonage)    
Consulting services42846865 
(icq)    
And I run my own wisp!64.146.146.12 (net meeting)www.odessaoffice.com/wirelesswww.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
 
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  John Scrivner 
  
  To: wireless@wispa.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 9:35 AM
  Subject: [WISPA] This is HUGE!
  Check this out from the Pew report. It appears that fixed 
  wireless is much bigger than what even I thought. According to this report 8% 
  of all broadband connections in the US are delivered via fixed broadband 
  wireless. That means you guys! Woo Hoo!Scriv
  
  

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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

[Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181]

- Original Message - 
From: "David Sovereen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 12:01 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


I've only been on the list for about four weeks.  I learned about it at 
the

Mikrotik User Meeting in Dallas from a few of the other attendees.

Since I've been on, there hasn't been any discussion of what WISPA is 
doing
on the legislative front.  If all of the good stuff is hiding in the 
members
only area, and you don't tell people about the good stuff hiding in there 
on
your public web site, how are enticing people to join?  If you want 
people's

money, you need to market to them.


If you've been here for 4 weeks and haven't seen any talk about the l-mds 
(???) 900mhz spectrum grab, USF fund reform, or TV Whitespaces issues you've 
not been paying close enough attention!


We'd love to have someone put our a news letter for us.  Are you 
volunteering?  Lord knows the FCC group here is rarely stationary!


marlon


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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

[George Rogato]

David Sovereen wrote:

Where can I find out what WISPA's official positions are?  Where can I see
the letters and actions WISPA has sent on behalf of its members?  The root
of my questions is, "How do I know that the money I spend is making a
difference?"

I've joined organizations before.  I send them my check or give them a
credit card number and never hear from them again... until they want more
money.  I don't support my local Chamber of Commerce for this exact reason.
What does my local Chamber of Commerce do to deserve my money?  After a
year, I didn't know, so I cancelled my membership.

Dave


Hi David, you are right, wispa should be doing a better job bringing the 
membership and the industry as well up to date.
The problem as I see it is that there is so much to do and so little 
time and help.


We need more volunteers.

A newsletter would do the trick. Now if we could have someone step 
forward and take on this responsibility, we could get that done.

It's a good opportunity for someone to  express themselves and to help out.

Up until recently the primary focus of WISPA has been the FCC issues. 
Marlon, Scriv, Matt, and Rick have been working as much as they can on 
that front.


I can tell you that wispa has created a promotional and marketing 
committee. Tom and myself have just recently taken up the task of 
working on the promo committee along with a few other members.


Some of the things we have discussed is how do we keep our membership 
updated on what is going on in wispa and who is doing what and what our 
accomplishments are. The newsletter was one of the goals we have hope to 
accomplish as well as an updated web site.
Matt Larsen has developed a new web site for wispa and we should be 
seeing that sometime in the near future.


One idea that came out was work groups or other committees made up of 
the members who feel they have something to contribute or an agenda they 
would like to push forward.


We welcome any of our wisps, principle members or not to take advantage 
and to contribute.


I'm sure in the near future you guys will be seeing results.

But like I've been saying on this list.
The more people who contribute the more than can be accomplished.

I've been on the wireless lists since the day the first one was started 
and I can tell you that among our ranks of wisps there are some very 
very talented people who could contribute a considerable effort in 
helping our industry.


I also realize that time is so valuable and in short supply for just 
about everyone. There are no ill feelings towards anyone who haven't 
taken the time or don't have the time to contribute.

I would just like to get more of us involved. The sooner the better.

Thanks

George

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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

[David Sovereen]

I've only been on the list for about four weeks.  I learned about it at the
Mikrotik User Meeting in Dallas from a few of the other attendees.

Since I've been on, there hasn't been any discussion of what WISPA is doing
on the legislative front.  If all of the good stuff is hiding in the members
only area, and you don't tell people about the good stuff hiding in there on
your public web site, how are enticing people to join?  If you want people's
money, you need to market to them.

I finally made it through the USIIA Bulletin.  According to them, the data
retention bill isn't likely to be passed.  Quote, "The reality is that such
legislation would never pass the Congress, and that the DOJ will likely back
down from the issue in the face of public criticism and concerns."  If that
weren't the case, I'd probably get a USIIA Alert asking me to e-mail my
congresspeople.  I feel this type of information is valuable.

Dave

989-837-3790 x 151
989-837-3780 fax

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.mercury.net

129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
- Original Message - 
From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


> You just need to pay attention here and on the private list.
>
> It would be nice if someone had the time to work on the web site more.  So
> that everyone would know what we're going right now!  But those of us
> working are too busy doing and have no time for bragging about it.  grin
>
> Watch and learn Dave.  One thing I'm very proud of is that WISPA has never
> hid anything that it does.  We are the most open group I've ever been
> around.
>
> Marlon
> (509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
> (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
> 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
> 64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
> www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
> www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
>
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "David Sovereen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 10:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
>
>
> > Where can I find out what WISPA's official positions are?  Where can I
see
> > the letters and actions WISPA has sent on behalf of its members?  The
root
> > of my questions is, "How do I know that the money I spend is making a
> > difference?"
> >
> > I've joined organizations before.  I send them my check or give them a
> > credit card number and never hear from them again... until they want
more
> > money.  I don't support my local Chamber of Commerce for this exact
> > reason.
> > What does my local Chamber of Commerce do to deserve my money?  After a
> > year, I didn't know, so I cancelled my membership.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > 989-837-3790 x 151
> > 989-837-3780 fax
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > www.mercury.net
> >
> > 129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
> > - Original Message - 
> > From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "WISPA General List" 
> > Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 1:33 PM
> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
> >
> >
> >> I'm really at a bit of a loss as to how to deal with your question
David.
> >>
> >> What's a trade association do for you?  (You being generic here)
The
> >> idea that the question was asked indicates to me that one doesn't
> > understand
> >> what a trade group is for.
> >>
> >> It's not, at least not at first, there to put money in your pocket.
Nor
> > is
> >> it there to help you control your costs.  Oh sure, most of those things
> > can
> >> and will happen at some point.  But it takes time, people and money to
> > make
> >> any of that happen.
> >>
> >> At this stage WISPA is there to protect our industry  If you don't
> >> support WISPA we'll not be able to have any voice at all at the FCC or
in
> >> congress.  Especially the FCC.
> >>
> >> You see, we talked to folks at the FCC before we set WISPA up.  They
made
> > it
> >> clear that they'd much rather deal with a trade org. than many
> > individuals.
> >> Seems that they don't want to deal with the petty differences of
opinion
> >> either!  They want a stand all hashed out before it gets to them
wherever
> >> that's possible.
> >>
> >> No one should, at this stage of the game, be asking what WISPA will do
> >> for
> >> them.  You should all be asking what you can do for WISPA.
> >>
> >> Dialup ISPs took it in the shorts far more often than they ever should
> > have.
> >> I'm in no mood to put up with that with wireless too.  It's mostly a
> > safety
> >> in numbers thing.
> >>
> >> We deliberately made the dues so low that there's NO reason people
can't
> >> join.  Heck, on principal alone people should be flocking to us.
> >>
> >> If you are one of those frustrated that WISPA isn't doing enough, join
> >> the
> >> club.  We're all frustrated about that.  But just how many more

Re: [WISPA] Join WISPA?

[Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181]

You are correct.  The Principal members list is only for principal members.

You have access to most any other list you'd care to participate on though.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: "Brian Webster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 11:31 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Join WISPA?



Butch,
I was told as an associate member I could not be a member of the members
only list. Let me know if you hear different.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com 


-Original Message-
From: Butch Evans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 2:14 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Join WISPA?


On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:


There is a members only list that is much more structured and isn't
open to just anyone


Is that list open only to Principal members?  I am only an associate
member.  Do I qualify for that list?  Inquiring minds...

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

[Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181]

You just need to pay attention here and on the private list.

It would be nice if someone had the time to work on the web site more.  So 
that everyone would know what we're going right now!  But those of us 
working are too busy doing and have no time for bragging about it.  grin


Watch and learn Dave.  One thing I'm very proud of is that WISPA has never 
hid anything that it does.  We are the most open group I've ever been 
around.


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: "David Sovereen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 10:58 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?



Where can I find out what WISPA's official positions are?  Where can I see
the letters and actions WISPA has sent on behalf of its members?  The root
of my questions is, "How do I know that the money I spend is making a
difference?"

I've joined organizations before.  I send them my check or give them a
credit card number and never hear from them again... until they want more
money.  I don't support my local Chamber of Commerce for this exact 
reason.

What does my local Chamber of Commerce do to deserve my money?  After a
year, I didn't know, so I cancelled my membership.

Dave

989-837-3790 x 151
989-837-3780 fax

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.mercury.net

129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
- Original Message - 
From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?



I'm really at a bit of a loss as to how to deal with your question David.

What's a trade association do for you?  (You being generic here)  The
idea that the question was asked indicates to me that one doesn't

understand

what a trade group is for.

It's not, at least not at first, there to put money in your pocket.  Nor

is

it there to help you control your costs.  Oh sure, most of those things

can

and will happen at some point.  But it takes time, people and money to

make

any of that happen.

At this stage WISPA is there to protect our industry  If you don't
support WISPA we'll not be able to have any voice at all at the FCC or in
congress.  Especially the FCC.

You see, we talked to folks at the FCC before we set WISPA up.  They made

it

clear that they'd much rather deal with a trade org. than many

individuals.

Seems that they don't want to deal with the petty differences of opinion
either!  They want a stand all hashed out before it gets to them wherever
that's possible.

No one should, at this stage of the game, be asking what WISPA will do 
for

them.  You should all be asking what you can do for WISPA.

Dialup ISPs took it in the shorts far more often than they ever should

have.

I'm in no mood to put up with that with wireless too.  It's mostly a

safety

in numbers thing.

We deliberately made the dues so low that there's NO reason people can't
join.  Heck, on principal alone people should be flocking to us.

If you are one of those frustrated that WISPA isn't doing enough, join 
the

club.  We're all frustrated about that.  But just how many more hundreds
(thousands) of hours should I have to take away from my business and

my

family when others won't lift a finger?  How does the saying go?  United

we
stand, divided we fall.  Are those who haven't joined uniters or 
dividers?


That help?
marlon

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: "David Sovereen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


>I agree with your sentiments completely.
>
> One needs to ask, though, "why aren't ISPs supporting WISPA?"  The

answer

> is
> more than likely the same answer most small businesses give when asked

why

> they don't join industry associations: it's not worthwhile... it costs
> more
> money than the benefits of membership are worth.
>
> My company is not a member of WISPA.  And at this point, I don't see

what

> benefit membership in WISPA would give me.  I'm a believer in the

strength

> of numbers and joining ranks for greater good.  That's why I support

NFIB

> and USIIA, as well as local organizations in my state and community.
>
> Why should I send $250 to WISPA?
>
> Dave
>
> 989-837-3790 x 151
> 989-837-3780 fax
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.mercury.net
>
> 129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48

RE: [WISPA] Join WISPA?

[Brian Webster]

Butch,
I was told as an associate member I could not be a member of the members
only list. Let me know if you hear different.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com 


-Original Message-
From: Butch Evans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 2:14 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Join WISPA?


On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

>There is a members only list that is much more structured and isn't
>open to just anyone

Is that list open only to Principal members?  I am only an associate
member.  Do I qualify for that list?  Inquiring minds...

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this? 2 diferent issues at hand

[Sam Tetherow]

I want to preface this email with the statement that I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT 
support this law, it is an invasion of privacy and places an undue 
burden of responsibility on an ISP.


Now that being said, as I read the article, and as some have pointed out 
the information being requested for archive is merely websites visited 
and email address sent to. This information is trivial to gather and 
really not that burdensome to archive. I currently run about 4Mbps-5Mbps 
of traffic from 8am to midnight and a months worth of these logs 
uncompressed only takes up about 7G of space. Compression will save me 
60% of that so it is more like 3G for a month of 4-5Mbps. This fits 
nicely on a single DVD-R for achiving once a month. Even scaling this up 
to 30X the traffic for a DVD/day gets you 120-150Mbps daily average traffic.


Your total cost on something like this would be
1. a Mikrotik box (or any router that supports the netflow protocol) to 
sit right before your edge router (or as your edge router).

2. A PC to capture the data with a DVD+-R drive total cost < $500.
3. And then a spindle of DVD media at ~ $15/100 DVDs.

This puts the grand total in at well under $2000 one time cost and then 
whatever personnel cost you want to assign to burning a DVD once a 
month, or if you are lucky enough to have enough customers to require 
120Mbps, once a day.


I think it is important if we are going to draft something up to address 
this issue that we address it with facts. For most ISPs coming up with 
the money to achieve this while a PITA is not going to cause the 
business to go bankrupt. I achieved this using equipment I already have 
in place. My DS3 MT router sends the netflow data to the box I use for 
system/network monitoring. I currently do not archive this data to DVD 
because I have only been collecting it for a month, but I highly doubt I 
will unless required to by law. The only reason I collect this data is 
for IP accounting and troubleshooting and will probably keep no more 
than a month or two of the full data. But it sure comes in handy when a 
customer calls up and says that they haven't had internet for the past 2 
weeks and I can pull up the charts that show they have. Or they say that 
things have been running real slow lately and I can look at the flow 
data and see that their kids have been using P2P applications or doing 
large FTP downloads.


Sam Tetherow
Sandhills Wireless

Butch Evans wrote:

On Sun, 4 Jun 2006, George Rogato wrote:

1) Does the government have a right to know the actions of Americans 
on the internet?


This is not really at issue. At least it is not really of any concern 
for us here.


2) Is this a responsibility of the ISP to bear the burden of 
gathering this information or should the burden be carried by the 
feds themselves with little or no cost to the ISP?


THIS is the real issue that ISPs face. The problem that we all have 
with this is multifaceted. First, (and perhaps most importantly) is 
the cost that many ISPs will face to comply with the requirements. In 
many cases, this cost will be both direct (for hardware) and indirect 
(network reconfiguration). Also, many ISPs are set up in such a way 
that compliance will be nearly impossible. Let me provide just a 
couple examples.


First, many ISPs use private IP space internally for their customers. 
For these ISPs, any monitoring done by an outside entity (i.e. AT&T) 
will be completely useless.


Another example, would be the many ISPs that have several diverse 
networks. I have several customers that have 3 or 4 distinct networks 
(one has 8). These ISPs would be required to store this data in either 
one location, or purchase the equipment for each network.


It is my belief that WISPA should create a stance against any 
requirement for WISPs to store customer traffic patterns for any 
period. The very idea is hideously un-American in the first place. Be 
that as it may, it is technically difficult, and financially unfair 
for many smaller ISPs to have to store this information at all.


This thread started out as we should not be allowing the government 
to know our every move. This is a political discussion that can not 
and should not be decided by an ISP, but rather the entire country. 
We don't have any jurisdiction on issues such as this.


George, this is one area where we disagree. This is NOT a "political 
discussion". This is an issue that directly impacts every ISP 
(wireless or wired). It is, perhaps, true that the political 
implications are what Mark was driving at, but the issue at hand is 
NOT political in nature. It IS financial and technical.


We do however have a right to contest who is responsible for the 
burden of gathering this information.


OK. If that is the case, wouldn't you agree that this is something 
that SHOULD be addressed by WISPA? I don't agree with much that Mark 
had to say (really, it was the "implications" he made that I disagreed 
with), but his point that there sho

Re: [WISPA] Join WISPA?

[Butch Evans]

On Mon, 5 Jun 2006, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

There is a members only list that is much more structured and isn't 
open to just anyone


Is that list open only to Principal members?  I am only an associate 
member.  Do I qualify for that list?  Inquiring minds...


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

[David Sovereen]

Where can I find out what WISPA's official positions are?  Where can I see
the letters and actions WISPA has sent on behalf of its members?  The root
of my questions is, "How do I know that the money I spend is making a
difference?"

I've joined organizations before.  I send them my check or give them a
credit card number and never hear from them again... until they want more
money.  I don't support my local Chamber of Commerce for this exact reason.
What does my local Chamber of Commerce do to deserve my money?  After a
year, I didn't know, so I cancelled my membership.

Dave

989-837-3790 x 151
989-837-3780 fax

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.mercury.net

129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
- Original Message - 
From: "Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


> I'm really at a bit of a loss as to how to deal with your question David.
>
> What's a trade association do for you?  (You being generic here)  The
> idea that the question was asked indicates to me that one doesn't
understand
> what a trade group is for.
>
> It's not, at least not at first, there to put money in your pocket.  Nor
is
> it there to help you control your costs.  Oh sure, most of those things
can
> and will happen at some point.  But it takes time, people and money to
make
> any of that happen.
>
> At this stage WISPA is there to protect our industry  If you don't
> support WISPA we'll not be able to have any voice at all at the FCC or in
> congress.  Especially the FCC.
>
> You see, we talked to folks at the FCC before we set WISPA up.  They made
it
> clear that they'd much rather deal with a trade org. than many
individuals.
> Seems that they don't want to deal with the petty differences of opinion
> either!  They want a stand all hashed out before it gets to them wherever
> that's possible.
>
> No one should, at this stage of the game, be asking what WISPA will do for
> them.  You should all be asking what you can do for WISPA.
>
> Dialup ISPs took it in the shorts far more often than they ever should
have.
> I'm in no mood to put up with that with wireless too.  It's mostly a
safety
> in numbers thing.
>
> We deliberately made the dues so low that there's NO reason people can't
> join.  Heck, on principal alone people should be flocking to us.
>
> If you are one of those frustrated that WISPA isn't doing enough, join the
> club.  We're all frustrated about that.  But just how many more hundreds
> (thousands) of hours should I have to take away from my business and
my
> family when others won't lift a finger?  How does the saying go?  United
we
> stand, divided we fall.  Are those who haven't joined uniters or dividers?
>
> That help?
> marlon
>
> Marlon
> (509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
> (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
> 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
> 64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
> www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
> www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
>
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "David Sovereen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 7:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
>
>
> >I agree with your sentiments completely.
> >
> > One needs to ask, though, "why aren't ISPs supporting WISPA?"  The
answer
> > is
> > more than likely the same answer most small businesses give when asked
why
> > they don't join industry associations: it's not worthwhile... it costs
> > more
> > money than the benefits of membership are worth.
> >
> > My company is not a member of WISPA.  And at this point, I don't see
what
> > benefit membership in WISPA would give me.  I'm a believer in the
strength
> > of numbers and joining ranks for greater good.  That's why I support
NFIB
> > and USIIA, as well as local organizations in my state and community.
> >
> > Why should I send $250 to WISPA?
> >
> > Dave
> >
> > 989-837-3790 x 151
> > 989-837-3780 fax
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > www.mercury.net
> >
> > 129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
> > - Original Message - 
> > From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "WISPA General List" 
> > Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 5:46 PM
> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?
> >
> >
> >> The problem with all of this is that most ISP's wireless or land line
> >> historically do not get involved in a trade association and work
> >> together for the common good.
> >>
> >> Land line ISP's didn't join together and wisps are not joining together
> >> either.
> >>
> >> Here WISPA has been created and hardly anyone is taking advantage of
> >> joining WISPA and trying to get anything done.
> >>
> >> This is the sad thing that is discouraging, that an organization has
> >> been created and nobody is taking advantage of it.
> >> It's also discouraging to hear that some people say or imply t

Re: [WISPA] Join WISPA?

[Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181]

There is a members only list that is much more structured and isn't open to 
just anyone


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: "Peter R." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Join WISPA?



You must get some benefit or why be on the listserv?

You obviously support two other orgs that do lobbying - and WISPA does 
stay active in DC on your behalf.


I had made some suggestions on the Promotion list about this General List.
Maybe it should be by subscription only and the archives for paid members 
only.

It would reduce spam harvesting.

Just a thought.

Peter

David Sovereen wrote:


I agree with your sentiments completely.

One needs to ask, though, "why aren't ISPs supporting WISPA?"  The answer 
is

more than likely the same answer most small businesses give when asked why
they don't join industry associations: it's not worthwhile... it costs 
more

money than the benefits of membership are worth.

My company is not a member of WISPA.  And at this point, I don't see what
benefit membership in WISPA would give me.  I'm a believer in the strength
of numbers and joining ranks for greater good.  That's why I support NFIB
and USIIA, as well as local organizations in my state and community.

Why should I send $250 to WISPA?

Dave

989-837-3790 x 151
989-837-3780 fax

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.mercury.net

129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640


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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

[Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181]

I'm really at a bit of a loss as to how to deal with your question David.

What's a trade association do for you?  (You being generic here)  The 
idea that the question was asked indicates to me that one doesn't understand 
what a trade group is for.


It's not, at least not at first, there to put money in your pocket.  Nor is 
it there to help you control your costs.  Oh sure, most of those things can 
and will happen at some point.  But it takes time, people and money to make 
any of that happen.


At this stage WISPA is there to protect our industry  If you don't 
support WISPA we'll not be able to have any voice at all at the FCC or in 
congress.  Especially the FCC.


You see, we talked to folks at the FCC before we set WISPA up.  They made it 
clear that they'd much rather deal with a trade org. than many individuals. 
Seems that they don't want to deal with the petty differences of opinion 
either!  They want a stand all hashed out before it gets to them wherever 
that's possible.


No one should, at this stage of the game, be asking what WISPA will do for 
them.  You should all be asking what you can do for WISPA.


Dialup ISPs took it in the shorts far more often than they ever should have. 
I'm in no mood to put up with that with wireless too.  It's mostly a safety 
in numbers thing.


We deliberately made the dues so low that there's NO reason people can't 
join.  Heck, on principal alone people should be flocking to us.


If you are one of those frustrated that WISPA isn't doing enough, join the 
club.  We're all frustrated about that.  But just how many more hundreds 
(thousands) of hours should I have to take away from my business and my 
family when others won't lift a finger?  How does the saying go?  United we 
stand, divided we fall.  Are those who haven't joined uniters or dividers?


That help?
marlon

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: "David Sovereen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 7:33 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?



I agree with your sentiments completely.

One needs to ask, though, "why aren't ISPs supporting WISPA?"  The answer 
is

more than likely the same answer most small businesses give when asked why
they don't join industry associations: it's not worthwhile... it costs 
more

money than the benefits of membership are worth.

My company is not a member of WISPA.  And at this point, I don't see what
benefit membership in WISPA would give me.  I'm a believer in the strength
of numbers and joining ranks for greater good.  That's why I support NFIB
and USIIA, as well as local organizations in my state and community.

Why should I send $250 to WISPA?

Dave

989-837-3790 x 151
989-837-3780 fax

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.mercury.net

129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
- Original Message - 
From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?



The problem with all of this is that most ISP's wireless or land line
historically do not get involved in a trade association and work
together for the common good.

Land line ISP's didn't join together and wisps are not joining together
either.

Here WISPA has been created and hardly anyone is taking advantage of
joining WISPA and trying to get anything done.

This is the sad thing that is discouraging, that an organization has
been created and nobody is taking advantage of it.
It's also discouraging to hear that some people say or imply that WISPA
is a good old boys club run by insiders, when in actuality WISPA is an
organization "wide open" that just about anyone in the wisp business can
join run for office get elected and take charge.

Very disappointing, and this is what makes me scream when I hear posts
like Roberts the other day accusing board members of getting paid with
perks or Marks suggestion this morning that the board is on the inside
with this stuff.

You guys, the wisps that are out in the fields doing the wisp business
should be trying harder to get the entire wisp community to join this
organization and to get something accomplished.

My "poll" for a working group for muni wireless had 2 respondents.
Only 2 wisps are interested or think they need help with muni wireless?
Hard to believe.



--
George Rogato

Welcome to WISPA

www.wispa.org

http://signup.wispa.org/
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

[George Rogato]

Thank you Marlon.

I can not recall any issues between Mark or anyone else in wispa and I 
can't imagine that a difference of opinion would put somebody on the 
outside.
I would not want to see differences of opinions put anyone on the 
outside. This organization is made up of many different people with many 
different ideas and personally, I want to hear them all, because that is 
how we come to a consensus. I would hope that even if we disagree with 
each other at times, we still respect each other regardless.


George


Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:


- Original Message - From: "Mark Koskenmaki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?



Because I"m personna non grata with WISPA and Part-15.


sigh

Says who?  Last I knew you were a paid member.  And you've pulled no 
"Glass" style manuvers.  You've not been kicked out of the asso. or 
anything.


You don't agree with some of the WISPA official stands, and that's ok.  
This is the WISPA asso. not the Koskenmaki asso!  Just like it's not the 
Schafer asso.  I don't like everything that WISPA does or stands for. 
Heck, I don't always like everything *I* write on WISPA's behalf  
But it's a group effort, or at least supposed to be.  I don't take it 
personally, though it's often frustrating as hell (USF and our totaly 
lack of any official response comes directly to mind).




I don't share the same political goals, and as such,  I'm not in any
position to do squat.


OK, I can accept that.  But that's YOUR possition, not one of WISPA's 
or, I believe, most of the WISPA membership.




After being threatened by both WISPA people and Part-15 people, being 
told
to shut up and go away, I don't figure I have much influence around 
either
place.   But, since the stories DID appear in several public news 
outlets, I

figured at least someone would notice and care enough to comment.


You were asked to let a dead horse die.  That's not the same as shut up 
and go away.  It's only shut up!!!  Big Grin




And I figure this ends my ability to be on this list, as well.


I don't see why.  Unless you just can't stand not getting your way. 
hehehehehe


Lighten up Mark.  This is a team sport.  It's football, not golf.  You 
don't get to play every hole your way and you don't get to get mad when 
the coaches call a play you don't like.  You still have a job to do for 
your industry.  Do your best and no one here will ever hold that against 
you.


laters,
marlon




See ya.

North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!
 



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Re: [WISPA] USIIA

[David Sovereen]

Peter,

I worked with C.L. Hoewing when I was on the board.  He was thoughtful and
insightful, but had no more influence on USIIA's activities or policies than
anyone else.

> Excuse me, but USIIA has never been a friend of the independent ISP.
> USIIA and Dave McClure have pro RBOC on almost every issue.

Care to give some examples?  USIIA's official positions are very
pro-independent ISP.  You can find them here:
http://www.usiia.org/legis/legis.htm.

The only policy that I can think of that you might misconstrue to be
pro-RBOC is the one of eliminating the requirement that RBOCs open their DSL
networks to independent ISPs.  I was on the board when the Brand X Internet
case was being debated.  I supported USIIA's official position.

For those who aren't familiar with the Brand X Internet case, Brand X is the
name of an ISP that wanted to force open access to the cable networks so
that they could deliver high-speed Internet over the cable network.  The
case went to the Supreme Court.

USIIA's position was and is that there needs to be regulatory parity between
broadband network types.  That means DSL and cable (and wireless and
satellite and broadband over power lines, etc) need to operate under the
same set of rules.  Up till then, DSL networks were regulated (and forced
open to independent ISPs) and cable networks were not regulated (and not
open to independent ISPs).

USIIA's also took the position that less regulation is better.  Rather than
add regulation to the cable networks (which would certainly be later
expanded to regulate wireless and satellite and broadband over power line
networks, etc), USIIA supported removal of regulation of DSL networks.

Yes, that might seem like pro-RBOC.  But it was good for the independent
WISP.  Had the Supreme Court ruling gone the other way, we'd be looking at
laws that would force wireless network operators, like those on this list,
to open their networks to their competitors.

Dave

989-837-3790 x 151
989-837-3780 fax

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.mercury.net

129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
- Original Message - 
From: "Peter R." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] USIIA


> Excuse me, but USIIA has never been a friend of the independent ISP.
> USIIA and Dave McClure have pro RBOC on almost every issue.
> Verizon sits on your board!  (http://www.usiia.org/about/board.htm)
>
> Regards,
>
> Peter
> RAD-INFO, Inc.
>
> David Sovereen wrote:
>
> > Many of you seem to be of the belief that the proposed bill requires
> > you to keep records of the content of subscribers.  Simply put, that
> > is NOT THE CASE.  While I do not know the specific details of the
> > various proposals, I do know that none of them are expecting ISPs to
> > keep copies of content accessed.
> >
> > The proposed bills are requiring that ISPs keep track of what
> > subscriber used what IP address(es).  One version of the bill wants
> > this data retained for one year; another version for two years.  For
> > ISPs using RADIUS for accounting or making static IP assignments, this
> > is pretty easy to do.  I don't know what requirements, if any, are
> > being proposed for subscribers placed behind a NAT firewall shared by
> > many subscribers.
> >
> > I understand that WISPA is an organization still in its infancy, and
> > they don't currently have the resources to "lobby" congress.  But
> > there IS an organization speaking to congress on your bahalf on this
> > issue: The United States Internet Industry Association.
> >
> > As a former member of the board of directors, I can assure you that
> > this is a small, but vocal organization, and they are representing
> > YOUR interests.  Data retention requirements have been on USIIA's
> > radar for quite some time.  On Feburary 17, 2005 (last year) the board
> > of directors adopted this policy as USIIA's official position on data
> > retention: http://www.usiia.org/legis/dataret.html
> >
> > If you'd like to support an organization that does speak to congress
> > and is representing your interests, you might consider giving USIIA
> > your financial.  For the record, their board receives no
> > compensation.  The only paid employee is David McClure, their
> > full-time President and CEO (and "lobbyist", but he doesn't go by that
> > title).
> >
> > Dave
> >
>
> -- 
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>
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>

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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

[Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181]

I know of that organization David.  I think 
WISPA would be happy to work with them on this issue.
 
Marlon(509) 
982-2181   
Equipment sales(408) 907-6910 
(Vonage)    
Consulting services42846865 
(icq)    
And I run my own wisp!64.146.146.12 (net meeting)www.odessaoffice.com/wirelesswww.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
 
 

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  David Sovereen 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 7:08 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent 
  about this?
  
  Many of you seem to be of the belief that the 
  proposed bill requires you to keep records of the content of 
  subscribers.  Simply put, that is NOT THE CASE.  While I do not 
  know the specific details of the various proposals, I do know that none of 
  them are expecting ISPs to keep copies of content accessed.
   
  The proposed bills are requiring that ISPs 
  keep track of what subscriber used what IP address(es).  One version of 
  the bill wants this data retained for one year; another version for two 
  years.  For ISPs using RADIUS for accounting or making static IP 
  assignments, this is pretty easy to do.  I 
  don't know what requirements, if any, are being proposed for subscribers 
  placed behind a NAT firewall shared by many subscribers.
   
  I understand that WISPA is an organization still 
  in its infancy, and they don't currently have the resources to "lobby" 
  congress.  But there IS an organization speaking to congress on your 
  bahalf on this issue: The United States Internet Industry 
  Association.
   
  As a former member of the board of directors, I 
  can assure you that this is a small, but vocal organization, and they are 
  representing YOUR interests.  Data retention requirements have been on 
  USIIA's radar for quite some time.  On Feburary 17, 2005 (last year) the 
  board of directors adopted this policy as USIIA's official position on data 
  retention: http://www.usiia.org/legis/dataret.html
   
  If you'd like to support an organization 
  that does speak to congress and is representing your interests, you might 
  consider giving USIIA your financial.  For the record, their board 
  receives no compensation.  The only paid employee is David McClure, their 
  full-time President and CEO (and "lobbyist", but he doesn't go by that 
  title).
   
  Dave
   
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Pete Davis 

To: WISPA General List ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 2:34 
PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent 
about this?
If/when the feds require it, I guess the way to do it would 
be to run Ethereal in fully promiscuous mode on a mirrored port on a switch 
and streaming it to server over the FBI's T1 to their server. When the 
Federal government installs their T1 to my NOC, I would be willing to upload 
it to them over their network resources to their server for them to to keep 
on file for 2 years to never look at, otherwise, I don't have any way to 
insure that the data hasn't been tampered with if it stays in my file room. 
The government requiring me to keep two years records of all network traffic 
seems unreasonable. If I were a defense attorney defending a client whose 
evidence against him was stored by some local ISP dinks on their servers for 
24 months, I would certainly question the chain of the evidence, and likely 
get it thrown out.Here is an example of how this could go wrong: If 
I am an ISP operator (I am actually) and I have a vendetta against a client 
(I don't, or at least not one I want to discuss here) and I am in charge of 
keeping network logs of all of that client's traffic, I could easily forge 
the records to make it look like he had committed a horrific crime, like 
reproducing the transcript of the commentary of a game without the express 
written consent of Major League Baseball, and make it look like it came from 
his IP address. I don't know how that record, 24 months old, and sitting in 
my tape locker could ever be held as compelling evidence against him, unless 
there was already an investigation, where these records still probably 
couldn't make or break a case.I suppose that the thinking is, that 
if the subscriber is guilty of child porn, and they can prove what site he 
downloaded from and sent it to, they could go after that web host for 
hosting the smut. Either way, putting it off to the local ISP to keep 
records seems far fetched. Pete DavisNoDial.netMac 
Dearman wrote: 
You have enough clients that it would bankrupt you to build a server to log
your HTTP & SMTP traffic? I don't think it would be that difficult or
expensive, but agree that it would be a major PITA! I am pretty sure we will
never be faced with this as the majority of us aren't reliable enough to
even set this 

Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

[Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181]

- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Koskenmaki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?



Because I"m personna non grata with WISPA and Part-15.


sigh

Says who?  Last I knew you were a paid member.  And you've pulled no "Glass" 
style manuvers.  You've not been kicked out of the asso. or anything.


You don't agree with some of the WISPA official stands, and that's ok.  This 
is the WISPA asso. not the Koskenmaki asso!  Just like it's not the Schafer 
asso.  I don't like everything that WISPA does or stands for. Heck, I don't 
always like everything *I* write on WISPA's behalf  But it's a group 
effort, or at least supposed to be.  I don't take it personally, though it's 
often frustrating as hell (USF and our totaly lack of any official response 
comes directly to mind).




I don't share the same political goals, and as such,  I'm not in any
position to do squat.


OK, I can accept that.  But that's YOUR possition, not one of WISPA's or, I 
believe, most of the WISPA membership.




After being threatened by both WISPA people and Part-15 people, being told
to shut up and go away, I don't figure I have much influence around either
place.   But, since the stories DID appear in several public news outlets, 
I

figured at least someone would notice and care enough to comment.


You were asked to let a dead horse die.  That's not the same as shut up and 
go away.  It's only shut up!!!  Big Grin




And I figure this ends my ability to be on this list, as well.


I don't see why.  Unless you just can't stand not getting your way. 
hehehehehe


Lighten up Mark.  This is a team sport.  It's football, not golf.  You don't 
get to play every hole your way and you don't get to get mad when the 
coaches call a play you don't like.  You still have a job to do for your 
industry.  Do your best and no one here will ever hold that against you.


laters,
marlon




See ya.

North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-
- Original Message - 
From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?



I don't know Mark, why don't you go do something about it.
George

Mark Koskenmaki wrote:
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc
>
> Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff?
>
> Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take

contrary

> positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and

encourage
> the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope 
> of

> ingratiating themselves with the regulators?
>
> AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this?
>
> North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
> personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
> sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
> Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

--

--

> -
>

--
George Rogato

Welcome to WISPA

www.wispa.org

http://signup.wispa.org/
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

[Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181]

That certainly looks like something that we should oppose.  For all of the 
reasons listed in the emails so far.


I think that mostly, we should lean on the practical limitations of it (ie: 
proxy servers, private ip issues etc. etc. etc.).  AND we should firmly 
point out that in a free country, one must first break a law, then be 
tracked.  If they think someone is involved in kiddy porn or anything else, 
come to us with the right documentation and ask us to track what they are 
doing as a part of your investigation.  There's NO way We the People should 
be asked to do the investigating for you.  Especially before any laws are 
even thought to be broken.


Mark, why don't you write up a document opposing this.  Work into it, as 
many of the points brought up on this list as you can.  Submit that to the 
board and if we think it's ok we'll shoot it to the membership for final 
review.


I don't have time to deal with this one at this time.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: "Mark Koskenmaki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2006 11:18 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?



http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060601/ts_nm/security_internet_usa_dc

Why aren't we fighting tooth and nail to stop this kinda stuff?

Or, is this issue like certain others, where WISPA founders take contrary
positions to the rest of the members and side with big brother and 
encourage

the feds to dig into and regulate our business, in some apparent hope of
ingratiating themselves with the regulators?

AT LEAST could we have the leadership tell us what THEY think of this?

North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-

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Re: [WISPA] Join WISPA?

[Peter R.]

You must get some benefit or why be on the listserv?

You obviously support two other orgs that do lobbying - and WISPA does 
stay active in DC on your behalf.


I had made some suggestions on the Promotion list about this General List.
Maybe it should be by subscription only and the archives for paid 
members only.

It would reduce spam harvesting.

Just a thought.

Peter

David Sovereen wrote:


I agree with your sentiments completely.

One needs to ask, though, "why aren't ISPs supporting WISPA?"  The answer is
more than likely the same answer most small businesses give when asked why
they don't join industry associations: it's not worthwhile... it costs more
money than the benefits of membership are worth.

My company is not a member of WISPA.  And at this point, I don't see what
benefit membership in WISPA would give me.  I'm a believer in the strength
of numbers and joining ranks for greater good.  That's why I support NFIB
and USIIA, as well as local organizations in my state and community.

Why should I send $250 to WISPA?

Dave

989-837-3790 x 151
989-837-3780 fax

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.mercury.net

129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640


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Re: [WISPA] USIIA

[Peter R.]

Excuse me, but USIIA has never been a friend of the independent ISP.
USIIA and Dave McClure have pro RBOC on almost every issue.
Verizon sits on your board!  (http://www.usiia.org/about/board.htm)

Regards,

Peter
RAD-INFO, Inc.

David Sovereen wrote:

Many of you seem to be of the belief that the proposed bill requires 
you to keep records of the content of subscribers.  Simply put, that 
is NOT THE CASE.  While I do not know the specific details of the 
various proposals, I do know that none of them are expecting ISPs to 
keep copies of content accessed.
 
The proposed bills are requiring that ISPs keep track of what 
subscriber used what IP address(es).  One version of the bill wants 
this data retained for one year; another version for two years.  For 
ISPs using RADIUS for accounting or making static IP assignments, this 
is pretty easy to do.  I don't know what requirements, if any, are 
being proposed for subscribers placed behind a NAT firewall shared by 
many subscribers.
 
I understand that WISPA is an organization still in its infancy, and 
they don't currently have the resources to "lobby" congress.  But 
there IS an organization speaking to congress on your bahalf on this 
issue: The United States Internet Industry Association.
 
As a former member of the board of directors, I can assure you that 
this is a small, but vocal organization, and they are representing 
YOUR interests.  Data retention requirements have been on USIIA's 
radar for quite some time.  On Feburary 17, 2005 (last year) the board 
of directors adopted this policy as USIIA's official position on data 
retention: http://www.usiia.org/legis/dataret.html
 
If you'd like to support an organization that does speak to congress 
and is representing your interests, you might consider giving USIIA 
your financial.  For the record, their board receives no 
compensation.  The only paid employee is David McClure, their 
full-time President and CEO (and "lobbyist", but he doesn't go by that 
title).
 
Dave
 


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[WISPA] Dave asked - Why should I send $250 to WISPA?

[Cliff Leboeuf]

Dave,

You ask "Why should I send $250 to WISPA?"

I assume that you do benefit from the WISPA list, otherwise you wouldn't
take the time to monitor the posts. Just the information that is
available on the list is worth $250 per year to me!

I only have so many hours in a day that I can work and play. Having so
many other individuals' eyes and ears watching the market for me is in
itself worth the membership! 

Oh yea, the WIAPS list is free therefore why should I send WISPA any
money; right!

By sending WISPA your membership, at a minimum, you will be helping
those that incur the expense of providing this 'free' forum keep doing
so. Also, there is more detailed sharing amongst the paid members --
contracts, agreements, and other ideas that don't make the 'free' list.

For less than $1 per day, you and others, can surely afford to help keep
this list 'free' and maybe even help 'fund' existing and future battles
that may need to be waged that require money that WISPA may use for your
benefit. 

The few really active members could probably use help offsetting their
personal expenses when the fight for your interest. If WISPA decides to
help offset these efforts with my membership, that fine with me as it is
cheaper for me to kick in membership fees rather than take time off of
work, pay for travel and accommodations to argue a point that I feel
someone else is more knowledgeable than me about.

This is just my lowly 2 cents worth. I'm sure that other more informed
'paid' members can tell you why they think it is worth the membership
fee.

What would YOU like to see for your $250 membership fee?

Respectfully,
- Cliff



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Sovereen
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 9:33 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

I agree with your sentiments completely.

One needs to ask, though, "why aren't ISPs supporting WISPA?"  The
answer is
more than likely the same answer most small businesses give when asked
why
they don't join industry associations: it's not worthwhile... it costs
more
money than the benefits of membership are worth.

My company is not a member of WISPA.  And at this point, I don't see
what
benefit membership in WISPA would give me.  I'm a believer in the
strength
of numbers and joining ranks for greater good.  That's why I support
NFIB
and USIIA, as well as local organizations in my state and community.

Why should I send $250 to WISPA?

Dave

989-837-3790 x 151
989-837-3780 fax

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.mercury.net

129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
- Original Message - 
From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


> The problem with all of this is that most ISP's wireless or land line
> historically do not get involved in a trade association and work
> together for the common good.
>
> Land line ISP's didn't join together and wisps are not joining
together
> either.
>
> Here WISPA has been created and hardly anyone is taking advantage of
> joining WISPA and trying to get anything done.
>
> This is the sad thing that is discouraging, that an organization has
> been created and nobody is taking advantage of it.
> It's also discouraging to hear that some people say or imply that
WISPA
> is a good old boys club run by insiders, when in actuality WISPA is an
> organization "wide open" that just about anyone in the wisp business
can
> join run for office get elected and take charge.
>
> Very disappointing, and this is what makes me scream when I hear posts
> like Roberts the other day accusing board members of getting paid with
> perks or Marks suggestion this morning that the board is on the inside
> with this stuff.
>
> You guys, the wisps that are out in the fields doing the wisp business
> should be trying harder to get the entire wisp community to join this
> organization and to get something accomplished.
>
> My "poll" for a working group for muni wireless had 2 respondents.
> Only 2 wisps are interested or think they need help with muni
wireless?
> Hard to believe.
>
>
>
> -- 
> George Rogato
>
> Welcome to WISPA
>
> www.wispa.org
>
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> -- 
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
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Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?

[David Sovereen]

I agree with your sentiments completely.

One needs to ask, though, "why aren't ISPs supporting WISPA?"  The answer is
more than likely the same answer most small businesses give when asked why
they don't join industry associations: it's not worthwhile... it costs more
money than the benefits of membership are worth.

My company is not a member of WISPA.  And at this point, I don't see what
benefit membership in WISPA would give me.  I'm a believer in the strength
of numbers and joining ranks for greater good.  That's why I support NFIB
and USIIA, as well as local organizations in my state and community.

Why should I send $250 to WISPA?

Dave

989-837-3790 x 151
989-837-3780 fax

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.mercury.net

129 Ashman St, Midland, MI  48640
- Original Message - 
From: "George Rogato" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 5:46 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about this?


> The problem with all of this is that most ISP's wireless or land line
> historically do not get involved in a trade association and work
> together for the common good.
>
> Land line ISP's didn't join together and wisps are not joining together
> either.
>
> Here WISPA has been created and hardly anyone is taking advantage of
> joining WISPA and trying to get anything done.
>
> This is the sad thing that is discouraging, that an organization has
> been created and nobody is taking advantage of it.
> It's also discouraging to hear that some people say or imply that WISPA
> is a good old boys club run by insiders, when in actuality WISPA is an
> organization "wide open" that just about anyone in the wisp business can
> join run for office get elected and take charge.
>
> Very disappointing, and this is what makes me scream when I hear posts
> like Roberts the other day accusing board members of getting paid with
> perks or Marks suggestion this morning that the board is on the inside
> with this stuff.
>
> You guys, the wisps that are out in the fields doing the wisp business
> should be trying harder to get the entire wisp community to join this
> organization and to get something accomplished.
>
> My "poll" for a working group for muni wireless had 2 respondents.
> Only 2 wisps are interested or think they need help with muni wireless?
> Hard to believe.
>
>
>
> -- 
> George Rogato
>
> Welcome to WISPA
>
> www.wispa.org
>
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> -- 
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>

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RE: [WISPA] FW: See what's new at DragonWave @ WCA 2006

[rharnish]

Thanks for all your efforts over the weekend George.  I'm not sure why the
boxing gloves always need to come out on the weekend.  Let's put this behind
us NOW everyone.  We all have more important things to be doing than to
bicker on this mailing list.  People tend to make poor judgements in the
heat of the moment, I have seen several posts and replies from this weekend
that enforce this assumption.  Although we do not allowing spamming of the
list, there is not much we can do about list harvesting and spamming outside
the list.  Bringing these actions and rebuttals to the list is in effect,
secondary spamming of the list.  Just take it up with the vendor directly or
refuse to purchase from them if it offends you that much.  It should be
everyone's right to make those decisions for themselves.  

THREAD CLOSED!
 
Rick Harnish
President
Supernova Technologies, Inc.
260-827-2482 Office
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Founding Member of WISPA 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 2:22 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] FW: See what's new at DragonWave @ WCA 2006

I don't think anyone is condoning anything Lonnie.

But I am trying to defuse the issue without pissing both of you off.

George

Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:
> You miss the point George.  I am not fighting.  I called Johnny on his
> actions and he immediately went personal and abusive.  I rarely speak
> up anymore but I thought this was a critical misuse of the list.
> 
> Are you saying it is appropriate for everyone to forward their spam to
> this list and use offensive language as they ask if anyone else got
> the spam?  Is it then appropriate to try and defend one's actions by
> slandering a whole lot of people based on their country?
> 
> Is this what WISPA is about and do the members condone such behaviour?
> 
> Lonnie
> 
> On 6/4/06, George Rogato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> At least you apologized Johnny, but it does get old watching people 
>> fight.
>>
>> Can't you guys just agree to not get along and ignore each other?
>>
>> George
>>
>> JohnnyO wrote:
>> > Lonnie - my experiences and my opinions of Canadian companies are that
>> > of my own. Apparently you're looking to make an ass out of both you and
>> > I or else you wouldn't have responded the way you did Slander - not
>> > even close.
>> >
>> > I KNOW DragonWave Harvested this list - Just like Tranzeo has harvested
>> > this list as well in the past...and so has Trango ... They are Canadian
>> > Companies who are spamming from the list addresses as of late. Should I
>> > expect some email from StarOS anytime soon ?
>> >
>> > I won't continue this any further and if I offended you by asking the
>> > list if the pricks at DragonWave (my opinion solely) are spamming 
>> others
>> > as well, my appologies.
>> >
>> > If you don't accept my appology, you leave me no other choice then to
>> > plea temporary insanity and appologize for my verbal offense which I 
>> did
>> > not realize I committed nor was I aware of any such actions and any
>> > future repetition of the above said that I may not be aware of.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > JohnnyO
>> >
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> > Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
>> > Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 12:03 AM
>> > To: WISPA General List
>> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] FW: See what's new at DragonWave @ WCA 2006
>> >
>> >
>> > To the Board:
>> >
>> > Is this behaviour condoned?  Not only did he spam the list and use
>> > offensive language, but he now slanders all Canadian companies.
>> >
>> > Lonnie
>> >
>> > On 6/4/06, JohnnyO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>Ahhh my old good friend Lonnie :) How are you these days ? Get a clue
>> >>. I did - don't buy from Canadian companies - they'll bend you
>> >>over every chance they get :)
>> >>
>> >>Prick : please see
>> >>http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=prick for a better run
>> >>down on the term Lonnie. I did watch my language. Don't be so
>> >>sensitive unless you fit the shoes...
>> >>
>> >>I know I do !
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>JohnnyO
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>-Original Message-
>> >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >>On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
>> >>Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:53 PM
>> >>To: WISPA General List
>> >>Subject: Re: [WISPA] FW: See what's new at DragonWave @ WCA 2006
>> >>
>> >>If you object to spam as much as you say you do, then why on earth
>> >>would you send that spam to a list?  Get a clue.  Also, watch your
>> >>language.
>> >>
>> >>Lonnie
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>On 6/4/06, JohnnyO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>Anyone Else receiving these from these pricks ?
>> >>>
>> >>>JohnnyO
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>-Original Message-
>> >>>From: APGWireless Info [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >>>Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:18 PM
>> >>>To: 'Chris Russell'
>> >>>Cc:

RE: Notice to the Board..... Was: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent aboutthis?

[Cliff Leboeuf]

I thought tomorrow was 6-6-6! 

If 6-4-6 made this list so active, I can hardly wait for 6-6-6.

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Mac Dearman
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:34 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: Notice to the Board. Was: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent
aboutthis?

 

DANG MAN!!

 

  I can't believe the board is
paying for a Tarot card reader - - is she

still alive? Or do y'all consult her from the grave? I ask this because
if

you are consulting her from the grave you better be careful as George
Carlin

was showing up here a while back in place of our dead Tarot card
reader. He

thought it was funny to come back and try to scare us :-)

 

 We have moved back to the lucky
Rabbits foot, a necklace made of Alligator

paws and Chicken feet. I have yet to figure out what's lucky about a
Rabbit,

an Alligator or a Chicken that has lost its limbs? Damn - - - 

 

 

Mac Dearman

 

 

 

-Original Message-

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Bob Moldashel

Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 8:45 AM

To: WISPA General List

Subject: Notice to the Board. Was: [WISPA] Why's WISPA silent about

this?

 

Sheesh.Here we go again.

 

WISPA needs a Prescription plan with automatic renewals and 24 hour 

nursing so members will take their medication on time.

 

Also looks like WISPA needs to fire that new Crystal Ball Reader they 

just hired.  Another attack on
the industry just got by us without her 

letting us know.

 

Sure is a shame one of the members couldn't have brought it to WISPA's 

attention in a more mature, informative way like most members do. After


all, that is a responsibility of the membership.

 

It's also a shame that more people don't just step up to the plate and 

help with these issues instead of just attacking the small handful of 

people ( and I mean SMALL) that are doing it. But I guess with all
those 

big paychecks the board members are making they should be doing all the


work!  

 

Thankfully the Feds send us money personally just so we won't rock the 

boat on issues like these 

 

-B-

 

DISCLAIMER:  WISPA does not have
a Crystal Ball Reader.  We have a 

Tarrot Card Reader.  She was
cheaper and more fun to watch work.  The 

Board Members do not get paid any compensation. They get all their 

personal satisfaction seeing that members such as George really 

appreciate what they are doing for him and his business. And the Fed's 

never sent us (past and present board members) any financial 

compensation. They did say that we could make Alberto Gonzales our
legal 

adviser pro bono though..

 

 

 

-- 

Bob Moldashel

Lakeland Communications, Inc.

Broadband Deployment Group

1350 Lincoln Avenue

Holbrook,
 New York 11741
 USA

800-479-9195 Toll Free US & Canada

631-585-5558 Fax

516-551-1131 Cell

 

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RE: [WISPA] FW: See what's new at DragonWave @ WCA 2006

[Cliff Leboeuf]

Ooooh what a beautiful mnnniiiggg

Ooooh what a beautiful dayy!

 



 

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 1:22 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] FW: See what's new at DragonWave @ WCA 2006

 

I don't think anyone is condoning anything Lonnie.

 

But I am trying to defuse the issue without pissing both of you off.

 

George

 

Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:

> You miss the point George. 
I am not fighting.  I called
Johnny on his

> actions and he immediately went personal and abusive.  I rarely speak

> up anymore but I thought this was a critical misuse of the list.

> 

> Are you saying it is appropriate for everyone to forward their
spam to

> this list and use offensive language as they ask if anyone else
got

> the spam?  Is it then
appropriate to try and defend one's actions by

> slandering a whole lot of people based on their country?

> 

> Is this what WISPA is about and do the members condone such
behaviour?

> 

> Lonnie

> 

> On 6/4/06, George Rogato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 

>> At least you apologized Johnny, but it does get old watching
people 

>> fight.

>> 

>> Can't you guys just agree to not get along and ignore each
other?

>> 

>> George

>> 

>> JohnnyO wrote:

>> > Lonnie - my experiences and my opinions of Canadian
companies are that

>> > of my own. Apparently you're looking to make an ass out
of both you and

>> > I or else you wouldn't have responded the way you did
Slander - not

>> > even close.

>> >

>> > I KNOW DragonWave Harvested this list - Just like Tranzeo
has harvested

>> > this list as well in the past...and so has Trango ...
They are Canadian

>> > Companies who are spamming from the list addresses as of
late. Should I

>> > expect some email from StarOS anytime soon ?

>> >

>> > I won't continue this any further and if I offended you
by asking the

>> > list if the pricks at DragonWave (my opinion solely) are
spamming 

>> others

>> > as well, my appologies.

>> >

>> > If you don't accept my appology, you leave me no other
choice then to

>> > plea temporary insanity and appologize for my verbal
offense which I 

>> did

>> > not realize I committed nor was I aware of any such
actions and any

>> > future repetition of the above said that I may not be
aware of.

>> >

>> > Regards,

>> >

>> > JohnnyO

>> >

>> > -Original Message-

>> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

>> > Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler

>> > Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 12:03 AM

>> > To: WISPA General List

>> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] FW: See what's new at DragonWave @
WCA 2006

>> >

>> >

>> > To the Board:

>> >

>> > Is this behaviour condoned?  Not only did he spam the list and use

>> > offensive language, but he now slanders all Canadian
companies.

>> >

>> > Lonnie

>> >

>> > On 6/4/06, JohnnyO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> >

>> >>

>> >>Ahhh my old good friend Lonnie :) How are you these
days ? Get a clue

>> >>. I did - don't buy from Canadian companies -
they'll bend you

>> >>over every chance they get :)

>> >>

>> >>Prick : please see

>> >>http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=prick
for a better run

>> >>down on the term Lonnie. I did watch my language.
Don't be so

>> >>sensitive unless you fit the shoes...

>> >>

>> >>I know I do !

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>JohnnyO

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>-Original Message-

>> >>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

>> >>On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler

>> >>Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 10:53 PM

>> >>To: WISPA General List

>> >>Subject: Re: [WISPA] FW: See what's new at DragonWave
@ WCA 2006

>> >>

>> >>If you object to spam as much as you say you do, then
why on earth

>> >>would you send that spam to a list?  Get a clue. 
Also, watch your

>> >>language.

>> >>

>> >>Lonnie

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>On 6/4/06, JohnnyO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>> >>

>> >>>

>> >>>

>> >>>Anyone Else receiving these from these pricks ?

>> >>>

>> >>>JohnnyO

>> >>>

>> >>>

>> >>>

>> >>>-Original Message-

>> >>>From: APGWireless Info
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

>> >>>Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:18 PM

>> >>>To: 'Chris Russell'

>> >>>Cc: WISPA General List

>> >>>Subject: RE: See what's new at DragonWave @ WCA
2006

>> >>>

>> >>>

>> >>>Please do NOT spam me any further in the future -
I'd like to be

>> >>>removed

>> >>

>> >>from any and ALL lists ya'll have harvested from the
WISP online

>> >>forum/lists immediately. I've asked numerous times
without any

>> >>success.

>> >>

>> >>>Regards,

>> >>>

>> >>>JohnnyO

>> >>>

>> >>>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>

>> >>--

>> >>Lonnie Nunweiler

>> >>Valemount Networks Corporation

>> >>http://www.star-os.com/

>> >>

>> >>--

>> >>WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

>> >>

>> >>Subscribe/Unsubscribe:

>> >>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

>> >>

>> >>Archiv