Re: [WISPA] Wimax 2.5 & 4.9 Ghz?

[Rubens Kuhl]

On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 1:49 PM, Gino Villarini  wrote:
> Working on a RUS funded RFP, need a 802.16e 2.5 & 4.9 system, who are the
> current players?

Redline Communications has a few new series named RDL-, and some
of them support 4.9. 2.5 is a band they long ago decided not to
support.


Rubens



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax 2.5 & 4.9 Ghz?

[Ryan Spott]

Tranzeo has a 2.5 that just went through OET last November. Perhaps they 
have something that scales like Aperto?




For some reason IE9 fails on the page above.

ryan

On 5/12/2011 11:03 AM, Blake Covarrubias wrote:

In 2.5: Motorola, Huawei, PureWave, ZTE, Gemtek

--
Blake Covarrubias

On May 12, 2011, at 9:49, "Gino Villarini" > wrote:


Working on a RUS funded RFP, need a 802.16e 2.5 & 4.9 system, who are 
the current players?


Aperto, Alvarion, Airspan?

Gino A. Villarini

g...@aeronetpr.com 

Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.

787.273.4143




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org 

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/






WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/





WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax 2.5 & 4.9 Ghz?

[Blake Covarrubias]

In 2.5: Motorola, Huawei, PureWave, ZTE, Gemtek

--
Blake Covarrubias

On May 12, 2011, at 9:49, "Gino Villarini"  wrote:

> Working on a RUS funded RFP, need a 802.16e 2.5 & 4.9 system, who are the 
> current players?
> 
>  
> 
> Aperto, Alvarion, Airspan?
> 
>  
> 
> Gino A. Villarini
> 
> g...@aeronetpr.com
> 
> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
> 
> 787.273.4143
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
> 
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> 
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> 
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

[WISPA] Wimax 2.5 & 4.9 Ghz?

[Gino Villarini]

Working on a RUS funded RFP, need a 802.16e 2.5 & 4.9 system, who are
the current players?

 

Aperto, Alvarion, Airspan?

 

Gino A. Villarini

g...@aeronetpr.com  

Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.

787.273.4143




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

[WISPA] WIMAX & LTE not 4G according to ITU

[Justin Wilson]

http://www.mtin.net/blog/2010/10/23/4g-defined-wimax-and-lte-dont-qualify-mo
bilize-infoworld/

The truth is, neither WiMax nor LTE (Long-Term Evolution) qualify as 4G
(fourth-generation) technologies, according to the International
Telecommunication Union Radiocommunication Sector (ITU-R). On Thursday, the
group announced it had finished its assessment of submissions for the 4G
standard, also called IMT-Advanced. Based on that group's decision, to
really be selling 4G, carriers will have to get going with one of two future
technologies, called LTE-Advanced and WirelessMAN-Advanced. The latter, also
known as IEEE 802.16m, will form the basis of WiMax Release 2.

Mainly just semantics, but still interesting.

-- 
Justin Wilson 
http://www.mtin.net/blog ­ xISP News
http://www.twitter.com/j2sw ­ Follow me on Twitter
Wisp Consulting ­ Tower Climbing ­ Network Support





WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Paolo Di Francesco]

I don't think so :)


> And the only one on this list out of the States?  Is that right?


-- 


Ing. Paolo Di Francesco

Teleinform S.p.A.
Sede Legale: Via Francesco Paolo Di Blasi 1, 90144 Palermo
Unita' Operativa: Via Regione Siciliana 49, 90046 Monreale (Palermo)
Tel: +39-091-6408576, +39-091-6404501
Fax: +39-091-6406200

http://www.wikitel.it
http://www.teleinform.com






WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Tom DeReggi]

Charles,

Excellent comment.

I'd argue though that its not a matter of customer count, but more about a 
revenue threshold to justify staying in business.
I believe the first threshold is about $15k monthly. Unlessthat threashold 
is met, its not cost effective to stay in business, but if it is met, 
usually the owner can get an ROI over time if they let it sit, and stay a 
one man show. Who knows if they'll ever get a full return on their 
investment, but money is sunk, and justified to let it continue because 
ongoing revenue pays as much as a day job, so let it ride on.

But your point was well heard, "how do you get to the next level?".

The next level might be around the $40k monthly range. Now one can add a 
couple employees, and have decent capacity and coverage, core costs covered, 
be competitive and be cash flow possitive doing it. Life is easier, profit 
is better, sustainabilty likely achieved. Now theirs a chance the owner can 
get a decent ROI over time, and clearly pays better than the day job.

But your point was well heard, and again ask, "how do you get to the next 
level?".

The think is, if the owner stays as is focuses on new customers (rev) 
and not buildout (new costs), its easilly sailing. In past years, maybe 10 
new business subs were needed to break even on a tower cost. A lot of work 
little reward. But now, 1 new business subs means it can cover a new car 
payment of luxury. But 1 more new business sub just bought you a beautiful 
new Flat screen TV. But 1 new business sub now makes a sizable monthly 
payment towards paying off finance debt.  The owner sees the light, why 
change the new found pattern?

Why grow? Or more importantly, Why spend?

Even with the Free Grant money, is it worth it? The requirement is that the 
recipient CAN NOT use the revenue/profit to pay themselves. All funds have 
to be spent on supporting the capitol infrastructure for the next 3 years. 
Why would a WISP want to divert all their free time the next 3 years working 
for free AGAIN, instead of working on the easy sales on their pre-existing 
network that instantly translates to PROFIT and ROI today?

Its costly to grow, whether its with your own money, or subsidized money. 
And its surely tough to decide to start all over again, going back into 
investment mode instead of payback mode.

One of my favorite stories is of an experience I had back in 1997, waiting 
to pickup an order from a Computer Distributer.
I ran into an old rival buddy of mine, we both just started our own 
businesses a year or two before.
I was like "How ya doing, we got like 4 CNEs now",
He was like, "yeah, well we got 5 techs now"
He was like "Well we broke 1 mil this year".
I was like "Well, we broke 2 mil last year".
Then an old guy waiting at the counter stepped over, joined in and said,
"Well, I've been in business for 15 years now, I have 1 employee he's been 
with me for 10, all I ever needed.  I have a beautiful home, a great wife, 
time for my kids, you can see my nice car out front, my customers love me, I 
treat them fairly and my quality is top notch, I got plenty of work, 
probably half-mil yearly, and get to choose which work I accept, but most of 
all I have peice of mind, and I sleep really well at night.  So who's the 
winner?"

We thanked our new friend for his insight. My friend and I looked at our 
watches, and he just realizes he's late for his meeting with his divorse 
attorney, and I just realize I'm about to miss another kids soccer game, and 
off we went in our clunkers.  I learned something that day, and made a 
change.  Now 13 years later, I look into the mirror, and I see a resemblance 
of that guy, and I'm fine with that.

I'm not saying, "dont spend, dont invest, dont evolve", I'm just saying, 
"bigger isn't always better".

When it comes to WiMax, I ask the same question as Non-WiMax. How is 
this choice going to make me more money today, with less effort?
 If the Plan shows it can, all is good.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Charles Wu" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 4:36 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


> >Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff for
>>service calls and time to repair for customers are often more important
>>than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do spend
>>more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots of expensive gear.
>>Keeping CPE prices down is appreciated and important, but less tangible
>>ongoing management, troubleshooting, and repair costs must also be
>>considered. The reduction in support costs isn't an expection, it's a
>>reality and requirement in many situations.
>

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Josh Luthman]

And the only one on this list out of the States?  Is that right?

On 1/5/10, Gino Villarini  wrote:
> 1800 subs, 18 employes and profitable
>
> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>
>
> On Jan 5, 2010, at 7:15 PM, "Josh Luthman"
>  wrote:
>
>> 200 subs, 2 owners, 3 employees and profitable...
>>
>> Super amazing fortunate we are.
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
>> --- Albert Einstein
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 7:06 PM, Matt Jenkins > >wrote:
>>
>>> Our company has almost 800 customers at the moment and 4 employees
>>> and
>>> is profitable!
>>>
>>> Charles Wu wrote:
>>>>> Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff
>>>>> for
>>>>> service calls and time to repair for customers are often more
>>>>> important
>>>>> than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do
>>>>> spend
>>>>> more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots of expensive
>>>>> gear.
>>>>> Keeping CPE prices down is appreciated and important, but less
>>>>> tangible
>>>>> ongoing management, troubleshooting, and repair costs must also be
>>>>> considered. The reduction in support costs isn't an expection,
>>>>> it's a
>>>>> reality and requirement in many situations.
>>>>
>>>> When you're working as a startup, labor costs are essentially zero
>>>> (and
>>> if you're asian like myself, you can call on your
>>> kids/relatives/grandparents to work nights and weekends -- the
>>> classic
>>> Chinese restaurant business model =)
>>>>
>>>> However, when working with employees (and I don't care how smart /
>>> hard-working / strong willed you are, there's still only 24 hours
>>> in a day)
>>> -- labor costs become a bigger factor as the organization scales
>>>>
>>>> So this brings up a more interesting debate -- e.g., one-man band /
>>> mom-and-pop vs. organizational strategy
>>>>
>>>> As an organization, trying to run a WISP with 700 residential
>>>> customers
>>> is a complete waste of time, however, as a one-man-band -- an 700
>>> customer
>>> WISP can be highly profitable
>>>>
>>>> The problem here is that there's a nasty chasm between what the
>>>> one-man
>>> band can handle and what an organization needs to support itself
>>> (e.g., it
>>> doesn't scale linearly)
>>>>
>>>> The picture looks more like this
>>>>
>>>> 700 customers -- one-man band (or equivalent) -- highly profitable
>>>>
>>>> Then -- they start hiring employees to grow and scale the business
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, there's a minimum amount of overhead required, and
>>>> what
>>> was once a profitable business is now bleeding red ink and needs to
>>> reach
>>> 2,000 customers before things get good again
>>>>
>>>> Which creates an interesting question -- if you're such a WISP, do
>>>> you
>>> just stop and sit tight at 700 customers? Or do you "go-for-broke"
>>> by trying
>>> to grow?
>>>>
>>>> -Charles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
>>>> boun...@wispa.org] On
>>> Behalf Of jp
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 10:36 AM
>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Jan 04, 2010 at 05:28:49PM -0600, Wallace Walcher wrote:
>>>>> Having built my WISP from scratch with my own resources and
>>>>> currently
>>> being
>>>>> debt free in my operations, I often wonder who the people are who
>>>>> so
>>> quickly
>>>>> classify Mikrotik and Ubiquity gear as trash.  I am making a very
>>>>> good
>>>>> living deploying such "trash".
>>>>
>>>> I'm not ashamed of calling their bluff when they say something is
>>>> "carrier class"

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Gino Villarini]

1800 subs, 18 employes and profitable

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Jan 5, 2010, at 7:15 PM, "Josh Luthman"  
 wrote:

> 200 subs, 2 owners, 3 employees and profitable...
>
> Super amazing fortunate we are.
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
> --- Albert Einstein
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 7:06 PM, Matt Jenkins  >wrote:
>
>> Our company has almost 800 customers at the moment and 4 employees  
>> and
>> is profitable!
>>
>> Charles Wu wrote:
>>>> Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff  
>>>> for
>>>> service calls and time to repair for customers are often more  
>>>> important
>>>> than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do  
>>>> spend
>>>> more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots of expensive  
>>>> gear.
>>>> Keeping CPE prices down is appreciated and important, but less  
>>>> tangible
>>>> ongoing management, troubleshooting, and repair costs must also be
>>>> considered. The reduction in support costs isn't an expection,  
>>>> it's a
>>>> reality and requirement in many situations.
>>>
>>> When you're working as a startup, labor costs are essentially zero  
>>> (and
>> if you're asian like myself, you can call on your
>> kids/relatives/grandparents to work nights and weekends -- the  
>> classic
>> Chinese restaurant business model =)
>>>
>>> However, when working with employees (and I don't care how smart /
>> hard-working / strong willed you are, there's still only 24 hours  
>> in a day)
>> -- labor costs become a bigger factor as the organization scales
>>>
>>> So this brings up a more interesting debate -- e.g., one-man band /
>> mom-and-pop vs. organizational strategy
>>>
>>> As an organization, trying to run a WISP with 700 residential  
>>> customers
>> is a complete waste of time, however, as a one-man-band -- an 700  
>> customer
>> WISP can be highly profitable
>>>
>>> The problem here is that there's a nasty chasm between what the  
>>> one-man
>> band can handle and what an organization needs to support itself  
>> (e.g., it
>> doesn't scale linearly)
>>>
>>> The picture looks more like this
>>>
>>> 700 customers -- one-man band (or equivalent) -- highly profitable
>>>
>>> Then -- they start hiring employees to grow and scale the business
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, there's a minimum amount of overhead required, and  
>>> what
>> was once a profitable business is now bleeding red ink and needs to  
>> reach
>> 2,000 customers before things get good again
>>>
>>> Which creates an interesting question -- if you're such a WISP, do  
>>> you
>> just stop and sit tight at 700 customers? Or do you "go-for-broke"  
>> by trying
>> to grow?
>>>
>>> -Charles
>>>
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
>>> boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of jp
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 10:36 AM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jan 04, 2010 at 05:28:49PM -0600, Wallace Walcher wrote:
>>>> Having built my WISP from scratch with my own resources and  
>>>> currently
>> being
>>>> debt free in my operations, I often wonder who the people are who  
>>>> so
>> quickly
>>>> classify Mikrotik and Ubiquity gear as trash.  I am making a very  
>>>> good
>>>> living deploying such "trash".
>>>
>>> I'm not ashamed of calling their bluff when they say something is
>>> "carrier class", and it's not even released yet and then has  
>>> firmware
>>> their either sets the timing wrong to the point of destroying the  
>>> link
>>> or doesn't do vlans, and the firmware isn't pulled offline because  
>>> it's
>>> the best stuff available.
>>>
>>> I've got a couple UBNT M links up and like them, and believe it  
>>> has a
>>> future. I just can't put my whole business on the line w

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Josh Luthman]

200 subs, 2 owners, 3 employees and profitable...

Super amazing fortunate we are.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
--- Albert Einstein


On Tue, Jan 5, 2010 at 7:06 PM, Matt Jenkins wrote:

> Our company has almost 800 customers at the moment and 4 employees and
> is profitable!
>
> Charles Wu wrote:
> >> Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff for
> >> service calls and time to repair for customers are often more important
> >> than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do spend
> >> more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots of expensive gear.
> >> Keeping CPE prices down is appreciated and important, but less tangible
> >> ongoing management, troubleshooting, and repair costs must also be
> >> considered. The reduction in support costs isn't an expection, it's a
> >> reality and requirement in many situations.
> >
> > When you're working as a startup, labor costs are essentially zero (and
> if you're asian like myself, you can call on your
> kids/relatives/grandparents to work nights and weekends -- the classic
> Chinese restaurant business model =)
> >
> > However, when working with employees (and I don't care how smart /
> hard-working / strong willed you are, there's still only 24 hours in a day)
> -- labor costs become a bigger factor as the organization scales
> >
> > So this brings up a more interesting debate -- e.g., one-man band /
> mom-and-pop vs. organizational strategy
> >
> > As an organization, trying to run a WISP with 700 residential customers
> is a complete waste of time, however, as a one-man-band -- an 700 customer
> WISP can be highly profitable
> >
> > The problem here is that there's a nasty chasm between what the one-man
> band can handle and what an organization needs to support itself (e.g., it
> doesn't scale linearly)
> >
> > The picture looks more like this
> >
> > 700 customers -- one-man band (or equivalent) -- highly profitable
> >
> > Then -- they start hiring employees to grow and scale the business
> >
> > Unfortunately, there's a minimum amount of overhead required, and what
> was once a profitable business is now bleeding red ink and needs to reach
> 2,000 customers before things get good again
> >
> > Which creates an interesting question -- if you're such a WISP, do you
> just stop and sit tight at 700 customers? Or do you "go-for-broke" by trying
> to grow?
> >
> > -Charles
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of jp
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 10:36 AM
> > To: WISPA General List
> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
> >
> > On Mon, Jan 04, 2010 at 05:28:49PM -0600, Wallace Walcher wrote:
> >> Having built my WISP from scratch with my own resources and currently
> being
> >> debt free in my operations, I often wonder who the people are who so
> quickly
> >> classify Mikrotik and Ubiquity gear as trash.  I am making a very good
> >> living deploying such "trash".
> >
> > I'm not ashamed of calling their bluff when they say something is
> > "carrier class", and it's not even released yet and then has firmware
> > their either sets the timing wrong to the point of destroying the link
> > or doesn't do vlans, and the firmware isn't pulled offline because it's
> > the best stuff available.
> >
> > I've got a couple UBNT M links up and like them, and believe it has a
> > future. I just can't put my whole business on the line while they refine
> > a product. It is wise and irrestible to try the stuff though.
> >
> > I've got a downtown network of UBNT 802.11 gear, and the nanos and
> > bullets just can't handle the interference as I'd like. It was intended
> > to be an upgrade from the breezecom FH gear which was slow but reliable.
> > The UBNT is faster, but less reliable in the presence of local
> > interference. Now, if someone has an interference problem, we
> > immediately swap them over to Alvarion 5.4 gear. It is more expensive,
> > but we know we'll never have a service call after it's put in unless it
> > gets hit by lightning or the customer wants to upgrade. We would have
> > been wise to upgrade straight from the old stuff to 5.4. I'd still
> > recommend the U

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Matt Jenkins]

Our company has almost 800 customers at the moment and 4 employees and 
is profitable!

Charles Wu wrote:
>> Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff for 
>> service calls and time to repair for customers are often more important 
>> than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do spend 
>> more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots of expensive gear. 
>> Keeping CPE prices down is appreciated and important, but less tangible 
>> ongoing management, troubleshooting, and repair costs must also be 
>> considered. The reduction in support costs isn't an expection, it's a 
>> reality and requirement in many situations.
> 
> When you're working as a startup, labor costs are essentially zero (and if 
> you're asian like myself, you can call on your kids/relatives/grandparents to 
> work nights and weekends -- the classic Chinese restaurant business model =)
> 
> However, when working with employees (and I don't care how smart / 
> hard-working / strong willed you are, there's still only 24 hours in a day) 
> -- labor costs become a bigger factor as the organization scales
> 
> So this brings up a more interesting debate -- e.g., one-man band / 
> mom-and-pop vs. organizational strategy
> 
> As an organization, trying to run a WISP with 700 residential customers is a 
> complete waste of time, however, as a one-man-band -- an 700 customer WISP 
> can be highly profitable
> 
> The problem here is that there's a nasty chasm between what the one-man band 
> can handle and what an organization needs to support itself (e.g., it doesn't 
> scale linearly)
> 
> The picture looks more like this
> 
> 700 customers -- one-man band (or equivalent) -- highly profitable
> 
> Then -- they start hiring employees to grow and scale the business
> 
> Unfortunately, there's a minimum amount of overhead required, and what was 
> once a profitable business is now bleeding red ink and needs to reach 2,000 
> customers before things get good again
> 
> Which creates an interesting question -- if you're such a WISP, do you just 
> stop and sit tight at 700 customers? Or do you "go-for-broke" by trying to 
> grow?
> 
> -Charles
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On 
> Behalf Of jp
> Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 10:36 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
> 
> On Mon, Jan 04, 2010 at 05:28:49PM -0600, Wallace Walcher wrote:
>> Having built my WISP from scratch with my own resources and currently being
>> debt free in my operations, I often wonder who the people are who so quickly
>> classify Mikrotik and Ubiquity gear as trash.  I am making a very good
>> living deploying such "trash".
> 
> I'm not ashamed of calling their bluff when they say something is 
> "carrier class", and it's not even released yet and then has firmware 
> their either sets the timing wrong to the point of destroying the link 
> or doesn't do vlans, and the firmware isn't pulled offline because it's 
> the best stuff available.
> 
> I've got a couple UBNT M links up and like them, and believe it has a 
> future. I just can't put my whole business on the line while they refine 
> a product. It is wise and irrestible to try the stuff though.
> 
> I've got a downtown network of UBNT 802.11 gear, and the nanos and 
> bullets just can't handle the interference as I'd like. It was intended 
> to be an upgrade from the breezecom FH gear which was slow but reliable. 
> The UBNT is faster, but less reliable in the presence of local 
> interference. Now, if someone has an interference problem, we 
> immediately swap them over to Alvarion 5.4 gear. It is more expensive, 
> but we know we'll never have a service call after it's put in unless it 
> gets hit by lightning or the customer wants to upgrade. We would have 
> been wise to upgrade straight from the old stuff to 5.4. I'd still 
> recommend the UBNT CPE for truly rural use.
> 
> Then MT is always making something wonky. A couple years ago, you could 
> crash the MT with a SNMP query. Now, if you put an N card in and upgrade 
> the firmware in your 433ah to 4.4, you might lose the ethernet ports. I 
> stay 1-4 months behind on their firmware because it's a mystery what you 
> might get. Changelogs show less than half of what they change. I do like 
> them for basic routing and also use their gear for a few links. I think 
> it's a step up from UBNT for ptp 802.11 based links. I also like MT 
> because it's pretty low power

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Charles Wu]

>Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff for 
>service calls and time to repair for customers are often more important 
>than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do spend 
>more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots of expensive gear. 
>Keeping CPE prices down is appreciated and important, but less tangible 
>ongoing management, troubleshooting, and repair costs must also be 
>considered. The reduction in support costs isn't an expection, it's a 
>reality and requirement in many situations.

When you're working as a startup, labor costs are essentially zero (and if 
you're asian like myself, you can call on your kids/relatives/grandparents to 
work nights and weekends -- the classic Chinese restaurant business model =)

However, when working with employees (and I don't care how smart / hard-working 
/ strong willed you are, there's still only 24 hours in a day) -- labor costs 
become a bigger factor as the organization scales

So this brings up a more interesting debate -- e.g., one-man band / mom-and-pop 
vs. organizational strategy

As an organization, trying to run a WISP with 700 residential customers is a 
complete waste of time, however, as a one-man-band -- an 700 customer WISP can 
be highly profitable

The problem here is that there's a nasty chasm between what the one-man band 
can handle and what an organization needs to support itself (e.g., it doesn't 
scale linearly)

The picture looks more like this

700 customers -- one-man band (or equivalent) -- highly profitable

Then -- they start hiring employees to grow and scale the business

Unfortunately, there's a minimum amount of overhead required, and what was once 
a profitable business is now bleeding red ink and needs to reach 2,000 
customers before things get good again

Which creates an interesting question -- if you're such a WISP, do you just 
stop and sit tight at 700 customers? Or do you "go-for-broke" by trying to grow?

-Charles


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of jp
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2010 10:36 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

On Mon, Jan 04, 2010 at 05:28:49PM -0600, Wallace Walcher wrote:
> Having built my WISP from scratch with my own resources and currently being
> debt free in my operations, I often wonder who the people are who so quickly
> classify Mikrotik and Ubiquity gear as trash.  I am making a very good
> living deploying such "trash".

I'm not ashamed of calling their bluff when they say something is 
"carrier class", and it's not even released yet and then has firmware 
their either sets the timing wrong to the point of destroying the link 
or doesn't do vlans, and the firmware isn't pulled offline because it's 
the best stuff available.

I've got a couple UBNT M links up and like them, and believe it has a 
future. I just can't put my whole business on the line while they refine 
a product. It is wise and irrestible to try the stuff though.

I've got a downtown network of UBNT 802.11 gear, and the nanos and 
bullets just can't handle the interference as I'd like. It was intended 
to be an upgrade from the breezecom FH gear which was slow but reliable. 
The UBNT is faster, but less reliable in the presence of local 
interference. Now, if someone has an interference problem, we 
immediately swap them over to Alvarion 5.4 gear. It is more expensive, 
but we know we'll never have a service call after it's put in unless it 
gets hit by lightning or the customer wants to upgrade. We would have 
been wise to upgrade straight from the old stuff to 5.4. I'd still 
recommend the UBNT CPE for truly rural use.

Then MT is always making something wonky. A couple years ago, you could 
crash the MT with a SNMP query. Now, if you put an N card in and upgrade 
the firmware in your 433ah to 4.4, you might lose the ethernet ports. I 
stay 1-4 months behind on their firmware because it's a mystery what you 
might get. Changelogs show less than half of what they change. I do like 
them for basic routing and also use their gear for a few links. I think 
it's a step up from UBNT for ptp 802.11 based links. I also like MT 
because it's pretty low power use, which has practical value for solar 
sites or sites needing long battery backup. We don't have the time to 
tinker to use it for everything. We tried 900 with SR9 then XR9 and the 
reliability wasn't there compared to what we were accustomed to with 
Trango and Alvarion. 

Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff for 
service calls and time to repair for customers are often more important 
than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do spend 
more on payroll than radios, despit

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[jp]

On Mon, Jan 04, 2010 at 05:28:49PM -0600, Wallace Walcher wrote:
> Having built my WISP from scratch with my own resources and currently being
> debt free in my operations, I often wonder who the people are who so quickly
> classify Mikrotik and Ubiquity gear as trash.  I am making a very good
> living deploying such "trash".

I'm not ashamed of calling their bluff when they say something is 
"carrier class", and it's not even released yet and then has firmware 
their either sets the timing wrong to the point of destroying the link 
or doesn't do vlans, and the firmware isn't pulled offline because it's 
the best stuff available.

I've got a couple UBNT M links up and like them, and believe it has a 
future. I just can't put my whole business on the line while they refine 
a product. It is wise and irrestible to try the stuff though.

I've got a downtown network of UBNT 802.11 gear, and the nanos and 
bullets just can't handle the interference as I'd like. It was intended 
to be an upgrade from the breezecom FH gear which was slow but reliable. 
The UBNT is faster, but less reliable in the presence of local 
interference. Now, if someone has an interference problem, we 
immediately swap them over to Alvarion 5.4 gear. It is more expensive, 
but we know we'll never have a service call after it's put in unless it 
gets hit by lightning or the customer wants to upgrade. We would have 
been wise to upgrade straight from the old stuff to 5.4. I'd still 
recommend the UBNT CPE for truly rural use.

Then MT is always making something wonky. A couple years ago, you could 
crash the MT with a SNMP query. Now, if you put an N card in and upgrade 
the firmware in your 433ah to 4.4, you might lose the ethernet ports. I 
stay 1-4 months behind on their firmware because it's a mystery what you 
might get. Changelogs show less than half of what they change. I do like 
them for basic routing and also use their gear for a few links. I think 
it's a step up from UBNT for ptp 802.11 based links. I also like MT 
because it's pretty low power use, which has practical value for solar 
sites or sites needing long battery backup. We don't have the time to 
tinker to use it for everything. We tried 900 with SR9 then XR9 and the 
reliability wasn't there compared to what we were accustomed to with 
Trango and Alvarion. 

Once you get to say 1000+ customers, things like having the staff for 
service calls and time to repair for customers are often more important 
than the brand of radio or the original cost of the radio. We do spend 
more on payroll than radios, despite deploying lots of expensive gear. 
Keeping CPE prices down is appreciated and important, but less tangible 
ongoing management, troubleshooting, and repair costs must also be 
considered. The reduction in support costs isn't an expection, it's a 
reality and requirement in many situations.

A minor glitch that affects a few customers outside of town is not a big 
deal, but if the glitch requires half a day on the road or requires 
aircraft, boats, snowcats, or sleds, it could cost hundreds of dollars 
and mess up a lot of customers.

I'd fear for my welfare if everything was built on UBNT and MT though.

We use Alvarion 900, 2.4 (not going forward), 5.4, 5.8, Trango (lots of 
900 installed, but not going forward), MT, UBNT, and now Solectek and 
Radwin.

My WISP is pretty low debt 100% privately owned and financed, and we 
often choose higher end equipment. You do get what you pay for, but of 
course there are diminshing returns the higher end you go.


> My perception is they are either people who are not spending their own money
> - they are working for the investor, or possibly borrowing or leasing the
> equipment, or they are a vendor promoting their own high margin goods.
> Those that are WISPs seem to have the perception that it is better to
> install higher cost equipment, no matter what the cost, if it will provide
> them an expected reduction in support costs.
> 
> What I have found in my area is that people who deploy such equipment have a
> very hard go of it, mainly because the replacement costs during the storm
> season eat their lunch.  My operational plan is different than some - I
> focus on residential customers on the outskirts of town that do not have
> access to Cable and DSL.  Those focusing on business accounts in cities
> would understandably have a different perspective.  But I feel very
> fortunate to have a sub $200 total CPE cost (sometimes sub $100) with the
> Mikrotik-type solution.
> 
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> 
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> 
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

-- 
/*
Jason Philbrook   |   Midcoast Internet Sol

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Wallace Walcher]

Having built my WISP from scratch with my own resources and currently being
debt free in my operations, I often wonder who the people are who so quickly
classify Mikrotik and Ubiquity gear as trash.  I am making a very good
living deploying such "trash".

My perception is they are either people who are not spending their own money
- they are working for the investor, or possibly borrowing or leasing the
equipment, or they are a vendor promoting their own high margin goods.
Those that are WISPs seem to have the perception that it is better to
install higher cost equipment, no matter what the cost, if it will provide
them an expected reduction in support costs.

What I have found in my area is that people who deploy such equipment have a
very hard go of it, mainly because the replacement costs during the storm
season eat their lunch.  My operational plan is different than some - I
focus on residential customers on the outskirts of town that do not have
access to Cable and DSL.  Those focusing on business accounts in cities
would understandably have a different perspective.  But I feel very
fortunate to have a sub $200 total CPE cost (sometimes sub $100) with the
Mikrotik-type solution.



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Tom Sharples]

Comments inline below:


>I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs. Motorola 
>/ WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to me that it's 
>like comparing something that's hypothetical and "looks good on paper" and 
>"hoping" that it will actually work

I don't think Microtik and Ubiquiti are particularly similar - they 
certainly seem to have a very different philosophy and probably should be 
dicussed separately.

I've also had some reservations about the integrated Ubiquiti units (see my 
earlier postings).  But I have to say that those look primarily like 
"teething issues," likely to be largely addressed within the next year to 18 
months, rather than anything fundamentally wrong with Ubiquiti's technical 
approach to their integrated radios.

>
> Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will give me 
> a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 -- but has anyone 
> actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a profitable business?

Probably not yet. But that's coming.

>
> Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have had to 
> upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact that these 
> systems don't scale
>
> The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several thousand 
> customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air Network Mesh 
> infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million building out

Our largest WISP (around 1200 customers) is using Ubiquiti that way too, at 
present. But they are strongly requesting that, instead of fully-integrated 
outdoor mesh radios, we develop an outdoor network appliance running our 
Layer 3 mesh software and related ISP functions, into which they could plug 
one or more separate Ubiquiti interated radios. That actually makes a fair 
amount of sense - in the ISP market we clearly can't compete at Layer 2 with 
Ubiquiti's astonishing price-points.

>
> It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP debates from 
> a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was "free" while a Broadsoft 
> platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of tons of Broadsoft 
> providers who support tens of thousands of customers for hosted PBX, and 
> the only guy I know doing it on Asterisk ended up spending over $500k 
> hiring a custom programming team in Russia to rebuild the system for him 
> from scratch (he was joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been 
> cheaper and a lot easier to just buy a Broadsoft)

Comparing software to hardware here - apples and oranges. Ubiquiti clearly 
has shown the ability to bring unbelievably low cost production with decent 
(and improving) quality to bear on this market, and unless they really step 
in it, their production problems will be solved eventually. I probably would 
have done things a little differently - e.g. pricing the offerings so that 
there's a reasonable margin even if you don't completely take over the 
world, which their current pricing model probably requires to get to a 
$100MM+ / yr company - but you can't argue with their success.

Tom S.


>
> I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =)
>
> -Charles
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/






No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.431 / Virus Database: 270.14.123/2594 - Release Date: 12/30/09 
07:27:00




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Gino Villarini]

>Not sure what difference this makes, uses the same amount of frequency 
>and both polls are in the same antenna.

You probability of finding clean spectrum on both polarities drops and
your collocation options using cross polarity and channel separation
drops too

>Why? There is no difference in colocation with Airmax vs. non-airmax,
do 
>you think each chain needs it's own channel or something? They don't.

I do know they don't need diff channels, but as stated above, you are
very limited on channel selections, and finding the right channel on
sector A, means that you limit yourself on sector B, C and D. (thinking
you are using 4 sectors per site) Then extrapolate that to 4 to 6
adjacent tower sites and youll be dancing the channel change tune for a
while.  What happens inf 6 months down the road a Tsunami PTP Link kills
2 of your channels on 1 Tower 



Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
787.273.4143

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Baird
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 1:23 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Gino Villarini wrote:
> You need to take in consideration that the Ubnt AirMax true data  
> thoughtput is about 70 Mbps in highest modulation and under very low  
> noise scenario
>   
Ok, well that's probably a good estimate w/20 mhz channel width.
> Now take on consideration that it uses dual pol to achieve this so you

> limit your colocation options
>   
Not sure what difference this makes, uses the same amount of frequency 
and both polls are in the same antenna.
> Taking that in account, expect 30 to 50 Mbps  In a true field  
> deployment under average noise conditions
>   
Ok, what is wrong with that, sounds great.
> And you can only colocate 3 or 4 aps per site, then try to growth your

> footprint
>   
Why? There is no difference in colocation with Airmax vs. non-airmax, do

you think each chain needs it's own channel or something? They don't.
> Compare that to the Canopy 430 line with 45 Mbps per ap with gps sync

> and   A very broad channel reuse facility
>
> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>
>
> On Dec 31, 2009, at 11:20 AM, "Randy Cosby" 
wrote:
>
>   
>> Let me throw a couple  "devil's advocate" arguments into the mix.
>>
>> The claim was made that the advantage of Motorola is that you can get
>> 100 subs per AP, while a Mikrotik or UBNT solution might get 30-40.
>> Based on these assumptions, could the argument not be made that a
year
>> from now, a 100-subscriber Motorola AP with 14 megabit total capacity
>> will be much more over-utilized than a Mikrotik 14meg solution with  
>> only
>> 30-40 subscribers?  I'm seeing this already on older Trango AP's with
>> 70-80 subscribers.  10meg at 80 subscribers is just too much
>> oversubscription with today's usage patterns.
>>
>> Then you can also look at the fact that the mikrotik can do the 14
meg
>> in 10mhz bands, adding more efficiency (yes, gps sync helps even  
>> more, I
>> know!).  Then you look at a UBNT offering with, let's say 50 megabit

>> in
>> 20mhz with just 40 subscribers.  You may get more life and get
further
>> along the growth curve with UBNT.  Will it really scale to even 40?
>> Dunno.. Sure would like to hear of real world experience, but that  
>> will
>> obviously take time.
>>
>> Randy
>>
>> On 12/31/2009 7:48 AM, Rubens Kuhl wrote:
>> 
>>> Ubiquiti's move into the large scale market, whether it will work or
>>> not, is just happening now with AirMax. It slows the overall
>>> performance to much less than 150+ Mbps, but it might get to the
>>> 100/user per-AP scale. 3 or 6 months from now we will know of either
>>> large deployments or #ubntfail stories.
>>>
>>>
>>> Rubens
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Forwarded message --
>>> From: Charles Wu
>>> Date: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:33 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how
>>> Ubiquiti was "changing the game" with their new $75 AP that does 150
>>> Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of
>>> the world who still don't "get it" with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up
>>> until now, it's been my experience that this is an "apples to  
>>> oranges"
>>> debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that b

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Michael Baird]

Gino Villarini wrote:
> You need to take in consideration that the Ubnt AirMax true data  
> thoughtput is about 70 Mbps in highest modulation and under very low  
> noise scenario
>   
Ok, well that's probably a good estimate w/20 mhz channel width.
> Now take on consideration that it uses dual pol to achieve this so you  
> limit your colocation options
>   
Not sure what difference this makes, uses the same amount of frequency 
and both polls are in the same antenna.
> Taking that in account, expect 30 to 50 Mbps  In a true field  
> deployment under average noise conditions
>   
Ok, what is wrong with that, sounds great.
> And you can only colocate 3 or 4 aps per site, then try to growth your  
> footprint
>   
Why? There is no difference in colocation with Airmax vs. non-airmax, do 
you think each chain needs it's own channel or something? They don't.
> Compare that to the Canopy 430 line with 45 Mbps per ap with gps sync  
> and   A very broad channel reuse facility
>
> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>
>
> On Dec 31, 2009, at 11:20 AM, "Randy Cosby"  wrote:
>
>   
>> Let me throw a couple  "devil's advocate" arguments into the mix.
>>
>> The claim was made that the advantage of Motorola is that you can get
>> 100 subs per AP, while a Mikrotik or UBNT solution might get 30-40.
>> Based on these assumptions, could the argument not be made that a year
>> from now, a 100-subscriber Motorola AP with 14 megabit total capacity
>> will be much more over-utilized than a Mikrotik 14meg solution with  
>> only
>> 30-40 subscribers?  I'm seeing this already on older Trango AP's with
>> 70-80 subscribers.  10meg at 80 subscribers is just too much
>> oversubscription with today's usage patterns.
>>
>> Then you can also look at the fact that the mikrotik can do the 14 meg
>> in 10mhz bands, adding more efficiency (yes, gps sync helps even  
>> more, I
>> know!).  Then you look at a UBNT offering with, let's say 50 megabit  
>> in
>> 20mhz with just 40 subscribers.  You may get more life and get further
>> along the growth curve with UBNT.  Will it really scale to even 40?
>> Dunno.. Sure would like to hear of real world experience, but that  
>> will
>> obviously take time.
>>
>> Randy
>>
>> On 12/31/2009 7:48 AM, Rubens Kuhl wrote:
>> 
>>> Ubiquiti's move into the large scale market, whether it will work or
>>> not, is just happening now with AirMax. It slows the overall
>>> performance to much less than 150+ Mbps, but it might get to the
>>> 100/user per-AP scale. 3 or 6 months from now we will know of either
>>> large deployments or #ubntfail stories.
>>>
>>>
>>> Rubens
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Forwarded message --
>>> From: Charles Wu
>>> Date: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:33 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how
>>> Ubiquiti was "changing the game" with their new $75 AP that does 150
>>> Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of
>>> the world who still don't "get it" with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up
>>> until now, it's been my experience that this is an "apples to  
>>> oranges"
>>> debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink
>>> has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?)
>>>
>>> That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up
>>> and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how  
>>> to
>>> do things better/faster/cheaper...
>>>
>>>
>>> --- 
>>> --- 
>>> --- 
>>> --- 
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> --- 
>>> --- 
>>> --- 
>>> --- 
>>> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>
>>>   
>> -- 
>> Randy Cosby
>> Vice President
>> InfoWest, Inc
>>
>> 435-674-0165 x 2010
>>
>> http://w

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Gino Villarini]

You need to take in consideration that the Ubnt AirMax true data  
thoughtput is about 70 Mbps in highest modulation and under very low  
noise scenario.

Now take on consideration that it uses dual pol to achieve this so you  
limit your colocation options

Taking that in account, expect 30 to 50 Mbps  In a true field  
deployment under average noise conditions

And you can only colocate 3 or 4 aps per site, then try to growth your  
footprint

Compare that to the Canopy 430 line with 45 Mbps per ap with gps sync  
and   A very broad channel reuse facility

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 31, 2009, at 11:20 AM, "Randy Cosby"  wrote:

> Let me throw a couple  "devil's advocate" arguments into the mix.
>
> The claim was made that the advantage of Motorola is that you can get
> 100 subs per AP, while a Mikrotik or UBNT solution might get 30-40.
> Based on these assumptions, could the argument not be made that a year
> from now, a 100-subscriber Motorola AP with 14 megabit total capacity
> will be much more over-utilized than a Mikrotik 14meg solution with  
> only
> 30-40 subscribers?  I'm seeing this already on older Trango AP's with
> 70-80 subscribers.  10meg at 80 subscribers is just too much
> oversubscription with today's usage patterns.
>
> Then you can also look at the fact that the mikrotik can do the 14 meg
> in 10mhz bands, adding more efficiency (yes, gps sync helps even  
> more, I
> know!).  Then you look at a UBNT offering with, let's say 50 megabit  
> in
> 20mhz with just 40 subscribers.  You may get more life and get further
> along the growth curve with UBNT.  Will it really scale to even 40?
> Dunno.. Sure would like to hear of real world experience, but that  
> will
> obviously take time.
>
> Randy
>
> On 12/31/2009 7:48 AM, Rubens Kuhl wrote:
>> Ubiquiti's move into the large scale market, whether it will work or
>> not, is just happening now with AirMax. It slows the overall
>> performance to much less than 150+ Mbps, but it might get to the
>> 100/user per-AP scale. 3 or 6 months from now we will know of either
>> large deployments or #ubntfail stories.
>>
>>
>> Rubens
>>
>>
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: Charles Wu
>> Date: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:33 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>> To: WISPA General List
>>
>>
>>
>> Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how
>> Ubiquiti was "changing the game" with their new $75 AP that does 150
>> Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of
>> the world who still don't "get it" with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up
>> until now, it's been my experience that this is an "apples to  
>> oranges"
>> debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink
>> has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?)
>>
>> That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up
>> and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how  
>> to
>> do things better/faster/cheaper...
>>
>>
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
> -- 
> Randy Cosby
> Vice President
> InfoWest, Inc
>
> 435-674-0165 x 2010
>
> http://www.infowest.com/
>
> "Letting off steam always produces more heat than light." - Neal A.  
> Maxwell
>
>
>
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Mike Hammett]

I know that in some cases it's appropriate and I've said this every time 
this "discussion" comes up, but running this holy grail of 100 customers per 
AP is just rubbish and will become more rubbish as time goes on.  These 
lists alternate between the same two threads almost indefinitely.  One is 
that everything but Canopy is horrible, while the other is that we don't 
have enough bandwidth to provide current, much less next-generation 
services.

Low bandwidth wireless systems will not work with these 100 users per AP as 
NetFlix and similar services increase adoption.  Wireless systems will have 
to support hundreds of megabits per second if we're going to have 100 users 
on an AP, not the 40 the latest and greatest Canopy supports.  If UBNT can 
only do 40 customers out of it's 100 megabit PtMP AirMax system, great! 
When people fire up their 5 meg HD NetFlix streams, everything still works.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Rubens Kuhl" 
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2009 8:48 AM
To: 
Subject: [WISPA]  Wimax gear

> Ubiquiti's move into the large scale market, whether it will work or
> not, is just happening now with AirMax. It slows the overall
> performance to much less than 150+ Mbps, but it might get to the
> 100/user per-AP scale. 3 or 6 months from now we will know of either
> large deployments or #ubntfail stories.
>
>
> Rubens
>
>
> -- Forwarded message ------
> From: Charles Wu 
> Date: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
> To: WISPA General List 
>
>
>
> Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how
> Ubiquiti was "changing the game" with their new $75 AP that does 150
> Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of
> the world who still don't "get it" with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up
> until now, it's been my experience that this is an "apples to oranges"
> debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink
> has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?)
>
> That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up
> and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how to
> do things better/faster/cheaper...
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Michael Baird]

My most populated UBNT has 43 people on it (too much), RTS 768 on each 
client radio, the CPU utilization averages 32%, peak of 68%, no 
complaints of performance. Our AP's do very little however no routing/no 
nat/no auth, traffic shaping/auth is done at the IP level on the 
redback. I plan to swap the radios out at this tower for BulletM series 
radios in non-airmax mode as they have 3 times the CPU horsepower, and I 
should be able to get close to 100 per sector on my legacy towers I believe.

Regards
Michael Baird
> Let me throw a couple  "devil's advocate" arguments into the mix.
>
> The claim was made that the advantage of Motorola is that you can get 
> 100 subs per AP, while a Mikrotik or UBNT solution might get 30-40.  
> Based on these assumptions, could the argument not be made that a year 
> from now, a 100-subscriber Motorola AP with 14 megabit total capacity 
> will be much more over-utilized than a Mikrotik 14meg solution with only 
> 30-40 subscribers?  I'm seeing this already on older Trango AP's with 
> 70-80 subscribers.  10meg at 80 subscribers is just too much 
> oversubscription with today's usage patterns.
>
> Then you can also look at the fact that the mikrotik can do the 14 meg 
> in 10mhz bands, adding more efficiency (yes, gps sync helps even more, I 
> know!).  Then you look at a UBNT offering with, let's say 50 megabit in 
> 20mhz with just 40 subscribers.  You may get more life and get further 
> along the growth curve with UBNT.  Will it really scale to even 40?  
> Dunno.. Sure would like to hear of real world experience, but that will 
> obviously take time.
>
> Randy
>
> On 12/31/2009 7:48 AM, Rubens Kuhl wrote:
>   
>> Ubiquiti's move into the large scale market, whether it will work or
>> not, is just happening now with AirMax. It slows the overall
>> performance to much less than 150+ Mbps, but it might get to the
>> 100/user per-AP scale. 3 or 6 months from now we will know of either
>> large deployments or #ubntfail stories.
>>
>>
>> Rubens
>>
>>
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: Charles Wu
>> Date: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:33 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>> To: WISPA General List
>>
>>
>>
>> Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how
>> Ubiquiti was "changing the game" with their new $75 AP that does 150
>> Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of
>> the world who still don't "get it" with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up
>> until now, it's been my experience that this is an "apples to oranges"
>> debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink
>> has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?)
>>
>> That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up
>> and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how to
>> do things better/faster/cheaper...
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>> 
>
>   




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Michael Baird]

We've just built out a new tower with Ubiquity M's in 2.4 w/airmax, we 
will be doing voice across it. We've been using the M's as client radios 
for several months the firmware is at a good base right now I think. 
Once we advertise this tower to our dialup base we will quickly test the 
scalability.

We've been extremely happy with the pre-airmax gear, low failure rate, 
nice config/featureset, solid OS, tremendous support/customer 
interaction, not to mention the excellent ROI.

This is great for rural, but we want to move into some of the cities in 
our area that is why we are looking at Wimax. Ubiquity doesn't play in 
3.65 yet and it won't for a while and we need to move quickly, leasing 
loops from the LEC's is killing our wireline profit.

Regards
Michael Baird
> Ubiquiti's move into the large scale market, whether it will work or
> not, is just happening now with AirMax. It slows the overall
> performance to much less than 150+ Mbps, but it might get to the
> 100/user per-AP scale. 3 or 6 months from now we will know of either
> large deployments or #ubntfail stories.
>
>
> Rubens
>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Charles Wu 
> Date: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
> To: WISPA General List 
>
>
>
> Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how
> Ubiquiti was "changing the game" with their new $75 AP that does 150
> Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of
> the world who still don't "get it" with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up
> until now, it's been my experience that this is an "apples to oranges"
> debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink
> has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?)
>
> That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up
> and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how to
> do things better/faster/cheaper...
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>   




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Randy Cosby]

Let me throw a couple  "devil's advocate" arguments into the mix.

The claim was made that the advantage of Motorola is that you can get 
100 subs per AP, while a Mikrotik or UBNT solution might get 30-40.  
Based on these assumptions, could the argument not be made that a year 
from now, a 100-subscriber Motorola AP with 14 megabit total capacity 
will be much more over-utilized than a Mikrotik 14meg solution with only 
30-40 subscribers?  I'm seeing this already on older Trango AP's with 
70-80 subscribers.  10meg at 80 subscribers is just too much 
oversubscription with today's usage patterns.

Then you can also look at the fact that the mikrotik can do the 14 meg 
in 10mhz bands, adding more efficiency (yes, gps sync helps even more, I 
know!).  Then you look at a UBNT offering with, let's say 50 megabit in 
20mhz with just 40 subscribers.  You may get more life and get further 
along the growth curve with UBNT.  Will it really scale to even 40?  
Dunno.. Sure would like to hear of real world experience, but that will 
obviously take time.

Randy

On 12/31/2009 7:48 AM, Rubens Kuhl wrote:
> Ubiquiti's move into the large scale market, whether it will work or
> not, is just happening now with AirMax. It slows the overall
> performance to much less than 150+ Mbps, but it might get to the
> 100/user per-AP scale. 3 or 6 months from now we will know of either
> large deployments or #ubntfail stories.
>
>
> Rubens
>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Charles Wu
> Date: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
> To: WISPA General List
>
>
>
> Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how
> Ubiquiti was "changing the game" with their new $75 AP that does 150
> Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of
> the world who still don't "get it" with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up
> until now, it's been my experience that this is an "apples to oranges"
> debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink
> has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?)
>
> That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up
> and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how to
> do things better/faster/cheaper...
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>

-- 
Randy Cosby
Vice President
InfoWest, Inc

435-674-0165 x 2010

http://www.infowest.com/

"Letting off steam always produces more heat than light." - Neal A. Maxwell




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

[WISPA] Wimax gear

[Rubens Kuhl]

Ubiquiti's move into the large scale market, whether it will work or
not, is just happening now with AirMax. It slows the overall
performance to much less than 150+ Mbps, but it might get to the
100/user per-AP scale. 3 or 6 months from now we will know of either
large deployments or #ubntfail stories.


Rubens


-- Forwarded message --
From: Charles Wu 
Date: Thu, Dec 31, 2009 at 2:33 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
To: WISPA General List 



Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how
Ubiquiti was "changing the game" with their new $75 AP that does 150
Mb or something (as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of
the world who still don't "get it" with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up
until now, it's been my experience that this is an "apples to oranges"
debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that belkin or dlink
has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time now?)

That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up
and share your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how to
do things better/faster/cheaper...



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear - licensed bands btw

[Matt Liotta]

Many of those licenses had serious restrictions, which is why the auction 
reverse was so low in the first place.

-Matt

On Dec 31, 2009, at 1:24 AM, Charles Wu wrote:

> Speaking of which, did anyone notice the results of the latest BRS Auction 
> (#86)
> 
> Licenses went for an average of $0.03 / MHz POP
> 
> That means if 60 MHz covering 100,000 people (as defined by Census 2000 
> numbers) would have gone for $180k -- with the small business 35% credit - 
> that means a WISP would've paid $117k for that spectrum
> 
> While $117k is nothing to sneeze at, it's just worth noting that getting a 
> license is not something unreasonable or unobtainable for the "small guy"
> 
> -Charles
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
> 
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> 
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> 
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear - licensed bands btw

[Charles Wu]

Speaking of which, did anyone notice the results of the latest BRS Auction (#86)

Licenses went for an average of $0.03 / MHz POP

That means if 60 MHz covering 100,000 people (as defined by Census 2000 
numbers) would have gone for $180k -- with the small business 35% credit - that 
means a WISP would've paid $117k for that spectrum

While $117k is nothing to sneeze at, it's just worth noting that getting a 
license is not something unreasonable or unobtainable for the "small guy"

-Charles






WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Faisal Imtiaz]

Charles, 
I don't think that is the point that is being made. While you are correct
with your this is a 'apples to oranges' comparison, it is hard to ignore the
very fact that when folks such as Ubiquity enter the market place, they end
up causing a 'shake down' for everyone, forcing the other mfg. to either
really raise the bar (Product performance / pricing) or move down.

We have seen this many a times in the last 15 years, such things do not
happen overnight and do take time... Look at Linksys They challenged the
'incumbent' networking equipment mfg. many don't exist any more, and today
Linksys is owned and operated by Cisco Regardless of the fact that you
like or dislike linksys products, it is impossible to deny the impact they
have made in the networking equipment market place.

Just like the opensource folks are doing to established software vendors

So here is my prediction Mid-market (Price/performance) mfg. will have a
tough time surviving in the wireless market place... The Current established
High End players will have to decide either come down in their price
preformance or go UP towards the High Price range...

My guess is that the cost of Hardware mfg. is about the same for all (give
or take), but it is the cost of development and QC that makes the
difference...Time and Time again we have seen that folks are willing to put
up with less quality when the cost comes down. Why should it be different
this time ?

It is interesting to see this conversation in a group of folks who came into
being, because of 'innovative' low cost equipment mfg.

One a separate note:- 
Looking at the Wireline Broadband industry's development. The smaller
operators demonstated a viable marketplace for Internet Access...using
'disruptive' gear... And  afterwards, the larger operators stepped in the
make things work at a whole different scale...I am not sure how many of us
here realize that the equipment handling the wire line networks today
(capacity wise) did not exist 10 years ago, some of the larger routers did
not exist even 5 years ago..There are whole product lines (from
Cisco/Nortel/Alcatel etc. which are custom built just for the
Incumbents.simply because there are no other large customers who could
use these types of devices...

Why should the Wirless industry be any different ?
BTW Just 5 years ago, Motorola did not have a Reference customer with
5000 + subscribers...(they themselves did not know if the Canopy system was
going to scale to that level)...But things change...



Faisal Imtiaz
Computer Office Solutions Inc. /SnappyDSL.net
Ph: (305) 663-5518 x 232
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Charles Wu
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

>We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as injection 
>radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems.  Of 
>course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end 
>performance.

But there's a huge difference between "using a few here and there" and
"relying on things as a platform for wide-scale operations"

Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how Ubiquiti
was "changing the game" with their new $75 AP that does 150 Mb or something
(as compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of the world who still
don't "get it" with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up until now, it's been my
experience that this is an "apples to oranges" debate (heck, couldn't I make
the same argument that belkin or dlink has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at
Best Buy for some time now?)

The last guy I know who tried this (actually a WISP with ~5k customers who
might be reading this thread =) decided to go "all-out" with Mikrotik --
sure, the APs cost $200 or something, but he found that contention limited
him to 20-30 customers / AP, while an "slower and 5x more expensive" Canopy
system allowed him to put 100+ customer / AP -- in his case, one of the
things that factored into the decision was tower rent

Now, this was probably a year ago and things may have changed...

I am not saying that ubiquity / mikrotik aren't good solutions -- we see
nice applications for such units to "fill in gaps" or "extend the network"
where terrain is challenging and there are "pockets" of small density (e.g.,
a neighborhood cul-de-sac or something similar with 3 or 4 additional
people) -- and I'd probably wager that almost every WISP -
Canopy/Alvarion/WiMAX/etc has deployed a few nanos/locos/etc in such a
manner fashion, but that's a far different cry than using it as a primary
platform of choice for delivering service to thousands of subscribers

That being said, if someo

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Charles Wu]

>We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as injection  
>radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems.  Of  
>course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end  
>performance.

But there's a huge difference between "using a few here and there" and "relying 
on things as a platform for wide-scale operations"

Let's go back to the original thread -- we were talking about how Ubiquiti was 
"changing the game" with their new $75 AP that does 150 Mb or something (as 
compared to the Alvarion/Motorolas/WiMAX guys of the world who still don't "get 
it" with their $3/5/10k APs) -- up until now, it's been my experience that this 
is an "apples to oranges" debate (heck, couldn't I make the same argument that 
belkin or dlink has had a super-N mimo AP for $69 at Best Buy for some time 
now?)

The last guy I know who tried this (actually a WISP with ~5k customers who 
might be reading this thread =) decided to go "all-out" with Mikrotik -- sure, 
the APs cost $200 or something, but he found that contention limited him to 
20-30 customers / AP, while an "slower and 5x more expensive" Canopy system 
allowed him to put 100+ customer / AP -- in his case, one of the things that 
factored into the decision was tower rent

Now, this was probably a year ago and things may have changed...

I am not saying that ubiquity / mikrotik aren't good solutions -- we see nice 
applications for such units to "fill in gaps" or "extend the network" where 
terrain is challenging and there are "pockets" of small density (e.g., a 
neighborhood cul-de-sac or something similar with 3 or 4 additional people) -- 
and I'd probably wager that almost every WISP - Canopy/Alvarion/WiMAX/etc has 
deployed a few nanos/locos/etc in such a manner fashion, but that's a far 
different cry than using it as a primary platform of choice for delivering 
service to thousands of subscribers

That being said, if someone has built such a system, please pipe up and share 
your experiences -- I'm always interested in learning how to do things 
better/faster/cheaper...

-Charles

On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Charles Wu  wrote:

> I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs.  
> Motorola / WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to  
> me that it's like comparing something that's hypothetical and "looks  
> good on paper" and "hoping" that it will actually work
>
> Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will  
> give me a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 --  
> but has anyone actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a  
> profitable business?
>
> Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have  
> had to upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact  
> that these systems don't scale
>
> The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several  
> thousand customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air  
> Network Mesh infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million  
> building out
>
> It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP  
> debates from a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was "free"  
> while a Broadsoft platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of  
> tons of Broadsoft providers who support tens of thousands of  
> customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know doing it on  
> Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming  
> team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was  
> joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot  
> easier to just buy a Broadsoft)
>
> I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =)
>
> -Charles
>
>
>
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Jerry Richardson]

Here we go again.



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Ralph
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 5:15 PM
To: e...@wisp-router.com; WISPA General List
Cc: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Go ahead and live the dream then, but please don't homebuild your own  
gear and deploy it in any of my markets. We prefer certified products.

On Dec 30, 2009, at 8:10 PM, e...@wisp-router.com wrote:

> You can use MikroTik and be legal.
>
> Anyone say any different either don't understand the rules or  
> checked the approved certs or is just spreading FUD.
>
> /Eje
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Ralph 
> Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:05:50
> To: WISPA General List
> Cc: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as injection
> radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems.  Of
> course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end
> performance.
>
> Would not use Mikrotik for any RF due to our desire to stay legal.
>
> On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Charles Wu  wrote:
>
>> I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs.
>> Motorola / WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to
>> me that it's like comparing something that's hypothetical and "looks
>> good on paper" and "hoping" that it will actually work
>>
>> Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will
>> give me a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 --
>> but has anyone actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a
>> profitable business?
>>
>> Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have
>> had to upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact
>> that these systems don't scale
>>
>> The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several
>> thousand customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air
>> Network Mesh infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million
>> building out
>>
>> It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP
>> debates from a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was "free"
>> while a Broadsoft platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of
>> tons of Broadsoft providers who support tens of thousands of
>> customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know doing it on
>> Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming
>> team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was
>> joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot
>> easier to just buy a Broadsoft)
>>
>> I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =)
>>
>> -Charles
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Ralph]

Sorry. Dumb iPhone auto correction changed Tropos to tripod.  Lol

On Dec 30, 2009, at 8:05 PM, Ralph  wrote:

> We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as injection
> radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems.  Of
> course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end
> performance.
>
> Would not use Mikrotik for any RF due to our desire to stay legal.
>
> On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Charles Wu  wrote:
>
>> I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs.
>> Motorola / WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to
>> me that it's like comparing something that's hypothetical and "looks
>> good on paper" and "hoping" that it will actually work
>>
>> Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will
>> give me a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 --
>> but has anyone actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a
>> profitable business?
>>
>> Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have
>> had to upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact
>> that these systems don't scale
>>
>> The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several
>> thousand customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air
>> Network Mesh infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million
>> building out
>>
>> It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP
>> debates from a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was "free"
>> while a Broadsoft platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of
>> tons of Broadsoft providers who support tens of thousands of
>> customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know doing it on
>> Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming
>> team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was
>> joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot
>> easier to just buy a Broadsoft)
>>
>> I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =)
>>
>> -Charles
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
> ---
> ---
> ---
> ---
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> ---
> ---
> ---
> ---
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[D. Ryan Spott]

Hi RALPH!

ryan
On Dec 30, 2009, at 5:14 PM, Ralph wrote:

> Go ahead and live the dream then, but please don't homebuild your own
> gear and deploy it in any of my markets. We prefer certified products.
>
> On Dec 30, 2009, at 8:10 PM, e...@wisp-router.com wrote:
>
>> You can use MikroTik and be legal.
>>
>> Anyone say any different either don't understand the rules or
>> checked the approved certs or is just spreading FUD.
>>
>> /Eje
>> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Ralph 
>> Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:05:50
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Cc: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>
>> We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as  
>> injection
>> radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems.  Of
>> course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end
>> performance.
>>
>> Would not use Mikrotik for any RF due to our desire to stay legal.
>>
>> On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Charles Wu  wrote:
>>
>>> I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs.
>>> Motorola / WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to
>>> me that it's like comparing something that's hypothetical and "looks
>>> good on paper" and "hoping" that it will actually work
>>>
>>> Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will
>>> give me a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 --
>>> but has anyone actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a
>>> profitable business?
>>>
>>> Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have
>>> had to upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact
>>> that these systems don't scale
>>>
>>> The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several
>>> thousand customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air
>>> Network Mesh infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million
>>> building out
>>>
>>> It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP
>>> debates from a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was "free"
>>> while a Broadsoft platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of
>>> tons of Broadsoft providers who support tens of thousands of
>>> customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know doing it on
>>> Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming
>>> team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was
>>> joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot
>>> easier to just buy a Broadsoft)
>>>
>>> I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =)
>>>
>>> -Charles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Ralph]

Go ahead and live the dream then, but please don't homebuild your own  
gear and deploy it in any of my markets. We prefer certified products.

On Dec 30, 2009, at 8:10 PM, e...@wisp-router.com wrote:

> You can use MikroTik and be legal.
>
> Anyone say any different either don't understand the rules or  
> checked the approved certs or is just spreading FUD.
>
> /Eje
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Ralph 
> Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:05:50
> To: WISPA General List
> Cc: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as injection
> radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems.  Of
> course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end
> performance.
>
> Would not use Mikrotik for any RF due to our desire to stay legal.
>
> On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Charles Wu  wrote:
>
>> I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs.
>> Motorola / WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to
>> me that it's like comparing something that's hypothetical and "looks
>> good on paper" and "hoping" that it will actually work
>>
>> Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will
>> give me a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 --
>> but has anyone actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a
>> profitable business?
>>
>> Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have
>> had to upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact
>> that these systems don't scale
>>
>> The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several
>> thousand customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air
>> Network Mesh infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million
>> building out
>>
>> It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP
>> debates from a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was "free"
>> while a Broadsoft platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of
>> tons of Broadsoft providers who support tens of thousands of
>> customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know doing it on
>> Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming
>> team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was
>> joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot
>> easier to just buy a Broadsoft)
>>
>> I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =)
>>
>> -Charles
>>
>>
>>
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> ---
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[eje]

You can use MikroTik and be legal. 

Anyone say any different either don't understand the rules or checked the 
approved certs or is just spreading FUD. 

/Eje
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-Original Message-
From: Ralph 
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2009 20:05:50 
To: WISPA General List
Cc: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as injection  
radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems.  Of  
course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end  
performance.

Would not use Mikrotik for any RF due to our desire to stay legal.

On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Charles Wu  wrote:

> I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs.  
> Motorola / WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to  
> me that it's like comparing something that's hypothetical and "looks  
> good on paper" and "hoping" that it will actually work
>
> Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will  
> give me a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 --  
> but has anyone actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a  
> profitable business?
>
> Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have  
> had to upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact  
> that these systems don't scale
>
> The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several  
> thousand customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air  
> Network Mesh infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million  
> building out
>
> It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP  
> debates from a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was "free"  
> while a Broadsoft platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of  
> tons of Broadsoft providers who support tens of thousands of  
> customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know doing it on  
> Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming  
> team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was  
> joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot  
> easier to just buy a Broadsoft)
>
> I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =)
>
> -Charles
>
>
>
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Ralph]

We have successfuly used ubiquiti nano and power stations as injection  
radios for numerous tripod and cisco mesh systems. No problems.  Of  
course I have used canopy for it too- no real difference in the end  
performance.

Would not use Mikrotik for any RF due to our desire to stay legal.

On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Charles Wu  wrote:

> I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs.  
> Motorola / WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to  
> me that it's like comparing something that's hypothetical and "looks  
> good on paper" and "hoping" that it will actually work
>
> Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will  
> give me a Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 --  
> but has anyone actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a  
> profitable business?
>
> Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have  
> had to upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact  
> that these systems don't scale
>
> The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several  
> thousand customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air  
> Network Mesh infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million  
> building out
>
> It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP  
> debates from a couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was "free"  
> while a Broadsoft platform had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of  
> tons of Broadsoft providers who support tens of thousands of  
> customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know doing it on  
> Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming  
> team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was  
> joking to me that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot  
> easier to just buy a Broadsoft)
>
> I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =)
>
> -Charles
>
>
>
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Charles Wu]

I find these comparisons of products like Ubiquiti / Mikrotik vs. Motorola / 
WiMAX products to be somewhat unrealistic -- it seems to me that it's like 
comparing something that's hypothetical and "looks good on paper" and "hoping" 
that it will actually work

Here's my question; sure, on paper, the new Ubiquiti WHATEVER will give me a 
Gazillion Mbps with Beamforming and everything for $10 -- but has anyone 
actually made this stuff work and scaled it into a profitable business?

Many of the WISPs that I've talked to who gone down this path have had to 
upgrade / replace / retool their networks due to the fact that these systems 
don't scale

The one WISP that I know using Ubiquiti / Mikrotik with several thousand 
customers is only using them as endpoints on a Bel-Air Network Mesh 
infrastructure that they spent almost $1 million building out

It reminds me of the Asterisk vs. Broadsoft / Metaswitch VoIP debates from a 
couple of years back -- sure, Asterisk was "free" while a Broadsoft platform 
had an entry cost of $250k, but I know of tons of Broadsoft providers who 
support tens of thousands of customers for hosted PBX, and the only guy I know 
doing it on Asterisk ended up spending over $500k hiring a custom programming 
team in Russia to rebuild the system for him from scratch (he was joking to me 
that in hindsight, it would've been cheaper and a lot easier to just buy a 
Broadsoft)

I would like to be proven wrong here...so shoot =)

-Charles




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Charles Wu]

>If not... then I don't think a WISP (as we probably define it) is ever
>really going to be profitable with it. 

Off the top of my head, I know of 5 WISPs that are still deploy pre-WiMAX 
systems in the 2.5 GHz band and are doing quite nicely (and they aren't 
Clearwire / Digital Bridge type businesses where they're losing a ton of money)

The average size of these guys is about 7,000 wireless customers in their 
respective markets

In addition, when you dive into their financials, while their up-front CAPEX is 
significantly higher (due to the overbuild model of most 2.5 GHz systems) -- 
their operational and maintenance costs are significantly lower due to the fact 
that

1. They're not constantly dealing with interference and all the other "gotchas" 
that occur with Part 15
2. Many of them are able to utilize self-installs due to drastically increased 
power levels

>But what about Motorola's new product?  Remember it's a "fixed" 802.16e, so
>you don't get the benefits of mobility, no indoor CPE's are planned as far
>as I know, but it is supposed to pay off in NLOS situations (which is
>anecdotal until we can get gear on a tower and test).

There's actually 2 variants of this -- a fixed 802.16e that operates in 3.65, 
and their mobile product that operates in 2.5/2.3

-Charles



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:56 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

> I'd say the question boils down to who's going to foot the bill for the
deployment -- you or the government =)


With or without government stimulus I'm curious of the lists' general
consensus on whether or not WiMAX is worthwhile investment in this 'war' of
LTE vs WiMAX. Having Uncle Sam foot the bill on a deployment definitely
lowers / removes the financial barrier, but doesn't really matter if
deploying WiMAX is a foolish endeavor from the get-go due to lack of
customer demand or vendors ceasing development.

I believe WiMAX has an opportunity to be commercially viable at least for a
couple of years, and I don't see any reason to not take advantage of that
fact. But, what do I know.

Consider this a question solely for the sake of debate.

--
Blake Covarrubias




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Philip Dorr]

the equivalent would a x86 based mikrotik with 9 mini-pci slots (3
each for 2.4, 3.65, and 5.8), 4 gigbit wired interfaces, a gbic port,
and running the dude

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 3:29 PM, Patrick Leary  wrote:
> Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I can
> go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer
> with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche
> or Corvette!  ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old Freewave
> 900 MHz hopper?
>
>
> Patrick Leary
> Aperto Networks
> 813.426.4230 mobile
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Gino Villarini
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> Funny
>
> But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW
>
> Gino A. Villarini
> g...@aeronetpr.com
> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
> 787.273.4143
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
> To: 'WISPA General List'
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh
>
> http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm
>
> Daniel White
> 3-dB Networks
> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
> dan...@3-db.net
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Hammett
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the
>
> right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the
> Porsche
>
> is 35x more expensive.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Gino Villarini" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Cc: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
>> Tom
>>
>> ROTFL
>>
>> You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e
>>
>> That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche
>>
>> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>>
>>
>> On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, "Tom DeReggi" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
>>> here for the long haul.
>>>> From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
>>>> products
>>> on their way.
>>>
>>> No problem with the $350 CPE level.
>>>
>>> But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.
>>>
>>> The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is
>>> not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say,
>>> very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher
>>> capacity.
>>> Its all
>>> opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
>>> antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today
>>> than their legacy components were when they were designed).
>>>
>>> I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/
>
>>> price concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps
>>> was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the
>>> cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the
>>> new technology.
>>> This is
>>> from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as
>>> well as technology advancement.
>>>
>>> I'd pose the same arguements
>>>
>>> Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
>>> tough
>>> call.
>>>
>>> Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP,
> simply
>>> because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create
> noise,
>>> before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from
>>> calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.
>>>
>>> But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage
>>> line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market.
>>>
>>> Tom DeReggi
>>> R

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Jerry Richardson]

no worries.

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:57 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Hey, we are all winding down from a long year...


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Jerry Richardson
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:48 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Are we still talking about WiMax?

Me thinks this thread hath strayed.

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:47 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Good point Matt, except for dropping the topand 3x the money! But as
a true ragtop lover (I've had 5 over the years), it is hard for me to
not have one. Gotta get my vitamin D somehow.


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:42 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

A Porsche Cayenne could probably handle it, plus do about 140mph.

I almost got a used one last spring, but my wife vetoed it.   Had a lot
of fun on the take it home overnight test drive though.  :^)

I'm personally going to wait for the BWM X6s to start showing up on the
used market.   At my current pace, I should be able to get a 2008 X6 in
about, 2020 or so.

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com


Patrick Leary wrote:
> Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I
> can go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my
> trailer with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a

> Porsche or Corvette!  ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an
> old Freewave 900 MHz hopper?
>
>
> Patrick Leary
> Aperto Networks
> 813.426.4230 mobile
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
> On Behalf Of Gino Villarini
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> Funny
>
> But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW
>
> Gino A. Villarini
> g...@aeronetpr.com
> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
> 787.273.4143
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
> On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
> To: 'WISPA General List'
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh
>
> http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.ht
> m
>
> Daniel White
> 3-dB Networks
> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
> dan...@3-db.net
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
> On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in
> the
>
> right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the
> Porsche
>
> is 35x more expensive.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Gino Villarini" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Cc: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
>
>> Tom
>>
>> ROTFL
>>
>> You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e
>>
>> That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche
>>
>> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>>
>>
>> On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, "Tom DeReggi"
>> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
>>> here for the long haul.
>>>
>>>> From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
>>>> products
>>>>
>>> on their way.
>>>
>>> No problem with the $350 CPE level.
>>>
>>> But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.
>>>
>>> The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is

>>> not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say,
>>> very insignificant compared to the 

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Terry Hickey]

funny I figured most people on this list would prefer "American Made" 
 me I'll take my Ford Expedition and my Harley for fun

- Original Message - 
From: "Gino Villarini" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Cc: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


> For that i have my Nissan Pathfinder
>
> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>
>
> On Dec 30, 2009, at 5:35 PM, "Patrick Leary" 
> wrote:
>
>> Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I
>> can
>> go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer
>> with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche
>> or Corvette!  ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old
>> Freewave
>> 900 MHz hopper?
>>
>>
>> Patrick Leary
>> Aperto Networks
>> 813.426.4230 mobile
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Gino Villarini
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>
>> Funny
>>
>> But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW
>>
>> Gino A. Villarini
>> g...@aeronetpr.com
>> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
>> 787.273.4143
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
>> To: 'WISPA General List'
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>
>> Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh
>>
>> http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/
>> index.htm
>>
>> Daniel White
>> 3-dB Networks
>> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
>> dan...@3-db.net
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Mike Hammett
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>
>> I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in
>> the
>>
>> right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the
>> Porsche
>>
>> is 35x more expensive.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Gino Villarini" 
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Cc: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> ROTFL
>>>
>>> You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e
>>>
>>> That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche
>>>
>>> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, "Tom DeReggi"
>>> 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
>>>> here for the long haul.
>>>>> From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
>>>>> products
>>>> on their way.
>>>>
>>>> No problem with the $350 CPE level.
>>>>
>>>> But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.
>>>>
>>>> The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is
>>>> not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say,
>>>> very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher
>>>> capacity.
>>>> Its all
>>>> opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
>>>> antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today
>>>> than their legacy components were when they were designed).
>>>>
>>>> I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU
>>>> speed/
>>
>>>> price concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps
>>>> was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the
>>>> cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the
>>>> new technology.
>>>> This is
>>>> from both 

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Patrick Leary]

Hey, we are all winding down from a long year... 


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Jerry Richardson
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:48 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Are we still talking about WiMax?

Me thinks this thread hath strayed.

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:47 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Good point Matt, except for dropping the topand 3x the money! But as
a true ragtop lover (I've had 5 over the years), it is hard for me to
not have one. Gotta get my vitamin D somehow.


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:42 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

A Porsche Cayenne could probably handle it, plus do about 140mph.

I almost got a used one last spring, but my wife vetoed it.   Had a lot
of fun on the take it home overnight test drive though.  :^)

I'm personally going to wait for the BWM X6s to start showing up on the
used market.   At my current pace, I should be able to get a 2008 X6 in
about, 2020 or so.

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com


Patrick Leary wrote:
> Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I 
> can go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my 
> trailer with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a

> Porsche or Corvette!  ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an 
> old Freewave 900 MHz hopper?
>
>
> Patrick Leary
> Aperto Networks
> 813.426.4230 mobile
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
> On Behalf Of Gino Villarini
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> Funny
>
> But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW
>
> Gino A. Villarini
> g...@aeronetpr.com
> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
> 787.273.4143
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
> On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
> To: 'WISPA General List'
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh
>
> http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.ht
> m
>
> Daniel White
> 3-dB Networks
> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
> dan...@3-db.net
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
> On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in 
> the
>
> right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the 
> Porsche
>
> is 35x more expensive.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Gino Villarini" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Cc: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
>
>> Tom
>>
>> ROTFL
>>
>> You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e
>>
>> That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche
>>
>> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>>
>>
>> On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, "Tom DeReggi"
>> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is 
>>> here for the long haul.
>>>
>>>> From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto 
>>>> products
>>>>
>>> on their way.
>>>
>>> No problem with the $350 CPE level.
>>>
>>> But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.
>>>
>>> The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is

>>> not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, 
>>> very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher 
>>> capacity.
>>> Its all
>>> opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more 
>>> antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Brad Belton]

I was close to buying a GL550 the other day.  Dave Ramsey drives one, so it
must be fiscally ok, right?  

Brad

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 3:42 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

A Porsche Cayenne could probably handle it, plus do about 140mph.

I almost got a used one last spring, but my wife vetoed it.   Had a lot 
of fun on the take it home overnight test drive though.  :^)

I'm personally going to wait for the BWM X6s to start showing up on the 
used market.   At my current pace, I should be able to get a 2008 X6 in 
about, 2020 or so.

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com


Patrick Leary wrote:
> Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I can
> go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer
> with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche
> or Corvette!  ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old Freewave
> 900 MHz hopper? 
>
>
> Patrick Leary
> Aperto Networks
> 813.426.4230 mobile
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Gino Villarini
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> Funny
>
> But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW
>
> Gino A. Villarini
> g...@aeronetpr.com
> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
> 787.273.4143
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
> To: 'WISPA General List'
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh
>
> http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm
>
> Daniel White
> 3-dB Networks
> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
> dan...@3-db.net
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Hammett
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the
>
> right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the
> Porsche
>
> is 35x more expensive.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Gino Villarini" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Cc: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
>   
>> Tom
>>
>> ROTFL
>>
>> You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e
>>
>> That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche
>>
>> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>>
>>
>> On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, "Tom DeReggi" 
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is 
>>> here for the long haul.
>>>   
>>>> From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto 
>>>> products
>>>> 
>>> on their way.
>>>
>>> No problem with the $350 CPE level.
>>>
>>> But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.
>>>
>>> The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is 
>>> not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, 
>>> very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher 
>>> capacity.
>>> Its all
>>> opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more 
>>> antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today 
>>> than their legacy components were when they were designed).
>>>
>>> I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/
>>>   
>
>   
>>> price concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps 
>>> was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the 
>>> cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the 
>>> new technology.
>>> This is
>>> from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as 
>>> well as technology advancement.
>>>
>>> I'd pose the same arguements
>>>
>>> Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto A

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Jerry Richardson]

Are we still talking about WiMax?

Me thinks this thread hath strayed.

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:47 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Good point Matt, except for dropping the topand 3x the money! But as
a true ragtop lover (I've had 5 over the years), it is hard for me to
not have one. Gotta get my vitamin D somehow.


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:42 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

A Porsche Cayenne could probably handle it, plus do about 140mph.

I almost got a used one last spring, but my wife vetoed it.   Had a lot
of fun on the take it home overnight test drive though.  :^)

I'm personally going to wait for the BWM X6s to start showing up on the
used market.   At my current pace, I should be able to get a 2008 X6 in
about, 2020 or so.

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com


Patrick Leary wrote:
> Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I
> can go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my
> trailer with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a

> Porsche or Corvette!  ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an
> old Freewave 900 MHz hopper?
>
>
> Patrick Leary
> Aperto Networks
> 813.426.4230 mobile
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
> On Behalf Of Gino Villarini
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> Funny
>
> But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW
>
> Gino A. Villarini
> g...@aeronetpr.com
> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
> 787.273.4143
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
> On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
> To: 'WISPA General List'
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh
>
> http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.ht
> m
>
> Daniel White
> 3-dB Networks
> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
> dan...@3-db.net
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
> On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in
> the
>
> right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the
> Porsche
>
> is 35x more expensive.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Gino Villarini" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Cc: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
>
>> Tom
>>
>> ROTFL
>>
>> You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e
>>
>> That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche
>>
>> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>>
>>
>> On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, "Tom DeReggi"
>> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
>>> here for the long haul.
>>>
>>>> From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
>>>> products
>>>>
>>> on their way.
>>>
>>> No problem with the $350 CPE level.
>>>
>>> But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.
>>>
>>> The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is

>>> not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say,
>>> very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher
>>> capacity.
>>> Its all
>>> opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
>>> antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today
>>> than their legacy components were when they were designed).
>>>
>>> I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU
>>> speed/
>>>
>
>
>>> price concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps

>>> was to us 5 years ago. The

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Gino Villarini]

For that i have my Nissan Pathfinder

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 30, 2009, at 5:35 PM, "Patrick Leary"   
wrote:

> Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I  
> can
> go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer
> with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche
> or Corvette!  ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old  
> Freewave
> 900 MHz hopper?
>
>
> Patrick Leary
> Aperto Networks
> 813.426.4230 mobile
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
> On
> Behalf Of Gino Villarini
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> Funny
>
> But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW
>
> Gino A. Villarini
> g...@aeronetpr.com
> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
> 787.273.4143
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
> On
> Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
> To: 'WISPA General List'
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh
>
> http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/ 
> index.htm
>
> Daniel White
> 3-dB Networks
> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
> dan...@3-db.net
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
> On
> Behalf Of Mike Hammett
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in  
> the
>
> right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the
> Porsche
>
> is 35x more expensive.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Gino Villarini" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Cc: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
>> Tom
>>
>> ROTFL
>>
>> You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e
>>
>> That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche
>>
>> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>>
>>
>> On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, "Tom DeReggi"  
>> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
>>> here for the long haul.
>>>> From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
>>>> products
>>> on their way.
>>>
>>> No problem with the $350 CPE level.
>>>
>>> But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.
>>>
>>> The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is
>>> not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say,
>>> very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher
>>> capacity.
>>> Its all
>>> opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
>>> antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today
>>> than their legacy components were when they were designed).
>>>
>>> I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU  
>>> speed/
>
>>> price concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps
>>> was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the
>>> cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the
>>> new technology.
>>> This is
>>> from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as
>>> well as technology advancement.
>>>
>>> I'd pose the same arguements
>>>
>>> Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
>>> tough
>>> call.
>>>
>>> Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP,
> simply
>>> because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create
> noise,
>>> before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from
>>> calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.
>>>
>>> But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage
>>> line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market.
>>>
>>> Tom DeReggi
>>> RapidDSL &

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Patrick Leary]

Good point Matt, except for dropping the topand 3x the money! But as
a true ragtop lover (I've had 5 over the years), it is hard for me to
not have one. Gotta get my vitamin D somehow.


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 1:42 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

A Porsche Cayenne could probably handle it, plus do about 140mph.

I almost got a used one last spring, but my wife vetoed it.   Had a lot 
of fun on the take it home overnight test drive though.  :^)

I'm personally going to wait for the BWM X6s to start showing up on the 
used market.   At my current pace, I should be able to get a 2008 X6 in 
about, 2020 or so.

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com


Patrick Leary wrote:
> Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I 
> can go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my 
> trailer with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a

> Porsche or Corvette!  ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an 
> old Freewave 900 MHz hopper?
>
>
> Patrick Leary
> Aperto Networks
> 813.426.4230 mobile
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] 
> On Behalf Of Gino Villarini
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> Funny
>
> But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW
>
> Gino A. Villarini
> g...@aeronetpr.com
> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
> 787.273.4143
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] 
> On Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
> To: 'WISPA General List'
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh
>
> http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.ht
> m
>
> Daniel White
> 3-dB Networks
> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
> dan...@3-db.net
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] 
> On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in 
> the
>
> right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the 
> Porsche
>
> is 35x more expensive.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Gino Villarini" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Cc: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
>   
>> Tom
>>
>> ROTFL
>>
>> You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e
>>
>> That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche
>>
>> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>>
>>
>> On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, "Tom DeReggi" 
>> 
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is 
>>> here for the long haul.
>>>   
>>>> From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto 
>>>> products
>>>> 
>>> on their way.
>>>
>>> No problem with the $350 CPE level.
>>>
>>> But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.
>>>
>>> The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is

>>> not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, 
>>> very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher 
>>> capacity.
>>> Its all
>>> opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more 
>>> antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today 
>>> than their legacy components were when they were designed).
>>>
>>> I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU 
>>> speed/
>>>   
>
>   
>>> price concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps

>>> was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the 
>>> cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the 
>>> new technology.
>>> This is
>>> from both the perspective of consumer's demand 

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Ryan Spott]

Unimog.

Forget speed, just get there. :)

ryan

On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Matt Larsen - Lists
 wrote:
> A Porsche Cayenne could probably handle it, plus do about 140mph.
>
> I almost got a used one last spring, but my wife vetoed it.   Had a lot
> of fun on the take it home overnight test drive though.  :^)
>
> I'm personally going to wait for the BWM X6s to start showing up on the
> used market.   At my current pace, I should be able to get a 2008 X6 in
> about, 2020 or so.
>
> Matt Larsen
> vistabeam.com
>
>
> Patrick Leary wrote:
>> Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I can
>> go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer
>> with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche
>> or Corvette!  ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old Freewave
>> 900 MHz hopper?
>>
>>
>> Patrick Leary
>> Aperto Networks
>> 813.426.4230 mobile
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of Gino Villarini
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>
>> Funny
>>
>> But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW
>>
>> Gino A. Villarini
>> g...@aeronetpr.com
>> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
>> 787.273.4143
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
>> To: 'WISPA General List'
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>
>> Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh
>>
>> http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm
>>
>> Daniel White
>> 3-dB Networks
>> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
>> dan...@3-db.net
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of Mike Hammett
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>
>> I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the
>>
>> right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the
>> Porsche
>>
>> is 35x more expensive.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Gino Villarini" 
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Cc: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>
>>
>>> Tom
>>>
>>> ROTFL
>>>
>>> You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e
>>>
>>> That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche
>>>
>>> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, "Tom DeReggi" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
>>>> here for the long haul.
>>>>
>>>>> From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
>>>>> products
>>>>>
>>>> on their way.
>>>>
>>>> No problem with the $350 CPE level.
>>>>
>>>> But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.
>>>>
>>>> The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is
>>>> not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say,
>>>> very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher
>>>> capacity.
>>>> Its all
>>>> opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
>>>> antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today
>>>> than their legacy components were when they were designed).
>>>>
>>>> I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/
>>>>
>>
>>
>>>> price concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps
>>>> was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the
>>>> cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the
>>>> new technology.
>>&g

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Matt Larsen - Lists]

A Porsche Cayenne could probably handle it, plus do about 140mph.

I almost got a used one last spring, but my wife vetoed it.   Had a lot 
of fun on the take it home overnight test drive though.  :^)

I'm personally going to wait for the BWM X6s to start showing up on the 
used market.   At my current pace, I should be able to get a 2008 X6 in 
about, 2020 or so.

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com


Patrick Leary wrote:
> Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I can
> go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer
> with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche
> or Corvette!  ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old Freewave
> 900 MHz hopper? 
>
>
> Patrick Leary
> Aperto Networks
> 813.426.4230 mobile
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Gino Villarini
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> Funny
>
> But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW
>
> Gino A. Villarini
> g...@aeronetpr.com
> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
> 787.273.4143
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
> Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
> To: 'WISPA General List'
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh
>
> http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm
>
> Daniel White
> 3-dB Networks
> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
> dan...@3-db.net
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike Hammett
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the
>
> right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the
> Porsche
>
> is 35x more expensive.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Gino Villarini" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Cc: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
>   
>> Tom
>>
>> ROTFL
>>
>> You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e
>>
>> That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche
>>
>> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>>
>>
>> On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, "Tom DeReggi" 
>> wrote:
>>
>> 
>>> I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is 
>>> here for the long haul.
>>>   
>>>> From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto 
>>>> products
>>>> 
>>> on their way.
>>>
>>> No problem with the $350 CPE level.
>>>
>>> But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.
>>>
>>> The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is 
>>> not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, 
>>> very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher 
>>> capacity.
>>> Its all
>>> opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more 
>>> antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today 
>>> than their legacy components were when they were designed).
>>>
>>> I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/
>>>   
>
>   
>>> price concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps 
>>> was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the 
>>> cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the 
>>> new technology.
>>> This is
>>> from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as 
>>> well as technology advancement.
>>>
>>> I'd pose the same arguements
>>>
>>> Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
>>> tough
>>> call.
>>>
>>> Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP,
>>>   
> simply
>   
>>> because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create
>>>   
> noise,
>   
>&

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Patrick Leary]

Personally, I prefer my 4-door Wrangler with my custom roof rack. I can
go anywhere, carry the kids and stuff, drop the top, pull my trailer
with bikes and camping gear AND carry my kayaks. Try that in a Porsche
or Corvette!  ...the wireless equivalent? Idunno...maybe an old Freewave
900 MHz hopper? 


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 7:25 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Funny

But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW

Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
787.273.4143

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh

http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm

Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the

right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the
Porsche

is 35x more expensive.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Gino Villarini" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Cc: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

> Tom
>
> ROTFL
>
> You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e
>
> That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche
>
> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>
>
> On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, "Tom DeReggi" 
> wrote:
>
>> I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is 
>> here for the long haul.
>>> From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto 
>>> products
>> on their way.
>>
>> No problem with the $350 CPE level.
>>
>> But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.
>>
>> The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is 
>> not that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, 
>> very insignificant compared to the market value of the higher 
>> capacity.
>> Its all
>> opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more 
>> antennas, etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today 
>> than their legacy components were when they were designed).
>>
>> I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/

>> price concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps 
>> was to us 5 years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the 
>> cost of 10mbps 5 years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the 
>> new technology.
>> This is
>> from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as 
>> well as technology advancement.
>>
>> I'd pose the same arguements
>>
>> Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
>> tough
>> call.
>>
>> Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP,
simply
>> because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create
noise,
>> before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from 
>> calling themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.
>>
>> But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage 
>> line AP cost in order to make a big splash in the market.
>>
>> Tom DeReggi
>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "3-dB Networks" 
>> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>
>>
>>> Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen 
>>> Moto give pricing way before a product is actually set to release 
>>> and its way off the mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)
>>>
>>> Daniel White
>>> 3-dB Networks
>>> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
>>> dan...@3-db.net
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[3-dB Networks]

Bret,

 

If you follow the thread, the corvette was the $89 Ubiquity AP and the
Porsche is the $3,500 WiMAX AP.  Someone else made the reference, not me.

 

Anyways, the argument is that for $89 your AP is more likely to break so to
speak, spend the extra money you get a higher quality product.  While I love
Corvettes myself, you can't argue that a Porsche is generally better
engineered.

 

Sorry that I wasn't clear

 

Daniel White

3-dB Networks

http://www.3dbnetworks.com

dan...@3-db.net

 

From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Bret Clark
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 8:31 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 

I race Corvettes and would take one any day over a Porsche and while the
Porsche race drivers are pretty cool, I find most Porsche "off track" owners
to be rather snobbish...but I not sure what any of that has to do with
Wimax???

3-dB Networks wrote: 

Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh
 
http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm
 
Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net
 
 
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the 
right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche
 
is 35x more expensive.
 
 
-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
--
From: "Gino Villarini"  <mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
To: "WISPA General List"  <mailto:wireless@wispa.org> 
Cc: "WISPA General List"  <mailto:wireless@wispa.org> 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
  

Tom
 
ROTFL
 
You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e
 
That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche
 
Sent from my Motorola Startac...
 
 
On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, "Tom DeReggi"
<mailto:wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net> 
wrote:
 


I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
here for
the long haul.
  

>From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
products


on their way.
 
No problem with the $350 CPE level.
 
But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.
 
The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is
not
that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very
insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity.
Its all
opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
antennas,
etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their
legacy
components were when they were designed).
 
I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/
price
concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was
to us 5
years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of
10mbps 5
years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology.
This is
from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as
well as
technology advancement.
 
I'd pose the same arguements
 
Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
tough
call.
 
Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply
because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise,
before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from
calling
themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.
 
But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage
line AP
cost in order to make a big splash in the market.
 
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
- Original Message -
From: "3-dB Networks"  <mailto:wi...@3-db.net> 
To: "'WISPA General List'"  <mailto:wireless@wispa.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
 
  

Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen
Moto
give
pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way
off
the
mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)
 
Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net
 
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
Soon as in q1 or q2
 
IIRC
$350~ SM
$3500~ AP
 
Specs are in the website under 320 series
 
Sent from my Motorola Startac...
 
 
On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, "Tom DeReggi"
 <mailto:wirelessn...@rapiddsl.

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Gino Villarini]

Its started comparing Motorola up coming Wimax 802.16e MiMO with
Ubiquity MIMO

 

Gino A. Villarini

g...@aeronetpr.com

Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.

787.273.4143



From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Bret Clark
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:31 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 

I race Corvettes and would take one any day over a Porsche and while the
Porsche race drivers are pretty cool, I find most Porsche "off track"
owners to be rather snobbish...but I not sure what any of that has to do
with Wimax???

3-dB Networks wrote: 

Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh
 
http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm
 
Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net
 
 
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the

right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the
Porsche
 
is 35x more expensive.
 
 
-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
--
From: "Gino Villarini"  <mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
<mailto:wireless@wispa.org> 
Cc: "WISPA General List" 
<mailto:wireless@wispa.org> 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
  

Tom
 
ROTFL
 
You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e
 
That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche
 
Sent from my Motorola Startac...
 
 
On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, "Tom DeReggi"
 <mailto:wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net> 
wrote:
 


I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a
company that is
here for
the long haul.
  

From that perspective, its always excitign to
learn about new Moto
products


on their way.
 
No problem with the $350 CPE level.
 
But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for
802.16e MIMO.
 
The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device
hardware is
not
that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should
say, very
insignificant compared to the market value of the higher
capacity.
Its all
opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor
power, more
antennas,
etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper
today than their
legacy
components were when they were designed).
 
I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to
Computer CPU speed/
price
concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what
10mbps was
to us 5
years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the
cost of
10mbps 5
years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new
technology.
This is
from both the perspective of consumer's demand for
higher speeds, as
well as
technology advancement.
 
I'd pose the same arguements
 
Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for
an AP is a
tough
call.
 
Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher
cost AP, simply
because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to
create noise,
before they are needed, and discourages harry high
school kid from
calling
themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.
 
But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current
Canopy Advantage
line AP
cost in order to make a big splash in the market.
 
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
- Original Message -
From: "3-dB Networks" 
<mailto:wi...@3-db.net> 
To: "'W

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Robert West]

Maybe one can outrun 802.16e?

 

From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Bret Clark
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 10:31 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

 

I race Corvettes and would take one any day over a Porsche and while the
Porsche race drivers are pretty cool, I find most Porsche "off track" owners
to be rather snobbish...but I not sure what any of that has to do with
Wimax???

3-dB Networks wrote: 

Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh
 
http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm
 
Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net
 
 
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the 
right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche
 
is 35x more expensive.
 
 
-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
--
From: "Gino Villarini"  <mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com> 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
To: "WISPA General List"  <mailto:wireless@wispa.org> 
Cc: "WISPA General List"  <mailto:wireless@wispa.org> 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
  

Tom
 
ROTFL
 
You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e
 
That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche
 
Sent from my Motorola Startac...
 
 
On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, "Tom DeReggi"
<mailto:wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net> 
wrote:
 


I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
here for
the long haul.
  

>From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
products


on their way.
 
No problem with the $350 CPE level.
 
But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.
 
The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is
not
that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very
insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity.
Its all
opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
antennas,
etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their
legacy
components were when they were designed).
 
I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/
price
concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was
to us 5
years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of
10mbps 5
years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology.
This is
from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as
well as
technology advancement.
 
I'd pose the same arguements
 
Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
tough
call.
 
Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply
because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise,
before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from
calling
themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.
 
But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage
line AP
cost in order to make a big splash in the market.
 
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
- Original Message -
From: "3-dB Networks"  <mailto:wi...@3-db.net> 
To: "'WISPA General List'"  <mailto:wireless@wispa.org> 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
 
  

Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen
Moto
give
pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way
off
the
mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)
 
Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net
 
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
 
Soon as in q1 or q2
 
IIRC
$350~ SM
$3500~ AP
 
Specs are in the website under 320 series
 
Sent from my Motorola Startac...
 
 
On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, "Tom DeReggi"
 <mailto:wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net> 
wrote:
 


moto


Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean
they are
talking about comming out with?
 
In WISP time, there is a big difference.
 
Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at
current
Canopy level price points.
But that is an if.
 
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
- Original Message -
From: "Gino Villarini"

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Bret Clark]

I race Corvettes and would take one any day over a Porsche and while
the Porsche race drivers are pretty cool, I find most Porsche "off
track" owners to be rather snobbish...but I not sure what any of that
has to do with Wimax???

3-dB Networks wrote:

  Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh

http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm

Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the 
right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche

is 35x more expensive.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Gino Villarini" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Cc: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

  
  
Tom

ROTFL

You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e

That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, "Tom DeReggi" 
wrote:



  I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
here for
the long haul.
  
  
From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
products

  
  on their way.

No problem with the $350 CPE level.

But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.

The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is
not
that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very
insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity.
Its all
opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
antennas,
etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their
legacy
components were when they were designed).

I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/
price
concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was
to us 5
years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of
10mbps 5
years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology.
This is
from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as
well as
technology advancement.

I'd pose the same arguements

Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
tough
call.

Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply
because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise,
before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from
calling
themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.

But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage
line AP
cost in order to make a big splash in the market.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: "3-dB Networks" 
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


  
  
Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen
Moto
give
pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way
off
the
mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)

Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Soon as in q1 or q2

IIRC
$350~ SM
$3500~ AP

Specs are in the website under 320 series

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, "Tom DeReggi"

wrote:



  
moto

  
  Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean
they are
talking about comming out with?

In WISP time, there is a big difference.

Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at
current
Canopy level price points.
But that is an if.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


----- Original Message -
From: "Gino Villarini" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Cc: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


  
  
Less?

Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using
mimo

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, "Patrick Leary" 
wrote:



  Why is your basic criteria .16e with 

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Gino Villarini]

Funny

But I would say Im very satisfied with my current BMW

Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
787.273.4143

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of 3-dB Networks
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2009 11:04 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh

http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm

Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the

right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the
Porsche

is 35x more expensive.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Gino Villarini" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Cc: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

> Tom
>
> ROTFL
>
> You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e
>
> That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche
>
> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>
>
> On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, "Tom DeReggi" 
> wrote:
>
>> I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
>> here for
>> the long haul.
>>> From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
>>> products
>> on their way.
>>
>> No problem with the $350 CPE level.
>>
>> But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.
>>
>> The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is
>> not
>> that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very
>> insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity.
>> Its all
>> opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
>> antennas,
>> etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their
>> legacy
>> components were when they were designed).
>>
>> I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/
>> price
>> concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was
>> to us 5
>> years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of
>> 10mbps 5
>> years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology.
>> This is
>> from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as
>> well as
>> technology advancement.
>>
>> I'd pose the same arguements
>>
>> Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
>> tough
>> call.
>>
>> Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP,
simply
>> because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create
noise,
>> before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from
>> calling
>> themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.
>>
>> But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage
>> line AP
>> cost in order to make a big splash in the market.
>>
>> Tom DeReggi
>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "3-dB Networks" 
>> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>
>>
>>> Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen
>>> Moto
>>> give
>>> pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way
>>> off
>>> the
>>> mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)
>>>
>>> Daniel White
>>> 3-dB Networks
>>> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
>>> dan...@3-db.net
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
>>> boun...@wispa.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Gino Villarini
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>>
>>> Soon as in q1 or q2
>>>
>>> IIRC
>>> $350~ SM
>>> $3500~ AP
>>>
>>> Specs are in the website under 320 series
>>>
>>> Sent from

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[3-dB Networks]

Sorry I saw this on CNN and it made me laugh

http://money.cnn.com/2009/12/30/autos/GM_Corvette_recall.cnnw/index.htm

Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:33 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the 
right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche

is 35x more expensive.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Gino Villarini" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Cc: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

> Tom
>
> ROTFL
>
> You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e
>
> That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche
>
> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>
>
> On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, "Tom DeReggi" 
> wrote:
>
>> I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
>> here for
>> the long haul.
>>> From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
>>> products
>> on their way.
>>
>> No problem with the $350 CPE level.
>>
>> But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.
>>
>> The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is
>> not
>> that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very
>> insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity.
>> Its all
>> opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
>> antennas,
>> etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their
>> legacy
>> components were when they were designed).
>>
>> I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/
>> price
>> concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was
>> to us 5
>> years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of
>> 10mbps 5
>> years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology.
>> This is
>> from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as
>> well as
>> technology advancement.
>>
>> I'd pose the same arguements
>>
>> Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
>> tough
>> call.
>>
>> Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply
>> because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise,
>> before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from
>> calling
>> themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.
>>
>> But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage
>> line AP
>> cost in order to make a big splash in the market.
>>
>> Tom DeReggi
>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "3-dB Networks" 
>> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>
>>
>>> Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen
>>> Moto
>>> give
>>> pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way
>>> off
>>> the
>>> mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)
>>>
>>> Daniel White
>>> 3-dB Networks
>>> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
>>> dan...@3-db.net
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
>>> boun...@wispa.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Gino Villarini
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>>
>>> Soon as in q1 or q2
>>>
>>> IIRC
>>> $350~ SM
>>> $3500~ AP
>>>
>>> Specs are in the website under 320 series
>>>
>>> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, "Tom DeReggi"
>>> 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> moto
>>>>
>>>> Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean
>>>> they are
>>>> talking about comming out with?
>>>&g

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[3-dB Networks]

Depends... are you deploying WiMAX for fixed operation or for mobile
operation with self install kits, etc.

If Fixed... then yes I think it has a future.  Professional installs, and
better QoS in typically virgin spectrum ='s opportunity.

If not... then I don't think a WISP (as we probably define it) is ever
really going to be profitable with it. Self-installs on wireless gear have
problems in their own right (look at all of the Clearwire horror stories,
and they get to use the EBS spectrum) and mobility is doomed because they
will probably only be mobile within your footprint, which for most WISP's
isn't that big (why pay xxx amount to only be able to roam in city x when I
could pay xxx for LTE/3G and roam across the country).

802.16e in its pure form IMHO is only going to work for carriers like Open
Range and Clearwire utilizing 2.5GHz licensed spectrum.  

But what about Motorola's new product?  Remember it's a "fixed" 802.16e, so
you don't get the benefits of mobility, no indoor CPE's are planned as far
as I know, but it is supposed to pay off in NLOS situations (which is
anecdotal until we can get gear on a tower and test).

Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:56 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

> I'd say the question boils down to who's going to foot the bill for the
deployment -- you or the government =)


With or without government stimulus I'm curious of the lists' general
consensus on whether or not WiMAX is worthwhile investment in this 'war' of
LTE vs WiMAX. Having Uncle Sam foot the bill on a deployment definitely
lowers / removes the financial barrier, but doesn't really matter if
deploying WiMAX is a foolish endeavor from the get-go due to lack of
customer demand or vendors ceasing development.

I believe WiMAX has an opportunity to be commercially viable at least for a
couple of years, and I don't see any reason to not take advantage of that
fact. But, what do I know.

Consider this a question solely for the sake of debate.

--
Blake Covarrubias




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Stuart Pierce]

Sounds like you gave a choice for the answer, if the government does, then you 
have, twice. WIMAX equipment cost is the entry block. As broadband needs "keep" 
growing, you'll see an increased number of smaller "wisp" cells using equipment 
such as UBNT. That is until the government uses your money to give to the big 
three under the guise that America needs it to solve the health care, 
unemployment, terrorist problems.

-- Original Message --
From: Charles Wu 
Reply-To: WISPA General List 
Date:  Wed, 30 Dec 2009 00:18:48 -0600

>>>  LTE has already won and .16e will find only small, limited life and even 
>>> less
>>> mass development.
>
>>Do you see any point in small BRS/EBS (MMDS/ITFS) license holders deploying 
>>802.16e in these frequency bands?
>
>Hi Blake,
>
>I'd say the question boils down to who's going to foot the bill for the 
>deployment -- you or the government =)
>
>-Charles
>
>
>
>
>
>
>WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
>Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
>Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
 





Sent via the WebMail system at avolve.net


 
   



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Gino Villarini]

I don't see LTE being developed for other markets than cellcos


Don't expect a LTE system for EBS spectrum

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 30, 2009, at 3:00 AM, "Blake Covarrubias"   
wrote:

>> I'd say the question boils down to who's going to foot the bill for  
>> the deployment -- you or the government =)
>
>
> With or without government stimulus I'm curious of the lists'  
> general consensus on whether or not WiMAX is worthwhile investment  
> in this 'war' of LTE vs WiMAX. Having Uncle Sam foot the bill on a  
> deployment definitely lowers / removes the financial barrier, but  
> doesn't really matter if deploying WiMAX is a foolish endeavor from  
> the get-go due to lack of customer demand or vendors ceasing  
> development.
>
> I believe WiMAX has an opportunity to be commercially viable at  
> least for a couple of years, and I don't see any reason to not take  
> advantage of that fact. But, what do I know.
>
> Consider this a question solely for the sake of debate.
>
> --
> Blake Covarrubias
>
>
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Blake Covarrubias]

> I'd say the question boils down to who's going to foot the bill for the 
> deployment -- you or the government =)


With or without government stimulus I'm curious of the lists' general consensus 
on whether or not WiMAX is worthwhile investment in this 'war' of LTE vs WiMAX. 
Having Uncle Sam foot the bill on a deployment definitely lowers / removes the 
financial barrier, but doesn't really matter if deploying WiMAX is a foolish 
endeavor from the get-go due to lack of customer demand or vendors ceasing 
development.

I believe WiMAX has an opportunity to be commercially viable at least for a 
couple of years, and I don't see any reason to not take advantage of that fact. 
But, what do I know.

Consider this a question solely for the sake of debate.

--
Blake Covarrubias



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Charles Wu]

>>  LTE has already won and .16e will find only small, limited life and even 
>> less
>> mass development.

>Do you see any point in small BRS/EBS (MMDS/ITFS) license holders deploying 
>802.16e in these frequency bands?

Hi Blake,

I'd say the question boils down to who's going to foot the bill for the 
deployment -- you or the government =)

-Charles






WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Gino Villarini]

I have owned both. Porsche is a true piece of german engineering

Corvette was GM crap


Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 29, 2009, at 10:40 PM, "Mike Hammett"  wrote:

> I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in  
> the
> right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the  
> Porsche
> is 35x more expensive.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Gino Villarini" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Cc: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
>> Tom
>>
>> ROTFL
>>
>> You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e
>>
>> That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche
>>
>> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>>
>>
>> On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, "Tom DeReggi"  
>> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
>>> here for
>>> the long haul.
>>>> From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
>>>> products
>>> on their way.
>>>
>>> No problem with the $350 CPE level.
>>>
>>> But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.
>>>
>>> The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is
>>> not
>>> that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very
>>> insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity.
>>> Its all
>>> opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
>>> antennas,
>>> etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their
>>> legacy
>>> components were when they were designed).
>>>
>>> I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU  
>>> speed/
>>> price
>>> concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was
>>> to us 5
>>> years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of
>>> 10mbps 5
>>> years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology.
>>> This is
>>> from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as
>>> well as
>>> technology advancement.
>>>
>>> I'd pose the same arguements
>>>
>>> Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
>>> tough
>>> call.
>>>
>>> Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP,  
>>> simply
>>> because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create  
>>> noise,
>>> before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from
>>> calling
>>> themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.
>>>
>>> But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage
>>> line AP
>>> cost in order to make a big splash in the market.
>>>
>>> Tom DeReggi
>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "3-dB Networks" 
>>> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>>
>>>
>>>> Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen
>>>> Moto
>>>> give
>>>> pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way
>>>> off
>>>> the
>>>> mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)
>>>>
>>>> Daniel White
>>>> 3-dB Networks
>>>> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
>>>> dan...@3-db.net
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
>>>> boun...@wispa.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of Gino Villarini
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>>>
>>>> Soon as in q1 or q2
>>>>
>>>> IIRC
>>>> $350~ SM
>>>> $3500~ AP
>>>>
>>>> Specs are in the website under 320 series
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my Motorola Starta

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Rubens Kuhl]

On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 10:00 PM, Tom DeReggi  wrote:
> I hate to sabatage this 3650 thread, but I cant help myself, when 802.16e is
> mentioned for PtMP
>
> 1) Ubiquiti Mimo AP - $89,  capacity up to 150 mb, (or maybe 50mbps might be
> more fair, for avg 20 Mhz channel 2x pole).

Not available yet for 3.65 MHz, and will be limited to 5 MHz channel
instead of 7 MHz channel.
I don't know US regulations for 5.4-5.7 GHz, but even with limited
power there are lots of spectrum in many markets that will probably do
as fine as 3.65 MHz in this band, opposed to 5.7-5.8 GHz which is
crowded in any part of the world.





Rubens



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Mike Hammett]

I'd say it'd be more like comparing a Corvette with a Porsche...  in the 
right hands in many cases, a Corvette will beat the Porsche, but the Porsche 
is 35x more expensive.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Gino Villarini" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 8:01 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Cc: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

> Tom
>
> ROTFL
>
> You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e
>
> That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche
>
> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>
>
> On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, "Tom DeReggi" 
> wrote:
>
>> I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is
>> here for
>> the long haul.
>>> From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto
>>> products
>> on their way.
>>
>> No problem with the $350 CPE level.
>>
>> But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.
>>
>> The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is
>> not
>> that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very
>> insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity.
>> Its all
>> opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more
>> antennas,
>> etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their
>> legacy
>> components were when they were designed).
>>
>> I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/
>> price
>> concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was
>> to us 5
>> years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of
>> 10mbps 5
>> years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology.
>> This is
>> from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as
>> well as
>> technology advancement.
>>
>> I'd pose the same arguements
>>
>> Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a
>> tough
>> call.
>>
>> Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply
>> because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise,
>> before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from
>> calling
>> themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.
>>
>> But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage
>> line AP
>> cost in order to make a big splash in the market.
>>
>> Tom DeReggi
>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "3-dB Networks" 
>> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>
>>
>>> Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen
>>> Moto
>>> give
>>> pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way
>>> off
>>> the
>>> mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)
>>>
>>> Daniel White
>>> 3-dB Networks
>>> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
>>> dan...@3-db.net
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
>>> boun...@wispa.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Gino Villarini
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>>
>>> Soon as in q1 or q2
>>>
>>> IIRC
>>> $350~ SM
>>> $3500~ AP
>>>
>>> Specs are in the website under 320 series
>>>
>>> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, "Tom DeReggi"
>>> 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> moto
>>>>
>>>> Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean
>>>> they are
>>>> talking about comming out with?
>>>>
>>>> In WISP time, there is a big difference.
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at
>>>> current
>>>> Canopy level price points.
>>>> But that is an if.
>>>>
>>>> Tom DeReggi
>>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
&g

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Gino Villarini]

Tom

Do you have any Ubiquity AirMac in production?

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 29, 2009, at 8:15 PM, "Patrick Leary"   
wrote:

> In our case, the numbers are about $20k for three sectors yielding an
> aggregate of about 60 mbps net for that cell. With WiMAX scheduling  
> and
> our QoS, you could realistically connect well over 600 CPE in that  
> cell.
> The sweet spot remains commercial, especially when implementing a  
> double
> play of voice and data, so you can generate high ARPU.
>
>
> Patrick Leary
> Aperto Networks
> 813.426.4230 mobile
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
> On
> Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:00 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> I hate to sabatage this 3650 thread, but I cant help myself, when
> 802.16e is mentioned for PtMP
>
> 1) Ubiquiti Mimo AP - $89,  capacity up to 150 mb, (or maybe 50mbps
> might be more fair, for avg 20 Mhz channel 2x pole).
>
> 2) Mikroik AP MIMO- $400, capacity: same as Ubiquiti, but with  
> Spectrum
> Analysis, and a bit of hassle added.
>
> 3) Wimax 802.16e AP (1 antenna) - $9000, capacity: more efficient  
> use of
> 25 mbps.
>
> 4) Wimax 802.16d AP - ?? $2000 - $7000 ??, capacity: same as Legacy  
> TDD
> OFDM, or CDMA OFDM if small channel in 3.65G.
>
> 5) Legacy TDD OFDM- $1800, up to 25 mbps. Better management than wifi
>
> 6) Legacy CDMA OFDM AP- $300, capacity like 14 mbps.
>
> 7) Legacy DSSS TDD -  $1300, 10mbps
>
>
> In the transition from Legacy to next adjacent generation, the
> decissions might have been tough. I get it, when some justified WiMax.
>
> But as we jump to the current day, represented at the top of the chart
> with items #1 and #2, it is almost silly to even see 802.16e in the
> line-up.
>
> Ubiquiti offers 1/100th the price, at 2x to 6x higher capacity than
> Wimax, dependant on how you look at it.
>
> Lets get real, will a WISP still consider Wimax-e, just to get a few
> feature enhancements, that is if they were to use their OWN money?
> Sure, we might choose WiMax for a grant, when WiMax will help prove
> "Never able to reach profitabilty, without aid". But thats a different
> game.
>
> Now, we also have to consider, just about all carriers other than
> Sprint, has preferred and will choose LTE.  Its inevidable that LTE  
> will
> extinguish the 802.16e carrier market, so we cant even argue 802.16e
> will help our exit strategy, anymore.
>
> Dont misunderstand me, I dont doubt WiMax's technology. Its good  
> stuff.
>
> So my question is, when will 802.16e manufacturers admit their  
> original
> target market, game plan, and price list is ancient history?
>
> Will recent industry developments force WiMax 802.16e carriers to  
> lower
> their price points down to the levels that are in line with the WISP
> market's expectations?
> Surely, its technically possible to reach those price points, Ubiquiti
> proved that, even if with Wifi chipsets.  Arguably, Intel could reach
> the same scale with 802.16e instantly, if manufacturers lowered the AP
> cost to sub $2000.
>
> Will the BTOP/BIP program prevent price drops? Why lower price, when
> Grant programs could keep the price high for atleast 3 more years,
> beyond what the private funded operators would normally allow?
>
> Ubiquiti has set the bar high for our industry, and has got to be the
> largest disruptive force to the ISP industry since Cogent drove  
> transit
> low cost.
>
> Wimax has a challenge in front of them. They lost the carrier market,
> and if you ask me, they'll lose the WISP market to, if they dont lower
> their price and up their game.
>
> I agree, WISPs would rather a full featured WiMax product, but when  
> its
> being compared against a $90 product that is like Wifi on steroids,  
> its
> a new game.
> I predict there will be numerous manufacturers this year filling the
> market that Mikrotik is currently leading the effort to tackle.
>
> Its the markets where its realized that a $99 AP is not necessary, and
> compromises like giving up spectrum analysis cant be accepted, but  
> where
> manufacturers will challenge themselve to see how close to the price
> point they can get, without compromising advanced features.
>
> History showed us that Consumers will choose Linksys over Cisco.
> Eventually Cisco realized they had to become Linksys, in some  
> capacity.
>
>
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
>
>

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Gino Villarini]

430 cpe is the same as current Canopy SM's

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, "Tom DeReggi"   
wrote:

> I read the Moto 802.16e MIMO spec.  I found it interesting that  
> receive
> sensitivy for QAM64 was -89.  That is awesome, compared to wifi OFDM  
> of
> about -68.
> Doesn't help with the noise floor SNR requirements though. I also  
> found it
> insightful that the 802.16e model AUTO shifted from MIMO A to B.   
> Its uses
> Dual Pol methodology.
> (A = same data send on each pol for higher receive  signal and NLOS
> penetration, B = different data sent on each pol for double  
> throughput, but
> no link budget improvement)
>
> On the 430 5.8Ghz OFDM line, I had heard that it was going to be  
> limited to
> integrated antenna CPE and Verticle Pol only. Is that true? Or will  
> it have
> an external antenna CPE option?
> I know a Beehive can be put on the 10dbi ant to make it higher, but  
> it would
> still be discouraging if product prevented from using high end  
> parabolic
> dishes.
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "3-dB Networks" 
> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
>
>> Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen  
>> Moto
>> give
>> pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way  
>> off
>> the
>> mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)
>>
>> Daniel White
>> 3-dB Networks
>> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
>> dan...@3-db.net
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
>> boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of Gino Villarini
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>
>> Soon as in q1 or q2
>>
>> IIRC
>> $350~ SM
>> $3500~ AP
>>
>> Specs are in the website under 320 series
>>
>> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>>
>>
>> On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, "Tom DeReggi"  
>> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> moto
>>>
>>> Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean
>>> they are
>>> talking about comming out with?
>>>
>>> In WISP time, there is a big difference.
>>>
>>> Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at
>>> current
>>> Canopy level price points.
>>> But that is an if.
>>>
>>> Tom DeReggi
>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Gino Villarini" 
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Cc: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>>
>>>
>>>> Less?
>>>>
>>>> Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using  
>>>> mimo
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, "Patrick Leary" 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?
>>>>>
>>>>> All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency,  
>>>>> less
>>>>> throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't  
>>>>> get
>>>>> any
>>>>> hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards,
>>>>> since
>>>>> those are only applicable to licensed bands.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Patrick Leary
>>>>> Aperto Networks
>>>>> 813.426.4230 mobile
>>>>>
>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
>>>>> boun...@wispa.org]
>>>>> On
>>>>> Behalf Of Michael Baird
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
>>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>>> Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>>>>
>>>>> We are looking for 

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Gino Villarini]

Tom

ROTFL

You can't compare a ubiquiti to a motorola 16e

That's like comparing a Yugo  with a Porsche

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 29, 2009, at 9:00 PM, "Tom DeReggi"   
wrote:

> I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is  
> here for
> the long haul.
>> From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto  
>> products
> on their way.
>
> No problem with the $350 CPE level.
>
> But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.
>
> The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is  
> not
> that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very
> insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity.   
> Its all
> opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more  
> antennas,
> etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their  
> legacy
> components were when they were designed).
>
> I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/ 
> price
> concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was  
> to us 5
> years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of  
> 10mbps 5
> years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology.   
> This is
> from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as  
> well as
> technology advancement.
>
> I'd pose the same arguements
>
> Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a  
> tough
> call.
>
> Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply
> because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise,
> before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from  
> calling
> themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.
>
> But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage  
> line AP
> cost in order to make a big splash in the market.
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "3-dB Networks" 
> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
>
>> Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen  
>> Moto
>> give
>> pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way  
>> off
>> the
>> mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)
>>
>> Daniel White
>> 3-dB Networks
>> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
>> dan...@3-db.net
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
>> boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of Gino Villarini
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>
>> Soon as in q1 or q2
>>
>> IIRC
>> $350~ SM
>> $3500~ AP
>>
>> Specs are in the website under 320 series
>>
>> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>>
>>
>> On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, "Tom DeReggi"  
>> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> moto
>>>
>>> Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean
>>> they are
>>> talking about comming out with?
>>>
>>> In WISP time, there is a big difference.
>>>
>>> Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at
>>> current
>>> Canopy level price points.
>>> But that is an if.
>>>
>>> Tom DeReggi
>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>>
>>>
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: "Gino Villarini" 
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Cc: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>>
>>>
>>>> Less?
>>>>
>>>> Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using  
>>>> mimo
>>>>
>>>> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, "Patrick Leary" 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?
>>>>>
>>>>> All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency,  
>>>>> less
>>>>> throughput per MHz, higher overhead and mor

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Tom DeReggi]

Patrick,

Just for the record, let me say I realize there are many little details 
between WiMax and Wifi that can translate to real big differences in value 
proposition gain for Wimax, after all said and done.  There is no doubt in 
my mind that Wimax-D price tags for top quality gear can results in a 
reasonable ROI for those targeting commercial markets. More so when a 
company graduates from mom&pop size operation to a company that has to be 
able to scale easilly.

But it has never really mattered what the profit or revenue potential was 
for using a product. At the end of the day operators dont pay more than they 
have to pay for anything. No business does. As an example, its ludacris that 
I pay more for one of my core roof rights sites than I do for the transit 
fiber that serves my entire foot print of customers made possible by 24 cell 
sites. But I pay less for transit, because there is competition between 
vendors, and I can. Its irrelevent that the transit should be worth a higher 
percentage of my revenue.  As well, I pay more than I should for that one 
high priced roof, because there was competition amongst buyers, and I 
legitimately needed that space.

Clearly in 3.65ghz,  there is an immediate opportunity for manufacturers to 
hold on to high margins for longer, and justify them. But...

I still stand behind my core point.  "The dynamics are changing." Prices are 
falling, and low price gear is starting to become more feature rich, closer 
to a WiMax product, tolerable to scale an operation.  The gap between Wifi 
and Wimax is shrinking.

It will be an interesting year in wireless technology again this year.

My 2010 New Years Wish is that maybe in 2010, 80Ghz manufacturers will step 
up to make progress equivellent or in line with  Licensed 6-23G PTP and 
3.5-5.8G  PtMP manufacturers that made major advancements in 2009.

The technology is there, I just hope our industry accomplishes the price 
point needed for mass scale in time, before companies like ATT get fiber to 
every home by 2015 :-)

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Patrick Leary" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


> In our case, the numbers are about $20k for three sectors yielding an
> aggregate of about 60 mbps net for that cell. With WiMAX scheduling and
> our QoS, you could realistically connect well over 600 CPE in that cell.
> The sweet spot remains commercial, especially when implementing a double
> play of voice and data, so you can generate high ARPU.
>
>
> Patrick Leary
> Aperto Networks
> 813.426.4230 mobile
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:00 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> I hate to sabatage this 3650 thread, but I cant help myself, when
> 802.16e is mentioned for PtMP
>
> 1) Ubiquiti Mimo AP - $89,  capacity up to 150 mb, (or maybe 50mbps
> might be more fair, for avg 20 Mhz channel 2x pole).
>
> 2) Mikroik AP MIMO- $400, capacity: same as Ubiquiti, but with Spectrum
> Analysis, and a bit of hassle added.
>
> 3) Wimax 802.16e AP (1 antenna) - $9000, capacity: more efficient use of
> 25 mbps.
>
> 4) Wimax 802.16d AP - ?? $2000 - $7000 ??, capacity: same as Legacy TDD
> OFDM, or CDMA OFDM if small channel in 3.65G.
>
> 5) Legacy TDD OFDM- $1800, up to 25 mbps. Better management than wifi
>
> 6) Legacy CDMA OFDM AP- $300, capacity like 14 mbps.
>
> 7) Legacy DSSS TDD -  $1300, 10mbps
>
>
> In the transition from Legacy to next adjacent generation, the
> decissions might have been tough. I get it, when some justified WiMax.
>
> But as we jump to the current day, represented at the top of the chart
> with items #1 and #2, it is almost silly to even see 802.16e in the
> line-up.
>
> Ubiquiti offers 1/100th the price, at 2x to 6x higher capacity than
> Wimax, dependant on how you look at it.
>
> Lets get real, will a WISP still consider Wimax-e, just to get a few
> feature enhancements, that is if they were to use their OWN money?
> Sure, we might choose WiMax for a grant, when WiMax will help prove
> "Never able to reach profitabilty, without aid". But thats a different
> game.
>
> Now, we also have to consider, just about all carriers other than
> Sprint, has preferred and will choose LTE.  Its inevidable that LTE will
> extinguish the 802.16e carrier market, so we cant even argue 802.16e
> will help our exit strategy, anymore.
>
> Dont misunderstand me, I dont doubt WiMax's technology. Its good stuff.
>
> So my question is, when will 802.16e manufactur

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Tom DeReggi]

I will admit, Moto has made a name for itself as a company that is here for 
the long haul.
>From that perspective, its always excitign to learn about new Moto products 
on their way.

No problem with the $350 CPE level.

But, I'd argue $3500 AP is still way to high, even for 802.16e MIMO.

The truth is, we all know the cost to make a MIMO device hardware is not 
that much more than to make legacy non-MIMO, or I should say, very 
insignificant compared to the market value of the higher capacity.  Its all 
opportunity mark up. (Sure MIMO takes more processor power, more antennas, 
etc, but those things are likely obtainable cheaper today than their legacy 
components were when they were designed).

I'd also argue that RF speed/price  is similar to Computer CPU speed/price 
concepts.  50 mbps today is equivelent in value to what 10mbps was to us 5 
years ago. Therefore price points should not exceed the cost of 10mbps 5 
years ago, for the WISP to get a break even on the new technology.  This is 
from both the perspective of consumer's demand for higher speeds, as well as 
technology advancement.

I'd pose the same arguements

Ubiquiti AP $99. vs Moto AP $3500.   Paying 35x more for an AP is a tough 
call.

Dont get me wrong, I've always been in favor of higher cost AP, simply 
because it discourages putting them up unnecessarilly to create noise, 
before they are needed, and discourages harry high school kid from calling 
themselves a WISP with one paycheck from McDs.

But I'd argued Moto would need to beat the current Canopy Advantage line AP 
cost in order to make a big splash in the market.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "3-dB Networks" 
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


> Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto 
> give
> pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way off 
> the
> mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)
>
> Daniel White
> 3-dB Networks
> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
> dan...@3-db.net
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Gino Villarini
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> Soon as in q1 or q2
>
> IIRC
> $350~ SM
> $3500~ AP
>
> Specs are in the website under 320 series
>
> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>
>
> On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, "Tom DeReggi" 
> wrote:
>
>>> moto
>>
>> Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean
>> they are
>> talking about comming out with?
>>
>> In WISP time, there is a big difference.
>>
>> Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at
>> current
>> Canopy level price points.
>> But that is an if.
>>
>> Tom DeReggi
>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Gino Villarini" 
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Cc: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>
>>
>>> Less?
>>>
>>> Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo
>>>
>>> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, "Patrick Leary" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?
>>>>
>>>> All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less
>>>> throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get
>>>> any
>>>> hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards,
>>>> since
>>>> those are only applicable to licensed bands.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Patrick Leary
>>>> Aperto Networks
>>>> 813.426.4230 mobile
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Michael Baird
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>> Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>>>
>>>> We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band,
>>>> our
>>>> basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've te

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Tom DeReggi]

I read the Moto 802.16e MIMO spec.  I found it interesting that receive 
sensitivy for QAM64 was -89.  That is awesome, compared to wifi OFDM of 
about -68.
Doesn't help with the noise floor SNR requirements though. I also found it 
insightful that the 802.16e model AUTO shifted from MIMO A to B.  Its uses 
Dual Pol methodology.
(A = same data send on each pol for higher receive  signal and NLOS 
penetration, B = different data sent on each pol for double throughput, but 
no link budget improvement)

On the 430 5.8Ghz OFDM line, I had heard that it was going to be limited to 
integrated antenna CPE and Verticle Pol only. Is that true? Or will it have 
an external antenna CPE option?
I know a Beehive can be put on the 10dbi ant to make it higher, but it would 
still be discouraging if product prevented from using high end parabolic 
dishes.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "3-dB Networks" 
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 6:39 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


> Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto 
> give
> pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way off 
> the
> mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)
>
> Daniel White
> 3-dB Networks
> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
> dan...@3-db.net
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Gino Villarini
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> Soon as in q1 or q2
>
> IIRC
> $350~ SM
> $3500~ AP
>
> Specs are in the website under 320 series
>
> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>
>
> On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, "Tom DeReggi" 
> wrote:
>
>>> moto
>>
>> Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean
>> they are
>> talking about comming out with?
>>
>> In WISP time, there is a big difference.
>>
>> Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at
>> current
>> Canopy level price points.
>> But that is an if.
>>
>> Tom DeReggi
>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Gino Villarini" 
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Cc: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>
>>
>>> Less?
>>>
>>> Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo
>>>
>>> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, "Patrick Leary" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?
>>>>
>>>> All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less
>>>> throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get
>>>> any
>>>> hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards,
>>>> since
>>>> those are only applicable to licensed bands.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Patrick Leary
>>>> Aperto Networks
>>>> 813.426.4230 mobile
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Michael Baird
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>> Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>>>
>>>> We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band,
>>>> our
>>>> basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
>>>> already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
>>>> environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if
>>>> possible
>>>> with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
>>>> device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me
>>>> off
>>>> list I would appreciate it.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Michael Baird
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> --- 
>>>> --
>>>> 
>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
&g

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Patrick Leary]

In our case, the numbers are about $20k for three sectors yielding an
aggregate of about 60 mbps net for that cell. With WiMAX scheduling and
our QoS, you could realistically connect well over 600 CPE in that cell.
The sweet spot remains commercial, especially when implementing a double
play of voice and data, so you can generate high ARPU.


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:00 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

I hate to sabatage this 3650 thread, but I cant help myself, when
802.16e is mentioned for PtMP

1) Ubiquiti Mimo AP - $89,  capacity up to 150 mb, (or maybe 50mbps
might be more fair, for avg 20 Mhz channel 2x pole).

2) Mikroik AP MIMO- $400, capacity: same as Ubiquiti, but with Spectrum
Analysis, and a bit of hassle added.

3) Wimax 802.16e AP (1 antenna) - $9000, capacity: more efficient use of
25 mbps.

4) Wimax 802.16d AP - ?? $2000 - $7000 ??, capacity: same as Legacy TDD
OFDM, or CDMA OFDM if small channel in 3.65G.

5) Legacy TDD OFDM- $1800, up to 25 mbps. Better management than wifi

6) Legacy CDMA OFDM AP- $300, capacity like 14 mbps.

7) Legacy DSSS TDD -  $1300, 10mbps


In the transition from Legacy to next adjacent generation, the
decissions might have been tough. I get it, when some justified WiMax.

But as we jump to the current day, represented at the top of the chart
with items #1 and #2, it is almost silly to even see 802.16e in the
line-up.

Ubiquiti offers 1/100th the price, at 2x to 6x higher capacity than
Wimax, dependant on how you look at it.

Lets get real, will a WISP still consider Wimax-e, just to get a few
feature enhancements, that is if they were to use their OWN money?
Sure, we might choose WiMax for a grant, when WiMax will help prove
"Never able to reach profitabilty, without aid". But thats a different
game.

Now, we also have to consider, just about all carriers other than
Sprint, has preferred and will choose LTE.  Its inevidable that LTE will
extinguish the 802.16e carrier market, so we cant even argue 802.16e
will help our exit strategy, anymore.

Dont misunderstand me, I dont doubt WiMax's technology. Its good stuff.

So my question is, when will 802.16e manufacturers admit their original
target market, game plan, and price list is ancient history?

Will recent industry developments force WiMax 802.16e carriers to lower
their price points down to the levels that are in line with the WISP
market's expectations?
Surely, its technically possible to reach those price points, Ubiquiti
proved that, even if with Wifi chipsets.  Arguably, Intel could reach
the same scale with 802.16e instantly, if manufacturers lowered the AP
cost to sub $2000.

Will the BTOP/BIP program prevent price drops? Why lower price, when
Grant programs could keep the price high for atleast 3 more years,
beyond what the private funded operators would normally allow?

Ubiquiti has set the bar high for our industry, and has got to be the
largest disruptive force to the ISP industry since Cogent drove transit
low cost.

Wimax has a challenge in front of them. They lost the carrier market,
and if you ask me, they'll lose the WISP market to, if they dont lower
their price and up their game.

I agree, WISPs would rather a full featured WiMax product, but when its
being compared against a $90 product that is like Wifi on steroids, its
a new game.
I predict there will be numerous manufacturers this year filling the
market that Mikrotik is currently leading the effort to tackle.

Its the markets where its realized that a $99 AP is not necessary, and
compromises like giving up spectrum analysis cant be accepted, but where
manufacturers will challenge themselve to see how close to the price
point they can get, without compromising advanced features.

History showed us that Consumers will choose Linksys over Cisco.
Eventually Cisco realized they had to become Linksys, in some capacity.



Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband





WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Patrick Leary]

BRS/EBS is a different story entirely and the only place where .16e has
a reasonable home in my opinion. The power allows for a zero truck roll
model, meaning self-install indoor modems become viable. But that comes
with some cost. I believe in BRS/EBS it makes sense to invest in a 5
meter clutter study so you know EXACTLY which addresses you can connect
at the right modulation and do not vary from that plan. This keeps the
network performing best technically and enables you to target your
marketing with perfect efficiency.


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Blake Covarrubias
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:47 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

>  LTE has already won and .16e will find only small, limited life and 
> even less mass development.

Do you see any point in small BRS/EBS (MMDS/ITFS) license holders
deploying 802.16e in these frequency bands?

>  Huwaei then (in my opinion)
> uses its capture of .16e customers as the Trojan Horse to convert that

> customer to LTE later.

Is any development of LTE in the 2.5 band to make this even possible?

--
Blake Covarrubias






WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Tom DeReggi]

I hate to sabatage this 3650 thread, but I cant help myself, when 802.16e is 
mentioned for PtMP

1) Ubiquiti Mimo AP - $89,  capacity up to 150 mb, (or maybe 50mbps might be 
more fair, for avg 20 Mhz channel 2x pole).

2) Mikroik AP MIMO- $400, capacity: same as Ubiquiti, but with Spectrum 
Analysis, and a bit of hassle added.

3) Wimax 802.16e AP (1 antenna) - $9000, capacity: more efficient use of 25 
mbps.

4) Wimax 802.16d AP - ?? $2000 - $7000 ??, capacity: same as Legacy TDD 
OFDM, or CDMA OFDM if small channel in 3.65G.

5) Legacy TDD OFDM- $1800, up to 25 mbps. Better management than wifi

6) Legacy CDMA OFDM AP- $300, capacity like 14 mbps.

7) Legacy DSSS TDD -  $1300, 10mbps


In the transition from Legacy to next adjacent generation, the decissions 
might have been tough. I get it, when some justified WiMax.

But as we jump to the current day, represented at the top of the chart with 
items #1 and #2, it is almost silly to even see 802.16e in the line-up.

Ubiquiti offers 1/100th the price, at 2x to 6x higher capacity than Wimax, 
dependant on how you look at it.

Lets get real, will a WISP still consider Wimax-e, just to get a few feature 
enhancements, that is if they were to use their OWN money?
Sure, we might choose WiMax for a grant, when WiMax will help prove "Never 
able to reach profitabilty, without aid". But thats a different game.

Now, we also have to consider, just about all carriers other than Sprint, 
has preferred and will choose LTE.  Its inevidable that LTE will extinguish 
the 802.16e carrier market, so we cant even argue 802.16e will help our exit 
strategy, anymore.

Dont misunderstand me, I dont doubt WiMax's technology. Its good stuff.

So my question is, when will 802.16e manufacturers admit their original 
target market, game plan, and price list is ancient history?

Will recent industry developments force WiMax 802.16e carriers to lower 
their price points down to the levels that are in line with the WISP 
market's expectations?
Surely, its technically possible to reach those price points, Ubiquiti 
proved that, even if with Wifi chipsets.  Arguably, Intel could reach the 
same scale with 802.16e instantly, if manufacturers lowered the AP cost to 
sub $2000.

Will the BTOP/BIP program prevent price drops? Why lower price, when Grant 
programs could keep the price high for atleast 3 more years, beyond what the 
private funded operators would normally allow?

Ubiquiti has set the bar high for our industry, and has got to be the 
largest disruptive force to the ISP industry since Cogent drove transit low 
cost.

Wimax has a challenge in front of them. They lost the carrier market, and if 
you ask me, they'll lose the WISP market to, if they dont lower their price 
and up their game.

I agree, WISPs would rather a full featured WiMax product, but when its 
being compared against a $90 product that is like Wifi on steroids, its a 
new game.
I predict there will be numerous manufacturers this year filling the market 
that Mikrotik is currently leading the effort to tackle.

Its the markets where its realized that a $99 AP is not necessary, and 
compromises like giving up spectrum analysis cant be accepted, but where 
manufacturers will challenge themselve to see how close to the price point 
they can get, without compromising advanced features.

History showed us that Consumers will choose Linksys over Cisco. Eventually 
Cisco realized they had to become Linksys, in some capacity.



Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Blake Covarrubias]

>  LTE has already won and .16e will find only small, limited life and even less
> mass development.

Do you see any point in small BRS/EBS (MMDS/ITFS) license holders deploying 
802.16e in these frequency bands?

>  Huwaei then (in my opinion)
> uses its capture of .16e customers as the Trojan Horse to convert that
> customer to LTE later.

Is any development of LTE in the 2.5 band to make this even possible?

--
Blake Covarrubias





WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Josh Luthman]

And how is this product useful?

10 customers at 50/mo takes 140 months for an ROI.  Assuming that's one AP.

On 12/29/09, Gino Villarini  wrote:
> Soon as in q1 or q2
>
> IIRC
> $350~ SM
> $3500~ AP
>
> Specs are in the website under 320 series
>
> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>
>
> On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, "Tom DeReggi" 
> wrote:
>
>>> moto
>>
>> Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean
>> they are
>> talking about comming out with?
>>
>> In WISP time, there is a big difference.
>>
>> Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at
>> current
>> Canopy level price points.
>> But that is an if.
>>
>> Tom DeReggi
>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -
>> From: "Gino Villarini" 
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Cc: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>
>>
>>> Less?
>>>
>>> Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo
>>>
>>> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>>>
>>>
>>> On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, "Patrick Leary" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?
>>>>
>>>> All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less
>>>> throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get
>>>> any
>>>> hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards,
>>>> since
>>>> those are only applicable to licensed bands.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Patrick Leary
>>>> Aperto Networks
>>>> 813.426.4230 mobile
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>>>> On
>>>> Behalf Of Michael Baird
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>> Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>>>
>>>> We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band,
>>>> our
>>>> basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
>>>> already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
>>>> environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if
>>>> possible
>>>> with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
>>>> device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me
>>>> off
>>>> list I would appreciate it.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Michael Baird
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> ---
>>>> --
>>>> 
>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>> ---
>>>> ---
>>>> --
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>>
>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>>
>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> ---
>>>> ---
>>>> ---
>>>> 
>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>> ---
>>>> ---
>>>> ---
>>>> ---
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>>
>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>>
>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> -

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[3-dB Networks]

Everytime I see that pricing it makes me cringe... since I've seen Moto give
pricing way before a product is actually set to release and its way off the
mark.  I hope it's right for Moto sake :-)

Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com
dan...@3-db.net

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Gino Villarini
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Soon as in q1 or q2

IIRC
$350~ SM
$3500~ AP

Specs are in the website under 320 series

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, "Tom DeReggi"   
wrote:

>> moto
>
> Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean  
> they are
> talking about comming out with?
>
> In WISP time, there is a big difference.
>
> Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at  
> current
> Canopy level price points.
> But that is an if.
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Gino Villarini" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Cc: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
>
>> Less?
>>
>> Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo
>>
>> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>>
>>
>> On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, "Patrick Leary" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?
>>>
>>> All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less
>>> throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get
>>> any
>>> hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards,
>>> since
>>> those are only applicable to licensed bands.
>>>
>>>
>>> Patrick Leary
>>> Aperto Networks
>>> 813.426.4230 mobile
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Michael Baird
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>>
>>> We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band,  
>>> our
>>> basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
>>> already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
>>> environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if
>>> possible
>>> with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
>>> device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me  
>>> off
>>> list I would appreciate it.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Michael Baird
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> --- 
>>> --
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> ---
>>> --- 
>>> --
>>> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>>

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Gino Villarini]

Soon as in q1 or q2

IIRC
$350~ SM
$3500~ AP

Specs are in the website under 320 series

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 29, 2009, at 6:50 PM, "Tom DeReggi"   
wrote:

>> moto
>
> Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean  
> they are
> talking about comming out with?
>
> In WISP time, there is a big difference.
>
> Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at  
> current
> Canopy level price points.
> But that is an if.
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Gino Villarini" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Cc: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
>
>> Less?
>>
>> Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo
>>
>> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>>
>>
>> On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, "Patrick Leary" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?
>>>
>>> All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less
>>> throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get
>>> any
>>> hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards,
>>> since
>>> those are only applicable to licensed bands.
>>>
>>>
>>> Patrick Leary
>>> Aperto Networks
>>> 813.426.4230 mobile
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>>> On
>>> Behalf Of Michael Baird
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>>
>>> We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band,  
>>> our
>>> basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
>>> already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
>>> environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if
>>> possible
>>> with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
>>> device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me  
>>> off
>>> list I would appreciate it.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Michael Baird
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> --- 
>>> --
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> ---
>>> --- 
>>> --
>>> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> ---
>>> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
>> Checked by AVG.
>> Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date:
>> 5/15/2009 6:16 AM
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Tom DeReggi]

> moto

Did you mean they are comming out with soon? or did you really mean they are 
talking about comming out with?

In WISP time, there is a big difference.

Yeah, it would be cool if that was comming in the near future at current 
Canopy level price points.
But that is an if.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Gino Villarini" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Cc: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


> Less?
>
> Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo
>
> Sent from my Motorola Startac...
>
>
> On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, "Patrick Leary" 
> wrote:
>
>> Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?
>>
>> All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less
>> throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get
>> any
>> hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards,
>> since
>> those are only applicable to licensed bands.
>>
>>
>> Patrick Leary
>> Aperto Networks
>> 813.426.4230 mobile
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Michael Baird
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>
>> We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
>> basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
>> already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
>> environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if
>> possible
>> with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
>> device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
>> list I would appreciate it.
>>
>> Regards
>> Michael Baird
>>
>>
>> --- 
>> -
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> --- 
>> -
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> --- 
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
> -- 
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 
> 5/15/2009 6:16 AM
>
> 




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Tom DeReggi]

y. Now WISPs 
are asking, "What wifi technology compromises am I willing to deal with and 
accept in order to also have the highly valuable higher spectral efficiency 
that MIMO might deliver?"

Its possible that Wimax-D might not be the leader in spectral efficiency 
anymore. At minimum, I can argue that MIMO systems will clearly be putting 
the price pressure on WiMax vendors, or for that matter any Vendor stuck on 
legacy single stream RF designs.

I'd argue MIMO in 3650 could be very attractive even if in Dual Pol config, 
simply because there is so little spectrum, and starting new, the RF 
community could be made to conform to dual pol designs easier.

I can tell you, I personally will not pass judgement one way or the other on 
this topic. What I will say is interesting new dynamics are being explored, 
and we are "testing" technology.



Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message ----- 
From: "Patrick Leary" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear


> Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?
>
> All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less
> throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any
> hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since
> those are only applicable to licensed bands.
>
>
> Patrick Leary
> Aperto Networks
> 813.426.4230 mobile
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Michael Baird
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
> basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
> already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
> environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible
> with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
> device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
> list I would appreciate it.
>
> Regards
> Michael Baird
>
>
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
> -- 
> Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 
> 5/15/2009 6:16 AM
>
> 




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Gino Villarini]

Less?

Moto is comming out with a 16e system with 4.5 bits per hz using mimo

Sent from my Motorola Startac...


On Dec 29, 2009, at 4:45 PM, "Patrick Leary"   
wrote:

> Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?
>
> All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less
> throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get  
> any
> hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards,  
> since
> those are only applicable to licensed bands.
>
>
> Patrick Leary
> Aperto Networks
> 813.426.4230 mobile
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
> On
> Behalf Of Michael Baird
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
> basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
> already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
> environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if  
> possible
> with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
> device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
> list I would appreciate it.
>
> Regards
> Michael Baird
>
>
> --- 
> -
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> --- 
> -
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> --- 
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Patrick Leary]

I used to drink the Koolaid, but in all fairness to Alvarion, there was
much more hope for a .16e future back then. Today, not so much. LTE has
already won and .16e will find only small, limited life and even less
mass development. Even if it had a long life, .16m won't do you a lick
of good in 3.65 GHz anymore than 16e will. These are subsets of
standards that have zero to do with the type of networks all are
building in 3.65 -- fixed. The FCC power and other rules simply do not
make anything but fixed technically feasible. And when things are not
technically feasible in scale, they will never be made to be
economically feasible. That means that no one will invest any truly
significant dollars to have end devices, interoperability and all that. 

3.65 with WiMAX is GREAT for fixed, but people need to wake up from the
misguided dream that any efforts on the mobile WiMAX front have
applicability to 3.65. Trust me, the last person in the world the big
companies in the WiMAX Forum (Intel, Huwaei, etc.) care about is a WISP
owner and they have zero interest in developing products for you. The
only possible exception might be Motorola, but their offer of a 3.65 GHz
product is less of an effort to support WISPs compared to finding a home
for their sunk investment in WiMAX because they will never re-coup it on
the carrier front -- that glossy dream has vanished. (Regardless of
their motives, it is a good -- if late -- move on their part in my
view.)

I understand your fervent hopes and dreams here, but what I am telling
you will save you much pain and wasted investment and cost if you can
accept it. Anyone trying to translate serious .16e/m/etc benefits to the
fixed/3.65 (beyond the slight range advantage of diversity, but at what
cost) world greatly misunderstands the space because every facet --
technical, social, political and economic -- work against you in this
debate. It is a fact, come to it sooner or later, but it is still a
fact.

P.S. -- Alcatel dumped mobile WiMAX development many months ago and
the ranks of those dumping it continues to swell. Those who do not dump
it will find their lunch eaten by Huwaei, who is being subsidized below
cost by the Chinese government in a global strategic effort to capture a
major share of the global telecom market. Huwaei then (in my opinion)
uses its capture of .16e customers as the Trojan Horse to convert that
customer to LTE later.


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Baird
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:28 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Patrick,

16e is where the majority of the chipset development is at, and where
companies such as Alcatel/Cisco/Motorola/Alvarion/Zyxel are focusing,
and the new big deployments (Clearwire) are using 802.16e, and we want
the ability to go to 802.16m when available. We also want to take
advantage of the multipath enviroment utilizing mimo and wave 2
profiles. We have more hope of interoperability with 16e (Alvarion
states such things with it's open initiative) then we do with 16d,
although that isn't something we are counting on.

Patrick, I realize you used to work for Alvarion, and now Aperto but you
used to evangelize 802.16e and now you evangelize 802.16d, to us 802.16d
is going to be the lesser of the two technologies and offers little
advantage over our current wifi deployments, as we move to integrate
voice into our wireless deployments and replace some of our wireline
infrastructure and make a large investment in gear we want to be as
future proof as possible.

Regards
Michael Baird
> Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?
>
> All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less 
> throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get 
> any hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards,

> since those are only applicable to licensed bands.
>
>
> Patrick Leary
> Aperto Networks
> 813.426.4230 mobile
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] 
> On Behalf Of Michael Baird
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our

> basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear 
> already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban 
> environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if 
> possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external 
> gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit

> me off list I would appreciate it.
>
> Regards
> Michael Baird
>
>
> --

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Rubens Kuhl]

On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 7:28 PM, Michael Baird  wrote:
> Patrick,
>
> 16e is where the majority of the chipset development is at, and where
> companies such as Alcatel/Cisco/Motorola/Alvarion/Zyxel are focusing,
> and the new big deployments (Clearwire) are using 802.16e, and we want
> the ability to go to 802.16m when available. We also want to take

802.16m will be almost as apart from 16e as 16e is from a 16d on a
radio stand-point; network-wise 16m will follow 16e pretty close, but
that is only unfortunate as 16e requires more of a cellular structure
(BTS, BSC, so forth) which is not a WISP usually wants.

> advantage of the multipath enviroment utilizing mimo and wave 2
> profiles. We have more hope of interoperability with 16e (Alvarion
> states such things with it's open initiative) then we do with 16d,
> although that isn't something we are counting on.

I've heard too many promises from Alvarion to believe any of them. My
previous employer is still waiting for some features and
certifications on the BreezeMAX 16d gear they bought.


> Patrick, I realize you used to work for Alvarion, and now Aperto but you
> used to evangelize 802.16e and now you evangelize 802.16d, to us 802.16d
> is going to be the lesser of the two technologies and offers little
> advantage over our current wifi deployments, as we move to integrate

WiMAX has significant advantages in channel access method compared to
Wi-Fi. Proprietary gear like Alvarion VL, Aperto PacketWave and
Motorola Canopy has the same advantages and one can hope that Mikrotik
Nstreme and Ubiquiti AirMax evolve enough to achieve such a good pps
performance, but that is not the situation right now.

Regarding NLOS, I've found that the OFDM symbol proportion used in
WiMAX also gives better NLOS performance than Wi-Fi. May be one day a
new Atheros chipset may come by with such a feature...


> voice into our wireless deployments and replace some of our wireline
> infrastructure and make a large investment in gear we want to be as
> future proof as possible.

Managing voice and data is mainly a channel access issue (QoS in
marketing lingo), and 2nd a pps (packets per second) issue, both not
what Wi-Fi does best.

Personally I would convert more wireless to wireline than the other
way around...



Rubens



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Michael Baird]

Patrick,

16e is where the majority of the chipset development is at, and where 
companies such as Alcatel/Cisco/Motorola/Alvarion/Zyxel are focusing, 
and the new big deployments (Clearwire) are using 802.16e, and we want 
the ability to go to 802.16m when available. We also want to take 
advantage of the multipath enviroment utilizing mimo and wave 2 
profiles. We have more hope of interoperability with 16e (Alvarion 
states such things with it's open initiative) then we do with 16d, 
although that isn't something we are counting on.

Patrick, I realize you used to work for Alvarion, and now Aperto but you 
used to evangelize 802.16e and now you evangelize 802.16d, to us 802.16d 
is going to be the lesser of the two technologies and offers little 
advantage over our current wifi deployments, as we move to integrate 
voice into our wireless deployments and replace some of our wireline 
infrastructure and make a large investment in gear we want to be as 
future proof as possible.

Regards
Michael Baird
> Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?
>
> All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less
> throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any
> hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since
> those are only applicable to licensed bands.
>
>
> Patrick Leary
> Aperto Networks
> 813.426.4230 mobile
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Michael Baird
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
> basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
> already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
> environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible
> with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
> device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
> list I would appreciate it.
>
> Regards
> Michael Baird
>
>
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>   




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Rubens Kuhl]

Is supporting 802.16e really needed ? If you are providing your own
CPEs, 802.16d, pre-WiMAX or Navini CDMA with beamforming could work
just fine costing much less.

I've tested Redline RedMAX self-install 16d unit and 16d base station
and would give it a try on the real environment you wanna cover. I've
also tested 802.16e gear with MIMO or Beamforming (but not MIMO+BF on
the same product) and although they impressed me for building indoor
coverage,  they all suffered to work on a park very much like NYC's
Central Park.



Rubens


On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 5:53 PM, Michael Baird  wrote:
> Patrick works for Aperto, they don't support beamshaping/mimo or
> 802.16e, my Alvarion and Navini gear with the non-mimo subscriber radio
> (mimo on the tower) worked at a mile non-LOS. I appreciate the input,
> but it disputes my results in the field (rural heavily treed, not urban).
>
> Regards
> Michael Baird
>> Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile.  Patrick
>> has elaborated on this many times.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Michael Baird" 
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>
>>
>>> We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
>>> basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
>>> already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
>>> environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible
>>> with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
>>> device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
>>> list I would appreciate it.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Michael Baird
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Patrick Leary]

Why is your basic criteria .16e with MIMO (or .16e at all)?

All .16e gets you in 3.65 GHz is much more (30% more) latency, less
throughput per MHz, higher overhead and more cost. And you won't get any
hope for interoperability, indoor modems, USB dongles or PC cards, since
those are only applicable to licensed bands.


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Baird
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:22 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible
with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
list I would appreciate it.

Regards
Michael Baird




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Patrick Leary]

Actually Michael, it does not counter your field result. I worked at
Alvarion for ten years, including launching the radio you are testing
with so I know more than a little about it, but poster's comment. The
poster was referencing self-install indoor modem, but you are testing
with an outdoor CPE. You will not get likely 1/4 mile with a
self-install CPE in 3.65 GHz from Alvarion (even if it sold one) and it
has nothing to do with MIMO or beamforming. It has everything to do with
power -- at least when Alvarion first tried to certify the indoor modem
the FCC still considered it a mobile device, thus subject to the greatly
reduced power of a mobile device in 3.65 relative to a fixed outdoor
CPE. 


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Baird
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:53 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Patrick works for Aperto, they don't support beamshaping/mimo or
802.16e, my Alvarion and Navini gear with the non-mimo subscriber radio
(mimo on the tower) worked at a mile non-LOS. I appreciate the input,
but it disputes my results in the field (rural heavily treed, not
urban).

Regards
Michael Baird
> Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile.  
> Patrick has elaborated on this many times.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Michael Baird" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
>   
>> We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, 
>> our basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear 
>> already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban 
>> environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if 
>> possible with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external 
>> gateway device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or 
>> hit me off list I would appreciate it.
>>
>> Regards
>> Michael Baird
>>
>>
>> -
>> ---
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> -
>> ---
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>> 
>
>
> --
> --
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> --
> --
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>   





WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Josh Luthman]

That's what I had in my head typed it out wrong.

Do you have much foliage in the way?  Was this all LOS driving around?

I would imagine once you get inside a house things changes drastically
coming from a truck.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
--- Albert Einstein


On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Michael Baird  wrote:

> Back seat of truck facing the roof, not truck bed.
>
> Regards
> Michael Baird
> > Good information.
> >
> > Keep in mind customer self installs != radio in truck bed.
> >
> > Josh Luthman
> > Office: 937-552-2340
> > Direct: 937-552-2343
> > 1100 Wayne St
> > Suite 1337
> > Troy, OH 45373
> >
> > "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
> > --- Albert Einstein
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Michael Baird  wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Josh,
> >>
> >> I tested via a truck, I could take the Alvarion unit and put it on the
> >> back seat of the extended cab, and it worked everywhere within a mile
> >> radius I drove to. This was an outdoor unit with a 14.5 db panel,
> >> strictly speaking I was testing outdoor (I wanted SI's from Alvarion but
> >> they aren't available for 3.65 yet). I was supposing that the SI with a
> >> multiple antenna array and higher transmit would perform similarily to a
> >> radio sitting flat on the seat of a truck, maybe it was a bad
> supposition.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> Michael Baird
> >>
> >>> Are you (Michael) talking about self install or outdoor install?
> >>>
> >>> Mike (Hammett) is talking about self installs.
> >>>
> >>> Josh Luthman
> >>> Office: 937-552-2340
> >>> Direct: 937-552-2343
> >>> 1100 Wayne St
> >>> Suite 1337
> >>> Troy, OH 45373
> >>>
> >>> "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
> >>> --- Albert Einstein
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Michael Baird 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Patrick works for Aperto, they don't support beamshaping/mimo or
> >>>> 802.16e, my Alvarion and Navini gear with the non-mimo subscriber
> radio
> >>>> (mimo on the tower) worked at a mile non-LOS. I appreciate the input,
> >>>> but it disputes my results in the field (rural heavily treed, not
> >>>>
> >> urban).
> >>
> >>>> Regards
> >>>> Michael Baird
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile.
> >>>>>
> >>  Patrick
> >>
> >>>>> has elaborated on this many times.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> -
> >>>>> Mike Hammett
> >>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> >>>>> http://www.ics-il.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> From: "Michael Baird" 
> >>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM
> >>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
> >>>>> Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band,
> our
> >>>>>> basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
> >>>>>> already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
> >>>>>> environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if
> >>>>>>
> >> possible
> >>
> >>>>>> with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
> >>>>>> device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me
> off
> >>>>>> list I would appreciate it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>> Michael Baird
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>
> ---

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Michael Baird]

Back seat of truck facing the roof, not truck bed.

Regards
Michael Baird
> Good information.
>
> Keep in mind customer self installs != radio in truck bed.
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
> --- Albert Einstein
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Michael Baird  wrote:
>
>   
>> Josh,
>>
>> I tested via a truck, I could take the Alvarion unit and put it on the
>> back seat of the extended cab, and it worked everywhere within a mile
>> radius I drove to. This was an outdoor unit with a 14.5 db panel,
>> strictly speaking I was testing outdoor (I wanted SI's from Alvarion but
>> they aren't available for 3.65 yet). I was supposing that the SI with a
>> multiple antenna array and higher transmit would perform similarily to a
>> radio sitting flat on the seat of a truck, maybe it was a bad supposition.
>>
>> Regards
>> Michael Baird
>> 
>>> Are you (Michael) talking about self install or outdoor install?
>>>
>>> Mike (Hammett) is talking about self installs.
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>> "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
>>> --- Albert Einstein
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Michael Baird  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>> Patrick works for Aperto, they don't support beamshaping/mimo or
>>>> 802.16e, my Alvarion and Navini gear with the non-mimo subscriber radio
>>>> (mimo on the tower) worked at a mile non-LOS. I appreciate the input,
>>>> but it disputes my results in the field (rural heavily treed, not
>>>> 
>> urban).
>> 
>>>> Regards
>>>> Michael Baird
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>>> Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile.
>>>>>   
>>  Patrick
>> 
>>>>> has elaborated on this many times.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -
>>>>> Mike Hammett
>>>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> From: "Michael Baird" 
>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM
>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>>>> Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   
>>>>>> We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
>>>>>> basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
>>>>>> already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
>>>>>> environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if
>>>>>> 
>> possible
>> 
>>>>>> with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
>>>>>> device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
>>>>>> list I would appreciate it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>> Michael Baird
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>> 
>> 
>>>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>> 
>> 
>>>>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>   
>> -

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Gino Villarini]

Ouch :-(

Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
787.273.4143

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:09 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Q3 is a better guess I think...

Travis
Microserv


Gino Villarini wrote:
> Wait for q1 release of the Canopy 320, all that and more
>
> Gino A. Villarini
> g...@aeronetpr.com
> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
> 787.273.4143
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
On
> Behalf Of Michael Baird
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:22 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our

> basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear 
> already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban 
> environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if
possible 
> with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway 
> device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off 
> list I would appreciate it.
>
> Regards
> Michael Baird
>
>
>

> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>

> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>


> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>


>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>   




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Josh Luthman]

Good information.

Keep in mind customer self installs != radio in truck bed.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
--- Albert Einstein


On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 3:00 PM, Michael Baird  wrote:

> Josh,
>
> I tested via a truck, I could take the Alvarion unit and put it on the
> back seat of the extended cab, and it worked everywhere within a mile
> radius I drove to. This was an outdoor unit with a 14.5 db panel,
> strictly speaking I was testing outdoor (I wanted SI's from Alvarion but
> they aren't available for 3.65 yet). I was supposing that the SI with a
> multiple antenna array and higher transmit would perform similarily to a
> radio sitting flat on the seat of a truck, maybe it was a bad supposition.
>
> Regards
> Michael Baird
> > Are you (Michael) talking about self install or outdoor install?
> >
> > Mike (Hammett) is talking about self installs.
> >
> > Josh Luthman
> > Office: 937-552-2340
> > Direct: 937-552-2343
> > 1100 Wayne St
> > Suite 1337
> > Troy, OH 45373
> >
> > "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
> > --- Albert Einstein
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Michael Baird  wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Patrick works for Aperto, they don't support beamshaping/mimo or
> >> 802.16e, my Alvarion and Navini gear with the non-mimo subscriber radio
> >> (mimo on the tower) worked at a mile non-LOS. I appreciate the input,
> >> but it disputes my results in the field (rural heavily treed, not
> urban).
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> Michael Baird
> >>
> >>> Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile.
>  Patrick
> >>> has elaborated on this many times.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -
> >>> Mike Hammett
> >>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> >>> http://www.ics-il.com
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> From: "Michael Baird" 
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM
> >>> To: "WISPA General List" 
> >>> Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
> >>>> basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
> >>>> already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
> >>>> environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if
> possible
> >>>> with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
> >>>> device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
> >>>> list I would appreciate it.
> >>>>
> >>>> Regards
> >>>> Michael Baird
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 
> >>
> >>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>
> 
> >>
> >>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >>>>
> >>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> >>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >>>>
> >>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> 
> >>
> >>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >>> http://signup.wispa.org/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> 
> >>
> >>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >>>
> >>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> >>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >>>
> >>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> 
> >> 

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Travis Johnson]

Q3 is a better guess I think...

Travis
Microserv


Gino Villarini wrote:
> Wait for q1 release of the Canopy 320, all that and more
>
> Gino A. Villarini
> g...@aeronetpr.com
> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
> 787.273.4143
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Michael Baird
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:22 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our 
> basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear 
> already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban 
> environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible 
> with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway 
> device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off 
> list I would appreciate it.
>
> Regards
> Michael Baird
>
>
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>   



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Jerry Richardson]

What you are asking for is going to be priced accordingly.

If you are looking for low cost 3.65 it's going to be Tranzeo or Ubiquity cards 
on MT.

One interesting combination is that Tranzeo makes CPE's that inter-operate with 
Redline.

We'll wait for CAP320 as screwing with anything lese is a waste of our time and 
energy.

Jerry


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Michael Baird
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 11:44 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

Gino,

Where can I find detailed info on the product there doesn't seem to be 
much available in regards to it's routing features. I'm also concerned 
about the CPE cost/licenses that's what drove us from Canopy before.

Regards
Michael Baird
> Wait for q1 release of the Canopy 320, all that and more
>
> Gino A. Villarini
> g...@aeronetpr.com
> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
> 787.273.4143
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Michael Baird
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:22 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our 
> basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear 
> already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban 
> environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible 
> with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway 
> device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off 
> list I would appreciate it.
>
> Regards
> Michael Baird
>
>
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>   




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Michael Baird]

Josh,

I tested via a truck, I could take the Alvarion unit and put it on the 
back seat of the extended cab, and it worked everywhere within a mile 
radius I drove to. This was an outdoor unit with a 14.5 db panel, 
strictly speaking I was testing outdoor (I wanted SI's from Alvarion but 
they aren't available for 3.65 yet). I was supposing that the SI with a 
multiple antenna array and higher transmit would perform similarily to a 
radio sitting flat on the seat of a truck, maybe it was a bad supposition.

Regards
Michael Baird
> Are you (Michael) talking about self install or outdoor install?
>
> Mike (Hammett) is talking about self installs.
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
> --- Albert Einstein
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Michael Baird  wrote:
>
>   
>> Patrick works for Aperto, they don't support beamshaping/mimo or
>> 802.16e, my Alvarion and Navini gear with the non-mimo subscriber radio
>> (mimo on the tower) worked at a mile non-LOS. I appreciate the input,
>> but it disputes my results in the field (rural heavily treed, not urban).
>>
>> Regards
>> Michael Baird
>> 
>>> Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile.  Patrick
>>> has elaborated on this many times.
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> From: "Michael Baird" 
>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>>>
>>>
>>>   
>>>> We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
>>>> basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
>>>> already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
>>>> environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible
>>>> with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
>>>> device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
>>>> list I would appreciate it.
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Michael Baird
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>> 
>> 
>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>>
>>>> 
>> 
>> 
>>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>>
>>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>>
>>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>
>>>   
>> 
>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>
>>>   
>> 
>> 
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>
>>>   
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>> 
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>   




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Josh Luthman]

Are you (Michael) talking about self install or outdoor install?

Mike (Hammett) is talking about self installs.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."
--- Albert Einstein


On Tue, Dec 29, 2009 at 2:53 PM, Michael Baird  wrote:

> Patrick works for Aperto, they don't support beamshaping/mimo or
> 802.16e, my Alvarion and Navini gear with the non-mimo subscriber radio
> (mimo on the tower) worked at a mile non-LOS. I appreciate the input,
> but it disputes my results in the field (rural heavily treed, not urban).
>
> Regards
> Michael Baird
> > Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile.  Patrick
> > has elaborated on this many times.
> >
> >
> > -
> > Mike Hammett
> > Intelligent Computing Solutions
> > http://www.ics-il.com
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > From: "Michael Baird" 
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM
> > To: "WISPA General List" 
> > Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
> >
> >
> >> We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
> >> basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
> >> already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
> >> environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible
> >> with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
> >> device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
> >> list I would appreciate it.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >> Michael Baird
> >>
> >>
> >>
> 
> >> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >> http://signup.wispa.org/
> >>
> 
> >>
> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >>
> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >>
> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> 
> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Michael Baird]

Patrick works for Aperto, they don't support beamshaping/mimo or 
802.16e, my Alvarion and Navini gear with the non-mimo subscriber radio 
(mimo on the tower) worked at a mile non-LOS. I appreciate the input, 
but it disputes my results in the field (rural heavily treed, not urban).

Regards
Michael Baird
> Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile.  Patrick 
> has elaborated on this many times.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Michael Baird" 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
>   
>> We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
>> basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
>> already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
>> environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible
>> with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
>> device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
>> list I would appreciate it.
>>
>> Regards
>> Michael Baird
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>> 
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>   




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Michael Baird]

Gino,

Where can I find detailed info on the product there doesn't seem to be 
much available in regards to it's routing features. I'm also concerned 
about the CPE cost/licenses that's what drove us from Canopy before.

Regards
Michael Baird
> Wait for q1 release of the Canopy 320, all that and more
>
> Gino A. Villarini
> g...@aeronetpr.com
> Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
> 787.273.4143
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Michael Baird
> Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:22 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear
>
> We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our 
> basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear 
> already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban 
> environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible 
> with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway 
> device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off 
> list I would appreciate it.
>
> Regards
> Michael Baird
>
>
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>   




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Mike Hammett]

Self install won't work in 3650 beyond 1/4 mile, maybe 1/2 mile.  Patrick 
has elaborated on this many times.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Michael Baird" 
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 1:22 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

> We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our
> basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear
> already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban
> environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible
> with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway
> device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off
> list I would appreciate it.
>
> Regards
> Michael Baird
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax gear

[Gino Villarini]

Wait for q1 release of the Canopy 320, all that and more

Gino A. Villarini
g...@aeronetpr.com
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
787.273.4143

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Baird
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 3:22 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Wimax gear

We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our 
basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear 
already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban 
environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible 
with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway 
device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off 
list I would appreciate it.

Regards
Michael Baird




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

[WISPA] Wimax gear

[Michael Baird]

We are looking for some more wimax gear to test for the 3.65 band, our 
basic criteria would be 802.16e/mimo, we've tested Alvarion gear 
already. We are looking for something that will work in an urban 
environment with self install radios, can deliver voice and if possible 
with PPP/NAT/DHCP in the radio rather then as an external gateway 
device. If any dealers out there would like to chime in or hit me off 
list I would appreciate it.

Regards
Michael Baird



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax 802.16d v 802.16e

[Ben Wiechman]

16e output power depends on frequency band in use. For 3650 the same
limitations that were mentioned would apply: 1W per MHz. If unlicensed bands
were added to the profiles output power would be limited as it currently is,
typically to 4W EIRP. In 2.5GHz the limitation is related to received signal
level at the GSA boundry, must be -97 or less at 5' AGL, with a few other
restrictions to keep line of site received signal levels in check and a few
other rules governing limitations if there are no operators at your GSA
boundry using those channels. This gives you much more output power to work
with, however the CPE typically have much less output power available for
the uplink connection which serves to limit range and require receive
diversity and the MIMO techniques provided by WiMAX.

On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 10:42 PM, Chuck Bartosch
wrote:

>
> On Apr 21, 2009, at 7:29 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote:
>
> > Chuck,
> >
> > That is defiantely a plus now. But isn't that like a false advantage
> > in the
> > long run?
> > With only 20-30Mhz of spectrum, will it stay noise free for long?
>
> For some reason I thought it was 50 MHz of bandwidth, but in any case,
> the question is reasonable, and unanswerable. However, there is *some*
> protection for the band. Because you need a license (even if it's
> license light), you're not going to have Best Buy selling home phones,
> garage door openers, and indoor WAPs that get used outdoors messing up
> the spectrum. So I'd guess the situation won't be like what we see in
> 900, 2.4, and 5.8.
>
> >> in .16d you get to use 1 watt per MHz of channel size.
> >
> > How much watts per Mhz for 16e?
>
> I did a quick google for that but couldn't find it, even on the
> wimax.com web site. However, I know there's grumbling about the
> mobility play not being as useful as it could be due to the lack of
> power in .16e.
>
> > On a side note, anyone know why FCC decided to reward people using
> > larger
> > channels with more power?
>
> It's been discussed before on the lists (I'd be willing to bet Scriv
> knows why, assuming it's correct in the first place) but I don't know
> the answer, and remember my "iirc", meaning I've been told that by a
> manufacturer but I can't swear that it's an accurate statement.
>
> Chuck
>
> >
> > Wouldn't it have been more politically correct to reward those that
> > used
> > smaller more efficient channels with higher power, to give them a
> > reason to
> > be more efficient? I'm sure there is a technical reason, that I don't
> > understand, yet.
> >
> > Tom DeReggi
> > RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> > IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "Chuck Bartosch" 
> > To: "WISPA General List" 
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 6:59 PM
> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax 802.16d v 802.16e
> >
> >
> >>
> >> On Apr 21, 2009, at 6:39 PM, Michael Baird wrote:
> >>
> >>> Have you deployed it? From my initial research, it appears that the
> >>> bigger vendors Motorola/Alverion are supporting the 802.16e variety,
> >>> while the smaller vendors such as Tranzeo are supporting the 802.16d
> >>> variety. I'm aware of the advantages at the Mac Layer, but why would
> >>> 802.16d at 3.65 with a slightly higher EIRP at 7 mhz channel spacing
> >>> have better range then 802.11 variants at 2.4?
> >>
> >> Noise. You should get, iirc, a 20 db lower noise floor at 3.65. Also,
> >> (again, iirc), in .16d you get to use 1 watt per MHz of channel size.
> >> So with a 7 MHz channel you have 7 watts to work with. The noise
> >> floor
> >> alone is worth 100x the power, and the extra EIRP is just a bonus.
> >>
> >> Chuck
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The 802.16d unit specs I've looked at don't appear to scale much
> >>> higher
> >>> then the 2.4 units, but 802.16e appears to have the 2x2, 4x4 antenna
> >>> tech that it seems would make a big difference at range. What's the
> >>> magic that makes 802.16d work better then 802.11 variants as far as
> >>> coverage, with essentially the same power but at a higher frequency?
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>> Michael Baird
> >>>> Here is the quick answer:
> >>>> 802.16d is a fixed only technology (no mobility) which performs
> >>>> quite
> >>>>

Re: [WISPA] Wimax 802.16d v 802.16e

[Patrick Leary]

This is about as concise and accurate as can be said...Nice summary
Scriv. 


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 10:37 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax 802.16d v 802.16e

Here is the quick answer:
802.16d is a fixed only technology (no mobility) which performs quite
well for delivering broadband to homes and businesses. Highly available.
Secure. More expensive, more scalable and somewhat higher latency than
similar fixed technologies based on 802.11 and other proprietary systems
similar to 802.11. Most prominently used in 3.65 GHz in the US. Heavily
used in 3.5 GHz in  international areas where no copper plant has been
installed previously. Unique feature of this technology is the ability
to provision service flows with predictable performance criteria. This
enables SLA provisioning on wireless broadband virtual circuits and many
other advantages over any other broadband platform (wireless or wired).

802.16e is a fixed and mobile platform. This is being used now in 2.5
GHz licensed band in the US and elsewhere. Very little has been done to
take full advantage of mobility in this band. More expensive to deploy
than 802.16d. Higher latency than 802.16d. This is a direct competitor
to LTE systems for cellular. If you do not hold an exclusive licensee in
2.5 GHz then this is not likely an option for you at this time.

For more input and more help take it to the memb...@wispa.org list for
paid members and we can dig into it deeper including step by step
instructions for getting your own 3.65 license and applying for
locations.
Scriv


On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 8:26 AM, Michael Baird  wrote:
> I'm researching these two technologies and Wimax in general, does 
> anyone have any firsthand experience with the two current different 
> types of Wimax, or references to the differences in the two different 
> types of technologies for broadband fixed rural deployments?
>
> Regards
> Michael Baird
>
>
> --
> --
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> --
> --
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Wimax 802.16d v 802.16e

[Chuck Bartosch]

On Apr 21, 2009, at 7:29 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote:

> Chuck,
>
> That is defiantely a plus now. But isn't that like a false advantage  
> in the
> long run?
> With only 20-30Mhz of spectrum, will it stay noise free for long?

For some reason I thought it was 50 MHz of bandwidth, but in any case,  
the question is reasonable, and unanswerable. However, there is *some*  
protection for the band. Because you need a license (even if it's  
license light), you're not going to have Best Buy selling home phones,  
garage door openers, and indoor WAPs that get used outdoors messing up  
the spectrum. So I'd guess the situation won't be like what we see in  
900, 2.4, and 5.8.

>> in .16d you get to use 1 watt per MHz of channel size.
>
> How much watts per Mhz for 16e?

I did a quick google for that but couldn't find it, even on the  
wimax.com web site. However, I know there's grumbling about the  
mobility play not being as useful as it could be due to the lack of  
power in .16e.

> On a side note, anyone know why FCC decided to reward people using   
> larger
> channels with more power?

It's been discussed before on the lists (I'd be willing to bet Scriv  
knows why, assuming it's correct in the first place) but I don't know  
the answer, and remember my "iirc", meaning I've been told that by a  
manufacturer but I can't swear that it's an accurate statement.

Chuck

>
> Wouldn't it have been more politically correct to reward those that  
> used
> smaller more efficient channels with higher power, to give them a  
> reason to
> be more efficient? I'm sure there is a technical reason, that I don't
> understand, yet.
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Chuck Bartosch" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 6:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax 802.16d v 802.16e
>
>
>>
>> On Apr 21, 2009, at 6:39 PM, Michael Baird wrote:
>>
>>> Have you deployed it? From my initial research, it appears that the
>>> bigger vendors Motorola/Alverion are supporting the 802.16e variety,
>>> while the smaller vendors such as Tranzeo are supporting the 802.16d
>>> variety. I'm aware of the advantages at the Mac Layer, but why would
>>> 802.16d at 3.65 with a slightly higher EIRP at 7 mhz channel spacing
>>> have better range then 802.11 variants at 2.4?
>>
>> Noise. You should get, iirc, a 20 db lower noise floor at 3.65. Also,
>> (again, iirc), in .16d you get to use 1 watt per MHz of channel size.
>> So with a 7 MHz channel you have 7 watts to work with. The noise  
>> floor
>> alone is worth 100x the power, and the extra EIRP is just a bonus.
>>
>> Chuck
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The 802.16d unit specs I've looked at don't appear to scale much
>>> higher
>>> then the 2.4 units, but 802.16e appears to have the 2x2, 4x4 antenna
>>> tech that it seems would make a big difference at range. What's the
>>> magic that makes 802.16d work better then 802.11 variants as far as
>>> coverage, with essentially the same power but at a higher frequency?
>>>
>>> Regards
>>> Michael Baird
>>>> Here is the quick answer:
>>>> 802.16d is a fixed only technology (no mobility) which performs  
>>>> quite
>>>> well for delivering broadband to homes and businesses. Highly
>>>> available. Secure. More expensive, more scalable and somewhat  
>>>> higher
>>>> latency than similar fixed technologies based on 802.11 and other
>>>> proprietary systems similar to 802.11. Most prominently used in  
>>>> 3.65
>>>> GHz in the US. Heavily used in 3.5 GHz in  international areas  
>>>> where
>>>> no copper plant has been installed previously. Unique feature of  
>>>> this
>>>> technology is the ability to provision service flows with  
>>>> predictable
>>>> performance criteria. This enables SLA provisioning on wireless
>>>> broadband virtual circuits and many other advantages over any other
>>>> broadband platform (wireless or wired).
>>>>
>>>> 802.16e is a fixed and mobile platform. This is being used now in  
>>>> 2.5
>>>> GHz licensed band in the US and elsewhere. Very little has been  
>>>> done
>>>> to take full advantage of mobility in this band. More expensive to
>>>> deploy than 802.16d. Higher latency than 

Re: [WISPA] Wimax 802.16d v 802.16e

[eje]

Unfortunately for reason I don't understand (because what you say to me as well 
seems to make more sense) they measure by spectral density power strength. So 
you can only do so much power per MHz. This of course means just what you say 
the wider channel your allowed to use the higher power levels you can 
accommodate. Since you have more spectral space to do the power in. 

/Eje
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-Original Message-
From: "Tom DeReggi" 

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 2009 19:29:57 
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax 802.16d v 802.16e


Chuck,

That is defiantely a plus now. But isn't that like a false advantage in the 
long run?
With only 20-30Mhz of spectrum, will it stay noise free for long?

>in .16d you get to use 1 watt per MHz of channel size.

How much watts per Mhz for 16e?

On a side note, anyone know why FCC decided to reward people using  larger 
channels with more power?
Wouldn't it have been more politically correct to reward those that used 
smaller more efficient channels with higher power, to give them a reason to 
be more efficient? I'm sure there is a technical reason, that I don't 
understand, yet.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck Bartosch" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax 802.16d v 802.16e


>
> On Apr 21, 2009, at 6:39 PM, Michael Baird wrote:
>
>> Have you deployed it? From my initial research, it appears that the
>> bigger vendors Motorola/Alverion are supporting the 802.16e variety,
>> while the smaller vendors such as Tranzeo are supporting the 802.16d
>> variety. I'm aware of the advantages at the Mac Layer, but why would
>> 802.16d at 3.65 with a slightly higher EIRP at 7 mhz channel spacing
>> have better range then 802.11 variants at 2.4?
>
> Noise. You should get, iirc, a 20 db lower noise floor at 3.65. Also,
> (again, iirc), in .16d you get to use 1 watt per MHz of channel size.
> So with a 7 MHz channel you have 7 watts to work with. The noise floor
> alone is worth 100x the power, and the extra EIRP is just a bonus.
>
> Chuck
>
>>
>>
>> The 802.16d unit specs I've looked at don't appear to scale much
>> higher
>> then the 2.4 units, but 802.16e appears to have the 2x2, 4x4 antenna
>> tech that it seems would make a big difference at range. What's the
>> magic that makes 802.16d work better then 802.11 variants as far as
>> coverage, with essentially the same power but at a higher frequency?
>>
>> Regards
>> Michael Baird
>>> Here is the quick answer:
>>> 802.16d is a fixed only technology (no mobility) which performs quite
>>> well for delivering broadband to homes and businesses. Highly
>>> available. Secure. More expensive, more scalable and somewhat higher
>>> latency than similar fixed technologies based on 802.11 and other
>>> proprietary systems similar to 802.11. Most prominently used in 3.65
>>> GHz in the US. Heavily used in 3.5 GHz in  international areas where
>>> no copper plant has been installed previously. Unique feature of this
>>> technology is the ability to provision service flows with predictable
>>> performance criteria. This enables SLA provisioning on wireless
>>> broadband virtual circuits and many other advantages over any other
>>> broadband platform (wireless or wired).
>>>
>>> 802.16e is a fixed and mobile platform. This is being used now in 2.5
>>> GHz licensed band in the US and elsewhere. Very little has been done
>>> to take full advantage of mobility in this band. More expensive to
>>> deploy than 802.16d. Higher latency than 802.16d. This is a direct
>>> competitor to LTE systems for cellular. If you do not hold an
>>> exclusive licensee in  2.5 GHz then this is not likely an option for
>>> you at this time.
>>>
>>> For more input and more help take it to the memb...@wispa.org list
>>> for
>>> paid members and we can dig into it deeper including step by step
>>> instructions for getting your own 3.65 license and applying for
>>> locations.
>>> Scriv
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 8:26 AM, Michael Baird 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm researching these two technologies and Wimax in general, does
>>>> anyone
>>>> have any firsthand experience with the two current different types
>>>> of
>>>> Wimax, or references to the differences in 

Re: [WISPA] Wimax 802.16d v 802.16e

[Tom DeReggi]

Chuck,

That is defiantely a plus now. But isn't that like a false advantage in the 
long run?
With only 20-30Mhz of spectrum, will it stay noise free for long?

>in .16d you get to use 1 watt per MHz of channel size.

How much watts per Mhz for 16e?

On a side note, anyone know why FCC decided to reward people using  larger 
channels with more power?
Wouldn't it have been more politically correct to reward those that used 
smaller more efficient channels with higher power, to give them a reason to 
be more efficient? I'm sure there is a technical reason, that I don't 
understand, yet.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Chuck Bartosch" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2009 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Wimax 802.16d v 802.16e


>
> On Apr 21, 2009, at 6:39 PM, Michael Baird wrote:
>
>> Have you deployed it? From my initial research, it appears that the
>> bigger vendors Motorola/Alverion are supporting the 802.16e variety,
>> while the smaller vendors such as Tranzeo are supporting the 802.16d
>> variety. I'm aware of the advantages at the Mac Layer, but why would
>> 802.16d at 3.65 with a slightly higher EIRP at 7 mhz channel spacing
>> have better range then 802.11 variants at 2.4?
>
> Noise. You should get, iirc, a 20 db lower noise floor at 3.65. Also,
> (again, iirc), in .16d you get to use 1 watt per MHz of channel size.
> So with a 7 MHz channel you have 7 watts to work with. The noise floor
> alone is worth 100x the power, and the extra EIRP is just a bonus.
>
> Chuck
>
>>
>>
>> The 802.16d unit specs I've looked at don't appear to scale much
>> higher
>> then the 2.4 units, but 802.16e appears to have the 2x2, 4x4 antenna
>> tech that it seems would make a big difference at range. What's the
>> magic that makes 802.16d work better then 802.11 variants as far as
>> coverage, with essentially the same power but at a higher frequency?
>>
>> Regards
>> Michael Baird
>>> Here is the quick answer:
>>> 802.16d is a fixed only technology (no mobility) which performs quite
>>> well for delivering broadband to homes and businesses. Highly
>>> available. Secure. More expensive, more scalable and somewhat higher
>>> latency than similar fixed technologies based on 802.11 and other
>>> proprietary systems similar to 802.11. Most prominently used in 3.65
>>> GHz in the US. Heavily used in 3.5 GHz in  international areas where
>>> no copper plant has been installed previously. Unique feature of this
>>> technology is the ability to provision service flows with predictable
>>> performance criteria. This enables SLA provisioning on wireless
>>> broadband virtual circuits and many other advantages over any other
>>> broadband platform (wireless or wired).
>>>
>>> 802.16e is a fixed and mobile platform. This is being used now in 2.5
>>> GHz licensed band in the US and elsewhere. Very little has been done
>>> to take full advantage of mobility in this band. More expensive to
>>> deploy than 802.16d. Higher latency than 802.16d. This is a direct
>>> competitor to LTE systems for cellular. If you do not hold an
>>> exclusive licensee in  2.5 GHz then this is not likely an option for
>>> you at this time.
>>>
>>> For more input and more help take it to the memb...@wispa.org list
>>> for
>>> paid members and we can dig into it deeper including step by step
>>> instructions for getting your own 3.65 license and applying for
>>> locations.
>>> Scriv
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 8:26 AM, Michael Baird 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm researching these two technologies and Wimax in general, does
>>>> anyone
>>>> have any firsthand experience with the two current different types
>>>> of
>>>> Wimax, or references to the differences in the two different types
>>>> of
>>>> technologies for broadband fixed rural deployments?
>>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>> Michael Baird
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>>
>>>> Sub