Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-07 Thread Austin Wright
That is a great point Tom, I definitely agree that there is a [huge]
difference between a large wisp and a roll up.  Don't get me wrong, Digis
had plenty of rollin up goin for them; however, when I was an installer at
Digis we installed over 900 fixed-point customers in one month (all on
Canopy), and that was even during a rough Rocky Mountain winter month,
January '07.  Keep in mind that we only had about 10 installers as well.
Most of these new customers came from our 'Crazy' referral program: refer 5
friends get FIVE years of internet for FREE!  This was accomplished in a
cable dominant market as well THE largest fiber-to-the-home municipal
deployment in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IProvo). I
don't care how big your investor's pockets are or what equipment is being
used, that shows a lot about Digis as a company.  I was there, and it was
more about processes than anything else.  It wasn't about new vans/trucks,
it was scheduling smarter to avoid wasted travel time.  It wasn't about
aggressive marketing and sales, it was about providing better service so our
customers would sell for us.  As employees, we never saw the money side of
things and we actually cut a lot of our expenses, JAB gave us the confidence
that we were something worth investing in and we wanted to prove them right.

I saw Digis grow firsthand from 1,500 to 25,000 customers in less than two
years and am more than happy to answer any questions off-list regarding my
experience there...

I would go off on how Powercode helped create, complete, and maintain these
numbers, but I don't feel comfortable doing that at least until we're
officially a WISPA vendor member in the next couple weeks.  Then you'll get
a nice little WISPA sponsored advertisement telling you all about it :)
(And yes, I am definitely calling out Avansu and Demarc on abusing this list
to self-promote and help themselves rather than helping the WISP community
as a whole)

Happy Holidays!

Austin W.
Product Manager
Powercode
801.701.6205
www.powercode.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

OK, we'll give you JAB, as one of the largest WISPs that uses Canopy.

However,  it should be noted there is a difference between a large wisp and 
a roll up.
Sure if a Roll up just aquired a lot of WISPs, they are going to be a Large 
company of one product line.
Its purely coincidental that it played out that way. Had there been a 
Alvarion or Trango roll up, they could easilly scale to same proportion.
Its not necessarilly fair to compare a Roll up venture to original owner 
companies.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


 JAB?  They probably have 50,000 subs by now.  Canopy shop.

 - Original Message - 
 From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


 Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.

 But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that
 back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider
 market.

 What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban
 WISPs. They use Aperto.
 What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two
 occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of
 Alvarion later on.
 What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of
 Trango
 at one point.
 What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
 What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was
 mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
 What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
 primarilly a Canopy shop.

 Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in
 compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond.
 But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.

 You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most
 all
 of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the
 largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to
 now
 buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that
 Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay.

 I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap
 frog
 game.  Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently,
 because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application
 on
 this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may
 bring the next

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-07 Thread Tom DeReggi
I have to say, it had to be pretty exciting being a part of a company that 
was accomplishing such successful growth.
I can tell you first hand, its not easy to grow.  When someone is doing it 
well, they are clearly doing multiple things right.
I'm sure Powercode was one of them.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Austin Wright [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2008 5:48 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


 That is a great point Tom, I definitely agree that there is a [huge]
 difference between a large wisp and a roll up.  Don't get me wrong, Digis
 had plenty of rollin up goin for them; however, when I was an installer at
 Digis we installed over 900 fixed-point customers in one month (all on
 Canopy), and that was even during a rough Rocky Mountain winter month,
 January '07.  Keep in mind that we only had about 10 installers as well.
 Most of these new customers came from our 'Crazy' referral program: refer 
 5
 friends get FIVE years of internet for FREE!  This was accomplished in a
 cable dominant market as well THE largest fiber-to-the-home municipal
 deployment in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IProvo). I
 don't care how big your investor's pockets are or what equipment is being
 used, that shows a lot about Digis as a company.  I was there, and it was
 more about processes than anything else.  It wasn't about new vans/trucks,
 it was scheduling smarter to avoid wasted travel time.  It wasn't about
 aggressive marketing and sales, it was about providing better service so 
 our
 customers would sell for us.  As employees, we never saw the money side of
 things and we actually cut a lot of our expenses, JAB gave us the 
 confidence
 that we were something worth investing in and we wanted to prove them 
 right.

 I saw Digis grow firsthand from 1,500 to 25,000 customers in less than two
 years and am more than happy to answer any questions off-list regarding my
 experience there...

 I would go off on how Powercode helped create, complete, and maintain 
 these
 numbers, but I don't feel comfortable doing that at least until we're
 officially a WISPA vendor member in the next couple weeks.  Then you'll 
 get
 a nice little WISPA sponsored advertisement telling you all about it :)
 (And yes, I am definitely calling out Avansu and Demarc on abusing this 
 list
 to self-promote and help themselves rather than helping the WISP community
 as a whole)

 Happy Holidays!

 Austin W.
 Product Manager
 Powercode
 801.701.6205
 www.powercode.com


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:34 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 OK, we'll give you JAB, as one of the largest WISPs that uses Canopy.

 However,  it should be noted there is a difference between a large wisp 
 and
 a roll up.
 Sure if a Roll up just aquired a lot of WISPs, they are going to be a 
 Large
 company of one product line.
 Its purely coincidental that it played out that way. Had there been a
 Alvarion or Trango roll up, they could easilly scale to same proportion.
 Its not necessarilly fair to compare a Roll up venture to original owner
 companies.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message - 
 From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:11 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


 JAB?  They probably have 50,000 subs by now.  Canopy shop.

 - Original Message - 
 From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


 Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.

 But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that
 back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider
 market.

 What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban
 WISPs. They use Aperto.
 What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two
 occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of
 Alvarion later on.
 What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of
 Trango
 at one point.
 What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
 What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he 
 was
 mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
 What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
 primarilly a Canopy shop.

 Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve 
 in
 compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond.
 But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.

 You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-06 Thread 3-dB Networks
Eje,

I know you don't work closely with Motorola... but I interact with an
employee over there at least once a week... often times more.

The handset division is killing Motorola, this is public knowledge.  Until
the split occurs and they sell off the division (which they have also made
that intention public) I don't see Motorola as a whole looking good as a
company.

Motorola though obviously realizes the revenue that the Wi4 portfolio is
generating (i.e. wireless broadband gear) and has increased spending on the
product line.  They have done some semi-big changes in the channel to
increase sales... its obvious they are committed to the product... even
though the total revenue might be a decimal point on the big Motorola
balance sheet...

Daniel White
3-dB Networks

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 12:05 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 Sorry but this comment makes me laugh that you can throw out a number like
 this when the wise people that do statistics can't even come to a true
 conclusion how many wisps and other unlicensed operators there are out
 there. To state these numbers as well with as many privately owned
 manufacturers and distributors there are out there selling unlicensed
 equipment I personally wouldn't dare throw out numbers like that so
 casually like it was THE truth.
 
 Sure Canopy got a great product and have a big market space. But in the
 big scope on the Moto radar Canopy is a very small market and Moto got
 their status downgraded to junk by SP this week. If they really start
 hurting I do not doubt seeing them hesitate for 2second to scrap or sell
 their Canopy line.
 /Eje
 Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:25:37
 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 
 Digis was 100% Canopy.  I think they had about 15,000 at the time of the
 purchase.
 We have 5000+ all Canopy.
 Mot has more than 50% of the US market.  So the other 50% is made up of
 Trango, Tranzeo, MT etc etc etc.
 
 - Original Message -
 From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 
  That's probably slightly aggressive Chuck... but at the scale they are
 at
  your not that far off...
 
  Its even a more interesting picture if you look at the WISP's they
  bought...
  Three more large WISP's by my definition, all Canopy shops... are part
 of
  them.  Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband.  All Canopy shops (granted Mesa
 had
  some legacy Tranzeo in there, LP had a lot of Matt Larsen's last WISP's
  Tranzeo gear still running, I don't know anything really about Digis's
  part
  of the network).
 
  Heck Chuck... your above 5,000 wireless subs aren't you?
 
  Daniel White
  3-dB Networks
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3
  Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:11 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
  JAB?  They probably have 50,000 subs by now.  Canopy shop.
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 
   Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.
  
   But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics
   that
   back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large
   provider
   market.
  
   What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest
 Urban
   WISPs. They use Aperto.
   What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one
 two
   occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot
   of
   Alvarion later on.
   What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of
   Trango
   at one point.
   What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
   What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he
  was
   mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
   What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
   primarilly a Canopy shop.
  
   Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to
 evolve
  in
   compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and
   beyond.
   But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.
  
   You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays,
 most
   all
   of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of
 the
   largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs
   to
   now
   buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting
   that
   Alvarion and Trango still hold

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-06 Thread Chuck McCown - 3
There are companies that make it their business to sell market data.  If it 
was not accurate they would not still be in business.
Heck, I can probably sample 80% of all WISPs in the US in one week with two 
people and two phones.  WISPS are not hesitant to talk about their 
technology and you can look at websites and guess at coverage maps and 
sizes.  Moreover, I get calls on a regular basis my market research firms 
wanting to know details.  I share.  They give an NDA, I give data.  You can 
go by FCC data too (assuming everyone is reporting like they are supposed to 
do).

I have a large rolodex for AF that would be a good basis for a sample if I 
decided to do one.  I think I can independently verify the market data if 
there was some reason for me to do so.

But when Mot makes semi-public pronouncements of having over 50% of the 
market in this sarbanes-oxley environment, you can laugh all you want but to 
dismiss is folly.

BTW, Canopy is large enough to actually move the stock price of Mot.  Canopy 
revenue is supporting many of the folks in the handset division.
You can wish they will sell or scrap all you want, but I doubt you will get 
your wish this xmas.

- Original Message - 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 12:04 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


 Sorry but this comment makes me laugh that you can throw out a number like 
 this when the wise people that do statistics can't even come to a true 
 conclusion how many wisps and other unlicensed operators there are out 
 there. To state these numbers as well with as many privately owned 
 manufacturers and distributors there are out there selling unlicensed 
 equipment I personally wouldn't dare throw out numbers like that so 
 casually like it was THE truth.

 Sure Canopy got a great product and have a big market space. But in the 
 big scope on the Moto radar Canopy is a very small market and Moto got 
 their status downgraded to junk by SP this week. If they really start 
 hurting I do not doubt seeing them hesitate for 2second to scrap or sell 
 their Canopy line.
 /Eje
 Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:25:37
 To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


 Digis was 100% Canopy.  I think they had about 15,000 at the time of the
 purchase.
 We have 5000+ all Canopy.
 Mot has more than 50% of the US market.  So the other 50% is made up of
 Trango, Tranzeo, MT etc etc etc.

 - Original Message - 
 From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


 That's probably slightly aggressive Chuck... but at the scale they are at
 your not that far off...

 Its even a more interesting picture if you look at the WISP's they
 bought...
 Three more large WISP's by my definition, all Canopy shops... are part of
 them.  Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband.  All Canopy shops (granted Mesa had
 some legacy Tranzeo in there, LP had a lot of Matt Larsen's last WISP's
 Tranzeo gear still running, I don't know anything really about Digis's
 part
 of the network).

 Heck Chuck... your above 5,000 wireless subs aren't you?

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:11 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 JAB?  They probably have 50,000 subs by now.  Canopy shop.

 - Original Message -
 From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


  Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.
 
  But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics
  that
  back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large
  provider
  market.
 
  What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest 
  Urban
  WISPs. They use Aperto.
  What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one 
  two
  occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot
  of
  Alvarion later on.
  What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of
  Trango
  at one point.
  What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
  What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he
 was
  mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
  What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
  primarilly a Canopy shop.
 
  Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve
 in
  compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and
  beyond.
  But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.
 
  You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-06 Thread Travis Johnson




I thought I heard a few years ago that the Canopy division was actually
losing money? I would think that would be one of the first divisions to
get sold off if it's not as profitable as the others.

Travis
Microserv

3-dB Networks wrote:

  Eje,

I know you don't work closely with Motorola... but I interact with an
employee over there at least once a week... often times more.

The handset division is killing Motorola, this is public knowledge.  Until
the split occurs and they sell off the division (which they have also made
that intention public) I don't see Motorola as a whole looking good as a
company.

Motorola though obviously realizes the revenue that the Wi4 portfolio is
generating (i.e. wireless broadband gear) and has increased spending on the
product line.  They have done some semi-big changes in the channel to
increase sales... its obvious they are committed to the product... even
though the total revenue might be a decimal point on the big Motorola
balance sheet...

Daniel White
3-dB Networks

  
  
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2008 12:05 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

Sorry but this comment makes me laugh that you can throw out a number like
this when the "wise" people that do statistics can't even come to a true
conclusion how many wisps and other unlicensed operators there are out
there. To state these numbers as well with as many privately owned
manufacturers and distributors there are out there selling unlicensed
equipment I personally wouldn't dare throw out numbers like that so
casually like it was THE truth.

Sure Canopy got a great product and have a big market space. But in the
big scope on the Moto radar Canopy is a very small market and Moto got
their status downgraded to junk by SP this week. If they really start
hurting I do not doubt seeing them hesitate for 2second to scrap or sell
their Canopy line.
/Eje
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-Original Message-
From: "Chuck McCown - 3" [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:25:37
To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


Digis was 100% Canopy.  I think they had about 15,000 at the time of the
purchase.
We have 5000+ all Canopy.
Mot has more than 50% of the US market.  So the other 50% is made up of
Trango, Tranzeo, MT etc etc etc.

- Original Message -
From: "3-dB Networks" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "'WISPA General List'" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds




  That's probably slightly aggressive Chuck... but at the scale they are
  

at


  your not that far off...

Its even a more interesting picture if you look at the WISP's they
bought...
Three more large WISP's by my definition, all Canopy shops... are part
  

of


  them.  Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband.  All Canopy shops (granted Mesa
  

had


  some legacy Tranzeo in there, LP had a lot of Matt Larsen's last WISP's
Tranzeo gear still running, I don't know anything really about Digis's
part
of the network).

Heck Chuck... your above 5,000 wireless subs aren't you?

Daniel White
3-dB Networks

  
  
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:11 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

JAB?  They probably have 50,000 subs by now.  Canopy shop.

- Original Message -
From: "Tom DeReggi" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds




  Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.

But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics
that
back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large
provider
market.

What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest
  

  

Urban


  

  WISPs. They use Aperto.
What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one
  

  

two


  

  occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot
of
Alvarion later on.
What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of
Trango
at one point.
What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he
  

was


  mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
primarilly a Canopy shop.

Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that 

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-06 Thread Matt Larsen - Lists
I know of quite a few non Canopy networks.   Among my consulting 
clients, neighbors and other associates, I know of

Rapid Communications - 2000+  StarOS/Tranzeo
R-Com - 4000+ StarOS/Tranzeo/Trango/Deliberant
Action Communications - 4000+  Cisco (they have a little bit of Canopy)
OIBW - 2500+ StarOS
MVN - 2000+ StarOS

There are a lot of other providers out there with similarly large 
networks on Mikrotik or StarOS.In more rural areas, these systems 
will far outperform Canopy in price/performance and  coverage area - 
mostly due to antenna and polarity flexibility.   I've been building in 
some more population dense areas with StarOS and 10mhz channels in 2.4 
and 5ghz, with NS5 radios as CPE and that has gone extremely well so 
far.   Having an $89 CPE that will go up to 16meg with 5/10/20mhz 
channels, software controllable polarity and an external antenna 
connector is pretty impressive as far as I'm concerned.

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com



3-dB Networks wrote:
 Comments inline...

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks

   
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:17 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.

 But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that
 back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider
 market.

 What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban
 WISPs. They use Aperto.
 What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two
 occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of
 Alvarion later on.
 What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of
 Trango
 at one point.
 What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
 What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was
 mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
 What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
 primarilly a Canopy shop.

 

 With the exception of Matt Larsens operation (although I knew his last one
 much better :-), I really have no extensive knowledge of any of these
 networks, so I really can't argue about them.  What I can point out though,
 is I can think of that many Canopy WISP's that are that large.  So while
 Canopy might not dominate the market, it very well could (underline
 underline italics) have the largest market share.  Obviously I have no data
 to back that up, its my personal observation from my perch out here in
 Colorado...

   
 Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in
 compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond.
 But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.

 

 I don't think I meant to come off as they owned the market, but they are a
 big player.  I don't even know what would happen if we added in the
 international market...

   
 You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most
 all
 of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the
 largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to
 now
 buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that
 Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay.
 

 Can't argue with that.  Earthlink really screwed up that part of the
 market... although I would say the gear is still at a reasonable price all
 things considered.

   
 I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap
 frog
 game.  Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently,
 because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application
 on
 this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may
 bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are new
 products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets.

 
 No argument here from me.  We actually resell Aperto 3.65 because we see how
 strong of a play they have there where Motorola has no presence.  But AKAIK
 there has been no 5,000 sub 3.65 deployments (heck I would doubt there has
 even been any 1,000 sub deployments yet) so its hard to say where the band
 will end up.  Motorola will have a strong position in the TVWS spectrum
 (which I personally believe could redefine the WISP industry), and Motorola
 does dominate the 2.5GHz WiMax band (at least from the last report on I saw
 on Broadband reports).

   
 And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a
 croc.  If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later,
 my
 Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed.

 
 That wasn't my argument.  The WISP in question is now owned by JAB, who has
 standardized on Canopy.  They also deployed a lot of 5.2GHz, which is now as
 far as I know no longer available

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread 3-dB Networks
I guess we need to define large... :-)

You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say 1000
customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say 2006
on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now they
are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.

I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark.  I for
one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they all
use Canopy...

Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very wrong
:-)  I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I apologize!)

Daniel White
3-dB Networks

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
  the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason
 
 Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use
 Canopy..  But that comment is in no way true.
 
 I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion,
 StarOS, etc.
 
 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
 - Original Message -
 From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 
  Steve,
 
  I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our company
 we
  are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our
  success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP.  He wrote an article
 here
  about leasing that might change your mind.  http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx
 
  Basically look at it this way.  If you lease your equipment, it allows
 you
  to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your
  revenue.  You end up paying more in the long run because of the
 interest,
  but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your
 vendor
  instead of individual or 5 packs.  Todd probably explains it better in
 the
  article.
 
  Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another WISP
  can
  replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is equipment
  related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an
 802.11a/b/g
  solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were on
  KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really fast.  We
  had
  many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been successful
  without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an AP.  Our
  WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we hit
 the
  limitations of the KarlNet system.  My experiences with a Tranzeo
 network
  in
  2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that much
 (its
  all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to it).
 So
  while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network and start
  over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason.
 
  My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents isn't worth
  much anymore)
 
  Daniel White
  3-dB Networks
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Steve Barnes
  Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:53 AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
  I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that
  the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install.  You
  still have to pay for it.  It may make cash flow easier but the ROI
  takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co.
  Can you help me with that one.
 
 
 
  Steve
 
 
 
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Travis Johnson
  Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 
 
  Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the
 install
  fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on
  every new customer.
 
  Travis
  Microserv
 
  Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
 
  You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000
  subscribers
  things will be a bit better.
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  mailto:wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
  Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 
 
 
  I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth
  different
  WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended
  equipment
  that is so often discussed on this list.
 
 
 
  I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch
  each
  penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to
  service the
  clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread Mike Hammett
Indeed leasing is hard to get.  I haven't tried recently and maybe I will 
this spring, but it was easier for me to get a revolving line of credit at 
my bank (and later a non-revolving line of credit) from my bank than to get 
a lease on anything.

Some lessors will only work with certain brands of equipment, while others 
will let you purchase anything (Mikrotik parts).


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 12:46 AM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 I don't question the value of Leasing for a second. I just think that it 
 is
 to hard to get Leasing.
 WISPs should not be considered any more HIGH risk than any other business.
 In today's economy WISPs are doing better than many other industries, and
 the demand is still growing daily.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message - 
 From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:36 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


 Hi,

 Yes, you still have to pay for it... but instead of being upside down
 with the customer for the first 3-6 months (depending on equipment), you
 begin making money on that customer from day 1. So you no longer worry
 about do I have enough money to buy the equipment to install that
 customer and instead can focus on get as many customers installed as
 quickly as possible.

 Also, by buying 250 units at a time, you get a much better price on the
 equipment... which sometimes can even out the extra you pay by financing.

 Travis
 Microserv

 Steve Barnes wrote:
 I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that
 the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install.  You
 still have to pay for it.  It may make cash flow easier but the ROI
 takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co.
 Can you help me with that one.



 Steve



 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Travis Johnson
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds



 Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install
 fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on
 every new customer.

 Travis
 Microserv

 Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:

 You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000
 subscribers
 things will be a bit better.

 - Original Message - 
 From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 mailto:wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
 Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds




 I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth
 different
 WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended
 equipment
 that is so often discussed on this list.



 I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch
 each
 penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to
 service the
 clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other
 that
 what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8
 towers with
 320 clients.



 The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a
 $59.99 Pro
 Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn
 off the
 speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M
 on any
 of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS
 Full
 Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost
 of with
 another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to
 achieve
 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.



 Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.
 What do
 you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.



 Please don't start with the statement, How you should have
 started you
 service.  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have
 and I
 know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in
 the same
 boat.



 So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND
 definition
 without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is
 everyone
 charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing
 is not
 readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.
 No
 Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
 Verizon.



 Steve Barnes

 RC-WiFi.com




 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread Travis Johnson




Hey buddy I'm out here in NoWhere, Idaho and we have over 5,000
wireless subs and I am proud to say NO CANOPY radios. :)

And, just to give you an idea that we do know what we are doing, we
have three OC3's worth of bandwidth (465Mbps) coming into our NOC. We
offer wireless, DSL, fiber, T1 and dial-up.

Travis
Microserv

3-dB Networks wrote:

  I guess we need to define large... :-)

You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say 1000
customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say 2006
on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now they
are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.

I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark.  I for
one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they all
use Canopy...

Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very wrong
:-)  I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I apologize!)

Daniel White
3-dB Networks

  
  
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds



  the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason
  

Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use
Canopy..  But that comment is in no way true.

I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion,
StarOS, etc.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: "3-dB Networks" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "'WISPA General List'" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds




  Steve,

I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our company
  

we


  are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our
success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP.  He wrote an article
  

here


  about leasing that might change your mind.  http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx

Basically look at it this way.  If you lease your equipment, it allows
  

you


  to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your
revenue.  You end up paying more in the long run because of the
  

interest,


  but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your
  

vendor


  instead of individual or 5 packs.  Todd probably explains it better in
  

the


  article.

Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another WISP
can
replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is equipment
related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an
  

802.11a/b/g


  solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were on
KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really fast.  We
had
many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been successful
without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an AP.  Our
WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we hit
  

the


  limitations of the KarlNet system.  My experiences with a Tranzeo
  

network


  in
2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that much
  

(its


  all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to it).
  

So


  while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network and start
over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason.

My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents isn't worth
much anymore)

Daniel White
3-dB Networks

  
  
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Steve Barnes
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:53 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that
the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install.  You
still have to pay for it.  It may make cash flow easier but the ROI
takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co.
Can you help me with that one.



Steve



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds



Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the

  

install


  
fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside down" on
every new customer.

Travis
Microserv

Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:

You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000
su

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread Josh Luthman
But between 1 and 1000 subs what were your bandwidth packages and what was
your competition?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 10:20 AM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Hey buddy I'm out here in NoWhere, Idaho and we have over 5,000
 wireless subs and I am proud to say NO CANOPY radios. :)

 And, just to give you an idea that we do know what we are doing, we have
 three OC3's worth of bandwidth (465Mbps) coming into our NOC. We offer
 wireless, DSL, fiber, T1 and dial-up.

 Travis
 Microserv


 3-dB Networks wrote:

 I guess we need to define large... :-)

 You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say 1000
 customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say 2006
 on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now they
 are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.

 I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark.  I for
 one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they all
 use Canopy...

 Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very wrong
 :-)  I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I apologize!)

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks



  -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
 Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds



  the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason


  Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use
 Canopy..  But that comment is in no way true.

 I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion,
 StarOS, etc.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds




  Steve,

 I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our company


  we


  are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our
 success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP.  He wrote an article


  here


  about leasing that might change your mind.  http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx

 Basically look at it this way.  If you lease your equipment, it allows


  you


  to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your
 revenue.  You end up paying more in the long run because of the


  interest,


  but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your


  vendor


  instead of individual or 5 packs.  Todd probably explains it better in


  the


  article.

 Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another WISP
 can
 replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is equipment
 related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an


  802.11a/b/g


  solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were on
 KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really fast.  We
 had
 many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been successful
 without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an AP.  Our
 WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we hit


  the


  limitations of the KarlNet system.  My experiences with a Tranzeo


  network


  in
 2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that much


  (its


  all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to it).


  So


  while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network and start
 over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason.

 My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents isn't worth
 much anymore)

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks



  -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
 Behalf Of Steve Barnes
 Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:53 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that
 the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install.  You
 still have to pay for it.  It may make cash flow easier but the ROI
 takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co.
 Can you help me with that one.



 Steve



 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
 Behalf Of Travis Johnson
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds



 Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the


  install


  fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on
 every new customer

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread 3-dB Networks
Do you have 5,000 wireless subs Travis? :-)  

 

And I'm not saying you don't know what your doing. or even a WISP that has
300 customers doesn't know what they are doing (hey I just got on Charles
about saying a WISP that small was a hobby. although I understand the point
he is trying to make).  There are reasons that the big WISP's are generally
big, and I think half of that has to do with factors outside of their
control (population density, geography, DSL/Cable penetration, etc.).  Mesa
was very lucky to have many of those things working in our favor, but I
think we knew what we were doing to (well at least about half of the time!).

Daniel White
3-dB Networks

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:20 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 

Hey buddy I'm out here in NoWhere, Idaho and we have over 5,000 wireless
subs and I am proud to say NO CANOPY radios. :)

And, just to give you an idea that we do know what we are doing, we have
three OC3's worth of bandwidth (465Mbps) coming into our NOC. We offer
wireless, DSL, fiber, T1 and dial-up.

Travis
Microserv

3-dB Networks wrote: 

I guess we need to define large... :-)
 
You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say 1000
customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say 2006
on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now they
are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.
 
I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark.  I for
one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they all
use Canopy...
 
Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very wrong
:-)  I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I apologize!)
 
Daniel White
3-dB Networks
 
  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 


the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason
  

Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use
Canopy..  But that comment is in no way true.
 
I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion,
StarOS, etc.
 
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
- Original Message -
From: 3-dB Networks  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List'  mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 


Steve,
 
I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our company
  

we


are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our
success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP.  He wrote an article
  

here


about leasing that might change your mind.  http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx
 
Basically look at it this way.  If you lease your equipment, it allows
  

you


to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your
revenue.  You end up paying more in the long run because of the
  

interest,


but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your
  

vendor


instead of individual or 5 packs.  Todd probably explains it better in
  

the


article.
 
Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another WISP
can
replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is equipment
related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an
  

802.11a/b/g


solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were on
KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really fast.  We
had
many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been successful
without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an AP.  Our
WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we hit
  

the


limitations of the KarlNet system.  My experiences with a Tranzeo
  

network


in
2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that much
  

(its


all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to it).
  

So


while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network and start
over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason.
 
My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents isn't worth
much anymore)
 
Daniel White
3-dB Networks
 
  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steve Barnes
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:53 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that
the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install.  You
still have to pay for it.  It may make

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread Travis Johnson
Yes, we have over 5,000 wireless subs and no Canopy radios on our 
entire network. :)

Travis
Microserv

3-dB Networks wrote:
 Do you have 5,000 wireless subs Travis? :-)  

  

 And I'm not saying you don't know what your doing. or even a WISP that has
 300 customers doesn't know what they are doing (hey I just got on Charles
 about saying a WISP that small was a hobby. although I understand the point
 he is trying to make).  There are reasons that the big WISP's are generally
 big, and I think half of that has to do with factors outside of their
 control (population density, geography, DSL/Cable penetration, etc.).  Mesa
 was very lucky to have many of those things working in our favor, but I
 think we knew what we were doing to (well at least about half of the time!).

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks

   _  

 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Travis Johnson
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:20 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

  

 Hey buddy I'm out here in NoWhere, Idaho and we have over 5,000 wireless
 subs and I am proud to say NO CANOPY radios. :)

 And, just to give you an idea that we do know what we are doing, we have
 three OC3's worth of bandwidth (465Mbps) coming into our NOC. We offer
 wireless, DSL, fiber, T1 and dial-up.

 Travis
 Microserv

 3-dB Networks wrote: 

 I guess we need to define large... :-)
  
 You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say 1000
 customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say 2006
 on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now they
 are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.
  
 I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark.  I for
 one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they all
 use Canopy...
  
 Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very wrong
 :-)  I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I apologize!)
  
 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
  
   

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
  
 

 the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason
   

 Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use
 Canopy..  But that comment is in no way true.
  
 I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion,
 StarOS, etc.
  
 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
  
  
 - Original Message -
 From: 3-dB Networks  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'WISPA General List'  mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
  
  
 

 Steve,
  
 I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our company
   

 we
 

 are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our
 success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP.  He wrote an article
   

 here
 

 about leasing that might change your mind.  http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx
  
 Basically look at it this way.  If you lease your equipment, it allows
   

 you
 

 to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your
 revenue.  You end up paying more in the long run because of the
   

 interest,
 

 but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your
   

 vendor
 

 instead of individual or 5 packs.  Todd probably explains it better in
   

 the
 

 article.
  
 Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another WISP
 can
 replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is equipment
 related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an
   

 802.11a/b/g
 

 solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were on
 KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really fast.  We
 had
 many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been successful
 without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an AP.  Our
 WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we hit
   

 the
 

 limitations of the KarlNet system.  My experiences with a Tranzeo
   

 network
 

 in
 2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that much
   

 (its
 

 all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to it).
   

 So
 

 while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network and start
 over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason.
  
 My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents isn't worth
 much anymore)
  
 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
  
   

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Steve Barnes
 Sent

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread Travis Johnson




>From 1 to 1000 subs we were deploying Lucent 900mhz Wavelan cards in
PC's and running LMR-400 to an external antenna (1997). We then
switched to 2.4ghz Lucent using 3Com bridges with PCMCIA cards and
still running LMR-400. We were charging $500 for install. We had cable
and DSL for competition. We were charging $50/month for a 1Mbps service
(which was really more like 500kbps service).

Today, we are charging $99 installation and $29.95 for 512k, $39.95 for
1Mbps, $49.95 for 1.5Mbps, etc. We now have cable, DSL, 2.5ghz licensed
WiMax and two other Canopy WISP's in our area. We are still doing 100+
installs per month.

Travis
Microserv

Josh Luthman wrote:

  But between 1 and 1000 subs what were your bandwidth packages and what was
your competition?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 10:20 AM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
 Hey buddy I'm out here in NoWhere, Idaho and we have over 5,000
wireless subs and I am proud to say NO CANOPY radios. :)

And, just to give you an idea that we do know what we are doing, we have
three OC3's worth of bandwidth (465Mbps) coming into our NOC. We offer
wireless, DSL, fiber, T1 and dial-up.

Travis
Microserv


3-dB Networks wrote:

I guess we need to define large... :-)

You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say 1000
customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say 2006
on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now they
are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.

I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark.  I for
one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they all
use Canopy...

Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very wrong
:-)  I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I apologize!)

Daniel White
3-dB Networks



 -Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds



 the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason


 Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use
Canopy..  But that comment is in no way true.

I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion,
StarOS, etc.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: "3-dB Networks" [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "'WISPA General List'" wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds




 Steve,

I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our company


 we


 are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our
success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP.  He wrote an article


 here


 about leasing that might change your mind.  http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx

Basically look at it this way.  If you lease your equipment, it allows


 you


 to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your
revenue.  You end up paying more in the long run because of the


 interest,


 but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your


 vendor


 instead of individual or 5 packs.  Todd probably explains it better in


 the


 article.

Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another WISP
can
replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is equipment
related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an


 802.11a/b/g


 solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were on
KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really fast.  We
had
many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been successful
without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an AP.  Our
WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we hit


 the


 limitations of the KarlNet system.  My experiences with a Tranzeo


 network


 in
2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that much


 (its


 all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to it).


 So


 while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network and start
over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason.

My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents isn't worth
much anymore)

Daniel White
3-dB Networks



 -Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Steve Barnes
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:53 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that
the monthly

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread Gino Villarini
Travis, hoy many people do you staff ? 


Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 12:17 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

Yes, we have over 5,000 wireless subs and no Canopy radios on our
entire network. :)

Travis
Microserv

3-dB Networks wrote:
 Do you have 5,000 wireless subs Travis? :-)

  

 And I'm not saying you don't know what your doing. or even a WISP that

 has 300 customers doesn't know what they are doing (hey I just got on 
 Charles about saying a WISP that small was a hobby. although I 
 understand the point he is trying to make).  There are reasons that 
 the big WISP's are generally big, and I think half of that has to do 
 with factors outside of their control (population density, geography, 
 DSL/Cable penetration, etc.).  Mesa was very lucky to have many of 
 those things working in our favor, but I think we knew what we were
doing to (well at least about half of the time!).

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks

   _

 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 On Behalf Of Travis Johnson
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:20 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

  

 Hey buddy I'm out here in NoWhere, Idaho and we have over 5,000 
 wireless subs and I am proud to say NO CANOPY radios. :)

 And, just to give you an idea that we do know what we are doing, we 
 have three OC3's worth of bandwidth (465Mbps) coming into our NOC. We 
 offer wireless, DSL, fiber, T1 and dial-up.

 Travis
 Microserv

 3-dB Networks wrote: 

 I guess we need to define large... :-)
  
 You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say

 1000 customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational 
 in say 2006 on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but 
 Canopy... and now they are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.
  
 I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark.  I 
 for one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and 
 they all use Canopy...
  
 Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very 
 wrong
 :-)  I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I 
 apologize!)
  
 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
  
   

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
  
 

 the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason
   

 Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may 
 use Canopy..  But that comment is in no way true.
  
 I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion,

 StarOS, etc.
  
 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
  
  
 - Original Message -
 From: 3-dB Networks  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'WISPA General List'  mailto:wireless@wispa.org 
 wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
  
  
 

 Steve,
  
 I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our 
 company
   

 we
 

 are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our

 success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP.  He wrote an article
   

 here
 

 about leasing that might change your mind.  http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx
  
 Basically look at it this way.  If you lease your equipment, it allows
   

 you
 

 to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your 
 revenue.  You end up paying more in the long run because of the
   

 interest,
 

 but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your
   

 vendor
 

 instead of individual or 5 packs.  Todd probably explains it better in
   

 the
 

 article.
  
 Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another 
 WISP can replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is 
 equipment related... I know we couldn't have built our network using 
 an
   

 802.11a/b/g
 

 solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were on
 KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really fast.  
 We had many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been 
 successful without timing and the ability to place so many customers 
 on an AP.  Our WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) 
 because we hit
   

 the
 

 limitations of the KarlNet system.  My experiences with a Tranzeo
   

 network
 

 in
 2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that much
   

 (its
 

 all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to it).
   

 So

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread Matt
 From 1 to 1000 subs we were deploying Lucent 900mhz Wavelan cards in PC's
 and running LMR-400 to an external antenna (1997). We then switched to
 2.4ghz Lucent using 3Com bridges with PCMCIA cards and still running
 LMR-400. We were charging $500 for install. We had cable and DSL for
 competition. We were charging $50/month for a 1Mbps service (which was
 really more like 500kbps service).

 Today, we are charging $99 installation and $29.95 for 512k, $39.95 for
 1Mbps, $49.95 for 1.5Mbps, etc. We now have cable, DSL, 2.5ghz licensed
 WiMax and two other Canopy WISP's in our area. We are still doing 100+
 installs per month.

What gear are you using today?  Has the recent downturn in the economy
hurt you any?

We found that the Canopy gear scales better due to the GPS sync.  In
past with Trango and other gear we would fight self interference on
900 quite a bit.  With over 20 tower sites its hard to coordinate.
Apparently you have not had those problems.  Been 3 years since we
deployed anything but Canopy.

Matt



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread Travis Johnson




Hi,

We have 80+ tower sites. We have Trango deployed on all of them
(5.8ghz, 2.4ghz and 900mhz mixed) and Mikrotik deployed on about 65 of
them. So we still install Trango, but also install Mikrotik.

Yes, you do have to be very careful to not self interfere and to
coordinate everything, especially if you have to make any channel
changes (we have seen our 2.4ghz radios cause self-interference at 50
miles apart).

Travis
Microserv

Matt wrote:

  
From 1 to 1000 subs we were deploying Lucent 900mhz Wavelan cards in PC's
and running LMR-400 to an external antenna (1997). We then switched to
2.4ghz Lucent using 3Com bridges with PCMCIA cards and still running
LMR-400. We were charging $500 for install. We had cable and DSL for
competition. We were charging $50/month for a 1Mbps service (which was
really more like 500kbps service).

Today, we are charging $99 installation and $29.95 for 512k, $39.95 for
1Mbps, $49.95 for 1.5Mbps, etc. We now have cable, DSL, 2.5ghz licensed
WiMax and two other Canopy WISP's in our area. We are still doing 100+
installs per month.

  
  
What gear are you using today?  Has the recent downturn in the economy
hurt you any?

We found that the Canopy gear scales better due to the GPS sync.  In
past with Trango and other gear we would fight self interference on
900 quite a bit.  With over 20 tower sites its hard to coordinate.
Apparently you have not had those problems.  Been 3 years since we
deployed anything but Canopy.

Matt



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/


  






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http://signup.wispa.org/

 
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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread Travis Johnson




Hi,

We currently have 28 people:

3 owners (that handle management issues, employee hiring, accounting,
tower work, network design, server management, etc.)
6 wireless installers
1 wireless dispatcher (signal checks, CPE deployment, etc.)
1 wireless supervisor (2nd level support, etc)
7 admin people (billing, telephone calls, collections, etc.)
4 networking people (on-site billable)
1 network admin (server support, domain hosting support, Cisco VPN
support, etc.)
5 technical support (2.5 on staff at any given time)

Travis
Microserv

Gino Villarini wrote:

  Travis, hoy many people do you staff ? 


Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 12:17 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

Yes, we have over 5,000 wireless subs and no Canopy radios on our
entire network. :)

Travis
Microserv

3-dB Networks wrote:
  
  
Do you have 5,000 wireless subs Travis? :-)

 

And I'm not saying you don't know what your doing. or even a WISP that

  
  
  
  
has 300 customers doesn't know what they are doing (hey I just got on 
Charles about saying a WISP that small was a hobby. although I 
understand the point he is trying to make).  There are reasons that 
the big WISP's are generally big, and I think half of that has to do 
with factors outside of their control (population density, geography, 
DSL/Cable penetration, etc.).  Mesa was very lucky to have many of 
those things working in our favor, but I think we knew what we were

  
  doing to (well at least about half of the time!).
  
  
Daniel White
3-dB Networks

  _

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
On Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:20 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 

Hey buddy I'm out here in NoWhere, Idaho and we have over 5,000 
wireless subs and I am proud to say NO CANOPY radios. :)

And, just to give you an idea that we do know what we are doing, we 
have three OC3's worth of bandwidth (465Mbps) coming into our NOC. We 
offer wireless, DSL, fiber, T1 and dial-up.

Travis
Microserv

3-dB Networks wrote: 

I guess we need to define large... :-)
 
You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say

  
  
  
  
1000 customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational 
in say 2006 on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but 
Canopy... and now they are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.
 
I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark.  I 
for one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and 
they all use Canopy...
 
Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very 
wrong
:-)  I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I 
apologize!)
 
Daniel White
3-dB Networks
 
  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 


the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason
  

Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may 
use Canopy..  But that comment is in no way true.
 
I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion,

  
  
  
  
StarOS, etc.
 
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
- Original Message -
From: "3-dB Networks"  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "'WISPA General List'"  mailto:wireless@wispa.org 
wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 


Steve,
 
I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our 
company
  

we


are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our

  
  
  
  
success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP.  He wrote an article
  

here


about leasing that might change your mind.  http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx
 
Basically look at it this way.  If you lease your equipment, it allows
  

you


to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your 
revenue.  You end up paying more in the long run because of the
  

interest,


but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your
  

vendor


instead of individual or 5 packs.  Todd probably explains it better in
  

the


article.
 
Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another 
WISP can replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is 
equipment related... I know we couldn't have built our network using 
an
  

802.11a/b/g


solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were on
Karl

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread 3-dB Networks
Comments inline...

Daniel White
3-dB Networks

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:17 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.
 
 But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that
 back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider
 market.
 
 What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban
 WISPs. They use Aperto.
 What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two
 occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of
 Alvarion later on.
 What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of
 Trango
 at one point.
 What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
 What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was
 mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
 What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
 primarilly a Canopy shop.
 

With the exception of Matt Larsens operation (although I knew his last one
much better :-), I really have no extensive knowledge of any of these
networks, so I really can't argue about them.  What I can point out though,
is I can think of that many Canopy WISP's that are that large.  So while
Canopy might not dominate the market, it very well could (underline
underline italics) have the largest market share.  Obviously I have no data
to back that up, its my personal observation from my perch out here in
Colorado...

 Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in
 compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond.
 But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.


I don't think I meant to come off as they owned the market, but they are a
big player.  I don't even know what would happen if we added in the
international market...

 You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most
 all
 of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the
 largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to
 now
 buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that
 Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay.

Can't argue with that.  Earthlink really screwed up that part of the
market... although I would say the gear is still at a reasonable price all
things considered.

 I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap
 frog
 game.  Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently,
 because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application
 on
 this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may
 bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are new
 products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets.
 
No argument here from me.  We actually resell Aperto 3.65 because we see how
strong of a play they have there where Motorola has no presence.  But AKAIK
there has been no 5,000 sub 3.65 deployments (heck I would doubt there has
even been any 1,000 sub deployments yet) so its hard to say where the band
will end up.  Motorola will have a strong position in the TVWS spectrum
(which I personally believe could redefine the WISP industry), and Motorola
does dominate the 2.5GHz WiMax band (at least from the last report on I saw
on Broadband reports).

 And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a
 croc.  If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later,
 my
 Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed.

That wasn't my argument.  The WISP in question is now owned by JAB, who has
standardized on Canopy.  They also deployed a lot of 5.2GHz, which is now as
far as I know no longer available.  I think the decision was made for them
either way... it probably wasn't a choice.  But the fact remains, once they
switch to Canopy I don't think there will be one larger WISP in Colorado who
does not have Canopy in their network.

 I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had the
 reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could
 afford the best. 

Alvarion has that reputation for sure.  I have seen very little of their
gear deployed though (admittingly I wasn't in the industry during the
Breezemax days...)

 Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for
 small
 operators.  To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering leader,

I'd argue that point all day long... Trango/Canopy pricing is about dead
even every time I have seen a quote on Trango... and I don't think they have
been ahead of the Canopy product line in years...  your next statement backs
that up.

 and
 favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down the
 path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread Chuck McCown - 3
JAB?  They probably have 50,000 subs by now.  Canopy shop.

- Original Message - 
From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


 Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.

 But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that
 back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider
 market.

 What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban
 WISPs. They use Aperto.
 What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two
 occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of
 Alvarion later on.
 What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of 
 Trango
 at one point.
 What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
 What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was
 mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
 What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
 primarilly a Canopy shop.

 Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in
 compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond.
 But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.

 You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most 
 all
 of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the
 largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to 
 now
 buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that
 Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay.

 I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap 
 frog
 game.  Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently,
 because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application 
 on
 this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may
 bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are new
 products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets.

 And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a
 croc.  If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later, 
 my
 Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed.

 I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had the
 reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could
 afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for 
 small
 operators.  To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering leader, 
 and
 favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down the
 path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps 
 capacities,
 therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into 
 winning
 business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and 
 doesn't
 want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left that
 can do it at near the same price point.


 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message - 
 From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:16 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


I guess we need to define large... :-)

 You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say
 1000
 customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say
 2006
 on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now
 they
 are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.

 I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark.  I for
 one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they 
 all
 use Canopy...

 Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very 
 wrong
 :-)  I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I 
 apologize!)

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

  the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason

 Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use
 Canopy..  But that comment is in no way true.

 I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion,
 StarOS, etc.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


  Steve,
 
  I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our 
  company
 we
  are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our
  success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP.  He wrote

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread 3-dB Networks
That's probably slightly aggressive Chuck... but at the scale they are at
your not that far off...

Its even a more interesting picture if you look at the WISP's they bought...
Three more large WISP's by my definition, all Canopy shops... are part of
them.  Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband.  All Canopy shops (granted Mesa had
some legacy Tranzeo in there, LP had a lot of Matt Larsen's last WISP's
Tranzeo gear still running, I don't know anything really about Digis's part
of the network).

Heck Chuck... your above 5,000 wireless subs aren't you?  

Daniel White
3-dB Networks

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:11 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 JAB?  They probably have 50,000 subs by now.  Canopy shop.
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 
  Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.
 
  But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that
  back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider
  market.
 
  What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban
  WISPs. They use Aperto.
  What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two
  occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of
  Alvarion later on.
  What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of
  Trango
  at one point.
  What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
  What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he
 was
  mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
  What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
  primarilly a Canopy shop.
 
  Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve
 in
  compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond.
  But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.
 
  You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most
  all
  of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the
  largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to
  now
  buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that
  Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay.
 
  I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap
  frog
  game.  Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently,
  because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application
  on
  this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may
  bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are
 new
  products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets.
 
  And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a
  croc.  If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later,
  my
  Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed.
 
  I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had the
  reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could
  afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for
  small
  operators.  To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering leader,
  and
  favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down the
  path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps
  capacities,
  therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into
  winning
  business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and
  doesn't
  want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left
 that
  can do it at near the same price point.
 
 
  Tom DeReggi
  RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
  IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
  - Original Message -
  From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:16 AM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 
 I guess we need to define large... :-)
 
  You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say
  1000
  customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say
  2006
  on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now
  they
  are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.
 
  I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark.  I
 for
  one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they
  all
  use Canopy...
 
  Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very
  wrong
  :-)  I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I
  apologize!)
 
  Daniel White
  3-dB Networks
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread Tom DeReggi
Travis,

You left out sales.  Does that mean that you are at the point where you do them 
all by just taking orders? :-)


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


  - Original Message - 
  From: Travis Johnson 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 11:51 AM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


  Hi,

  We currently have 28 people:

  3 owners (that handle management issues, employee hiring, accounting, tower 
work, network design, server management, etc.)
  6 wireless installers
  1 wireless dispatcher (signal checks, CPE deployment, etc.)
  1 wireless supervisor (2nd level support, etc)
  7 admin people (billing, telephone calls, collections, etc.)
  4 networking people (on-site billable)
  1 network admin (server support, domain hosting support, Cisco VPN support, 
etc.)
  5 technical support (2.5 on staff at any given time)

  Travis
  Microserv

  Gino Villarini wrote: 
Travis, hoy many people do you staff ? 


Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 12:17 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

Yes, we have over 5,000 wireless subs and no Canopy radios on our
entire network. :)

Travis
Microserv

3-dB Networks wrote:
  Do you have 5,000 wireless subs Travis? :-)

 

And I'm not saying you don't know what your doing. or even a WISP that

  has 300 customers doesn't know what they are doing (hey I just got on 
Charles about saying a WISP that small was a hobby. although I 
understand the point he is trying to make).  There are reasons that 
the big WISP's are generally big, and I think half of that has to do 
with factors outside of their control (population density, geography, 
DSL/Cable penetration, etc.).  Mesa was very lucky to have many of 
those things working in our favor, but I think we knew what we were
doing to (well at least about half of the time!).
  Daniel White
3-dB Networks

  _

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:20 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 

Hey buddy I'm out here in NoWhere, Idaho and we have over 5,000 
wireless subs and I am proud to say NO CANOPY radios. :)

And, just to give you an idea that we do know what we are doing, we 
have three OC3's worth of bandwidth (465Mbps) coming into our NOC. We 
offer wireless, DSL, fiber, T1 and dial-up.

Travis
Microserv

3-dB Networks wrote: 

I guess we need to define large... :-)
 
You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say

  1000 customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational 
in say 2006 on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but 
Canopy... and now they are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.
 
I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark.  I 
for one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and 
they all use Canopy...
 
Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very 
wrong
:-)  I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I 
apologize!)
 
Daniel White
3-dB Networks
 
  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 


the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason
  

Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may 
use Canopy..  But that comment is in no way true.
 
I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion,

  StarOS, etc.
 
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
- Original Message -
From: 3-dB Networks  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List'  mailto:wireless@wispa.org 
wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 


Steve,
 
I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our 
company
  

we


are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our

  success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP.  He wrote an article
  

here


about leasing that might change your mind.  http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx
 
Basically look at it this way.  If you lease your equipment, it allows
  

you


to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your 
revenue.  You end up paying more in the long run because of the
  

interest,


but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your
  

vendor


instead of individual or 5 packs.  Todd probably explains it better in
  

the


article.
 
Other than this, I've been racking my brains

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread Chuck McCown - 3
Digis was 100% Canopy.  I think they had about 15,000 at the time of the 
purchase.
We have 5000+ all Canopy.
Mot has more than 50% of the US market.  So the other 50% is made up of 
Trango, Tranzeo, MT etc etc etc.

- Original Message - 
From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


 That's probably slightly aggressive Chuck... but at the scale they are at
 your not that far off...

 Its even a more interesting picture if you look at the WISP's they 
 bought...
 Three more large WISP's by my definition, all Canopy shops... are part of
 them.  Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband.  All Canopy shops (granted Mesa had
 some legacy Tranzeo in there, LP had a lot of Matt Larsen's last WISP's
 Tranzeo gear still running, I don't know anything really about Digis's 
 part
 of the network).

 Heck Chuck... your above 5,000 wireless subs aren't you?

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:11 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 JAB?  They probably have 50,000 subs by now.  Canopy shop.

 - Original Message -
 From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


  Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.
 
  But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics 
  that
  back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large 
  provider
  market.
 
  What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban
  WISPs. They use Aperto.
  What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two
  occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot 
  of
  Alvarion later on.
  What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of
  Trango
  at one point.
  What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
  What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he
 was
  mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
  What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
  primarilly a Canopy shop.
 
  Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve
 in
  compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and 
  beyond.
  But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.
 
  You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most
  all
  of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the
  largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs 
  to
  now
  buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting 
  that
  Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay.
 
  I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap
  frog
  game.  Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently,
  because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific 
  application
  on
  this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well 
  may
  bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are
 new
  products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 
  markets.
 
  And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a
  croc.  If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years 
  later,
  my
  Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed.
 
  I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had 
  the
  reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could
  afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for
  small
  operators.  To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering 
  leader,
  and
  favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down 
  the
  path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps
  capacities,
  therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into
  winning
  business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and
  doesn't
  want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left
 that
  can do it at near the same price point.
 
 
  Tom DeReggi
  RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
  IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
  - Original Message -
  From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:16 AM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 
 I guess we need to define large... :-)
 
  You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say
  1000
  customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say
  2006
  on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and 
  now
  they
  are swapping out their Trango gear anyways

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread Tom DeReggi
I also think, recognizing the past accurately, is not the same thing as 
predicting the future.

The future holds some very exciting possibilities.

The value proposition of Canopy 430 series last mile combined with Trango 
Apex distribution and NLOS TVWS where applicable, is a very exciting value 
proposition to take WISPs to the next level.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


 Comments inline...

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:17 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.

 But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that
 back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider
 market.

 What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban
 WISPs. They use Aperto.
 What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two
 occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of
 Alvarion later on.
 What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of
 Trango
 at one point.
 What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
 What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was
 mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
 What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
 primarilly a Canopy shop.


 With the exception of Matt Larsens operation (although I knew his last one
 much better :-), I really have no extensive knowledge of any of these
 networks, so I really can't argue about them.  What I can point out 
 though,
 is I can think of that many Canopy WISP's that are that large.  So while
 Canopy might not dominate the market, it very well could (underline
 underline italics) have the largest market share.  Obviously I have no 
 data
 to back that up, its my personal observation from my perch out here in
 Colorado...

 Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in
 compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond.
 But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.


 I don't think I meant to come off as they owned the market, but they are a
 big player.  I don't even know what would happen if we added in the
 international market...

 You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most
 all
 of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the
 largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to
 now
 buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that
 Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay.

 Can't argue with that.  Earthlink really screwed up that part of the
 market... although I would say the gear is still at a reasonable price all
 things considered.

 I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap
 frog
 game.  Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently,
 because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application
 on
 this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may
 bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are new
 products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets.

 No argument here from me.  We actually resell Aperto 3.65 because we see 
 how
 strong of a play they have there where Motorola has no presence.  But 
 AKAIK
 there has been no 5,000 sub 3.65 deployments (heck I would doubt there has
 even been any 1,000 sub deployments yet) so its hard to say where the band
 will end up.  Motorola will have a strong position in the TVWS spectrum
 (which I personally believe could redefine the WISP industry), and 
 Motorola
 does dominate the 2.5GHz WiMax band (at least from the last report on I 
 saw
 on Broadband reports).

 And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a
 croc.  If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later,
 my
 Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed.

 That wasn't my argument.  The WISP in question is now owned by JAB, who 
 has
 standardized on Canopy.  They also deployed a lot of 5.2GHz, which is now 
 as
 far as I know no longer available.  I think the decision was made for them
 either way... it probably wasn't a choice.  But the fact remains, once 
 they
 switch to Canopy I don't think there will be one larger WISP in Colorado 
 who
 does not have Canopy in their network.

 I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had the
 reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could
 afford the best

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread Tom DeReggi
 Mot has more than 50% of the US market

Is that based on amount of gear sold, or amount of gear still deployed?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


 Digis was 100% Canopy.  I think they had about 15,000 at the time of the
 purchase.
 We have 5000+ all Canopy.
 Mot has more than 50% of the US market.  So the other 50% is made up of
 Trango, Tranzeo, MT etc etc etc.

 - Original Message - 
 From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


 That's probably slightly aggressive Chuck... but at the scale they are at
 your not that far off...

 Its even a more interesting picture if you look at the WISP's they
 bought...
 Three more large WISP's by my definition, all Canopy shops... are part of
 them.  Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband.  All Canopy shops (granted Mesa had
 some legacy Tranzeo in there, LP had a lot of Matt Larsen's last WISP's
 Tranzeo gear still running, I don't know anything really about Digis's
 part
 of the network).

 Heck Chuck... your above 5,000 wireless subs aren't you?

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:11 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 JAB?  They probably have 50,000 subs by now.  Canopy shop.

 - Original Message -
 From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


  Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.
 
  But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics
  that
  back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large
  provider
  market.
 
  What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest 
  Urban
  WISPs. They use Aperto.
  What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one 
  two
  occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot
  of
  Alvarion later on.
  What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of
  Trango
  at one point.
  What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
  What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he
 was
  mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
  What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
  primarilly a Canopy shop.
 
  Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve
 in
  compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and
  beyond.
  But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.
 
  You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, 
  most
  all
  of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of 
  the
  largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs
  to
  now
  buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting
  that
  Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay.
 
  I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a 
  leap
  frog
  game.  Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently,
  because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific
  application
  on
  this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well
  may
  bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are
 new
  products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650
  markets.
 
  And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's 
  a
  croc.  If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years
  later,
  my
  Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed.
 
  I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had
  the
  reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could
  afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for
  small
  operators.  To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering
  leader,
  and
  favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down
  the
  path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps
  capacities,
  therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into
  winning
  business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and
  doesn't
  want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left
 that
  can do it at near the same price point.
 
 
  Tom DeReggi
  RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
  IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
  - Original Message -
  From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Friday, December 05

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread Chuck McCown - 3
Units sold.

- Original Message - 
From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


 Mot has more than 50% of the US market

 Is that based on amount of gear sold, or amount of gear still deployed?

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message - 
 From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:25 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


 Digis was 100% Canopy.  I think they had about 15,000 at the time of the
 purchase.
 We have 5000+ all Canopy.
 Mot has more than 50% of the US market.  So the other 50% is made up of
 Trango, Tranzeo, MT etc etc etc.

 - Original Message - 
 From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


 That's probably slightly aggressive Chuck... but at the scale they are 
 at
 your not that far off...

 Its even a more interesting picture if you look at the WISP's they
 bought...
 Three more large WISP's by my definition, all Canopy shops... are part 
 of
 them.  Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband.  All Canopy shops (granted Mesa 
 had
 some legacy Tranzeo in there, LP had a lot of Matt Larsen's last WISP's
 Tranzeo gear still running, I don't know anything really about Digis's
 part
 of the network).

 Heck Chuck... your above 5,000 wireless subs aren't you?

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:11 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 JAB?  They probably have 50,000 subs by now.  Canopy shop.

 - Original Message -
 From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


  Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.
 
  But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics
  that
  back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large
  provider
  market.
 
  What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest
  Urban
  WISPs. They use Aperto.
  What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one
  two
  occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot
  of
  Alvarion later on.
  What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of
  Trango
  at one point.
  What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
  What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he
 was
  mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
  What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
  primarilly a Canopy shop.
 
  Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to 
  evolve
 in
  compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and
  beyond.
  But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.
 
  You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays,
  most
  all
  of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of
  the
  largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs
  to
  now
  buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting
  that
  Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay.
 
  I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a
  leap
  frog
  game.  Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently,
  because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific
  application
  on
  this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well
  may
  bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are
 new
  products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650
  markets.
 
  And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's
  a
  croc.  If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years
  later,
  my
  Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed.
 
  I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had
  the
  reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that 
  could
  afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for
  small
  operators.  To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering
  leader,
  and
  favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down
  the
  path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps
  capacities,
  therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into
  winning
  business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and
  doesn't
  want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left
 that
  can do it at near the same price point.
 
 
  Tom DeReggi

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread 3-dB Networks
That's why I pointed out that three of the companies they rolled up were
large Canopy WISP's in of themselves.

If Digis was 15,000 Canopy Subscribers... than that makes probably 26,000 or
so of that amount representative from Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband that is
Canopy (Taking out about a 1,000 for the combined Tranzeo customers in the
network, although that number is probably pretty high).

Daniel White
3-dB Networks

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:34 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 OK, we'll give you JAB, as one of the largest WISPs that uses Canopy.
 
 However,  it should be noted there is a difference between a large wisp
 and
 a roll up.
 Sure if a Roll up just aquired a lot of WISPs, they are going to be a
 Large
 company of one product line.
 Its purely coincidental that it played out that way. Had there been a
 Alvarion or Trango roll up, they could easilly scale to same proportion.
 Its not necessarilly fair to compare a Roll up venture to original owner
 companies.
 
 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:11 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 
  JAB?  They probably have 50,000 subs by now.  Canopy shop.
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 
  Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.
 
  But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics
 that
  back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large
 provider
  market.
 
  What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban
  WISPs. They use Aperto.
  What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two
  occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot
 of
  Alvarion later on.
  What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of
  Trango
  at one point.
  What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
  What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he
 was
  mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
  What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
  primarilly a Canopy shop.
 
  Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve
 in
  compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and
 beyond.
  But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.
 
  You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most
  all
  of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the
  largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs
 to
  now
  buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting
 that
  Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay.
 
  I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap
  frog
  game.  Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently,
  because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific
 application
  on
  this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well
 may
  bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are
 new
  products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650
 markets.
 
  And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a
  croc.  If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years
 later,
  my
  Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed.
 
  I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had
 the
  reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could
  afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for
  small
  operators.  To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering
 leader,
  and
  favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down
 the
  path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps
  capacities,
  therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into
  winning
  business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and
  doesn't
  want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left
  that
  can do it at near the same price point.
 
 
  Tom DeReggi
  RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
  IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
  - Original Message -
  From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:16 AM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 
 I guess we need to define large... :-)
 
  You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say
  1000
  customers in the State

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread 3-dB Networks
I'd agree, except with the Trango Apex part... I don't think I need to
rehash my opinion there :-)

Daniel White
3-dB Networks

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:29 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 I also think, recognizing the past accurately, is not the same thing as
 predicting the future.
 
 The future holds some very exciting possibilities.
 
 The value proposition of Canopy 430 series last mile combined with Trango
 Apex distribution and NLOS TVWS where applicable, is a very exciting value
 proposition to take WISPs to the next level.
 
 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
 - Original Message -
 From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:46 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 
  Comments inline...
 
  Daniel White
  3-dB Networks
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
  Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:17 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
  Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.
 
  But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics
 that
  back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large
 provider
  market.
 
  What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban
  WISPs. They use Aperto.
  What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two
  occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot
 of
  Alvarion later on.
  What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of
  Trango
  at one point.
  What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
  What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he
 was
  mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
  What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
  primarilly a Canopy shop.
 
 
  With the exception of Matt Larsens operation (although I knew his last
 one
  much better :-), I really have no extensive knowledge of any of these
  networks, so I really can't argue about them.  What I can point out
  though,
  is I can think of that many Canopy WISP's that are that large.  So while
  Canopy might not dominate the market, it very well could (underline
  underline italics) have the largest market share.  Obviously I have no
  data
  to back that up, its my personal observation from my perch out here in
  Colorado...
 
  Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve
 in
  compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and
 beyond.
  But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.
 
 
  I don't think I meant to come off as they owned the market, but they are
 a
  big player.  I don't even know what would happen if we added in the
  international market...
 
  You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most
  all
  of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the
  largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs
 to
  now
  buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting
 that
  Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay.
 
  Can't argue with that.  Earthlink really screwed up that part of the
  market... although I would say the gear is still at a reasonable price
 all
  things considered.
 
  I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap
  frog
  game.  Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently,
  because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific
 application
  on
  this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well
 may
  bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are
 new
  products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650
 markets.
 
  No argument here from me.  We actually resell Aperto 3.65 because we see
  how
  strong of a play they have there where Motorola has no presence.  But
  AKAIK
  there has been no 5,000 sub 3.65 deployments (heck I would doubt there
 has
  even been any 1,000 sub deployments yet) so its hard to say where the
 band
  will end up.  Motorola will have a strong position in the TVWS spectrum
  (which I personally believe could redefine the WISP industry), and
  Motorola
  does dominate the 2.5GHz WiMax band (at least from the last report on I
  saw
  on Broadband reports).
 
  And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a
  croc.  If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years
 later,
  my
  Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed.
 
  That wasn't my argument.  The WISP in question is now owned by JAB, who
  has
  standardized on Canopy.  They also deployed a lot of 5.2GHz, which

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread Mike Hammett
Judging by their web site, JAB has no more than 6 customers.




Yes, that's a jab (pun intended) at their web site.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:34 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 OK, we'll give you JAB, as one of the largest WISPs that uses Canopy.

 However,  it should be noted there is a difference between a large wisp 
 and
 a roll up.
 Sure if a Roll up just aquired a lot of WISPs, they are going to be a 
 Large
 company of one product line.
 Its purely coincidental that it played out that way. Had there been a
 Alvarion or Trango roll up, they could easilly scale to same proportion.
 Its not necessarilly fair to compare a Roll up venture to original owner
 companies.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message - 
 From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:11 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


 JAB?  They probably have 50,000 subs by now.  Canopy shop.

 - Original Message - 
 From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


 Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.

 But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that
 back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider
 market.

 What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban
 WISPs. They use Aperto.
 What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two
 occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of
 Alvarion later on.
 What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of
 Trango
 at one point.
 What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
 What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he 
 was
 mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
 What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
 primarilly a Canopy shop.

 Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve 
 in
 compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond.
 But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.

 You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most
 all
 of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the
 largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to
 now
 buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that
 Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay.

 I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap
 frog
 game.  Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently,
 because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application
 on
 this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may
 bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are 
 new
 products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets.

 And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a
 croc.  If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later,
 my
 Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed.

 I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had the
 reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could
 afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for
 small
 operators.  To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering leader,
 and
 favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down the
 path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps
 capacities,
 therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into
 winning
 business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and
 doesn't
 want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left
 that
 can do it at near the same price point.


 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message - 
 From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:16 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


I guess we need to define large... :-)

 You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say
 1000
 customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say
 2006
 on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now
 they
 are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.

 I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark.  I
 for
 one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they
 all
 use

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread 3-dB Networks
Yeah they don't want the parent company to gain too much attention I
think...

With that said the Skybeam website (the Colorado operation...) is pretty bad
too

Daniel White
3-dB Networks

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Mike Hammett
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:56 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 Judging by their web site, JAB has no more than 6 customers.
 
 
 
 
 Yes, that's a jab (pun intended) at their web site.
 
 
 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
 --
 From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:34 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
  OK, we'll give you JAB, as one of the largest WISPs that uses Canopy.
 
  However,  it should be noted there is a difference between a large wisp
  and
  a roll up.
  Sure if a Roll up just aquired a lot of WISPs, they are going to be a
  Large
  company of one product line.
  Its purely coincidental that it played out that way. Had there been a
  Alvarion or Trango roll up, they could easilly scale to same proportion.
  Its not necessarilly fair to compare a Roll up venture to original owner
  companies.
 
  Tom DeReggi
  RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
  IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:11 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 
  JAB?  They probably have 50,000 subs by now.  Canopy shop.
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 
  Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.
 
  But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics
 that
  back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large
 provider
  market.
 
  What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest
 Urban
  WISPs. They use Aperto.
  What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one
 two
  occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot
 of
  Alvarion later on.
  What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of
  Trango
  at one point.
  What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
  What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he
  was
  mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
  What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
  primarilly a Canopy shop.
 
  Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve
  in
  compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and
 beyond.
  But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.
 
  You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays,
 most
  all
  of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of
 the
  largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs
 to
  now
  buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting
 that
  Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay.
 
  I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a
 leap
  frog
  game.  Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently,
  because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific
 application
  on
  this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well
 may
  bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are
  new
  products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650
 markets.
 
  And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's
 a
  croc.  If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years
 later,
  my
  Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed.
 
  I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had
 the
  reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could
  afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for
  small
  operators.  To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering
 leader,
  and
  favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down
 the
  path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps
  capacities,
  therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into
  winning
  business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and
  doesn't
  want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left
  that
  can do it at near the same price point.
 
 
  Tom DeReggi
  RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
  IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
  - Original Message -
  From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Friday

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread Travis Johnson




Not entirely... that's not a true statement. One of the WISP's they
purchased had a great deal of Trango installed. Granted, they may be
replacing it as they go, but I know for a fact they are not 100% Canopy.

Travis
Microserv

Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:

  JAB?  They probably have 50,000 subs by now.  Canopy shop.

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom DeReggi" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


  
  
Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.

But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that
back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider
market.

What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban
WISPs. They use Aperto.
What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two
occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of
Alvarion later on.
What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of 
Trango
at one point.
What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was
mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
primarilly a Canopy shop.

Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in
compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond.
But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.

You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most 
all
of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the
largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to 
now
buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that
Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay.

I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap 
frog
game.  Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently,
because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application 
on
this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may
bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are new
products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets.

And the comment "are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.", that's a
croc.  If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later, 
my
Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed.

I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had the
reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could
afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for 
"small
operators."  To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering leader, 
and
favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down the
path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps 
capacities,
therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into 
winning
business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and 
doesn't
want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left that
can do it at near the same price point.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "3-dB Networks" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "'WISPA General List'" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds




  I guess we need to define large... :-)

You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say
1000
customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say
2006
on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now
they
are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.

I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark.  I for
one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they 
all
use Canopy...

Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very 
wrong
:-)  I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I 
apologize!)

Daniel White
3-dB Networks

  
  
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds



  the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason
  

Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use
Canopy..  But that comment is in no way true.

I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion,
StarOS, etc.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: "3-dB Networks" [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread 3-dB Networks
I'll confirm that. that is the WISP I was talking about earlier (but as I
said I think the pressure for them is outside of their control to be fair)

Daniel White
3-dB Networks

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:18 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 

Not entirely... that's not a true statement. One of the WISP's they
purchased had a great deal of Trango installed. Granted, they may be
replacing it as they go, but I know for a fact they are not 100% Canopy.

Travis
Microserv

Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: 

JAB?  They probably have 50,000 subs by now.  Canopy shop.
 
- Original Message - 
From: Tom DeReggi  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List  mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 
  

Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.
 
But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics that
back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large provider
market.
 
What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban
WISPs. They use Aperto.
What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two
occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot of
Alvarion later on.
What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of 
Trango
at one point.
What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he was
mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
primarilly a Canopy shop.
 
Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve in
compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and beyond.
But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.
 
You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most 
all
of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the
largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs to 
now
buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting that
Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay.
 
I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap 
frog
game.  Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently,
because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific application 
on
this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well may
bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are new
products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 markets.
 
And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a
croc.  If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years later, 
my
Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed.
 
I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had the
reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could
afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for 
small
operators.  To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering leader, 
and
favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down the
path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20-30mbps 
capacities,
therefore leaving the door wide open for Canopy to work its way into 
winning
business from smaller market providers. If a WISP wants 20mbps, and 
doesn't
want to mess around with OEM style gear, its one of the solution left that
can do it at near the same price point.
 
 
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
- Original Message - 
From: 3-dB Networks  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List'  mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 


I guess we need to define large... :-)
 
You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say
1000
customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational in say
2006
on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but Canopy... and now
they
are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.
 
I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark.  I for
one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and they 
all
use Canopy...
 
Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very 
wrong
:-)  I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I 
apologize!)
 
Daniel White
3-dB Networks
 
  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 


the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread Travis Johnson
Yes we haven't had any sales people for 3+ years. We were never able 
to find one that could even pay for themselves after 6 months (meaning 
bring in enough new business to pay their salary).

So, we don't have any inside or outside sales people. If I could find 
one that was any good, I'm sure they could make a lot of money just 
selling to businesses in our markets. With the fiber ring we have around 
our main city, we can put businesses on a redundant fiber ring for $500 
total install cost to them and then whatever speed they want. It's a 
really easy sale, but again, sales people seem lacking in our area.

Travis
Microserv

Tom DeReggi wrote:
 Travis,

 You left out sales.  Does that mean that you are at the point where you do 
 them all by just taking orders? :-)


 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


   - Original Message - 
   From: Travis Johnson 
   To: WISPA General List 
   Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 11:51 AM
   Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


   Hi,

   We currently have 28 people:

   3 owners (that handle management issues, employee hiring, accounting, tower 
 work, network design, server management, etc.)
   6 wireless installers
   1 wireless dispatcher (signal checks, CPE deployment, etc.)
   1 wireless supervisor (2nd level support, etc)
   7 admin people (billing, telephone calls, collections, etc.)
   4 networking people (on-site billable)
   1 network admin (server support, domain hosting support, Cisco VPN support, 
 etc.)
   5 technical support (2.5 on staff at any given time)

   Travis
   Microserv

   Gino Villarini wrote: 
 Travis, hoy many people do you staff ? 


 Gino A. Villarini
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Travis Johnson
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 12:17 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 Yes, we have over 5,000 wireless subs and no Canopy radios on our
 entire network. :)

 Travis
 Microserv

 3-dB Networks wrote:
   Do you have 5,000 wireless subs Travis? :-)

  

 And I'm not saying you don't know what your doing. or even a WISP that
 
   has 300 customers doesn't know what they are doing (hey I just got on 
 Charles about saying a WISP that small was a hobby. although I 
 understand the point he is trying to make).  There are reasons that 
 the big WISP's are generally big, and I think half of that has to do 
 with factors outside of their control (population density, geography, 
 DSL/Cable penetration, etc.).  Mesa was very lucky to have many of 
 those things working in our favor, but I think we knew what we were
 doing to (well at least about half of the time!).
   Daniel White
 3-dB Networks

   _

 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 On Behalf Of Travis Johnson
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 8:20 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

  

 Hey buddy I'm out here in NoWhere, Idaho and we have over 5,000 
 wireless subs and I am proud to say NO CANOPY radios. :)

 And, just to give you an idea that we do know what we are doing, we 
 have three OC3's worth of bandwidth (465Mbps) coming into our NOC. We 
 offer wireless, DSL, fiber, T1 and dial-up.

 Travis
 Microserv

 3-dB Networks wrote: 

 I guess we need to define large... :-)
  
 You also need to look at the region I know best... for WISP's over say
 
   1000 customers in the State of Colorado... only one WISP operational 
 in say 2006 on had over 1000 customers and was using anything but 
 Canopy... and now they are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.
  
 I think large for a WISP has to be at the 5000 sub or higher mark.  I 
 for one can only think of three or four companies at that mark... and 
 they all use Canopy...
  
 Since I don't get out to the East coast... I know I can be very very 
 wrong
 :-)  I should have put that disclaimer on that statement (so I 
 apologize!)
  
 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks
  
   

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:43 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
  
 

 the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason
   

 Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may 
 use Canopy..  But that comment is in no way true.
  
 I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion,
 
   StarOS, etc.
  
 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
  
  
 - Original Message -
 From: 3-dB Networks  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'WISPA General List'  mailto:wireless@wispa.org 
 wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
  
  
 

 Steve,
  
 I think Mesa Networks

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread Travis Johnson




At ISPCon, JAB said they had 50,000 subs so does that mean only 50%
is Canopy? ;)

Travis
Microserv

3-dB Networks wrote:

  That's why I pointed out that three of the companies they rolled up were
large Canopy WISP's in of themselves.

If Digis was 15,000 Canopy Subscribers... than that makes probably 26,000 or
so of that amount representative from Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband that is
Canopy (Taking out about a 1,000 for the combined Tranzeo customers in the
network, although that number is probably pretty high).

Daniel White
3-dB Networks

  
  
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

OK, we'll give you JAB, as one of the largest WISPs that uses Canopy.

However,  it should be noted there is a difference between a large wisp
and
a roll up.
Sure if a Roll up just aquired a lot of WISPs, they are going to be a
Large
company of one product line.
Its purely coincidental that it played out that way. Had there been a
Alvarion or Trango roll up, they could easilly scale to same proportion.
Its not necessarilly fair to compare a Roll up venture to original owner
companies.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: "Chuck McCown - 3" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds




  JAB?  They probably have 50,000 subs by now.  Canopy shop.

- Original Message -
From: "Tom DeReggi" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


  
  
Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.

But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics

  

that


  
back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large

  

provider


  
market.

What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban
WISPs. They use Aperto.
What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two
occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot

  

of


  
Alvarion later on.
What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of
Trango
at one point.
What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he

  

was


  
mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
primarilly a Canopy shop.

Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve

  

in


  
compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and

  

beyond.


  
But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.

You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most
all
of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the
largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs

  

to


  
now
buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting

  

that


  
Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay.

I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap
frog
game.  Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently,
because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific

  

application


  
on
this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well

  

may


  
bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are

  

new


  
products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650

  

markets.


  
And the comment "are swapping out their Trango gear anyways.", that's a
croc.  If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years

  

later,


  
my
Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed.

I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had

  

the


  
reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could
afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for
"small
operators."  To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering

  

leader,


  
and
favorite

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread 3-dB Networks
LOL this would be the point where I have to shut up and not say more than I
already have. but there is a lot of smaller Canopy WISP's in there too :-)

 

Daniel White
3-dB Networks

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:23 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 

At ISPCon, JAB said they had 50,000 subs so does that mean only 50% is
Canopy? ;)

Travis
Microserv

3-dB Networks wrote: 

That's why I pointed out that three of the companies they rolled up were
large Canopy WISP's in of themselves.
 
If Digis was 15,000 Canopy Subscribers... than that makes probably 26,000 or
so of that amount representative from Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband that is
Canopy (Taking out about a 1,000 for the combined Tranzeo customers in the
network, although that number is probably pretty high).
 
Daniel White
3-dB Networks
 
  

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
OK, we'll give you JAB, as one of the largest WISPs that uses Canopy.
 
However,  it should be noted there is a difference between a large wisp
and
a roll up.
Sure if a Roll up just aquired a lot of WISPs, they are going to be a
Large
company of one product line.
Its purely coincidental that it played out that way. Had there been a
Alvarion or Trango roll up, they could easilly scale to same proportion.
Its not necessarilly fair to compare a Roll up venture to original owner
companies.
 
Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
- Original Message -
From: Chuck McCown - 3  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List  mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 9:11 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 


JAB?  They probably have 50,000 subs by now.  Canopy shop.
 
- Original Message -
From: Tom DeReggi  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List  mailto:wireless@wispa.org wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 
  

Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.
 
But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics


that


back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large


provider


market.
 
What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban
WISPs. They use Aperto.
What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two
occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot


of


Alvarion later on.
What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of
Trango
at one point.
What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he


was


mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
primarilly a Canopy shop.
 
Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve


in


compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and


beyond.


But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.
 
You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most
all
of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the
largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs


to


now
buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting


that


Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay.
 
I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap
frog
game.  Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently,
because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific


application


on
this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well


may


bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are


new


products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650


markets.


And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a
croc.  If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years


later,


my
Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed.
 
I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had


the


reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could
afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for
small
operators.  To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering


leader,


and
favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down


the


path to evolve PtMP solutions into the next generation 20

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-05 Thread eje
Sorry but this comment makes me laugh that you can throw out a number like this 
when the wise people that do statistics can't even come to a true conclusion 
how many wisps and other unlicensed operators there are out there. To state 
these numbers as well with as many privately owned manufacturers and 
distributors there are out there selling unlicensed equipment I personally 
wouldn't dare throw out numbers like that so casually like it was THE truth. 

Sure Canopy got a great product and have a big market space. But in the big 
scope on the Moto radar Canopy is a very small market and Moto got their status 
downgraded to junk by SP this week. If they really start hurting I do not 
doubt seeing them hesitate for 2second to scrap or sell their Canopy line. 
/Eje
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-Original Message-
From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 19:25:37 
To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


Digis was 100% Canopy.  I think they had about 15,000 at the time of the 
purchase.
We have 5000+ all Canopy.
Mot has more than 50% of the US market.  So the other 50% is made up of 
Trango, Tranzeo, MT etc etc etc.

- Original Message - 
From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:16 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


 That's probably slightly aggressive Chuck... but at the scale they are at
 your not that far off...

 Its even a more interesting picture if you look at the WISP's they 
 bought...
 Three more large WISP's by my definition, all Canopy shops... are part of
 them.  Mesa, Digis, and LP Broadband.  All Canopy shops (granted Mesa had
 some legacy Tranzeo in there, LP had a lot of Matt Larsen's last WISP's
 Tranzeo gear still running, I don't know anything really about Digis's 
 part
 of the network).

 Heck Chuck... your above 5,000 wireless subs aren't you?

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 7:11 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 JAB?  They probably have 50,000 subs by now.  Canopy shop.

 - Original Message -
 From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 6:16 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


  Again... Canopy is a very popular platform, I do not deny that.
 
  But I still feel there is no basis to your statement, or statistics 
  that
  back up your original statement taht Canopy dominates the large 
  provider
  market.
 
  What about Tower Stream? Last I knew they were one of the largest Urban
  WISPs. They use Aperto.
  What about AirBand, they had some serious numbers at some time, one two
  occasions, I was aware of them buying Proxim at one point, then a lot 
  of
  Alvarion later on.
  What about Prairie-I.net, one of the larger, I know they used alot of
  Trango
  at one point.
  What about Travis, one of the larger, He's bigtime Trango user.
  What about Matt Larson (now w/GAB), he had gotten pretty darn big, he
 was
  mostly Tranzeo and StarOS.
  What about Covad/Nextweb, to the beest of my knowledge they were NOT
  primarilly a Canopy shop.
 
  Sure, Canopy is emergencing as a company that is continueing to evolve
 in
  compatibility with WISP models to enable expansion to 20mbps and 
  beyond.
  But to say Canopy owned the large player market is ludicris.
 
  You could argue Canopy was a preferred choice for many Muni plays, most
  all
  of which went bankrupt or shut down their networks, creating one of the
  largest availability stockpiles of second hand used product for WISPs 
  to
  now
  buy at discount, compared to any other brand. I find it interesting 
  that
  Alvarion and Trango still hold their value higher on Ebay.
 
  I'll also argue that what is considered preferred choice gear is a leap
  frog
  game.  Ironically, I personally have been using some Canopy recently,
  because of a unique value proposition it offers for specific 
  application
  on
  this given day. However, there are many new players, which very well 
  may
  bring the next best product line to the market. A perfect example are
 new
  products like Redline, Aperto, Alvarion dominating the new 3650 
  markets.
 
  And the comment are swapping out their Trango gear anyways., that's a
  croc.  If they are swapping them out, they are fools. Eight years 
  later,
  my
  Trangos are as strong as the day they were installed.
 
  I'd actually argue the opposite of your comment. Alvarion always had 
  the
  reputation as the choice for the larger VC funded companies that could
  afford the best. Canopy is more destined to be a preferred choice for
  small
  operators.  To Canopy's luck, Trango, the price and engineering 
  leader,
  and
  favorite to many medium size providers, decided not to continue down

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-04 Thread Steve Barnes
I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that
the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install.  You
still have to pay for it.  It may make cash flow easier but the ROI
takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co.
Can you help me with that one.

 

Steve

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 

Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install
fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on
every new customer.

Travis
Microserv

Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: 

You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000
subscribers 
things will be a bit better.
 
- Original Message - 
From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
mailto:wireless@wispa.org 
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 
  

I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth
different
WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended
equipment
that is so often discussed on this list.
 
 
 
I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch
each
penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to
service the
clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other
that
what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8
towers with
320 clients.
 
 
 
The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a
$59.99 Pro
Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn
off the
speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M
on any
of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS
Full
Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost
of with
another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to
achieve
10MB to each client is financially Impossible.
 
 
 
Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.
What do
you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.
 
 
 
Please don't start with the statement, How you should have
started you
service.  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have
and I
know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in
the same
boat.
 
 
 
So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND
definition
without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is
everyone
charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing
is not
readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.
No
Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
Verizon.
 
 
 
Steve Barnes
 
RC-WiFi.com
 
 
 



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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-04 Thread Steve Barnes
I am on B only. We have very noisy 2.4 and I have been told adding G to
the AP and CPE just increases the noise.  Is that Wrong?  What will G do
to my Distance customers.

Steve Barnes

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 1:08 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

I've only used 5 GHz MT, but I don't have a problem with someone pulling
20+ 
megs...  now I don't have that much upstream, but the network can do it.

I'm assuming that you are using cards in B mode if you can only get 3.5 
mbit.  A lot of people are against G mode, but I don't' think it's that
much 
different from A and A works just fine for me.

Then again, I am ALL Atheros MT, nothing else.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:32 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
 WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended
equipment
 that is so often discussed on this list.



 I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
 penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service
the
 clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
 what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
 320 clients.



 The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99
Pro
 Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
 speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
 of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
 Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of
with
 another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.



 Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
 you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.



 Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started
you
 service.  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
 know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
 boat.



 So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
 without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
 charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is
not
 readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
 Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
 Verizon.



 Steve Barnes

 RC-WiFi.com






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 http://signup.wispa.org/




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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-04 Thread eje
G is not very good on handling lot of noisy. I have bit similar problem as you 
in one area. Customer experience gets much better with the unit set in B mode. 
Higher throughput and more stable connection. 

/Eje
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-Original Message-
From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 05:57:41 
To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


I am on B only. We have very noisy 2.4 and I have been told adding G to
the AP and CPE just increases the noise.  Is that Wrong?  What will G do
to my Distance customers.

Steve Barnes

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 1:08 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

I've only used 5 GHz MT, but I don't have a problem with someone pulling
20+ 
megs...  now I don't have that much upstream, but the network can do it.

I'm assuming that you are using cards in B mode if you can only get 3.5 
mbit.  A lot of people are against G mode, but I don't' think it's that
much 
different from A and A works just fine for me.

Then again, I am ALL Atheros MT, nothing else.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:32 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
 WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended
equipment
 that is so often discussed on this list.



 I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
 penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service
the
 clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
 what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
 320 clients.



 The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99
Pro
 Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
 speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
 of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
 Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of
with
 another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.



 Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
 you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.



 Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started
you
 service.  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
 know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
 boat.



 So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
 without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
 charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is
not
 readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
 Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
 Verizon.



 Steve Barnes

 RC-WiFi.com






 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/




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 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-04 Thread 3-dB Networks
Steve,

I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our company we
are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our
success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP.  He wrote an article here
about leasing that might change your mind.  http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx

Basically look at it this way.  If you lease your equipment, it allows you
to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your
revenue.  You end up paying more in the long run because of the interest,
but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your vendor
instead of individual or 5 packs.  Todd probably explains it better in the
article.

Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another WISP can
replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is equipment
related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an 802.11a/b/g
solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were on
KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really fast.  We had
many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been successful
without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an AP.  Our
WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we hit the
limitations of the KarlNet system.  My experiences with a Tranzeo network in
2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that much (its
all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to it).  So
while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network and start
over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason.

My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents isn't worth
much anymore)

Daniel White
3-dB Networks

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Steve Barnes
 Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:53 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that
 the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install.  You
 still have to pay for it.  It may make cash flow easier but the ROI
 takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co.
 Can you help me with that one.
 
 
 
 Steve
 
 
 
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Travis Johnson
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 
 
 Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install
 fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on
 every new customer.
 
 Travis
 Microserv
 
 Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
 
 You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000
 subscribers
 things will be a bit better.
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 mailto:wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
 Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 
 
 
   I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth
 different
   WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended
 equipment
   that is so often discussed on this list.
 
 
 
   I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch
 each
   penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to
 service the
   clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other
 that
   what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8
 towers with
   320 clients.
 
 
 
   The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a
 $59.99 Pro
   Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn
 off the
   speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M
 on any
   of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS
 Full
   Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost
 of with
   another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to
 achieve
   10MB to each client is financially Impossible.
 
 
 
   Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.
 What do
   you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.
 
 
 
   Please don't start with the statement, How you should have
 started you
   service.  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have
 and I
   know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in
 the same
   boat.
 
 
 
   So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND
 definition
   without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is
 everyone
   charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing
 is not
   readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.
 No
   Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
   Verizon.
 
 
 
   Steve Barnes
 
   RC-WiFi.com

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-04 Thread eje
XR5's are not prism chipset they are atheros chipsets as well. 6th gen Atheros 
to be more exact. All Ubiquiti products are Atheros base as well so are all 
MikroTiks radio cards as well. 

/Eje
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-Original Message-
From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 01:10:43 
To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


XR5's are Prism for my APs
R52's are Atheros for my CPEs

I have not heard of any chipset differences in performance - anyone else
have this?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:08 AM, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 I've only used 5 GHz MT, but I don't have a problem with someone pulling
 20+
 megs...  now I don't have that much upstream, but the network can do it.
 I'm assuming that you are using cards in B mode if you can only get 3.5
 mbit.  A lot of people are against G mode, but I don't' think it's that
 much
 different from A and A works just fine for me.

 Then again, I am ALL Atheros MT, nothing else.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:32 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds

  I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
  WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment
  that is so often discussed on this list.
 
 
 
  I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
  penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service the
  clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
  what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
  320 clients.
 
 
 
  The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro
  Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
  speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
  of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
  Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with
  another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
  10MB to each client is financially Impossible.
 
 
 
  Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
  you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.
 
 
 
  Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you
  service.  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
  know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
  boat.
 
 
 
  So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
  without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
  charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is not
  readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
  Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
  Verizon.
 
 
 
  Steve Barnes
 
  RC-WiFi.com
 
 
 
 
 
  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
  http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
 
  WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
  Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
  http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
  Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
 



 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-04 Thread Mike Hammett
All Ubiquiti cards up to this point, anyway, are Atheros.

The difference is that with Atheros cards you can use Mikrotik's N-Streme, 
which can almost double capacity.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:10 AM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 XR5's are Prism for my APs
 R52's are Atheros for my CPEs

 I have not heard of any chipset differences in performance - anyone else
 have this?

 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
 --- Henry Spencer


 On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:08 AM, Mike Hammett 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 I've only used 5 GHz MT, but I don't have a problem with someone pulling
 20+
 megs...  now I don't have that much upstream, but the network can do it.
 I'm assuming that you are using cards in B mode if you can only get 3.5
 mbit.  A lot of people are against G mode, but I don't' think it's that
 much
 different from A and A works just fine for me.

 Then again, I am ALL Atheros MT, nothing else.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:32 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds

  I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
  WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended 
  equipment
  that is so often discussed on this list.
 
 
 
  I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
  penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service the
  clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
  what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
  320 clients.
 
 
 
  The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 
  Pro
  Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
  speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
  of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
  Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with
  another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
  10MB to each client is financially Impossible.
 
 
 
  Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
  you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.
 
 
 
  Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you
  service.  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
  know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
  boat.
 
 
 
  So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
  without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
  charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is not
  readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
  Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
  Verizon.
 
 
 
  Steve Barnes
 
  RC-WiFi.com
 
 
 
 
 
  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
  http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
 
  WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-04 Thread Travis Johnson
Hi,

Yes, you still have to pay for it... but instead of being upside down 
with the customer for the first 3-6 months (depending on equipment), you 
begin making money on that customer from day 1. So you no longer worry 
about do I have enough money to buy the equipment to install that 
customer and instead can focus on get as many customers installed as 
quickly as possible.

Also, by buying 250 units at a time, you get a much better price on the 
equipment... which sometimes can even out the extra you pay by financing.

Travis
Microserv

Steve Barnes wrote:
 I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that
 the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install.  You
 still have to pay for it.  It may make cash flow easier but the ROI
 takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co.
 Can you help me with that one.

  

 Steve

  

 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Travis Johnson
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

  

 Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install
 fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on
 every new customer.

 Travis
 Microserv

 Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: 

 You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000
 subscribers 
 things will be a bit better.
  
 - Original Message - 
 From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 mailto:wireless@wispa.org 
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
 Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds
  
  
   

   I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth
 different
   WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended
 equipment
   that is so often discussed on this list.



   I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch
 each
   penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to
 service the
   clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other
 that
   what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8
 towers with
   320 clients.



   The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a
 $59.99 Pro
   Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn
 off the
   speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M
 on any
   of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS
 Full
   Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost
 of with
   another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to
 achieve
   10MB to each client is financially Impossible.



   Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.
 What do
   you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.



   Please don't start with the statement, How you should have
 started you
   service.  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have
 and I
   know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in
 the same
   boat.



   So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND
 definition
   without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is
 everyone
   charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing
 is not
   readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.
 No
   Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
   Verizon.



   Steve Barnes

   RC-WiFi.com



   
 
 
   WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-04 Thread Jeff Broadwick
Congratulations on the new digs Eje!  Sorry we couldn't make the grand
opening.

I knew you back when it really just was Mom and Pop.  It's exciting to see
how far you've come in such a short time.

Jeff


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:53 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

XR5's are not prism chipset they are atheros chipsets as well. 6th gen
Atheros to be more exact. All Ubiquiti products are Atheros base as well so
are all MikroTiks radio cards as well. 

/Eje
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-Original Message-
From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 01:10:43
To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


XR5's are Prism for my APs
R52's are Atheros for my CPEs

I have not heard of any chipset differences in performance - anyone else
have this?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:08 AM, Mike Hammett
[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 I've only used 5 GHz MT, but I don't have a problem with someone pulling
 20+
 megs...  now I don't have that much upstream, but the network can do it.
 I'm assuming that you are using cards in B mode if you can only get 3.5
 mbit.  A lot of people are against G mode, but I don't' think it's that
 much
 different from A and A works just fine for me.

 Then again, I am ALL Atheros MT, nothing else.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:32 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds

  I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
  WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment
  that is so often discussed on this list.
 
 
 
  I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
  penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service the
  clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
  what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
  320 clients.
 
 
 
  The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro
  Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
  speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
  of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
  Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with
  another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
  10MB to each client is financially Impossible.
 
 
 
  Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
  you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.
 
 
 
  Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you
  service.  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
  know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
  boat.
 
 
 
  So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
  without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
  charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is not
  readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
  Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
  Verizon.
 
 
 
  Steve Barnes
 
  RC-WiFi.com
 
 
 
 



  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
  http://signup.wispa.org/
 



 
  WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-04 Thread Charles Wu (CTI)
In small business (especially growing startups that are still looking to reach 
that critical mass of break-even / profitability, which, I generally see in the 
WISP space at about 1000 customers or $50k / month in total revenue) cash is 
king

If you look at statistics, over 80% of all small business failures occur in 
highly profitable / fast growth situations that simply run out of cash

It doesn't matter how many subscribers you have signed up for installation -- 
if you can't make payroll (which is generally the #1 expense of any business) / 
pay your bandwidth / tower / whatever bills, you're done

-Charles

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 4:53 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that
the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install.  You
still have to pay for it.  It may make cash flow easier but the ROI
takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co.
Can you help me with that one.



Steve



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds



Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install
fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on
every new customer.

Travis
Microserv

Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:

You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000
subscribers
things will be a bit better.

- Original Message -
From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
mailto:wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds




I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth
different
WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended
equipment
that is so often discussed on this list.



I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch
each
penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to
service the
clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other
that
what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8
towers with
320 clients.



The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a
$59.99 Pro
Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn
off the
speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M
on any
of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS
Full
Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost
of with
another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to
achieve
10MB to each client is financially Impossible.



Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.
What do
you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.



Please don't start with the statement, How you should have
started you
service.  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have
and I
know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in
the same
boat.



So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND
definition
without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is
everyone
charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing
is not
readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.
No
Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
Verizon.



Steve Barnes

RC-WiFi.com






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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-04 Thread Butch Evans
On Thu, 4 Dec 2008, 3-dB Networks wrote:

I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our 
company we are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom 
attributes part of our success by leasing equipment early on as a 
WISP.  He wrote an article here about leasing that might change 
your mind.  http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx

The article on this page is VERY informative.  I highly encourage 
anyone who is a WISP to read it.

-- 

* Butch Evans   * Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering  *
* http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member   *
* http://blog.butchevans.com/   * Wired or Wireless Networks   *




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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-04 Thread RickG
Travis,

Do you lease or rent the CPE to you customers?

-RickG

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee
 covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on every new
 customer.

 Travis
 Microserv

 Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:

 You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000 subscribers
 things will be a bit better.

 - Original Message -
 From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
 Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds




 I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
 WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment
 that is so often discussed on this list.



 I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
 penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service the
 clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
 what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
 320 clients.



 The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro
 Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
 speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
 of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
 Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with
 another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.



 Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
 you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.



 Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you
 service.  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
 know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
 boat.



 So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
 without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
 charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is not
 readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
 Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
 Verizon.



 Steve Barnes

 RC-WiFi.com



 
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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-04 Thread Travis Johnson




The CPE is our property and it is just part of the monthly service. We
don't charge extra for it (because without it, they can't have
service). 

Travis
Microserv

RickG wrote:

  Travis,

Do you lease or rent the CPE to you customers?

-RickG

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  
Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee
covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside down" on every new
customer.

Travis
Microserv

Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:

You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000 subscribers
things will be a bit better.

- Original Message -
From: "Steve Barnes" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds




I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment
that is so often discussed on this list.



I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service the
clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
320 clients.



The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro
Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with
another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
10MB to each client is financially Impossible.



Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.



Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have started you
service".  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
boat.



So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is not
readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
Verizon.



Steve Barnes

RC-WiFi.com




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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-04 Thread D. Ryan Spott
I have to agree on this. Even though finding leasing as a small ISP is 
_**VERY**_ difficult, it just makes sense.

I have a few deals that I am cooking right now with 6 figure numbers. I 
was pretty shocked with these big numbers when my finance director 
pointed out that over 10 years, a loan on that amount is only $2 per 
sub/month. Done. This is how the larger players do it. They leverage 1-5 
per sub/month for financing of equipment etc for build-outs. Then they 
can do what they do.

If you get to 1000, or 5000 then you are easily able to finance upgrades 
and roll-outs in the 200-500K range!

(I am not a finance guy, I build these crazy operations so please do not 
do financial analysis on the WAG numbers above!) ;)

ryan

Travis Johnson wrote:
 Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the 
 install fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside 
 down on every new customer.

 Travis
 Microserv

 Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
 You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000 subscribers 
 things will be a bit better.

 - Original Message - 
 From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
 Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds


   
 I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
 WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment
 that is so often discussed on this list.



 I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
 penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service the
 clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
 what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
 320 clients.



 The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro
 Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
 speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
 of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
 Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with
 another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.



 Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
 you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.



 Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you
 service.  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
 know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
 boat.



 So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
 without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
 charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is not
 readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
 Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
 Verizon.



 Steve Barnes

 RC-WiFi.com



 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-04 Thread RickG
Same here so we're in sync on that.
As far as leasing, I leased my initial allotment of equipment but the
new sub take rate has been very unpredictable so didnt feel
comfortable enough to add to the monthly lease payment. Therefore,
I've been purchasing additional CPE as I add new subs. This has
allowed me to grow while getting an immeadiate expense deduction on
the new equipment to write off on my new revenue.
Where am I going wrong?
-RickG

On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 The CPE is our property and it is just part of the monthly service. We don't
 charge extra for it (because without it, they can't have service).

 Travis
 Microserv

 RickG wrote:

 Travis,

 Do you lease or rent the CPE to you customers?

 -RickG

 On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee
 covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on every new
 customer.

 Travis
 Microserv

 Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:

 You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000 subscribers
 things will be a bit better.

 - Original Message -
 From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
 Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds




 I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
 WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment
 that is so often discussed on this list.



 I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
 penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service the
 clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
 what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
 320 clients.



 The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro
 Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
 speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
 of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
 Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with
 another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.



 Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
 you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.



 Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you
 service.  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
 know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
 boat.



 So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
 without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
 charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is not
 readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
 Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
 Verizon.



 Steve Barnes

 RC-WiFi.com



 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-04 Thread Travis Johnson




Rick,

I guess the one thing I need to mention was since we started leasing,
we have always had enough installs to cover the equipment we are
buying. I would never buy equipment in the "hopes" that you will have
customers to use it. We have done 100+ installs per month for many
years, so we buy 250 radios at a time. They usually get us by for about
3-4 months (because of other people canceling their service and we pick
up the old radio and re-install it).

You aren't going wrong, and it sounds like your way is working for you
just fine. Really leasing only works if you can get the economies of
scale of buying 250-500 radios at a time, so you get the true cost
savings on the price of the radios to offset the extra cost of the
interest on the lease.

Travis
Microserv

RickG wrote:

  Same here so we're in sync on that.
As far as leasing, I leased my initial allotment of equipment but the
new sub take rate has been very unpredictable so didnt feel
comfortable enough to add to the monthly lease payment. Therefore,
I've been purchasing additional CPE as I add new subs. This has
allowed me to grow while getting an immeadiate expense deduction on
the new equipment to write off on my new revenue.
Where am I going wrong?
-RickG

On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  
The CPE is our property and it is just part of the monthly service. We don't
charge extra for it (because without it, they can't have service).

Travis
Microserv

RickG wrote:

Travis,

Do you lease or rent the CPE to you customers?

-RickG

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee
covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside down" on every new
customer.

Travis
Microserv

Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:

You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000 subscribers
things will be a bit better.

- Original Message -
From: "Steve Barnes" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds




I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment
that is so often discussed on this list.



I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service the
clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
320 clients.



The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro
Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with
another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
10MB to each client is financially Impossible.



Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.



Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have started you
service".  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
boat.



So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is not
readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
Verizon.



Steve Barnes

RC-WiFi.com




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Archives: 

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-04 Thread Tom DeReggi
 the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason

Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use 
Canopy..  But that comment is in no way true.

I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion, 
StarOS, etc.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: 3-dB Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


 Steve,

 I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our company we
 are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our
 success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP.  He wrote an article here
 about leasing that might change your mind.  http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx

 Basically look at it this way.  If you lease your equipment, it allows you
 to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your
 revenue.  You end up paying more in the long run because of the interest,
 but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your vendor
 instead of individual or 5 packs.  Todd probably explains it better in the
 article.

 Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another WISP 
 can
 replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is equipment
 related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an 802.11a/b/g
 solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were on
 KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really fast.  We 
 had
 many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been successful
 without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an AP.  Our
 WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we hit the
 limitations of the KarlNet system.  My experiences with a Tranzeo network 
 in
 2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that much (its
 all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to it).  So
 while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network and start
 over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason.

 My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents isn't worth
 much anymore)

 Daniel White
 3-dB Networks

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Steve Barnes
 Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:53 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that
 the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install.  You
 still have to pay for it.  It may make cash flow easier but the ROI
 takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co.
 Can you help me with that one.



 Steve



 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Travis Johnson
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds



 Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install
 fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on
 every new customer.

 Travis
 Microserv

 Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:

 You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000
 subscribers
 things will be a bit better.

 - Original Message -
 From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 mailto:wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
 Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds




 I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth
 different
 WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended
 equipment
 that is so often discussed on this list.



 I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch
 each
 penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to
 service the
 clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other
 that
 what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8
 towers with
 320 clients.



 The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a
 $59.99 Pro
 Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn
 off the
 speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M
 on any
 of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS
 Full
 Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost
 of with
 another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to
 achieve
 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.



 Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.
 What do
 you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.



 Please don't start with the statement, How you should have
 started you
 service.  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have
 and I
 know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in
 the same
 boat.



 So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-04 Thread Tom DeReggi
I don't question the value of Leasing for a second. I just think that it is 
to hard to get Leasing.
WISPs should not be considered any more HIGH risk than any other business. 
In today's economy WISPs are doing better than many other industries, and 
the demand is still growing daily.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


 Hi,

 Yes, you still have to pay for it... but instead of being upside down
 with the customer for the first 3-6 months (depending on equipment), you
 begin making money on that customer from day 1. So you no longer worry
 about do I have enough money to buy the equipment to install that
 customer and instead can focus on get as many customers installed as
 quickly as possible.

 Also, by buying 250 units at a time, you get a much better price on the
 equipment... which sometimes can even out the extra you pay by financing.

 Travis
 Microserv

 Steve Barnes wrote:
 I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that
 the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install.  You
 still have to pay for it.  It may make cash flow easier but the ROI
 takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co.
 Can you help me with that one.



 Steve



 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Travis Johnson
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds



 Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install
 fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on
 every new customer.

 Travis
 Microserv

 Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:

 You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000
 subscribers
 things will be a bit better.

 - Original Message - 
 From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 mailto:wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
 Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds




 I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth
 different
 WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended
 equipment
 that is so often discussed on this list.



 I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch
 each
 penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to
 service the
 clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other
 that
 what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8
 towers with
 320 clients.



 The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a
 $59.99 Pro
 Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn
 off the
 speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M
 on any
 of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS
 Full
 Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost
 of with
 another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to
 achieve
 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.



 Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.
 What do
 you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.



 Please don't start with the statement, How you should have
 started you
 service.  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have
 and I
 know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in
 the same
 boat.



 So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND
 definition
 without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is
 everyone
 charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing
 is not
 readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.
 No
 Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
 Verizon.



 Steve Barnes

 RC-WiFi.com




 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/

 
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

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 WISPA Wireless List

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-04 Thread Dennis Burgess - LinkTechs
You would think that this would bring down the risk factor. 

--
* Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik  WISP Support Services*
314-735-0270
http://www.linktechs.net http://www.linktechs.net/

*/ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training 
http://www.linktechs.net/onlinetraining.asp/*



Tom DeReggi wrote:
 I don't question the value of Leasing for a second. I just think that it is 
 to hard to get Leasing.
 WISPs should not be considered any more HIGH risk than any other business. 
 In today's economy WISPs are doing better than many other industries, and 
 the demand is still growing daily.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message - 
 From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:36 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


   
 Hi,

 Yes, you still have to pay for it... but instead of being upside down
 with the customer for the first 3-6 months (depending on equipment), you
 begin making money on that customer from day 1. So you no longer worry
 about do I have enough money to buy the equipment to install that
 customer and instead can focus on get as many customers installed as
 quickly as possible.

 Also, by buying 250 units at a time, you get a much better price on the
 equipment... which sometimes can even out the extra you pay by financing.

 Travis
 Microserv

 Steve Barnes wrote:
 
 I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that
 the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install.  You
 still have to pay for it.  It may make cash flow easier but the ROI
 takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co.
 Can you help me with that one.



 Steve



 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Travis Johnson
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds



 Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install
 fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't upside down on
 every new customer.

 Travis
 Microserv

 Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:

 You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000
 subscribers
 things will be a bit better.

 - Original Message - 
 From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 mailto:wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
 Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds




 I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth
 different
 WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended
 equipment
 that is so often discussed on this list.



 I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch
 each
 penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to
 service the
 clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other
 that
 what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8
 towers with
 320 clients.



 The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a
 $59.99 Pro
 Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn
 off the
 speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M
 on any
 of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS
 Full
 Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost
 of with
 another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to
 achieve
 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.



 Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.
 What do
 you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.



 Please don't start with the statement, How you should have
 started you
 service.  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have
 and I
 know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in
 the same
 boat.



 So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND
 definition
 without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is
 everyone
 charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing
 is not
 readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.
 No
 Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
 Verizon.



 Steve Barnes

 RC-WiFi.com




 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/

 
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/






 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-03 Thread CHUCK PROFITO
Good one Steve !!  I want to know too !

Chuck Profito
209-988-7388
CV-ACCESS, INC
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Providing High Speed Broadband 
to Rural Central California
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steve Barnes
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 6:32 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds

I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment
that is so often discussed on this list.

 

I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service the
clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
320 clients.  

 

The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro
Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with
another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
10MB to each client is financially Impossible. 

 

Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.  

 

Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you
service.  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
boat.  

 

So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is not
readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
Verizon.

 

Steve Barnes

RC-WiFi.com





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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-03 Thread Chuck McCown - 3
You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000 subscribers 
things will be a bit better.

- Original Message - 
From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds


I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
 WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment
 that is so often discussed on this list.



 I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
 penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service the
 clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
 what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
 320 clients.



 The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro
 Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
 speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
 of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
 Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with
 another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.



 Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
 you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.



 Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you
 service.  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
 know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
 boat.



 So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
 without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
 charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is not
 readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
 Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
 Verizon.



 Steve Barnes

 RC-WiFi.com



 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-03 Thread Travis Johnson




Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the
install fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside
down" on every new customer.

Travis
Microserv

Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:

  You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000 subscribers 
things will be a bit better.

- Original Message - 
From: "Steve Barnes" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds


  
  
I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment
that is so often discussed on this list.



I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service the
clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
320 clients.



The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro
Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with
another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
10MB to each client is financially Impossible.



Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.



Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have started you
service".  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
boat.



So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is not
readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
Verizon.



Steve Barnes

RC-WiFi.com




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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-03 Thread Mike Hammett
I've only used 5 GHz MT, but I don't have a problem with someone pulling 20+ 
megs...  now I don't have that much upstream, but the network can do it. 
I'm assuming that you are using cards in B mode if you can only get 3.5 
mbit.  A lot of people are against G mode, but I don't' think it's that much 
different from A and A works just fine for me.

Then again, I am ALL Atheros MT, nothing else.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:32 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
 WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment
 that is so often discussed on this list.



 I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
 penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service the
 clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
 what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
 320 clients.



 The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro
 Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
 speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
 of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
 Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with
 another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.



 Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
 you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.



 Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you
 service.  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
 know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
 boat.



 So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
 without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
 charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is not
 readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
 Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
 Verizon.



 Steve Barnes

 RC-WiFi.com



 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
 



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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

2008-12-03 Thread Josh Luthman
XR5's are Prism for my APs
R52's are Atheros for my CPEs

I have not heard of any chipset differences in performance - anyone else
have this?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:08 AM, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 I've only used 5 GHz MT, but I don't have a problem with someone pulling
 20+
 megs...  now I don't have that much upstream, but the network can do it.
 I'm assuming that you are using cards in B mode if you can only get 3.5
 mbit.  A lot of people are against G mode, but I don't' think it's that
 much
 different from A and A works just fine for me.

 Then again, I am ALL Atheros MT, nothing else.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:32 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds

  I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
  WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment
  that is so often discussed on this list.
 
 
 
  I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
  penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service the
  clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
  what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
  320 clients.
 
 
 
  The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro
  Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
  speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
  of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
  Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with
  another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
  10MB to each client is financially Impossible.
 
 
 
  Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
  you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.
 
 
 
  Please don't start with the statement, How you should have started you
  service.  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
  know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
  boat.
 
 
 
  So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
  without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
  charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is not
  readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
  Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
  Verizon.
 
 
 
  Steve Barnes
 
  RC-WiFi.com
 
 
 
 
 
  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
  http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
 
  WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
  Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
  http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
  Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
 



 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/

 

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