RE: [WSG] Source order of content / navigation

[Steve Green]

I am familiar with that research but until now I didn't realise that Russ had 
been involved - well done for the good work.

The source order does not only affect people who use assistive technologies. 
Many people use keyboard-only navigation, and it is very confusing when the 
visual order does not match the source order. I use a lot of keyboard 
navigation through choice, not necessity, and the BBC website used to drive me 
to screaming point because the tab order went all over the place even though 
the visual order was completely conventional. You never knew where to look to 
find which element had focus. Thankfully most of the pages using that template 
have been replaced.

We do a lot of user testing with people with disabilities and we find that they 
use a variety of techniques for navigation. The more-experienced ones will 
adapt their approach depending on the design of the website. The 
less-experienced ones do indeed tend to navigate in a linear fashion for fear 
of missing something important.

Don't take any notice of the WCAG guidance from 2005 or earlier. The first 
draft of WCAG 2.0 was radically different from the version that was finally 
released. Following widespread criticism there was an almost total rewrite in 
2007 and 2008. Your particular reference has been rephrased in the latest 
version at 
http://www.w3.org/TR/UNDERSTANDING-WCAG20/navigation-mechanisms-focus-order.html,
 and it lacks context such as what the left-hand navigation is for and why it 
is deemed necessary for the focus to move to the main body content first.

As a general principle, meeting users' expectations is important for a good 
user experience. As Steve Krug said, "don't make me think".

Steve

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Russ Weakley
Sent: 05 June 2012 23:53
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Source order of content / navigation

An interesting discussion...

Back in 2006, Roger Hudson, Lisa Miller and I conducted testing on three 
aspects associated with screen reader use (skip links, source order and 
structural lables).

The findings regarding source order:

"t appears that when visiting a web page, most, if not all, screen reader users 
expect at least the main site navigation to be presented before the content of 
the page. There appears to be little evidence to support the view that screen 
reader users would prefer to have the content presented first, or find sites 
easier to use when this occurs. It is our view, that a continuation of the 
practice of placing navigation before the content of the page will benefit some 
screen reader users, in particular those users who are still developing their 
skills with the technology. It is probably desirable however, to present the 
content of the page before extraneous information, such as advertisements and 
related links, as well as the page footer." 

Interpret as you see fit  :)
Russ



On 06/06/2012, at 8:35 AM, Kevin Rapley wrote:

> I have started a new thread for this discussion, as not to hijack the thread 
> on skip links.
> 
> Thanks for the reply Steve. As I said, it is another school of thought (not 
> necessarily my own). I wouldn't use content first source ordering for 
> commercial implementations as the overhead of relocating items in CSS far 
> outweighs any accessibility benefits (at this time). However, with newer 
> layout methods on the horizon, such as CSS flex-box, where reordering source 
> order will be far simpler, this is a very real and worthwhile possibility. I 
> disagree that it is really bad practice. As mentioned, users of assistive 
> technologies will rarely read a page in a linear fashion.
> 
> WCAG 2 likes to contradict itself (but I am sure you knew that already:
> 
> WCAG 2.0, includes Success Criterion 2.4.3, which states:
> 
> 2.4.3 - Blocks of content that are repeated on multiple perceivable 
> units are implemented so that they can be bypassed. (Level 2)
> 
> WCAG 2.0 - Guideline 2.4.3
> 
> The document, "Understanding WCAG 2.0 (Working Draft 23 November 2005)", 
> includes the following as one of the techniques that can be used to meet 
> Success Criterion 2.4.3:
> 
> "Structuring the content so the main content comes first (in structure - but 
> the default presentation may be a different order), and adding links to the 
> blocks of repeated content."
> 
> On 5 June 2012 22:57, Steve Green  wrote:
> I do not recommend putting the navigation after the content. In fact I would 
> go as far as to say it's a really bad practice because it violates every 
> user's expectation of where the navigation will be. Using CSS to position it 
> above the content makes things even worse because the tab order no longer 
> follows the visual ord

RE: [WSG] WCAG 2.0 compliance and best practise on the "Skip to" function [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]

[Steve Green]

I do not recommend putting the navigation after the content. In fact I would go 
as far as to say it's a really bad practice because it violates every user's 
expectation of where the navigation will be. Using CSS to position it above the 
content makes things even worse because the tab order no longer follows the 
visual order.

The Web Content Accessibility Guidelines specifically state that the DOM order 
should match the visual order - see 
http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20120103/C27

I have no problem with the 'Return to top of page' link, although the purists 
would argue that it is merely replicating the function of the Home key. Of 
course tablets and mobile phones don't have a Home key, which sort of 
undermines that argument.

Steve

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Kevin Rapley
Sent: 05 June 2012 22:37
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] WCAG 2.0 compliance and best practise on the "Skip to" 
function [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]

I agree with the consensus that less is more with the skip navigation links at 
the top of the document. "Skip to main content" in the majority of cases will 
be all you need. If you are getting to a point where by rights you need a skip 
link, to skip the list of skip links, as they have grown so long you know you 
are following a bad path ;)

Another school of thinking is to write the HTML source order so that navigation 
appears after the content, and use CSS to relocate the menu to the top of the 
page for sighted users. Of course you would still benefit from a skip link at 
the start of the navigation menu to skip past it/return to start of content. 
Note, it is a common misconception that users of assistive technologies 
linearly read a web page, when in fact the tools they have at their disposal 
allow them to traverse a page in multiple different ways. For instance, they 
can call out a dialog which lists all of the links on the page, or gain context 
by traversing a semantic document tree of the nested headings on the page. In 
these contexts, skip navigation is largely useless.

This may be overkill, I will be interested to hear opinions, but I also place a 
note with ability to return to the top of the page too:


End of page.

Return to top 
of page




I guess this could be extended to have a further link to "Return to start of 
content." The idea with this is to notify the user that they have reached the 
end of the document, and rather than leave them at a loose end, give them 
options to traverse elsewhere.

On 5 June 2012 05:49, Blumer, Luke 
mailto:luke.blu...@ato.gov.au>> wrote:

Hi All,

We are currently in the process of redesigning our website and are looking into 
the "Skip to" functionality.

We are currently considering using:

  *   Skip to Search
  *   Skip to Primary Navigation
  *   Skip to Secondary Navigation
  *   Skip to Main Content
  *   Skip to Sitemap


We are wondering if there is any information on best practice for the "Skip to" 
function and whether there is a generally acceptable limit as to how many "Skip 
to" links should be used?

We are also wondering whether we should be considering other ways for users to 
navigate around our pages such as AccessKey 
http://validator.w3.org/accesskeys.html and whether this technique should be 
used to reduce the number of "Skip to" links we have listed above?

Is there any native browser functionality that performs any of these functions 
that we should account for?

Thankyou in advance for any advice.

Regards,

Luke Blumer
Web Project Officer | Corporate Relations
Australian Taxation Office
Phone: 02 6216 2970

**
IMPORTANT
The information transmitted is for the use of the intended
recipient only and may contain confidential and/or legally
privileged material. Any review, re-transmission, disclosure,
dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in
reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other
than the intended recipient is prohibited and may result in
severe penalties. If you have received this e-mail in error
please notify the Privacy Hotline of the Australian Taxation
Office, telephone 13 2869 and delete all copies of this
transmission together with any attachments.
**

***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.or

[WSG] RE: WCAG 2.0 compliance and best practise on the "Skip to" function [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]

[Steve Green]

Five 'skip' links is definitely too many and I would say that three is the 
absolute maximum. During user testing we often get adverse comments if there 
are more than two. A single 'skip to content' link should be sufficient if the 
search form and sitemap link are at the top of the page (where people expect 
them), followed by the navigation then the content.

It has been widely accepted in the accessibility community the many years, that 
accesskeys should not be used because every accesskey conflicts with an 
accesskey in one or more widely used application or assistive technology.

As others have said, not all browsers work correctly with 'skip' links, in 
particular Safari, Chrome and Opera. It's unbelievable that these bugs have not 
been fixed after so many years, but that's the case. In my view, most people 
who benefit from the use of 'skip' links are not likely to be using these 
browsers.

I believe that Opera has the native ability to jump to headings, so that would 
provide a very similar capability, especially if you add hidden headings for 
the navigation. I don't believe any other browsers have any such features yet.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd


From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [li...@webstandardsgroup.org] on behalf of 
Blumer, Luke [luke.blu...@ato.gov.au]
Sent: 05 June 2012 05:49
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] WCAG 2.0 compliance and best practise on the "Skip to" function 
[SEC=UNOFFICIAL]


Hi All,

We are currently in the process of redesigning our website and are looking into 
the "Skip to" functionality.

We are currently considering using:

  *   Skip to Search
  *   Skip to Primary Navigation
  *   Skip to Secondary Navigation
  *   Skip to Main Content
  *   Skip to Sitemap

We are wondering if there is any information on best practice for the "Skip to" 
function and whether there is a generally acceptable limit as to how many "Skip 
to" links should be used?

We are also wondering whether we should be considering other ways for users to 
navigate around our pages such as AccessKey 
http://validator.w3.org/accesskeys.html and whether this technique should be 
used to reduce the number of "Skip to" links we have listed above?

Is there any native browser functionality that performs any of these functions 
that we should account for?

Thankyou in advance for any advice.

Regards,

Luke Blumer
Web Project Officer | Corporate Relations
Australian Taxation Office
Phone: 02 6216 2970

**
IMPORTANT
The information transmitted is for the use of the intended
recipient only and may contain confidential and/or legally
privileged material. Any review, re-transmission, disclosure,
dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in
reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other
than the intended recipient is prohibited and may result in
severe penalties. If you have received this e-mail in error
please notify the Privacy Hotline of the Australian Taxation
Office, telephone 13 2869 and delete all copies of this
transmission together with any attachments.
**

***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] WSG - Time for a re-think on WSG.

[Steve Green]

" You wouldn't put up with a web page that forced you to read a short message 
and hit the delete key before seeing the rest of the page."

That's exactly what the new European cookie law is going to force you to do.


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Jim Croft
Sent: 19 March 2012 03:10
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] WSG - Time for a re-think on WSG.

yes - it is no big deal as an individual act, but in aggregate contributes to 
the advere side of the S:N ratio. The fact that it is demonstrably totally 
unnecessary makes it all the more irritating.
Yes, I could write a filter to catch these messages, but this is the 21st 
century, there are email transfer standards, we have 24 hr wireless pizza 
delivery, and I shouldn't have to.

You wouldn't put up with a web page that forced you to read a short message and 
hit the delete key before seeing the rest of the page.
Chances are you would probably not go there more than twice (the second time to 
confirm, 'are you for real?!').

If people are already at borderline S:N, 'a very small amount of time'
is it all it is going to take to push them over the 'unsubscribe' edge and seek 
their web standards jollies elsewhere.

Also, it is the professionalism thing...

jim

On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Jon Reece  wrote:
> Personally, I don't mind deleting the few emails (relatively) that are 
> out-of-office replies. If I did, I would probably just set up a filter 
> since I'm using Gmail (and I'm pretty sure most popular email clients 
> support advanced filters as well). I find that the very small amount 
> of time it takes me to select the email, and then select Delete, is 
> really nothing to complain about.
>
> Just my $0.02
>
> - Jon
>
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 8:21 PM, Jim Croft  wrote:
>>
>> It's not really a web standards issue, but the current acceptable 
>> standard for email list servers it to trap 'out of office' messages 
>> and /dev/null them with extreme prejudice.
>>
>> If the current list software can not do this, perhap it too should be 
>> /dev/null'd.
>>
>> I am subscribed to dozens of email lists and this is the only one 
>> that relays out of office spam. Not a good look for a group promoting 
>> quality and standards in communication.
>>
>> jim
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 9:52 AM,   wrote:
>> >
>> > 
>> >
>> > After a while, we humans decide that small annoyances need to end 
>> > and after hearing from an individual I don't know that  "I am off 
>> > sick today" on the WSG group, I have decided enough is enough. What 
>> > Russ and his band of compatriots did back 15 years or so ago to 
>> > create a group and spread the word has been fantastic howeever it 
>> > needs a revival.
>> >
>> >     The vast majority of us are techie, web developers who know a 
>> > thing or two about great websites that are accessible. Isn't that 
>> > what WSG is crying out for? Gopher and Archie have sadly gone and 
>> > so should the current flavour of WSG.
>> >
>> >      WSG could be reincarnated into a thing of beauty and a site to 
>> > behold beacuse with HTML5, a sprinkling of accessibility knowledge 
>> > and a bunch of us hacking away, we could show the world that sites 
>> > can be accessible and uber-cool at the same time.
>> >
>> > Over to you...
>> >
>> > 
>> >
>> > PS Hope you're feeling better
>> >
>> > Ewen Hill
>> > Project Manager.
>> >
>> > ewen.h...@health.vic.gov.au
>> > _
>> >
>> > This email contains confidential information intended only for the 
>> > person named above and may be subject to legal privilege. If you 
>> > are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying or use of 
>> > this information is prohibited. The Department provides no 
>> > guarantee that this communication is free of virus or that it has 
>> > not been intercepted or interfered with. If you have received this 
>> > email in error or have any other concerns regarding its 
>> > transmission, please notify postmas...@dhs.vic.gov.au
>> >
>> > ___
>> > __
>> > ***
>> > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>> > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>> > Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
>> > ***
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> _
>> Jim Croft ~ jim.cr...@gmail.com ~ +61-2-62509499 ~ 
>> http://about.me/jrc 'A civilized society is one which tolerates 
>> eccentricity to the point of doubtful sanity.'
>>  - Robert Frost, poet (1874-1963)
>>
>> Please send URLs, not attachments:
>> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
>>
>>
>> ***
>> List Guideli

RE: [WSG] list heading - best practice?

[Steve Green]

Where do I start? There is nothing right about it. Definition lists are 
primarily intended for specifying the relationship between a term and its 
definition. However, the list items following a heading do not define it. 
Definition lists can also be used for other purposes such as marking up dialog, 
but none of those purposes apply in this case.

An   heading is all that is required, as others have previously said.

Steve

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of coder
Sent: 07 March 2012 12:42
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice?

Come on Steve, tell us why not then?

Bob

- Original Message - 
From: "Steve Green" 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 12:31 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] list heading - best practice?


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Oliver Boermans
Sent: 07 March 2012 11:20
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice?

On 6 March 2012 09:20, Dan Freeman  wrote:
> How about in HTML5?
>
> 
> Some Title
> 
> Item 1
> Item 2
> Item 3
> 
> 
>
> OR:
>
> 
> Some Title
> 
> Item 1
> Item 2
> Item 3
> 
> 

How do people feel about a definition list instead for this?


Some title
Item 1
Item 2
Item 3


Ollie
--

Nooo!!!


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] list heading - best practice?

[Steve Green]

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Oliver Boermans
Sent: 07 March 2012 11:20
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice?

On 6 March 2012 09:20, Dan Freeman  wrote:
> How about in HTML5?
>
> 
>     Some Title
>     
>     Item 1
>     Item 2
>     Item 3
>     
> 
>
> OR:
>
> 
>     Some Title
>     
>     Item 1
>     Item 2
>     Item 3
>     
> 

How do people feel about a definition list instead for this?


Some title
Item 1
Item 2
Item 3


Ollie
--

Nooo!!!


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice?

[Steve Faulkner]

hi again,

maybe i missed something but whats the issue with using heading in a list?

regards
stevef

On 5 March 2012 01:51, Steve Faulkner  wrote:

> Hi, agree with Russ here,
>
> for example does
> 
>
> change the semantics? I think not, use of aria-labelledby is another way
> of doing the same thing.
>
> note in practice for the majority case neither is announced by user agents
> such as assitive technology at the moment.
> Also if it was then you would get a situation where if the user was
> reading through the content they would hear the heading announced then here
> the same text announced when they encountered the list straight after.
>
> regards
> stevef
>
> On 4 March 2012 21:46, Russ Weakley  wrote:
>
>> > The list title
>> > 
>> > ...
>> > 
>> > That way the semantic connection between the list and the heading is
>> kept which I think is the purpose of what you're wanting, yes?
>> > Cheers,
>> > S
>> >
>>
>> I hate to nit-pick, but I'd argue that the aria-labelledby does not
>> really change the semantics of an element. The "semantics" of an element is
>> about defining the element's "core meaning". The core meaning of an  is
>> that it is a level 1 heading.
>>
>> In the case above, the labelledby attribute "exposes" the content inside
>> the heading (via the accessibility API) and associating this content with
>> the unordered list.
>>
>> So, these elements will now have additional meaning for Assistive Devices
>> that support ARIA. However, the attribute does not change the "core
>> meaning" of either of the elements.
>>
>> Does this make sense?
>> Russ
>>
>>
>>
>> ***
>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
>> ***
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> with regards
>
> Steve Faulkner
> Technical Director - TPG
>
> www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
> www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
> HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
> dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
> Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
>
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
>



-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG

www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] list heading - best practice?

[Steve Faulkner]

Hi, agree with Russ here,

for example does


change the semantics? I think not, use of aria-labelledby is another way of
doing the same thing.

note in practice for the majority case neither is announced by user agents
such as assitive technology at the moment.
Also if it was then you would get a situation where if the user was reading
through the content they would hear the heading announced then here the
same text announced when they encountered the list straight after.

regards
stevef

On 4 March 2012 21:46, Russ Weakley  wrote:

> > The list title
> > 
> > ...
> > 
> > That way the semantic connection between the list and the heading is
> kept which I think is the purpose of what you're wanting, yes?
> > Cheers,
> > S
> >
>
> I hate to nit-pick, but I'd argue that the aria-labelledby does not really
> change the semantics of an element. The "semantics" of an element is about
> defining the element's "core meaning". The core meaning of an  is that
> it is a level 1 heading.
>
> In the case above, the labelledby attribute "exposes" the content inside
> the heading (via the accessibility API) and associating this content with
> the unordered list.
>
> So, these elements will now have additional meaning for Assistive Devices
> that support ARIA. However, the attribute does not change the "core
> meaning" of either of the elements.
>
> Does this make sense?
> Russ
>
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
>
>


-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG

www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] Read Speaker?

[Steve Green]

It really depends where you are starting from. If the website is well designed 
(from an accessibility perspective), you don't need ReadSpeaker at all. If the 
website is not well designed, ReadSpeaker may or may not be a solution to the 
accessibility barriers for some people - you just don't know.

Bolting on a tool like that does not give you any insight into how accessible 
or inaccessible the website is, either before or after. Instead I would 
recommend some form of testing in order to understand what the current 
accessibility barriers are, followed by a prioritised schedule of remedial work 
to get to the level you want to achieve. OK, I run a testing company so I am 
bound to say that, but that would also be the view of most accessibility 
professionals.

Given that ReadSpeaker requires an annual payment that used to be thousands of 
pounds (what is it now?), that money could fund a continuous program of 
remedial work that would benefit all user groups rather than the fairly narrow 
range of user groups that benefit from ReadSpeaker.

Steve Green

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of James O'Neill
Sent: 21 February 2012 19:58
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Read Speaker?

"My view is that if you have the budget for these services (and they are not 
cheap) there are much better ways you can spend the money that will benefit 
more people. "

Interesting thought. Examples?


Jim

On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 13:39, Steve Green 
mailto:steve.gr...@testpartners.co.uk>> wrote:
The merits of ReadSpeaker (and BrowseAloud, which is very similar) have been 
discussed at great length in the accessibility community for the best part of a 
decade. There is very little support for them amongst accessibility 
professionals.

My view is that if you have the budget for these services (and they are not 
cheap) there are much better ways you can spend the money that will benefit 
more people.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org<mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org> 
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org<mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org>] On 
Behalf Of James O'Neill
Sent: 21 February 2012 18:34
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org<mailto:wsg@webstandardsgroup.org>
Subject: [WSG] Read Speaker?

Any thoughts on the Usability or Accessibility of Read Speaker

http://www.readspeaker.com<http://www.readspeaker.com/>

If you have any reports, reviews or comparisons that would be great too.


Thanks all,
Jjim

***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org<mailto:memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org>
***

***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org<mailto:memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org>
***


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org<mailto:memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org>
***


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] Read Speaker?

[Steve Green]

The merits of ReadSpeaker (and BrowseAloud, which is very similar) have been 
discussed at great length in the accessibility community for the best part of a 
decade. There is very little support for them amongst accessibility 
professionals.

My view is that if you have the budget for these services (and they are not 
cheap) there are much better ways you can spend the money that will benefit 
more people.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of James O'Neill
Sent: 21 February 2012 18:34
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Read Speaker?

Any thoughts on the Usability or Accessibility of Read Speaker

http://www.readspeaker.com<http://www.readspeaker.com/>

If you have any reports, reviews or comparisons that would be great too.


Thanks all,
Jjim

***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org<mailto:memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org>
***


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] Accessibility: form errors at the end

[Steve Green]

If you are asking whether there needs to be a link from the error message to 
the corresponding form control, the answer is no.

Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd




From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org on behalf of Sue
Sent: Mon 18/07/2011 02:45
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Accessibility: form errors at the end



Hi

Are there any accessibility compliance issues (WCAG 2, level AA) when a user 
arrives at the end of a form and validation* from the backend system throws 
back errors that do not link back to where the error has occurred?

*Validation is based on business rules not field errors such as entering 
invalid email type.

Note: current design due to constraints in budget.

Thanks in advance,
Sue

***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***
<>

RE: [WSG] accessibilty: avoid radio buttons?

[Steve Green]

You are mixing up two unrelated issues. As long as the radio buttons are marked 
up correctly, they will be WCAG 2.0 compliant. The AFB's opinion is irrelevant 
in this respect.
 
The AFB's comments are of interest with regard to the user experience, and it 
would be helpful if they justified their statement. In my opinion, based on 
years of user testing with screen reader users, radio buttons need not be 
difficult to use and are almost never "very difficult" to use. I would agree 
that they are slightly more difficult to use than a select element, and they 
are definitely more difficult to use if they are contained in a fieldset and 
the legend contains a lot of text (the legend is read out before the label for 
each radio button).
 
You have to balance this against the fact that radio buttons are generally 
preferred by most users because they can see all the options at a glance and 
only one click is necessary instead of two.
 
Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd




From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org on behalf of tee
Sent: Sun 17/07/2011 00:14
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] accessibilty: avoid radio buttons?



I am building a site that must meet wcag 2.0 compliant. A web form has radio 
buttons option, and according to afb.org:

Radio buttons are not supported consistently by all versions of browsers, 
screen readers, and combinations. A correctly labeled and tagged set of radio 
buttons is a very difficult control for users of screen-reading technology. If 
a "choose only one" situation is called for, a select menu is preferable.

Is this a sound advice?

Thanks!

tee

***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***
<>

RE: [WSG] Accessibility Testing

[Steve Green]

We are currently negotiating with one of the major automated
accessibility tool vendors to resell their tool in the UK. We cannot
sell into the US so I have forwarded your message and they should
contact you. In my opinion their tool is better than WatchFire and
should also be cheaper.

Any tool only tests about 25% of the WCAG checkpoints, whether it's WCAG
1.0 or 2.0, so we would recommend manual testing at various points in
the website's lifecycle, such as when developing new templates and
perhaps an annual audit. We can provide that service if required.

I endorse the other comment regarding the use of Vision Australia's
tools if you have the skills to use them.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd
 

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of Spellacy, Michael
Sent: 24 June 2011 17:16
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Accessibility Testing

Hi WSG Friends!

The company I work for is considering dropping WatchFire for testing
because of the price. I'm really concerned about not being able to test
code against specific accessibility guidelines like WCAG 1.0 or 2.0. Do
any of you know of any cheaper (or free) applications that do just as
good a job?

Thanks in advance for any recommendations you may have!

Regards,
Spell 

Michael Spellacy
Lead User Interface Developer
TMP Worldwide Advertising & Communications, LLC
125 Broad Street, 10th Floor
New York, NY 10004
www.tmp.com



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] question about screen reader behavior when pulling in content via Ajax fetch

[Steve Faulkner]

hi tee

>which the page has no dtd, body and html tags?

if it renders in the browser the lack of thes above should not effect
screen readers.

note if you have a html file consisting solely of:

poot

the DOM  constructed by the browser looks like this:




poot



what you will probably find is that because you have no  the
page will be rnedered using quirks mode in browsers.

regards

Stevef

On 26 March 2011 06:20, tee  wrote:
> I have a small login  popup box, and is using Ajax fetch to pull in the login 
> page. Due to the way the system works, the login page default is to use a 
> page template instead of just the chunk of login code placed in a header or 
> left/right column, though can be done too but  my view is that the login code 
> shouldn't be in every page since it's to be showed in a modal window so I 
> want it retrieves via Ajax.
>
> I created a template, strip out dtd, body and all other areas except  the 
> code that retrieves the content area (where it will then load the login code 
> template), this all works well.  My concern is, will it be any problem for 
> screen reader read the  login page's info, enter email which the page has no 
> dtd, body and html tags?
>
> Thanks!
>
> tee
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
>
>



-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG

www.paciellogroup.com | www.HTML5accessibility.com |
www.twitter.com/stevefaulkner
HTML5: Techniques for providing useful text alternatives -
dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/
Web Accessibility Toolbar - www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] Mobile testing methods or emulators

[Steve Green]

We use two online services - www.perfectomobile.com and www.deviceanywhere.com. 
These are not emulators - in both cases you are remotely controlling real 
phones.
 
The theory is great but in practice both services are painful to use for all 
kinds of reasons including:
 
1. There is a significant delay between pressing a button and seeing anything 
change.
 
2. The display takes a while to update, which makes it difficult to control 
dynamic content and watch video.
 
3. Sometimes we could not work out how to interact with the phones. For 
instance one phone was locked and it took ten minutes to figure out the 
combination of keypresses (of unlabelled buttons) that was required to unlock 
it. If you are not already familiar with the phone you are controlling, this is 
a significant issue.
 
4. On several phones we were able to open a browser but could not work out how 
to enter a URL. The smartphones mostly support touch, so you can interact using 
a mouse, but you can't do that on the more basic phones. The support 
information is poor on both websites.
 
5. Security is a concern because we are often working under NDA for major 
brands on highly secret product releases. Perfecto Mobile simply say that 
anything you do might be seen by other people, so don't do anything you 
wouldn't want made public.
 
Device Anywhere claim that each session is private and that they have some sort 
of cleaning process before the next person uses the phone. However, on one 
occasion I could see everything that someone else was doing (in real time as 
they were doing it) and I could not control the phone. Somehow our sessions had 
got mixed up, which gave me no confidence in their security.
 
6. Overall it takes much longer to perform any given task - typically 3 to 10 
times longer than you could do the task using a desktop browser. Even typing 
URLs was taking a couple of minutes (they typically contained 50 characters or 
so), so we had to use a URL shortening service to speed that up.
 
Good luck and let us know if you find a better service.
 
Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd




From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org on behalf of Sean K
Sent: Sun 27/03/2011 00:28
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Mobile testing methods or emulators


Hi All,

I was wondering if anyone could give me an idea how to test sites for mobiles? 
I'd like to test Blackberry, HTC and IPhone and I was wondering what methods 
and or tools other people are using for this?

Thanks in advance.

Sean


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***
<>

RE: [WSG] HTML5 v. HTML 4.x

[Steve Green]

That's exactly my point. At any point in time there will be projects
where you should use safe, well-understood, well-supported technologies
and there will be other projects where you can try out new cutting-edge
ones. When making this choice, you should put aside your personal
preferences and broader goals (such as 'improving the web' or 'forcing
users to upgrade their browsers') and base it on what's most appropriate
for your client.
 
Steve



From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of Savl Ekk
Sent: 27 January 2011 14:25
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] HTML5 v. HTML 4.x


I think it's all a matter of careful implementation. All such new things
must be used in agreement with client. Using graceful degradation,
knowing which browsers to support, what technologies available, etc. If
we will not use this new technics now, then it wil be hard for browser
vendors, web services and device makers to develop them futher.
Of course that's all depend on type of site and conditions of work.


2011/1/27 Steve Green 


Both those examples are interesting, and underpin my hesitation
to move to HTML5.
 
In 2004 one of the largest London design agencies persuaded a
corporate client that they could build a complex website using pure CSS
layout. We did the compatibility testing (Netscape 6, IE6, Opera 6 etc)
and it was disastrous. The site eventually launched months late, over
budget and it still looked awful in some major browsers. It was years
too early to try anything like that, and they could see that from the
alpha test results but they ploughed on.
 
Around the same time, everyone including us started to move to
using XHTML. In recent years we all stopped because it was mostly
pointless, especially since you cannot serve it with the correct MIME
type. These days a lot of us have gone back to HTML4 Strict. Why did we
use XHTML? Because it was cool and everyone else was doing so, not
because there was any value in it.
 
Steve



From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org
[mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of designer
Sent: 27 January 2011 13:14
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] HTML5 v. HTML 4.x


I hear what you are saying Steve, but isn't that always the
case?  
 
The HTML5 scenario is becoming de rigueur now, just as a) tables
vs divs and floats and b)XHTML were years ago. It's only by becoming
familiar with 'changes' that one can decide for oneself if there are
advantages (or not). It's not just 'cool', it's advisable - if you want
to make an informed decision.
 
    Bob
 
 

- Original Message - 
From: Steve Green 
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 11:56 AM
Subject: RE: [WSG] HTML5 v. HTML 4.x


In my view it depends on who you are and who is paying for the
website development. If you are building a website for yourself, by all
means spend as much time as you like learning about the new technologies
and implementing them.

However, if you are building a website for someone else, you
should obtain their consent before spending more than is necessary to
meet their needs. HTML4 and XHTML1.0 already meet most needs. At first
it will take developers longer to build sites using HTML5 because they
are less familiar with it, and the client should not have to pay for
that if they are deriving no benefit. If you think there may be some
unquantifiable benefit in the future, ask the client if they want to pay
more now in order to reap that benefit.

I am all for the advancement of accessibility but I feel that a
lot of developers want to use these new technologies because they are
cool and interesting, not because they provide better value for their
clients.

Steve




***
List Guidelines:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org

*** 


***
List Guidelines:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org

*** 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://w

RE: [WSG] HTML5 v. HTML 4.x

[Steve Green]

Both those examples are interesting, and underpin my hesitation to move
to HTML5.
 
In 2004 one of the largest London design agencies persuaded a corporate
client that they could build a complex website using pure CSS layout. We
did the compatibility testing (Netscape 6, IE6, Opera 6 etc) and it was
disastrous. The site eventually launched months late, over budget and it
still looked awful in some major browsers. It was years too early to try
anything like that, and they could see that from the alpha test results
but they ploughed on.
 
Around the same time, everyone including us started to move to using
XHTML. In recent years we all stopped because it was mostly pointless,
especially since you cannot serve it with the correct MIME type. These
days a lot of us have gone back to HTML4 Strict. Why did we use XHTML?
Because it was cool and everyone else was doing so, not because there
was any value in it.
 
Steve



From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of designer
Sent: 27 January 2011 13:14
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] HTML5 v. HTML 4.x


I hear what you are saying Steve, but isn't that always the case?  
 
The HTML5 scenario is becoming de rigueur now, just as a) tables vs divs
and floats and b)XHTML were years ago. It's only by becoming familiar
with 'changes' that one can decide for oneself if there are advantages
(or not). It's not just 'cool', it's advisable - if you want to make an
informed decision.
 
Bob
 
 

- Original Message - 
From: Steve Green 
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org 
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 11:56 AM
Subject: RE: [WSG] HTML5 v. HTML 4.x


In my view it depends on who you are and who is paying for the website
development. If you are building a website for yourself, by all means
spend as much time as you like learning about the new technologies and
implementing them.

However, if you are building a website for someone else, you should
obtain their consent before spending more than is necessary to meet
their needs. HTML4 and XHTML1.0 already meet most needs. At first it
will take developers longer to build sites using HTML5 because they are
less familiar with it, and the client should not have to pay for that if
they are deriving no benefit. If you think there may be some
unquantifiable benefit in the future, ask the client if they want to pay
more now in order to reap that benefit.

I am all for the advancement of accessibility but I feel that a lot of
developers want to use these new technologies because they are cool and
interesting, not because they provide better value for their clients.

Steve



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] HTML5 v. HTML 4.x

[Steve Green]

In my view it depends on who you are and who is paying for the website
development. If you are building a website for yourself, by all means
spend as much time as you like learning about the new technologies and
implementing them.
 
However, if you are building a website for someone else, you should
obtain their consent before spending more than is necessary to meet
their needs. HTML4 and XHTML1.0 already meet most needs. At first it
will take developers longer to build sites using HTML5 because they are
less familiar with it, and the client should not have to pay for that if
they are deriving no benefit. If you think there may be some
unquantifiable benefit in the future, ask the client if they want to pay
more now in order to reap that benefit.
 
I am all for the advancement of accessibility but I feel that a lot of
developers want to use these new technologies because they are cool and
interesting, not because they provide better value for their clients.
 
Steve
 



From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of tee
Sent: 27 January 2011 00:40
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] HTML5 v. HTML 4.x



On Jan 26, 2011, at 1:34 PM, Steve Green wrote:


To the best of my knowledge, all screen readers will 'accept'
the new tags insofar as they will read the content between the tags.
They just won't do anything with the tags themselves.




On 1/25/11 12:34 AM, "Steve Green"
 > wrote:



You can use it, but will anyone benefit from it?
Assistive technologies don't support much, if any, of the new semantics.
I don't know if search engines and other users of programmatic access to
websites are currently able to make use of HTML5 markup, but I have not
seen anything to indicate that they do. So what exactly is the benefit?
 


So we don't progress but wait for the screen readers be ready so that we
can all merrily hold hands marching forward? 

I am not sure this type of skepticism does any good to accessibility as
a whole-I see it does more harm especially the majority of web community
do not think building accessible site a de facto.

It probably does more damage coming from well-recognized and respectable
accessibility practitioners.

How about advice such as "if the site needs to be compliant with DDA
law, or if the majority users are of assistive devices,
think carefully weight over all the pros and crons before jumping on
HTML5 wagon"?  There! I am listening.


tee

***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] HTML5 v. HTML 4.x

[Steve Green]

To the best of my knowledge, all screen readers will 'accept' the new
tags insofar as they will read the content between the tags. They just
won't do anything with the tags themselves.
 



From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of Ted Drake
Sent: 26 January 2011 18:43
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] HTML5 v. HTML 4.x


Hi Steve

Can you give some links to research that back up this statement? As far
as I know, the screen readers will accept the new tags when you are
using something other than Internet Explorer. However, the question is
what they do with them. You cannot navigate via articles  like you'd use
the header navigation. But it's not going to skip an article.

The biggest problems with HTML5 accessibility are: repeated h1 headers,
longdesc attribute being deprecated, captioning, and placing text within
the canvas. At one time there was a conflict when  combining ARIA
landmarks with the new elements. But this is no longer a problem as the
screen reader software was fixed. 

Ted


On 1/25/11 12:34 AM, "Steve Green" 
wrote:



You can use it, but will anyone benefit from it? Assistive
technologies don't support much, if any, of the new semantics. I don't
know if search engines and other users of programmatic access to
websites are currently able to make use of HTML5 markup, but I have not
seen anything to indicate that they do. So what exactly is the benefit?
 
Steve



From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org on behalf of Thierry Koblentz
Sent: Tue 25/01/2011 04:29
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] HTML5 v. HTML 4.x

> At the moment, HTML5 doesn't really bring a significant
benefit, but
> that will change (in years rather than months).

I beg to differ. I believe there are a lot of great stuff that
we can start
using today (mostly related to form controls).
See http://diveintohtml5.org/forms.html and this one about
datalist
http://adactio.com/journal/4272/.


--
Regards,
Thierry
@thierrykoblentz
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | www.css-101.org







***
List Guidelines:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org

***





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] HTML5 v. HTML 4.x

[Steve Green]

True, but the vast majority of the websites we work on have a life of
less than 12 months, often much less - rebuilding annually or more often
is the norm. My inclination is to wait and see what level of AT support
develops before putting significant effort into using HTML5.

Of course it's different if you're building websites that will be around
for years.

Steve
 

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of David Dorward
Sent: 25 January 2011 09:52
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] HTML5 v. HTML 4.x

 
On 25 Jan 2011, at 08:34, Steve Green wrote:

> You can use it, but will anyone benefit from it? Assistive
technologies don't support much, if any, of the new semantics. I don't
know if search engines and other users of programmatic access to
websites are currently able to make use of HTML5 markup, but I have not
seen anything to indicate that they do. So what exactly is the benefit?

It saves having to rewrite the site when AT, SEs, etc do have
significant support for them.

--
David Dorward
http://dorward.me.uk



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] HTML5 v. HTML 4.x

[Steve Green]

You can use it, but will anyone benefit from it? Assistive technologies don't 
support much, if any, of the new semantics. I don't know if search engines and 
other users of programmatic access to websites are currently able to make use 
of HTML5 markup, but I have not seen anything to indicate that they do. So what 
exactly is the benefit?
 
Steve



From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org on behalf of Thierry Koblentz
Sent: Tue 25/01/2011 04:29
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] HTML5 v. HTML 4.x



> At the moment, HTML5 doesn't really bring a significant benefit, but
> that will change (in years rather than months).

I beg to differ. I believe there are a lot of great stuff that we can start
using today (mostly related to form controls).
See http://diveintohtml5.org/forms.html and this one about datalist
http://adactio.com/journal/4272/.


--
Regards,
Thierry
@thierrykoblentz
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | www.css-101.org






***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***
<>

RE: [WSG] HTML5 v. HTML 4.x

[Steve Green]

So called 'semantic classnames' are not semantic at all except in the
case of microformats. The whole point of semantic markup is that the
author and user agree on the terminology and the meaning, and that is
not the case with semantic classnames no matter how obvious they may
seem to you.

Microformats are the only case I know of where the meanings of
classnames have been agreed, published and have some level of take-up.
It is possible that smaller groups of people have created their own
private schemas.

At the moment, HTML5 doesn't really bring a significant benefit, but
that will change (in years rather than months).

Steve
 



From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of grant_malcolm_bai...@westnet.com.au
Sent: 24 January 2011 22:45
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] HTML5 v. HTML 4.x



Hello,

Could someone please clarify this for me. I realise that HTML5 has
introduced new semantic elements such as ,  etc., but
does this really increase the expressive power of the markup? Can't the
same thing be achieved in HTML 4.x using classes (e.g. )?

I am reluctant to move to HTML5 due to the issue of backwards
compatibility.

I would be grateful for any replies.

Regards,

Grant Bailey 
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] Accessible modal windows / lightboxes

[Steve Green]

That would do no harm, but I don't think it would be much benefit either. This 
site is about a year old, and we took the view that ARIA was not sufficiently 
well supported to be worth using. More importantly, users typically have no 
idea what it is when they encounter it, so it will be years before ARIA 
provides any real benefit. Besides, it was difficult enough to get the 
developers to make the website WCAG-compliant, never mind introducing new 
concepts they don't understand.

Steve


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Thierry Koblentz
Sent: 22 January 2011 17:48
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] Accessible modal windows / lightboxes

Hi Steve,

> Yes, here's one we worked on -
http://htmltools.moneymadeclear.org.uk/mortgage-calculator/index.aspx
 
What about using role="alertdialog" on that container?

http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#chobet


--
Regards,
Thierry
@thierrykoblentz
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | www.css-101.org 





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] Accessible modal windows / lightboxes

[Steve Green]

I just tested it in exactly the same operating system and browser, and
it works fine.  The fact that you are seeing the 'Skip to content' link
suggests that the focus is going to the top of the page, not into the
lightbox. That happens if JavaScript is turned off, and I can't think of
any other explanation unless the JavaScript file is not loading in your
browser for some reason.

 

With regard to Birendra's comment, the lightbox has not been made modal,
although it could be with a bit more JavaScript. If you tab beyond the
end of the lightbox, the focus will go into the page behind it. All you
need to do is Shift+Tab to tab backwards into the lightbox.
Alternatively, if you press the tab key enough times the focus will
eventually return to the lightbox.

 

Steve

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of tee
Sent: 22 January 2011 10:06
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible modal windows / lightboxes

 

In case you want to investigate further with your developer, my system
is OS X 10.6, FF 3.6.13.

 

I don't have status bar enabled by default; with it enabled, I found
part of the cause, but the result is still inconsistent.

 

At one attempt, the first tab shows nothing from status bar, and the
second tab shows the hidden "skip to content" got focused.   Emptied
history, tried again, it showed the same as previously mentioned.

 

 

tee

 

 

 

On Jan 21, 2011, at 8:40 PM, Birendra wrote:





Hi Steve

 

Yes it's working fine here but I face one problem,  


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] Accessible modal windows / lightboxes

[Steve Green]

Yes, it was tested in all browsers and I just tested it again in Firefox
on Windows and Mac - it works ok for me. What is not working for you?
 
I don't understand your point about the placement of the Close button,
but I agree that the focus indication should be clearer - we asked for
that but it didn't get implemented.
 
Steve



From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of tee
Sent: 21 January 2011 04:21
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible modal windows / lightboxes



On Jan 20, 2011, at 4:44 AM, Steve Green wrote:


Yes, here's one we worked on -
http://htmltools.moneymadeclear.org.uk/mortgage-calculator/index.aspx
 


Have you tested it on Firefox? It doesn't seem to allow keyboard support
for the modal window. 

Also, a usability glitch IMHO, the close button should be placed in the
last keyboard control, reason is that, if the content in the modal
window is intended for reading and there are links within it that
depends on keyboard control, you won't want users to close the window
before they even have a chance to tab through the content. Having the
close button placed in the last keyboard control prevents users to close
it - once you hit the "Get Started" (if you miss the enter key (the
focus is not as obvious despite the outlined) when you are at the
button) it doesn't allow you to go through the tab again to close the
window.

tee

***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] Accessible modal windows / lightboxes

[Steve Green]

Yes, here's one we worked on -
http://htmltools.moneymadeclear.org.uk/mortgage-calculator/index.aspx
 
The problem with most lightboxes is that the position of the focus is
not controlled correctly. Typically the user has to tab through all the
page content to get to the lightbox content because it has been inserted
at the end of the DOM. When they close the lightbox, the focus is not
returned to where they originally were on the page.
 
Both of these issues are addressed in the link above, and the result is
a seamless experience for anyone using keyboard navigation, including
screen reader users. If you give focus to one of the Help buttons and
press the Enter key, the lightbox opens and the Close button has focus.
If you close the lightbox, the focus returns to the original link. A
screen reader will read the contents of the lightbox immediately after
the Close button.
 
The only time the focus is not correctly controlled is when the
'Recommend to a friend' or 'Email results' forms are submitted. In these
cases the focus returns to the top of the page. The developers tell us
it's because they can't control the focus after an HTTP request.
 
Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd



From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of James Grant
Sent: 20 January 2011 12:14
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Accessible modal windows / lightboxes



 

Hi WSG'ers,

Does anybody have any experience with creating accessible modal windows,
aka lightboxes?

While I have seen some great lightbox experiments that do allow keyboard
control, I haven't been able to find any that will trigger a screen
reader to actually read the content within.

My project is looking to use lightboxes for field-level help which can
contain up to a few paragraphs of textual content, no unique images will
appear within the modal window. Once the modal window is open, the only
user controls will be to close the window by either selecting the
'close' option, or clicking outside of the content.

Thanks!
- Jimmy

 


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] or ?

[Steve Faulkner]

The  element is the correct element to use in the case of site navigation 
links. You are correct about menu which when implemented will be like a desktop 
app menu. 

The nav element is  not generally accessibility supported in browsers yet, 
which means it's semantics are not conveyed, but you can add an  ARIA landmark 
role to convey the meaning:



Regards
Stevef

Sent from my iPhone

On 9 Jan 2011, at 12:44, "designer"  wrote:

> Hi L&G,
> 
> I am making a site (html5) which has a  section at the top of each page. 
> Some pages will also have a 'menu' which will be a short list of links to 
> other pages in the site, and these will appear lower down in the content of 
> the page.
> 
> Instinct tells me that it is sensible to make this subset as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> blah
> blah
> blah
> 
>(where blah is a link to a page)
> 
> But lots of folk seem to say that  is only to be used for lists of 
> commands. It's not clear to me, anyway!  Is the above 'wrong'?
> 
> All advice gratefully recd.
> 
> Bob 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
> 


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] HTML5 - Marking up forms

[Steve Green]

I'm with Patrick on this one. The ,  and  elements 
provide all the semantic structure you need. Anything else is noise.

Steve Green
Test Partners Ltd

 

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Eric Taylor
Sent: 10 November 2010 17:30
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] HTML5 - Marking up forms

Understandable; however, with the change in HTML5 from Definition Lists to 
Description lists, would it not be more semantically valuable to mark forms up 
using  and , for labels and inputs, providing the document with a more 
solid structure? As stated, my concern with this is the lack of grouping per 
item, when using Description Lists.

I understand that paragraphs may be easier to handle when marking up forms and 
doing the CSS; however, is it a meaningful method of marking up forms that 
supports the forward progression of HTML5 and front-end development in general?

This is the main reason I'm torn between Description lists and 
Unordered/Ordered lists. What makes most sense from a semantics view, and where 
is the balance between semantics and ease-of-use?

Eric Taylor
< Elements Aside />
http://www.elementsaside.com

On Nov 10, 2010, at 11:41 AM, "Patrick H. Lauke"  wrote:

> On 10/11/2010 17:08, Eric Taylor wrote:
>> From my experience, the best practice, currently, is using 
>> Description lists; however, my concern with this method is the lack 
>> of semantic grouping when using this set of elements.
>> 
>> Another method I have used is using an Unordered list to group each 
>> field inside of a list item. However, this doesn't seem like it makes 
>> as much sense, semantically, as the Description list.
>> 
>> What do you all think, and how do you go about marking up your forms 
>> in HTML5?
> 
> HTML5 does not add any new semantics or constructs to mark up the structure 
> of forms, it only adds new types, a few features (autofocus for instance) and 
> validation functionality.
> 
> How you actually structure the lot is still as before (and there are 
> still likely heated arguments over which way is good or 
> not...personally, I just use paragraphs, as the extra structure of 
> lists is just overkill in my opinion)
> 
> P
> --
> Patrick H. Lauke
> __
> re\xAD\xF4dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : 
> re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
> 
> www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk 
> http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ 
> __
> twitter: @patrick_h_lauke | skype: patrick_h_lauke 
> __
> 
> 
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
> 


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] Google 'X-ray' banner

[Steve Green]

It's just an animated GIF.


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of Grant Bailey
Sent: 08 November 2010 12:14
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Google 'X-ray' banner

Hello,

Does anyone know how Google did their 'X-ray' banner that appeared
today? (See
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/8116827/X-rays-150th-annive
rsary-celebrated-with-Google-Doodle.html if the banner has been
replaced.) It glows and fades. This is not Flash, so I'd love to know
how they did it. Does anyone know? Is it an animated Gif, or some HTML5
trick?

Thank you,

Grant Bailey




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] Where are we with Frames?

[Steve Green]

They are both 'frames' but  they are not the same. It's rare that you
need to use a frameset, but there's no reason why you shouldn't.
Well-designed framesets have performed well in all the user testing we
have done, and I would probably go as far as to say they have worked
better than JavaScript-based designs. I'm talking about disabled users
with assistive technology here, not 'regular' users.

iFrames have a fundamental problem that they have fixed dimensions, so
increasing the text size results in truncation of the contents. A lot of
third-party content providers address this by using fixed font sizes,
which just introduces a different problem.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of tee
Sent: 26 October 2010 03:00
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Where are we with Frames?

Are  Frameset and iFrame the same thing that often get called as
'frames'?

When I think of frameset, I think of this.
http://cssremix.com/visit/when-it-drops/

When I think of iFrame, i think of a chunk of javascript that client
asks to embed to his/her site, e.g., Google Map, Google Calendar or
Payment badge. I don't have issue using iFrame at all, and just checked,
HTML5 doesn't make it obsolete.

tee


On Oct 25, 2010, at 6:37 PM, Stuart Shearing wrote:

> I agree, traditional frameset layouts should be buried somewhere
alongside , however I have no issue with iframes and I suspect
we're going to see a lot more of them based on articles like this one -
> 
>
http://apiblog.youtube.com/2010/07/new-way-to-embed-youtube-videos.html
> 
> Stuart
> 
>> 
> 
> 
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
> 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] Accessibility Testing

[Steve Green]

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Lesley Lutomski
Sent: 22 October 2010 14:49
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Accessibility Testing

On 20/10/10 21:13, Nick Stone wrote:

 > Does anyone have suggestions on how to obtain website usability feedback  > 
 > from various members of the disabled community?


Kevin Ireson replied with some helpful comments, but I think Nick's main point 
was that there is no substitute for testing by real people with real 
disabilities and that can be very hard to achieve.  I can try to make my sites 
accessible to someone using a screen reader, for example, but as I don't use 
one myself I'm only guessing at how a real user would approach the site.  
Accessibility testing software is helpful, but doesn't test for all types of 
disability.

For example, there are a wide range of conditions that result in impaired 
movement, including things as common as arthritis.  These can make using mouse 
and keyboard both quite difficult.  With this in mind, might I suggest you 
visit http://amnestyshop.org.uk/christmas-2010.html
and see if you find any potential problems.  Would your normal accessibility 
testing have thrown up these issues, or not?  (I apologise for picking on 
Amnesty; it has the most extreme version I know of a common problem.)

I do know of one organisation that arranges site testing by disabled people, 
but their charges are beyond the budget of any of my clients. 
Any ideas, anyone?

Thank you.

Lesley

---

Since you ask, we arrange user testing with disabled participants and assistive 
technologies. It's not cheap but we are more cost-effective than the larger 
organisations such as RNIB, Shaw Trust and AbilityNet.

An intermediate option is an expert review by a consultant with experience of 
user testing, and we do this when time and/or budget are limited. Obviously it 
doesn't pick up all the issues that user testing does, but it's a fraction of 
the cost and it picks up enough issues to be worthwhile.

We also provide screen reader training for developers and testers who want an 
insight into how people use screen readers. This course teaches enough to do 
some basic  testing and provides a lot of guidelines for accessible design 
(beyond compliance with WCAG).

If even this is not affordable, there's no reason why you can't arrange your 
own user testing. At first it takes a bit of work to find participants, and you 
will have to pay them an incentive (typically £20 to £30 per hour plus travel). 
In most cases you can do the testing in people's homes, so you don't need any 
equipment or software. You will need to read up on how to run user tests to get 
the best results, but it's not rocket science and there is lots of guidance on 
the web. There are quite a few disability support groups who will help you find 
participants, but be aware that those who offer a testing service (such as the 
three I mentioned above) tend not to be cooperative.

Steve Green
Managing Director
Test Partners Ltd


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] Image Maps

[Steve Green]

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]
On Behalf Of Christian Montoya
Sent: 14 October 2010 18:56
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Image Maps

On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Tom Livingston 
wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 12:52 PM, David Dorward 
wrote:
>>
>> On 14 Oct 2010, at 17:27, Tom Livingston wrote:
>>
>>> Are image maps still ok?
>>
>> Still?
>>
>> Server side image maps are as inaccessible as ever.
>>
>> Client side image maps had issues last time I looked at them, but
things might have improved since then.
>>
>> http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/mapalt.html is an (oldish)
resource which describes some of the issues and ways to work around
them.
>>
>> --
>> David Dorward
>> http://dorward.me.uk
>>
>
> When I say "ok" I mean "as OK as they can be". And the question may 
> have been better as "Does anyone still use image maps?"
>
> Anyway, thanks for the link.

Bandcamp is an indie-artist music store service that allows you to
design your own storefront, but if you want to link to other sites from
your header, you have to use an image map. So yes, there are people out
there still using image maps. I'm one of them. But not by choice.

--
--
Christian Montoya
mappdev.com :: christianmontoya.net



We have a client who creates e-learning courses for the public sector,
and they make extensive use of image maps. In most cases, clicking the
link causes new content to be displayed on the current page rather than
loading a new page. We keep telling them to implement the feature
differently but they persist despite all the accessibility problems it
causes.

Steve Green
Test Partners Ltd


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] Yes/No structure?

[Steve Gibbings]

Agreed it does depend entirely on the situation and users.  By universally 
implemented I wasn't being flippant, I meant to be saying that things have 
moved on, just the modified model of radio set use doesn't work everywhere.  
For some reason undefined/unset radio button sets get overlooked by users 
trying to complete a form fast than some other methods.  Personally I try to 
reword/remodel to avoid uses of yes/no answers.  If unsure run some user 
audience testing.  If they hesitate longer at a yes/no then perhaps that is 
confusing for them.

>From a html/w3C standpoint I don't have an issue of course, my view was purely 
>user experience.


On 8 Jun 2010, at 02:38, Ben Buchanan wrote:

> 
> 
> On 7 June 2010 14:58, Steve Gibbings  wrote:
> I have a problem with that.   Radio button sets should always have an option 
> selected, there is no undefined selection.  This makes sense when you 
> remember where the radio button metaphor came from. However seems that 
> doesn't get universally implemented.
> 
> Technically correct, true. Would you recommend a checkbox instead, or some 
> other option?
> 
> In practice I think the usage of radio buttons has shifted to accommodate 
> sets with no initial selection. In usability terms it's probably better than 
> a dropdown for a yes/no; and some people do have some issues with the implied 
> off state of checkboxes. Compare it with a paper form where you have two 
> boxes and you tick or cross an option - there's no preselection. I guess it 
> depends which paradigm is more likely to fit the scenario.
> 
> cheers,
> Ben
> 
> 
> -- 
> --- <http://weblog.200ok.com.au/>
> --- The future has arrived; it's just not 
> --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
> 
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] Yes/No structure?

[Steve Gibbings]

lol, well yes but then that would be attempting to break the input device on  
real radios.  Funnily we must be twins because as a kid I used to try to do 
that too.  I broke so much stuff...



On 8 Jun 2010, at 05:39, Lucien Stals wrote:

> And I seem to recall that the old radios on which the metaphor is based could 
> be pushed half in. That would cause all buttons to pop out thus having *no* 
> selection. Not saying that as a justification for having no selection in a 
> radio group. Just pointing out that the metaphor wears a bit thin ;)
> 
> Lucien.
> 
> 
> On 08/06/2010, at 11:38 AM, Ben Buchanan wrote:
> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 7 June 2010 14:58, Steve Gibbings  wrote:
>> I have a problem with that.   Radio button sets should always have an option 
>> selected, there is no undefined selection.  This makes sense when you 
>> remember where the radio button metaphor came from. However seems that 
>> doesn't get universally implemented.
>> 
>> Technically correct, true. Would you recommend a checkbox instead, or some 
>> other option?
>> 
>> In practice I think the usage of radio buttons has shifted to accommodate 
>> sets with no initial selection. In usability terms it's probably better than 
>> a dropdown for a yes/no; and some people do have some issues with the 
>> implied off state of checkboxes. Compare it with a paper form where you have 
>> two boxes and you tick or cross an option - there's no preselection. I guess 
>> it depends which paradigm is more likely to fit the scenario.
>> 
>> cheers,
>> Ben
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> --- <http://weblog.200ok.com.au/>
>> --- The future has arrived; it's just not 
>> --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
>> 
>> ***
>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
>> ***
> 
> 
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] Yes/No structure?

[Steve Gibbings]

Agreed it does depend entirely on the situation and users.  By universally 
implemented I wasn't being flippant, I meant to be saying that things have 
moved on, just the modified model of radio set use doesn't work everywhere.  
For some reason undefined/unset radio button sets get overlooked by users 
trying to complete a form fast than some other methods.  Personally I try to 
reword/remodel to avoid uses of yes/no answers.  If unsure run some user 
audience testing.  If they hesitate longer at a yes/no then perhaps that is 
confusing for them.

>From a html/w3C standpoint I don't have an issue of course, my view was purely 
>user experience.

Regards,

Steve


On 8 Jun 2010, at 02:38, Ben Buchanan wrote:

> 
> 
> On 7 June 2010 14:58, Steve Gibbings  wrote:
> I have a problem with that.   Radio button sets should always have an option 
> selected, there is no undefined selection.  This makes sense when you 
> remember where the radio button metaphor came from. However seems that 
> doesn't get universally implemented.
> 
> Technically correct, true. Would you recommend a checkbox instead, or some 
> other option?
> 
> In practice I think the usage of radio buttons has shifted to accommodate 
> sets with no initial selection. In usability terms it's probably better than 
> a dropdown for a yes/no; and some people do have some issues with the implied 
> off state of checkboxes. Compare it with a paper form where you have two 
> boxes and you tick or cross an option - there's no preselection. I guess it 
> depends which paradigm is more likely to fit the scenario.
> 
> cheers,
> Ben
> 
> 
> -- 
> --- <http://weblog.200ok.com.au/>
> --- The future has arrived; it's just not 
> --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
> 
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] Yes/No structure?

[Steve Gibbings]

I have a problem with that.   Radio button sets should always have an option 
selected, there is no undefined selection.  This makes sense when you remember 
where the radio button metaphor came from. However seems that doesn't get 
universally implemented.



On 7 Jun 2010, at 02:25, Ben Buchanan wrote:

> 
> 
> On 4 June 2010 12:29, nedlud  wrote:
> I have a web form I'm building and there is a simple yes/no question in it.
> I got to wondering what the best semantic  mark up for this is? Does anyone 
> have any good UI/UX suggestions?
> 
> My three ideas were...
> 
> Two radio buttons for "yes" and "no"...
> Do you...?
> Yes
> No
> 
> I go back to the fact radio buttons show mutually-exclusive options, which 
> makes a very clear yes/no. If your question needs the user to actively 
> specify a yes or no, it's a good solution. Checkboxes mean one response is 
> given by omission, which is a less definitive interaction.
> 
> Since radio buttons are one element short on their own, you need to wrap them 
> in a fieldset and legend to essentially act like a label for the set of radio 
> buttons. I also think the button should be on the left and the text on the 
> right (in left-to-right languages), since a) that just seems the most common 
> thing, and b) if you were to add a couple of divs to create rows, the buttons 
> would line up neatly above each other. 
> 
> Which gives us...
> 
> Do you...?
> Yes
> No
> 
> 
> 
> Hope that helps...
> 
> cheers,
> 
> Ben
> 
> 
> -- 
> --- 
> --- The future has arrived; it's just not 
> --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
> 
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] Podlena, Stephen is out of the office.

[Steve Gibbings]

Please people set your email auto responses to not respond to email groups.  
You should be able to add addresses to ignore.

Thanks.

On 5 Jun 2010, at 00:11, spodl...@bayside.vic.gov.au wrote:

> I will be out of the office starting 05/06/2010 and will not return until 
> 08/06/2010.
> 
> I will respond to your message when I return.
> 
> 
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] Testing on Windows 7

[Steve Gibbings]

Correction I meant "would NOT expect any material differences..."

You're very welcome Peter.

Steve Gibbings
Web designer & Developer
www.stevegibbingsdesign.co.uk

On 11/04/2010 10:46, Peter Mount wrote:

Thanks for that

Have a good day.

--
Peter Mount
i...@petermount.com

On 11/04/2010, at 7:34 PM, st...@stevegibbings.co.uk wrote:

   

Well I am not exactly saying that as I would test ie6&  ie7 on XP and ie8 on 
windows 7.

It really depends on your clients, the site etc. But I really would expect any 
material differences between the same non-ie browser and version on XP and 
windows 7.

Maybe schedule some brief testing until you feel confident? You will need to 
use XP for ie6 and ie7 testing anyway.

Hope this helps.

Steve

Sent from my iPhone

On 11 Apr 2010, at 10:11, Peter Mount  wrote:

 

Hi

I just want to know if there is a need to test in both Windows XP and Windows 7 
i.e. if there is a need to schedule additional OS version testing.

I take it from your reply it's good enough just to test in Windows 7, without 
testing in Windows XP as well.

Thanks

--
Peter Mount
i...@petermount.com

On 11/04/2010, at 6:54 PM, st...@stevegibbings.co.uk wrote:

   

I haven't noticed anything in firefox or chrome when the same version is used. 
Nothing big enough to make me wonder if a client would try to suggest it was a 
bug in the site. Of course this is somewhat immaterial as you wouldn't be able 
to solve anything caused by OS version subtle differences and I would say there 
will be more obvious differences between Windows, Mac and Linux.

I gave up long ago trying to make sites photographically identical across 
browsers let alone OS.

Are you asking in case you need to schedule additional OS version testing?

Steve Gibbings
Web designer&  Developer
www.stevegibbingsdesign.co.uk

Sent from my iPhone

On 11 Apr 2010, at 09:28, Peter Mount  wrote:

 

Hi

I'm just asking in general. I just want do know if there's any difference in 
any of the currently used web browsers.

Thanks

--
Peter Mount
i...@petermount.com

On 11/04/2010, at 6:06 PM, st...@stevegibbings.co.uk wrote:

   

I have windows 7 and XP running on VMWare player. What browser and version are 
we talking about and do you have a site that exhibits a difference?  I can take 
a look and let you know.

Steve Gibbings
Web designer&  Developer
www.stevegibbingsdesign.co.uk



Sent from my iPhone

On 11 Apr 2010, at 07:05, Peter Mount  wrote:

 

Hi

Has anybody noticed differences in web browser testing on Windows 7 compared to 
Windows XP? Or do web sites show up the same on Windows 7 as they would on 
Windows XP?

Thanks

--
Peter Mount
i...@petermount.com



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

   




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

   




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

   




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/joi

[WSG] Unsubscribing

[Steve Baty]

Sorry, but this is now out of control.


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] google chrome frame

[Steve Green]

In our large-ish corporate environment we're stuck with IE6 as our default
probably for another year :(

While we know that people have installed newer browsers——IE7 is authorised,
but not the default--we still can't stop supporting IE6.



One of the UK high street banks who has tens of thousands of users recently
advised me that they will be retaining IE6 as the default browser until 2014
due to the huge amount of work required to fix the large number of bespoke
applications they use. Staff can ask for special dispensation to get IE7
installed but if you've ever tried to get a corporate IT department to do
anything you'll understand that very few people will bother asking.

I think that techies forget the concerns that ordinary people have about
technology. Older users in particular are often reluctant to install or
change anything because they don't know what they can trust and they are
scared something will break. Unlike us, they don't have the knowledge or
facilities to fix anything that goes wrong.

I suspect that the kind of websites that ordinary people use will still be
seeing significant IE6 traffic (probably in excess of 10%) for a couple more
years. The stats for techie sites will be very different, so a decision on
whether to support IE6 will depend on the demographics of the visitors.

FWIW, one of my team was in Bangalore over Christmas and had to use an
Internet café. The machines were running Windows 98! So let's not forget
that some parts of the world cannot afford to upgrade as fast as we can.

Steve Green

 




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] Complex data tables, accessibility and XHTML Basic 1.1

[Steve Green]

 

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Kat
Sent: 02 November 2009 01:35
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Complex data tables, accessibility and XHTML Basic 1.1

Steve Green wrote:
> I am tempted to say that this is a moot point. In my experience 
> complex data tables are inaccessible to screen reader users because 
> they have great difficulty forming a mental model of them. Marking 
> them up perfectly semantically doesn't help.
> 
> If you use 'normal' means of navigating, the table cell contents are 
> read sequentially. Each cell is usually understandable but you get no 
> sense of the structure and relationships with the column and row headings.
> 
> If you use the table navigation commands, the column and/or row 
> headers are read in addition to the cell contents. This provides 
> structural information but the user has to mentally separate the 
> header and cell data before adding them to their mental model. This is 
> difficult enough with simple tables but I don't recall even highly 
> proficient screen reader users successfully navigating complex tables
during user testing.
> 
> What I can't say is whether any other user group derives any benefit 
> from the correct semantic markup of tables. Off the top of my head I 
> can't think of any. I also cannot think of any applications (e.g. 
> search engines, news scrapers etc) that programmatically access 
> websites that would benefit from this either.
> 

Thanks for that Steve! :)

Then would the answer, perhaps, be to give a small succinct paragraph about
the tabular data, with the most important points (if they exist), and
perhaps a link to contact details if the user wanted to know more? 
And not worry about thead, tfoot, tbody, col, colgroup, etc? Would that be
an acceptable accessibility alternative?

Kat


It depends on what your objectives are. Many of my clients have a
contractual obligation to meet the letter of the WCAG, in which case using
the correct semantics meets their objectives even though it results in a
poor user experience. The same would be the case if you were concerned about
the tables being programmatic accessible.

If your objective is legal compliance, providing the information by
alternative means is certainly an option, and the provision of contact
details may well be sufficient depending on the prevailing legal
environment. You would need to put in place a procedure to deal with
requests for help, and there would likely be a cost - might it just be
cheaper to fix the tables?

If your objective is a good user experience, don't use complex tables.

Steve



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] Complex data tables, accessibility and XHTML Basic 1.1

[Steve Green]

I am tempted to say that this is a moot point. In my experience complex data
tables are inaccessible to screen reader users because they have great
difficulty forming a mental model of them. Marking them up perfectly
semantically doesn't help.

If you use 'normal' means of navigating, the table cell contents are read
sequentially. Each cell is usually understandable but you get no sense of
the structure and relationships with the column and row headings.

If you use the table navigation commands, the column and/or row headers are
read in addition to the cell contents. This provides structural information
but the user has to mentally separate the header and cell data before adding
them to their mental model. This is difficult enough with simple tables but
I don't recall even highly proficient screen reader users successfully
navigating complex tables during user testing.

What I can't say is whether any other user group derives any benefit from
the correct semantic markup of tables. Off the top of my head I can't think
of any. I also cannot think of any applications (e.g. search engines, news
scrapers etc) that programmatically access websites that would benefit from
this either.
 
Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Kat
Sent: 02 November 2009 00:19
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Complex data tables, accessibility and XHTML Basic 1.1


Gday all,

We're all agreed that tables should only be used for tabular data, and
should be marked up properly for accessibility.


*WCAG 1.0 and 2.0 links about table accessibility and specific markup*

WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 5.2 says "For data tables that have two or more 
logical levels of row or column headers, use markup to associate data 
cells and header cells. [Priority 1]"
http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT-TECHS/#tech-table-structure
http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#identifying-table-rows-columns

And in a working draft for WCAG 2.0, HTML Techniques for WCAG 2.0*, 
Section 7.5,  Identifying groups of rows: Use thead to group repeated 
table headers, tfoot for repeated table footers, and tbody for other 
groups of rows. (optional)
http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20031209/#datatables_rowgroup

Section 7.6 Identifying groups of columns: Use the colgroup and col 
elements to group columns. (optional)
http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20031209/#datatables_colgroup

Noting, that both are optional, under WCAG 2.0 (working draft).


*XHTML Basic 1.1*
Now that there are more and more handheld devices being used to access 
the web, I have been thinking that some websites might benefit from 
moving to a different markup: XHTML Basic 1.1, particularly if the 
majority of their user-base are on handheld devices. This way they can 
serve up something the majority of their audience can use and also allow 
access through a desk- or lap-top device.


*Questions*
XHTML Basic 1.1 does not include thead, tbody and tfoot, along with col 
and colgroup, which is mentioned under WCAG 1.0 and WCAG 2.0 for 
acessible complex data tables.
http://www.w3.org/2007/09/dtd-comparison.html

Can a complex table be accessible without these elements, or do we, as 
developers, accept the loss of accessibility (both on a practical and 
compliance level) on data tables with the advent of the mobile web**?

As much as I might like to support the argument that complex tables 
should never appear on mobiles, I'm not sure it's realistic. There may 
be a time when a complex table in XHTML Basic 1.1 is served up to both 
handheld, and desk- and lap- top devices. In that event, what can the 
developer do?

Kat

* Wow, that's a working draft from 2003, SIX years ago. Can that be true?

** Not my preferred option.


Is this too complex for a Monday morning?



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] skip links

[Steve Green]

Understood. I was addressing the common misconception that skip links are
only for screen reader users. Bob may have had a reason for phrasing the
question the way he did, but it probably should have been phrased
differently.

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Mark Huppert
Sent: 29 October 2009 00:19
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] skip links


Thanks for that Steve - but I was trying answer the question:
 
"Can anyone point me to the best way of providing a 'skip nav' procedure
which is invisible to sighted readers "
 

regards

Mark




  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: Thursday, 29 October 2009 11:01 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] skip links


A 1-pixel image works for screen reader users but it is no use for sighted
people who use keyboard navigation.

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Mark Huppert
Sent: 28 October 2009 23:37
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] skip links


spot the typo 
 

regards

Mark



 

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Mark Huppert
Sent: Thursday, 29 October 2009 10:34 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] skip links


Steve
 
One way to do it is make a transparent gif of 1px x 1px. Then
embed that in your link with no text. Have an ALT or a TITLE with
'skip navigation'
 

 
regards

Mark


Mark Huppert
Library Systems and Web Coordinator
Division of Information
R.G. Menzies Building (#2)
The Australian National University
ACTON ACT 0200

T: +61 02 6125 2752
F: +61 02 6125 4063
W: http://anulib.anu.edu.au/about/

CRICOS Provider #00120C


 

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: Thursday, 29 October 2009 12:52 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] skip links


I always point people to http://blackwidows.co.uk/. The links are accessible
to screen readers and are displayed when they have focus so they are
accessible to sighted users who use keyboard navigation.

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of designer
Sent: 28 October 2009 13:37
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] skip links


Can anyone point me to the best way of providing a 'skip nav' procedure
which is invisible to sighted readers but is picked up by screen readers?
It seems a can of worms - I've searched and read about it, but (of course)
it is impossible to find out which way is recommended by real world web
designers who have actually used a bullet-proof approach.
 
I'd be really grateful . . .
 
Thanks,
 
Bob



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] skip links

[Steve Green]

A 1-pixel image works for screen reader users but it is no use for sighted
people who use keyboard navigation.

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Mark Huppert
Sent: 28 October 2009 23:37
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] skip links


spot the typo 
 

regards

Mark



 

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Mark Huppert
Sent: Thursday, 29 October 2009 10:34 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] skip links


Steve
 
One way to do it is make a transparent gif of 1px x 1px. Then
embed that in your link with no text. Have an ALT or a TITLE with
'skip navigation'
 

 
regards

Mark


Mark Huppert
Library Systems and Web Coordinator
Division of Information
R.G. Menzies Building (#2)
The Australian National University
ACTON ACT 0200

T: +61 02 6125 2752
F: +61 02 6125 4063
W: http://anulib.anu.edu.au/about/

CRICOS Provider #00120C


 

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Steve Green
Sent: Thursday, 29 October 2009 12:52 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] skip links


I always point people to http://blackwidows.co.uk/. The links are accessible
to screen readers and are displayed when they have focus so they are
accessible to sighted users who use keyboard navigation.

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of designer
Sent: 28 October 2009 13:37
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] skip links


Can anyone point me to the best way of providing a 'skip nav' procedure
which is invisible to sighted readers but is picked up by screen readers?
It seems a can of worms - I've searched and read about it, but (of course)
it is impossible to find out which way is recommended by real world web
designers who have actually used a bullet-proof approach.
 
I'd be really grateful . . .
 
Thanks,
 
Bob



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] skip links

[Steve Green]

I always point people to http://blackwidows.co.uk/. The links are accessible
to screen readers and are displayed when they have focus so they are
accessible to sighted users who use keyboard navigation.

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of designer
Sent: 28 October 2009 13:37
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] skip links


Can anyone point me to the best way of providing a 'skip nav' procedure
which is invisible to sighted readers but is picked up by screen readers?
It seems a can of worms - I've searched and read about it, but (of course)
it is impossible to find out which way is recommended by real world web
designers who have actually used a bullet-proof approach.
 
I'd be really grateful . . .
 
Thanks,
 
Bob



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] Accessible Image Map Editors

[Steve Green]

It may seem strange, but image maps are more accessible to screen reader
users than to almost any other user group. They are a significant barrier to
some user groups even when correctly coded, so you should provide the
information in an alternative, accessible manner.

For your class exercise you need to do the following to make the map
accessible to screen reader users:
1. Provide an 'alt' attribute for the main image.
2. Provide 'alt' attributes for each of the areas in the map.


 

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Marvin Hunkin
Sent: 25 October 2009 12:36
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Accessible Image Map Editors

hi.
is image map accessible with jaws?
i need to create a image map for a web page i am developing for one of my
online programming classes with http://www.johnsmiley.com any
recommendations would be appreciated.
cheers Marvin. 




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] dl as paragraph?

[Steve Green]

Hi everyone.

I was just looking at a page on the National Library of Australia web site
(http://www.nla.gov.au/services/issnabout.html) and noticed the font
rendering was strange in my browser (Firefox 3.5.3). When I looked at the
markup to try and understand why, I found that the site seem to be marked up
using definition lists for paragraphs. 

I don't want to jump to conclusions, so can anyone suggest a legitimate
reason for doing this?

Each paragraph seems to be a new list (not a new list *item*. A whole new
list). And the text is in a dd tag with no dt.

The strange font rendering (in FF at least) seems to be caused by the font
(Myriad Pro) being rendered at %90. Changing either the font size of face
appears to fix it. 
 
---
 
Nope - it's so stupid as to barely warrant discussion.


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] accessibility: government

[Steve Green]

It's not that simple. We are working with some UK Government departments
that still use WCAG 1.0 and will continue to do so until well into 2010.
Other departments have already adopted WCAG 2.0.
 
To answer the question, I do not believe such a list exists, and it would
require continuous maintenance as governments switch at varying speeds from
WCAG 1.0 to 2.0. This transition may take even longer in cases such as the
US who have created their own accessibility requirements based on (but not
the same as) the WCAG.
 
Why do you want to know this information?
 
Steve

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Rae Buerckner
Sent: 26 August 2009 23:25
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] accessibility: government


As a general rule of thumb best practice would be to follow W3C guidelines.

Cheers,

Rae


2009/8/27 Webb, KerryA 


>
> On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 4:40 AM, Luc wrote:
> > Good afternoon list,
> >
> > Does anybody know if their exists a list of what is required in terms of
> accessibility
> > features for each country (governments)?
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Regards,
> >  Luc
>
> Hi Luc,
>
> here in Australia we have a couple of pieces of legislation, the main
> one being the Disability Discrimination Act - there is a guide to it
> at http://hreoc.gov.au/disability_rights/dda_guide/dda_guide.htm
> There are some Better Practice Guidelines that touch on a lot of
> accessibility issues (amongst others) at
> http://www.finance.gov.au/e-government/better-practice-and-
> collaboration/better-practice-checklists/index.html
>
> Others may wish to add to the list above.
>

To add to Andrew's response, it's not clear if you're asking for general
requirements legislated by governments (of all sites) or just for the
requirements for government websites.

In either case, many countries have multiple levels of government (national,
state/province, local) and each level can have its own rules.

Kerry
(which I work for a state/local govt, and that makes it even more exciting)

---
This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If
you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all
copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You
should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any
other person.
---


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***






-- 
---
Rae Buerckner
E: rae.buerck...@gmail.com
M: +61 404 675 028
W: http://www.raebuerckner.com

ACT Adobe Products User Group Manager
http://groups.adobe.com/groups/8980662cdb/summary

***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] Accessible Forms

[Steve Green]

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Tom Livingston
Sent: 19 August 2009 20:10
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible Forms

The reason I use this was because I found an easy way to style forms that
included the broader compatibility for the clickability of labels for focus
with the flexibility of layout with the inclusion of a span
like:


First Name



I use this a lot for putting the label text next to the input, instead of
stacking, and it gives easy control of this layout.

Any info on the wrapping of inputs in a label being bad would be
appreciated.



We recently tested this exact construction (with the appropriate 'id'
attribute in the  element) and got surprising results with JAWS. It
does not associate the text label with the form control even though they are
associated in two ways (the 'for' and 'id' attributes and the fact that they
are enclosed in the  element.

JAWS does associate the text label and form control if the  element is
not present but that limits your styling options. I have no idea why JAWS
behaves this way.

Steve Green
Director
Test Partners Ltd



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

[WSG] Form question

[steve . haffenden]

Hi.

Apologies if I'm bringing up previously dug over ground or if I'm missing  
something so utterly obvious that coffee is about to be spluttered all over  
your expansive monitors but...


Can anyone tell me why the HTML specification does not restrict form  
elements from appearing outside of the form tag?


Thanks

Steve Haffenden


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] Ecomm using Paypal

[Steve Eagleson]

>From the PayPal site at
https://cms.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/?cmd=_render-content&content_ID=developer/
e_howto_html_Appx_websitestandard_htmlvariables#id08A6HH0D0TA

no_shipping is an optional attribute, which deals with shipping addresses.
Allowable values are:

0 - prompt for an address, but do not require one
1 - do not prompt for an address
2 - prompt for an address, and require one

The default is 0.



-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Nick Lo
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 10:36 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Ecomm using Paypal

> I am working on a very bad implementation of a site. My job is to
> improve it for the timebeing, while we are developing a new standard
> site. Now the issue is with the payment system with the Paypal. I need
> to put in shipping cost for the products bought from here..
>
http://www.netcomm.com.au/products/voip/v35?SQ_PAINT_LAYOUT_NAME=runout&SQ_D
ESIGN_NAME=runout
>
> the hidden value says  name="no_shipping"/>,
>
> where can i find the right list of the attributes.. as i did try
>  but didnt work.

Sounds like you sent this to the wrong mailing list? It doesn't sound  
like a web standards related question.

Cheers,

Nick


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] Ecomm using Paypal

[Steve Eagleson]

The site appears to have been generated from a package or template. I'm
guessing that this was MySource Matrix, but I don't see any info on PayPal
integration on their site. Do you have the original application or
documentation? If so, you might contact them or PayPal.   

As this is for no_shipping, have you tried putting in value="0"?


-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Nick Lo
Sent: Sunday, June 21, 2009 10:36 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Ecomm using Paypal

> I am working on a very bad implementation of a site. My job is to
> improve it for the timebeing, while we are developing a new standard
> site. Now the issue is with the payment system with the Paypal. I need
> to put in shipping cost for the products bought from here..
>
http://www.netcomm.com.au/products/voip/v35?SQ_PAINT_LAYOUT_NAME=runout&SQ_D
ESIGN_NAME=runout
>
> the hidden value says  name="no_shipping"/>,
>
> where can i find the right list of the attributes.. as i did try
>  but didnt work.

Sounds like you sent this to the wrong mailing list? It doesn't sound  
like a web standards related question.

Cheers,

Nick


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] fonts problems

[Steve Eagleson]

Marvin, 

 

OK, so Insert-F appears to be a JAWS command for SAY FONT, and should say the 
font name at the cursor out loud. Apparently it could not resolve the name 
given the stylesheet error that I pointed out previously. Did fixing the 
font-family tag fix the JAWS problem?

 

 

 

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Steve Eagleson
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 2:23 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] fonts problems

 

With the exception of the missing graphics, everything looks OK to me in IE8. 
Like Matijs, I’m not sure what “insert f” means. Are you trying to edit your 
style sheet?

 

Oh wait, I found a problem. You forgot to fold the eggs back in to your 
vegetable fried rice 

 

 

 

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Matijs
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 11:28 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] fonts problems

 

Could you provide us with a little more information? Perhaps a snippet from the 
HTML file where you include the style sheet and a snippet from the style sheet 
where you're setting the font?

 

We can probably help you out from there. I'm not totally sure what you mean by 
"insert f"

 

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 7:00 AM, Marvin Hunkin  wrote:

hi.
just opened a web project i did about 18 months for one of my web design
courses and changes the content on one page.
got a style sheet called Joes_Style.css in a folder called Styles.
but when i do a insert f it does not say the font, just the font size and
the alignment.
using internet explorer 8.
have i got my style sheet placement in the wrong place.
or is this the default for internet explorer 8.
please help me out.
real weird.
cheers Marvin.
ps: the fonts i used are verdana, which i have, arial, sans-serif, helvitica
.
but have not got those fonts except for verdana, but not showing up in the
fonts on my machine.
where can i get the other fonts?
E-Mail: startrekc...@gmail.com
 Msn: startrekc...@msn.com
 Skype: startrekcafe
Visit my Jaws Australia Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/JawsOz/




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

 


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] fonts problems

[Steve Eagleson]

Oops I replied too soon; there are a couple of errors in your stylesheet. 

 

In the body section, line 7, the font-family tag should read: 

 

font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;

 

You left the dash out of the san-serif. I’m not sure if the font order matters. 
These fonts should be on your computer, unless they have removed them in Vista. 
Anybody using Vista that can verify this?

 

There is also an invalid color code in the a:visited section, line 21. Should 
be six characters, not five.

 

Hope this helps

 

 

 

 

 

From: Steve Eagleson [mailto:zen27...@zen.co.uk] 
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 2:23 PM
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: RE: [WSG] fonts problems

 

With the exception of the missing graphics, everything looks OK to me in IE8. 
Like Matijs, I’m not sure what “insert f” means. Are you trying to edit your 
style sheet?

 

Oh wait, I found a problem. You forgot to fold the eggs back in to your 
vegetable fried rice 

 

 

 

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Matijs
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 11:28 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] fonts problems

 

Could you provide us with a little more information? Perhaps a snippet from the 
HTML file where you include the style sheet and a snippet from the style sheet 
where you're setting the font?

 

We can probably help you out from there. I'm not totally sure what you mean by 
"insert f"

 

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 7:00 AM, Marvin Hunkin  wrote:

hi.
just opened a web project i did about 18 months for one of my web design
courses and changes the content on one page.
got a style sheet called Joes_Style.css in a folder called Styles.
but when i do a insert f it does not say the font, just the font size and
the alignment.
using internet explorer 8.
have i got my style sheet placement in the wrong place.
or is this the default for internet explorer 8.
please help me out.
real weird.
cheers Marvin.
ps: the fonts i used are verdana, which i have, arial, sans-serif, helvitica
.
but have not got those fonts except for verdana, but not showing up in the
fonts on my machine.
where can i get the other fonts?
E-Mail: startrekc...@gmail.com
 Msn: startrekc...@msn.com
 Skype: startrekcafe
Visit my Jaws Australia Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/JawsOz/




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

 


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] fonts problems

[Steve Eagleson]

With the exception of the missing graphics, everything looks OK to me in IE8. 
Like Matijs, I’m not sure what “insert f” means. Are you trying to edit your 
style sheet?

 

Oh wait, I found a problem. You forgot to fold the eggs back in to your 
vegetable fried rice 

 

 

 

 

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On 
Behalf Of Matijs
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2009 11:28 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] fonts problems

 

Could you provide us with a little more information? Perhaps a snippet from the 
HTML file where you include the style sheet and a snippet from the style sheet 
where you're setting the font?

 

We can probably help you out from there. I'm not totally sure what you mean by 
"insert f"

 

On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 7:00 AM, Marvin Hunkin  wrote:

hi.
just opened a web project i did about 18 months for one of my web design
courses and changes the content on one page.
got a style sheet called Joes_Style.css in a folder called Styles.
but when i do a insert f it does not say the font, just the font size and
the alignment.
using internet explorer 8.
have i got my style sheet placement in the wrong place.
or is this the default for internet explorer 8.
please help me out.
real weird.
cheers Marvin.
ps: the fonts i used are verdana, which i have, arial, sans-serif, helvitica
.
but have not got those fonts except for verdana, but not showing up in the
fonts on my machine.
where can i get the other fonts?
E-Mail: startrekc...@gmail.com
 Msn: startrekc...@msn.com
 Skype: startrekcafe
Visit my Jaws Australia Group at http://groups.yahoo.com/groups/JawsOz/




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

 


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.

[Steve Green]

Actually he won't see a bug free site at all. Correcting the doctype and
other issues makes no difference.

The bug does not occur in Internet Explorer 6. Something like this has been
reported previously but the only references I can find are not directly
applicable to this situation.

http://foorider.blogspot.com/2007/09/css-ie7-float-italic-background.html

http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/italicbug-ie.html

Steve


  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Essential eBiz Solutions
Sent: 04 June 2009 02:57
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.


Joe is right, you got alot of tags unclosed and you're switch from HTML to
XHTML style tags. Pick one, and use the validator!
You'll see a pretty much bug free site in no time.

  _  

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Joseph Taylor
Sent: 04 June 2009 02:38
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] The weirdest IE bug I've ever encountered.


I took a look at your source code - there are a whole bunch of issues
beginning with oddities in your HTML - things like:

http://www.w3c.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/loose.dtd";
<http://www.w3c.org/TR/1999/REC-html401-19991224/loose.dtd> >
http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml";
<http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml> >

Your saying the DocType is HTML 4.01 Transitional, but then you're linking
to the XHTML namespace - that's probably confusing IE right from the get go.
Using Transitional DocTypes also pisses IE off.



Weird spacees in your tags? That's begging for IE weirdness.

Try starting with perfect HTML that's of the Strict DocType whether it's
HTML or XHTML. 


Joseph R. B. Taylor
Designer / Developer
--
Sites by Joe, LLC
"Clean, Simple and Elegant Web Design"
Phone: (609) 335-3076
Web: http://sitesbyjoe.com
Email: j...@sitesbyjoe.com


On 6/3/09 9:14 PM, Breton Slivka wrote: 

I have a stripped down example of it here. The bug only occurs in IE

7, and possibly ie6, and it occurs in IE8 running in compatibility

mode. I cannot be sure whether it happens in IE8 in IE8 mode or not.

(MS have made the compatibility mode interface so bloody complex I

can't figure out whether I'm in it or not at any given time).



The example is here:



http://zenpsycho.com/iebug.htm



On that page, you will see an italic letter v on the left hand side of

the screen, and a "view cart" link on the right hand side which is NOT

clickable, but which should be clickable.



The ingredients of this bug appear to be:

* a left floated element followed by

* an italic styled element nested directly inside a p tag, which are

both preceded by

* a "menu" with links that are floated to the right



Combine these things together, and the right hand side of the screen

becomes unclickable. (you can have a huge column of links on the right

hand side, and they're all useless). What really bothers me about this

one, is that the spell is mysteriously broken (the bug goes away) if

you change this:



v 



to this:



v  



Just what on earth is going on here?





***

List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm

Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm

Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org

***



  


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.52/2152 - Release Date: 06/03/09
05:53:00



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
*** 


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] Image Replacement and Accessabilty

[Steve Green]

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org]on
Behalf Of Christopher Kennon
Sent: 15 April 2009 01:40
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Image Replacement and Accessabilty


Hi All,

The text indent CSS property can render an h# element inaccessible to
screen readers. Other than using an img element and alt attribute,
what image replacement techniques are also accessible?


h#{

text-indent: -px;

}

Chris


--

There are lots of image replacement techniques but none of them is
accessible to all user groups. It's a case of selecting the least worst, or
preferably not using image replacement at all.

Typical problems are that the images do not scale if the text size is
changed, you cannot change the colour of the text or background, nothing is
displayed if images are turned off but styles are enabled etc etc.

Techniques such as sIFR or FLIR address some of these issues but none of
them address all the issues, so every technique will be inaccessible to some
people.

Steve



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

[Steve Green]

 

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Stuart Foulstone
Sent: 25 March 2009 16:19
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?


This list is aware of many "marketing practices" that are against Web
Standards.

--

Is this list interested in discussing how to balance the conflicting
requirements of various stakeholders (including marketers) or does it take
the dogmatic position that compliance with web stardards trumps everything
else?

Steve



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

[Steve Green]

From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Andrew Maben
Sent: 25 March 2009 15:18
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] add to favorites?


On Mar 25, 2009, at 10:10 AM, Steve Green wrote:


It's not just replicating browser functionality - it's a call to
action.


But the action you're calling for is indeed a replication of browser
functionality. Calling something by another name does not change what it is.

So previously stated arguments against doing it still stand.


Andrew Maben

www.andrewmaben.net
and...@andrewmaben.com

--
 

It makes no sense to me that you would provide a call to action and then not
provide a means for the user to perform that action when it is so easy to do
so. That will inevitably result in fewer people performing the action than
would have done if you provided the means to do so. That's fine if it's your
site but you are doing your clients a disservice if you do it to theirs.

Steve



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

[Steve Green]

It's not just replicating browser functionality - it's a call to action. As
such I think it's perfectly reasonable.

Steve

 

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Patrick Lauke
Sent: 25 March 2009 13:36
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] add to favorites?

> designer
> Does anyone know of a modern, valid, reasonably cross-browser way to
provide a link on a page so that a user can add the page to favourites?
The only one I can find is IE only:

I know you're probably asking because a client insists on having it,
but...have we not evolved yet beyond replicating browser functionality
in-page? Will there also be a "make this my homepage" link?

Sorry, being a grumpy bar-stewart today...

P

Patrick H. Lauke
Web Editor
Enterprise & Development
University of Salford
Room 113, Faraday House
Salford, Greater Manchester
M5 4WT
UK

T +44 (0) 161 295 4779
webmas...@salford.ac.uk

www.salford.ac.uk

A GREATER MANCHESTER UNIVERSITY 


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] a WCAG 2.0 question

[Steve Green]

It's not just screen readers that have problems with new windows. Every user
group we have tested with has had problems.

Screen reader users sometimes do not notice that the screen reader has
announced the opening of a new window. Screen magnifier users frequently
cannot tell that a new window has opened, particularly if it is larger than
their screen, which is invariably the case at anything over 4x
magnification.

Even sighted users often do not notice. This is especially the case if a
link opens in a new tab rather than a new window.

The best practice is not to open new windows at all, regardless of what WCAG
2.0 may or may not say.

Steve

 

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Jon Gunderson
Sent: 12 March 2009 14:23
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] a WCAG 2.0 question

I think this requirement is a little out dated, screen readers today do a
good job of telling people that a new window is open.

I think the main concern is window pollution, if links are opening a lot of
"new" windows it can be difficult for people with some types of disabilities
to be aware of and find windows they are interested in.

I believe a best practice is for your web pages to use the same TARGET
attribute value so links from your page basically are updating the same
"new" window and not creating a new window for every link followed from your
website.

Jon


On Thu, Mar 12, 2009 at 1:58 AM, Glen Wallis
 wrote:
> Hello all
>
>
>
> I am interested to know whether the people on this list consider 
> opening a new window without alerting the user to be a failure to 
> conform to Success Criterion 3.2.2 of WCAG 2.0.
>
>
>
> The success criterion is as follows:
>
>
>
> 3.2.2 On Input: Changing the setting of any user interface component 
> does not automatically cause a change of context unless the user has 
> been advised of the behaviour before using the component. (Level A)
>
> The key phrases, I believe are "user interface component" and "change 
> of context". I looked up the definitions of both phrases. The glossary 
> states quite clearly that a link is a user interface component and 
> that a change of context includes opening a new window. However, the 
> document "Understanding SC 3.2.2" says
>
> "Additional Techniques (Advisory) for 3.2.2
>
> Although not required for conformance, the following additional 
> techniques should be considered in order to make content more 
> accessible. Not all techniques can be used or would be effective in all
situations.
>
> Giving users advanced warning when opening a new window. (future link)"
>
> This seems like a contradiction. The WCAG 2.0 Recommendation is the 
> only normative document, so it should take precedence over the 
> Understanding document. However, the Understanding document 
> specifically states that warning the user is not required for conformance.
>
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] macpro and softwares..

[Steve Wiles]

Hi,

I use VM ware fusion to run windows XP and then I use a tool called  
IETester from http://www.my-debugbar.com/wiki/IETester/HomePage
I find it really useful as it allows you test in IE5.5, 6, 7 and 8,  
its free. It's still a work in progress but I use it all the time.


On the mac I really like Coda from panic software an CSSEdit from  
macRabbit.
Also if you don't have it look at setting up a code repository, Coda  
works with Subversion allowing checkout and in from within the app.


I moved to the mac a year ago and don't regret it at all, with  
virtualisation you get the best of both worlds.


have fun

Steve

On 5 Mar 2009, at 18:32, Naveen Bhaskar wrote:


Hi,

I used to work in a windows system and now I am working in a macbook  
pro. how can I test my webpages for IE. Is there any IE installers  
available for mac?
Also pls let me know what are the softwares available for a UI  
developer for Mac.


thanks a ton in advance..



thanks and regards

Naveen Bhaskar
cell: +91.9740082166
Bangalore

navidesigns



Check out the all-new Messenger 9.0! Click here.
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] Link issue

[Steve Wilkison]

It's something in your CSS. If you disable the CSS the links work  
fine. Not sure what code is causing it, but I'll try to look further.


Steve Wilkison
Digital Vision Media
www.digitalvisionmedia.com



On Feb 6, 2009, at 5:53 PM, Kristine Cummins wrote:


Hi all:

I’m having a strange link issue where three links in the content  
area are not linking and the code is valid. Each link is assigned  
with a class. Either I’m having a brain fart, or something strange  
is going on. It’s probably a brain fart at this point. Any help  
appreciated.


Page with link issue: http://www.richardvonsaal.com/about.html

--Kristine




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] embedding quicktime .mov cross-platform

[Steve Green]

I don't allow QuickTime to be installed on any of our machines either. Is
there a reason why you can't use a file format that has a larger installed
user base? Most non-Mac users won't have QuickTime.

Steve

 

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of Nancy Johnson
Sent: 15 January 2009 18:58
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] embedding quicktime .mov cross-platform

Firefox 2 asked for quicktime plugins.  My company won't allow you to
install quicktime on their pcs.

Nancy

On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:10 PM, Ron Zisman  wrote:
> anybody know of a solid way to embed quicktime movies 
> cross-platform--in a standards sort of way.
>
> i've googled around and haven't found what i need. i'm told my current 
> method hates IE. surprise.
>
> test page here:
> http://www.ricochet.org/test_flippin/georg_tampered.html
>
> thanks in advance
>
> --ron
>
>
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
> ***
>
>


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] credibility of accessibility validator and evaluator

[Steve Green]

Accessibility validators should make it very clear where a checkpoint is
required by a standard (in which case they should provide a reference so you
can check the precise wording) and where it is 'best practice' (according to
who?).

In this case the 'failure' is not a non-compliance with any standard, and I
would not even describe it as a 'best practice'. To be a 'best practice'
there should be a consensus amongst professionals in the field that the
practice is applicable in all cases where it is relevant. I have never seen
this practice mentioned or discussed previously, and I am sure there will be
cases where it is not necessary or desirable.

Use the accessibility validators insofar as they are useful to you, but
don't be a slave to them. If you learn the rationale behind all the
checkpoints you will understand how to balance conflicting requirements and
know when it is safe to ignore them completely.

Steve

 

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of tee
Sent: 31 December 2008 10:43
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] credibility of accessibility validator and evaluator

I was testing the FAE the first time, and is questioning its report
credibility because  it fails my document title 50%. Not that I don't like
to be wrong :)

According to the report:

Document Title  Best Practices

 * The page should contain exactly one title element.
 * Pass: 1 title element was found.
 * The text content of each h1 element should match all or part of the
title content.
 * Fail: 0% (0 out of 1)

I cannot find any information about  h1 content should match part or all of
the title content on WCAG 2.0 guideline. There isn't guideline reference
link to WCAG 2.0 official site, and I couldn't find such info on WCAG
official document.

Though from the SEO point of view, this 'advice' makes sense.

This also makes me wonder how reliable those accessibility validators are
because I get different results from Cynthia Says and Total Validators-these
are the two I frequently use.

Note: I am fully aware an accessible site can't just rely on validator but
extra human eyes and care.

tee



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

[WSG] Steve Brown is out of the office.

[steve . brown]

I will be out of the office starting  24/12/2008 and will not return until
12/01/2009.

During that time urgent web issues can be sent to Mitchell Essex up to an
including the 2nd January and to Kate Needham from the 3rd to the 9th.

If all else fails, I can be contacted on my mobile on 0408 406 998.

Thanks


This message is intended for the addressee named and may contain confidential 
information. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete it and notify 
the sender. Views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, 
and are not necessarily the views of their organisation.



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

RE: [WSG] jquery ui.slider keyboard navigation question

[Steve Green]

It is understood that some tasks will require two keys, such as Alt + down
arrow to open a combobox.

I presume you are testing on a Mac because I see slightly different
behaviour than you describe in Windows browsers. In both Internet Explorer 6
and Firefox 2.0 the arrow keys alone are sufficient to operate the sliders.
However, if the window has a scrollbar, both the slider and the scrollbar
move at the same time in both browsers. If the Ctrl key is used in addition
to the arrow key, only the slider moves.

Steve


 

-Original Message-
From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On
Behalf Of tee
Sent: 12 December 2008 16:46
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] jquery ui.slider keyboard navigation question

It's more an accessibility question so I thought I am posting my question
here.

jQuery site claims that the ui.slider has keyboard navigation support.  
I tested in FF, Safari and Opera, the result varies.

In FF and Opera, I needed to hold down Control Key with left/right arrow In
Safari, left/right arrow works fine.

http://dev.jquery.com/view/tags/ui/1.5b2/demos/ui.slider.html

Two questions:
1) When we say keyboard navigation for website, is it common to expect only
one keystroke for one task?

2) and that it applies to browsers that support tabbing navigation
consistently?

I can't figure from the code  whether the different behaviors  in above
browsers are caused by the script or a browser default behavior.

Thank you!

tee


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
***

Re: [WSG] Acceptable JavaScript Coding Practice?

[Steve Workman]

Say you had another method on the page like this:

function somethingElseOnClick() {

identifier = "cheese";

}

When this function is called, your identifier variable has been overwritten,
so when your hover method comes to access it, it's not the right value any
more.

With regards to the unobtrusive javascript comments: yes, it's best practice
to use a library like jQuery or Prototype, but for simple one-use things, or
starting to learn JavaScript, its not a bad idea to write it out by hand.

Steve
2008/12/9 Brett Patterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Hi Steve,
>
> How could another method change the element the identifier variable is
> pointing at? I thought that that could only occur if I changed the id
> attribute or the variable itself, or the argument (here
> namedFunction('timer')) where timer is the argument?
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> Is not acceptable to put event handlers like onhover and onclick in an HTML
> page? Sorry, but I am still learning JavaScript.
>
> On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 10:45 AM, Chris Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>
>> Hi Brett,
>>
>> The problem isn't this:
>>
>> > var whatever = document.getElementById(layer);
>>
>> I's this:
>>
>> > onhover="namedFunction('timer')
>>
>> What you're doing is mixing JavaScript in the HTML of the page. What you
>> should do is use a "listener" on your link to see when it is hovered over.
>> This code uses the prototype library [1] but you can do the same thing with
>> other libraries such as jQuery and mootools. I recommend you take a look at
>> one of those libraries to help you with this stuff. (Warning: I've not
>> tested this code!)
>>
>> In the  of your page:
>>
>> 
>>
>> // listen for the page being loaded completely
>> Event.observe(window, 'load', HoverListener, false);
>>
>> function HoverListener()
>> {
>>// for each link with the class 'hover'
>>$$('a.hover').each(function(element)
>>{
>>// listen for the 'mouseover' event on this link and
>> execute the 'RunCode' function when it happens
>>Event.observe(element, 'mouseover', RunCode, false);
>>// also listen for the 'focus' event on this link for
>> keyboard-compatibility
>>Event.observe(element, 'focus', RunCode, false);
>>});
>> }
>>
>> function RunCode(e)
>> {
>>// get the element which triggered the event
>>var el = Event.findElement(e, 'A');
>>
>>// now do your code! In this example I'm just alert()ing the text
>> in the link
>>alert(el.innerHTML);
>> }
>>
>> 
>>
>> You can apply the class "hover" to any link, it will execute the RunCode
>> function above when that link is hovered over (or receives focus from a
>> keyboard action):
>>
>> Hover over this link...
>>
>> Hope this helps,
>>
>> Chris
>>
>> [1] http://prototypejs.org
>>
>>
>> This message has been scanned for malware by SurfControl plc.
>> www.surfcontrol.com
>>
>>
>> ***
>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> ***
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Brett P.
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] Acceptable JavaScript Coding Practice?

[Steve Workman]

Hi Brett,

Your problem here would be around the usage of the identifier variable. What
if another method changed what element the identifier pointed at?

In this case, you'd be better off redeclaring the getElement selector to
patch this security risk.

Steve
2008/12/9 Brett Patterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> To All,
>
> I was playing around with a page where I found out that just about
> everything that I wanted to do I had to use:
>
> function namedFunction(layer)
>  {
>  var whatever = document.getElementById(layer);
> * // other code here.*
>  }
>
> And I got really annoyed at having to either copy and paste or retype the
> getElementById(layer) part. So I thought about a way to not have to retype
> it (and make it cross-browser compatible) and to assign it a variable that I
> could use over and over again. I used the below:
>
> var identifier = document.getElementById(layer);
>
> function namedFunction()
>  {
>  var whatever = identifier;
>  *// other code here.*
>  }
>
> In the html part:
>
> 
>
> where when you hovered over the image it dropped down a menu. Would this be
> acceptable and cross-browser compatible code?
>
> --
> Brett P.
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] the Name attribute

[Steve Green]

Stuart's point is that blinking content violates checkpoint 7.2 of the W3C
Web Content Accessibility Guidelines:

"Until user agents allow users to control blinking, avoid causing content to
blink (i.e., change presentation at a regular rate, such as turning on and
off)"

Steve



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Hall
Sent: 28 November 2008 20:44
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] the Name attribute

On Fri, 2008-11-28 at 13:07 +, Stuart Foulstone wrote:
> Blinking text is against standards in itself, so how can you do it in 
> a standards compliant way?

Using the sample I posted - see below.  That validates.

Cheers

Dave

> 
> On Fri, November 28, 2008 10:45 am, Dave Hall wrote:
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >>/* ... */
> >>.blink{
> >>text-decoration: blink;
> >>}
> >>/* ... */
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> my blinking test
> >> 
> >> 
> >>
> >> instead of
> >> 
> >> my blinking test
> >> 



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

[WSG] jQuery problems

[Steve Green]

I would be grateful if any JavaScript (specifically jQuery) experts could
contact me off-list as I have a client who needs some remedial work done
(for which they will pay). Also are there any more suitable places I could
post this request?

Steve



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Text-only version

[Steve Green]

I see where you're coming from, but the logical extension of your argument
is that there are never any instances where it is necessary to use images to
convey information. That is certainly often the case, but can we say
'never'?

You are not always able to make sites as semantically pure as you might wish
(unless you are prepared to walk away from a lot of work). For instance I am
currently working with a group of large retail brands where the brand
managers will absolutely not permit the degradation of the visual appearance
by replacing the graphical representations of text with real text. We're not
starting with a clean sheet, so a jump to a pure semantic website just isn't
going to happen in one step (at least not in the timescale they are looking
for).

Steve
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christian Montoya
Sent: 20 November 2008 21:33
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Text-only version

> On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 3:40 PM, Steve Green 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>>
>> You can do a lot of what Betsie does using CSS but the one thing you 
>> can't do is replace the images with their 'alt' attributes.
>
> Does this solve some problem?
>

On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 4:19 PM, Steve Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Yes it does. It allows the creation of a text-only version for people 
> who need one but don't have a suitable user agent on the machine that 
> they currently have access to.

I'm still not seeing the problem for the solution. If you can't see images,
does the alt text really help? I don't mean to sound annoying, I'm just
trying to see the point of using Betsie on a semantic website.

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Text-only version

[Steve Green]

Yes, of course you can do stuff like this, although it gets pretty ugly and
bloated if you have a lot of images. The point of Betsie is that it can be
retrofitted to existing websites without the need to modify any code.

It also caters for people who are working on a machine that is not
configured to their needs and cannot be altered e.g. in an Internet cafe or
a locked-down machine in someone else's office. Your image replacement
technique does not cater for these situations unless you also add a style
switcher, but that appears to be taboo in this list.

Steve

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Dorward
Sent: 20 November 2008 21:06
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Text-only version

Steve Green wrote:

> You can do a lot of what Betsie does using CSS but the one thing you 
> can't do is replace the images with their 'alt' attributes.

CSS is quite capable of that.

The following works fine in Opera 9.62 (the only browser I've bothered to
test for this proof of concept).

http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd";>
   Replace Image With Alt
   
img {
height: 0; width: 0;
}

img::after {
content : attr(alt);
}
   
   Replace Image With Alt

   
http://dorward.me.uk/images/wheel/logo.png";
alt="Dorward Online">
   


-- 
David Dorward   <http://dorward.me.uk/>


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Text-only version

[Steve Green]

Yes it does. It allows the creation of a text-only version for people who
need one but don't have a suitable user agent on the machine that they
currently have access to.

Steve
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christian Montoya
Sent: 20 November 2008 21:07
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Text-only version

On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 3:40 PM, Steve Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> You can do a lot of what Betsie does using CSS but the one thing you 
> can't do is replace the images with their 'alt' attributes.

Does this solve some problem?

--
--
Christian Montoya
christianmontoya.net


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Text-only version

[Steve Green]

Agreed. If you've got a user agent that does what you need, Betsie doesn't
really add anything. If you don't have access to your own machine (and none
of us do all of the time) then it does perform a useful function for some
people.

Steve

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick H. Lauke
Sent: 20 November 2008 20:54
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Text-only version

Steve Green wrote:
> You can do a lot of what Betsie does using CSS but the one thing you 
> can't do is replace the images with their 'alt' attributes.

Unless you set your user agent to do that, because presumably that's
something you'd need on all sites, not just one particular one.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re.dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re-
+ dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Text-only version

[Steve Green]

Betsie does a lot more than just display the page without styles. It was
designed to improve the accessibility of the crappy websites that were the
norm a decade ago, and it is less useful on a website that is coded properly
but it still has some value. The technical spec is at
http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/betsie/tech.html
 
You can do a lot of what Betsie does using CSS but the one thing you can't
do is replace the images with their 'alt' attributes.
 
Steve

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom ('Mas) Pickering
Sent: 20 November 2008 20:20
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Text-only version


Rob -

What I would interpret that to mean is that, by clicking on the link in the
footer, the visitor will be presented the content either without any
graphics or without any graphics or CSS.  If it were merely a matter of the
CSS being removed, that shouldn't be a billable item.  However, if all
graphics are removed from the page, then you would have a different version
of the page and that would be billable, though it would likely involve less
time to modify the original template to have a text-only version.

In either case, I would seek detailed clarification of that line item from
their estimate.

At 01:53 PM 11/20/2008, you wrote:


Dear list,

I'm involved in a CMS-based website project where the supplier has  
provided me with a breakdown of costs - before I sign it off.

One of the items highlighted in the breakdown is a footer-accessed  
link for a text-only version. The supplier claims it's the same  
technology used/developed by the BBC - called Betsie.

Do you think it's a service I should be paying for? Although not  
expensive, I'm wondering why the 'functionality' needs to be  
highlighted at all? Surely, it's the same as saying we'll charge you  
separately for css or html markup?

Thoughts...

Thanks,

-- Rob

// Rob Enslin
// twitter.com/robenslin
// +44 (0)759 052 8890


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



Tom ('Mas) Pickering - Web Developer & Patti Gray - Web Designer
[EMAIL PROTECTED] & [EMAIL PROTECTED]
PourHouse Productions - http://pourhouse.com/
When He Reigns - It Pours <)>< 
***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Big Browsing Issues on clients PC Laptop AOL

[Steve Green]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matthew Pennell
Sent: 18 October 2008 20:22
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Big Browsing Issues on clients PC Laptop AOL

On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 7:19 PM, Kristine Cummins
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I just launched a site, and it's browsing fine on my PC & Mac laptop
from IE5-8 browsers to FF etc. However, when my client visits her site on
her PC laptop using AOL, it is browsing (as if) the stylesheet is applying
only half way.  I've recommended her to download the latest IE or FF, but
she hasn't done it yet. When she goes to her place of work, it looks fine.
How could there be this huge discrepancy on her PC Laptop using AOL?


I can't speak for recently, but years ago AOL used to basically install
itself *as* your browser. The browser would be badged AOL, and it wouldn't
render quite like anything else that was around at the time. Now this was
probably around the time of IE4, so I would hope that things have changed -
I just checked the analytics account for a huge (180m pageviews/month) site,
and there are zero records of any browser with the string "AOL" in the
identification string, which suggests that there is currently no such thing
as an AOL browser.

Perhaps your stylesheet is cached by an AOL proxy?

- Matthew

-- 

Since AOL5 (and possibly earlier) the Windows version of AOL has used the
Internet Explorer rendering engine. If a suitable version of IE was already
installed it used that, otherwise it installed a newer version.

It would be interesting to see if the same problems occur when she accesses
the website using Internet Explorer.

Steve



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Fieldsets & Legends

[Steve Green]

 
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 03 October 2008 10:03
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Fieldsets & Legends

Hi,
 
I'm trying to educate developers to add fieldsets and legends to their code
when building applications.  Jaws 5.0 handles fieldsets and legends in the
form field dialog box but jaws 9.0 doesn't.  I've spoken to freedom
scientific and they say this
"Therefore, there is really no setting in JAWS 9.0 that can be changed to
cause the List of Form Fields dialog to behave in the same manner as it in
JAWS 5.0."

Does anyone have any thoughts on this matter or know of any software that
does support fieldsets and legends!

Thanks
Clare
 
--


Can you explain what problem you are trying to solve? You can't change what
user agents people have, so what is your objective?

Steve




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] WCAG2 in general

[Steve Green]

Further to the discussion regarding WCAG 2.0 in government, I am interested
in the reasons why organisations are or are not choosing to adopt WCAG 2.0.
Would anyone care to share their thoughts? Are you adopting it just because
it's new and presumably better? Or have you reviewed it thoroughly and
concluded that it really is better?

We are still in the process of taking a position on this, but at the moment
we are profoundly negative about WCAG 2.0. I can see few ways if any that it
will directly benefit website users, and the whole focus appears to be on
making life easier for developers by taking out the difficult stuff or
pretending it's not a problem.

The only benefit I see is that some developers may embrace accessible design
if it is easier to meet the guidelines, which may lead to a general (but
limited) improvement in accessibility. However, this will be offset by a
lowering of standards at the top end unless developers go beyond what WCAG
2.0 requires (and what's the chance of that?).

Does anyone think that WCAG 2.0 will improve the user experience? Or do you
take my view that it only benefits developers, and that the user experience
will be worse in future?

Steve



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Looking to source a JAWS version

[Steve Green]

 
>> in our attempts to improve our accessibility we want to get a version 
>> of JAWS.

> It's not easy to master all of the JAWS commands so try the 40 minute 
> demo first.

Hi Ben,

It's great that you are wanting to do accessibility testing, I assume in
addition to following standards[1].

There is a fairly steep learning curve for full-fledged screen readers, and
an infrequent tester cannot get a sense of what it's really like to use a
screen reader without observing a regular screen reader user. Thus, I
personally[2] find it's easiest and better to find regular screen reader
users (that is, someone who is blind) for your main development and testing,
and then use a simple free/cheap voicing browser or screen reader only for
in house testing of specific things as you develop.

For more on this, see:
* http://www.uiaccess.com/accessucd/involve.html

Regards,
~Shawn

[1] http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/wcag.php
[2] Note this email is not representing my employer, even though I'm on this
list with my employer email address.

-
Shawn Lawton Henry
about: www.uiAccess.com/profile.html
phone: +1-617-395-7664
email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-


Hi Ben,

Shawn is quite right, and I find that testers and developers use screen
readers totally differently from the way that 'real' users use them because
they don't know any different.

We provide screen reader training for testers and developers, which teaches
them not only how the software is used, but how screen reader users create a
mental model of web pages and the strategies they use for navigating within
them. Without that knowledge there is little value in doing the testing
yourself.

Steve Green
Director
Labscape Ltd
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.labscape.co.uk

-



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] Best format for accessible equations

[Steve Baty]

Breton,

Except for the most basic of equation, I don't believe that solution is
practical. In the absence of the full symbolism contained in the equation,
the meaning of the equation becomes lost very, very quickly.

For example, the equations contained in this graphic -
http://www.xycoon.com/images/nor010.gif - are not terribly complicated, but
as you start to read it out into words, it becomes extremely verbose and
confused. "Function of capital x equals exponential raised to the power of
minus one half times capital x minus mu divided by sigma raised to the power
of 2 all divided by sigma times the square root of two times pi."

You've also now lost some of the meaning of the equation - mu is the
expected value of a normal probability distribution; capital X is the
expected value of a sample from the population with normal probably
distribution; and sigma is the population standard deviation. Now, granted,
someone familiar with mathematics would know this, but in the symbolic
representation of the equation the meaning is clear and embedded.

Looking at the example you provided, is this to mean (x/2)^y or x/(2^y)?

An enormous degree of care would be required to accurately, and
unambiguously translate the symbolic representation of the equation into
English.

Best regards
Steve Baty

2008/9/22 Breton Slivka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Might I suggest quite simply, that in the alt attribute, you write in
> english, basically what you would say if you were to read the
> mathematical expression out loud? This has the best chance of being
> converted into something comprehensible by a screen reader. I am
> assuming of course that screen readers typically have no built in
> facility for dealing with mathematical expressions.  For example,
> something like "X over 2, raised to the power of Y" I'm pretty sure
> there's a fairly traditional language used for reading math
> expressions, though I don't know of any references.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 12:47 PM, Andrew Ivin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > We are implementing mathematical equations on one of our websites.
> >
> > Unfortunately, we are not able to implement a MathML or LaTex type
> > solution at this stage (developer time and budget constraints)
> > So, we are putting these equations up as graphics.
> >
> > I'm wondering the best way of giving these graphics alt attributes -
> > both for web browsers and screen readers.
> >
> >
> > If there are any suggestions, they would be much appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > --
> > Andrew
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> > ***
> > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > ***
> >
> >
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>


-- 
--
Steve 'Doc' Baty B.Sc (Maths), M.EC, MBA
Principal Consultant
Meld Consulting
M: +61 417 061 292
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

UX Statistics: http://uxstats.blogspot.com

Member, UPA - www.upassoc.org
Member, IA Institute - www.iainstitute.org
Member, IxDA - www.ixda.org
Contributor - UXMatters - www.uxmatters.com


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

[WSG] I am currently away...

[steve]

I am currently away from the office until Wednesday the 24th of September and 
will reply to your email then.

All the best,

Steve Dangerfield.
0403 895050




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

[WSG] I am currently away...

[steve]

I am currently away from the office until Wednesday the 24th of September and 
will reply to your email then.

All the best,

Steve Dangerfield.
0403 895050




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

[WSG] I am currently away...

[steve]

I am currently away from the office until Wednesday the 24th of September and 
will reply to your email then.

All the best,

Steve Dangerfield.
0403 895050




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

[WSG] I am currently away...

[steve]

I am currently away from the office until Wednesday the 24th of September and 
will reply to your email then.

All the best,

Steve Dangerfield.
0403 895050




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Google chrome... Accessibility coming very soon???

[Steve Green]

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Adam Martin
Sent: 04 September 2008 23:33
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Google chrome... Accessibility coming very soon???


Hey guys... it is great that talk about accessibility and chrome has been
raised - but I do think that we need to wait until it is out of beta. 
 
Cheers
Adam


--


Why? Accessibility can't just be bolted on afterwards - it needs to be
designed in from the start. The fact that the application cannot be used
with just a keyboard is criminally negligent - that's a fundamental
requirement of any application. The simplicity of the UI means it should
have been really easy, and the fact that the application is device-dependent
suggests that accessibility isn't on their radar at all.

The fact that keyboard-only users, screen reader users and others cannot use
the browser at all means that they are entirely excluded from the beta
phase, so it seems they will not be able to provide feedback until it goes
gold, if it ever does. For an organisation with Google's resources this is
totally unacceptable.

Steve



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Google chrome... Accessibility coming very soon???

[Steve Green]

Yes, this is the case. There has been a lot of talk about this in GAWDS, and
Steve Faulkner has written about it at
http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/?p=92.

Basically it looks like there's no MSAA support. If they don't address this,
many large organisations (at least in the UK) will not use it. I imagine
that such organisations are exactly the people Google are expecting to build
applications using Chrome, so hopefully this will be addressed at some
point, ideally before it comes out of beta.

Steve 

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of kevin erickson
Sent: 03 September 2008 16:07
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Google chrome... Accessibility coming very soon???

I have a huge concern about accessibility here. Apparently Jaws and other
screen readers don't work on Google Chrome at all. Can others please
confirm?

kevin


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

[Steve Green]

 

Thanks Steve for the clarification.

OK, in the risk of showing more ignorant, I still have question. My
understanding on WCAG guidelines, are the fundamental principle of DDA,
Section 508 and similar law in other countries correct? When a website is to
be DDA or Section 508 compliant, for lack of better guideline (or none) from
the DDA law, we follow WCAG guidelines because there aren't anything else we
can base on. Is it not that UK websites are to to be WCAG AA compliant so
that it meets UK DDA compliant? 'Reasonable measures' takes into account
that is correct; personally I feel that making an accessible site for all
people regardless of disability take one's common sense, sensibility and
compassion towards  others who are at disadvantage doing certain things that
most people like us take it for granted, these are also reasonable measures
I think.

Since the DDA law has not drafted out a comprehensive guideline for website
maker/owner to follow but an unofficial WCAG we depend on, I think
'reasonable measures' can also be favored by defendant with his [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]
lawyer :-)

Under British law, can individual who brings a case under the DDA and the
lawyer seek monetary compensation?
Couple months  ago a handful of ADA lawsuits handled by a same lawyer.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2008/06/13/carollloyd.DTL&h
w=disability+lawsuit&sn=001&sc=1000

I followed the story because one of my clients was affected, she closed her
business as a result. After reading some background stories, I am not
sympathize to the plaintiffs. If a lawyer filed over 1500 cases like this,
and fatten his wallet on every case, it's hard to convince that he was
fighting for a just and noble cause but a tumour for ADA/DDA.
If lawyer and plaintiff can seek monetary compensation, I honestly hope no
ADA/DDA law ever applies to website.

tee
  
--

The DDA is only relevant if both the user and the website owner are based in
the UK. In all other circumstances it can and should be ignored. And it has
absolutely nothing to do with the WCAG. The DDA does not require WCAG
compliance and does not even mention it. WCAG compliance could be used as
part of a defence that reasonable measures were taken, but it may not be
sufficient (the court may believe that the website owner had sufficient
resources to conduct user testing that would have revealed accessibility
issues that the WCAG testing missed).

Section 508 only applied in the US, and only to Federal or Federally-funded
websites.  In all other circumstances it can and should be ignored.

All of which leaves us with the WCAG, which are universally recognised.
Unless a country has its own set of guidelines, WCAG is all you need to be
concerned with.

An individual who brings a case under the DDA can seek monetary
compensation. However, the law is supposed to be a last resort, and users
are expected to give the website owner the opportunity to make the website
accessible before resorting to law. Failure to do so suggests that the
plaintiff is just looking for a payout and that they are not actually
interested in being able to use the website. The situation may be different
in the US but you're not going to get ambulance-chasing lawyers stirring up
trouble in the UK.

Steve



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

[Steve Green]

I thought that "UK DDA" is based on the WCAG AA guideline no?  One time I
did a template coding for a UK company, and was asked to follow WCAG AA
guideline.

As for Section 508, my impression is that, despite the additional
requirements, it doesn't even quite meet the WCAG A.

In the early years of my Standard Compliant pilgrim, I did a couple sites
that were WCAG AAA compliant (if Bobby was right) so that I could get a
field experience then reading the WCAG guidelines that I have had difficulty
to comprehend. I agree that compliance with WCAG is of no guarantee that a
site is fully accessibly, however, I do think that if a site scores WCAG
AAA, it pretty much covers section 508, and maybe UK DDA (I am not very
famliar with this guideline).

tee



No, the DDA is not based on WCAG. The DDA is not a technical standard, it is
a UK law. If a website is not accessible to someone, they can (in theory)
bring a case against the website owner under the DDA regardless of whether
the website meets WCAG A, AA, AAA or any other technical standard. If the
court deem that the website owner did not take 'reasonable measures' to
ensure that the website is accessible, they will lose the case.

'Reasonable measures' takes into account all relevant factors including the
resources available. In the case of a small company with a website with
complex content such as a GIS (geographic information system) the court may
well deem that it would not be reasonable to expect the company to bear the
cost of making it accessible (to the particular person who brought the
case). The site would therefore be DDA compliant (for that person) despite
not even meeting WCAG A.

Note that only an individual can bring a case under the DDA because it is
necessary to show that they have suffered discrimination. It is not possible
to bring a class action, nor can a third party (such as a lobbying group)
bring an action although they may support an individual in bringing the
action. The findings of the court only apply to that individual so the
phrase 'DDA compliant' actually has no meaning except in its application to
a single person.

Steve



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what

[Steve Green]

 
On Aug 14, 2008, at 3:09 AM, Krystian - Sunlust wrote:
>>
>
> It costs £300 man, I would prefer to get an open source solution, 
> community > paid support.

Try getting support from Magento,  likely £300 is comparably very
inexpensive, considering that commercial software ought to give you support
on every question you asked (if  not, you go spread the bad
word) :-)

excerpt from tradingeye:
Accessibility
• WCAG AAA
• UK DDA aware
• Section 508 aware


Placing 'WCAG AAA', DDA, Section 508 aware, it makes think they don't really
know what they are taking. If they have scored AAA (how many sites you built
have achieved this ?), why add the other two?

tee


I have no idea what they mean by "UK DDA aware". DDA is not a technical
standard and has nothing to do with the WCAG. Compliance with WCAG (even
AAA) is no guarantee that a site meets the requirements of the DDA. The
latter is concerned with 'actual outcomes' i.e. can people with disabilities
access the site.

It is reasonable to include Section 508 because it is not a subset of WCAG
AAA. It is substantially based on WCAG but it has additional requirements.

Steve



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Reverting to older version of flash for testing purposes.

[Steve Green]

You can get an uninstaller from the Adobe website -
http://www.adobe.com/support/flashplayer/downloads.html#uninstaller
 
You can get every old Flash version at
http://kb.adobe.com/selfservice/viewContent.do?externalId=tn_14266
<http://kb.adobe.com/selfservice/viewContent.do?externalId=tn_14266&sliceId=
2> &sliceId=2
 
Ensure all browsers are closed before uninstalling, and reboot afterwards
even if you are not prompted to.
 
We do this many times every day, and the uninstallers do screw up
occasionally, particularly on Windows. Sometimes it leaves you such that
Flash does not work but you cannot install a new version. At that point we
just restore a new disk image.
 
Note that on the Mac the uninstaller will uninstall every instance of Flash
from every browser on every partition it can get to (if you have multiple OS
X versions on a partitioned hard disk as we do). Likewise the installer
installs the same Flash version onto every browser on every partition so you
can't have different Flash versions on the same machine. There may be a way
to hack this but I can't figure it out.
 
Steve

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Caleb Wong
Sent: 09 July 2008 00:05
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] Reverting to older version of flash for testing purposes.


Hi,

Does anyone know of if there are ways of reverting to a older version of
flash (i.e 7) for testing purposes on a MAC or PC?

Cheers,
Caleb

***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] ADA Compliant Flash

[Steve Green]

Thanks for the clarification Dennis. If it turns out that ADA does cover
websites, what would be the test for compliance?

Or is it likely to be similar to the DDA in the UK, which is concerned with
actual outcomes rather than a technical standard? Under the DDA it doesn't
matter if a website is AAA-compliant (if such a thing were possible); a
person can still bring an action if the website was not accessible to them
(although there is no guarantee they will win). Only a court can decide if
the website met the law or not.

Steve


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dennis Lapcewich
Sent: 07 July 2008 21:50
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] ADA Compliant Flash

Clarification.

Section 508 and ADA are about as different as fishes and bicycles in intent,
direction, scope and application.

Section 508 is part of Rehabilitation Act of 1973, as amended.  It only
applies to US Government web sites and those sites built/maintained with
(US) federal tax dollars.

ADA is shorthand for the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990, as
amended.  The prevailing point of view (until recently) is ADA has nothing
to do with the web.  However the Target.com court case and other (US) state
thoughts are that ADA applies to all web sites within its jurisdiction.
Time will tell on this point.



 Dennis Lapcewich   
 USDA Forest Service Webmaster  
 DRM Civil Rights POC   
 R6 Web Accessibility Monitoring Program
 Pacific Northwest Region - Vancouver, WA   
 360-891-5024 - Voice | 360-891-5045 - Fax  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]   

 "People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing 
 it." -- Anonymous  





[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 07/07/2008 09:10:49 AM:

> If ADA requires compliance with Section 508 (and I am not sure if it
does),
> then you would need to provide the content in an alternative, 
> accessible format regardless of how accessible the Flash version is. 
> My reasoning is
> thus:
>



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] ADA Compliant Flash

[Steve Green]

If ADA requires compliance with Section 508 (and I am not sure if it does),
then you would need to provide the content in an alternative, accessible
format regardless of how accessible the Flash version is. My reasoning is
thus:

Checkpoint m) of Section 508 states "When a web page requires that an
applet, plug-in or other application be present on the client system to
interpret page content, the page must provide a link to a plug-in or applet
that complies with §1194.21(a) through (l)". Clearly it is not possible to
provide such a link for user agents that do not support Flash, so in my
opinion this checkpoint cannot be met for any Flash-based content.

Checkpoint k) states "A text-only page, with equivalent information or
functionality, shall be provided to make a web site comply with the
provisions of this part, when compliance cannot be accomplished in any other
way. The content of the text-only page shall be updated whenever the primary
page changes". This would appear to allow you to achieve compliance, albeit
in a rather sub-optimal manner.


On a separate issue, can I take the opportunity to advertise a permanent job
vacancy for a website tester / accessibility tester / consultant. This is a
mid-level to senior position based on London and I am offering a substantial
finders fee for anyone who can introduce a candidate that we recruit. Full
details are available on request.

Steve Green
Labscape
www.labscape.co.uk


 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom Livingston
Sent: 07 July 2008 15:37
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] ADA Compliant Flash

Hello list,

Is it possible to have an ADA (no, not the dentists' thing) compliant Flash
site? Anyone have a good resource, if it is possible? All my searching has
resulted in the feeling that this subject is one people avoid.

-- 

Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic |
ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming

[Steve Green]

Well here's a guy who has done a bit of usability testing. To quote from the
article:

"We know from user testing that users hate horizontal scrolling and always
comment negatively when they encounter it".

http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20050711.html

Of course he could be entirely wrong but I don't know of any more credible
research than his.


"How many people have set a window size that will make your page or my page
either fall outside the viewing area or squish to the point that other
usability issues come to bear"

Quite a few actually, now that designers tend to design for a minimum screen
resolution of 1024x768 while there are still a significant number of people
still using lower resolutions.

Steve

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Al Sparber
Sent: 03 July 2008 22:17
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming

From: "Andrew Maben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 4:38 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming


> On Jul 3, 2008, at 3:41 PM, Al Sparber wrote:
>
>> an irrational fear of scrollbars
>
> When a block of text exceeds the viewport width, that means horizontal 
> scrolling for *each line* - a royal PITA.

I kid of think you are speaking for yourself ;-)

> If a right hand column falls outside the viewing area, it's not 
> unreasonable to assume that a significant number of users will not 
> bother to look.
>
> Concern for either of these is scarcely "irrational fear" IMHO.

I think you have to first buy into someone else's usability tests. I don't. 
I am skeptical of many usability manifestos. That said, I'm not totally sure
one way or another on this issue. What I am sure of is that I have not
conducted conclusive testing, but the testing I have conducted leads me to
believe, for now, that "fear of scrolling" is a fear that is far more
prevalent among web developers than it is for the general population.

As for right columns falling outside the viewing area - whose viewing area? 
What size window? How many people have set a window size that will make your
page or my page either fall outside the viewing area or squish to the point
that other usability issues come to bear?

--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Fully Automated Menu Systems | Galleries | Widgets
http://www.projectseven.com/go/Elevators




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming

[Steve Green]

"I have never encountered a friend, family member or other "civilian" who
has a problem scrolling in either direction if necessary."

A horizontal scrollbar does not prevent users from accessing content but it
reduces the efficiency with which they can do so. Not only does zooming
introduce the horizontal scrollbar but it greatly increases the amount of
vertical scrolling that is required compared with text sizing.

Horizontal scrollbars cause terrible usability problems for people who use
screen magnification because the scrollbar is not present except when they
scroll to the very bottom of the page. If the content they wanted to view
was in the top right-hand corner they have to scroll to the bottom of the
page and back up again. Having seen this occur during many user testing
sessions I advise strongly against horizontal scrollbars.

In my view, zooming and text sizing are appropriate for different needs. For
relatively small text size increases I think that text sizing is appropriate
because it does not result in a horizontal scrollbar. If larger text sizes
are required I would advise people to use the zoom function because the page
layout often breaks badly at large text sizes (there are limits to what is
achievable even when a site is designed well).

Steve



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Al Sparber
Sent: 03 July 2008 20:41
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Browsers and Zooming

>>  I wonder what a partially sighted user would thing of these 
>> 'improvements'. Would they be glad that now they can see images a 
>> little easier and the layout seems to break less or would they be 
>> annoyed at the sudden appearance of a horizontal scrollbar?

I think web developers have an irrational fear of scrollbars :-) They are
tools to scroll a window, not signs of bad design. I have never encountered
a friend, family member or other "civilian" who has a problem scrolling in
either direction if necessary.

For folks who need to increase the text size for a specific page (perhaps
because the designer set microscopic font-sizes) a true zoom, rather than a
text resize, preserves the line-length proportions in a fixed-width layout.

>>
>> Or would they be using screen magnification software anyway, and it 
>> wouldn't make a difference to them?

Probably not.

There are far more important issues to get bogged down in ;-)

--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Fully Automated Menu Systems | Galleries | Widgets
http://www.projectseven.com/go/Elevators




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] Firefox 3 candidate

[Steve Green]

You can still get some old versions from the Mozilla FTP site at
http://releases.mozilla.org/pub/mozilla.org/firefox/releases/
 
It's ludicrous that they have removed some old versions - can they really
not afford the disk space? Obviously users should not be installing old
versions but developers and testers still need them for testing. We download
and store all the English versions but it's not practical to save all the
localised versions too.
 
Steve
 
 

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Sagnik Dey
Sent: 23 June 2008 11:21
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Firefox 3 candidate



Hi Paul,

You can download Firefox Ver 2.0 from .

http://www.oldapps.com/firefox.htm 

This is a very good website for downloading older appz.

-- 
Cheers to life

Sagnik ::
26four79.com




On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 3:31 PM, Paul Collins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:


Hi all,

Thanks for your replies to this thread last week. I'm on a PC today
and trying to get both versions of Firefox running, the only issue is,
I can't find where to download version 2 of Firefox anymore! Mozilla
have made it very hard to find previous versions

Does anyone know where you can get version 2?!

Cheers

2008/6/19 Paul Bennett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> select custom install and install it to another directory (something like
/Mozilla/Firefox3) and the two will run side-by-side.
>
> You can do this with Opera too.
> :)
> Paul
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***








***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

Re: [WSG] Breadcrumbs showing organisational structure and usability

[Steve Baty]

Thank you Jessica. Your clarification is correct :)

2008/6/6 Jessica Enders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> I agree with most of the comments in response to this query but thought I
> would clarify one part of what Steve said, namely that: "breadcrumbs ...
> represent the content pathway the user followed to reach their current
> page".
>
> I misread this sentence initially and so others may too. I thought Steve
> was saying that breadcrumbs represent the pathway of pages the user moved
> through to get to their current page. But what I think he's actually saying
> is that they represent the location of the current page within the site
> hierarchy. This latter type of crumb is useful because it gives you a sense
> of context; the former type of crumb is unnecessary because you have the
> "back" button.
>
> Cheers
>
> Jessica Enders
> Director
> Formulate Information Design
> 
> http://formulate.com.au
> 
> Phone: (02) 6116 8765
> Fax: (02) 8456 5916
> PO Box 5108
> Braddon ACT 2612
> 
>
> On 06/06/2008, at 6:58 PM, Steve Baty wrote:
>
>  Lib,
>>
>> Breadcrumbs fall into that category of IA component that hurts no-one, and
>> helps some people some of the time, which generally makes them worthwhile.
>> However, breadcrumbs should serve a specific purpose, that being: to
>> represent the content pathway the user followed to reach their current page.
>> If your site (overall) is structured the same way as your organisation, then
>> the breadcrumbs you've described serve their purpose (although the
>> convention is that each node in the breadcrumb be a link, other than the
>> current page).
>>
>> From what I can see, however, the intent of this device is not to act as a
>> breadcrumb trail in the navigational sense, but is, in fact, a method for
>> communicating organisational structure. That should be a different
>> conversation, and its one that is likely going to come down to 'Company
>> convention dictates' - end of discussion.
>>
>> I have some concerns about the potential for confusing users who would
>> visually associate this device with a navigational mechanism, so an
>> alternate visual treatment (especially the choice of the > delimiter) might
>> be in order.
>>
>> Otherwise, the general consensus amongst the IA community is that
>> breadcrumbs don't hurt, and they might help.
>>
>> Regards
>> Steve
>>
>> 2008/6/6 libwebdev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> My organisation manages around 7000+ pages for 100s of departments,
>> using a CMS. Mine is the only department outside the CMS, just because
>> we can.
>>
>> We have been persuaded (read: bullied) to redesign our header to
>> exactly match that of the parent organisation. I have no problem with
>> that per se, but theirs includes breadcrumbs, and we don't want 'em.
>>
>> I'm wondering what the consensus is here on their usefulness. I've
>> always been under the impression that the purpose of breadcrumbs was
>> to indicate to the user where they had been. However, the ones we are
>> being urged to implement do no such thing; they simply display our
>> organisational structure. This means that on every one of our 200-odd
>> pages, the breadcrumbs will appear like so (we are the library):
>>
>> Parent Org > Clinical Services > Library >  Current page
>>
>> The only thing that's going to change is the current page. To me,
>> that's not a breadcrumb trail at all.
>>
>> Am I wrong in my thinking? Is this a common usage? How does this
>> benefit the user at all?
>>
>> I'm questioning it because of usability issues, which is how I tie it
>> in with web standards. If this is considered off-topic, I apologise,
>> and replies should come directly to me rather than the list.
>>
>> thanks,
>> lib.
>>
>>
>> ***
>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
>> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> ***
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>> Steve 'Doc' Baty B.Sc (Maths), M.EC, MBA
>> Principal Consultant
>> Meld Consulting
>> M: +61 417 061 292
>>

Re: [WSG] Breadcrumbs showing organisational structure and usability

[Steve Baty]

Lib,

Breadcrumbs fall into that category of IA component that hurts no-one, and
helps some people some of the time, which generally makes them worthwhile.
However, breadcrumbs should serve a specific purpose, that being: to
represent the content pathway the user followed to reach their current page.
If your site (overall) is structured the same way as your organisation, then
the breadcrumbs you've described serve their purpose (although the
convention is that each node in the breadcrumb be a link, other than the
current page).

>From what I can see, however, the intent of this device is not to act as a
breadcrumb trail in the navigational sense, but is, in fact, a method for
communicating organisational structure. That should be a different
conversation, and its one that is likely going to come down to 'Company
convention dictates' - end of discussion.

I have some concerns about the potential for confusing users who would
visually associate this device with a navigational mechanism, so an
alternate visual treatment (especially the choice of the > delimiter) might
be in order.

Otherwise, the general consensus amongst the IA community is that
breadcrumbs don't hurt, and they might help.

Regards
Steve

2008/6/6 libwebdev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Hi folks,
>
> My organisation manages around 7000+ pages for 100s of departments,
> using a CMS. Mine is the only department outside the CMS, just because
> we can.
>
> We have been persuaded (read: bullied) to redesign our header to
> exactly match that of the parent organisation. I have no problem with
> that per se, but theirs includes breadcrumbs, and we don't want 'em.
>
> I'm wondering what the consensus is here on their usefulness. I've
> always been under the impression that the purpose of breadcrumbs was
> to indicate to the user where they had been. However, the ones we are
> being urged to implement do no such thing; they simply display our
> organisational structure. This means that on every one of our 200-odd
> pages, the breadcrumbs will appear like so (we are the library):
>
> Parent Org > Clinical Services > Library >  Current page
>
> The only thing that's going to change is the current page. To me,
> that's not a breadcrumb trail at all.
>
> Am I wrong in my thinking? Is this a common usage? How does this
> benefit the user at all?
>
> I'm questioning it because of usability issues, which is how I tie it
> in with web standards. If this is considered off-topic, I apologise,
> and replies should come directly to me rather than the list.
>
> thanks,
> lib.
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>


-- 
--
Steve 'Doc' Baty B.Sc (Maths), M.EC, MBA
Principal Consultant
Meld Consulting
M: +61 417 061 292
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

UX Statistics: http://uxstats.blogspot.com

Member, UPA - www.upassoc.org
Member, IA Institute - www.iainstitute.org
Member, IxDA - www.ixda.org
Contributor - UXMatters - www.uxmatters.com


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] The Problem of adjacent links

[Steve Green]

The rationale for this checkpoint seems to have been long forgotten, and I
don't know of any user agent that has a problem with adjacent links. Nor
does anyone else it seems, which is why the WCAG Samurai recommended that
the checkpoint should be ignored.
 
It certainly isn't a problem for any screen reader I am aware of. I have
heard it said that it relates to some types of Braille display but no one
seems to be able to provide examples. I can imagine that user agents would
have a problem with adjacent links if they were relying on scraping the
screen rather than reading the source, and some did work that way but I
don't know any that do now.
 
Most users are unaware of how pages are marked up so I don't think that they
would have a preference for lists, vertical bars or anything else. During
user testing we encounter both, and have not observed problems with either. 
 
Steve
 
 

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Darren West
Sent: 09 May 2008 12:53
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] The Problem of adjacent links


"The reason for putting the character there in the first place is
explicitly to help screen-reader users distinguish between links."

It is my understanding that the fact that they are seperate links is what
distinguishes between links ...


"Screen-reader users have said that the vertical bar is THEIR preferred
character (even though this means repeating "vertical bar") since it is
not used for anything else and can't be confused."

Prefered to a list?



2008/5/9 Stuart Foulstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


The reason for putting the character there in the first place is
explicitly to help screen-reader users distinguish between links.

Screen-reader users have said that the vertical bar is THEIR preferred
character (even though this means repeating "vertical bar") since it is
not used for anything else and can't be confused.

Border is, of course, purely presentational and of no use whatsoever to
screen-readers and, therefore, does not fulfill accessibility
requirements.



On Fri, May 9, 2008 7:31 am, Jens-Uwe Korff wrote:
>> The most common separator used in such circumstances ... is the
> vertical bar...whilst it is quite "wordy"
>
> That's the reason why I've started *not* to use it anymore. I'm using
> borders instead and add the class "last" to the last list element to
> apply no borders at all.
>
> Whilst a border is slightly higher than a vertical bar it avoids
> screenreaders to go
>
> "home vertical bar latest posts vertical bar contact us vertical bar
> sitemap vertical bar "
>
> Cheers,
>
> Jens
>
> The information contained in this e-mail message and any accompanying
> files is or may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient,
> any use, dissemination, reliance, forwarding, printing or copying of this
> e-mail or any attached files is unauthorised. This e-mail is subject to
> copyright. No part of it should be reproduced, adapted or communicated
> without the written consent of the copyright owner. If you have received
> this e-mail in error please advise the sender immediately by return e-mail
> or telephone and delete all copies. Fairfax does not guarantee the
> accuracy or completeness of any information contained in this e-mail or
> attached files. Internet communications are not secure, therefore Fairfax
> does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this message or
> attached files.
>
>
> ***
> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ***
>
>




***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***





***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***


***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***

RE: [WSG] accessibility and brower compatibility for Kiosk mode?

[Steve Green]

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 17 April 2008 15:36
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: RE: [WSG] accessibility and brower compatibility for Kiosk mode?

 
>Please help me with another question, with multiple list menu, we use 
>'ctrl' and 'Ctrl + shift' to select multiple options, how does this 
>work with touch screen?
>
>tee


Unless you have a keyboard, it probably doesn't work. Some touchscreens
(try) to let you do dragging and stuff, but I think you are going to have to
change your select box into a list of checkboxes, or something like that.
Even on screens that do let you drag, anything as complex as multi-select is
going to be completely non-intuitive - after all I don't know many
'ordinary' web users that know about multi-select without being told
explicitly, they are too used to only being able to select a single item,
and it is almost impossible to discover by accident.

Mike



Multi-select using listboxes or comboboxes is not fully keyboard accessible.
It is possible to select a single contiguous range but it is not possible to
select non-contiguous options. As Mike said, checkboxes are the way to go.

Steve



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***



***
List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm
Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
***