Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

I'm glad to hear that so many of us are experts on law and other topics that have nothing to do with web standards whatsoever. What does this suit have to do with web standards? Well, perhaps down the road somewhere more strict governing will be put in place. Do we want the government invol

RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

The argument that providing reasonable access for blind/vision-impaired visitors/customers implies an equal need to provide translations into every language on the planet is a straw man. Last time I looked, the inability to speak English was not a disability (in any legal sense) although it's cert

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Hi I hope this thread isn't closed. I have never worked on large retail sites as I tend to work on non-profit and government sites, but if the problem has to do with alt tags then I have very little sympathy for Target as this seems like a minor thing. A person with a disability expends at

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

> That's not what Target are saying. It's like a deaf person comes > into their store and requests for assistance but no one speaks the > sign language and he can't lip read. Is it discrimination not to > have a sign-speaking person in your store just in case a deaf personcomes in? You analogy is

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

What is baffling about Target's position here is that while on the question of the web site they behave like ignorant trolls, meanwhile they managed to really break ground in usability with their prescription delivery system -

RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

From: Ortenzi No but you DO have an escalator at your local shopping mall because not everyone finds the climb up the stairs easy. Or should we remove the escalators and elevators from shopping malls too because they CHOSE to go to that shopping mall didn't they? Escalators and elevators

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

>Target are saying "If you are blind, you are worthless. We only take >money from people who aren't like you." In a physical environment the >equivalent would be turning them away at the door. Would you tolerate >that if it was based on gender, religion or race?" That's not what Target are saying

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Well the first round has been decided a couple of days ago: http://www.nfb.org/nfb/NewsBot.asp?MODE=VIEW&ID=221 http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071003/wr_nm/target_blind_dc_4 the DDA does apply to websites let more legal battles begin

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

>Target are saying "If you are blind, you are worthless. We only take >money from people who aren't like you." In a physical environment the >equivalent would be turning them away at the door. Would you tolerate >that if it was based on gender, religion or race?" That's not what Target are saying

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

>Target are saying "If you are blind, you are worthless. We only take >money from people who aren't like you." In a physical environment the >equivalent would be turning them away at the door. Would you tolerate >that if it was based on gender, religion or race?" That's not what Target are saying

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

k of a civilised country that we do. At least where I live. Steve From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Wilson Sent: 03 October 2007 22:51 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard "Or do you thin

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

No but you DO have an escalator at your local shopping mall because not everyone finds the climb up the stairs easy. Or should we remove the escalators and elevators from shopping malls too because they CHOSE to go to that shopping mall didn't they? Can you please use logic and sense? On O

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Andrew Maben wrote: > > On Oct 4, 2007, at 12:23 AM, Michael MD wrote: > > Opening the door to yet more lawsuits... > > > In 2000, Bruce Maguire's accessibility complaint against the > Olympics.comwebsite was upheld. Did this lead to a spate of "frivolous", > "discriminatory" lawsuits in Australi

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

> The question is, why should we force anyone to do it? Well the short answer is: because corporations won't do it without being forced. So if we want a non-discriminatory society, we have to force corporations to do good things. > No one makes his site > non-accessible out of discriminating moti

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

On 10/4/07, Matthew Cruickshank <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mark Harris wrote: > > I'm frightened you knew that, or even thought to google it... > > I've been waiting a while to post this again, so now will do... > > > > In a survey of attitudes and responses to audio description of TV and > > vid

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Mark Harris wrote: I'm frightened you knew that, or even thought to google it... I've been waiting a while to post this again, so now will do... In a survey of attitudes and responses to audio description of TV and video, the American Foundation for the Blind found that some respondents wou

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In 2000, Bruce Maguire's accessibility complaint against the Olympics.com website was upheld. Did this lead to a spate of "frivolous", "discriminatory" lawsuits in Australia? Did it lead to any improvement in accessibility of commercial, government or hobby we

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

On 4 Oct 2007, at 17:27, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I try to ensure my professional work is accessible, but I am far from being persuaded that legislation of this nature can ever be effective, without also being a burden on smaller sites, particularly those that are no longer actively maintaine

RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

> In 2000, Bruce Maguire's accessibility complaint against the Olympics.com website was upheld. > Did this lead to a spate of "frivolous", "discriminatory" lawsuits in Australia? Did it lead to any improvement in accessibility of commercial, government or hobby web sites in Australia? Did

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

On Oct 4, 2007, at 1:01 AM, Michael MD wrote: I think the best response to ignorance is education ... not lawsuits... But as Target chose to dismiss attempts at education? Obviously education is preferable to recourse to law, but education sometimes fails. That's how people end up in jai

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

On Oct 4, 2007, at 12:23 AM, Michael MD wrote: Opening the door to yet more lawsuits... In 2000, Bruce Maguire's accessibility complaint against the Olympics.com website was upheld. Did this lead to a spate of "frivolous", "discriminatory" lawsuits in Australia? As none of the advocates o

RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

eph Ortenzi > Sent: 04 October 2007 12:16 > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard > > Sorry I have to disagree some of these points. > Comments among your text >> > > On Oct 04, 2007, at 01:56, Steve Green w

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

This was a warning of others on WSG - not a threat by me. To get on the list you have to respond to a post by Chris Wilson in an intelligent reasoned way. He will then make some bah-hoo comment about your Website (because he can't defend himself by intelligent reasoning). This will then be seized

RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

> Jermayn Parker > 1992 > that is 15 years ago :shock: > surely its time for a new updated version that includes up to date web > version of rules etc. > > If you want businesses and websites to follow these standards > they need > to be update Because, you know...they've simply been ignori

RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

eph Ortenzi Sent: 04 October 2007 12:16 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard Sorry I have to disagree some of these points. Comments among your text >> On Oct 04, 2007, at 01:56, Steve Green wrote: > "can anybody help

RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

er 2007 23:58 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard Those are all well and good, but utterly useless in a global marketplace. Should I be under your countries guidelines? Mine? What if I'm international? All o

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

>> On Behalf Of Breton Slivka > >> Sent: Thursday, 4 October 2007 10:34 AM > >> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > >> Subject: Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard > >> > >> Target is a business, and they ain't in the business of &

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard [long]

Rimantas Liubertas wrote: I think these were mentioned in the part of the post you did not include in your quote... Interesting quoting tactics. Oh, please! Guilt by assertion? Jim Davies made no mention of taxes in his post. What he did say was: "Of course the private businesses should do

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard Target is a business, and they ain't in the business of making art. We are talking about a business that, despite one of the comments on that blog, HAS made a concious decision to exclude a portion of

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Target have a very clear understanding of the value of accessible design right now. any more. Steve -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian Chamberlain Sent: 04 October 2007 00:18 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: A: [WSG] T

RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Since I started it, I'll ask that we conclude the thread. Thanks to everyone for your input. The discussion was excellent and I now have some good ammo to use when debating this issue with others. I also see that the discussion has spread to other sites. Thanks again! >Anyone want to conclude the

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

of a civilised country that we do. At least where I live. Steve From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Wilson Sent: 03 October 2007 22:51 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard "Or do you thin

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

we do Chris, that's the point! Someone give Chris some glasses, he seems to be lost in some foggy soup! WE are so passionate about tthe proven improvements to he experience that we spend hours explaining it in great detail to clients and showing the FINANCIAL, BUSINESS CASE, LEGISLATIVE, COR

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

*SIGH* I know, that JAWS Activex/AD statement floored me, it really did How did he get on this list? Might be a newb like me but I though he'd know better than that. This is why it is taking me ages to recruit a LAMP developer who know who webstandards.org are and what they are for!

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Bless you Kat for a very intelligent and reasoned argument. On Oct 04, 2007, at 09:44, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Quoting Or Golan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: First things first. I am a complete and total grammar snob; I think it is because I see myself as a designer. Punctuation is important, as

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Two mistakes. As already mentioned, they do, in legislation, need to make the site accessible or at least show the attempt to, NOT to say "we don't want to so we won't". If they bar people who speak Spanish from the shop they are also being discriminatory, both to the Spanish they are barri

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Mike Brown wrote: [Mike - see, the problem is this guy is only a part-time web developer. If he was full-time, he'd totally have time and be able to solve the "verbalise the text into every spoken language" problem.] The funny thing for me was his later comment - someone else mentioned JAWS

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

there is a world of difference between a site I would love to redo when I have the time that was only meant as a portfolio site and one providing services to a very large population. But ultimately, I confess to having a bad site and am prepared to face the gauntlet of complaints. I am NOT

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

RalphNader legislatively proved that you cannot "budget" the risks involved in the 70's with the famous Ford Pinto debacle. they forgot to include the bad press or legal challenge when ignoring the rights of the community. On Oct 04, 2007, at 06:24, Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote: I really h

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

I thought legislature and regulation are constitutionally separate in the US? On Oct 04, 2007, at 06:01, Michael MD wrote: Speaking only of businesses int he United States, no government entity should be telling a private business what it must do and that includes telling a business it mu

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Matthew Cruickshank wrote: Karl Lurman wrote: P.s A braille issue of Playboy - is it perverted that I think this is a cool idea??! You know this exists right? http://www.banterist.com/archivefiles/000305.html [link is safe for work] I'm frightened you knew that, or even thought to

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Alas, it's the American way: Human rights and the constitution are vitally important (US only)- except when I'm turning a quick buck. On Thu, October 4, 2007 9:44 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Quoting Or Golan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > First things first. I am a complete and total grammar snob; I

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Quoting Or Golan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: First things first. I am a complete and total grammar snob; I think it is because I see myself as a designer. Punctuation is important, as is spacing and capitalisation. They do not hinder you, contrary, they promote your argument, as it makes you seem

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

On 4 Oct 2007, at 08:33, Rimantas Liubertas wrote: Speaking only of businesses int he United States, no government entity should be telling a private business what it must do WHAT? with that one line you have just summarised all that is strange about America. Private business is above the l

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

even if making their site accessible to the blind costs target 0 dollars and 0 work, even if they need to just flip a button and bang - their site is accessible, it doesn't mean the law should force them to do it. what i really don't understand is why did the blind people sued target..if target do

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

> > Speaking only of businesses int he United States, no government > > entity should be telling a private business what it must do > > WHAT? > > with that one line you have just summarised all that is strange about > America. Private business is above the law? They can do whatever > they like? >

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

On 4 Oct 2007, at 04:33, Jim Davies wrote: Speaking only of businesses int he United States, no government entity should be telling a private business what it must do WHAT? with that one line you have just summarised all that is strange about America. Private business is above the law?

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Careful... "You vill also go on ze list!" On Thu, October 4, 2007 7:28 am, Joe Ortenzi wrote: > yes for an old site I no longer need. but been too busy fixing sites > that people actually need and use. > > fair nuff. you gonna sue me? > > > On Oct 3 2007, at 23:33, Chris Wilson wrote: > >> >> If

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Russ, time to step in the ring perhaps? On 10/4/07, Joe Ortenzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > yes for an old site I no longer need. but been too busy fixing sites that > people actually need and use. > > fair nuff. you gonna sue me? > > > > On Oct 3 2007, at 23:33, Chris Wilson wrote: > > If you ar

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

yes for an old site I no longer need. but been too busy fixing sites that people actually need and use. fair nuff. you gonna sue me? On Oct 3 2007, at 23:33, Chris Wilson wrote: If you are going to argue for standards and accesability, follow your own advice first. Captain table layout o

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

> Well that's a matter of opinion (preferably a matter of legal opinion). The thing is, it really should be, but right now, there aren't many laws written that protect much of what occurs online (read as: none). Sometimes I am glad thats the case however. I bet everyone around here has a website

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Steve Green wrote: "I suspect that this lawsuit was premature" The WCAG were published 8 years ago. How long should we wait? I don't know when Section 508 came into law but the UK's DDA was passed in 1995. Seems like long enough to me. 508 was 1998. WCAG was 1999 Target came online in 1997? IE

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

No but you DO have an escalator at your local shopping mall because not everyone finds the climb up the stairs easy. Or should we remove the escalators and elevators from shopping malls too because they CHOSE to go to that shopping mall didn't they? Can you please use logic and sense? On O

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

I really have to wonder just how ignorant Target really is, or was the decision to implement or act based on a calculated risk. I believe many larger corporations will make some decisions based on the probability of the plan backfiring (or them getting caught) versus the plan's profitability. A

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Karl Lurman wrote: Frankly, Target didn't break any *existing* law, Well that's a matter of opinion (preferably a matter of legal opinion). P.s A braille issue of Playboy - is it perverted that I think this is a cool idea??! You know this exists right? http://www.banterist.com/archi

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Speaking only of businesses int he United States, no government entity should be telling a private business what it must do and that includes telling a business it must provide health coverage, or spend a certain percentage on it and what the covereage must include. If that business accepts gov

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Sure Target should make a website to some kind of accessibility standard. They should, but that doesn't mean that if they don't, I should be able to sue them - good ol American style. Instead, I should just take my custom to a website that I CAN use with my copy of Jaws (or whatever the "standard"

RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

> Not every website or even company is run by a large corporation ... not > everyone has lots of cash to spend on lawyers... You can be sued for lot's of reasons. Laws are in place to protect people. You break them, you run the risk of getting sued. >From Title III of the Americans with Disabi

Re: Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

> Which idea of accessability should be imposed? Yours? Mine? Certainly > not a > judge who likely has no concept of the situation or technology. Cases > like > this lead to red blooded legislation that takes far too long to fix, and > even longer to repeal. Why didn't you just say this at the

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

So you reckon that businesses should have all the rights of a person, but none of the responsibilities? On 10/4/07, Jim Davies <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > I'm with Chris on this one. > Speaking only of businesses int he United States, no government entity > should be telling a private busin

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

One thing most people are missing is that with HTML1.0 the www was accessible to a screenreader, there was no images, no tables etc. The only way to make it inaccessible to any members of the community was badly written or organised content. Since that time a bunch of new features have been added

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

A private company should be able to do whatever the hell they like. Suit is without merit and frivolous. What's next, suing vehicle manufacturers for not >providing a braille manual? I'm all for accesability, but there is no reason it should be mandated, and lack of is in no was discriminatory.

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

On Thu, 4 Oct 2007 01:15:18 pm Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: > ... to providing the ability to enter the store. Should every store > in the world be forced to provide a ramp for wheelchair access? No. Sorry, but this is wrong. This is the exact reason for disability legislation, every

RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard [SEC=UNOFFICIAL]

to a culture where a company's website needs are well-resourced and noticed by management. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim Davies Sent: Thursday, 4 October 2007 1:33 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: A: [W

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

On 10/3/07, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Should every store in the world > be forced to provide a ramp for wheelchair access? No. Is it logical to do > so for the large stores that serve thousands of people every day? Yes. But > just because it is a logical thing t

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

I'm with Chris on this one. Speaking only of businesses int he United States, no government entity should be telling a private business what it must do and that includes telling a business it must provide health coverage, or spend a certain percentage on it and what the covereage must include.

RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

> On 10/4/07, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Whether their decisions were right or wrong in our eyes is not the > point. > > They have got the right to make those decisions because they are a > private > > company. > > > > Do they have that right? Are you sure?

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

1992 that is 15 years ago :shock: surely its time for a new updated version that includes up to date web version of rules etc. If you want businesses and websites to follow these standards they need to be update In Australia, for example, web accessibility hinges on the Disability Act of 19

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

On 10/4/07, Chris Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Speaking of ' logical fallacy' > > If you have an argument, make it. Don't assume that just because you think you're clever and right, that everyone else automatically will too. On 10/4/07, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] <[EMAIL PROTE

RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

e Sent: 04 October 2007 02:23 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard Chris Wilson wrote: > > I think my point is being missed entirely. I completely support > standards and accesability, but not at this cost. Should target >

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Chris Wilson wrote: I think my point is being missed entirely. I completely support standards and accesability, but not at this cost. Should target improve their site? Yes. Should the be required to by a court? No. No you're point wasn't missed. I agree with you. In fact my first thought/

RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

> -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Breton Slivka > Sent: Thursday, 4 October 2007 10:34 AM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard > > Target is a bus

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Speaking of ' logical fallacy' On 10/3/07, Breton Slivka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > These are some of the worst analogies I've ever seen. The target > website is not a work of art, it's not a mountain, it's not a car, > it's not a drive up ATM, it's not a building. > > Not to mention the s

RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

00:18 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard I must be having a stupid attack as I can't find anywhere on the site where I can register and then comment. As for the left / right - Accessibility/ Freedom agrument (it doesn't deserve

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

These are some of the worst analogies I've ever seen. The target website is not a work of art, it's not a mountain, it's not a car, it's not a drive up ATM, it's not a building. Not to mention the slippery slopes, like "Well if they force Target to fix their website, next they'll be forcing it on

RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard I think you'll find the people of Tibet didn't build Mount Everest and weren't even able to influence its design. Target chose to design their site the way they did, and a professi

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Perhaps the most amazing thing in all of this is Target¹s willingness to continue this fight into court. Aside from all the stunningly bad publicity of a major company standing up to fight a group of seemingly defenseless blind people, and the ridiculously poor example they set for all corporation

RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

There are a couple important points about the Target law suit. 1. Blind people were blocked from accessing online-only coupons and sale items. They couldn't get these discounts at their local stores. 2. Target was notified of the problems and given suggestions on how to fix them. Many of them were

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

2:51 *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard "Or do you think that your right to 'do what the hell you like' outweighs other people's right to be treated equally?" Be treated equally? They have to CHOOSE to visit

RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ian Chamberlain Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 6:18 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard I must be having a stupid attack as I can't find anywhere on the site where I can re

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Those are all well and good, but utterly useless in a global marketplace. Should I be under your countries guidelines? Mine? What if I'm international? All of them? What if country As guidelines are incompatible with country Bs... Or should legislation hinge on guidelines proposed, created, and man

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

> A private company should be able to do whatever the hell they like. > Suit is without merit and frivolous. What's next, suing vehicle > manufacturers for not providing a braille manual? I'm all for > accesability, but there is no reason it should be mandated, and lack > of is in no was discrimin

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

ial market. Seems plain dumb to me. - Original Message - From: "Mark Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 11:47 PM Subject: Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard Julie Romanowski wrote: > I don't know how many of you

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

http://26bits.com/ An accessible site shouldn't make everyone think they've gone blind. On Wed, October 3, 2007 11:56 pm, Chris Wilson wrote: > bigeasyweb.co.uk ? > > There is no reason why an accessible site should cause blindness. > > On 10/3/07, Stuart Foulstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Something which is very important to consider when thinking about Malkin's comments and this court case, is that Target stores (an most other physical stores) are near completely inaccessible to the blind. These comments are from Neil Jarvis, a spokesperson on accessibility and a completely bli

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Oh, this mailing list has been stagnant for quite some time, needs a good argument if you ask me. :) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard -ADMIN

ADMIN OK, lets keep this discussion civil and productive, people! Russ Admin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTE

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

"As it happens, a Braille version of a publication is one of the least useful things you can do. In the UK only 2% of registered blind people read Braille." How many web users are disabled to the point of using screen readers (anyone using it by choice not by necessity doesn't count, that's their

RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Harris Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 5:47 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard Julie Romanowski wrote: > I don't know how many of you are familiar with Michelle Malkin. S

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

> Better yet, since not everyone can see, lets require > all publications to include a braille copy Copyrighted publications in the US are copied to Braille for the most part (with copyright holder's permission) by the Library of Congress. > I want to visit the summit of mount everest... I suppo

RE: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Steve _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Wilson Sent: 03 October 2007 23:01 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard Better yet, since not everyone can see, lets require all publications to include

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

"No, not madness. Instead, it would be a good way to bring art to audiences that might not otherwise know it." Yes, but once you start applying that logic inside legislated rules of presentation and usage (which is the issue here, or will be), a site can no longer be the art the artist desires. "

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

bigeasyweb.co.uk ? There is no reason why an accessible site should cause blindness. On 10/3/07, Stuart Foulstone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > On Wed, October 3, 2007 11:18 pm, Chris Wilson wrote: > > I think my point is being missed entirely. I completely support > standards > > and accesa

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Andrew Boyd wrote: My suggestion is that rather than cars it should have something to do with cats saying "Can I haz agsessibillitee?" :) I'm in ur CMS, changing ur links *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/g

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

If you are going to argue for standards and accesability, follow your own advice first. Captain table layout over here. You don't even have alt tags on your images. Hypocritical aren't ya? Taking bets as to how long before Goodwin's law kicks in. I

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Julie Romanowski wrote: I don't know how many of you are familiar with Michelle Malkin. She posted about the Target lawsuit today, and although she is an intelligent woman, she doesn't have a clue when it comes to web accessibility. Malkin doesn't have much of a clue, full stop. She is an Amer

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

On Wed, October 3, 2007 11:18 pm, Chris Wilson wrote: > I think my point is being missed entirely. I completely support standards > and accesability... This is patently untrue. You have no concept of accessibility and the standards and why they exist. >Should target improve their site? > Yes.

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

> Which idea of accessability should be imposed? Yours? Mine? There are clearly defined "ideas" of accessibility for most countries - such as the Web Content Accessibility Guidelines 1.0: http://www.w3.org/TR/WAI-WEBCONTENT/ Or Section 508 in the case of America: http://www.section508.gov/ In A

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Chris Wilson wrote: A private company should be able to do whatever the hell they like. Suit is without merit and frivolous. What's next, suing vehicle manufacturers for not providing a braille manual? I'm all for accesability, but there is no reason it should be mandated, and lack of is in n

Re: A: [WSG] Target Lawsuit - Please Make Yourself Heard

Chris Wilson wrote: > Better yet, since not everyone can see, lets require > all publications to include a braille copy, all musical > artists to provide a written transcript > of ever performance. That would of course be madness... > No, not madness. Instead, it would be a good way to bring art t

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