Re: [ZION] Cult of personality
At 12:01 AM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Marc A. Schindler wrote: Actually I had posted this because some people had voiced doubts about whether you could be a good member and a Democrat. This idea is often attributed to a well-known GA. A person can be a Democrat and a good Mormon, or he can be a Mormon and a good Democrat; but he cannot be both a good Democrat and a good Mormon. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Notice from Listowner
MStar, the service I use, hasn't been bouncing anything as far as we can tell. It's even allowed some messages which one would think MStar's filter would stop. (So-called adult messages. Why is it that mature and adult now mean anything but mature or adult?) But I FINALLY, FINALLY, FINALLY can read Zion messages again! It's only on the Topica (motto: We'll cancel your service when we darned well feel like it.) website, but it's better than nothing. I've had some notes sitting around, after conference, that I wanted to share (i.e. - get your thoughts on) for some weeks, and have been unable. I'll see if the website permits me to do that. *jeep! --Chet John W. Redelfs wrote: Re: Bouncing messages Dear Listmember, A number of you have been having trouble receiving list mail from time to time. Still others have been automatically removed from the list. For this I apologize. The problem in most cases is bouncing mail. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] High priests
Till writes: What??? I thought that was just the special grip that we use to keep each other from falling out of chairs when we fell asleep. ___ Oh, Till. It serves a far more important purpose than that. As you shake right hands, place two fingers of the left hand just inside the wrist to check for a pulse. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
At 12:03 AM 10/22/2002, Marc wrote: What difference does that make to the point I've been trying to make that it was US meddling that paved the way to his [Castro's] rise to power? We have no argument here. I agree. Although probably for different reasons. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. --Steven W. Mosher / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] First Presidency statement on war
On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 00:54:26 -0600, Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: No one has asked anybody to forgive terrorists. They deserve to be brought to justice Perhaps I am wrong, but my understanding is that we _DO_ have to forgive the terrorists. That doesn't, however, mean that they should not still be brought to justice and punished to the full extent of the law for their acts. Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - The holy hand grenade of email services / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High priests
At 08:48 10/22/2002 -0400, Patient noJ wrote: Till - every time we went over this handshake I tried to wake you up, but to no avail. I would have had your home teacher go over it with you, but we can only teach it in the HP group meeting. They sure were cool dreams, too. Something to do with all the people of the world. Can't remember for the life of me how it went, though. That's what they get for scheduling our meetings from 11:00 on. By PH I'm well into nap-time. Actually, my HT would need to show up first anyway! We had our Snake Conference this last weekend. Elder Pace told a story of Pres Hinckley: He starting to remind them that he's getting old. He never buys green bananas anymore! He says that one of these days he's going to be called home. They will have his body there in the tabernacle and thousands will come to see it. Then the brethren will come to close the casket. When they do, he's going to sit up, point his finger at them, and remind them that every investigator needs three things. . Till / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High priests have money
On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:54:03 -0600 Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that sincerely), so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are unlikely, for one reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're reasonably righteous, temple-recommend-holding active members) are highly unlikely to hold a position of line authority. Why are people like that ordained to High Priests. I know there's an implicit assumption here, so I'll make it explicit: I'm assuming that there are people in this set (I think I'm one of them). But I could be wrong -- it's an assumption. $$$ High Callings $$$ It's all about money, Marc. Money attracts and inspires more money and that is how it works. If you got money you're much more likely set yourself up for one them high positions that come available. People who have money are considered to be more successful then others and they are the ones that are usually considered by those praying about a new calling to be extended. The Lord just can't get his work done without the Almighty Buck! I've heard all the excuses that this isn't so but the bottom line is always the dollar. Oh well, the church is still true--aah, I think. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High priests
At 12:08 10/22/2002 -0600, M Marc wrote: My spouse is a Vulcan, and she's giving me the death grip. Till was Vulcanized once. To keep his brains from leaking out. Unfortunately, it was too little, too late Till who's too tired to go round and round on this, so just wheel me on out, but don't brake my belt 'cause my belly dunlop over it. Bet you think I heard that one on the radial, but it just keep spinning off of Till's rotor-tiller flat out. It sure was a good year. That's what you get for hanging out with people of my low caliper Can you stop beating that drum while I get my bearings I'll just go ply myself elswhere, Oh, my head, stop this biased tread ... Hs s s s s s s s s s s / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Cult of personality
I owe you a bit of an apology, I think. I went to the link this time -- I have to admit I was not aware there was a theory that the plane didn't actually crash. I merely assumed you were repeating a story I've heard often, that the plane was deliberately targeted because McDonald was on board (which to me sounded like saying that the Canadians were targeted by the Illinois Air National Guard because one of them was LDS). But now that there's an LDS presence there (including, as it happens, a branch right in Yuzhno-Sakhalinsk [http://www.gatheringofisrael.com/atlas/europe/russia/RUS_vladivostok.gif], perhaps we could ask the branch president to look into it :-) FWIW, just to repeat the straight line about this, or conventional story, or whatever you want to call it, the plane crashed in very deep waters of the Pacific (a large gulf, actually, iirc, called the Sea of Okhotsk, which the US considers to be high seas, but which the Soviet Union then and Russia now considers to be national waters, and SAR was called out the same reason they were when Canadian SAR was called out for the Swissair flight that crashed off Peggy's Cove, NS: to recover any human remains that floated to the surface. This is SOP, and the so-called rescue transcript on the website needs to be read with this in mind (I happen to have good 1st hand evidence of this: my cousin's husband is a Canadian air command captain and was, until recently, a SARTech based in Gander, NL -- he's now in Moose Jaw SK training to fly Hercs. Among other reasons for the change was a growing distaste for recovery operations) AFAI am concerned, the site's purpose is to sell a book. But when I get to the other side I'll look for any KAL 007 vets. Who knows. Steven Montgomery wrote: At 12:01 AM 10/22/2002, Marc wrote: Was he LDS? (just curious; I know the incident you're talking about. I also know there's absolutely no proof that he was taken out -- that's an old canard, although I'm not surprised it's still quacking in certain circles). To my knowledge Larry P. McDonald was not LDS. I actually agree with you that there is no proof that the Soviets targeted McDonald specifically but there is quite a bit of evidence that the plane did not crash and kill everyone. http://www.rescue007.org/ Btw, this particular site is run by Bert Schlossberg, an Israeli who has no connection with the John Birch Society. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. --Steven W. Mosher / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Cult of personality
A person can be a Democrat and a good Mormon, or he can be a Mormon and a good Democrat; but he cannot be both a good Democrat and a good Mormon. --JWR I can see that John has slammed the Democrat Mormons with his little jingle. So, if a Democrat can be a good Mormon but a good Democrat cannot be a good Mormon this means that a only a bad Democrat can be a good Mormon. Woe unto the good Democrats for they must turn from their ways and repent! Right John? Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] First Presidency statement on war
I agree. The term forgive can be ambiguous; in the moral sense we are to forgive everyone, but the term is often used in a secular sense of not bringing them to justice, as in dismissing their crime. And I wanted to make it clear that that wasn't what I believed. Scott McGee wrote: On Sun, 20 Oct 2002 00:54:26 -0600, Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: No one has asked anybody to forgive terrorists. They deserve to be brought to justice Perhaps I am wrong, but my understanding is that we _DO_ have to forgive the terrorists. That doesn't, however, mean that they should not still be brought to justice and punished to the full extent of the law for their acts. Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - The holy hand grenade of email services / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
Trouble is, where is the General Authority who disagrees with ETB regarding this particular issue, that of Fidel Castro being a communist? I haven't been able to find one. Perhaps there is a general consensus then? O come on Steven, get real. We don't even know which of the Presidential candidates the GA's voted for let alone which parties they think the world leaders are in. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Iraqi women
This isn't meant to justify the current regime of Iraq in any way, but is just by way of showing how complex a place the region we usually lump together as the Middle East is. Saddam Hussein may hate the US, but he's no Islamic fundamentalist (again, that doesn't mean he hasn't cooperated with them for his own purposes). Women have a more open role in Iraq than in many other countries in the region: http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20021022/UWOMEN/International/international/international_temp/1/1/29/ -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Voting and parties
Mark Gregson: You mean to say that you cannot vote in the US unless you register your preference? Is that true? And if it is, what's the point of it? Since your vote is secret, why register a preference? ___ I do not recall living in a state where you had to declare a party preference in order to register to vote. In the state where I now live, if you vote in a primary election, you vote only in the primary election of one particular party. You automatically become a member of that party and you cannot vote or participate in the other party's election. After the primary election (and any runoffs, as needed), anyone registered may vote in the general election in November (including those who did not vote in the primary election). This primary election law has some unusual consequences. A judge who had served well for 20 years as a Democrat was unopposed. He decided to vote for his friend, a Republican in their primary. Because he did this, he was ruled ineligible to be on the Democratic ballot, was removed, and another Democrat was appointed to take his place. In the meantime, the Republicans had not put up a Republican challenger, but now a different Democrat was going to walk into office unopposed. Because the law does not allow a Republican on the ballot this election, since a Republican primary election was not held, there will be an independent write-in candidate for whom folks may vote in November. It will be interesting. The state supreme court has upheld all of this as lawful and constitutional under state law. Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] The new public mall at Temple Square
Interesting article from today's SL Trib: http://www.sltrib.com/10222002/utah/9448.htm -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
Thank you. Steven Montgomery wrote: At 12:03 AM 10/22/2002, Marc wrote: What difference does that make to the point I've been trying to make that it was US meddling that paved the way to his [Castro's] rise to power? We have no argument here. I agree. Although probably for different reasons. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. --Steven W. Mosher / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] High priests
-Gary- The only person among Elders with keys is the Elders Quorum president. In other words, the only elder with keys is the presiding elder. Well, of course. And the only high priest with keys is the presiding high priest. Yet, his keys are limited. As are the bishop's or stake president's. He cannot perform most of his responsibilities without the okay of either the presiding high priest in the ward or the presiding high priest in the stake. Just as the presiding high priest needs the okay of his superiors to exercise his keys. He cannot authorize the ordination of elders. He cannot authorize the calling and setting apart of his counselors. Those are responsibilities (and keys) laid to the High Priesthood as those who officially preside. Not so. First, an elder holds the high Priesthood. Second, those keys reside only in the appropriate presiding high priests, not in the office of high priest. To preside over and hold all the keys of presidency, one has to be a high priest. No. Currently, one must be an apostle. A stake president cannot call and set apart another stake president. There isn't anymore salvation promised to a high priest as to an elder (as the MP is all that is required in this life), but eventually (presumably if not now, in the next life) one will have to be a high priest to preside over a presidency in heaven. You have already made this assertion. I just want to see some evidence of this claim. I guess you could say that elder does fulfill the minimum requirements for exaltation, at least in this life. But prior to us being kings and priests unto God and his Father we will have to obtain the right of presidency, which pertains to high priests in the high priesthood. Again, I would like more than your assertion that this is the case. Otherwise, why have the distinction? why not just have elder and leave it at that? Asking the question is hardly producing evidence. I could just as well ask, Why have deacons and teachers? Why have seventies? Or why not? The answer is the same: Because that is how the Lord chose to restore his Priesthood at this time. However, once exalted, one will have to have the right of presidency and to hold those keys, which keys belong to the high priest's office. Not so. There are two usages of the term keys that apply here, and your sentence above doesn't conform to either usage. The first is a key of knowledge, of the right to communicate with God by virtue of the Preisthood, such as DC 6:28, the keys of translation. The Aaronic Priesthood holds the keys of the ministering of angels; the Melchizedek Priesthood holds the key of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God (DC 84:19) and the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church (DC 107:18). These keys belong to the Priesthood itself, not to any particular office therein, and all those who hold and honor the Priesthood they hold have access to these keys. The second usage of the term keys is the right of presidency. These keys reside in the presiding authority, be he deacon, teacher, bishop, elder, high priest, or apostle. These keys are often associated with an office; however, no office of the Priesthood confers such keys on those ordained to the office. Rather, the keys are explicitly conferred on those called as leaders. You seem to believe that the office of high priest is both eternal (which I see no evidence for) and also the highest office (which is demonstrably false). I have never heard taught by any authorized person the idea that all men must eventually be ordained to the current office of high priest in order to achieve exaltation. I believe this to be a false precept. If you can substantiate it with something other than your say-so, I'd love to come to understand. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Voting and parties (was Re: Cuba and Castro)
-Marc- In the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent -- as I recall the rules vary considerably from This is not correct. -Mark- What? You mean to say that you cannot vote in the US unless you register your preference? Is that true? No, it is not true. Many states do require you to register in order to vote in the primaries, though. And if it is, what's the point of it? To make sure the Democrats in an area don't band together and elect a Republican candidate who can't possibly win the general election, and vice versa. Since your vote is secret, why register a preference? In a primary, you may only vote within your registered party if you live in a state with such rules. Some states don't have any such rules, which I consider to be a mistake (the lack of such rules, I mean). As to voting or supporting a party: I'm not sure that I follow what Elder Jensen was saying. What's the point of voting for a party if you don't accept their policies? Obviously, I can't speak for Elder Jensen, but I suspect the general authorities are concerned about the lack of opposition to the Republicans in Utah. This lack of political balance allows the Republicans to bend the rules and control state politics without an effective counterbalance. Personally, I'm not sure that's so much worse than the perpetual gridlock you so often get with more balanced state legislatures. In any case, it is vastly preferable to having a bunch of Democrats in charge. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] High priests have money
I think I see your point, even past the tongue in your cheek, and hadn't thought about that. The Lord needs a pool to draw from, and the HP are that pool, so whether any given HP is or is not eventually called to what I keep calling a posiiton of line authority (to use a secular term) is irrelevant. Is that what you're saying? It makes sense to me. In fact, it reminds me in many ways of a talk BRMcC gave in, iirc, 1975, at a Friday Forum at the U of Utah Institute of Religion. He said there were more than enough men in the Church who were spiritually competent to be GAs, but the Church also needs secular skills of leadership, management and experience (sometimes in specialized areas, and here I think of 2 of my fellow nationals, Alexander Morrison, an Africa man and N. Eldon Tanner, who is largely credited with saving the Church's finances in the early 60s. Both of them were fast-tracked into GA-hood, if I can put it that way). Paul Osborne wrote: On Mon, 21 Oct 2002 18:54:03 -0600 Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that sincerely), so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are unlikely, for one reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're reasonably righteous, temple-recommend-holding active members) are highly unlikely to hold a position of line authority. Why are people like that ordained to High Priests. I know there's an implicit assumption here, so I'll make it explicit: I'm assuming that there are people in this set (I think I'm one of them). But I could be wrong -- it's an assumption. $$$ High Callings $$$ It's all about money, Marc. Money attracts and inspires more money and that is how it works. If you got money you're much more likely set yourself up for one them high positions that come available. People who have money are considered to be more successful then others and they are the ones that are usually considered by those praying about a new calling to be extended. The Lord just can't get his work done without the Almighty Buck! I've heard all the excuses that this isn't so but the bottom line is always the dollar. Oh well, the church is still true--aah, I think. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
Although I don't agree with John's terminology and system of reference in this regard, logically speaking I don't see why he'd have to take back his accusations. It's still a civic duty to vote -- that's clear LDS doctrine as far as I know (okay, I'm extrapolating from the 12th AoF, but the point is I don't think it's a controversial view). Paul Osborne wrote: Sounds reasonable to me. Wouldn't it be a gas to learn that President Hinkley did in fact vote for Bush? I wonder what JWR would say then? Would he then take back his Gadianton accusations? Paul O -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Tweaking Canada
Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Marc- I think it's time I correct an impression that I somehow have an anti-US bias. [...] I am by nature a bit of a contrarian [...] the US is the superpower de jour. A century ago I would have been anti-English so to speak. Let's see if I understand what you wrote. Here is what I heard: I am not anti-US. Rather, I am anti-Big-Kahoona, and the US is the Big Kahoona right now. Please confirm if I have actual reason to laugh, or if I've somehow misunderstood you. I think my original post was clear enough that it doesn't need further clarification. telepathic comments deleted -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Voting and parties (was Re: Cuba and Castro)
Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Marc- In the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent -- as I recall the rules vary considerably from This is not correct. Please don't interrupt. If you read the whole post, I made clear that this was to vote in party conventions -- what you call primaries. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re:RE: [ZION] Voting and parties
-- Larry Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Mark Gregson: You mean to say that you cannot vote in the US unless you register your preference? Is that true? And if it is, what's the point of it? Since your vote is secret, why register a preference? ___ I do not recall living in a state where you had to declare a party preference in order to register to vote. In the state where I now live, if you vote in a primary election, you vote only in the primary election of one particular party. You automatically become a member of that party and you cannot vote or participate in the other party's election. -- val: That is how it is here in Indiana--for the primary, we must declare a party, and then the voting machine is actually locked for the other party. It's frustrating to me, because we only get two choices here for the primary--Republican or Democrat. We do not have an Independent choice. And, for the record John ;-) I am a good Mormon Democrat (put the modifer where you will). The Republicans in my area are corrupt money grubbers. They could care less about me or any other John Q. Public type--just see who can line their pockets the best. Our current Republican mayor is an idiot. I even told him to his face, in a city council meeting, that I do not like him and my role as a registered Democrat is to find fault with everything he does. I must tell you, to put this into context, that it was a hearing on a new anti-porn city ordinance that I was STRONGLY in favor of, so after I had my say to the mayor, I conceded that I agreed with him on this (even though I know it was the City Council who initiated it). I will never forget the shocked look on his face as the standing-room-only crowd roared. The funny part, really, was that in that entire room, only one person spoke against the ordinance--the ACLU lawyer. I had the unfortunate luck to be seated next to him. Turns out he went to school with my brother yadda yadda yadda. After I spoke, he wouldn't say word one to me. Funny thing--politics is. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Tweaking Canada
-Stephen- Let's see if I understand what you wrote. Here is what I heard: I am not anti-US. Rather, I am anti-Big-Kahoona, and the US is the Big Kahoona right now. Please confirm if I have actual reason to laugh, or if I've somehow misunderstood you. -Marc- I think my original post was clear enough that it doesn't need further clarification. Agreed. As I've shown above, your meaning was crystal clear. I was just trying to give you a chance to back out gracefully. telepathic comments deleted You're just jealous that I do it so much better than you. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Voting and parties (was Re: Cuba and Castro)
-Marc- In the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent -- as I recall the rules vary considerably from -Stephen- This is not correct. -Marc- Please don't interrupt. Oops. My bad. I had thought this was John Redelfs' discussion list, not Marc Schindler's lecture hall. Silly me. If you read the whole post, I made clear that this was to vote in party conventions -- what you call primaries. Wrong. Your first paragraph was: Being a 'member' of a party in our Westminster system means something different than it does in the U.S. In the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent -- as I recall the rules vary considerably from state to state, as to how the states elect their delegates to the party national conventions). So to say that my late father was a Democrat means that he was registered as a Democrat. As it happens, this is pretty meaningless, because the vote is secret, and you can vote for whomever you like. This paragraph clearly was referring to the general election, since you said affiliation was meaningless and that you can vote for whomever you like, something not possible in primaries. Only in your next paragraph did you go on to discuss primaries. Even if you had made clear that this was to vote in...primaries, you're still wrong. In no sense is it true that [i]n the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent). A great many voters do not register under any affiliation whatsoever, and some states allow participation in primaries without a declared affiliation. tweak Maybe you should read your own posts more carefully. Alternatively, you could admit when you're wrong...oh, never mind. No use dwelling in a land of fantasy. /tweak Tweakin' Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Voting and parties (was Re: Cuba and Castro)
Exactly. I was referring to state party conventions, what you call in US English, primaries. Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Marc- In the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent -- as I recall the rules vary considerably from -Stephen- This is not correct. -Marc- Please don't interrupt. Oops. My bad. I had thought this was John Redelfs' discussion list, not Marc Schindler's lecture hall. Silly me. If you read the whole post, I made clear that this was to vote in party conventions -- what you call primaries. Wrong. Your first paragraph was: Being a 'member' of a party in our Westminster system means something different than it does in the U.S. In the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent -- as I recall the rules vary considerably from state to state, as to how the states elect their delegates to the party national conventions). So to say that my late father was a Democrat means that he was registered as a Democrat. As it happens, this is pretty meaningless, because the vote is secret, and you can vote for whomever you like. This paragraph clearly was referring to the general election, since you said affiliation was meaningless and that you can vote for whomever you like, something not possible in primaries. Only in your next paragraph did you go on to discuss primaries. Even if you had made clear that this was to vote in...primaries, you're still wrong. In no sense is it true that [i]n the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent). A great many voters do not register under any affiliation whatsoever, and some states allow participation in primaries without a declared affiliation. tweak Maybe you should read your own posts more carefully. Alternatively, you could admit when you're wrong...oh, never mind. No use dwelling in a land of fantasy. /tweak Tweakin' Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] RE: Voting and parties
Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Val- And, for the record John ;-) I am a good Mormon Democrat (put the modifer where you will). Then I'm willing to bet you're not a liberal Democrat. Because of that, many other Democrats would certainly not consider you to be good. But I agree with you; it's possible to be a faithful Latter-day Saint and a good Democrat. Indeed, it's impossible to be a faithful Latter-day Saint and any other kind of Democrat. But in my judgment, you can't be a liberal Democrat, supporting the liberal Democrat party line, and still be a faithful, believing Latter-day Saint. Much as some, American and otherwise, Please don't define *our* language for us. You can demonize the word all you want, but please keep your etymological waste products to yourself. Liberal is still a perfectly fine word in the majority of the English-speaking world. might find that hard to understand, I think it's tautological. Stephen, we're both wound too tautologically, I think that's our problem :-) -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Cult of personality
At 12:25 PM 10/22/2002, Marc wrote regarding the website www.rescue007.org: AFAI am concerned, the site's purpose is to sell a book. But when I get to the other side I'll look for any KAL 007 vets. Who knows. I don't think the site sell's enough books to pay for itself. The reason Bert Schlossberg is interested in this subject is that he was the son in law of one of the passengers on the plane. Since he was closely connected to the Israeli Research Center for Prisons, Psychprisons, and Forced Labor Concentration Camps of the USSR, and its director Avraham Shifrin, Schlossberg was able to follow closely the revelations about KAL 007, its landing and the survival of those aboard. Interestingly enough former Soviet military personnel who started to immigrate to Israel kept up a steady flow of information Reports of survivors and other information about KAL007 began to flow into Israel when former Soviet Military personnel began arriving as immigrants and becoming citizens of Israel. He holds a masters degree near eastern studies and currently teaches Aramaic, Syriac and Hebrew at Israel College of the Bible. (See his short bio: http://www.rescue007.org/bert_schlossberg.htm) As I mentioned Schlossberg has no connection with the John Birch Society, but interestingly enough the JBS have maintained for years that there are many unanswered questions about what really happened to flight KAL007: http://www.thenewamerican.com/focus/mcdonald/kal/index.htm -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Secret combinations . . . are built up to get power, gain, and glory of the world. (See Hel. 7:5; Ether 8:9, 16, 22-23; Moses 5:31.) . . . Secret combinations brought down both the Jaredite and the Nephite civilizations and [have] been and will yet be the cause of the fall of many nations. (See Ether 8:18-25.) (President Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, Oct. 1989, Ensign, May 1989, p. 6.) / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
At 11:58 PM 10/21/2002, Marc wrote: Straw man, Steven. I have never tried to argue that Castro is not Communist, is not a dictator. We are talking right past each other. I'm admitting all the bad things you are saying about him, but saying that the US had a large -- indeed, the major -- part to play in paving the way for him to come to power. You could have prevented it by nurturing democracy but you chose instead to nurture tyranny. I don't care what colour you paint the giant bronze statue in the town square -- Communist red is the same as Fascist brown or Plutocratic green and gold in my books. Then what are we arguing about? Because I generally agree with your position here. Gadianton Robbers located in the U.S. *did* have a great part to play in Castro coming to power. Just as they played a part in the Bolshevik revolution and helping Mao come to power. Such was the general thesis in books such as, _None Dare Call It Conspiracy_, _The Naked Capitalist_, and others. -- Steven Montgomery [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nations are defined by their founders. George Washington set a standard of selfless public service and heroic private virtue against which American politicians continue to be measured - and found wanting - even today. --Steven W. Mosher / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] RE: Voting and parties
-Val- I am a good Mormon Democrat -Stephen- Then I'm willing to bet you're not a liberal Democrat. -Marc- Please don't define *our* language for us. Marc, I am talking to a fellow American here, not to an Aussie or a Brit. If your understanding of American politics too sparse to acquaint you with the commonly-used term liberal Democrat, then you should consider sparing yourself the embarrassment of demonstrating that ignorance in front of everyone. Liberal is still a perfectly fine word in the majority of the English-speaking world. Indeed, it is so in the US, too. But since this was a case of two Americans talking about American politics, the phrase had a well-understood meaning -- well-understood, that is, to those who understand American politics. Since you obviously do not, you would probably do well not to insert uninformed, meaningless etymological commentary. Helpfully, Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Voting and parties (was Re: Cuba and Castro)
-Marc- Exactly. I was referring to state party conventions, what you call in US English, primaries. Interesting. So, then, what did you intend to say when you wrote: So to say that my late father was a Democrat means that he was registered as a Democrat. As it happens, this is pretty meaningless, because the vote is secret, and you can vote for whomever you like. If you were referring to primaries, then why did you say that affilliation was meaningless, because...you can vote for whomever you like? This is clearly false, even in primaries. And you never did respond to the question of why your statement, [i]n the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent), was not false on its face, given that not all states require registration in a party to participate in primaries, much less the general election. Clarifyingly, Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
Steven Montgomery wrote: Then what are we arguing about? Who's on first, I guess :-) -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Voting and parties (was Re: Cuba and Castro)
Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Marc- Exactly. I was referring to state party conventions, what you call in US English, primaries. Interesting. So, then, what did you intend to say when you wrote: So to say that my late father was a Democrat means that he was registered as a Democrat. As it happens, this is pretty meaningless, because the vote is secret, and you can vote for whomever you like. sigh You know, this isn't rocket science. All you have to do is read, not cut and paste selectively in what appears to be a deliberately polemical way. I had already made my point about state conventions, then went on to write what you've quoted. Again you've quoted me out of context. This particular reference is to voting following the primaries. Was it that hard to figure out, or are you your own worst enemy when it comes to understanding what others write? If you were referring to primaries, then why did you say that affilliation was meaningless, because...you can vote for whomever you like? This is clearly false, even in primaries. And you never did respond to the question of why your statement, [i]n the U.S. every voter registers for a party (or as an independent), was not false on its face, given that not all states require registration in a party to participate in primaries, much less the general election. Because I thought it was a dumb question, if you really insist on an answer. If you want me to be tactful, give me room to be tactful. Clarifyingly, Stephen Be careful what you ask for. You might get it. Clarification, in this case. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] High priests
Gary said: There isn't anymore salvation promised to a high priest as to an elder (as the MP is all that is required in this life), Yep. but eventually (presumably if not now, in the next life) one will have to be a high priest to preside over a presidency in heaven. I don't think so Gary and neither does Bruce R. McConkie: Only an elder! Only the office which enables a man to enter the new and everlasting covenant of marriage and to have his wife and children bound to him with an everlasting tie; only the office which prepares a man to be a natural patriarch to his posterity and to hold dominion in the house of Israel forever; only the office required for the receipt of the fullness of the blessings in the house of the Lord; only the office which opens the door to eternal exaltation in the highest heaven of the celestial world, where man becomes as God is. I would say that you don't have to hold the priesthood to make it into the lower realm of the celestial kingdom and you don't have to be a High Priest to be exalted in the highest. I see the office of High Priest as pertaining to this earth only. The same with apostle too. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] RE: Voting and parties
Please don't define *our* language for us. You can demonize the word all you want, but please keep your etymological waste products to yourself. Liberal is still a perfectly fine word in the majority of the English-speaking world. I agree. The Republicans are trying to kill a perfectly good word just like certain people killed the word gay. I hope everyone has a gay weekend. :-)) ha ha ha Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
It was merely a rhetorical question. Oh. I'm a little dumb. ;-) Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Hindsight
OK. I was just wondering -- I won't argue the point. Paul Osborne wrote: Marc: Now this is an interesting thought. Do you really think this follows? (that the prophet's personal vote should, if it were known, be the example for the rest of us?) And how do you handle the fact that in any case this *can* only apply to a minority of LDS, since most LDS are not US? First, I only care about the US and me and the prophet are both US citizens. Second, I have to assume that the prophet carefully and prayerfully selects his candidate because that is what the First Presidency tells us to do and I know that they are not hypocrites but practice what they preach. And, since I'm lazy, if I knew who the prophet voted for I figure the thinking has been done and would vote the same. Sure, you betcha, I'd ride the prophet's inspired coattails. he he Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Bad feelings
Stephen, I don't want the last word in that sense, and I certainly don't want to leave a bitter feeling in anyone's mind. I think our problem is that we're talking past each other. It happens often -- it's human nature. Human language is ambiguous by nature -- it's not like a programming language. If I may be so bold, I think what you see me doing is persisting in making an argument in contradiction to what you have read in my earlier posts. From my p.o.v., what I see is that try to tell me what I said, rather than ask what I meant. May I suggest an approach for future bouts of intellectual arm-wrestling? I'll try not to keep pushing the issue if you, when you think I've contradicted myself, *ask* for an explanation rather than confronting me with your interpretation of what I wrote. This works the other way around, too. When you made your comment about liberals and referred to America and elsewhere my immediate, instinctive response was to remind you that the rest of the world (elsewhere) doesn't necessarily use words the way they're used in the U.S. It was only later, upon reflection, that it occurred to me that the term elsewhere might have been intended to mean that people outside the US might not understand that idiosyncratic usage, the way you and a fellow national were using it. I should have asked what you meant instead of instinctively responding the way I did. I'm sorry for that. As for the other points, I don't know what else to do. I am not anti-U.S. I think I've explained that well enough and don't know what else I can say. I certainly don't mean to offend anyone, and apologize if that's been the case. Stephen Beecroft wrote: Marc, this back-and-forth between us has long ago degenerated into name-calling and accusations from your part, to the point that I am no longer enjoying the correspondence and find myself tempted to respond to you in kind. That's silly, of course; there is no point in being on a discussion list that raises bad feelings. So go ahead and have The Last Word in the discussions. Claim you meant the opposite of what you said. Claim you said the opposite of what you said. Say that black is white, up is down, and Canada is south. Whatever. I've had more than enough of this discussion. Congratulations! Your perseverence has won you yet another round. But don't think this means I won't respond any more to your comically anti-US remarks or point out glaring flaws in your logic. I'll just try to be nicer about it, and not to care too much when you refuse to admit to what you said and do a 180 while claiming you're facing the same direction as always. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Cuba and Castro
Stephen, for some reason I didn't get your post so I am replying to Marc's and yours. I take my civic responsibilities seriously and decided some years ago, to join a political party. My judgement was, the better party as far as my own beliefs and interests go was the ALP. I felt corruption (read, influence of the Gaddianton, or Rupert Murdoch, or both) was too much in the Liberal Party, that the Liberal Party had become the Tory Party by another name, and the common wealth would be ignored by such an organization. Joining the Democrats or the Greens would have been a waste of time, in my opinion. Incidentally, the Greens just this past week have won a seat in the federal parliaments House of Representatives for the first time ever. It was a by-election (something you USAmericans don't have, with your fixed terms) and the normally strong Labor seat in Wollongong went to the Greens on preferences. (a different way of counting votes). Labor is shell shocked, the Liberals couldn't have a bigger grin (they didn't run a candidate). Politics is never dull. I don't always win my battles within the party, but at least I get a chance, and no one is lining my pocket or appealing to my base instincts of greed. There you go, I think my TR is in tact and my salvation. How many members do nothing, when it comes to civic duties and responsibilities, in spite of encouragement from our prophet's and apostles, and what the scriptures tell us? Clifford M Dubery - Original Message - From: Marc A. Schindler Sent: Wednesday, 23 October 2002 06:21 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ZION] Cuba and Castro As might your post wrt the list's charter :-/ If, otoh, he takes Pres. Jensen's approach, he works as a force for good from within, then he's following the brethren's counsel. Stephen Beecroft wrote: -Clifford- Well well well, what a discussion about whether Castro was a communist as before the revolution or even earlier. One would think this some how negates his concerns about the poverty of his people and the domination of his country by US corporations Yes, I suppose one might think that, if one had not been paying attention to the thread of discussion. If being a Democrat in the US is a threat to ones worthiness, where does that put me, a member of the Australian Labor Party? If your membership in the Australian Labor Party puts you in support of deleted and of expanding the influence of the deleted lobby, then I would say that puts you in a very precarious position indeed. Stephen -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland “We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated…To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise one’s unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action.” – Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in “The Peloponessian Wars” Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / REE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Cuba and Castro
Clifford M Dubery wrote: Stephen, for some reason I didn't get your post so I am replying to Marc's and yours. I take my civic responsibilities seriously and decided some years ago, to join a political party. My judgement was, the better party as far as my own beliefs and interests go was the ALP. I felt corruption (read, influence of the Gaddianton, or Rupert Murdoch, or both) was too much in the Liberal Party, that the Liberal Party had become the Tory Party by another name, and the common wealth would be ignored by such an organization. Joining the Democrats or the Greens would have been a waste of time, in my opinion. Incidentally, the Greens just this past week have won a seat in the federal parliaments House of Representatives for the first time ever. It was a by-election (something you USAmericans don't have, with your fixed terms) and the normally strong Labor seat in Wollongong went to the Greens on preferences. (a different way of counting votes). Labor is shell shocked, the Liberals couldn't have a bigger grin (they didn't run a candidate). Politics is never dull. Australia has, in my opinion, the fairest method of proportional representation on the planet -- this is what Clifford is referring to when he talks about preferences. It means you can rank your votes first choice, second choice, and so on. We sorely need that kind of reform here in Canada. I don't always win my battles within the party, but at least I get a chance, and no one is lining my pocket or appealing to my base instincts of greed. There you go, I think my TR is in tact and my salvation. How many members do nothing, when it comes to civic duties and responsibilities, in spite of encouragement from our prophet's and apostles, and what the scriptures tell us? Clifford M Dubery -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] What's the point of high priests?
Don't feel bad, Stephen. You aren't the only antagonist on this list We have many that love antagonizing others. Perhaps we could use a different term though. Antagonize seems so negative, and there is just too much negativity these days. Let's try a nicer, more positive word, like, Taunt. Yeah, that's it! We have several people on the list who love to taunt others. Now, don't we all feel so much better since we no longer have antagonists on the list Of course, now we have to figure out what to do with all the taunting. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stephen: Of course not. Forgive me. I had assume a discussion list was for discussing things, which I was attempting to do. I am not unhappy with you, with Gary, or with anyone else. I do try to avoid empty me-too posts, but I did not realize that I always played the antagonist. Stephen Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Jimmy Carter - Nobel winner
Marc, it amazes me how deep you are on so many things, but then you go and say something that really shows you didn't fully think it through. An action by a person really doesn't mean much if it doesn't turn out as it should. Yes, Carter went to N Korea and supposedly defused the situation in 1994. He got them to sign a piece of paper promising to not build anymore Nuclear weapons. Now we find that piece of paper wasn't worth anything. It was a fraud, and if Carter's Nobel prize is based on that exercise in futility, then maybe he should give it back. Don't forget, the Nobel commission hands out prizes to all kinds, even Arafat has one. I'm just waiting for them to give one to Saddam Hussein, for his efforts in bringing about peace in the Middle East by financing the support of those poor suicide-bomber widows in Palestine. Reagan refused to sign papers, without verification. It makes sense to not give away your defenses without ensuring the enemy is also going to abide by that piece of paper. Carter never got any verification added to that piece of paper, so N Korea got billions from us in aid, and lots of help in improving their nuclear capabilities. He's supposed to be a world genius, and an ex president. You'd think he would have outgrown that naive stage years ago (like maybe during his 4 years as president), and not be now gasping in amazement that the communists lied to him (again). I'm glad he is against war. But he is a danger to the world, because he is too naive in his search for peace. Or is it that he's too willing to give up our freedoms in hopes of having peace? I wouldn't trust Carter to negotiate a treaty between peanut farmers and cotton farmers, much less have him making silly treaties like this. The reality is, the proof is in the pudding. A piece of paper means nothing. Nixon's withdrawal from Vietnam with honor was just as naive or stupid. Not long after the withdrawal, the South fell to the North. There was no with honor in the effort. Given the outcome, we should have pulled out in 1968 and saved 40,000 American lives and billions of dollars. George Sr's treaties with Iraq are also showing wear and tear. Iraq is laughing at the agreements. Of course we need to go back in, in order to cram that paper down Saddam's little throat! And Clinton's treaties for England/Ireland, Israel/Palestine, and several others are in the toilet, also. We're killing trees for no reason whatsoever, because no one is willing to put teeth into any of these treaties. You'll note I haven't spared either political party. The reality is, people are either trustworthy or they aren't. A wise man learns to quickly recognize just who is going to play nice and by the rules, and who isn't. Any honest historian would have told you that the Palestinians and N Koreans and Iraqis would not keep their promises, unless it was beneficial to them. How? Because history shows a pattern of lies and deceit. the leopard does not change his spots easily. There are only two types of events that have gotten people to actually change: conversion to the gospel, and total humiliation through an all-out war. Germans and Japanese aren't militarily aggressive anymore, because they were so devastated in war, it changed their world-view suddenly. It took being shell-shocked as bad as they were in Dresden and Hiroshima, to make serious changes. We either have to convert these terrorist nations to the gospel to get them to change, or we need to bomb them into the Stone Age, then rebuild them in our likeness. A piece of paper just will not do. Unless it gives the bad guy a mean paper cut And Carter isn't an American. He's a wacko. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: Incidentally, just to twit those who belittle Jimmy Carter's long crusade against war, it was Carter who went to Pyongyang about 6 or 7 years ago and defused the last dangerous situationt here. Maybe Bush should use Carter this time, too ;-) Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Have you found Jesus?
There is a news story out that a private collector has shown an ossuary (stone box that holds the bones of a dead person), with the Aramaic inscription: James, son of Joseph and brother of Jesus. This dates to about 70 AD, about the time that James the founder of the Christian Church in Jerusalem was killed (62 AD). Andre Lemaire, a world reknowned philologist (ancient languages), says that the inscription dates to the right time frame. Also, Jews only used ossuaries from 20 BC to 70 AD, when the Romans destroyed Jerusalem. Now, the three names were very popular among Jews in that timeframe, so we do not know for certain if it is the Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ or not. However, there probably aren't too many James with a father Joseph and brother Jesus. Also, it is very uncommon to name one's brother on an ossuary, unless the person was known for something. Jesus Christ qualifies. So, this may become the first non-New Testament evidence that Jesus actually lived. Yes, there is a reference in Josephus, but most think that was added later by Christians. Besides that, the earliest mentions of Christ aren't until the 2nd century AD. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Stop kicking the stuffing out of Turkey
At 01:44 PM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Paul Osborne wrote: O come on Steven, get real. We don't even know which of the Presidential candidates the GA's voted for let alone which parties they think the world leaders are in. So how come we know where President Benson stood on these issues? --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] RE: Voting and parties
At 09:09 PM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Stephen Beecroft wrote: But in my judgment, you can't be a liberal Democrat, supporting the liberal Democrat party line, and still be a faithful, believing Latter-day Saint. Much as some, American and otherwise, might find that hard to understand, I think it's tautological. I am of another opinion. A liberal Democrat is a socialist, and in no way can a socialist be considered a good Mormon. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re:RE: [ZION] Voting and parties
At 08:43 PM, Tuesday, 10/22/02, Val wrote: And, for the record John ;-) I am a good Mormon Democrat (put the modifer where you will). The Republicans in my area are corrupt money grubbers. They could care less about me or any other John Q. Public type--just see who can line their pockets the best. For the last couple of years I've been toying with the idea of becoming a Democrat, although as a conservative and Constitutionalist I don't imagine I would be a very good Democrat. But the way I look at it, the Democrats need all the help they can get when it comes to understanding the issues. Normally they vote with their heart and not with their brains. As for corruption, that is one of the reasons I am considering abandoning the Republican. If two men are equally corrupt, I will generally despise the one that is the more hypocritical about it, and that is usually a Republican. Still my little jingle holds true. I would be a bad Democrat because I am conservative. I just wish that some of the Republicans were. This last election settled it for me. When the people in this country start thinking that Bush is a conservative, I know that the ideological battle has been lost in a complete rout. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Maybe in order to understand mankind, we have to look at the word itself: Mankind. Basically, it's made up of two separate words - mank and ind. What do these words mean ? It's a mystery, and that's why so is mankind. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] RE: Voting and parties
Now, now, Marc. Giving you the last word doesn't mean giving you license to misquote and make stuff up. To wit: You used the phrase [here] and elsewhere. It was the elsewhere that I was taking objection to. This is untrue. I did not use the phrase and elsewhere, as you yourself go on to admit: Your original: Much as some, American and otherwise, might find that hard to understand, I think it's tautological. And it's true. Many, both American and otherwise, find it hard to understand that one cannot be a faithful Latter-day Saint and a liberal Democrat -- meaning, of course, a supporter of the liberal element of the US Democratic Party, as is obvious from context. You appear to be a shining example of exactly that fact, since you seem not to admit the rather obvious truth of the statement (obvious to some of us, at least). In any case, I made no explicit or implicit claims about word meanings elsewhere other than the US. Feel free to have the last word, but don't use that opportunity to put words in my mouth. Stephen / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] RE: Voting and parties
Sorry, you're right -- you wrote otherwise. But I don't see that it makes any difference to my ultimate point. In any case, I've admitted that I should have asked you what you meant before I responded, so you still have a point. Stephen Beecroft wrote: Now, now, Marc. Giving you the last word doesn't mean giving you license to misquote and make stuff up. To wit: You used the phrase [here] and elsewhere. It was the elsewhere that I was taking objection to. This is untrue. I did not use the phrase and elsewhere, as you yourself go on to admit: Your original: Much as some, American and otherwise, might find that hard to understand, I think it's tautological. And it's true. Many, both American and otherwise, find it hard to understand that one cannot be a faithful Latter-day Saint and a liberal Democrat -- meaning, of course, a supporter of the liberal element of the US Democratic Party, as is obvious from context. Sorry, but it was not obvious to me. Chalk it up either to the ambiguity of human language, or my own lack of cognitive skills. You appear to be a shining example of exactly that fact, since you seem not to admit the rather obvious truth of the statement (obvious to some of us, at least). In any case, I made no explicit or implicit claims about word meanings elsewhere other than the US. Feel free to have the last word, but don't use that opportunity to put words in my mouth. Deal. Thanks for a friendly resolution. Stephen -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland We do not think that there is an incompatibility between words and deeds; the worst thing is to rush into action before the consequences have been properly debated To think of the future and wait was merely another way of saying one was a coward; any idea of moderation was just an attempt to disguise ones unmanly character; ability to understand a question from all sides meant that one was totally unfitted for action. Pericles about his fellow-Athenians, as quoted by Thucydides in The Peloponessian Wars Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] High Priests
It is partially an issue of maturity/age: placing those who have not had a line authority position requiring HP status, into the HP quorum/group, in order to strengthen the individual and also to strengthen the quorum. This happens depending upon the make up of the quorums/groups in a ward/branch. If a unit has tons of MP, then there's no problem in moving a mature member into the higher quorum, where that person will fill more comfortable. Secondly, the reality is: training in the elder's quorum tends to be on a more basic level, due to the fact that one has all the newly baptized 3 month elders and adult aged priests in the quorum. The HP quorum, besides getting the needed sleep, should also be getting a higher level of doctrinal teaching. BTW, the sleeping one sees us doing is actually the quorum receiving revelation from on high. We're actually in a trance ;-) Some strength needs to be left in an elder's quorum, but as long as there are a bunch of experienced 40-something elders in the quorum, it usually keeps younger brethren from opportunities of presidency and growth. I'm very glad to have lived in Montgomery all these years, as it has given me huge opportunities of growth in the quorums. I would have never imagined I'd be in a bishopric at 28 years of age, for example. Our elders quorums tend to be very young here, as there just aren't a lot of bodies, and so people quickly get called into positions of line authority requiring HP ordination. But it forces all of us to step up to the plate and serve. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: Okay, this is all very interesting and very useful (and I mean that sincerely), so let me ask another question: what about those of us who are unlikely, for one reason or another (assuming, of course, that we're reasonably righteous, temple-recommend-holding active members) are highly unlikely to hold a position of line authority. Why are people like that ordained to High Priests. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Tweaking Liechtensteiners
So, you are judging a small patch of Europe because you couldn't find an open restaurant? Have you tried doing that in Canada? I once had to cross three provinces in Canada to find an open restaurant! At least Liechtenstein has the presence of mind of being only 10 minutes from a good restaurant! Oh, and as for them being idealogues...It takes one to know one! K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: Just for Stephen's benefit, and to present a bit of fairness, I thought I'd write an anti-Liechtenstein post. I was there once. We tried to find a restaurant that was open but couldn't, so went on to Switzerland. It takes all of 10 minutes to cross this sorry excuse of a country. It's run by an archduke who in theory is a dictator. The locals tried to tell me that it wasn't really a feudal state, but they're all ideologues. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] I just hate it
Hopefully Marc and Stephen can remember to be Christians first, and right second. As for being dizzy. Maybe you need to not follow either. Perhaps they are both wrong, or both right. There isn't always a black and white answer. They are both giving good reasonings, however issues can go deeper than they have gone. Issues can even go deeper than they are able, because many issues are classified and they will not ever in this life know the reasonings for every American action. I think we can find questionable reasonings for every action made by the US, even in our own American revolution. It's easy to say we were in the right now, since we won. However, when you look at some of our actions against the loyalists, it was scandalous. My wife's ancestor was a Tory, and forced back to Scotland after living decades in Georgia/Alabama. In reality, the colonialists were rather unfair in their renouncing all taxation, since the French and Indian War was very expensive and England only wanted us to pay a portion of the costs. In the War of 1812, we actually had more reason to go against France than England, and probably should have. Then there's the Civil War (or War of Northern Aggression, or War between the States). Did Lincoln have the right to stop the secession of the Southern States? Did the South have the right to secede, and if they did, was the manner in which they did it lawful, or were they required to go through Congress and the courts? But, I could do the same for many of the Nephite wars, also. Nephi could be shown to be a very two-faced person, pretending to not want power, yet sneaking out in the middle of the night with a large contingency, and stealing the national treasures. So let's not be too judgmental on the decisions made by nations. We don't always know the full reasonings. We often only get one side of the story. And we often don't understand the entire environment within which decisions are made. I don't think America evil because it has made some bad decisions in war. I think it has made many mistakes, but then I think most of those mistakes were made in trying to do something better. Kind of like Woodrow Wilson in his efforts to save Europe by drawing new national lines, ended up creating national feuds that continue to this day. Do we condemn Wilson for making the attempt? Or do we realize that there were some things he just did not foresee. Do we condemn Clinton for shooting a few cruise missiles into Afghanistan and Sudan for terrorist actions, or do we realize that he was acting on the same level other presidents had done since the early 1970s? Do we condemn Canada for not becoming a world power in its own right and step in to be the world's police force, so we could sit back? I don't think so. Nor should we be condemned when the world continually throws that responsibility onto us, when we really don't want it. We've asked the UN to step in several times, then we have to step in to fix it. Sorry, I'm not going to be so harsh on people, simply because they are human. Show me some actual evil actions on their part, and I'll consider condemning those actions. But show all sides of a story, not just the history-shaded-one-color that some would have us see. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: I just hate it when Marc Schindler and Stephen Beecroft get too intense with each other. I usually ends in one or the other taking a lengthy leave of absence from the list. And of course, since their contributions are among the chief reasons this is such a good list, I really hate to see it. Both Marc and Stephen are debating in such fine style that I am undecided whose side to take. I am an American, not a Canadian, so on that basis perhaps I should move in Stephen's direction. On the other hand, I have been totally disgusted for the last 40 years by the way this once great nation deports itself on the international stage, so maybe I should move in Marc's direction. Then again I am a foaming-at-the-mouth anti-communist, so perhaps I should move towards Stephen. I'm starting to get dizzy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
[ZION] High Priest
Then you would logically follow from your argument that one wouldn't have to be ordained a god, king and high priest? That's not what I read in the scriptures. I read in Rev 1:6 and other references that we must be made kings and high priests unto God the Father. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Paul: I would say that you don't have to hold the priesthood to make it into the lower realm of the celestial kingdom and you don't have to be a High Priest to be exalted in the highest. I see the office of High Priest as pertaining to this earth only. The same with apostle too. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
