George Cobabe favored us with:
I am the new guy and perhaps I misunderstood when I read the rules, but I
thought that politics was a taboo subject. If not, then this list will be
very much more interesting, but nowhere near as uplifting as I was hoping.
George, I think that a list can be
Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
Obviously yes because we know from the Doctrine and Covenants that the
Founding Fathers of the United States were inspired men raised up by God to
rebel against Britain.
It actually doesn't say this. See below.
But it does say that the US Founders were
Stacy Smith favored us with:
Well, I'd like to know just how many such lists there are. Judging from
other lists on other subjects, there must be hundreds out there.
For a while I was the Open Directory Project editor in charge of listing
the LDS email discussion lists. There are 274 listed
Rick Mathis favored us with:
At 05:39 AM 12/17/2002 -0700, George wrote:
Boy - you lost me there - are you asking about abilities (to argue) or the
size of bullets (so as to end the argument)?
Yes.
I am in love with my Kalishnikov, 7.62x39mm. It is Chinese made and the
sweetest weapon I've
Stephen Beecroft favored us with:
It's one thing to say that current racial classifications are imprecise,
or getting blurred, or not useful for this or that purpose. All such
proclamations may or may not be true. But to say that race doesn't exist
is to be tautologically incorrect -- people
At 14:45 12/17/2002 -0700, M Marc St Stephan wrote:
to play the fool.
Stephen
Play the fool is not a scientific concept either ;-)
Hey, wait, that's my part! You'se guys can't be stealing my part ...
Till who even got a new costume for the next show
At 11:17 PM 12/17/2002 -0900, the BLT wrote:
It is true that Marc, like many Canadians, is a tad anti-American. But
believe me, there are a few here on the list that are pretty anti-Canadian
too.
But how could any rational man, having seen the brilliant documentary
Canadian Bacon be
Hey, wait, that's my part! You'se guys can't be stealing my part ...
Till who even got a new costume for the next show
In the spirit of Christmas, Till, I forgive you for tempting me to the utmost with
your provocative statements. That's a most humble forgiveness, too.
=
The gathering at the city council meeting last night was a zoo. I got
there about 6:00. The public comment session was supposed to begin at
7:00, but the crowd had already filled up two overflow rooms and was
winding down the corridors, and there were already many hundreds of
people
Day of Heckling on Plaza Thrusts Issues to Forefront
The scene earlier today on the Main Street plaza included street
preachers carrying placards and screaming their beliefs, sometimes
through bullhorns.
December 17, 2002
KSL News Specialist Carole Mikita reporting
Salt Lake City Council
Many thanks for the first-hand account. The story of what happened on the
easement, as reported on KSL is making the rounds of the Internet. Odd (well,
maybe not) that it takes idiots like Kurt Van Gordon to p*** in their own
manger, as my uncle used to say . KVG was the instigator behind most of
Is it true that Howard Shore, the composer of the music for The Lord of the
Rings, is a Canadian? Regardless, my hat is off to him. The music is one
of the best things about the movie. Of course, that is just my humble
opinion. --JWR
After all, it doesn't say the elect (like, say, a tall, young good-looking bishop)
*will* be deceived, it only says they *could* be.
Mark Gregson wrote:
Hey, wait, that's my part! You'se guys can't be stealing my part ...
Till who even got a new costume for the next show
In the
John W. Redelfs wrote:
Stacy Smith favored us with:
Well, I'd like to know just how many such lists there are. Judging from
other lists on other subjects, there must be hundreds out there.
For a while I was the Open Directory Project editor in charge of listing
the LDS email discussion
Yeah, and I think I made it even worse when I was trying to figure out how I got
the two dates mixed up, and the only thing I was thinking of that could have made
a neural short like that was de Tocqueville, but later I recalled that he made his
famous tour *after* the Revolution. So, I guess it
John W. Redelfs wrote:
Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
Obviously yes because we know from the Doctrine and Covenants that the
Founding Fathers of the United States were inspired men raised up by God to
rebel against Britain.
It actually doesn't say this. See below.
But it does
We don't have the same tradition of class action suits here like you do in the US.
Tort reform is a hot topic in the US these days, too, as I recall -- one of the
reasons was some particular damages that were awarded by juries in Mississippi
(the Loewen case comes to mind). Perhaps Tom can comment
Nici o problema - as the Romanians are fond of saying.
Gepff
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/18/02 01:53PM
Yeah, and I think I made it even worse when I was trying to figure out
how I got
the two dates mixed up, and the only thing I was thinking of that could
have made
a neural short like that was de
Are you saying that the following doesn't say the US saw it first?
The U.S. government has made copies of the Iraqi weapons declaration and
distributed them to the five permanent members of the U.N. Security Council and
other council members with expertise to assess the declaration for
After intense thought, Marc favored us with:
This is also true, but it's a logical extension of the first, not
something that's said explicitly to be inspired. I know it's a nit,
but I think the Lord uses historical events, he doesn't cause
them, else we wouldn't have free will*. His plan is
Gepff!?
I have no idea who that is - apparently he speaks Romanian too.
Strange...
Geoff
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/18/02 02:16PM
Nici o problema - as the Romanians are fond of saying.
Gepff
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 12/18/02 01:53PM
Yeah, and I think I made it even worse when I was trying to
I don't know. Tom, Mark?
John W. Redelfs wrote:
Is it true that Howard Shore, the composer of the music for The Lord of the
Rings, is a Canadian? Regardless, my hat is off to him. The music is one
of the best things about the movie. Of course, that is just my humble
opinion. --JWR
--
There was no misunderstanding - most everyone knew that you had erred. I
was just impolite enough to point it out.
Therefore it is I that must beg forgiveness for my rudeness in pointing out
error.
I will try to be more polite in the future, when you make other mistakes
regarding US history,
The funnest thing about interviewing at Microsoft are the famous (or
infamous) interview questions, of which you're likely to get at least
one per interview. A classic example is:
You have three closed barrels in front of you, one filled with black
marbles, one filled with white marbles, and
Be careful when you use Latinate terms: they are often more restrictive than LDS
doctrines. This is the problem with the term omnipotence. It's understood in a
mechanical way (that's one reason Latin is not a good language for religion; it
was better for armies and bureaucrats) ;-)
But that
Believe me, I don't mind being called to task when I'm wrong. Now, I have to
admit, sometimes I don't always agree I'm wrong, but that's a course of a
different holler.
George Cobabe wrote:
There was no misunderstanding - most everyone knew that you had erred. I
was just impolite enough to
Marc intelligently replied:
Be careful when you use Latinate terms: they are often
more restrictive than LDS doctrines. [...]
But that raises the philosophical dilemma of free will. We LDS
do *not* believe God is omnipotent in the sense the Romans
used this term -- we believe he's subject to
I think it is not doctrinal to assert that Heavenly Father is subject
to natural law in the same sense that we are. To put it thus
incorrectly reverses the attribution of cause.
God decreed the laws of the universe, and sustains them by the word of
His power--the laws are subordinate to Him.
New York has decided to go with a mixture of skyscrapers and memoria,
although the exact plan has yet to be chosen. The new towers will
surpass the Petronas Towers in Kuala Lumpur (currently the world's
tallest building[s]), although not, iiirc, one or two buildings proposed
for Shanghai and Hong
I can't say I told you so yet but Bush has announced today that
despite the omissions in the report on WMD delivered by Iraq to the UN
(and only today being given to the non-permanent members of the Security
Council, incidentally), war is not imminent.
I've been of the opinion since this issue
The real question is who created the law for this universe. Are the laws
for this universe, and this God, different from those of other universes?
If God was the one who created the unique laws for this creation, then He
would surely be Omnipotent in every sense of the word - Latin or otherwise.
-Marc-
No wonder Microsoft's spellchecker is so lousy ;-) (carabiners,
from a German word for carbine hook.
Ah. I had never seen/heard the term, and the guy (Russian)
called/spelled them carob-beaners. I wondered how that term had come
about. What's a carob bean, anyway?
But I had nothing to
Jim Cobabe wrote:
I think it is not doctrinal to assert that Heavenly Father is subject
to natural law in the same sense that we are. To put it thus
incorrectly reverses the attribution of cause.
Ah, there's a crucial difference there: that we are. I would agree with your
modified
-Marc-
We LDS do *not* believe God is omnipotent in the sense the Romans
used this term -- we believe he's subject to natural law,
Perhaps you believe so. I don't. God's word defines natural law. He is
the master, not the subject. That is why he is called the Lawgiver.
Stephen
Geoff FOWLER wrote:
I also agree that we do not understand *how* God's omniscience works.
However, any discussion of the attributes of God falls under what you
term as trying to fit God into a box we can understand. Since we are
not like Him yet, and hence do not understand everything He
Jim Cobabe wrote:
It is instructive that many of the revisionists who spin this deist
misinformation, primarily about Jefferson, are openly and dogmatically
promoting their own flavor of atheist or agnostic evangelism. There is
really no compelling documentation to support their arguments,
Stephen Beecroft wrote:
---
God's word defines natural law. He is the master, not the subject.
That is why he is called the Lawgiver.
---
Yes, I thought that was a significant point to emphasize.
Perhaps this is just another one of those silly, figurative notions that
unenlightened
-Stephen-
God's word defines natural law. He is the master, not the
subject. That is why he is called the Lawgiver.
-Jim-
Yes, I thought that was a significant point to emphasize.
Interesting that we independently arrived at a similar conclusion, even
using similar wording. Almost like we
Stephen Beecroft favored us with:
-Marc-
We LDS do *not* believe God is omnipotent in the sense the Romans
used this term -- we believe he's subject to natural law,
Perhaps you believe so. I don't. God's word defines natural law. He is
the master, not the subject. That is why he is called the
Give me some time John and I think I can demonstrate that this is not
necessarily so.
George
- Original Message -
From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Subject to natural law
Jim Cobabe favored us
I think it is hubris to imagine we should build towers still taller than
the WTC. Sure they can build them, but the experience with the WTC proves
that someone else can knock them down. What is the point? Why make
buildings a tempting target unnecessarily? I should think that the
builders
John W. Redelfs wrote:
It would have been nice if you had joined me in my protest, Marc. I don't
remember hearing a peep from you. There is a bishop in my stake who is a
longtime Mormon-L-er, and he didn't say anything either. Bob Westover
didn't say anything either. I wasn't so
You've said it much more coherently and succinctly than I did. Thanks. As I've
explained in a separate post to Stephen, it depends on what you mean by natural
law. There are, I think, two connotations, one an earthly (corruptible) sense
and one an eternal (incorruptible) sense, but not magic --
We'll give you enough time for you and JWR to become gods, but no longer. We're an
impatient bunch, ya know...
George Cobabe wrote:
Give me some time John and I think I can demonstrate that this is not
necessarily so.
George
- Original Message -
From: John W. Redelfs [EMAIL
Marc - it seems the question is not he definition of natural law, except as
it involves who created that law.
The question is: Did God, i.e. our God, create the natural law for his
creation or did He just transpose it from the overall eternal concept of
Natural Law.
Is every universe, form
Thanks for the additional insight. Looks like I was a bit out-of-date -- I was
stretching back to my bonehead philosophy class in university. But there must be
some kind of term for a belief in an *im*personal higher power. Any philosophers
on the list?
John W. Redelfs wrote:
This isn't quite
[Thanks to Scott Gordon at FAIR for bringing this to my attention]
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20021218_2241.html
Ex-Utah Rep. Owens Found Dead in Tel Aviv
Former Utah Rep. Wayne Owens Found Dead on Tel Aviv Beach; He Was 65
The Associated Press
WASHINGTON Dec. 18th
Wayne Owens, a former
John W. Redelfs wrote:
Power corrupts, and absolute
power corrupts absolutely.
Then, it must follow as night follows day that everyone on this list is lily
white, since if any of us had any power we wouldn't have the time to spend
on this email list!
Jon
This is all fine and dandy, Marc, but you sidestepped my question.
Do you drink beer? (And, while I'm at it, did you play Homer on the
series?) :-)
Jon
- Original Message -
From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2002 7:23 PM
Subject:
John W. Redelfs wrote:
---
The idea that he made all the laws included those by which he progressed
to become a God is a Protestant idea. It is akin to creating something
from nothing, which of course is impossible even for God.
---
One of the problems we encounter in discussing such ideas is
George Cobabe wrote:
Marc - it seems the question is not he definition of natural law, except as
it involves who created that law.
The question is: Did God, i.e. our God, create the natural law for his
creation or did He just transpose it from the overall eternal concept of
Natural Law.
God does what his Father did before him...
Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
Only $9.95 per month!
Visit www.juno.com
-Marc-
The problem arises out of the word natural, and is a limitation
of our language. By natural are we referring to the corruptible
telestial world, or are we referring simply to the fact that
there are higher laws which are natural but which operate in
*their* realms, and which we by
-John-
It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which
Heavenly Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him.
They are uncreate. And it was by obedience to these laws that
he because God.
My understanding follows Jim's quotation of Joseph Smith's teachings and
of
I would be surprised if any man or woman can name something that
God cannot do, whether because of the limitations of natural
law or anything else, that doesn't fall into this class of
false-by-definition.
Sorry for the weenie-speak. Let me try again:
I disbelieve that any man or woman can
-George-
Much of what is quoted by Sis Black is from a paper by LaMar
Garrard, God, Natural Law, and the Doctrine and Covenants
Brother Garrard may well have been my wife's and my favorite teacher at
BYU, even though we only ever had him for one class. When he came in the
first day, I thought
He cannot break the laws that He has agreed to follow.
He cannot break His promises to his children.
If he did so he would cease to be God.
Note that both examples are self limiting, decisions that He has to make and
agree to.
George
- Original Message -
From: Stephen Beecroft [EMAIL
Stephen - apparently you are not the only one who admires him as I found an
inordinate amount of references to his publication on the subject of natural
law. He was quoted by all sorts of people.
Thanks for reading the long post I sent.
George
- Original Message -
From: Stephen
Duct tape really is good for you...
http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id={C5BC794A-4AC7-4177-93A3-31E9EA95D88E}
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give lustre, and many
more people see
A rare column by Canada's funniest conservative [tm] which is deadpan
serious and with which I agree (that combination being what's rare, I
mean), on Henry Kissinger, Cardinal Law, and Trent Lott
http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id={F0F3B60D-1024-4F3C-8E75-9F9E177632CD}
--
Marc A.
Am I For or Against War in Iraq? Somebody Please Persuade Me, pleads
Globe and Mail columnist and Generation-X'er Doug Saunders, writing from
CFB Kingston (where my son has taken sigint training, incidentally, and
near where he's currently attending university):
I quoted you the exact wording that made my point. I do not need to spin
anything. Here it is again, since you keep deleting it in your responses, so
please either do me the courtesy of addressing the issue, or admit either apathy
(which is fine if you're tired of discussing it) or error:
George Cobabe wrote:
---
Then the discussion might be more profitable if we separated our
existing universe fromwell, whatever it is that transcends it.
We must do so to even begin to understand, or for that matter argue
over, such matters. It is the only thing that we are concerned with
You are probably wrong.
War is not imminent because we are not ready. We will be in about one
month.
Also, I believe that the statements Bush makes are directed at Saddam
primarily, and not at the US populace. I also believe that the US is trying
very hard to get a rebellion going in Iraq,
OK. How do you pronounce the word iron? Do you say I earn or do you
say I Ron or what?
Jon
- Original Message -
From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] Microsoft interview questions
There is a
They are all duly queued, waiting merely to be cued...
Stephen Beecroft wrote:
Ah, well. Cue the violins. At least I know how to spell
carob-beans.)
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Knowledge may give weight, but accomplishments give
I understand that we would be wary of talking about God in any limiting way. But
if you will permit me a bit of spin latitude on this, you can always turn the
question around and say that it was those bad bad Catholics who ruined theology
with their martial language, fit only to order troops and
Stephen Beecroft wrote:
-John-
It is my understanding of Mormon doctrine that the laws by which
Heavenly Father became and exalted being are coeternal with him.
They are uncreate. And it was by obedience to these laws that
he because God.
My understanding follows Jim's quotation of
Jim, as one hammer to another, you have hit the nail right on the head: these
words have baggage that we have to be wary of. I don't think any of us here are
really disagreeing with each other in substance (to use another word full of
ancient baggage), but only in semantics.
Jim Cobabe wrote:
Carob is a unique substance that has an appearance similar to cocoa. It
comes from the Ceratonia siliqua, an evergreen tree native to the
Eastern Mediterranean area. This relatively wild tree, which grows up to
50 feet tall, bears fruit at the age of six to eight years with a
greater abundance
I can agree that God is subject to 'natural law, but only in the sense
that He has created those laws and needs to maintain the integrity to obey
the same rules that He has created. If He did not honor His word or His law
He would cease to be God.
George
- Original Message -
From:
story no longer available - if you want us to read it you almost need to
copy and paste.
George
- Original Message -
From: Marc A. Schindler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: zion-l [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:55 PM
Subject: [ZION] Going, Going, Gone
A rare column by
Another interesting reference to this question--
God is the author of law, not its creation or its servant. All light and
all law emanate from him (see DC 88:13). Indeed, all kingdoms have a
law given; and there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the
which there is no kingdom; and
John,
I'm honestly not trying to promote Protestant doctrine. But there are
obviously some issues here that merit further consideration.
I am sure you realize that we are not necessarily covering new ground in
any of our discussions on this list. I have little doubt that the
people of this
Jon Spencer wrote:
You are probably wrong.
War is not imminent because we are not ready. We will be in about one
month.
So why did two complete naval battle groups start sailing *out of* the Middle East
earlier this week? Actually, this is an area where my prognostication has a weak
Jim Cobabe wrote:
I'm pretty clear on these particulars, and adding others day by day, as
I can manage.
One can't really ask for anything more. Good thing this is all good, clean fun,
eh?
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Knowledge may
Hmm. I was able to get at it. But just in case, I've cut-and-paste it at the end
of this post. Formatting may be a bit out of whack, but at least you'll have the
text.
George Cobabe wrote:
story no longer available - if you want us to read it you almost need to
copy and paste.
George
-
See, folks? You have a question, and there's always someone on the list who
a) knows the answer;
b) may not know, but knows how to find out; and even on occasion,
c) hasn't a clue but can concoct an answer with such an air of authority that no
one cares if it's right or not ;-) [Thanks, Jim]
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