Re: RMS
On Wednesday, 13 December 2023 14:30:37 IST Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > In the view of Lifnei iver, > > > > Recently RMS had shared an alleged PFLP affiliated organization calls to > > prevent arms deals to Israel, PFLP participated in the Simhat torah > > massacre. > > https://www.stallman.org/archives/2023-sep-dec.html#9_December_2023_(Legal_challenges_over_arms_exports) > > The organisation had excused the perpetrators of the Simhat Torah > > massacre. https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/21800.html . > > > > For my understanding RMS is actively assisting to the other side during the > > war against Israel. > > I suggest to write to him That would be a second Lifnei iver case in the same thread. IANAL, and because of that at this stage, I believe it is better to speak with someone who is well versed with the Israeli criminal law before suggestion such kind of action or following this advice. ___ Linux-il mailing list -- linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il To unsubscribe send an email to linux-il-le...@cs.huji.ac.il
Re: RMS
RMS (besides being a rather egregious person in general) is, in this case, neither supporting nor not supporting anyone's enemies. He's calling to reduce arms sales to a state that engages in wholesale slaughter of civillians, just like its enemies. ___ Linux-il mailing list -- linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il To unsubscribe send an email to linux-il-le...@cs.huji.ac.il
Re: RMS
> From: borissh1...@gmail.com > Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2023 13:48:13 +0200 > Message-ID-Hash: W5NHGXQZJVMKFFHYYY5PG4X74ONPMXEH > > In the view of Lifnei iver, > > Recently RMS had shared an alleged PFLP affiliated organization calls to > prevent arms deals to Israel, PFLP participated in the Simhat torah > massacre. > https://www.stallman.org/archives/2023-sep-dec.html#9_December_2023_(Legal_challenges_over_arms_exports) > The organisation had excused the perpetrators of the Simhat Torah massacre. > https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/21800.html . > > For my understanding RMS is actively assisting to the other side during the > war against Israel. I don't see how you understood that from a single line of text which just conveys a simple fact: an action done by PFLP. Maybe RMS does what you think, maybe he doesn't; to know for sure, I suggest to write to him and ask him to make his standpoint on this clear. Assuming that he is "actively assisting to the other side during the war against Israel" on such weak evidence runs the risk of making false accusations. And that is even before we consider the possibility that maybe he is with us wrt whether ours is a just cause, but disagrees with the actual methods and tactics. All of that should be cleared up by asking him a direct question. I know him well enough to assure you that you will get a direct answer. ___ Linux-il mailing list -- linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il To unsubscribe send an email to linux-il-le...@cs.huji.ac.il
Re: RMS
In the view of Lifnei iver, Recently RMS had shared an alleged PFLP affiliated organization calls to prevent arms deals to Israel, PFLP participated in the Simhat torah massacre. https://www.stallman.org/archives/2023-sep-dec.html#9_December_2023_(Legal_challenges_over_arms_exports) The organisation had excused the perpetrators of the Simhat Torah massacre. https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/21800.html . For my understanding RMS is actively assisting to the other side during the war against Israel. People should do with that information what they like. > On Wed, May 18, 2022, 15:31 wrote: > > > Hi Julian. > > > > On Wednesday, 18 May 2022 17:43:47 IDT Julian Daich wrote: > > > Hi, > > >RMS is coming to Tel Aviv. I am receving him. He is looking for a place to > > >give a prentation in a mayor university on Msy 31 st or June 1st. Is > > there > > >here somebody from TAU or HUJI that can help to organize it? He will no > > >chsrge for his talk. > > > > Given RMS's actions in recent years, I would have checked with someone > > who is familiar with the local law, if having direct connection, or > > assisting RMS is not a liability or against the law. > > > > IANAL. > > > > > > > > ___ > > Linux-il mailing list > > Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il > > http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il > > > ___ Linux-il mailing list -- linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il To unsubscribe send an email to linux-il-le...@cs.huji.ac.il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
2011/6/13 Tom Balazs tom123onl...@gmail.com It seems that Mr. Snitz is a mathematician, anarchist,... Let me guess - he's a Chaos theorist? :) --Amos ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
Quoting geoffrey mendelson, from the post of Sun, 12 Jun: On Jun 12, 2011, at 10:50 AM, Uri Even-Chen wrote: I don't agree with you, Geoff. What Richard Stallman does as a private person does not mean the FSF in involved. As a private person Richard Stallman has the right to boycott Israeli institutions and universities. It does not mean that the FSF is boycotting Israel. You can agree or not, it's your opinion. However US law is that once he signs his emails as an officer of the corporation, in this case president, it does. you know, there IS a logical falacy of guilt by association. before you oycot the FSF and the registration office that handled their NGO registration, and the entire govenrment of the country that enploys that registration clerk, and so on, I suggest we stop and call on the FSF spokespeople to give their opinion on the matter and maybe resolve it otherwise. two sideline remarks: 1. As I mentioned in my blog post, I don't see the financial boycott as a problem, and I'm even hoping it started moving something, but I have a real problem with justifying the academic BDS. however after I saw this Item, I wonder what will I do if more and more Universities ד‚?ere proven to act the same: http://www.mako.co.il/news-channel2/Channel-2-Newscast/Article-230c47f2e3f8031004.htm# 2. As usuall, I am suprised how appropriate my random signature comes out :-) -- Peacemaker Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
2011/6/15 Ira Abramov lists-linux...@ira.abramov.org Quoting geoffrey mendelson, from the post of Sun, 12 Jun: On Jun 12, 2011, at 10:50 AM, Uri Even-Chen wrote: I don't agree with you, Geoff. What Richard Stallman does as a private person does not mean the FSF in involved. As a private person Richard Stallman has the right to boycott Israeli institutions and universities. It does not mean that the FSF is boycotting Israel. You can agree or not, it's your opinion. However US law is that once he signs his emails as an officer of the corporation, in this case president, it does. you know, there IS a logical falacy of guilt by association. before you oycot the FSF and the registration office that handled their NGO registration, and the entire govenrment of the country that enploys that registration clerk, and so on, I suggest we stop and call on the FSF spokespeople to give their opinion on the matter and maybe resolve it otherwise. two sideline remarks: 1. As I mentioned in my blog post, I don't see the financial boycott as a problem, and I'm even hoping it started moving something, but I have a real problem with justifying the academic BDS. however after I saw this Item, I wonder what will I do if more and more Universities ד‚?ere proven to act the same: http://www.mako.co.il/news-channel2/Channel-2-Newscast/Article-230c47f2e3f8031004.htm# 2. As usuall, I am suprised how appropriate my random signature comes out :-) -- Peacemaker Ira, I do not know you, but from my experience, people that say they are 'peace makers' usually cause the opposite ... ;-) (e.g. neville chamberlain) Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ On the subject: I wouldn't boycott the FSF. I love the idea behind the FSF, even if I do not agree with everything RMS belives in. I may act differently if the FSF boycotts israel. I will probably not go to any of RMS lectures. I do not think he is anti-Semitic, but he have been at least insensitive. I also believe that leaving the issue in low profile would be best. you may agree or not. this is my opinions. cheers, erez, ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
Are you going to start that discussion again? Everyone said their opinion and nothing new was added for quite a few emails now. Maybe we should just let it die out? Ely 2011/6/15 Erez D erez0...@gmail.com 2011/6/15 Ira Abramov lists-linux...@ira.abramov.org Quoting geoffrey mendelson, from the post of Sun, 12 Jun: On Jun 12, 2011, at 10:50 AM, Uri Even-Chen wrote: I don't agree with you, Geoff. What Richard Stallman does as a private person does not mean the FSF in involved. As a private person Richard Stallman has the right to boycott Israeli institutions and universities. It does not mean that the FSF is boycotting Israel. You can agree or not, it's your opinion. However US law is that once he signs his emails as an officer of the corporation, in this case president, it does. you know, there IS a logical falacy of guilt by association. before you oycot the FSF and the registration office that handled their NGO registration, and the entire govenrment of the country that enploys that registration clerk, and so on, I suggest we stop and call on the FSF spokespeople to give their opinion on the matter and maybe resolve it otherwise. two sideline remarks: 1. As I mentioned in my blog post, I don't see the financial boycott as a problem, and I'm even hoping it started moving something, but I have a real problem with justifying the academic BDS. however after I saw this Item, I wonder what will I do if more and more Universities ד‚?ere proven to act the same: http://www.mako.co.il/news-channel2/Channel-2-Newscast/Article-230c47f2e3f8031004.htm# 2. As usuall, I am suprised how appropriate my random signature comes out :-) -- Peacemaker Ira, I do not know you, but from my experience, people that say they are 'peace makers' usually cause the opposite ... ;-) (e.g. neville chamberlain) Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ On the subject: I wouldn't boycott the FSF. I love the idea behind the FSF, even if I do not agree with everything RMS belives in. I may act differently if the FSF boycotts israel. I will probably not go to any of RMS lectures. I do not think he is anti-Semitic, but he have been at least insensitive. I also believe that leaving the issue in low profile would be best. you may agree or not. this is my opinions. cheers, erez, ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
On Jun 15, 2011, at 3:14 PM, Ira Abramov wrote: you know, there IS a logical falacy of guilt by association. There may be, but there is a clear case here, RMS as president of the FSF has, ex officio (from his office, meaning as the president, not his desk) said that he was boycotting. This makes it FSF policy. I suggest we stop and call on the FSF spokespeople to give their opinion on the matter and maybe resolve it otherwise. They already have, the President of the FSF has said so. As the President of the FSF. Is there anyone more appropriate to be their spokesperson? It's now up to them to say that different or not. This is however, the best vindication of project GNU. You can boycott the FSF, you can sue them, have their nonprofit status revoked, you can burn RMS in effigy, declare him persona non grata in Israel, do anything you want to him and the FSF and still use GPL'ed software for free, and get all the updates and source code for free. To paraphrase the movie My Blue Heaven, This is the worst case scenario of RMS's dream. 2. As usuall, I am suprised how appropriate my random signature comes out :-) -- Peacemaker http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Single_Action_Army Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM Making your enemy reliant on software you support is the best revenge. ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
I may act differently if the FSF boycotts israel. Is the FSF not boycotting Israel? I guess it depends on how you see things, but when Stallman signs on a letter as President of the FSF that he will not come to Israel unless it is at a venue that sponsors an anti-Israel boycott, I don't know what more would be required in order to be able to say with confidence that constitutes a boycott of Israel by the FSF. I will probably not go to any of RMS lectures. I do not think he is anti-Semitic, but he have been at least insensitive. Does everybody not realize Stallman was born Jewish? I wonder if the Arabs who are sponsoring his visit realize that. Or maybe since he has declared himself an atheist they are ok with it. ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
On Wednesday 15 June 2011 at 15:56:03 (GMT+2) Ira Abramov Lists-Linux- i...@ira.abramov.org wrote: Quoting geoffrey mendelson, from the post of Sun, 12 Jun: On Jun 12, 2011, at 10:50 AM, Uri Even-Chen wrote: I don't agree with you, Geoff. What Richard Stallman does as a private person does not mean the FSF in involved. As a private person Richard Stallman has the right to boycott Israeli institutions and universities. It does not mean that the FSF is boycotting Israel. You can agree or not, it's your opinion. However US law is that once he signs his emails as an officer of the corporation, in this case president, it does. you know, there IS a logical falacy of guilt by association. before you oycot the FSF and the registration office that handled their NGO registration, and the entire govenrment of the country that enploys that registration clerk, and so on, I suggest we stop and call on the FSF spokespeople to give their opinion on the matter and maybe resolve it otherwise. I question that RMS does his lecturing as a private person, and that he is not engaged because of his connection, not to say identification, with FSF. When organizations place posters advertising his talks, surely he is billed as the head if FSF; nothing else makes sense. If that is true, then he is not speaking as a private person, and he (or his spokesman) is not speaking as a private person when giving detailed instructions about the bona fides and anti-Israel attitudes of sponsors and any organizations that might be associated with his engagement, and the kashrut of the hall itself and its owners. No, that is way beyond any fallacy of guilt by association. The fallacy is that he is a private person when he speaks publicly, and can say or do whatever he wants with no blowback on FSF. Full disclosure: I do not favor political boycotts. I also do not favor cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. And I certainly do not favor being dragged by someone else, celeprity though he may be, into a boycott or being identified with one two sideline remarks: 1. As I mentioned in my blog post, I don't see the financial boycott as a problem, and I'm even hoping it started moving something, but I have a real problem with justifying the academic BDS. however after I saw this Item, I wonder what will I do if more and more Universities ד‚?ere proven to act the same: http://www.mako.co.il/news-channel2/Channel-2-Newscast/Article-230c47 f2e3f8031004.htm# -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
On Wednesday 15 June 2011 at 16:18:42 (GMT+2) Erez D erez0...@gmail.com wrote: 2011/6/15 Ira Abramov lists-linux...@ira.abramov.org Quoting geoffrey mendelson, from the post of Sun, 12 Jun: On Jun 12, 2011, at 10:50 AM, Uri Even-Chen wrote: I don't agree with you, Geoff. What Richard Stallman does as a private person does not mean the FSF in involved. As a private person Richard Stallman has the right to boycott Israeli institutions and universities. It does not mean that the FSF is boycotting Israel. You can agree or not, it's your opinion. However US law is that once he signs his emails as an officer of the corporation, in this case president, it does. you know, there IS a logical falacy of guilt by association. before you oycot the FSF and the registration office that handled their NGO registration, and the entire govenrment of the country that enploys that registration clerk, and so on, I suggest we stop and call on the FSF spokespeople to give their opinion on the matter and maybe resolve it otherwise. two sideline remarks: 1. As I mentioned in my blog post, I don't see the financial boycott as a problem, and I'm even hoping it started moving something, but I have a real problem with justifying the academic BDS. however after I saw this Item, I wonder what will I do if more and more Universities ד‚?ere proven to act the same: http://www.mako.co.il/news-channel2/Channel-2-Newscast/Article-230c 47f2e3f8031004.htm# 2. As usuall, I am suprised how appropriate my random signature comes out :-) -- Peacemaker Ira, I do not know you, but from my experience, people that say they are 'peace makers' usually cause the opposite ... ;-) (e.g. neville chamberlain) Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ On the subject: I wouldn't boycott the FSF. I love the idea behind the FSF, even if I do not agree with everything RMS belives in. I may act differently if the FSF boycotts israel. I will probably not go to any of RMS lectures. I do not think he is anti-Semitic, but he have been at least insensitive. I also believe that leaving the issue in low profile would be best. you may agree or not. this is my opinions. Of course he is an anti-Semite. Israel bashing is the modern phase of anti-Semitism. So is Noam Chomsky, for the same reason. cheers, erez, ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
I have been reading quite a lot of messages about this topic. I feel (and this is my feeling only) that it has been talked enough. Mr. Stallman doesn't want to be here. He doesn't care about the other side of the story, and he is so much about his own religion, that he forgets that each coin has two sides. I say - Halas (it was in Arabic, too!). Let him be. A boycott is as effective as the boycottee cares. I don't care anymore. I won't go there, because, to my eyes, such a strong opinionism without even an attempt to see the other side, as Mr. Stallman shows both in his recent dealings with the local politics and local conflict between two nations who have nothing to do with him, and showed in the past regarding various concepts of how and what to code (some of them were enough to make a movement, to start something, but they are not necessarily the thing which is required to keep it going), and how things should be, shows me how irrelevant he is. Blocking your ears to alternate views is a bad thing. We should not encourage such actions, neither of strangers, nor of ourselves. We have the option to show our point of view, and that means, that if it were to me, the lecture, if at all, would have taken place somewhere near Gaza, so he experiences the rockets flying over our heads. Because there is no contravention about these locations. But this is nothing more than an imagination. Wasted time, just like this e-mail message. It doesn't matter. He doesn't care, he doesn't want to look at the other side of the coin, and by boycotting us, he exposes his own stubbornness. Halas. Don't waste your time with him. Etzion 2011/6/13 Tom Balazs tom123onl...@gmail.com I would have been happy to say this thread had run it's course, but this response from RMS and (his apparent associate / organizer) Kobi Snitz is too much. Mr. Snitz advises both myself and RMS that in order to make sure the talk in Israel meets the standards of the BDS-supporting organization which is hosting RMS then the talks in Israel must be both sponsored by a BDS supporting organization and held in a hall owned/run by a BDS supporting organization. Snitz's words were, in order to not violate the boycott the sponsors and the place should be dissenting israeli groups and institutions. It seems that Mr. Snitz is a mathematician, anarchist, and leader in the BDS (boycotts, divestment and sanctions) against Israel movement. If you'd like to read more about Mr. Snitz you can use the links below. (Responses from Kobi Snitz and from RMS are also below.) http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/shin-bet-puts-israeli-anarchists-in-crosshairs-1.333140 - He was not the only anarchist the Jewish department dealt with that week. Five days earlier, Kobi Snitz was attending a conference when he received a call from an unidentified number. The caller told him, 'Shalom, this is Rona from the Shin Bet. I'm sure you've heard about me.' - She said she wanted to invite me for a friendly conversation and for us to exchange thoughts, said Snitz, 39, an anarchist activist and a mathematician. He asked whether he was being called in for an interrogation and when she said no, he said, no thanks. In 2009, Snitz served a 20-day sentence over an attempt a few years earlier to prevent the demolition of a house in Kharbatha, a village west of Ramallah. Two months ago, he was given another five-day sentence over a protest against the Second Lebanon War in 2006. http://www-users.math.umd.edu/~snitz/ http://israel-academia-monitor.com/index.php?type=large_advicadvice_id=7985page_data[id]=175cookie_lang=en http://www.radicalendar.org/calendar/all/all/display/85445/index.php?view=eventfulldate=2009-07-04 http://www.docstoc.com/docs/38551113/In-support-of-the-Palestinian-human-rights-community-call http://student.cs.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/php/authors.php?auid=4993 http://pipl.com/directory/name/Snitz/Kobi http://israel-academia-monitor.com/index.php?type=large_advicadvice_id=6410page_data[id]=175cookie_lang=enthe_session_id=0e356a3b68ae0e5dd29aefaf7ef56e77BLUEWEBSESSIONSID=21f827e2775005995748ebab68617a46 http://www.israel-academia-monitor.com/index.php?type=large_advicadvice_id=6189page_data[id]=162cookie_lang=hethe_session_id=cfbd3321f483be8d97e01a3d1db248bfBLUEWEBSESSIONSID=049669b2ba65f1c3fedf5a76c53d45aa --- fromKobi Snitz ksn...@gmail.com tor...@gnu.org dateMon, Jun 13, 2011 at 09:30 subjectRe: Finding a hall in Haifa mailed-bygmail.com signed-bygmail.com hide details 09:30 (1 hour ago) I am missing the earlier part of this correspondence but I can say that in order to not violate the boycott the sponsors and the place should be dissenting israeli groups and institutions. In tel aviv my first thought was the women's coalition for peace. I talked to their head last night and she said that they've never done anything about free software and she feels it is strange for them to do it. The upcoming boycott law
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
Enough already. The RMS thread-craze is *clearly* against the rules and guide-lines of Linux-IL mailing list, as it has little to do (if any) with, and I quote Linux related *questions* and *discussions* (emphasis mine). ML owner: Time to intervene? - Gilboa ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
On Monday 13 June 2011 at 15:53:39 (GMT+2) Gilboa Davara gilb...@gmail.com wrote: Enough already. The RMS thread-craze is *clearly* against the rules and guide-lines of Linux-IL mailing list, as it has little to do (if any) with, and I quote Linux related *questions* and *discussions* (emphasis mine). It does seem that the discussion has come to a well-deserved end. But I do not think it was off topic. What to do about the conditions that a proposed speaker places on his agreement to speak can't possibly be irrelevant to the rules of the principal communication tool of the organization. The mere fact that the topic has exercised people means it was important and relevant. It lasted so long only because the smug arrogance of the speaker and his spokesman were not fully revealed until very recently. ML owner: Time to intervene? - Gilboa ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
On Jun 10, 2011, at 9:38 PM, Marc Volovic wrote: People, RMS (as well as any other person) is entitled to support, adhere, acquiesce or abhor, deny, etc any and all BDS activities. The man is entitled to his opinion and choice. It is his right as a man and as a public figure. Marc, it has to do with US corporate law and practice. In the US, officers of a corporation are limited in liability for their actions as corporate officers. What they do as private citizens is different than what they do as officers of the corporation. This is different than Israeli corporate law, where there is much less of a corporate veil. When they do something as an officer of the corporation, it takes on a whole new meaning. It is the stated policy of the corportation. If RMS as RMS states what he does, as a private citizen, it is free speech. He is entitled to his opionions and limited by US laws as to what he can say and where, but those limits are awfully wide (compared to Israeli ones for example). However, once he signs an email as an officer of the FSF, or states it publicly that he, as representing the FSF is going to support a boycott (or not) and so on, it is FSF policy. So like it or not, the FSF has now incorporated the BDS movement into their message. It's not just FREE Software, it's also support the Palestinians and boycott Israel. If RMS wants to vacation in Ramalah, or sun himself on the beaches of Gaza, he is welcome to. If he does not want to stay in, vist or even pass through Israel, (He could enter Gaza from Egypt, or the PA from Jordan), he is welcome to. However as the President of the FSF his perceived boycott of Israeli institutions is unacceptable, and dilutes the FSF and it's message. Depending upon exactly what he does and does not do, and who provides the money for his visit, he (and therefore the FSF as he spoke and speaks for them) may be in volation of US law, and therefore subject to investigation, tax audits, etc. Quite simply this will not end well for the FSF. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM Making your enemy reliant on software you support is the best revenge. ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 09:45:33AM +0300, geoffrey mendelson wrote: On Jun 10, 2011, at 9:38 PM, Marc Volovic wrote: People, RMS (as well as any other person) is entitled to support, adhere, acquiesce or abhor, deny, etc any and all BDS activities. The man is entitled to his opinion and choice. It is his right as a man and as a public figure. Marc, it has to do with US corporate law and practice. In the US, officers of a corporation are limited in liability for their actions as corporate officers. What they do as private citizens is different than what they do as officers of the corporation. This is different than Israeli corporate law, where there is much less of a corporate veil. When they do something as an officer of the corporation, it takes on a whole new meaning. It is the stated policy of the corportation. If RMS as RMS states what he does, as a private citizen, it is free speech. He is entitled to his opionions and limited by US laws as to what he can say and where, but those limits are awfully wide (compared to Israeli ones for example). However, once he signs an email as an officer of the FSF, or states it publicly that he, as representing the FSF is going to support a boycott (or not) and so on, it is FSF policy. So like it or not, the FSF has now incorporated the BDS movement into their message. It's not just FREE Software, it's also support the Palestinians and boycott Israel. I suggest you go and sue the FSF. If RMS wants to vacation in Ramalah, or sun himself on the beaches of Gaza, he is welcome to. If he does not want to stay in, vist or even pass through Israel, (He could enter Gaza from Egypt, or the PA from Jordan), he is welcome to. However as the President of the FSF his perceived boycott of Israeli institutions is unacceptable, and dilutes the FSF and it's message. Depending upon exactly what he does and does not do, and who provides the money for his visit, he (and therefore the FSF as he spoke and speaks for them) may be in volation of US law, and therefore subject to investigation, tax audits, etc. Quite simply this will not end well for the FSF. Guys. We have our own local Florian Müller. Listen to him. It's the end of the FSF! -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best tzaf...@debian.org|| friend ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 09:45, geoffrey mendelson geoffreymendel...@gmail.com wrote: On Jun 10, 2011, at 9:38 PM, Marc Volovic wrote: People, RMS (as well as any other person) is entitled to support, adhere, acquiesce or abhor, deny, etc any and all BDS activities. The man is entitled to his opinion and choice. It is his right as a man and as a public figure. Marc, it has to do with US corporate law and practice. In the US, officers of a corporation are limited in liability for their actions as corporate officers. What they do as private citizens is different than what they do as officers of the corporation. This is different than Israeli corporate law, where there is much less of a corporate veil. When they do something as an officer of the corporation, it takes on a whole new meaning. It is the stated policy of the corportation. If RMS as RMS states what he does, as a private citizen, it is free speech. He is entitled to his opionions and limited by US laws as to what he can say and where, but those limits are awfully wide (compared to Israeli ones for example). However, once he signs an email as an officer of the FSF, or states it publicly that he, as representing the FSF is going to support a boycott (or not) and so on, it is FSF policy. So like it or not, the FSF has now incorporated the BDS movement into their message. It's not just FREE Software, it's also support the Palestinians and boycott Israel. If RMS wants to vacation in Ramalah, or sun himself on the beaches of Gaza, he is welcome to. If he does not want to stay in, vist or even pass through Israel, (He could enter Gaza from Egypt, or the PA from Jordan), he is welcome to. However as the President of the FSF his perceived boycott of Israeli institutions is unacceptable, and dilutes the FSF and it's message. Depending upon exactly what he does and does not do, and who provides the money for his visit, he (and therefore the FSF as he spoke and speaks for them) may be in volation of US law, and therefore subject to investigation, tax audits, etc. Quite simply this will not end well for the FSF. Geoff. I don't agree with you, Geoff. What Richard Stallman does as a private person does not mean the FSF in involved. As a private person Richard Stallman has the right to boycott Israeli institutions and universities. It does not mean that the FSF is boycotting Israel. Uri Even-Chen Mobile Phone: +972-50-9007559 E-mail: u...@speedy.net Website: http://www.speedy.net/ ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
On Jun 12, 2011, at 10:50 AM, Uri Even-Chen wrote: I don't agree with you, Geoff. What Richard Stallman does as a private person does not mean the FSF in involved. As a private person Richard Stallman has the right to boycott Israeli institutions and universities. It does not mean that the FSF is boycotting Israel. You can agree or not, it's your opinion. However US law is that once he signs his emails as an officer of the corporation, in this case president, it does. I am not a lawyer, but what I remember is that it is also the case in Israel. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM Making your enemy reliant on software you support is the best revenge. ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
Being significantly less conversant with US corporate law than e.g. Israeli corporate law, I'll take your comments at face value. Is RMS, by agreeing to the conditions set by the financial contributors to his visit, in violation of US law? Mind - to the best of my understanding - he has not gone BDS publicly, only stated in private email conversations that he will adhere to the conditions set. Does that also contravene? M On Jun 12, 2011, at 9:45 AM, geoffrey mendelson wrote: On Jun 10, 2011, at 9:38 PM, Marc Volovic wrote: People, RMS (as well as any other person) is entitled to support, adhere, acquiesce or abhor, deny, etc any and all BDS activities. The man is entitled to his opinion and choice. It is his right as a man and as a public figure. Marc, it has to do with US corporate law and practice. In the US, officers of a corporation are limited in liability for their actions as corporate officers. What they do as private citizens is different than what they do as officers of the corporation. This is different than Israeli corporate law, where there is much less of a corporate veil. When they do something as an officer of the corporation, it takes on a whole new meaning. It is the stated policy of the corportation. If RMS as RMS states what he does, as a private citizen, it is free speech. He is entitled to his opionions and limited by US laws as to what he can say and where, but those limits are awfully wide (compared to Israeli ones for example). However, once he signs an email as an officer of the FSF, or states it publicly that he, as representing the FSF is going to support a boycott (or not) and so on, it is FSF policy. So like it or not, the FSF has now incorporated the BDS movement into their message. It's not just FREE Software, it's also support the Palestinians and boycott Israel. If RMS wants to vacation in Ramalah, or sun himself on the beaches of Gaza, he is welcome to. If he does not want to stay in, vist or even pass through Israel, (He could enter Gaza from Egypt, or the PA from Jordan), he is welcome to. However as the President of the FSF his perceived boycott of Israeli institutions is unacceptable, and dilutes the FSF and it's message. Depending upon exactly what he does and does not do, and who provides the money for his visit, he (and therefore the FSF as he spoke and speaks for them) may be in volation of US law, and therefore subject to investigation, tax audits, etc. Quite simply this will not end well for the FSF. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM Making your enemy reliant on software you support is the best revenge. ---MAV Marc A Volovic marcvolo...@me.com +972-54-467-6764 ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 9:53 AM, Marc Volovic marcvolo...@me.com wrote: Being significantly less conversant with US corporate law than e.g. Israeli corporate law, I'll take your comments at face value. Is RMS, by agreeing to the conditions set by the financial contributors to his visit, in violation of US law? #include ianal.h Maybe. Maybe not. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50a/usc_sec_50a_2407000-.html http://www.bis.doc.gov/complianceandenforcement/antiboycottcompliance.htm FSF is an NPO, not a business (the anti-boycott laws are primarily about business activities). It is not clear to me whether RMS's visit+lectures+fees+etc. constitute business activity. His expenses are paid, maybe he will receive a honorarium for his appearance - it well may be that it constitutes business activity. If FSF falls under the anti-boycott law (and I don't know that) then not only must RMS refuse to visit the PA, he (i.e., FSF) must report the request (this is the legal term in the context) to the US authorities. An important point is that one does not need to support the boycott as a matter of policy to break the law, it is enough to co-operate in an individual instance (including by inaction). To summarize in generic terms: generally, AFAIK, boycotts are legal. Business activity supporting a *foreign* boycott is illegal in the US. Having said that (and reiterating that IANAL), here are a couple of things to ponder. 1) Independent boycotts are allowed, so if FSF itself boycotts Israeli universities it is probably permitted by law to do so (Geoff alluded to this possibility). If RMS says that it is his personal decision then he is likely (assuming his trip is in his FSF capacity - see below) in a conflict of interest (I mentioned it in an earlier post). 2) It may be that there is a loophole in the law - the law concerns boycotts by countries. If RMS's sponsors are private individuals maybe this will work for him. On the other hand it may be possible to prove that the condition is materially similar to the official boycott, and the loophole is thereby plugged. Another summary: whoever wants to consider reporting FSF/RMS to the US authorities (or sue) should consult a qualified lawyer with experience in EAR/anti-boycott law. Mind - to the best of my understanding - he has not gone BDS publicly, only stated in private email conversations that he will adhere to the conditions set. Does that also contravene? As Geoff mentioned (correctly, IMHO), he discusses this in his capacity as the President of FSF. I suppose his trip is also in that capacity, not as a private individual. BTW, no one should be surprised that RMS supports this boycott - much of his activity concerns boycotting this or that, once you think about it. -- Oleg Goldshmidt | p...@goldshmidt.org ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
On Sunday 12 June 2011 at 22:24:54 (GMT+2) Oleg Goldshmidt p...@goldshmidt.org wrote: f FSF falls under the anti-boycott law (and I don't know that) then not only must RMS refuse to visit the PA, he (i.e., FSF) must report the request (this is the legal term in the context) to the US authorities. An important point is that one does not need to support the boycott as a matter of policy to break the law, it is enough to co-operate in an individual instance (including by inaction). I too am no lawyer. My guess is that the anti-boycott law has nothing to do with FSF or any other voluntary organization (like what is called amutah in Hebrew), which is what I understand FSF to be. That RMS might be acting illegally in his adherence to a boycott never occured to me, and I don't think he did. Legal prohibitions quite aside, his position was one that should not have been accepted by an organization of Israelis, and indeed it was not. People gullible enough to regard Israel as a criminal state surely have a different take. -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
On Jun 12, 2011, at 10:35 PM, Stan Goodman wrote: My guess is that the anti-boycott law has nothing to do with FSF or any other voluntary organization (like what is called amutah in Hebrew), which is what I understand FSF to be. They are a 501 c 3 corporation, which limits prevents them from being involved in political activities that are not related to their purpose. If you are interested, you can find their articles of incorporation at their web site, and the wikipedia has a good write-up about 501 c 3 corporations. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM Making your enemy reliant on software you support is the best revenge. ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 22:35, Stan Goodman stan.good...@hashkedim.comwrote: My guess is that the anti-boycott law has nothing to do with FSF or any other voluntary organization (like what is called amutah in Hebrew), which is what I understand FSF to be. As far as I know, there is a law in the USA that prevents people and organizations from boycotting Israel. They are not allowed to refuse to do business with Israel or Israeli organizations or individuals (orgranizations means all kinds of organizations). If the FSF refuses to do business with Israelis, this may be illegal. But Richard Stallman doesn't have to speak in Israeli universities - it is his right to choose where to speak and where not to speak. If they refuse to do business - for example, sell software - with Israelis then it may be illegal according to USA laws. Uri Even-Chen Mobile Phone: +972-50-9007559 E-mail: u...@speedy.net Website: http://www.speedy.net/ ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
I do not think what he is doing is necessary illegal, especially since he leaves open the option of a 'bidding war', where someone else pays his expenses, but the way he handled this issue is very clumsy and unfortunate. As I had said before, he should have checked with his sponsor before offering to talk, and also when he found out he could not talk in Israel, he should have left the details out and just cited scheduling conflicts or another white lie. Z. 2011/6/12 Uri Even-Chen u...@speedy.net On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 22:35, Stan Goodman stan.good...@hashkedim.comwrote: My guess is that the anti-boycott law has nothing to do with FSF or any other voluntary organization (like what is called amutah in Hebrew), which is what I understand FSF to be. As far as I know, there is a law in the USA that prevents people and organizations from boycotting Israel. They are not allowed to refuse to do business with Israel or Israeli organizations or individuals (orgranizations means all kinds of organizations). If the FSF refuses to do business with Israelis, this may be illegal. But Richard Stallman doesn't have to speak in Israeli universities - it is his right to choose where to speak and where not to speak. If they refuse to do business - for example, sell software - with Israelis then it may be illegal according to USA laws. Uri Even-Chen Mobile Phone: +972-50-9007559 E-mail: u...@speedy.net Website: http://www.speedy.net/ ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il -- Check out my web site - www.words2u.net ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
I think RMS does not have any intention of speaking, and is the OSS/FSF?GNU version of what is known as a cock-tease, though he seems more like a plain schmuck from a distance. He should not speak, nor even visit Israel. He should support freedom of expression in the west bank and Gaza by staying there. Personally, maybe each one of us should send the poor guy a nickel. Z. 2011/6/10 Tom Balazs tom123onl...@gmail.com After Dr. Richard M. Stallman (RMS) cancelled his lecture at the University of Haifa I tried to arrange an alternative meeting hall for him. Like some other people I thought that all that was required was not an Israeli university or perhaps not a prominent symbol of the state. Yesterday (9-Jun-11) RMS sent me a response which indicates that there is an even bigger problem. According to him, the Palestinians' boycott is so strict that they object to [him giving lectures hosted by] all organizations except those that support the boycott. My opinion is that under such circumstances RMS should refuse to speak, or at least have a sudden and unavoidable scheduling conflict which necessitates cancelling his visit. If this really is the situation then I will not be searching for lecture halls for him and will not be attending his lectures either. Tom |--| |Tom Balazs |Haifa |tom123onl...@gmail.com |--| From: Richard Stallman r...@gnu.org Date: Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 17:58 Subject: Re: Fwd: A Lecture Hall for a Talk by Dr. Richard Stallman, President of the Free Software Foundation To: Tom Balazs tom123onl...@gmail.com Cc: rms-ass...@gnu.org Our theater is very busy during the month of June, and the date you had mentioned wouldwnt work. My visit is in July, not June. Maybe that was misunderstanding. However, it seems that the Palestinians' boycott is so strict that they object to all organizations except those that support the boycott. I don't know whether they object if such an organization rents a hall. So I must charge the minimum cost of 750 N.I.S in order to be able to operate the Theater. How many dollars is that? I have no idea whether I have this much in my pocket. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il -- Check out my web site - www.words2u.net ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
One can think of a few action plans: 1. Who cares? RMS is known to be somewhat awkward, and his behavior of hey I'm coming, oh, I'm coming only if it is not a univ., oh, wait a second, I cannot come unless this is the boycott offices in Israel, does not add to him much. The advantage of this approach is that we do not need to do nothing. Main problem: This alienates both RMS (which will happen anyway) and the Israeli FOSS community (there is a reason you will never ever ever hear Bill Gates saying something of this form). 2. Boycotting RMS until he apologizes for this behaviour. Advantage: we take a zionist stand point, proving to the Israeli public that we do not share the view point of RMS. Dis-advantage: seriously, are we 4-year olds playing Chilba's? 3. Start sending RMS personal emails - won't work. It did not work before, won't work now. I would avoid sending nickels. The guy did not hear google answers queries of the form 750 ILS in USD. 4. Approaching FSF and explain our problem with this type of behavior. Explaining to FSF that they lose face in this instance. (do note that 4 is independent of 1,2, and 3). 2011/6/10 Steve G. word...@gmail.com: I think RMS does not have any intention of speaking, and is the OSS/FSF?GNU version of what is known as a cock-tease, though he seems more like a plain schmuck from a distance. He should not speak, nor even visit Israel. He should support freedom of expression in the west bank and Gaza by staying there. Personally, maybe each one of us should send the poor guy a nickel. Z. 2011/6/10 Tom Balazs tom123onl...@gmail.com After Dr. Richard M. Stallman (RMS) cancelled his lecture at the University of Haifa I tried to arrange an alternative meeting hall for him. Like some other people I thought that all that was required was not an Israeli university or perhaps not a prominent symbol of the state. Yesterday (9-Jun-11) RMS sent me a response which indicates that there is an even bigger problem. According to him, the Palestinians' boycott is so strict that they object to [him giving lectures hosted by] all organizations except those that support the boycott. My opinion is that under such circumstances RMS should refuse to speak, or at least have a sudden and unavoidable scheduling conflict which necessitates cancelling his visit. If this really is the situation then I will not be searching for lecture halls for him and will not be attending his lectures either. Tom |--| | Tom Balazs | Haifa | tom123onl...@gmail.com |--| From: Richard Stallman r...@gnu.org Date: Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 17:58 Subject: Re: Fwd: A Lecture Hall for a Talk by Dr. Richard Stallman, President of the Free Software Foundation To: Tom Balazs tom123onl...@gmail.com Cc: rms-ass...@gnu.org Our theater is very busy during the month of June, and the date you had mentioned wouldwnt work. My visit is in July, not June. Maybe that was misunderstanding. However, it seems that the Palestinians' boycott is so strict that they object to all organizations except those that support the boycott. I don't know whether they object if such an organization rents a hall. So I must charge the minimum cost of 750 N.I.S in order to be able to operate the Theater. How many dollars is that? I have no idea whether I have this much in my pocket. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il -- Check out my web site - www.words2u.net ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il -- Orr Dunkelman, orr.dunkel...@gmail.com GPG fingerprint: C2D5 C6D6 9A24 9A95 C5B3 2023 6CAB 4A7C B73F D0AA (This key will never sign Emails, only other PGP keys. The key corresponds to o...@vipe.technion.ac.il) ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
On Friday 10 June 2011 at 16:35:43 (GMT+2) Tom Balazs tom123onl...@gmail.com wrote: After Dr. Richard M. Stallman (RMS) cancelled his lecture at the University of Haifa I tried to arrange an alternative meeting hall for him. Like some other people I thought that all that was required was not an Israeli university or perhaps not a prominent symbol of the state. Yesterday (9-Jun-11) RMS sent me a response which indicates that there is an even bigger problem. According to him, the Palestinians' boycott is so strict that they object to [him giving lectures hosted by] all organizations except those that support the boycott. My opinion is that under such circumstances RMS should refuse to speak, or at least have a sudden and unavoidable scheduling conflict which necessitates cancelling his visit. If this really is the situation then I will not be searching for lecture halls for him and will not be attending his lectures either. Tom Since Mr Stallman had so little sense as to assent to inflicting even the earlier (milder) boycott rules on talks in Israel, it was scandalous for the local organizatiton to even consider seeking kosher venues for him. It's unfortunate that it took the revelation of the REAL rules to cause Israelis to realize what was being done to them. The mind boggles at the notion that hostile organizations might be able to induce an Israeli organization to accept any kind of boycott of Israel, and thereby to seem to justify it. Aside from which Mr Stallman's adventure into politics do him no credit. |--| | |Tom Balazs |Haifa |tom123onl...@gmail.com | |--| From: Richard Stallman r...@gnu.org Date: Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 17:58 Subject: Re: Fwd: A Lecture Hall for a Talk by Dr. Richard Stallman, President of the Free Software Foundation To: Tom Balazs tom123onl...@gmail.com Cc: rms-ass...@gnu.org Our theater is very busy during the month of June, and the date you had mentioned wouldwnt work. My visit is in July, not June. Maybe that was misunderstanding. However, it seems that the Palestinians' boycott is so strict that they object to all organizations except those that support the boycott. I don't know whether they object if such an organization rents a hall. So I must charge the minimum cost of 750 N.I.S in order to be able to operate the Theater. How many dollars is that? I have no idea whether I have this much in my pocket. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org, www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/ -- Stan Goodman Qiryat Tiv'on Israel ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
[a whole pile of claptrap, including previously written and quoted claptrap, snipped] People, RMS (as well as any other person) is entitled to support, adhere, acquiesce or abhor, deny, etc any and all BDS activities. (Some of) Your moral outrage is not a whit less ridiculous that agreement. The man is entitled to his opinion and choice. It is his right as a man and as a public figure. Those of you gnashing your teeth - please open YouTube and type פלדרמאוס באולימפיאדה. Enough! ---MAV Marc A Volovic marcvolo...@me.com +972-54-467-6764 ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
I am not worried about his opinion, but his support of a boycott of Israel, and the fact that I have to rely on him for support of products I use. As far as I am concerned, my present view (after RMS and Mint) is that OSS is something to support as long as there is a commercial alternative. If in the past I was hoping to see MS and other commercial vendors marginalized, I now think they should continue to be the leading solution providers, and OSS should be used alongside, with the caveat that it is not reliable and future proof. OSS is only one of many options to weigh and use. Z. On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Marc Volovic marcvolo...@me.com wrote: [a whole pile of claptrap, including previously written and quoted claptrap, snipped] People, RMS (as well as any other person) is entitled to support, adhere, acquiesce or abhor, deny, etc any and all BDS activities. (Some of) Your moral outrage is not a whit less ridiculous that agreement. The man is entitled to his opinion and choice. It is his right as a man and as a public figure. Those of you gnashing your teeth - please open YouTube and type פלדרמאוס באולימפיאדה. Enough! ---MAV Marc A Volovic marcvolo...@me.com +972-54-467-6764 ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il -- Check out my web site - www.words2u.net ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
Dear Stan, You are, indeed, entitled to as much freedom and opportunity to BDS Israel for its criminal policies and proclivities. You are, indeed, entitled to as much freedom and opportunity to BDS RMS and others for their BDS'ing Israel. Just, please, try to do so without speechifying with a tearful whine. THAT makes it tiresome AND defeats your purpose. Haven't the Jewish People suffered enough!? is, of course, a tremendous moral fillip, but u... rather :-) is ridiculous. You know - something about tears and crocodiles. M On Jun 11, 2011, at 1:53 AM, Stan Goodman wrote: On Saturday 11 June 2011 at 01:47:50 (GMT+2) Marc Volovic I understand. Stallman is entitled to express his opinion, but I am not entitled to express mine because he is a public figure. ---MAV Marc A Volovic marcvolo...@me.com +972-54-467-6764 ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS, Hosts Must Support Boycott?
Ah, Dear Stan, how appropriate and typical to your line of argumentation. Hail! You are a true representative of your cause. M On Jun 11, 2011, at 6:44 AM, Stan Goodman wrote: On Saturday 11 June 2011 at 06:30:36 (GMT+2) Marc Volovic marcvolo...@me.com wrote: Dear Stan, You are, indeed, entitled to as much freedom and opportunity to BDS Israel for its criminal policies and proclivities. You are, indeed, Go pound salt. ---MAV Marc A Volovic marcvolo...@me.com +972-54-467-6764 ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS clarifies, backlash was unneeded
Moreover, he says the ban imposed on him is NOT Israel in its entirety, but only the Universities (the private Shenkar College seems kosher according to him). The weird but sensible thing to do is find lecture halls outside the universities and there would be no conflict. So Ariel College should be OK? ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: RMS clarifies, backlash was unneeded
On 05/30/2011 10:24 AM, linux.il wrote: Moreover, he says the ban imposed on him is NOT Israel in its entirety, but only the Universities (the private Shenkar College seems kosher according to him). The weird but sensible thing to do is find lecture halls outside the universities and there would be no conflict. So Ariel College should be OK? Thats an interesting question :) but why are you so embarrassed asking it? # ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il ___ Linux-il mailing list Linux-il@cs.huji.ac.il http://mailman.cs.huji.ac.il/mailman/listinfo/linux-il
Re: [rms@gnu.org: Re: Translating Hebrew to English]
On Fri, 11 Jul 2003, Ehud Karni wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 FSF needs volunteers for translation Hebrew to English. Is it translating from Hebrew to English or from English to Hebrew? In both cases, what has to be translated? In any case, I may be able to help here. Regards, Shlomi Fish -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ There's no point in keeping an idea to yourself since there's a 10 to 1 chance that somebody already has it and will share it before you. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [rms@gnu.org: Re: Translating Hebrew to English]
Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED]: FSF needs volunteers for translation Hebrew to English. Is it translating from Hebrew to English or from English to Hebrew? In both cases, what has to be translated? I already translated the main page into hebrew but they always tell me to go to this Dov dude which is not responding. Anyway I will be glad to help translating... = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Yet another long post] Re: RMS over Humous - meeting summery
Quoting Oleg Goldshmidt, from the post of Sun, 12 Jan: I am glad if it is. It is not so clear to me though, because, if you re-read the thread, there are voices that suggest a Stallmanist line as an official policy of Hamakor. All I did was saying that in my opinion it is narrow, divisive, and shouldn't happen. If it does, I'll have to consider what I should do. Does Hamakor have a problem with this? like you say, it's AN official, not THE official. also, we are not talking policies here, we are talking about principals. Hamakor WILL promote the principals of freedom, as well as those of open source and open standards. what's the difference between ideology/principals and actual religious zealousness? there is quite a difference. for one thing, a zealot would force his opinions and boycott opposers. I'm not religious about it, but I do support the principals. I use GNU for the freedom it gives me but I don't let it stop me from buying from Amazon or using Qmail. promoting is one thing (pro) and objecting is another (con). Stallman has a lot of pro principals that I admire, a few con principals which I think are important, and a few con principals I find rediculously extreme. in my private life I try to implement the first two. for Hamakor I'd only like to adopt the pro principals, but you said that even those are abusive and should not be in the official list of goals. well, too late, read the takanon. Talk to me - what bothers you about Hamakor? The possibility that it will adopt Stallman's POV and start pointing fingers at, boycotting, and whatnot those (members or others) who are deemed traitors to freedom. I feel uneasy helping Sun or Microsoft with opensource projects, because their motives are not pure at best, but if the opportunity arrises and Hamakor finds itself cooperating with them, I'll give them my blessing if it does not betray the goals as are in the Takanon and keep the spirit of either Open Source or Free :) frame that and come sue me if I act otherwise in the future :) resembling ideology here. Of course, you can always say that trying to avoid ideology is also an ideology... not to mention that technology should advance and the human race should be encouraged to achieve more, and one should advence science. Those are ideals that may not be your bag, and indeed I agree don't have a single interpretation or are global. When does an argument stop becoming practical and starts becoming ideological? When you start branding Linus a traitor because he chooses BitKeeper as his revision control system because BitKeeper is not free. The no, that's when ideology becomes religious zealotry, and I'm against that. I've had it up to here with Kfia Datit in this country, I don't want such issues to leak into my hobbies and work. the fact I believe in non-kosher does not mean I boycot kosher restaurants (try and find a falafel without a kosher sign!) because it means I'm paying a procent to the local rabanut (though I know people who do), but I will choose to boycot McDonalds on technical reasons (does insisting on minimally-processed food count as a religion or a healthy sense of self preservation? that's a different argument). for Stallman, Freedom is as basic as self preservation. Fine. I don't mind living in a world where there is proprietary standards and software in case there is enough Freedom to balance it and keep it at bay, and as long as it doesn't touch my personal well being. depth here. Although it seems significant to me that even a self-professed Stallmanist like Ira uses qmail, apparently choosing technical reasons over pure ideology. I'm an idealist maybe, but not a zealot. maybe saying I'm a stallmanist is too extreme, so keep my definition above - I try to follow similar lines to promote freedom. I don't take his extreme views about boycotting certain companies or products altogether. it occurred to me that if I stand up and say that I disagree it will look like I am against some basic, universal values that everybody should share, because that's how things are presented. And then I well, I agree thaqt the ideal of freedom is not global, and where it is an ideal it is not the same concept always. you DO agree that you enjoy the freedom of seeing, changing and getting the code for free, but you are not happy with the fact I want to fight for your right to do so? I would never force anyone to free their source, but I would certainly try to persuade them or prefer to work with someone else if it makes no difference for me. I WILL do my best to force service providers I have NO OPTION but to work with to change their way, i.e. the government, the banks and the health services. I will do all in my power to make them use Open standards because it concenrns my health and pocket and well being. I will not FORCE or BOYCOT or do anything AGAINST a vendor or service provider I have a choice in (i.e. Microsoft. I have good competing options for
Re: RMS over Humous - meeting summery
On Fri, 2003-01-10 at 23:33, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: The more I think about it, the more problem I have with it. I distrust ideology (managing to respect the notion in the process), and I have resolved many years ago that I would not be a member of any organization whose purposes and charter are beyond purely professional. This is regardless of whether I support the ideology in question or not. Please don't take it as reflecting in any negative way on Hamakor or its members or their views. I would like to hope that Hamakor could be an organization of cpmputer professionals that deals with technology, leaving ideology to Opinion pages. I don't think Hamakor should *explicitly* deal with bringing freedom to the society, noble as the cause may be. If Hamakor has ideological purposes, I'll have to deal with the conflict with who I am. I guess I'll have to re-read the amuta's web site. Oleg, DisclaimerThe following is *my* private opinion and mine alone, not any official Amuta stuff./disclaimer In that case, I believe membership in Hamakor is not for you. I will explain why: Hamakor is NOT an organization of computer professional. Some of the current members aren't computer proffesional at all and I seriously hope that we will get *more* non proffesionals in the future. Furthermore, while I will not comment on whether we are an ideological organization or not (becuase I'm not sure what that means), I do believe that freedom is a good thing in a very practical sense whether this practical sense is expressed in better software OR in a better society. This does not have to mean that we should have a Dogma(tm). I've always tried to not let my ideals keep me from doing the Right Thing(tm) and I don't like a set and fixed rules that says: this is OK, this isn't simply because I think life are simply not that simple. But between this and forgoing the idea that freedom is good altogether there is a long road IMHO. Just my 2cs, Gilad. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS Lecture : Cab Ride
I have semi official information that reveals that bus number 49 from Ramata Aviv to Petach Tikva should cost about 8 NIS. Shachar. Shlomi Fish wrote: Hi! Since Petakh-Tikva is a bit out of the way for a Ramat-Aviv-Gimel person like me, I am planning to take a taxi there. If anyone wants to join me and share the bill, please speak now. Alternatiely, if you can give _me_ a ride in your private vehicle, I'll be more than glad to accept this offer. (anywhere central in Tel-Aviv will be a fine pick-up place) Thanks in adance, Shlomi Fish -- Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED] Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/ Home E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups... Wait a second - is n a natural number? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS Lecture : Cab Ride
On 2003-01-12 Shachar Shemesh wrote: I have semi official information that reveals that bus number 49 from Ramata Aviv to Petach Tikva should cost about 8 NIS. The IBM building is also some 10 or 15 minutes walk from the Jabotinski / Geha junction. And getting there is quite easy with public traffic, IIRC, bus/sherut number 51, 66, and probably lots of others. (dont know about traffic jams though...) Petach-Tikva | jezira-| | IBM | | |=geha== | | | | jabotinski TelAviv = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS Lecture : Cab Ride
On 2003-01-12 I wrote: The IBM building is also some 10 or 15 minutes walk from the On second thought, make that 20 minutes. Your mileage may vary :) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS over Humous - meeting summery
Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You are just drawing the line somewhere else. I wholeheartedly agree with that - it's a line-drawing game .. I choose to draw the line beyond fair use because fair use is an established legal principle that would be a real pity to abolish. Does that mean that you draw the line wherever the law goes? I'm not talking about breaking the law, mind you. Just lobying for the law to change (a legitimate democratic right). Hamakor was founded to give all of these opinions a voice. Please don't distort what I said. I said I would be glad if Hamakor would provide an opportunity for everybody to express their views. I would object, and I wouldn't want to be a part of organization that would adopt a particular viewpoint as its official one. Leaving the nitpicking comment that any defined view is a particular one, I don't understand what you have against our current strategy, or why did you exclaim that first statement saying I will not be a part of it. It seems like our current Hamakor strategy is the same as you suggest. ... and I consider it gross verbal abuse to appeal to a generic, noble, universal notion of freedom, after defining it as the same as one's particular point of view, to brand me (or Linus, or whoever) this or that. Then talk to RMS about it. Did you see anyone from this list, or from Hamakor, doing that? And if they did, but that was under the opinions section? This is what bothers me so much in Stallman's view of the world. I am sorry, this should have gone into my response to Ira, but I hope that whoever bothers to read one of the postings will read both. I'm trying to trim the quoted sections to make readin easier. Like I said above - your problem is with RMS. Talk to me - what bothers you about Hamakor? Now, if you, as you claimed, do not want to be a part of any organization that pushes forward ideoligy, even if I agree with it, then I am very sorry to say that you will probably not want to be a member of Hamakor. As saddening as it is to me, on a personal level, I cannot change the society's goals because of that. It would be sad to me too, and if it comes to that I pledge here and now to be as supportive of Hamakor as I can from the outside. I don't need to be a member to do that. Thanks, but I'm not sure I see why it should. That last statement gets more emphesis by the fact that there is no organization, and defenitely no society, that are not powered by ideoligy. I am a member of at least one organization that, to my knowledge, has no ideological creed except that people should do their work as well as they can, ethically, and professionally. If one chooses to call this ideology, it is. It's a line-drawing game. I don't think I agee. Even when you say you want Hamakor to promote open source software based on technical merits - that's ideoligy. Maybe. It's an ideology of trying to make things work better. It is, IMHO, a very broad and inclusive ideology, as opposed to Stallman's. Not so. You are not trying to make Solaris work better. You are not trying to make Windows work better. You are also not saying well, Linux is better at some stuff and Solaris as better at other, and that's that. You are saying So I'll make Linux bettter. But why make Linux better if you don't believe, because of ideoligy, that it should be better? The thing that makes it so is the fact that you don't stop believing it just because people prove you wrong. Linux does not have SMP support as good as SCO, hspell is no competition to Word's Hebrew speller. And promoting free and open source software, in my mind, is working towards making Linux better, not arguing that one should use it even though it's worse because it will liberate you in some way, while taking away your freedom to use a 16-way SMP machine that you may really need to do the job. But why is it that you believe Linux *should* be better at 16-way SMP? Why not just recommend another OS for that task and leave it at that? The only reason I can think of is ideological. The problem is even more acute when products such as OpenOffice are discussed. These products are developed purely according to the commercial development model. OpenOffice can offer just two advantages over StarOffice: 1. 1. It is cheaper. 2. If Sun goes down, change license, want to charge more or discontinue the product altogether, you are not left out in the rain. This is, in fact, a purely technical argument, and has *nothing* at all with free software if free is used in Stallman's sense. When does an argument stop becoming practical and starts becoming ideological? This argument has absolutely nothing OpenOffice specific about it. But if I can apply it equally well to any software, without even knowing which software it is, doesn't it automatically become and ideological argument? This would work perfectly even
[Yet another long post] Re: RMS over Humous - meeting summery
Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does that mean that you draw the line wherever the law goes? That's part of it, but it also seems a reasonable place to draw a line, which I hope is why the law is what it is. After all, I have bought the CD legally, and I only want to listen to parts of it in sequence. I think it's fair. Others may think differently (and may go to jail for their principles). Just because their opinion differs from mine I don't brand them either criminals or traitors to the noble ideals of freedom. Leaving the nitpicking comment that any defined view is a particular one, I don't understand what you have against our current strategy, or why did you exclaim that first statement saying I will not be a part of it. It seems like our current Hamakor strategy is the same as you suggest. I am glad if it is. It is not so clear to me though, because, if you re-read the thread, there are voices that suggest a Stallmanist line as an official policy of Hamakor. All I did was saying that in my opinion it is narrow, divisive, and shouldn't happen. If it does, I'll have to consider what I should do. Does Hamakor have a problem with this? Did you see anyone from this list, or from Hamakor, doing that? Yes. And if they did, but that was under the opinions section? It was on this list. All of this list is opinions. However, there was an explicit opinion (that I respect) that my views were at the core of the Hamakor goals (or something like that), and that I simply had to make them widely known for that reason. Talk to me - what bothers you about Hamakor? The possibility that it will adopt Stallman's POV and start pointing fingers at, boycotting, and whatnot those (members or others) who are deemed traitors to freedom. But why make Linux better if you don't believe, because of ideoligy, that it should be better? I don't see where ideology fits in. I am happier with Linux rather than with Windows because it does work better to me, partly because of GNU and other tools that come with the system, partly because of the transparency that comes with Open Source, partly because it's cheaper, partly for other reasons. And it's still not perfect, so it should be better. And I don't use Windows because of the lack of useful tools and applications, because its protocols and formats are incompatible with anything else (a technical point, mind you), and most of all because of a really pityful interface. If it were technically good enough and worth the money, I'd use it happily. All of this is purely pragmatic, and I don't see anything remotely resembling ideology here. Of course, you can always say that trying to avoid ideology is also an ideology... But why is it that you believe Linux *should* be better at 16-way SMP? Why not just recommend another OS for that task and leave it at that? The only reason I can think of is ideological. Wrong. It well may be that Linux is much better than the other OS in many respects, and were it not for the scalability it would be more suitable for the task, so by eliminating the show-stopper of a scalability problem in Linux I will get a better overall solution. It may be more practical to do that than solve all the problems of the other OS. When does an argument stop becoming practical and starts becoming ideological? When you start branding Linus a traitor because he chooses BitKeeper as his revision control system because BitKeeper is not free. The argument like we'll have a problem if BitMover folds and/or Larry McVoy gets hit by a bus may be practical (or not, if there is a good enough answer to that; btw, often there is, there exist all sorts of schemes that solve the problem even for closed source software), but an argument like BitKeeper cannot be redistributed freely is not. Or when you force your system administrator to switch from qmail to an inferior MTA because qmail takes away freedom #3. Mind you, switching from Linux to Windows because Linux is distributed under a viral license is not a technical argument either. Oops, got caught preaching to the choir... Lets take qmail as an example. Sorry, I have never even tried to use qmail, and I cannot say what its deficiencies, strengths, license terms etc are, so I am out of my depth here. Although it seems significant to me that even a self-professed Stallmanist like Ira uses qmail, apparently choosing technical reasons over pure ideology. Anyway, I do think this is sort of arguing that my religion is better than yours or the other way around, which is precisely my point. I would only like to point out that there may be infinitely many situations where RMS, Ira, you, and myself will make the same choices and same decisions. In some cases we will do it for the same or similar reasons, because I do agree with a lot of what RMS (and you, and Ira) say. In other cases it will be a complete coincidence because we will do it for totally different reasons. Assuming you, like me,
Re: RMS over Humous - meeting summery
Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As a side note, stressing only the technical issues means that issues such as DRM, Trusted Computing and the DMCA are left out altogether. These are technical issues. One should not restrict generic technologies because they can be used for wrong purposes. I certainly didn't mean that. After hitting the send button, I realized that this paragraph was not very well phrased. I'll try and explain what I tried to say. All of the above technologies and laws are bad on technical reasons. That much is true. However, if your view of them is purely technical, you will notice that they are only bad for you IF YOU ARE USING OPEN SOURCE SOFTWARE. If you are not (such as most law makers), they don't seem to be so bad. On the other hand, the principles and freedoms that are taken away from you if these laws and technologies are put in effect affect everyone. Everyone knows why monopolies are bad, what anti-competitive behaviour means and why it's illegal, what free market means and the word choice. Not everyone accepts that if a given technology kills you ability to run Linux, that's a bad thing. What I meant to say is that the idealistic approach has to be taken to combat these things, as we don't have automatic supporters where the decisions are being made. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS over Humous - meeting summery
Ira Abramov [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Quoting Nadav Har'El, from the post of Sat, 11 Jan: I don't know what your basic disagreements are (I guess I'll have to buy you a beer to find out :)) I think Oleg has put it very clearly in a post here, he's against the basic ideals of freedom, and therefore the fact that they are objectively important and global. This sounds suspiciously like I am against freedom and want to send everybody to Gulag, which is just a tiny bit unfair, Ira. What I am against is taking one's ideas of freedom, or any other social or individual value for that matter, and try to present it as universal. Given this, I am in trouble of presenting a comprehensive, concise written formulation of what I think of freedom, because, contrary to Stallman, I don't start from a premise that some particular interpretation of freedom is universal, so I'll get boggled in qualifications trying to be intellectually honest with myself (please don't interpret this as sayign RMS is not intellectually honest - he is, I believe, with himself). Maybe it will suffice for now if I give a couple of examples that I was thinking of while listening to Stallman's talk on Thursday. He made a big deal of arguing that the current state of affairs somehow goes against the basic value of sharing (pardon the quotes, Ira, this is the only word here that is directly lifted from his speech), that society should teach its members, especially children, to share, etc. I disagree. I think that a much more basic value (and virtue) that my future kids should learn is the ability to distinguish whom to share with and whom not to share with. And I am not willing to discuss in advance any criterion that may be applied. Under particular circumstances, I can imagine asking myself, is this person an Israeli?, or is she Jewish?, or does he work at IBM?, or has she paid his membership dues to Hamakor?. I think this is more basic than the general idea of sharing as an ideal, and does explicitly involve the notion of not sharing. Were I to adopt the idea of sharing as basic, essential, and universal, I would not have the freedom to consider not sharing, let alone the freedom not to share. I reserve that freedom to myself. In another example, I think DMCA and DRM and treacherous computing are evil. Why? For instance, I happen to own the latest Diana Krall CD. If you ask me to burn a copy for you, I will refuse, and I hope we can remain friends after that. I will, without any reservation, rip tracks out of the six or seven Diana Krall CDs that I own and burn a CD of favourites to listen to in my car, as a matter of fair use. The reason for my refusal to do the same for you is that I recognize the freedom of Diana Krall and the recording studio to impose restrictions on distribution of the CD and to earn profit from such distribution. What I object to in the legislation in question is what is tantamount to outlawing CD burners because they will let me to make a copy for you. That *is* evil. However, I suspect that Stallman ideologically goes futher than me in his objections. Maybe he doesn't. I suspect he does though, because he comes from the culture or totally unrestricted sharing of information (I am reading Hackers now, and Levy describes that well), and he applies that ethics as widely as he can. Levy describes the Incompatible Time-Sharing System developed and deployed at MIT's AI Lab, that had no passwords. During his previous visit to Israel RMS said that even when there had been passwords everybody at MIT had known his username was rms and his password was rms. He had since been forced to use a real password, and he was still bitter about it. At Stanford's SAIL the time-sharing system provided the users with the ability to have private files (at John McCarthy's insistence), and the hackers around tended to think that whoever uses private files must be doing something, eh, interesting, and one should have a peek. I value my privacy enough to consider this notion of sharing unacceptable. I insist on my freedom to keep some of the stuff I do private. I also insist on my freedom to keep some of the stuff that I produce restricted, without being branded a traitor to the basic ideals of freedom. Besides, the context of computer usage has changed since then, and however strictly you may adhere to the hackers' ethics, I suspect you will have a mostly closed firewall and insist on your users to have good passwords nowadays. On the technology versus ideology level, I have always thought that by simply doing my job as well as I can I am making the society I live in better in some intangible way. What I would like to avoid is doing my job differently because of some preconception I might have regarding what is good for society. For me, it is a matter of intellectual honesty in a technical field. I am used to the idea that the society, or some of its members, might disagree with me. I grew up with this idea. I was fortunate
Re: RMS over Humous - meeting summery
Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: All of the above technologies and laws are bad on technical reasons. That much is true. However, if your view of them is purely technical, you will notice that they are only bad for you IF YOU ARE USING OPEN SOURCE SOFTWARE. If you are not (such as most law makers), they don't seem to be so bad. Why? they are bad if I use anything that is deems illegal or unauthorized, depending on the context. It has nothing at all to do with Open Software (except that maybe part of the motivation of the initiators of these legistations was to make OSS less usable). -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is nothing more practical than idealism. [Richard M. Stallman, quoted with permission] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS over Humous - meeting summery
Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: All of the above technologies and laws are bad on technical reasons. That much is true. However, if your view of them is purely technical, you will notice that they are only bad for you IF YOU ARE USING OPEN SOURCE SOFTWARE. If you are not (such as most law makers), they don't seem to be so bad. Why? they are bad if I use anything that is deems illegal or unauthorized, depending on the context. It has nothing at all to do with Open Software (except that maybe part of the motivation of the initiators of these legistations was to make OSS less usable). It seems to me that you are bringing ideoligy into the discussion, even as you are claiming to reject the notion. Why is it bad that you cannot rip your bought CD and pick and choose tracks for your car? You are not, as you claim, working without an ideoligy. You are just drawing the line somewhere else. Hamakor was founded to give all of these opinions a voice. I can see myself assiging money from the society's resources to sponsoring a talk by Ira about why the four freedoms Stallman defined are important and everyone should be getting them, just as I can see myself assiging those same funds to a talk by you as to why Linux is a great and inviting platform for commercial companies to base their proprietary products on. I don't see any contradition here, as I am only doing what I was elected to do as a board member of Hamakor - giving a stage for the opinions and forces that pushed and are pushing free/open source software forward. Now, if you, as you claimed, do not want to be a part of any organization that pushes forward ideoligy, even if I agree with it, then I am very sorry to say that you will probably not want to be a member of Hamakor. As saddening as it is to me, on a personal level, I cannot change the society's goals because of that. That last statement gets more emphesis by the fact that there is no organization, and defenitely no society, that are not powered by ideoligy. Even when you say you want Hamakor to promote open source software based on technical merits - that's ideoligy. The thing that makes it so is the fact that you don't stop believing it just because people prove you wrong. Linux does not have SMP support as good as SCO, hspell is no competition to Word's Hebrew speller. The problem is even more acute when products such as OpenOffice are discussed. These products are developed purely according to the commercial development model. OpenOffice can offer just two advantages over StarOffice: 1. 1. It is cheaper. 2. If Sun goes down, change license, want to charge more or discontinue the product altogether, you are not left out in the rain. I think we all agree 1 is a technicality, and noone is honestly trying to use that as the major selling point. 2 is a 100% Stallmanistic argument. There is nothing technological about it. I can claim practical reasons for going for 2 as a choosing factors (cheaper support, no threat of extortion, etc.), these are all just the reasons ANY free software is preferable over non-free software. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS over Humous - meeting summery
On Sat, 11 Jan 2003, Nadav Har'El wrote: And excuse me for being pessimistic, but I have a hunch that if the current trends continues, book libraries will also be a thing of the past in 20 years. How long do you think the book publishers will agree to stay out of the pay- per-use or pay-per-eyeball party? Why should they agree to have their books lent out, when the CD and DVD publishers don't let you do that (unless the rental place pays them percentages?). See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html for a story about this. But charging money has nothing to do with freedom. The fact that Stallman repeats this over and over, doesn't necessarily make that true. Charging money does have something to do with freedom, at least the specific sense we're discussing now (being free from corporate control). If a person has a billion dollars, he doesn't care that he's not free to move his DVD collection from the US to Israel - he just leaves them in the US and has his servants get the same ones for him in Israel. Or he pays a million dollars to the studio to have a special all-zone DVD made just for him. A person without money is obviously not free to use that option. A FREE movie, software, book, whatever will allow you to produce a copy at zero cost. So, the billionare could go and buy additional copies, but the average Joe will be able to copy from his/her friends. This is similar to the law in Canada that allows you to copy CDs you took from a library. Alon -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 The RIGHT way to contact me is by e-mail. I am otherwise nonexistent :) -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- Only a brain-damaged operating system would support task switching and not make the simple next step of supporting multitasking. -- George McFry = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS over Humous - meeting summery
Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It seems to me that you are bringing ideoligy into the discussion, even as you are claiming to reject the notion. I don't see how. Why is it bad that you cannot rip your bought CD and pick and choose tracks for your car? You are not, as you claim, working without an ideoligy. You are just drawing the line somewhere else. I wholeheartedly agree with that - it's a line-drawing game, and it only emphasizes the idea that right and wrong are not universal. I choose to draw the line beyond fair use because fair use is an established legal principle that would be a real pity to abolish. Abolishing the technology that allows me to do that because it may be used (by someone else) to copy CDs illegally is evil. This is a far cry however from saying CDs should be freely shared, which is something I would object to as well. Hamakor was founded to give all of these opinions a voice. I can see myself assiging money from the society's resources to sponsoring a talk by Ira about why the four freedoms Stallman defined are important and everyone should be getting them, just as I can see myself assiging those same funds to a talk by you as to why Linux is a great and inviting platform for commercial companies to base their proprietary products on. I don't see any contradition here, as I am only doing what I was elected to do as a board member of Hamakor - giving a stage for the opinions and forces that pushed and are pushing free/open source software forward. Please don't distort what I said. I said I would be glad if Hamakor would provide an opportunity for everybody to express their views. I would object, and I wouldn't want to be a part of organization that would adopt a particular viewpoint as its official one. This is tantamount to taking freedom away, which is exactly what Stallman does. Let me repeat it again: Stallman is against freedom. Stallman says, this is what I think the world should look like. This is called freedom. Whoever disagrees with that point of view is against freedom. Well, I think that the world should look differently. I insist on my freedom to disagree, and I consider it gross verbal abuse to appeal to a generic, noble, universal notion of freedom, after defining it as the same as one's particular point of view, to brand me (or Linus, or whoever) this or that. Yes, there are different points of view, even on freedom. If you (not you, Shachar, and not you, Ira, an abstract you) need a mathematical proof of that, here it goes: I have a different point of view from Stallman's, therefore his ideas on freedom are not universal. If you don't accept that, you are working against freedom. This may not be your intention, in fact I have no doubts that you have the best intentions, but a well-paved hell is the result of it. By not accepting that, by stating or implying that I am somehow inherently evil or morally inferior because I disagree with Stallman on what freedom is, you are taking my freedom away. According to my definition of freedom, that is. This is what bothers me so much in Stallman's view of the world. I am sorry, this should have gone into my response to Ira, but I hope that whoever bothers to read one of the postings will read both. Now, if you, as you claimed, do not want to be a part of any organization that pushes forward ideoligy, even if I agree with it, then I am very sorry to say that you will probably not want to be a member of Hamakor. As saddening as it is to me, on a personal level, I cannot change the society's goals because of that. It would be sad to me too, and if it comes to that I pledge here and now to be as supportive of Hamakor as I can from the outside. I don't need to be a member to do that. That last statement gets more emphesis by the fact that there is no organization, and defenitely no society, that are not powered by ideoligy. I am a member of at least one organization that, to my knowledge, has no ideological creed except that people should do their work as well as they can, ethically, and professionally. If one chooses to call this ideology, it is. It's a line-drawing game. Even when you say you want Hamakor to promote open source software based on technical merits - that's ideoligy. Maybe. It's an ideology of trying to make things work better. It is, IMHO, a very broad and inclusive ideology, as opposed to Stallman's. The thing that makes it so is the fact that you don't stop believing it just because people prove you wrong. Linux does not have SMP support as good as SCO, hspell is no competition to Word's Hebrew speller. And promoting free and open source software, in my mind, is working towards making Linux better, not arguing that one should use it even though it's worse because it will liberate you in some way, while taking away your freedom to use a 16-way SMP machine that you may really need to do the job. The problem is even more acute when products such as
Re: RMS over Humous - meeting summery
On Sat, 11 Jan 2003, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: In another example, I think DMCA and DRM and treacherous computing are evil. Why? For instance, I happen to own the latest Diana Krall CD. If you ask me to burn a copy for you, I will refuse, and I hope we can remain friends after that. I will, without any reservation, rip tracks out of the six or seven Diana Krall CDs that I own and burn a CD of favourites to listen to in my car, as a matter of fair use. The reason for my refusal to do the same for you is that I recognize the freedom of Diana Krall and the recording studio to impose restrictions on distribution of the CD and to earn profit from such distribution. What I object to in the legislation in question is what is tantamount to outlawing CD burners because they will let me to make a copy for you. That *is* evil. However, I suspect that Stallman ideologically goes futher than me in his objections. Maybe he doesn't. I suspect he does though, because he comes from the culture or totally unrestricted sharing of information (I am reading Hackers now, and Levy describes that well), and he applies that ethics as widely as he can. Well, according to RMS, Diana Krall has no basic right to impose restrictions on you. Copyright law was designed to create more original works by giving the author a limited right to restrict copying. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/misinterpreting-copyright.html Alon -- This message was sent by Alon Altman ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) ICQ:1366540 The RIGHT way to contact me is by e-mail. I am otherwise nonexistent :) -- -=[ Random Fortune ]=- QOTD: The only easy way to tell a hamster from a gerbil is that the gerbil has more dark meat. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS over Humous - meeting summery
On Fri, Jan 10, 2003, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote about Re: RMS over Humous - meeting summery: Nadav Har'El [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Book libraries existed and nobody thought that paying $10 a year for a library subscription (when one book costs more than that) was cheating the publishers out of their earning. Libraries still exist, last time I checked. Of course book libraries still exist. But what about the new kinds of media that have been invented in the last two decades? How come they did not appear in public libraries? CDs? Videos? DVDs? Software? And excuse me for being pessimistic, but I have a hunch that if the current trends continues, book libraries will also be a thing of the past in 20 years. How long do you think the book publishers will agree to stay out of the pay- per-use or pay-per-eyeball party? Why should they agree to have their books lent out, when the CD and DVD publishers don't let you do that (unless the rental place pays them percentages?). Already, various forms of EBooks (slated to replace books printed on sheets of dead trees) prevent you from lending out your ebook, using all sorts of tricks of binding a copy of a ebook to one machine. Software also does it. But charging money has nothing to do with freedom. The fact that Stallman repeats this over and over, doesn't necessarily make that true. Charging money does have something to do with freedom, at least the specific sense we're discussing now (being free from corporate control). If a person has a billion dollars, he doesn't care that he's not free to move his DVD collection from the US to Israel - he just leaves them in the US and has his servants get the same ones for him in Israel. Or he pays a million dollars to the studio to have a special all-zone DVD made just for him. A person without money is obviously not free to use that option. Returning down to earth for a moment: when I was a kid and we didn't have much money, I was free to read any book I wanted, because (among other things) we had a very cheap library (in fact, it was a library-on-wheels that came to our street once or twice a week). However I was not free to watch any movie I wanted. Why? We didn't have a VCR (those were outrageously expensive in Israel), and even if we did we would not have been able to afford to buy videos. And because VCRs were too expensive to afford, video rental stores also did not exist in Israel initially. So certain things costing too much *does* effect the people's freedom to use them. In a short lecture I gave in Haifux about free software (see http://nadav.harel.org.il/essays/chofesh/lecture.html) I discussed the advantages of free software (including, but not only, freedom), and I pointed to another freedom given by free software that Stallman always hides because of his it's about freedom, not no-cost mantra. Here's a translated quote from what I wrote there ... The fact that free software can be copied without cost (or at a tiny cost) grants the user another type of freedom: Even a person who agrees to spend money on buying software usually has a limited budget. He can not afford dozens of different commercial softwares costing tens or hundreds of dollars each. For example, a curious child might want, in order to learn and develop himself, to buy an operating-system, a word-processor, a painting program, software development packages for a few programming languages, email software, and more. Should he want to use commercial software without breaking the law, he would have to give up some of his ambitions. On the other hand, if he were to use free software, he could afford all of them, and even try a new free program every day. The freedom to learn, experience, and act is especially important to children, but obviously also for curious adults who are trying to learn. ... (and yes, MosheZ, I do know that quoting myself doesn't make what I say true :) ). Please don't take it as my disagreement with everything you wrote - I do in fact agree with much of it, I am just avoiding me too. And please don't take what I just wrote as a disagreement with you. You're a very interesting person to debate, to be sure :) (please take that as a compliment). Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is nothing more practical than idealism. [Richard M. Stallman, quoted with permission] I like the with permission brag :) -- Nadav Har'El| Saturday, Jan 11 2003, 8 Shevat 5763 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Life can only be understood backwards but http://nadav.harel.org.il |it must be lived forwards. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS over Humous - meeting summery
On Fri, Jan 10, 2003, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote about Re: RMS over Humous - meeting summery: Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Good idea. Nadav, with your permission I would like to put that up on Hamakor. Under Nadav's name, I hope, not as a part of Hamakor's position. Right. I have no official stand in the Amuta, obviously. preaching for freedom as he does. I hope the new amuta will stress technical issues rather than ideological ones. I hope the amuta will replace your rather than with an as well as. The Amuta's name has free software and open source, right? Let's understand it as ideological issues and practical issues, and act accordingly. Neither should be stessed over the other. -- Nadav Har'El| Saturday, Jan 11 2003, 8 Shevat 5763 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Sorry, but my karma just ran over your http://nadav.harel.org.il |dogma. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS over Humous - meeting summery
On Fri, Jan 10, 2003, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote about Re: RMS over Humous - meeting summery: I also agree with some things that RMS says. I do disagree with his ideas about freedom though on a vary basic level, but I will only discuss that over some free beer. ;-) On this list it would be off-topic. I don't know what your basic disagreements are (I guess I'll have to buy you a beer to find out :)), but one obvious (and often-stated) objection goes something like that What, we don't have freedom? Just look at the people at some-other-country-with-less-freedom. They can't even do this or that! So don't go whine about not being able to copy software. This is obviously true, but like Stallman says: when you consider freedom important, and your best (and perhaps only) skill is programming, the best (and perhaps only) thing you could do for humanity is to apply those skills for the cause. I.e., write free software. On the other hand, if you're a good politician, a charismatic leader, then indeed you might do the country more good by doing something about more fundumental issues of freedom (civil rights, etc.). Another common objection, especially in the US in last two years, is If we had any more freedom, the terrorists will get us! But anybody with a little sense in his or her head can figure out that terrorists are NOT in the business of copying software, or even downloading mp3 music from the net. P.S. Stallman loves to use the word Freedom, which is why we're discussing this value so much now. But I believe that Stallman's words (part of which I summarized in my fake interview yesterday) should be interpreted more broadly to say: Free Software is important because of its values, not because of its practical advantages. I don't believe that Freedom is the only value that should be mentioned in this regard. In my essays (sorry for the usual plug: [1]) I explained why I believe that two other values should be stressed as well when discussing the moral advantages of free software: Equality and Fraternity. Richard Stallman does agree with me that these two values are also important, but he rarely mentions them - maybe because of pedagogical reasons (focus your aim) or because he really thinks they are less important. He did mention those values, though, in [2] (you'll need to be able to read French to read this speech that Stallman gave in 1998 in Paris). [1] http://nadav.harel.org.il/essays/chofesh/index.html [2] http://www.april.org/actions/rms/10111998/texte.html -- Nadav Har'El| Saturday, Jan 11 2003, 8 Shevat 5763 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Guarantee: this email is 100% free of http://nadav.harel.org.il |magnetic monopoles, or your money back! = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS over Humous - meeting summery
Nadav Har'El [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: preaching for freedom as he does. I hope the new amuta will stress technical issues rather than ideological ones. I hope the amuta will replace your rather than with an as well as. The Amuta's name has free software and open source, right? Let's understand it as ideological issues and practical issues, and act accordingly. Neither should be stessed over the other. The more I think about it, the more problem I have with it. I distrust ideology (managing to respect the notion in the process), and I have resolved many years ago that I would not be a member of any organization whose purposes and charter are beyond purely professional. This is regardless of whether I support the ideology in question or not. Please don't take it as reflecting in any negative way on Hamakor or its members or their views. I would like to hope that Hamakor could be an organization of cpmputer professionals that deals with technology, leaving ideology to Opinion pages. I don't think Hamakor should *explicitly* deal with bringing freedom to the society, noble as the cause may be. If Hamakor has ideological purposes, I'll have to deal with the conflict with who I am. I guess I'll have to re-read the amuta's web site. -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is nothing more practical than idealism. [Richard M. Stallman, quoted with permission] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS over Humous - meeting summery
Quoting Nadav Har'El, from the post of Sat, 11 Jan: I don't know what your basic disagreements are (I guess I'll have to buy you a beer to find out :)) I think Oleg has put it very clearly in a post here, he's against the basic ideals of freedom, and therefore the fact that they are objectively important and global. (If I got it wrong, Oleg, DO correct me, because the issue is already on the table, and I don't want to wait till we get to a pub. I don't see any reason you should hide your opinions, unless you are ashamed of them for some reason. we are intrigued to know what they are) I have no idea how to even reply to such a statement from a guy that had actually experianced since birth what the lack of freedom begets in the eastern bloc. I don't believe that Freedom is the only value that should be mentioned in this regard. In my essays (sorry for the usual plug: [1]) I explained why I believe that two other values should be stressed as well when discussing the moral advantages of free software: Equality and Fraternity. and my guess is, Oleg will not agree on these either. (again, I'm trying to provoke an answer from him about this :) The Amuta's name has free software and open source, right? Let's understand it as ideological issues and practical issues, and act accordingly. Neither should be stessed over the other. exactly. that's why I was hurt by Oleg's suggestion that we 'drop the freedom issue from the main pages of the amuta'. and as I said, you wouldn't see me asking to drop the issue of the openness of the source, so what gives? Why all of our care not to include commercial companies as members? Afterall if Freedom is not that important, Sun can man our vaad and IBM the critics comitee... so you see, Oleg, it is VERY important to me that you explain your views and objection to the use of the word freedom, as my compatriat in the founders team, I'd REALLY like to know, since I do find this a core issue. -- We don't need no thought control Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ This post is encrypted twice with ROT-13. Documenting or attempting to crack this encryption is illegal. msg24793/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: RMS Dinner
http://www.haaretz.co.il/hasite/pages/ShArtPE.jhtml?itemNo=247510contrassID=2subContrassID=13sbSubContrassID=0 I couldn't find it in the English version of haaretz On Thu, 9 Jan 2003, Shaul Karl wrote: 1. http://www.haaretz.co.il. 2. Click near the upper left most corner for the English edition. 2. At the upper selection boxes choose the print edition. 3. At the left most column, possibly at the bottom of the screen (not the page) there is a box to Select Day for Previous Editions. According to the list archive the article was published on Jan 3. 4. According to the list archive the article was published in the Friday Magazine. What I was able to get is a page with the headers, some commercials and a magazine title. Nothing more. -- Thanks, Uri http://translation.israel.net = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS Dinner
Hello Mr. Stallman, IGLU people, On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 11:48:54PM +0200, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: Well, thanks to everybody who came. I did not count, but someone did, and there were more than 30 people (34?). It was a little bit too many for an orderly discussion, but I think some self-organization took place somewhere in the middle of the evening, and I hope no one is too angry. Anyone who cares to summarize is welcome to do so. Special thanks to Muli for sharing the organizational effort, and to Shachar who agreed to take RMS to Haifa tomorrow. Once again, apologies for starting a bit late. RMS has had way too many adventures and misfortunes on his way here to list, and some mundane logistics had to be taken care of between his checking into the hotel and our arrival at the restaurant. He told me that he always plans his trips to have 24 hours spare before his scheduled appearance. This was the first time he had about 20 hours or so, and just about everything that could go wrong did. He came to the dinner practically straight from the airport. I would like to personally apologize to everybody for keeping the suspense up (whether or not RMS will come, whether he is at the hotel already, etc) till the very last moment. I hope I took enough care to qualify my statements throughout - I was suspecting I was being fed incomplete and unreliable information by the person who had told the world RMS would be in his care (for those who wonder, IBM - my employer - was not responsible). As it turned out, my suspicions were fully justified. All is well that ends. One amusing question RMS asked me - and asked me to ask the gang - is as follows. Before the trip he was contacted by two women who asked him out, and he is going to go out with both (separately) during his stay here. At least one of the ladies, possibly both, learned of his existence from a recent article in Ha'aretz. RMS says it is the first time this happens to him, and he is very curious *what* was written in that article. If anyone has read the article, do share it with him. I read it through their web site. The paragraph third from the bottom, says (free translation from Hebrew): In his personal website (www.stallman.org), Stallman represents himself as someone who seeks love: (here comes a quite good translation of the first two paragraphs from My Personal Ad in your site.) However, even in his acquaintance ad (probably not the exact word in English) Stallman clarifies what are his priorities in life: (here comes the third paragraph from My Personal Ad) Even if there is room in his heart, it's not clear where he will accommodate his love, considering he lives in the movements' offices. Sorry for the bad English, I hope this helps. Didi I don't read newspapers, so I couldn't help him here. -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS Dinner
On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 11:48:54PM +0200, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: Special thanks to Muli for sharing the organizational effort, and to Shachar who agreed to take RMS to Haifa tomorrow. No sir, I didn't do much except give my opinion once in a while. I do that quite easily, I have many of them. Thank *you* for getting this thing together. I think that everyone that was there will agree that it was a fascinating evening. I'll write up a summary of today's happenings after I've gotten some sleep. -- Muli Ben-Yehuda my opinions may seem crazy. But they all make sense. Insane sense, but sense nontheless. -- Shlomi Fish on #offtopic. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS Dinner
Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: Special thanks to Muli for sharing the organizational effort, and to Shachar who agreed to take RMS to Haifa tomorrow. Hmm, let's see. Miss ~two hours of lectures and gain 1 hour private time with RMS. Besides, I've said before I'm looking to share the long drive with someone. One amusing question RMS asked me - and asked me to ask the gang - is as follows. Before the trip he was contacted by two women who asked him out, and he is going to go out with both (separately) during his stay here. At least one of the ladies, possibly both, learned of his existence from a recent article in Ha'aretz. RMS says it is the first time this happens to him, and he is very curious *what* was written in that article. If anyone has read the article, do share it with him. I think I know the answer. The article had an explicit mention that he has not found his true love yet, and that he is looking for candidates. That usually triggers them. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS Dinner
On Wed, Jan 08, 2003, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote about RMS Dinner: ... He told me that he always plans his trips to have 24 hours spare before his scheduled appearance. This was the first time he had about 20 hours or so, and just about everything that could go wrong did. He came to the dinner practically straight from the airport. ... Oleg (and Muli, and whoever was in charge of organizing this dinner) - thanks! But I hope Stallman was not too offended from how us Israelis manhandled him ;) To me it appeared that some of us could not respect the troubles that he has gone through to be at that dinner. This guy goes to a dinner right out of the airport, and instead of letting him relax and eat, and chat a bit, he gets accosted (and in some moments, ganged-up on). At some moments I was even afraid he'll suffocate from all the people who were leaning on his table... With all due respect, Stallman is not our equal, he's our mentor/idol/hero. We all knew him but he knew (almost) none of us. A little more humility was in order, in my opinion. When 30-40 gather in a very small room to honor one very tired guy, he does not really need to shake every one of these people's hands, or pretend like he is trying to learn their name. He does not have to spend 10 minutes on each person answering questions this person might have, especially not questions that offend him, i.e., any question that includes the words open source or linux :) All in all, personally it was very nice for me to see Stallman in person, talking and eating Chumus. I just hope that Stallman was ok with the whole ordeal. One amusing question RMS asked me - and asked me to ask the gang - is as follows. Before the trip he was contacted by two women who asked him out, and he is going to go out with both (separately) during his stay here. At least one of the ladies, possibly both, learned of his existence from a recent article in Ha'aretz. RMS says it is the first time this happens to him, and he is very curious *what* was written in that article. If anyone has read the article, do share it with him. I don't have the link right now, but it was given on linux-il a few days ago; The same article appeared on both haaretz and walla. This was one of the best articles on free software I've seen in a long time in the Israeli media. I think it portrayed Stallman in a very heroic manner, an idealist only after the common good. On the other hand, the article did not white-wash anything, an portrayed Stallman as a man of conviction, who will not sell-out even at the cost of boycotting all proprietary software and fighting every windmill in sight. I heard from some people that Haaretz's depiction of Stallman made them decide that he was a dangerous fundementalist, a pipe dreamer or a raving lunatic, or worse, a communist. For me (and I guess a lot of other people, and probably those two women), it did the exact opposite, and made me think very highly of him (as if I didn't think highly enough of him as it is...). If I remember correctly, the article also mentioned that he was looking for a woman. -- Nadav Har'El| Thursday, Jan 9 2003, 6 Shevat 5763 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |An error? Impossible! My modem is error http://nadav.harel.org.il |correcting. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS Dinner
Nadav Har'El wrote: Re: RMS Dinner [snip] Oleg (and Muli, and whoever was in charge of organizing this dinner) - thanks! Hear hear. [snip] With all due respect, Stallman is not our equal, he's our mentor/idol/hero. We all knew him but he knew (almost) none of us. A little more humility was in order, in my opinion. When 30-40 gather in a very small room to honor one very tired guy, he does not really need to shake every one of these people's hands, or pretend like he is trying to learn their name. He does not have to spend 10 minutes on each person answering questions this person might have, especially not questions that offend him, i.e., any question that includes the words open source or linux :) The group was reorganizing itself as the evening went on. From time to time a person would move to a different location, generally closer. At the end, it looked much like a congregation, where everybody's eyes were on Richard. It really looked like he was an idol. He's a good speaker, an evangelist to freedom you might say. I think he was happy for the opportunity to have an eager crowd. I would. You can ask him, though. One amusing question RMS asked me - and asked me to ask the gang - is as follows. Before the trip he was contacted by two women who asked him out, and he is going to go out with both (separately) during his stay here. At least one of the ladies, possibly both, learned of his existence from a recent article in Ha'aretz. RMS says it is the first time this happens to him, and he is very curious *what* was written in that article. If anyone has read the article, do share it with him. I don't have the link right now, but it was given on linux-il a few days ago; The same article appeared on both haaretz and walla. This was one of the best articles on free software I've seen in a long time in the Israeli media. I think it portrayed Stallman in a very heroic manner, an idealist only after the common good. On the other hand, the article did not white-wash anything, an portrayed Stallman as a man of conviction, who will not sell-out even at the cost of boycotting all proprietary software and fighting every windmill in sight. I heard from some people that Haaretz's depiction of Stallman made them decide that he was a dangerous fundementalist, a pipe dreamer or a raving lunatic, or worse, a communist. For me (and I guess a lot of other people, and probably those two women), it did the exact opposite, and made me think very highly of him (as if I didn't think highly enough of him as it is...). If I remember correctly, the article also mentioned that he was looking for a woman. I have the article in print. Come tomorrow, I will submit a rough translation. -- Arik = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS Dinner
On Wed, Jan 08, 2003 at 11:48:54PM +0200, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: One amusing question RMS asked me - and asked me to ask the gang - is as follows. Before the trip he was contacted by two women who asked him out, and he is going to go out with both (separately) during his stay here. At least one of the ladies, possibly both, learned of his existence from a recent article in Ha'aretz. RMS says it is the first time this happens to him, and he is very curious *what* was written in that article. If anyone has read the article, do share it with him. I don't read newspapers, so I couldn't help him here. Perhaps he would be able to get the article online or someone might make a hard copy of it. I couldn't but that could be due to not using IE - I don't know the exact reason, perhaps it is more subtle. Haaretz also claims for phone and other tech support - there is a link on the home page. However it is too late to call them (03-5121133) right now since on week days their latest time is 24:00. Follows the furthest I could reach, do excuse me if those guidelines are too detailed. 1. http://www.haaretz.co.il. 2. Click near the upper left most corner for the English edition. 2. At the upper selection boxes choose the print edition. 3. At the left most column, possibly at the bottom of the screen (not the page) there is a box to Select Day for Previous Editions. According to the list archive the article was published on Jan 3. 4. According to the list archive the article was published in the Friday Magazine. What I was able to get is a page with the headers, some commercials and a magazine title. Nothing more. -- Shaul Karl, [EMAIL PROTECTED] e t = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS Dinner
Muli Ben-Yehuda [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: No sir, I didn't do much except give my opinion once in a while. I do I think you are being overly modest, my friend. And that's not counting holding the defensive position against over 30 enraged free software enthusiasts waiting for RMS to appear. For almost an hour. All alone, apart from Orna's support... ;-) -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS story in ynet(walla)
I ment on walla not ynet ofcourse:) Ely Levy System group Hebrew University Jerusalem Israel On Fri, 3 Jan 2003, Ely Levy wrote: http://news.walla.co.il/ts.cgi?tsscript=itempath=4id=331040 I think it's nothing original but qoutes from old places Ely Levy System group Hebrew University Jerusalem Israel = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS story in ynet
On Friday 03 January 2003 15:36, Ely Levy wrote: RMS story in walla, maybe ;) http://news.walla.co.il/ts.cgi?tsscript=itempath=4id=331040 I think it's nothing original but qoutes from old places Ely Levy System group Hebrew University Jerusalem Israel = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Questions to RMS (was: Re: RMS, T'so and the LUG)
the RMS visit is getting closer and closer. As well, it appears, as the war in Iraq. I just hope the whole event won't be canceled. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Questions to RMS (was: Re: RMS, T'so and the LUG)
On Monday 23 December 2002 10:49, Dvir Volk wrote: the RMS visit is getting closer and closer. RMS does not strike me as the kind of guy that will postpone a visit over something silly like a little war... did you read this guy's political doc's?? :) tal. As well, it appears, as the war in Iraq. I just hope the whole event won't be canceled. To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Questions to RMS (was: Re: RMS, T'so and the LUG)
Unless he's willing to swim here, if you believe the newspapers and remember the previous war, commercial flights will cease in case some objects start flying in unauthorized vertical paths. :-) Practical suggestion - let's just plan as if everything is going to be ok and at worst the plans will get cancelled. On Monday 23 December 2002 10:49, Dvir Volk wrote: the RMS visit is getting closer and closer. RMS does not strike me as the kind of guy that will postpone a visit over something silly like a little war... did you read this guy's political doc's?? :) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Questions to RMS (was: Re: RMS, T'so and the LUG)
On Monday 23 December 2002 14:59, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: we are fully intended to do just that ;) tal. Unless he's willing to swim here, if you believe the newspapers and remember the previous war, commercial flights will cease in case some objects start flying in unauthorized vertical paths. :-) Practical suggestion - let's just plan as if everything is going to be ok and at worst the plans will get cancelled. On Monday 23 December 2002 10:49, Dvir Volk wrote: the RMS visit is getting closer and closer. RMS does not strike me as the kind of guy that will postpone a visit over something silly like a little war... did you read this guy's political doc's?? :) = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Questions to RMS (was: Re: RMS, T'so and the LUG)
On Wednesday 18 December 2002 21:06, Omer Zak wrote: the RMS visit is getting closer and closer. if you people are serious about creating a list of questions for a translated interview, please send them to me, and I'll add them to omer's and eli's. tal. Meanwhile I thought about questions to RMS. 1. What is RMS' exact position about software which is burned into ROM and put into an instrument/device/appliance? Should the customer have access to the source code and to a means for replacing the software? 2. What if the ROM mentioned in (1) is really a PROM or flash ROM, which is modifiable in field? 3. Sometimes, in order to be able to finish modifying software for which you have the source code, you need to be able to prove that your modification has no unintended consequences. Therefore you need access to a regression test suite. In view of the above, should such a regression test suite be considered as source code (meaning form in which is the easiest to modify the software) as far as GPL is concerned? If not, why not? On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Ely Levy wrote: ok I have 2 to offer, [... snipped ...] --- Omer WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS, T'so and the LUG
sure lets act like spinless people in order to please the great RMS, how about changing it to RFC (RMS fun club?) if it's for his honor great, if it's to please him so he would agree to see us btw oleg the part about we going to contact RMS so don't overflow him and then saying that if only 10 people can you meet him then all the rest should wait for whatever, it sounds kind of bad. it's like saying his mine his mine anyone who want to talk to him should go through me. well just noting I guess if anyone has the right to do that it's you and mulix being the celebraty of our LUG;) oh and one last idea, How about asking him for an interview for whatsup? something in slashdot style where people send questions and he get to answer the few more asked ones. I think that would make a lot of people happy. Ely Levy System group Hebrew University Jerusalem Israel On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Shlomi Fish wrote: On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Ira Abramov wrote: Quoting Shlomi Fish, from the post of Wed, 18 Dec: last time (I think) we decided both ways were acceptable and fine. we Are you suggesting we change the banner to read Israeli GNU/Linux Users?Temporarily or Permanently? Anyway, I like Israeli Group of Linux Users better. as I said, both are fine. last time RMS was invited to lecture for a LUG that didn't call itself GNU/Linux he ended up lecturing TO them and almost conditioned his lecture on them changing the name... I think it would be nice to change, if only for a month. Hmm.. I don't think I agree with you. We can introduce ourselves as the Israeli Group of Linux Users/Israeli GNU/Linux Users - your preference. But I don't see changing the logo as a step that I would like to take. I don't have objections of calling a Linux system a Linux system and not a GNU/Linux system. There is no point in temporarily changing our name just to satisfy Stallman's whims. (it's not a very honest action if you ask me) Judaism is essentially a peopleship, that the Jewish religion is a small (and unnecessary) part of. ahem, don't confuse religion with politics and theism (belief systems where metaphysics are involved) with kfia datit. Definitions of Nation/people/religion and the Jewish questions are problematic and POV-dependant, and the philosophical discussions are very interesting but off topic here. Agreeed. however do yourself a favor, even if you DO thinksome = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Novel RMS Questions, anyone? (was: Re: RMS, T'so and the LUG)
On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Ely Levy wrote: oh and one last idea, How about asking him for an interview for whatsup? something in slashdot style where people send questions and he get to answer the few more asked ones. I think that would make a lot of people happy. Beside the political questions, are there any interesting questions, which Hebrew-speaking Mideast people may ask, and which were not already asked by countless Slashdot readers and contributors? --- Omer WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Novel RMS Questions, anyone? (was: Re: RMS, T'so and the LUG)
On Wednesday 18 December 2002 19:43, Omer Zak wrote: if there will be enough people who want to participate in such an interview (send questions that they want to ask, that is) I'll be more then happy to do the job, translate everything and post the answers to the site for everyone's use. tal. On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Ely Levy wrote: oh and one last idea, How about asking him for an interview for whatsup? something in slashdot style where people send questions and he get to answer the few more asked ones. I think that would make a lot of people happy. Beside the political questions, are there any interesting questions, which Hebrew-speaking Mideast people may ask, and which were not already asked by countless Slashdot readers and contributors? --- Omer WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS, T'so and the LUG
On Wednesday 18 December 2002 20:40, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: Ely Levy [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: btw oleg the part about we going to contact RMS so don't overflow him and then saying that if only 10 people can you meet him then all the rest should wait for whatever, it sounds kind of bad. it's like saying his mine his mine anyone who want to talk to him should go through me. well just noting I guess if anyone has the right to do that it's you and mulix being the celebraty of our LUG;) No, no, sorry for misunderstanding. I certainly hope that he won't say anything of the kind, and I don't know what we should do in that case. I just didn't think there should be a barrage from emails to him from different people saying Would you accept a free pint from some people from the local LUG / free s/w community / whatever. Obviously, I am not going to even raise the question about the number of people who will attend. I do think that if he say, the evening of the 9th in Haifa is OK, but I am busy on the 8th, then it will be in Haifa on the 9th because it is convenient to him, even if it is inconvenient for some of the IGLU members. I thought it was reasonable. If he says no, I'll post it to the list, and anyone who wants can try again. As things stand now, anyone can send him an email. I just thought it would be a good idea to do something co-ordinated. I promise to post whatever he says, if anything. Someone had to start... I remeber drinking beer with Maddog - I don't think there were 10 people there, by the way, and that's after a meeting which dozens of people attended... oh and one last idea, How about asking him for an interview for whatsup? something in slashdot style where people send questions and he get to answer the few more asked ones. I think that would make a lot of people happy. Amir? as i said before, let's gather the questions, set the date and manner for the interview (in person, online etc...) and i'll be happy to do it. tal. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS, T'so and the LUG
ok I have 2 to offer, 1) about whats her name law offer to prevent goverment from buying non opensource things 2) About what he think should be done to push linux in israel and solve the hebrew problem which stop so many people from using it. 3) What people can do to push linux into the education system. well I have one last which is not israel related but I think it's important: 4) What plans they have to motivate hardware maker make drivers for linux, and why aren't they cooperating on the subject with other nix based OSs? my 2 ag Ely Levy System group Hebrew University Jerusalem Israel On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Amir Tal wrote: On Wednesday 18 December 2002 20:40, Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: Ely Levy [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: btw oleg the part about we going to contact RMS so don't overflow him and then saying that if only 10 people can you meet him then all the rest should wait for whatever, it sounds kind of bad. it's like saying his mine his mine anyone who want to talk to him should go through me. well just noting I guess if anyone has the right to do that it's you and mulix being the celebraty of our LUG;) No, no, sorry for misunderstanding. I certainly hope that he won't say anything of the kind, and I don't know what we should do in that case. I just didn't think there should be a barrage from emails to him from different people saying Would you accept a free pint from some people from the local LUG / free s/w community / whatever. Obviously, I am not going to even raise the question about the number of people who will attend. I do think that if he say, the evening of the 9th in Haifa is OK, but I am busy on the 8th, then it will be in Haifa on the 9th because it is convenient to him, even if it is inconvenient for some of the IGLU members. I thought it was reasonable. If he says no, I'll post it to the list, and anyone who wants can try again. As things stand now, anyone can send him an email. I just thought it would be a good idea to do something co-ordinated. I promise to post whatever he says, if anything. Someone had to start... I remeber drinking beer with Maddog - I don't think there were 10 people there, by the way, and that's after a meeting which dozens of people attended... oh and one last idea, How about asking him for an interview for whatsup? something in slashdot style where people send questions and he get to answer the few more asked ones. I think that would make a lot of people happy. Amir? as i said before, let's gather the questions, set the date and manner for the interview (in person, online etc...) and i'll be happy to do it. tal. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Questions to RMS (was: Re: RMS, T'so and the LUG)
Meanwhile I thought about questions to RMS. 1. What is RMS' exact position about software which is burned into ROM and put into an instrument/device/appliance? Should the customer have access to the source code and to a means for replacing the software? 2. What if the ROM mentioned in (1) is really a PROM or flash ROM, which is modifiable in field? 3. Sometimes, in order to be able to finish modifying software for which you have the source code, you need to be able to prove that your modification has no unintended consequences. Therefore you need access to a regression test suite. In view of the above, should such a regression test suite be considered as source code (meaning form in which is the easiest to modify the software) as far as GPL is concerned? If not, why not? On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Ely Levy wrote: ok I have 2 to offer, [... snipped ...] --- Omer WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Questions to RMS (was: Re: RMS, T'so and the LUG)
On Wednesday 18 December 2002 21:06, Omer Zak wrote: OK, so far i have questions from omer and eli. keep sending them in, and I'll create a final list of questions, and post it here for your approval. tal. Meanwhile I thought about questions to RMS. 1. What is RMS' exact position about software which is burned into ROM and put into an instrument/device/appliance? Should the customer have access to the source code and to a means for replacing the software? 2. What if the ROM mentioned in (1) is really a PROM or flash ROM, which is modifiable in field? 3. Sometimes, in order to be able to finish modifying software for which you have the source code, you need to be able to prove that your modification has no unintended consequences. Therefore you need access to a regression test suite. In view of the above, should such a regression test suite be considered as source code (meaning form in which is the easiest to modify the software) as far as GPL is concerned? If not, why not? On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Ely Levy wrote: ok I have 2 to offer, [... snipped ...] --- Omer WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS in israel
Amir Tal wrote: for those who are (still) not updated : http://net.nana.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=49331 I'm still not, how about a synopsis in English? TIA, Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson MobilEye Vision Technologies Ltd, R.M.P.E House, 10 Hartom St. Har Hotzvim Jerusalem, 91450 Israel Tel: +972-2-5417-356 Cell: +972-55-667-090 Do sysadmins count networked sheep? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS in israel
On Tue, Dec 17, 2002 at 08:19:41PM +0200, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: Amir Tal wrote: for those who are (still) not updated : http://net.nana.co.il/Article/?ArticleID=49331 I'm still not, how about a synopsis in English? TIA, Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson MobilEye Vision Technologies Ltd, R.M.P.E House, 10 Hartom St. Har Hotzvim Jerusalem, 91450 Israel Tel: +972-2-5417-356 Cell: +972-55-667-090 Do sysadmins count networked sheep? Thank you Amir for mentioning it. As for mentioning English, I hope that the speakers' English will not be too fluent that I will have troubles to follow it. Yet I was not invited and it could be that most Israeli attending don't have this problem. I have tried to write an English synopsis but got something which is more of a translation. Hopefully the English is reasonable and the translation is accurate. In particular, I made an attempt not to express any political views, both in the context of FSF - free software movement - Linux and in the context of the Israeli - Arabic conflict. The title: Father of open source will be visiting Israel Richard M. Stallman, the founder of the Free Software Foundation (FSF), will be lecturing in a joint convention of IBM and Tel-Aviv University; Fainting of Admirers-Geeks are to be expected. Richard M. Stallman, the father of the open source movement and the founder of the Free Software Foundation (FSF) will arrive to Israel at the beginning of January. Stallman will be lecturing on the FSF and the Linux operating system as part of the GNU Linux, Free Software Open Source convention (http://http://www-5.ibm.com/il/news/events/gnulinux) that is held by the Israeli branch of IBM in coordination of the Tel-Aviv University and the Israeli Data Processing Association (ILA). Stallman (49), known as RMS (http://www.stallman.org), established the GNU (a recursive acronym for GNU is Not Unix) project in 1984, by which he created a UNIX like OS that can be distributed, copy and modify without limitations. The GNU project was the basis for the foundation of the FSF (an acronym for Free Software Foundation) movement which is manifesting in the free and unlimited usage of software. The open source movement, which was established afterwards, is a soften and less radical version of the FSF. [ An illustration of a GNU sitting on a chair a playing a flute next to a conducting penguin, taken from the reservation for the convention ] Stallman is not only a software radical but also a publicists. He writes a lot about international political issues (http://www.stallman.org/#politics) and, in particular, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (for example, he favors the separation fence but object (http://www.stallman.org/articles/fencing.html) to building it in occupied territories; He was in favor of the elimination of the HAMAS leader but thinks that the timing was stinking (http://www.stallman.org/good-fences.html)). In addition, Theodore T'so, who helped the creator of Linux Linus Torvald in the creation of the alternative OS and is now working in the Linux technology department of IBM will also lecture in the convention. So far for the translation attempt. Once again, I believe that eliminating the HAMAS leader is an accurate translation of what is written in the original article. -- Shaul Karl, [EMAIL PROTECTED] e t = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: GPL Nuances [was Re: RMS is back again]
Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: Actually, come to think about it, contrary to what I wrote in the posting that puzzled you, one can argue that a device driver is a piece of software that makes a particular piece of software work, using knowledge of its specific characteristics that are outside of Linux scope. Thus a linux device driver is related to Linux only insofar as it enables the hardware to work with Linux, but the hardware spec it is based on is not Linux-specific, and thus the device driver is not a derivative product of the Linux kernel in this sense, so proprietary drivers are OK. A device driver is basicaly the same for a given device under a given architechure. In each system, the driver gets parameters, takes control of interrupts (if necessary), gets requests and reports status differently. The basic manipulation of the device is the same, e.g. load firmware, set interupts, buffers, etc, start i/o, get the repsonse, etc. While the code may be different (or not) the driver for device X on archiechture Y looks the same no matter what language it is written in. Probably not enough to be restricted by copyright, but enough that anyone who is familiar with writting drivers could spot. Most linux drivers were written the other way arround however. Someone wrote a driver for a device, say a network card, and someone else pulled out the device specific code and stuck in new code for their device. This worked out well in the days when no-one had any idea of how to write a device driver and very few people had a specific device. You could hack together a driver without a lot of prior programing skill and it would work. If there was enough demand, it would get fixed and ocasionaly improved. In the 2.5.x kernels, there is a new method of accessing device drivers. Some drivers have been rewritten, some fixed, some left (now to be broken). Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson Bloomberg L.P., BFM (Israel) 2 hours ahead of London, 7 hours ahead of New York. Tel: 972-(0)3-754-1158 Fax 972-(0)3-754-1236 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: GPL Nuances [was Re: RMS is back again]
Tzafrir Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The linux kernel is licensed under a license that is not exactly the GPL. It is the GPL with an extra clause that allows binary modules (to allow support of certain kinds of hardware, and with certain limitations, but this is really *not* the place to discuss them). I am assuming you mean this: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#LinkingOverControlledInterface AFAIK, the Linux kernel does not include this stipulation, albeit Linus's note at the top of /usr/src/linux/COPYING is arguably similar in spirit. Thus, linking binary modules is a bit shaky (you may trust Linus who seems to be quite liberal, but parts of kernel code are copyrighted by others, who may adhere to stricter interpretations). A cautious solution would involve a GPLed (with the additional clause like in the URL above) interface module, and a proprietary module that will only use the facilities provided by the interface module. In addition, if you make sure that whatever your module does makes sense out of the context of the Linux kernel, you are probably covered (this last condition is difficult to satisfy in the case of hardware drivers and such). -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] A sense of the fundamental decencies is parceled out unequally at birth. What do you mean by `make sure that whatever your module does makes sense out of the context of the Linux kernel'? I guess that once I will get that sentence I will be able to understand why it is difficult to satisfy in the case of hardware drivers. -- Shaul Karl, [EMAIL PROTECTED] e t = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: GPL Nuances [was Re: RMS is back again]
Shaul Karl [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What do you mean by `make sure that whatever your module does makes sense out of the context of the Linux kernel'? I guess that once I will get that sentence I will be able to understand why it is difficult to satisfy in the case of hardware drivers. The whole notion of a derivative product that is central to GPL is about (crudely speaking) is this merely a feature/extension/fix/whatever of this GPLed program or is it a separate piece of software that has a right to exist and does/can do something non-trivial and useful outside of the context of this GPLed program. I would suggest you try to read GPL and what is written about it (search the archives - I posted on the subject before, including some URLs) to try to understand what this central notion of a derivative product is. If it still does not make sense, ask me nicely enough and I *might try* to dig up some notes I made and hopefully _they_ will make some sense. I'll try to illustrate this idea using the following example. AFAIK, (correct me if I am wrong - I just prefer to use something well-known for an example rather than describing the issues that I encountered in my own work, where a need arose to write proprietary kernel modules) CheckPoint's firewall - which is proprietary technology, of course - on Linux works as a kernel module. If you ask a purely legal question about whether or not this is permitted by GPL, one important consideration in determining whether or not this module is a derivative of Linux is whether or not CheckPoint's firewall makes sense outside of the context of Linux. The answer should be yes - the beast can be (and is) used with systems other than Linux, and the particular implementation as a kernel module (thus linked to the GPLed kernel) is just making this product work on Linux. This is not the whole argument, but it's one part of the whole argument why this is legal. Caveat emptor: IANAL, I just tried to understand the issues as well as I could and talked to lawyers at length in the process. Any misunderstandings and misinterpretations are mine, not the lawyers'. Also, please don't ask me to post the full transcripts of my communications with lawyers on the subject: it cost my employer a pretty penny and constitutes valuable intellectual property (in the sense of please do you own homework) - not mine, either. What I wrote above, including the specific example of CP-FW (I never checked myself whether it was indeed implemented as a kernel module, hence the correct me qualifier above - iptables/ipchains are modules, of course), is arguably general knowledge (or my interpretation of it) rather than a part of that intellectual property. Actually, come to think about it, contrary to what I wrote in the posting that puzzled you, one can argue that a device driver is a piece of software that makes a particular piece of software work, using knowledge of its specific characteristics that are outside of Linux scope. Thus a linux device driver is related to Linux only insofar as it enables the hardware to work with Linux, but the hardware spec it is based on is not Linux-specific, and thus the device driver is not a derivative product of the Linux kernel in this sense, so proprietary drivers are OK. I don't know if this or similar line of reasoning is used anywhere to justify proprietary device drivers, or nobody bothers. The cavaliere attitude along the lines of Linus doesn't mind (but are you sure Alan doesn't?) or Rubbini says it's OK [in Linux Device Drivers - OG] so it's OK (I really heard that given as a clinching argument) seems to prevail. It is shaky in the case of device drivers because, obviously, a driver just makes hardware work under Linux, so in this sense it does not have a right to exist outside of Linux. Which talmudic argument wins the day only a lawyer - or a rabbi, or Moshe Bar - both a talmudic scholar and a law student? - http://interviews.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/06/02/1159242mode=threadtid=106 - can determine. I am neither, and maybe the more learned linux-il members (there are certainly quite a few religious ones; are there any lawyers lurking here?) will pity my feeble attempt to argue both sides. Firewall is a much cleaner case, IMHO, because the rules and the algorithms and the corresponding parts of _software_ are arguably broad and independent of Linux. For a device driver, the independent part is hardware, not software (and GPL does not deal with hardware or HW specs). My suggestion to use a controlled interface layer goes in the same direction. Keep the core of what you are doing proprietary if needed. If you need it to work inside (linked to) the kernel, do your best to separate whatever is needed to make it work in this particular context (I am not using this word in the software sense here) in a separate module, GPL the latter, and add the permissive clause from the FAQ to its license, so that your proprietary stuff can be legally
Re: GPL Nuances [was Re: RMS is back again]
Tzafrir Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The linux kernel is licensed under a license that is not exactly the GPL. It is the GPL with an extra clause that allows binary modules (to allow support of certain kinds of hardware, and with certain limitations, but this is really *not* the place to discuss them). I am assuming you mean this: http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#LinkingOverControlledInterface AFAIK, the Linux kernel does not include this stipulation, albeit Linus's note at the top of /usr/src/linux/COPYING is arguably similar in spirit. Thus, linking binary modules is a bit shaky (you may trust Linus who seems to be quite liberal, but parts of kernel code are copyrighted by others, who may adhere to stricter interpretations). A cautious solution would involve a GPLed (with the additional clause like in the URL above) interface module, and a proprietary module that will only use the facilities provided by the interface module. In addition, if you make sure that whatever your module does makes sense out of the context of the Linux kernel, you are probably covered (this last condition is difficult to satisfy in the case of hardware drivers and such). -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] A sense of the fundamental decencies is parceled out unequally at birth. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
GPL Nuances [was Re: RMS is back again]
On Sat, 1 Jun 2002, Diego Iastrubni wrote:
On Saturday 01 June 2002 02:41, Shlomi Fish wrote:
On Fri, 31 May 2002, Diego Iastrubni wrote:
job job, someone has to speak for those who cannt ('cause they are coding
too much) He _is_ right. The day this will happen a big part of freedom
will be ported to win32 platform.
It is legally possible to port GPLed software to Win32. In fact, this has
happened with Cygnus and Friends. This is in a similar spirit to the fact
that GPLed software can be run on proprietary UNIXes.
i was joking. what i meant was that gpl software can be reproduced freely,
while those packages (build open free sources) are not freely available. If
indeed i missread th gpl, kde/gnome duds can not give authorization to that
distros to distribute their packages (something like Linus does not bother
about binary-only kernel modules, even that it violates gpl).
If the packages are distributed under the GPL (in some public way - say
on an FTP site), then they have no way of doing that. If the distributor
(say Caldera) respects the GPL (i.e: supplies the source and lets you
re-distribute the packages themselves) then there's nothing that can
legally been done about GPL software being a part of a proprietary
licensed software. The only think the GPL restricts is linking against
non-GPL compatible code.
Linus Torvalds can allow proprietary modules for the Linux kernel, but
someone can fork the codebase, and then decide not to allow that.
Proprietary modules are allowed due to a general consensos among the
kernel developers.
Regards,
Shlomi Fish
what will be
next: per seat or per server licenses in kcontrol?
talking about free win32 software: here is the url for kde 2.2 for windows
(beta 1):
http://kde-cygwin.sourceforge.net
- diego
--
Disclaimer: These opinions are my own, though for a small fee they be
yours too.
-- Dave Haynie
--
Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
Home E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups...
Wait a second - is n a natural number?
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Re: RMS is back again
On Sat, Jun 01, 2002 at 01:26:03AM +0300, Christoph Bugel wrote: On 2002-05-31, Eliran wrote: Well, here is another response of Richard M. Stallman the FSF founder. Now he condemns the UnitedLinux (Suse, Turbo Linux, Mandrake and others joined forces). What next ? Maybe you should explain *why* you disagree with RMS. I think RMS is right. I should've done this last night, instead of just plonking Eliran the cretin. ..___... ../|../|..|..|.. ..||__||..|..Please.do...|.. ./...O.O\__.NOT..|.. /..\...feed..|.. .../..\.\...the.trolls...|.. ../..._\.\.__|.. ./|\\.\.||.. /.|.|.|.|\/.||.. .../...\|_|_|/...|__||.. ../../..\||.||.. ./...|...|./||..--|. .|...|...|//.|..--|. ..*._|..|_|_|_|..|.\-/.. ...*--._--\._.\.//...|.. ./.._.\\._.//...|/.. ...*../...\_./-.|.-.|...|... .*..___.c_c_c_C/.\C_c_c_c... -- Hevensday 10 Forelithe 7466 http://vipe.technion.ac.il/~mulix/ http://syscalltrack.sf.net/ msg19719/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: RMS is back again
- Original Message - From: Christoph Bugel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Eliran [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 01, 2002 12:26 AM Subject: Re: RMS is back again On 2002-05-31, Eliran wrote: Well, here is another response of Richard M. Stallman the FSF founder. Now he condemns the UnitedLinux (Suse, Turbo Linux, Mandrake and others joined forces). What next ? Maybe you should explain *why* you disagree with RMS. I think RMS is right. I didn't say I disagree with RMS, I just want to see your opinions about it. I'm neutral BTW, Mandrake is not part of UL. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: GPL Nuances [was Re: RMS is back again]
On Sat, 1 Jun 2002, Shlomi Fish wrote:
On Sat, 1 Jun 2002, Diego Iastrubni wrote:
On Saturday 01 June 2002 02:41, Shlomi Fish wrote:
On Fri, 31 May 2002, Diego Iastrubni wrote:
job job, someone has to speak for those who cannt ('cause they are coding
too much) He _is_ right. The day this will happen a big part of freedom
will be ported to win32 platform.
It is legally possible to port GPLed software to Win32. In fact, this has
happened with Cygnus and Friends. This is in a similar spirit to the fact
that GPLed software can be run on proprietary UNIXes.
i was joking. what i meant was that gpl software can be reproduced freely,
while those packages (build open free sources) are not freely available. If
indeed i missread th gpl, kde/gnomeduds can not give authorization to that
distros to distribute their packages (something like Linus does not bother
about binary-only kernel modules, even that it violates gpl).
If the packages are distributed under the GPL (in some public way - say
on an FTP site), then they have no way of doing that. If the distributor
(say Caldera) respects the GPL (i.e: supplies the source and lets you
re-distribute the packages themselves) then there's nothing that can
legally been done about GPL software being a part of a proprietary
licensed software. The only think the GPL restricts is linking against
non-GPL compatible code.
Linus Torvalds can allow proprietary modules for the Linux kernel, but
someone can fork the codebase, and then decide notto allow that.
Proprietary modules are allowed due to a general consensos among the
kernel developers.
There is one difference between the two packages:
KDE and gnome are distributed under the gnu (L?)GPL. Anybody can
redistribute blablabla etc.
The linux kernel is licensed under a license that is not exactly the GPL.
It is the GPL with an extra clause that allows binary modules (to allow
support of certain kinds of hardware, and with certain limitations, but
this is really *not* the place to discuss them).
TurboLinux, Caldera and SuSE (I don't know about Connectiva) redistribute
GPLed software, BUT...
They also bundle this software with their own installers (that probably do
a pretty good job, otherwise people woldn't have bought them). The whole
distribution is not published under the GPL or any similar license.
So legally all they have to make sure is that all of their packages (or at
least, the GPLed and LGPLed ones), including the source, are publicly
available from their FTP site (they actually could get away with less,but
there are practical reason for that)
Don't like this? choose a different distro. Mandrake, Redhat and Debian,
for instance, are distros that are completely free (installer and
packageing under the GPL or something very similar).
--
Tzafrir Cohen
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir
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Re: GPL Nuances [was Re: RMS is back again]
On Sat, 1 Jun 2002, Shlomi Fish [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't like this? choose a different distro. Mandrake, Redhat and Debian, .. Some of the software contained in those distributions is not free (e.g: Netscape 4.72). But the distribution as a whole is. I don't know about Mandrake/Red Hat, but this is simply not true for Debian. The Debian operating system *does not* include any non-DFSG (Debian Free Software Guidelines) Free software. If such software allows redistribution, Debian allows it to be uploaded to non-free as a service to our users. However, this does *not* mean that it somehow becomes a part of the Debian operating system. Only what is in main and main/non-US is a part of the Debian operating system. Here is a quote from the Debian Social Contract, available at http://www.debian.org/social_contract ''' 1. Debian Will Remain 100% Free Software We promise to keep the Debian GNU/Linux Distribution entirely free software. As there are many definitions of free software, we include the guidelines we use to determine if software is free below. We will support our users who develop and run non-free software on Debian, but we will never make the system depend on an item of non-free software. ... 5. Programs That Don't Meet Our Free-Software Standards We acknowledge that some of our users require the use of programs that don't conform to the Debian Free Software Guidelines. We have created contrib and non-free areas in our FTP archive for this software. The software in these directories is not part of the Debian system, although it has been configured for use with Debian. ''' The DFSG is available at the same URL. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS is back again
job job, someone has to speak for those who cannt ('cause they are coding too
much) He _is_ right. The day this will happen a big part of freedom will be
ported to win32 platform.
- diego
On Friday 31 May 2002 22:29, Eliran wrote:
Well, here is another response of Richard M. Stallman the FSF founder.
Now he condemns the UnitedLinux (Suse, Turbo Linux, Mandrake and others
joined forces).
What next ?
Regards,
Eliran
--
The Rabbits The Cow
Here is a verse about rabbits The cow is of the bovine ilk;
That doesn't mention their habits. One end is moo, the other, milk.
-- Ogden Nash
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Re: RMS is back again
On 2002-05-31, Eliran wrote: Well, here is another response of Richard M. Stallman the FSF founder. Now he condemns the UnitedLinux (Suse, Turbo Linux, Mandrake and others joined forces). What next ? Maybe you should explain *why* you disagree with RMS. I think RMS is right. BTW, Mandrake is not part of UL. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RMS is back again
On Fri, 31 May 2002, Diego Iastrubni wrote:
job job, someone has to speak for those who cannt ('cause they are coding too
much) He _is_ right. The day this will happen a big part of freedom will be
ported to win32 platform.
It is legally possible to port GPLed software to Win32. In fact, this has
happened with Cygnus and Friends. This is in a similar spirit to the fact
that GPLed software can be run on proprietary UNIXes.
The way I see it, RMS speaks only for himself. Some people agree with him
or with some things he says; others, like me, usually don't. But there's a
difference between a leader and a spokesperson.
Regards,
Shlomi Fish
- diego
On Friday 31 May 2002 22:29, Eliran wrote:
Well, here is another response of Richard M. Stallman the FSF founder.
Now he condemns the UnitedLinux (Suse, Turbo Linux, Mandrake and others
joined forces).
What next ?
Regards,
Eliran
--
The Rabbits The Cow
Here is a verse about rabbits The cow is of the bovine ilk;
That doesn't mention their habits.One end is moo, the other, milk.
-- Ogden Nash
=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command
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--
Shlomi Fish[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Home Page: http://t2.technion.ac.il/~shlomif/
Home E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Let's suppose you have a table with 2^n cups...
Wait a second - is n a natural number?
=
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Re: RMS is back again
On Saturday 01 June 2002 02:41, Shlomi Fish wrote:
On Fri, 31 May 2002, Diego Iastrubni wrote:
job job, someone has to speak for those who cannt ('cause they are coding
too much) He _is_ right. The day this will happen a big part of freedom
will be ported to win32 platform.
It is legally possible to port GPLed software to Win32. In fact, this has
happened with Cygnus and Friends. This is in a similar spirit to the fact
that GPLed software can be run on proprietary UNIXes.
i was joking. what i meant was that gpl software can be reproduced freely,
while those packages (build open free sources) are not freely available. If
indeed i missread th gpl, kde/gnome duds can not give authorization to that
distros to distribute their packages (something like Linus does not bother
about binary-only kernel modules, even that it violates gpl). what will be
next: per seat or per server licenses in kcontrol?
talking about free win32 software: here is the url for kde 2.2 for windows
(beta 1):
http://kde-cygwin.sourceforge.net
- diego
--
Disclaimer: These opinions are my own, though for a small fee they be
yours too.
-- Dave Haynie
=
To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command
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Re: RMS is back again
On Fri, 31 May 2002, Eliran wrote: Well, here is another response of Richard M. Stallman the FSF founder. Now he condemns the UnitedLinux (Suse, Turbo Linux, Mandrake and others joined forces). Let's get some facts straight first: SuSE, TurboLinux, Caldera and Conectiva (not Mandrake) recently annonced UnitedLinux: http://unitedlinux.com There are still many unclear things about this new distribution. From what I understand this is going to be a core of a distribution, rather than a complete distribution. Each of the four companies will add value to its version and market it seperately. Currently Caldera licenses its OpenLinux distribution in a per-seat license, and there were some hints that this would be the chosen (or preffered?) license for the new distribution. This got RMS very upset, and hence his remarks. RMS here is in his usual role of a watchdog. It is possible that he is barking too soon, though. -- Tzafrir Cohen mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.technion.ac.il/~tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
