Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Am Mittwoch, 8. Oktober 2003 23:53 schrieb Thierry Vignaud: Pierre Jarillon [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: http://bugs.mandrakelinux.com/ Cool. Something to play with in future :) . As said before, I can't really afford to work on/with cooker, this way might be a lot better solution for me to contribute to Mandrake Good conception. It looks faster than bugzilla, but it is empty. Bugzilla is too slow : to display a bug such as http://qa.mandrakesoft.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5066 has a weight of 438084 bytes. This is mainly due to the great number of option in the select markup. With a 56k modem, at least100 seconds are necessary to load this page, and 15s with an ADSL 512k. This is too much. vote for #5809 then :-) and spam warly about it :-) Done. Hope bugzilla becomes usable sometimes in future. - page size - DrakConf vs. drakconf = both get checked with the vote for this bug link= results in 11() votes for this bug , same for bugzilla vs. BugZilla - after back and uncheck one of the entries i get an exception , another step back and click on the button finally saves the vote. This all results in 5 steps or the like for each bug (including that he asks me everytime for login). So i have 5 minutes to work on each bug. (including 2minutes for load the page, hopefully only once otherwise i would need maybe 10-15 minutes per bug) maybe use mod_gzip for the page containig all the packages ? lzs_comp saves me a lot of time if i can use it (once i have 9.2 installed) Steffen
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Pierre Jarillon [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: http://bugs.mandrakelinux.com/ Cool. Something to play with in future :) . As said before, I can't really afford to work on/with cooker, this way might be a lot better solution for me to contribute to Mandrake Good conception. It looks faster than bugzilla, but it is empty. Bugzilla is too slow : to display a bug such as http://qa.mandrakesoft.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5066 has a weight of 438084 bytes. This is mainly due to the great number of option in the select markup. With a 56k modem, at least100 seconds are necessary to load this page, and 15s with an ADSL 512k. This is too much. vote for #5809 then :-) and spam warly about it :-)
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
MEISCH,CORY (HP-Vancouver,ex1) wrote: - What should we do to improve the Wiki. Create test plans or just simple requests for outside testers when a major feature is added or package updated... Test Plans, Brilliant!!! Put 'em on the third CD of the download set and then everyone who is not a programmer can help. This would give much more structured bug reports and get everyone singing from the same hymsheet. If you start with standard apps that most use I'm sure that lots of people would have lots of fun helping out. Just my twopennyworth Regards, Colin Close
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Brad Felmey wrote: On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 10:46, Michael Scherer wrote: On Tuesday 30 September 2003 05:38, Brad Felmey wrote: Also, a place where folks can go get urpmi lines. Not just for stuff like MdkClub and mirrors, but kind of like Debian has a list of misc. repositories available that make it easy to locate Mdk-specific packages for whatever the user is looking for. Almost all unsupported and unaffiliated, but at least a place where a user can go look for homegrown packages of stuff (a la Texstar, etc.). Do you mean something like http://plf.zarb.org/~nanardon/ No, that's only main, contrib, and plf. There are bunches more stuff out there. http://plf.zarb.org/~nanardon/?minor=1 (the equivalent of checking some box on the page) That gives Tex and Samba and Sambaldap and a few more. If your favourites are missing, I am sure the page tells you how you can get them added ... Anyway, there is less need for this than for Debian. More than 50% of the repositories are for backports from unstable or testing to stable, backporting software which was already available in Mandrake 9.1. A lot of the others contain software that are already better maintained in Mandrake or PLF. Instead of focusing on the number of repositories, tell us what software you want to be able to urpmi ... Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/eqxkrJK6UGDSBKcRAnlZAKC9/Hwr65VPsN6H5Vld2EIVvWcGnQCfdDJ0 YFCs57tSiUZ7hax4J+K9Hj0= =O2Su -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Ainsi parlait Vincent Danen : really nasty bugs for fixing... not little things like fonts in gkrellm). Vincent, yet another provocation, and i'll give you gkrellm package back :-) -- The legibility of the signature is inversely proportional to the importance of the artist. -- Caba's Axiom Concerning Signatures and Paintings
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Ainsi parlait Buchan Milne : Vincent Danen wrote: On Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 11:37:22PM +0200, Buchan Milne wrote: This is what @linux-mandrake.com addresses are for. But again, there is no documented policy (and maybe even the resitrictions on what you should use it for) anywhere, so people don't know how to get one. Hasn't it always been to email Lenny and ask? And how reliable is this? What feedback do people get? What do you do if there is no reply? This is not a scalable solution ... And contributers not being subscribed to maintainers mailing-list, whereas half of traffic on this list is pure spam... This is clearly a point needing both a better explanation AND a technical solution. -- If you have your finger touching the rearview mirror that says objects in mirror are closer than they appear, how can that be possible? -- Why Why Why n°13
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Ainsi parlait Buchan Milne : Brad Felmey wrote: On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 10:46, Michael Scherer wrote: On Tuesday 30 September 2003 05:38, Brad Felmey wrote: Also, a place where folks can go get urpmi lines. Not just for stuff like MdkClub and mirrors, but kind of like Debian has a list of misc. repositories available that make it easy to locate Mdk-specific packages for whatever the user is looking for. Almost all unsupported and unaffiliated, but at least a place where a user can go look for homegrown packages of stuff (a la Texstar, etc.). Do you mean something like http://plf.zarb.org/~nanardon/ No, that's only main, contrib, and plf. There are bunches more stuff out there. http://plf.zarb.org/~nanardon/?minor=1 (the equivalent of checking some box on the page) This should really be accessible from urpmi.org instead, and urpmi.org itself should get better organisezed, with more documentation. -- A filter set contains all imaginable wavelengths and widths- except the one combination you need -- Ralf's Laws of Observational Astronomy n°6
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Wed Oct 01, 2003 at 01:31:36PM +0200, Guillaume Rousse wrote:
really nasty bugs for fixing... not little things like fonts in gkrellm).
Vincent, yet another provocation, and i'll give you gkrellm package back :-)
hehehe... oops.
/me runs and hides
=)
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
lynx -source http://linsec.ca/vdanen.asc | gpg --import
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pgp0.pgp
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Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 01:42:40PM +0200, Guillaume Rousse wrote: And contributers not being subscribed to maintainers mailing-list, whereas half of traffic on this list is pure spam... and ppl actually discovering there is a maintainers mailing-list because they stumble upon a msg like this in cooker? how the hell do i get in? :)) L. -- Luca Berra -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Communication Media Services S.r.l. /\ \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN XAGAINST HTML MAIL / \
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Wed Oct 01 23:17 +0200, Luca Berra wrote: On Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 01:42:40PM +0200, Guillaume Rousse wrote: And contributers not being subscribed to maintainers mailing-list, whereas half of traffic on this list is pure spam... and ppl actually discovering there is a maintainers mailing-list because they stumble upon a msg like this in cooker? Send an email with subscribe maintainers to [EMAIL PROTECTED], IIRC. -- Levi Ramsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Take due notice and govern yourself accordingly. Currently playing: Rush - Different Stages Disc 2 - The Rhythm Method Linux 2.4.22-8mdk 17:24:00 up 7 days, 2:06, 11 users, load average: 0.04, 0.08, 0.08
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Wed, 1 Oct 2003, Levi Ramsey wrote: On Wed Oct 01 23:17 +0200, Luca Berra wrote: On Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 01:42:40PM +0200, Guillaume Rousse wrote: And contributers not being subscribed to maintainers mailing-list, whereas half of traffic on this list is pure spam... and ppl actually discovering there is a maintainers mailing-list because they stumble upon a msg like this in cooker? Send an email with subscribe maintainers to [EMAIL PROTECTED], IIRC. (does this work? If so, should it be added to the wiki, or will this just worsen the problem below?) But, before doing that, ensure you have working spam filters :-/ Regards, Buchan -- |Registered Linux User #182071-| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Buchan Milne wrote: But, before doing that, ensure you have working spam filters :-/ It became subscribers only recently. I got rejected few days ago because I don't post with the right address.
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 11:27:15PM +0200, Buchan Milne wrote: and ppl actually discovering there is a maintainers mailing-list because they stumble upon a msg like this in cooker? Send an email with subscribe maintainers to [EMAIL PROTECTED], IIRC. (does this work? If so, should it be added to the wiki, or will this just worsen the problem below?) will tell you in a while But, before doing that, ensure you have working spam filters :-/ there is a wonderful package in contribs called amavisd-new it is still a bit difficult to set it up with postfix, but i hope that when cooker reopens it will be possible to have some provisions for it in postfix rpm, or i will contrib hackpostfix : L. -- Luca Berra -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Communication Media Services S.r.l. /\ \ / ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN XAGAINST HTML MAIL / \
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Wed, 1 Oct 2003, Luca Berra wrote: But, before doing that, ensure you have working spam filters :-/ there is a wonderful package in contribs called amavisd-new it is still a bit difficult to set it up with postfix, but i hope that when cooker reopens it will be possible to have some provisions for it in postfix rpm, or i will contrib hackpostfix : OK, well I don't really see much spam on maintainers (so I may have missed the reduction from being subscriber's only), precisely because we run amavisd-new (and the remaining are caught by Mozilla). BTW, maybe guillomovitch and I have a proposition for you ... Regards, Buchan -- |Registered Linux User #182071-| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Ainsi parlait Buchan Milne : On Wed, 1 Oct 2003, Levi Ramsey wrote: On Wed Oct 01 23:17 +0200, Luca Berra wrote: On Wed, Oct 01, 2003 at 01:42:40PM +0200, Guillaume Rousse wrote: And contributers not being subscribed to maintainers mailing-list, whereas half of traffic on this list is pure spam... and ppl actually discovering there is a maintainers mailing-list because they stumble upon a msg like this in cooker? Send an email with subscribe maintainers to [EMAIL PROTECTED], IIRC. (does this work? If so, should it be added to the wiki, or will this just worsen the problem below?) No, it should be done automatically by people in power to give someone contributer status, as part of welcome package: - klama account - bugzilla account - maintainer and compil subscription - @something.mandrake-linux.com adress We shouldn't have to require something. and BTW, maintainer should be subscribers-only. -- Guillaume Rousse The one item you need is always in short supply -- Murphy's Military Laws n°87
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Eddie wrote: Do not split KDE into so many silly packages. No distro does this and it is ridiculous and too confusing. Some one will say that you can install what you want and leave out other stuff, but if you use urpmi and/or gurpmi it still installs all the packages as before because of dependencies. Please go back to the way it was, it was s easier to keep track of. Eddie Mihalow Jr-Silver Club Member Oh I agree on this one. I don't think splitting KDE was such a good idea and I suspect it will com back to bite mandrake. Keep It simple! -randy
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Buchan Milne wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Michael Scherer wrote: On Monday 29 September 2003 13:38, Eddie wrote: Do not split KDE into so many silly packages. No distro does this and it is ridiculous and too confusing. debian does it, suse too. Some one will say that you can install what you want and leave out other stuff, but if you use urpmi and/or gurpmi it still installs all the packages as before because of dependencies. Please go back to the way it was, it was s easier to keep track of. Eddie Mihalow Jr-Silver Club Member Splitting is good. I do not own a scanner so why should i install sane required to use kooka, beacuse i use the old kdegraphics package ? i only use kmail and konqueror, why should i have 5 more useless kdenetwork application that i will never use. And why do I in a corporate network, with no modem attached, need to install a setuid binary (pppd) just to install kmail (which used to install kppp also, which requires ppp). Perhaps some of the dependencies should be reviewed. Yea I admit that some of the dependencies are kind of goofy. (why do I need cups when installing samba...) -randy
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Buchan Milne wrote: On Sun, 28 Sep 2003, Felix Miata wrote: 5-A usable normal boot and/or rescue floppy should be at least offered for creation during install. After install, creating a boot and/or rescue floppy should actually be possible on any system. Barring that, the creation process that fails should offer some guidance on what to change in order to enable success on future tries. IMHO, there is very little need for this as every installation media allows the rescue boot. Other than if you have multiple versions of mandrake installed on the same system, the rescue seems to pick the wrong one. Though for an install that will really screw your system up. Try RH AS3. That was not good. It decided to play with partition tables and no even give you a shot at boot loader selection. -randy
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Tuesday 30 September 2003 01:09 am, Randy Welch wrote: Eddie wrote: Do not split KDE into so many silly packages. No distro does this and it is ridiculous and too confusing. Some one will say that you can install what you want and leave out other stuff, but if you use urpmi and/or gurpmi it still installs all the packages as before because of dependencies. Please go back to the way it was, it was s easier to keep track of. Eddie Mihalow Jr-Silver Club Member Oh I agree on this one. I don't think splitting KDE was such a good idea and I suspect it will com back to bite mandrake. Keep It simple! -randy And splitting a single application (kopete and others) into 3-4 seperate rpms just doesnt make sense.
Re: [Cooker] And next ? (SaMBa and CUPS)
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 14:11, Randy Welch wrote: (why do I need cups when installing samba...) Because if SaMBa is ever to use some of the special features of CUPS (e.g. print to PDF), it needs to access CUPS through the library. You shouldn't need all of CUPS, just the library. Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Monday 29 September 2003 18:56, Nora Etukudo wrote: On Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 10:56:30AM +0200, Teletchéa Stéphane wrote: Not all of us have high bandwith connection. I test cooker at home, but i can download easily at work : i can download an iso with only rpms modified at work, and use them as 'update' home to test the improvements Oh no, you download iso's at work, unpack them and remaster them with your own rpm's for testing at home? I think you misunderstand completely. He wants a downloadable update ISO(s). Might it possibly easier to rsync at work and then makeing iso's for home testing? Liebe Grüße, Nora. -- John Allen, Email: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] MandrakeClub Silver Member.
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Le Tuesday 30 September 2003 08:27, Texstar a écrit : On Tuesday 30 September 2003 01:09 am, Randy Welch wrote: Eddie wrote: Do not split KDE into so many silly packages. No distro does this Do you know Debian ? and it is ridiculous and too confusing. Some one will say that you can install what you want and leave out other stuff, but if you use urpmi and/or gurpmi it still installs all the packages as before because of dependencies. Please go back to the way it was, it was s easier to keep track of. Eddie Mihalow Jr-Silver Club Member Oh I agree on this one. I don't think splitting KDE was such a good idea and I suspect it will com back to bite mandrake. Keep It simple! -randy And splitting a single application (kopete and others) into 3-4 seperate rpms just doesnt make sense. Why ? Do you know libification ? Regards.
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Am Montag, 29. September 2003 18:40 schrieb Vincent Danen: On Sun Sep 28, 2003 at 02:36:41PM -0700, James Sparenberg wrote: [...] - How to have more contributors? A bugzilla (or similar product) for the release version? Seems strange I know but if you hook people on the concept as users with a smaller bug number (hopefully) in a release version you could well spark the interest needed (as well as hone the skills needed) for working in http://bugs.mandrakelinux.com/ Cool. Something to play with in future :) . As said before, I can't really afford to work on/with cooker, this way might be a lot better solution for me to contribute to Mandrake Thanks Vincent Steffen
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Am Montag, 29. September 2003 01:34 schrieb James Sparenberg: On Sun, 2003-09-28 at 01:19, Warly wrote: It may be a good idea, before cooker opens again, to take these days to have some brainstorm. May you give your opinion on : - What was wrong in 9.2 development process? - We though a bit late in the 9.2 developement process to split cooker ml, we should do it now. - What could we do to improve 9.3/10.0 development. - What should we do to improve the Wiki. - Should we have cooker snapshot ISOs? - What could we do, as a community, to increase the acceptance of mandrakelinux? - How to have more contributors? And anything related to the mandrakelinux distro. In answer to all of the above. How about splitting the development along 2 lines. Mandrake tools and packages. The idea here from my thought is that these really are two separate areas, with separate goals. 100% agree of this The next step would be to make the development of tools a continues project rather than a point/major release function. Create a fourth area called testing on the mirrors. This area differs from updates in that it isn't a bug fix but a known alpha product that is based on a stable release (in this case 9.2) and those power users who chose to can participate in the continuous testing of new ideas and directions. Yep. And this way people could test some things on stable release for cooker. Some of us have hard times to follow cooker, for testing mandrake tools this should really be affordable for a lot more people and have more testers because of that. Finally when the MDK team chooses the final tool set from updates and this area, they become the tool set for the next release and then the crunch time would be able to concentrate on packages. Overall it would yield a much more stable release process IMHO. That idea is the best idea i have read during the whole thread. This would also help i18n people in translating, as translating could be done and tested during the whole time. I absolutly vote for this split up of development. Steffen
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Sun 28 Sep 2003 at 08:19, Warly wrote:
| It may be a good idea, before cooker opens again, to take these
| days to have some brainstorm.
|
| May you give your opinion on :
|
| - What was wrong in 9.2 development process?
1. N America mirrors... out-of-date, inaccessible with too many
already logged in (priority to on-campus users). No local,
reliable sources of snapshot CDs (I'm stuck with dial-up
Internet access so I need a new snapshot on CD when there
are major changes, then I can keep up for a while with
overnight sync'ing until there's another major--as in size--
change).
2. Too little time. Start earlier. I keep older and unusual
boxes for testing: PI system, GigaPro MB with 1Gigapro CPU,
slot-A Athlon on Amptron MB. Home network built from usable
parts of 'throw-away' PCs, 'final closeout' bargains and
lease return bargains. With enough time, I can try CD and
network installs on each and perhaps find and/or fix bugs.
| - We though a bit late in the 9.2 developement process to split
| cooker ml, we should do it now.
IMHO, do _NOT_ spilt the mailing list. Strongly encourage subject
tags for sorting with email client filters. [cooker] to a
directory, [Bug ] to bugs sub-directory, etc. Put out a
guideline message once a month or when there's a change. Find
a volunteer to create and maintain a hierarchical list of
recommended subject line tags to sort on.
I like being able to scan all the traffic. Most gets deleted
after a quick look. I won't own an IA64 or Ath64 anytime soon
but I want to know what's going on with the whole distro and
the company. I also like being able to use filters to sort the
mail that interests me most into a directory that I will look
at first.
For each release cycle, strongly encourage tags after [cooker]
to clearly indicate to which snapshot the message applies:
[beta1] - [rc3]. Follow with the common name of the tool or
package: [install] or [kde] or {apache2] or [whatever]. Use
filters to sort things out as you prefer.
| - What could we do to improve 9.3/10.0 development.
1. START EARLIER.
2. Set clear goals for 9.3/10. Not just dates but priorities and
objectives. For example: A. Install and initial boot flawlessly
on the following: 1) off-the-shelf PCs {list}; 2) laptops
{list}; 97% of other i586 off-the-shelf PCs; and over 90% of
home-built and custom-built i586 PCs. B. Support the following
SATA-enabled main boards {list} and drives {list} and 90+% of
other available serial HDs. C. Include the latest stable version
of {list including OO, KDE, Gnome, Apache, etc.}
3. I largely agree with James Sparenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED],
especially a focus on tools and a separate 'test' area on the
mirrors. Emphasize the installer. Nothing frustrates a new (or
even an experienced) user more than the installation repeatedly
freezing or getting nothing but 'kernel panic' when trying that
first boot. Too many give up in frustration and either go back
to Microsoft Windows or try a different distro' (and then come
back to message boards and post about Mandrake problems and how
SuSe or RedHat or whatever worked fine).
4. Involve MandrakeClub members again and more. Months before the
release cycle gets moving, create a place to vote for 9.3/10
features and packages in the Mandrake voting site. Start with a
table showing all of the core packages. Tell them that KOffice,
OO, Apache, etc. are part of the core and that the latest stable
version of each of them will be in the release. Don't propose
them and if someone else does, don't waste your vote for them.
Clean up the distro, moving some traditional packages to contrib
even though some will yell and scream and cry about the editor
they used back in '92 being removed. Post a table for members to
vote for which of the 'very nice' packages they prefer. The
proftpd versus pureftpd thread is an example.
Then allow the chaotic free-for-all of requests for packages and
features. Let MandrakeClub members know that they can request a
'feature' as long as they can describe what they want.
| - What should we do to improve the Wiki.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. It may break as it fills but
it's OK for now. When cracks start to show, fix it or rebuild
it or reorganize it or replace it or whatever it takes to make
it work well again.
| - Should we have cooker snapshot ISOs?
Maybe short (two day?) freezes between cycles asking folks to try
a fresh install, some building bootable CDs and others doing a
network install, to check a change in installer or tools or a new
default kernel or ???
| - What could we do, as a community, to increase the acceptance
| of mandrakelinux?
1. First and most important, keep producing a Linux distro that's
easy to install, configure, and update while retaining the
stability and security of Linux. Continue making administering
networks easy, increasing productivity of those who use it. Give
CDs away to everybody who shows an interest.
This msg is alrady too long but... climbing onto soap
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Mon, 2003-09-29 at 12:00, Doc Tree wrote:
| - What could we do to improve 9.3/10.0 development.
1. START EARLIER.
Huh? Earlier than what? Do you want us to go back in time to June and
start there? :)
other available serial HDs. C. Include the latest stable version
of {list including OO, KDE, Gnome, Apache, etc.}
MDK always uses the last stable version of these major packages released
before it goes into feature freeze for the new version.
Clean up the distro, moving some traditional packages to contrib
even though some will yell and scream and cry about the editor
they used back in '92 being removed. Post a table for members to
vote for which of the 'very nice' packages they prefer. The
proftpd versus pureftpd thread is an example.
I rather like this idea, actually. Streamline main but don't dump the
apps totally. Would work if contrib was more widely known about.
--
adamw
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Vincent Danen wrote: On Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 11:37:22PM +0200, Buchan Milne wrote: This is what @linux-mandrake.com addresses are for. But again, there is no documented policy (and maybe even the resitrictions on what you should use it for) anywhere, so people don't know how to get one. Hasn't it always been to email Lenny and ask? And how reliable is this? What feedback do people get? What do you do if there is no reply? This is not a scalable solution ... Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/eW10rJK6UGDSBKcRAv+TAJ0YUv23appDpLaBoiQRiqHxMfivCACfUA+0 WF6DoUzulq8Xw6KjvbgFIjk= =wXxe -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Le Mardi 30 Septembre 2003 10:41, Steffen Barszus a écrit : http://bugs.mandrakelinux.com/ Cool. Something to play with in future :) . As said before, I can't really afford to work on/with cooker, this way might be a lot better solution for me to contribute to Mandrake Good conception. It looks faster than bugzilla, but it is empty. Bugzilla is too slow : to display a bug such as http://qa.mandrakesoft.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5066 has a weight of 438084 bytes. This is mainly due to the great number of option in the select markup. With a 56k modem, at least100 seconds are necessary to load this page, and 15s with an ADSL 512k. This is too much. But http://bugs.mandrakelinux.com/ is not a valid HTML :-( Why? -- Pierre Jarillon - http://pjarillon.free.fr/ Vice-président de l'ABUL : http://abul.org/
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Le Mardi 30 Septembre 2003 11:03, Steffen Barszus a écrit : The next step would be to make the development of tools a continues project rather than a point/major release function. Create a fourth area called testing on the mirrors. This area differs from updates in that it isn't a bug fix but a known alpha product that is based on a stable release (in this case 9.2) and those power users who chose to can participate in the continuous testing of new ideas and directions. Yep. And this way people could test some things on stable release for cooker. Some of us have hard times to follow cooker, for testing mandrake tools this should really be affordable for a lot more people and have more testers because of that. Sure, this is a great idea. I take some time to do some bug tracking during beta and rc releases, but between these I would like to participate and to focus on a developpement. -- Pierre Jarillon - http://pjarillon.free.fr/ Vice-président de l'ABUL : http://abul.org/
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Laurent Montel wrote: Le Tuesday 30 September 2003 08:27, Texstar a écrit : On Tuesday 30 September 2003 01:09 am, Randy Welch wrote: Eddie wrote: Do not split KDE into so many silly packages. No distro does this Do you know Debian ? and it is ridiculous and too confusing. Some one will say that you can install what you want and leave out other stuff, but if you use urpmi and/or gurpmi it still installs all the packages as before because of dependencies. Please go back to the way it was, it was s easier to keep track of. Eddie Mihalow Jr-Silver Club Member Oh I agree on this one. I don't think splitting KDE was such a good idea and I suspect it will com back to bite mandrake. Keep It simple! -randy And splitting a single application (kopete and others) into 3-4 seperate rpms just doesnt make sense. Why ? Do you know libification ? Regards. Yes, I think Texstar has a handle on KDE!
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 eddie wrote: Laurent Montel wrote: Why ? Do you know libification ? Yes, I think Texstar has a handle on KDE! I guess Texstar also adds features and does bug fixes in KDE CVS? Anyway, just run rpmlint on Tex's packages, and then on the ones in cooker, and compare the score (by the number of lines). You will see very soon why this was done. The rules rpmlint uses have good reasoning, so if you get too many errors, you need to consider making those changes. Laurent has now, and that is a big improvement, and the rpmlint score will reflect that. Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/eYOXrJK6UGDSBKcRApnUAKDGl+DmUHu0MTejBp+db0mKpTMMygCcD7gG +cp13biNFT9GCAPPxpNGnfU= =zoPg -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Oh I agree on this one. I don't think splitting KDE was such a good idea and I suspect it will com back to bite mandrake. Keep It simple! -randy And splitting a single application (kopete and others) into 3-4 seperate rpms just doesnt make sense. Why ? Why split it if no other application is going to use that applications library? Do you know libification ? Yes and but sometimes a good idea can be taken too far. Regards. Cheers.
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Tuesday 30 September 2003 08:11 am, eddie wrote: And splitting a single application (kopete and others) into 3-4 seperate rpms just doesnt make sense. Why ? Do you know libification ? Regards. Yes, I think Texstar has a handle on KDE! Sometimes things make sense and sometimes they dont and sometimes you just need a clarification as to why things are done a certain way.
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Tuesday 30 September 2003 05:38, Brad Felmey wrote: On Sun, 2003-09-28 at 03:19, Warly wrote: - What was wrong in 9.2 development process? The same thing wrong with them all - too little QA/freeze, although this is somewhat better now. Also ludicrous changelogs like fixed something or rebuild. Laurent is the worst about this. Fixed *WHAT*? Rebuild WHY? - We though a bit late in the 9.2 developement process to split cooker ml, we should do it now. Debian is split to death, and it's a mess. I'd send the bugs to a different list, with followups set to cooker, and leave the rest. Well, all others projects are split, not only debian ( think freebsd, gentoo, etc ). So, i do not fill this is bad. The time lost due to a post on the wrong list will still be inferior to the time gained by having people focused on the subject they want. And anything related to the mandrakelinux distro. For God's sake, a urpmi proxy, like apt-proxy. Corporations are not going to want each box pulling packages separately, and they don't want to mirror, either. They just want to pull the stuff they need - once. wel, they can either setup a mirror, or use squid with correct configuration. I do not know squid too much, but, it should be possible to cache everything that come from a certain host, whatever the size is ? Having a doc explaineing this method on the user wiki will be sufficent, i think. Also, a place where folks can go get urpmi lines. Not just for stuff like MdkClub and mirrors, but kind of like Debian has a list of misc. repositories available that make it easy to locate Mdk-specific packages for whatever the user is looking for. Almost all unsupported and unaffiliated, but at least a place where a user can go look for homegrown packages of stuff (a la Texstar, etc.). Do you mean something like http://plf.zarb.org/~nanardon/ -- Michaël Scherer
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Monday 29 September 2003 23:14, Vincent Danen wrote: c On Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 10:50:48PM +0200, Michael Scherer wrote: - How to have more contributors? while browsing the web, i have seen that gentoo and netbsd announce their new developpers. this may be a good idea,in order to show that new contributers comes. And, even if this sound a little childish, having a @contributer.mandrake.org mail address for contributer could do some subliminal advertisement, showing that people can contribute without having to be employed by mdk. This is what @linux-mandrake.com addresses are for. Yes, but someone said that they were no longer given, and this address sound too much like the one of the employees. That's why i have proposed something that clearly show that outside people can contribute. -- Michaël Scherer
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Le Mardi 30 Septembre 2003 17:31, Texstar a écrit : Oh I agree on this one. I don't think splitting KDE was such a good idea and I suspect it will com back to bite mandrake. Keep It simple! -randy And splitting a single application (kopete and others) into 3-4 seperate rpms just doesnt make sense. Why ? Why split it if no other application is going to use that applications library? This is need to make simple upgrade on some other arch. This make help to not have stupid dependencies between package. This does not break nothing. If one days another need the library, works will be done ! Do you know libification ? Yes and but sometimes a good idea can be taken too far. Why ? Because you can't understand why we do this ? Are you sure you're the good poeple to explain how to package: [EMAIL PROTECTED] texstar]$ ls 9.2/rpms/ hpijs-1.4.1-1tex.i586.rpm kdemoreartwork-plastik-0.3.7-2tex.i586.rpm How can you make 9.2 rpms ? You can't know which rpms are within, nobody have access to the distro at time, except mandrake's poeple. -- Linux pour Mac !? Enfin le moyen de transformer une pomme en véritable ordinateur. - JL. Olivier Thauvin - http://nanardon.homelinux.org/
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Tue Sep 30, 2003 at 01:48:44PM +0200, Pierre Jarillon wrote:
http://bugs.mandrakelinux.com/
Cool. Something to play with in future :) . As said before, I can't
really afford to work on/with cooker, this way might be a lot better
solution for me to contribute to Mandrake
Good conception. It looks faster than bugzilla, but it is empty.
Bugzilla is too slow : to display a bug such as
http://qa.mandrakesoft.com/show_bug.cgi?id=5066
has a weight of 438084 bytes. This is mainly due to the great number of
option in the select markup.
With a 56k modem, at least100 seconds are necessary to load this page,
and 15s with an ADSL 512k. This is too much.
But http://bugs.mandrakelinux.com/ is not a valid HTML :-( Why?
I'm not sure what you mean. What's not valid HMTL?
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
lynx -source http://linsec.ca/vdanen.asc | gpg --import
{FE6F2AFD : 88D8 0D23 8D4B 3407 5BD7 66F9 2043 D0E5 FE6F 2AFD}
pgp0.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Tuesday 30 September 2003 08:22 am, Buchan Milne wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 eddie wrote: Laurent Montel wrote: Why ? Do you know libification ? Yes, I think Texstar has a handle on KDE! I guess Texstar also adds features and does bug fixes in KDE CVS? What does this have to do with the way code is packaged? Anyway, just run rpmlint on Tex's packages, and then on the ones in cooker, and compare the score (by the number of lines). You will see very soon why this was done. The rules rpmlint uses have good reasoning, so if you get too many errors, you need to consider making those changes. Laurent has now, and that is a big improvement, and the rpmlint score will reflect that. Regards, Buchan rpmlint is just a reference tool
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Texstar wrote: On Tuesday 30 September 2003 08:22 am, Buchan Milne wrote: eddie wrote: Laurent Montel wrote: Why ? Do you know libification ? Yes, I think Texstar has a handle on KDE! I guess Texstar also adds features and does bug fixes in KDE CVS? What does this have to do with the way code is packaged? Nothing, but neither does the previous statement (which is what I was actually hinting at ...). Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/ea2urJK6UGDSBKcRAuMbAJkBG2yVV5av6kxpyvPKWJzuW/et/QCgrgzC xwkGBVoqp+osV/YCjh4hFfU= =VcsR -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Tuesday 30 September 2003 11:01 am, you wrote: Le Mardi 30 Septembre 2003 17:31, Texstar a écrit : Oh I agree on this one. I don't think splitting KDE was such a good idea and I suspect it will com back to bite mandrake. Keep It simple! -randy And splitting a single application (kopete and others) into 3-4 seperate rpms just doesnt make sense. Why ? Why split it if no other application is going to use that applications library? This is need to make simple upgrade on some other arch. This make help to not have stupid dependencies between package. This does not break nothing. If one days another need the library, works will be done ! Do you know libification ? Yes and but sometimes a good idea can be taken too far. Why ? Because you can't understand why we do this ? Are you sure you're the good poeple to explain how to package: Lets take a simple application and split it into 3 rpms. One for the application, one for the library and one for the development libraries because thats the Mandrake way of doing things. Makes perfect sense to me. Im not telling anyone how to package anything. I was asking a question as to why simple applications are being split into multiple rpms. I wanted to know why. If it makes it easier on the packagers when rebuilding for a different arch then its a good thing. If it was being done simply because it was the Mandrake way of doing things then it doesnt make sense. [EMAIL PROTECTED] texstar]$ ls 9.2/rpms/ hpijs-1.4.1-1tex.i586.rpm kdemoreartwork-plastik-0.3.7-2tex.i586.rpm kdemoreartwork-plastik-0.3.7-2tex.i586.rpm How can you make 9.2 rpms ? You can't know which rpms are within, nobody have access to the distro at time, except mandrake's poeple. I know Laurent isnt going to make any major revisions to the kde contained in RC-2 updated cooker so whatever is duplicated if any will be removed from the ibiblio directory and a hdlist will be generated following some kind of announcement on pclo once 9.2 is released.
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Yes, I think Texstar has a handle on KDE! I guess Texstar also adds features and does bug fixes in KDE CVS? What does this have to do with the way code is packaged? Nothing, but neither does the previous statement (which is what I was actually hinting at ...). Regards, Buchan Good point! :-D
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Sunday 28 September 2003 04:19 am, Warly wrote: It may be a good idea, before cooker opens again, to take these days to have some brainstorm. May you give your opinion on : - What was wrong in 9.2 development process? [worksforme] I hate it when people close bugs w/ works for me instead of actually trying to fix the prob. I think it's a major copout. - We though a bit late in the 9.2 developement process to split cooker ml, we should do it now. If by splitting cooker ML you mean putting bug reports in a separate mailing list, by all means have it it. That's a great idea. A bugzilla list and a coooker list sounds like a prime idea. - What could we do to improve 9.3/10.0 development. Whenever you need bugtesters to start testing for next distro why not put a link on the main page (mandrake.com). Also you should assign (or suggest) specific things for testing like - KDE packages - Gnome Packages - Apache Packages - Xfree/fontconfig/xfs packages --- etc packages - Installation routine - Upgrade routine - Post installation upgrades - drak tools. and then just have people volunteer to test those. it would make things more streamlined i think and make the work of finding bugs go quicker. - What should we do to improve the Wiki. wtf is the wiki. i've only seen reference to it on cooker. - Should we have cooker snapshot ISOs? eh. - What could we do, as a community, to increase the acceptance of mandrakelinux? How about fixing them fonts on the main page to make it look better. seriously. I don't even like going to that page anymore because of how horrible it looks, and guess what? There are more just like me! We hate that page, change it. Better fonts. - How to have more contributors? Well you could tell the contirbuters where they can contribute for starters. I've heard of the wiki but just wtf is it? beats me. And exactly what do you mean by contributors, MDK clubbers? bug hunters? packagers, guys to proofread documentation (i could do this, hell I could write some too given enough time) Again layout exactly what you need somewhere on a page or subpage. if all this in already in the wiki. wtf is it :) And anything related to the mandrakelinux distro. How 'bout adding sites like mandrake user sites on another page (mandrake community or something) Not like a webring or anything (those are gay). You can just link to them (after checking if they pass muster w/ you guys).
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Tuesday 30 September 2003 19:08, jokerman64 wrote: On Sunday 28 September 2003 04:19 am, Warly wrote: It may be a good idea, before cooker opens again, to take these days to have some brainstorm. May you give your opinion on : - What was wrong in 9.2 development process? [worksforme] I hate it when people close bugs w/ works for me instead of actually trying to fix the prob. I think it's a major copout. ok, so what should they do ? Trying to fix a bug thay cannot see or reproduce ? - What should we do to improve the Wiki. wtf is the wiki. i've only seen reference to it on cooker. http://qa.mandrakesoft.com/wiki/ if you do not know what a wiki is, please see http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki ( wikipedia is a wiki, of course :) ) And anything related to the mandrakelinux distro. How 'bout adding sites like mandrake user sites on another page (mandrake community or something) Not like a webring or anything (those are gay). I suppose that, like all the others the last time, you have nothing against gay people and you didn't want to offense them, as usual when this kind of problem occurs ? -- Michaël Scherer
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Tuesday 30 September 2003 02:09 pm, Michael Scherer wrote: On Tuesday 30 September 2003 19:08, jokerman64 wrote: On Sunday 28 September 2003 04:19 am, Warly wrote: It may be a good idea, before cooker opens again, to take these days to have some brainstorm. May you give your opinion on : - What was wrong in 9.2 development process? [worksforme] I hate it when people close bugs w/ works for me instead of actually trying to fix the prob. I think it's a major copout. ok, so what should they do ? Trying to fix a bug thay cannot see or reproduce ? - What should we do to improve the Wiki. wtf is the wiki. i've only seen reference to it on cooker. http://qa.mandrakesoft.com/wiki/ if you do not know what a wiki is, please see http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiki ( wikipedia is a wiki, of course :) ) And anything related to the mandrakelinux distro. How 'bout adding sites like mandrake user sites on another page (mandrake community or something) Not like a webring or anything (those are gay). I suppose that, like all the others the last time, you have nothing against gay people and you didn't want to offense them, as usual when this kind of problem occurs ? do i agree w/ homosexuality? not really a topic for cooker. Did i want to insult any gay people w/ this comment? certainly not. It's just a (very) common expression where i come from. I can see the un-pc ness of it so i'll try to refrain from such comments in the future
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 10:38:15PM -0500, Brad Felmey wrote: For God's sake, a urpmi proxy, like apt-proxy. Corporations are not going to want each box pulling packages separately, and they don't want to mirror, either. They just want to pull the stuff they need - once. I don't know if God runs Mandrake Linux ;-) But this would be a Really Good Thing (tm)! I have 3 pc's at home running mandrake and about 17 at work. A mirror takes a bit more effort to setup and maintain than a proxy would and I'm not even mentioning diskspace and bandwidth! Brad, you're a genius! (or you copied one ;-) Simon
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Tue, 2003-09-30 at 10:46, Michael Scherer wrote: On Tuesday 30 September 2003 05:38, Brad Felmey wrote: Also, a place where folks can go get urpmi lines. Not just for stuff like MdkClub and mirrors, but kind of like Debian has a list of misc. repositories available that make it easy to locate Mdk-specific packages for whatever the user is looking for. Almost all unsupported and unaffiliated, but at least a place where a user can go look for homegrown packages of stuff (a la Texstar, etc.). Do you mean something like http://plf.zarb.org/~nanardon/ No, that's only main, contrib, and plf. There are bunches more stuff out there. -- Brad Felmey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Uncompensated Mandrake Beta Testers, Inc.
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Sun Sep 28 2003 at 18:30, Simon Oosthoek wrote: | On Sun, Sep 28, 2003 at 10:19:44AM +0200, Warly wrote: | - What was wrong in 9.2 development process? | | I think the targets for a release should be set much earlier in the | process. Especially targets for nr of major bugs in the software to | be released. I should have read Simon's post before writing mine. He more clearly stated what I meant by 'START EARLIER.' Much earlier. Perhaps now? What are the goals for 9.3/10? What can I do next weekend to help accomplish one of the goals? | Focus more on a small set of features that should work perfectly | and others that are nice to have but not critical. This should be | clearly linked with how people use mandrake-linux. Installer. Nothing drives a new convert away faster than not being able to complete an installation. Second, DrakeConnect so that a new user can get help on-line with any remaining problem. | - Should we have cooker snapshot ISOs? | | would be nice, but maybe another approach would be better: | every week, freeze cooker so the mirrors can catch up. Make sure | a network upgrade can be done without glitches and have a few days | of testing of the current status. Fixes can then be added for the | next freeze. And on Sun Sep 28 2003 18:14, Emmanuel Moll wrote, in part: | | Don't mind since I have broadband (thank you Uni) but it is | true that having a time reference to the bugs would be good | (e.g. this bug is valid in cooker-20030707 etc...) Weekly may be too frequent. Perhaps days 14-15 and last two days of each month? Or irregularly scheduled but announced well in advance after a significant change? I can build my own bootable CDs and/or do network installs or upgrades from my home ftp mirror when I can keep it up- to-date, which isn't always easy with only dial-up Internet access. I vote for a few short freezes before beta 1 rather than ISOs (but be sure to tell everyone what packages most need testing). (from Emmanuel Moll's reply) | - What could we do to improve 9.3/10.0 development. | | A more specific timeline available on Wiki. I.e. a lot of testers | found that they did not know when cooker entered a frozen state | etc... Why not have some rounds e.g. | -Suggestion round | -Features round | -Packages round (in accordance with the Club, of course) | etc... so that user know when their opinion will be heard. At the | moment, the whole oh i think this package should be added or | this feature would be cool at a RC1 stage is very messy. | Providing the users with a time frame (2-3 months) in which they | can submit their ideas for features would be good. I agree. Announce the time-frames for each round as early as feasible. Looking forward to an every-improving and growing Mandrake. Tree
Re: [Cooker] And next ? Release cycle.
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 08:44, Greg Meyer wrote: On Sunday 28 September 2003 04:19, Warly wrote: - What could we do to improve 9.3/10.0 development. Use the commonly held definitions of beta and rc for labeling releases. Too often, rc's are still full of major bugs, including with the installer, that most reasonable people think should be gone by the time you start using the term rc. Hokay... how about a definition of terms? Mandrake should have an Alpha release two weeks prior to their first planned Beta. To put it another way, we should begin the wind-up process two weeks earlier with an Alpha pulled straight out of cooker. Alpha-1 should be a signal that no new packages will be added without a damn fine reason, and if you want existing packages updated, you'd better hurry and get them and their dependencies sorted now. Anyone installing Alpha-1 on a production machine needs their head read. Alpha-1 should include the installer as she are shipped except for fixes (ie, no major design changes to the installer between Alpha-1 and Final, just bug-fixes and refinements). If Alpha-1 is abysmal, there should be an Alpha-2 crowded in there somewhere. BitTorrent is your friend, if you don't want to upset the mirrors. Beta-1 should signify no new packages at all, no new versions except for showstoppers and security fixes. Beta-1 should inspire the braver/more foolhardy souls to install it on production systems. If we do this, the first RC may well be a genuine RC and should certainly be fit enough to routinely run a production system on. This should make Final shine, be a beacon of robustness for other distributors to envy. (-: Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Le dim 28/09/2003 à 13:48, Nora Etukudo a écrit : On Sun, Sep 28, 2003 at 10:19:44AM +0200, Warly wrote: - Should we have cooker snapshot ISOs? No. I don't need ISO's at all during development. 'rsync'ing to a local server and installing via net from there is cheap, fast and reliable. I would like to see more focus on Mandrake AutoInstall. Liebe Grüße, Nora. YES ! A snapshot cooker during beta/rc process would be a great idea : keep a long beta/rc process to be sure that when you report a bug it has been taken into account and check its validity. Not all of us have high bandwith connection. I test cooker at home, but i can download easily at work : i can download an iso with only rpms modified at work, and use them as 'update' home to test the improvements ... Definitivelly YES. Stef -- signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
, 28 2003, 21:49,Austin: On 09/28/2003 06:26:43 PM, Diego Iastrubni wrote: , 28 2003, 21:44,Michael Scherer: * use also apt-get (with the same repositories, IMHO this can be done no?), let the user which app use to install rpms. IMHO it just wastes mirror space ... how many use apt? it doesn't matter, apt is patched to use hdlist in mdk :) does it mean i CAN use apt in mdk? will it be able to recompile packages? howto? manuals? This is madness. Why the hell would anyone want to use apt instead of urpmi with Mandrake. not instead. but ALSO. -- diego, 3 Tishrey 5764 Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
Re: [Cooker] And next ? - cooperation with major disk vendor?
Le dim 28/09/2003 à 19:44, Keld Jørn Simonsen a écrit : One thing I saw which could enhance the availablilty of Mandrake was to make an alliance with a major disk vendor, eg. Maxtor, to preinstalle mandrake on a number of disks - free of charge. I think this is what Lindows have done with Seagate for their 40 GB disks, and I see quite some potential for that kind of arrangement. This is stupid ... You don't know where the disk will be installed, and so if you don't support well the hardware you will just panic ... Bad reputation for linux. This kind of alliance should be made with computers suppliers ( HP, Dell, IBM, Acer, Shuttle ) or with supermaket. The support is well defined and tested and so you don't have problem and you can have support.
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Le dim 28/09/2003 à 17:47, lamikr_mdk a écrit : Warly wrote: CD Burner - Why everybody owning CD burner must go manually to edit kernel booting parameters to add lines like hdc=ide-scsi hdd=ide-scsi. Either add this as a default for every cd device or help to make cd burning softwares to work without these definitions well. not sure. Personally I'm not confident in ide-scsi emulation. But in 2.6 this is solve as you no longer need scsi emulation in order to use your CD burner and THIS is the better solution.
OT impressed by SuSE? (was Re: [Cooker] And next ?)
Warly wrote: - We though a bit late in the 9.2 developement process to split cooker ml, we should do it now. - What could we do, as a community, to increase the acceptance of mandrakelinux? Boxes on the store shelves, and included at least as an option with far more new PC's. Did you notice what Lindows just did? Lindows is now installed on all new Seagate HD's, almost like all those 500, 700 1000 free hour AOL CD's we in the US don't seem to be able to avoid. which reminds me of recent experiance with SuSE. ( i don't like them but i had to use it from time to time) so, what was i impressed from ( and i think could be really good addition for newbies) hardware detection: i swaped the hard drive(with installed SuSE 8.2) from one PC to another PC, i then adjusted fstab (from rescue CD) , and rebooted on the second PC. on boot in console mode i had to adjust only the XFree configuration, all the other hardware was found and configured, after i logged in X. I think this feature is quite nice for newbies, compared to the way it's done in Mandrake -- all hardware is configured under console at boot. i might be wrong, but in console mode some of the features of drakxtools are missing, so if the hardware detection is delayed until log on, this could be also a plus. svetljo PS. how is this related to the above message :-) : well if it's really possible to ship mandrake on hard drives, this could make things easier for newbies. -- NEU FÜR ALLE - GMX MediaCenter - für Fotos, Musik, Dateien... Fotoalbum, File Sharing, MMS, Multimedia-Gruß, GMX FotoService Jetzt kostenlos anmelden unter http://www.gmx.net +++ GMX - die erste Adresse für Mail, Message, More! +++
Re: [Cooker] And next ? - cooperation with major disk vendor?
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 19:35, FACORAT Fabrice wrote: You don't know where the disk will be installed, and so if you don't support well the hardware you will just panic ... Bad reputation for linux. This kind of alliance should be made with computers suppliers ( HP, Dell, IBM, Acer, Shuttle ) or with supermaket. The support is well defined and tested and so you don't have problem and you can have support. Agree. Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 21:42:05 +0300 Diego Iastrubni [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * patch wine to be able to use mono's winforms Suply the patch and I am sure someone can take a look. the patch is found here: http://openlinksw.com/mono/index.html read also: http://go-mono.com/winforms.html http://www.nullenvoid.com/mono/wiki/index.php/MonoWinePackages What I read on the mailinglist was that it's really not mature and usefull, so I decided to wait a while, and didn't bother with it yet. Also, the wine patch is for an older wine version then the one in Mandrake (last time I looked), I have no clue if it even applies. * mono in mdk out of the box! (if sharp develop will run on mono bring it on baby!) Supply packages/patches, and I am sure someone will take a look. sorry, for this we just need to sit on our ass and wait :( It's in contribs. -- Marcel Pol
Re: [Cooker] And next ? - cooperation with major disk vendor?
Le dim 28/09/2003 à 19:44, Keld Jørn Simonsen a écrit : One thing I saw which could enhance the availablilty of Mandrake was to make an alliance with a major disk vendor, eg. Maxtor, to preinstalle mandrake on a number of disks - free of charge. I think this is what Lindows have done with Seagate for their 40 GB disks, and I see quite some potential for that kind of arrangement. This is stupid ... You don't know where the disk will be installed, and so if you don't support well the hardware you will just panic ... Bad reputation for linux. hm, where will you panic with a i586 kernel in todays world? i really don't think it'll be a problem. but a really good user freindly hardware detection will be needed (see the OT: impressed by SuSE) This kind of alliance should be made with computers suppliers ( HP, Dell, IBM, Acer, Shuttle ) or with supermaket. The support is well defined and tested and so you don't have problem and you can have support. i would say, mandrake should go both for disk PC manufactures, not only for the second. svetljo -- NEU FÜR ALLE - GMX MediaCenter - für Fotos, Musik, Dateien... Fotoalbum, File Sharing, MMS, Multimedia-Gruß, GMX FotoService Jetzt kostenlos anmelden unter http://www.gmx.net +++ GMX - die erste Adresse für Mail, Message, More! +++
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Do not split KDE into so many silly packages. No distro does this and it is ridiculous and too confusing. Some one will say that you can install what you want and leave out other stuff, but if you use urpmi and/or gurpmi it still installs all the packages as before because of dependencies. Please go back to the way it was, it was s easier to keep track of. Eddie Mihalow Jr-Silver Club Member
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Sun, 2003-09-28 at 23:46, Robert L martin wrote: 2 not if you have sub megabit access ON THE MACHINE YOU ARE UPGRADING A network install of a typical setup actually involves less downloading than getting three ISOs. My typical installation size is around 1GB, so running an installation over the network from a Cooker mirror is more bandwidth efficient than ISOs. -- adamw
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Monday 29 September 2003 00:26, Diego Iastrubni wrote: , 28 2003, 21:44,Michael Scherer: * use also apt-get (with the same repositories, IMHO this can be done no?), let the user which app use to install rpms. IMHO it just wastes mirror space ... how many use apt? it doesn't matter, apt is patched to use hdlist in mdk :) does it mean i CAN use apt in mdk? yes. will it be able to recompile packages? no. this is apt-build who is in charge of this, and it is not packaged. howto? manuals? just look at the configure file, it should work out of the box, or with very few configuration. -- Mickal Scherer
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Monday 29 September 2003 13:38, Eddie wrote: Do not split KDE into so many silly packages. No distro does this and it is ridiculous and too confusing. debian does it, suse too. Some one will say that you can install what you want and leave out other stuff, but if you use urpmi and/or gurpmi it still installs all the packages as before because of dependencies. Please go back to the way it was, it was s easier to keep track of. Eddie Mihalow Jr-Silver Club Member Splitting is good. I do not own a scanner so why should i install sane required to use kooka, beacuse i use the old kdegraphics package ? i only use kmail and konqueror, why should i have 5 more useless kdenetwork application that i will never use. -- Mickaël Scherer
Re: [Cooker] And next ? - cooperation with major disk vendor?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Svetoslav Slavtchev wrote: Le dim 28/09/2003 à 19:44, Keld Jørn Simonsen a écrit : One thing I saw which could enhance the availablilty of Mandrake was to make an alliance with a major disk vendor, eg. Maxtor, to preinstalle mandrake on a number of disks - free of charge. I think this is what Lindows have done with Seagate for their 40 GB disks, and I see quite some potential for that kind of arrangement. This is stupid ... You don't know where the disk will be installed, and so if you don't support well the hardware you will just panic ... Bad reputation for linux. hm, where will you panic with a i586 kernel in todays world? i really don't think it'll be a problem. but a really good user freindly hardware detection will be needed (see the OT: impressed by SuSE) # urpmi mklivecd Then, try the hwdetect script it provides ... (it is used very early in init on the live cds). Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/eCB3rJK6UGDSBKcRAnenAJ0QUKtxpgrAxe1cZbImSZf+ORoprACcCKZP 7MI3CwcZocOctT0IyTj+cgE= =0Zho -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Michael Scherer wrote: On Monday 29 September 2003 13:38, Eddie wrote: Do not split KDE into so many silly packages. No distro does this and it is ridiculous and too confusing. debian does it, suse too. Some one will say that you can install what you want and leave out other stuff, but if you use urpmi and/or gurpmi it still installs all the packages as before because of dependencies. Please go back to the way it was, it was s easier to keep track of. Eddie Mihalow Jr-Silver Club Member Splitting is good. I do not own a scanner so why should i install sane required to use kooka, beacuse i use the old kdegraphics package ? i only use kmail and konqueror, why should i have 5 more useless kdenetwork application that i will never use. And why do I in a corporate network, with no modem attached, need to install a setuid binary (pppd) just to install kmail (which used to install kppp also, which requires ppp). Sorry, but this is a good move that has been requested for a long time, you won't find many supporters for reverting this. Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/eCGarJK6UGDSBKcRAmr5AJ9jYKXMs7+grzY0SkACbkcvue2rdQCfU4gU ymhlt8u2A30psEvqWCuMLiQ= =7QYv -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Buchan Milne a écrit : | And why do I in a corporate network, with no modem attached, need to | install a setuid binary (pppd) just to install kmail (which used to | install kppp also, which requires ppp). | | Sorry, but this is a good move that has been requested for a long time, | you won't find many supporters for reverting this. And if you remove cups you also remove samba. Can't have samba without a cups server even if thera are no print service on the host. This tells Mdk folks could classfy packages dependancies inside rules and clearly define if it realy need to be dependant. - -- ~ Léa Gris () Campagne du ruban texte brut contre les courriels en HTML, /\ contre les pièces jointes Microsoft. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/eCOqiNTO/wgn58kRAtbPAJ47TOwSqpawGaxo6gUu1CIRTeglawCfeMkj k+02jJOKG7Ix5gukSkso1Mk= =JIhm -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Le Lundi 29 Septembre 2003 14:20, Lea Gris a écrit : Buchan Milne a écrit : | And why do I in a corporate network, with no modem attached, need to | install a setuid binary (pppd) just to install kmail (which used to | install kppp also, which requires ppp). | | Sorry, but this is a good move that has been requested for a long time, | you won't find many supporters for reverting this. And if you remove cups you also remove samba. Can't have samba without a cups server even if thera are no print service on the host. This tells Mdk folks could classfy packages dependancies inside rules and clearly define if it realy need to be dependant. One good way would be to provides printserver on all printing apps (cups, lpr, lprng...) and samba requires it. This will give choice. Maybe we should create an empty packages providing printserver to permit to not install lpr server, this will give choice to user: # urpmi samba one of this is need 1 cups 2 lprng 3 no_printer_server What is your choice ? -- Linux pour Mac !? Enfin le moyen de transformer une pomme en véritable ordinateur. - JL. Olivier Thauvin - http://nanardon.homelinux.org/
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Lea Gris wrote: Buchan Milne a écrit : | And why do I in a corporate network, with no modem attached, need to | install a setuid binary (pppd) just to install kmail (which used to | install kppp also, which requires ppp). | | Sorry, but this is a good move that has been requested for a long time, | you won't find many supporters for reverting this. And if you remove cups you also remove samba. Can't have samba without a cups server even if thera are no print service on the host. This tells Mdk folks could classfy packages dependancies inside rules and clearly define if it realy need to be dependant. $ urpmq -d samba-server|grep cups libcups2 You don't need a full cups installation, but since samba is built against CUPS (apparently this has some advantages, ask Till for more details), you do need the library. But, then again, so do a lot of other packages. I do try and avoid adding extra dependencies (see samba3-passdb-mysql and samba3-passdb-xml for instance), but some are unavoidable. Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/eCbzrJK6UGDSBKcRAssJAJ9m91xAManFq7c8m+0BFOy7+a96nACfVXJ4 AV+xE2LLjr2CMldzAKdG5YA= =tG6O -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Olivier Thauvin wrote: One good way would be to provides printserver on all printing apps (cups, lpr, lprng...) and samba requires it. They already provide lpddaemon. [EMAIL PROTECTED] stew]$ urpmf --provides lpddaemon cups:lpddaemon LPRng:lpddaemon lpr has been remoced, I believe. -- Stew Benedict -- MandrakeSoft
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Olivier Thauvin wrote: Le Lundi 29 Septembre 2003 14:20, Lea Gris a écrit : Buchan Milne a écrit : | And why do I in a corporate network, with no modem attached, need to | install a setuid binary (pppd) just to install kmail (which used to | install kppp also, which requires ppp). | | Sorry, but this is a good move that has been requested for a long time, | you won't find many supporters for reverting this. And if you remove cups you also remove samba. Can't have samba without a cups server even if thera are no print service on the host. This tells Mdk folks could classfy packages dependancies inside rules and clearly define if it realy need to be dependant. One good way would be to provides printserver on all printing apps (cups, lpr, lprng...) and samba requires it. This will give choice. Maybe we should create an empty packages providing printserver to permit to not install lpr server, this will give choice to user: # urpmi samba one of this is need 1 cups 2 lprng 3 no_printer_server What is your choice ? This has no bearing on the matter, since we build against libcups. If we didn't, you wouldn't require any printing-related software installed. Regards, Buchan - -- |--Another happy Mandrake Club member--| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x202 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQE/eCvQrJK6UGDSBKcRAiskAJ9xymQ8A79/cSZf7djoTA+ihDDfrwCcCstu 0zpQPYhl1GA5DGBo9ONeBjU= =IbyJ -END PGP SIGNATURE- * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Le Dimanche 28 Septembre 2003 10:19, Warly a écrit : - What could we do, as a community, to increase the acceptance of mandrakelinux? Download is very well for people having a fast link. But people having a slow 56k link have few reasons to subscribe to the club. My proposition is to ask people if they want to help or some help or nothing. - allow to query the database to find people living in the same area. - create a mailing list for each area. Only club members of the same area can access to it. This is not complicated and can increase the interest for the club. I do this job in my LUG. It is well structured but this is not true eveywhere. -- Pierre Jarillon - http://pjarillon.free.fr/ Vice-président de l'ABUL : http://abul.org/
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 20:55, Buchan Milne wrote: This has no bearing on the matter, since we build against libcups. If we didn't, you wouldn't require any printing-related software installed. If libcups2 isn't exclusive of any of the other printing systems, is it such a big problem to install it? All it requires is some near-universal graphics, crypto and compression libraries. Cheers; Leon
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 12:07:47AM +0200, Buchan Milne wrote:
- How to have more contributors?
A bugzilla (or similar product) for the release version? Seems strange
I know but if you hook people on the concept as users with a smaller bug
number (hopefully) in a release version you could well spark the
interest needed (as well as hone the skills needed) for working in
here. Seems an odd angle I realize but since people keep saying. I
don't program so they won't want me around. Maybe something of this
nature will help in showing people that they can contribute. Of course
in my case not being in the middle of a Paycheck major release at the
same time would help, but that's a personal problem grin
http://bugs.mandrakelinux.com/
# drakbug
(I don't know how much this will be advertised and if it is all working
and tested ... but note that bugs will probably treated more harshly than
in bugzilla - where reporters are sometimes given usage tips when they
have filed a non-bug)
It works. Stew and I spent a fair amount of time on drakbug to make it work
with Anthill... see bug #1. That is a test from me using drakbug (slightly
mangled /etc/mandrake-release) to report against Corporate 2.1.
And yes, bugs on Anthill will be treated very harshly. Support requests
will be killed immediately and referred to MandrakeExpert. Cooker bugs will
be nixed immediately and referred to Bugzilla. Valid reports will be
evaluated and essential fixes will be put into updates. Things deemed
insignificant will likely be closed (this is more of a means to report
really nasty bugs for fixing... not little things like fonts in gkrellm).
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
lynx -source http://linsec.ca/vdanen.asc | gpg --import
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Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Sun Sep 28, 2003 at 04:41:35PM -0700, James Sparenberg wrote:
http://bugs.mandrakelinux.com/
# drakbug
(I don't know how much this will be advertised and if it is all working
and tested ... but note that bugs will probably treated more harshly than
in bugzilla - where reporters are sometimes given usage tips when they
have filed a non-bug)
Regards,
Buchan
thanks I know that Vincent had/has been working on this... Is it
ready for prime time? If so I know a number of folks on the expert list
that would be willing to assist via this tool. But I'd rather let
Vincent make the announcement, since most of it will be in his lap, so
to speak.
It's ready. I was waiting for more finished translations to roll out 0.2.4
final, but what's up is essentially ready for prime time.
Not sure on an official announcement or PR, but it will likely be linked to
from the 9.2 errata page, MandrakeSecure, Bugzilla, MandrakeExpert, and IIRC
it is in the feature list for 9.2.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
lynx -source http://linsec.ca/vdanen.asc | gpg --import
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Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Sun Sep 28, 2003 at 02:36:41PM -0700, James Sparenberg wrote:
[...]
- How to have more contributors?
A bugzilla (or similar product) for the release version? Seems strange
I know but if you hook people on the concept as users with a smaller bug
number (hopefully) in a release version you could well spark the
interest needed (as well as hone the skills needed) for working in
http://bugs.mandrakelinux.com/
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
lynx -source http://linsec.ca/vdanen.asc | gpg --import
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Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Sun, Sep 28, 2003 at 07:21:01PM -0400, jokerman64 wrote: but if updates worked better you'd probably do them wouldn't you? No, never. ;-) I hate operating system updates since the early eighties from the last millenium (ALTOS XENIX 2.5, 1982). Liebe Grüße, Nora. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM-NETZ Neue Medien, Berlin http://www.im-netz.de/ WWW von Frauen für Frauen, Hamburghttp://www.w4w.net/ Lesbian Computer Networks, Helsinki http://www.sappho.net/
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 10:56:30AM +0200, Teletchéa Stéphane wrote: Not all of us have high bandwith connection. I test cooker at home, but i can download easily at work : i can download an iso with only rpms modified at work, and use them as 'update' home to test the improvements Oh no, you download iso's at work, unpack them and remaster them with your own rpm's for testing at home? Might it possibly easier to rsync at work and then makeing iso's for home testing? Liebe Grüße, Nora. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM-NETZ Neue Medien, Berlin http://www.im-netz.de/ WWW von Frauen für Frauen, Hamburghttp://www.w4w.net/ Lesbian Computer Networks, Helsinki http://www.sappho.net/
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Monday 29 September 2003 11:40 am, Vincent Danen wrote: On Sun Sep 28, 2003 at 02:36:41PM -0700, James Sparenberg wrote: [...] - How to have more contributors? A bugzilla (or similar product) for the release version? Seems strange I know but if you hook people on the concept as users with a smaller bug number (hopefully) in a release version you could well spark the interest needed (as well as hone the skills needed) for working in http://bugs.mandrakelinux.com/ Wow, cool. -- Bret Baptist Systems and Technical Support Specialist [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet Exposure, Inc. http://www.iexposure.com (612)676-1946 x17 Web Development-Web Marketing-ISP Services -- Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday.
RE: [Cooker] And next ?
- What was wrong in 9.2 development process? Enhancement requests should be handled first and all defects from previous releases fixed or closed. - We though a bit late in the 9.2 development process to split cooker ml, we should do it now. I agree. I am interested in printing and laptop development stuff only for the moment. It would be nice to subscribe to only the components one is interested in. - What could we do to improve 9.3/10.0 development. Earlier feature freeze and more subsequent Beta/RC. Also, focus on having stable/accessible/current mirrors. - What should we do to improve the Wiki. - Should we have cooker snapshot ISOs? I think these would be unnecessary - What could we do, as a community, to increase the acceptance of mandrakelinux? Target the corporate desktop/client market. - And anything related to the mandrakelinux distro. Include no brainer tools/wizards for creating print/file servers or other types of servers. Include tools/wizards for clients to join windows domains...
RE: [Cooker] And next ?
- What should we do to improve the Wiki. Create test plans or just simple requests for outside testers when a major feature is added or package updated...
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Sunday 28 September 2003 10:19, Warly wrote: - How to have more contributors? while browsing the web, i have seen that gentoo and netbsd announce their new developpers. this may be a good idea,in order to show that new contributers comes. And, even if this sound a little childish, having a @contributer.mandrake.org mail address for contributer could do some subliminal advertisement, showing that people can contribute without having to be employed by mdk. -- Mickaël Scherer
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 10:50:48PM +0200, Michael Scherer wrote:
- How to have more contributors?
while browsing the web, i have seen that gentoo and netbsd announce
their new developpers. this may be a good idea,in order to show that
new contributers comes.
And, even if this sound a little childish, having a
@contributer.mandrake.org mail address for contributer could do some
subliminal advertisement, showing that people can contribute without
having to be employed by mdk.
This is what @linux-mandrake.com addresses are for.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
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RE: [Cooker] And next ?
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, MEISCH,CORY (HP-Vancouver,ex1) wrote: - What could we do, as a community, to increase the acceptance of mandrakelinux? Target the corporate desktop/client market. - And anything related to the mandrakelinux distro. Include no brainer tools/wizards for creating print/file servers or other types of servers. Include tools/wizards for clients to join windows domains... It's broken during installation (AFAICT), but try: # drakauth You will see we have winbind support (aka as close to Windows-style domain membership as is possible without samba3 in main). Next releae we should have AD support (if all goes well). BTW, have you looked at publishing printers in AD? It should be possible with samba3. And, by default, samba should share out all printers, and any member of the adm group should be able to upload print drivers for point-n-print drivers support. I also packaged the cups native windows drivers and informed the right people (allowing you full use of the ppd files installed for CUPS), but I don't know if it will be on the commercial disks. In short, there isn't much we haven't done, and I hope we can get a comprehensive libconf-based tool for configuring the rest for the next release (swat-clone isn't too bad, but we need to simplify the ui by abstracting it more from the config file). Regards, Buchan -- |Registered Linux User #182071-| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Monday 29 September 2003 01:50 pm, Nora Etukudo wrote: On Sun, Sep 28, 2003 at 07:21:01PM -0400, jokerman64 wrote: but if updates worked better you'd probably do them wouldn't you? No, never. ;-) I hate operating system updates since the early eighties from the last millenium (ALTOS XENIX 2.5, 1982). Liebe Grüße, Nora. Hmmm... Gee, Nora, I know Mandrake updates pretty well from some of their older releases.. but I doubt that you'll be able to update in one jump from Altos Xenix 2.5 ;-) V.
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003, Vincent Danen wrote: On Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 10:50:48PM +0200, Michael Scherer wrote: - How to have more contributors? while browsing the web, i have seen that gentoo and netbsd announce their new developpers. this may be a good idea,in order to show that new contributers comes. And, even if this sound a little childish, having a @contributer.mandrake.org mail address for contributer could do some subliminal advertisement, showing that people can contribute without having to be employed by mdk. This is what @linux-mandrake.com addresses are for. But again, there is no documented policy (and maybe even the resitrictions on what you should use it for) anywhere, so people don't know how to get one. hint Of course, it should be possible to have the entire development infrastructure in LDAP, which (if administered well) could allow more scalability in managing rights of contributors etc. It would also allow more public advertising of the infrastructure support Mandrake can provide as an IT solution. /hint -- |Registered Linux User #182071-| Buchan MilneMechanical Engineer, Network Manager Cellphone * Work+27 82 472 2231 * +27 21 8828820x121 Stellenbosch Automotive Engineering http://www.cae.co.za GPG Key http://ranger.dnsalias.com/bgmilne.asc 1024D/60D204A7 2919 E232 5610 A038 87B1 72D6 AC92 BA50 60D2 04A7 * Please click on http://www.cae.co.za/disclaimer.htm to read our e-mail disclaimer or send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a copy. *
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Le Dimanche 28 Septembre 2003 10:19, Warly a écrit : It may be a good idea, before cooker opens again, to take these days to have some brainstorm. May you give your opinion on : in my opinion: --- - What was wrong in 9.2 development process? - We though a bit late in the 9.2 developement process to split cooker ml, we should do it now. - What could we do to improve 9.3/10.0 development. if Mandrake wants a popular Desktop: test is a big part of developement but it's not so easy for a newcomer to test while developpers can't explain how to clic a mouse, that's newcomers who say it's easy, and it works! or never succeed in installing that $[EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux, and they can test some sort of things no developper could just imagine the reason why that could be done... I recommand you to define an easy and comprehensive way to test for newcomers. - What should we do to improve the Wiki. increase speed! - Should we have cooker snapshot ISOs? it could be usefull for who do not have 7GB free for packages and iso, or just to make a step freeze in the development for clearer reports - What could we do, as a community, to increase the acceptance of mandrakelinux? I think I answer that at What could we do to improve 9.3/10.0 development - How to have more contributors? You must form people by the way you are educationalist. And people can become contributors. This point followed by RH and MDK, before the crisis, but in the dream of infinite profits, could be a good one if it costs no money, off course! ;-) And anything related to the mandrakelinux distro. err... could have a software for automatic integration of packages of other disto,... and automatic port of softwares running on othe os ;-) Make clear and up to date which hardware is compatible or not should be a good thing. Newbies (and others) like it. Manufacturers should want their products listed. May be open source have not enough image of serious or professional for little enterprises, because everyone use something else (begin by a m or a a and end by a $), and use a software that everyone uses, that is the best, and sometimes that nobody really knows how it works, and what it can do! Just pedagogy! Thanks to the cooker team for the job.
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Mon Sep 29, 2003 at 11:37:22PM +0200, Buchan Milne wrote:
This is what @linux-mandrake.com addresses are for.
But again, there is no documented policy (and maybe even the resitrictions
on what you should use it for) anywhere, so people don't know how to get
one.
Hasn't it always been to email Lenny and ask?
hint
Of course, it should be possible to have the entire development
infrastructure in LDAP, which (if administered well) could allow more
scalability in managing rights of contributors etc. It would also allow
more public advertising of the infrastructure support Mandrake can provide
as an IT solution.
/hint
A discussion for another day... =) A *lot* of work would have to be done to
make everything able to authenticate against LDAP. The build machines
should be easy enough, but to have stuff like Club, Expert, Anthill,
Bugzilla, etc. also authenticate against LDAP... now that would be a little
challenging.
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
lynx -source http://linsec.ca/vdanen.asc | gpg --import
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pgp0.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Le Lundi 29 Septembre 2003 15:11, Pierre Jarillon a écrit : My proposition is to ask people if they want to help or some help or nothing. - allow to query the database to find people living in the same area. - create a mailing list for each area. Only club members of the same area can access to it. You want more contributors, or less?? If you cluster or drive them to pay, you will have less. To be in the Mandrake club or not, to contribute to a linux distribution or not, is a choice. No obligation to pay, no obligation to earn to pay. To pay M$ is an obligation. Do you want Mandrake to become a new Microsoft? :-)
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Sunday 28 September 2003 9:05 am, Pierre Jarillon honored me with this communique: Le Dimanche 28 Septembre 2003 13:48, Nora Etukudo a écrit : On Sun, Sep 28, 2003 at 10:19:44AM +0200, Warly wrote: - Should we have cooker snapshot ISOs? No. I don't need ISO's at all during development. 'rsync'ing to a local server and installing via net from there is cheap, fast and reliable. This is not my opinion. Some problems are only found with a fresh install or an upgrade of a previous stable distribution. A very good point. I personally rarely use the ISOs myself, though I do download and burn them occasionally just so I have a benchmark disk. It is so irritating to have one of those cooker moments when you find your system in such a state that you need to reboot from the CD, but you don't have a CD current enough to allow you to do so! (I've had this happen a couple of times.) Without ISO images, how do we (the cooker tester community) locate the problems that the real world users will encounter? I know that haven't done a full install from an ISO for a long time, but I will soon - I have another WinBox that I'm ready to sacrifice to the Penguin God. I can understand the point of view that we don't need ISOs, at least for probably 80% of the cooker cycle. The final 20% should have at least a few ISO releases. (But then, don't we do that already? RC1, RC2, and in my opinion there should at least a quick-turn RC3 ... but then I'm an electrical engineer, and thus biased in favor of excessive prototyping. Ideally, RC3 should be the released product.) It might be nice to have an ISO or two before RC1. Maybe that's overkill, maybe not. Just my .02 euros ... Jay -- I can bend minds with my spoon.
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Sun, 2003-09-28 at 03:19, Warly wrote: - What was wrong in 9.2 development process? The same thing wrong with them all - too little QA/freeze, although this is somewhat better now. Also ludicrous changelogs like fixed something or rebuild. Laurent is the worst about this. Fixed *WHAT*? Rebuild WHY? - We though a bit late in the 9.2 developement process to split cooker ml, we should do it now. Debian is split to death, and it's a mess. I'd send the bugs to a different list, with followups set to cooker, and leave the rest. - What could we do, as a community, to increase the acceptance of mandrakelinux? QA, QA, QA. More QA. Get manufacturers to support Mandrake for applications. Specifically, IBM and Oracle. - How to have more contributors? Better documentation. I've made a couple of mdk rpms for stuff that isn't otherwise available, but it was a mysterious process to get it in Mdk, so I just never did. And anything related to the mandrakelinux distro. For God's sake, a urpmi proxy, like apt-proxy. Corporations are not going to want each box pulling packages separately, and they don't want to mirror, either. They just want to pull the stuff they need - once. Also, a place where folks can go get urpmi lines. Not just for stuff like MdkClub and mirrors, but kind of like Debian has a list of misc. repositories available that make it easy to locate Mdk-specific packages for whatever the user is looking for. Almost all unsupported and unaffiliated, but at least a place where a user can go look for homegrown packages of stuff (a la Texstar, etc.). -- Brad Felmey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Uncompensated Mandrake Guinea Pigs, Inc.
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 04:50, Michael Scherer wrote: On Sunday 28 September 2003 10:19, Warly wrote: - How to have more contributors? And, even if this sound a little childish, having a @contributer.mandrake.org mail address for contributer could do some subliminal advertisement, showing that people can contribute without having to be employed by mdk. Good idea. And a simple way to determine who gets early ISO access? Cheers; Leon
[Cooker] And next ?
It may be a good idea, before cooker opens again, to take these days to have some brainstorm. May you give your opinion on : - What was wrong in 9.2 development process? - We though a bit late in the 9.2 developement process to split cooker ml, we should do it now. - What could we do to improve 9.3/10.0 development. - What should we do to improve the Wiki. - Should we have cooker snapshot ISOs? - What could we do, as a community, to increase the acceptance of mandrakelinux? - How to have more contributors? And anything related to the mandrakelinux distro. -- Warly
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Warly wrote: - What was wrong in 9.2 development process? Well maybe a bit too many problems with mirrors. And the mirror list could be improved a bit (new looks, new mirrors added, old ones removed) And it would be nice to get beta testers start testing earlier and not too late when the development is almost at the end. - What could we do to improve 9.3/10.0 development. Eliminate problems with mirrors and get testers to participate earlier in the development process and more actively. - What should we do to improve the Wiki. Maybe people should get their username and password mailed right after they register. I have a feeling that Wiki is a little bit messy now and I guess it will get even messier when more content is added. So I think it would be a good idea to make it easier to find the information needed. - Should we have cooker snapshot ISOs? I think this would be a good idea. Maybe at least one snapshot between two beta/RC releases. And there should be more snapshots before beta 1 so that people can try it and test it earlier. - What could we do, as a community, to increase the acceptance of mandrakelinux? Support Mandrake Linux fan sites where people help end users if they have problems. There should also be some list of these sites so that new users know where they can get help (preferebly in their native language offcourse). And then we must help as much as we can. - How to have more contributors? I think that more people would contribute if they knew how simple it is to do that. So there should be a lot of information on how to do it and this should be easily reachable. And anything related to the mandrakelinux distro. Just keep being so open with development project (or even more) and thanks to all developers and beta testers and translators and artists for such a great distro.
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
This is my first day and the first post in this list :) - What could we do to improve 9.3/10.0 development. I believe that in this actual GNU/Linux distros market, like any other market, only those with exclusive or catching features may get popular and eventually successful. MandrakeClub is already a plus for MdkLinux as well as the available support and information base. As MdkLinux user i would like to suggest some ideas for the upcoming releases: 1. For the download version, one-CD release for a basic installation of a standard desktop computer. This could include one WM (see 2), one Office package, etc. The idea is that with such a CD anyone could have a full featured desktop without messing drawning in thousands of RPMs. For first-time users, one CD might be less confusing and less time consuming (downloading and burning). The rest of packages would come in 2-3 extra CDs. 2. Using Xfce4 (or other light weight) as default WM. Almost all distros come with one WM in the default installation (KDE or Gnome). The adventages of using such a light weight WM are (IMO): 2.1 The space-saving of a light WM (ie Xfce4) could allow to fit all necessary packages in one-CD full featured installation (see 1). 2.2 Better GUI experience. An improved responsiveness and overall performance, compared to KDE and Gnome, for (almost) any computer configuration. Xfce4 offers enough eye candy and performance to charm many first-time users. 2.3 Mandrake might potentially offer a completely Mandrake-styled GUI. MdkGalaxy allows the use of KDE and Gnome applications with the same look, therefore, finally a coherent GUI. 2.4 Including Superkaramba plus some Mandrake-styled themes is a catching feature that many users will like, mostly the first-time ones. 3. Installation profiles. Sometime in the early installation process the program could ask the user whether he/she would like a expert or default installtion. The default option could show several installation profiles. Several profiles from minimum to full. In the full profile and expert mode options, the user would get asked how many of the CDs has so urpm can prepare the adecuate list of packages (i really miss this option from earlier Mdk versions). - What should we do to improve the Wiki. The only thing i can think of is advertising it in the MandrakeClub website. I bet not many users know of its existence. This would help to have it in several languages as well. I propose to include a permanent link in MandrakeClub´s site and send a notice to it so users will know of it.
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Hi! On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 10:19:44 +0200 Warly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: May you give your opinion on : - What was wrong in 9.2 development process? - What could we do to improve 9.3/10.0 development. - mdk seems to develop/change their own tools (Drak* - with the exception of urpmi and rpmdrake) just before the release, with sometimes major changes even after a release candidate. If this stuff would be finished earlier, it could be tested in cooker. - some mdk developers don't seem to use/like bugzilla?! - some packages have a maintainer who is not really the maintainer of this package (i.e. most changes are done by someone else), so a bug report isn't assigned to the correct person. A proposal how development/mdk could be a bit different: - change release cycle for full blown releases to about once a year - provide updates for packages (or group of packages) when ready (i.e. copy them into main if no bugs are left...) - maybe provide update CDs from time to time I guess this or similar things were proposed several times now, but distribution through MdkClub seems to be an option now. - What should we do to improve the Wiki. It would be nice if it could post change notifications not only once a day but at once. I also don't like the time consuming process to get an account for it. Everyone should be able to get one as easy as a bugzilla account. - Should we have cooker snapshot ISOs? That would be similar to the above model - but it would give the normal user the advantage that those released packages are tested a bit... -- Michael Reinsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mr.uue.org pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Sun, Sep 28, 2003 at 10:19:44AM +0200, Warly wrote: - Should we have cooker snapshot ISOs? No. I don't need ISO's at all during development. 'rsync'ing to a local server and installing via net from there is cheap, fast and reliable. I would like to see more focus on Mandrake AutoInstall. Liebe Grüße, Nora. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] IM-NETZ Neue Medien, Berlin http://www.im-netz.de/ WWW von Frauen für Frauen, Hamburghttp://www.w4w.net/ Lesbian Computer Networks, Helsinki http://www.sappho.net/
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
What about a metadistro with a cdrom (in the future a dvdrom) runing Mandrake from the cd-driver? similar to Knoppix but with all the Mandrake goodies. Lot of people has started to use linux after a successfull Knoppix/Gnome-live cd experience. Regards Francisco Alcaraz Murcia (Spain)
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Am Sonntag, 28. September 2003 10:19 schrieb Warly: It may be a good idea, before cooker opens again, to take these days to have some brainstorm. May you give your opinion on : - What was wrong in 9.2 development process? - the mirror situation - the mailinglists were eating mails (on all lists, not just cooker) Its just time now, to do anything about it. - We though a bit late in the 9.2 developement process to split cooker ml, we should do it now. That would be cool imho. It saves time and bandwith to be able to focus on topics on is interested in. - What could we do to improve 9.3/10.0 development. going further in the direction, we are moving :) - What should we do to improve the Wiki. More clear information, on how to participate. - Should we have cooker snapshot ISOs? I think no. - What could we do, as a community, to increase the acceptance of mandrakelinux? HowTos, Information, howtos. Fixing drakconnect. - How to have more contributors? Decreasing time consumption and power needed to participate. It was sometimes like fighting against windmills to get heared on the cooker list. Splitting up the lists could help here. And anything related to the mandrakelinux distro. Fix drakconnect. IMHO drakconnect is in a lot of ways the weakest point of mandrake. On the other hand it so hard to fix problems that drakconnect could cause, because the needed informations may be on the net, that you can't reach. So it has to be number one priority to make absolutly sure, that all net related things work flawless. I could count countless facts here, but there was allready a lot of discussion about it. The need is bigger to document them on the wiki (drakconnect, drakfirewall, drakgw ) Steffen
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Sunday 28 September 2003 13:17, Michael Reinsch wrote: Hi! - some packages have a maintainer who is not really the maintainer of this package (i.e. most changes are done by someone else), so a bug report isn't assigned to the correct person. we all receive bugreport for all packages, but, this is right, this could be improved. A proposal how development/mdk could be a bit different: - change release cycle for full blown releases to about once a year no, because hardware change so often that 1 year is too long to have the hardware supported. 6 month allow people to have their new hardware without too much problem. This question has been so discussed that i think it should go in a FAQ on the wiki :) -- Michaël Scherer
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Hi! On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 14:22:14 +0200 Steffen Barszus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - How to have more contributors? Decreasing time consumption and power needed to participate. It was sometimes like fighting against windmills to get heared on the cooker list. Splitting up the lists could help here. I am against splitting up cooker list because I think nearly everyone will end up subscribing all/most of those lists. And another problem we will see: which list is the correct one for my question / proposal / discussion? So people will CC all lists which might be concerned which will bring us even more traffic. You might want to have a look at OpenOffice.org. They have several mailing lists for each sub project. This is (imho) quite confusing and you see a lot of CCs. -- Michael Reinsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://mr.uue.org pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
Le Dimanche 28 Septembre 2003 13:48, Nora Etukudo a écrit : On Sun, Sep 28, 2003 at 10:19:44AM +0200, Warly wrote: - Should we have cooker snapshot ISOs? No. I don't need ISO's at all during development. 'rsync'ing to a local server and installing via net from there is cheap, fast and reliable. This is not my opinion. Some problems are only found with a fresh install or an upgrade of a previous stable distribution. -- Pierre Jarillon - http://pjarillon.free.fr/ Vice-président de l'ABUL : http://abul.org/
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
- What was wrong in 9.2 development process? - We though a bit late in the 9.2 developement process to split cooker ml, we should do it now. - What could we do to improve 9.3/10.0 development. - What should we do to improve the Wiki. - Should we have cooker snapshot ISOs? - What could we do, as a community, to increase the acceptance of mandrakelinux? - How to have more contributors? And anything related to the mandrakelinux distro. Way to much make it preety and not enough make it work. there should be a Wiki section on bugs for when bugzilla goes down Split into ? ( programs - bugzilla output - mandrake as a whole?) More documentation at each stage Expand it so that it becomes the Mandrake Bible/Grimore Yes IF AND AS THEY ARE SAFE TO INSTALL (99.9%) Make the distro better improve/ build current loopback distros
Re: [Cooker] And next ?
On Sun, Sep 28, 2003 at 10:19:44AM +0200, Warly wrote: - What was wrong in 9.2 development process? I think the targets for a release should be set much earlier in the process. Especially targets for nr of major bugs in the software to be released. Focus more on a small set of features that should work perfectly and others that are nice to have but not critical. This should be clearly linked with how people use mandrake-linux. - We though a bit late in the 9.2 developement process to split cooker ml, we should do it now. I don't know, the only thing that can be annoying are the bugreports from bugzilla, but then again, they can trigger a response from a large group, which can lead to a quicker confirmation (or lack thereof). - What could we do to improve 9.3/10.0 development. be clearer in the goals and criteria for the target. - What should we do to improve the Wiki. separate development and use-guides - Should we have cooker snapshot ISOs? would be nice, but maybe another approach would be better: every week, freeze cooker so the mirrors can catch up. Make sure a network upgrade can be done without glitches and have a few days of testing of the current status. Fixes can then be added for the next freeze. (Not being a package developer, I have no idea whether this is feasible!) - What could we do, as a community, to increase the acceptance of mandrakelinux? reduce the amount of BUT arguments in the reviews by making sure the things that should work, just work! It is also important to know what should work and what is just a bonus. - How to have more contributors? respect! And anything related to the mandrakelinux distro. the club needs an overhaul! Apart from the donation aspect I see no reason to join it. I hope this helps! Simon
