[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That there are apparent contradictions as consciousness unfolds, does not imply that ALL contradictory statements are valid or enlightened. Doublespeak, masquerading as rational or superior insights, is the tool of charlatans and political repression. It is manifestation the orwellian vison of 1984. A clear, finely tuned intellect is necessary for realization and appreciation of higher states. Muddled thinking, gross and over reaching generalizations, are not a sign of higher states, but of bondage and ignorance. Thanks for this. I haven't had such a good laugh in days. I dunno... maybe my thinking is muddled, but Akashanon's comment didn't strike me as the least bit funny. Yesterday, while alone on a trip to Iowa City, the sentence, A clear, finely tuned intellect is necessary for realization and appreciation of higher states. was in the back of my mind all day. And judging by my recent experience, I disagree. I can see how a finely tuned intellect would be useful for more accurately conveying in language the experience of non-dual awareness, but for me, at least, the real appreciation has been on the level of heart. Trying to analyze it intellectually is only mildly interesting and somewhat frustrating; but, just innocently being aware of the awareness is like bathing in love. Alex Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That there are apparent contradictions as consciousness unfolds, does not imply that ALL contradictory statements are valid or enlightened. Doublespeak, masquerading as rational or superior insights, is the tool of charlatans and political repression. It is manifestation the orwellian vison of 1984. A clear, finely tuned intellect is necessary for realization and appreciation of higher states. Muddled thinking, gross and over reaching generalizations, are not a sign of higher states, but of bondage and ignorance. Thanks for this. I haven't had such a good laugh in days. I dunno... maybe my thinking is muddled, but Akashanon's comment didn't strike me as the least bit funny. My sense of humor is a little weird. :-) The whole idea of someone trying to claim that idealized qualities of intellectual argumentation are a necessary characteristic of enlightenment just cracked me right up. Yesterday, while alone on a trip to Iowa City, the sentence, A clear, finely tuned intellect is necessary for realization and appreciation of higher states. was in the back of my mind all day. And judging by my recent experience, I disagree. So do I. That was one reason I considered it so funny. *Nothing* except being sentient is necessary for realization of and appreciation of higher states of awareness. I can see how a finely tuned intellect would be useful for more accurately conveying in language the experience of non-dual awareness... I'm harder to please. I don't think than an intellect the size of Mount Rushmore would be the least bit of help when trying to convey the experience of non-dual awareness. Can't be done. People who consider them- selves intellectuals would just like to believe it can be done. :-) ...but for me, at least, the real appreciation has been on the level of heart. Which is why intellectuals (or people who are stuck in the intellect) just can't get it. Trying to analyze it intellectually is only mildly interesting and somewhat frustrating; I liken intellectual discussions of enlightenment to masturbating in public. Nice, I guess, if you're into that sorta thing, but kind of a waste of time and energy if you're not. ...but, just innocently being aware of the awareness is like bathing in love. Yup. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That there are apparent contradictions as consciousness unfolds, does not imply that ALL contradictory statements are valid or enlightened. Doublespeak, masquerading as rational or superior insights, is the tool of charlatans and political repression. It is manifestation the orwellian vison of 1984. A clear, finely tuned intellect is necessary for realization and appreciation of higher states. Muddled thinking, gross and over reaching generalizations, are not a sign of higher states, but of bondage and ignorance. Thanks for this. I haven't had such a good laugh in days. I dunno... maybe my thinking is muddled, but Akashanon's comment didn't strike me as the least bit funny. Yesterday, while alone on a trip to Iowa City, the sentence, A clear, finely tuned intellect is necessary for realization and appreciation of higher states. was in the back of my mind all day. And judging by my recent experience, I disagree. I can see how a finely tuned intellect would be useful for more accurately conveying in language the experience of non-dual awareness, but for me, at least, the real appreciation has been on the level of heart. Trying to analyze it intellectually is only mildly interesting and somewhat frustrating; but, just innocently being aware of the awareness is like bathing in love. Alex As usual Maharishi is correct, if only one dares go behind the obvious. A finely tuned intellect IS bathing in love. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That there are apparent contradictions as consciousness unfolds, does not imply that ALL contradictory statements are valid or enlightened. Doublespeak, masquerading as rational or superior insights, is the tool of charlatans and political repression. It is manifestation the orwellian vison of 1984. A clear, finely tuned intellect is necessary for realization and appreciation of higher states. Muddled thinking, gross and over reaching generalizations, are not a sign of higher states, but of bondage and ignorance. Thanks for this. I haven't had such a good laugh in days. I dunno... maybe my thinking is muddled, but Akashanon's comment didn't strike me as the least bit funny. Yesterday, while alone on a trip to Iowa City, the sentence, A clear, finely tuned intellect is necessary for realization and appreciation of higher states. was in the back of my mind all day. And judging by my recent experience, I disagree. I can see how a finely tuned intellect would be useful for more accurately conveying in language the experience of non-dual awareness, but for me, at least, the real appreciation has been on the level of heart. Trying to analyze it intellectually is only mildly interesting and somewhat frustrating; but, just innocently being aware of the awareness is like bathing in love. Alex I think the word necessary was too strong. Though I think MMY in the Gita goes that far in saying that. Anyone have those quotes handy? Quite useful is perhaps a better restatement. Trying to analyze it intellectually is not away to realize IT. Many people get confused on this point. The intellect does realize IT via a forward analytical process, but but a reverse process of elimination. Like The Dog that Did Not Bark. A refined and sharp intellect can clearly discern what is NOT IT. Via a neti neti process, false premises of IT fall away. Utimately, the intellect is able to discern between iteslf and IT (Purusha). This is a beautifully inverted and hyper-concise sort of sutra, that becomes clear when it happens. There is more to it. Through discrimination (and a growing clarity of IT being aware of ITself), the intellect realizes, (in an Eureka like moment), that the intellect is not the doer. Up to that point, via neti neti, common sense and reasoning, its clear that the doer, (the individual self) is not the body, and its not the cognitive/conceptual mind. Realization that the doer is not the intellect, or more precisely that the intellect is not a doer, is like a sword being pulled out of stone and used to cut away the last ropes holding one imprisoned. At that point its clear what the intellect is not, and what simply IS. The intellect which was thought, felt, held to be the core, is found not to be the core, and IT is realized to be the CORE. It is this realization of what the Core is, is what the intellect can do well. It can realize the distiction between buddhi (intellect) and Purusha. On the surface, the words as they are in the sutras, do not sound profound, but rather obvious (as in who would ever mistake the intellect which is active and discriminating with wholenss that is silence?) . Its when its realized that the real meaning of the sutra that the sutra's profoundness unfolds. Its a realization that the core is not the intellect, and what remains is the CORE. And the intellect clearly realizes it is different from the CORE. What remains --- the fruits of the intellects ability to sharply discern what is NOT --- is the CORE. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
On Jan 10, 2006, at 7:50 AM, Alex Stanley wrote:I dunno... maybe my thinking is muddled, but Akashanon's comment didn't strike me as the least bit funny. Yesterday, while alone on a trip to Iowa City, the sentence, "A clear, finely tuned intellect is necessary for realization and appreciation of higher states." was in the back of my mind all day. And judging by my recent experience, I disagree. I can see how a finely tuned intellect would be useful for more accurately conveying in language the experience of non-dual awareness, but for me, at least, the real appreciation has been on the level of heart. Trying to analyze it intellectually is only mildly interesting and somewhat frustrating; but, just innocently being aware of the awareness is like bathing in love. One of the characteristics of resting the mind in the Natural, non-dual State is that thoughts will not repeat themselves in samsaric chains--they self-liberate of and by themselves, "like a snake untying itself from a knot". The nice thing is, if we can experience thought from the perspective of this unified state, the pattern that causes them to arise repeatedly is immediately cut...for good...unless we recreate the same conditions that put them there in the first place... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One of the characteristics of resting the mind in the Natural, non- dual State is that thoughts will not repeat themselves in samsaric chains--they self-liberate of and by themselves, like a snake untying itself from a knot. The nice thing is, if we can experience thought from the perspective of this unified state, the pattern that causes them to arise repeatedly is immediately cut...for good... unless we recreate the same conditions that put them there in the first place... It would seem if the so-called non-dual state is enough to unknot the knot of samskara, then it is enough to prevent its re-knotting. Stick through water sort of thing. Observation on so-called non-dual state in later post. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
On Jan 10, 2006, at 3:20 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:It would seem if the "so-called" non-dual state is enough to unknot the knot of samskara, then it is enough to prevent its re-knotting. Stick through water sort of thing. samsara, not samskara. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
One of the characteristics of resting the mind in the Natural, non- dual State is that thoughts will not repeat themselves in samsaric chains--they self-liberate of and by themselves, like a snake untying itself from a knot. The nice thing is, if we can experience thought from the perspective of this unified state, the pattern that causes them to arise repeatedly is immediately cut...for good...unless we recreate the same conditions that put them there in the first place... Use of the term the non-dual state, in this context, appears odd to me. Maintaining pure awareness while holding a thought, consciousness glowing within itself -- akin to a developing yet not complete TMO CC state -- appears to be what you are referring to. The PC along with the thought is enough to disolve the vasana at the root of the repeated thought pattern. Yet CC, or CC type of states, are the essence of duality. It is the realization of Atman. Atman being seperate from all of this -- the world of change. And yet this so-called but erroneously termed non-dual state seems to be the foucs of some neo-advaitans and satsangians -- that this dual state is the end of the veda, a uphanishadic realization of the ultimate reality. The advaita of the shankaracharian traditions is true non-duality: the realization -- more than understanding -- the total groking that Atman is Brahman. That this inner consciousness glowing within itself, Atman, is also all of that -- all of (what appears to be) the changing phenomenal world. That is the non-dual state. Not a CC type experience. It is the realization that Atman is Brahman Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 10, 2006, at 3:20 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: It would seem if the so-called non-dual state is enough to unknot the knot of samskara, then it is enough to prevent its re-knotting. Stick through water sort of thing. samsara, not samskara. terms aside, what about my main point? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
On Jan 10, 2006, at 3:33 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:Use of the term the "non-dual state", in this context, appears odd to me. Maintaining pure awareness while holding a thought, consciousness glowing within itself -- akin to a developing yet not complete TMO CC state -- appears to be what you are referring to. The PC along with the thought is enough to disolve the vasana at the root of the repeated thought pattern. No this is not what I am referring to. The Sanskrit word would be "vidya", short for "brahma-vidya" or "rigpa" in Tibetan. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
On Jan 10, 2006, at 3:33 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 10, 2006, at 3:20 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: It would seem if the "so-called" non-dual state is enough to unknot the knot of samskara, then it is enough to prevent its re-knotting. Stick through water sort of thing. samsara, not samskara. terms aside, what about my main point? Which was? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 10, 2006, at 3:33 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: Use of the term the non-dual state, in this context, appears odd to me. Maintaining pure awareness while holding a thought, consciousness glowing within itself -- akin to a developing yet not complete TMO CC state -- appears to be what you are referring to. The PC along with the thought is enough to disolve the vasana at the root of the repeated thought pattern. No this is not what I am referring to. The Sanskrit word would be vidya, short for brahma-vidya or rigpa in Tibetan. OK. Thanks. But it appears that the atma-vidya -- having pure awareness along with thoughts -- can unknot some knots. But the deepest knots require brama-vidya. Parallel to releasing vasanas on physical plane, compared to those on astral and causal planes -- per yogananda model of things. Still, there is the question: if brama-vidya unknots the deepst of knots, won't that state tend to also prevent new knots. Along lines of a stick through water sort of thing? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 10, 2006, at 3:33 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 10, 2006, at 3:20 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: It would seem if the so-called non-dual state is enough to unknot the knot of samskara, then it is enough to prevent its re-knotting. Stick through water sort of thing. samsara, not samskara. terms aside, what about my main point? Which was? It would seem if the non-dual state is enough to unknot the deepst of knots, then it is enough to prevent its re-knotting. Stick through water sort of thing. In that state, how would new knots be formed, as you allude too. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
On Jan 10, 2006, at 3:43 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 10, 2006, at 3:33 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: Use of the term the "non-dual state", in this context, appears odd to me. Maintaining pure awareness while holding a thought, consciousness glowing within itself -- akin to a developing yet not complete TMO CC state -- appears to be what you are referring to. The PC along with the thought is enough to disolve the vasana at the root of the repeated thought pattern. No this is not what I am referring to. The Sanskrit word would be "vidya", short for "brahma-vidya" or "rigpa" in Tibetan. OK. Thanks. But it appears that the " "atma-vidya" "-- having pure awareness along with thoughts -- can unknot some knots. But the deepest knots require "brama-vidya". Parallel to releasing vasanas on physical plane, compared to those on astral and causal planes -- per yogananda model of things. Still, there is the question: if brama-vidya unknots the deepst of knots, won't that state tend to also prevent new knots. Along lines of "a stick through water" sort of thing? It might depend on how well you could rest in the Natural State and how good your integration is. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 10, 2006, at 3:43 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 10, 2006, at 3:33 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: Use of the term the non-dual state, in this context, appears odd to me. Maintaining pure awareness while holding a thought, consciousness glowing within itself -- akin to a developing yet not complete TMO CC state -- appears to be what you are referring to. The PC along with the thought is enough to disolve the vasana at the root of the repeated thought pattern. No this is not what I am referring to. The Sanskrit word would be vidya, short for brahma-vidya or rigpa in Tibetan. OK. Thanks. But it appears that the atma-vidya -- having pure awareness along with thoughts -- can unknot some knots. But the deepest knots require brama-vidya. Parallel to releasing vasanas on physical plane, compared to those on astral and causal planes -- per yogananda model of things. Still, there is the question: if brama-vidya unknots the deepst of knots, won't that state tend to also prevent new knots. Along lines of a stick through water sort of thing? It might depend on how well you could rest in the Natural State and how good your integration is. Well since at that point, it is ALL Brahman (NOT) acting withn Brahman, I assume it would be perfect integration. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
re: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/84484 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [BIG SNIP] My sense of the vasanas are the tight grip of residue and structure of conditionings and experiences that make I appear to be the body or mind or intellect. When that grip lossens, then that false sense of I dissolves. But the structure of vasanas is still there -- just not a tight or binding grip. More translucent. Social self is still there. Just not hung up in oneself as before, no one or thing to get insulted, or to get mad and angry (as in losing it -- though certainly displeasure might still be shown). Thus an experience of social self, same characteristics, but being loser, freer, playful, very flexibible, etc. ^ In other words, you will no longer lose it, due to being (a) loser and very flexibible? I think I ought to start marketing those flexibibles; sounds profitable! ;) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 10, 2006, at 4:13 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 10, 2006, at 3:43 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 10, 2006, at 3:33 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: Use of the term the non-dual state, in this context, appears odd to me. Maintaining pure awareness while holding a thought, consciousness glowing within itself -- akin to a developing yet not complete TMO CC state -- appears to be what you are referring to. The PC along with the thought is enough to disolve the vasana at the root of the repeated thought pattern. No this is not what I am referring to. The Sanskrit word would be vidya, short for brahma-vidya or rigpa in Tibetan. OK. Thanks. But it appears that the atma-vidya -- having pure awareness along with thoughts -- can unknot some knots. But the deepest knots require brama-vidya. Parallel to releasing vasanas on physical plane, compared to those on astral and causal planes -- per yogananda model of things. Still, there is the question: if brama-vidya unknots the deepst of knots, won't that state tend to also prevent new knots. Along lines of a stick through water sort of thing? It might depend on how well you could rest in the Natural State and how good your integration is. Well since at that point, it is ALL Brahman (NOT) acting withn Brahman, I assume it would be perfect integration. That would not be my assumption. It was more of a :) comment Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: One of the characteristics of resting the mind in the Natural, non- dual State is that thoughts will not repeat themselves in samsaric chains--they self-liberate of and by themselves, like a snake untying itself from a knot. The nice thing is, if we can experience thought from the perspective of this unified state, the pattern that causes them to arise repeatedly is immediately cut...for good...unless we recreate the same conditions that put them there in the first place... Use of the term the non-dual state, in this context, appears odd to me. Maintaining pure awareness while holding a thought, consciousness glowing within itself -- akin to a developing yet not complete TMO CC state -- appears to be what you are referring to. The PC along with the thought is enough to disolve the vasana at the root of the repeated thought pattern. Yet CC, or CC type of states, are the essence of duality. It is the realization of Atman. Atman being seperate from all of this -- the world of change. And yet this so-called but erroneously termed non-dual state seems to be the foucs of some neo-advaitans and satsangians -- that this dual state is the end of the veda, a uphanishadic realization of the ultimate reality. The advaita of the shankaracharian traditions is true non-duality: the realization -- more than understanding -- the total groking that Atman is Brahman. That this inner consciousness glowing within itself, Atman, is also all of that -- all of (what appears to be) the changing phenomenal world. That is the non-dual state. Not a CC type experience. Which is why MMY sometimes refers to CC as glorified ignorance. It is the realization that Atman is Brahman Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That there are apparent contradictions as consciousness unfolds, does not imply that ALL contradictory statements are valid or enlightened. Doublespeak, masquerading as rational or superior insights, is the tool of charlatans and political repression. It is manifestation the orwellian vison of 1984. A clear, finely tuned intellect is necessary for realization and appreciation of higher states. Muddled thinking, gross and over reaching generalizations, are not a sign of higher states, but of bondage and ignorance. Thanks for this. I haven't had such a good laugh in days. I dunno... maybe my thinking is muddled, but Akashanon's comment didn't strike me as the least bit funny. Yesterday, while alone on a trip to Iowa City, the sentence, A clear, finely tuned intellect is necessary for realization and appreciation of higher states. was in the back of my mind all day. And judging by my recent experience, I disagree. I can see how a finely tuned intellect would be useful for more accurately conveying in language the experience of non-dual awareness, but for me, at least, the real appreciation has been on the level of heart. Trying to analyze it intellectually is only mildly interesting and somewhat frustrating; but, just innocently being aware of the awareness is like bathing in love. Alex I think the word necessary was too strong. Though I think MMY in the Gita goes that far in saying that. Anyone have those quotes handy? Quite useful is perhaps a better restatement. Trying to analyze it intellectually is not away to realize IT. Many people get confused on this point. The intellect does realize IT via a forward analytical process, but but a reverse process of elimination. Like The Dog that Did Not Bark. A refined and sharp intellect can clearly discern what is NOT IT. Via a neti neti process, false premises of IT fall away. Utimately, the intellect is able to discern between iteslf and IT (Purusha). This is a beautifully inverted and hyper-concise sort of sutra, that becomes clear when it happens. There is more to it. Through discrimination (and a growing clarity of IT being aware of ITself), the intellect realizes, (in an Eureka like moment), that the intellect is not the doer. Up to that point, via neti neti, common sense and reasoning, its clear that the doer, (the individual self) is not the body, and its not the cognitive/conceptual mind. Realization that the doer is not the intellect, or more precisely that the intellect is not a doer, is like a sword being pulled out of stone and used to cut away the last ropes holding one imprisoned. At that point its clear what the intellect is not, and what simply IS. The intellect which was thought, felt, held to be the core, is found not to be the core, and IT is realized to be the CORE. It is this realization of what the Core is, is what the intellect can do well. It can realize the distiction between buddhi (intellect) and Purusha. On the surface, the words as they are in the sutras, do not sound profound, but rather obvious (as in who would ever mistake the intellect which is active and discriminating with wholenss that is silence?) . Its when its realized that the real meaning of the sutra that the sutra's profoundness unfolds. Its a realization that the core is not the intellect, and what remains is the CORE. And the intellect clearly realizes it is different from the CORE. What remains --- the fruits of the intellects ability to sharply discern what is NOT --- is the CORE. Thanks for taking the time to respond. I'm afraid, a lot of that went right over my head, but that's ok: there isn't much going on up there anyway. Alex Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
I hadn't ever really understood -- or thought about -- why the intellect needs to be sharp to realize enlightenment. Or if I did, I forgot what I knew. So the explanation below was interesting. Thanks. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That there are apparent contradictions as consciousness unfolds, does not imply that ALL contradictory statements are valid or enlightened. Doublespeak, masquerading as rational or superior insights, is the tool of charlatans and political repression. It is manifestation the orwellian vison of 1984. A clear, finely tuned intellect is necessary for realization and appreciation of higher states. Muddled thinking, gross and over reaching generalizations, are not a sign of higher states, but of bondage and ignorance. Thanks for this. I haven't had such a good laugh in days. I dunno... maybe my thinking is muddled, but Akashanon's comment didn't strike me as the least bit funny. Yesterday, while alone on a trip to Iowa City, the sentence, A clear, finely tuned intellect is necessary for realization and appreciation of higher states. was in the back of my mind all day. And judging by my recent experience, I disagree. I can see how a finely tuned intellect would be useful for more accurately conveying in language the experience of non-dual awareness, but for me, at least, the real appreciation has been on the level of heart. Trying to analyze it intellectually is only mildly interesting and somewhat frustrating; but, just innocently being aware of the awareness is like bathing in love. Alex I think the word necessary was too strong. Though I think MMY in the Gita goes that far in saying that. Anyone have those quotes handy? Quite useful is perhaps a better restatement. Trying to analyze it intellectually is not away to realize IT. Many people get confused on this point. The intellect does realize IT via a forward analytical process, but but a reverse process of elimination. Like The Dog that Did Not Bark. A refined and sharp intellect can clearly discern what is NOT IT. Via a neti neti process, false premises of IT fall away. Utimately, the intellect is able to discern between iteslf and IT (Purusha). This is a beautifully inverted and hyper-concise sort of sutra, that becomes clear when it happens. There is more to it. Through discrimination (and a growing clarity of IT being aware of ITself), the intellect realizes, (in an Eureka like moment), that the intellect is not the doer. Up to that point, via neti neti, common sense and reasoning, its clear that the doer, (the individual self) is not the body, and its not the cognitive/conceptual mind. Realization that the doer is not the intellect, or more precisely that the intellect is not a doer, is like a sword being pulled out of stone and used to cut away the last ropes holding one imprisoned. At that point its clear what the intellect is not, and what simply IS. The intellect which was thought, felt, held to be the core, is found not to be the core, and IT is realized to be the CORE. It is this realization of what the Core is, is what the intellect can do well. It can realize the distiction between buddhi (intellect) and Purusha. On the surface, the words as they are in the sutras, do not sound profound, but rather obvious (as in who would ever mistake the intellect which is active and discriminating with wholenss that is silence?) . Its when its realized that the real meaning of the sutra that the sutra's profoundness unfolds. Its a realization that the core is not the intellect, and what remains is the CORE. And the intellect clearly realizes it is different from the CORE. What remains --- the fruits of the intellects ability to sharply discern what is NOT --- is the CORE. Thanks for taking the time to respond. I'm afraid, a lot of that went right over my head, but that's ok: there isn't much going on up there anyway. Alex Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to:
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hadn't ever really understood -- or thought about -- why the intellect needs to be sharp to realize enlightenment. Or if I did, I forgot what I knew. So the explanation below was interesting. Thanks. Yeah, it is a cool thing to observe. Just like the state of Arjuna in El Gita; full heart along with fully developed intellect. Both are necessary, with the perception tuned like a laser or a diamond, in order for us to let go and fall into the Ocean. Otherwise, if our intellect is not cultured to be razor sharp and our heart not tuned to the subtlest vibration, then we will doubt ourselves along the way to Infinity, caught once again in the snarl of our own delusion. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey, I just hopped on after watching the Giants getting there asses handed to them.Guess I'll have to see what this is all about. The game would have been more interesting. Today's discussion seems to be about people whining because the descriptions they've heard of enlightenment are contradictory and confuse them. They're hoping for a simplistic answer for simple minds like the ones they're used to from TM. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, double talk is just double talk, a hoax is just a hoax, absurdity is just absurdity. And a latte is just a latte--case closed. Not at the TM cafe. If you pay your $2500 in advance, not only is your daily latte free, but each cup is guaranteed to be full to the brim with bubbling Brahman. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What was your favorite saying again Jim? Oh yes. The world is as we are. Nice saying Nice saying?...and you wrote recently: This is not a problem of semantics, nuance and poetic differences. The four statments together are a farce. Its either absurd or insane. Its not mystical insight, spiritual paradox, or poetic license. Its double speak pusshing its own limits. Doublespeak pushing its own limits. That's actually a nice description of the nature of existence. Those who seek enlightenment hoping for an end to contradictions are in for a nasty surprise. Or a pleasant one, depending on who they are. The world, after all, is as we are. Those who are willing to deal with Life As It Is will find in enlightenment a nice place to live. Those who are seeking simple answers and a resolution to contra- diction will probably keep seeking long after the answer has made itself obvious to them. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What was your favorite saying again Jim? Oh yes. The world is as we are. Nice saying Nice saying?...and you wrote recently: This is not a problem of semantics, nuance and poetic differences. The four statments together are a farce. Its either absurd or insane. Its not mystical insight, spiritual paradox, or poetic license. Its double speak pusshing its own limits. Doublespeak pushing its own limits. That's actually a nice description of the nature of existence. Those who seek enlightenment hoping for an end to contradictions are in for a nasty surprise. Or a pleasant one, depending on who they are. The world, after all, is as we are. Those who are willing to deal with Life As It Is will find in enlightenment a nice place to live. Those who are seeking simple answers and a resolution to contra- diction will probably keep seeking long after the answer has made itself obvious to them. :-) All nice platitides, but not relevant to the above quote. That there are apparent contradictions as consciousness unfolds, does not imply that ALL contradictory statements are valid or enlightened. Doublespeak, masquerading as rational or superior insights, is the tool of charlatans and political repression. It is manifestation the orwellian vison of 1984. A clear, finely tuned intellect is necessary for realization and appreciation of higher states. Muddled thinking, gross and over reaching generalizations, are not a sign of higher states, but of bondage and ignorance. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey, I just hopped on after watching the Giants getting there asses handed to them.Guess I'll have to see what this is all about. The game would have been more interesting. Today's discussion seems to be about people whining because the descriptions they've heard of enlightenment are contradictory and confuse them. They're hoping for a simplistic answer for simple minds like the ones they're used to from TM. :-) Usually people who have something to contribute towards a discussion do so. Those that don't but feel a sense of disagreement -- often unspecified and unarticulated -- simply attack the poster. I think its called an ad hominem logical fallacy. Its akin to saying I give up, I have nothing intelligent to say or to contribute. But I feel compelled to lash out at this thing that makes me uncomfortable. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- mrfishey2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: HAHAHAHA. Peter, the ever extending audacity of your doublespeak, and that of your pals, never ceases to amaze me. There absolutely is no ego in E., but there is an ego in E. ... la de dah. I said that? I don't think so. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: HAHAHAHA. Peter, the ever extending audacity of your doublespeak, and that of your pals, never ceases to amaze me. There absolutely is no ego in E., but there is an ego in E. ... la de dah. I said that? I don't think so. -- The post you responded to yesterday 84544 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/84544 was in response to a prior post where I pointed out unenlightened contradictions, in various statements made by the five self-proclaimed enlightened on FFL. That text is highlighted at the end of this post as: = Original text Peter is Responding To == And it is summarized in the following four points. The specific point at hand are Peter's often repeated claims (#1) that: 1) Peter: There is absolutley no ego or sense of individuality in enlightenment and anyone who cliams there is is not enlightened. 2) Other self-proclaimed enlightened ones: There is an ego in enlightenemt and anyone who says that there is not is insane. 3) Peter (recently): All of this is all consistent, this is just the impact of THAT on different minds. 4) Peter: And the fact that there is some personal and individual part of me that still feels insulted and gets angry at percieved slights is totally consistent with point #1. You responded by saying: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/message/84544 Well, Anon, the only solution is to get enlightened and join the fun. But in all seriousness, the difference in expressions and attitudes regarding enlightenment are just the impact of That on different mind-streams (if I may borrow a Gangaji term). It's why there is no one spiritual tradition. There is never going to be total intellectual agreement regarding That, although That is the same for all. This 20 point list is just the concern of a particular mind on the impact of That on his/her mind. - In this response you make the argument, via reference to my post, that the directly contradictory statements about the existence of ego in enlightenemnt (there is an ego vs. there is no ego) is explaned away by difference in expressions and attitudes regarding enlightenment are just the impact of That on different mind-streams. You have argued repeatedly and vigorously in the past, that the universally applicable definition of enlightenemnt is characterized by the sole criteria that there is absolutely no trace of ego in enlightement. And that this is your personal experience. And that if anyone is experiencing ego, they are not enlightened. Given how emphatic your past statemenys have been per the above themed, to then state, paraphrasing well, some may experience an ego, some may not, its all good, its all enlightenemnt, its just the impact of That on different 'mind-streams' -- is such a contradiction or complete reversal of position that it is laughable. = Original text Peter is Responding To == --- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Skunk button pushing comments snipped for brevity. Comment below Alex writes: Is it your belief that an enlightened person no longer has an ego or conditioned mind? Akasha/Anon writes: I think the term enlightenment is a label, that serves little positive purpose -- and its use has many downsides. Its quite clear that various people define the term in quite different ways -- those from different traditions and even those proclaiming to be living the label. Just today's post illustrates such. Both Jim and Peter claim enlightenment and yet quite sharply disagree on the 20 point list of attributes posted yesterday. Another example of the self-proclaimed enlightened and various traditions not agreeing on what the term refers to is your question about ego. Your premise, it appears is that there is a ego in enlightenment. Peter vigorously and abundantly disagrees -- stated emphatically that he has searched everywhere no ego can be found -- and it is on this single criteria that he claims enlightenment. (Though ironically, thre is some individuality in the peter-sphere that regularly feels insulted. And also which gets bent out of shape and lashes out in anger.) And M Godman, who also claims enlightenment, states emphatically, and with even more words than Peter, that there indeed is an ego in enlightenment, but it no longer rules like it does pre-enlightnment -- it becomes subordinate to the Self. Jim, who claims the same enlightenemnt claims anyone who thinks there is no ego in enlightenment is insane. And I assume, corrections welcome, that the premise of your question stems from the view of Waking Down that there is an ego (and conditioned mind) in enlightnement. Rory, who claims enlightenment, has even gone as far as to say that he simple made
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That there are apparent contradictions as consciousness unfolds, does not imply that ALL contradictory statements are valid or enlightened. Doublespeak, masquerading as rational or superior insights, is the tool of charlatans and political repression. It is manifestation the orwellian vison of 1984. A clear, finely tuned intellect is necessary for realization and appreciation of higher states. Muddled thinking, gross and over reaching generalizations, are not a sign of higher states, but of bondage and ignorance. Thanks for this. I haven't had such a good laugh in days. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That there are apparent contradictions as consciousness unfolds, does not imply that ALL contradictory statements are valid or enlightened. Doublespeak, masquerading as rational or superior insights, is the tool of charlatans and political repression. It is manifestation the orwellian vison of 1984. A clear, finely tuned intellect is necessary for realization and appreciation of higher states. Muddled thinking, gross and over reaching generalizations, are not a sign of higher states, but of bondage and ignorance. Thanks for this. I haven't had such a good laugh in days. Usually people who have something to contribute towards a discussion do so. Those that don't but feel a sense of disagreement -- often unspecified and unarticulated -- simply attack the poster. I think its called an ad hominem logical fallacy. Its akin to saying I give up, I have nothing intelligent to say or to contribute. But I feel compelled to lash out at this thing that makes me uncomfortable. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for this. I haven't had such a good laugh in days. Usually people who have something to contribute towards a discussion do so. Those that don't but feel a sense of disagreement -- often unspecified and unarticulated -- simply attack the poster. Dude, if you think that was an attack, you really need to get out more. I was being serious; your post made me laugh out loud. Since it did, you are probably correct that I wouldn't have much to contribute to a conversation in which such things are said seriously. Carry on. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for this. I haven't had such a good laugh in days. Usually people who have something to contribute towards a discussion do so. Those that don't but feel a sense of disagreement -- often unspecified and unarticulated -- simply attack the poster. Dude, if you think that was an attack, you really need to get out more. I was being serious; your post made me laugh out loud. Since it did, you are probably correct that I wouldn't have much to contribute to a conversation in which such things are said seriously. Carry on. Ok cool. I misinterpreted what you said. It happens in text sometimes. I was (mis)perceiving a snideness in your tone. Basesd on some of yur past posts. A bad habit to fall into (assumng tone of current posts based on past ones.) Thanks for correcting me. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [Big Snip] Usually people who have something to contribute towards a discussion do so. Those that don't but feel a sense of disagreement -- often unspecified and unarticulated -- simply attack the poster. I think its called an ad hominem logical fallacy. Its akin to saying I give up, I have nothing intelligent to say or to contribute. But I feel compelled to lash out at this thing that makes me uncomfortable. Thanks for once again pasting this paragraph into one of your posts (A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds). You, of course, do not have a little mind. I just can't tell this from these particular words. I misinterpret their tone after seeing them crop up several times in the course of a day or so. Are we to consider you a reasonable man (or woman?) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for this. I haven't had such a good laugh in days. Usually people who have something to contribute towards a discussion do so. Those that don't but feel a sense of disagreement -- often unspecified and unarticulated -- simply attack the poster. Dude, if you think that was an attack, you really need to get out more. I was being serious; your post made me laugh out loud. Says Barry, reiterating the attack in case anybody didn't get it the first time. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What was your favorite saying again Jim? Oh yes. The world is as we are. Nice saying Nice saying?...and you wrote recently: This is not a problem of semantics, nuance and poetic differences. The four statments together are a farce. Its either absurd or insane. Its not mystical insight, spiritual paradox, or poetic license. Its double speak pusshing its own limits. Doublespeak pushing its own limits. That's actually a nice description of the nature of existence. Those who seek enlightenment hoping for an end to contradictions are in for a nasty surprise. Or a pleasant one, depending on who they are. The world, after all, is as we are. Those who are willing to deal with Life As It Is will find in enlightenment a nice place to live. Those who are seeking simple answers and a resolution to contra- diction will probably keep seeking long after the answer has made itself obvious to them. :-) All nice platitides, but not relevant to the above quote. That there are apparent contradictions as consciousness unfolds, does not imply that ALL contradictory statements are valid or enlightened. Doublespeak, masquerading as rational or superior insights, is the tool of charlatans and political repression. It is manifestation the orwellian vison of 1984. A clear, finely tuned intellect is necessary for realization and appreciation of higher states. Muddled thinking, gross and over reaching generalizations, are not a sign of higher states, but of bondage and ignorance. Present over-reaching generalization excepted, of course... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is not a problem of semantics, nuance and poetic differences. The four statments together are a farce. Its either absurd or insane. Its not mystical insight, spiritual paradox, or poetic license. Its double speak pusshing its own limits. Doublespeak pushing its own limits. That's actually a nice description of the nature of existence. Those who seek enlightenment hoping for an end to contradictions are in for a nasty surprise. Or a pleasant one, depending on who they are. The world, after all, is as we are. Those who are willing to deal with Life As It Is will find in enlightenment a nice place to live. Those who are seeking simple answers and a resolution to contra- diction will probably keep seeking long after the answer has made itself obvious to them. :-) All nice platitides, but not relevant to the above quote. That there are apparent contradictions as consciousness unfolds, does not imply that ALL contradictory statements are valid or enlightened. Doublespeak, masquerading as rational or superior insights, is the tool of charlatans and political repression. It is manifestation the orwellian vison of 1984. A clear, finely tuned intellect is necessary for realization and appreciation of higher states. Muddled thinking, gross and over reaching generalizations, are not a sign of higher states, but of bondage and ignorance. Present over-reaching generalization excepted, of course... hahah. yes. of course. And I admit the above idea is not expressed as well as it might be. I will try again, later, and try to be more specific with more substantiation. But, personally, I think it is an important theme / concept. Loose thinking sinks ships. :) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
A Female Lama, named Khandro Rinpoche is coming to Norway teaching in Tibetanian Buddhism. Does someone know something about her? Ingegerd --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, coshlnx [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --You could be a Nichiren Shoshu Buddhist, without knowing it. This is a desire oriented form of Buddhism, 180deg. in contrast to most traditional sects of Buddhism which have a stern condemnation of attempting to fulfill selfish desires. In Nichiren's Buddhism, the energy latent in all people (ALL physically embodied people) can be used as fuel for the attainment (since this is a progressive path) of Enlightenment, by attaching one's desire to the particular mantra (Nam Myoho Renge Kyo). Eventually, the chanting of the mantra coupled with the intent to fulfill desires results in one or more alternative outcomes:, such as... 1. The desire is Adharmic, in which case it will eventually self- destruct. 2. The desire will be transformed into a different desire. 3. The desire may be fulfilled or not fulfilled,; but regardless of many possible outcomes, the result, given time is: HENDOKU IYAKU, which means changing poison into medicine. The poison exists as the pain of having not fulfilled one's desire, or the suffering of some known or unknown cause. In due course of one's attempt to avoid pain and embrace pleasure, the idea is to transform one's desires from base heavy metals (lead, mercury), into pure gold and the elixir of Soma. I chanted Nam Myoho Renge Knyo for 20 years with great benefit but now I chant the first verse of the Surangama Sutra. (The Surangama Sutra text is shown on the website Vaj menationed - text written by Hsuan Hua. He was my first Buddhist Guru during the 70's. (ate lunch with him on a number of occasions...very humble fellow. To eat lunch with MMY I'd have to fork over a mil. at least). PS: Nichiren Buddhists spend little time speculating on the nature of Enlightenment, but spend more time attempting to fulfill concrete desires right on our dinner plate. These are the stepping stones to Enlightenment, which will take care of itself in the due course of time, PS 2(along with TM of course). I doubt that Vaj's Guru Norbu Rinpoche has any individual technique which can compare with the effectiveness of TM. I'll probably get an e mail on that. He's quick to criticize TM, but whenever I even mention Norbu Rinpoche vaj sends me an e mail. Fine...I like to hear from fellow Buddhists. FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 7, 2006, at 4:38 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: My sense of the vasanas are the tight grip of residue and structure of conditionings and experiences that make I appear to be the body or mind or intellect. When that grip lossens, then that false sense of I dissolves. But the structure of vasanas is still there -- just not a tight or binding grip. More translucent. Social self is still there. Just not hung up in oneself as before, no one or thing to get insulted, or to get mad and angry (as in losing it -- though certainly displeasure might still be shown). Thus an experience of social self, same characteristics, but being loser, freer, playful, very flexibible, etc. And some vasanas -- while more loose and translucent, may be human liver and fava bean oriented. Its my experience that mind / intellect continue to react, process, learn, and digest old habits and patterns, just as when vasannas were tighter. But now faster, with everything flowing more loosely, flexibly playfully. And I sense vasanas can and do get more radically transformed as jiva mukti flows in to veheda mukti (spelling ?) As IT is seen to be all there is. Hey, it's easier to lose them during the dark night of the soul doncha know? Wait till he finds out it's actually not Vedic to do that...man will those vasanas be pissed! And of course the universal black-hole of the soul is exponentially worse. Just because you left your vasanas at the Otumwa mall, doesn't make it good. Just wait. I always make certain my vasana-kshaya is 100% Vedic. Sure they have to sacrifice a goat, but dude, they do it in India... I've never had much interest in all that Vedic, Yogic, Brahman, Hiranyagarba, etc. Eastern esoterica, so if the space I've arrived in is not Vedicly kosher, I won't lose so much as one microsecond of sleep over it. Alex Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
On Jan 7, 2006, at 4:38 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:
And I sense vasanas can and do get more radically transformed as
jiva
mukti flows in to veheda
I guess videha (vi-deha) mukti (~we-day-huh mooktee)
vi (prob. for an original %{dvi} , meaning ` in two parts ' ; and
opp. to %{sam} q.v.) apart , asunder , in different directions , to
and fro , about , away , away from , off , without RV. c. c. In RV.
it appears also as a prep. with acc. denoting ` through ' or `
between ' (with ellipse of the verb e.g. i , 181 , 5 ; x , 86 , 20
c.) It is esp. used as a prefix to verbs or nouns and other parts of
speech derived from verbs , to express ` division ' , `
distinction ' , ` distribution ' , ` arrangement ' , `
order ' , ` opposition ' , or ` deliberation '
deha m. n. body, person,
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--
Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing
http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM
~-
To subscribe, send a message to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Or go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
and click 'Join This Group!'
Yahoo! Groups Links
* To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
* To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
* Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've never had much interest in all that Vedic, Yogic, Brahman, Hiranyagarba, etc. Eastern esoterica, so if the space I've arrived in is not Vedicly kosher, I won't lose so much as one microsecond of Amen, bro. I *never* had any attraction to any of that stuff; made it difficult to exist in a movement where people were so enamored of it. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 7, 2006, at 6:30 PM, Alex Stanley wrote: I've never had much interest in all that Vedic, Yogic, Brahman, Hiranyagarba, etc. Eastern esoterica, so if the space I've arrived in is not Vedicly kosher, I won't lose so much as one microsecond of sleep over it. The inner/outer states don't have any brand names, schools or traditions at all so why worry about it? Really. Makes sense. But that doesn't change that what might have stated you was x. Ok, I've read this sentence over and over, and I have no idea what you're trying to say. Can you clarify? Alex Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
On Jan 8, 2006, at 7:06 AM, Alex Stanley wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 7, 2006, at 6:30 PM, Alex Stanley wrote: I've never had much interest in all that Vedic, Yogic, Brahman, Hiranyagarba, etc. Eastern esoterica, so if the space I've arrived in is not Vedicly kosher, I won't lose so much as one microsecond of sleep over it. The inner/outer states don't have any brand names, schools or traditions at all so why worry about it? Really. Makes sense. But that doesn't change that what might have stated you was "x". Ok, I've read this sentence over and over, and I have no idea what you're trying to say. Can you clarify? You started on a path that helped you get where you are now. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, Anon, the only solution is to get enlightened and join the fun. For some reason, when I read this I heard the Kingston Trio singing in the background: I see by your outfit that you are enlightened You see my my outfit that I'm enlightened, too Get yourself an outfit And be enlightened, too. :-) But in all seriousness, the difference in expressions and attitudes regarding enlightenment are just the impact of That on different mind-streams (if I may borrow a Gangaji term). It's why there is no one spiritual tradition. There is never going to be total intellectual agreement regarding That, although That is the same for all. This 20 point list is just the concern of a particular mind on the impact of That on his/her mind. Yup. But I liked that mind's emphasis on being funny. Funny is good. :-) --- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Skunk button pushing comments snipped for brevity. Comment below Alex writes: Is it your belief that an enlightened person no longer has an ego or conditioned mind? Akasha/Anon writes: I think the term enlightenment is a label, that serves little positive purpose -- and its use has many downsides. Its quite clear that various people define the term in quite different ways -- those from different traditions and even those proclaiming to be living the label. Just today's post illustrates such. Both Jim and Peter claim enlightenment and yet quite sharply disagree on the 20 point list of attributes posted yesterday. Another example of the self-proclaimed enlightened and various traditions not agreeing on what the term refers to is your question about ego. Your premise, it appears is that there is a ego in enlightenment. Peter vigorously and abundantly disagrees -- stated emphatically that he has searched everywhere no ego can be found -- and it is on this single criteria that he claims enlightenment. (Though ironically, thre is some individuality in the peter-sphere that regularly feels insulted. And also which gets bent out of shape and lashes out in anger.) And M Godman, who also claims enlightenment, states emphatically, and with even more words than Peter, that there indeed is an ego in enlightenment, but it no longer rules like it does pre-enlightnment -- it becomes subordinate to the Self. Jim, who claims the same enlightenemnt claims anyone who thinks there is no ego in enlightenment is insane. And I assume, corrections welcome, that the premise of your question stems from the view of Waking Down that there is an ego (and conditioned mind) in enlightnement. Rory, who claims enlightenment, has even gone as far as to say that he simple made up his own criteria for enlightenement, then realized that whcih he defined, and then started using the title enlightenment -- even though his definition was his own and neither a traditional one nor the TMO one. And Tom T, who claims enlightenment, says there are milions of diferent types of enlightenemnt, or flavors as he calls them. Further Peter, again -- just today -- refers to cc as baby realization or baby enlightenment. Yet, if you refer to the archives, you will find a post from Tom where he ranted on and on (IMO) in a long post why calling cc as baby anything was paraphrasing, stupid, insane and agenda laden. Off cites MMY recently as saying enlightenment is 24 hour bliss. Peter, greatly discounts bliss, repeatedly stating that bliss is dumb. My own experience of bliss-saturated states in activity is that anger, ego-driven activities, and glomminess (a fairly regular quality of Tom's posts) cannot be found -- and are found impossible to arise. Whatever that state is, and/or MMY's 24-hour bliss enlightenment, clearly they have little to do with Peter's and Tom's experience with whatever they experience and label as enlightenment (experience used in broad sense of ' experiencing a state of consciousness' not like 'I experience the flower'). So hopefully you share some the the difficulty I have with the use of the label enlightenment. And also the phenomenon of self-proclamation of self-defined enlightenment. My original comments, abve, on Tom's post are part of my periodic laughter at the ironies, paradoxes and/or inconsistencies sxpressed by so-called self-proclaimed enlightened. Tom proclaims that it is solely Brahman who seees through Tom's eyes and types throuhg Tom's fingers. So when Tom regularly lasses out in (IMO) appears as gloom, anger, and silly reasoning, it makes me laugh. Similar to my laughter when Peter claims absolutely no ego exists yet feels deeply insulted at times. And my laughter at the band of self-proclaimed
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, Anon, the only solution is to get enlightened and join the fun. But in all seriousness, the difference in expressions and attitudes regarding enlightenment are just the impact of That on different mind-streams (if I may borrow a Gangaji term). It's why there is no one spiritual tradition. There is never going to be total intellectual agreement regarding That, although That is the same for all. This 20 point list is just the concern of a particular mind on the impact of That on his/her mind. just the impact of That on different mind-streams Gangaji Ð yes, I stood next to this person once in a museum. We were both admiring a recent Cezanne acquisition at the Met. I made mention of the delicate treatment of light and form; how the artist managed a rare veneration and respect for each object. I remember Gangaji saying, itÕs just oil paint. - Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
HAHAHAHA. Peter, the ever extending audacity of your doublespeak, and that of your pals, never ceases to amaze me. There absolutely is no ego in E., but there is an ego in E. ... la de dah. Its a technique of cults to ask memebers to acccpt as true bigger and bigger lies and inconsistencies. After a while, the cult members rational faculties are so weak or suspended, the cult leaders can suggest anything and the cultists accept it -- without question. Kool-aid anyone? (Following are paraphrased complilations of past proclamations of Peter. ) Peter: In enlightenment there is absolutely no sense of indiviuality or ego. It is the sole and defining characteristic of enlightenment. And anyone who says so is not yet enlightened. Man 2: Well I am enlightened and I have a sense of ego. Peter: Yes, you must be enlightened. Its just impact of That on different mind-streams that makes me say the above. My view is totally consistent with your reasonable and clearly true view. Man 3: Yes, its the paradox of Brahman. Peter: But I do get so damn insulted and so very personally pissed off when people try to point out contradictions in the above. Man 4: Peter, if there is absolutely no sense individuality, what or who is feeling insulted and feeilng anger? Peter: Fuck you, you asshole! You just NEVER will get it because you are so unevolved. You waking state moron! Man 5: God created the earth 5000 years ago, and planted dinasaur bones just to test our faith. Man 3: Yes, its the paradox of Brahman. Man 5: An inventor says he has invented a perpetual motion machine, and wants me to invest all my money. But science says thats impossible. What should I do? Man 3: Its the paradox of Brahman. Its a sign from Brahman. Invest my son. Invest. Man 6: 20 years ago I joined this great individual / social transformation group, and devoted my life to it, and instead of getting smarter, healthier, more social or creating world peace, the organization became a really wierd cult that wants all my money, while I can't even pay my bills. Man 3: Its the paradox of Brahman. Drink the cool-aid, Luke. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter wrote: Well, Anon, the only solution is to get enlightened and join the fun. But in all seriousness, the difference in expressions and attitudes regarding enlightenment are just the impact of That on different mind-streams (if I may borrow a Gangaji term). It's why there is no one spiritual tradition. There is never going to be total intellectual agreement regarding That, although That is the same for all. This 20 point list is just the concern of a particular mind on the impact of That on his/her mind. --- tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Skunk button pushing comments snipped for brevity. Comment below Alex writes: Is it your belief that an enlightened person no longer has an ego or conditioned mind? Akasha/Anon writes: I think the term enlightenment is a label, that serves little positive purpose -- and its use has many downsides. Its quite clear that various people define the term in quite different ways -- those from different traditions and even those proclaiming to be living the label. Just today's post illustrates such. Both Jim and Peter claim enlightenment and yet quite sharply disagree on the 20 point list of attributes posted yesterday. Another example of the self-proclaimed enlightened and various traditions not agreeing on what the term refers to is your question about ego. Your premise, it appears is that there is a ego in enlightenment. Peter vigorously and abundantly disagrees -- stated emphatically that he has searched everywhere no ego can be found -- and it is on this single criteria that he claims enlightenment. (Though ironically, thre is some individuality in the peter-sphere that regularly feels insulted. And also which gets bent out of shape and lashes out in anger.) And M Godman, who also claims enlightenment, states emphatically, and with even more words than Peter, that there indeed is an ego in enlightenment, but it no longer rules like it does pre-enlightnment -- it becomes subordinate to the Self. Jim, who claims the same enlightenemnt claims anyone who thinks there is no ego in enlightenment is insane. And I assume, corrections welcome, that the premise of your question stems from the view of Waking Down that there is an ego (and conditioned mind) in enlightnement. Rory, who claims enlightenment, has even gone as far as to say that he simple made up his own criteria for enlightenement, then realized that whcih he defined, and then started using the title enlightenment -- even though his definition was his own and neither a traditional one nor the TMO one. And Tom T, who claims enlightenment, says there are milions of diferent types
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, Anon, the only solution is to get enlightened and join the fun. But in all seriousness, the difference in expressions and attitudes regarding enlightenment are just the impact of That on different mind-streams (if I may borrow a Gangaji term). It's why there is no one spiritual tradition. There is never going to be total intellectual agreement regarding That, although That is the same for all. The reason there isn't intellectual agreement, it would seem to me, is that such agreement depends on language. It's sort of like a gathering of poets discussing how to describe a particular tree. Each poet will use words differently in his/her description, because the job of a poet is to convey his/her subjective impressions, not to provide an objective picture as a scientist would. So the poets will never come to intellectual agreement as to how to describe the tree. An enlightened person must of necessity be a poet in describing his/her subjective state because there *is* no way to describe that state objectively. It would be as unlikely for two enlightened people to agree on a description of the enlightened state, even if that state is the same for all, as it would be for two poets to agree on a description of the tree. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: HAHAHAHA. Peter, the ever extending audacity of your doublespeak, and that of your pals, never ceases to amaze me. There absolutely is no ego in E., but there is an ego in E. ... la de dah. Also the mark of gifted psychotherapist Ð one unafraid of igniting the intellectual fire in others. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, Anon, the only solution is to get enlightened and join the fun. But in all seriousness, the difference in expressions and attitudes regarding enlightenment are just the impact of That on different mind-streams (if I may borrow a Gangaji term). It's why there is no one spiritual tradition. There is never going to be total intellectual agreement regarding That, although That is the same for all. The reason there isn't intellectual agreement, it would seem to me, is that such agreement depends on language. It's sort of like a gathering of poets discussing how to describe a particular tree. Each poet will use words differently in his/her description, because the job of a poet is to convey his/her subjective impressions, not to provide an objective picture as a scientist would. So the poets will never come to intellectual agreement as to how to describe the tree. An enlightened person must of necessity be a poet in describing his/her subjective state because there *is* no way to describe that state objectively. It would be as unlikely for two enlightened people to agree on a description of the enlightened state, even if that state is the same for all, as it would be for two poets to agree on a description of the tree. Judy, I agree with you in the abstract. In the past, I have even used the same analogy of poets (or was it artists) describing the same thing. But in the specifics of this particular discussion, the poetic analogy does not hold up. We are not talking about various nuances or impressions. We are talking about emphatic, absolute statements that are in clear contradiction. And while some may try to pawn that off as the paradox of Brahman, I suggest such ploys are a head in the sands of absurdity. The specific point at hand are Peter's often repeated claims (#1) that: 1) Peter: There is absolutley no ego or sense of individuality in enlightenment and anyone who cliams there is is not enlightened. 2) Other self-proclaimed enlightened ones: There is an ego in enlightenemt and anyone who says that there is not is insane. 3) Peter (recently): All of this is all consistent, this is just the impact of THAT on different minds. 4) Peter: And the fact that there is some personal and individual part of me that still feels insulted and gets angry at percieved slights is totally consistent with point #1. This is not a problem of semantics, nuance and poetic differences. The four statments together are a farce. Its either absurd or insane. Its not mystical insight, spiritual paradox, or poetic license. Its double speak pusshing its own limits. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
On Jan 8, 2006, at 1:31 PM, authfriend wrote:But when the person says there is no ego in enlightenment, perhaps they are speaking of the Self, what they now identify with. The trick is to make it clear which--self or Self--is the referent in a particular statement. If it's not made clear, confusion and apparent contradiction may result. Ken Wilber will use self, small "s" and Self, capital "S" or "ego" for ahamkara, and Transcendental Ego for Self or Atman. Also "ego" and "Ego". Nice way to make the distinction in English.Of course that's only if you believe or experience that there is an Atman To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But in the specifics of this particular discussion, the poetic analogy does not hold up. We are not talking about various nuances or impressions. We are talking about emphatic, absolute statements that are in clear contradiction. The *statements*--the words--appear to be in clear contradiction, but that may simply be a function of trying to nail down in words a state that transcends words. That two people use different words to describe the state does not necessarily mean that the state they're describing is inherently different in each of them. Again, I agree in the abstract, but not with the specifics of this discussion: 1) There absolutely is not ego and anyone who finds such is not enlightened 2) There is an ego in enlightenement (and some have said you are insane if you think there is not.) These are not subtle semantic disagreements, not a stumbling to capture suble nuance. And the tone of each is emphatic. Not I sort of see it like this In the case of statement #1, its a oft repeated, absolutist, emphatatic declaration. Not too much room for ambiguity in its interpretation. It may *be* different, but you can't be sure of that on the basis of the fact that they use different (even apparently contradictory) words to describe it. See above. Peter has a take no prisioners appraoch in his absolutist declarations. He leaves NO doubt that in his view if there is ANY trace of ego, there is NO enlightenemnt. And while some may try to pawn that off as the paradox of Brahman, I suggest such ploys are a head in the sands of absurdity. You might suggest it, but it's possible that it's not the case. Or it may be a matter of laziness, or inability to put things in words more clearly, rather than head-in-the-sand. It may be a type of pretty extreme semantic laziness or slopiness -- build on a house of cards foundation of a very hazy and blind-spot prone interpreation of ones experience. The specific point at hand are Peter's often repeated claims (#1) that: 1) Peter: There is absolutley no ego or sense of individuality in enlightenment and anyone who cliams there is is not enlightened. 2) Other self-proclaimed enlightened ones: There is an ego in enlightenemt and anyone who says that there is not is insane. 3) Peter (recently): All of this is all consistent, this is just the impact of THAT on different minds. 4) Peter: And the fact that there is some personal and individual part of me that still feels insulted and gets angry at percieved slights is totally consistent with point #1. This is not a problem of semantics, nuance and poetic differences. The four statments together are a farce. Its either absurd or insane. Its not mystical insight, spiritual paradox, or poetic license. Its double speak pusshing its own limits. I'm not sure how you can state this with such certainty. Seems to me it could well be a matter of semantics. It could also be a matter of *sloppy* semantics. See above. Its the emphaticness and absolutist thrust of the statements over time that drive my conclusions above. But as I said, I am open to a hypothesis that it is a phenomenon of very sloppy and blind-spot prone interpretation and articulation of 'experiences' Thats one reason I am pressing the point. To help people face the inconsistencies of their claims and help them reconcile them -- either with clearer semantics or reappraisal of what they think they experience. The way MMY explains it, for example, is that enlightenment is a matter of what one identifies with: the self (the ego) or the Self. The self doesn't go away in the state of enlightenment, it's just no longer what one identifies with. But that is NOT how Peter repeated describes his state. He borrows from, or is parallel in expression with, neo-advaitists in declaring forcefully that there is NO trace of ego left. For him, per his experessions, its Not a matter of degree of identifiction with self vs Self. No trace of self, indviduality or ego remains!! is his report. That doesn't mean the person who is enlightened can't speak about what the self is feeling, e.g., insulted. Not in this case. One could say the body is cold. Because there is a body, but one does not identify with it. But an insult referes to the sense of diminishment of ego. if there is no ego, ABSOLUTELY no ego, then how can the sense of ego be diminished? But when the person says there is no ego in enlightenment, perhaps they are speaking of the Self, what they now identify with. That may be the case with some people who say that. Per his often repeated claims, itis NOT what Peter is referring to. The trick is to make it clear which--self or Self--is the referent in a particular statement. If it's
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snippus maximus Same with the person who says there *is* ego in enlightenment; they may be referring to the self rather than the Self but simply not making that distinction clear. It might be if you sat 'em both down and asked them questions that elicited the distinctions, you'd find they were in agreement. Yeah, I said awhile back that there is an ego experienced in enlightenment, and made it clear at the time that the identification shifts from self to Self. This can also be interpreted as the disappearance of the ego, since the identification with the self disappears. Hope this helps. Unfortunately anon/akasha is far too interested in remaining where he is than eliciting any kind of answers. Too bad- makes him a real creepy dude. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Howewer I find no reason to assume as a priori true that Peter is a gifted psychotherapist or that this is his stategy. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, double talk is just double talk, a hoax is just a hoax, absurdity is just absurdity. Your cigar analogy aside, I canÕt imagine what would posses you to create a complilations of past proclamations of something so patently, as you say, absurd. When in the park most who come across an unfortunate hygienic offense simply walk around - anthologies being traditionally reserved for things worthy of consideration. Cataloging waste falls into an entirely different category. You might try contacting the good doctor privately. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snippus maximus Same with the person who says there *is* ego in enlightenment; they may be referring to the self rather than the Self but simply not making that distinction clear. It might be if you sat 'em both down and asked them questions that elicited the distinctions, you'd find they were in agreement. Yeah, I said awhile back that there is an ego experienced in enlightenment, and made it clear at the time that the identification shifts from self to Self. This can also be interpreted as the disappearance of the ego, since the identification with the self disappears. Hope this helps. Unfortunately anon/akasha is far too interested in remaining where he is than eliciting any kind of answers. Too bad- makes him a real creepy dude. What was your favorite saying again Jim? Oh yes. The world is as we are. Nice saying Well, creep on the best you can. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mrfishey2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Howewer I find no reason to assume as a priori true that Peter is a gifted psychotherapist or that this is his stategy. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, double talk is just double talk, a hoax is just a hoax, absurdity is just absurdity. Your cigar analogy aside, I canÕt imagine what would posses you to create a complilations of past proclamations of something so patently, as you say, absurd. When in the park most who come across an unfortunate hygienic offense simply walk around. If it were crap that were just been sold as crap, I would agree and just walk around it. But since attributes of developing consciousness and so-called enlightenment are key points of discussion here, when people infuse such with crap, It think its worthy to say Sir, don't do that. This topic is too important to throw crap at. Crap in this case being weak thinking, weak interprestation of ones experience, weak semantics, deception, slight-of-hand and absurdites pawned off as wisdom. Cataloging waste falls into an entirely different category. The intent is to help raise the level discussion, analysis and understanding of these important topics. I can sympathize with your probable gasping at that claim, hearing you say, perhaps well surely there are better ways to try to do that. I have tried many ways: direct serious discussion, teasing, satire, facrce, banter. Personally, I find most approaches have their limits, but a multiple-front approach hits the target more often than a single approach. And most are a tonic to clarify the mind, a neti-neti exercise in separating the wheat from chaff etc. Unexamined, actually the crap expounded here sometimes looks, mistakenly - from a distance -- like something appealing, like chocolate perhaps. A little neti-neti discrimination is quite useful in avoiding gastronomical disasters. You might try contacting the good doctor privately. I have. Not to much producive use. After an exchange or two, he ineveitably runs off screaming I am so insulted! I will not talk to people who insult me! Of course the so called insults are like pieces of rope that he for some reason sees as snakes. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snippus maximus Same with the person who says there *is* ego in enlightenment; they may be referring to the self rather than the Self but simply not making that distinction clear. It might be if you sat 'em both down and asked them questions that elicited the distinctions, you'd find they were in agreement. Yeah, I said awhile back that there is an ego experienced in enlightenment, and made it clear at the time that the identification shifts from self to Self. This can also be interpreted as the disappearance of the ego, since the identification with the self disappears. Hope this helps. Unfortunately anon/akasha is far too interested in remaining where he is than eliciting any kind of answers. Too bad- makes him a real creepy dude. Usually people who have something to contribute towards a discussion do so. Those that don't but feel a sense of disagreement -- often unspecified and unarticulated -- simply attack the poster. I think its called an ad hominem logical fallacy. Its akin to saying I give up, I have nothing intelligent to say or to contribute. But I feel compelled to lash out at this thing that makes me uncomfortable. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, I said awhile back that there is an ego experienced in enlightenment, and made it clear at the time that the identification shifts from self to Self. This can also be interpreted as the disappearance of the ego, since the identification with the self disappears. Hope this helps. And thats a reasonable perspective. My only point is that that is NOT Peter's oft repeated view. He has forcefully claimed many times that in enlightenement there is NO ego, NO individuality, absolutely NONE, ZIP. Game OVER. His statements leave no room for your position, indentification changes but the ego is still there, just not identified with. He is clear that if there is a sense of ego or individuality, then that 'experience' is NOT enlightenment. Thus my point: Two (aned more) people self-claim enlightenment, define it in different way, and report a different 'experience'. If you don't see whats wrong with this picture, your type of enlightenment, or innate rational skills, are of a very weak form. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, I said awhile back that there is an ego experienced in enlightenment, and made it clear at the time that the identification shifts from self to Self. This can also be interpreted as the disappearance of the ego, since the identification with the self disappears. Hope this helps. And thats a reasonable perspective. My only point is that that is NOT Peter's oft repeated view. He has forcefully claimed many times that in enlightenement there is NO ego, NO individuality, absolutely NONE, ZIP. Game OVER. His statements leave no room for your position, indentification changes but the ego is still there, just not identified with. He is clear that if there is a sense of ego or individuality, then that 'experience' is NOT enlightenment. Thus my point: Two (and more) people self-claim enlightenment, define it in different way, and report a different 'experience' that characterizews their enlightenment. If one doesn't see whats wrong with this picture, then their self-defined, self-proclaimed type of enlightenment, or innate rational skills, are of a very weak form. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip That doesn't mean the person who is enlightened can't speak about what the self is feeling, e.g., insulted. Not in this case. One could say the body is cold. Because there is a body, but one does not identify with it. But an insult referes to the sense of diminishment of ego. if there is no ego, ABSOLUTELY no ego, then how can the sense of ego be diminished? No ego in the Absolute; the ego is in the self. Some supposedly enlightened people *do* use circumlocutions like This body is cold rather than I am cold, but such expressions have always struck me as a bit pretentious. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip That doesn't mean the person who is enlightened can't speak about what the self is feeling, e.g., insulted. Not in this case. One could say the body is cold. Because there is a body, but one does not identify with it. But an insult referes to the sense of diminishment of ego. if there is no ego, ABSOLUTELY no ego, then how can the sense of ego be diminished? No ego in the Absolute; the ego is in the self. Some supposedly enlightened people *do* use circumlocutions like This body is cold rather than I am cold, but such expressions have always struck me as a bit pretentious. Yes, it does sound a bit odd, but the problem is that there is no subjective self or me that any word points to. So you can say, I'm cold, but there is no I, there's just cold. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
Hey, I just hopped on after watching the Giants getting there asses handed to them.Guess I'll have to see what this is all about. --- mrfishey2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Howewer I find no reason to assume as a priori true that Peter is a gifted psychotherapist or that this is his stategy. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, double talk is just double talk, a hoax is just a hoax, absurdity is just absurdity. Your cigar analogy aside, I canÕt imagine what would posses you to create a complilations of past proclamations of something so patently, as you say, absurd. When in the park most who come across an unfortunate hygienic offense simply walk around - anthologies being traditionally reserved for things worthy of consideration. Cataloging waste falls into an entirely different category. You might try contacting the good doctor privately. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip That doesn't mean the person who is enlightened can't speak about what the self is feeling, e.g., insulted. Not in this case. One could say the body is cold. Because there is a body, but one does not identify with it. But an insult referes to the sense of diminishment of ego. if there is no ego, ABSOLUTELY no ego, then how can the sense of ego be diminished? No ego in the Absolute; the ego is in the self. I am sure you get the point. If there IS absolutely, emphatically NO EGO or individuality in Enlightenment, as Peter claims as the universal definitional of enlightenment -- valid and true for ALL -- as well as this being his OWN 'experience', then how can such a NONEXISTING ego feel diminishment? It is a paradox Peter refuses to explain even though he has been asked to do so a number of times. One hypothesis, the only one presented so far -- and thus the standard -- the bogey to disprove - is that Peter indeed has a space of relative, in-the-world, ego and individuality that feels diminished at times by percieved insults, but that Peter is blind to this ego area within himself. Like problems of the eye trying to see itself. And the identification of this ego area is particularly difficult for Peter -- so the hypothesis claims -- because it would mean that by HIS own clearly stated definition of enlightenement -- the SOLE criteria of which is NO-EGO -- that Peter is not enlightened. And, per the hypothesis, this would be a huge blow to the existing, yet hidden from (Peter's) view, ego. Thus the hidden ego fights voraciously to protect its claim to enlightenment, its core attainment, by denying its own existance. Yet it gets flustered and angry when confronted with clear evidence of its own existence: the experience of feeling insulted - that is the ego feels diminished. (Which could not occur if the ego did not exist, as Peter claims). I say percieved insults, because of the continuing flow of personal cognitive errors that Peter contines to lay out for us. (For example, a number of times he will say, This post said xyz. When indeed an examination ofthe post says no such thing.) Its a rope and snake thing. For some reason Peter often sees a snarling snake (insults) when indeed all that is there is a rope on the floor. One would expect that as vasana knots loosen, or dissolve, such cognitve errors should decline. Thus another interesting contradiction in Peter's case. Some supposedly enlightened people *do* use circumlocutions like This body is cold rather than I am cold, but such expressions have always struck me as a bit pretentious. Amma goes as far as speaking in the 3rd person, Mother did this and Mother said that Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > Howewer I find no reason to assume as a priori > true that Peter is a > gifted psychotherapist or that this is his stategy. > > Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, double talk is > just double talk, a > hoax is just a hoax, absurdity is just absurdity. And a latte is just a latte--case closed. Sal
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snippus maximus Same with the person who says there *is* ego in enlightenment; they may be referring to the self rather than the Self but simply not making that distinction clear. It might be if you sat 'em both down and asked them questions that elicited the distinctions, you'd find they were in agreement. Yeah, I said awhile back that there is an ego experienced in enlightenment, and made it clear at the time that the identification shifts from self to Self. This can also be interpreted as the disappearance of the ego, since the identification with the self disappears. Hope this helps. Unfortunately anon/akasha is far too interested in remaining where he is than eliciting any kind of answers. Too bad- makes him a real creepy dude. What was your favorite saying again Jim? Oh yes. The world is as we are. Nice saying Nice saying?...and you wrote recently: This is not a problem of semantics, nuance and poetic differences. The four statments together are a farce. Its either absurd or insane. Its not mystical insight, spiritual paradox, or poetic license. Its double speak pusshing its own limits. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snippus maximus Same with the person who says there *is* ego in enlightenment; they may be referring to the self rather than the Self but simply not making that distinction clear. It might be if you sat 'em both down and asked them questions that elicited the distinctions, you'd find they were in agreement. Yeah, I said awhile back that there is an ego experienced in enlightenment, and made it clear at the time that the identification shifts from self to Self. This can also be interpreted as the disappearance of the ego, since the identification with the self disappears. Hope this helps. Unfortunately anon/akasha is far too interested in remaining where he is than eliciting any kind of answers. Too bad- makes him a real creepy dude. What was your favorite saying again Jim? Oh yes. The world is as we are. Nice saying Nice saying?...and you wrote recently: This is not a problem of semantics, nuance and poetic differences. The four statments together are a farce. Its either absurd or insane. Its not mystical insight, spiritual paradox, or poetic license. Its double speak pusshing its own limits. Yes. And? The four statements are a conradiction. They are either absurd or insane. What argument do you have with this? Do you find the four statments consistent? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip That doesn't mean the person who is enlightened can't speak about what the self is feeling, e.g., insulted. Not in this case. One could say the body is cold. Because there is a body, but one does not identify with it. But an insult referes to the sense of diminishment of ego. if there is no ego, ABSOLUTELY no ego, then how can the sense of ego be diminished? No ego in the Absolute; the ego is in the self. I am sure you get the point. If there IS absolutely, emphatically NO EGO or individuality in Enlightenment, as Peter claims as the universal definitional of enlightenment -- valid and true for ALL -- as well as this being his OWN 'experience', then how can such a NONEXISTING ego feel diminishment? Trying again: No ego in the Absolute--absolutely no ego; the ego is in the self. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip That doesn't mean the person who is enlightened can't speak about what the self is feeling, e.g., insulted. Not in this case. One could say the body is cold. Because there is a body, but one does not identify with it. But an insult referes to the sense of diminishment of ego. if there is no ego, ABSOLUTELY no ego, then how can the sense of ego be diminished? No ego in the Absolute; the ego is in the self. I am sure you get the point. If there IS absolutely, emphatically NO EGO or individuality in Enlightenment, as Peter claims as the universal definitional of enlightenment -- valid and true for ALL -- as well as this being his OWN 'experience', then how can such a NONEXISTING ego feel diminishment? Trying again: No ego in the Absolute--absolutely no ego; the ego is in the self. I guess you are playing with my use of the word absolutely -- and making a joke, not a point clarification. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip That doesn't mean the person who is enlightened can't speak about what the self is feeling, e.g., insulted. Not in this case. One could say the body is cold. Because there is a body, but one does not identify with it. But an insult referes to the sense of diminishment of ego. if there is no ego, ABSOLUTELY no ego, then how can the sense of ego be diminished? No ego in the Absolute; the ego is in the self. I am sure you get the point. If there IS absolutely, emphatically NO EGO or individuality in Enlightenment, as Peter claims as the universal definitional of enlightenment -- valid and true for ALL -- as well as this being his OWN 'experience', then how can such a NONEXISTING ego feel diminishment? Trying again: No ego in the Absolute--absolutely no ego; the ego is in the self. I guess you are playing with my use of the word absolutely -- and making a joke, not a point clarification. Think about it a bit more. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip That doesn't mean the person who is enlightened can't speak about what the self is feeling, e.g., insulted. Not in this case. One could say the body is cold. Because there is a body, but one does not identify with it. But an insult referes to the sense of diminishment of ego. if there is no ego, ABSOLUTELY no ego, then how can the sense of ego be diminished? No ego in the Absolute; the ego is in the self. I am sure you get the point. If there IS absolutely, emphatically NO EGO or individuality in Enlightenment, as Peter claims as the universal definitional of enlightenment -- valid and true for ALL -- as well as this being his OWN 'experience', then how can such a NONEXISTING ego feel diminishment? Trying again: No ego in the Absolute--absolutely no ego; the ego is in the self. I guess you are playing with my use of the word absolutely -- and making a joke, not a point clarification. Think about it a bit more. And Peter is claiming that there is no self, no ego, no ego in the self, no self in the ego, no nothing there, zippo, game over, lights out. So I am suggesting that Peter is wrapped up in a fallacy -- a misView -- an incorrect interpretation of his experience, a cogitive error. This is because if an insult is a sense of diminishment of the ego, and Peter feels insulted, then ergo -- he has ego space. And thus by his own strict and sole-criteria definition of of enlightnement, he is not enlightened. Yet I am sure I am still missing your shining, but to me, obscure koan. :) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, it does sound a bit odd, but the problem is that there is no subjective self or me that any word points to. So you can say, I'm cold, but there is no I, there's just cold. I have not been posting lately but thoughts I put my two cents into this discussion.IMHO the concept of individuality primarily refers to the physical body and the social entity that is expressed via that body(eg few people on FFL would mistake Peter S. for Tom P:)).Hopefully we can all agree that there exists a physical body and social entity called Peter Sutphen.However the latter individual no longer has any experience of a personal self nor is there any sense of someone having a body,a mind etc.The individual known as Peter Sutphen(and in particular the brain) does have a specific learning history and also relatively stable behavioral and personality characteristics eg heapparently follows professional football.It is this psycho-social entity that participates in this discussion group and which sometimes responses with anger to the posts of others. Infact it is my experience and belief that the absence of a personal self and related subjective changes(inner silence/distinction between being and action)frequently have a minimal impact on the behavior of the physical and social individual.IOW being enlightened in this sense is unlikely to make you a better golfer or for that matter a better person.I do disagree with the position that the term enlightenment should or can be limited to the state described above.Kevin __ Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less. dsl.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, coshlnx [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --You could be a Nichiren Shoshu Buddhist, without knowing it. Are you referring to me (a_non_moose_ff)? This is a desire oriented form of Buddhism, 180deg. in contrast to most traditional sects of Buddhism which have a stern condemnation of attempting to fulfill selfish desires. In Nichiren's Buddhism, the energy latent in all people (ALL physically embodied people) can be used as fuel for the attainment (since this is a progressive path) of Enlightenment, by attaching one's desire to the particular mantra (Nam Myoho Renge Kyo). I think I have a (missed)-connection to this group. The summer after my 6-months TTC, I was in LA, walking down Santa Monica Ave., still a bit spacey from all the rounding, when this volkswagon with two beautiful girls -- college age -- roars up, stops just in front of me, and both pop out and they gush vivaciously, want to fulfill all your desires? I sort of smiled - mumbbled, well, um and they started talking about chanting what I think it was Nam Myoho Renge Kyo. They said, We are going to a meeting, come with us. Well, being a total stick-up my ass new initiator, I said, um, well I practice TM.. They said, cool, come with us. After a bit of discussion, I quite stupidly declined (wtf was I thinking!). Something about purity of the teaching and not being seen at other teachers courses blathering through my mind. Eventually, the chanting of the mantra coupled with the intent to fulfill desires results in one or more alternative outcomes:, such as... 1. The desire is Adharmic, in which case it will eventually self- destruct. 2. The desire will be transformed into a different desire. 3. The desire may be fulfilled or not fulfilled,; but regardless of many possible outcomes, the result, given time is: Some other methods seem to use this. Danhur Ved? HENDOKU IYAKU, which means changing poison into medicine. The poison exists as the pain of having not fulfilled one's desire, or the suffering of some known or unknown cause. In due course of one's attempt to avoid pain and embrace pleasure, the idea is to transform one's desires from base heavy metals (lead, mercury), into pure gold and the elixir of Soma. I chanted Nam Myoho Renge Knyo for 20 years with great benefit What specifically? but now I chant the first verse of the Surangama Sutra. Chant only, or offerings too? (The Surangama Sutra text is shown on the website Vaj menationed - text written by Hsuan Hua. He was my first Buddhist Guru during the 70's. (ate lunch with him on a number of occasions...very humble fellow. To eat lunch with MMY I'd have to fork over a mil. at least). PS: Nichiren Buddhists spend little time speculating on the nature of Enlightenment, but spend more time attempting to fulfill concrete desires right on our dinner plate. These are the stepping stones to Enlightenment, which will take care of itself in the due course of time, PS 2(along with TM of course). I doubt that Vaj's Guru Norbu Rinpoche has any individual technique which can compare with the effectiveness of TM. and VAj says? I'll probably get an e mail on that. He's quick to criticize TM, but whenever I even mention Norbu Rinpoche vaj sends me an e mail. Fine...I like to hear from fellow Buddhists. FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 7, 2006, at 4:38 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: My sense of the vasanas are the tight grip of residue and structure of conditionings and experiences that make I appear to be the body or mind or intellect. When that grip lossens, then that false sense of I dissolves. But the structure of vasanas is still there -- just not a tight or binding grip. More translucent. Social self is still there. Just not hung up in oneself as before, no one or thing to get insulted, or to get mad and angry (as in losing it -- though certainly displeasure might still be shown). Thus an experience of social self, same characteristics, but being loser, freer, playful, very flexibible, etc. And some vasanas -- while more loose and translucent, may be human liver and fava bean oriented. Its my experience that mind / intellect continue to react, process, learn, and digest old habits and patterns, just as when vasannas were tighter. But now faster, with everything flowing more loosely, flexibly playfully. And I sense vasanas can and do get more radically transformed as jiva mukti flows in to veheda mukti (spelling ?) As IT is seen to be all there is. Hey, it's easier to lose them during the dark night of the soul doncha know? Wait till he finds out it's actually not Vedic to do that...man will those vasanas be
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 7, 2006, at 4:38 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: Well, if you mean enlightenment to mean something good is happening, then fine. Its just traditionally the term has been used in specific ways. And in recent years some have hijacked the term and used it to label almost anything, BUT implying that they mean the same as traditional enlightenment. Its a bit of a charlatan's game is some caes, IMO. Bottom line: the words for different states of enlightenment just don't exist in English. That's why I always insist my enlightenment has the 100% Vedic tag :-)...no seriously...in their correct sense, the Sanskrit names relating to the different states of consciousness have a precise meaning. That's not to say everyone needs to parrot out the same description, everyone's different. IME the vast majority of people claiming enlightenment, in Vedantic terms, have had a taste of the Self. Self-recognition. Grokked the View. It doesn't mean we've carried the View, have gained confidence in the View or are established in it. If we can rest in the View for long enough, signs manifest. It's precisely because these signs aren't mentioned, it's natural to wonder. DO yuo know what grok means? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
On Jan 8, 2006, at 8:17 PM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 7, 2006, at 4:38 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: Well, if you mean enlightenment to mean "something good is happening", then fine. Its just traditionally the term has been used in specific ways. And in recent years some have hijacked the term and used it to label almost anything, BUT implying that they mean the same as traditional "enlightenment". Its a bit of a charlatan's game is some caes, IMO. Bottom line: the words for different "states" of enlightenment just don't exist in English. That's why I always insist my enlightenment has the 100% Vedic tag :-)...no seriously...in their correct sense, the Sanskrit names relating to the different states of consciousness have a precise meaning. That's not to say everyone needs to parrot out the same description, everyone's different. IME the vast majority of people claiming "enlightenment", in Vedantic terms, have had a taste of the Self. "Self-recognition". Grokked the View. It doesn't mean we've carried the View, have gained confidence in the View or are established in it. If we can rest in the View for long enough, signs manifest. It's precisely because these signs aren't mentioned, it's natural to wonder. DO yuo know what "grok" means? Just what I got from Heinlein and how it's used in common use now.Read Stranger in a Strange Land, then you'll get it. Well, maybe. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 8, 2006, at 8:17 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 7, 2006, at 4:38 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: Well, if you mean enlightenment to mean something good is happening, then fine. Its just traditionally the term has been used in specific ways. And in recent years some have hijacked the term and used it to label almost anything, BUT implying that they mean the same as traditional enlightenment. Its a bit of a charlatan's game is some caes, IMO. Bottom line: the words for different states of enlightenment just don't exist in English. That's why I always insist my enlightenment has the 100% Vedic tag :-)...no seriously...in their correct sense, the Sanskrit names relating to the different states of consciousness have a precise meaning. That's not to say everyone needs to parrot out the same description, everyone's different. IME the vast majority of people claiming enlightenment, in Vedantic terms, have had a taste of the Self. Self-recognition. Grokked the View. It doesn't mean we've carried the View, have gained confidence in the View or are established in it. If we can rest in the View for long enough, signs manifest. It's precisely because these signs aren't mentioned, it's natural to wonder. DO yuo know what grok means? Just what I got from Heinlein and how it's used in common use now. Read Stranger in a Strange Land, then you'll get it. Well, maybe. Obviously you didn't grok grok. BTW,there is a specific meaning given in the book itself. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 8, 2006, at 8:17 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 7, 2006, at 4:38 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: Well, if you mean enlightenment to mean something good is happening, then fine. Its just traditionally the term has been used in specific ways. And in recent years some have hijacked the term and used it to label almost anything, BUT implying that they mean the same as traditional enlightenment. Its a bit of a charlatan's game is some caes, IMO. Bottom line: the words for different states of enlightenment just don't exist in English. That's why I always insist my enlightenment has the 100% Vedic tag :-)...no seriously...in their correct sense, the Sanskrit names relating to the different states of consciousness have a precise meaning. That's not to say everyone needs to parrot out the same description, everyone's different. IME the vast majority of people claiming enlightenment, in Vedantic terms, have had a taste of the Self. Self-recognition. Grokked the View. It doesn't mean we've carried the View, have gained confidence in the View or are established in it. If we can rest in the View for long enough, signs manifest. It's precisely because these signs aren't mentioned, it's natural to wonder. DO yuo know what grok means? Just what I got from Heinlein and how it's used in common use now. Read Stranger in a Strange Land, then you'll get it. Well, maybe. Obviously you didn't grok grok. BTW,there is a specific meaning given in the book itself. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: DO yuo know what grok means? Just what I got from Heinlein and how it's used in common use now. Read Stranger in a Strange Land, then you'll get it. Well, maybe. Obviously you didn't grok grok. BTW,there is a specific meaning given in the book itself. grok To grok (pronounced GRAHK) something is to understand something so well that it is fully absorbed into oneself. In Robert Heinlein's science-fiction novel of 1961, Stranger in a Strange Land, the word is Martian and literally means to drink but metaphorically means to take it all in, to understand fully, or to be at one with. Today, grok sometimes is used to include acceptance as well as comprehension - to dig or appreciate as well as to know. As one character from Heinlein's novel says: 'Grok' means to understand so thoroughly that the observer becomes a part of the observed - to merge, blend, intermarry, lose identity in group experience. It means almost everything that we mean by religion, philosophy, and science - and it means as little to us (because we are from Earth) as color means to a blind man. In common usage, Do you grok? seems close in meaning to Do you get it? Same thing, amongst other things, Jimi Hendrix meant when he sang a few years later Are you Experienced? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Same thing, amongst other things, Jimi Hendrix meant when he sang a few years later Are you Experienced? --- Are You Experienced? If you can just get your mind together (jivan mukti) then come across to me (become videha mukti) We'll hold hands an' then we'll watch the sun rise (the mechanics of creation) From the bottom of the sea ( the unfied field, think bubble diagram) But first (Agnnni ..) Are You Experienced? (Do you grok IT?) Ah! Have you ever been experienced? (have you ever groked IT?) Well, I have I know, I know (Total knowledge, fully realized realized in pure knowldge) You'll probably scream n' cry ( untying the knots of vasansas) That your little world won't let go (My hut, my hut. I don't wnat to give up my hut to go live in the palace) But who in your measly little world are trying to prove that (relative world) You're made out of gold and -a can't be sold (are celestial and am beyond desire) So-er, Are You Experienced? Ah! Have you ever been experienced? Well, I have Ah, let me prove it to you (Let me give you a grok transmission) I think they're calling our names (in the ved as it unfolds before us) Maybe now you can't hear them, but you will (You are on the threshold of seerdom) If you just take hold of my hand (if you realize that Atman is Brahman) Ah! But Are You Experienced? Have you ever been experienced? Not necessarily stoned, but beautiful. (LSD, or sadhana not necessary, you just need to grok IT. ) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Same thing, amongst other things, Jimi Hendrix meant when he sang a few years later Are you Experienced? --- Are You Experienced? If you can just get your mind together (jivan mukti) then come across to me (become videha mukti) We'll hold hands an' then we'll watch the sun rise (the mechanics of creation) From the bottom of the sea ( the unfied field, think bubble diagram) But first (Agnnni ..) Are You Experienced? (Do you grok IT?) Ah! Have you ever been experienced? (have you ever groked IT?) Well, I have I know, I know (Total knowledge, fully realized realized in pure knowldge) You'll probably scream n' cry ( untying the knots of vasansas) That your little world won't let go (My hut, my hut. I don't wnat to give up my hut to go live in the palace) But who in your measly little world are trying to prove that (relative world) You're made out of gold and -a can't be sold (are celestial and am beyond desire) So-er, Are You Experienced? Ah! Have you ever been experienced? Well, I have Ah, let me prove it to you (Let me give you a grok transmission) I think they're calling our names (in the ved as it unfolds before us) Maybe now you can't hear them, but you will (You are on the threshold of seerdom) If you just take hold of my hand (if you realize that Atman is Brahman) Ah! But Are You Experienced? Have you ever been experienced? Not necessarily stoned, but beautiful. (LSD, or sadhana not necessary, you just need to grok IT. ) Interesting interpretation- I used to hear all songs in this mode for years; that the singer and/or writer were always focused on, and expressing, their desire for merging with the Divine, even in love songs. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] The local band of self-proclaimed enlightened on FFL appear to take themselves so seriously, and don't seem to have much if any ability to laugh at themselves -- and ironies that inevitably arise. S! You'll awaken the sleeping elephants... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis wrote: a_non_moose_ff wrote: My original comments, abve, on Tom's post are part of my periodic laughter at the ironies, paradoxes and/or inconsistencies sxpressed by so-called self-proclaimed enlightened. Tom proclaims that it is solely Brahman who seees through Tom's eyes and types throuhg Tom's fingers. So when Tom regularly lasses out in (IMO) appears as gloom, anger, and silly reasoning, it makes me laugh. Similar to my laughter when Peter claims absolutely no ego exists yet feels deeply insulted at times. And my laughter at the band of self-proclaimed enlightened as they stumble over themselves in expressing contractiory attributes of the assumed (by the casual reader) commonality of the label enlightenment (when in fact they are each defining the state in different ways.) Tom T: Have your ever heard of the Paradox of Brahman? Is it possible that this conundrum is something the mind can not fathom. Or is it Jaimini? H! Enjoy! Tom T Or there may be simpler explanations to explain huge incnosistencies among the utterings of the the so-called enlightened. Ocham's Razor and all. Maybe some / all are not enlightened per traditonal use of the term. To explain all ironies and paradox as the Paradox of Brahaman seems naive and silly. Like Bush invaded Iraq for WMD, yet there were no WMD! -- The Paradox of Brahman? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Sometimes a silly set of contradictions are just that. Dressing up silly statements as high falutin advaidic talk at times cam approach charlatism. Or at least good comedy. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is it your belief that an enlightened person no longer has an ego or conditioned mind? [snip] And I assume, corrections welcome, that the premise of your question stems from the view of Waking Down that there is an ego (and conditioned mind) in enlightnement. I suppose it's time for me to come out of the closet and fess up to having recently emerged from the Dark Night of the Soul as another FFL SCA. My conditioned state has not changed; I still have the same wiring, the same likes and dislikes, attractions, etc. What's different, however, is with who/what I identify. I'm not a mood-maker; I tell it like I see it. And, on 1 Nov. 2005, I wrote to Sandra Glickman: On Saturday you asked me something along the lines of, Who is aware of being irritated? The answer is that my I-ness experienced itself as being in the condition of being irritated. For me, it's all me/I/self all the way down. That is no longer the case. I emerged from the dark night with this sorta neti neti thang going on and the realization that I am NOT this John Alexander Stanleyness. I am NOT my body. I am NOT my conditioning. I am NOT my thoughts, beliefs, opinions, etc. If I ask myself, Who am I?, there is only silence and awareness; there is nothing I can say (which is why it took me a while to grasp the awakening; I was hung up on the concept that there would be an affirmative I AM THAT, so I spent a couple weeks in a state of doubt). The internal experience now is a very quiet, child-like innocence. There's profound joy and freedom in it, yet it is utterly mundane. And, while the conditioned state has not changed, it simply doesn't matter. I laughed while reading Vaj's recent post about obliterating vasanas, because I figure that as long as my vasanas are not compelling me to eat human liver with fava beans and a nice Chianti, who the fuck cares? Perhaps, at some point, I'll decide to do some exploration and/or modification on the level of my subtle relative existence, but not right now. After so many decades of Scotty down in engineering diverting all available power to the grasper beam and aversion engines, I am content to just be. [snip] And Tom T, who claims enlightenment, says there are milions of diferent types of enlightenemnt, or flavors as he calls them. It makes perfect sense to me that awareness aware of itself, as expressed through myriad mind/body organisms, will show up in myriad different ways. If the field of all possibilities could only express itself as those possibilities that don't contradict each other, it wouldn't be a field of ALL possibilities. So hopefully you share some the the difficulty I have with the use of the label enlightenment. And also the phenomenon of self-proclamation of self-defined enlightenment. The only difficulty I have with the label enlightenment is the notion that it has to be rigidly defined. But, I have no issue with someone proclaiming that he no longer identifies with story and illusion. Alex Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is it your belief that an enlightened person no longer has an ego or conditioned mind? [snip] And I assume, corrections welcome, that the premise of your question stems from the view of Waking Down that there is an ego (and conditioned mind) in enlightnement. I suppose it's time for me to come out of the closet and fess up to having recently emerged from the Dark Night of the Soul as another FFL SCA. My conditioned state has not changed; I still have the same wiring, the same likes and dislikes, attractions, etc. What's different, however, is with who/what I identify. I'm not a mood-maker; I tell it like I see it. And, on 1 Nov. 2005, I wrote to Sandra Glickman: On Saturday you asked me something along the lines of, Who is aware of being irritated? The answer is that my I-ness experienced itself as being in the condition of being irritated. For me, it's all me/I/self all the way down. That is no longer the case. I emerged from the dark night with this sorta neti neti thang going on and the realization that I am NOT this John Alexander Stanleyness. I am NOT my body. I am NOT my conditioning. I am NOT my thoughts, beliefs, opinions, etc. If I ask myself, Who am I?, there is only silence and awareness; there is nothing I can say (which is why it took me a while to grasp the awakening; I was hung up on the concept that there would be an affirmative I AM THAT, so I spent a couple weeks in a state of doubt). The internal experience now is a very quiet, child-like innocence. There's profound joy and freedom in it, yet it is utterly mundane. And, while the conditioned state has not changed, it simply doesn't matter. I laughed while reading Vaj's recent post about obliterating vasanas, because I figure that as long as my vasanas are not compelling me to eat human liver with fava beans and a nice Chianti, who the fuck cares? Perhaps, at some point, I'll decide to do some exploration and/or modification on the level of my subtle relative existence, but not right now. After so many decades of Scotty down in engineering diverting all available power to the grasper beam and aversion engines, I am content to just be. [snip] And Tom T, who claims enlightenment, says there are milions of diferent types of enlightenemnt, or flavors as he calls them. It makes perfect sense to me that awareness aware of itself, as expressed through myriad mind/body organisms, will show up in myriad different ways. If the field of all possibilities could only express itself as those possibilities that don't contradict each other, it wouldn't be a field of ALL possibilities. So hopefully you share some the the difficulty I have with the use of the label enlightenment. And also the phenomenon of self-proclamation of self-defined enlightenment. The only difficulty I have with the label enlightenment is the notion that it has to be rigidly defined. But, I have no issue with someone proclaiming that he no longer identifies with story and illusion. Alex And a Very Happy New Year and Life to You, Alex! As you continue to enjoy the myriad discoveries of your now infinite freedom, inner and outer. Pretty cool, huh? Pretty normal, huh? Glad you fessed up and posted this Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is it your belief that an enlightened person no longer has an ego or conditioned mind? [snip] And I assume, corrections welcome, that the premise of your question stems from the view of Waking Down that there is an ego (and conditioned mind) in enlightnement. Nice post. Thanks. I suppose it's time for me to come out of the closet and fess up to having recently emerged from the Dark Night of the Soul as another FFL SCA. My conditioned state has not changed; I still have the same wiring, the same likes and dislikes, attractions, etc. What's different, however, is with who/what I identify. Though maybe its semantics, my experience is not I NOW identify with THAT. Its just IT IS. And this other stuff just goes on its merry way (day to day life). I'm not a mood-maker; I tell it like I see it. And, on 1 Nov. 2005, I wrote to Sandra Glickman: On Saturday you asked me something along the lines of, Who is aware of being irritated? The answer is that my I-ness experienced itself as being in the condition of being irritated. For me, it's all me/I/self all the way down. That is no longer the case. I emerged from the dark night with this sorta neti neti thang going on and the realization that I am NOT this John Alexander Stanleyness. I am NOT my body. I am NOT my conditioning. I am NOT my thoughts, beliefs, opinions, etc. Yes. I think many of us have gone through such a process over the years. Not being my body was clear from a yong age. Not being my thoughts and opinions came off and on over the years. The ruthlessness of some of Byron Katie's work helped sear off some dangling flesh of that. As in all of such de-couplings, non-attatchments, understanding is one stage, having it manifest in ones life is another stage. For example, its not too difficult to understand that one is not their ideas and thoughts. That unanalyzed, thoughts have no more inherent rightness than ony one's else. They are NOT inherently true because I had them. But its another thing to find less and less and then no sense of ownership of ones ideas. No sense of loss if someone takes my idea and runs with it and claims it as theirs. No sense of having to prove one's ideas to be correct, or better. No sense of insult if someone criticizes ones ideas OR the thinker of the ideas. I think of it as not a loss but like giving books away to the Library. Its still there but others can now take the book out of the library and own it -- with no loss to me. ) Thoughts are public goods, not Mine. Beyond loss of ownership and possessivness of thoughts, I found that there is a deeper sense of do-ership that gets de-coupled. That is the decider. The intellect. Buddhi. For me, for years, the sense of doer (of I) was not in the body or mind (thinker of thoughts), but in the decider. It was I that was making powerful and subtle distinctions, comparisons, valuations, gainng insights, etc. That intellectual process still contines, but the sense of I, me as the doer, me as the decider had gone. Analysis just happens. It is buddhi's nature to analyze. And it just does it. No Me necessary or involved. Similar with what I know as intuition, though others may use the differently. I used to use the term bindu points -- little points of energy that bloom instantly into knowledge about something. It just happens. It just unfolds. Its not me. As you say, neti, neti. Whats left? IT IS. It just glows, for want of a better analogy. Its not I am THAT. its just IT IS. And along with IT, buddhi and thoughts and runing around of daily life happen just as outside events happen. They react among themselves accroding to their inhernet nature. Senses see something. Automatically. Mind reacts with a thought. Automatically. Buddhi analyzes and distinguishes. Automatically. Legs move, mouth moves. Automatically. IT just IS. If I ask myself, Who am I?, there is only silence and awareness; there is nothing I can say (which is why it took me a while to grasp the awakening; I was hung up on the concept that there would be an affirmative I AM THAT, so I spent a couple weeks in a state of doubt). That is similar experience here. If anything, its a realization of I am not That. That is, IT just IS. Separate from the social self or genes -- the buddhi, thoughts walking, speaking. That social/genetic self, more recently the buddi, used to be ME. For practical purposes of social interaction it still is. All of that is NOT IT, which just IS. The internal experience now is a very quiet, child-like innocence. There's profound joy and freedom in it, yet it is utterly mundane. And, while the conditioned state has not changed, it simply doesn't matter. I laughed while reading Vaj's recent post
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
On Jan 7, 2006, at 4:38 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:My sense of the vasanas are the tight grip of residue and structure of conditionings and experiences that make "I" appear to be the body or mind or intellect. When that grip lossens, then that false sense of I dissolves. But the structure of vasanas is still there -- just not a tight or binding grip. More translucent. Social self is still there. Just not hung up in "oneself" as before, no one or thing to get insulted, or to get mad and angry (as in "losing it" -- though certainly displeasure might still be shown). Thus an experience of social self, same characteristics, but being loser, freer, playful, very flexibible, etc. And some vasanas -- while more loose and translucent, may be "human liver and fava bean" oriented. Its my experience that mind / intellect continue to react, process, learn, and digest old habits and patterns, just as when vasannas were tighter. But now faster, with everything flowing more loosely, flexibly playfully. And I sense vasanas can and do get more radically transformed as jiva mukti flows in to veheda mukti (spelling ?) As IT is seen to be all there is. Hey, it's easier to lose them during the dark night of the soul doncha know? Wait till he finds out it's actually not Vedic to do that...man will those vasanas be pissed! And of course the universal black-hole of the soul is exponentially worse. Just because you left your vasanas at the Otumwa mall, doesn't make it good. Just wait. I always make certain my vasana-kshaya is 100% Vedic. Sure they have to sacrifice a goat, but dude, they do it in India... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
On Jan 7, 2006, at 4:38 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote:Well, if you mean enlightenment to mean "something good is happening", then fine. Its just traditionally the term has been used in specific ways. And in recent years some have hijacked the term and used it to label almost anything, BUT implying that they mean the same as traditional "enlightenment". Its a bit of a charlatan's game is some caes, IMO. Bottom line: the words for different "states" of enlightenment just don't exist in English. That's why I always insist my enlightenment has the 100% Vedic tag :-)...no seriously...in their correct sense, the Sanskrit names relating to the different states of consciousness have a precise meaning. That's not to say everyone needs to parrot out the same description, everyone's different.IME the vast majority of people claiming "enlightenment", in Vedantic terms, have had a taste of the Self. "Self-recognition". Grokked the View.It doesn't mean we've carried the View, have gained confidence in the View or are established in it. If we can rest in the View for long enough, signs manifest. It's precisely because these signs aren't mentioned, it's natural to wonder. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 7, 2006, at 4:38 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: My sense of the vasanas are the tight grip of residue and structure of conditionings and experiences that make I appear to be the body or mind or intellect. When that grip lossens, then that false sense of I dissolves. But the structure of vasanas is still there -- just not a tight or binding grip. More translucent. Social self is still there. Just not hung up in oneself as before, no one or thing to get insulted, or to get mad and angry (as in losing it -- though certainly displeasure might still be shown). Thus an experience of social self, same characteristics, but being loser, freer, playful, very flexibible, etc. And some vasanas -- while more loose and translucent, may be human liver and fava bean oriented. Its my experience that mind / intellect continue to react, process, learn, and digest old habits and patterns, just as when vasannas were tighter. But now faster, with everything flowing more loosely, flexibly playfully. And I sense vasanas can and do get more radically transformed as jiva mukti flows in to veheda mukti (spelling ?) As IT is seen to be all there is. Hey, it's easier to lose them during the dark night of the soul doncha know? Wait till he finds out it's actually not Vedic to do that...man will those vasanas be pissed! And of course the universal black-hole of the soul is exponentially worse. Just because you left your vasanas at the Otumwa mall, doesn't make it good. Just wait. I always make certain my vasana-kshaya is 100% Vedic. Sure they have to sacrifice a goat, but dude, they do it in India... Its even better when you sacrifice a skunk. :) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 7, 2006, at 4:38 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: My sense of the vasanas are the tight grip of residue and structure of conditionings and experiences that make I appear to be the body or mind or intellect. When that grip lossens, then that false sense of I dissolves. But the structure of vasanas is still there -- just not a tight or binding grip. More translucent. Social self is still there. Just not hung up in oneself as before, no one or thing to get insulted, or to get mad and angry (as in losing it -- though certainly displeasure might still be shown). Thus an experience of social self, same characteristics, but being loser, freer, playful, very flexibible, etc. And some vasanas -- while more loose and translucent, may be human liver and fava bean oriented. Its my experience that mind / intellect continue to react, process, learn, and digest old habits and patterns, just as when vasannas were tighter. But now faster, with everything flowing more loosely, flexibly playfully. And I sense vasanas can and do get more radically transformed as jiva mukti flows in to veheda mukti (spelling ?) As IT is seen to be all there is. Hey, it's easier to lose them during the dark night of the soul doncha know? Wait till he finds out it's actually not Vedic to do that...man will those vasanas be pissed! And of course the universal black-hole of the soul is exponentially worse. Just because you left your vasanas at the Otumwa mall, doesn't make it good. Just wait. I always make certain my vasana-kshaya is 100% Vedic. Sure they have to sacrifice a goat, but dude, they do it in India... I've never had much interest in all that Vedic, Yogic, Brahman, Hiranyagarba, etc. Eastern esoterica, so if the space I've arrived in is not Vedicly kosher, I won't lose so much as one microsecond of sleep over it. Alex Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 7, 2006, at 4:38 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: My sense of the vasanas are the tight grip of residue and structure of conditionings and experiences that make I appear to be the body or mind or intellect. When that grip lossens, then that false sense of I dissolves. But the structure of vasanas is still there -- just not a tight or binding grip. More translucent. Social self is still there. Just not hung up in oneself as before, no one or thing to get insulted, or to get mad and angry (as in losing it -- though certainly displeasure might still be shown). Thus an experience of social self, same characteristics, but being loser, freer, playful, very flexibible, etc. And some vasanas -- while more loose and translucent, may be human liver and fava bean oriented. Its my experience that mind / intellect continue to react, process, learn, and digest old habits and patterns, just as when vasannas were tighter. But now faster, with everything flowing more loosely, flexibly playfully. And I sense vasanas can and do get more radically transformed as jiva mukti flows in to veheda mukti (spelling ?) As IT is seen to be all there is. Hey, it's easier to lose them during the dark night of the soul doncha know? Wait till he finds out it's actually not Vedic to do that...man will those vasanas be pissed! And of course the universal black-hole of the soul is exponentially worse. Just because you left your vasanas at the Otumwa mall, doesn't make it good. Just wait. I always make certain my vasana-kshaya is 100% Vedic. Sure they have to sacrifice a goat, but dude, they do it in India... I've never had much interest in all that Vedic, Yogic, Brahman, Hiranyagarba, etc. Eastern esoterica, so if the space I've arrived in is not Vedicly kosher, I won't lose so much as one microsecond of sleep over it. Alex Thats fine, as long as you are witnessing the sleep. :) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've never had much interest in all that Vedic, Yogic, Brahman, Hiranyagarba, etc. Eastern esoterica, so if the space I've arrived in is not Vedicly kosher, I won't lose so much as one microsecond of sleep over it. Alex Thats fine, as long as you are witnessing the sleep. :) diverting power to the aversion engines Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
On Jan 7, 2006, at 6:30 PM, Alex Stanley wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 7, 2006, at 4:38 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: My sense of the vasanas are the tight grip of residue and structure of conditionings and experiences that make "I" appear to be the body or mind or intellect. When that grip lossens, then that false sense of I dissolves. But the structure of vasanas is still there -- just not a tight or binding grip. More translucent. Social self is still there. Just not hung up in "oneself" as before, no one or thing to get insulted, or to get mad and angry (as in "losing it" -- though certainly displeasure might still be shown). Thus an experience of social self, same characteristics, but being loser, freer, playful, very flexibible, etc. And some vasanas -- while more loose and translucent, may be "human liver and fava bean" oriented. Its my experience that mind / intellect continue to react, process, learn, and digest old habits and patterns, just as when vasannas were tighter. But now faster, with everything flowing more loosely, flexibly playfully. And I sense vasanas can and do get more radically transformed as jiva mukti flows in to veheda mukti (spelling ?) As IT is seen to be all there is. Hey, it's easier to lose them during the dark night of the soul doncha know? Wait till he finds out it's actually not Vedic to do that...man will those vasanas be pissed! And of course the universal black-hole of the soul is exponentially worse. Just because you left your vasanas at the Otumwa mall, doesn't make it good. Just wait. I always make certain my vasana-kshaya is 100% Vedic. Sure they have to sacrifice a goat, but dude, they do it in India... I've never had much interest in all that Vedic, Yogic, Brahman, Hiranyagarba, etc. Eastern esoterica, so if the space I've arrived in is not Vedicly kosher, I won't lose so much as one microsecond of sleep over it. The inner/outer states don't have any brand names, schools or traditions at all so why worry about it? Really. But that doesn't change that what might have stated you was "x". To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 7, 2006, at 4:38 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: Well, if you mean enlightenment to mean something good is happening, then fine. Its just traditionally the term has been used in specific ways. And in recent years some have hijacked the term and used it to label almost anything, BUT implying that they mean the same as traditional enlightenment. Its a bit of a charlatan's game is some caes, IMO. Bottom line: the words for different states of enlightenment just don't exist in English. Is that the Absolute bottom line? :) That's why I always insist my enlightenment has the 100% Vedic tag :-) Is that like laser tag? Your IT! hahahaha ...no seriously...in their correct sense, the Sanskrit names relating to the different states of consciousness have a precise meaning. Yes. Language counts. The intellect gets mushy when using imprecise language. That's not to say everyone needs to parrot out the same description, everyone's different. Specific descriptors and attributes are good. And may or may not exactly correspond to broader labels (jivan mukti, etc). But maybe there are many paths AND many moutain tops. Not just one. For example, using your earlier point, if one just has repeated samadhi, and no specific techniques on vasanas, then the products will be different -- as the processes are different. As the LBS-sphere might say. Process predisposes product. IME the vast majority of people claiming enlightenment, in Vedantic terms, Maybe don't know much sansrit or much of tradtional definitions. So it can, at times, get to be a bit of a crock. Crock pots. have had a taste of the Self. Self-recognition. Grokked the View. Yes. That happened on my day of initiation. Everyone gets a taste from the beginning. How many have had this experience? Oh see all the hands, almost everyone. Very Good It doesn't mean we've carried the View, have gained confidence in the View or are established in it. Yes. For me its a profound point. One can understand that I and mind are not the same. But until a REAL de-coupling from the products of ones mind occur, its not a living reality. If one claims or lives a strong pattern of ownership with their thoughts, ideas (and posts), and feel a strong sense that THEIR ideas are inherently correct just because they had them, then they are still identifying with the mind. If being right about a topic of disccussion is important, as opposed to seeking out what is true -- from whosever mind it springs -- one is still identifying with the mind. Even all the while one may have the View I am not the mind. A further test is laugheter at ones own thoughts. If at least 50% of the thoughts that arise in ones mind don't seem hilariously inconsistent and full of errors, then one is identifying with the mind. And taking oneself way to seriously. One particular poster, a bit infrquent of late, brings me great pleasure and laughter. He always talks at great length about enlightenment and proclaims his enlightenment, and yet is almost anal in his defense of any and all of HIS ideas -- and appears genuinely threatened, or at least grieved, that anyone challenges them, even slightly. Its a beautiful lesson to watch unfold. Its like he has written a great play, and agreed to star in it, to help reflect a lesson us, to see our own foibles and attachments in our own mind products as great or as weak as such attachments may still be. And he can't ever seem to laugh at himself. If we can rest in the View for long enough, signs manifest. Are they neon? or LED signs? It's precisely because these signs aren't mentioned, it's natural to wonder. We just don't want to mess your mind up with envy :) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I've never had much interest in all that Vedic, Yogic, Brahman, Hiranyagarba, etc. Eastern esoterica, so if the space I've arrived in is not Vedicly kosher, I won't lose so much as one microsecond of sleep over it. Alex Right! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, a_non_moose_ff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've never had much interest in all that Vedic, Yogic, Brahman, Hiranyagarba, etc. Eastern esoterica, so if the space I've arrived in is not Vedicly kosher, I won't lose so much as one microsecond of sleep over it. Alex Thats fine, as long as you are witnessing the sleep. :) diverting power to the aversion engines haha (and I thought all your fears and aversions had been burned away.) :) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Ego in Enlightenment and Enlightened Ironies
On Jan 7, 2006, at 7:03 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 7, 2006, at 4:38 PM, a_non_moose_ff wrote: Well, if you mean enlightenment to mean something good is happening, then fine. Its just traditionally the term has been used in specific ways. And in recent years some have hijacked the term and used it to label almost anything, BUT implying that they mean the same as traditional enlightenment. Its a bit of a charlatan's game is some caes, IMO. Bottom line: the words for different states of enlightenment just don't exist in English. Is that the Absolute bottom line? :) Of course not. We learn, we adapt, we grow. Isn't all language sacred? That's why I always insist my enlightenment has the 100% Vedic tag :-) Is that like laser tag? Your IT! hahahaha Much more expensive. ...no seriously...in their correct sense, the Sanskrit names relating to the different states of consciousness have a precise meaning. Yes. Language counts. The intellect gets mushy when using imprecise language. That's not to say everyone needs to parrot out the same description, everyone's different. Specific descriptors and attributes are good. And may or may not exactly correspond to broader labels (jivan mukti, etc). But maybe there are many paths AND many moutain tops. Not just one. For example, using your earlier point, if one just has repeated samadhi, and no specific techniques on vasanas, then the products will be different -- as the processes are different. As the LBS-sphere might say. Process predisposes product. Yeah. View determines Fruit. Or vegetable. IME the vast majority of people claiming enlightenment, in Vedantic terms, Maybe don't know much sansrit or much of tradtional definitions. So it can, at times, get to be a bit of a crock. Crock pots. have had a taste of the Self. Self-recognition. Grokked the View. Yes. That happened on my day of initiation. Everyone gets a taste from the beginning. How many have had this experience? Oh see all the hands, almost everyone. Very Good Uh huh. It doesn't mean we've carried the View, have gained confidence in the View or are established in it. Yes. For me its a profound point. One can understand that I and mind are not the same. But until a REAL de-coupling from the products of ones mind occur, its not a living reality. If one claims or lives a strong pattern of ownership with their thoughts, ideas (and posts), and feel a strong sense that THEIR ideas are inherently correct just because they had them, then they are still identifying with the mind. If being right about a topic of disccussion is important, as opposed to seeking out what is true -- from whosever mind it springs -- one is still identifying with the mind. Even all the while one may have the View I am not the mind. A further test is laugheter at ones own thoughts. If at least 50% of the thoughts that arise in ones mind don't seem hilariously inconsistent and full of errors, then one is identifying with the mind. And taking oneself way to seriously. I'm fucked. I must laugh at only about 25%. I'll work on it OK? One particular poster, a bit infrquent of late, brings me great pleasure and laughter. He always talks at great length about enlightenment and proclaims his enlightenment, and yet is almost anal in his defense of any and all of HIS ideas -- and appears genuinely threatened, or at least grieved, that anyone challenges them, even slightly. Its a beautiful lesson to watch unfold. Its like he has written a great play, and agreed to star in it, to help reflect a lesson us, to see our own foibles and attachments in our own mind products as great or as weak as such attachments may still be. And he can't ever seem to laugh at himself. What's the saying? Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused? If we can rest in the View for long enough, signs manifest. Are they neon? or LED signs? Quantum. It's precisely because these signs aren't mentioned, it's natural to wonder. We just don't want to mess your mind up with envy :) Bless you. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
