Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
On Nov 22, 2005, at 2:56 AM, cardemaister wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To truly understand what this means, you should get an authentic teacher to explain the rather detailed commentary of the secrets in this passage contained in the yoga-siddhanta-chandrika. The comments on this sutra also reveal why the correct route around the siddhis is contained in this sutra. FWIW, the results of praaNaayaama or perhaps specifically "caturtha" according to Patañjali are as follows: 52. tataH kSiiyate prakaashaavaraNam Taimni's translation : From that is dissolved the covering of light. BTW, the second part of the suutra following YF (III 40-something) is a paraphrase of II 52: ...tataH prakaashaavaraNa-kSayaH. It's the "same" sentence as the nominal (without a finite verb form) one II 52(finite verb forms, above "kSiiyate", are very rare in YS, perhaps in many other suutras, too). The second result: 53. dhaaraNaasu ca yogyataa manasaH. IMO, the conjunction "ca" (and) implies the adverb "tataH" (from that) from 52. Translation: And [from caturthaH?] the fitness of the mind for concentration [dhaaraNaa, which of course is the first "component" of saMyama]. I'm not sure what you mean by "route around the siddhis",Patanjali or any sutra, requires a commentary from someone who knows how the system is actually used. In the oral tradition of Patanjali it is well known the siddhis and samyama formulae are not to be played with. The crux of this is that if one applies the YS correctly, one attains the fourth pranayama and the siddhis come and go spontaneously--thus avoiding getting trapped in yogic flying and other obstacles. If one perfects the fourth pranayama, one also can perfect nirodah. As the mind gets more and more subtle as the breath gets more and more subtle, these expansions are just there. but at least Patañjali doesn't seem to think like that if you mean by it what I think you mean. You should read Taimni's comment on II 52 where he explains his view why "tataH kSiiyate prakaashaavaraNam" obviously does not refer to the same "light" (prakaasha) as "...tataH prakaashaavaraNa (prakaasha + aavaraNa)-kSayaH." (The forms "aavaraNa" and "aavaraNam" are not different from each other semantically. In compounds words, save the last one, are used in the stem form without the indicators of gender and inflectional paradigms, and stuff.) To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
On Nov 22, 2005, at 2:56 AM, cardemaister wrote:You should read Taimni's comment on II 52 where he explains his view why "tataH kSiiyate prakaashaavaraNam" obviously does not refer to the same "light" (prakaasha) as "...tataH prakaashaavaraNa (prakaasha + aavaraNa)-kSayaH." (The forms "aavaraNa" and "aavaraNam" are not different from each other semantically. In compounds words, save the last one, are used in the stem form without the indicators of gender and inflectional paradigms, and stuff.) My understanding is what is being uncovered is the sattva of buddhi, i.e. the light of discrimination itself. Then viveka-jnana can come forth--transcendental discrimination. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 21, 2005, at 6:43 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 21, 2005, at 3:25 PM, sparaig wrote: It sounds like a completely different form of meditation. TM and the breath suspension episodes during TC are generally associated with resting. In THIS study, electrical activity during periods of complete immobility though their heart rates accelerated in almost perfect parallel with accelerations of their brain waves during moments of ecstasy. Can't comment on its relative effectiveness, but the metabolic effects sound different than TM, and there's no mention of breath suspension during the technique. Accelerated heart rate implies the exact opposite, in fact... It's definitely not TM, it's obviously a more advanced meditation Oh nods eagerly, obviously... and not aimed at relaxation, at least in the same sense that TM. Ecstasy dozens of times more powerful than orgasm can be profoundly relaxing. Which is why the heart rate went up so much of course... I know people who've passed out. Obviously a reliable sign of relaxation, rather than a stress- response... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
On Nov 22, 2005, at 9:41 AM, sparaig wrote: Oh nods eagerly, obviously... and not aimed at relaxation, at least in the same sense that TM. Ecstasy dozens of times more powerful than orgasm can be profoundly relaxing. Which is why the heart rate went up so much of course... I know people who've passed out. Obviously a reliable sign of relaxation, rather than a stress- response... In this case, more ecstasy/samadhi than she could handle. It's actually considered one of the signs of samadhi. IIRC Amma used to do the same thing. There was another example given on this list of someone Andrew Cohen had visited. I'll see if I can find it. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
On Nov 22, 2005, at 9:48 AM, Vaj wrote:Obviously a reliable sign of relaxation, rather than a stress-response...In this case, more ecstasy/samadhi than she could handle. It's actually considered one of the signs of samadhi. IIRC Amma used to do the same thing. There was another example given on this list of someone Andrew Cohen had visited. I'll see if I can find it.http://www.wie.org/j20/ajja.asp?ifr=srch To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 22, 2005, at 9:41 AM, sparaig wrote: Oh nods eagerly, obviously... and not aimed at relaxation, at least in the same sense that TM. Ecstasy dozens of times more powerful than orgasm can be profoundly relaxing. Which is why the heart rate went up so much of course... I know people who've passed out. Obviously a reliable sign of relaxation, rather than a stress- response... In this case, more ecstasy/samadhi than she could handle. It's actually considered one of the signs of samadhi. IIRC Amma used to do the same thing. There was another example given on this list of someone Andrew Cohen had visited. I'll see if I can find it. Some traditions may hold this, and perhaps they are correct. On the other hand, perhaps they're not. We're arguing from two different perspectives here. I realize that my perspective may be incorrect, or it might not be the whole story and that other stories may be equally or more valid. Even so, all stories are still stories, no matter how much validity they seem to have. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 22, 2005, at 9:48 AM, Vaj wrote: Obviously a reliable sign of relaxation, rather than a stress- response... In this case, more ecstasy/samadhi than she could handle. It's actually considered one of the signs of samadhi. IIRC Amma used to do the same thing. There was another example given on this list of someone Andrew Cohen had visited. I'll see if I can find it. http://www.wie.org/j20/ajja.asp?ifr=srch HOw do you know he fainted for the reason you said? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Fair play? Video games influencing politics. Click and talk back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/u8TY5A/tzNLAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
On Nov 22, 2005, at 10:35 AM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 22, 2005, at 9:48 AM, Vaj wrote: Obviously a reliable sign of relaxation, rather than a stress- response... In this case, more ecstasy/samadhi than she could handle. It's actually considered one of the signs of samadhi. IIRC Amma used to do the same thing. There was another example given on this list of someone Andrew Cohen had visited. I'll see if I can find it. http://www.wie.org/j20/ajja.asp?ifr=srch HOw do you know he fainted for the reason you said? Did you read the article? To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
On Nov 22, 2005, at 10:19 AM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 22, 2005, at 9:41 AM, sparaig wrote: Oh nods eagerly, obviously... and not aimed at relaxation, at least in the same sense that TM. Ecstasy dozens of times more powerful than orgasm can be profoundly relaxing. Which is why the heart rate went up so much of course... I know people who've passed out.Obviously a reliable sign of relaxation, rather than a stress- response... In this case, more ecstasy/samadhi than she could handle. It's actually considered one of the signs of samadhi. IIRC Amma used to do the same thing. There was another example given on this list of someone Andrew Cohen had visited. I'll see if I can find it. Some traditions may hold this, and perhaps they are correct. On the other hand, perhaps they're not. We're arguing from two different perspectives here. I realize that my perspective may be incorrect, or it might not be the whole story and that other stories may be equally or more valid. Even so, all stories are still stories, no matter how much validity they seem to have. It's just a sign.Some people will get a few of the signs, some will get all of them; it varies from person to person. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 22, 2005, at 10:19 AM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 22, 2005, at 9:41 AM, sparaig wrote: [...] Some traditions may hold this, and perhaps they are correct. On the other hand, perhaps they're not. We're arguing from two different perspectives here. I realize that my perspective may be incorrect, or it might not be the whole story and that other stories may be equally or more valid. Even so, all stories are still stories, no matter how much validity they seem to have. It's just a sign. Some people will get a few of the signs, some will get all of them; it varies from person to person. Perhaps it is a sign in one system and not another... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 22, 2005, at 10:35 AM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 22, 2005, at 9:48 AM, Vaj wrote: Obviously a reliable sign of relaxation, rather than a stress- response... In this case, more ecstasy/samadhi than she could handle. It's actually considered one of the signs of samadhi. IIRC Amma used to do the same thing. There was another example given on this list of someone Andrew Cohen had visited. I'll see if I can find it. http://www.wie.org/j20/ajja.asp?ifr=srch HOw do you know he fainted for the reason you said? Did you read the article? Yep. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's a part of Vyaasa's commentary on YS II 51 (baahyaabhyantara-viSayaakSepii caturthaH [praaNaayaamaH]) caturthastu shvaasa-prashvaasayor viSayaavadhaaraNaat krameNa bhuumijayaad ubhayaakSepa-puurvako gatyabhaavash caturthaH praaNaayaamaH ityayaM visheSa iti | We should think that the most crucial words, as it were, are these: caturthas tu shvaasa-prashvaasayor...gatyabhaavash which might be translated for instance like this: the fourth (pranayama) [is] stopping(? -- gati + a_bhaavas: motion -non-existence) of exhalation[and]-inhalation (shvaasa- prashvaasayoH) But it all depends on whether stopping or somesuch is a correct translation for gatyabhaavaH [gati + abhaavaH] in that context... Suspending, as in spontaneous breath suspension? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Retrievedb=pubmeddopt=Abstractlist_uids=7045911query_hl=2 : Psychosom Med. 1982 May;44(2):133-53. Related Articles, Links Breath suspension during the transcendental meditation technique. Farrow JT, Hebert JR. We observed, over four independent experiments, 565 criterion-meeting episodes of breath suspension in 40 subjects practicing the Transcendental Mediation technique (TM), a simple mental technique involving no breath control procedures. The frequency and length of these breath suspension episodes were substantially and significantly greater for TM subjects than for control subjects relaxing with eyes closed. Voluntary control of respiration was most probably eliminated as an explanation of ths phenomenon by the experimental design and by the use of a variety of nonintrusive respiration transducers, including a two-channel magnetometer, an indirect but accurate means of monitoring respiration. Many TM subjects report experience of a completely quiescent mental state characterized by maintained awareness in the absence of thought. Eleven TM subjects were instructed to press an event mark button after each episode of this pure consciousness experience. The temporal distribution of button presses was significantly related (p less than 10(-10) to the distribution of breath suspension episodes, indicating that breath suspension is a physiological correlate of some, but not all, episodes of the pure consciousness experience. In an extensive study of a single advanced mediator, pure consciousness experiences were also associated with reduced heart rate; high basal skin resistance; stable phasic skin resistance; markedly reduced mean respiration rate, mean minute ventilation and mean metabolic rate; and statistically consistent changes in EEG power and EEG coherence (an indicator of long-range spatial order in the nervous system). Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
On Nov 21, 2005, at 7:47 AM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's a part of Vyaasa's commentary on YS II 51(baahyaabhyantara-viSayaakSepii caturthaH [praaNaayaamaH])caturthastu shvaasa-prashvaasayorviSayaavadhaaraNaat krameNa bhuumijayaad ubhayaakSepa-puurvakogatyabhaavash caturthaH praaNaayaamaH ityayaM visheSa iti |We should think that the most crucial words, as it were,are these:caturthas tu shvaasa-prashvaasayor...gatyabhaavashwhich might be translated for instance like this:the fourth (pranayama) [is] stopping(? -- gati + a_bhaavas:motion -non-existence) of exhalation[and]-inhalation (shvaasa-prashvaasayoH)But it all depends on whether "stopping" or somesuch is a correcttranslation for "gatyabhaavaH" [gati + abhaavaH] in that context... Suspending, as in "spontaneous breath suspension?"http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrievedb=pubmeddopt=Abstractlist_uids=7045911query_hl=2: Psychosom Med. 1982 May;44(2):133-53. Related Articles, Links Breath suspension during the transcendental meditation technique.Farrow JT, Hebert JR.We observed, over four independent experiments, 565 criterion-meeting episodes of breath suspension in 40 subjects practicing the Transcendental Mediation technique (TM), a simple mental technique involving no breath control procedures. The frequency and length of these breath suspension episodes were substantially and significantly greater for TM subjects than for control subjects relaxing with eyes closed. Voluntary control of respiration was most probably eliminated as an explanation of ths phenomenon by the experimental design and by the use of a variety of nonintrusive respiration transducers, including a two-channel magnetometer, an indirect but accurate means of monitoring respiration. Many TM subjects report experience of a completely quiescent mental state characterized by maintained awareness in the absence of thought. Eleven TM subjects were instructed to press an event mark button after each episode of this pure consciousness experience. The temporal distribution of button presses was significantly related (p less than 10(-10) to the distribution of breath suspension episodes, indicating that breath suspension is a physiological correlate of some, but not all, episodes of the pure consciousness experience. In an extensive study of a single advanced mediator, pure consciousness experiences were also associated with reduced heart rate; high basal skin resistance; stable phasic skin resistance; markedly reduced mean respiration rate, mean minute ventilation and mean metabolic rate; and statistically consistent changes in EEG power and EEG coherence (an indicator of long-range spatial order in the nervous system).One of the signs that the fourth pranayama has been attained is paralysis. It is first perfect in various parts of the body. There are documented stories of students in the US who have perfected this to the point of being able to have minor surgery with very little local anesthesia. The other sign is prolonged suspension of breathing. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] One of the signs that the fourth pranayama has been attained is paralysis. Er, and this is different than simply not being aware of they body during samadhi, how? Spontaneous paralysis doesn't sound real great to me. The spontaneous episodes of breath suspension during samadhi in TM are easily interupted, by tapping someone on the shoulder or otherwise getting their attention. How do you show that someone is truely paralyzed in your world BTW? It is first perfect in various parts of the body. There are documented stories of students in the US who have perfected this to the point of being able to have minor surgery with very little local anesthesia. The other sign is prolonged suspension of breathing. Documentation in peer-reviewed journals? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 21, 2005, at 8:37 AM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] One of the signs that the fourth pranayama has been attained is paralysis. Er, and this is different than simply not being aware of they body during samadhi, how? Spontaneous paralysis doesn't sound real great to me. It is disconcerting at first, but a good teacher explains all this so there's no worry. The spontaneous episodes of breath suspension during samadhi in TM are easily interupted, by tapping someone on the shoulder or otherwise getting their attention. How do you show that someone is truely paralyzed in your world BTW? It's something you would have to experience, it's just the best way to describe it. So, where's the peer reviewed research on the phenomenon? It is first perfect in various parts of the body. There are documented stories of students in the US who have perfected this to the point of being able to have minor surgery with very little local anesthesia. The other sign is prolonged suspension of breathing. Documentation in peer-reviewed journals? Actually what I had seen was a signed letter from the physician who performed the surgery written to the teacher/guru himself. I was referring to the prolonged suspension of breathing. There are plenty of documented cases of peoplehaving surgury with no anesthetic. I'm hard-pressed to see why you think either is a sign of spiritualy, in and of itself. The breath suspension thing during TM is correlated with self-reports of samadhi, and THAT is why its so interesting from a spiritualand physiological point of view... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 21, 2005, at 8:37 AM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] One of the signs that the fourth pranayama has been attained is paralysis. Er, and this is different than simply not being aware of they body during samadhi, how? Spontaneous paralysis doesn't sound real great to me. It is disconcerting at first, but a good teacher explains all this so there's no worry. The spontaneous episodes of breath suspension during samadhi in TM are easily interupted, by tapping someone on the shoulder or otherwise getting their attention. How do you show that someone is truely paralyzed in your world BTW? It's something you would have to experience, it's just the best way to describe it. Seems to me what Lawson is pointing out is that spontaneous paralysis in the context of samadhi (pure transcendental consciousness, or turiya) doesn't make any sense. The instant one *tries* to move, one is no longer in that state. In other words, that one's muscles don't move in samadhi is a function of having no intention to move (or any other intention). There's no way to establish paralysis in turiya because there's no way to test it. There may be something to what you say, but you haven't described it well enough to avoid self- contradiction. It is first perfect in various parts of the body. There are documented stories of students in the US who have perfected this to the point of being able to have minor surgery with very little local anesthesia. The other sign is prolonged suspension of breathing. Documentation in peer-reviewed journals? Actually what I had seen was a signed letter from the physician who performed the surgery written to the teacher/guru himself. Paralysis and anesthesia are two different phenomena. One can be paralyzed without being anesthetized, and certainly locally anesthetized without being paralyzed. Further, *I've* had minor surgery with very little local anesthesia, without any meditative component. These terms are far too relative, depending on far too many individual factors, to be meaningful as you've described the situation. Again, there may be something to what you say, but you haven't presented it in a way that establishes anything. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
On Nov 21, 2005, at 8:49 AM, sparaig wrote: The spontaneous episodes of breath suspension during samadhi in TM are easily interupted, by tapping someone on the shoulder or otherwise getting their attention. How do you show that someone is truely paralyzed in your world BTW? It's something you would have to experience, it's just the best way to describe it. So, where's the peer reviewed research on the phenomenon?Why is this so important to you?It's more importantly part of the teaching. If you learn it, then you have the opportunity to no longer remain in doubt. Of course then perhaps you could perform a study if you liked.There will be an upcoming study on forms of meditation where this does occur. Honestly I don't know if past reports I'd heard of were published or not. I see things every now and then. While I find it interesting, it's not real important to me. What I am interested in is people perfecting it and passing it on (preferably for free). :-) It is first perfect in various parts of the body. There are documented stories of students in the US who have perfected this to the point of being able to have minor surgery with very little local anesthesia. The other sign is prolonged suspension of breathing.Documentation in peer-reviewed journals? Actually what I had seen was a signed letter from the physician who performed the surgery written to the teacher/guru himself. I was referring to the "prolonged suspension of breathing." There are plenty of documented cases of peoplehaving surgury with no anesthetic. I'm hard-pressed to see why you think either is a sign of spiritualy, in and of itself.I never said it was a sign of "spiritualy" (or spirituality). It is a sign of the fourth pranayama. The breath suspension thing during TM is correlated with self-reports of samadhi, and THAT is why its so interesting from a spiritualand physiological point of view... Their definition of samadhi. But not really. It was just to sell mantras dude. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
On Nov 21, 2005, at 9:00 AM, authfriend wrote:It's something you would have to experience, it's just the best way to describe it. Seems to me what Lawson is pointing out is that "spontaneous paralysis" in the context of samadhi (pure transcendental consciousness, or turiya) doesn't make any sense. The instant one *tries* to move, one is no longer in that state.That's sad. So much for dyeing the cloth. IMO many have been conditioned to believe that TM leads to "pure transcendental consciousness, or turiya". In other words, that one's muscles don't move in samadhi is a function of having no intention to move (or any other intention). There's no way to establish paralysis in turiya because there's no way to test it.You're describing something different. Sounds like you're describing samapatti (mental absorption into mantra). Experientially the sensation of paralysis is quite clear.You seem to be assuming that people cannot consciously enter samadhi--or the particular state where this paralysis occurs. There may be something to what you say, but you haven't described it well enough to avoid self- contradiction. It is first perfect in various parts of the body. There are documented stories of students in the US who have perfected this to the point of being able to have minor surgery with very little local anesthesia. The other sign is prolonged suspension of breathing. Documentation in peer-reviewed journals? Actually what I had seen was a signed letter from the physician who performed the surgery written to the teacher/guru himself. Paralysis and anesthesia are two different phenomena. One can be paralyzed without being anesthetized, and certainly locally anesthetized without being paralyzed. Further, *I've* had minor surgery with very little local anesthesia, without any meditative component. These terms are far too relative, depending on far too many individual factors, to be meaningful as you've described the situation. Again, there may be something to what you say, but you haven't presented it in a way that establishes anything. In the case I was discussing it was a painful form of nasal surgery . Thus the physician's letter and amazement. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 21, 2005, at 9:00 AM, authfriend wrote: [Vaj wrote:] It's something you would have to experience, it's just the best way to describe it. Seems to me what Lawson is pointing out is that spontaneous paralysis in the context of samadhi (pure transcendental consciousness, or turiya) doesn't make any sense. The instant one *tries* to move, one is no longer in that state. That's sad. So much for dyeing the cloth. IMO many have been conditioned to believe that TM leads to pure transcendental consciousness, or turiya. And your reasons for thinking turiya does not occur during TM are...? Dying the cloth refers to the integration of pure transcendental consciousness with the three ordinary states, but the integrated state is not turiya, of course. So I'm not sure why you even mention dying the cloth in this context. In other words, that one's muscles don't move in samadhi is a function of having no intention to move (or any other intention). There's no way to establish paralysis in turiya because there's no way to test it. You're describing something different. Sounds like you're describing samapatti (mental absorption into mantra). If what you're saying has any validity, then obviously we're not describing the same thing, as I went on to note. I'm trying to get you to be more precise so we can see what the differences are. Here's what I'm describing: The fourth state [turiya] is not that which is conscious of the subjective, nor that which is conscious of the objective, nor that which is conscious of both, nor that which is simple consciousness, nor that which is all-sentient mass, nor that which is all darkness. It is unseen, transcendent, the sole essence of the consciousness of self, the completion of the world.--Mandakya Upanishad Experientially the sensation of paralysis is quite clear. If there is any sensation of anything, it's not turiya, per the Mandakya Upanishad's definition. You seem to be assuming that people cannot consciously enter samadhi-- or the particular state where this paralysis occurs. No, I'm not assuming that. But if you're referring to entering turiya, then paralysis, as noted, doesn't make any sense. In turiya, there is no awareness *of* anything but awareness itself. Turiya is not object- oriented consciousness; there are no objects of perception (subjective, as of paralysis, or objective) in turiya. I *think* what you're describing is not turiya but an integrated state, what TM would call witnessing, in meditation. But then your comment above that I wasn't describing turiya makes no sense. snip Paralysis and anesthesia are two different phenomena. One can be paralyzed without being anesthetized, and certainly locally anesthetized without being paralyzed. Further, *I've* had minor surgery with very little local anesthesia, without any meditative component. These terms are far too relative, depending on far too many individual factors, to be meaningful as you've described the situation. Again, there may be something to what you say, but you haven't presented it in a way that establishes anything. In the case I was discussing it was a painful form of nasal surgery. Thus the physician's letter and amazement. That does sound unusual. Still doesn't explain why your spontaneous paralysis would induce spontaneous anesthesia, though, given the difference in the two phenomena. It almost sounds as though the poor guy could have been paralyzed while still experiencing extreme pain, and the physician thought the fact that he wasn't moving or screaming was because he wasn't feeling the pain! Perhaps paralyzed isn't the correct term in this case. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
On Nov 21, 2005, at 10:11 AM, authfriend wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 21, 2005, at 9:00 AM, authfriend wrote: [Vaj wrote:] It's something you would have to experience, it's just the best way to describe it. Seems to me what Lawson is pointing out is that "spontaneous paralysis" in the context of samadhi (pure transcendental consciousness, or turiya) doesn't make any sense. The instant one *tries* to move, one is no longer in that state. That's sad. So much for dyeing the cloth. IMO many have been conditioned to believe that TM leads to "pure transcendental consciousness, or turiya". And your reasons for thinking turiya does not occur during TM are...? "Dying the cloth" refers to the integration of pure transcendental consciousness with the three ordinary states, but the integrated state is not turiya, of course. So I'm not sure why you even mention dying the cloth in this context. In other words, that one's muscles don't move in samadhi is a function of having no intention to move (or any other intention). There's no way to establish paralysis in turiya because there's no way to test it. You're describing something different. Sounds like you're describing samapatti (mental absorption into mantra). If what you're saying has any validity, then obviously we're not describing the same thing, as I went on to note. I'm trying to get you to be more precise so we can see what the differences are. Here's what I'm describing: "The fourth state [turiya] is not that which is conscious of the subjective, nor that which is conscious of the objective, nor that which is conscious of both, nor that which is simple consciousness, nor that which is all-sentient mass, nor that which is all darkness. It is unseen, transcendent, the sole essence of the consciousness of self, the completion of the world."--Mandakya Upanishad Experientially the sensation of paralysis is quite clear. If there is any "sensation" of anything, it's not turiya, per the Mandakya Upanishad's definition. You seem to be assuming that people cannot consciously enter samadhi-- or the particular state where this paralysis occurs. No, I'm not assuming that. But if you're referring to entering turiya, then "paralysis," as noted, doesn't make any sense. In turiya, there is no awareness *of* anything but awareness itself. Turiya is not object- oriented consciousness; there are no objects of perception (subjective, as of paralysis, or objective) in turiya. I *think* what you're describing is not turiya but an integrated state, what TM would call "witnessing," in meditation. But then your comment above that I wasn't describing turiya makes no sense. You seem to be confusing the fourth pranayama with turiya. The fourth pranayama is not taught in TM. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 21, 2005, at 10:11 AM, authfriend wrote: [...] I *think* what you're describing is not turiya but an integrated state, what TM would call witnessing, in meditation. But then your comment above that I wasn't describing turiya makes no sense. You seem to be confusing the fourth pranayama with turiya. The fourth pranayama is not taught in TM. True, but perhaps it can be interpreted that the fourth pranayama converges to what TMers call transcendental consciousness since the description of Breath suspension during TM's pure consciousness state seems to be identical to descriptions of the fourth pranayama. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
On Nov 21, 2005, at 11:42 AM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 21, 2005, at 10:11 AM, authfriend wrote: [...] I *think* what you're describing is not turiya but an integrated state, what TM would call "witnessing," in meditation. But then your comment above that I wasn't describing turiya makes no sense. You seem to be confusing the fourth pranayama with turiya. The fourth pranayama is not taught in TM. True, but perhaps it can be interpreted that the "fourth pranayama" converges to what TMers call "transcendental consciousness" since the description of "Breath suspension" during TM's "pure consciousness" state seems to be identical to descriptions of the fourth pranayama. That experience is a helpful prerequisite for learning the fourth pranayama. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
Judy Stein writes: No, I'm not assuming that. But if you're referring to entering turiya, then paralysis, as noted, doesn't make any sense. In turiya, there is no awareness *of* anything but awareness itself. Turiya is not object- oriented consciousness; there are no objects of perception (subjective, as of paralysis, or objective) in turiya. I *think* what you're describing is not turiya but an integrated state, what TM would call witnessing, in meditation. But then your comment above that I wasn't describing turiya makes no sense. Tom T writes: It has been my experience that the beginning stages of witnessing were that of paralysis. Not only was there paralysis but there was knowledge that I was trapped inside this body and a good deal of fear. There was enough fear at the beginning to awaken in a cold sweat. As I became accustomed to this awareness of awareness the fear stopped and the understanding became clear that I was wide awake inside but had zero connection to the outside world. Gradually the awareness grew to include the outside world and encompass it and then it became clear that awareness does not need the senses to know beyond the body. Then I could be awake inside and watch dreams start, run their course and then stop and still I was wide awake inside totally sitting in the darkness and silence. It no longer mattered whether the conventional senses worked because the awareness was larger than this body. The most common awareness was that of the same old bedroom, the same old bed and the same old guy lying on the bed snoring his brains out. This gradually led to the ramping down of the bedroom and allowing that to be like background noise that is just there and doesn't need any attending to. After a longer period I have realized that the awareness has encompassed a fairly large amount of creation and that also just runs in the background like music in the background. There but not demanding all my attention. Tom Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 21, 2005, at 11:42 AM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 21, 2005, at 10:11 AM, authfriend wrote: [...] I *think* what you're describing is not turiya but an integrated state, what TM would call witnessing, in meditation. But then your comment above that I wasn't describing turiya makes no sense. You seem to be confusing the fourth pranayama with turiya. The fourth pranayama is not taught in TM. True, but perhaps it can be interpreted that the fourth pranayama converges to what TMers call transcendental consciousness since the description of Breath suspension during TM's pure consciousness state seems to be identical to descriptions of the fourth pranayama. That experience is a helpful prerequisite for learning the fourth pranayama. So what does it mean when people witness in the TM sense for years on end? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
On Nov 21, 2005, at 12:42 PM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 21, 2005, at 11:42 AM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:On Nov 21, 2005, at 10:11 AM, authfriend wrote: [...] I *think* what you're describing is not turiya but an integrated state, what TM would call "witnessing," in meditation. But then your comment above that I wasn't describing turiya makes no sense. You seem to be confusing the fourth pranayama with turiya. The fourth pranayama is not taught in TM.True, but perhaps it can be interpreted that the "fourth pranayama" converges to what TMers call "transcendental consciousness" since the description of "Breath suspension" during TM's "pure consciousness" state seems to be identical to descriptions of the fourth pranayama. That experience is a helpful prerequisite for learning the fourth pranayama. So what does it mean when people "witness" in the TM sense for years on end? Attachment to an idea of enlightenment which ego is glad to provide. Go tell all your friends. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Judy Stein writes: No, I'm not assuming that. But if you're referring to entering turiya, then paralysis, as noted, doesn't make any sense. In turiya, there is no awareness *of* anything but awareness itself. Turiya is not object- oriented consciousness; there are no objects of perception (subjective, as of paralysis, or objective) in turiya. I *think* what you're describing is not turiya but an integrated state, what TM would call witnessing, in meditation. But then your comment above that I wasn't describing turiya makes no sense. Tom T writes: It has been my experience that the beginning stages of witnessing were that of paralysis. Not only was there paralysis but there was knowledge that I was trapped inside this body and a good deal of fear. But that wouldn't be turiya. (And you're talking only about witnessing during sleep, right?) There was enough fear at the beginning to awaken in a cold sweat. As I became accustomed to this awareness of awareness the fear stopped and the understanding became clear that I was wide awake inside but had zero connection to the outside world. Gradually the awareness grew to include the outside world and encompass it and then it became clear that awareness does not need the senses to know beyond the body. Then I could be awake inside and watch dreams start, run their course and then stop and still I was wide awake inside totally sitting in the darkness and silence. It no longer mattered whether the conventional senses worked because the awareness was larger than this body. The most common awareness was that of the same old bedroom, the same old bed and the same old guy lying on the bed snoring his brains out. This gradually led to the ramping down of the bedroom and allowing that to be like background noise that is just there and doesn't need any attending to. After a longer period I have realized that the awareness has encompassed a fairly large amount of creation and that also just runs in the background like music in the background. There but not demanding all my attention. Tom Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- AIDS in India: A lurking bomb. Click and help stop AIDS now. http://us.click.yahoo.com/VpTY2A/lzNLAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, cardemaister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's a part of Vyaasa's commentary on YS II 51 (baahyaabhyantara-viSayaakSepii caturthaH [praaNaayaamaH]) caturthastu shvaasa-prashvaasayor viSayaavadhaaraNaat krameNa bhuumijayaad ubhayaakSepa-puurvako gatyabhaavash caturthaH praaNaayaamaH ityayaM visheSa iti | We should think that the most crucial words, as it were, are these: caturthas tu shvaasa-prashvaasayor...gatyabhaavash which might be translated for instance like this: the fourth (pranayama) [is] stopping(? -- gati + a_bhaavas: motion -non-existence) of exhalation[and]-inhalation (shvaasa- prashvaasayoH) But it all depends on whether stopping or somesuch is a correct translation for gatyabhaavaH [gati + abhaavaH] in that context... Suspending, as in spontaneous breath suspension? Yes, in my *opinion* it's exactly that... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi? cmd=Retrievedb=pubmeddopt=Abstractlist_uids=7045911query_hl=2 : Psychosom Med. 1982 May;44(2):133-53. Related Articles, Links Breath suspension during the transcendental meditation technique. Farrow JT, Hebert JR. We observed, over four independent experiments, 565 criterion- meeting episodes of breath suspension in 40 subjects practicing the Transcendental Mediation technique (TM), a simple mental technique involving no breath control procedures. The frequency and length of these breath suspension episodes were substantially and significantly greater for TM subjects than for control subjects relaxing with eyes closed. Voluntary control of respiration was most probably eliminated as an explanation of ths phenomenon by the experimental design and by the use of a variety of nonintrusive respiration transducers, including a two-channel magnetometer, an indirect but accurate means of monitoring respiration. Many TM subjects report experience of a completely quiescent mental state characterized by maintained awareness in the absence of thought. Eleven TM subjects were instructed to press an event mark button after each episode of this pure consciousness experience. The temporal distribution of button presses was significantly related (p less than 10(-10) to the distribution of breath suspension episodes, indicating that breath suspension is a physiological correlate of some, but not all, episodes of the pure consciousness experience. In an extensive study of a single advanced mediator, pure consciousness experiences were also associated with reduced heart rate; high basal skin resistance; stable phasic skin resistance; markedly reduced mean respiration rate, mean minute ventilation and mean metabolic rate; and statistically consistent changes in EEG power and EEG coherence (an indicator of long-range spatial order in the nervous system). Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Fair play? Video games influencing politics. Click and talk back! http://us.click.yahoo.com/u8TY5A/tzNLAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 21, 2005, at 10:11 AM, authfriend wrote: snip I *think* what you're describing is not turiya but an integrated state, what TM would call witnessing, in meditation. But then your comment above that I wasn't describing turiya makes no sense. You seem to be confusing the fourth pranayama with turiya. The fourth pranayama is not taught in TM. guffaw In that case, everything else you've said in your exchange with me was a non sequitur. All those insults, gone to waste... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
On Nov 21, 2005, at 1:15 PM, authfriend wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 21, 2005, at 10:11 AM, authfriend wrote: snip I *think* what you're describing is not turiya but an integrated state, what TM would call "witnessing," in meditation. But then your comment above that I wasn't describing turiya makes no sense. You seem to be confusing the fourth pranayama with turiya. The fourth pranayama is not taught in TM. guffaw In that case, everything else you've said in your exchange with me was a non sequitur. All those insults, gone to waste... LOL, whatever Judy... To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
On Nov 21, 2005, at 8:49 AM, sparaig wrote: The spontaneous episodes of breath suspension during samadhi in TM are easily interupted, by tapping someone on the shoulder or otherwise getting their attention. How do you show that someone is truely paralyzed in your world BTW? It's something you would have to experience, it's just the best way to describe it. So, where's the peer reviewed research on the phenomenon? Apparently there is and it's been going on a long time--since at least 1955:"The most accomplished among these seven subjects, moreover, exhibited "progressive and very spectacular modifications" in their EEG records during their deepest meditations, including recurrent beta rhythms of 18-20 cycles per second in the Rolandic area of the brain, a generalized fast activity of small amplitude as high as 40-45 cycles per second with occasional amplitudes reaching 30 to 50 microvolts, and the reappearance of slower alpha waves after samadhi, or ecstasy, ended. In summarizing their study, Das and Gastaut concluded that: The modifications [we] recorded during very deep meditation are much more dramatic than those known up till now, which leads us to suppose that western subjects are far from being able to attain the yogi state of mental concentration.It is probable that this supreme concentration of attention . . . is responsible for the perfect insensibility of the yogi during samadhi; this insensibility, accompanied by immobility and pallor often led people to describe this state as sleep, lethargy, anesthesia, or coma. The electroencephalographic evidence here described contradicts such opinions and suggests that a state of intense generalized cortical stimulation is sufficient to explain such states without having to invoke associated processes of diffuse or local inhibition (Das and Gastaut, 1955)."http://www.noetic.org/research/medbiblio/ch1.htm To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 21, 2005, at 8:49 AM, sparaig wrote: The spontaneous episodes of breath suspension during samadhi in TM are easily interupted, by tapping someone on the shoulder or otherwise getting their attention. How do you show that someone is truely paralyzed in your world BTW? It's something you would have to experience, it's just the best way to describe it. So, where's the peer reviewed research on the phenomenon? Apparently there is and it's been going on a long time--since at least 1955: The most accomplished among these seven subjects, moreover, exhibited progressive and very spectacular modifications in their EEG records during their deepest meditations, including recurrent beta rhythms of 18-20 cycles per second in the Rolandic area of the brain, a generalized fast activity of small amplitude as high as 40-45 cycles per second with occasional amplitudes reaching 30 to 50 microvolts, and the reappearance of slower alpha waves after samadhi, or ecstasy, ended. In summarizing their study, Das and Gastaut concluded that: The modifications [we] recorded during very deep meditation are much more dramatic than those known up till now, which leads us to suppose that western subjects are far from being able to attain the yogi state of mental concentration. It is probable that this supreme concentration of attention . . . is responsible for the perfect insensibility of the yogi during samadhi; this insensibility, accompanied by immobility and pallor often led people to describe this state as sleep, lethargy, anesthesia, or coma. The electroencephalographic evidence here described contradicts such opinions and suggests that a state of intense generalized cortical stimulation is sufficient to explain such states without having to invoke associated processes of diffuse or local inhibition (Das and Gastaut, 1955). http://www.noetic.org/research/medbiblio/ch1.htm ITs really hard to generalize from an article from 1955. Scientific apparatus and techniques have matured greatly since then. Also, how do you know it was the specific technique you've been referring to? Even if given the same name, do you know if the teachers were from the same tradition? Telephone effect and all that... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
On Nov 21, 2005, at 3:15 PM, sparaig wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 21, 2005, at 8:49 AM, sparaig wrote:The spontaneous episodes of breath suspension during samadhi in TM are easily interupted, by tapping someone on the shoulder or otherwise getting their attention. How do you show that someone is truely paralyzed in your world BTW? It's something you would have to experience, it's just the best way to describe it. So, where's the peer reviewed research on the phenomenon? Apparently there is and it's been going on a long time--since at least 1955: "The most accomplished among these seven subjects, moreover, exhibited "progressive and very spectacular modifications" in their EEG records during their deepest meditations, including recurrent beta rhythms of 18-20 cycles per second in the Rolandic area of the brain, a generalized fast activity of small amplitude as high as 40-45 cycles per second with occasional amplitudes reaching 30 to 50 microvolts, and the reappearance of slower alpha waves after samadhi, or ecstasy, ended. In summarizing their study, Das and Gastaut concluded that: The modifications [we] recorded during very deep meditation are much more dramatic than those known up till now, which leads us to suppose that western subjects are far from being able to attain the yogi state of mental concentration. It is probable that this supreme concentration of attention . . . is responsible for the perfect insensibility of the yogi during samadhi; this insensibility, accompanied by immobility and pallor often led people to describe this state as sleep, lethargy, anesthesia, or coma. The electroencephalographic evidence here described contradicts such opinions and suggests that a state of intense generalized cortical stimulation is sufficient to explain such states without having to invoke associated processes of diffuse or local inhibition (Das and Gastaut, 1955)."http://www.noetic.org/research/medbiblio/ch1.htm ITs really hard to generalize from an article from 1955. Scientific apparatus and techniques have matured greatly since then. Also, how do you know it was the specific technique you've been referring to? Even if given the same name, do you know if the teachers were from the same tradition? Telephone effect and all that... It's just an example from 1955 describing samadhi and using virtually identical adjectives. Take it for what you will--the yogic tradition has been familiar with these adjectives from experience for much longer than 1955. It's just part of the way it is taught, when it's taught fully. I liked Rick's example he gave of the guru M. took his students to who exhibited the same state. M. admitted his students could not do this. Still can't or I'm sure we'd see it being used to market falling sales :-).Recent research has been even more provocative IMO. It's all interesting. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' SPONSORED LINKS Maharishi university of management Maharishi mahesh yogi Ramana maharshi YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS Visit your group "FairfieldLife" on the web. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 21, 2005, at 8:49 AM, sparaig wrote: The spontaneous episodes of breath suspension during samadhi in TM are easily interupted, by tapping someone on the shoulder or otherwise getting their attention. How do you show that someone is truely paralyzed in your world BTW? It's something you would have to experience, it's just the best way to describe it. So, where's the peer reviewed research on the phenomenon? Apparently there is and it's been going on a long time--since at least 1955: The most accomplished among these seven subjects, moreover, exhibited progressive and very spectacular modifications in their EEG records during their deepest meditations, including recurrent beta rhythms of 18-20 cycles per second in the Rolandic area of the brain, a generalized fast activity of small amplitude as high as 40-45 cycles per second with occasional amplitudes reaching 30 to 50 microvolts, and the reappearance of slower alpha waves after samadhi, or ecstasy, ended. In summarizing their study, Das and Gastaut concluded that: The modifications [we] recorded during very deep meditation are much more dramatic than those known up till now, which leads us to suppose that western subjects are far from being able to attain the yogi state of mental concentration. It is probable that this supreme concentration of attention . . . is responsible for the perfect insensibility of the yogi during samadhi; this insensibility, accompanied by immobility and pallor often led people to describe this state as sleep, lethargy, anesthesia, or coma. The electroencephalographic evidence here described contradicts such opinions and suggests that a state of intense generalized cortical stimulation is sufficient to explain such states without having to invoke associated processes of diffuse or local inhibition (Das and Gastaut, 1955). http://www.noetic.org/research/medbiblio/ch1.htm It sounds like a completely different form of meditation. TM and the breath suspension episodes during TC are generally associated with resting. In THIS study, electrical activity during periods of complete immobility though their heart rates accelerated in almost perfect parallel with accelerations of their brain waves during moments of ecstasy. Can't comment on its relative effectiveness, but the metabolic effects sound different than TM, and there's no mention of breath suspension during the technique. Accelerated heart rate implies the exact opposite, in fact... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 21, 2005, at 3:15 PM, sparaig wrote: [...] http://www.noetic.org/research/medbiblio/ch1.htm ITs really hard to generalize from an article from 1955. Scientific apparatus and techniques have matured greatly since then. Also, how do you know it was the specific technique you've been referring to? Even if given the same name, do you know if the teachers were from the same tradition? Telephone effect and all that... It's just an example from 1955 describing samadhi and using virtually identical adjectives. Take it for what you will--the yogic tradition has been familiar with these adjectives from experience for much longer than 1955. It's just part of the way it is taught, when it's taught fully. I liked Rick's example he gave of the guru M. took his students to who exhibited the same state. M. admitted his students could not do this. Still can't or I'm sure we'd see it being used to market falling sales :-). Recent research has been even more provocative IMO. It's all interesting. You snipt the part in that study concerning accelerated heart rate and certainly NO mention was made of breath suspension. In that entire book, the only episodes of breath suspension mentioned inany study are for TM. This doesn't prove anything save that you were willing to snip out of context to try and prove your point, not that I am surprised, mind you... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
On Nov 21, 2005, at 3:25 PM, sparaig wrote: It sounds like a completely different form of meditation. TM and the breath suspension episodes during TC are generally associated with resting. In THIS study, electrical activity during periods of complete immobility though their heart rates accelerated in almost perfect parallel with accelerations of their brain waves during moments of ecstasy. Can't comment on its relative effectiveness, but the metabolic effects sound different than TM, and there's no mention of breath suspension during the technique. Accelerated heart rate implies the exact opposite, in fact... It's definitely not TM, it's obviously a more advanced meditation and not aimed at relaxation, at least in the same sense that TM. Ecstasy dozens of times more powerful than orgasm can be profoundly relaxing. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
On Nov 21, 2005, at 3:27 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 21, 2005, at 3:15 PM, sparaig wrote: [...] http://www.noetic.org/research/medbiblio/ch1.htm ITs really hard to generalize from an article from 1955. Scientific apparatus and techniques have matured greatly since then. Also, how do you know it was the specific technique you've been referring to? Even if given the same name, do you know if the teachers were from the same tradition? Telephone effect and all that... It's just an example from 1955 describing samadhi and using virtually identical adjectives. Take it for what you will--the yogic tradition has been familiar with these adjectives from experience for much longer than 1955. It's just part of the way it is taught, when it's taught fully. I liked Rick's example he gave of the guru M. took his students to who exhibited the same state. M. admitted his students could not do this. Still can't or I'm sure we'd see it being used to market falling sales :-). Recent research has been even more provocative IMO. It's all interesting. You snipt the part in that study concerning accelerated heart rate and certainly NO mention was made of breath suspension. In that entire book, the only episodes of breath suspension mentioned inany study are for TM. This doesn't prove anything save that you were willing to snip out of context to try and prove your point, not that I am surprised, mind you... Uh, the point wasn't breath suspension, it was about samadhi and paralysis, etc. There are articles in there as well of people reducing breath considerably--even to the extent of being buried underground. Advanced meditators will often only breath once a minute, the breath gets that subtle. Not that any of this is really important to the practitioners, it's not. If I am given the signs of a certain meditation practice, the last thing my teacher would ask for is an EEG or breath rate. If the signs arise, then practice is proceeding. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- AIDS in India: A lurking bomb. Click and help stop AIDS now. http://us.click.yahoo.com/VpTY2A/lzNLAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 21, 2005, at 3:25 PM, sparaig wrote: It sounds like a completely different form of meditation. TM and the breath suspension episodes during TC are generally associated with resting. In THIS study, electrical activity during periods of complete immobility though their heart rates accelerated in almost perfect parallel with accelerations of their brain waves during moments of ecstasy. Can't comment on its relative effectiveness, but the metabolic effects sound different than TM, and there's no mention of breath suspension during the technique. Accelerated heart rate implies the exact opposite, in fact... It's definitely not TM, it's obviously a more advanced meditation Oh nods eagerly, obviously... and not aimed at relaxation, at least in the same sense that TM. Ecstasy dozens of times more powerful than orgasm can be profoundly relaxing. Which is why the heart rate went up so much of course... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- 1.2 million kids a year are victims of human trafficking. Stop slavery. http://us.click.yahoo.com/WpTY2A/izNLAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
On Nov 21, 2005, at 6:43 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 21, 2005, at 3:25 PM, sparaig wrote: It sounds like a completely different form of meditation. TM and the breath suspension episodes during TC are generally associated with resting. In THIS study, electrical activity during periods of complete immobility though their heart rates accelerated in almost perfect parallel with accelerations of their brain waves during moments of ecstasy. Can't comment on its relative effectiveness, but the metabolic effects sound different than TM, and there's no mention of breath suspension during the technique. Accelerated heart rate implies the exact opposite, in fact... It's definitely not TM, it's obviously a more advanced meditation Oh nods eagerly, obviously... and not aimed at relaxation, at least in the same sense that TM. Ecstasy dozens of times more powerful than orgasm can be profoundly relaxing. Which is why the heart rate went up so much of course... I know people who've passed out. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To truly understand what this means, you should get an authentic teacher to explain the rather detailed commentary of the secrets in this passage contained in the yoga-siddhanta-chandrika. The comments on this sutra also reveal why the correct route around the siddhis is contained in this sutra. FWIW, the results of praaNaayaama or perhaps specifically caturtha according to Patañjali are as follows: 52. tataH kSiiyate prakaashaavaraNam Taimni's translation : From that is dissolved the covering of light. BTW, the second part of the suutra following YF (III 40-something) is a paraphrase of II 52: ...tataH prakaashaavaraNa-kSayaH. It's the same sentence as the nominal (without a finite verb form) one II 52(finite verb forms, above kSiiyate, are very rare in YS, perhaps in many other suutras, too). The second result: 53. dhaaraNaasu ca yogyataa manasaH. IMO, the conjunction ca (and) implies the adverb tataH (from that) from 52. Translation: And [from caturthaH?] the fitness of the mind for concentration [dhaaraNaa, which of course is the first component of saMyama]. I'm not sure what you mean by route around the siddhis, but at least Patañjali doesn't seem to think like that if you mean by it what I think you mean. You should read Taimni's comment on II 52 where he explains his view why tataH kSiiyate prakaashaavaraNam obviously does not refer to the same light (prakaasha) as ...tataH prakaashaavaraNa (prakaasha + aavaraNa)-kSayaH. (The forms aavaraNa and aavaraNam are not different from each other semantically. In compounds words, save the last one, are used in the stem form without the indicators of gender and inflectional paradigms, and stuff.) On Nov 4, 2005, at 6:48 AM, cardemaister wrote: What the...is the fourth (caturtha) [praaNaayaama]? baahyaabhyantara-viSayaakSepii caturthaH (II 51). Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Fourth?
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- cardemaister [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What the...is the fourth (caturtha) [praaNaayaama]? baahyaabhyantara-viSayaakSepii caturthaH (II 51). So that's what it is! I've been wondering about that for decades now. Thank you! ;-) The Sanskrit line wasn't meant to be an answer, it's just for completeness' sake [is that a Japanese alcoholic beverage, or stuff?]...so to speak! :) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your home page http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/JjtolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
