Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Edward Franks]

On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 06:14  PM, Jim Leonard wrote:


Edward Franks wrote:



1. Adventure was the first computer game, yes?


Nope.  :)  Space War was (circa 1960).  MIT students meet the 
PDP-1
and the cathode-ray tube.

I meant PERSONAL computer.  Adventure was playable on CPM machines if 
memory
serves; it was certainly the first game I ever played (on an Osborne) 
in 1979.

	There was also a CP/M game called Ladder (platform jumping).  If you 
include any BASIC games (Star Trek, Wumpus, etc.), then it would be 
difficult determining just what the first game was.  The first 
commercial game would probably easier to figure out.

BTW, it is 90% certain RPG will join the main list of genres at 
MobyGames, so
I thank all of you for taking time to illustrate your viewpoints.

	Cool.  :-D


(But I am not budging on King's Quest being primarily IF+G, because 
honestly
that is what it is.  The input is all text (moving your character can 
be done
with joystick but that is all a joystick can do in that game) and the 
output
is text and graphics, so that pretty much clinches it.)

	I'm not fussed either way when it comes to King's Quest.

--

Edward Franks


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RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Feldhamer, Stuart]

Sounds good to me. BTW, I apologize if my original message was a bit
argumentative.

On another note, I noticed that there is a separate genre for
racing/driving. Shouldn't games in that category fall under either
Simulation or Sports? The racing/driving genre sticks out like a sore thumb
to me amongst the other genres listed.

Stuart

-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 7:17 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1


Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
> 
> Then again, if you want to invent new terminology, that's your business I
> suppose.

No, it isn't, which is why this entire discussion was initiated.  You (and
everyone else here) will be happy to know that I am "fixing" the system at
MobyGames (the first and hopefully only time in our 4-year history).

No, I definitely don't want to invent new terminology.  MobyGames would be a
sham if I did :-)
-- 
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The world's most comprehensive gaming database project.


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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
> 
> Then again, if you want to invent new terminology, that's your business I
> suppose.

No, it isn't, which is why this entire discussion was initiated.  You (and
everyone else here) will be happy to know that I am "fixing" the system at
MobyGames (the first and hopefully only time in our 4-year history).

No, I definitely don't want to invent new terminology.  MobyGames would be a
sham if I did :-)
-- 
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The world's most comprehensive gaming database project.


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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Edward Franks wrote:
> 
> > 1. Adventure was the first computer game, yes?
> 
> Nope.  :)  Space War was (circa 1960).  MIT students meet the PDP-1
> and the cathode-ray tube.

I meant PERSONAL computer.  Adventure was playable on CPM machines if memory
serves; it was certainly the first game I ever played (on an Osborne) in 1979.

BTW, it is 90% certain RPG will join the main list of genres at MobyGames, so
I thank all of you for taking time to illustrate your viewpoints.

(But I am not budging on King's Quest being primarily IF+G, because honestly
that is what it is.  The input is all text (moving your character can be done
with joystick but that is all a joystick can do in that game) and the output
is text and graphics, so that pretty much clinches it.)
 
> > 2. The Adventure genre encompasses *all* fantasy-style gaming.  So RPG
> > fits
> > into it, yes?  If not, why?
> 
> No, because you you can have non-fantasy based RPGs.  Wasteland and
> Fallout for example.  (I'm assuming that you are using the term fantasy
> to mean the generic pseudo-medieval Tolkien-esque settings.)

No, this was badly worded on my part.  I meant all "I am playing a character
other than myself" games, which includes everything from King's Quest to Zyll
to Fallout.  

Anyway, I'm just defending myself since I don't want to look like a newbie who
didn't know what Spacewar and non-fantasy-themed adventures were :-)
-- 
http://www.MobyGames.com/
The world's most comprehensive gaming database project.



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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Edward Franks]

On Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 11:18  AM, Marco Thorek wrote:
[Snip]

You know I'm all for drawing a line between RPGs and Adventures, but is
the focus of the former really on fighting? It usually is a component 
of
a RPG, but the focus? The Ultimas beginning with IV had conversation as
a strong component, in Planescape: Torment you could advance your
character through the right decisions in conversations.

	Though experience-points-from-combat is the D&D way of advancing your 
character, I'd say that RPGs focus more on improving your character's 
innate abilities (levels/stats/skill percentages) where as in 
adventures your character stays pretty much the same.  You could say 
that adventure games have you pick up items instead, but you do that as 
well in RPGs.

	I'd stay that the two big sub-genres of RPGs are 
hack-and-slash/combat/action subclass (Wizardry 1, Might and Magic, 
Diablo) and the character/story/this-is-you[1] subclass (Ultima IV - 
VII, Planescape: Torment).  Some games, Fallout, allows you to do 
either equally in a single game.

	I'd also say that Adventure games are much more likely to be linear.  
At least you tend to know what you need to do next and have areas 
completely closed off until you get to that point.  Where as RPGs tend 
to be more open-ended (Morrowind) and you can do things pretty much in 
any order you like.  Though to make RPGs more 'accessible' you have 
games like Dungeon Siege that have you run a single path from start to 
finish with no real branching or back-tracking.


[1]  In the pen-n-paper RPG world this is called role-playing as 
opposed to the hack-n-slash end of the spectrum.  I don't know if would 
want a Role-Playing -> Role-Playing classification.  That smacks too 
close to the one time proposed Homo Sapiens Sapiens  classification for 
modern man.

--

Edward Franks


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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Marco Thorek]

Chris Newman schrieb:
> 
> Yes, buy it! I have two copies, trade paperback and HC. This ties in to
> a post I made a couple of months ago about everyone's top five books
> about the gaming industry and/or PC history. Hackers is on my list.

What would the other four be?

Marco

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Marco Thorek]

Stuart Feldhamer schrieb:
> 
> Jim,
> 
> Your system is very interesting but I don't like it. Maybe according to YOUR
> definition of Adventure it encompasses all fantasy-style gaming, but this is
> not the commonly accepted definition of the genre. As I see it, adventures
> are games where the focus is on solving puzzles within the context of a
> story. RPGs are games where the focus is on fighting, and in the process,
> building up your characters. I've played games like Ultima, and Pool of
> Radiance, and I liked them to a point, but I got bored with the battles
> every two minutes. The battles are not incidental, but rather are the main
> component of the gameplay. A game with this type of gameplay mechanics would
> not be considered an adventure by any stretch of the imagination.

You know I'm all for drawing a line between RPGs and Adventures, but is
the focus of the former really on fighting? It usually is a component of
a RPG, but the focus? The Ultimas beginning with IV had conversation as
a strong component, in Planescape: Torment you could advance your
character through the right decisions in conversations.

Marco

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Chris Newman]

Yes, buy it! I have two copies, trade paperback and HC. This ties in to
a post I made a couple of months ago about everyone's top five books
about the gaming industry and/or PC history. Hackers is on my list.


Edward Franks wrote:
> 
> On Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 09:37  AM, Chris Newman wrote:
> 
> > Hackers, by Steven Levy is a great book, and has an entire chapter on
> > the creation of Spacewar. The entire book is online, and here is a link
> > to the spacewar chapter.
> >
> > http://www.stanford.edu/group/mmdd/SiliconValley/Levy/
> > Hackers.1984.book/Chapter3.html
> 
> Levy's web page on the book
>  points people to
> Amazon.  At $10.50 it is a great bargain.
> 
> --
> 
> Edward Franks
> 
> --
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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Edward Franks]

On Thursday, January 23, 2003, at 09:37  AM, Chris Newman wrote:


Hackers, by Steven Levy is a great book, and has an entire chapter on
the creation of Spacewar. The entire book is online, and here is a link
to the spacewar chapter.

http://www.stanford.edu/group/mmdd/SiliconValley/Levy/ 
Hackers.1984.book/Chapter3.html

	Levy's web page on the book  
 points people to  
Amazon.  At $10.50 it is a great bargain.

--

Edward Franks


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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Chris Newman]

Hackers, by Steven Levy is a great book, and has an entire chapter on
the creation of Spacewar. The entire book is online, and here is a link
to the spacewar chapter.

http://www.stanford.edu/group/mmdd/SiliconValley/Levy/Hackers.1984.book/Chapter3.html


Edward Franks wrote:
> 
> On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 05:26  PM, Jim Leonard wrote:
> [Snip
> > You've presented some strong arguments and I'm going to have to think
> > about
> > them before coming up with a rebuttal.  But first let me pose some
> > situations
> > and questions:
> >
> > 1. Adventure was the first computer game, yes?
> 
> Nope.  :)  Space War was (circa 1960).  MIT students meet the PDP-1
> and the cathode-ray tube.
> 
> >   It was not an RPG.  So
> > computer adventure games came before computer RPGs, right?
> 
> Yes.  However, adventure games came from pen-n-paper RPGs.  From the
> _first_ pen-n-paper RPG to be exact which started a whole new game
> genre.  The reason I'm pointing stuff out that is outside computer
> games is that in the case of Adventure there is no prior computer game
> influences for it.  You have to look outside of computer games to see
> what the influences/lineages was.
> 
> > 2. The Adventure genre encompasses *all* fantasy-style gaming.  So RPG
> > fits
> > into it, yes?  If not, why?
> 
> No, because you you can have non-fantasy based RPGs.  Wasteland and
> Fallout for example.  (I'm assuming that you are using the term fantasy
> to mean the generic pseudo-medieval Tolkien-esque settings.)
> 
> Like with fantasy, one of the problems with the word adventure is that
> it can mean a very, very broad category.  So broad that it can become
> meaningless.  (Role-playing has the same problem as you are basically
> playing a role in every game.)
> 
> In fact, if you wanted to you could view the SSI Gold Box crpgs
> en-masse as the RPG system and each individual game as a particular
> adventure.  This would have a nice correspondence to the pen-n-paper
> world where the rules are the RPG and each module is the adventure.
> But this is really more having on an adventure rather than playing an
> "adventure" game.  :)  Darn those multiple word meanings.
> 
> --
> 
> Edward Franks
> 
> --
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RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Stuart Feldhamer]

Jim,

Your system is very interesting but I don't like it. Maybe according to YOUR
definition of Adventure it encompasses all fantasy-style gaming, but this is
not the commonly accepted definition of the genre. As I see it, adventures
are games where the focus is on solving puzzles within the context of a
story. RPGs are games where the focus is on fighting, and in the process,
building up your characters. I've played games like Ultima, and Pool of
Radiance, and I liked them to a point, but I got bored with the battles
every two minutes. The battles are not incidental, but rather are the main
component of the gameplay. A game with this type of gameplay mechanics would
not be considered an adventure by any stretch of the imagination.

Then again, if you want to invent new terminology, that's your business I
suppose.

Even according to your definition of adventure:

Adventure:  "Denotes any game where the emphasis is based on experiencing a
story through the manipulation of one or more user-controlled characters and
the environment they exist in. Gameplay mechanics emphasize decision over
action. Role-playing games (RPGs) are a common sub-genre of all adventure
games, as are the classic Sierra "Quest" series of games. Text adventures
(Interactive Fiction) are also, by definition, adventure games."

I don't think the dynamics of an RPG emphasize decision over action, unless
you're talking about the decision of whether or not I should send my 12th
level fighter to the front lines or leave him in the back, or whether I
should cast spells or attack the strongest monster first, or whatever. If
anything, this is strategy.

Stuart

-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 6:27 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1


Hugh and Edward:

You've presented some strong arguments and I'm going to have to think about
them before coming up with a rebuttal.  But first let me pose some
situations
and questions:

1. Adventure was the first computer game, yes?  It was not an RPG.  So
computer adventure games came before computer RPGs, right?

2. The Adventure genre encompasses *all* fantasy-style gaming.  So RPG fits
into it, yes?  If not, why?

#2 is the dealbreaker.
--
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The world's most comprehensive gaming database project.

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Edward Franks]

On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 05:26  PM, Jim Leonard wrote:
[Snip

You've presented some strong arguments and I'm going to have to think 
about
them before coming up with a rebuttal.  But first let me pose some 
situations
and questions:

1. Adventure was the first computer game, yes?

	Nope.  :)  Space War was (circa 1960).  MIT students meet the PDP-1 
and the cathode-ray tube.

  It was not an RPG.  So
computer adventure games came before computer RPGs, right?


	Yes.  However, adventure games came from pen-n-paper RPGs.  From the 
_first_ pen-n-paper RPG to be exact which started a whole new game 
genre.  The reason I'm pointing stuff out that is outside computer 
games is that in the case of Adventure there is no prior computer game 
influences for it.  You have to look outside of computer games to see 
what the influences/lineages was.

2. The Adventure genre encompasses *all* fantasy-style gaming.  So RPG 
fits
into it, yes?  If not, why?

	No, because you you can have non-fantasy based RPGs.  Wasteland and 
Fallout for example.  (I'm assuming that you are using the term fantasy 
to mean the generic pseudo-medieval Tolkien-esque settings.)

	Like with fantasy, one of the problems with the word adventure is that 
it can mean a very, very broad category.  So broad that it can become 
meaningless.  (Role-playing has the same problem as you are basically 
playing a role in every game.)

	In fact, if you wanted to you could view the SSI Gold Box crpgs 
en-masse as the RPG system and each individual game as a particular 
adventure.  This would have a nice correspondence to the pen-n-paper 
world where the rules are the RPG and each module is the adventure.  
But this is really more having on an adventure rather than playing an 
"adventure" game.  :)  Darn those multiple word meanings.

--

Edward Franks


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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Edward Franks]

On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 05:33  PM, John Romero wrote:


I have a question: why do I get these messages twice? ;)


	In my case I tend to hit Reply to All so the To: line picks your work 
address and the Cc: line gets the [EMAIL PROTECTED] email address. 
(I've done it right this time.  ;-))

--

Edward Franks


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RE: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Pedro Quaresma]

>"Pedro Sez..."
As a sidenote on interfaces, I believe Ultima 6 was the first game to have both an icon-based interface _and_ >also an "initial based" one ('O' for open, 'C' for cast, etc). I think most people, even those who were not used to >the previous game, barely used the icons.<

>Times of Lore (Origin, 1989) had these same icons, and gave the Ultima 6 team the inspiration for it.

Thanks for correcting me Joe. I don't recall ToL having the "initial based" interface that's why I didn't mention it. Was ToL the first one then, or can you remember any other even older?


--
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Salvador Caetano IMVT
Div. Sistemas de Informação / Systems and Information Division
Administração e Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes / 
Lotus Notes Admnistration and Development
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Re: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Pedro Quaresma]

Hugh Falk wrote,
>I found one flaw right here:
>
>"Since there is no such thing as an RPG that isn't also an adventure, or strategy, or action game, RPG becomes a >sub-genre instead of a main one." 
>
>There are certainly RPGs that aren't adventure (or other genre) games. 

Agreed. I think Hero Quest (not Hero's Quest aka QfG1) is another good example of this too. And maybe Temple of Apshai, but haven't played it enough to know for sure.

--
Pedro R. Quaresma
Salvador Caetano IMVT
Div. Sistemas de Informação / Systems and Information Division
Administração e Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes / 
Lotus Notes Admnistration and Development
[EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext. 3492)

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Pedro Quaresma]

Jim Leonard wrote:
>Jagged Alliance: Strategy, subgenres Role-Playing.  
>Birthright: Same as Jagged Alliance, with Medieval Fantasy thrown in.
>Europa 1400: The Guild: Strategy, subgenres Managerial.

I can agree on the first two, but I'd think this one could be Adventure :)

>King of Dragon Pass: Adventure (finally) + Strategy, subgenres Managerial,
>Role-Playing.  (Wow, this game looks interesting -- I'll try to play it)

I have to disagree once again, this one should be primarily Strategy, and with no Role-Playing :) 

On a sidenote, yes, this game is tremendously interesting, (although difficult due to the complex Managerial part) and amazing in the perspective that it has _no_ animations whatsoever! 

--
Pedro R. Quaresma
Salvador Caetano IMVT
Div. Sistemas de Informação / Systems and Information Division
Administração e Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes / 
Lotus Notes Admnistration and Development
[EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext. 3492)

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Re: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[hughfalk]

RE:

#1.  Actually Spacewar was the first computer game...and it was an action game.  But 
yes, computer adventure came before computer RPG.  I'm not sure that is of any 
significance; however, since several other genres (besides action and strategy) also 
came after Adventure.

#2.  Fantasy is not a computer-game-genre-specific characteristic.  Adventures can be 
fantasy, sci-fi, noir, reality-based, etc.  Same with RPGs.

The real differentiator between video game genres should be the essence of what makes 
it a fun game:  

- For an Adventure game, it is problem/puzzle solving.  I contend that Adventure games 
are a sub-genre of puzzle games.  Without problem/puzzle solving in an adventure game, 
you would have no game.  You would have a story (even if that was fun, it wouldn't be 
a game).

- For RPGs, it is character growth and item gathering.  This makes it distinct and not 
a sub-genre.  A game can have this as its only focus and be fun.  See Telengard, 
Rogue, Temple of Apshai, NetHack, etc.

Hugh



---Original Message---
From: Jim Leonard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: 01/22/03 03:26 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

> 
> Hugh and Edward:

You've presented some strong arguments and I'm going to have to think
about
them before coming up with a rebuttal.  But first let me pose some
situations
and questions:

1. Adventure was the first computer game, yes?  It was not an RPG.  So
computer adventure games came before computer RPGs, right?

2. The Adventure genre encompasses *all* fantasy-style gaming.  So RPG
fits
into it, yes?  If not, why?

#2 is the dealbreaker.
-- 
http://www.MobyGames.com/
The world's most comprehensive gaming database project.

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> 

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Karl Kuras]

> Too many classifications and you fall into the trap of gamedex.com.  They
have
> over 200 categories, which makes their classification system ludicrous.
Just
> one look:
>
> Action Advenuture
> Cartoonish Action Adventure
> Fantasy Action Adventure
> Sci-fi Action Adventure
> Horror Action Adventure
> Action Hero Adventure
> Super Hero Advenutre
> Spy Action Adventure
>
> ..and you know they're beyond help.  Hopefully I don't need to explain why
> this is a Very Bad Idea(tm).

The  distinctions you chose here as examples all go to the genre of the
story, which most people would agree is rather superflous in most cases,
because games are about the gameplay mechanics (is there really that much of
a difference in the gameplay of the SSI Buck Rogers game and any of their
Gold Box D&D titles?  The setting may be different but the game stays the
same.)

While getting into too many categories, especially what story genre's are
concerned is an issue, using such overly broad categories to describe
differing game play is no help either.  And let's face it the use of
sub-genre's is just more categories without saying as much.

I understand the need to find a limited amount of categories for
classification purposes, but because these categories need to break down the
interaction that the game allows with the world being generated on the
computer, and the many ways that that interaction can be achieved, IMHO I
feel that such a broad approach is insufficient.

I don't see why adding a few extra categories would throw everything into
chaos, especially when those new categories would better describe the
interface and nature of gameplay, which is what brings people to the game.
and define what they like (think of the folks who  hated text adventures but
loved Sierra games (I knew a lot of those)).

Karl Kuras


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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Marco Thorek]

Jim Leonard schrieb:
> 
> The party aspect is indeed a strong element of RPGs.  I neglected to say this
> in our RPG genre description, so I'll add it now.  I won't limit RPGs to
> party-based games, but it should indeed be noted that *most* RPGs are
> party-based.  See, discussion does bring about change :-)

Well, yes ;-) 

I'd also like to point out that I didn't mean to criticize your system,
I was originally only contemplating the general changes genres went
through in the course of time.

> But since all RPGs are adventures, it remains a subgenre in our system.

I would still have to disagree, mostly for the same reasons as stated by
Hugh and Edward. 

I found these two snippets at 

http://www.rickadams.org/adventure/a_history.html

"Unfortunately, it was during this period that Crowther's marriage
ended. Feeling estranged from his two daughters and wanting to be closer
to them, he decided to write a program that they might enjoy: a
simulation of his cave explorations that also contained elements of his
fantasy roleplaying. He was intrigued by the idea of trying a
computer-mediated version of the game."

"Influenced by Tolkien's writing, Woods added touches such as a troll,
elves, and a volcano."

So yes, true, Adventure had a fantasy background and still wasn't a RPG
in the sense we define them now, meaning character development and
having a party. But those most likely were missing because they were too
complicated for Crowther and Woods to make them work at the time. 

You could now argue that the adventure genre predated the RPG genre
because of the limitations set by early computers, but IMHO it wouldn't
do the original intentions of Adventures's creators justice. And you
should also take into account that although Lebling and Blank used
Adventure and D&D as inspiration for Zork, they quickly spread the
themes of their adventure games to Science-Fiction and Mystery, while
RPGs just about always stayed with fantasy as their home harbor. 

> > Moby categorizes Bard's Tale as "Adventure, 1st-Person Perspective,
> > Medieval Fantasy, Role-Playing (RPG)," and Ultima IV as  "Adventure,
> > Top-Down, Medieval Fantasy, Role-Playing (RPG)" but IMHO both are just
> > RPGs.
> 
> But both are also adventures with a medieval fantasy theme, so I don't see
> your point...?

Maybe the medieval fantasy theme is integral to an RPG but not to an
adventure? 

As I said above, there are exceptions, like Wasteland and Fallout, but
give people a dragon and some castles, a party and character development
and they say, it's an RPG. I think these are pretty distinctive
features, even if RPGs had evolved from adventures. 

> So what is relevant today (as opposed to two decades ago) should influence our
> system?  We created the system to categorize all games from all time periods.

I think that is where a problem might be. It could be next to impossible
to categorize every game from 30 years of development in a way that does
it justice, without losing track in a plethora of subgenres. 

I just clicked my way through to "A Final Unity" and came up with
"Adventure, Simulation, 3rd-Person Perspective, Puzzle-Solving, Sci-Fi /
Futuristic, Licensed Title" as genres. That is pretty confusing, isn't
it? 

Perhaps it would suffice to state a title's main genres under genre (in
this case Adventure and Simulation) and the rest as keywords. It would
give your main genres a much more distinctive notion.

Yould could then also set up a search engine for the site/the main
genres that lets users choose what keywords they want to use in a
search. The results could list the titles that apply to the chosen
keywords.

As you see, I don't really have to criticize the system you set up,
anyway, ecxepting the lack of RPGs as a main genre, but only its
organization.

> Also, "1st-person perspective" definitely serves as a distinction -- take
> Wizardry (1st) verses Fallout (3rd).  Some people prefer 1st to feel more
> immersed in their surroundings.  I think your scope isn't big enough.

The perspective might be a point of personal preference and should
therefore be mentioned, but perhaps not as a subgenre. 

The first person perspective games that came out after the initial wave
of shooters that created the FPS genre had the problem of being
understood as shooters, just because of the perspective. I remember
discussions about Deus Ex where people complained the lack of action
"for a FPS," not recognizing the game was not meant as one. Players just
took the perspective as denominator for a genre, where in reality the
perspective had much earlier started to become independent from a
certain style of game.

Taking into account what I above said about keywords, you might include
first and third person perspective as keywords, so people who do make
this a decisive factor for the games they want to play can still find
them.

Marco

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RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[John Romero]

I have a question: why do I get these messages twice? ;)

Also, when is MobyGames going to add the Apple II category? 

- John
 


> -Original Message-
> From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 5:27 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
> 
> 
> Hugh and Edward:
> 
> You've presented some strong arguments and I'm going to have 
> to think about them before coming up with a rebuttal.  But 
> first let me pose some situations and questions:
> 
> 1. Adventure was the first computer game, yes?  It was not an 
> RPG.  So computer adventure games came before computer RPGs, right?
> 
> 2. The Adventure genre encompasses *all* fantasy-style 
> gaming.  So RPG fits into it, yes?  If not, why?
> 
> #2 is the dealbreaker.
> -- 
> http://www.MobyGames.com/
> The world's most comprehensive gaming database project.
> 
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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Hugh and Edward:

You've presented some strong arguments and I'm going to have to think about
them before coming up with a rebuttal.  But first let me pose some situations
and questions:

1. Adventure was the first computer game, yes?  It was not an RPG.  So
computer adventure games came before computer RPGs, right?

2. The Adventure genre encompasses *all* fantasy-style gaming.  So RPG fits
into it, yes?  If not, why?

#2 is the dealbreaker.
-- 
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The world's most comprehensive gaming database project.

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Edward Franks]

On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 02:35  PM, Jim Leonard wrote:

Edward Franks wrote:

[Snip]

I completely disagree.  All RPGs are adventures, but not all 
adventures are
RPGs; because of this, RPG is a subgenre in our system.  Before you 
debate
further, here is our definition of Adventure (a main genre) and RPG (a
subgenre).  Please read them over before responding.

	You have the cart before the horse.  Adventure games descended from 
pen-n-paper RPGs, specifically, D&D.  Adventure, the grandfather of 
adventure game has its roots in D&D.  Computer RPGs are attempts at 
recreating the original pen-n-paper games RPGs.  To reverse this is to 
seriously misunderstand where and how these game genres came about.  
You would have a better argument if you posited that adventures were a 
subset of RPGs.  At least the histories of the games would give you 
that support.  ;-)

	Both computer RPGs (crpgs) and adventure games are twin genres coming 
from the same parent (D&D).  They share many similarities (genetic 
code), but have taken different paths to the entertainment end.  In the 
end they are distinct siblings.  (Examples:  Zork 1 had a complex 
combat system based on D&D, but that was removed in the later Infocom 
games because combat was really downplayed.  Where as Wizardry and it 
sequels really focused on combat and action, not decision.  And then 
there are the Rogue-likes such as Nethack.  I can't see anyone 
seriously calling Nethack an adventure.   It is a hack-n-slash crpg.)

[Snip]
Here's an example clarifying how important the main categories are: 
Think
about the materials we see around us. What's the common classification
expression -- Animal, Vegetable, or Mineral, right? That's a pretty 
good
example: I am animal, the taco I just ate was vegetable, and the 
toilet I will
no doubt be visiting shortly is mineral. Asking for the RPG genre to 
join the
main list is like asking for "rocks" to join the Animal, Vegetable, or 
Mineral
list when it's clearly already a mineral.  It doesn't matter if the 
rock is in
the shape of, say, an animal; that doesn't change the fact that it is 
a rock.
[Snip]


Now, if you see any problems in that logic, please let me know.


	The first thing that comes to mind is that your justification for your 
taxonomy isn't on solid ground.  Any scientist will tell you that the 
real world is messier than what the taxonomies say 'should be'.  For 
example, the duck-billed platypus or a virus.  With some research I 
imagine I con find something that is either a plant or animal depending 
on your mood that day.  :-D

	An accurate gaming taxonomy needs to include, even draw attention to, 
the messy nature of defining adventure games and crpgs.  The two share 
a lot common features.

	Believe me, I understand the desire to have a nice, clean, and tidy 
taxonomy.  They are so very appealing, but to be ultimately useful the 
taxonomy simply must reflect the reality of the games.  Then again, I 
wouldn't be the one making all the changes to the database.  :-D

--

Edward Franks


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Re: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[hughfalk]

I found one flaw right here:

"Since there is no such thing as an RPG that isn't also an adventure, or strategy, or 
action game, RPG becomes a sub-genre instead of a main one." 

There are certainly RPGs that aren't adventure (or other genre) games.  Two off the 
top of my head are Telengard and Rogue -- two of my favorites.  There is no story to 
speak of in these type of games...there may be a story hinted in the manual or maybe 
in the conclusion (some games are open ended and have no conclusion).  Even if there 
is the slightest hint of a story, you said that .0001% (paraphrasing) content doesn't 
make it switch genre.  These games are hack and slash games whose goal is to make your 
characters as powerful as possible and find lots of treasure.  No serious action, 
strategy or adventure.

I can dig up several more of these games.  Generally you'll find them to be older 
games since story became more common as the industry grew. However, you could argue 
that a game like Diablo is still a hack-n-slash RPG.  They throw in some randomized 
plot elements (quests), but it is quite secondary to the fun of the game.  Again, if 
Half Life isn't an adventure I would say Diablo isn't, but it is definitely an RPG.  
Mobygames says it is action.  I'd say that's debatable since the definition requires 
the "main focus" to be action.  But Telengard and Rogue are definitely not action 
games.

Hugh


---Original Message---
From: Jim Leonard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: 01/22/03 12:35 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

> 
> Edward Franks wrote:
> 
> The problem is that you can easily swap in role-playing games as 
a
> basic building block in place of Adventure.  The same justifications
> work for either.  The two are so close together (more than any of the
> other categories) that it is hard sometimes to see the unique
> differences.

I completely disagree.  All RPGs are adventures, but not all adventures
are
RPGs; because of this, RPG is a subgenre in our system.  Before you debate
further, here is our definition of Adventure (a main genre) and RPG (a
subgenre).  Please read them over before responding.

Adventure:  "Denotes any game where the emphasis is based on experiencing
a
story through the manipulation of one or more user-controlled characters
and
the environment they exist in. Gameplay mechanics emphasize decision over
action. Role-playing games (RPGs) are a common sub-genre of all adventure
games, as are the classic Sierra "Quest" series of games. Text adventures
(Interactive Fiction) are also, by definition, adventure games."

Role-Playing:  "Denotes games where the creation and advancement of
character
statistics is a major element of gameplay mechanics. Inspired by
traditional
role-playing games, such as Dungeons and Dragons. Players have specific
attributes, "hit points", etc. and a large part of gameplay involves
improving
your character(s) through experience. Examples: Bard's Tale, Wizardry,
Might
and Magic, Lands of Lore, Wasteland, Fallout, etc. (Does not have to be
based
in fantasy settings, but most are.)"

---

For extra credit, the MobyGames FAQ "Why is your "main" category list so
sparse? Where's RPG? Where's puzzle games?" is answered like this:  Our
"main"
list of genres -- also referred to as main categories -- are the most
basic
building blocks of game taxonomy. Meaning, they are intentionally basic
and
encompassing, such that any game in the world can fit into at least one of 
the
main categories. 

A lot of people have asked us why some genres, specifically RPG, are not
included in this list. That is because, for a game category to be included 
in
the main list, it must stand by itself. Since there is no such thing as an 
RPG
that isn't also an adventure, or strategy, or action game, RPG becomes a
sub-genre instead of a main one. 

Here's an example clarifying how important the main categories are: Think
about the materials we see around us. What's the common classification
expression -- Animal, Vegetable, or Mineral, right? That's a pretty good
example: I am animal, the taco I just ate was vegetable, and the toilet I
will
no doubt be visiting shortly is mineral. Asking for the RPG genre to join
the
main list is like asking for "rocks" to join the Animal, Vegetable, or
Mineral
list when it's clearly already a mineral.  It doesn't matter if the rock
is in
the shape of, say, an animal; that doesn't change the fact that it is a
rock.

Hopefully by now you can see the importance we place on our main
categories
for the purposes of proper game classification. They may not match your
specific definition of a game type, but that is sort-of the point. In
order to
properly classify games such as a scientist would classify a

Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Marco Thorek wrote:
> 
> But I don't agree with Jim on making RPGs a subgenre. There are two
> strong indications for having a RPG at hand: character development and a
> party.

The party aspect is indeed a strong element of RPGs.  I neglected to say this
in our RPG genre description, so I'll add it now.  I won't limit RPGs to
party-based games, but it should indeed be noted that *most* RPGs are
party-based.  See, discussion does bring about change :-)  

But since all RPGs are adventures, it remains a subgenre in our system.
 
> Moby categorizes Bard's Tale as "Adventure, 1st-Person Perspective,
> Medieval Fantasy, Role-Playing (RPG)," and Ultima IV as  "Adventure,
> Top-Down, Medieval Fantasy, Role-Playing (RPG)" but IMHO both are just
> RPGs.

But both are also adventures with a medieval fantasy theme, so I don't see
your point...?
 
> Maybe steering a party should be a subgenre and 1st person perspective
> should be dropped as one. Many games from very different genres nowadays
> are first person perspective, so this does not serve for much of a
> distinction.

So what is relevant today (as opposed to two decades ago) should influence our
system?  We created the system to categorize all games from all time periods. 
Also, "1st-person perspective" definitely serves as a distinction -- take
Wizardry (1st) verses Fallout (3rd).  Some people prefer 1st to feel more
immersed in their surroundings.  I think your scope isn't big enough.
-- 
http://www.MobyGames.com/
The world's most comprehensive gaming database project.

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Marco Thorek wrote:
> 
> Well, according to Moby it belongs to six genres. 

Two main, four sub.  Sorry if that's not obvious in our presentation; I should
probably mention to Brian that our main genres should be highlighted
differently.

> I thought about a game
> belonging to one genre, like in the good old days.

Then you fall into the gamedex.com category trap, which is a mess.
 
> I remember the German Happy-Computer magazine periodically published
> extra gaming editions and they were categorized by genre: RPG, Action,
> Adventure, Sports, etc. Games that couldn't be classified clearly had
> their own category, "Rest of the world." Elite was in there, as well as
> Psi-5 Trading, Koronis Rift and Alter Ego. Today "Rest of the world"
> woul probably make up most of the magazine.

Exactly, which proves that the single-genre system is flawed by design.  Thank
you for proving my point :-)
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The world's most comprehensive gaming database project.

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Edward Franks wrote:
> 
> The problem is that you can easily swap in role-playing games as a
> basic building block in place of Adventure.  The same justifications
> work for either.  The two are so close together (more than any of the
> other categories) that it is hard sometimes to see the unique
> differences.

I completely disagree.  All RPGs are adventures, but not all adventures are
RPGs; because of this, RPG is a subgenre in our system.  Before you debate
further, here is our definition of Adventure (a main genre) and RPG (a
subgenre).  Please read them over before responding.

Adventure:  "Denotes any game where the emphasis is based on experiencing a
story through the manipulation of one or more user-controlled characters and
the environment they exist in. Gameplay mechanics emphasize decision over
action. Role-playing games (RPGs) are a common sub-genre of all adventure
games, as are the classic Sierra "Quest" series of games. Text adventures
(Interactive Fiction) are also, by definition, adventure games."

Role-Playing:  "Denotes games where the creation and advancement of character
statistics is a major element of gameplay mechanics. Inspired by traditional
role-playing games, such as Dungeons and Dragons. Players have specific
attributes, "hit points", etc. and a large part of gameplay involves improving
your character(s) through experience. Examples: Bard's Tale, Wizardry, Might
and Magic, Lands of Lore, Wasteland, Fallout, etc. (Does not have to be based
in fantasy settings, but most are.)"

---

For extra credit, the MobyGames FAQ "Why is your "main" category list so
sparse? Where's RPG? Where's puzzle games?" is answered like this:  Our "main"
list of genres -- also referred to as main categories -- are the most basic
building blocks of game taxonomy. Meaning, they are intentionally basic and
encompassing, such that any game in the world can fit into at least one of the
main categories. 

A lot of people have asked us why some genres, specifically RPG, are not
included in this list. That is because, for a game category to be included in
the main list, it must stand by itself. Since there is no such thing as an RPG
that isn't also an adventure, or strategy, or action game, RPG becomes a
sub-genre instead of a main one. 

Here's an example clarifying how important the main categories are: Think
about the materials we see around us. What's the common classification
expression -- Animal, Vegetable, or Mineral, right? That's a pretty good
example: I am animal, the taco I just ate was vegetable, and the toilet I will
no doubt be visiting shortly is mineral. Asking for the RPG genre to join the
main list is like asking for "rocks" to join the Animal, Vegetable, or Mineral
list when it's clearly already a mineral.  It doesn't matter if the rock is in
the shape of, say, an animal; that doesn't change the fact that it is a rock.

Hopefully by now you can see the importance we place on our main categories
for the purposes of proper game classification. They may not match your
specific definition of a game type, but that is sort-of the point. In order to
properly classify games such as a scientist would classify a new element, we
have to "break the mold" and classify them how they are supposed to be
classified, not how they already have been for years. 

---

Now, if you see any problems in that logic, please let me know.
-- 
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The world's most comprehensive gaming database project.

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Chris Newman]

Yech, it seems like Gamedex is confusing genre with plot.

Jim Leonard wrote:
> 
> Karl Kuras wrote:
> >
> > > To remain in the Interaction Fiction with Graphics subgenre, verb-noun
> > input
> > > using text labels must be maintained.  If the verbs (actions) and nouns
> > > (items) are replaced by icons or pictures, or accepts verb-only or
> > noun-only
> > > input, it no longer qualfies as Interactive Fiction."
> >
> > This definition unfortunately shouldn't include early Sierra and Lucasarts
> > games for the simple fact that movement (one of the most time consuming
> > aspects of a text adventure) is no longer controlled by verb + noun text
> > inputs or selections, but is now relegated to a joystick, mouse or arrow key
> > function.
> 
> I don't agree.  For one thing, movement was hardly the most time-consuming
> portion (you could use abbreviations and could stack commands -- haven't you
> ever typed "n,e,e,n,e" to move somewhere?).  But more importantly, movement
> was the ONLY thing NOT controlled by text input.  Since the majority of
> gameplay relied on text input, it is IF.
> 
> > I would almost go as far as saying that IF is an improper name for the
> 
> I never wrote that.  Not IF, but IF+G.  IF+G is IF with relaxed restrictions.
> 
> > genre, but it should be Interactive Novel (for the classic Infocom games),
> > Interactive Picture Book (for the text adventures with still images, like
> > The Hobbitt and Gremlins) and Interactive Movie (for the Sierra and Lucas
> > games which include animated sprites representing the characters).
> 
> Too many classifications and you fall into the trap of gamedex.com.  They have
> over 200 categories, which makes their classification system ludicrous.  Just
> one look:
> 
> Action Advenuture
> Cartoonish Action Adventure
> Fantasy Action Adventure
> Sci-fi Action Adventure
> Horror Action Adventure
> Action Hero Adventure
> Super Hero Advenutre
> Spy Action Adventure
> 
> ..and you know they're beyond help.  Hopefully I don't need to explain why
> this is a Very Bad Idea(tm).
> --
> http://www.MobyGames.com/
> The world's most comprehensive gaming database project.
> 
> --
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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Karl Kuras wrote:
> 
> > To remain in the Interaction Fiction with Graphics subgenre, verb-noun
> input
> > using text labels must be maintained.  If the verbs (actions) and nouns
> > (items) are replaced by icons or pictures, or accepts verb-only or
> noun-only
> > input, it no longer qualfies as Interactive Fiction."
> 
> This definition unfortunately shouldn't include early Sierra and Lucasarts
> games for the simple fact that movement (one of the most time consuming
> aspects of a text adventure) is no longer controlled by verb + noun text
> inputs or selections, but is now relegated to a joystick, mouse or arrow key
> function.

I don't agree.  For one thing, movement was hardly the most time-consuming
portion (you could use abbreviations and could stack commands -- haven't you
ever typed "n,e,e,n,e" to move somewhere?).  But more importantly, movement
was the ONLY thing NOT controlled by text input.  Since the majority of
gameplay relied on text input, it is IF.
 
> I would almost go as far as saying that IF is an improper name for the

I never wrote that.  Not IF, but IF+G.  IF+G is IF with relaxed restrictions.

> genre, but it should be Interactive Novel (for the classic Infocom games),
> Interactive Picture Book (for the text adventures with still images, like
> The Hobbitt and Gremlins) and Interactive Movie (for the Sierra and Lucas
> games which include animated sprites representing the characters).

Too many classifications and you fall into the trap of gamedex.com.  They have
over 200 categories, which makes their classification system ludicrous.  Just
one look:

Action Advenuture
Cartoonish Action Adventure
Fantasy Action Adventure
Sci-fi Action Adventure
Horror Action Adventure
Action Hero Adventure
Super Hero Advenutre
Spy Action Adventure

..and you know they're beyond help.  Hopefully I don't need to explain why
this is a Very Bad Idea(tm).
-- 
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The world's most comprehensive gaming database project.

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Karl Kuras wrote:
> 
> > Adventures progress through decision, not action.  Since you can't
> > significantly change Mafia's story or outcomes based on your decisions,
> it's
> > not an adventure game.  People confuse this a lot; they think that great
> > storytelling equals "adventure game", which is incorrect.  Half-Life had
> > excellent storytelling, but was it an adventure game?
> 
> So if a game can only have one final outcome, no multiple endings then it's
> not an adventure?  

That's not what I wrote.  MOST games have one final outcome.  But if there are
multiple paths or mechanics on getting there, *and* the gameplay focuses on
storytelling and "decision over action", it's an adventure.  Within reason,
you should not be restricted on how you get there.
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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Marco Thorek]

Edward Franks schrieb:
> 
> 
> The problem is that you can easily swap in role-playing games as a
> basic building block in place of Adventure.  The same justifications
> work for either.  The two are so close together (more than any of the
> other categories) that it is hard sometimes to see the unique
> differences.

That is true. Most likely that was also the reason why Infocom ventured
into RPGs later on. 

But I don't agree with Jim on making RPGs a subgenre. There are two
strong indications for having a RPG at hand: character development and a
party.

Moby categorizes Bard's Tale as "Adventure, 1st-Person Perspective,
Medieval Fantasy, Role-Playing (RPG)," and Ultima IV as  "Adventure,
Top-Down, Medieval Fantasy, Role-Playing (RPG)" but IMHO both are just
RPGs. 

Maybe steering a party should be a subgenre and 1st person perspective
should be dropped as one. Many games from very different genres nowadays
are first person perspective, so this does not serve for much of a
distinction.

Marco

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Edward Franks wrote:
> 
> On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 10:43  AM, Jim Leonard wrote:
> [Snip]
> > Adventures progress through decision, not action.  Since you can't
> > significantly change Mafia's story or outcomes based on your
> > decisions, it's
> > not an adventure game.  People confuse this a lot; they think that
> > great
> > storytelling equals "adventure game", which is incorrect.  Half-Life
> > had
> > excellent storytelling, but was it an adventure game?
> 
> No, but Half-Life swiped a number of elements from
> adventure/role-playing games to give a needed twist to first person
> shooters.  For example, the very end was definitely an adventure-style
> situation.

I don't deny that, but 0.0001% of the gameplay giving you a story branch does
not an adventure game make :-)
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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Edward Franks]

On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 01:02  PM, Jim Leonard wrote:
[Snip]

Most people don't have a problem with the way MobyGames defines a 
genre, but
some people have a problem with the Main genres (Action, Adventure,
Educational, Racing / Driving, Simulation, Sports, Strategy).  Every 
month we
refer people to the FAQ question "Why isn't RPG a Main genre?".

	The problem is that you can easily swap in role-playing games as a 
basic building block in place of Adventure.  The same justifications 
work for either.  The two are so close together (more than any of the 
other categories) that it is hard sometimes to see the unique 
differences.

--

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Karl Kuras wrote:
> 
> > At its most basic, Adventure + Action, subgenres Cyberpunk, Dark Sci-Fi.
> 
> Come on... simply calling it Action Adventure ignores the Character
> development aspects 

Sorry, I may have forgotten to add subgenre Role-Playing, which should be
there.

> of the game and simply labeling a game where shooting
> occurs as Action would lump Space Invaders, Doom and Tomb Raider into the
> same category 

The same BASIC category, yes.  However, please note that I chose two basic
genres to classify it, Adventure + Action, and Doom and Tomb Raider would NOT
fit into that.  

Games are the summary of their parts.  MobyGames tries to make sure the parts
are clearly defined and labeled.

> and let's face it, that is like saying that The French
> Connection, Rambo and Hard Boiled are all action movies, but they really
> have little to nothing in common and probably wouldn't even appeal to the
> same group of people.

But that doesn't change the fact that they are action movies.  We're not
debating whether or not those games are similar, we're debating how to
classify them.
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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Pedro Quaresma wrote:
> 
> Jim Leonard wrote:
> >Trust me, I can classify them.  :)  Genres haven't blurred; people's minds
> >have.  Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult.
> 
> Jagged Alliance, Birthright.
> Wait, want really difficult ones? OK then: Europa 1400 The Guild, King of
> Dragon Pass :)

Jagged Alliance: Strategy, subgenres Role-Playing.  
Birthright: Same as Jagged Alliance, with Medieval Fantasy thrown in.
Europa 1400: The Guild: Strategy, subgenres Managerial.
King of Dragon Pass: Adventure (finally) + Strategy, subgenres Managerial,
Role-Playing.  (Wow, this game looks interesting -- I'll try to play it)

These aren't hard to classify.  In fact, no game is hard to classify.  I think
what is missing for most people is that no clear agreement of what some genres
like "adventure" or "RPG" mean.  Properly defining genres has been one of our
missions since inception.  Take a look at some MobyGames genres (find a game
and click on the genre to get its description); I would very much like to know
if anyone thinks we have something defined incorrectly.  

Most people don't have a problem with the way MobyGames defines a genre, but
some people have a problem with the Main genres (Action, Adventure,
Educational, Racing / Driving, Simulation, Sports, Strategy).  Every month we
refer people to the FAQ question "Why isn't RPG a Main genre?". 
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RE: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Origin Museum]

"Pedro Sez..."
As a sidenote on interfaces, I believe Ultima 6 was the first game to have both an 
>icon-based interface _and_ also an "initial based" one ('O' for open, 'C' for cast, 
>etc). I think most people, even those who were not used to the previous game, barely 
>used the icons.<

Times of Lore (Origin, 1989) had these same icons, and gave the Ultima 6 team the 
inspiration for it.



"Preserving Worlds"
Joe Garrity
Curator of the Origin Museum
Protector of the Ultima Crossbow
http://originmuseum.solsector.net

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Edward Franks wrote:
> 
> From a game developer's viewpoint, when or what things made the IBM PC
> the platform of choice over the Apple IIs, C64s, etc.?  I know that on
> the business side of programming the common wisdom is that 640K RAM was
> the key (VisiCalc vs. Lotus 1-2-3). Was it the ubiquity of the PC
> clones? VGA graphics? Reaching the limitations of 8-bit platform or an
> intersection of all three?

I think the intersection of all three.  Color depth in the 320x200x256 MCGA
mode (supported on MCGA and VGA) outclassed all platforms released until that
time, even Amiga -- HAM was too slow for gaming, so that left up to 64
simultaneous onscreen colors in practical application (32 for most games). 
This was at a time when PC clones were cheap and 25MHz machines were the norm;
combine all three, and what the PC lacked in graphics and sound hardware
assistance it could make up for in CPU power/speed.

But another way to look at it was the game designs themselves.  For example,
Apple II, C64, etc. could not do the kinds of things game designers wanted to
do.  Games with heavy memory AND CPU requirements like Wing Commander (for
storing all those sprites, AND rotating/scaling them on the fly) or Falcon 3.0
(heavy 3D flight/world/etc. calculations, not just 3D rendering) just couldn't
be done on any other platform.  Some games even had to wait until their time
had come -- for example, Strike Commander.  The victim of bad timing, SC's
game's engine was so advanced that even the current machines of the day
couldn't run it properly (and this is NOT the fault of bad programming --
designed in 1992, it supported 3D textures, gouraud shading, distance fog, and
other innovations that took two more years for other companies to produce).
 
> In a way the PC seemed to be a step backward for games in the mid '80s
> to about '90 because of the lack of decent sound.  Though, for example,
> Sierra pushed the various sound cards and external units, most of the
> people I knew didn't buy sound cards until the time of Wing Commander
> or Doom.

I originally bought my sound cards for better music, both composing and in
games (my first PC soundcard was only supported by the program it came with,
Bank Street Music Writer).  I bought an Adlib in 1989 because I had received a
cool record (an actual, cereal-box-style floppy record) in the mail that
demonstrated what it could do, and wanted to see how some of my favorite
single-voice PC speaker music sounded with better hardware.  What a surprise I
got when Indy 500 had actual decent sound effects -- the cars sounded
incredibly authentic.  (They still do -- run Indy 500 on an Adlib and you'll
see what I mean.)  So, my experience was atypical -- I was always in it for
the music.
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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Karl Kuras]

> To remain in the Interaction Fiction with Graphics subgenre, verb-noun
input
> using text labels must be maintained.  If the verbs (actions) and nouns
> (items) are replaced by icons or pictures, or accepts verb-only or
noun-only
> input, it no longer qualfies as Interactive Fiction."

This definition unfortunately shouldn't include early Sierra and Lucasarts
games for the simple fact that movement (one of the most time consuming
aspects of a text adventure) is no longer controlled by verb + noun text
inputs or selections, but is now relegated to a joystick, mouse or arrow key
function.

I would almost go as far as saying that IF is an improper name for the
genre, but it should be Interactive Novel (for the classic Infocom games),
Interactive Picture Book (for the text adventures with still images, like
The Hobbitt and Gremlins) and Interactive Movie (for the Sierra and Lucas
games which include animated sprites representing the characters).

Karl Kuras


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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Pedro Quaresma wrote:
> 
> Clever and engaging storylines, agreed (up to a certain period), but awful
> interface? I admit the first version of the SCUMM system (Zak Mcracken,
> Maniac Mansion) was poor, but the one used on the Monkeys and DoTT is, IMHO,
> in the very least pretty decent. And so was the icon-based one they used
> later starting on, I believe Sam & Max.

You're crossing genres.  DoTT and Monkeys is IF+G, Sam & Max was completely
icon-based so it doesn't qualify as IF+G.
 
> Sure, a parser is more precise when interpreting your ideas into the game,
> but an icon-based one can often be more rewarding.

I agree, but that's not what's being debated.  The discussion is on the proper
classification and taxonomy of IF and IF+G.
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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Karl Kuras wrote:
> 
> > Yes, but since those games are just Sierra-style games with verbs and
> nouns
> > you can pick from a list, it's still a derivative from IF (except this
> time
> > the parser forces a limited subset of words you can choose from, in a very
> > specific two-word combo).  The "pick words from a list"-style adventure
> system
> > was no better than Sierra's.  What made Lucasarts games worth playing,
> > thankfully, were the clever and engaging storylines and puzzles, which
> were
> > good enough to force people through the awful interface.
> 
> But by that logic, you could say that a game like Jack the Nipper, or
> Garfield: Big Fat Hair Deal were derivatives of IF as well, since you went
> through the game, and with the correct selection of moves (to pick up, and
> drop items, talk to characters, etc.) you went through a story.  The
> interface had just changed from words typed in or chosen from a list to
> words chosen by specific joystick and fire button combos.  

Yes, that's true, but was the interface text-based?  Meaning, did it enforce
verb-noun commands with text labels?  If so, it was IF; if not, it wasn't.

> It seems that any
> game that tells a story and has the character influence that story in any
> way beyond just jumping and running would be an IF.  That just completely
> ignores the actual play mechanics which are what a "Genre" is supposed to be
> defining.

See my above answer.  If the gameplay interface relies on verb-noun commands
(must be both, not verb only or noun only) labeled with text (NOT icons), then
it's IF.  It doesn't matter if you select verbs/nouns via typing them or
picking them from a list -- it's IF.

If everything is icon-based, then all bets are off.

Here's the MobyGames defintion for IF+G:  

"Same mechanics as Interactive Fiction, with modifications for graphics made
to the input and output interface.  Output can include graphics, which can
either be turned off (Transylvania, Tau Ceti, etc.) or are mandatory (Sierra
"Quest" and Lucasarts "SCUMM" games).  Input is still text-based requiring
verb-noun input, but the method of selection does not have to rely on the
keyboard (meaning, you can pick from a visual list of verbs and nouns, like
Lucasarts adventures).

To remain in the Interaction Fiction with Graphics subgenre, verb-noun input
using text labels must be maintained.  If the verbs (actions) and nouns
(items) are replaced by icons or pictures, or accepts verb-only or noun-only
input, it no longer qualfies as Interactive Fiction."

And, if you were curious, our definition for straight IF is:

"Gameplay is language-based in nature.  All interaction with the player, both
input and feedback, is done through the input and output of pure text.  Input
mimics natural language using verb-noun (action-item) commands  (Abbreviations
also qualify, because they abbreviate a verb-noun construct, like "w" for "go
west" or "i" for "list inventory").  Output is rendered in full,
natural-language, grammatically-correct sentences.

Sometimes referred to as "text-adventure" or "Infocom" games (after the
company that made them famous)."
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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Edward Franks]

On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 10:43  AM, Jim Leonard wrote:
[Snip]

Adventures progress through decision, not action.  Since you can't
significantly change Mafia's story or outcomes based on your 
decisions, it's
not an adventure game.  People confuse this a lot; they think that 
great
storytelling equals "adventure game", which is incorrect.  Half-Life 
had
excellent storytelling, but was it an adventure game?

	No, but Half-Life swiped a number of elements from 
adventure/role-playing games to give a needed twist to first person 
shooters.  For example, the very end was definitely an adventure-style 
situation.

--

Edward Franks


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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Edward Franks]

On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 10:09  AM, Jim Leonard wrote:
[Snip]

At its most basic, Adventure + Action, subgenres Cyberpunk, Dark 
Sci-Fi.
There are strategy elements but they are not overwhelming.  Moby has 
it as:
http://www.mobygames.com/game/sheet/gameId,681/ and if you check the 
genre
classifications, I agree with them.

	Ah.  I see I differ in that I would say that System Shock is more 
role-playing than adventure, but I would have Role-Playing as a equal 
genre of adventure rather than as a sub-genre.  But that's a different 
argument, so given the Moby definitions, I'd say you have it fairly 
well down.

That was it?  What about stuff that's offbeat, like Harmony or Zyll?  
Come on,
kick me!!  :-)

	I'm afraid I haven't been playing the more exotic games.  :)  I'll 
have to sit back and see what the others bring up.

--

Edward Franks


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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Karl Kuras]

> Adventures progress through decision, not action.  Since you can't
> significantly change Mafia's story or outcomes based on your decisions,
it's
> not an adventure game.  People confuse this a lot; they think that great
> storytelling equals "adventure game", which is incorrect.  Half-Life had
> excellent storytelling, but was it an adventure game?

So if a game can only have one final outcome, no multiple endings then it's
not an adventure?  I mean, just because you solve "puzzles" doesn't mean you
are actually changing the story, just that you're unlocking the next path
along the road the designers already set in stone.

Karl Kuras


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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Edward Franks]

On Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 06:48  PM, Marco Thorek wrote:
[Snip]

Beside documenting pretty much ignorance from people who publish
articles, this also shows that there still is no public appreciation 
for
the roots of computer gaming, not even among those who like to play
games. Old movies are considered classics and are watched, old games 
are
just obsolete. Except for, well, us and a few others.

	How many people watch silent movies from the 1910s and 1920s?  Or even 
the run of the mill Black and White talkies?

	I would imagine that the early games are similar to silent movies for 
most people.  Computer games as an entertainment medium is still very 
young.  Give it a couple of more decades.  :)

--

Edward Franks


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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Karl Kuras wrote:
> 
> > Trust me, I can classify them.  :)  Genres haven't blurred; people's minds
> > have.  Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult.
> 
> I'll give this dare a try... how about Mafia?
> I mean, it's a driving game, a shooter, and some would say an adventure.

Adventures progress through decision, not action.  Since you can't
significantly change Mafia's story or outcomes based on your decisions, it's
not an adventure game.  People confuse this a lot; they think that great
storytelling equals "adventure game", which is incorrect.  Half-Life had
excellent storytelling, but was it an adventure game?

So:  Action + Racing; subgenres 3rd-person perspective, shooter.  

(FYI: I added the above information, slightly reworked, as tomorrow's
MobyGames Random Thought.  I also correct the Mafia entry, to remove
Adventure.)
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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Marco Thorek wrote:
> 
> Jim Leonard schrieb:
> >
> > > It seems to me, the farther we move into the present, the harder it is
> > > to classify a game. Some genres have blurred beyond recognition.
> >
> > Trust me, I can classify them.  :)  Genres haven't blurred; people's minds
> > have.  Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult.
> 
> Hm, how about Deus Ex, Thief and System Shock 2? They incorporate
> adventure style puzzles, but also have character development like CRPGs
> and yet use elements from and look like FPS on a first glance.

All of these are from Looking Glass and Warren Spector, LOL :-)  They have
adventure-style puzzles, but that does not necessarily make them adventure
games.  Given the nature of flow through them, though, I would entertain
arguments that they are, but please see my previous post outlining what
defines an Adventure game before starting.

Otherwise, they're Action, subgenres 1st-person, shooting, puzzle-solving.
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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Karl Kuras]

> At its most basic, Adventure + Action, subgenres Cyberpunk, Dark Sci-Fi.

Come on... simply calling it Action Adventure ignores the Character
development aspects of the game and simply labeling a game where shooting
occurs as Action would lump Space Invaders, Doom and Tomb Raider into the
same category and let's face it, that is like saying that The French
Connection, Rambo and Hard Boiled are all action movies, but they really
have little to nothing in common and probably wouldn't even appeal to the
same group of people.

Karl Kuras


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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Marco Thorek]

Jim Leonard schrieb:
> 
> >
> > System Shock?  Taking into account all the combinations of the
> > difficulty levels?  :-D
> 
> At its most basic, Adventure + Action, subgenres Cyberpunk, Dark Sci-Fi.
> There are strategy elements but they are not overwhelming.  Moby has it as:
> http://www.mobygames.com/game/sheet/gameId,681/ and if you check the genre
> classifications, I agree with them.

Well, according to Moby it belongs to six genres. I thought about a game
belonging to one genre, like in the good old days. 

I remember the German Happy-Computer magazine periodically published
extra gaming editions and they were categorized by genre: RPG, Action,
Adventure, Sports, etc. Games that couldn't be classified clearly had
their own category, "Rest of the world." Elite was in there, as well as
Psi-5 Trading, Koronis Rift and Alter Ego. Today "Rest of the world"
woul probably make up most of the magazine.

Marco

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Edward Franks wrote:
> 
> On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 09:29  AM, Jim Leonard wrote:
> [Snip]
> >> It seems to me, the farther we move into the present, the harder it is
> >> to classify a game. Some genres have blurred beyond recognition.
> >
> > Trust me, I can classify them.  :)  Genres haven't blurred; people's
> > minds
> > have.  Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult.
> 
> System Shock?  Taking into account all the combinations of the
> difficulty levels?  :-D

At its most basic, Adventure + Action, subgenres Cyberpunk, Dark Sci-Fi. 
There are strategy elements but they are not overwhelming.  Moby has it as:
http://www.mobygames.com/game/sheet/gameId,681/ and if you check the genre
classifications, I agree with them.

That was it?  What about stuff that's offbeat, like Harmony or Zyll?  Come on,
kick me!!  :-)
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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Edward Franks]

On Tuesday, January 21, 2003, at 03:01  AM, John Romero wrote:
[Snip]

The Apple II version of King's Quest was one of the early
double-resolution 16-color games and subsequent Sierra adventures used
that graphics mode.  Double-res on the Apple II was 160x192 with 16
colors.  Mixed-mode graphics on the C64 was 160x200 with 4 colors (from
a 16-color palette) per 4x8 character block.  It was just a logical
decision to use the same assets and resolution as the other popular
platforms.


	From a game developer's viewpoint, when or what things made the IBM PC 
the platform of choice over the Apple IIs, C64s, etc.?  I know that on 
the business side of programming the common wisdom is that 640K RAM was 
the key (VisiCalc vs. Lotus 1-2-3). Was it the ubiquity of the PC 
clones? VGA graphics? Reaching the limitations of 8-bit platform or an 
intersection of all three?

	In a way the PC seemed to be a step backward for games in the mid '80s 
to about '90 because of the lack of decent sound.  Though, for example, 
Sierra pushed the various sound cards and external units, most of the 
people I knew didn't buy sound cards until the time of Wing Commander 
or Doom.

--

Edward Franks


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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Pedro Quaresma]

Jim Leonard wrote:
>Trust me, I can classify them.  :)  Genres haven't blurred; people's minds
>have.  Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult.

Jagged Alliance, Birthright. 

Wait, want really difficult ones? OK then: Europa 1400 The Guild, King of Dragon Pass :)

--
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Administração e Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes / 
Lotus Notes Admnistration and Development
[EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext. 3492)

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity." - Albert Einstein
 




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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Pedro Quaresma]

Jim Leonard wrote:
>What made Lucasarts games worth playing,
>thankfully, were the clever and engaging storylines and puzzles, which were
>good enough to force people through the awful interface.

Clever and engaging storylines, agreed (up to a certain period), but awful interface? I admit the first version of the SCUMM system (Zak Mcracken, Maniac Mansion) was poor, but the one used on the Monkeys and DoTT is, IMHO, in the very least pretty decent. And so was the icon-based one they used later starting on, I believe Sam & Max.

Sure, a parser is more precise when interpreting your ideas into the game, but an icon-based one can often be more rewarding.

As a sidenote on interfaces, I believe Ultima 6 was the first game to have both an icon-based interface _and_ also an "initial based" one ('O' for open, 'C' for cast, etc) I think most people, even those who were not used to the previous game, barely used the icons.

--
Pedro R. Quaresma
Salvador Caetano IMVT
Div. Sistemas de Informação / Systems and Information Division
Administração e Desenvolvimento Lotus Notes / 
Lotus Notes Admnistration and Development
[EMAIL PROTECTED] // +351 22 7867000 (ext. 3492)

"It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity." - Albert Einstein
 




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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Karl Kuras]

> Yes, but since those games are just Sierra-style games with verbs and
nouns
> you can pick from a list, it's still a derivative from IF (except this
time
> the parser forces a limited subset of words you can choose from, in a very
> specific two-word combo).  The "pick words from a list"-style adventure
system
> was no better than Sierra's.  What made Lucasarts games worth playing,
> thankfully, were the clever and engaging storylines and puzzles, which
were
> good enough to force people through the awful interface.

But by that logic, you could say that a game like Jack the Nipper, or
Garfield: Big Fat Hair Deal were derivatives of IF as well, since you went
through the game, and with the correct selection of moves (to pick up, and
drop items, talk to characters, etc.) you went through a story.  The
interface had just changed from words typed in or chosen from a list to
words chosen by specific joystick and fire button combos.  It seems that any
game that tells a story and has the character influence that story in any
way beyond just jumping and running would be an IF.  That just completely
ignores the actual play mechanics which are what a "Genre" is supposed to be
defining.

Karl Kuras


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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Marco Thorek]

Jim Leonard schrieb:
>
> > It seems to me, the farther we move into the present, the harder it is
> > to classify a game. Some genres have blurred beyond recognition.
> 
> Trust me, I can classify them.  :)  Genres haven't blurred; people's minds
> have.  Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult.

Hm, how about Deus Ex, Thief and System Shock 2? They incorporate
adventure style puzzles, but also have character development like CRPGs
and yet use elements from and look like FPS on a first glance.

I admit, three nasty choices, but these are the ones I was always unsure
where to put. 

Marco

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Karl Kuras]

> Trust me, I can classify them.  :)  Genres haven't blurred; people's minds
> have.  Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult.

I'll give this dare a try... how about Mafia?
I mean, it's a driving game, a shooter, and some would say an adventure.

Karl Kuras


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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Edward Franks]

On Wednesday, January 22, 2003, at 09:29  AM, Jim Leonard wrote:
[Snip]

It seems to me, the farther we move into the present, the harder it is
to classify a game. Some genres have blurred beyond recognition.


Trust me, I can classify them.  :)  Genres haven't blurred; people's 
minds
have.  Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult.

	System Shock?  Taking into account all the combinations of the 
difficulty levels?  :-D

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Karl Kuras wrote:
> 
> > Jim Leonard schrieb:
> > >
> > > At MobyGames we go over this every so often; people keep wanting to
> somehow
> > > *define* the words "adventure game" to mean "Sierra games" (the Quest
> games,
> > > etc.)
> 
> I always called that type of game a Graphic Adventure, mainly because it's
> what Lucasarts put as a label on Indiana Jones and the last crusade (they

Yes, but since those games are just Sierra-style games with verbs and nouns
you can pick from a list, it's still a derivative from IF (except this time
the parser forces a limited subset of words you can choose from, in a very
specific two-word combo).  The "pick words from a list"-style adventure system
was no better than Sierra's.  What made Lucasarts games worth playing,
thankfully, were the clever and engaging storylines and puzzles, which were
good enough to force people through the awful interface.
-- 
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The world's most comprehensive gaming database project.

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Marco Thorek wrote:
> 
> > Others want to actually create a new genre specifically for
> > "Sierra-like games".  As official taxonomer for MobyGames, they will forever
> > remain in our system as what they really are:  Interactive Fiction with
> > Graphics.  This puts them in the same category as Mask of the Sun, Arthur: The
> > Quest for Excalibur, etc.  Because when you get down to it, all of the games
> > Sierra put out from 1984 to 1991 that required text input are exactly that --
> > interactive fiction with graphics.  The text parser may be bad, but it's still
> > a parser and still required to complete the game.  Entrance into a new
> > room/area doesn't always print out a text description, but you do get text
> > updates of events/locations/dialogue.  So it's a gimmicky variant.
> 
> Well, yes, as a matter of fact that would be correct. Would you put the
> later Sierra adventures, which were entirely mouse driven IIRC?

No, of course not -- there's no text parser so it doesn't qualify as
Interactive Fiction.  They just get classified as Adventure, with possible
subgenres.
 
> It seems to me, the farther we move into the present, the harder it is
> to classify a game. Some genres have blurred beyond recognition.

Trust me, I can classify them.  :)  Genres haven't blurred; people's minds
have.  Go ahead -- hit me with something difficult.
-- 
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The world's most comprehensive gaming database project.

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Karl Kuras]

> Jim Leonard schrieb:
> >
> > At MobyGames we go over this every so often; people keep wanting to
somehow
> > *define* the words "adventure game" to mean "Sierra games" (the Quest
games,
> > etc.)

I always called that type of game a Graphic Adventure, mainly because it's
what Lucasarts put as a label on Indiana Jones and the last crusade (they
had two versions, the Action game and the Graphic Adventure).  Guess that
makes more sense then any other label, because it's an adventure that is
played out in a graphic enviornment... text adventures with graphics are
just that, text adventures with graphics, they could really exist without
the images.

Karl Kuras


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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Marco Thorek]

Jim Leonard schrieb:
> 
> At MobyGames we go over this every so often; people keep wanting to somehow
> *define* the words "adventure game" to mean "Sierra games" (the Quest games,
> etc.)  

Well, I can imagine. I remember having vivid discussions over at
comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure over this

http://www.gamingnexus.com/article.asp?ID=2

and this 

http://fourfatchicks.com/Rants/Commentary/Contemplation.shtml

article with the respective editors. When you read through them you'll
note that for these people adventure gaming started with Sierra and
Lucas. Before that was nothing. 

Beside documenting pretty much ignorance from people who publish
articles, this also shows that there still is no public appreciation for
the roots of computer gaming, not even among those who like to play
games. Old movies are considered classics and are watched, old games are
just obsolete. Except for, well, us and a few others.

> Others want to actually create a new genre specifically for
> "Sierra-like games".  As official taxonomer for MobyGames, they will forever
> remain in our system as what they really are:  Interactive Fiction with
> Graphics.  This puts them in the same category as Mask of the Sun, Arthur: The
> Quest for Excalibur, etc.  Because when you get down to it, all of the games
> Sierra put out from 1984 to 1991 that required text input are exactly that --
> interactive fiction with graphics.  The text parser may be bad, but it's still
> a parser and still required to complete the game.  Entrance into a new
> room/area doesn't always print out a text description, but you do get text
> updates of events/locations/dialogue.  So it's a gimmicky variant.

Well, yes, as a matter of fact that would be correct. Would you put the
later Sierra adventures, which were entirely mouse driven IIRC, and
those from Legend in the same category?

It seems to me, the farther we move into the present, the harder it is
to classify a game. Some genres have blurred beyond recognition.

Marco

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Karl Kuras wrote:
> 
> I didn't know that the SCI version was rare... the Amiga and ST ports both
> used that graphic set... most likely due to the porting happening later.

No, the AGI version was rare.  The SCI version was pimped heavily because it
was the first interpreter to allow external music devices (and had a decent
score to support them).
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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Karl Kuras]

> Sadly, most PC-to-Amiga conversions (I've never used an ST, sadly) were
slower
> than the original.  PC programmers were contracted to port to Amiga
instead of
> hiring Amiga people to do the conversions.  Or, if Amiga people were
> contracted, they had a hard time porting 8086 assembler over to 68000
> assembler, or did it 1-to-1 where they didn't try to optimize any code
(use
> additional registers, etc.)  Or the people porting to Amiga simply didn't
> understand Amiga graphics hardware.

This is so true... too many games were horrid on the Amiga for this very
reason... probably a big contributor to the system's virtual non-existence
in the US.  Lucasarts was the big exception to this.  their ports of MI2 and
Indy 4 (despite the huge disk swapping issues for the harddriveless like me)
were wonderful demonstrations of just how good a game could look in 32
colors.

> King's Quest 4 was the first SCI system using 320x200 16-color graphics.
They
> built the SCI system at the same time they were writing/scripting KQ4, so
they
> had two developlment tracks for it:  AGI and SCI.  Both versions were
> released, but the AGI version is fairly rare.  Screenshots of both
versions
> are here: http://www.mobygames.com/game/shots/gameId,129/

I didn't know that the SCI version was rare... the Amiga and ST ports both
used that graphic set... most likely due to the porting happening later.

Karl Kuras


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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Karl Kuras wrote:
> 
> Actually, I hate to say this, but until the 256 color versions of the games
> appeared, the Amiga and ST ports were 1-1 conversions of the PC games.  No
> improvements whatsoever... in fact many of them ran slower.

Sadly, most PC-to-Amiga conversions (I've never used an ST, sadly) were slower
than the original.  PC programmers were contracted to port to Amiga instead of
hiring Amiga people to do the conversions.  Or, if Amiga people were
contracted, they had a hard time porting 8086 assembler over to 68000
assembler, or did it 1-to-1 where they didn't try to optimize any code (use
additional registers, etc.)  Or the people porting to Amiga simply didn't
understand Amiga graphics hardware.  Star Control is a great example of this: 
the melee portion was very simple sprite combat, but Star Control running on
an Amiga 500 did full-frame updates in a chunky manner (not planar).  It was
sheer incompetence.
 
> This actually goes to the issue of the lowest common denominator argument
> made earlier.  They really did just cater to the lowest graphical platform
> (Apple II for several years until I believe Space Quest III or KQ 4 came
> out... not sure which was first).  And then ported those libraries straight
> to other systems.

King's Quest 4 was the first SCI system using 320x200 16-color graphics.  They
built the SCI system at the same time they were writing/scripting KQ4, so they
had two developlment tracks for it:  AGI and SCI.  Both versions were
released, but the AGI version is fairly rare.  Screenshots of both versions
are here: http://www.mobygames.com/game/shots/gameId,129/

Two of my favorites:  
AGI: http://www.mobygames.com/game/shots/gameId,129/gameShotId,1998/
SCI: http://www.mobygames.com/game/shots/gameId,129/gameShotId,2076/

The above two shots clearly illustrate my frustration with the AGI system,
because both AGI and SCI ran in the same 320x200 graphics mode :-)
 
> Another side issue, if memory serves me correctly the original version of
> KQ1 (for the PC Jr.) did not have mouse support... this was only added later
> for those platforms that did have mice like the Amiga and ST.  Can someone
> confirm this?

Yes, all Sierra games for the PC and compatibles did not have mouse support
until 1987, with the conversion of their AGI system to DOS (was previously a
proprietary bootable disk).  And only then was the mouse used to navigate the
menus once you pulled them down -- they were not used for controlling objects,
etc.  Even the joystick was more useful since you could control the character
with it :-)  Only in 1990 with KQ5 and the icon-based system did the mouse
become integral.
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RE: RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[John Romero]

I remember playing the Atari ST version of Black Cauldron and it was a
straight port of the 16-color Apple II version.

- John
 


> -Original Message-
> From: Karl Kuras [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 2:57 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
> 
> 
> Actually, I hate to say this, but until the 256 color 
> versions of the games appeared, the Amiga and ST ports were 
> 1-1 conversions of the PC games.  No improvements 
> whatsoever... in fact many of them ran slower.
> 
> This actually goes to the issue of the lowest common 
> denominator argument made earlier.  They really did just 
> cater to the lowest graphical platform (Apple II for several 
> years until I believe Space Quest III or KQ 4 came out... not 
> sure which was first).  And then ported those libraries 
> straight to other systems.
> 
> As far as I know the C64 had no Quest games at all.  I found 
> a catalog listing KQ1 for the C64 once, but this was then 
> corrected in later catalogs and never mentioned again.  Not 
> sure why this change was made, but ultimately it doesn't matter.
> 
> Another side issue, if memory serves me correctly the 
> original version of KQ1 (for the PC Jr.) did not have mouse 
> support... this was only added later for those platforms that 
> did have mice like the Amiga and ST.  Can someone confirm this?
> 
> Karl Kuras
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 12:39 PM
> Subject: Re: RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
> 
> 
> > Starting in 1986, I played most of these games on the Atari 
> ST and/or
> Amiga.  I seem to recall the graphics being improved over the 
> Apple/PC/C-64 versions, and I recall using a mouse.  Has 
> anybody compared the originals to the Amiga/ST ports?  That 
> could have a big effect on Jim's technology concerns.  I know 
> that Karl is a big Amiga fan, and they might have had two 
> very different experiences playing the same game.
> >
> > Hugh
> >
> >
> > ---Original Message---
> > From: John Romero <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: 01/21/03 01:01 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
> >
> > >
> > > > But the animations were incredibly crude because the sprites
> > > were inexplicably limited to half-horizontal-resolution sprites!  
> > > And so were the backgrounds! I originally thought this 
> would be for 
> > > a speed increase or storage requirement decrease -- but on closer 
> > > examination, the text boxes that pop up show that the game is 
> > > running in 320x200, which is not half-horiz-res.  And 
> since the game
> > > backgrounds were all vector graphics, it would not have taken
> > > up that much more space to hold 320x200 coordinates.  It
> > > drove me nuts to see, game after game, graphics created and
> > > displayed at 160x200 running in a 320x200 graphics mode!
> >
> > I believe the reason why the graphics on the PC were so low res is 
> > because they were merely ports of the Apple II games to start with. 
> > Then, when they moved over to developing the titles on the PC, they 
> > didn't change their engine technology because that 
> resolution was the 
> > most compatible with the C-64 and Apple II systems of the day.
> >
> > The Apple II version of King's Quest was one of the early 
> > double-resolution 16-color games and subsequent Sierra 
> adventures used 
> > that graphics mode.  Double-res on the Apple II was 160x192 with 16 
> > colors.  Mixed-mode graphics on the C64 was 160x200 with 4 colors 
> > (from a 16-color palette) per 4x8 character block.  It was just a 
> > logical decision to use the same assets and resolution as the other 
> > popular platforms.
> >
> > - John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> --
> > This message was sent to you because you are currently 
> subscribed to 
> > the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to 
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect' 
> > Archives are available at: 
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
> >
> > >
> >
> > 
> --
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> >

Re: RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Karl Kuras]

Actually, I hate to say this, but until the 256 color versions of the games
appeared, the Amiga and ST ports were 1-1 conversions of the PC games.  No
improvements whatsoever... in fact many of them ran slower.

This actually goes to the issue of the lowest common denominator argument
made earlier.  They really did just cater to the lowest graphical platform
(Apple II for several years until I believe Space Quest III or KQ 4 came
out... not sure which was first).  And then ported those libraries straight
to other systems.

As far as I know the C64 had no Quest games at all.  I found a catalog
listing KQ1 for the C64 once, but this was then corrected in later catalogs
and never mentioned again.  Not sure why this change was made, but
ultimately it doesn't matter.

Another side issue, if memory serves me correctly the original version of
KQ1 (for the PC Jr.) did not have mouse support... this was only added later
for those platforms that did have mice like the Amiga and ST.  Can someone
confirm this?

Karl Kuras

- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 2003 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1


> Starting in 1986, I played most of these games on the Atari ST and/or
Amiga.  I seem to recall the graphics being improved over the Apple/PC/C-64
versions, and I recall using a mouse.  Has anybody compared the originals to
the Amiga/ST ports?  That could have a big effect on Jim's technology
concerns.  I know that Karl is a big Amiga fan, and they might have had two
very different experiences playing the same game.
>
> Hugh
>
>
> ---Original Message---
> From: John Romero <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: 01/21/03 01:01 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
>
> >
> > > But the animations were incredibly crude because the sprites
> > were inexplicably limited to half-horizontal-resolution
> > sprites!  And so were the backgrounds!
> > I originally thought this would be for a speed increase or
> > storage requirement decrease -- but on closer examination,
> > the text boxes that pop up show that the game is running in
> > 320x200, which is not half-horiz-res.  And since the game
> > backgrounds were all vector graphics, it would not have taken
> > up that much more space to hold 320x200 coordinates.  It
> > drove me nuts to see, game after game, graphics created and
> > displayed at 160x200 running in a 320x200 graphics mode!
>
> I believe the reason why the graphics on the PC were so low res is
> because they were merely ports of the Apple II games to start with.
> Then, when they moved over to developing the titles on the PC, they
> didn't change their engine technology because that resolution was the
> most compatible with the C-64 and Apple II systems of the day.
>
> The Apple II version of King's Quest was one of the early
> double-resolution 16-color games and subsequent Sierra adventures used
> that graphics mode.  Double-res on the Apple II was 160x192 with 16
> colors.  Mixed-mode graphics on the C64 was 160x200 with 4 colors (from
> a 16-color palette) per 4x8 character block.  It was just a logical
> decision to use the same assets and resolution as the other popular
> platforms.
>
> - John
>
>
>
>
> --
> This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
> the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
> Archives are available at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
>
> >
>
> --
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Re: RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[hughfalk]

Starting in 1986, I played most of these games on the Atari ST and/or Amiga.  I seem 
to recall the graphics being improved over the Apple/PC/C-64 versions, and I recall 
using a mouse.  Has anybody compared the originals to the Amiga/ST ports?  That could 
have a big effect on Jim's technology concerns.  I know that Karl is a big Amiga fan, 
and they might have had two very different experiences playing the same game.

Hugh


---Original Message---
From: John Romero <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: 01/21/03 01:01 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

> 
> > But the animations were incredibly crude because the sprites 
> were inexplicably limited to half-horizontal-resolution 
> sprites!  And so were the backgrounds! 
> I originally thought this would be for a speed increase or 
> storage requirement decrease -- but on closer examination, 
> the text boxes that pop up show that the game is running in 
> 320x200, which is not half-horiz-res.  And since the game 
> backgrounds were all vector graphics, it would not have taken 
> up that much more space to hold 320x200 coordinates.  It 
> drove me nuts to see, game after game, graphics created and 
> displayed at 160x200 running in a 320x200 graphics mode!

I believe the reason why the graphics on the PC were so low res is
because they were merely ports of the Apple II games to start with.
Then, when they moved over to developing the titles on the PC, they
didn't change their engine technology because that resolution was the
most compatible with the C-64 and Apple II systems of the day.

The Apple II version of King's Quest was one of the early
double-resolution 16-color games and subsequent Sierra adventures used
that graphics mode.  Double-res on the Apple II was 160x192 with 16
colors.  Mixed-mode graphics on the C64 was 160x200 with 4 colors (from
a 16-color palette) per 4x8 character block.  It was just a logical
decision to use the same assets and resolution as the other popular
platforms.

- John
 



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RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[John Romero]

> But the animations were incredibly crude because the sprites 
> were inexplicably limited to half-horizontal-resolution 
> sprites!  And so were the backgrounds! 
> I originally thought this would be for a speed increase or 
> storage requirement decrease -- but on closer examination, 
> the text boxes that pop up show that the game is running in 
> 320x200, which is not half-horiz-res.  And since the game 
> backgrounds were all vector graphics, it would not have taken 
> up that much more space to hold 320x200 coordinates.  It 
> drove me nuts to see, game after game, graphics created and 
> displayed at 160x200 running in a 320x200 graphics mode!

I believe the reason why the graphics on the PC were so low res is
because they were merely ports of the Apple II games to start with.
Then, when they moved over to developing the titles on the PC, they
didn't change their engine technology because that resolution was the
most compatible with the C-64 and Apple II systems of the day.

The Apple II version of King's Quest was one of the early
double-resolution 16-color games and subsequent Sierra adventures used
that graphics mode.  Double-res on the Apple II was 160x192 with 16
colors.  Mixed-mode graphics on the C64 was 160x200 with 4 colors (from
a 16-color palette) per 4x8 character block.  It was just a logical
decision to use the same assets and resolution as the other popular
platforms.

- John
 



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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Karl Kuras wrote:
> 
> Now your main gripe seems to be with the fact that you can't just be in a
> room and say I want to do X.  This was at first mainly a technical problem
> of doing pathfinding routines (notice that later Sierra and Lucasarts games
> all take care of this for you automatically through mouse controls.  KQ1 was
> meant to be played with a joystick or keyboard, so you didn't have a mouse
> to point at stuff and intereact with it through icons (granted the Amiga and
> I believe Mac versions both had mouse support but they were just ports made
> at a later time.  When Maniac Mansion is released these problems are dealt
> with).

I have to stop you there -- any game requiring text input couldn't possibly
have been meant to be played entirely with a joystick.  While it was lack of
foresight not to create an icon-based system controllable with the joystick,
not changing that formula until 1991 is inexcusable.  (Tass Times in Tonetown,
in 1986, is the first game I can remember that perfected this.  You could
indeed play the entire IF with a joystick.)

> Also, the old descriptions in text adventures were replaced by graphics.
> This changed the nature of the puzzle solving from the old "ok, what items
> are listed in the descrption and let's play with those" to "what items are
> drawn with any kind of detail and let's play with those".  Part of the

I can accept this argument as what they were going for, but since the graphics
were 160x100 low-res, there wasn't much room for detail and I think they
missed the mark.  It didn't work, initially.  Later releases didn't improve on
this because they used the higher res of 320x200 to just draw smaller objects.

> appeal, especially in those early games was to try to find the items of
> interest, like watching an old detective movie and spotting which character
> was missing from the scene, because he was off murdering someone.  Text
> adventures just had to tell you what happened and give it away or not tell
> you making it unfair.

You haven't played enough text adventures.  Even the original classic "you are
in a maze of twisty passages, all alike" was like you describe -- a single
room was described slightly differently than the others.  Witness also
Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, where a description changes in a subtle
way.  And those are just some small Infocom examples.  I haven't played much
IF to completion, but I have played more Sierra games to completion and at the
end of almost every one I have questioned the use of my time.  :)
 
> Despite the fact that this post is coming out a bit disjointed, another
> great addition of the Sierra style game was that you could finally have
> something besides straight choose your own adventure style gameplay.  Action
> sequences were added to the games (Conquest of Camelot being probably the
> best example of this), which began to bridge gaps between genres and giving
> much more realistic feeling experiences, especially since you could now
> actually see scenes played out that would otherwise just be described.

Yes, but you've jumped too far ahead.  Those games (post-1991) are out of the
scope of this debate as they allow full mouse control.  Besides, the action
sequences were a bit clunky IMO -- better than nothing, I guess, but worse
than even a bad pure action game.

Despite my writing, I'm not specifically declaring that Sierra games sucked. 
:-)  I wouldn't have played so many (about 8 to completion) if I didn't enjoy
*something*...  What I'm trying to understand is why they survived for so long
when they were clearly a novelty and not a true innovation to the IF (or any
interactive storytelling) genre.  I think you hit the nail on the head when
you wrote "more accessible to younger audiences that were quickly bored by
pages and pages of text".
-- 
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Hugh Falk wrote:
> 
> Sure, I wouldn't call it 3D either, but I would call it "quasi-3D", which is
> why I asked for a definition (since the default definition would be "almost
> but not quite" 3D).  One could argue that true 3D is not possible on a 2D
> monitor.

One could argue the game wasn't 3D at all.  :)  Because it wasn't.  You were
limited to 2 degrees of movement, X and Y.  The illusion of 3D can be
attributed to the background graphics you were walking on and sprites
obscuring your screen.  But there was nothing 3D about them.
 
> While I'm on the topic, I'll assert that Atari's arcade version of "Night
> Driver" was the first ever "quasi-3D" videogame (released in October 1976).
> It was the first to approximate a 3D perspective.

Unless someone comes up with a better example, I agree.
-- 
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

"Feldhamer, Stuart" wrote:
> 
> First of all, there was the novelty. At first it was pretty cool to be able
> to see your character on the screen.

That is 90% of it right there.  I can't see any other reason.
 
> Second, the animations. Even in their first game, KQ1, Sierra animated stuff
> like swimming. In later games, when you try to perform an action, you can
> actually see yourself doing it. Contrast this with seeing a picture of a
> snake in front of you and typing "kill snake with rock" and then the game
> responds with "The snake is dead", and it just disappears from the screen.
> >From a puzzle perspective this is fine, but from an entertainment
> perspective, I like being able to see what the character is doing.

But the animations were incredibly crude because the sprites were inexplicably
limited to half-horizontal-resolution sprites!  And so were the backgrounds! 
I originally thought this would be for a speed increase or storage requirement
decrease -- but on closer examination, the text boxes that pop up show that
the game is running in 320x200, which is not half-horiz-res.  And since the
game backgrounds were all vector graphics, it would not have taken up that
much more space to hold 320x200 coordinates.  It drove me nuts to see, game
after game, graphics created and displayed at 160x200 running in a 320x200
graphics mode!

I swear, if I ever get in contact with Jeff Stephenson I am going to throttle
that guy :-)  I would LOVE to ask him why he designed the entire thing in
low-res when all the output devices were regular res.
 
> Third, the action sequences. OK, I didn't actually like this, but the
> addition of the 3D movement allowed Sierra to put in such "challenging"
> tasks as making sure you didn't fall off the bridge into the moat, or
> running away from the dwarf.

This was much much more of a hinderance than providing any actual benefit. 
Like climbing the beanstalk/walking up the stairs to the ogre -- remember how
many times you had to go over that sequence over and over before you got it
right?  You had about 12 pixels leeway before the game was over.
 
> Which tree do you mean, the 1st tree, the 2nd tree, the 3rd tree, the 4th
> treeetc.

I have never encountered that, but then again I've only played about 7 IF
games to completion.  Still, I find it hard to believe that the creators of
the game would allow something like that to get in the way of playing.
 
> OK, maybe not such a great example. But when I played Kings Quest 2 for the
> 1st time (the 1st Kings Quest I played), I was always typing "LOOK DOWN".
> This actually gave logical responses based upon where on the screen you were
> standing. So it might say "You see nothing of note" or "You see a hollow
> stump". I found that cool also. In general, I think they did a fairly good
> job with the system.

But that was so much extra effort!  Walk, type, walk, type, walk, type...
 
> I will admit though, that it's more fun to click on a spot on the screen
> with the mouse and have the character move there automatically (and start to
> interact with something), than to first have to move the character with the
> arrow keys and then type something in. Sierra eventually realized that too.
> So maybe its original AGI system was ahead of its time, waiting for mice to
> become popular.

Based on the 160x200 argument, I am having a hard time believing it was ahead
of it's time.  :-)  And vector graphics were the *only* game in town for IF+G
games until about 1986.
-- 
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Marco Thorek wrote:
> 
> Was there ever a special subcategory named to classify the later Sierra
> and Lucasfilm adventures?

At MobyGames we go over this every so often; people keep wanting to somehow
*define* the words "adventure game" to mean "Sierra games" (the Quest games,
etc.)  Others want to actually create a new genre specifically for
"Sierra-like games".  As official taxonomer for MobyGames, they will forever
remain in our system as what they really are:  Interactive Fiction with
Graphics.  This puts them in the same category as Mask of the Sun, Arthur: The
Quest for Excalibur, etc.  Because when you get down to it, all of the games
Sierra put out from 1984 to 1991 that required text input are exactly that --
interactive fiction with graphics.  The text parser may be bad, but it's still
a parser and still required to complete the game.  Entrance into a new
room/area doesn't always print out a text description, but you do get text
updates of events/locations/dialogue.  So it's a gimmicky variant.
-- 
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Marco Thorek]

Jim Leonard schrieb:
> 
> I wouldn't call that 3D -- it's interactive fiction with graphics drawn in a
> 3D perspective.  To contrast, the "Quest" games let you move something "in
> front of" or "behind" another on-screen object, so that qualifies more as 3D
> than Mystery House.

I remember that back in those days there were just two distinctions for
adventure games: text adventures and graphical adventures. The first, of
course, the likes of Zork, etc., the latter anything that came with
graphics, like Magnetic Scrolls, Telarium/Trillium and so on. I'd put
Mystery House in the second category.

The earliest games I can remember that today would fit the description
of a 3D adventure because of their gameplay and use of 3D graphics in
the current definition of the term are Mercenary from Novagen and Cholo
from Firebird. 

Was there ever a special subcategory named to classify the later Sierra
and Lucasfilm adventures?

Marco

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RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Hugh Falk]

To add some validation however, this "fact" has been published by many
soruces, including books, by Sierra itself, and in an article I worte for
C|net (for what that's worth).  And nobody has publicly stood up to dispute
it yet.

Hugh

-Original Message-
From: C.E. Forman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Saturday, January 18, 2003 1:52 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1


> (1) The first adventure game with text + graphics was Mystery House.
> All adventure games before Mystery House were purely text.
> http://www.xyzzynews.com/xyzzy.7f.html

Don't put too much stock in anything in XYZZYnews... I'm the one who wrote
this, back when I was first getting into game collecting and history.  It's
based on what I'd learned from numerous (popular) opinions, and I found
nothing to contradict it at the time, but that doesn't mean there wasn't an
obscure, forgotten graphical adventure game a few months/days before that.



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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[C.E. Forman]

> (1) The first adventure game with text + graphics was Mystery House.
> All adventure games before Mystery House were purely text.
> http://www.xyzzynews.com/xyzzy.7f.html

Don't put too much stock in anything in XYZZYnews... I'm the one who wrote
this, back when I was first getting into game collecting and history.  It's
based on what I'd learned from numerous (popular) opinions, and I found
nothing to contradict it at the time, but that doesn't mean there wasn't an
obscure, forgotten graphical adventure game a few months/days before that.



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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Edward Franks]

On Saturday, January 18, 2003, at 03:09  PM, John Romero wrote:
[Snip]

(3) Your question "Was King's Quest 1 really the first quasi-3D
adventure game released for the IBM line?" The answer: King's Quest
1 was the first GAME ever released for the new IBM PC back in 1984.  
The
release date on MobyGames is incorrect -- that's the release date for
the remake.

	Don't you mean the IBM PCjr?  ;-)  The IBM PC was released in August 
1981.  The first game for _that_ was Microsoft Adventure according to 
Dan Bricklin.  

--

Edward Franks


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RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[John Romero]

Okay, I thought most people knew the answers to these questions.  Here's
what you're looking for.

(1) The first adventure game with text + graphics was Mystery House.
All adventure games before Mystery House were purely text.
http://www.xyzzynews.com/xyzzy.7f.html

(2) The King's Quest series and all other subsequent Sierra adventures
were based on the Mystery House text + graphics formula with the
addition of being able to control your character.  Even back when King's
Quest was released, most games were still text + graphics but without
character control.

(3) Your question "Was King's Quest 1 really the first quasi-3D
adventure game released for the IBM line?" The answer: King's Quest
1 was the first GAME ever released for the new IBM PC back in 1984.  The
release date on MobyGames is incorrect -- that's the release date for
the remake.

If you want more info on this:
http://www.adventurecollective.com/reviews/kq1.htm

- John
 


> -Original Message-
> From: Hugh Falk [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 11:27 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
> 
> 
> Sure, I wouldn't call it 3D either, but I would call it 
> "quasi-3D", which is why I asked for a definition (since the 
> default definition would be "almost but not quite" 3D).  One 
> could argue that true 3D is not possible on a 2D monitor.
> 
> While I'm on the topic, I'll assert that Atari's arcade 
> version of "Night Driver" was the first ever "quasi-3D" 
> videogame (released in October 1976). It was the first to 
> approximate a 3D perspective.
> 
> Sorry, just being difficult :-)
> 
> 
> Hugh
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 8:30 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
> 
> 
> Hugh Falk wrote:
> >
> > Well, how do you define quasi-3D adventure?  You could say that 
> > Mystery House, the first adventure with graphics, was also 
> the first 
> > quasi-3D. Since the graphics had a 3D perspective (See attached).
> 
> I wouldn't call that 3D -- it's interactive fiction with 
> graphics drawn in a 3D perspective.  To contrast, the "Quest" 
> games let you move something "in front of" or "behind" 
> another on-screen object, so that qualifies more as 3D than 
> Mystery House.
> --
> Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
> http://www.oldskool.org/
> Want to help an ambitious games project? 
> http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some > trippy MindCandy 
> at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
> 
> --
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> send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 
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> http://www.mail-> [EMAIL PROTECTED]/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
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RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Hugh Falk]

Sure, I wouldn't call it 3D either, but I would call it "quasi-3D", which is
why I asked for a definition (since the default definition would be "almost
but not quite" 3D).  One could argue that true 3D is not possible on a 2D
monitor.

While I'm on the topic, I'll assert that Atari's arcade version of "Night
Driver" was the first ever "quasi-3D" videogame (released in October 1976).
It was the first to approximate a 3D perspective.

Sorry, just being difficult :-)


Hugh

-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 8:30 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1


Hugh Falk wrote:
>
> Well, how do you define quasi-3D adventure?  You could say that Mystery
> House, the first adventure with graphics, was also the first quasi-3D.
> Since the graphics had a 3D perspective (See attached).

I wouldn't call that 3D -- it's interactive fiction with graphics drawn in a
3D perspective.  To contrast, the "Quest" games let you move something "in
front of" or "behind" another on-screen object, so that qualifies more as 3D
than Mystery House.
--
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project?
http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at
http://www.mindcandydvd.com/

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Karl Kuras]

> Honestly, what is the appeal of Sierra's "Quest" games?  Anyone who likes
> them, please shed some light on the subject.

Ok, I guess I have to throw my hat into this ring... As a huge fan of both
the old text/still graphic adventures AND the Sierra/Lucasart style games,
they both have their own appeal.  But the Sierra games did change some key
aspects of the old text games and for the better.

Now your main gripe seems to be with the fact that you can't just be in a
room and say I want to do X.  This was at first mainly a technical problem
of doing pathfinding routines (notice that later Sierra and Lucasarts games
all take care of this for you automatically through mouse controls.  KQ1 was
meant to be played with a joystick or keyboard, so you didn't have a mouse
to point at stuff and intereact with it through icons (granted the Amiga and
I believe Mac versions both had mouse support but they were just ports made
at a later time.  When Maniac Mansion is released these problems are dealt
with).

Also, the old descriptions in text adventures were replaced by graphics.
This changed the nature of the puzzle solving from the old "ok, what items
are listed in the descrption and let's play with those" to "what items are
drawn with any kind of detail and let's play with those".  Part of the
appeal, especially in those early games was to try to find the items of
interest, like watching an old detective movie and spotting which character
was missing from the scene, because he was off murdering someone.  Text
adventures just had to tell you what happened and give it away or not tell
you making it unfair.

The visual nature of the games (which many people including Ken Williams
admit were one of the big reasons people bought Adventure games, aka show
off your hardware) was a major issue on its own and was therefore very
important.  The whole idea that you could move a sprite behind stuff was
pretty far out back then for a home computer and made the game more
accessible to younger audiences that were quickly bored by pages and pages
of text.

I can't recall how many times I was ticked off at text adventures that would
show stuff in the images (especially on later games for 16 bit machines,
which had much more detailed pictures) and since they weren't mentioned in
the descriptions I couldn't interact with them.

Despite the fact that this post is coming out a bit disjointed, another
great addition of the Sierra style game was that you could finally have
something besides straight choose your own adventure style gameplay.  Action
sequences were added to the games (Conquest of Camelot being probably the
best example of this), which began to bridge gaps between genres and giving
much more realistic feeling experiences, especially since you could now
actually see scenes played out that would otherwise just be described.

I guess a good comparison would be between the text adventure The Hobbit and
Sierra's The Black Cauldron (which yes, was a point and click affair, but
still).  I use both of these because they were both cartoons and books I
grew up on and so they spanned all three of my favorite mediums.  There are
moments in The Hobbit that just don't come to life, not only because of the
relatively limited parser (not the greatest game engine in the text
adventure arena), but because you just lack the animation.  At the end of
the Black Cauldron when the little furry guy runs right into the pot, that's
a moment that will stick with me forever... much more so then a paragraph
describing it.

Karl Kuras
aka Trantor
http://drawnsword.trantornator.com
Yeah, go visit my webcomic!


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RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Feldhamer, Stuart]

OK, let's see here:

First of all, there was the novelty. At first it was pretty cool to be able
to see your character on the screen.

Second, the animations. Even in their first game, KQ1, Sierra animated stuff
like swimming. In later games, when you try to perform an action, you can
actually see yourself doing it. Contrast this with seeing a picture of a
snake in front of you and typing "kill snake with rock" and then the game
responds with "The snake is dead", and it just disappears from the screen.
>From a puzzle perspective this is fine, but from an entertainment
perspective, I like being able to see what the character is doing.

Third, the action sequences. OK, I didn't actually like this, but the
addition of the 3D movement allowed Sierra to put in such "challenging"
tasks as making sure you didn't fall off the bridge into the moat, or
running away from the dwarf.

Ultimately, you are right that "A decent story and flexible parser with
multiple outcomes is
what immerses you in a story, not moving a little blocky sprite around the
screen." Luckily, games with sprites moving around the screen can also have
good stories and flexible means of entering commands.

I'd like to respond to some of your other criticism about "getting closer"
and stuff like that. Imagine this scenario:

>LOOK

You see a grove of 10 trees.

>EXAMINE TREE

Which tree do you mean, the 1st tree, the 2nd tree, the 3rd tree, the 4th
treeetc.

In a Quest game, you just walk to the tree you are interested in and poke
around.

OK, maybe not such a great example. But when I played Kings Quest 2 for the
1st time (the 1st Kings Quest I played), I was always typing "LOOK DOWN".
This actually gave logical responses based upon where on the screen you were
standing. So it might say "You see nothing of note" or "You see a hollow
stump". I found that cool also. In general, I think they did a fairly good
job with the system.

I will admit though, that it's more fun to click on a spot on the screen
with the mouse and have the character move there automatically (and start to
interact with something), than to first have to move the character with the
arrow keys and then type something in. Sierra eventually realized that too.
So maybe its original AGI system was ahead of its time, waiting for mice to
become popular.

Stuart

-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 11:26 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1


Chris Newman wrote:
> 
> The opinions about the answer to this question are probably subjective
> but I think it's worth asking:
> Was King's Quest 1 really the first quasi-3D adventure game released for
> the IBM line? There

If you are defining "quasi-3D adventure game" as the stereotypical "Sierra"
game -- meaning, a visible protagonist who moves around the screen, and a
limited text parser -- then yes, because it was the first game from Sierra
using that system.

In normal oldwarez or abandonware circles, my next comment would anger a lot
of people, but in this crowd I think I'm amongst peers when I say:  Sierra's
adventure system simply didn't make any sense whatsoever.  In a normal piece
of interactive fiction, you type things like "use key to unlock door.  open
door, then enter." and a lot of niggly stuff was taken care of, like walking
over to the door, using the key, opening the door, and walking through it. 
But in Sierra's "Quest" games, you have to physically maneuver an on-screen
avatar over to the door, type "use key to unlock door" anyway, and then
maneuver him through the door.  I mean, why so complicated?  What is the
point
of making the game much harder to play?  Was it an attempt at compensating
for
the incredibly weak text parser?  If you were nowhere near the door on the
same screen but typed "use key to unlock door", the game would actually
respond "You're not close enough."  Excuse me?  Why are my actions limited
by
distance?  Hello?

My theory is that these types of games survived because they were a novelty.

Something pretty was onscreen, and sprites moved behind other sprites giving
the illusion of depth, and on certain platforms you had decent music.  But
overall *any* piece of interactive fiction with graphics is better -- you
get
to see the graphics, but you don't have to do stupid crap just to "immerse"
you in the game.  A decent story and flexible parser with multiple outcomes
is
what immerses you in a story, not moving a little blocky sprite around the
screen.

Honestly, what is the appeal of Sierra's "Quest" games?  Anyone who likes
them, please shed some light on the subject.
-- 
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to h

Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

"Feldhamer, Stuart" wrote:
> 
> I was talking about Mystery House, not King's Quest...

Whoops -- my bad.  :)  It was the first commercially successful one, but I
agree it seems foolish to call it the *first* interactive fiction with
graphics.  But until another is found, it wins.
-- 
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Hugh Falk wrote:
> 
> Well, how do you define quasi-3D adventure?  You could say that Mystery
> House, the first adventure with graphics, was also the first quasi-3D.
> Since the graphics had a 3D perspective (See attached).

I wouldn't call that 3D -- it's interactive fiction with graphics drawn in a
3D perspective.  To contrast, the "Quest" games let you move something "in
front of" or "behind" another on-screen object, so that qualifies more as 3D
than Mystery House.
-- 
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/

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RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Feldhamer, Stuart]

I was talking about Mystery House, not King's Quest...

-Original Message-
From: Jim Leonard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 11:16 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1


"Feldhamer, Stuart" wrote:
> 
> Supposedly it was the first text adventure with graphics, but I suspect it
> would be difficult to prove this...

Hardly -- I remember playing Mask of the Sun in 1983, a full year before
King's Quest.  The very first interactive fiction game with graphics would
be
pretty hard to lock down -- I guess you can argue it was Mystery House, but
the parser in Mystery House is so pathetic that it barely qualifies as
interactive fiction :-)
-- 
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project?
http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at
http://www.mindcandydvd.com/

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Information in this message reflects current market conditions and is subject to 
change without notice. It is believed to be reliable, but is not guaranteed for 
accuracy or completeness. Details provided do not supersede your normal trade 
confirmations or statements. Any product is subject to prior sale. CIBC World Markets 
Corp, its affiliated companies, and their officers or employees, may have a position 
in or make a market in any security described above, and may act as an investment 
banker or advisor to such.  Although CIBC World Markets Corp. is an indirect, wholly 
owned subsidiary of Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce ("CIBC"), it is solely 
responsible for its contractual obligations. Any securities products recommended, 
purchased, or sold in any client accounts (i) will not be insured by the FDIC, 
(ii)will not be deposits or obligations of CIBC, (iii) will not be endorsed or 
guaranteed by CIBC, and (iv) will be subject to risks, including possible loss of 
principal in!
vested.

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

Chris Newman wrote:
> 
> The opinions about the answer to this question are probably subjective
> but I think it's worth asking:
> Was King's Quest 1 really the first quasi-3D adventure game released for
> the IBM line? There

If you are defining "quasi-3D adventure game" as the stereotypical "Sierra"
game -- meaning, a visible protagonist who moves around the screen, and a
limited text parser -- then yes, because it was the first game from Sierra
using that system.

In normal oldwarez or abandonware circles, my next comment would anger a lot
of people, but in this crowd I think I'm amongst peers when I say:  Sierra's
adventure system simply didn't make any sense whatsoever.  In a normal piece
of interactive fiction, you type things like "use key to unlock door.  open
door, then enter." and a lot of niggly stuff was taken care of, like walking
over to the door, using the key, opening the door, and walking through it. 
But in Sierra's "Quest" games, you have to physically maneuver an on-screen
avatar over to the door, type "use key to unlock door" anyway, and then
maneuver him through the door.  I mean, why so complicated?  What is the point
of making the game much harder to play?  Was it an attempt at compensating for
the incredibly weak text parser?  If you were nowhere near the door on the
same screen but typed "use key to unlock door", the game would actually
respond "You're not close enough."  Excuse me?  Why are my actions limited by
distance?  Hello?

My theory is that these types of games survived because they were a novelty. 
Something pretty was onscreen, and sprites moved behind other sprites giving
the illusion of depth, and on certain platforms you had decent music.  But
overall *any* piece of interactive fiction with graphics is better -- you get
to see the graphics, but you don't have to do stupid crap just to "immerse"
you in the game.  A decent story and flexible parser with multiple outcomes is
what immerses you in a story, not moving a little blocky sprite around the
screen.

Honestly, what is the appeal of Sierra's "Quest" games?  Anyone who likes
them, please shed some light on the subject.
-- 
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/

--
This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Jim Leonard]

"Feldhamer, Stuart" wrote:
> 
> Supposedly it was the first text adventure with graphics, but I suspect it
> would be difficult to prove this...

Hardly -- I remember playing Mask of the Sun in 1983, a full year before
King's Quest.  The very first interactive fiction game with graphics would be
pretty hard to lock down -- I guess you can argue it was Mystery House, but
the parser in Mystery House is so pathetic that it barely qualifies as
interactive fiction :-)
-- 
Jim Leonard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])http://www.oldskool.org/
Want to help an ambitious games project? http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/

--
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RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Feldhamer, Stuart]

Supposedly it was the first text adventure with graphics, but I suspect it
would be difficult to prove this...

Stuart

-Original Message-
From: Chris Newman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2003 9:38 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1


True -- I should have said "animated 3D adventure". 

Was Mystery House the first graphical game? I know it's the first
runaway hit, but I wonder if there wasn't someone else with a baggie
operation, selling homemade games to stores.

Hugh Falk wrote:
> 
> Well, how do you define quasi-3D adventure?  You could say that Mystery
> House, the first adventure with graphics, was also the first quasi-3D.
> Since the graphics had a 3D perspective (See attached).
> 
> Hugh
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Newman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 5:44 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
> 
> The opinions about the answer to this question are probably subjective
> but I think it's worth asking:
> Was King's Quest 1 really the first quasi-3D adventure game released for
> the IBM line? There
> were already hundreds of game titles available for the PC when the Jr
> made its debut with Sierra's
> infamous release, but I don't recall if any where of the same style. At
> the time I found KQ1 so
> enthralling that it could have easily clouded by memory in favor of
> Sierra.
> 
> Chris
> 
> --
> This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
> the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
> Archives are available at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
> 
>   
>   Name: Mysteryh[1].jpg
>Mysteryh[1].jpgType: JPEG Image (image/jpeg)
>   Encoding: base64

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Information in this message reflects current market conditions and is subject to 
change without notice. It is believed to be reliable, but is not guaranteed for 
accuracy or completeness. Details provided do not supersede your normal trade 
confirmations or statements. Any product is subject to prior sale. CIBC World Markets 
Corp, its affiliated companies, and their officers or employees, may have a position 
in or make a market in any security described above, and may act as an investment 
banker or advisor to such.  Although CIBC World Markets Corp. is an indirect, wholly 
owned subsidiary of Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce ("CIBC"), it is solely 
responsible for its contractual obligations. Any securities products recommended, 
purchased, or sold in any client accounts (i) will not be insured by the FDIC, 
(ii)will not be deposits or obligations of CIBC, (iii) will not be endorsed or 
guaranteed by CIBC, and (iv) will be subject to risks, including possible loss of 
principal in!
vested.

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Chris Newman]

True -- I should have said "animated 3D adventure". 

Was Mystery House the first graphical game? I know it's the first
runaway hit, but I wonder if there wasn't someone else with a baggie
operation, selling homemade games to stores.

Hugh Falk wrote:
> 
> Well, how do you define quasi-3D adventure?  You could say that Mystery
> House, the first adventure with graphics, was also the first quasi-3D.
> Since the graphics had a 3D perspective (See attached).
> 
> Hugh
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Newman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 5:44 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
> 
> The opinions about the answer to this question are probably subjective
> but I think it's worth asking:
> Was King's Quest 1 really the first quasi-3D adventure game released for
> the IBM line? There
> were already hundreds of game titles available for the PC when the Jr
> made its debut with Sierra's
> infamous release, but I don't recall if any where of the same style. At
> the time I found KQ1 so
> enthralling that it could have easily clouded by memory in favor of
> Sierra.
> 
> Chris
> 
> --
> This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
> the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
> Archives are available at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
> 
>   
>   Name: Mysteryh[1].jpg
>Mysteryh[1].jpgType: JPEG Image (image/jpeg)
>   Encoding: base64

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Re: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Chris Newman]

That's why I said it's objective. I take a real 3D adventure to mean a
360 view, such as with today's crop of first person shooters like Thief,
Medal of Honor, Return to Wolf, etc. The technology wasn't there 20
years ago so the 3D was an approximation. In KQ1 Sir Graham cannot
change his viewing perspective, and each scene is flat. 

Stuart Feldhamer wrote:
> 
> King's Quest 1 was the first adventure game where you could move the
> character around on the screen, as far as I know. What is a "quasi-3D
> adventure game"? How about "Asylum"?
> 
> Stuart
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Chris Newman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 8:44 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1
> 
> The opinions about the answer to this question are probably subjective
> but I think it's worth asking:
> Was King's Quest 1 really the first quasi-3D adventure game released for
> the IBM line? There
> were already hundreds of game titles available for the PC when the Jr
> made its debut with Sierra's
> infamous release, but I don't recall if any where of the same style. At
> the time I found KQ1 so
> enthralling that it could have easily clouded by memory in favor of
> Sierra.
> 
> Chris
> 
> --
> This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
> the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of 'unsubscribe swcollect'
> Archives are available at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/swcollect@oldskool.org/
> 
> --
> This message was sent to you because you are currently subscribed to
> the swcollect mailing list.  To unsubscribe, send mail to
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RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Hugh Falk]

Well, how do you define quasi-3D adventure?  You could say that Mystery
House, the first adventure with graphics, was also the first quasi-3D.
Since the graphics had a 3D perspective (See attached).


Hugh

-Original Message-
From: Chris Newman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 5:44 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1


The opinions about the answer to this question are probably subjective
but I think it's worth asking:
Was King's Quest 1 really the first quasi-3D adventure game released for
the IBM line? There
were already hundreds of game titles available for the PC when the Jr
made its debut with Sierra's
infamous release, but I don't recall if any where of the same style. At
the time I found KQ1 so
enthralling that it could have easily clouded by memory in favor of
Sierra.

Chris


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<>

RE: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1

[Stuart Feldhamer]

King's Quest 1 was the first adventure game where you could move the
character around on the screen, as far as I know. What is a "quasi-3D
adventure game"? How about "Asylum"?

Stuart

-Original Message-
From: Chris Newman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2003 8:44 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [SWCollect] King's Quest 1


The opinions about the answer to this question are probably subjective
but I think it's worth asking:
Was King's Quest 1 really the first quasi-3D adventure game released for
the IBM line? There
were already hundreds of game titles available for the PC when the Jr
made its debut with Sierra's
infamous release, but I don't recall if any where of the same style. At
the time I found KQ1 so
enthralling that it could have easily clouded by memory in favor of
Sierra.

Chris


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