Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
John, this also goes the other way round, although I welcome the purging of the group by the likes of MY, I also notice that it gets quite sterile, in the form of an ingroup discussion of nuclear chemists. This is over my head, I must confess. Being a -hopefully- level-headed engineer myself, -but not in the core profession of say: nuclear chemistry - I find this peripherally interesting, but not essential. The list quickly devolved into an ingroup discussion of this or that detail in the 233 theories of what maybe the case. If nobody does any real work on the topic, but only scholastizises on this or that, I do not see the point, to resolve anything. Both are wrong. Lost balance. This is a complicated issue on multiple dimensions. Getting rid of pathological skeptics is one thing, focussing on a narrow technical issue, another. I can leave the group by a non-click, so what is the point anyhow? Well. Say something relevant for the general public. OR: Be nuclear chemists doing some REAL work, i.e. devise setups, deliver results, and do not pretend being Einstein. - Von: John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com An: vortex-l@eskimo.com vortex-l@eskimo.com Gesendet: 21:56 Sonntag, 22.Januar 2012 Betreff: Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group You mean the Steorn that hand-picked a jury of scientists to test their technology, which then unanimously determined that Steorn failed to show any signs of excess energy?
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
In reply to David Roberson's message of Sun, 22 Jan 2012 18:01:02 -0500 (EST): Hi, [snip] I believe that the danger in operating the device in maximum feedback is that the nickel will melt and that will end the power generation permanently. It most likely will require an operation temperature that is controlled and set to the proper level for the desired heat output power. Dave [snip] Yes, the cooling needs to be adequate to carry away the energy produced, and the fuel supply rate determines the power output. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
On Sun, 22 Jan 2012, Mary Yugo wrote: It is absolutely inane to ask critics to read the literature. You think we have nothing better to do than to spend time with unlimited quantities of inadequate and difficult to understand papers? Certainty that LENR critics should be ignorant of LENR evidence? Hm. And applying negative labels to papers never read, in order to excuse any need to read them? That's really insane. That's flamer crap, a totally blatant symptom of irrational, emotion-based pseudoscience generally called pathological skepticism or pseudo-skepticism. Rational, scientific people don't do that stuff, even by mistake. It's your job as proponent of this technology to choose the few papers, in any exist, maybe two or three best ones, for us to read. No, it's the critic's job to know the topic before judging. It's the basic method of science: judging *after* inspecting evidence, thus avoiding emotional bias leading to data selection error. Really, this is like finding an odd restaurant critic who believes that going to numerous restaurants is Just Not Done, and that all restaurants should deliver food to the restaurant reviewer's office. This attitude is a huge red-flag for the pretend-scientist... to already have judged (perhaps based only on concensus-following, not on personal study?) then to find perfectly sensible reasons to not read read on the topic they're judging. Very tricky. It should be papers that show at least a watt of CLEARLY and PROPERLY measured excess heat with no infusion of fresh fuel, running vastly longer -- orders of magnitude longer -- than a chemical reaction or stored heat could provide. And you leap to the conclusion that no such papers exist? Amazing. THAT is what Rossi failed to do. THAT is what you have failed to point us to. And it's your job as the proponent to do the pointing. It is not our job to go rummaging through all the stuff. This above, this is the stereotyped attack of the Scoffer/flamer/troll. It's what they always try, over numerous instances starting back in 1989 on Compuserve. Giving such people some research papers (or pointing out books and reference articles) falls right into the dishonest rhetorical trap they've prepared for their victim. Don't do it. Their request for papers is fake. It's Trolling, it's a 'politician' ploy. Think a moment: a rational critic of LENR would already know the field; at the very least have read the pro/con books, found reading lists, reviewed recommended papers, etc. A troll instead twists the debate around, attacking with utter confidence based on their own false certainty, then blaming the victim of the attack for not having done the critic's background work for them. And if the victim refuses to fall for it, they can say See, they wouldn't send me those papers! Making a victim of your attack look bad? And convincing onlookers that the attacker is the wronged party? That's an elegant ploy taken right from the con-artist list; from the political arena, and is quite disgusting from the standpoint of the extreme honesty required throughout science. And when done habitually, skillfully, it's a huge flashing sign saying THIS IS A TROLL. Sometimes an intellectually honest, sharp person will make an occasional slip into very twisted dishonesty. This above does not resemble such a case. You have no idea how many papers describe the results you say have never been published. Anyone who has read the literature can see that you are wrong. Really? You think it's some sort of universal stupidity or pernicious viciousness that prevents the majority of nuclear scientists and physicists No, they use exactly the same excuses that you're using right now. That's how these community-wide false concensuses always arise. I decide to sneer at Goddard only because everyone else is sneering at Goddard, and of course That Many Scientists Cannot Be Mistaken. Scientific American totally refuses to send any reporters to Huffman Prarie to view the Wright Flyer, saying it's because other newspapers haven't already sent reporters. The balanced razor blade falls in one direct5ion, and the research community insists that an enormous force must have pushed it that way, so their thoughtless judgement must be correct. from believing that robust energy production has been achieved with LENR? That would be simple paranoia. Accusing the victims of 'suppression of intellectual dissent' of paranoia? That one's right out of my symptoms-list of the Pseudoskeptic. OK, I'm convinced. Mary Yugo, you're seem to be the very prototype of the emotion-based pseudoscientist. Blocking you from fringe science forums is the reason Vortex-L exists in the first place. PS The fake name, that *really* is a signifier of the common Troll. (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. Beaty
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
On Sun, 22 Jan 2012, Dusty Bradshaw wrote: Some of us doubters would rather unsubscribe but since this is like Hotel California, welp.. Also, didn't know this was a religion here, worshipping at the altar of fringe science? Is this a cult or science, and where can I get off this train? How about, unsubscribe or be ejected? So you never read the forum rules? That's a common newbie mistake. The rules were sent to you upon subscription. They're also on the forum page http://amasci.com/weird/wvort.html#rules Vortex-L is an anti-Skeptic tilted playing field for fringe sci Believers. If you self-identify as a Skeptic, then why would you subscribe except to break rules? (( ( ( ( ((O)) ) ) ) ))) William J. BeatySCIENCE HOBBYIST website billb at amasci com http://amasci.com EE/programmer/sci-exhibits amateur science, hobby projects, sci fair Seattle, WA 206-762-3818unusual phenomena, tesla coils, weird sci
RE: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
Bill, There are many new-comers to the Collective due to vortex-l being mentioned on one or more of the websites covering the whole Rossi/E-Cat fiasco... and because of that, there have been numerous requests for references, which of course Vorts, and mostly Jed, have kindly provided links. So the idiotic excuse that Mary uses to avoid reducing her ignorance level is suspicious to say the least... links have been provided... she's just too lazy, or purposely ignoring them. Perhaps she could use the excuse that there just are so many postings to read thru... but wait, SHE is the reason for that. She is by far the queen of useless postings (now a total of 907 since only 11/10/2011, only two months!)... to say 'prolific' is an understatement, unfortunately she is prolifically repetitious. You also need to look at Shaun and Eff's postings... Thanks for looking into this and hopefully restoring some rational discussion and a strong signal to the Collective... -Mark -Original Message- From: William Beaty [mailto:bi...@eskimo.com] Sent: Monday, January 23, 2012 1:23 AM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group On Sun, 22 Jan 2012, Mary Yugo wrote: It is absolutely inane to ask critics to read the literature. You think we have nothing better to do than to spend time with unlimited quantities of inadequate and difficult to understand papers? Certainty that LENR critics should be ignorant of LENR evidence? Hm. And applying negative labels to papers never read, in order to excuse any need to read them? That's really insane. That's flamer crap, a totally blatant symptom of irrational, emotion-based pseudoscience generally called pathological skepticism or pseudo-skepticism. Rational, scientific people don't do that stuff, even by mistake. It's your job as proponent of this technology to choose the few papers, in any exist, maybe two or three best ones, for us to read. No, it's the critic's job to know the topic before judging. It's the basic method of science: judging *after* inspecting evidence, thus avoiding emotional bias leading to data selection error. Really, this is like finding an odd restaurant critic who believes that going to numerous restaurants is Just Not Done, and that all restaurants should deliver food to the restaurant reviewer's office. This attitude is a huge red-flag for the pretend-scientist... to already have judged (perhaps based only on concensus-following, not on personal study?) then to find perfectly sensible reasons to not read read on the topic they're judging. Very tricky. It should be papers that show at least a watt of CLEARLY and PROPERLY measured excess heat with no infusion of fresh fuel, running vastly longer -- orders of magnitude longer -- than a chemical reaction or stored heat could provide. And you leap to the conclusion that no such papers exist? Amazing. THAT is what Rossi failed to do. THAT is what you have failed to point us to. And it's your job as the proponent to do the pointing. It is not our job to go rummaging through all the stuff. This above, this is the stereotyped attack of the Scoffer/flamer/troll. It's what they always try, over numerous instances starting back in 1989 on Compuserve. Giving such people some research papers (or pointing out books and reference articles) falls right into the dishonest rhetorical trap they've prepared for their victim. Don't do it. Their request for papers is fake. It's Trolling, it's a 'politician' ploy. Think a moment: a rational critic of LENR would already know the field; at the very least have read the pro/con books, found reading lists, reviewed recommended papers, etc. A troll instead twists the debate around, attacking with utter confidence based on their own false certainty, then blaming the victim of the attack for not having done the critic's background work for them. And if the victim refuses to fall for it, they can say See, they wouldn't send me those papers! Making a victim of your attack look bad? And convincing onlookers that the attacker is the wronged party? That's an elegant ploy taken right from the con-artist list; from the political arena, and is quite disgusting from the standpoint of the extreme honesty required throughout science. And when done habitually, skillfully, it's a huge flashing sign saying THIS IS A TROLL. Sometimes an intellectually honest, sharp person will make an occasional slip into very twisted dishonesty. This above does not resemble such a case. You have no idea how many papers describe the results you say have never been published. Anyone who has read the literature can see that you are wrong. Really? You think it's some sort of universal stupidity or pernicious viciousness that prevents the majority of nuclear scientists and physicists No, they use exactly the same excuses that you're using right now. That's how these community
[Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
I would like to quote the founding policies of this discussion group, written by Bill Beaty: http://www.amasci.com/weird/wvort.html NO SNEERING. Ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is banned. Pathological Skepticism is banned (see the link.) The tone here should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate. Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave in disgust. But if your mind is open and you wish to test crazy claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on board! See also: http://amasci.com/weird/vmore.html Many people who have shown up here lately seem to be unaware of these rules, or they are unwilling to abide by them. They have been carrying out vendettas, writing insults, using off-color language, and calling other people here bad names. They do act according to academic decorum, which calls for a large measure of polite hypocrisy. Some degree of ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is inevitable. It is human nature. But there has been far too much lately. These people include Mary Yugo, Axil Axil, John Milstone, Eff Wivakeef and others. You know who you are. If you will not stop this childish nonsense, I ask you to shut up and go away. I ask Bill Beaty to ban you. I have been adding you to my personal kill file, but there seems to be so many of you lately, and you are so noisy, you are interfering with scientific discourse, and perverting the spirit of this forum. The Internet is unbounded. You can form your own discussion group. You can subscribe to this group while you post your attacks and ad hominem elsewhere. Or take it to VortexB-L. Of course we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
Axil Axil believes in Rossi. He just opened a thread about him, with ideas on how the powder was chosen.Please, pay attention. 2012/1/22 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com I would like to quote the founding policies of this discussion group, written by Bill Beaty: http://www.amasci.com/weird/wvort.html NO SNEERING. Ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is banned. Pathological Skepticism is banned (see the link.) The tone here should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate. Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave in disgust. But if your mind is open and you wish to test crazy claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on board! See also: http://amasci.com/weird/vmore.html Many people who have shown up here lately seem to be unaware of these rules, or they are unwilling to abide by them. They have been carrying out vendettas, writing insults, using off-color language, and calling other people here bad names. They do act according to academic decorum, which calls for a large measure of polite hypocrisy. Some degree of ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is inevitable. It is human nature. But there has been far too much lately. These people include Mary Yugo, Axil Axil, John Milstone, Eff Wivakeef and others. You know who you are. If you will not stop this childish nonsense, I ask you to shut up and go away. I ask Bill Beaty to ban you. I have been adding you to my personal kill file, but there seems to be so many of you lately, and you are so noisy, you are interfering with scientific discourse, and perverting the spirit of this forum. The Internet is unbounded. You can form your own discussion group. You can subscribe to this group while you post your attacks and ad hominem elsewhere. Or take it to VortexB-L. Of course we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. - Jed -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
I don't need to ridicule you Jed. You are already ridiculous. Having crazy ideas is fine, you are quite welcome to your crazy ideas. It is aiding and abetting scamsters that I object to. Have a wacky day Keef
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 10:16 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: Of course we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. Perhaps you could take a moment to explain how citing sources which can't be named, which supposedly make claims in support of Rossi, and which you claim told you they did independent tests but can't reveal materials, methods and results -- maybe you can explain how that constitutes a part of a technical discussion. If it isn't, why are you doing it?
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
This is not the first time you complain to Bill Beaty and nothing happens. Perhaps it is time for you(and me, btw) to move to another list or forum, given that the original guidelines are not followed? 2012/1/22 Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com I would like to quote the founding policies of this discussion group, written by Bill Beaty: http://www.amasci.com/weird/wvort.html NO SNEERING. Ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is banned. Pathological Skepticism is banned (see the link.) The tone here should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate. Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave in disgust. But if your mind is open and you wish to test crazy claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on board! See also: http://amasci.com/weird/vmore.html Many people who have shown up here lately seem to be unaware of these rules, or they are unwilling to abide by them. They have been carrying out vendettas, writing insults, using off-color language, and calling other people here bad names. They do act according to academic decorum, which calls for a large measure of polite hypocrisy. Some degree of ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is inevitable. It is human nature. But there has been far too much lately. These people include Mary Yugo, Axil Axil, John Milstone, Eff Wivakeef and others. You know who you are. If you will not stop this childish nonsense, I ask you to shut up and go away. I ask Bill Beaty to ban you. I have been adding you to my personal kill file, but there seems to be so many of you lately, and you are so noisy, you are interfering with scientific discourse, and perverting the spirit of this forum. The Internet is unbounded. You can form your own discussion group. You can subscribe to this group while you post your attacks and ad hominem elsewhere. Or take it to VortexB-L. Of course we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. - Jed -- Daniel Rocha - RJ danieldi...@gmail.com
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: Axil Axil believes in Rossi. He just opened a thread about him, with ideas on how the powder was chosen.Please, pay attention. I noticed some intemperate language from him. I ask him to stop it, that's all. NO SNEERING means NO SNEERING. Okay, we all do it from time to time, but it has gotten out of hand. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
Daniel Rocha danieldi...@gmail.com wrote: This is not the first time you complain to Bill Beaty and nothing happens. He will probably act sooner or later. He is like me, a procrastinator. He rules with a light hand. Perhaps it is time for you(and me, btw) to move to another list or forum, given that the original guidelines are not followed? Give Bill a little time. These eruptions usually go away on their own, when noisy opponents get tired of repeating themselves. However, this spate of bad behavior has gone on for several weeks, and I sense it is getting worse. It was probably brought about by mass media coverage of Rossi. Rossi's flamboyant behavior contributes to it. Some coverage of Rossi's weird behavior and his roller-coaster business model is inevitable. Like the guy in the beer commercial, he is the most interesting man in the world. He is the life of parties he has never attended -- including this one, here at Vortex. I am not suggesting we should impose an iron-clad rule that only science can be discussed. But I think a line has been crossed when an Internet stalker who has it in for Greg Watson comes barging in and posts lunatic messages filled with harsh language. Let us have old fashioned decorum! Always be sincere, whether you mean it or not. (M. Flanders) - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
WTF? You call ME a stalker because I am fulfilling my promise to follow Watson everywhere on the net and expose his filthy scams. You call ME a lunatic for doing the same thing with Rossi. Well I don't give a rat's arse. I'm proud to be a lunatic Keef is a *ucking lunatic who has been stalking the owner of the company who designed and manufactures the suncubes that Zolar will distribute. Thanks for that. Don't mention it.You're welcome. You want fries with that? Woof, miow oom oom (mad cow)
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
A message from Mary Yugo caught my attention before falling into the trash. She wrote: Perhaps you could take a moment to explain how citing sources which can't be named, which supposedly make claims in support of Rossi, and which you claim told you they did independent tests but can't reveal materials, methods and results -- maybe you can explain how that constitutes a part of a technical discussion. If it isn't, why are you doing it? That is a reasonable question. I am doing it because many people here want to hear about these things. They enjoy it, and they ask me to say more. They understand that I am often unable to provide details because never reveal anything without permission. I am the opposite of Steve Krivit. If you do not enjoy what I write, I suggest you ignore it. If it bothers you a lot, please add my name to your kill file. The important point is, my messages do not violate any of the rules set forth by Beaty: NO SNEERING. Ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is banned. 'Pathological Skepticism' is banned (see the link.) . . . Those rules do not say anything about no discussion of unpublished results. Or no discussion of one screen from a presentation by Mike McKubre. It is regrettable that so much in cold fusion has be kept secret, or in a low profile. That is because of academic politics. It is entirely the fault of powerful opponents who have been trying for 23 years to stamp out the research, gut academic freedom, and destroy the lives of the researchers. You are probably not a powerful opponent. I doubt that you have made any phone calls to derail funding or prevent experiments from being published. But when you refuse to read anything about cold fusion, and when you plaster cynical, ignorant comments about cold fusion here and in the mass media response sections, you contribute to the toxic atmosphere. You and the other small-time opponents prolong the travesty. So, to some extent this is your fault. There is plenty of blame to go around. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
It is regrettable that so much in cold fusion has be kept secret, or in a low profile. That is because of academic politics. It is entirely the fault of powerful opponents who have been trying for 23 years to stamp out the research, gut academic freedom, and destroy the lives of the researchers RUBBISH!
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 11:18 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: There is plenty of blame to go around. There certainly is. And most should go to investigators who don't provide clear and unequivocal, independently replicated and properly controlled and calibrated studies using the best state of the art methodology. You've been asked again and again to provide a SINGLE credible paper which shows robust heat production for a long period without the introduction of Joule heating or fresh fuel, thus proving without a doubt a nuclear process. I have yet to see such a paper. You expect critics to believe that LENR is real because of large volumes of papers which are convoluted, often badly written and always needlessly complex. That won't help LENR research. A single properly conducted experiment with robust results and no question of deception would have convinced everyone about Rossi or Defkalion specifically and LENR in general long ago. We're still waiting for it while you say it happened but you can't say who, what and where. We're still waiting for it while you make excuses for obvious tangential responses and evasive posts by Rossi and Defkalion. That is not what they and you should do to make the field credible. You should attack them and not the critics. The critics are the only ones who make sense. A single good result in LENR could not possibly be suppressed. In this internet age, there is no way it could happen. Look at all the attention and acclaim given to Rossi and for what?
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
Look at all the attention and acclaim given to Rossi and for what? To keep the scam going and ripoff more victims. Simple really. Why would anyone choose to believe the word of Rossi the convicted fraudster? Weird or what?
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
Mary, there are serious problems with Rossi's demonstrations that we are all aware of. It is apparent to me that he has a very difficult problem trying to maintain stability of the power output and I have been doing some interesting simulation that tends to support this claim. The October 6 test data shows a clear fingerprint of LENR heat production which I hope to explain soon. All of the other models that I have seen thus far do not respond in a manner that comes even close to explaining the anomaly. These models have been based upon energy storage and release from a large mass of material inside the smaller cube. A better explanation for the curve can be obtained by assuming that a large peak of excess thermal energy is released at the end of the drive cycle due to an inherently unstable thermal run away process that is quenched just before it becomes unstoppable. Dave -Original Message- From: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Jan 22, 2012 2:30 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 11:18 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: There is plenty of blame to go around. There certainly is. And most should go to investigators who don't provide clear and unequivocal, independently replicated and properly controlled and calibrated studies using the best state of the art methodology. You've been asked again and again to provide a SINGLE credible paper which shows robust heat production for a long period without the introduction of Joule heating or fresh fuel, thus proving without a doubt a nuclear process. I have yet to see such a paper. You expect critics to believe that LENR is real because of large volumes of papers which are convoluted, often badly written and always needlessly complex. That won't help LENR research. A single properly conducted experiment with robust results and no question of deception would have convinced everyone about Rossi or Defkalion specifically and LENR in general long ago. We're still waiting for it while you say it happened but you can't say who, what and where. We're still waiting for it while you make excuses for obvious tangential responses and evasive posts by Rossi and Defkalion. That is not what they and you should do to make the field credible. You should attack them and not the critics. The critics are the only ones who make sense. A single good result in LENR could not possibly be suppressed. In this internet age, there is no way it could happen. Look at all the attention and acclaim given to Rossi and for what?
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 11:55 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Mary, there are serious problems with Rossi's demonstrations that we are all aware of. It is apparent to me that he has a very difficult problem trying to maintain stability of the power output and I have been doing some interesting simulation that tends to support this claim. The October 6 test data shows a clear fingerprint of LENR heat production which I hope to explain soon. All of the other models that I have seen thus far do not respond in a manner that comes even close to explaining the anomaly. These models have been based upon energy storage and release from a large mass of material inside the smaller cube. A better explanation for the curve can be obtained by assuming that a large peak of excess thermal energy is released at the end of the drive cycle due to an inherently unstable thermal run away process that is quenched just before it becomes unstoppable. If so, shouldn't Rossi be telling us that? Do you think he told his anonymous customer who supposedly bought **13** power plants consisting of some 600+ individual modular units? Do you believe there is such a customer? Is someone really that dense? What would 13 such things possibly be used for?
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
All, Making sense of Rossi nonsense will continue to frustrate all. Minus independent test results from either Rossi or Defkalion, I found some real evidence on the web of an experiment with energy gains greater than COP 6. A laboratory rat Freddy was tied down in a reactor system similar to the E-Cat used by Rossi. The rat was fed a mixture of Ni nanopowder K2HCO3 mixed with corn meal. We then proceeded to insert a straw down the rat's throat, and connected the other end of the straw to a hydrogen cannister. At exactly 3 PM we opened the valve, and the hydrogen started to flow immediately. After five minutes Freddy showed clear signs of warming up, and at 3: 09: 47 Freddy EXPLODED.. We immediately performed a control experiment with Jerry, Freddy's twin brother, and this time we used an inert gas for the control experiment. Our claims of cold fusion were confirmed by the fact that Jerry exploded after 10 minutes and 13 seconds, a full 26 seconds later than Freddy. We are disappointed however in the reaction of our patent department, they claim they don't think there is a commercial application for this invention. We completely disagree with them. The amount of energy released was incredible, based on the appearence of the lab after the explosion. Oh well, we can always get a nice publication out of it... On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 1:16 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: I would like to quote the founding policies of this discussion group, written by Bill Beaty: http://www.amasci.com/weird/wvort.html NO SNEERING. Ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is banned. Pathological Skepticism is banned (see the link.) The tone here should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate. Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave in disgust. But if your mind is open and you wish to test crazy claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on board! See also: http://amasci.com/weird/vmore.html Many people who have shown up here lately seem to be unaware of these rules, or they are unwilling to abide by them. They have been carrying out vendettas, writing insults, using off-color language, and calling other people here bad names. They do act according to academic decorum, which calls for a large measure of polite hypocrisy. Some degree of ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is inevitable. It is human nature. But there has been far too much lately. These people include Mary Yugo, Axil Axil, John Milstone, Eff Wivakeef and others. You know who you are. If you will not stop this childish nonsense, I ask you to shut up and go away. I ask Bill Beaty to ban you. I have been adding you to my personal kill file, but there seems to be so many of you lately, and you are so noisy, you are interfering with scientific discourse, and perverting the spirit of this forum. The Internet is unbounded. You can form your own discussion group. You can subscribe to this group while you post your attacks and ad hominem elsewhere. Or take it to VortexB-L. Of course we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
Mary Yogo, quoted by David Roberson wrote: You've been asked again and again to provide a SINGLE credible paper which shows robust heat production for a long period without the introduction of Joule heating or fresh fuel, thus proving without a doubt a nuclear process. I have yet to see such a paper. That is because you refuse to look. Drasin has your number: Avoid examining the actual evidence. This allows you to say with impunity, I have seen absolutely no evidence to support such ridiculous claims! (Note that this technique has withstood the test of time, and dates back at least to the age of Galileo. By simply refusing to look through his telescope, the ecclesiastical authorities bought the Church over three centuries' worth of denial free and clear!) http://amasci.com/pathskep.html I see you are using several other time-tested techniques. You have carefully described a test that would be difficult or impossible to meet. Joule heating or electrolysis power is necessary for most experiments. In most cases, fuel is consumed in such microscopic amounts, it would be impossible to avoid introducing thousands or millions of times more than is needed. You have been asked again and again to read the literature. You refuse. So you know nothing about it. You have no idea how many papers describe the results you say have never been published. Anyone who has read the literature can see that you are wrong. I assume you are playing to an audience of people like yourself who know nothing and who refuse to learn anything. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
Eff You could learn from this man , he got his point across , I read his message and stored it . When your name comes up I imediatley delete , pity cause you probably have the ability to share something usefull and I will never read it Pete Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 15:10:18 -0500 Subject: Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group From: cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com All, Making sense of Rossi nonsense will continue to frustrate all. Minus independent test results from either Rossi or Defkalion, I found some real evidence on the web of an experiment with energy gains greater than COP 6. A laboratory rat Freddy was tied down in a reactor system similar to the E-Cat used by Rossi. The rat was fed a mixture of Ni nanopowder K2HCO3 mixed with corn meal. We then proceeded to insert a straw down the rat's throat, and connected the other end of the straw to a hydrogen cannister. At exactly 3 PM we opened the valve, and the hydrogen started to flow immediately. After five minutes Freddy showed clear signs of warming up, and at 3: 09: 47 Freddy EXPLODED.. We immediately performed a control experiment with Jerry, Freddy's twin brother, and this time we used an inert gas for the control experiment. Our claims of cold fusion were confirmed by the fact that Jerry exploded after 10 minutes and 13 seconds, a full 26 seconds later than Freddy. We are disappointed however in the reaction of our patent department, they claim they don't think there is a commercial application for this invention. We completely disagree with them. The amount of energy released was incredible, based on the appearence of the lab after the explosion. Oh well, we can always get a nice publication out of it... On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 1:16 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: I would like to quote the founding policies of this discussion group, written by Bill Beaty: http://www.amasci.com/weird/wvort.html NO SNEERING. Ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is banned. Pathological Skepticism is banned (see the link.) The tone here should be one of legitimate disagreement and respectful debate. Vortex-L is a big nasty nest of 'true believers' (hopefully having some tendency to avoid self-deception,) and skeptics may as well leave in disgust. But if your mind is open and you wish to test crazy claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on board! See also: http://amasci.com/weird/vmore.html Many people who have shown up here lately seem to be unaware of these rules, or they are unwilling to abide by them.They have been carrying out vendettas, writing insults, using off-color language, and calling other people here bad names. They do act according to academic decorum, which calls for a large measure of polite hypocrisy. Some degree of ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is inevitable. It is human nature. But there has been far too much lately. These people include Mary Yugo, Axil Axil, John Milstone, Eff Wivakeef and others. You know who you are. If you will not stop this childish nonsense, I ask you to shut up and go away. I ask Bill Beaty to ban you. I have been adding you to my personal kill file, but there seems to be so many of you lately, and you are so noisy, you are interfering with scientific discourse, and perverting the spirit of this forum. The Internet is unbounded. You can form your own discussion group. You can subscribe to this group while you post your attacks and ad hominem elsewhere. Or take it to VortexB-L. Of course we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
It is strange that anyone would want an unproved and expensive device. I suspect that Rossi thinks that he can work with NI and stabilize the thing, and this may be true. My personal opinion is that some serious engineering work will be required to make the system safe and repeatable. If I were Rossi, I would be looking into a method of core cooling that is active and powerful. The core itself probably should be operating in the thermal run away mode to get the COP into an acceptable range while the cooling needs to be able to prevent additional heat energy from resulting in much higher core internal temperature. The approach used by Defkalion appears to address my issues. Their design includes a very tight thermal control of the core region by the 6 coolant paths. To startup, they would reduce the coolant flow to a minimum allowing the electrical heater to easily raise the core temperature. Once the core reaches an unstable temperature, it will begin to heat rapidly on its own. At that point the coolant flow rate can be increased to absorb the excess heat and achieve the final desired operating temperature. All of the heat energy required to keep the device operating would now be supplied by the core. The overall COP at this point is infinite in the core itself, but the control and pump energy drains would make the net COP as specified. Rossi may not understand the problems that he faces in this task. Actually, no one may really know at this point. The model I am using is quite simple, but makes sense to me. That is no proof that it is accurate however. Why would we expect Rossi to reveal to us his major problems? Most engineers assume that the problems will be defeated sooner or later and see no reason to air the dirty laundry. He has a positive outlook and has overcome many obstacles in his life and these issues appear minor in comparison. To him, the solutions most likely seem just a little way off. Dave -Original Message- From: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Jan 22, 2012 3:01 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 11:55 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Mary, there are serious problems with Rossi's demonstrations that we are all aware of. It is apparent to me that he has a very difficult problem trying to maintain stability of the power output and I have been doing some interesting simulation that tends to support this claim. The October 6 test data shows a clear fingerprint of LENR heat production which I hope to explain soon. All of the other models that I have seen thus far do not respond in a manner that comes even close to explaining the anomaly. These models have been based upon energy storage and release from a large mass of material inside the smaller cube. A better explanation for the curve can be obtained by assuming that a large peak of excess thermal energy is released at the end of the drive cycle due to an inherently unstable thermal run away process that is quenched just before it becomes unstoppable. If so, shouldn't Rossi be telling us that? Do you think he told his anonymous customer who supposedly bought **13** power plants consisting of some 600+ individual modular units? Do you believe there is such a customer? Is someone really that dense? What would 13 such things possibly be used for?
RE: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
Jed, what you have described here is EXACTLY what happened to the Steorn Forum. MaryYugo and all the moletrap clowns took over the forum and it became so abusive that the forum was closed. They are a cancer and a barrier to progress because of their own egos. These people include Mary Yugo, Axil Axil, John Milstone, Eff Wivakeef and others. You know who you are. If you will not stop this childish nonsense, I ask you to shut up and go away. I ask Bill Beaty to ban you. I have been adding you to my personal kill file, but there seems to be so many of you lately, and you are so noisy, you are interfering with scientific discourse, and perverting the spirit of this forum. The Internet is unbounded. You can form your own discussion group. You can subscribe to this group while you post your attacks and ad hominem elsewhere. Or take it to VortexB-L. Of course we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
You mean the Steorn that hand-picked a jury of scientists to test their technology, which then unanimously determined that Steorn failed to show any signs of excess energy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steorn#Jury_process From: *** Craig Brown *** cr...@overunity.co To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 3:49 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group Jed, what you have described here is EXACTLY what happened to the Steorn Forum. MaryYugo and all the moletrap clowns took over the forum and it became so abusive that the forum was closed. They are a cancer and a barrier to progress because of their own egos. These people include Mary Yugo, Axil Axil, John Milstone, Eff Wivakeef and others. You know who you are. If you will not stop this childish nonsense, I ask you to shut up and go away. I ask Bill Beaty to ban you. I have been adding you to my personal kill file, but there seems to be so many of you lately, and you are so noisy, you are interfering with scientific discourse, and perverting the spirit of this forum. The Internet is unbounded. You can form your own discussion group. You can subscribe to this group while you post your attacks and ad hominem elsewhere. Or take it to VortexB-L. Of course we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
Right, critical mode is not easy. for fission reactors, the resonance bells allow to have some working point where power/temperature curve create negative feedback (and also the hopeful unexpected delayed neutron that save the first reactors from fast divergence). Tchernobyl is the example of what happend when you are at the wrong point, with positive feedback. for Ni+H LENR there does not seem to exist a reversible negative feedback, so like any engineer will know you have to stabilize the system with an outside control loop. I'm not suprized that defkalion find a solution... either by cooling, or controlling H pressure. it is basic engineering... You have to avoid delays since they cannot be compensated. of course controlling a hundred of reactor is another story (more about optimal command, than simple PID controlers), but less critical. a big leap for LENR could be to find a catalyst or additive, or maybe a mechanical device, that reduce efficiency quickly if temperature increase, leading to negative feedback. reactor could then be intrinsically stable, like nuke. 2012/1/22 David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com The core itself probably should be operating in the thermal run away mode to get the COP into an acceptable range while the cooling needs to be able to prevent additional heat energy from resulting in much higher core internal temperature. The approach used by Defkalion appears to address my issues. Their design includes a very tight thermal control of the core region by the 6 coolant paths. To startup, they would reduce the coolant flow to a minimum allowing the electrical heater to easily raise the core temperature. Once the core reaches an unstable temperature, it will begin to heat rapidly on its own. At that point the coolant flow rate can be increased to absorb the excess heat and achieve the final desired operating temperature. All of the heat energy required to keep the device operating would now be supplied by the core. The overall COP at this point is infinite in the core itself, but the control and pump energy drains would make the net COP as specified.
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
yes - the rules: Pathological Skepticism is banned if your mind is open and you wish to test crazy claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on board! For what my opinion is worth, it is quite clear from what I have been reading here that those of you who are sincere and positive about this technology might want to create another forum elsewhere (even though as you say Jed this forum was created with the above rules set down). Those who, perhaps imagining they have good intentions, but are clogging this space up with negativity, are clearly not going to leave. In fact they will probably call over their like minded vulture mates to join in until all the meat is gone. Sounds drastic, but email all those who are on board and find better pastures. Thanks for all your great work those of you who count. Tom On 22 January 2012 20:49, *** Craig Brown *** cr...@overunity.co wrote: Jed, what you have described here is EXACTLY what happened to the Steorn Forum. MaryYugo and all the moletrap clowns took over the forum and it became so abusive that the forum was closed. They are a cancer and a barrier to progress because of their own egos. ** ** These people include Mary Yugo, Axil Axil, John Milstone, Eff Wivakeef and others. You know who you are. If you will not stop this childish nonsense, I ask you to shut up and go away. I ask Bill Beaty to ban you. I have been adding you to my personal kill file, but there seems to be so many of you lately, and you are so noisy, you are interfering with scientific discourse, and perverting the spirit of this forum. ** ** The Internet is unbounded. You can form your own discussion group. You can subscribe to this group while you post your attacks and ad hominem elsewhere. Or take it to VortexB-L. Of course we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. ** ** - Jed ** ** ** **
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
In reply to Alain Sepeda's message of Sun, 22 Jan 2012 22:03:57 +0100: Hi, [snip] for Ni+H LENR there does not seem to exist a reversible negative feedback, so like any engineer will know you have to stabilize the system with an outside control loop. You can keep it starved of fuel and let it operate at maximum positive feedback. That way all the fuel is burned as soon as it is supplied. That's essentially how an IC engine works. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
I am pretty sure Rossi's stability and control problem stems from relying on heat transfer through a large temperature differential (low Watts per degree) to cool a reaction that has a positive temperature coefficient (ie gets more powerful with increasing temperature). The simple fix is to use high temp coolants with greater Watts per degree heat transfer rates via fins or coolant tubes through the reactor etc. As an example (using numbers plucked from air) say you are using a heat transfer setup that removes 10W per degree of temperature difference with water at 100°C and Ni powder that produces 4kW at 500°C. This 400°C temperature difference results in 4kW of heat transfer. Now assume that your power output doubles to 8kW when the Ni powder temperature rises to 600°C (ie positive temperature coefficient). Unfortunates the 500°C temperature differential only increases your heat transfer rate to 5kW. Result is uncontrollable thermal runaway; E-cat go boom (or melt). Now instead if you use a coolant at 450°C and heat transfer setup that removes 80W of heat for every degree of temperature difference then with Ni temprature of 500°C you get 4kW of power and 4kW of heat transfer as before, but at 600°C you get 12kW of heat transfer from only 8kW of heat output. Result being that the reaction can no longer run away or increase above 4kW 500°C. Most engineers would quickly see this consequence from the nature of increasing power with temperature (apparent from almost all reports of gas-nanopowder LENR). I think Defaflion got it straight away with their high temp coolant, but I don't think Rossi did (or does?) as he has persisted in using low pressure water as a coolant. On 22 January 2012 20:30, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: It is strange that anyone would want an unproved and expensive device. I suspect that Rossi thinks that he can work with NI and stabilize the thing, and this may be true. My personal opinion is that some serious engineering work will be required to make the system safe and repeatable. If I were Rossi, I would be looking into a method of core cooling that is active and powerful. The core itself probably should be operating in the thermal run away mode to get the COP into an acceptable range while the cooling needs to be able to prevent additional heat energy from resulting in much higher core internal temperature. The approach used by Defkalion appears to address my issues. Their design includes a very tight thermal control of the core region by the 6 coolant paths. To startup, they would reduce the coolant flow to a minimum allowing the electrical heater to easily raise the core temperature. Once the core reaches an unstable temperature, it will begin to heat rapidly on its own. At that point the coolant flow rate can be increased to absorb the excess heat and achieve the final desired operating temperature. All of the heat energy required to keep the device operating would now be supplied by the core. The overall COP at this point is infinite in the core itself, but the control and pump energy drains would make the net COP as specified. Rossi may not understand the problems that he faces in this task. Actually, no one may really know at this point. The model I am using is quite simple, but makes sense to me. That is no proof that it is accurate however. Why would we expect Rossi to reveal to us his major problems? Most engineers assume that the problems will be defeated sooner or later and see no reason to air the dirty laundry. He has a positive outlook and has overcome many obstacles in his life and these issues appear minor in comparison. To him, the solutions most likely seem just a little way off. Dave -Original Message- From: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Jan 22, 2012 3:01 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 11:55 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.comwrote: Mary, there are serious problems with Rossi's demonstrations that we are all aware of. It is apparent to me that he has a very difficult problem trying to maintain stability of the power output and I have been doing some interesting simulation that tends to support this claim. The October 6 test data shows a clear fingerprint of LENR heat production which I hope to explain soon. All of the other models that I have seen thus far do not respond in a manner that comes even close to explaining the anomaly. These models have been based upon energy storage and release from a large mass of material inside the smaller cube. A better explanation for the curve can be obtained by assuming that a large peak of excess thermal energy is released at the end of the drive cycle due to an inherently unstable thermal run away process that is quenched just before it becomes unstoppable. If so, shouldn't Rossi be telling us
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
On 12-01-22 02:18 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: A message from Mary Yugo caught my attention before falling into the trash. Howzat work? My filters dump the folks I'm filtering before I ever see them. The important point is, my messages do not violate any of the rules set forth by Beaty: NO SNEERING. Ridicule, _*derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem is banned.*_ 'Pathological Skepticism' is banned (see the link.) . . . Jed, there has been a lot of derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem going on between you and Mary, and nearly all of it has been on */your side/*. Mary is repetitious, and can be annoying, but nearly everything she says has to do with the /evidence/. Your attacks on Mary have been equally repetitious, and nearly all of them have been ad hominems, generally to the effect that she's a pathological skeptic who would not be convinced by anything, ever. Frankly I am finding this progressively embarrassing. I'm reminded strongly of the mess with the Correas some years back, but that time you took the rational side, and it was Gene who would not be swayed from his conviction that they really had something. This time around, it's your support for Rossi (all the while protesting that you don't support him) which has gone past the blushing point. I'd go so far as to say it's even making me wonder about your earlier statements about Patterson's work, which sounded so convincing. If all I'd heard about Rossi were your comments about his work, and I had never looked at any of the actual reports, and had never noticed Rossi's obvious lies, well, Rossi would seem pretty convincing, too. In any case I've about had it, and I'm unsubscribing from the list. If Rossi actually delivers something I'd appreciate it if someone would shoot me a personal email! (But then, if he actually delivers something, he'll make it onto the cover of Time for sure, and I'll hear about it even if I'm not on Vortex.)
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
Stephen A. Lawrence sa...@pobox.com wrote: A message from Mary Yugo caught my attention before falling into the trash. Howzat work? My filters dump the folks I'm filtering before I ever see them. I don't know. I was typing and it appeared, and then vanished. Probably this is how Gmail works but not your isp's mail (pobox). Jed, there has been a lot of derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem going on between you and Mary, and nearly all of it has been on *your side*. Well, I added her to my kill file. The problem is fixed. Whether I am at fault or not, I have put an end to our exchanges. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
Some of us doubters would rather unsubscribe but since this is like Hotel California, welp.. Also, didn't know this was a religion here, worshipping at the altar of fringe science? Is this a cult or science, and where can I get off this train? Heavens Gate much?? Have a nice day. -- On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 3:15 PM CST Tom Barnett wrote: yes - the rules: Pathological Skepticism is banned if your mind is open and you wish to test crazy claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on board! For what my opinion is worth, it is quite clear from what I have been reading here that those of you who are sincere and positive about this technology might want to create another forum elsewhere (even though as you say Jed this forum was created with the above rules set down). Those who, perhaps imagining they have good intentions, but are clogging this space up with negativity, are clearly not going to leave. In fact they will probably call over their like minded vulture mates to join in until all the meat is gone. Sounds drastic, but email all those who are on board and find better pastures. Thanks for all your great work those of you who count. Tom On 22 January 2012 20:49, *** Craig Brown *** cr...@overunity.co wrote: Jed, what you have described here is EXACTLY what happened to the Steorn Forum. MaryYugo and all the moletrap clowns took over the forum and it became so abusive that the forum was closed. They are a cancer and a barrier to progress because of their own egos. ** ** These people include Mary Yugo, Axil Axil, John Milstone, Eff Wivakeef and others. You know who you are. If you will not stop this childish nonsense, I ask you to shut up and go away. I ask Bill Beaty to ban you. I have been adding you to my personal kill file, but there seems to be so many of you lately, and you are so noisy, you are interfering with scientific discourse, and perverting the spirit of this forum. ** ** The Internet is unbounded. You can form your own discussion group. You can subscribe to this group while you post your attacks and ad hominem elsewhere. Or take it to VortexB-L. Of course we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. ** ** - Jed ** ** ** **
RE: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
Tom Im all for cutting and running (somedays) but this mentality is like terrorism , if we were to run away they win and they would probably follow . ..A bit of an extreeme story but ..A lady got her legs blown off in those train bombing in London in 2004 . Two years latter there she was back on the train , prosthetic legs and all . When she was asked wasnt she scared . She replied similar to this Thats exactly what they want , so F them I think she was right . I think we have to stand up to bullys and dictators of all forms Hopefully there will be a blocking or a probation period . I think they called it at school the naughty corner worked wonders on me Pete Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2012 21:15:08 + Subject: Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group From: thjbarn...@googlemail.com To: vortex-l@eskimo.com yes - the rules:Pathological Skepticism is bannedif your mind is open and you wish to test crazy claims rather than ridiculing them or explaining them away, hop on board! For what my opinion is worth, it is quite clear from what I have been reading here that those of you who are sincere and positive about this technology might want to create another forum elsewhere (even though as you say Jed this forum was created with the above rules set down). Those who, perhaps imagining they have good intentions, but are clogging this space up with negativity, are clearly not going to leave. In fact they will probably call over their like minded vulture mates to join in until all the meat is gone. Sounds drastic, but email all those who are on board and find better pastures. Thanks for all your great work those of you who count.Tom On 22 January 2012 20:49, *** Craig Brown *** cr...@overunity.co wrote: Jed, what you have described here is EXACTLY what happened to the Steorn Forum. MaryYugo and all the moletrap clowns took over the forum and it became so abusive that the forum was closed. They are a cancer and a barrier to progress because of their own egos. These people include Mary Yugo, Axil Axil, John Milstone, Eff Wivakeef and others. You know who you are. If you will not stop this childish nonsense, I ask you to shut up and go away. I ask Bill Beaty to ban you. I have been adding you to my personal kill file, but there seems to be so many of you lately, and you are so noisy, you are interfering with scientific discourse, and perverting the spirit of this forum. The Internet is unbounded. You can form your own discussion group. You can subscribe to this group while you post your attacks and ad hominem elsewhere. Or take it to VortexB-L. Of course we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
David Robertson wrote: It is apparent to me that he has a very difficult problem trying to maintain stability of the power output and I have been doing some interesting simulation that tends to support this claim. Would you share that simulation? I can't help feeling that stability is an important point in Rossi's data - but there seems to be far too much of it rather than not enough. As far as I can see, he sets his water pumps to constant levels and claims measuring steam at the output for hours. That would mean his e-cats run for several hours without any variation in power at all. And not only that: they run with exactly the output sufficient to vaporize the amount of water he's pumping in. All that without any apparent means of control. If it really was steam, that would be very remarkable - both in terms of stability of the heat source and probably even more impressive in terms of how accurately he can predict it before he sets the pump rate. Apart from that - I thought he ended most of his demos because the time was up or people got bored or signed a contract or whatever - not because he feared a sudden runaway reaction (and after successfully hearting his office for more than 4(!) years with an e-cat, you should think that he cracked any stability problems by now anyway).
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 12:15 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote: I see you are using several other time-tested techniques. You have carefully described a test that would be difficult or impossible to meet. Joule heating or electrolysis power is necessary for most experiments. In most cases, fuel is consumed in such microscopic amounts, it would be impossible to avoid introducing thousands or millions of times more than is needed. You persist in misunderstanding me. OK, if Joule heating or electrolysis power is necessary, then measure it with a precision wide band instrument and deduct the electrical power from the output thermal power. And there is no problem with putting in fuel. Just don't keep adding anything like nickel and hydrogen during the test -- nothing which is known to have exothermic reactions with hydrogen. And run much longer than necessary at respectable excess power -- generally a watt or more is thought to be respectable. Weeks are respectable. You have been asked again and again to read the literature. You refuse. So you know nothing about it. It is absolutely inane to ask critics to read the literature. You think we have nothing better to do than to spend time with unlimited quantities of inadequate and difficult to understand papers? It's your job as proponent of this technology to choose the few papers, in any exist, maybe two or three best ones, for us to read. It should be papers that show at least a watt of CLEARLY and PROPERLY measured excess heat with no infusion of fresh fuel, running vastly longer -- orders of magnitude longer -- than a chemical reaction or stored heat could provide. THAT is what Rossi failed to do. THAT is what you have failed to point us to. And it's your job as the proponent to do the pointing. It is not our job to go rummaging through all the stuff. You have no idea how many papers describe the results you say have never been published. Anyone who has read the literature can see that you are wrong. Really? You think it's some sort of universal stupidity or pernicious viciousness that prevents the majority of nuclear scientists and physicists from believing that robust energy production has been achieved with LENR? That would be simple paranoia.
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com wrote: I am pretty sure Rossi's stability and control problem stems from relying on heat transfer through a large temperature differential (low Watts per degree) to cool a reaction that has a positive temperature coefficient (ie gets more powerful with increasing temperature). Yup. I wouldn't know, but I have heard this from various experts. People have that same problem with combustion reactors, where the temperature of the flame is much higher than the target temperature of the working fluid. The temperature of a fission reactor fuel rod is closer to the pressurized water around it. - Jed
RE: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
This is not what we are discussing. We are talking about the forum and how it was overtaken by abusive posters. Steorn's claim is not relevant to this discussion. Quoting Wikipedia is of no value when it comes to exotic energy claims simply because of their establishment bias and the bias of the Wikipedia "editors". Original Message Subject: Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group From: John Milstone john_sw_orla...@yahoo.com Date: Mon, January 23, 2012 6:56 am To: "vortex-l@eskimo.com" vortex-l@eskimo.com You mean the Steorn that hand-picked a jury of scientists to test their technology, which then unanimously determined that Steorn failed to show any signs of excess energy?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steorn#Jury_process From: *** Craig Brown *** cr...@overunity.co To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 3:49 PM Subject: RE: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own groupJed, what you have described here is EXACTLY what happened to the Steorn Forum. MaryYugo and all the moletrap clowns took over the forum and it became so abusive that the forum was closed. They are a cancer and a barrier to progress because of their own egos. These peopleinclude Mary Yugo,Axil Axil,John Milstone,Eff Wivakeef and others. You know who you are. If you will not stop this childish nonsense, I ask you to shut up and go away. I ask Bill Beaty to ban you. I have been adding you to my personal kill file, but there seems to be so many of you lately, and you are so noisy, you are interfering with scientific discourse, and perverting the spirit of this forum. The Internet is unbounded. You can form your own discussion group. You can subscribe to this group while you post your attacks and ad hominem elsewhere. Or take it to VortexB-L.Of course we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
I believe that the danger in operating the device in maximum feedback is that the nickel will melt and that will end the power generation permanently. It most likely will require an operation temperature that is controlled and set to the proper level for the desired heat output power. Dave -Original Message- From: mixent mix...@bigpond.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Jan 22, 2012 4:18 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group In reply to Alain Sepeda's message of Sun, 22 Jan 2012 22:03:57 +0100: i, snip] for Ni+H LENR there does not seem to exist a reversible negative feedback, so like any engineer will know you have to stabilize the system with an outside control loop. You can keep it starved of fuel and let it operate at maximum positive feedback. hat way all the fuel is burned as soon as it is supplied. That's essentially ow an IC engine works. Regards, Robin van Spaandonk http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
You have shown an excellent example of the problem and Defkalion's solution. The model that I am working on suggests that it is the slope of the Power Output versus Temperature curve of the core device multiplied by the thermal resistance that defines stability. I have modeled many different power functions with a simple spice model and they always go unstable when the product of these functions is greater than or equal to 1. Also, the incremental gain of the system follows the normal feedback relationship of: gain=1/(1+af). Here af is the product of dP/dT and R(thermal impedance). With a linear Power Output versus Temperature curve, you can achieve any desired COP by adjusting the thermal resistance of the core path. A gain of 6 can be set with ease. Nonlinear functions, such as third order relations, are very unstable due to the rapid change in slope versus temperature. My model suggests that there is little hope of significant controlled gain with these functions without being able to drain heat away from the core rapidly. In all of the non linear cases I have modeled, the (power output)/(power input) is barely above 2 in the best design. Of course I refer to the situation where the linear term is much smaller than the high order term. An exponential curve as in P(T) =a* EXP(b*T) allowed the excess power to be about 40% above the drive before instability occurred. Dave -Original Message- From: Robert Lynn robert.gulliver.l...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Jan 22, 2012 4:21 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group I am pretty sure Rossi's stability and control problem stems from relying on heat transfer through a large temperature differential (low Watts per degree) to cool a reaction that has a positive temperature coefficient (ie gets more powerful with increasing temperature). The simple fix is to use high temp coolants with greater Watts per degree heat transfer rates via fins or coolant tubes through the reactor etc. As an example (using numbers plucked from air) say you are using a heat transfer setup that removes 10W per degree of temperature difference with water at 100°C and Ni powder that produces 4kW at 500°C. This 400°C temperature difference results in 4kW of heat transfer. Now assume that your power output doubles to 8kW when the Ni powder temperature rises to 600°C (ie positive temperature coefficient). Unfortunates the 500°C temperature differential only increases your heat transfer rate to 5kW. Result is uncontrollable thermal runaway; E-cat go boom (or melt). Now instead if you use a coolant at 450°C and heat transfer setup that removes 80W of heat for every degree of temperature difference then with Ni temprature of 500°C you get 4kW of power and 4kW of heat transfer as before, but at 600°C you get 12kW of heat transfer from only 8kW of heat output. Result being that the reaction can no longer run away or increase above 4kW 500°C. Most engineers would quickly see this consequence from the nature of increasing power with temperature (apparent from almost all reports of gas-nanopowder LENR). I think Defaflion got it straight away with their high temp coolant, but I don't think Rossi did (or does?) as he has persisted in using low pressure water as a coolant. On 22 January 2012 20:30, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: It is strange that anyone would want an unproved and expensive device. I suspect that Rossi thinks that he can work with NI and stabilize the thing, and this may be true. My personal opinion is that some serious engineering work will be required to make the system safe and repeatable. If I were Rossi, I would be looking into a method of core cooling that is active and powerful. The core itself probably should be operating in the thermal run away mode to get the COP into an acceptable range while the cooling needs to be able to prevent additional heat energy from resulting in much higher core internal temperature. The approach used by Defkalion appears to address my issues. Their design includes a very tight thermal control of the core region by the 6 coolant paths. To startup, they would reduce the coolant flow to a minimum allowing the electrical heater to easily raise the core temperature. Once the core reaches an unstable temperature, it will begin to heat rapidly on its own. At that point the coolant flow rate can be increased to absorb the excess heat and achieve the final desired operating temperature. All of the heat energy required to keep the device operating would now be supplied by the core. The overall COP at this point is infinite in the core itself, but the control and pump energy drains would make the net COP as specified. Rossi may not understand the problems that he faces in this task. Actually, no one may really know at this point. The model I am using is quite simple
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
On 23/01/2012 4:46 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: These people include Mary Yugo, Axil Axil, John Milstone, Eff Wivakeef and others. You know who you are. If you will not stop this childish nonsense, I ask you to shut up and go away. I ask Bill Beaty to ban you. I have been adding you to my personal kill file, but there seems to be so many of you lately, and you are so noisy, you are interfering with scientific discourse, and perverting the spirit of this forum. The Internet is unbounded. You can form your own discussion group. You can subscribe to this group while you post your attacks and ad hominem elsewhere. Or take it to VortexB-L. Of course we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. - Jed Oh so now Vortex is only a PRO Rossi discussion group? What are you hiding Jed? Do you know about other Rossi lies that have not come out? Are you trying to stop this discussion because the fire is getting too hot for you and you don't want to be burnt? Playing with matches or hiding Rossi lies is a good way to be burnt. Just like Lewans, Focardi and Levi have been burnt. Concerned you may be joining that group? Shaun
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
On 23/01/2012 6:31 AM, Mary Yugo wrote: On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 11:55 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com mailto:dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Mary, there are serious problems with Rossi's demonstrations that we are all aware of. It is apparent to me that he has a very difficult problem trying to maintain stability of the power output and I have been doing some interesting simulation that tends to support this claim. The October 6 test data shows a clear fingerprint of LENR heat production which I hope to explain soon. All of the other models that I have seen thus far do not respond in a manner that comes even close to explaining the anomaly. These models have been based upon energy storage and release from a large mass of material inside the smaller cube. A better explanation for the curve can be obtained by assuming that a large peak of excess thermal energy is released at the end of the drive cycle due to an inherently unstable thermal run away process that is quenched just before it becomes unstoppable. If so, shouldn't Rossi be telling us that? Do you think he told his anonymous customer who supposedly bought **13** power plants consisting of some 600+ individual modular units? Do you believe there is such a customer? Is someone really that dense? What would 13 such things possibly be used for? As is becoming clearer every day, Rossi is a PROVEN serial liar and fraudster. He has no respect for truth in business nor for the truth of his Ecat claims. I have shown how he arranged to created a higher than reality Tout measurement for the 6 Oct test. This was not a mistake. It was intentional fraud by a man who has no respect for the truth nor for the reputations of those around him. Shaun
RE: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
I think you are misreading the situation. The problem here is the accusatory and pathalogical scepticism displayed by posters such as yourself which is based on attacking the character of anyone and everyone who is keeping an open mind regarding Rossi's claims. Original Message Subject: Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group From: Shaun Taylor shauntaylor...@gmail.com Date: Mon, January 23, 2012 9:31 am To: vortex-l@eskimo.com On 23/01/2012 4:46 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote: These people include Mary Yugo, Axil Axil, John Milstone, Eff Wivakeef and others. You know who you are. If you will not stop this childish nonsense, I ask you to shut up and go away. I ask Bill Beaty to ban you. I have been adding you to my personal kill file, but there seems to be so many of you lately, and you are so noisy, you are interfering with scientific discourse, and perverting the spirit of this forum. The Internet is unbounded. You can form your own discussion group. You can subscribe to this group while you post your attacks and ad hominem elsewhere. Or take it to VortexB-L. Of course we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. - Jed Oh so now Vortex is only a PRO Rossi discussion group? What are you hiding Jed? Do you know about other Rossi lies that have not come out? Are you trying to stop this discussion because the fire is getting too hot for you and you don't want to be burnt? Playing with matches or hiding Rossi lies is a good way to be burnt. Just like Lewans, Focardi and Levi have been burnt. Concerned you may be joining that group? Shaun
RE: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
A lot more transparancy would negate the need for 'open' minds. Sadly, Rossi = Fail. Any University would be happy to test his device under an NDA and blackbox.. How you gonna change the world without coming out into the light? He could have protected his IP and changed the world, but alas chooses to hide behind smoke screens. Why? Because he has something to hide. Now excuse me while go brush my teeth. (Just threw up in my mouth a little). Craig Brown cr...@overunity.co wrote:
RE: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
I'm all for transparency and god knows Rossi needs to sort out his translations for the avoidance of doubt. But transparency works BOTH ways. You can't have transparency on ONE side only! Pathological sceptics are rarely transparent and usually have their own agenda. So sitting there demanding transparency from Rossi while they languish in the safety of anonymity while firing accusations and character assasinations themselves is hypocritical and makes a mockery. It's double standards - pure and simple. Original Message Subject: RE: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group From: Dusty d_bra...@bellsouth.net Date: Mon, January 23, 2012 10:27 am To: vortex-l@eskimo.com A lot more transparancy would negate the need for 'open' minds. Sadly, Rossi = Fail. Any University would be happy to test his device under an NDA and blackbox.. How you gonna change the world without coming out into the light? He could have protected his IP and changed the world, but alas chooses to hide behind smoke screens. Why? Because he has something to hide. Now excuse me while go brush my teeth. (Just threw up in my mouth a little). Craig Brown cr...@overunity.co wrote:
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
On 23/01/2012 10:46 AM, Craig Brown wrote: I think you are misreading the situation. The problem here is the accusatory and pathalogical scepticism displayed by posters such as yourself which is based on attacking the character of anyone and everyone who is keeping an open mind regarding Rossi's claims. I attack based on the evidence of lies and data fraud. If those attacks lead back to Rossi, then so be it.
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 2:29 PM, Craig Brown cr...@overunity.co wrote: This is not what we are discussing. We are talking about the forum and how it was overtaken by abusive posters. Steorn's claim is not relevant to this discussion. Quoting Wikipedia is of no value when it comes to exotic energy claims simply because of their establishment bias and the bias of the Wikipedia editors. The Steorn forum was not taken over by anyone. In fact, it was ruthlessly moderated by two old biddies who knew nothing about science and the scientific method. They tended delete posts and entire threads at will and often without explanation and to ban anyone who raised the obvious issue that Steorn was (and still is) an obvious investor scam. Eventually, Steorn did a totally worthless and contrived demo, much more blatant even than anything Rossi ever did, at the Waterways Museum. When good questions were asked, video'd and put on Youtube, Steorn had them removed because Steorn's (Sean's) own responses were moronic. When Steorn claimed they did calorimetry, they wouldn't say who did or where it was done. They didn't show calorimetry results but instead they put up a couple of unlabelled and unattributed temperature vs time curves. When called on that and all of their continued and consistent failures and unfulfilled promises, they simply closed the forum and permanently ERASED the entire forum site and all messages. So much for Steorn. If we are going to discuss what they did, then let's get it correct. The reason some posters ridiculed Steorn on their own forum is the same reason people ridicule and ask difficult questions of Defkalion on their forum. They claim they have an open forum and what they post on it is absurd and worthy of nothing *but* ridicule. Steorn's claims and methods are very similar in style to Rossi's and Defkalion. Even their sarcasm is reflected in Defkalion's responses. And their tangentiality and non-responses in the guise of responses is typical of what Rossi does on his blog when he's not simply refusing to publish perfectly legitimate questions. If you like Rossi and Defkalion, you must have loved Steorn!
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 4:16 PM, Craig Brown cr...@overunity.co wrote: I think you are misreading the situation. The problem here is the accusatory and pathalogical scepticism displayed by posters such as yourself which is based on attacking the character of anyone and everyone who is keeping an open mind regarding Rossi's claims. Not at all. The skeptics have no influence on results. Rossi has repeatedly refused to use the methods which could actually show whether the E-cat works or not. He refused all independent tests and repeatedly lied about working with the Universities of Bologna and Uppsala who both say they have done no work for Rossi and have never tested an E-cat. Those are the facts. Accusatory and pathalogical [sic] scepticism is your invention and that of people like Sterling Allan who link to sites saying Obama went to Mars. I suppose critics of that are pathalogical also?
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
At 02:46 PM 1/22/2012, Eff Wivakeef wrote: Look at all the attention and acclaim given to Rossi and for what? To keep the scam going and ripoff more victims. Simple really. Why would anyone choose to believe the word of Rossi the convicted fraudster? Weird or what? I don't believe Rossi, but I do believe that Eff Vivakeef is acting beyond the pale for Vortex. Convicted fraudster is libel. This is entirely outside the purpose of the Vortex list, as Jed has pointed out. Interdicting attempts to sell people investment opportunities here, fine. Bringing us specific knowledge, as Keef did, great. But polemic, trolling for outraged response, no. Supporters of Rossi are welcome here, and so is criticism of Rossi, within the bounds of inquiry and shared investigation. I'm not seeing any victims of Rossi show up. Know of any? Facts welcome. Libelous polemic, not.
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
Shaun Taylor shauntaylor...@gmail.com wrote: Of course we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. - Jed Oh so now Vortex is only a PRO Rossi discussion group? No, it is pro-science. Please re-read what I said: we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. But, no sneering, ridicule, derision, scoffing, and ad-hominem or Pathological Skepticism. The standard here is similar to that of a scientific conference or a university classroom. If someone came into a conference and started throwing around unfounded accusations of fraud, or using obscenities excessively, he or she would be asked to leave. This has nothing to do free speech and nothing to do with your views of cold fusion or Rossi. This is about how an adult behaves in polite society. If you do not wish to conform to the rules of polite society and academic decorum, you should go away. This forum has survived for a long time because we abide by traditional academic rules. That calls for a measure of polite hypocrisy to smooth things over. These rules are unfashionable on the Internet, which is dominated by egotistical young men who think they know it all. Playing with matches or hiding Rossi lies is a good way to be burnt. Just like Lewans, Focardi and Levi have been burnt. They have not been burnt to my knowledge. They know a lot more about this situation than you do. I suggest you tone down the rhetoric, learn more, and be a little more skeptical of your own ideas. A little humility would become you. You might be mistaken, after all. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.comwrote: I don't believe Rossi, but I do believe that Eff Vivakeef is acting beyond the pale for Vortex. Convicted fraudster is libel. I don't think that's libel. It may not be the whole story but you can find in several reports from mainline newspapers that Rossi was indeed convicted of fraud and sentenced to 8 years in jail. Like so many things Rossi, I can't find any discussion of any credible nature about how long he actually served in jail if any and where and when. Maybe someone can find that. Rossi was also charged with money laundering and gold smuggling in addition to the Petroldragon Affair. There was a long list of charges, some leading to convictions, some of which were repealed on appeal or on technicalities IIRC but Mr. Rossi was indeed convicted of at least one felony for fraud at least one time-- probably more. I'm not seeing any victims of Rossi show up. Know of any? Somebody had to clean up hundreds or thousands of tons of what amounted to sewage and environmental toxins due to Rossi. It was described in the press as a major environmental catastrophe -- all due to Rossi. The DOD lost a lot of money in the TE debacle due to Rossi. None of those folks are likely to complain here. As to victims of his current caper if it's fraud? That will take a lot of time. Steorn's victims are obvious (the investors) but have not filed complaints anyone knows of to this day, about 6 years after the start. Maybe they signed clever and misleading disclaimers and decided the court battle is not worth the trouble. They were clearly defrauded though -- by public record, Steorn spent 21 million Euros in about four years. By the same records, they have made nothing which has ever been independently found to work or sold for profit to anyone anywhere ever. There were a few independent tests by fan-people and they were uniformly non supportive of the slightest claim to the so-called technology. Facts welcome. Libelous polemic, not. Calling Rossi a convicted felon is not libelous-- it seems to be fact.
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 6:17 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Shaun Taylor shauntaylor...@gmail.com wrote: Of course we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. - Jed Oh so now Vortex is only a PRO Rossi discussion group? No, it is pro-science. Your claims of anonymous people seeing undescribed demonstrations at unknown locations and of unknown result which however are said to be supportive of Rossi's truthfulness are science?
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
On 23/01/2012 12:47 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote: Shaun Taylor shauntaylor...@gmail.com mailto:shauntaylor...@gmail.com wrote: Of course we welcome your contributions to the technical discussion here. - Jed Oh so now Vortex is only a PRO Rossi discussion group? No, it is pro-science. Ok Jed but play by your own rules. Stop making statement about secret testing that you can't reveal. Either reveal the data or stop with the statements is exists. If you can't post it, then it does NOT exist as it can't be checked. My call would be the data will not stand up to being Vortex peer reviewed, so you keep it secret. Rossi has been caught lying. He has been caught fabricating data. He has burnt many strong supporters. LENR is real, I do accept that. I do also respect the long hours you have put into the www.lenr-canr.org web site, keeping the flame alive. You must realize Rossi will tear down all you have built. He has no concern for anybody but Rossi. You are expendable as was Lewans, Focardi and Levi when they turned away from exposing Rossi's lies. Wake up Jed, supporting Rossi's and his fake LENR god like Ecat will burn you, just like it has burnt many others. Shaun
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
Shaun Taylor shauntaylor...@gmail.com wrote: No, it is pro-science. Ok Jed but play by your own rules. Stop making statement about secret testing that you can't reveal. That is not against the rules here, or at a scientific conference for that matter. Either reveal the data or stop with the statements is exists. If you can't post it, then it does NOT exist as it can't be checked. Okay, the data does not exist. Feel free to ignore it. Add my name to your auto-delete list if you like. Since you are the only one here complaining about this, I shall ignore your wishes. You must realize Rossi will tear down all you have built. Bull. The worst that can happen is that he is wrong. LOTS of cold fusion experiments have been wrong. Heck, I've *paid for* lots of wrong experiments. It is nothing to fret about. Wake up Jed, supporting Rossi's and his fake LENR god like Ecat will burn you, just like it has burnt many others. It has not burnt anyone so far, despite Rossi's quirks and the best efforts of rumor mongers such as Yugo and you. I appreciate your concern for my reputation, but I can take of myself. I am confident that most people who read what I have written Rossi will not say I have been a patsy or unequivocally open to his claims. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 7:02 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Shaun Taylor shauntaylor...@gmail.com wrote: No, it is pro-science. Ok Jed but play by your own rules. Stop making statement about secret testing that you can't reveal. That is not against the rules here, or at a scientific conference for that matter. No but it fails to improve either your or Rossi's credibility. Also it's not technology OR science and thus, according to you, inappropriate here. Either reveal the data or stop with the statements is exists. If you can't post it, then it does NOT exist as it can't be checked. Okay, the data does not exist. Feel free to ignore it. Add my name to your auto-delete list if you like. Since you are the only one here complaining about this Many people here object to it. They may not bother to complain to you, especially since you tend to screen out any emails from people you disagree with. You must realize Rossi will tear down all you have built. Bull. The worst that can happen is that he is wrong. LOTS of cold fusion experiments have been wrong. Heck, I've *paid for* lots of wrong experiments. It is nothing to fret about. What is going to happen is that the next time you cry Wolf! nobody will believe you. Wake up Jed, supporting Rossi's and his fake LENR god like Ecat will burn you, just like it has burnt many others. It has not burnt anyone so far, despite Rossi's quirks and the best efforts of rumor mongers such as Yugo and you. Thanks for calling me names. I'm sure it's in the spirit of Vortex, as interpreted by Jed.
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 2:08 PM, Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com wrote: It is absolutely inane to ask critics to read the literature. You think we have nothing better to do than to spend time with unlimited quantities of inadequate and difficult to understand papers? It's your job as proponent of this technology to choose the few papers, in any exist, maybe two or three best ones, for us to read. It should be papers that show at least a watt of CLEARLY and PROPERLY measured excess heat with no infusion of fresh fuel, running vastly longer -- orders of magnitude longer -- than a chemical reaction or stored heat could provide. THAT is what Rossi failed to do. THAT is what you have failed to point us to. And it's your job as the proponent to do the pointing. It is not our job to go rummaging through all the stuff. I don't think it's inane to ask people to read the literature. The whole LENR discussion is largely one about points that are raised in the LENR literature; or, ideally, it should be. Physicists working in string theory would rightfully expect interlocutors to be familiar with the literature in that area. We can have our doubts about the whole subfield, but if we're to engage it, I think they can reasonably ask us to do the difficult groundwork. Science is rarely something to be neatly packaged up and handed to people in a nice, pre-digested form. There are difficult papers, subtle details, fads, cranks, and so on. I think few would argue that there's an obligation to make things easy for newcomers, although this is obviously something that is nice to do. It's undoubtedly true that it would be easier to satisfy fierce critics of LENR in mainstream physics by doing some of the things you describe, but it seems to me that the whole conversation moved beyond that point about 15 years ago. Mainstream physicists couldn't be be persuaded to drop expectations about such things as fast neutrons before they would even grant consideration of an experiment, and the LENR people gave up and simply moved on. There doesn't seem to be a lot of desire to win fierce critics in mainstream physics over to LENR as far as I can tell. And although their input would no doubt be very useful, I would wager that the field can make progress without them. For these reasons I find it unlikely that you will get the nicely bundled package that you're looking for. In the absence of such a thing, it doesn't seem like there's much to be done apart from becoming familiar with the literature, at least so far as one's training permits. At a minimum, there are several books that give a summary of the field -- not sure if you've had a chance to any read them, but they're worth the time, I think.
RE: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
In 5 years of listening to you ENDLESSLY complain about investors being ripped off and people being scammed you have been unable to point to even ONE single instance of someone who has made a complaint. You talk of victims like they are everywhere when in reality you can't point to one single investor in Rossi or Steorn who agrees with what you say.The reality is that many companies take investment money that doesn't yield a return. This is not confined simply to the world of new energy technologies. Original Message Subject: Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group From: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com Date: Mon, January 23, 2012 12:22 pm To: vortex-l@eskimo.com On Sun, Jan 22, 2012 at 6:02 PM, Abd ul-Rahman Lomax a...@lomaxdesign.com wrote: I don't believe Rossi, but I do believe that Eff Vivakeef is acting beyond the pale for Vortex. "Convicted fraudster" is libel. I don't think that's libel. It may not be the whole story but you can find in several reports from mainline newspapers that Rossi was indeed convicted of fraud and sentenced to 8 years in jail. Like so many things Rossi, I can't find any discussion of any credible nature about how long he actually served in jail if any and where and when. Maybe someone can find that. Rossi was also charged with money laundering and gold smuggling in addition to the Petroldragon Affair. There was a long list of charges, some leading to convictions, some of which were repealed on appeal or on technicalities IIRC but Mr. Rossi was indeed convicted of at least one felony for fraud at least one time-- probably more. I'm not seeing any victims of Rossi show up. Know of any?Somebody had to clean up hundreds or thousands of tons of what amounted to sewage and environmental toxins due to Rossi. It was described in the press as a major environmental catastrophe -- all due to Rossi. The DOD lost a lot of money in the TE debacle due to Rossi. None of those folks are likely to complain here. As to victims of his current caper if it's fraud? That will take a lot of time. Steorn's victims are obvious (the investors) but have not filed complaints anyone knows of to this day, about 6 years after the start. Maybe they signed clever and misleading disclaimers and decided the court battle is not worth the trouble. They were clearly defrauded though -- by public record, Steorn spent 21 million Euros in about four years. By the same records, they have made nothing which has ever been independently found to work or sold for profit to anyone anywhere ever. There were a few independent tests by fan-people and they were uniformly non supportive of the slightest claim to the so-called "technology". Facts welcome. Libelous polemic, not. Calling Rossi a convicted felon is not libelous-- it seems to be fact.
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
On 23/01/2012 2:16 PM, Craig Brown wrote: In 5 years of listening to you ENDLESSLY complain about investors being ripped off and people being scammed you have been unable to point to even ONE single instance of someone who has made a complaint. You talk of victims like they are everywhere when in reality you can't point to one single investor in Rossi or Steorn who agrees with what you say. The reality is that many companies take investment money that doesn't yield a return. This is not confined simply to the world of new energy technologies. Apparently Rossi America's licensee Ampenergo is no longer in existence. Rossi is a proven liar that creates false data the make the Ecat look outstanding when in actuality there is not one bit of independent testing to verify his claims. Apparently he doesn't care about the truth in business or in testing or why do you think he would be honest with investors. Ok he may do all this and his supporters may turn a blind eye to his lies and false data because Rossi and his Fanboys believe success is just a tweak away, away, away, away. Then when they get it finally working as claimed, the world will forgive them their trespasses. Expect the Ecat temple of cards Rossi has built is falling apart at an accelerating rate. Show me one solid independent Ecat test, everything independent and I'll be there with my shovel, trowel, sand, cement and bricks to repair the Ecat temple as good as new. Shaun
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
On 1/22/12, Craig Brown cr...@overunity.co wrote: In 5 years of listening to you ENDLESSLY complain about investors being ripped off and people being scammed you have been unable to point to even ONE single instance of someone who has made a complaint. You talk of victims like they are everywhere when in reality you can't point to one single investor in Rossi or Steorn who agrees with what you say. Actually, if you follow even Sterling Allan's enthusiast web site, you see people complaining of ripoffs all the time. Apparently even the ever critical Jed Rothwell lost $100 to an Aussie type of guy. And 21 million Euros went to Steorn which produced grandiose claims (need I remind you of always works all the time, 0.5 W/cc power density, African pumps, 550HP motors, self charging Orbos', Orbos in cell phones, university tests, etc. etc. etc.?) and nothing else-- no product, no sales and no independent tests except the few that failed dismally. Bedini sells magnetic motors that are supposed to be free energy but always require batteries. Dennis Lee and Jeff Otto were busted for felonies regarding their HHO scheme, Carl Tiley is a fugitive under indictment in Tenessee and you were thoroughly bamboozled by all of them at the time including something as silly as Mylow's joke. It's a bit early for Rossi's investors to complain. Give them a bit of time. The reality is that many companies take investment money that doesn't yield a return. This is not confined simply to the world of new energy technologies. The reality is that NO investment in any free energy claim has ever yielded a return-- it absolutely NEVER has and yet everytime a new one comes out, people like you and Sterling Allan push them on your web sites despite a complete absence of proper testing. With friends like you and Allan, Rossi needs no enemies.
RE: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
So basically you STILL can't point to a single complaint from a Steorn or Rossi investor. I rest my case. Original Message Subject: Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group From: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com Date: Mon, January 23, 2012 2:56 pm To: vortex-l@eskimo.com On 1/22/12, Craig Brown cr...@overunity.co wrote: In 5 years of listening to you ENDLESSLY complain about investors being ripped off and people being scammed you have been unable to point to even ONE single instance of someone who has made a complaint. You talk of victims like they are everywhere when in reality you can't point to one single investor in Rossi or Steorn who agrees with what you say. Actually, if you follow even Sterling Allan's enthusiast web site, you see people complaining of ripoffs all the time. Apparently even the ever critical Jed Rothwell lost $100 to an Aussie type of guy. And 21 million Euros went to Steorn which produced grandiose claims (need I remind you of always works all the time, 0.5 W/cc power density, African pumps, 550HP motors, self charging Orbos', Orbos in cell phones, university tests, etc. etc. etc.?) and nothing else-- no product, no sales and no independent tests except the few that failed dismally. Bedini sells magnetic motors that are supposed to be free energy but always require batteries. Dennis Lee and Jeff Otto were busted for felonies regarding their HHO scheme, Carl Tiley is a fugitive under indictment in Tenessee and you were thoroughly bamboozled by all of them at the time including something as silly as Mylow's joke. It's a bit early for Rossi's investors to complain. Give them a bit of time. The reality is that many companies take investment money that doesn't yield a return. This is not confined simply to the world of new energy technologies. The reality is that NO investment in any free energy claim has ever yielded a return-- it absolutely NEVER has and yet everytime a new one comes out, people like you and Sterling Allan push them on your web sites despite a complete absence of proper testing. With friends like you and Allan, Rossi needs no enemies.
Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
On 1/22/12, Craig Brown cr...@overunity.co wrote: So basically you STILL can't point to a single complaint from a Steorn or Rossi investor. I rest my case. I don't claim to be able to point to complaints about Steorn or Rossi. Steorn's investors long ago wrote off the losses and their contract with Steorn probably prevents them from suing even for lies and failures-- it's still a scam. The final verdict (remember the Steorn jury and what they said?) is still not in on Rossi and it's way too early to expect investor suits or complaints. You have no case. You have a straw man argument.
RE: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group
When it comes to Rossi and the E-Cat, of course they can’t Craig… and that’s a *fact* that they are choosing to ignore. Gee, sounds a bit pathological to me… Now, *IF* a plaintiff does come forward sometime in the future, then we may have real evidence of wrongdoing, depending on the circumstances in the complaint. -m From: Craig Brown [mailto:cr...@overunity.co] Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 9:00 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: RE: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group So basically you STILL can't point to a single complaint from a Steorn or Rossi investor. I rest my case. Original Message Subject: Re: [Vo]:Opponents should please go away and form your own group From: Mary Yugo maryyu...@gmail.com Date: Mon, January 23, 2012 2:56 pm To: vortex-l@eskimo.com On 1/22/12, Craig Brown cr...@overunity.co wrote: In 5 years of listening to you ENDLESSLY complain about investors being ripped off and people being scammed you have been unable to point to even ONE single instance of someone who has made a complaint. You talk of victims like they are everywhere when in reality you can't point to one single investor in Rossi or Steorn who agrees with what you say. Actually, if you follow even Sterling Allan's enthusiast web site, you see people complaining of ripoffs all the time. Apparently even the ever critical Jed Rothwell lost $100 to an Aussie type of guy. And 21 million Euros went to Steorn which produced grandiose claims (need I remind you of always works all the time, 0.5 W/cc power density, African pumps, 550HP motors, self charging Orbos', Orbos in cell phones, university tests, etc. etc. etc.?) and nothing else-- no product, no sales and no independent tests except the few that failed dismally. Bedini sells magnetic motors that are supposed to be free energy but always require batteries. Dennis Lee and Jeff Otto were busted for felonies regarding their HHO scheme, Carl Tiley is a fugitive under indictment in Tenessee and you were thoroughly bamboozled by all of them at the time including something as silly as Mylow's joke. It's a bit early for Rossi's investors to complain. Give them a bit of time. The reality is that many companies take investment money that doesn't yield a return. This is not confined simply to the world of new energy technologies. The reality is that NO investment in any free energy claim has ever yielded a return-- it absolutely NEVER has and yet everytime a new one comes out, people like you and Sterling Allan push them on your web sites despite a complete absence of proper testing. With friends like you and Allan, Rossi needs no enemies.
