subject:"\[AFMUG\] OT \- Captilism $was Martin Shkreli$"

Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and demand?  I'd agree
on the whole hotel thing - you don't have to stay there - but when you have
some medical condition (and while yes AIDS is something you can certainly
avoid) I think as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a basic human
right.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman 
wrote:

> I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that pure capitalism is
> the best way demonstrated to date to innovate and health care or pharma is
> not exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These
> pharma companies have something like 7 years until the exclusivity period
> expires. That can be a pretty short time to recover investments. This
> particular case may be a bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken
> in America is simply ludicrous.
>
> I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on a Friday.
> Thursday night at the hotel was $159 and Friday was $269. I don't think
> that is price gouging. I think it is a reflection of the simple fact that
> there are fewer rooms available on that particular night than are demanded
> at $159. The equilibrium was found at $259 where supply and demand come
> closer to being equal. At that price I still witnessed people turned away
> wanting a room due to their poor planning. I don't think that is price
> gouging. Their hotel was full at $269 a night. The next day was $159 again.
> Since the hotel was full they probably could have been even higher.
>
> I really don't understand what people have such a huge issue with the
> fundamental theory of supply and demand. Yes I understand that it is a
> potentially life saving drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe
> they aren't as good, which is why they are cheaper. When did we stop
> rewarding people for the value they provide? I know this jerk didn't invent
> it but he obviously was willing to reward those who did with a price they
> thought fair. Sales over the next few years will prove if he made a mistake.
>
> Why not force Chuck to sell a unique mount he made for 5% over cost? Heck,
> why not only cover his cost? Why not less than cost and force him to
> provide his great product for the good of the people? There is a reason it
> is named Animal Farm. How many have read this book? While not about
> capitalism it does speak to the kind of central control that skulks below
> the overt argument for "controlling" this type of behavior.
>
> I know people might die. I'll put on my really jerky hat and say "so
> what?". People die every day for less meaning and in greater numbers. There
> is practically a mass suicide movement going on now with texting and
> driving. I don't see where people value there lives or others that much
> anyway when reading a text or email is more important than life itself.
> I guess I am just a big libertarian at heart. Give me the loose framework
> of a "fair market", whatever that is, and let the system fight it out. The
> word isn't fair, not ever going to be fair, stop trying to warp it to be
> that way.
>
> Have fun with that on a Friday and have a Merry Christmas, Happy Hanuka,
> or whatever else gets your boat floating.
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:02 AM Patrick Leary 
> wrote:
>
>> The irony? Your local poor schlub a-hole can be arrested and charged if
>> he doubles the price of gas, water, or other life-critical goods after a
>> natural disaster – that’s a crime in America. Meanwhile, it’s completely
>> legal for a company to raise a life-critical drug by over 5000% -- that’s
>> capitalism in America.
>>
>>
>>
>> Shkreli is only the most written about example. This “business trend’ is
>> all the rage and has been widely employed in the U.S. for a number of years
>> now.
>> http://news.health.com/2015/09/25/6-insane-examples-of-prescription-drug-price-increases/
>>
>>
>>
>> Patrick
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Ken Hohhof
>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 17, 2015 8:28 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] OT - Martin Shkreli
>>
>>
>>
>> Apparently this guy AND HIS LAWYER were arrested today.  Everybody knows
>> him as the guy who raises drug prices 5000%, but I did not know he live
>> streams almost daily to his fans.
>>
>>
>>
>> Watch the first video, isn't he just like every annoying, entitled,
>> slacker kid living in his parents basement that we have to deal with
>> bitching about his Internet?  Except he is CEO of a drug company.
>>
>>
>>
>> I didn't think it was possible to hate him more, but watch the video.
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8gjB1PSXv_oAUSAQ16S0fA
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by
>> PineApp Mail-SeCure for

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

Damn you guys are brutal!


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Ken Hohhof <af...@kwisp.com> wrote:

> Bah, humbug.
>
> -Original Message- From: Christopher Tyler
> Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:28 AM
> To: af@afmug.com
>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)
>
> And a free cell phone so they can call the pharmacy.
>
> --
> Christopher Tyler
> MTCRE/MTCNA/MTCTCE/MTCWE
> Total Highspeed Internet Services
> 417.851.1107
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jay Weekley" <par...@cyberbroadband.net>
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:27:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)
>
> They need clothing and transportation to food, water, shelter and
> medicine.  Or free delivery.
>
> Josh Luthman wrote:
>
>> Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone need
>> to survive.
>>
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum <cc...@wispmon.com
>> <mailto:cc...@wispmon.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop?
>> Why are others forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than
>> congenital defects, and some accidents, most health problems are
>> due to peoples choices. If our money is to be confiscated to pay
>> for everyone's "human right", don't we get a say in how they live?
>> How many other human rights are being trampled on then?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman
>> <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com <mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and
>> demand?  I'd agree on the whole hotel thing - you don't have
>> to stay there - but when you have some medical condition (and
>> while yes AIDS is something you can certainly avoid) I think
>> as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a basic human right.
>>
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340 
>> Direct: 937-552-2343 
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman
>> <lewis.berg...@gmail.com <mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that
>> pure capitalism is the best way demonstrated to date to
>> innovate and health care or pharma is not exempt. Big
>> rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These
>> pharma companies have something like 7 years until the
>> exclusivity period expires. That can be a pretty short
>> time to recover investments. This particular case may be a
>> bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken in
>> America is simply ludicrous.
>>
>> I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on
>> a Friday. Thursday night at the hotel was $159 and Friday
>> was $269. I don't think that is price gouging. I think it
>> is a reflection of the simple fact that there are fewer
>> rooms available on that particular night than are demanded
>> at $159. The equilibrium was found at $259 where supply
>> and demand come closer to being equal. At that price I
>> still witnessed people turned away wanting a room due to
>> their poor planning. I don't think that is price gouging.
>> Their hotel was full at $269 a night. The next day was
>> $159 again. Since the hotel was full they probably could
>> have been even higher.
>>
>> I really don't understand what people have such a huge
>> issue with the fundamental theory of supply and demand.
>> Yes I understand that it is a potentially life saving
>> drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe they
>> aren't as good, which is why they are cheaper. When did we
>> stop rewarding people for the value they provide? I know
>> this jerk didn't invent it but he obviously was

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

2015-12-18 Thread Eric Muehleisen

And free internet to look up the pharmacy phone number.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:28 AM, Christopher Tyler
<ch...@totalhighspeed.net> wrote:
> And a free cell phone so they can call the pharmacy.
>
> --
> Christopher Tyler
> MTCRE/MTCNA/MTCTCE/MTCWE
> Total Highspeed Internet Services
> 417.851.1107
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jay Weekley" <par...@cyberbroadband.net>
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:27:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)
>
> They need clothing and transportation to food, water, shelter and
> medicine.  Or free delivery.
>
> Josh Luthman wrote:
>> Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone need
>> to survive.
>>
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum <cc...@wispmon.com
>> <mailto:cc...@wispmon.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop?
>> Why are others forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than
>> congenital defects, and some accidents, most health problems are
>> due to peoples choices. If our money is to be confiscated to pay
>> for everyone's "human right", don't we get a say in how they live?
>> How many other human rights are being trampled on then?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman
>> <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com <mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and
>> demand?  I'd agree on the whole hotel thing - you don't have
>> to stay there - but when you have some medical condition (and
>> while yes AIDS is something you can certainly avoid) I think
>> as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a basic human right.
>>
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340 
>> Direct: 937-552-2343 
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman
>> <lewis.berg...@gmail.com <mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that
>> pure capitalism is the best way demonstrated to date to
>> innovate and health care or pharma is not exempt. Big
>> rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These
>> pharma companies have something like 7 years until the
>> exclusivity period expires. That can be a pretty short
>> time to recover investments. This particular case may be a
>> bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken in
>> America is simply ludicrous.
>>
>> I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on
>> a Friday. Thursday night at the hotel was $159 and Friday
>> was $269. I don't think that is price gouging. I think it
>> is a reflection of the simple fact that there are fewer
>> rooms available on that particular night than are demanded
>> at $159. The equilibrium was found at $259 where supply
>> and demand come closer to being equal. At that price I
>> still witnessed people turned away wanting a room due to
>> their poor planning. I don't think that is price gouging.
>> Their hotel was full at $269 a night. The next day was
>> $159 again. Since the hotel was full they probably could
>> have been even higher.
>>
>> I really don't understand what people have such a huge
>> issue with the fundamental theory of supply and demand.
>> Yes I understand that it is a potentially life saving
>> drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe they
>> aren't as good, which is why they are cheaper. When did we
>> stop rewarding people for the value they provide? I know
>> this jerk didn't invent it but he obviously was willing to
>> reward those who did with a price they thought fair. Sales
>> over the next few years will prove if he made a mistake.
>>
>> Why not force Chuck to sell a unique mount he made for 5%
>> over

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

2015-12-18 Thread Chuck McCown

Well, a little known fact is that I only get 5% over the cost ;-(

From: Lewis Bergman 
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 7:47 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that pure capitalism is the 
best way demonstrated to date to innovate and health care or pharma is not 
exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These pharma 
companies have something like 7 years until the exclusivity period expires. 
That can be a pretty short time to recover investments. This particular case 
may be a bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken in America is simply 
ludicrous. 

I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on a Friday. Thursday 
night at the hotel was $159 and Friday was $269. I don't think that is price 
gouging. I think it is a reflection of the simple fact that there are fewer 
rooms available on that particular night than are demanded at $159. The 
equilibrium was found at $259 where supply and demand come closer to being 
equal. At that price I still witnessed people turned away wanting a room due to 
their poor planning. I don't think that is price gouging. Their hotel was full 
at $269 a night. The next day was $159 again. Since the hotel was full they 
probably could have been even higher.

I really don't understand what people have such a huge issue with the 
fundamental theory of supply and demand. Yes I understand that it is a 
potentially life saving drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe they 
aren't as good, which is why they are cheaper. When did we stop rewarding 
people for the value they provide? I know this jerk didn't invent it but he 
obviously was willing to reward those who did with a price they thought fair. 
Sales over the next few years will prove if he made a mistake.

Why not force Chuck to sell a unique mount he made for 5% over cost? Heck, why 
not only cover his cost? Why not less than cost and force him to provide his 
great product for the good of the people? There is a reason it is named Animal 
Farm. How many have read this book? While not about capitalism it does speak to 
the kind of central control that skulks below the overt argument for 
"controlling" this type of behavior.

I know people might die. I'll put on my really jerky hat and say "so what?". 
People die every day for less meaning and in greater numbers. There is 
practically a mass suicide movement going on now with texting and driving. I 
don't see where people value there lives or others that much anyway when 
reading a text or email is more important than life itself.
I guess I am just a big libertarian at heart. Give me the loose framework of a 
"fair market", whatever that is, and let the system fight it out. The word 
isn't fair, not ever going to be fair, stop trying to warp it to be that way.

Have fun with that on a Friday and have a Merry Christmas, Happy Hanuka, or 
whatever else gets your boat floating. 

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:02 AM Patrick Leary <patrick.le...@telrad.com> wrote:

  The irony? Your local poor schlub a-hole can be arrested and charged if he 
doubles the price of gas, water, or other life-critical goods after a natural 
disaster – that’s a crime in America. Meanwhile, it’s completely legal for a 
company to raise a life-critical drug by over 5000% -- that’s capitalism in 
America.

  Shkreli is only the most written about example. This “business trend’ is all 
the rage and has been widely employed in the U.S. for a number of years now.  
http://news.health.com/2015/09/25/6-insane-examples-of-prescription-drug-price-increases/

  Patrick

  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
  Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2015 8:28 PM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: [AFMUG] OT - Martin Shkreli

  Apparently this guy AND HIS LAWYER were arrested today.  Everybody knows him 
as the guy who raises drug prices 5000%, but I did not know he live streams 
almost daily to his fans.

  Watch the first video, isn't he just like every annoying, entitled, slacker 
kid living in his parents basement that we have to deal with bitching about his 
Internet?  Except he is CEO of a drug company.

  I didn't think it was possible to hate him more, but watch the video.

  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8gjB1PSXv_oAUSAQ16S0fA

  This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by
  PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer 
viruses.

  This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by
  PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer 
viruses.

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone need to
survive.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum  wrote:

> Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop? Why are
> others forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than congenital defects,
> and some accidents, most health problems are due to peoples choices. If our
> money is to be confiscated to pay for everyone's "human right", don't we
> get a say in how they live? How many other human rights are being trampled
> on then?
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman  > wrote:
>
>> Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and demand?  I'd
>> agree on the whole hotel thing - you don't have to stay there - but when
>> you have some medical condition (and while yes AIDS is something you can
>> certainly avoid) I think as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a
>> basic human right.
>>
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that pure capitalism
>>> is the best way demonstrated to date to innovate and health care or pharma
>>> is not exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These
>>> pharma companies have something like 7 years until the exclusivity period
>>> expires. That can be a pretty short time to recover investments. This
>>> particular case may be a bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken
>>> in America is simply ludicrous.
>>>
>>> I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on a Friday.
>>> Thursday night at the hotel was $159 and Friday was $269. I don't think
>>> that is price gouging. I think it is a reflection of the simple fact that
>>> there are fewer rooms available on that particular night than are demanded
>>> at $159. The equilibrium was found at $259 where supply and demand come
>>> closer to being equal. At that price I still witnessed people turned away
>>> wanting a room due to their poor planning. I don't think that is price
>>> gouging. Their hotel was full at $269 a night. The next day was $159 again.
>>> Since the hotel was full they probably could have been even higher.
>>>
>>> I really don't understand what people have such a huge issue with the
>>> fundamental theory of supply and demand. Yes I understand that it is a
>>> potentially life saving drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe
>>> they aren't as good, which is why they are cheaper. When did we stop
>>> rewarding people for the value they provide? I know this jerk didn't invent
>>> it but he obviously was willing to reward those who did with a price they
>>> thought fair. Sales over the next few years will prove if he made a mistake.
>>>
>>> Why not force Chuck to sell a unique mount he made for 5% over cost?
>>> Heck, why not only cover his cost? Why not less than cost and force him to
>>> provide his great product for the good of the people? There is a reason it
>>> is named Animal Farm. How many have read this book? While not about
>>> capitalism it does speak to the kind of central control that skulks below
>>> the overt argument for "controlling" this type of behavior.
>>>
>>> I know people might die. I'll put on my really jerky hat and say "so
>>> what?". People die every day for less meaning and in greater numbers. There
>>> is practically a mass suicide movement going on now with texting and
>>> driving. I don't see where people value there lives or others that much
>>> anyway when reading a text or email is more important than life itself.
>>> I guess I am just a big libertarian at heart. Give me the loose
>>> framework of a "fair market", whatever that is, and let the system fight it
>>> out. The word isn't fair, not ever going to be fair, stop trying to warp it
>>> to be that way.
>>>
>>> Have fun with that on a Friday and have a Merry Christmas, Happy Hanuka,
>>> or whatever else gets your boat floating.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:02 AM Patrick Leary 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 The irony? Your local poor schlub a-hole can be arrested and charged if
 he doubles the price of gas, water, or other life-critical goods after a
 natural disaster – that’s a crime in America. Meanwhile, it’s completely
 legal for a company to raise a life-critical drug by over 5000% -- that’s
 capitalism in America.



 Shkreli is only the most written about example. This “business trend’
 is all the rage and has been widely employed in the U.S. for a number of
 years now.
 http://news.health.com/2015/09/25/6-insane-examples-of-prescription-drug-price-increases/



 Patrick



 *From:* Af

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

The drug he bought was 60 years old and any R costs were long ago paid for, 
and by the original company. His company is also not investing heavily in new 
drugs. His business model is to buy old drugs like Daraprim and hike the price.

Patrick Leary, Telrad
727-501-3735

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:48 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that pure capitalism is the 
best way demonstrated to date to innovate and health care or pharma is not 
exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These pharma 
companies have something like 7 years until the exclusivity period expires. 
That can be a pretty short time to recover investments. This particular case 
may be a bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken in America is simply 
ludicrous.

I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on a Friday. Thursday 
night at the hotel was $159 and Friday was $269. I don't think that is price 
gouging. I think it is a reflection of the simple fact that there are fewer 
rooms available on that particular night than are demanded at $159. The 
equilibrium was found at $259 where supply and demand come closer to being 
equal. At that price I still witnessed people turned away wanting a room due to 
their poor planning. I don't think that is price gouging. Their hotel was full 
at $269 a night. The next day was $159 again. Since the hotel was full they 
probably could have been even higher.

I really don't understand what people have such a huge issue with the 
fundamental theory of supply and demand. Yes I understand that it is a 
potentially life saving drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe they 
aren't as good, which is why they are cheaper. When did we stop rewarding 
people for the value they provide? I know this jerk didn't invent it but he 
obviously was willing to reward those who did with a price they thought fair. 
Sales over the next few years will prove if he made a mistake.

Why not force Chuck to sell a unique mount he made for 5% over cost? Heck, why 
not only cover his cost? Why not less than cost and force him to provide his 
great product for the good of the people? There is a reason it is named Animal 
Farm. How many have read this book? While not about capitalism it does speak to 
the kind of central control that skulks below the overt argument for 
"controlling" this type of behavior.

I know people might die. I'll put on my really jerky hat and say "so what?". 
People die every day for less meaning and in greater numbers. There is 
practically a mass suicide movement going on now with texting and driving. I 
don't see where people value there lives or others that much anyway when 
reading a text or email is more important than life itself.
I guess I am just a big libertarian at heart. Give me the loose framework of a 
"fair market", whatever that is, and let the system fight it out. The word 
isn't fair, not ever going to be fair, stop trying to warp it to be that way.

Have fun with that on a Friday and have a Merry Christmas, Happy Hanuka, or 
whatever else gets your boat floating.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:02 AM Patrick Leary 
<patrick.le...@telrad.com<mailto:patrick.le...@telrad.com>> wrote:
The irony? Your local poor schlub a-hole can be arrested and charged if he 
doubles the price of gas, water, or other life-critical goods after a natural 
disaster – that’s a crime in America. Meanwhile, it’s completely legal for a 
company to raise a life-critical drug by over 5000% -- that’s capitalism in 
America.

Shkreli is only the most written about example. This “business trend’ is all 
the rage and has been widely employed in the U.S. for a number of years now.  
http://news.health.com/2015/09/25/6-insane-examples-of-prescription-drug-price-increases/

Patrick

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com>] On Behalf 
Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2015 8:28 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: [AFMUG] OT - Martin Shkreli

Apparently this guy AND HIS LAWYER were arrested today.  Everybody knows him as 
the guy who raises drug prices 5000%, but I did not know he live streams almost 
daily to his fans.

Watch the first video, isn't he just like every annoying, entitled, slacker kid 
living in his parents basement that we have to deal with bitching about his 
Internet?  Except he is CEO of a drug company.

I didn't think it was possible to hate him more, but watch the video.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8gjB1PSXv_oAUSAQ16S0fA

This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by
PineApp Mail-SeCure for the p

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

They need clothing and transportation to food, water, shelter and 
medicine.  Or free delivery.

Josh Luthman wrote:
Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone need 
to survive.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum > wrote:

Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop?
Why are others forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than
congenital defects, and some accidents, most health problems are
due to peoples choices. If our money is to be confiscated to pay
for everyone's "human right", don't we get a say in how they live?
How many other human rights are being trampled on then?

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman
>
wrote:

Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and
demand?  I'd agree on the whole hotel thing - you don't have
to stay there - but when you have some medical condition (and
while yes AIDS is something you can certainly avoid) I think
as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a basic human right.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340 
Direct: 937-552-2343 
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman
> wrote:

I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that
pure capitalism is the best way demonstrated to date to
innovate and health care or pharma is not exempt. Big
rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These
pharma companies have something like 7 years until the
exclusivity period expires. That can be a pretty short
time to recover investments. This particular case may be a
bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken in
America is simply ludicrous.

I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on
a Friday. Thursday night at the hotel was $159 and Friday
was $269. I don't think that is price gouging. I think it
is a reflection of the simple fact that there are fewer
rooms available on that particular night than are demanded
at $159. The equilibrium was found at $259 where supply
and demand come closer to being equal. At that price I
still witnessed people turned away wanting a room due to
their poor planning. I don't think that is price gouging.
Their hotel was full at $269 a night. The next day was
$159 again. Since the hotel was full they probably could
have been even higher.

I really don't understand what people have such a huge
issue with the fundamental theory of supply and demand.
Yes I understand that it is a potentially life saving
drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe they
aren't as good, which is why they are cheaper. When did we
stop rewarding people for the value they provide? I know
this jerk didn't invent it but he obviously was willing to
reward those who did with a price they thought fair. Sales
over the next few years will prove if he made a mistake.

Why not force Chuck to sell a unique mount he made for 5%
over cost? Heck, why not only cover his cost? Why not less
than cost and force him to provide his great product for
the good of the people? There is a reason it is named
Animal Farm. How many have read this book? While not about
capitalism it does speak to the kind of central control
that skulks below the overt argument for "controlling"
this type of behavior.

I know people might die. I'll put on my really jerky hat
and say "so what?". People die every day for less meaning
and in greater numbers. There is practically a mass
suicide movement going on now with texting and driving. I
don't see where people value there lives or others that
much anyway when reading a text or email is more important
than life itself.
I guess I am just a big libertarian at heart. Give me the
loose framework of a "fair market", whatever that is, and
let the system fight it out. The word isn't fair, not ever
going to be fair, stop trying to warp it to be that way.

Have fun with that on a Friday and have a Merry Christmas,
Happy Hanuka, or whatever else gets your boat floating.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:02 AM Patrick

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

2015-12-18 Thread Simon Westlake

So, other than all the cases where it's completely outside of someones 
control, it's in their control ;) We really don't have a good handle on 
the root cause of many diseases, and I'm sure we're all guilty of not 
taking the best possible care of our bodies.

The tough part I have with capitalism on healthcare is that it's almost 
impossible for it to be competitive. I shop around for a mechanic, or a 
landscaper or a builder. I'm not going to shop around for drugs and 
doctors when I have cancer. I don't know enough to make a qualified 
decision and it's not realistic to think I'm going to research every 
possible drug, side effect, cost, etc, before I get sick. Or be able to 
understand it all and make an informed decision.

On 12/18/2015 9:04 AM, Cameron Crum wrote:
Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop? Why 
are others forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than congenital 
defects, and some accidents, most health problems are due to peoples 
choices. If our money is to be confiscated to pay for everyone's 
"human right", don't we get a say in how they live? How many other 
human rights are being trampled on then?

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman 
> wrote:

Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and demand? 
I'd agree on the whole hotel thing - you don't have to stay there

- but when you have some medical condition (and while yes AIDS is
something you can certainly avoid) I think as a society and a
culture we shouldn't deny a basic human right.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340 
Direct: 937-552-2343 
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman
> wrote:

I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that pure
capitalism is the best way demonstrated to date to innovate
and health care or pharma is not exempt. Big rewards encourage
big effort yielding big results. These pharma companies have
something like 7 years until the exclusivity period expires.
That can be a pretty short time to recover investments. This
particular case may be a bit extreme but to say that
capitalism is broken in America is simply ludicrous.

I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on a
Friday. Thursday night at the hotel was $159 and Friday was
$269. I don't think that is price gouging. I think it is a
reflection of the simple fact that there are fewer rooms
available on that particular night than are demanded at $159.
The equilibrium was found at $259 where supply and demand come
closer to being equal. At that price I still witnessed people
turned away wanting a room due to their poor planning. I don't
think that is price gouging. Their hotel was full at $269 a
night. The next day was $159 again. Since the hotel was full
they probably could have been even higher.

I really don't understand what people have such a huge issue
with the fundamental theory of supply and demand. Yes I
understand that it is a potentially life saving drug. There
are other cheaper treatments. Maybe they aren't as good, which
is why they are cheaper. When did we stop rewarding people for
the value they provide? I know this jerk didn't invent it but
he obviously was willing to reward those who did with a price
they thought fair. Sales over the next few years will prove if
he made a mistake.

Why not force Chuck to sell a unique mount he made for 5% over
cost? Heck, why not only cover his cost? Why not less than
cost and force him to provide his great product for the good
of the people? There is a reason it is named Animal Farm. How
many have read this book? While not about capitalism it does
speak to the kind of central control that skulks below the
overt argument for "controlling" this type of behavior.

I know people might die. I'll put on my really jerky hat and
say "so what?". People die every day for less meaning and in
greater numbers. There is practically a mass suicide movement
going on now with texting and driving. I don't see where
people value there lives or others that much anyway when
reading a text or email is more important than life itself.
I guess I am just a big libertarian at heart. Give me the
loose framework of a "fair market", whatever that is, and let
the system fight it out. The word isn't fair, not ever going
to be fair, stop trying to warp it to be that way.

Have fun with that on a Friday and have a Merry Christmas,
Happy Hanuka, or whatever else gets your

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

2015-12-18 Thread Christopher Tyler

And a free cell phone so they can call the pharmacy.

-- 
Christopher Tyler 
MTCRE/MTCNA/MTCTCE/MTCWE 
Total Highspeed Internet Services 
417.851.1107

- Original Message -
From: "Jay Weekley" <par...@cyberbroadband.net>
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:27:13 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

They need clothing and transportation to food, water, shelter and 
medicine.  Or free delivery.

Josh Luthman wrote:
> Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone need 
> to survive.
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum <cc...@wispmon.com 
> <mailto:cc...@wispmon.com>> wrote:
>
> Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop?
> Why are others forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than
> congenital defects, and some accidents, most health problems are
> due to peoples choices. If our money is to be confiscated to pay
> for everyone's "human right", don't we get a say in how they live?
> How many other human rights are being trampled on then?
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman
> <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com <mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and
> demand?  I'd agree on the whole hotel thing - you don't have
> to stay there - but when you have some medical condition (and
> while yes AIDS is something you can certainly avoid) I think
> as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a basic human right.
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340 
> Direct: 937-552-2343 
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman
> <lewis.berg...@gmail.com <mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that
> pure capitalism is the best way demonstrated to date to
> innovate and health care or pharma is not exempt. Big
> rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These
> pharma companies have something like 7 years until the
> exclusivity period expires. That can be a pretty short
> time to recover investments. This particular case may be a
> bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken in
> America is simply ludicrous.
>
> I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on
> a Friday. Thursday night at the hotel was $159 and Friday
> was $269. I don't think that is price gouging. I think it
> is a reflection of the simple fact that there are fewer
> rooms available on that particular night than are demanded
> at $159. The equilibrium was found at $259 where supply
> and demand come closer to being equal. At that price I
> still witnessed people turned away wanting a room due to
> their poor planning. I don't think that is price gouging.
> Their hotel was full at $269 a night. The next day was
> $159 again. Since the hotel was full they probably could
> have been even higher.
>
> I really don't understand what people have such a huge
> issue with the fundamental theory of supply and demand.
> Yes I understand that it is a potentially life saving
> drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe they
> aren't as good, which is why they are cheaper. When did we
> stop rewarding people for the value they provide? I know
> this jerk didn't invent it but he obviously was willing to
> reward those who did with a price they thought fair. Sales
> over the next few years will prove if he made a mistake.
>
> Why not force Chuck to sell a unique mount he made for 5%
> over cost? Heck, why not only cover his cost? Why not less
> than cost and force him to provide his great product for
> the good of the people? There is a reason it is named
> Animal Farm. How many have read this book? While not about
> capitalism it does speak to the kind of central control
> that skulks below the overt argument for "controlling"
> this type of behavior.
>
> I know people might die. I'll put on my really jerky hat
>

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

2015-12-18 Thread Ken Hohhof

The guy isn’t “brash”, any of the adjectives I think of are inappropriate for a 
public forum.

Read this interview, or just skip to the end:
http://hiphopdx.com/interviews/id.2825/title.martin-shkreli-plans-to-bail-out-bobby-shmurda

Or watch his live stream.

As far as capitalism, the approach is to find something that is inexpensive to 
make and has been around forever and there is only one supplier because there 
isn’t enough demand for multiple suppliers.  So you buy that supplier and jack 
the price up to ridiculous levels until a competitor can go through getting 
government approval to compete, which can take a year or more.  Meanwhile, you 
make a bazillion percent profit, because of a temporary market failure.

That isn’t really capitalism.  It’s exploiting a loophole.  Capitalism assumes 
an efficient market, where competition drives prices down to cost plus a 
reasonable profit.  The pharma market is different for two reasons.  First, 
there is a lengthy government approval process.  Second, the payer is usually 
an insurance company, pharmacy benefit manager, or Medicare.


From: Lewis Bergman 
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 8:47 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that pure capitalism is the 
best way demonstrated to date to innovate and health care or pharma is not 
exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These pharma 
companies have something like 7 years until the exclusivity period expires. 
That can be a pretty short time to recover investments. This particular case 
may be a bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken in America is simply 
ludicrous. 

I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on a Friday. Thursday 
night at the hotel was $159 and Friday was $269. I don't think that is price 
gouging. I think it is a reflection of the simple fact that there are fewer 
rooms available on that particular night than are demanded at $159. The 
equilibrium was found at $259 where supply and demand come closer to being 
equal. At that price I still witnessed people turned away wanting a room due to 
their poor planning. I don't think that is price gouging. Their hotel was full 
at $269 a night. The next day was $159 again. Since the hotel was full they 
probably could have been even higher.

I really don't understand what people have such a huge issue with the 
fundamental theory of supply and demand. Yes I understand that it is a 
potentially life saving drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe they 
aren't as good, which is why they are cheaper. When did we stop rewarding 
people for the value they provide? I know this jerk didn't invent it but he 
obviously was willing to reward those who did with a price they thought fair. 
Sales over the next few years will prove if he made a mistake.

Why not force Chuck to sell a unique mount he made for 5% over cost? Heck, why 
not only cover his cost? Why not less than cost and force him to provide his 
great product for the good of the people? There is a reason it is named Animal 
Farm. How many have read this book? While not about capitalism it does speak to 
the kind of central control that skulks below the overt argument for 
"controlling" this type of behavior.

I know people might die. I'll put on my really jerky hat and say "so what?". 
People die every day for less meaning and in greater numbers. There is 
practically a mass suicide movement going on now with texting and driving. I 
don't see where people value there lives or others that much anyway when 
reading a text or email is more important than life itself.
I guess I am just a big libertarian at heart. Give me the loose framework of a 
"fair market", whatever that is, and let the system fight it out. The word 
isn't fair, not ever going to be fair, stop trying to warp it to be that way.

Have fun with that on a Friday and have a Merry Christmas, Happy Hanuka, or 
whatever else gets your boat floating. 

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:02 AM Patrick Leary <patrick.le...@telrad.com> wrote:

  The irony? Your local poor schlub a-hole can be arrested and charged if he 
doubles the price of gas, water, or other life-critical goods after a natural 
disaster – that’s a crime in America. Meanwhile, it’s completely legal for a 
company to raise a life-critical drug by over 5000% -- that’s capitalism in 
America.



  Shkreli is only the most written about example. This “business trend’ is all 
the rage and has been widely employed in the U.S. for a number of years now.  
http://news.health.com/2015/09/25/6-insane-examples-of-prescription-drug-price-increases/



  Patrick



  From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
  Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2015 8:28 PM
  To: af@afmug.com
  Subject: [AFMUG] OT - Martin Shkreli



  Apparently this guy AND HIS LAWYER were arrested today.  Everybody knows him 
as

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that pure capitalism is
the best way demonstrated to date to innovate and health care or pharma is
not exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These
pharma companies have something like 7 years until the exclusivity period
expires. That can be a pretty short time to recover investments. This
particular case may be a bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken
in America is simply ludicrous.

I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on a Friday.
Thursday night at the hotel was $159 and Friday was $269. I don't think
that is price gouging. I think it is a reflection of the simple fact that
there are fewer rooms available on that particular night than are demanded
at $159. The equilibrium was found at $259 where supply and demand come
closer to being equal. At that price I still witnessed people turned away
wanting a room due to their poor planning. I don't think that is price
gouging. Their hotel was full at $269 a night. The next day was $159 again.
Since the hotel was full they probably could have been even higher.

I really don't understand what people have such a huge issue with the
fundamental theory of supply and demand. Yes I understand that it is a
potentially life saving drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe
they aren't as good, which is why they are cheaper. When did we stop
rewarding people for the value they provide? I know this jerk didn't invent
it but he obviously was willing to reward those who did with a price they
thought fair. Sales over the next few years will prove if he made a mistake.

Why not force Chuck to sell a unique mount he made for 5% over cost? Heck,
why not only cover his cost? Why not less than cost and force him to
provide his great product for the good of the people? There is a reason it
is named Animal Farm. How many have read this book? While not about
capitalism it does speak to the kind of central control that skulks below
the overt argument for "controlling" this type of behavior.

I know people might die. I'll put on my really jerky hat and say "so
what?". People die every day for less meaning and in greater numbers. There
is practically a mass suicide movement going on now with texting and
driving. I don't see where people value there lives or others that much
anyway when reading a text or email is more important than life itself.
I guess I am just a big libertarian at heart. Give me the loose framework
of a "fair market", whatever that is, and let the system fight it out. The
word isn't fair, not ever going to be fair, stop trying to warp it to be
that way.

Have fun with that on a Friday and have a Merry Christmas, Happy Hanuka, or
whatever else gets your boat floating.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:02 AM Patrick Leary 
wrote:

> The irony? Your local poor schlub a-hole can be arrested and charged if he
> doubles the price of gas, water, or other life-critical goods after a
> natural disaster – that’s a crime in America. Meanwhile, it’s completely
> legal for a company to raise a life-critical drug by over 5000% -- that’s
> capitalism in America.
>
>
>
> Shkreli is only the most written about example. This “business trend’ is
> all the rage and has been widely employed in the U.S. for a number of years
> now.
> http://news.health.com/2015/09/25/6-insane-examples-of-prescription-drug-price-increases/
>
>
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Ken Hohhof
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 17, 2015 8:28 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] OT - Martin Shkreli
>
>
>
> Apparently this guy AND HIS LAWYER were arrested today.  Everybody knows
> him as the guy who raises drug prices 5000%, but I did not know he live
> streams almost daily to his fans.
>
>
>
> Watch the first video, isn't he just like every annoying, entitled,
> slacker kid living in his parents basement that we have to deal with
> bitching about his Internet?  Except he is CEO of a drug company.
>
>
>
> I didn't think it was possible to hate him more, but watch the video.
>
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8gjB1PSXv_oAUSAQ16S0fA
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by
> PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer
> viruses.
>
> 
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by
> PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer
> viruses.
>
> 
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

I loophole created by the government from the regulatory environment the
government setup which now needs to be fixed by Whom? The government. Not
saying there should be no regulation of drugs. I don't want to go back to
the tapeworm diet pill. But the pharma industry is an excellent example of
why everything the government gets involved in will eventually be so broken
it needs to be trashed and restarted from scratch.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:06 AM Ken Hohhof <af...@kwisp.com> wrote:

> The guy isn’t “brash”, any of the adjectives I think of are inappropriate
> for a public forum.
>
> Read this interview, or just skip to the end:
>
> http://hiphopdx.com/interviews/id.2825/title.martin-shkreli-plans-to-bail-out-bobby-shmurda
>
> Or watch his live stream.
>
> As far as capitalism, the approach is to find something that is
> inexpensive to make and has been around forever and there is only one
> supplier because there isn’t enough demand for multiple suppliers.  So you
> buy that supplier and jack the price up to ridiculous levels until a
> competitor can go through getting government approval to compete, which can
> take a year or more.  Meanwhile, you make a bazillion percent profit,
> because of a temporary market failure.
>
> That isn’t really capitalism.  It’s exploiting a loophole.  Capitalism
> assumes an efficient market, where competition drives prices down to cost
> plus a reasonable profit.  The pharma market is different for two reasons.
> First, there is a lengthy government approval process.  Second, the payer
> is usually an insurance company, pharmacy benefit manager, or Medicare.
>
>
> *From:* Lewis Bergman <lewis.berg...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2015 8:47 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)
>
> I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that pure capitalism is
> the best way demonstrated to date to innovate and health care or pharma is
> not exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These
> pharma companies have something like 7 years until the exclusivity period
> expires. That can be a pretty short time to recover investments. This
> particular case may be a bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken
> in America is simply ludicrous.
>
> I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on a Friday.
> Thursday night at the hotel was $159 and Friday was $269. I don't think
> that is price gouging. I think it is a reflection of the simple fact that
> there are fewer rooms available on that particular night than are demanded
> at $159. The equilibrium was found at $259 where supply and demand come
> closer to being equal. At that price I still witnessed people turned away
> wanting a room due to their poor planning. I don't think that is price
> gouging. Their hotel was full at $269 a night. The next day was $159 again.
> Since the hotel was full they probably could have been even higher.
>
> I really don't understand what people have such a huge issue with the
> fundamental theory of supply and demand. Yes I understand that it is a
> potentially life saving drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe
> they aren't as good, which is why they are cheaper. When did we stop
> rewarding people for the value they provide? I know this jerk didn't invent
> it but he obviously was willing to reward those who did with a price they
> thought fair. Sales over the next few years will prove if he made a mistake.
>
> Why not force Chuck to sell a unique mount he made for 5% over cost? Heck,
> why not only cover his cost? Why not less than cost and force him to
> provide his great product for the good of the people? There is a reason it
> is named Animal Farm. How many have read this book? While not about
> capitalism it does speak to the kind of central control that skulks below
> the overt argument for "controlling" this type of behavior.
>
> I know people might die. I'll put on my really jerky hat and say "so
> what?". People die every day for less meaning and in greater numbers. There
> is practically a mass suicide movement going on now with texting and
> driving. I don't see where people value there lives or others that much
> anyway when reading a text or email is more important than life itself.
> I guess I am just a big libertarian at heart. Give me the loose framework
> of a "fair market", whatever that is, and let the system fight it out. The
> word isn't fair, not ever going to be fair, stop trying to warp it to be
> that way.
>
> Have fun with that on a Friday and have a Merry Christmas, Happy Hanuka,
> or whatever else gets your boat floating.
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:02 AM Patrick Leary <patrick.le...

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

2015-12-18 Thread Ken Hohhof

I have the TV news channel on and they just played a clip from the movie 
“Christmas Vacation” that I could borrow to describe Shkreli:

I want him brought from his happy holiday slumber over there on Melody Lane 
with all the other rich people and I want him brought right here, with a big 
ribbon on his head, and I want to look him straight in the eye and I want to 
tell him what a cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, four-flushing, low-life, 
snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant, blood-sucking, 
dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless, fat-ass, bug-eyed, 
stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey shit he is! Hallelujah! 
Holy shit! Where's the Tylenol? 



From: Josh Luthman 
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:34 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

Damn you guys are brutal!


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Ken Hohhof <af...@kwisp.com> wrote:

  Bah, humbug.

  -Original Message- From: Christopher Tyler
  Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:28 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 

  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

  And a free cell phone so they can call the pharmacy.

  -- 
  Christopher Tyler
  MTCRE/MTCNA/MTCTCE/MTCWE
  Total Highspeed Internet Services
  417.851.1107

  - Original Message -
  From: "Jay Weekley" <par...@cyberbroadband.net>
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:27:13 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

  They need clothing and transportation to food, water, shelter and
  medicine.  Or free delivery.

  Josh Luthman wrote:

Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone need
to survive.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum <cc...@wispmon.com
<mailto:cc...@wispmon.com>> wrote:

Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop?
Why are others forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than
congenital defects, and some accidents, most health problems are
due to peoples choices. If our money is to be confiscated to pay
for everyone's "human right", don't we get a say in how they live?
How many other human rights are being trampled on then?



On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman
<j...@imaginenetworksllc.com <mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>>
wrote:

Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and
demand?  I'd agree on the whole hotel thing - you don't have
to stay there - but when you have some medical condition (and
while yes AIDS is something you can certainly avoid) I think
as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a basic human right.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340 
Direct: 937-552-2343 
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman
<lewis.berg...@gmail.com <mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that
pure capitalism is the best way demonstrated to date to
innovate and health care or pharma is not exempt. Big
rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These
pharma companies have something like 7 years until the
exclusivity period expires. That can be a pretty short
time to recover investments. This particular case may be a
bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken in
America is simply ludicrous.

I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on
a Friday. Thursday night at the hotel was $159 and Friday
was $269. I don't think that is price gouging. I think it
is a reflection of the simple fact that there are fewer
rooms available on that particular night than are demanded
at $159. The equilibrium was found at $259 where supply
and demand come closer to being equal. At that price I
still witnessed people turned away wanting a room due to
their poor planning. I don't think that is price gouging.
Their hotel was full at $269 a night. The next day was
$159 again. Since the hotel was full they probably could
have been even higher.

I really don't understand what people have such a huge
issue with the fundamental theory of supply and demand.
Yes I

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

You know Die Hard and Bad Santa are my Christmas movies anymore.
Griswold's Family Christmas just doesn't do it for me anymore...


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:38 AM, Ken Hohhof <af...@kwisp.com> wrote:

> I have the TV news channel on and they just played a clip from the movie
> “Christmas Vacation” that I could borrow to describe Shkreli:
>
> I want him brought from his happy holiday slumber over there on Melody
> Lane with all the other rich people and I want him brought right here, with
> a big ribbon on his head, and I want to look him straight in the eye and I
> want to tell him what a cheap, lying, no-good, rotten, four-flushing,
> low-life, snake-licking, dirt-eating, inbred, overstuffed, ignorant,
> blood-sucking, dog-kissing, brainless, dickless, hopeless, heartless,
> fat-ass, bug-eyed, stiff-legged, spotty-lipped, worm-headed sack of monkey
> shit he is! Hallelujah! Holy shit! Where's the Tylenol?
>
>
>
> *From:* Josh Luthman <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2015 9:34 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)
>
> Damn you guys are brutal!
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Ken Hohhof <af...@kwisp.com> wrote:
>
>> Bah, humbug.
>>
>> -Original Message- From: Christopher Tyler
>> Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:28 AM
>> To: af@afmug.com
>>
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)
>>
>> And a free cell phone so they can call the pharmacy.
>>
>> --
>> Christopher Tyler
>> MTCRE/MTCNA/MTCTCE/MTCWE
>> Total Highspeed Internet Services
>> 417.851.1107
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Jay Weekley" <par...@cyberbroadband.net>
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:27:13 AM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)
>>
>> They need clothing and transportation to food, water, shelter and
>> medicine.  Or free delivery.
>>
>> Josh Luthman wrote:
>>
>>> Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone need
>>> to survive.
>>>
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum <cc...@wispmon.com
>>> <mailto:cc...@wispmon.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop?
>>> Why are others forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than
>>> congenital defects, and some accidents, most health problems are
>>> due to peoples choices. If our money is to be confiscated to pay
>>> for everyone's "human right", don't we get a say in how they live?
>>> How many other human rights are being trampled on then?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman
>>> <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com <mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and
>>> demand?  I'd agree on the whole hotel thing - you don't have
>>> to stay there - but when you have some medical condition (and
>>> while yes AIDS is something you can certainly avoid) I think
>>> as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a basic human right.
>>>
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340 
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343 
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman
>>> <lewis.berg...@gmail.com <mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that
>>> pure capitalism is the best way demonstrated to date to
>>> innovate and health care or pharma is not exempt. Big
>>> rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These
>>> pharma companies have something like 7 years until the
>>> exclusivity period expires. That can be a pretty short
>>>

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

I have to disagree. 200 years ago there were practically no medicines worth
talking about yet here we all are. Medicine, while a fantastic advancement,
does not rise to the level of air, water, food, and shelter.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:17 AM Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone need to
> survive.
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum  wrote:
>
>> Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop? Why are
>> others forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than congenital defects,
>> and some accidents, most health problems are due to peoples choices. If our
>> money is to be confiscated to pay for everyone's "human right", don't we
>> get a say in how they live? How many other human rights are being trampled
>> on then?
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman <
>> j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
>>
> Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and demand?  I'd
>>> agree on the whole hotel thing - you don't have to stay there - but when
>>> you have some medical condition (and while yes AIDS is something you can
>>> certainly avoid) I think as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a
>>> basic human right.
>>>
>>
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>> I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that pure capitalism
 is the best way demonstrated to date to innovate and health care or pharma
 is not exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These
 pharma companies have something like 7 years until the exclusivity period
 expires. That can be a pretty short time to recover investments. This
 particular case may be a bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken
 in America is simply ludicrous.

 I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on a Friday.
 Thursday night at the hotel was $159 and Friday was $269. I don't think
 that is price gouging. I think it is a reflection of the simple fact that
 there are fewer rooms available on that particular night than are demanded
 at $159. The equilibrium was found at $259 where supply and demand come
 closer to being equal. At that price I still witnessed people turned away
 wanting a room due to their poor planning. I don't think that is price
 gouging. Their hotel was full at $269 a night. The next day was $159 again.
 Since the hotel was full they probably could have been even higher.

 I really don't understand what people have such a huge issue with the
 fundamental theory of supply and demand. Yes I understand that it is a
 potentially life saving drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe
 they aren't as good, which is why they are cheaper. When did we stop
 rewarding people for the value they provide? I know this jerk didn't invent
 it but he obviously was willing to reward those who did with a price they
 thought fair. Sales over the next few years will prove if he made a 
 mistake.

 Why not force Chuck to sell a unique mount he made for 5% over cost?
 Heck, why not only cover his cost? Why not less than cost and force him to
 provide his great product for the good of the people? There is a reason it
 is named Animal Farm. How many have read this book? While not about
 capitalism it does speak to the kind of central control that skulks below
 the overt argument for "controlling" this type of behavior.

 I know people might die. I'll put on my really jerky hat and say "so
 what?". People die every day for less meaning and in greater numbers. There
 is practically a mass suicide movement going on now with texting and
 driving. I don't see where people value there lives or others that much
 anyway when reading a text or email is more important than life itself.
 I guess I am just a big libertarian at heart. Give me the loose
 framework of a "fair market", whatever that is, and let the system fight it
 out. The word isn't fair, not ever going to be fair, stop trying to warp it
 to be that way.

 Have fun with that on a Friday and have a Merry Christmas, Happy
 Hanuka, or whatever else gets your boat floating.

 On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:02 AM Patrick Leary 
 wrote:

> The irony? Your local poor schlub a-hole can be arrested and charged
> if he doubles the price of gas, water, or other life-critical goods after 
> a
> natural disaster – that’s a crime in America. Meanwhile, it’s completely
> legal for a company to raise a

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

I have to ask myself why a drug that is 69 years old is manufactured by
one entity in the US and other global manufacturers don't have access to
our market. More research would probably give me the answer or a bunch
of conspiracy theories.

Lewis Bergman wrote:
I loophole created by the government from the regulatory environment
the government setup which now needs to be fixed by Whom? The
government. Not saying there should be no regulation of drugs. I don't
want to go back to the tapeworm diet pill. But the pharma industry is
an excellent example of why everything the government gets involved in
will eventually be so broken it needs to be trashed and restarted from
scratch.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:06 AM Ken Hohhof <af...@kwisp.com
<mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:

The guy isn’t “brash”, any of the adjectives I think of are
inappropriate for a public forum.
Read this interview, or just skip to the end:

http://hiphopdx.com/interviews/id.2825/title.martin-shkreli-plans-to-bail-out-bobby-shmurda
Or watch his live stream.
As far as capitalism, the approach is to find something that is
inexpensive to make and has been around forever and there is only
one supplier because there isn’t enough demand for multiple
suppliers. So you buy that supplier and jack the price up to
ridiculous levels until a competitor can go through getting
government approval to compete, which can take a year or more.
Meanwhile, you make a bazillion percent profit, because of a

temporary market failure.
That isn’t really capitalism. It’s exploiting a loophole.
Capitalism assumes an efficient market, where competition drives

prices down to cost plus a reasonable profit. The pharma market
is different for two reasons. First, there is a lengthy
government approval process. Second, the payer is usually an
insurance company, pharmacy benefit manager, or Medicare.
*From:* Lewis Bergman <mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2015 8:47 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)
I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that pure
capitalism is the best way demonstrated to date to innovate and
health care or pharma is not exempt. Big rewards encourage big
effort yielding big results. These pharma companies have something
like 7 years until the exclusivity period expires. That can be a
pretty short time to recover investments. This particular case may
be a bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken in America
is simply ludicrous.
I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on a
Friday. Thursday night at the hotel was $159 and Friday was $269.
I don't think that is price gouging. I think it is a reflection of
the simple fact that there are fewer rooms available on that
particular night than are demanded at $159. The equilibrium was
found at $259 where supply and demand come closer to being equal.
At that price I still witnessed people turned away wanting a room
due to their poor planning. I don't think that is price gouging.
Their hotel was full at $269 a night. The next day was $159 again.
Since the hotel was full they probably could have been even higher.
I really don't understand what people have such a huge issue with
the fundamental theory of supply and demand. Yes I understand that
it is a potentially life saving drug. There are other cheaper
treatments. Maybe they aren't as good, which is why they are
cheaper. When did we stop rewarding people for the value they
provide? I know this jerk didn't invent it but he obviously was
willing to reward those who did with a price they thought fair.
Sales over the next few years will prove if he made a mistake.
Why not force Chuck to sell a unique mount he made for 5% over
cost? Heck, why not only cover his cost? Why not less than cost
and force him to provide his great product for the good of the
people? There is a reason it is named Animal Farm. How many have
read this book? While not about capitalism it does speak to the
kind of central control that skulks below the overt argument for
"controlling" this type of behavior.
I know people might die. I'll put on my really jerky hat and say
"so what?". People die every day for less meaning and in greater
numbers. There is practically a mass suicide movement going on now
with texting and driving. I don't see where people value there
lives or others that much anyway when reading a text or email is
more important than life itself.
I guess I am just a big libertarian at heart. Give me the loose
framework of a "fair market", whatever that is, and let the system
fight it out. The word isn't fair, not ever going to be fai

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

2015-12-18 Thread Ken Hohhof

Here’s some more info on how he games the system (have to read the article, 
it’s a more complicated scam than just raising prices).

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/12/business/martin-shkrelis-latest-plan-to-sharply-raise-drug-price-prompts-outcry.html?_r=0

From: Patrick Leary 
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 10:21 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

…or maybe never had a child in need of life-saving drugs.

In any event, some can pretend this is good business, but we all pay for it in 
taxes for things like Medicare and Medicaid. Nothing happens in isolation. Sort 
of like how the American taxpayers are on the hook for billions in food stamp 
costs and other support because Wal-Mart and the like pay poverty wages. So the 
“capitalism” is really just passing their costs onto taxpayers. Once Big 
Business learned that trick, we were all hosed.

Patrick Leary, Telrad

727-501-3735

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 10:35 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

Damn you guys are brutal!

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Ken Hohhof <af...@kwisp.com> wrote:

  Bah, humbug.

  -Original Message- From: Christopher Tyler
  Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:28 AM
  To: af@afmug.com

  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

  And a free cell phone so they can call the pharmacy.

  -- 
  Christopher Tyler
  MTCRE/MTCNA/MTCTCE/MTCWE
  Total Highspeed Internet Services
  417.851.1107

  - Original Message -
  From: "Jay Weekley" <par...@cyberbroadband.net>
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:27:13 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

  They need clothing and transportation to food, water, shelter and
  medicine.  Or free delivery.

  Josh Luthman wrote:

Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone need
to survive.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum <cc...@wispmon.com
<mailto:cc...@wispmon.com>> wrote:

Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop?
Why are others forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than
congenital defects, and some accidents, most health problems are
due to peoples choices. If our money is to be confiscated to pay
for everyone's "human right", don't we get a say in how they live?
How many other human rights are being trampled on then?

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman
<j...@imaginenetworksllc.com <mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>>
wrote:

Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and
demand?  I'd agree on the whole hotel thing - you don't have
to stay there - but when you have some medical condition (and
while yes AIDS is something you can certainly avoid) I think
as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a basic human right.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340 
Direct: 937-552-2343 
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman
<lewis.berg...@gmail.com <mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that
pure capitalism is the best way demonstrated to date to
innovate and health care or pharma is not exempt. Big
rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These
pharma companies have something like 7 years until the
exclusivity period expires. That can be a pretty short
time to recover investments. This particular case may be a
bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken in
America is simply ludicrous.

I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on
a Friday. Thursday night at the hotel was $159 and Friday
was $269. I don't think that is price gouging. I think it
is a reflection of the simple fact that there are fewer
rooms available on that particular night than are demanded
at $159. The equilibrium was found at $259 where supply
and demand come closer to being equal. At that price I
still witnessed people turned away wanting a room due to
their poor planning. I don't think that is price gouging.
Their hotel was full at $269 a night. T

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

You mean to tell me 200 years ago there wasn't any medicine?  Sure it's far
superior now, but in the 1800s they had basics.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Lewis Bergman 
wrote:

> I have to disagree. 200 years ago there were practically no medicines
> worth talking about yet here we all are. Medicine, while a fantastic
> advancement, does not rise to the level of air, water, food, and shelter.
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:17 AM Josh Luthman 
> wrote:
>
>> Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone need to
>> survive.
>>
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum  wrote:
>>
>>> Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop? Why are
>>> others forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than congenital defects,
>>> and some accidents, most health problems are due to peoples choices. If our
>>> money is to be confiscated to pay for everyone's "human right", don't we
>>> get a say in how they live? How many other human rights are being trampled
>>> on then?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman <
>>> j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:
>>>
>> Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and demand?  I'd
 agree on the whole hotel thing - you don't have to stay there - but when
 you have some medical condition (and while yes AIDS is something you can
 certainly avoid) I think as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a
 basic human right.

>>>

 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

>>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman 
 wrote:

>>> I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that pure capitalism
> is the best way demonstrated to date to innovate and health care or pharma
> is not exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. 
> These
> pharma companies have something like 7 years until the exclusivity period
> expires. That can be a pretty short time to recover investments. This
> particular case may be a bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken
> in America is simply ludicrous.
>
> I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on a Friday.
> Thursday night at the hotel was $159 and Friday was $269. I don't think
> that is price gouging. I think it is a reflection of the simple fact that
> there are fewer rooms available on that particular night than are demanded
> at $159. The equilibrium was found at $259 where supply and demand come
> closer to being equal. At that price I still witnessed people turned away
> wanting a room due to their poor planning. I don't think that is price
> gouging. Their hotel was full at $269 a night. The next day was $159 
> again.
> Since the hotel was full they probably could have been even higher.
>
> I really don't understand what people have such a huge issue with the
> fundamental theory of supply and demand. Yes I understand that it is a
> potentially life saving drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe
> they aren't as good, which is why they are cheaper. When did we stop
> rewarding people for the value they provide? I know this jerk didn't 
> invent
> it but he obviously was willing to reward those who did with a price they
> thought fair. Sales over the next few years will prove if he made a 
> mistake.
>
> Why not force Chuck to sell a unique mount he made for 5% over cost?
> Heck, why not only cover his cost? Why not less than cost and force him to
> provide his great product for the good of the people? There is a reason it
> is named Animal Farm. How many have read this book? While not about
> capitalism it does speak to the kind of central control that skulks below
> the overt argument for "controlling" this type of behavior.
>
> I know people might die. I'll put on my really jerky hat and say "so
> what?". People die every day for less meaning and in greater numbers. 
> There
> is practically a mass suicide movement going on now with texting and
> driving. I don't see where people value there lives or others that much
> anyway when reading a text or email is more important than life itself.
> I guess I am just a big libertarian at heart. Give me the loose
> framework of a "fair market", whatever that is, and let the system fight 
> it
> out. The word isn't fair, not ever going to be fair, stop trying to warp 
> it
> to be that way.
>
> Have fun with that on a Friday and have a Merry Christmas, Happy

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

I guess it boils down to what sort of society one wishes to create. One where I 
got mine, screw the rest of you or one where people do care about the 
betterment of the body politic, the civil evolution of society.

Playing ideological absolutism is a luxury enjoyed by a morally bankrupt 
culture, sort of like D’aesh.

I can’t tell you how much it brings me Christmas cheer to read other Americans 
with values much more in common with the fetid streets of Mogadishu than the 
humane avenues of Copenhagen or Stockholm.

Patrick Leary
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 12:02 PM
To: af <af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

Sure, but you can pretty much guarantee that nobody is going to have a life 
span of much more than a few weeks without food, and it's perfectly possible 
for (some) people to live 100 years without ever touching any sort of medicine.
I don't see how something that doesn't exist until someone puts a lot of time 
and energy into creating it can be considered a human right.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:57 AM, Simon Westlake 
<simon@sonar.software<mailto:simon@sonar.software>> wrote:
Well, technically you don't need food to survive either, just live longer.
On 12/18/2015 10:56 AM, Daniel White wrote:
You don’t need medicine to survive.  You need medicine to live longer.  Humans 
existed well before the concept of medicine was discovered (and even longer 
before antidotal “medicine man” cures became modern medicine).

Thank you,

Daniel White
afmu...@gmail.com<mailto:afmu...@gmail.com>
Cell: +1 (303) 746-3590<tel:%2B1%20%28303%29%20746-3590>
Skype: danieldwhite
Social: LinkedIn<http://www.linkedin.com/in/danielwhite84>: 
Twitter<https://twitter.com/DanielWhite84>

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 8:17 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone need to survive.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum 
<cc...@wispmon.com<mailto:cc...@wispmon.com>> wrote:
Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop? Why are others 
forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than congenital defects, and some 
accidents, most health problems are due to peoples choices. If our money is to 
be confiscated to pay for everyone's "human right", don't we get a say in how 
they live? How many other human rights are being trampled on then?



On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman 
<j...@imaginenetworksllc.com<mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:
Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and demand?  I'd agree on 
the whole hotel thing - you don't have to stay there - but when you have some 
medical condition (and while yes AIDS is something you can certainly avoid) I 
think as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a basic human right.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman 
<lewis.berg...@gmail.com<mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that pure capitalism is the 
best way demonstrated to date to innovate and health care or pharma is not 
exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These pharma 
companies have something like 7 years until the exclusivity period expires. 
That can be a pretty short time to recover investments. This particular case 
may be a bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken in America is simply 
ludicrous.

I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on a Friday. Thursday 
night at the hotel was $159 and Friday was $269. I don't think that is price 
gouging. I think it is a reflection of the simple fact that there are fewer 
rooms available on that particular night than are demanded at $159. The 
equilibrium was found at $259 where supply and demand come closer to being 
equal. At that price I still witnessed people turned away wanting a room due to 
their poor planning. I don't think that is price gouging. Their hotel was full 
at $269 a night. The next day was $159 again. Since the hotel was full they 
probably could have been even higher.

I really don't understand what people have such a huge issue with the 
fundamental theory of supply and demand. Yes I understand that it is a 
potentially life saving drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe they 
aren't as good, which is why they are cheaper. When did we stop rewarding 
people for the value they provide? I know this jerk didn't invent it but he 
obviously was willing to reward those who did with a price they thought fair

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

I understand your premise but Penicillin was discovered, not invented. It
would likely be just as difficult for Christopher Columbus to patent
America. The process to mass produce it is patented. But I do get your
point.
This idiot is only 35 or something. He will likely eventually get a heart
and a mind just like Carnegie did.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:55 AM Patrick Leary <patrick.le...@telrad.com>
wrote:

> The discovery of penicillin literally changed life for all of humanity.
> Imagine if Shkreli had invented it. Divorcing ethics from capitalism is a
> fool’s fairytale. Anyone who justifies it has never read about the history
> of the legal invention of “corporation.”
>
>
>
> -  Patrick
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Luthman
> *Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2015 11:40 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
>
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)
>
>
>
> You mean to tell me 200 years ago there wasn't any medicine?  Sure it's
> far superior now, but in the 1800s they had basics.
>
>
>
>
> Josh Luthman
>
>
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Lewis Bergman <lewis.berg...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I have to disagree. 200 years ago there were practically no medicines
> worth talking about yet here we all are. Medicine, while a fantastic
> advancement, does not rise to the level of air, water, food, and shelter.
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:17 AM Josh Luthman <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>
> wrote:
>
> Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone need to
> survive.
>
>
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum <cc...@wispmon.com> wrote:
>
> Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop? Why are
> others forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than congenital defects,
> and some accidents, most health problems are due to peoples choices. If our
> money is to be confiscated to pay for everyone's "human right", don't we
> get a say in how they live? How many other human rights are being trampled
> on then?
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>
> wrote:
>
> Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and demand?  I'd
> agree on the whole hotel thing - you don't have to stay there - but when
> you have some medical condition (and while yes AIDS is something you can
> certainly avoid) I think as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a
> basic human right.
>
>
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman <lewis.berg...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that pure capitalism is
> the best way demonstrated to date to innovate and health care or pharma is
> not exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These
> pharma companies have something like 7 years until the exclusivity period
> expires. That can be a pretty short time to recover investments. This
> particular case may be a bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken
> in America is simply ludicrous.
>
>
>
> I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on a Friday.
> Thursday night at the hotel was $159 and Friday was $269. I don't think
> that is price gouging. I think it is a reflection of the simple fact that
> there are fewer rooms available on that particular night than are demanded
> at $159. The equilibrium was found at $259 where supply and demand come
> closer to being equal. At that price I still witnessed people turned away
> wanting a room due to their poor planning. I don't think that is price
> gouging. Their hotel was full at $269 a night. The next day was $159 again.
> Since the hotel was full they probably could have been even higher.
>
>
>
> I really don't understand what people have such a huge issue with the
> fundamental theory of supply and demand. Yes I understand that it is a
> potentially life saving drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe
> they aren't as good, which is why they are cheaper. When did we stop
> rewarding people for the value they provide? I know this jerk didn't invent
> it but he obviously was willing to reward those who did with a price they
> thought fair. Sales over the next few years will prove if he made a mistake.
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

The discovery of penicillin literally changed life for all of humanity. Imagine 
if Shkreli had invented it. Divorcing ethics from capitalism is a fool’s 
fairytale. Anyone who justifies it has never read about the history of the 
legal invention of “corporation.”


-  Patrick

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 11:40 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

You mean to tell me 200 years ago there wasn't any medicine?  Sure it's far 
superior now, but in the 1800s they had basics.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Lewis Bergman 
<lewis.berg...@gmail.com<mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I have to disagree. 200 years ago there were practically no medicines worth 
talking about yet here we all are. Medicine, while a fantastic advancement, 
does not rise to the level of air, water, food, and shelter.
On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:17 AM Josh Luthman 
<j...@imaginenetworksllc.com<mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:
Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone need to survive.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum 
<cc...@wispmon.com<mailto:cc...@wispmon.com>> wrote:
Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop? Why are others 
forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than congenital defects, and some 
accidents, most health problems are due to peoples choices. If our money is to 
be confiscated to pay for everyone's "human right", don't we get a say in how 
they live? How many other human rights are being trampled on then?


On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman 
<j...@imaginenetworksllc.com<mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:
Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and demand?  I'd agree on 
the whole hotel thing - you don't have to stay there - but when you have some 
medical condition (and while yes AIDS is something you can certainly avoid) I 
think as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a basic human right.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373
On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman 
<lewis.berg...@gmail.com<mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that pure capitalism is the 
best way demonstrated to date to innovate and health care or pharma is not 
exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These pharma 
companies have something like 7 years until the exclusivity period expires. 
That can be a pretty short time to recover investments. This particular case 
may be a bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken in America is simply 
ludicrous.

I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on a Friday. Thursday 
night at the hotel was $159 and Friday was $269. I don't think that is price 
gouging. I think it is a reflection of the simple fact that there are fewer 
rooms available on that particular night than are demanded at $159. The 
equilibrium was found at $259 where supply and demand come closer to being 
equal. At that price I still witnessed people turned away wanting a room due to 
their poor planning. I don't think that is price gouging. Their hotel was full 
at $269 a night. The next day was $159 again. Since the hotel was full they 
probably could have been even higher.

I really don't understand what people have such a huge issue with the 
fundamental theory of supply and demand. Yes I understand that it is a 
potentially life saving drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe they 
aren't as good, which is why they are cheaper. When did we stop rewarding 
people for the value they provide? I know this jerk didn't invent it but he 
obviously was willing to reward those who did with a price they thought fair. 
Sales over the next few years will prove if he made a mistake.

Why not force Chuck to sell a unique mount he made for 5% over cost? Heck, why 
not only cover his cost? Why not less than cost and force him to provide his 
great product for the good of the people? There is a reason it is named Animal 
Farm. How many have read this book? While not about capitalism it does speak to 
the kind of central control that skulks below the overt argument for 
"controlling" this type of behavior.

I know people might die. I'll put on my really jerky hat and say "so what?". 
People die every day for less meaning and in greater numbers. There is 
practically a mass suicide movement going on now with texting and driving. I 
don't see where people value there lives or others that much anyway when 
reading a text or email is more important than life itself.
I guess I am

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

You assume I haven't when in fact I was part of the socialist healthcare
system that some want to force everyone onto when I did need care the
government was incapable of providing.

My son was asthmatic and was in the hospital 6 times in one month. The
military health system could not, or would not, care for him. Instead, they
preferred to accuse my wife of mistreating him. What saved him was the
PRIVATE health care system. We drove him several times to a very good
PRIVATE hospital 4 hours away to get the care the government could not or
would not provide even though my son was entitled to it. I was happy to pay
for that our of my own pocket.

Why? Not because they were trying to be bad at their job, they just were
incompetent, untrained, and unwilling to do much about it. Without the
private health care system and a doctor who sacrificed a great amount of
his time for the reward of wealth he thought would be his reward I may have
lost him.

Maybe your the one who has never needed a life saving treatment or
medicine. I have been there and it keenly illustrated that without the
private sector (capitalism) and the incentive it provides a life may have
been lost. I was willing to pay what it took to get my son the help he
needed.
Take that same case where there was no private sector. No son. I think I'll
take my chances with the private sector I may be able to afford than the
government sector that can't provide what i need at any cost.

On your corporate welfare point I agree. There should be no medicare,
medicaid, or food stamps so there is no passing the buck. What I mean by
that is there should be no supplement that is a permanent entitlement.
Everyone has hard times and needs a bit of help now and again. The system
we have set up to permanently shackle the poor to entitlements is a
disservice to everyone including them. If we did not have those programs
the Wal-Marts of the US would have to either suffer the massive turnover as
employees gained an understanding of what that wage really meant or up the
anti.

There was a time when you needed help you went to family and if not that,
church. Even if you didn't believe what the guy handing out bread and soup
believed, he had bread and soup. Although I must admit, from my limited
experience in Wal-Mart it appears that they do employ the otherwise
unemployable so there is that.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:21 AM Patrick Leary <patrick.le...@telrad.com>
wrote:

> …or maybe never had a child in need of life-saving drugs.
>
>
>
> In any event, some can pretend this is good business, but we all pay for
> it in taxes for things like Medicare and Medicaid. Nothing happens in
> isolation. Sort of like how the American taxpayers are on the hook for
> billions in food stamp costs and other support because Wal-Mart and the
> like pay poverty wages. So the “capitalism” is really just passing their
> costs onto taxpayers. Once Big Business learned that trick, we were all
> hosed.
>
>
>
> Patrick Leary, Telrad
>
> 727-501-3735
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Luthman
> *Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2015 10:35 AM
>
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)
>
>
>
> Damn you guys are brutal!
>
>
>
>
> Josh Luthman
>
>
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Ken Hohhof <af...@kwisp.com> wrote:
>
> Bah, humbug.
>
> -Original Message- From: Christopher Tyler
>
> Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:28 AM
> To: af@afmug.com
>
>
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)
>
> And a free cell phone so they can call the pharmacy.
>
> --
> Christopher Tyler
> MTCRE/MTCNA/MTCTCE/MTCWE
> Total Highspeed Internet Services
> 417.851.1107
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jay Weekley" <par...@cyberbroadband.net>
> To: af@afmug.com
>
> Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:27:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)
>
> They need clothing and transportation to food, water, shelter and
> medicine.  Or free delivery.
>
> Josh Luthman wrote:
>
> Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone need
> to survive.
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum <cc...@wispmon.com
>
> <mailto:cc...@wispmon.com>> wrote:
>
> Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop?
> Why are others forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than
> congenital defects, and some accidents, most healt

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

In places like Canada and Germany, where healthcare is universal and paid 
through common burden via taxes, the doctors are NOT government employees. You 
take one episodic experience (a sincere and painful one for your family to be 
sure) with a failed system and use that to indict as bad and inefficient 
universal systems. In fact, the example you cite bolsters my argument, as the 
VA is run as it is because our system sucks where agencies like the VA are 
chronically underfunded and understaffed.

The idea that private care somehow ceases to exist in a universal system is 
simply false. This is a key mistake some in our culture have been taught by 
ideologues bent on obscuring fact. People who advocate for “single payer” (and 
those who understand it factually) know the only real argument is how things 
are paid for, not how services are delivered. Additionally, in every place 
where universal care exists, there also exists elective choices that can be 
accessed outside the basic system.

Patrick

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 12:21 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

You assume I haven't when in fact I was part of the socialist healthcare system 
that some want to force everyone onto when I did need care the government was 
incapable of providing.

My son was asthmatic and was in the hospital 6 times in one month. The military 
health system could not, or would not, care for him. Instead, they preferred to 
accuse my wife of mistreating him. What saved him was the PRIVATE health care 
system. We drove him several times to a very good PRIVATE hospital 4 hours away 
to get the care the government could not or would not provide even though my 
son was entitled to it. I was happy to pay for that our of my own pocket.

Why? Not because they were trying to be bad at their job, they just were 
incompetent, untrained, and unwilling to do much about it. Without the private 
health care system and a doctor who sacrificed a great amount of his time for 
the reward of wealth he thought would be his reward I may have lost him.

Maybe your the one who has never needed a life saving treatment or medicine. I 
have been there and it keenly illustrated that without the private sector 
(capitalism) and the incentive it provides a life may have been lost. I was 
willing to pay what it took to get my son the help he needed.
Take that same case where there was no private sector. No son. I think I'll 
take my chances with the private sector I may be able to afford than the 
government sector that can't provide what i need at any cost.

On your corporate welfare point I agree. There should be no medicare, medicaid, 
or food stamps so there is no passing the buck. What I mean by that is there 
should be no supplement that is a permanent entitlement. Everyone has hard 
times and needs a bit of help now and again. The system we have set up to 
permanently shackle the poor to entitlements is a disservice to everyone 
including them. If we did not have those programs the Wal-Marts of the US would 
have to either suffer the massive turnover as employees gained an understanding 
of what that wage really meant or up the anti.

There was a time when you needed help you went to family and if not that, 
church. Even if you didn't believe what the guy handing out bread and soup 
believed, he had bread and soup. Although I must admit, from my limited 
experience in Wal-Mart it appears that they do employ the otherwise 
unemployable so there is that.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:21 AM Patrick Leary 
<patrick.le...@telrad.com<mailto:patrick.le...@telrad.com>> wrote:
…or maybe never had a child in need of life-saving drugs.

In any event, some can pretend this is good business, but we all pay for it in 
taxes for things like Medicare and Medicaid. Nothing happens in isolation. Sort 
of like how the American taxpayers are on the hook for billions in food stamp 
costs and other support because Wal-Mart and the like pay poverty wages. So the 
“capitalism” is really just passing their costs onto taxpayers. Once Big 
Business learned that trick, we were all hosed.

Patrick Leary, Telrad
727-501-3735

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com>] On Behalf 
Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 10:35 AM

To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

Damn you guys are brutal!


Josh Luthman

Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Ken Hohhof 
<af...@kwisp.com<mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:
Bah, humbug.

-Original Message- From: Christopher Tyler
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:28 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)
And a free cell phone so they can call the pharmacy

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

…clearly I am having too much fun with this thread!

Merry Christmas to all. I do not, truly, doubt the hearts of those in the WISP 
community. After 16 years in this business, I know well the character of the 
men and women who call themselves WISPs and I love you all for it.

Patrick Leary, Telrad
727-501-3735

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 1:01 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

My sincere hope – and it is a vengeful wish – is that he learns this humility 
pondering his soul as he paces his 8x6 cell in sharting trepidation upon 
realizing he is such a cute little thing!

Patrick Leary


From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 12:56 PM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

I understand your premise but Penicillin was discovered, not invented. It would 
likely be just as difficult for Christopher Columbus to patent America. The 
process to mass produce it is patented. But I do get your point.
This idiot is only 35 or something. He will likely eventually get a heart and a 
mind just like Carnegie did.
On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:55 AM Patrick Leary 
<patrick.le...@telrad.com<mailto:patrick.le...@telrad.com>> wrote:
The discovery of penicillin literally changed life for all of humanity. Imagine 
if Shkreli had invented it. Divorcing ethics from capitalism is a fool’s 
fairytale. Anyone who justifies it has never read about the history of the 
legal invention of “corporation.”


-  Patrick

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com>] On Behalf 
Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 11:40 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

You mean to tell me 200 years ago there wasn't any medicine?  Sure it's far 
superior now, but in the 1800s they had basics.


Josh Luthman

Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Lewis Bergman 
<lewis.berg...@gmail.com<mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I have to disagree. 200 years ago there were practically no medicines worth 
talking about yet here we all are. Medicine, while a fantastic advancement, 
does not rise to the level of air, water, food, and shelter.
On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:17 AM Josh Luthman 
<j...@imaginenetworksllc.com<mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:
Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone need to survive.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum 
<cc...@wispmon.com<mailto:cc...@wispmon.com>> wrote:
Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop? Why are others 
forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than congenital defects, and some 
accidents, most health problems are due to peoples choices. If our money is to 
be confiscated to pay for everyone's "human right", don't we get a say in how 
they live? How many other human rights are being trampled on then?


On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman 
<j...@imaginenetworksllc.com<mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:
Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and demand?  I'd agree on 
the whole hotel thing - you don't have to stay there - but when you have some 
medical condition (and while yes AIDS is something you can certainly avoid) I 
think as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a basic human right.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373
On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman 
<lewis.berg...@gmail.com<mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that pure capitalism is the 
best way demonstrated to date to innovate and health care or pharma is not 
exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These pharma 
companies have something like 7 years until the exclusivity period expires. 
That can be a pretty short time to recover investments. This particular case 
may be a bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken in America is simply 
ludicrous.

I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on a Friday. Thursday 
night at the hotel was $159 and Friday was $269. I don't think that is price 
gouging. I think it is a reflection of the simple fact that there are fewer 
rooms available on that particular night than are demanded at $159. The 
equilibrium was found at $259 where supply and demand come closer to being 
equal. At that price I still witnessed people turned away wanting a room due to 
their poor planning. I don't think that is price gouging. Their hotel was full 
at $269 a night.

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

…or maybe never had a child in need of life-saving drugs.

In any event, some can pretend this is good business, but we all pay for it in 
taxes for things like Medicare and Medicaid. Nothing happens in isolation. Sort 
of like how the American taxpayers are on the hook for billions in food stamp 
costs and other support because Wal-Mart and the like pay poverty wages. So the 
“capitalism” is really just passing their costs onto taxpayers. Once Big 
Business learned that trick, we were all hosed.

Patrick Leary, Telrad
727-501-3735

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 10:35 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

Damn you guys are brutal!


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:33 AM, Ken Hohhof 
<af...@kwisp.com<mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:
Bah, humbug.

-Original Message- From: Christopher Tyler
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:28 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

And a free cell phone so they can call the pharmacy.

--
Christopher Tyler
MTCRE/MTCNA/MTCTCE/MTCWE
Total Highspeed Internet Services
417.851.1107

- Original Message -
From: "Jay Weekley" 
<par...@cyberbroadband.net<mailto:par...@cyberbroadband.net>>
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:27:13 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

They need clothing and transportation to food, water, shelter and
medicine.  Or free delivery.

Josh Luthman wrote:
Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone need
to survive.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum 
<cc...@wispmon.com<mailto:cc...@wispmon.com>
<mailto:cc...@wispmon.com<mailto:cc...@wispmon.com>>> wrote:

Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop?
Why are others forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than
congenital defects, and some accidents, most health problems are
due to peoples choices. If our money is to be confiscated to pay
for everyone's "human right", don't we get a say in how they live?
How many other human rights are being trampled on then?



On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman
<j...@imaginenetworksllc.com<mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> 
<mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com<mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>>>
wrote:

Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and
demand?  I'd agree on the whole hotel thing - you don't have
to stay there - but when you have some medical condition (and
while yes AIDS is something you can certainly avoid) I think
as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a basic human right.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340 
<tel:937-552-2340>
Direct: 937-552-2343 
<tel:937-552-2343>
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman
<lewis.berg...@gmail.com<mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com> 
<mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com<mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>>> wrote:

I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that
pure capitalism is the best way demonstrated to date to
innovate and health care or pharma is not exempt. Big
rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These
pharma companies have something like 7 years until the
exclusivity period expires. That can be a pretty short
time to recover investments. This particular case may be a
bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken in
America is simply ludicrous.

I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on
a Friday. Thursday night at the hotel was $159 and Friday
was $269. I don't think that is price gouging. I think it
is a reflection of the simple fact that there are fewer
rooms available on that particular night than are demanded
at $159. The equilibrium was found at $259 where supply
and demand come closer to being equal. At that price I
still witnessed people turned away wanting a room due to
their poor planning. I don't think that is price gouging.
Their hotel was full at $269 a night. The next day was
$159 again. Since the hotel was full they probably could
have been even higher.

I really don't understand what people have such a huge
issue with the fundamental theory of supply and demand.

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

2015-12-18 Thread Mathew Howard

Sure, they had leeches... leeches are good for everything.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> You mean to tell me 200 years ago there wasn't any medicine?  Sure it's
> far superior now, but in the 1800s they had basics.
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Lewis Bergman 
> wrote:
>
>> I have to disagree. 200 years ago there were practically no medicines
>> worth talking about yet here we all are. Medicine, while a fantastic
>> advancement, does not rise to the level of air, water, food, and shelter.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:17 AM Josh Luthman 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone need to
>>> survive.
>>>
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop? Why are
 others forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than congenital defects,
 and some accidents, most health problems are due to peoples choices. If our
 money is to be confiscated to pay for everyone's "human right", don't we
 get a say in how they live? How many other human rights are being trampled
 on then?


 On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman <
 j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:

>>> Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and demand?  I'd
> agree on the whole hotel thing - you don't have to stay there - but when
> you have some medical condition (and while yes AIDS is something you can
> certainly avoid) I think as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a
> basic human right.
>

>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
 On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman  > wrote:
>
 I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that pure capitalism
>> is the best way demonstrated to date to innovate and health care or 
>> pharma
>> is not exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. 
>> These
>> pharma companies have something like 7 years until the exclusivity period
>> expires. That can be a pretty short time to recover investments. This
>> particular case may be a bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken
>> in America is simply ludicrous.
>>
>> I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on a Friday.
>> Thursday night at the hotel was $159 and Friday was $269. I don't think
>> that is price gouging. I think it is a reflection of the simple fact that
>> there are fewer rooms available on that particular night than are 
>> demanded
>> at $159. The equilibrium was found at $259 where supply and demand come
>> closer to being equal. At that price I still witnessed people turned away
>> wanting a room due to their poor planning. I don't think that is price
>> gouging. Their hotel was full at $269 a night. The next day was $159 
>> again.
>> Since the hotel was full they probably could have been even higher.
>>
>> I really don't understand what people have such a huge issue with the
>> fundamental theory of supply and demand. Yes I understand that it is a
>> potentially life saving drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe
>> they aren't as good, which is why they are cheaper. When did we stop
>> rewarding people for the value they provide? I know this jerk didn't 
>> invent
>> it but he obviously was willing to reward those who did with a price they
>> thought fair. Sales over the next few years will prove if he made a 
>> mistake.
>>
>> Why not force Chuck to sell a unique mount he made for 5% over cost?
>> Heck, why not only cover his cost? Why not less than cost and force him 
>> to
>> provide his great product for the good of the people? There is a reason 
>> it
>> is named Animal Farm. How many have read this book? While not about
>> capitalism it does speak to the kind of central control that skulks below
>> the overt argument for "controlling" this type of behavior.
>>
>> I know people might die. I'll put on my really jerky hat and say "so
>> what?". People die every day for less meaning and in greater numbers. 
>> There
>> is practically a mass suicide movement going on now with texting and
>> driving. I don't see where people value there lives or others that much
>> anyway when reading a text or email is more important than life itself.
>> I guess I am just a big libertarian at

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

And I would be 100% in support of the government handing out any treatment
or medicine that was available 200 years ago as a baic human right. Heck,
I'll even through in Aspirin, it was invented until 1897.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:40 AM Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> You mean to tell me 200 years ago there wasn't any medicine?  Sure it's
> far superior now, but in the 1800s they had basics.
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Lewis Bergman 
> wrote:
>
>> I have to disagree. 200 years ago there were practically no medicines
>> worth talking about yet here we all are. Medicine, while a fantastic
>> advancement, does not rise to the level of air, water, food, and shelter.
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:17 AM Josh Luthman 
>> wrote:
>>
> Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone need to
>>> survive.
>>>
>>>
>>> Josh Luthman
>>> Office: 937-552-2340
>>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>>> 1100 Wayne St
>>> Suite 1337
>>> Troy, OH 45373
>>>
>>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop? Why are
 others forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than congenital defects,
 and some accidents, most health problems are due to peoples choices. If our
 money is to be confiscated to pay for everyone's "human right", don't we
 get a say in how they live? How many other human rights are being trampled
 on then?


 On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman <
 j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote:

>>> Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and demand?  I'd
> agree on the whole hotel thing - you don't have to stay there - but when
> you have some medical condition (and while yes AIDS is something you can
> certainly avoid) I think as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a
> basic human right.
>

>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
 On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman  > wrote:
>
 I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that pure capitalism
>> is the best way demonstrated to date to innovate and health care or 
>> pharma
>> is not exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. 
>> These
>> pharma companies have something like 7 years until the exclusivity period
>> expires. That can be a pretty short time to recover investments. This
>> particular case may be a bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken
>> in America is simply ludicrous.
>>
>> I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on a Friday.
>> Thursday night at the hotel was $159 and Friday was $269. I don't think
>> that is price gouging. I think it is a reflection of the simple fact that
>> there are fewer rooms available on that particular night than are 
>> demanded
>> at $159. The equilibrium was found at $259 where supply and demand come
>> closer to being equal. At that price I still witnessed people turned away
>> wanting a room due to their poor planning. I don't think that is price
>> gouging. Their hotel was full at $269 a night. The next day was $159 
>> again.
>> Since the hotel was full they probably could have been even higher.
>>
>> I really don't understand what people have such a huge issue with the
>> fundamental theory of supply and demand. Yes I understand that it is a
>> potentially life saving drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe
>> they aren't as good, which is why they are cheaper. When did we stop
>> rewarding people for the value they provide? I know this jerk didn't 
>> invent
>> it but he obviously was willing to reward those who did with a price they
>> thought fair. Sales over the next few years will prove if he made a 
>> mistake.
>>
>> Why not force Chuck to sell a unique mount he made for 5% over cost?
>> Heck, why not only cover his cost? Why not less than cost and force him 
>> to
>> provide his great product for the good of the people? There is a reason 
>> it
>> is named Animal Farm. How many have read this book? While not about
>> capitalism it does speak to the kind of central control that skulks below
>> the overt argument for "controlling" this type of behavior.
>>
>> I know people might die. I'll put on my really jerky hat and say "so
>> what?". People die every day for less meaning and in greater numbers. 
>> There
>> is practically a mass suicide movement going on now with texting and
>> driving. I don't see where people value there lives or

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

2015-12-18 Thread Bill Prince

There are dozens, maybe hundreds or thousands of advancements in 
medicine that have moved the average life expectancy from ~~ 40 years 
200 years ago to ~~76 years today.


The difference is many different advances in medicine, which all cost money.

So. If you have money, you can expect to live ~~ 76 years.

If you don't have money, maybe it's closer to 40 years.

Is that fair?

Your answer to that question probably depends on how much money you have.

bp
<part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com>

On 12/18/2015 8:55 AM, Patrick Leary wrote:


The discovery of penicillin literally changed life for all of 
humanity. Imagine if Shkreli had invented it. Divorcing ethics from 
capitalism is a fool’s fairytale. Anyone who justifies it has never 
read about the history of the legal invention of “corporation.”


-Patrick

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Luthman
*Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2015 11:40 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

You mean to tell me 200 years ago there wasn't any medicine?  Sure 
it's far superior now, but in the 1800s they had basics.



Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Lewis Bergman 
<lewis.berg...@gmail.com <mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I have to disagree. 200 years ago there were practically no
medicines worth talking about yet here we all are. Medicine, while
a fantastic advancement, does not rise to the level of air, water,
food, and shelter.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:17 AM Josh Luthman
<j...@imaginenetworksllc.com <mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>>
wrote:

Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and
everyone need to survive.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340 
Direct: 937-552-2343 
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum
<cc...@wispmon.com <mailto:cc...@wispmon.com>> wrote:

Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it
stop? Why are others forced to pay for peoples bad habits?
Other than congenital defects, and some accidents, most
health problems are due to peoples choices. If our money
is to be confiscated to pay for everyone's "human right",
don't we get a say in how they live? How many other human
rights are being trampled on then?

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman
<j...@imaginenetworksllc.com
<mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:

Should medicine really be part of a system of supply
and demand? I'd agree on the whole hotel thing - you
don't have to stay there - but when you have some
medical condition (and while yes AIDS is something you
can certainly avoid) I think as a society and a
culture we shouldn't deny a basic human right.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340 
Direct: 937-552-2343 
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman
<lewis.berg...@gmail.com
<mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains
that pure capitalism is the best way demonstrated
to date to innovate and health care or pharma is
not exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort
yielding big results. These pharma companies have
something like 7 years until the exclusivity
period expires. That can be a pretty short time to
recover investments. This particular case may be a
bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken
in America is simply ludicrous.

I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas
Tech on a Friday. Thursday night at the hotel was
$159 and Friday was $269. I don't think that is
price gouging. I think it is a reflection of the
simple fact that there are fewer rooms available
on that particular night than are demanded at
$159. The equilibrium was found at $259 where
supply and demand come closer to being equal. At
that price I still witnessed people turned away
wanting a room due to their poor planning. I don't
think that is price gouging. Their hotel was full
at $269 a nigh

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

2015-12-18 Thread Rory McCann

I wish I could find the article, but it basically said that the reason
there aren't other mfgr's of the drug has to do with the costs of
getting it FDA approved. Since the average person who needs the drug
only uses a few doses, it's very hard to reach ROI at $13/pill or
whatever it was. The fact that he drove the price up 5000% was just him
being an asshole and trying to make a bunch of money off of his purchase.

At one point, another company did make a non-FDA approved generic they
were selling for like $1/pill, but you couldn't get it through normal
medical channels or something (it classified as one of those
"experimental" drugs even though it was the same formula).

Long and the short of it is that regardless of your views on capitalism
and supply and demand, this guy is just a douche bag.

Rory McCann
MKAP Technology Solutions
Web: www.mkap.net

On 12/18/2015 10:23 AM, Jay Weekley wrote:
I have to ask myself why a drug that is 69 years old is manufactured
by one entity in the US and other global manufacturers don't have
access to our market. More research would probably give me the answer
or a bunch of conspiracy theories.

Lewis Bergman wrote:
I loophole created by the government from the regulatory environment
the government setup which now needs to be fixed by Whom? The
government. Not saying there should be no regulation of drugs. I
don't want to go back to the tapeworm diet pill. But the pharma
industry is an excellent example of why everything the government
gets involved in will eventually be so broken it needs to be trashed
and restarted from scratch.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:06 AM Ken Hohhof <af...@kwisp.com
<mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:

The guy isn’t “brash”, any of the adjectives I think of are
inappropriate for a public forum.
Read this interview, or just skip to the end:
http://hiphopdx.com/interviews/id.2825/title.martin-shkreli-plans-to-bail-out-bobby-shmurda
Or watch his live stream.
As far as capitalism, the approach is to find something that is
inexpensive to make and has been around forever and there is only
one supplier because there isn’t enough demand for multiple
suppliers. So you buy that supplier and jack the price up to
ridiculous levels until a competitor can go through getting
government approval to compete, which can take a year or more.
Meanwhile, you make a bazillion percent profit, because of a

temporary market failure.
That isn’t really capitalism. It’s exploiting a loophole.
Capitalism assumes an efficient market, where competition drives

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

2015-12-18 Thread Simon Westlake

My great grandmother turned 100 this year. And I am not actually sure I 
have ever seen the woman eat.


I suppose it all depends on perspective, I'm not sure the fact that 
something is expensive to do should dictate what human rights are. It is 
more expensive to have a jury trial than to just execute anyone that 
breaks the law, but I doubt anyone would use that as a way to argue for 
abolishing the legal system.


I'm not necessarily arguing one side or the other - I don't think the 
business practices of Martin Shkreli are defensible in any way, but I 
realize you're not going to have complex drugs for small quantities of 
people created without some kind of motive, unless the government is 
going to be in the business of drug creation and we're all taxed to do it.


All that being said, I do think the American medical system is pretty 
badly broken at this point. I'm also not sure there's a good fix that 
wouldn't cause massive problems, so I just grin and bear it.


On 12/18/2015 11:02 AM, Mathew Howard wrote:
Sure, but you can pretty much guarantee that nobody is going to have a 
life span of much more than a few weeks without food, and it's 
perfectly possible for (some) people to live 100 years without ever 
touching any sort of medicine.


I don't see how something that doesn't exist until someone puts a lot 
of time and energy into creating it can be considered a human right.


On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:57 AM, Simon Westlake <simon@sonar.software 
<mailto:simon@sonar.software>> wrote:


Well, technically you don't need food to survive either, just live
longer.

On 12/18/2015 10:56 AM, Daniel White wrote:


You don’t need medicine to survive.  You need medicine to live
longer.  Humans existed well before the concept of medicine was
discovered (and even longer before antidotal “medicine man” cures
became modern medicine).

Thank you,

Daniel White

<mailto:afmu...@gmail.com>afmu...@gmail.com
<mailto:afmu...@gmail.com>__

Cell: +1 (303) 746-3590 <tel:%2B1%20%28303%29%20746-3590>

Skype: danieldwhite
Social: LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/danielwhite84>:
Twitter <https://twitter.com/DanielWhite84>

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Luthman
*Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2015 8:17 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone
need to survive.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340 
Direct: 937-552-2343 
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum <cc...@wispmon.com
<mailto:cc...@wispmon.com>> wrote:

Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it
stop? Why are others forced to pay for peoples bad habits?
Other than congenital defects, and some accidents, most
health problems are due to peoples choices. If our money is
to be confiscated to pay for everyone's "human right", don't
we get a say in how they live? How many other human rights
are being trampled on then?

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman
<j...@imaginenetworksllc.com
<mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:

Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and
demand? I'd agree on the whole hotel thing - you don't
have to stay there - but when you have some medical
condition (and while yes AIDS is something you can
certainly avoid) I think as a society and a culture we
shouldn't deny a basic human right.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340 
Direct: 937-552-2343 
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman
<lewis.berg...@gmail.com
<mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains
that pure capitalism is the best way demonstrated to
date to innovate and health care or pharma is not
exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort yielding big
results. These pharma companies have something like 7
years until the exclusivity period expires. That can
be a pretty short time to recover investments. This
particular case may be a bit extreme but to say that
capitalism is broken in America is simply ludicrous.

I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas
Tech on a Friday. Thursday night at the hotel was
$159 and Friday was $269. I don't think that is price
gouging. I th

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

2015-12-18 Thread Simon Westlake


Well, technically you don't need food to survive either, just live longer.

On 12/18/2015 10:56 AM, Daniel White wrote:


You don’t need medicine to survive.  You need medicine to live 
longer.  Humans existed well before the concept of medicine was 
discovered (and even longer before antidotal “medicine man” cures 
became modern medicine).


Thank you,

Daniel White

afmu...@gmail.com <mailto:afmu...@gmail.com>__

Cell: +1 (303) 746-3590

Skype: danieldwhite
Social: LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/danielwhite84>: Twitter 
<https://twitter.com/DanielWhite84>


*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Luthman
*Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2015 8:17 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone need 
to survive.



Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum <cc...@wispmon.com 
<mailto:cc...@wispmon.com>> wrote:


Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop?
Why are others forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than
congenital defects, and some accidents, most health problems are
due to peoples choices. If our money is to be confiscated to pay
for everyone's "human right", don't we get a say in how they live?
How many other human rights are being trampled on then?

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman
<j...@imaginenetworksllc.com <mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>>
wrote:

Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and
demand?  I'd agree on the whole hotel thing - you don't have
to stay there - but when you have some medical condition (and
while yes AIDS is something you can certainly avoid) I think
as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a basic human right.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340 
Direct: 937-552-2343 
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman
<lewis.berg...@gmail.com <mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that
pure capitalism is the best way demonstrated to date to
innovate and health care or pharma is not exempt. Big
rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These
pharma companies have something like 7 years until the
exclusivity period expires. That can be a pretty short
time to recover investments. This particular case may be a
bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken in
America is simply ludicrous.

I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on
a Friday. Thursday night at the hotel was $159 and Friday
was $269. I don't think that is price gouging. I think it
is a reflection of the simple fact that there are fewer
rooms available on that particular night than are demanded
at $159. The equilibrium was found at $259 where supply
and demand come closer to being equal. At that price I
still witnessed people turned away wanting a room due to
their poor planning. I don't think that is price gouging.
Their hotel was full at $269 a night. The next day was
$159 again. Since the hotel was full they probably could
have been even higher.

I really don't understand what people have such a huge
issue with the fundamental theory of supply and demand.
Yes I understand that it is a potentially life saving
drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe they
aren't as good, which is why they are cheaper. When did we
stop rewarding people for the value they provide? I know
this jerk didn't invent it but he obviously was willing to
reward those who did with a price they thought fair. Sales
over the next few years will prove if he made a mistake.

Why not force Chuck to sell a unique mount he made for 5%
over cost? Heck, why not only cover his cost? Why not less
than cost and force him to provide his great product for
the good of the people? There is a reason it is named
Animal Farm. How many have read this book? While not about
capitalism it does speak to the kind of central control
that skulks below the overt argument for "controlling"
this type of behavior.

I know people might die. I'll put on my really jerky hat
and say "so what?". People die every day for less meaning
and in greater numbers. There is prac

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)


A patent on a common mold would be interesting.

Patrick Leary wrote:


The discovery of penicillin literally changed life for all of 
humanity. Imagine if Shkreli had invented it. Divorcing ethics from 
capitalism is a fool’s fairytale. Anyone who justifies it has never 
read about the history of the legal invention of “corporation.”


-Patrick

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Luthman
*Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2015 11:40 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

You mean to tell me 200 years ago there wasn't any medicine?  Sure 
it's far superior now, but in the 1800s they had basics.



Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Lewis Bergman 
<lewis.berg...@gmail.com <mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I have to disagree. 200 years ago there were practically no
medicines worth talking about yet here we all are. Medicine, while
a fantastic advancement, does not rise to the level of air, water,
food, and shelter.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:17 AM Josh Luthman
<j...@imaginenetworksllc.com <mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>>
wrote:

Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and
everyone need to survive.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340 
Direct: 937-552-2343 
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum
<cc...@wispmon.com <mailto:cc...@wispmon.com>> wrote:

Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it
stop? Why are others forced to pay for peoples bad habits?
Other than congenital defects, and some accidents, most
health problems are due to peoples choices. If our money
is to be confiscated to pay for everyone's "human right",
don't we get a say in how they live? How many other human
rights are being trampled on then?

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman
<j...@imaginenetworksllc.com
<mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:

Should medicine really be part of a system of supply
and demand? I'd agree on the whole hotel thing - you
don't have to stay there - but when you have some
medical condition (and while yes AIDS is something you
can certainly avoid) I think as a society and a
culture we shouldn't deny a basic human right.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340 
Direct: 937-552-2343 
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman
<lewis.berg...@gmail.com
<mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains
that pure capitalism is the best way demonstrated
to date to innovate and health care or pharma is
not exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort
yielding big results. These pharma companies have
something like 7 years until the exclusivity
period expires. That can be a pretty short time to
recover investments. This particular case may be a
bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken
in America is simply ludicrous.

I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas
Tech on a Friday. Thursday night at the hotel was
$159 and Friday was $269. I don't think that is
price gouging. I think it is a reflection of the
simple fact that there are fewer rooms available
on that particular night than are demanded at
$159. The equilibrium was found at $259 where
supply and demand come closer to being equal. At
that price I still witnessed people turned away
wanting a room due to their poor planning. I don't
think that is price gouging. Their hotel was full
at $269 a night. The next day was $159 again.
Since the hotel was full they probably could have
been even higher.

I really don't understand what people have such a
huge issue with the fundamental theory of supply
and demand. Yes I understand that it is a
potentially life saving drug. There are other
cheaper treatments. Maybe they aren't as goo

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

2015-12-18 Thread Chuck McCown

And why is the design not public domain?

-Original Message- 
From: Jay Weekley

Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:23 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

I have to ask myself why a drug that is 69 years old is manufactured by
one entity in the US and other global manufacturers don't have access to
our market.  More research would probably give me the answer or a bunch
of conspiracy theories.

Lewis Bergman wrote:
I loophole created by the government from the regulatory environment the 
government setup which now needs to be fixed by Whom? The government. Not 
saying there should be no regulation of drugs. I don't want to go back to 
the tapeworm diet pill. But the pharma industry is an excellent example of 
why everything the government gets involved in will eventually be so 
broken it needs to be trashed and restarted from scratch.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:06 AM Ken Hohhof <af...@kwisp.com 
<mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:

The guy isn’t “brash”, any of the adjectives I think of are
inappropriate for a public forum.
Read this interview, or just skip to the end:

http://hiphopdx.com/interviews/id.2825/title.martin-shkreli-plans-to-bail-out-bobby-shmurda
Or watch his live stream.
As far as capitalism, the approach is to find something that is
inexpensive to make and has been around forever and there is only
one supplier because there isn’t enough demand for multiple
suppliers.  So you buy that supplier and jack the price up to
ridiculous levels until a competitor can go through getting
government approval to compete, which can take a year or more. 
Meanwhile, you make a bazillion percent profit, because of a

temporary market failure.
That isn’t really capitalism.  It’s exploiting a loophole. Capitalism 
assumes an efficient market, where competition drives

prices down to cost plus a reasonable profit.  The pharma market
is different for two reasons.  First, there is a lengthy
government approval process.  Second, the payer is usually an
insurance company, pharmacy benefit manager, or Medicare.
*From:* Lewis Bergman <mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>
*Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2015 8:47 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
    *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)
I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that pure
capitalism is the best way demonstrated to date to innovate and
health care or pharma is not exempt. Big rewards encourage big
effort yielding big results. These pharma companies have something
like 7 years until the exclusivity period expires. That can be a
pretty short time to recover investments. This particular case may
be a bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken in America
is simply ludicrous.
I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on a
Friday. Thursday night at the hotel was $159 and Friday was $269.
I don't think that is price gouging. I think it is a reflection of
the simple fact that there are fewer rooms available on that
particular night than are demanded at $159. The equilibrium was
found at $259 where supply and demand come closer to being equal.
At that price I still witnessed people turned away wanting a room
due to their poor planning. I don't think that is price gouging.
Their hotel was full at $269 a night. The next day was $159 again.
Since the hotel was full they probably could have been even higher.
I really don't understand what people have such a huge issue with
the fundamental theory of supply and demand. Yes I understand that
it is a potentially life saving drug. There are other cheaper
treatments. Maybe they aren't as good, which is why they are
cheaper. When did we stop rewarding people for the value they
provide? I know this jerk didn't invent it but he obviously was
willing to reward those who did with a price they thought fair.
Sales over the next few years will prove if he made a mistake.
Why not force Chuck to sell a unique mount he made for 5% over
cost? Heck, why not only cover his cost? Why not less than cost
and force him to provide his great product for the good of the
people? There is a reason it is named Animal Farm. How many have
read this book? While not about capitalism it does speak to the
kind of central control that skulks below the overt argument for
"controlling" this type of behavior.
I know people might die. I'll put on my really jerky hat and say
"so what?". People die every day for less meaning and in greater
numbers. There is practically a mass suicide movement going on now
with texting and driving. I don't see where people value there
lives or others that much anyway when reading a text or email is
more important than life itself.
I guess I am just a

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

2015-12-18 Thread Rory Conaway

200 years ago people paid for their own medicine instead of getting insurance 
involved.  It was a competitive market versus today.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mathew Howard
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:52 AM
To: af <af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

Sure, they had leeches... leeches are good for everything.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Josh Luthman 
<j...@imaginenetworksllc.com<mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:
You mean to tell me 200 years ago there wasn't any medicine?  Sure it's far 
superior now, but in the 1800s they had basics.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Lewis Bergman 
<lewis.berg...@gmail.com<mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I have to disagree. 200 years ago there were practically no medicines worth 
talking about yet here we all are. Medicine, while a fantastic advancement, 
does not rise to the level of air, water, food, and shelter.
On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:17 AM Josh Luthman 
<j...@imaginenetworksllc.com<mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:
Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone need to survive.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum 
<cc...@wispmon.com<mailto:cc...@wispmon.com>> wrote:
Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop? Why are others 
forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than congenital defects, and some 
accidents, most health problems are due to peoples choices. If our money is to 
be confiscated to pay for everyone's "human right", don't we get a say in how 
they live? How many other human rights are being trampled on then?

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman 
<j...@imaginenetworksllc.com<mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:
Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and demand?  I'd agree on 
the whole hotel thing - you don't have to stay there - but when you have some 
medical condition (and while yes AIDS is something you can certainly avoid) I 
think as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a basic human right.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373
On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman 
<lewis.berg...@gmail.com<mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that pure capitalism is the 
best way demonstrated to date to innovate and health care or pharma is not 
exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These pharma 
companies have something like 7 years until the exclusivity period expires. 
That can be a pretty short time to recover investments. This particular case 
may be a bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken in America is simply 
ludicrous.

I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on a Friday. Thursday 
night at the hotel was $159 and Friday was $269. I don't think that is price 
gouging. I think it is a reflection of the simple fact that there are fewer 
rooms available on that particular night than are demanded at $159. The 
equilibrium was found at $259 where supply and demand come closer to being 
equal. At that price I still witnessed people turned away wanting a room due to 
their poor planning. I don't think that is price gouging. Their hotel was full 
at $269 a night. The next day was $159 again. Since the hotel was full they 
probably could have been even higher.

I really don't understand what people have such a huge issue with the 
fundamental theory of supply and demand. Yes I understand that it is a 
potentially life saving drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe they 
aren't as good, which is why they are cheaper. When did we stop rewarding 
people for the value they provide? I know this jerk didn't invent it but he 
obviously was willing to reward those who did with a price they thought fair. 
Sales over the next few years will prove if he made a mistake.

Why not force Chuck to sell a unique mount he made for 5% over cost? Heck, why 
not only cover his cost? Why not less than cost and force him to provide his 
great product for the good of the people? There is a reason it is named Animal 
Farm. How many have read this book? While not about capitalism it does speak to 
the kind of central control that skulks below the overt argument for 
"controlling" this type of behavior.

I know people might die. I'll put on my really jerky hat and say "so what?". 
People die every day for less meaning and in greater numbers. There is 
practically a mass suicide movement going on now with texting and driving. I 
don't see where people value there lives or others that much anyway when 
reading a text

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

2015-12-18 Thread Mathew Howard

Sure, but you can pretty much guarantee that nobody is going to have a life
span of much more than a few weeks without food, and it's perfectly
possible for (some) people to live 100 years without ever touching any sort
of medicine.

I don't see how something that doesn't exist until someone puts a lot of
time and energy into creating it can be considered a human right.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:57 AM, Simon Westlake <simon@sonar.software>
wrote:

> Well, technically you don't need food to survive either, just live longer.
>
> On 12/18/2015 10:56 AM, Daniel White wrote:
>
> You don’t need medicine to survive.  You need medicine to live longer.
> Humans existed well before the concept of medicine was discovered (and even
> longer before antidotal “medicine man” cures became modern medicine).
>
>
>
> Thank you,
>
>
>
> Daniel White
>
> <afmu...@gmail.com>afmu...@gmail.com
>
> Cell: +1 (303) 746-3590
>
> Skype: danieldwhite
> Social: LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/danielwhite84>: Twitter
> <https://twitter.com/DanielWhite84>
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com <af-boun...@afmug.com>] *On
> Behalf Of *Josh Luthman
> *Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2015 8:17 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)
>
>
>
> Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone need to
> survive.
>
>
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum <cc...@wispmon.com> wrote:
>
> Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop? Why are
> others forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than congenital defects,
> and some accidents, most health problems are due to peoples choices. If our
> money is to be confiscated to pay for everyone's "human right", don't we
> get a say in how they live? How many other human rights are being trampled
> on then?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>
> wrote:
>
> Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and demand?  I'd
> agree on the whole hotel thing - you don't have to stay there - but when
> you have some medical condition (and while yes AIDS is something you can
> certainly avoid) I think as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a
> basic human right.
>
>
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
>
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman < <lewis.berg...@gmail.com>
> lewis.berg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that pure capitalism is
> the best way demonstrated to date to innovate and health care or pharma is
> not exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These
> pharma companies have something like 7 years until the exclusivity period
> expires. That can be a pretty short time to recover investments. This
> particular case may be a bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken
> in America is simply ludicrous.
>
>
>
> I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on a Friday.
> Thursday night at the hotel was $159 and Friday was $269. I don't think
> that is price gouging. I think it is a reflection of the simple fact that
> there are fewer rooms available on that particular night than are demanded
> at $159. The equilibrium was found at $259 where supply and demand come
> closer to being equal. At that price I still witnessed people turned away
> wanting a room due to their poor planning. I don't think that is price
> gouging. Their hotel was full at $269 a night. The next day was $159 again.
> Since the hotel was full they probably could have been even higher.
>
>
>
> I really don't understand what people have such a huge issue with the
> fundamental theory of supply and demand. Yes I understand that it is a
> potentially life saving drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe
> they aren't as good, which is why they are cheaper. When did we stop
> rewarding people for the value they provide? I know this jerk didn't invent
> it but he obviously was willing to reward those who did with a price they
> thought fair. Sales over the next few years will prove if he made a mistake.
>
>
>
> Why not force Chuck to sell a unique mount he made for 5% over cost? Heck,
> why not only cover his cost? Why not less than cost and force him to
> provide his great product for the good of the people? There is a reason it
> is named Animal Farm. Ho

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

2015-12-18 Thread Rory Conaway

This argument has three sides.  If companies didn’t have government regulation 
and the threat of lawsuits over their head, the cost of developing new 
medicines would go down so far everyone could afford the more common ones.  The 
other side of that is that a lot more people would end up with either bogus 
drugs, disastrous side affects, or long term, possibly terminal damage.  You 
need some regulation but we need to prevent lawyers from filing these massive 
class action lawsuits 30 years later.  That gets built into the price.  Then 
the third side is that if there wasn’t a profit motive, new drugs might never 
have been developed, especially for diseases where only a very small number of 
people might have them.

If you want the best drugs, you need to keep the profit motive.  However, get 
the lawyers out of it to start with and then see where prices go.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 9:56 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

The discovery of penicillin literally changed life for all of humanity. Imagine 
if Shkreli had invented it. Divorcing ethics from capitalism is a fool’s 
fairytale. Anyone who justifies it has never read about the history of the 
legal invention of “corporation.”


-  Patrick

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 11:40 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

You mean to tell me 200 years ago there wasn't any medicine?  Sure it's far 
superior now, but in the 1800s they had basics.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Lewis Bergman 
<lewis.berg...@gmail.com<mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I have to disagree. 200 years ago there were practically no medicines worth 
talking about yet here we all are. Medicine, while a fantastic advancement, 
does not rise to the level of air, water, food, and shelter.
On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:17 AM Josh Luthman 
<j...@imaginenetworksllc.com<mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:
Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone need to survive.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum 
<cc...@wispmon.com<mailto:cc...@wispmon.com>> wrote:
Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop? Why are others 
forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than congenital defects, and some 
accidents, most health problems are due to peoples choices. If our money is to 
be confiscated to pay for everyone's "human right", don't we get a say in how 
they live? How many other human rights are being trampled on then?


On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman 
<j...@imaginenetworksllc.com<mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:
Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and demand?  I'd agree on 
the whole hotel thing - you don't have to stay there - but when you have some 
medical condition (and while yes AIDS is something you can certainly avoid) I 
think as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a basic human right.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373
On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman 
<lewis.berg...@gmail.com<mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that pure capitalism is the 
best way demonstrated to date to innovate and health care or pharma is not 
exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These pharma 
companies have something like 7 years until the exclusivity period expires. 
That can be a pretty short time to recover investments. This particular case 
may be a bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken in America is simply 
ludicrous.

I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on a Friday. Thursday 
night at the hotel was $159 and Friday was $269. I don't think that is price 
gouging. I think it is a reflection of the simple fact that there are fewer 
rooms available on that particular night than are demanded at $159. The 
equilibrium was found at $259 where supply and demand come closer to being 
equal. At that price I still witnessed people turned away wanting a room due to 
their poor planning. I don't think that is price gouging. Their hotel was full 
at $269 a night. The next day was $159 again. Since the hotel was full they 
probably could have been even higher.

I really don't understand what people have such a huge issue with the 
fundamental theory of supply and demand. Yes I understand that it is a 
potentially life saving drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe they 
aren't as good, which is why the

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

The medicine was patented, and not by Fleming, but by a later scientist who 
took it into mass production, but at reasonable profit. Fleming (one of the 
"inventers" who himself said he only discovered it, not invented it) did not 
apply for the patent. 

Patrick Leary


-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jay Weekley
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 12:07 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

A patent on a common mold would be interesting.

Patrick Leary wrote:
>
> The discovery of penicillin literally changed life for all of 
> humanity. Imagine if Shkreli had invented it. Divorcing ethics from 
> capitalism is a fool’s fairytale. Anyone who justifies it has never 
> read about the history of the legal invention of “corporation.”
>
> -Patrick
>
> *From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Luthman
> *Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2015 11:40 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)
>
> You mean to tell me 200 years ago there wasn't any medicine?  Sure 
> it's far superior now, but in the 1800s they had basics.
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Lewis Bergman 
> <lewis.berg...@gmail.com <mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I have to disagree. 200 years ago there were practically no
> medicines worth talking about yet here we all are. Medicine, while
> a fantastic advancement, does not rise to the level of air, water,
> food, and shelter.
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:17 AM Josh Luthman
> <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com <mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>>
> wrote:
>
> Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and
> everyone need to survive.
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340 
> Direct: 937-552-2343 
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum
> <cc...@wispmon.com <mailto:cc...@wispmon.com>> wrote:
>
> Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it
> stop? Why are others forced to pay for peoples bad habits?
> Other than congenital defects, and some accidents, most
> health problems are due to peoples choices. If our money
> is to be confiscated to pay for everyone's "human right",
> don't we get a say in how they live? How many other human
> rights are being trampled on then?
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman
> <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com
> <mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:
>
> Should medicine really be part of a system of supply
> and demand? I'd agree on the whole hotel thing - you
> don't have to stay there - but when you have some
> medical condition (and while yes AIDS is something you
> can certainly avoid) I think as a society and a
> culture we shouldn't deny a basic human right.
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340 
> Direct: 937-552-2343 
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman
> <lewis.berg...@gmail.com
> <mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains
> that pure capitalism is the best way demonstrated
> to date to innovate and health care or pharma is
> not exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort
> yielding big results. These pharma companies have
> something like 7 years until the exclusivity
> period expires. That can be a pretty short time to
> recover investments. This particular case may be a
> bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken
> in America is simply ludicrous.
>
> I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas
> Tech on a Friday. Thursday night at the hotel was
> $159 and Friday was $269. I don't think that is
> price gouging. I think it is a reflection of the
> simple fact that t

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

My sincere hope – and it is a vengeful wish – is that he learns this humility 
pondering his soul as he paces his 8x6 cell in sharting trepidation upon 
realizing he is such a cute little thing!

Patrick Leary

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 12:56 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

I understand your premise but Penicillin was discovered, not invented. It would 
likely be just as difficult for Christopher Columbus to patent America. The 
process to mass produce it is patented. But I do get your point.
This idiot is only 35 or something. He will likely eventually get a heart and a 
mind just like Carnegie did.
On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:55 AM Patrick Leary 
<patrick.le...@telrad.com<mailto:patrick.le...@telrad.com>> wrote:
The discovery of penicillin literally changed life for all of humanity. Imagine 
if Shkreli had invented it. Divorcing ethics from capitalism is a fool’s 
fairytale. Anyone who justifies it has never read about the history of the 
legal invention of “corporation.”

-  Patrick

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com>] On Behalf 
Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 11:40 AM
To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

You mean to tell me 200 years ago there wasn't any medicine?  Sure it's far 
superior now, but in the 1800s they had basics.

Josh Luthman

Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Lewis Bergman 
<lewis.berg...@gmail.com<mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I have to disagree. 200 years ago there were practically no medicines worth 
talking about yet here we all are. Medicine, while a fantastic advancement, 
does not rise to the level of air, water, food, and shelter.
On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:17 AM Josh Luthman 
<j...@imaginenetworksllc.com<mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:
Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and everyone need to survive.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum 
<cc...@wispmon.com<mailto:cc...@wispmon.com>> wrote:
Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it stop? Why are others 
forced to pay for peoples bad habits? Other than congenital defects, and some 
accidents, most health problems are due to peoples choices. If our money is to 
be confiscated to pay for everyone's "human right", don't we get a say in how 
they live? How many other human rights are being trampled on then?

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman 
<j...@imaginenetworksllc.com<mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:
Should medicine really be part of a system of supply and demand?  I'd agree on 
the whole hotel thing - you don't have to stay there - but when you have some 
medical condition (and while yes AIDS is something you can certainly avoid) I 
think as a society and a culture we shouldn't deny a basic human right.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373
On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman 
<lewis.berg...@gmail.com<mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains that pure capitalism is the 
best way demonstrated to date to innovate and health care or pharma is not 
exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort yielding big results. These pharma 
companies have something like 7 years until the exclusivity period expires. 
That can be a pretty short time to recover investments. This particular case 
may be a bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken in America is simply 
ludicrous.

I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas Tech on a Friday. Thursday 
night at the hotel was $159 and Friday was $269. I don't think that is price 
gouging. I think it is a reflection of the simple fact that there are fewer 
rooms available on that particular night than are demanded at $159. The 
equilibrium was found at $259 where supply and demand come closer to being 
equal. At that price I still witnessed people turned away wanting a room due to 
their poor planning. I don't think that is price gouging. Their hotel was full 
at $269 a night. The next day was $159 again. Since the hotel was full they 
probably could have been even higher.

I really don't understand what people have such a huge issue with the 
fundamental theory of supply and demand. Yes I understand that it is a 
potentially life saving drug. There are other cheaper treatments. Maybe they 
aren't as good, which is why they are cheaper. When did we stop rewarding 
people for the value they provide? I know this jerk didn't invent it but he 
obviously was willing to reward those who did

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

You offer an argument on a technical point. A person "works" for whomever
pays them. Only to that entity lies their loyalty with few exceptions. A
single payer system does in fact mean that there is really only one
supplier, the entity paying. That one institution sets guidelines, rules
for care, what treatments are offered, what training will be paid for, and
on and on.
I can't speak for Canada but I when I was the chairman of a hospital board
for 5 years we had a German doctor who worked at the hospital. We had long
discussions about why she was here, the level of care, and affordability of
healthcare. While she had a difficult time with the concept of a person
paying for what they consumed she had no difficulty explaining why she was
here. She was tired of watching people die waiting for treatment and
getting a meager salary to be thoroughly frustrated doing so.

The fact that my anecdotal example doesn't convince you is fine but that is
the average not the exception. The military health system is crap just like
the VA system. Other than battlefield trauma they should be abolished. But
then again, I choose to make the most of the world I live in and not dream
about some fairy tale world of my own construction. It appears to me you
likely have never seen the underbelly of our health care system and the
bizarre ways in which the government warps what is important by the mere
fact of what, how, and when it chooses to reimburse providers for the care
they give. If you have been, then it seems you choose to ignore the reality
that is laid bare to the exposure; government screws up just about
everything it lays its hands on.

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 11:32 AM Patrick Leary <patrick.le...@telrad.com>
wrote:

> In places like Canada and Germany, where healthcare is universal and paid
> through common burden via taxes, the doctors are NOT government employees.
> You take one episodic experience (a sincere and painful one for your family
> to be sure) with a failed system and use that to indict as bad and
> inefficient universal systems. In fact, the example you cite bolsters my
> argument, as the VA is run as it is because our system sucks where agencies
> like the VA are chronically underfunded and understaffed.
>
>
>
> The idea that private care somehow ceases to exist in a universal system
> is simply false. This is a key mistake some in our culture have been taught
> by ideologues bent on obscuring fact. People who advocate for “single
> payer” (and those who understand it factually) know the only real argument
> is how things are paid for, not how services are delivered. Additionally,
> in every place where universal care exists, there also exists elective
> choices that can be accessed outside the basic system.
>
>
>
> Patrick
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Lewis Bergman
> *Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2015 12:21 PM
>
>
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)
>
>
>
> You assume I haven't when in fact I was part of the socialist healthcare
> system that some want to force everyone onto when I did need care the
> government was incapable of providing.
>
>
>
> My son was asthmatic and was in the hospital 6 times in one month. The
> military health system could not, or would not, care for him. Instead, they
> preferred to accuse my wife of mistreating him. What saved him was the
> PRIVATE health care system. We drove him several times to a very good
> PRIVATE hospital 4 hours away to get the care the government could not or
> would not provide even though my son was entitled to it. I was happy to pay
> for that our of my own pocket.
>
>
>
> Why? Not because they were trying to be bad at their job, they just were
> incompetent, untrained, and unwilling to do much about it. Without the
> private health care system and a doctor who sacrificed a great amount of
> his time for the reward of wealth he thought would be his reward I may have
> lost him.
>
>
>
> Maybe your the one who has never needed a life saving treatment or
> medicine. I have been there and it keenly illustrated that without the
> private sector (capitalism) and the incentive it provides a life may have
> been lost. I was willing to pay what it took to get my son the help he
> needed.
>
> Take that same case where there was no private sector. No son. I think
> I'll take my chances with the private sector I may be able to afford than
> the government sector that can't provide what i need at any cost.
>
>
>
> On your corporate welfare point I agree. There should be no medicare,
> medicaid, or food stamps so there is no passing the buck. What I mean by
> that is there should be no supplement that is a permanent entitlement.
> Everyone has hard ti

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)


He patented a process, not a mold.

Patrick Leary wrote:

The medicine was patented, and not by Fleming, but by a later scientist who took it into 
mass production, but at reasonable profit. Fleming (one of the "inventers" who 
himself said he only discovered it, not invented it) did not apply for the patent.

Patrick Leary


-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jay Weekley
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 12:07 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

A patent on a common mold would be interesting.

Patrick Leary wrote:

The discovery of penicillin literally changed life for all of
humanity. Imagine if Shkreli had invented it. Divorcing ethics from
capitalism is a fool’s fairytale. Anyone who justifies it has never
read about the history of the legal invention of “corporation.”

-Patrick

*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Luthman
*Sent:* Friday, December 18, 2015 11:40 AM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

You mean to tell me 200 years ago there wasn't any medicine?  Sure
it's far superior now, but in the 1800s they had basics.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Lewis Bergman
<lewis.berg...@gmail.com <mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:

 I have to disagree. 200 years ago there were practically no
 medicines worth talking about yet here we all are. Medicine, while
 a fantastic advancement, does not rise to the level of air, water,
 food, and shelter.

 On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:17 AM Josh Luthman
 <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com <mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>>
 wrote:

 Food, water, shelter, medicine.  The things anyone and
 everyone need to survive.


 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340 
 Direct: 937-552-2343 
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 10:04 AM, Cameron Crum
 <cc...@wispmon.com <mailto:cc...@wispmon.com>> wrote:

 Since when has it been a basic human right? Where does it
 stop? Why are others forced to pay for peoples bad habits?
 Other than congenital defects, and some accidents, most
 health problems are due to peoples choices. If our money
 is to be confiscated to pay for everyone's "human right",
 don't we get a say in how they live? How many other human
 rights are being trampled on then?

 On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 8:56 AM, Josh Luthman
 <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com
 <mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>> wrote:

 Should medicine really be part of a system of supply
 and demand? I'd agree on the whole hotel thing - you
 don't have to stay there - but when you have some
 medical condition (and while yes AIDS is something you
 can certainly avoid) I think as a society and a
 culture we shouldn't deny a basic human right.


 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340 
 Direct: 937-552-2343 
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Lewis Bergman
 <lewis.berg...@gmail.com
 <mailto:lewis.berg...@gmail.com>> wrote:

 I can't defend his brashness, but the fact remains
 that pure capitalism is the best way demonstrated
 to date to innovate and health care or pharma is
 not exempt. Big rewards encourage big effort
 yielding big results. These pharma companies have
 something like 7 years until the exclusivity
 period expires. That can be a pretty short time to
 recover investments. This particular case may be a
 bit extreme but to say that capitalism is broken
 in America is simply ludicrous.

 I recently attended my sons graduation from Texas
 Tech on a Friday. Thursday night at the hotel was
 $159 and Friday was $269. I don't think that is
 price gouging. I think it is a reflection of the
 simple fact that there are fewer rooms available
 on that particular night than are demanded at
 $159. The equilibrium was found at $259 where
 supply and demand come closer to being equal. At
 that price I still witnessed people turned away
 wanting a room due to their poor

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

Lewis, I am both a veteran and a cancer survivor. I lived for almost 2 years in 
Germany. I have also received emergency care outside the U.S. (in a country 
where Americans pay for their universal healthcare basically). My sister also 
lived several years longer with breast cancer….while in Canada. Eventually, she 
made the hard decision to come home, knowing the decision would kill her 
because the only care she could then access (as an unemployed student who had 
been doing post-doctoral work in theology) was hospice. She passed 3 months 
later, but at least with her family around.

I also know, at least according to Harvard in 2009, that some 45,000 Americans 
die each year for lack of affordable healthcare access.

So, no my friend, while I have not sat on a hospital board (that is excellent 
community service on your part), ignorant on the topic I am not.

Patrick Leary, Telrad
727-501-3735

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Lewis Bergman
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 1:12 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

You offer an argument on a technical point. A person "works" for whomever pays 
them. Only to that entity lies their loyalty with few exceptions. A single 
payer system does in fact mean that there is really only one supplier, the 
entity paying. That one institution sets guidelines, rules for care, what 
treatments are offered, what training will be paid for, and on and on.
I can't speak for Canada but I when I was the chairman of a hospital board for 
5 years we had a German doctor who worked at the hospital. We had long 
discussions about why she was here, the level of care, and affordability of 
healthcare. While she had a difficult time with the concept of a person paying 
for what they consumed she had no difficulty explaining why she was here. She 
was tired of watching people die waiting for treatment and getting a meager 
salary to be thoroughly frustrated doing so.

The fact that my anecdotal example doesn't convince you is fine but that is the 
average not the exception. The military health system is crap just like the VA 
system. Other than battlefield trauma they should be abolished. But then again, 
I choose to make the most of the world I live in and not dream about some fairy 
tale world of my own construction. It appears to me you likely have never seen 
the underbelly of our health care system and the bizarre ways in which the 
government warps what is important by the mere fact of what, how, and when it 
chooses to reimburse providers for the care they give. If you have been, then 
it seems you choose to ignore the reality that is laid bare to the exposure; 
government screws up just about everything it lays its hands on.
On Fri, Dec 18, 2015 at 11:32 AM Patrick Leary 
<patrick.le...@telrad.com<mailto:patrick.le...@telrad.com>> wrote:
In places like Canada and Germany, where healthcare is universal and paid 
through common burden via taxes, the doctors are NOT government employees. You 
take one episodic experience (a sincere and painful one for your family to be 
sure) with a failed system and use that to indict as bad and inefficient 
universal systems. In fact, the example you cite bolsters my argument, as the 
VA is run as it is because our system sucks where agencies like the VA are 
chronically underfunded and understaffed.

The idea that private care somehow ceases to exist in a universal system is 
simply false. This is a key mistake some in our culture have been taught by 
ideologues bent on obscuring fact. People who advocate for “single payer” (and 
those who understand it factually) know the only real argument is how things 
are paid for, not how services are delivered. Additionally, in every place 
where universal care exists, there also exists elective choices that can be 
accessed outside the basic system.

Patrick

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com<mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com>] On Behalf 
Of Lewis Bergman
Sent: Friday, December 18, 2015 12:21 PM

To: af@afmug.com<mailto:af@afmug.com>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)

You assume I haven't when in fact I was part of the socialist healthcare system 
that some want to force everyone onto when I did need care the government was 
incapable of providing.

My son was asthmatic and was in the hospital 6 times in one month. The military 
health system could not, or would not, care for him. Instead, they preferred to 
accuse my wife of mistreating him. What saved him was the PRIVATE health care 
system. We drove him several times to a very good PRIVATE hospital 4 hours away 
to get the care the government could not or would not provide even though my 
son was entitled to it. I was happy to pay for that our of my own pocket.

Why? Not because they were trying to be bad at their job, they just were 
incompetent, untrained, and unwilling to do much about it. Without the private 
health care system a

Re: [AFMUG] OT - Captilism (was Martin Shkreli)