subject:"Re\: \[CGUYS\] You Saw the Demo\? Are you impressed\?"

On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 9:47 PM, t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 On Jan 30, 2010, at 6:30 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

  I was not reacting to anything that Apple did or did not do.  I was
 querying you about why you were telling someone that wanting to have a
 USB port is a symptom of clinging to the past, seemingly some kind
 of disorder in your view, and also represented a means of data
 transfer that one should no longer need.

 I close my eyes and imagine you walking around with your ideal iPad. A dozen
 cables snaking their way to the floor and various peripheral boxes clanking
 as you drag them behind.

  Please do not be so damn silly.  This is a meaningless non-response
to my query and shows me that you view me as being an idiot.  Having a
USB port does not mean that one has to have a dozen cables snaking
their way to the floor.  To transfer data, a USB slot requires only a
flash drive to be inserted, a little device that is about 2 inches
long or less, 1/4 thick and about 3/4 inch wide.

  I also was not specifically referring to an iPad in my query about
your apparent aversion to USB interface ports.  You weren't either
when you initially mentioned such in what you said to someone here
earlier on that got this started.  You were saying, in strictly
general terms related to current technology, that wanting to have
currently popular and widely used interface ports is indicative of
clinging to the past.  Again I ask, how so?  You could have said,
using existing technology or even using older technology.  But no,
you began your statement with the word clinging which clearly
indicates a situation of desperation, a stubborn refusal to abandon
something or an emotional mental condition.  You projected your view
upon someone's mention of a subject as opposed to simply reading what
was said and commenting upon it.  One again, either purposefully or
inadvertently, you managed to engage in ridicule as opposed to being
merely conversant.  Do you not understand that this makes
communication difficult?

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 9:21 PM, t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 On Jan 30, 2010, at 5:30 PM, David K Watson wrote:

 While price was probably an issue, I don't myself think that it was
 the main one in Apple's decision to keep the physical interfaces
 to a minimum.  Apple likes to promote itself as the company whose
 devices just work, and if they had USB ports on the iPad then there
 would immediately be thousands of things that wouldn't work with it.
 By making sure that all input comes in wirelessly (where you have
 one set of expectations) or through the dock (where they have
 full control), Apple has a better chance of making sure that
 everything Just Works.


 Precisely right.

  Maybe.  Maybe not.  Is this why Apple did not include a CD/DVD drive
in the Air?  Or, was that a size or pricing consideration or even
analogous to Apple dropping floppy drives?  My iMac has USB.  Apple
apparently was not concerned about things that wouldn't work with it
in that instance.

  I do not think that any of us know for sure why Apple decided to
exclude ports on the iPad.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 9:40 PM, t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 On Jan 30, 2010, at 6:46 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

 However, and while this does not
 negate the previous sentence, most computer buyers still prefer to
 use, by a wide margin, computers that run under Windows as opposed to
 the Mac OS.

 False. People who have a real free choice very rarely pick Windows.

  Do I even want to respond to this?

  Your response is incorrect.  Prefer means tend to choose.  Free
choice or no free choice, most computer users tend to choose Windows
as their operating system.  That is patently true.  Do I think that
many of those folks could be better served by a different OS.  Yes.

  What is a real free choice in this instance?  Consumers may be
brainwashed, but they still have a free choice.  Perhaps you are
saying that their being brainwashed may have resulted in not having a
REAL free choice even though they actually do.  As I have said a
hundred times before, most people tell me that they use Windows
because, and this is how they usually put it, everybody else does.
Translation?  Because it is popular and they want to be part of the
popular crowd, i.e., intended for the general public rather than
specialists or intellectuals.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-31 Thread Jordan

To me, for someone to choose implies that they are reasonably informed 
about the options. I believe that great masses of Windows users are not 
sufficiently aware of the Mac and OS X as a serious option.




  Do I even want to respond to this?

  Your response is incorrect.  Prefer means tend to choose.  Free
choice or no free choice, most computer users tend to choose Windows
as their operating system.  That is patently true.  Do I think that
many of those folks could be better served by a different OS.  Yes.

  What is a real free choice in this instance?  Consumers may be
brainwashed, but they still have a free choice.  Perhaps you are
saying that their being brainwashed may have resulted in not having a
REAL free choice even though they actually do.  As I have said a
hundred times before, most people tell me that they use Windows
because, and this is how they usually put it, everybody else does.
Translation?  Because it is popular and they want to be part of the
popular crowd, i.e., intended for the general public rather than
specialists or intellectuals.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

Thanks for the link.  I usually assume Tom is just making stuff up because
he never provides links when he's in all out carpet bombing mode as he has
been.

Perhaps morons was too strong a word, but my point remains.  Apple usually
takes a path that takes choices away from consumers to better their
'seamless' experience.  In my opinion this can cost the consumer freedoms.
 If the iPhone ran multiple apps, users could choose to not do it..but Apple
has already chosen for them.  I like having those choices left to me, not
someone else.

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 7:03 AM, David Newhall dnewh...@gmail.com wrote:




 It was the android app store. Here is the alert from the credit union
 involved: http://bit.ly/50M69N .

 No, Apple doesn't treat its customers like morons. It knows they want a
 seamless experience above all. That requires intelligently limiting choices.
 They don't always get it right first time, but you can tell that there are
 lots of smart people thinking about these choices.

 I intend to get an iPad next year. If I'm honest, it can do 90% of what I
 use a computer for outside of work. 10 hours of batter life and the cheap 3g
 will make it a brilliant travel companion.

 David Newhall
 Falls Church, VA



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?


On Jan 31, 2010, at 9:57 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

What is a real free choice in this instance?  Consumers may be
brainwashed, but they still have a free choice.  Perhaps you are
saying that their being brainwashed may have resulted in not having a
REAL free choice...


There is some of that. There are various forms of intimidation too.  
Often it is just a failure to adequately explore the alternatives. The  
conditions for a free choice are not always easy to achieve.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?


On Jan 31, 2010, at 10:11 AM, mike wrote:

But then those so called intellectuals...


Well that proves the previous point about ...channelling this popular  
anger against intellectual snobs.


The most effective way to keep the serfs in line is to convince them  
that freedom would mean their selling out to the intellectual snobs.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

I believe that the great masses of mac users believe cost is not a
consideration.

You may also be right, people stick to what they are used to.  They stick to
what their friends have.  They use things that their friends can help them
fix if something goes wrong.  The thing is, mac users do the same thing.
 Imagine the peer pressure of being a friend of some of the more vocal mac
users on this list, you buy a pc and suddenly your mac using friend is
calling you an idiot and treating you horribly..telling you you are actually
evil.  There is much more pressure from mac users to stick with Apple than
windows users ever exert.  This anger from some mac users isn't going to
sway many buyers who are on the fence to go to mac, it might push them the
other way if nothing else to get away from the negative vibe.  Apple has
also put itself into the space of expensive/high end computing.  When people
think I need a new inexpensive computer, Apple does not come to mind.  Now
this tactic has worked out VERY well for Apple, they don't want to be the
everymans computer, they only want the ones that are willing to pay.  But
Apple has placed themselves in this box in the mind of consumers, and it
serves them as well as it doesn't.  I have a friend from work who bought two
systems just before last Christmas, she spent less than 1100 for both..do
you think these were new macs?  She hasn't had a lick of trouble...I know
because I'd have gotten the call.



On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 8:41 AM, Jordan jor17...@gmail.com wrote:

 To me, for someone to choose implies that they are reasonably informed
 about the options. I believe that great masses of Windows users are not
 sufficiently aware of the Mac and OS X as a serious option.



   Do I even want to respond to this?

  Your response is incorrect.  Prefer means tend to choose.  Free
 choice or no free choice, most computer users tend to choose Windows
 as their operating system.  That is patently true.  Do I think that
 many of those folks could be better served by a different OS.  Yes.

  What is a real free choice in this instance?  Consumers may be
 brainwashed, but they still have a free choice.  Perhaps you are
 saying that their being brainwashed may have resulted in not having a
 REAL free choice even though they actually do.  As I have said a
 hundred times before, most people tell me that they use Windows
 because, and this is how they usually put it, everybody else does.
 Translation?  Because it is popular and they want to be part of the
 popular crowd, i.e., intended for the general public rather than
 specialists or intellectuals.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?


On Jan 31, 2010, at 10:40 AM, mike wrote:

Thanks for the link.  I usually assume Tom is just making stuff up


Just because you constantly make things up does not mean that I do. I  
don't have to make things up because I am not defending an  
indefensible position. I don't always provide links because I think  
you can use Google as well as I can. Independent fact checking is  
always a good idea and a link to a looney-tune site proves nothing.


Thanks to David for a very solid link.


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?


On Jan 31, 2010, at 9:20 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

You were saying, in strictly
general terms related to current technology, that wanting to have
currently popular and widely used interface ports is indicative of
clinging to the past.  Again I ask, how so?  You could have said,
using existing technology or even using older technology.  But no,
you began your statement with the word clinging which clearly
indicates a situation of desperation, a stubborn refusal to abandon
something or an emotional mental condition.


And I gave lots of example too. Apple does this quite often and it  
causes great angst among those resistant to change.


Someone else even pointed out that you can now buy an SD card that  
gives the camera a wireless link. Isn't that a far better way to link  
your camera to an iPad?



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

I know freedom scares liberals like you, things like self reliance are
frightening.

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 9:49 AM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 On Jan 31, 2010, at 10:40 AM, mike wrote:

 In my opinion this can cost the consumer freedoms.
 If the iPhone ran multiple apps, users could choose to not do it..but
 Apple
 has already chosen for them.  I like having those choices left to me, not
 someone else.


 This is just so silly. Apple has made a huge investment in protesting its
 customers and you carp because you want the wild west.

 If you want a tour of the White House to you expect to be allowed to jump
 the fence?



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

You do make things up..I *still* await your link, as I have many times.  You
make crazy assertions, you should back them up.

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 9:40 AM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 On Jan 31, 2010, at 10:40 AM, mike wrote:

 Thanks for the link.  I usually assume Tom is just making stuff up


 Just because you constantly make things up does not mean that I do. I don't
 have to make things up because I am not defending an indefensible position.
 I don't always provide links because I think you can use Google as well as I
 can. Independent fact checking is always a good idea and a link to a
 looney-tune site proves nothing.

 Thanks to David for a very solid link.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 10:11 AM, mike xha...@gmail.com wrote:

 The only ones I've ever heard say they are 'forced to use windows' are mac
 users.  I've heard plenty of complaints from windows users, but never  'I
 went into the store and the salesman forced me to buy windows'.  It reminds
 me of the line from A Few Good Men when Noah Wyle was asked how he finds the
 mess hall because it's not in the manual...I just follow the crowd at chow
 time.  But then those so called intellectuals are doing the same
 thing...just following a smaller crowd and spending more money on chow.

  My line about specialists and intellectuals was actually from my
dictionary as per its definition of the word popular.  I think it fits
perfectly well in the computing world, the music world, the film
world, the magazine world, the TV world, etc., etc., etc.  I did not
intend that line as a slam against any particular Windows user.  I
like a certain amount of popular, or pop music even though I spend
none of my money buying or supporting any of it.

  I am sure that many Mac users are part of a herd and are likely to
be proud of that as well.  Such is their prerogative and/or fate or
fortune, though hopefully and most likey the flatter.   Personally
speaking, the main reason that I went with Macs is because I was
coming off of Atari computers at the time and they had GUIs as did
Macs and also excelled at graphics work.  Macs were therefore a
natural for me.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-31 Thread Rich Schinnell


All of this mac vs pc reminds me of what henry ford evidently said
at some time.

You can have any car I make, any color you wish, as long as it is black

Someone else also said.

Mine is biggern  yours

YMMV

Rich 



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Jordan jor17...@gmail.com wrote:

 To me, for someone to choose implies that they are reasonably informed about
 the options. I believe that great masses of Windows users are not
 sufficiently aware of the Mac and OS X as a serious option.

  Agreed.  However, an implication of awareness or knowledge is not
part of the definition of the word choose.  People often make
choices without any understanding about options, if indeed there even
are any, as in damned if you do, damned if you don't.  Additionally,
many computer users are either truly afraid to switch to something
else, merely reluctant to do so, unwilling to go through yet another
learning process or do not want to spend money on new software, as
well as a litany of other good and valid reasons for sticking with
they currently have.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 11:52 AM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 On Jan 31, 2010, at 9:20 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

 Please do not be so damn silly.  This is a meaningless non-response
 to my query and shows me that you view me as being an idiot.  Having a
 USB port does not mean that one has to have a dozen cables snaking
 their way to the floor.  To transfer data, a USB slot requires only a
 flash drive to be inserted, a little device that is about 2 inches
 long or less, 1/4 thick and about 3/4 inch wide.

 Scroll to the bottom of this page...
 http://www.apple.com/ipad/specs/

 Its the picture in the middle.

  Okay.  I see the picture and here is the text:

iPad Camera Connection Kit

The Camera Connection Kit gives you two ways to import photos and
videos from a digital camera. The Camera Connector lets you import
your photos and videos to iPad using the camera’s USB cable. Or you
can use the SD Card Reader to import photos and videos directly from
the camera’s SD card.
+++

  This tells the consumer that one may use this device to import
photos and videos to their iPad.  What of other forms of data
typically associated with USB as a means of transfer?  Text files?
Files, other than photo or video, that may want to be used with some
of the apps available?  I am only left to guess.

  Hey, isn't that thingy the mess of wires dragging around that you
were saying Apple eschews in their visions of the future, which by the
way, is like in the next five minutes or less.  Personally, I am never
in the future anyway, only in the present, and the present has ports
on most computers, and you know what, they get used.  I'll bet that
you are using at least one right now, or at least have it hooked up.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 11:59 AM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 Someone else even pointed out that you can now buy an SD card that gives the
 camera a wireless link. Isn't that a far better way to link your camera to
 an iPad?

  Perhaps so, but at what cost?  $60 for a couple of gigs?  Transfer
speed?  Slowww?  What, maybe around 50 or so Mbits/second?

  Most folks only have a limited amount of their hard earned income,
and these days it can be very hard earned, to spend on goodies.  A
better way to do this, a better way to do that, and a better way to do
all the other things we do can add up to a financial impossibility
even for the wealthiest.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-31 Thread Jordan


phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Jordan jor17...@gmail.com wrote:

  

To me, for someone to choose implies that they are reasonably informed about
the options. I believe that great masses of Windows users are not
sufficiently aware of the Mac and OS X as a serious option.



  Agreed.  However, an implication of awareness or knowledge is not
part of the definition of the word choose.  People often make
choices without any understanding about options.

Can an ignorant person actually be making a choice?
Or does ignorance preclude the possibility that a choice is being made?


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-31 Thread b_s-wilk


Tom imagines a lot...now he is imagining a world where everyone is
controlled.  Typically, people like this are really the ones being
controlled...as Apple does to it's users.


Hey Mike--Tom, too -

Cut out the hyperbole.

We use Macs and iPods/iPhones because they're good products, in spite of 
the reality distortion fields from Jobs and elsewhere. I remember the 
good and bad products.


The new Maxi iP[a/o]d is a niche product, like the Mac Cube, but even 
less practical, like the MacBook Air. Some people will love it, some 
will hate it. Unless Apple deals with some serious issues, like a 
nonstandard SIM slot and only a dock port, it will remain a niche toy 
with lots of happy consumers, but not much practicality. Wireless--WiFi, 
3G, EDGE--isn't everywhere--and do we really want to search for a 
McDonald's or other place just to transfer pix from our cameras, or 
carry a variety of extra cables that fit only into the dock port?


Nah. Silly. A few covered ports could eliminate the need for all those 
extra interchangeable dock cables--you'll need plenty of nonstandard 
cables to make up for the lack of basic connectivity. Don't be snarky, 
Tom, I don't mean floppy or Zip disks either.


We're not zombies...not zombies...not 
zombies...zombies...zombies...z


Betty


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-31 Thread Chris Dunford

 I know freedom scares liberals like you, things like self reliance are
 frightening.

Sorry, Mike, but this is unnecessary, incorrect, and insulting. You know I'm 
liberal. Do you seriously believe that I am frightened by self-reliance even 
though I've been self-employed for nearly
thirty years? Or that I spend my time trying to figure out how to get more 
welfare and food stamps? Or that I somehow dislike freedom, or find it 
frightening? Come on.

And lest you think I'm somehow unique, I can assure you that I am not. I don't 
know *any* liberal who thinks the way you seem to believe we do, and I know a 
*lot* of liberals, I promise you.

This is exactly the sort of sweeping generalization that's ruining political 
discourse in this country. 


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-31 Thread David K Watson

 From:Chris Dunford seed...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

 David, sorry, but I have plenty of experience with multitouch devices. Of the 
 two I have now, the SMALL one is 12 (and they're both 16:9, by the way, not 
 4:3 like iPad). The iPad's touchscreen is
 incontrovertibly midsize.

Now here you're telling us of your vast experience with something without 
providing any basis for us to evaluate it, making us work to tease some details 
out of you.  It's annoying, but anyhow, here goes:  please tell us of your 
multitouch 
experiences and the devices you now have.  I realize myself that I had 
forgotten 
about the tablet computers  that everyone else seems to have forgotten about 
also. So yes, I was wrong as far as screen size goes for generically-named 
multitouch 
devices.  While conceding the issue, I would like to point out that for many 
of 
these tablets, multi means two, and for a lot of the others it means 
three, 
and that it would be difficult to apprehend a really good multitouch experience 
based on familiarity with those clumsy machines.   

 Regarding the lack of HD output, I'd really like it if someone would
 establish how important it really is for any mobile device.

 I think it's silly to bring out any non-toy video device in 2010 without HD 
 capabilities.

Then many smartphone and netbook manufacturers are silly. As are most 
portable DVD players, but maybe you consider those to be toys.  Speaking 
of toys, the PSP, Wii and DS/DSi don't have HD and Nintendo seems to be 
doing quite well without it at the moment.  And why exclude toys?  I would 
have thought that HD is even more essential to them.  For example, it seems 
like weekend sports fanatics aren't considered serious unless they have HDTVs.  
In any case, you haven't answered the question, only slapped a different 
adjective 
on it.  Before, I asked why HD output was so important, and now I am asking 
why not having it is silly.  As I asked before, can you give any indication how 
popular HD output is among Zune HD users or explain why smartphone 
manufacturers aren't exactly falling over each other in a rush to include it?  
Maybe they believe that the extra sales HD would generate aren't enough 
to justify the cost of including it at present.  

 The tech specs page says that the 3G iPad has assisted GPS,
 and the TomTom kit for the touch should work for the non-3G
 model, so you DO have GPS on all of the iPads, should you want
 it.

 Extra cost for GPS either way. 

Come now, it has GPS, contrary to what you said.  Tell us, where don't 
you pay extra for GPS?  I guess you could say the iPad, since if you 
are buying it for the 3G you would be getting GPS for free.  

 Well, I didn't say anything about horrible app restrictions. But it IS a 
 restriction, and a significant one, in my view. I can't write an iPad app, 
 post it on the web, and let everyone use it.
 Nobody else can either. All I can do is submit it, wait, and hope. If Apple 
 doesn't like the app, for whatever reason, that's it, that's all she wrote. I 
 don't like that one bit, either as a developer
 or as a consumer.

You came close to owing me a new keyboard, as I just barely was able to 
contain a mouthful of tea when I read this.  You write an iPad app?  
Wouldn't you have to use a Mac for that?  (Seriously though, if you 
wanted to do it, I hear that there's a Mono iPhone SDK now.)

I didn't say you said horrible, but you did imply that they were bad, bad, bad, 
hence my use of quotes.  How is what you describe different from working 
on spec in any field?  You don't have exclusivity agreements with any of your 
retailers, who may also choose to stop promoting your product for any reason?  

 Sorry, but I don't consider either of these to be multitasking. Unless you 
 can have two arbitrary apps both RUNNING at the same time, it's not 
 multitasking.

Now you are moving the goal posts.  The definition that the rest of us 
use is that multitasking is the apparent simultaneous performance of 
two or more tasks by a computer.  So the iPhone OS devices do 
multitask for their most commonly used apps, one example being 
Safari + Music + Mail + Calendar.  And there effectively is multitasking 
for many more apps, since (for example) there is no functional difference 
between keeping a book app open while composing an email then 
returning to the book, as opposed to closing the book app, writing the 
email and opening the book app automatically at the page where it had 
been before.  That is not to say that it wouldn't be nice if the multitasking 
was a little more thorough, but that hasn't proven to be a big obstacle 
for Touch or iPhone adoption rates.  

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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-31 Thread Rev. Stewart Marshall


To be honest political discourse is ruing political discourse these days.

All people ever hear or listen to is sound bites.

If I actually believed what is said when I listen to sound bites I 
would be in big trouble.


Politicians speak in sound biteese.

Have you ever seen how some of those Senate speeches are given?  To 
an empty room, they no longer even listen to each other.


To have discourse you need to have a back and forth discussion.

Stewart


At 01:06 PM 1/31/2010, you wrote:

This is exactly the sort of sweeping generalization that's ruining 
political discourse in this country.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

Apologies, I let myself get away from myself.  I usually hit Tom's crazy
talk with hyperbole of my own.  I suppose the difference is, I know it's
hyperbole.  So to present company, no insult intended.

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Chris Dunford seed...@gmail.com wrote:

  I know freedom scares liberals like you, things like self reliance are
  frightening.

 Sorry, Mike, but this is unnecessary, incorrect, and insulting. You know
 I'm liberal. Do you seriously believe that I am frightened by self-reliance
 even though I've been self-employed for nearly
 thirty years? Or that I spend my time trying to figure out how to get more
 welfare and food stamps? Or that I somehow dislike freedom, or find it
 frightening? Come on.

 And lest you think I'm somehow unique, I can assure you that I am not. I
 don't know *any* liberal who thinks the way you seem to believe we do, and I
 know a *lot* of liberals, I promise you.

 This is exactly the sort of sweeping generalization that's ruining
 political discourse in this country.


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Jordan jor17...@gmail.com wrote:

 Can an ignorant person actually be making a choice?
 Or does ignorance preclude the possibility that a choice is being made?

  Wow, that's a tough one.  Just how ignorant are we taking about here?

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-31 Thread David K Watson

Not sure what point you're trying to make with the Air, but the primary 
concern with it was pretty obviously keeping down the weight without 
sacrificing performance, not saving money.  With USB on Macs, yes, 
nearly everything you expect to work with it does work with it, flash 
drives, printers (sometimes you have to install software first, but 
you already expect that), scanners (ditto), etc.  When some devise 
doesn't fully work, it usually can be blamed on the manufacturer's 
software, and you blame them, not Apple.  If the iPad had USB, 
even flash drives would have issues that conflicts with user 
expectations because of the iPad's storage scheme.  

And I didn't say that I knew for sure why Apple doesn't have 
extra ports, I said what I believed was a good reason.  Anyhow, 
it doesn't have to be THE reason, but (IMO) it probably is A reason, 
and one near the top of the list, at that.

 From:phartz...@gmail.com phartz...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?
 
 On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 9:21 PM, t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote:
 
 On Jan 30, 2010, at 5:30 PM, David K Watson wrote:
 
 While price was probably an issue, I don't myself think that it was
 the main one in Apple's decision to keep the physical interfaces
 to a minimum.  Apple likes to promote itself as the company whose
 devices just work, and if they had USB ports on the iPad then there
 would immediately be thousands of things that wouldn't work with it.
 By making sure that all input comes in wirelessly (where you have
 one set of expectations) or through the dock (where they have
 full control), Apple has a better chance of making sure that
 everything Just Works.
 
 
 Precisely right.
 
  Maybe.  Maybe not.  Is this why Apple did not include a CD/DVD drive
 in the Air?  Or, was that a size or pricing consideration or even
 analogous to Apple dropping floppy drives?  My iMac has USB.  Apple
 apparently was not concerned about things that wouldn't work with it
 in that instance.
 
  I do not think that any of us know for sure why Apple decided to
 exclude ports on the iPad.
 
  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?


On Jan 31, 2010, at 1:44 PM, b_s-wilk wrote:

nonstandard SIM slot


It is not non-standard. In is the next generation SIM.

Once again, some prefer to be clinging to the past.


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

This is interesting because a lot of people blame windows under this same
scenario.

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 1:03 PM, David K Watson
davidkirkwat...@gmail.comwrote:


  When some devise
 doesn't fully work, it usually can be blamed on the manufacturer's
 software, and you blame them, not Apple.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?


On Jan 31, 2010, at 12:56 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

Hey, isn't that thingy the mess of wires dragging around that you
were saying Apple eschews in their visions of the future, which by the
way, is like in the next five minutes or less.  Personally, I am never
in the future anyway, only in the present, and the present has ports
on most computers, and you know what, they get used.  I'll bet that
you are using at least one right now, or at least have it hooked up.


Yes it does look to be wisely limited to photo files. I agree with you  
that it looks like a mess. Maybe Apple will figure out that it is not  
necessary and it never ships.


Bottom line here is that WFBs reject any computer that is not infested  
with malware. They oppose all effective means of keeping malware off  
of computers. Apple wisely realizes that keeping their iPads and  
iPhones free of malware is a very important part of their success.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 3:19 PM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 Once again, some prefer to be clinging to the past.

  Clinging to the past or just guilty of using existing technology?

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-31 Thread Chris Dunford

 Apologies, I let myself get away from myself.  I usually hit Tom's crazy
 talk with hyperbole of my own.  I suppose the difference is, I know it's
 hyperbole.  So to present company, no insult intended.

Apology happily accepted.


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-31 Thread t.piwowar


On Jan 31, 2010, at 3:32 PM, mike wrote:
Yes in fact it is non-standard, take the glasses off and read a  
little more

about it.  Apple used this sim for the one purpose of not allowing the
standard sims to be placed in the device.  The micro sim is not a  
'thing of

the future' it is just a level of control


Gramps, dem dar new-fangled micro-SIMs have been around for 11 years  
and standardized 7 years ago.  And it is backwards compatible too.


The micro-SIM was developed by the European Telecommunications  
Standards Institute along with SCP, 3GPP (UTRAN/GERAN), 3GPP2  
(CDMA2000), ARIB, GSMAssociaton (GSMA SCaG and GSMNA), GlobalPlatform,  
Liberty Alliance, and the Open Mobile Alliance (OMA) for the purpose  
of fitting in into devices otherwise too small for a mini-SIM card.[4]  
[5] The form factor was mentioned in the Dec 1998 3GPP SMG9 UMTS  
Working Party which is the standards setting body for GSM SIM  
cards[6]and the form factor was agreed upon in late 2003


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro-SIM

And quit waving your cane at me!


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

Name someone in the US that is using them.  Anyone?  I'll give you a hint,
it's the maker of a GPS tracker for kids.  That's it.  I never said anything
regarding the length of time this has been out...12 years and it's still not
standard.  You are changing the point of what I said just enough to again
try and be 'right'.

On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 4:36 PM, t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 On Jan 31, 2010, at 3:32 PM, mike wrote:

 Yes in fact it is non-standard, take the glasses off and read a little
 more
 about it.  Apple used this sim for the one purpose of not allowing the
 standard sims to be placed in the device.  The micro sim is not a 'thing
 of
 the future' it is just a level of control


 Gramps, dem dar new-fangled micro-SIMs have been around for 11 years and
 standardized 7 years ago.  And it is backwards compatible too.

 The micro-SIM was developed by the European Telecommunications Standards
 Institute along with SCP, 3GPP (UTRAN/GERAN), 3GPP2 (CDMA2000), ARIB,
 GSMAssociaton (GSMA SCaG and GSMNA), GlobalPlatform, Liberty Alliance, and
 the Open Mobile Alliance (OMA) for the purpose of fitting in into devices
 otherwise too small for a mini-SIM card.[4] [5] The form factor was
 mentioned in the Dec 1998 3GPP SMG9 UMTS Working Party which is the
 standards setting body for GSM SIM cards[6]and the form factor was agreed
 upon in late 2003

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro-SIM

 And quit waving your cane at me!



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-31 Thread t.piwowar


On Jan 31, 2010, at 6:53 PM, mike wrote:
Name someone in the US that is using them.  Anyone?  I'll give you a  
hint,
it's the maker of a GPS tracker for kids.  That's it.  I never said  
anything
regarding the length of time this has been out...12 years and it's  
still not
standard.  You are changing the point of what I said just enough to  
again

try and be 'right'.


Dab gummet and it ain't got one of 'em UFO thingies too. Can't be any  
good.



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Re: [CGUYS] Apple's homepage for ipad...how long till they fix it? Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

Looks like Apple changed the image to remove the flash part.  Didn't take
long.

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 11:32 PM, David K Watson
davidkirkwat...@gmail.comwrote:

 Why is everyone making a big fuss about this?  The most likely
 explanation is that this is a production error, and Apple will have
 to fix it soon or get sued. It isn't surprising if this is the case,
 because Apple's well-known secrecy concerning upcoming
 product means that Marketing probably didn't get much
 information until the last minute, and some errors could slip
 through.  Remember the Polish MS ad that had a white guy
 photoshopped in a black guy's place?  This isn't any more
 stupid than that, and is a better photoshop job, too, if that's
 what it is.

 But there are several ways the apparent flash usages could be
 legitimate.  Tom has pointed out one, and an  idea I like because
 I seem to be the only one to have thought of it so far, is that the
 iPad isn't showing Safari in acton, but instead is showing the
 NYT reader app that was discussed briefly in the keynote.


 On Jan 29, 2010, at 8:15 PM, COMPUTERGUYS-L automatic digest system wrote:

  From:tjpa t...@tjpa.com
  Subject: Re: Apple's homepage for ipad...how long till they fix it? Re:
 [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?
 
  On Jan 29, 2010, at 6:46 PM, mike wrote:
  As reported on Engadget and other blogs, Apple is currently running
  a promo
  on their website for the ipad showing it running flash from
  Adobe..which it
  can't do.  So the ipad that can do it all, but not flash, has to lie
  about
  doing flash?  How long till Apple pulls it?
 
  How do you know that it is Flash and not HTML5? Both Safari 4 and
  FireFox 3.6 now support enough of HTML5 to handle this. If you use
  these up-to-date browsers you can even set your YouTube preferences to
  use HTML5 instead of Flash.
 
  There is now some debate about who ships buggier software with some
  proposing that Adobe has now pulled ahead of M$. Many report that
  using the FlashBlock add-on has greatly improved their browser
  performance and eliminated too-frequent crashes. Apple's message to
  Adobe is to clean up their act if they want access.
 
  WFBs may find frequent crashing just adds to the excitement, but not
  everyone does.
 


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Re: [CGUYS] Apple's homepage for ipad...how long till they fix it? Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?


On Jan 30, 2010, at 1:32 AM, David K Watson wrote:

Why is everyone making a big fuss about this?


Why did the wing nuts come up with death panels and Obamacare?  
Some people are uncontrollably attracted to doing evil. It infuriates  
them to see Apple hit yet another home run.



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Re: [CGUYS] Apple's homepage for ipad...how long till they fix it? Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

He has just gotten up to bat it remains to be seen whether or not he 
has hit a home run.


Wait till it goes on sale and then you can carp or eat crow.

Stewart



At 09:14 AM 1/30/2010, you wrote:

On Jan 30, 2010, at 1:32 AM, David K Watson wrote:

Why is everyone making a big fuss about this?


Why did the wing nuts come up with death panels and Obamacare?
Some people are uncontrollably attracted to doing evil. It infuriates
them to see Apple hit yet another home run.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?


On Jan 29, 2010, at 11:14 PM, b_s-wilk wrote:
Apple doesn't lead. They take mostly existing technology and make it  
better--sometimes. I worked for Apple. My cousin is an Apple  
engineer. Their PR is amazing, so is Steve Jobs' reality distortion  
field.


I think you are blinded by ideology. You only have to count the number  
of patents involved in this product to see lots and lots of small  
innovations and the whole product is one big innovation. If you were  
were following all the eReaders rolled out at CES earlier this month  
and compare them to the iPad you should be able to see that the iPad  
is far ahead of what anyone else was offering.


How about the white iBooks--Steve's white iBooks? They were  
disasters--more broken iBooks because of multiple design defects  
than most other Macs combined [burnt out mobos, bad displays], and  
almost 'impossible' to fix or upgrade yourself; have to remove 41  
screws just to open it.


Almost all my clients bought bunches of white iBooks for their  
editors. Typically we kept them in service for 5 to 6 years, only  
recently switching to Intel MacBooks. I saw a few hard drives go bad.  
One had the magnetic switch that detects lid closed go bad (fixed by  
snipping 1 wire). One got dropped onto concrete and the LCD shattered.  
I think they stood the test of time quite well. When we retired them  
folks were asking if they could buy them. And yes, I did make repairs  
on them. I can count to 41. But it was cheaper to send them to Apple  
to get them fixed by Apple's flat rate repair service. I don't know  
why you are grousing about a very nice laptop.


Making technology so that it's not at all backward compatible is  
hostile to the existing customers. Making portable technology so  
that it can't exist alone is more hostile. Making most Apple  
products sealed so that they're difficult to open and upgrade is  
again more hostile to consumers. [I need heavy duty suction cups and  
torx bits to open my iMac, while my G5 has an easy release handle?  
Can't change the battery in a MacBook Pro or iPhone--good for the  
consumer?] They're lucky that the OS is compelling enough to make  
some of those purchases worthwhile.


Again you are pining for the parallel port. Very few people want to  
take their computers apart. Service is easy to get and priced  
reasonably. Apple routinely waves fees and offers huge trade-in  
discounts. By giving up on making some of their products easy to open  
Apple reduced costs, made the product much smaller, and increased  
battery life. I think these are very fine trade offs that benefit the  
majority of their customers. I see no reason for Apple to cater to the  
tiny minority of do-it-your-selfers.


Your futuristic nightmare isn't for people who don't have unlimited  
budgets to buy new toys and peripherals every year, or who don't  
have businesses that can deduct the toys' cost in their taxes. No  
ports + odd SIM card + only ATT 3G US frequency = fewer sales.


Why should innovation stop just because you won't or can't pay for it?  
That's very self-centered. The rest of us want innovation. In fact we  
love innovation.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?


On Jan 29, 2010, at 11:28 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

Should I ditch my iMac right now because something is coming or is
already here that can supplant it?  Am I clinging to the past because
my iMac is only 2.4 GHz and actually has a CD/DVD drive as well as USB
and an already obsolete FireWire port?


Who said you should? I'm just enjoying a really exciting innovation.  
Maybe I'll buy v1, maybe I'll wait for v2, but at the $499 price the  
purchase is not that hard to consider.


 I thought you said at one time not so long ago that you still run,  
what was it, a G3?  WTF?


I retired all my G3s when the Tiger OS arrived. It just was not worth  
the trouble. Yes, I know enough about hardware to keep it ticking for  
a very long time, but I do know when its time has come. I still have a  
few G4s in service, but they will soon be sent to the recycle bin.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

Here is an interesting BBC News story about politics that I think has  
a close connection to how some are reacting to the iPad.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8474611.stm
Why do people often vote against their own interests?

Political scientist Dr David Runciman looks at why is there often  
such deep opposition to reforms that appear to be of obvious benefit  
to voters.
Right-wing politics has become a vehicle for channelling this popular  
anger against intellectual snobs.
It's like a French Revolution in reverse in which the workers come  
pouring down the street screaming more power to the aristocracy.


In other words, Apple's constant success and innovation inspires deep  
hatred merely because Apple is so successful. The more one explains  
how wonderful the iPad is, the more the opposition picks at it. They  
make fun of the name. They insist that it must have a parallel port.  
Etc. They cling to Windows Mobile and will be damned if they ever buy  
anything from Apple.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 10:50 AM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 On Jan 29, 2010, at 11:28 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

 Should I ditch my iMac right now because something is coming or is
 already here that can supplant it?  Am I clinging to the past because
 my iMac is only 2.4 GHz and actually has a CD/DVD drive as well as USB
 and an already obsolete FireWire port?

 Who said you should?

  Well, just last evening you told someone here on the list that to
want to have a computing device with a USB port is clinging to the
past and represents a means of transferring data or interfacing with a
computer that is on its way out.  You said that such a port is
something that one should no longer need, and that for a company,
Apple, to provide a device that is devoid of most, even perhaps all
popular and widely used contemporary interface ports is indicative of
how Apple leads the way.  What did you mean by that if not to imply
that devices that have such ports are obsolete or are nearly obsolete,
and to desire such is directly akin to wanting a floppy drive or a
parallel port, both of which went out many years ago and are not
contemporary at all?

  Personally, I think that Apple decided to make this new device
devoid of popular interfaces in order to be able to offer the iPad for
$499 as opposed to a higher price that was anticipated by most
potential consumers of the product.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 11:15 AM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 In other words, Apple's constant success and innovation inspires deep hatred
 merely because Apple is so successful.

  Microsoft Corporation has been far more successful than has Apple if
you measure success by the number of product users and dollars
generated through sales.  Microsoft also inspires this same so-called
hatred.  Such is often the fate of big companies.


The more one explains how wonderful
 the iPad is, the more the opposition picks at it. They make fun of the name.

  Who is making fun of the name?  I have only heard that many think
the name to be insensitive and/or perhaps ill advised.  Mad TV made a
joke of and made fun about the term iPad, but that was even before
Apple adopted it.


 They insist that it must have a parallel port.

  What?  Where do you get this from?


They cling to Windows
 Mobile and will be damned if they ever buy anything from Apple.

  This may be somewhat true, although numerous folks I know have
purchased and enjoy various Apple products, primarily the iPhone, the
iPod and the iPod Touch.  However, for the most part, those same folks
may swear that they will never have or use a Macintosh computer.  Go
figure.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-30 Thread betty

Again you are pining for the parallel port. Very few people want to take their
computers apart. Service is easy to get and priced reasonably. Apple
routinely waves
fees and offers huge trade-in discounts. By giving up on making some of their
products
easy to open Apple reduced costs, made the product much smaller, and
increased battery
life...

Your futuristic nightmare isn't for people who don't have unlimited budgets
to buy
new toys and peripherals every year, or who don't have businesses that can
deduct the
toys' cost in their taxes. No ports + odd SIM card + only ATT 3G US
frequency =
fewer sales.

Why should innovation stop just because you won't or can't pay for it? That's
very
self-centered. The rest of us want innovation. In fact we love innovation.

Spoken like a Windows FB who can't find the power switch. Parallel sucks, so did ADB.
People buy cheap computers because they're cheap, and expensive computers because they
should be better. Lots of us have friends who help with maintenance and repairs. Many
others, like me, work alone and either do their own repairs or have friends or user groups
who help. Repair shops are best avoided as dangerous to our wallets.

I buy Macs because they're [supposed to be] well designed and built. Apple touted ease of
replacing drives with the G4, G5, Mac Pros. They made it easy to swap out hard drives in
the notebooks to remedy hard drive shrinkage. Now notebooks are sealed--WTF??!!! Even a
novice can easily change the HD in an older MacBook. Changing RAM in a unibody MacBook Pro
could void the warranty? WTF?? Unibody reduced cost is BS--it increased the bottom line
for repair shops. After all, somebody has to open the notebooks, just not you.

Apple repaired our iBook 3 times, replacing the mobo and two displays. They didn't charge
the first two times, but charged a flat rate of around $300 the last time. Then the AC
charger DC in plug broke off in the port. I gave it to a friend who has two broken iBooks
[can't afford a new Mac] and wants to try to put together one that works. Many others had
similar problems--Apple had recalls on those issues.

As someone who has been on the leading edge of technology for years, I contrast the
difference between flashy and useful. The iPad is only flashy now. When it's released it
might be more attractive, but, for now, no. Looks more like Steve's last gasp.

Oh goody, a large unprotected glass tablet in a vulnerable pocket!! iPad vs. Rock -- rock
wins.

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Re: [CGUYS] Apple's homepage for ipad...how long till they fix it? Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

It's those evil dang neomicrosofticons!  The black helo's are coming to get
you Tom!

On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 8:14 AM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 On Jan 30, 2010, at 1:32 AM, David K Watson wrote:

 Why is everyone making a big fuss about this?


 Why did the wing nuts come up with death panels and Obamacare? Some
 people are uncontrollably attracted to doing evil. It infuriates them to see
 Apple hit yet another home run.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

What innovation?  It's a big ipod touch...literally.  That's all it is.  The
iPhone...now that you could say was innovative.  This is just making the
exact same thing larger.  That's hardly innovation.

On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 8:50 AM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote:


 Who said you should? I'm just enjoying a really exciting innovation. Maybe
 I'll buy v1, maybe I'll wait for v2, but at the $499 price the purchase is
 not that hard to consider.





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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-30 Thread Chris Dunford

 In other words, Apple's constant success and innovation inspires deep
 hatred merely because Apple is so successful.

You're projecting again. You hate MS, therefore we must hate Apple. Wrong. 

I have no hatred of Apple. I don't even dislike Apple. I think Mac, iPhone, 
and iPod are all exceptional products, and Apple in general has been truly 
innovative. But so far I've seen nothing that
makes me think iPad is either exceptional or particularly innovative. Time and 
experience may prove me wrong. Or it may not.

You can apply all the pop psychology you want, but that's really all there is 
to it.


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

Is it possible for you to make ANY sense?  This BBC article which I read
previously is one big sh*tpile, the author has no grasp on things like the
constitution and the people who believe in it.  Now anyone who doesn't like
something Apple does has a deep seated hatred for them...

You have become a sad caricature of yourself, Tom.  You go after Betty who
is an Apple lover when she *sees* something that is good but can look at
things clearly enough to be able to see problems and concerns with their
products.  I'm sure everyone on this list now realizes it's just a matter of
time before they disagree with dictator Tom and they have to deal with his
lashing out at them, calling names and being generally an idiot.  You've
driven intelligent people from this list in the past, keep it up and all
that will be here will be the sycophants...but you would probably like that.

On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 9:15 AM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 Here is an interesting BBC News story about politics that I think has a
 close connection to how some are reacting to the iPad.

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8474611.stm
 Why do people often vote against their own interests?

 Political scientist Dr David Runciman looks at why is there often such
 deep opposition to reforms that appear to be of obvious benefit to voters.
 Right-wing politics has become a vehicle for channelling this popular
 anger against intellectual snobs.
 It's like a French Revolution in reverse in which the workers come pouring
 down the street screaming more power to the aristocracy.

 In other words, Apple's constant success and innovation inspires deep
 hatred merely because Apple is so successful. The more one explains how
 wonderful the iPad is, the more the opposition picks at it. They make fun of
 the name. They insist that it must have a parallel port. Etc. They cling to
 Windows Mobile and will be damned if they ever buy anything from Apple.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-30 Thread Constance Warner

Very likely.  I agree with your point.  The lack of interfaces on the  
iPod probably saves a lot of money.


When they make a useful device, I'll save up my nickels and buy it.   
Since the main use I have for a small, light-weight portable computer  
is to write very large (novel-length) text documents on it,  
connectivity (via USB, firewire, or similar means) is essential, and  
the lack of it is an absolute deal-breaker.  The other functions are  
nice and I would have fun exploring them, but they're auxiliary to  
the main point: to have a first-class netbook device on which I can  
write absolutely anywhere--on the subway, on the bus, in the car (as  
a passenger), at my brother's place while waiting for everyone else  
to get ready to go somewhere, etc.


I won't care what the device is called.  They can call it iRat or  
iCockroach, for all I care.


So I'll be waiting patiently.  I just hope Apple's other customers  
are patient, too.


  Personally, I think that Apple decided to make this new device
devoid of popular interfaces in order to be able to offer the iPad for
$499 as opposed to a higher price that was anticipated by most
potential consumers of the product.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?


Actually I think Gary Trudeau was modeling his latest comic strip after Tom.

Stewart


At 11:26 AM 1/30/2010, you wrote:

Is it possible for you to make ANY sense?  This BBC article which I read
previously is one big sh*tpile, the author has no grasp on things like the
constitution and the people who believe in it.  Now anyone who doesn't like
something Apple does has a deep seated hatred for them...

You have become a sad caricature of yourself, Tom.  You go after Betty who
is an Apple lover when she *sees* something that is good but can look at
things clearly enough to be able to see problems and concerns with their
products.  I'm sure everyone on this list now realizes it's just a matter of
time before they disagree with dictator Tom and they have to deal with his
lashing out at them, calling names and being generally an idiot.  You've
driven intelligent people from this list in the past, keep it up and all
that will be here will be the sycophants...but you would probably like that.

On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 9:15 AM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 Here is an interesting BBC News story about politics that I think has a
 close connection to how some are reacting to the iPad.

 http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8474611.stm
 Why do people often vote against their own interests?

 Political scientist Dr David Runciman looks at why is there often such
 deep opposition to reforms that appear to be of obvious benefit to voters.
 Right-wing politics has become a vehicle for channelling this popular
 anger against intellectual snobs.
 It's like a French Revolution in reverse in which the workers come pouring
 down the street screaming more power to the aristocracy.

 In other words, Apple's constant success and innovation inspires deep
 hatred merely because Apple is so successful. The more one explains how
 wonderful the iPad is, the more the opposition picks at it. They 
make fun of

 the name. They insist that it must have a parallel port. Etc. They cling to
 Windows Mobile and will be damned if they ever buy anything from Apple.



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Re: [CGUYS] Apple's homepage for ipad...how long till they fix it? Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?


On Jan 30, 2010, at 12:13 PM, mike wrote:

It's those evil dang neomicrosofticons!


Necromicrosofticons.


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-30 Thread David K Watson

Chris, you're wrong or misleading on many of your criticisms of the 
iPad.  First, it's not a midsize touchscreen, it's a large size 
multitouch screen, one of the largest to be readily available.  You 
have to have some experience with multitouch devices, particularly 
Apple's, to really have the basis to appreciate how natural, useful 
and downright fun they are.  To get a very weak idea of what I 
mean, try using your mouse with the scroll wheel taped over 
to see how natural its use has become to you and how awkward 
it is to live without it.  Just because it's bigger, more gestures 
are practical on the the iPad than they were on the touch.  
If you're enthusiastic about Natal, then the iPad is Natal on 
glass.  

Regarding the lack of HD output, I'd really like it if someone would 
establish how important it really is for any mobile device.  For the 
Zune HD, what percentage of its owners buy the AV dock and what 
percentage of them regularly use it?  On Amazon, only 15 people 
have bothered to review the AV dock.  Rare teas can get more 
reviews than that.  For another example, I don't think any Android 
device has any kind of video output, much less HD.  Apparently 
no one saw a need there.  Even for regular video, I just don't 
understand why the Zune, Droid, etc., or iPad etc. should be thought 
of as a conduit or source for video to be consumed elsewhere 
instead of being the point of consumption.  It seems particularly 
dubious for the iPad, which occupies the same field of vision 
as a 22 diagonal laptop at their respective viewing distances.

The tech specs page says that the 3G iPad has assisted GPS, 
and the TomTom kit for the touch should work for the non-3G 
model, so you DO have GPS on all of the iPads, should you want 
it.   

Now, unless you're a hacker you do have to put your own music 
and video on the iPad using the iTunes application, but you could 
have gotten it from Amazon or Napster or Walmart (or any other 
place that provides non-DRMed AAC or MPEG files or actual physical 
CDs) before you imported it into iTunes, and there are no shortage 
of music and video streaming apps.  As for Apple's hoible 
app restrictions, I have to say that if they have allowed 140,000+ 
applications ranging from useless and/or disturbing apps like iFart 
and Fishbate (you don't really want to know) to things like Google 
Voice, then those restrictions can't be too severe.  Contrary to a 
lot of noise from people who were never going to buy anything 
Apple anyway, the app guidelines are actually fairly clear and 
are primarily designed to ensure application stability and user 
privacy.  The app approval process is much more akin to academic 
peer review than it is to Chinese censorship.  

Finally, it is untrue to say that iPhone OS devices don't multitask.  
To specifically address Reid's gripe earlier in this thread
(responding to a similar blanket statement by Mike), you CAN 
listen to music while you are in any other app that doesn't 
take over your headphones for its own use.  I routinely listen to 
music while surfing the web, composing a note or reading a book, etc.  
(btw, the Free Books app for books out of copyright is fantastic).  
While doing this, Mail and Calendar are working in the background 
as well.  Now, it would be true to say that the Touch, etc. don't have 
unlimited multitasking.  But that isn't the whole story either, because 
you can functionally have multitasking in many other cases, in the 
sense that if the app is well-written and you have to switch your attention 
to a different app, then everything is written to memory so you return 
to exactly the same state where you left off.  This doesn't work for 
streaming apps like the wxpn app, which is a small annoyance 
of mine, or for IM apps, which I think irritates Mike, but it seems 
that this is a make-or-break issue for relatively few people.  


 From:Chris Dunford seed...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?
 
 Anyone who is not intrigued by the iPad is just showing a lack of
 imagination.
 
 OK, why don't you tell us what's so intriguing about a midsize touchscreen 
 that has no HD, no widescreen, no camera, no USB, no memory card slots, and 
 no GPS, that can only get music and video from
 iTunes, that can only run what the suits at Apple say it can run, and 
 that--for God's sake, this is 2010--can't multitask.
 
 And before you start with your M$ minions BS again, check back in the 
 archives and look for where I've EVER said anything negative about Mac, 
 iPhone, or iPod. You won't find anything because there
 isn't anything to find. But this thing appears to be singularly uninspired 
 and uninspiring. 
 
 Maybe when it's actually delivered we'll see things differently. But for now, 
 I see nothing that makes my socks roll up and down.
 


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?


On Jan 30, 2010, at 11:28 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

Well, just last evening you told someone here on the list that to
want to have a computing device with a USB port is clinging to the
past and represents a means of transferring data or interfacing with a
computer that is on its way out.  You said that such a port is
something that one should no longer need, and that for a company,
Apple, to provide a device that is devoid of most, even perhaps all
popular and widely used contemporary interface ports is indicative of
how Apple leads the way.  What did you mean by that if not to imply
that devices that have such ports are obsolete or are nearly obsolete,
and to desire such is directly akin to wanting a floppy drive or a
parallel port, both of which went out many years ago and are not
contemporary at all?


All that is true, but where did I say you should rush out and get one?

I think you don't remember the angst Apple caused when the Mac had an  
AppleTalk port instead of parallel. Ditto for the 3-1/2 floppy. Ditto  
for mice. Ditto when they dropped floppies. Ditto when they were the  
first with USB. Ditto for FireWire. Ditto for auto-sensing Ethernet.  
And probably a few others too. Every time people reacted exactly as  
you just did.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?


On Jan 30, 2010, at 11:59 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

Microsoft Corporation has been far more successful than has Apple if
you measure success by the number of product users and dollars
generated through sales.  Microsoft also inspires this same so-called
hatred.  Such is often the fate of big companies.


They also sold more MP3 players that were brown.

Apple is more profitable, which is the only measure that counts.

Apple is also the company the industry follows. M$ makes the industry  
move by chasing them with a cudgel. They are hated for very different  
reasons.



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Re: [CGUYS] Apple's homepage for ipad...how long till they fix it? Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

No, neo...that way it includes all those scary imaginary people you are
always carping about.

On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 2:30 PM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 On Jan 30, 2010, at 12:13 PM, mike wrote:

 It's those evil dang neomicrosofticons!


 Necromicrosofticons.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-30 Thread David K Watson

While price was probably an issue, I don't myself think that it was 
the main one in Apple's decision to keep the physical interfaces 
to a minimum.  Apple likes to promote itself as the company whose 
devices just work, and if they had USB ports on the iPad then there 
would immediately be thousands of things that wouldn't work with it.  
By making sure that all input comes in wirelessly (where you have 
one set of expectations) or through the dock (where they have
full control), Apple has a better chance of making sure that
everything Just Works.  

The same issues crop up (albeit to a lesser degree) with 
regards to the lack of a memory card slot.  SD cards are used 
for more things than just photo files now, and many files that you 
could have on the card wouldn't work on the iPad.  Also, how 
would you manage those files?  The way things work right now, 
each app is in charge of its own content.  Games on the Wii 
manage files in a similar way, and while the Wii does have 
a SD slot, managing files between the Wii and an SD card 
is cumbersome.  Apple could likely improve on this, but they 
probably made the call that users would mostly be willing to 
wait until they sync with their computer, something that they 
will regularly do anyway. 


 From:phartz...@gmail.com phartz...@gmail.com
 Subject: Re: You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?
 
 


  Personally, I think that Apple decided to make this new device
 devoid of popular interfaces in order to be able to offer the iPad for
 $499 as opposed to a higher price that was anticipated by most
 potential consumers of the product.
 
  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-30 Thread Chris Dunford

 Chris, you're wrong or misleading on many of your criticisms of the
 iPad.  First, it's not a midsize touchscreen, it's a large size
 multitouch screen, one of the largest to be readily available.  You
 have to have some experience with multitouch devices, particularly
 Apple's, to really have the basis to appreciate how natural, useful
 and downright fun they are. 

David, sorry, but I have plenty of experience with multitouch devices. Of the 
two I have now, the SMALL one is 12 (and they're both 16:9, by the way, not 
4:3 like iPad). The iPad's touchscreen is
incontrovertibly midsize.

 Regarding the lack of HD output, I'd really like it if someone would
 establish how important it really is for any mobile device.

I think it's silly to bring out any non-toy video device in 2010 without HD 
capabilities.

 The tech specs page says that the 3G iPad has assisted GPS,
 and the TomTom kit for the touch should work for the non-3G
 model, so you DO have GPS on all of the iPads, should you want
 it.

Extra cost for GPS either way. 

As for Apple's hoible
 app restrictions, I have to say that if they have allowed 140,000+
 applications ranging from useless and/or disturbing apps like iFart
 and Fishbate (you don't really want to know) to things like Google
 Voice, then those restrictions can't be too severe.

Well, I didn't say anything about horrible app restrictions. But it IS a 
restriction, and a significant one, in my view. I can't write an iPad app, post 
it on the web, and let everyone use it.
Nobody else can either. All I can do is submit it, wait, and hope. If Apple 
doesn't like the app, for whatever reason, that's it, that's all she wrote. I 
don't like that one bit, either as a developer
or as a consumer.

 Finally, it is untrue to say that iPhone OS devices don't multitask.
 To specifically address Reid's gripe earlier in this thread
 (responding to a similar blanket statement by Mike), you CAN
 listen to music while you are in any other app that doesn't
 take over your headphones for its own use.  I routinely listen to
 music while surfing the web, composing a note or reading a book, etc.
 (btw, the Free Books app for books out of copyright is fantastic).
 While doing this, Mail and Calendar are working in the background
 as well.  Now, it would be true to say that the Touch, etc. don't have
 unlimited multitasking.  But that isn't the whole story either, because
 you can functionally have multitasking in many other cases, in the
 sense that if the app is well-written and you have to switch your attention
 to a different app, then everything is written to memory so you return
 to exactly the same state where you left off.

Sorry, but I don't consider either of these to be multitasking. Unless you can 
have two arbitrary apps both RUNNING at the same time, it's not multitasking.


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 4:43 PM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 All that is true, but where did I say you should rush out and get one?

  You didn't, thus that is not what I was responding to or talking about.


 I think you don't remember the angst Apple caused when the Mac had an
 AppleTalk port instead of parallel. Ditto for the 3-1/2 floppy. Ditto for
 mice. Ditto when they dropped floppies. Ditto when they were the first with
 USB. Ditto for FireWire. Ditto for auto-sensing Ethernet. And probably a few
 others too. Every time people reacted exactly as you just did.

  I was not reacting to anything that Apple did or did not do.  I was
querying you about why you were telling someone that wanting to have a
USB port is a symptom of clinging to the past, seemingly some kind
of disorder in your view, and also represented a means of data
transfer that one should no longer need.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 4:46 PM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 On Jan 30, 2010, at 11:59 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

 Microsoft Corporation has been far more successful than has Apple if
 you measure success by the number of product users and dollars
 generated through sales.  Microsoft also inspires this same so-called
 hatred.  Such is often the fate of big companies.


 Apple is more profitable, which is the only measure that counts.

  That is one measure that counts.  There are others.


 Apple is also the company the industry follows. M$ makes the industry move
 by chasing them with a cudgel. They are hated for very different reasons.

  I agree with your view of the influence that Apple has upon the
computer manufacturing industry.  However, and while this does not
negate the previous sentence, most computer buyers still prefer to
use, by a wide margin, computers that run under Windows as opposed to
the Mac OS.

  There is nothing wrong with being the underdog in terms of bigness.
Many folks just love the underdogs of the world, myself included.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

Lets agree on one things.  Apple is a hardware company.  MS is a 
software company.


MS will never design nor build computers and devices as slick as 
Apple as I do not believe that they invest the amount of money in 
them that Apple does.  MS makes some good peripherals, like mice, 
keyboards and similar.


MS will not come up with Iphones, Ipods, Ipads etc. as they do not 
invest that type of money on the hardware. (The Zune has not been 
that great, but it has not been that bad.  And brown is not a turn 
off to me, white is.))


Apple does, they are a leading designer of new hardware items.  I 
think the reason a lot of people were disappointed with the Ipad is 
that it did not live up to it's hype.  It was not innovative, just an 
enlarged Ipod.  I think they expected something a little more daring 
from Steve.


The final verdict on all this will be when the rubber hits the road 
and the product hits main street.  Not just the initial buy in (There 
are always those who will buy it right away) but in sustained sales.


The Iphone is still one of the largest selling smartphones out there, 
but it has had to go through three generations to continue.


A lot of things still remain to be seen.

Stewart

At 05:46 PM 1/30/2010, you wrote:

  I agree with your view of the influence that Apple has upon the
computer manufacturing industry.  However, and while this does not
negate the previous sentence, most computer buyers still prefer to
use, by a wide margin, computers that run under Windows as opposed to
the Mac OS.

  There is nothing wrong with being the underdog in terms of bigness.
Many folks just love the underdogs of the world, myself included.

  Steve



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-30 Thread t.piwowar


On Jan 30, 2010, at 4:26 PM, David K Watson wrote:

As for Apple's hoible
app restrictions, I have to say that if they have allowed 140,000+
applications ranging from useless and/or disturbing apps like iFart
and Fishbate (you don't really want to know) to things like Google
Voice, then those restrictions can't be too severe.  Contrary to a
lot of noise from people who were never going to buy anything
Apple anyway, the app guidelines are actually fairly clear and
are primarily designed to ensure application stability and user
privacy.  The app approval process is much more akin to academic
peer review than it is to Chinese censorship.


I read recently about an app loaded onto a smartphone that did not  
have a review/approval process in place. The app did all sorts of  
mischief leading to huge bills for the poor sap who downloaded it. It  
think a large part of Apple's approval process is trying to prevent  
such problems.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-30 Thread t.piwowar


On Jan 30, 2010, at 6:46 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

However, and while this does not
negate the previous sentence, most computer buyers still prefer to
use, by a wide margin, computers that run under Windows as opposed to
the Mac OS.


False. People who have a real free choice very rarely pick Windows.


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-30 Thread t.piwowar


On Jan 30, 2010, at 6:30 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

 I was not reacting to anything that Apple did or did not do.  I was
querying you about why you were telling someone that wanting to have a
USB port is a symptom of clinging to the past, seemingly some kind
of disorder in your view, and also represented a means of data
transfer that one should no longer need.


I close my eyes and imagine you walking around with your ideal iPad. A  
dozen cables snaking their way to the floor and various peripheral  
boxes clanking as you drag them behind.


That is not how Apple views the future.


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?


Who feeds you this nonsense?

I carry my netbook around in a small pouch (similar in size to an Ipad)

I can plug my camera card in, no problem.

Plug my memory stick in no problem.

Want to do a PPT presentation, hook it up to the video projector all 
without carrying an extra cord, dongle, plug in etc.


To do that with the Ipad, I would have to carry a small pouch just 
for the accessories.


Stewart



At 08:47 PM 1/30/2010, you wrote:
I close my eyes and imagine you walking around with your ideal iPad. A

dozen cables snaking their way to the floor and various peripheral
boxes clanking as you drag them behind.

That is not how Apple views the future.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

Tom imagines a lot...now he is imagining a world where everyone is
controlled.  Typically, people like this are really the ones being
controlled...as Apple does to it's users.

On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 7:40 PM, t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 On Jan 30, 2010, at 6:46 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

 However, and while this does not
 negate the previous sentence, most computer buyers still prefer to
 use, by a wide margin, computers that run under Windows as opposed to
 the Mac OS.


 False. People who have a real free choice very rarely pick Windows.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

Link?  Second time I've asked you to back up an assertion...you ignored the
first time, got a link this time?  How about we agree that even if this did
happen, at least that phone vendor doesn't assume all it's customers are
stupid as Apple assumes all it's customers are morons not able to make
choices for themselves.

On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 7:32 PM, t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote:


 I read recently about an app loaded onto a smartphone that did not have a
 review/approval process in place. The app did all sorts of mischief leading
 to huge bills for the poor sap who downloaded it. It think a large part of
 Apple's approval process is trying to prevent such problems.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-29 Thread phartz...@gmail.com

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 12:41 AM, Rev. Stewart Marshall
revsamarsh...@earthlink.net wrote:

 I have SEEN Obama compared to a lot of things, but never a Mac.

  I was experiencing a silly moment.  The equation I was trying to
make was one of how expectations are often not met.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-29 Thread phartz...@gmail.com

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 1:27 AM, mike xha...@gmail.com wrote:

 I'm trying to think of when, Jobs has brought out a device to show the mac
 faithful, that when it was released a few months later it was different...

  The iPad was not brought out solely for the Mac faithful.  That
group is but one target.  Many folks who swear that they would NEVER
own a Macintosh computer gravitate to numerous other Apple products
and like them just fine.  I'd be willing to bet that, over time, many
more iPads will be purchased by people who will never even have their
hands on a Macintosh computer keyboard that by Mac enthusiasts.  In
fact, now that I think about it a little bit, of all the folks I know
who have an iPhone, there is but one who has a Macintosh computer, and
he did not get that computer until after he had the iPhone.

  I do not really know if any of the above has any significance, but
those are mostly the facts as I know them to be.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-29 Thread Jordan



A new improved model could be called a Maxipad.

:-)

Perhaps because of its ability to absorb so much umdata.


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-29 Thread Jordan


phartz...@gmail.com wrote:


  It's simple:  try this i (change), etc.  The idea of Obama always
was government for the rest of us.  Too simple, and isn't working.

  Steve

  

It's not working because he's not doing it.


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-29 Thread John Duncan Yoyo

On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 10:50 AM, Chris Dunford seed...@gmail.com wrote:

  Too bad so far it is only a really big iPod Touch which is OK but it
 ain't a
  game changer.  The bookreader is a color Kindle with higher prices


BTW I meant Higher book prices.  I think as soon as the Kindle app hits the
iPad Apple will need to come down but apparently the publishers get to set
the pricing.  I wonder if the music industry has talked to apple yet.


 And without digital ink.

 Everything I have heard about color e-Ink is that is really slow.  If you
want color you don't want e-ink, yet.

 I like the idea of a black and white e-ink screen and a touch screen on the
same device but it has to be done right.  I want to handle one with the form
factor of two facing pages in a book like shape.  I've only seen a kindle up
close once and had a quick look at the NookEBook at a Barnes and Noble.  The
nook looked too small.

I just hope the price war comes soon.
-- 
John Duncan Yoyo
---o)


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?


On Jan 29, 2010, at 7:57 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

 I was experiencing a silly moment.  The equation I was trying to
make was one of how expectations are often not met.


M$ is already referring to it as a DeathPanel.


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?


On Jan 29, 2010, at 12:29 AM, b_s-wilk wrote:
Dock isn't portable. Needs to be plugged in. What if I want to use a  
flash drive or SD card? Sleek and stylish? Not with a dock and a  
bunch of cables.


Mine is a skinny little cable about 2 feet long. How is that not  
portable? And if both the computer and iPad has bluetooth do I really  
want a cable?


Maybe SD is a thing of the past. New cameras are starting to  
incorporate bluetooth for data transfer.


This is similar to the hyperventilating I saw when Apple switched from  
5-1/4 to 3-1/2 inch disk drives or when they dropped floppy disks  
entirely.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?


On Jan 28, 2010, at 10:15 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

It is possible that this new device just unveiled may fail to meet
Apple's own expectations as well as those of their prospective
customers.  A lot of folks are saying, After all the hype, this is
it?  Time will tell.


The M$ minions are rushing out to insist that what we really need is  
Windows Mobile.


Anyone who is not intrigued by the iPad is just showing a lack of  
imagination.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

Gotta link?

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 7:27 AM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 On Jan 28, 2010, at 10:15 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote:

 It is possible that this new device just unveiled may fail to meet
 Apple's own expectations as well as those of their prospective
 customers.  A lot of folks are saying, After all the hype, this is
 it?  Time will tell.


 The M$ minions are rushing out to insist that what we really need is
 Windows Mobile.

 Anyone who is not intrigued by the iPad is just showing a lack of
 imagination.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?


On Jan 29, 2010, at 9:01 AM, John Duncan Yoyo wrote:

 I want to handle one with the form
factor of two facing pages in a book like shape.  I've only seen a  
kindle up
close once and had a quick look at the NookEBook at a Barnes and  
Noble.  The

nook looked too small.


The reason most books are of a certain size is convenience.

Back around 1501 Aldus Manutius wanted to standardize on a book format  
that gentlemen of leisure could easily transport in a pocket or a  
satchel...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldus_Manutius

That's was an octavio format, which is about 9 x 6 inches.

iPad is about  9-1/2 x 7-1/2. Wisdom of the ages?


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?


On Jan 28, 2010, at 8:39 PM, Constance Warner wrote:
Don't be silly.  All the items you cite are paired with something  
other than a single letter.


So you object to the single letter? Now who is being silly?


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

The fact this doesn't have any ports is just further proof this is really
just a giant ipod touch.

Another thing that I'm not sure has been addressed in general...if I have a
kindle, and I buy an ipad..do I have to re-buy all those kindle books
again?  What if I buy a Nook and then a kindle?  Are customers buying books
or are they only renting them?

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 7:25 AM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 On Jan 29, 2010, at 12:29 AM, b_s-wilk wrote:

 Dock isn't portable. Needs to be plugged in. What if I want to use a flash
 drive or SD card? Sleek and stylish? Not with a dock and a bunch of cables.


 Mine is a skinny little cable about 2 feet long. How is that not portable?
 And if both the computer and iPad has bluetooth do I really want a cable?

 Maybe SD is a thing of the past. New cameras are starting to incorporate
 bluetooth for data transfer.

 This is similar to the hyperventilating I saw when Apple switched from
 5-1/4 to 3-1/2 inch disk drives or when they dropped floppy disks entirely.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?


On Jan 28, 2010, at 8:33 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:
On the last part we will have to disagree.  As I type this on my  
netbook, with a video out, 3 USB ports, and a SD card reader built  
in.  (6 hours battery with wifi.)


Netbooks will be seen the 8-track tape players of the early 21st  
century.


The iPad comes with bluetooth and WiFi plus optional 3G and you  
complain that you can't have a bunch of wires dangling from it. This  
is silly. It does not have a floppy drive either. Boohoo.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-29 Thread John Duncan Yoyo

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 9:25 AM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 On Jan 29, 2010, at 12:29 AM, b_s-wilk wrote:

 Dock isn't portable. Needs to be plugged in. What if I want to use a flash
 drive or SD card? Sleek and stylish? Not with a dock and a bunch of cables.


 Mine is a skinny little cable about 2 feet long. How is that not portable?
 And if both the computer and iPad has bluetooth do I really want a cable?

 Maybe SD is a thing of the past. New cameras are starting to incorporate
 bluetooth for data transfer.

 This is similar to the hyperventilating I saw when Apple switched from
 5-1/4 to 3-1/2 inch disk drives or when they dropped floppy disks entirely.

 You can get an SD card with built in WI-FI as well.
-- 
John Duncan Yoyo
---o)


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

There were four or five formats called Octavio, I suppose keeping it the
size of a 'book', Apple was bound to hit close to one of them.

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 7:47 AM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 On Jan 29, 2010, at 9:01 AM, John Duncan Yoyo wrote:

  I want to handle one with the form
 factor of two facing pages in a book like shape.  I've only seen a kindle
 up
 close once and had a quick look at the NookEBook at a Barnes and Noble.
  The
 nook looked too small.


 The reason most books are of a certain size is convenience.

 Back around 1501 Aldus Manutius wanted to standardize on a book format that
 gentlemen of leisure could easily transport in a pocket or a satchel...
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldus_Manutius

 That's was an octavio format, which is about 9 x 6 inches.

 iPad is about  9-1/2 x 7-1/2. Wisdom of the ages?



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-29 Thread David D Odell

Is it just me or does the iPad (finally) look like the flatscreen tablets
predicted in Kubrick's 2001?

http://cecelia.physics.indiana.edu/life/chess.jpg


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-29 Thread Stewart Marshall

I am not interested in 3G I pay enough for hookups as it is right now 
(Phone, cable, Cell plan) that I will not pay for another plan.


As nice as it would be no way.

I just had to cancel what I hoped would be a good DSL connection 
because they can only top out at 4mps.  The infrastructure will not 
allow them to do more?


I cant get a local VOIP number and my cable company does not offer 
it.  (We have a competitor moving into town but no idea when they 
will run service my way.)


So at present I pay over $400 per month staying connected and you 
want me to add a 3G plan on top of that?


Stewart


At 08:56 AM 1/29/2010, you wrote:

On Jan 28, 2010, at 8:33 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:

On the last part we will have to disagree.  As I type this on my
netbook, with a video out, 3 USB ports, and a SD card reader built
in.  (6 hours battery with wifi.)


Netbooks will be seen the 8-track tape players of the early 21st
century.

The iPad comes with bluetooth and WiFi plus optional 3G and you
complain that you can't have a bunch of wires dangling from it. This
is silly. It does not have a floppy drive either. Boohoo.


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

Or does it look like an HP tablet?

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 8:21 AM, David D Odell waffenf...@atlanticbb.netwrote:

 Is it just me or does the iPad (finally) look like the flatscreen tablets
 predicted in Kubrick's 2001?

 http://cecelia.physics.indiana.edu/life/chess.jpg


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?


On Jan 29, 2010, at 9:48 AM, mike wrote:
The fact this doesn't have any ports is just further proof this is  
really

just a giant ipod touch.


Which is absolutely wonderful. The iPhone/iTouch have revolutionized  
how people use computers.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?


Prediction: Business suits will start to have cargo pants pockets.

Thomas Pink already sells ties with a Nano pouch.


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

I heard a tech reporter say 'who needs 3g, wifi is almost everywhere'.
Where do these people live?


On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 8:37 AM, Stewart Marshall 
revsamarsh...@earthlink.net wrote:

 I am not interested in 3G I pay enough for hookups as it is right now
 (Phone, cable, Cell plan) that I will not pay for another plan.

 As nice as it would be no way.

 I just had to cancel what I hoped would be a good DSL connection because
 they can only top out at 4mps.  The infrastructure will not allow them to do
 more?

 I cant get a local VOIP number and my cable company does not offer it.  (We
 have a competitor moving into town but no idea when they will run service my
 way.)

 So at present I pay over $400 per month staying connected and you want me
 to add a 3G plan on top of that?

 Stewart



 At 08:56 AM 1/29/2010, you wrote:

 On Jan 28, 2010, at 8:33 PM, Rev. Stewart Marshall wrote:

 On the last part we will have to disagree.  As I type this on my
 netbook, with a video out, 3 USB ports, and a SD card reader built
 in.  (6 hours battery with wifi.)


 Netbooks will be seen the 8-track tape players of the early 21st
 century.

 The iPad comes with bluetooth and WiFi plus optional 3G and you
 complain that you can't have a bunch of wires dangling from it. This
 is silly. It does not have a floppy drive either. Boohoo.


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-29 Thread Stewart Marshall

The problem I see is that we are being asked to pay dearly for 
connectivity and everyone wants a piece of the action.


Buy a device pay for a connection plan.

I do not want to do all that.

I would like to consolidate some of my connection plans so I am not 
paying so much.


Stewart


At 09:45 AM 1/29/2010, you wrote:

I heard a tech reporter say 'who needs 3g, wifi is almost everywhere'.
Where do these people live?



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?


On Jan 29, 2010, at 10:45 AM, mike wrote:

I heard a tech reporter say 'who needs 3g, wifi is almost everywhere'.
Where do these people live?


Near a McDonalds.


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-29 Thread Chris Dunford

 Anyone who is not intrigued by the iPad is just showing a lack of
 imagination.

OK, why don't you tell us what's so intriguing about a midsize touchscreen that 
has no HD, no widescreen, no camera, no USB, no memory card slots, and no GPS, 
that can only get music and video from
iTunes, that can only run what the suits at Apple say it can run, and that--for 
God's sake, this is 2010--can't multitask.

And before you start with your M$ minions BS again, check back in the 
archives and look for where I've EVER said anything negative about Mac, iPhone, 
or iPod. You won't find anything because there
isn't anything to find. But this thing appears to be singularly uninspired and 
uninspiring. 

Maybe when it's actually delivered we'll see things differently. But for now, I 
see nothing that makes my socks roll up and down.


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-29 Thread Constance Warner

No, I'm not OBJECTING to anything.  I'm just pointing out that for 50 
+ per cent of the population, calling something a pad without a  
modifier (word, adjective, etc.) up front (e.g. lily pad, launch pad,  
mattress pad) inevitably raises mental pictures of a certain kind.   
If anything, the single letter i just intensifies the mental  
picture, because it turns pad into a really big, official deal,  
reinforced by tons of Madison Avenue hoopla.


Pad also raises other mental pictures of a less sensitive sort, and  
there are other names for feminine sanitary supplies that I won't go  
into here.


Frankly, I think it's hilarious.  The only dismaying aspect is that  
Apple seems to have been blind to the way the name of a major product  
would resonate with 50 per cent of the population--women.  It makes  
computing look like a boys' club thing, with no girls allowed.  Which  
is really odd--I thought they wanted to sell as much product as they  
could, to as many customers as possible.


As I said, a marketing blunder.

On Jan 29, 2010, at 9:48 AM, tjpa wrote:


On Jan 28, 2010, at 8:39 PM, Constance Warner wrote:
Don't be silly.  All the items you cite are paired with something  
other than a single letter.


So you object to the single letter? Now who is being silly?


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

Still waiting for you link...

On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 9:04 AM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote:

 On Jan 29, 2010, at 10:45 AM, mike wrote:

 I heard a tech reporter say 'who needs 3g, wifi is almost everywhere'.
 Where do these people live?


 Near a McDonalds.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-29 Thread Constance Warner


Amen to that.

I'm concerned that the cost of basic participation in the workforce-- 
and in society--is going up, with every new device we're expected to  
acquire and support.  For example, when I go in for my next job  
interview, will I be expected to have a smartphone, a blackberry, or  
other fancy communications devices--because everybody there has one,  
and it's one of those marks of status (like a good job-interview  
suit) that you've got to have to impress the prospective employer?   
Do I have to have watched the latest, most fashionable cable shows,  
or be thought a rube?


This might sound silly, but we're constantly told that it's the  
impression you make at a job interview--that you are LIKE the people  
who are doing the hiring, and that you look like someone who would be  
their friend--that counts most.  And I hope that if/when I actually  
land that job, my boss doesn't expect to be in constant communication  
with me on a Blackberry or iPhone I can't possibly afford on what he  
pays me.  I've had to take jobs like that before, where the pay was  
nearly wiped out by the overhead costs of working there, and with  
expensive communications devices to support, the price to the  
employee is going up.


Actually, the job interview thing is a bit optimistic--these days,  
you're VERY LUCKY to get a job interview, let alone a job.


On Jan 29, 2010, at 10:51 AM, Stewart Marshall wrote:

The problem I see is that we are being asked to pay dearly for  
connectivity and everyone wants a piece of the action.


Buy a device pay for a connection plan.

I do not want to do all that.

I would like to consolidate some of my connection plans so I am not  
paying so much.


Stewart


At 09:45 AM 1/29/2010, you wrote:
I heard a tech reporter say 'who needs 3g, wifi is almost  
everywhere'.

Where do these people live?



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-29 Thread Reid Katan


Quoting David D Odell waffenf...@atlanticbb.net:


Is it just me or does the iPad (finally) look like the flatscreen tablets
predicted in Kubrick's 2001?


I'm just wondering how long it will be 'til we're all poking and  
stroking our iDesks (a la LCARS http://www.lcarscom.net/). Tapping  
on the object that you want, rather than using a mouse to drive a  
pointer around, seems a bit more intuitive, but reaching up to poke 'n  
stroke your monitor all day doesn't seem particularly ergonomic.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-29 Thread Snyder, Mark - IdM (IS)

Apple prefaced the names with I for internet, when most things internet were 
lower-case.  Internet was shiny new for many consumers in the 1990's.  They 
have continues with this branding.

Thank you, 
Mark Snyder 
-Original Message-
From: Computer Guys Discussion List [mailto:computerguy...@listserv.aol.com] On 
Behalf Of phartz...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 8:15 PM
To: COMPUTERGUYS-L@LISTSERV.AOL.COM
Subject: Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 7:31 PM, Reid Katan ka...@his.com wrote:

 Quoting phartz...@gmail.com phartz...@gmail.com:

  On the same tangent, I am still trying to find out what the i part
 of their various names is supposed to refer to.

 My guess would be iNternet, but what do iKnow. What was the first iName
 anyway? iMac?

  I suspect that Apple took the i thing from the high-end automotive
industry.  A number of years ago, BMW and one or two other makers of
very costly, posh and status symbol cars began placing an i before
or at the end the model number of the car.  The i was in reference
to injection, as in fuel injection.  Of course, there is no fuel
injection involved in the operation of computing devices as far as I
know, but there is some smugness and snobbishness in the computing
world as in the car world.  The automotive world caused the letter i
to become equated with luxury and expensiveness and status when
coupled with a car name or model number, and that equation stuck with
much of the public.  Perhaps Apple decided that was a good way to go
as far as marketing was concerned, so they decided to use the letter
i in a similar fashion although it actually held no meaning
whatsoever.  Of course, this is all just a guess on my part although
after the car industry began this i thing, various companies started
doing it, even prior to Apple getting on board.  Today there are many
companies that tack the lower case i to their product names.

  Steve


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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-29 Thread Stewart Marshall

Apple has fond a marketing niche with the i format.  McDonald's has 
done it with the Mc format.  (I read about a lawsuit recently where 
they are attempting to shut down a young ladies fund raising 
organization as it uses the Mc format for their name)


It makes someone identify with them whenever they hear the i moniker.

The question comes up did they do enough research about the name 
before hand and did they have the right people involved.  Right now 
it does not seem so.


I read an article where Fuji has had an ipad for some time now, and 
the English (Irish and others) are not too happy as it can be 
confusing in dialects.


I know it is impossible to please 100% of the people 100% of the 
time.  (remember what my job is)


However I think the name could have used a lot more research than it 
looks like it got.


Stewart


At 01:04 PM 1/29/2010, you wrote:
Apple prefaced the names with I for internet, when most things 
internet were lower-case.  Internet was shiny new for many consumers 
in the 1990's.  They have continues with this branding.


Thank you,
Mark Snyder



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?

2010-01-29 Thread b_s-wilk


Still waiting for you link...


 I heard a tech reporter say 'who needs 3g, wifi is almost everywhere'.
 Where do these people live?


 Near a McDonalds.



McDonald's WiFi will be free like obesity starting January -- Engadget
http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/16/mcdonalds-wifi-will-be-free-like-obesity-in-january/

McDonald's starts dishing out free WiFi at most of its U.S. restaurants 
-- Engadget

http://www.engadget.com/2010/01/15/mcdonalds-starts-dishing-out-free-wifi-at-most-of-its-u-s-rest/

The McCafe coffee is OK. I order cappuccino, double shot of espresso, no 
syrup or sugar, just steamed milk. I get a separate cup of ice in the 
summer to make my own iced coffee.



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Re: [CGUYS] You Saw the Demo? Are you impressed?