Re: Tools for online meetups and conferences

[Ross Gardler]

At work I teleconference about 50% of my meetings, often with people in 
bandwidth constrained environments. There are only two truly reliable platforms 
in my experience. Zoom and Teams. Everything else seems to have connectivity 
issues for at least one participant. Hangouts is pretty good in a "broadcast" 
scenario, i.e. one person speaking at a time, but I don't find it reliable in a 
meeting scenario. If you really want to meet many people in a broadcast 
scenario I think people should be looking to Twitch, Mixer or YouTube 
Streaming. All three have been proven to work with large numbers of watchers - 
though I have no personal experience.

I'll not list the ones that don't work in my experience, but I've not seen them 
mentioned in this thread yet (I've not used OpenMeetings in anything other than 
a quick test).

Ross



From: Tomasz Urbaszek 
Sent: Saturday, March 14, 2020 6:10 AM
To: dev
Subject: Re: Tools for online meetups and conferences

There's also an interesting possibility for G Suite users:

> Through July 1, 2020, G Suite customers can use advanced Hangouts Meet video 
> conference features like larger meetings (up to 250 participants), live 
> streaming, and recording.

https://support.google.com/meet/answer/9760270?hl=en

T.


On Wed, Mar 11, 2020 at 6:13 PM Tomasz Urbaszek  wrote:
>
> There's a whole list of interesting tools:
> https://techagainstcoronavirus.com
>
> T.
>
> On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 3:25 PM Martijn Dashorst  
> wrote:
>>
>> The VJUG (Virtual Java User Group) does this all the time. AFAIK they use
>> youtube streaming.
>>
>> https://virtualjug.com
>>
>> Martijn
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 2:27 PM Tomasz Urbaszek 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > The current situation with COVID19 pushes a lot of conferences and
>> > meetups into digital space. I am wondering if any of you have already
>> > experience in hosting such events online? Are there any OSS (or not)
>> > tools that are worth mentioning?
>> >
>> > It will be nice to hear suggestions, tips, and opinions from those who
>> > organized or participated in such events :)
>> >
>> > Thanks in advance,
>> > Tomek Urbaszek
>> >
>> > -
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
>> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Become a Wicket expert, learn from the best: http://wicketinaction.com

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Re: ALC, and who can speak on behalf of Apache

[Ross Gardler]

Thanks Rich,

I've not been tracking the discussion, but I have full confidence in the team 
here. I would be happy to provide a fresh set of eyes on a first draft of a 
proposal - trying to find the spaces that might raise objection that can thus 
be fleshed out ahead of time.

Ross


From: Rich Bowen 
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2019 6:58 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: ALC, and who can speak on behalf of Apache

I wonder if we have discussed this into the ground sufficiently to come
up with a proposal that we can vote on and report to the board on? I
think there's been great discussion, and that we have consensus on a
number of things. And there are several local groups waiting for
answers, as well as some that appear to have taken silence as endorsement.

On 12/4/19 3:15 PM, Rich Bowen wrote:
> I've made two posts on this list in the past couple of days regarding
> the rising ACL effort and my concerns about it.
>
> I *desperately* want this kind of grass-roots enthusiast community
> effort. I do NOT want to kill it. But I've learned from Fedora user
> groups that allowing any random stranger to start up a group, using our
> Trademarks, to promote whatever message comes into their head, is
> *going* to bite us in the butt, sooner rather than later.
>
> This is *NOT* about the Indore group and their recent event. Rather it's
> about the future. The groups currently out there are full of experienced
> Apache people. All well and good. The second wave will be full of people
> wanting to promote their business, or their personal brand, using our
> name, and spreading misinformation about Apache under our official banner.
>
> We *cannot* allow this to happen. To do so would be a dereliction of our
> duty as a PMC. We must plan for the bad actors, even while enabling the
> good actors.
>
> I'm not entirely sure what I'm proposing, but I think that requiring, at
> this stage, at least one Member to be involved in the creation and
> mentoring of a new group, is a reasonable path.
>
> A brief discussion of these issues has occurred on the
> priv...@community.apache.org mailing list, where I was rightfully called
> out for having the conversation in private rather than in public. So,
> moving the conversation here, as is appropriate.
>

--
Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com
http://rcbowen.com/
@rbowen

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Re: ALC, and who can speak on behalf of Apache

[Ross Gardler]

I've NOT read this thread. It looks like there is constructive discussion 
happening, unfortunately I don't have time to read it all just now, so I'll 
refrain from commenting beyond encouraging work in this initiative.

I did want to raise that quite some time ago we did alot of work thinking about 
how we might facilitate local ASF meetups. There is a whole load of materials 
on the old ConCom wiki. I think some of the guidelines we developed may be 
useful in planning this initiative, even though it has different goals.

Please accept my apologies for not finding a link for you. Also apologies if 
this has been discussed already. I'm lazy and on a phone.

If nobody has it handy, I'll look it up after the weekend when back from my 
current retreat from technology (starting in a few mins).

---

Sent from my phone, you know what that means - sorry

From: Swapnil M Mane 
Sent: Friday, December 6, 2019 2:32:51 PM
To: Rich Bowen ; dev 
Subject: Re: ALC, and who can speak on behalf of Apache

Thank you so much Rich for the kind words and expression, I highly
appreciate your constant guidance! :-)


On Fri, Dec 6, 2019 at 8:13 PM Rich Bowen  wrote:
>
> Some responses/thoughts inline. Thank you, Swapnil, for your
> constructive engagement in this conversation. I *hugely* appreciate you
> taking on this initiative, and your willingness to hear, and respond
> professionally to, criticism.
>
> On 12/5/19 12:31 AM, Swapnil M Mane wrote:
> > Thank you all for your constant support and guidance in the ALC [1] 
> > initiative.
> >
> > Thank you so much Rich, Daniel, Issac, Shane, and David for spending
> > time and energy to share your
> > thoughts, we highly appreciate it. All the points you mentioned are
> > very important.
> >
> > Dear team,
> > I would like to discuss with you on three critical points (raised by
> > Rich), here is the reference to mail threads (
> > https://s.apache.org/6hfel , https://s.apache.org/wr6ah )
> >
> > 1. Process of forming ALC Chapter.
> > 2. How we make sure that we are not having people use the Apache name
> > to promote messages that are not *our* message.
> > 3. Rules and regulations for ALC Chapter.
> >
> > I am having some proposals to address these issues and need your kind
> > help in validating and improving it. All the below are just my
> > thoughts and I need your kind inputs and approval on this.
> >
> > ## 1. Process of forming ALC Chapter.
> >
> > Currently, we have process to establish an ALC is, simply send mail on
> > ComDev list as mentioned at https://s.apache.org/apply-to-setup-alc
> >
> > Should we add the following clauses to it?
> >
> > -- Instead of sending mail on dev@community.apache.org, the mail
> > should be sent to ComDev PMC at priv...@community.apache.org
> > -- To form an ALC, there should be at least 2 committers or 1 ASF member.
> > -- The ComDev PMC will look into each request and then took
> > the decision on forming the ALC Chapter.
> > -- Also as Rich suggests above, we can also assign one mentor to guide ALC.
> > (Thank you @Issac & @David for sharing your thoughts on this point).
>
> I kind of like the transparency of sending the request to the public
> list. We have already seen how this brings additional
> participants/attendees to light.
>
> I believe (and we might want to run this by the board for confirmation)
> that for the PMC to create a new entity, with rights to use the Apache
> name and trademarks, the PMC must actually vote on it, which should
> probably happen on the private list, as such a vote might contain
> personal remarks about the people starting the ALC in question ("I don't
> trust that Daniel guy, you know how he is!")

Makes perfect sense, thanks!

>
> I think, before we authorize any more of these groups, we should write a
> formal proposal of how we are planning to vet these groups, and send it
> to the board list. (Good news: most of the board members are here, so
> this shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.)

Sure, thanks for raising this point, here is the
https://s.apache.org/establish-alc-chapter first draft.
(As mentioned in my previous mail, everyone please feel free to share
your inputs).

>
> My personal opinion is that we should require an ASF member to be
> involved, at least initially, and perhaps relax that when we revisit in,
> say, six months.

Very nice idea to revisiting it after six months, liked it!

Since many of the issues mentioned in the initial thread are almost getting
sorted. We are only having variable opinions on minimum count on ASF
or PMC members in ALC Chapter.
I tried to incorporate all the suggestions from everyone and prepared
https://s.apache.org/establish-alc-chapter document.

Please refer to my previous mail, https://s.apache.org/bvmwv from line
"Many of the issues mentioned"
(reshared again for everyone's quick reference)

>
> > ## 2. How we make sure that we are not having people use the Apache name
> > to promote messages that are not *our* 

Re: Apache Local Community (ALC) as a ComDev Initiative

[Ross Gardler]

Appoliges. My spam folder seems to be getting over zealous. I need to do some 
work on that thanks for flagging.

---

Sent from my phone, you know what that means - sorry

From: Rich Bowen 
Sent: Friday, December 6, 2019 11:26:54 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org ; Ross Gardler 

Cc: Sharan Foga 
Subject: Re: Apache Local Community (ALC) as a ComDev Initiative



On 12/6/19 1:15 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> There should not be a discussion on a prepare list. Please bring that 
> discussion here. This is a core part of the Apache Way.

The discussion is now actively ongoing, on this list. And Swapnil (and
others) are participating in that thread. The private thread has ceased,
and almost everything that was said there has now been repeated here, in
public.

I started the private thread, and I have apologized for doing so.

We do, indeed, have a pattern of, as Greg recently said, retreating to
the private list to avoid controversy. The reminders are always needed,
and appreciated.


> 
> From: Swapnil M Mane 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 4, 2019 12:06:31 AM
> To: dev 
> Cc: Sharan Foga 
> Subject: Re: Apache Local Community (ALC) as a ComDev Initiative
>
> Thank you so much Issac and Rich for sharing your kind thoughts.
> I have read your every input minutely and started a discussion on the
> private ComDev list, will keep you posted.
>
> Thanks again!
>
> Best regards,
> Swapnil M Mane,
> https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.apache.orgdata=02%7C01%7C%7C3a9e45c8bfb741d0ad0808d77a82430e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637112572193814046sdata=%2FMfSJoWgQMRuLEjmhge5AmTBs%2B%2FyuB2trChrNNzLGpo%3Dreserved=0<https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.apache.orgdata=02%7C01%7C%7C3a9e45c8bfb741d0ad0808d77a82430e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637112572193814046sdata=s1J6TMmZ2ZI5OsH%2FQZeSdwkcIjlDxHQiE36g9rBVeHM%3Dreserved=0>
>
> On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 12:14 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:
>>
>> While I'm excited to see this kind of local ambassador program springing
>> up, I want to be sure that we are not having people use the Apache name
>> to promote messages that are not *our* message.
>>
>> Having local groups of enthusiasts having periodic meetings is great.
>> What I'm asking is what assurances we want to have in place that the
>> messaging at these events is accurate?
>>
>> In the past, when we have had an official (for whatever value of
>> "official" we want to go with) Apache-sponsored thing, we require a
>> member to be involved, so that we know that the message is from someone
>> who actually knows what the message is. What I'm seeing here is a
>> free-form "create a group by asking nicely" without any member, or even
>> committer involved. And the events, and their messaging, are then being
>> promoted on an .apache.org website, which means that they are an
>> official statement of the Foundation.
>>
>> I'm feeling a little weird about that.
>>
>> I agree with Isaac, in that we don't want to set up a lengthy list of
>> rules for who and how and what, I think that we need to be cautious
>> about handing out our name, and our reputation, to just anybody that
>> asks for it. Indeed, it's really kind of critical that we don't. Our
>> name, and our reputation, are really the only things that we have, and
>> we simply cannot have unaffiliated groups using our name to promote
>> messages that are not Approved By Apache.
>>
>> Please note that I'm not saying that this has happened thus far. I don't
>> know that, having not attended any of these events. But we have a long
>> history of people using our name to promote their own agendas, and we
>> *must* not allow that.
>>
>>
>> On 11/19/19 1:24 PM, Sharan Foga wrote:
>>> Hi All
>>>
>>> Thanks Swapnil for the links about the ALC and I have re-read through the 
>>> threads. I remembered sensing some push back on the proposed organisational 
>>> hierarchy and see that has now been removed. Following on from that there 
>>> was the comment of ALC  being managed either within ComDev or VP 
>>> Conferences.
>>>
>>> I dont think this fits with Conferences as it is more like a local meetup 
>>> type event, which means outreach, which to me means ComDev.
>>>
>>> So now we need to look at how to manage the integration of the ALC 
>>> initiative. Based on Sally's feedback that means announcing and promoting 
>>> the initiative to a wider audience. I can see some key actions already
>>>
>>> -   announce the ALC as an init

Re: Apache Local Community (ALC) as a ComDev Initiative

[Ross Gardler]

There should not be a discussion on a prepare list. Please bring that 
discussion here. This is a core part of the Apache Way.

---

Sent from my phone, you know what that means - sorry


From: Swapnil M Mane 
Sent: Wednesday, December 4, 2019 12:06:31 AM
To: dev 
Cc: Sharan Foga 
Subject: Re: Apache Local Community (ALC) as a ComDev Initiative

Thank you so much Issac and Rich for sharing your kind thoughts.
I have read your every input minutely and started a discussion on the
private ComDev list, will keep you posted.

Thanks again!

Best regards,
Swapnil M Mane,
www.apache.org

On Wed, Dec 4, 2019 at 12:14 AM Rich Bowen  wrote:
>
> While I'm excited to see this kind of local ambassador program springing
> up, I want to be sure that we are not having people use the Apache name
> to promote messages that are not *our* message.
>
> Having local groups of enthusiasts having periodic meetings is great.
> What I'm asking is what assurances we want to have in place that the
> messaging at these events is accurate?
>
> In the past, when we have had an official (for whatever value of
> "official" we want to go with) Apache-sponsored thing, we require a
> member to be involved, so that we know that the message is from someone
> who actually knows what the message is. What I'm seeing here is a
> free-form "create a group by asking nicely" without any member, or even
> committer involved. And the events, and their messaging, are then being
> promoted on an .apache.org website, which means that they are an
> official statement of the Foundation.
>
> I'm feeling a little weird about that.
>
> I agree with Isaac, in that we don't want to set up a lengthy list of
> rules for who and how and what, I think that we need to be cautious
> about handing out our name, and our reputation, to just anybody that
> asks for it. Indeed, it's really kind of critical that we don't. Our
> name, and our reputation, are really the only things that we have, and
> we simply cannot have unaffiliated groups using our name to promote
> messages that are not Approved By Apache.
>
> Please note that I'm not saying that this has happened thus far. I don't
> know that, having not attended any of these events. But we have a long
> history of people using our name to promote their own agendas, and we
> *must* not allow that.
>
>
> On 11/19/19 1:24 PM, Sharan Foga wrote:
> > Hi All
> >
> > Thanks Swapnil for the links about the ALC and I have re-read through the 
> > threads. I remembered sensing some push back on the proposed organisational 
> > hierarchy and see that has now been removed. Following on from that there 
> > was the comment of ALC  being managed either within ComDev or VP 
> > Conferences.
> >
> > I dont think this fits with Conferences as it is more like a local meetup 
> > type event, which means outreach, which to me means ComDev.
> >
> > So now we need to look at how to manage the integration of the ALC 
> > initiative. Based on Sally's feedback that means announcing and promoting 
> > the initiative to a wider audience. I can see some key actions already
> >
> > -   announce the ALC as an initiative (Swapnil we can probably create this 
> > from your emails about it. Can you draft something? )
> > - promote the next event (include it on the Events calendar, tweet via 
> > @ApacheCommunity and include a reminder on ComDev)
> > -plan for future events (ALC Indore seems to be having events every 1 - 
> > 2 months, so let's put them on the calendar and prepare for it.)
> > -   funding (I am not sure if ALC is getting any funding as part of ASF 
> > small events, or it is being covered from a third party.? BTW ComDev also 
> > has a budget that could be used to help with stickers, swag etc)
> > -   grow the ALC community (several people said they were interested in 
> > setting up other ALCs but so far none have. This could be because of the 
> > lack of announcement of the initiative - so lets focus on that first)
> >
> > I'm happy to get feedback and comments on this so please feel free to 
> > respond if you have any ideas or suggestions.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Sharan
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> >
>
> --
> Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com
> http://rcbowen.com/
> @rbowen
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>

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Re: Apache Local Community (ALC) Next Steps

[Ross Gardler]

+1

ASF is a flat organization - by design. This proposal adds a level of hierarchy 
without justifying the need for it.

If people are unable to conduct the business of this proposed structure within 
ComDev and/or VP Conferences then fix that, don't work around it.

So, as Ted asks "Why is all this organizational hierarchy needed?"

Ross


From: Ted Dunning 
Sent: Monday, August 5, 2019 6:38 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Apache Local Community (ALC) Next Steps


This ALC stuff looks like a way to have local meetups.

Why is all this organizational hierarchy needed?

Why not just have meetups?

On 2019/08/01 13:29:41, Swapnil M Mane  wrote:
> Dear all,
>
> Hope you are doing good.
> Thanks, everyone who shared their kind thoughts on ALC proposal [1].
>
> As a next step, we have documented various information, which will help us
> in bringing ALC in action.
>
> # 1. ALC home page
> https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcwiki.apache.org%2Fconfluence%2Fdisplay%2FCOMDEV%2FApache%2BLocal%2BCommunity%2B-%2BALCdata=02%7C01%7C%7C5e171914f2b74a7239bf08d71a0ec644%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637006523061433531sdata=yXuLVZhp%2F%2Fieoq%2FUww1ImL9yBz2%2Fur6%2BJePP9FI7CLg%3Dreserved=0
>
>
> This is the root wiki document for ALC and contains the following
> information
> -- About ALC
> -- ALC Roles and Responsibility
> -- How ALC Chapter will be formed
> -- Benefits of ALC
> -- Code of conduct
> -- Addition information
> -- Contact  ALC
>
> # 2. ALC Resources
> https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcwiki.apache.org%2Fconfluence%2Fdisplay%2FCOMDEV%2FALC%2BResourcesdata=02%7C01%7C%7C5e171914f2b74a7239bf08d71a0ec644%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637006523061433531sdata=f8wsjmAxOvPURcR9%2B7dlcnbxKIkx9fFy%2BGpU%2BPzbEc4%3Dreserved=0
>
> This document is used for collecting the information and resources
> (presentations, media, etc.) that will be helpful for ALC chapters.
> Currently, contain the following information
> -- Types of events organized by ALC Chapters
> -- Venue for the event
> -- Topics for the session
>
> # 3. ALC Chapters
> https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcwiki.apache.org%2Fconfluence%2Fdisplay%2FCOMDEV%2FALC%2BChaptersdata=02%7C01%7C%7C5e171914f2b74a7239bf08d71a0ec644%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637006523061443539sdata=ZxM8gqhpEU3V%2FGxZvFnsphJI5TvFrn2oAIb2O3Wj8nM%3Dreserved=0
>
> This wiki contains all the ALC Chapters detail.
>
> ## 3.1 ALC Indore
> https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcwiki.apache.org%2Fconfluence%2Fdisplay%2FCOMDEV%2FALC%2BIndoredata=02%7C01%7C%7C5e171914f2b74a7239bf08d71a0ec644%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637006523061443539sdata=kUlZcS7BLOV%2FUUtemIT3DWdHeJrhXB0VigAzhFRG9Co%3Dreserved=0
>
> Each ALC Chapter will have its own wiki, which will contain details
> specific to that ALC Chapter. Since I am with Pranay Pandey starting the
> ALC Indore Chapter, thus created a wiki page for ALC Indore.
> Other chapters will also create their own wiki page.
>
> ### 3.1.1 ALC Indore Events
> https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcwiki.apache.org%2Fconfluence%2Fdisplay%2FCOMDEV%2FALC%2BIndore%2BEventsdata=02%7C01%7C%7C5e171914f2b74a7239bf08d71a0ec644%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637006523061443539sdata=eUJU%2BzGYHeEm%2Bp2k6%2Fomc2rKZ8JIUsSK0BgxP4xQY%2Bo%3Dreserved=0
>
> This document contains information about upcoming and past events organized
> by ALC Indore Chapter.
>
> ### 3.1.2 ALC Indore Reports
> https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcwiki.apache.org%2Fconfluence%2Fdisplay%2FCOMDEV%2FALC%2BIndore%2BReportsdata=02%7C01%7C%7C5e171914f2b74a7239bf08d71a0ec644%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637006523061443539sdata=rcnZlOOmSb4iDniQ0CeqcF94czggtw%2BcxKRsgVrZm%2BI%3Dreserved=0
>
> The ALC Chapter shares the status report to the ALC Management Committee in
> every two months. This wiki contains these reports. The report includes
> details on the activities performed by the ALC Chapter and its impact.
>
> # 4 Reports
> https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcwiki.apache.org%2Fconfluence%2Fdisplay%2FCOMDEV%2FReportsdata=02%7C01%7C%7C5e171914f2b74a7239bf08d71a0ec644%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637006523061443539sdata=yBMLzbVaCKpCujIdcpMUOhq3CyJVxiScMG8lu10ytjw%3Dreserved=0
>
> This wiki contains the details of all the report shared to ALC Management
> Committee by ALC Chapters.
>
> # 5 Organizational Hierarchy
> https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcwiki.apache.org%2Fconfluence%2Fdisplay%2FCOMDEV%2FOrganizational%2BHierarchydata=02%7C01%7C%7C5e171914f2b74a7239bf08d71a0ec644%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637006523061443539sdata=4EPu7ePgrcrG1AdCv1%2BHcwlEBuzGyTbunRZZuT9mIr8%3Dreserved=0
>
> This 

Re: Roadshow Seattle

[Ross Gardler]

Understood. My hope is we won't be asking for funding (depends on what our 
nascent group decides we want to do though). I imagine we will want help with 
promotion. We will have no problem meeting the member oversight requirement.

The Seattle locals plan to meet next Thurs (lurking and local? Come and join 
us). We'll bring an outline of our proposal to events@ after that.

Ross

Get Outlook for Android


From: Rich Bowen 
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2019 6:36:01 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Roadshow Seattle

Fyi, we're in the peocess of drafting a bid process for roadshows.

Basically, if you want asf funding for a roadshow you're going to need to
jump through a few hoops to get it. We cannot support N roadshows every
year if N keeps growing.

Otoh if you don't need any budget support, and you don't need any promotion
support, then we only require that a member is involved for you to use the
"Apache Roadshow" name, but understand that other than the name you're
pretty much on your own at that point.

We're not trying to squash your fun but the budget and volunteer support
only goes so far.

We also don't want to create a situation where we are competing with our
own events. So please note the existing event schedule -
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fevents.apache.org%2Fdata=02%7C01%7C%7Cd0728436d2ce4d964a4908d6da681312%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636936537864641731sdata=ZMaoO8iHPf%2BBFHP8ZWcZVyNFp1FDfCfGkUEo81WR6%2BE%3Dreserved=0
 - and don't put something on the same land mass
within 3 months of one of our official events.

These rules will evolve and will be documented on events.a.o as soon as we
figure out what they are but I'm pretty sure that the above is the skeleton
of what we will end up with.

Rich, VP Events
plann...@apachecon.com

On Tue, May 14, 2019, 13:22 Andrew Musselman  wrote:

> If there's any interest in putting one on in Seattle I'd love to organize
> one.
>
> I believe have a lot of Apache folks in town and it would be a great excuse
> to get them together.
>
> Best
> Andrew
>

Re: Roadshow Seattle

[Ross Gardler]

Will do, Andrew and I decided we'll meet downtown for a chat. No time set yet. 
Then come back here with a proposal. If anyone else wants to join us for coffee 
drop us a note offlist (keep organizational noise down).

Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/ghei36>


From: Aizhamal Nurmamat kyzy 
Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019 12:23:40 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Roadshow Seattle

I am based in Seattle, available for a chat over coffee, & would really
love to have input here. Also know folks from Google and Lyft that would
appreciate this kind of event in Seattle for sure.

Please keep me in the loop.

Thanks,
Aizhamal

*From: *Andrew Musselman 
*Date: *Tue, May 14, 2019 at 3:23 PM
*To: * 

Aha great; yeah I'm in Seattle, looking forward to getting together.
>
> Best
> Andrew
>
> On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 1:20 PM Kevin A. McGrail 
> wrote:
>
> > Hah, I was just about to say ask Ross as step 1.
> >
> > On Tue, May 14, 2019, 15:08 Ross Gardler  wrote:
> >
> > > Wearing my Microsoft hat, you have Microsoft engaged.
> > >
> > > Wearing my ASF hat I can help with reaching local companies. But before
> > we
> > > start reaching out let's decide what kind of event we want. I've been
> > > planning to do something for some time and would love to link up with
> you
> > > on it. There is a good chance that you and I are thinking of different
> > > events ;-)
> > >
> > > Are you local do Seattle? If so let's have a coffee (with anyone
> > > available) figure out if we are sufficiently aligned and come back
> with a
> > > proposal.
> > >
> > > Ross
> > >
> > > Get Outlook for 
> > > Android<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fghei36data=02%7C01%7C%7C434f5f305d024ec9a6ac08d6d9064cf7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636935018408634181sdata=MPz%2BVlADYbtLm5Ghtzsmf%2FGzaWZAh5RuKbX3cTl34uk%3Dreserved=0>
> > >
> > > 
> > > From: Andrew Musselman 
> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 12:51:49 PM
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > > Subject: Re: Roadshow Seattle
> > >
> > > Awesome, thanks for the feedback; I'll look at how to kick off
> planning.
> > > Any ideas for getting the word out and checking interest levels across
> > > local companies/projects?
> > >
> > > On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 11:52 AM Kevin A. McGrail  >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > On 5/14/2019 2:30 PM, Aizhamal Nurmamat kyzy wrote:
> > > > > I think Seattle would be a great place to host one. I’d be there to
> > > help
> > > > if
> > > > > it gets traction, Andrew.
> > > >
> > > > Same and I told him in person I would help.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Kevin A. McGrail
> > > > Member, Apache Software Foundation
> > > > Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fkmcgraildata=02%7C01%7C%7C434f5f305d024ec9a6ac08d6d9064cf7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636935018408634181sdata=wqB8m%2FP8cypAbO8gIe1psCI2LV2wRhLbG9yQZkQFsTo%3Dreserved=0
> > > - 703.798.0171
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: Roadshow Seattle

[Ross Gardler]

Wearing my Microsoft hat, you have Microsoft engaged.

Wearing my ASF hat I can help with reaching local companies. But before we 
start reaching out let's decide what kind of event we want. I've been planning 
to do something for some time and would love to link up with you on it. There 
is a good chance that you and I are thinking of different events ;-)

Are you local do Seattle? If so let's have a coffee (with anyone available) 
figure out if we are sufficiently aligned and come back with a proposal.

Ross

Get Outlook for Android


From: Andrew Musselman 
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 12:51:49 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Roadshow Seattle

Awesome, thanks for the feedback; I'll look at how to kick off planning.
Any ideas for getting the word out and checking interest levels across
local companies/projects?

On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 11:52 AM Kevin A. McGrail 
wrote:

> On 5/14/2019 2:30 PM, Aizhamal Nurmamat kyzy wrote:
> > I think Seattle would be a great place to host one. I’d be there to help
> if
> > it gets traction, Andrew.
>
> Same and I told him in person I would help.
>
> --
> Kevin A. McGrail
> Member, Apache Software Foundation
> Chair Emeritus Apache SpamAssassin Project
> https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.linkedin.com%2Fin%2Fkmcgraildata=02%7C01%7C%7C40acb850e14543105c4b08d6d8a5a634%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636934603295131190sdata=LvU2y2uf5fiGi3I3kOQF9E%2BgrXM2cw6f%2BOHJ5XgS%2B50%3Dreserved=0
>  - 703.798.0171
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>
>

Re: Roadshow Seattle

[Ross Gardler]

Yes. Count me in to help you organize.

Get Outlook for Android


From: Andrew Musselman 
Sent: Tuesday, May 14, 2019 11:21:48 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Roadshow Seattle

If there's any interest in putting one on in Seattle I'd love to organize
one.

I believe have a lot of Apache folks in town and it would be a great excuse
to get them together.

Best
Andrew

Re: Why should D be a president's committee?

[Ross Gardler]

As I understand the current D committee proposal it does not impact current 
CoC setup.

If you feel it should/should not then maybe you can provide your thoughts in 
the form of feedback to Myrle's initial question here. If you don't have an 
opinion yet maybe consider asking the proposed VP D and the volunteers on the 
diversity list for their thoughts.

Ross


From: Dave Fisher 
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2019 8:23 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Why should D be a president's committee?

Hi Ross,

Forgive me if this opens up the subject more than needed, but I have a question.

How do you view this new Diversity & Inclusion committee with respect to the 
code of conduct and 
https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.apache.org%2Ffoundation%2Fpolicies%2Fconduct%23reporting-guidelinesdata=02%7C01%7C%7C72419fb14e8c4659a9ec08d6ce4915f6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636923210621821512sdata=QlG6eMuv0Yp9bMB0vDSIwg%2BI3VstBHLEoXfKLj5bhVQ%3Dreserved=0
 where a list of contacts are provided.

Is the new D committee meant to be separate from reporting/“enforcement” or 
not? Your arguments around legal situations involving law enforcement 
potentially implies a mixing of policy evaluation and enforcement.

Regards,
Dave

> On May 1, 2019, at 7:31 AM, Ross Gardler  wrote:
>
> Good points so far.  One that I believe has been missed...
>
> Board committees have 9 bosses. PMCs have potentially many more. Presidents 
> committees have 1.
>
> In other words, a Presidents committee can get things done more quickly in 
> difficult or controversial spaces, especially in things that do not present a 
> binary correct/incorrect set of choices.
>
> As noted by others there is significant oversight from the board via monthly 
> reports. Plenty of opportunity for course correction as result. Any objection 
> by any one of the nine is dealt with by President, allowing the committee to 
> get on with their work within the boundaries agreed with the president.
>
> This requires a level of trust in the President, and their delegates.
>
> Ross
>
> Get Outlook for 
> Android<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fghei36data=02%7C01%7C%7C72419fb14e8c4659a9ec08d6ce4915f6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636923210621831523sdata=gnWoQ%2F1j2s0538XLcsoYlFn5ZX9%2BkTKRsC4Sam03FVg%3Dreserved=0>
>
> 
> From: Shane Curcuru 
> Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2019 6:23:34 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Why should D be a president's committee?
>
> The most important question is: where do the people who are currently
> most active doing the real work of the survey and organizing
> informational materials on diversity@ want to do that work?  Ensuring
> they have a productive space and framework to work is the first thing to
> solve.   That said...
>
> Myrle Krantz wrote on 5/1/19 7:06 AM:
> ...snip...
>> * Make it a sub-committee of ComDev.
>
> This is nothing more than a page on community.a.o and the diversity@
> mailing list.  We already effectively have that.  The only difference
> would be having a formal page on the website that lists who's there,
> essentially copying what we've done in the mailing list.
>
> In terms of powers, none in particular.  Membership changes by the PMC
> voting in new PMC members (or allowing committers to participate, etc.)
> Reports would be part of the quarterly ComDev report.
>
>> * Make it a president's committee.
>
> The proposal is to also name a VP of that committee as well.  The VP is
> an officer, and can perform duties for the ASF within the scope of
> whatever charter the board originally creates the VP officer with.
>
> Historically, we've had the board create *new VP roles* with a title and
> description, and appoint the first person to that role.  For President's
> committees and other VPs reporting to the President, we've had the
> President thereafter simply make new appointments to existing roles
> directly (always reported in board reports).
>
> President's committees can be changed by the President at any point, or
> by the VP in charge if specifically authorized to do so.  Also, since
> President's committees are mostly about operations, we have examples of
> officers like this having regular annual budgets and signing authority.
>
> They cannot release software (publicly).  They could have a separate
> website and mailing lists.  President's committees report monthly.
>
>> * Make it it's own PMC.
>
> This requires a normal board resolution, and would act like any other
> PMC, especially in terms of managing PMC or committer membership.  We've
> done straight-to-PMC before (i.e. n

Re: Why should D be a president's committee?

[Ross Gardler]

Good points so far.  One that I believe has been missed...

Board committees have 9 bosses. PMCs have potentially many more. Presidents 
committees have 1.

In other words, a Presidents committee can get things done more quickly in 
difficult or controversial spaces, especially in things that do not present a 
binary correct/incorrect set of choices.

As noted by others there is significant oversight from the board via monthly 
reports. Plenty of opportunity for course correction as result. Any objection 
by any one of the nine is dealt with by President, allowing the committee to 
get on with their work within the boundaries agreed with the president.

This requires a level of trust in the President, and their delegates.

Ross

Get Outlook for Android


From: Shane Curcuru 
Sent: Wednesday, May 1, 2019 6:23:34 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Why should D be a president's committee?

The most important question is: where do the people who are currently
most active doing the real work of the survey and organizing
informational materials on diversity@ want to do that work?  Ensuring
they have a productive space and framework to work is the first thing to
solve.   That said...

Myrle Krantz wrote on 5/1/19 7:06 AM:
...snip...
> * Make it a sub-committee of ComDev.

This is nothing more than a page on community.a.o and the diversity@
mailing list.  We already effectively have that.  The only difference
would be having a formal page on the website that lists who's there,
essentially copying what we've done in the mailing list.

In terms of powers, none in particular.  Membership changes by the PMC
voting in new PMC members (or allowing committers to participate, etc.)
 Reports would be part of the quarterly ComDev report.

> * Make it a president's committee.

The proposal is to also name a VP of that committee as well.  The VP is
an officer, and can perform duties for the ASF within the scope of
whatever charter the board originally creates the VP officer with.

Historically, we've had the board create *new VP roles* with a title and
description, and appoint the first person to that role.  For President's
committees and other VPs reporting to the President, we've had the
President thereafter simply make new appointments to existing roles
directly (always reported in board reports).

President's committees can be changed by the President at any point, or
by the VP in charge if specifically authorized to do so.  Also, since
President's committees are mostly about operations, we have examples of
officers like this having regular annual budgets and signing authority.

They cannot release software (publicly).  They could have a separate
website and mailing lists.  President's committees report monthly.

> * Make it it's own PMC.

This requires a normal board resolution, and would act like any other
PMC, especially in terms of managing PMC or committer membership.  We've
done straight-to-PMC before (i.e. not going through Incubation), it just
needs the scope description of the PMC and the list of VP and members.

They could release software and all the usual PMC things, and they
report to the board quarterly.



Elsethread, Mark also mentioned a board committee.  They have the powers
of the board.  Changing board committees (normally) takes a board
resolution, meaning it takes more time to add/remove people.  They
report monthly to the board.

While President's committees have a broad scope of operations, often
looking across the whole ASF, they do not have direct power to generally
set policies across other projects.  Board committees, on the other
hand, could directly enact and enforce policies across projects.



Personally, I'm +1 for a President's committee.  Right now, we need a
place where people actively doing productive work can do so.
President's committees provide plenty of oversight and monthly
reporting.  A lot of the work will be gathering data and creating solid
materials that projects or other officers can choose to use to help
improve our communities, or doing their own direct outreach at
conferences or the like.  Those are all things well suited to a
President's committee with a named VP.


--

- Shane
  Director & Member
  The Apache Software Foundation

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Re: Requesting the creation of a Diversity and Inclusion committee reporting to the President

[Ross Gardler]

As the originating VP I will state that the ComDev PMC was never setup to 
address D directly. It was set up to be a "welcome mat" for new people to the 
ASF. Predominently it was about running Google Summer of Code. The resolution 
was broader than this to allow an appropriate growth in scope. This can, 
arguably, include D

However, the assumption that it *must* reside here is nonsense. TAC isn't here, 
Conferences isn't here. Incubator isn't here.

A case can certainly be made, but as I argue elsethread, there are reasons why 
IMHO it shouldn't be here (D requires a focused and detail oriented approach 
with protection from the drip-drip-drip of unconcious bias).

Ross


From: Kenneth Knowles 
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 8:56 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Cc: divers...@apache.org; Community Development
Subject: Re: Requesting the creation of a Diversity and Inclusion committee 
reporting to the President

> On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 12:44 PM Jim Jagielski  wrote:
> > ...ComDev, which has D in its charter and mandate...
>

Is this based on the charter of "The Community Development PMC is
responsible for helping people become involved with Apache projects" or is
there some more explicit resolution about comdev having D in its charter?

Kenn

Re: Requesting the creation of a Diversity and Inclusion committee reporting to the President

[Ross Gardler]

+ ComDev

Com Dev we intend to move the D responsibility to a separate Presidents 
committee. The outputs will be fully integrated with ComDev, but actions will 
be separate in order to allow a scalpel like approach independent of the 
broader interests of ComDev which should focus on all community, not just some.

I want to be very clear about why I phrase my request this way, and why I am 
sorting this move. I speak as the original VP of ComDev, past director and 
president, current EVP and, most importantly, white, middle aged and male, with 
a somewhat unique experience and over 30 years of advocacy for equality 
(including a politically and diversity motivated music career, living as part 
of a 3% minority, running a consultancy with a partner specializing in 
accessibility, dealing with D issues in my day job and my home life and 
generally being aware that despite all this I'm full of unconcious bias).

I was the point of contact for the CoC here at the ASF for a number of years 
and as a result was involved with a number of cases, three of which involved 
law enforcement. I repeat, the of which involved law enforcement.

What most people fail to understand is that there is a "build up" of isms. What 
might be small (like saying "you guys") is one droplet of "ism" that fills the 
pool that ultimately either drowns people or drives them away in self 
preservation.

Most of the issues we have are droplets like this (though please remember three 
cases involved law enforcement). Very few of us, if any, are outright sexist or 
racist or "ableist". Yet the majority of us contribute, inadvertently, to the 
problem through unconscious bias.

Nobody is asking us to be perfect. But we are asking for people to recognize 
they are imperfect. Just these discussions about the need for D are examples 
of the problem.

ComDev should support the separation of the D initiative so that it can 
continue to focus on community all-up. D should be a Presidents committee 
where things can get done without participants having to face the pointless and 
endless discussions over whether there is even a problem.

I know that's not how the Apache Way works, but we have precedence all over the 
place. The key is to ensure there is oversight to prevent overstepping.

Even ComDev itself, which was set up to run GSoC engagements, ran for years as 
me being a BD organizing GSoC, otherwise we would have spent all the GSOC 
planning time arguing about how to evaluate projects and how the process is 
unfair. ComDev was created when I had solidified the process, not before. PR, 
which devolved into a shooting match unable to progress eventually became Sally 
and the board kicked everyone out and let Sally rebuild. ConCom also failed 
because of the noise. It took years of Rich being a BD before we got into a 
healthy state, even today with a committee, we have leads for each event. 
Legal, trademarks, finance - all are structured this way. All remain answerable 
to the board, sometimes via Prez,
and thus the membership regardless of structure.

2015 was the first year I spoke about D as Prez. It was far too late.

Others had been trying for years.

I considered the fact that I would be attacked for doing it (and I was).

I did it anyway (and I was right to do so).

Since then we've done alot, but not enough.

Time to step up or get out of the way. I welcome oversight, I reject 
obstructionist behavior.

ComDev please acknowledge we need to spin the D effort off. We need to 
empower the creation of finely tuned activities to help our communities 
understand this space. We need that to be a part - of the broader ComDev 
effort, but it should not be subject to the unconscious bias of the majority, 
like me.

Ross


Get Outlook for Android


From: Bertrand Delacretaz 
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2019 4:46:13 AM
To: divers...@apache.org
Subject: Re: Requesting the creation of a Diversity and Inclusion committee 
reporting to the President

Hi,

On Tue, Apr 30, 2019 at 12:44 PM Jim Jagielski  wrote:
> ...I guess the main question is whether or not ComDev, which has D in its
> charter and mandate, is OK with another cmmt taking on its role in this 
> area...

Good point, I agree that the comdev PMC needs to agree to "spin off"
D to a distinct committee or PMC.

> ...That seems very, very wonky to me and quite out of form..

I see it as just one thing that needs to be fixed and is easy to fix,
by a comdev PMC vote for example - no big deal.

-Bertrand

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Re: Diversity / Inclusion

[Ross Gardler]

Justin Mclean has done some work on Apache Way teaching modules (added to To 
line as I'm not sure if he is on the ComDev list)


From: Austin Bennett 
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2019 7:19 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Diversity / Inclusion

Hi Apache Community,

This is related to recent discussions, but I'm looking for practical
suggestions for a concrete initiative, so not jumping in on those threads.

Working with the administration at a local community college - looking at
methods for training some English as a second language - and immigrant (to
the USA) - students to learn things coding/computing.  Computer Science is
an 'impacted' major, meaning students are not even able to gain access to
those classes, so there is motivation to figure out how to expand those
capabilities.

This has me exploring putting things together to train these students.
Outside of the technical skills, I am imagining teaching them about (and
encourage living by) the Apache Way, and thoughts around encouraging this
mentality from the outset ("meritocracy" as a quite loaded word, for
example).  It seems such awareness would be beneficial to people as they
are learning (and anyone); In addition this might serve as a pipeline for
the future for people that would contribute positively to Apache.

Anything else I should be looking at outside of the website:
https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcommunity.apache.orgdata=02%7C01%7C%7C1e0ef8bd54174f76f88508d6b57f51c3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636895955760405352sdata=IEJzzDEsxGCaeFHpfr%2BpGizvwxvClhZWuB%2BudCoyW0s%3Dreserved=0
 ?

Thanks,
Austin

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Re: Building and Sustaining Inclusive Communities (was: on "meritocracy")

[Ross Gardler]

Yes. I'm making accommodations. I plan to take affirmative action (I note that 
Wikipedia calls out the UK, my native country, as having a different meaning to 
other places, so perhaps that's why I like the term and you don't).

I will comply with the CoC and I will continue to try to assert the CoC on all 
actions of all participants. But I *will* take affirmative action to help 
address the inequalities we have.

Ross


From: Jim Jagielski 
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2019 12:01 PM
To: ComDev
Cc: Naomi Slater
Subject: Re: Building and Sustaining Inclusive Communities (was: on 
"meritocracy")

Making accommodations.

IMO, 'affirmative action' should be avoided too much political baggage.

> On Mar 30, 2019, at 2:55 PM, Ross Gardler  wrote:
>
> Let use the term "affirmative action" from now on...
>
> 
> From: Naomi Slater 
> Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2019 11:50 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Building and Sustaining Inclusive Communities (was: on 
> "meritocracy")
>
> On Sat, 30 Mar 2019 at 19:23, Jim Jagielski  wrote:
>
>>
>> Discrimination, by definition, is unjust, unwarranted or prejudicial.
>>
>
> simplistic and incorrect
>
> discrimination, *by definition*, means you discriminate, i.e., tell apart
>
> we discriminate when we determine who "has merit". but most people at the
> organization consider that form of discrimination a positive and
> constructive process
>
> when you choose who to hire, you are discriminating. between the hirable
> candidates and the unhirable candidates
>
> "positive discrimination", also known as affirmative action, is the process
> of discriminating between those who are advantaged and those who are
> disadvantaged and then doing something to help the ones who are
> disadvantaged
>
> this is similar in spirit to means testing when it comes to social welfare.
> the state discriminates between those who need assistance and those who
> don't (how well they do this is another matter entirely)
>
> I would like to see a well-reasoned argument that explains why identifying
> those in need of assistance and then providing that assistance is "by
> definition" unjust. it appears we have a *very* different understanding of
> what justice is
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
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Re: Building and Sustaining Inclusive Communities (was: on "meritocracy")

[Ross Gardler]

Let use the term "affirmative action" from now on...


From: Naomi Slater 
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2019 11:50 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Building and Sustaining Inclusive Communities (was: on 
"meritocracy")

On Sat, 30 Mar 2019 at 19:23, Jim Jagielski  wrote:

>
> Discrimination, by definition, is unjust, unwarranted or prejudicial.
>

simplistic and incorrect

discrimination, *by definition*, means you discriminate, i.e., tell apart

we discriminate when we determine who "has merit". but most people at the
organization consider that form of discrimination a positive and
constructive process

when you choose who to hire, you are discriminating. between the hirable
candidates and the unhirable candidates

"positive discrimination", also known as affirmative action, is the process
of discriminating between those who are advantaged and those who are
disadvantaged and then doing something to help the ones who are
disadvantaged

this is similar in spirit to means testing when it comes to social welfare.
the state discriminates between those who need assistance and those who
don't (how well they do this is another matter entirely)

I would like to see a well-reasoned argument that explains why identifying
those in need of assistance and then providing that assistance is "by
definition" unjust. it appears we have a *very* different understanding of
what justice is

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Re: Building and Sustaining Inclusive Communities (was: on "meritocracy")

[Ross Gardler]

I think the assumption that anyone is intending to violate the code of conduct 
is a bad one. Lets not make that assumption.

I think the problem is that *I* used the term "positive discrimination". That 
has led to an interpretation of someone elses words through a cloudy lens. 
Before making assumptions about that other persons intent you should listen to 
their words. Have you watched Joan's presentation?

Ross


From: Eric Covener 
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2019 10:32 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Building and Sustaining Inclusive Communities (was: on 
"meritocracy")

> I'm not going to (intentionally) actively discriminate for or against anyone. 
> But I will protect your right, as an individual, to do so as long as you 
> protect my right to help you achieve the
> right balance in our broader communities by stamping out the existence of any 
> discrimination (positive or negative).
> Community over code

How do you square this with the code of conduct? In my reading, unless
the discrimination threaded some extremely fine needle, it would be in
violation and a good argument could be made for the defense of it
being in violation as well.

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Re: on "meritocracy"

[Ross Gardler]

:-)

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From: Naomi Slater 
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2019 9:54:52 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Cc: Wade Chandler
Subject: Re: on "meritocracy"

my mistake! thanks for clarifying

On Sat, 30 Mar 2019 at 17:52, Ross Gardler  wrote:

> You said "this is the last time I will reply to you". I intended to say
> there is great honor in doing that.
>
>
>
>
>
> Get Outlook for 
> Android<https://nam03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Faka.ms%2Fghei36data=02%7C01%7C%7C938e0caa8d0c4c4d6d2808d6b5307cf3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636895617182100408sdata=lkXHGxaiKD4nM8s7x95nX2jG4pGnS7gfYEdurrlVlcI%3Dreserved=0>
>
>
>
> From: Naomi Slater
> Sent: Saturday, March 30, 9:45 AM
> Subject: Re: on "meritocracy"
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Cc: Wade Chandler
>
>
> On Sat, 30 Mar 2019 at 17:21, Ross Gardler  wrote:
>
> > "this is the last time I will reply to you"
> >
> > Daniel has a sayibg that I hope we can adopt to avoid unproductive
> debate.
> > I apply it here to Naomi: "there is great honor in the email not sent"
> >
>
> I don't know why you keep singling *me* out as someone who needs to be
> criticized/moderated on list. surely there are better candidates
>
>
>

Re: on "meritocracy"

[Ross Gardler]

You said "this is the last time I will reply to you". I intended to say there 
is great honor in doing that.





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From: Naomi Slater
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: on "meritocracy"
To: dev@community.apache.org
Cc: Wade Chandler


On Sat, 30 Mar 2019 at 17:21, Ross Gardler  wrote:

> "this is the last time I will reply to you"
>
> Daniel has a sayibg that I hope we can adopt to avoid unproductive debate.
> I apply it here to Naomi: "there is great honor in the email not sent"
>

I don't know why you keep singling *me* out as someone who needs to be
criticized/moderated on list. surely there are better candidates

Re: Building and Sustaining Inclusive Communities (was: on "meritocracy")

[Ross Gardler]

+1 for JFDI

I am generally not supportive of positive discrimination.  But I recognize that 
I can afford not to be.

As Shane says it's irrelevant what I think unless I'm going to put effort into 
an alternative (remember a -1 around here means you object and will work on a 
better alternative). Feel free to force the naysayers to put effort into 
"fixing" what they consider to be broken about a positive discrimination 
approach.

I say this, not just because it's the Apache Way, but also because of a day job 
experience...

At work we had a period of what I consider positive discrimination. I was 
really pissed off at first. I felt it was holding me back (wrongly, but that's 
what it felt like).

Guess what happened...

I woke up one day and realized what I was experiencing was discrimination. 
Discrimination of the sort minorities at work were feeling. I felt there were 
barriers, even if they were only social ones that could be torn down wiith 
effort. That was one surprisingly effective lesson!

Today at work every employee has a required D commitment. We get to choose 
what we do, but we have to show some effect in the industry. The change I've 
seen at work is amazing.

My point is, I've learned that while I object to positive discrimination for 
(IMHO) really good reasons  there are even better reasons why a period of it 
can help.

I'm not going to (intentionally) actively discriminate for or against anyone. 
But I will protect your right, as an individual, to do so as long as you 
protect my right to help you achieve the right balance in our broader 
communities by stamping out the existence of any discrimination (positive or 
negative).

Community over code

Ross




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From: Shane Curcuru 
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2019 8:43:08 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Building and Sustaining Inclusive Communities (was: on "meritocracy")

Joan Touzet wrote on 3/30/19 12:52 AM:
...snip...
> Precisely the point. I'm in favour of this, though I know others are
> actively against it. I talked about this at length during my
> ApacheCon 2018 talk, proposing options that are well thought-out and
> fair, drawing from a wide variety of sources; I encourage you to
> listen to the full recording and read my slides before passing
> judgement.

For the benefit of list readers:

https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fspeakerdeck.com%2Fwohali%2Fbuilding-and-sustaining-inclusive-communities%3Fslide%3D10data=02%7C01%7C%7Cda7e74db44914717e68b08d6b52670f4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636895574032505781sdata=1W5l6a9knggZlSKmHn1Hepx5p0edk1jIq0jlhNkTcNw%3Dreserved=0

https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Ffeathercast.apache.org%2F2018%2F09%2F29%2Fbuilding-and-sustaining-inclusive-communities-joan-touzet%2Fdata=02%7C01%7C%7Cda7e74db44914717e68b08d6b52670f4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636895574032505781sdata=86hnw2%2B2jN5RZ2wMj78x7K%2BgX7vS5FZ2Yvgm%2B5%2B4X5s%3Dreserved=0

...snip...
> Again as Rich says, there's explicit approval to proceed with a D
> initiative already, from both the Board and the President. People like
> Naomi and I have been through the "prove it to me" request many times
> over, and I'm tired of responding to this particular email.

There's not even a need for explicit approval for volunteers here to
spend their own time finding a space to work, and building Apache 2.0
licensed content anywhere on the ComDev website, at upcoming ApacheCons,
or within their own Apache projects.  I'm excited to see several
dedicated people showing up in this thread, and once we have a new space
for the ideas Naomi and Gris and others want to work on, I'll join.



But this thread does show an unfortunate classic meta-issue in many
broad volunteer-run communities: people not actively working on a
specific issue bringing sufficient tangential discussion, questions, and
vague opposition to effectively kill new work on that issue.

A situation that's happened to me personally with saddening regularity:
I come up with a new idea to improve a process or document, and ask for
feedback.  Some of the feedback asks "why are we bothering with this" or
"I think that's wrong because X", or merely asks clarifying questions /
requests for more additional data, or or or... and often ends up being
an endless game of "fetch me a rock".

After attempting to answer a half-dozen of these questions - many
tangential or merely expressing opposition *without providing useful
alternatives*, I simply run out of volunteer energy and give up on the
idea completely, and I find some other place to spend my time.  The
opposition of just a couple of people spending the time to keep asking
for clarifications can often turn into a de facto veto for all sorts of
new ideas.

Apache communities work better when people who think a new idea is [dumb
| annoying | not useful | whatever ] 

Re: on "meritocracy"

[Ross Gardler]

"this is the last time I will reply to you"

Daniel has a sayibg that I hope we can adopt to avoid unproductive debate. I 
apply it here to Naomi: "there is great honor in the email not sent"

Ross

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From: Naomi Slater 
Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2019 8:00:20 AM
To: Wade Chandler
Cc: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: on "meritocracy"

On Sat, 30 Mar 2019 at 15:57, Wade Chandler  wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 30, 2019, 10:26 Naomi Slater  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>> We are many things, good and bad. We should not be hypocrites. After
>>> all, isn't that the core problem we are discussing: claiming to be
>>> all about community and then disenfranchising huge swatches of people?
>>>
>>
>> you are doing the same thing Wade was doing. appropriating the language
>> that marginalized people use
>>
>
> How do people become marginalized? By being marginalized by people
> perhaps? See any of that in this thread?
>

yes. but I suspect you are not making the point you think you're making. lol

this is the last time I will reply to you

Re: on "meritocracy"

[Ross Gardler]

"don’t see this here" - that's the root of the problem.

I was the point of contact for the Code of Conduct for three years. I can 
assure you the problem exists, in some cases in very extreme ways. You might 
not see it (perhaps it's not in your projects) or perhaps you are blind to it 
(that's not an attack on you, I miss it too, I'm part of the problem - white, 
male, English speaking, imperfect).

I can assure you it exists. It's usually dealt with quietly. For the most part, 
people are not intending to be exclusionary. In fact they are, usually, 
offended that someone would see them as being exclusionary, they seek to 
explain that "that's not what I meant, what I meant was..." [TIP: if someone is 
gently pointing out an error they are not judging you they are trying to help 
you see how it is exclusionary, just apologize, thank them and move on]

Then they get angry that it's positive discrimination to "censor" them, "why 
aren't you protecting my right to express an opinion?" is the typical kind of 
response. [TIP: the CoC applies to everyone equally it is designed to guide us 
on how to express our opinion in a way that is inclusive of all]

After a (typically long) conversation explaining how they can make their point 
without being exclusionary they are usually begrudgingly grateful and they can 
be seen trying to modify their behavior. [TIP: it's an awesome feeling when 
someone sees you making an effort and thanks you for it, plus it's good for 
your project!]

As I've posted elsethread I believe that many of us are simply unaware of how 
our social norms are exclusionary. I believe the softly, softly approach to 
helping people realize this is more effective. However, the softly, softly 
approach has the negative side effect of making the issues less visible. In my 
experience this is necessary since many people affected by this are not willing 
to be singled out by publicly calling out people. [TIP: always, gently, call 
out exclusionary behavior you see in F2F meetings - there are very different 
dynamics there and individuals sometimes need to know people are looking out 
for them]

I ask that everyone reading this far take a moment to think the above through. 
It means the issues that cause us to have poor diversity are mostly invisible 
to us. Therefore we assume the problem doesn't exist or isn't as severe as some 
claim. Thus when someone raises concerns we tell them they are wrong, which is 
exclusionary in and of itself. [TIP: always assume the other person has a 
justifiable reason for raising their concern and learn from it. Maybe ask how 
one might help. If you just can't see it, fine, don't engage. For the sake of 
our community don't deny the claim. Assume good intent. If you are right and 
the it's a non-event the thread will die immediately - there is no need to 
refute it]

Wade asks for explicit examples. My experience is that if we point to out an 
explicit example then someone will attempt to justify it (see above) and we end 
up in an argument about misinterpretation and censorship without ever getting 
back to constructive debate from which we can all learn. However, you can look 
at this thread for quite a number of examples.

Another place you can go is the video I shared earlier. There are two points at 
which I cringe at my clumsy efforts to be inclusive at the very time I'm trying 
to talk about D Watch it and see if you can spot them. If you can't then why 
not ask someone in a minority group?  Feel free to post your thoughts here - 
there's problem things I don't see yet. Don't worry about calling me out in 
public. I have no concerns being singled out. I make mistakes like the rest of 
us.
Even in this thread I've made mistakes (and been called out on it privately so 
I can continue to improve).

I'll try to do better. We all need to do better. A good first step is to accept 
that there is a problem and ask how we can contribute to fixing it rather than 
spending time denying it exists.
Ross


From: Wade Chandler 
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2019 8:35 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: on "meritocracy"


> On Mar 28, 2019, at 8:34 AM, Naomi Slater  wrote:
>
> On Thu, 28 Mar 2019 at 13:14, Jim Jagielski  wrote:
>
>>
>>> but in practice, this isn't true. and our committer demographics
>>> demonstrate this
>>
>> Then those PMCs have a f'ed up definition and measure of merit.
>>
>
> but this is true for all PMCs, and indeed our board. we have dismal
> representation for non men, non white people, etc, etc, across the whole
> organization. so you're saying that our whole organization has a f*ed up
> definition and measure of merit. which is precisely my point. and why I
> started this thread

How would you suggest individuals actually attract diversity in a given 
cultural context? Software development is inherently a cultural context. Thus, 
Apache is a sub-context of that. So, in this specific context. On one hand an 

Re: on "meritocracy"

[Ross Gardler]

I'll expand a little on "simple infra request" as I'm not sure if Griselda 
knows how to make the simple request.

Short version open a ticket against INFRA at 
https://issues.apache.org/jira/secure/Dashboard.jspa

Longer answer: https://www.apache.org/dev/infra-contact


From: Sam Ruby 
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2019 5:38 PM
To: Apache Community Dev
Subject: Re: on "meritocracy"

On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 8:25 PM Griselda Cuevas  wrote:
>
> Thanks everyone for the encouragement and recognition.
>
> I'm happy to work on the Jira board this weekend. Can I just start a new
> one on my personal account and add people to it? or does someone need to
> create it under an Apache account? - If the later, can someone create it
> and give me admin access?

No private JIRA.  Needs to be ASF hosted.  It is a simple request to
the infra team, and yes, you can have admin access.

> I will then populate it with the initial structure and will seed it with
> components and the deliverables I outlined. I will add the people who
> indicated interest so they can select where they want to contribute.
>
> In terms of comm channels, can we also create a slack channel?

Slack channels tend to disadvantage people who can't be available at a
given time (either due to other commitments or time zones).  We use it
in infra for time sensitive coordination, but my sense is that the D
work should be done in a more... dare I say it... inclusive manner
using mailing lists and JIRA and the like.

> // I will comment on Kenn's point in a separate note, he outlined great
> points for us to put into an overall D strategy
>
> Thanks everyone!

And you deserve thanks for volunteering!

- Sam Ruby

> On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 16:51, Kenneth Knowles  wrote:
>
> > I don't find this off-topic. I am grateful for this profile of Drupal,
> > which I otherwise would not have been exposed to. Thanks Justin!
> >
> > I want to bring the main section headers and key items (curated by me) of
> > the Drupal article on list for ease of reading and archival. Apologies for
> > redundancy with the links that Justin shared.
> >
> > 1. Institute a community-wide code of conduct
> > a. With a working group to escalate to for mediation
> >
> > 2. Elevate a diverse group of leaders
> > a. have a D board to advance initiatives surrounding D
> > b. and a D contribution team to help underrepresented people
> > contribute to the Drupal codebase
> > c. address D in values: "We believe that the Drupal project benefits
> > from a diverse contribution pool, and we strive to foster a welcoming and
> > inclusive culture everywhere Drupal exists—at events, online, and in our
> > workplaces”
> >
> > 3. Make your project accessible to a diverse user base (hits home as I
> > think a lot about how they user base becomes the contributor base)
> >
> > 4. How private companies can promote open source diversity
> > a. for most engineers, open source work is a luxury, and one that is
> > not afforded to underrepresented people
> > b. companies—particularly ones that profit from open source
> > technology—can solve this problem by giving employees time to contribute to
> > the projects the company uses
> >
> > It sounds like the work Gris has been doing is like the work of the Drupal
> > D board and also the Drupal D contribution team.
> >
> > Kenn
> >
> > On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 3:40 PM Justin Mclean 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Slightly off topic but relevant. One think we could do is look at other
> > > foundations and communities and see what they have done that has worked
> > for
> > > them. I come across this interesting artifice this morning [1]. Note it
> > > includes the steps that community took to build a diverse community, I’d
> > > also note we’ve taken some of those steps (e.g. have a code of conduct)
> > but
> > > perhaps shows where we could do more. They have set up a Drupal
> > Diversity &
> > > Inclusion team [5] that spells out it values [2] and has  among other
> > > things guide on moderation, [3] and participation [4], Now the ASF is
> > > different to Drupal and some of those tings may not fit but it would be
> > > useful I think to at least consider them.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Justin
> > >
> > > 1.
> > >
> > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fangel.co%2Fblog%2Fdrupals-angela-byron-on-building-a-diverse-communitydata=02%7C01%7C%7C4983c9df1c4a4894037708d6b4a81089%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636895031250123703sdata=zpG2DWLo5LjGZbiJ%2F7Wjjo5gOxwh%2BK4mjAdUY9bIHiU%3Dreserved=0
> > > 2.
> > >
> > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.drupal.org%2Fdocs%2F8%2Fmodules%2Fdrupal-diversity-inclusion%2Fstatement-of-valuesdata=02%7C01%7C%7C4983c9df1c4a4894037708d6b4a81089%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636895031250123703sdata=mEeVsuD9TOxNsB0wNjOAMNPfWSIltXKcf2U%2BlO1yKVU%3Dreserved=0
> > > 3.
> > >
> > 

Re: on "meritocracy"

[Ross Gardler]

I'm in

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From: Sam Ruby 
Sent: Friday, March 29, 2019 9:07:59 AM
To: Apache Community Dev
Subject: Re: on "meritocracy"

On Fri, Mar 29, 2019 at 11:37 AM Griselda Cuevas
 wrote:
>
> Another thing we should consider is creating a D council, PMC, working
> group (or something alike) for the ASF, and I'd love to be part of it.
>
> Now, I have to share my feelings with discussions on this list. Sometimes I
> struggle to understand when a conversation is ready for action. I feel like
> I've seen so many great ideas, and I don't have visibility into when they
> start to happen or when I should start working on things. This time I'm
> offering to lead... so how could I do it?

TL;DR: identify a list of tangible deliverables, and I'll help you
make it happen.

Longer answer:

Organizationally, this could be one of the things that is done under
the comdev umbrella, it could be something that reports to the
president, or it could be something that reports to the board.

The third option requires a board resolution.  The middle option is
less clear, but in such cases we err on the side of clarity so a board
resolution would be prepared.  No board interaction is required for
the first option, though a notification in the next board report would
be in order.

Operationally, this would start pretty much the way everything starts
at the ASF: with the creation of a mailing list.  What this will be is
a quieter place where people who actually want to do the work get
together and make it happen.  I will caution you that often times,
those people don't show up, and this ultimately means that it becomes
a place to ideas go to die.  And I will say that similar efforts have
died this way in the past.

Part of what makes PMCs work is that they have a tangle product (code)
and deliverables (releases).  This helps keep things focused.

Outside of the Code of Conduct, focus is not a word I would use to
characterize most of the discussions to date on diversity.  We need to
fix that.

So... if we (and by that I'm specifically looking for volunteers) can
identify tangible work products and there is a commitment to provide
written monthly status reports detailing progress towards the
production of those work products, I am prepared to support the
creation of an officer and committee responsible.  I don't believe
that this committee needs board authority (at least not yet), and Ross
and I both clearly are interested in making this work.  This leads me
to recommend a path of the creation of a President's committee.

Circling back, board resolutions are generally evaluated monthly (out
of band is possible, but there is no reason here to force the issue).
The schedule is here:

https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fsvn.apache.org%2Frepos%2Fprivate%2Fcommitters%2Fboard%2Fcalendar.txtdata=02%7C01%7C%7C6df6d7c6edd6470db09808d6b460c3d6%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636894725021001648sdata=TWlEfYaE1iNFNghHa3IJwZMvew%2B3FfqWVsVlFxQK6%2FA%3Dreserved=0

While shooting for April is definitely possible, I would recommend
shooting for May.  And the setting up of a mailing list doesn't need
to wait for the board resolution - if there is sufficient progress, I
can ask the infrastructure team to make it happen.

- Sam Ruby

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Re: on "meritocracy"

[Ross Gardler]

Apologies. At least the first sentence, and first half of the second is true. 
Catching up on a long thread and obviously being lost in who said what.

Back to the main point of the thread :

We should be aware that human nature means we recognize and reward behavior 
that looks like our own behavior. This results in a reinforcement of the status 
quo. It doesn't change things.

We should not be accepting damaging behavior.

We should be calling out mistakes, preferably privately as people don't usually 
mean harm. If we are called out we should consider if it's appropriate, 
apologize and move on. Most importantly we should seek to change that behavior.

As someone who is least affected by this issue I know how hard it is to change 
a behavior that my society has accepted for all of my privileged life. Beating 
people up for who they are is not how we make a difference. I, and others like 
me, did not choose to be white, male and English speaking. However, we can 
choose to be aware of the privilege this brings us. We must seek to break the 
behaviors of a lifetime.

Recognizing the effort in others to learn and adapt, even if imperfect, is how 
we make a difference.

I know from personal experience that this leads to positive action (as opposed 
to talk). Thesr people (and certainly I) will make mistakes, but it doesn't 
mean they are a part of the problem by choice.

Help them learn. Help them adapt.

Ross


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From: Rich Bowen
Sent: Friday, March 29, 7:58 AM
Subject: Re: on "meritocracy"
To: dev@community.apache.org




On 3/28/19 11:28 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> Naomi, you are showing great tenacity and patience here. I fully support your 
> goals, but I do worry that demanding the foundation "police" these things by 
> forcing people to behave in a way you find acceptable is counter-productive.


FWIW, Pierre used the term "policing".

--
Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frcbowen.com%2Fdata=02%7C01%7C%7C0eb4ed7cceb041ed5f0608d6b456f89c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636894682955240661sdata=qfRqpQ8kKe3pMCAWmpB6U9SrhdCMS7mEWUuDZTUMRcg%3Dreserved=0<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frcbowen.com%2F=02%7C01%7C%7C0eb4ed7cceb041ed5f0608d6b456f89c%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636894682955240661=qfRqpQ8kKe3pMCAWmpB6U9SrhdCMS7mEWUuDZTUMRcg%3D=0>
@rbowen

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Re: on "meritocracy"

[Ross Gardler]

 to actionable items. I will thank anyone who 
helps me refine my understating of the problem.

Once again, I believe the way we accelerate the change is not by forcing it, 
but by acting, educating and rewarding.

Think global, act local.

Ross



From: Naomi Slater 
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2019 11:01 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Cc: Sam Ruby
Subject: Re: on "meritocracy"

On Thu 28. Mar 2019 at 18:46, Ross Gardler  wrote:

> Well said...


indeed

>
> "Where we, the ASF, are and continue to be is abnormal.  The difference
> from industry norms is statistically significant.  And durable."
>
> The only way for this to change is for each of us to "be the change".


I disagree with this analysis. I think it shirks our collective
responsibility (as ComDev contributors and Apache members) to our community

what is the purpose of being in an "organization" if we lack the capability
of organizing ourselves as a group

my experience at Apache has taught me that real change, community-wide
change, often only comes about when a few select people put in a lot of
work to make it happen

Congrats Myrle and Joan. We have more geographic diversity in the board too.


wow! I missed this! congrats!

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Re: on "meritocracy"

[Ross Gardler]

Well said...

"Where we, the ASF, are and continue to be is abnormal.  The difference
from industry norms is statistically significant.  And durable."

The only way for this to change is for each of us to "be the change". There are 
people who feel they cannot or don't need to "be the change". Fine. You are 
entitled to your opinion. But you are not entitled to tell others their opinion 
is wrong, unless it is damaging. I'll always see merit in those who are 
inclusive.

On a positive note:
We are making progress ... the board election just closed. We now have two 
women for the first time ever.

Congrats Myrle and Joan. We have more geographic diversity in the board too.


Asking people to put pronoun stickers on badges might seem unnecessary to some


From: Sam Ruby 
Sent: Thursday, March 28, 2019 10:13 AM
To: Apache Community Dev
Subject: Re: on "meritocracy"

Not directly a response to the below, but very much related to it.

If you go to a Node.js conference these days, the very first thing you
do is pick up a badge.  When you do, they ask you to consider putting
on a sticker containing your preferred pronouns.  Shortly thereafter
you realize that the conference is qualitatively different in terms of
inclusion - gender isn't quite a 50/50 split, but I did find myself on
more than one occasion seated surrounded by women - north, south,
east, west.  There also are talks, panels, open discussions on
diversity.

There also are noticeably more people with different gender
orientations, people of color, etc.  Not just in the audience, but
also on the stage.

When people (generally inadvertent) make a remark that could be
considered non-inclusive on a node mailing list, they are generally
called on it (and quickly), and promptly apologize, and the apology is
promptly accepted.  If there are any actions that need to be taken,
they are identified and acted upon.

Where we, the ASF, are and continue to be is abnormal.  The difference
from industry norms is statistically significant.  And durable.

When such topics come up here, the response is contentious and
defensive, long winded, and generally without resolution.

Yes, you will find women at ASF conferences.  Look, there are two over
there, and one more on the other side.  OK, so there may be some talks
where there are more, but there are also some talks where there are
less.

There must be something that we are doing - or not doing - which is
causing all of this.

What saddens me is that I don't know what to suggest.

Enumerating what we are doing (such as Rich did below) is a good
start.  But also acknowledging that we are somehow the cause if it -
either though action or inaction - is also a necessary first step.

- Sam Ruby


On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 12:48 PM Rich Bowen  wrote:
>
>
>
> On 3/28/19 11:58 AM, Pierre Smits wrote:
>
> > I find it sad that there are (board) members who keep saying that the
> > situation must improve (because there are problems regarding Diversity and
> > Inclusion), but when it comes to where it needs to improve (in the projects
> > mostly) they also keep saying (here and other threads also in other fora in
> > the past) that there is nothing to be done from the Foundation downwards to
> > the projects because 'the projects are independent'.
>
> I am not aware of any board members who have said that. Unless you're
> construing my comment in that light. Because that is most definitely not
> what I said.
>
> The Foundation does do stuff "downwards to the projects." We have, in
> fact, established a PMC, named "Community Development" which has that as
> its charter.
>
> Furthermore, EVERY SINGLE MONTH, there is at least one (and usually
> several) response to a project report, encouraging them to more actively
> pursue new committers, lower their bar to entry, actively mentor new
> contributors, and so on.
>
> >
> > In my book there is where the view-points of those persons go of in wrong
> > directions. Yes, projects are expected to operate independently from
> > outside influence. But they can not operate independently from the
> > organisation they reside under. In a page (See [1]) of the ASF it is stated
> > that 'the board delegates the technical direction of all projects to each
> > PMC', but 'are expected to follow corporate policies'. This means that the
> > policies can be created at Foundation level, and can be policed (by the
> > Board, and/or through delegation by a specific office). If the highest body
> > of the Foundation established a strict(er) policy on 'merit awarding'
> > and/or 'Diversity & Inclusion' then it is obliged, with regards to these
> > policies, to:
> >
> > 1. ensure that each of the lower level organisational units (OUs like
> > projects/offices/departments, etc.) acknowledge and apply such policies
>
> Yes, we do that. Daily on board@ and monthly in the board meeting.
>
> > 2. regularly (and independently of the projects and offices) assess the

Re: on "meritocracy"

[Ross Gardler]

No additional comment from me on the word choice. I do agree meritocracy is 
problematic given increasingly popular views on the model in other places - 
I've always been careful to warn that the difference between a meritocracy and 
a oligarchy is minimal. Which brings me to the recognition of merit.

I am never a fan of tools to solve a social problems. Tools do not bring 
visibility, they bring an opportunity to play the system. People shoulf take 
responsibility and actively demonstrate the way things should work. See a merit 
deserving action - call it out with a thank you. If you have the patience I'll 
illustrate this with a story, but feel free to stop reading now as I've made my 
point about tooling being potentially damaging.

Years ago I was brought into a client to help them understand why things were 
failing for them with respect to customer satisfaction. They were hitting all 
their support metrics, such as mean time to resolution, but their CSAT scores 
remained low. Their engineering teams were becoming worried that despite a 
genuine focus on customer needs they seemed to be building something people 
didn't like.

I was brought in as a consultant. I ignored the data they handed to me on day 
one. It came from the tools. I already knew that data was wrong since it told 
me they were meeting targets and their targets were good ones. I started 
talking to people about what they did to contribute to improving CSAT. I 
quickly found that engineering had a good process for prioritizing work that 
support tooling highlighted as problem areas. I found marketing were accurately 
representing current and future features. The sales teams were not over selling 
the product features. Support were picking up tickets and triaging them 
according to their best practice. I was baffled.

So I went to the tools, despite my lack of trust in their data. I started with 
the customer support cases. It looked like every other data set I'd seen 
before. A few tickets took a long time to resolve but they had good attention 
from product, engineering and support, while most tickets were resolved fairly 
quickly. I ran queries on the raw data, rather than relying on the roll-up 
queries the tool provided. That's when I saw it. There was one particular team 
(they worked on 3 x 8 shifts around the globe) who was killing it with respect 
to closing tickets in a timely way, and the team that followed was struggling. 
From the roll up data it looked like the second team struggled with hard 
tickets, though their performance on easier tickets was comparable. When I 
queried on these hard tickets alone I realized they had a tendency to re-open 
previously resolved tickets - and they were almost always hard ones.

I asked the support lead about these two teams. She told me that she had never 
managed to get the poorer team to really step up, there was no strong leader 
and while he and his team did good work, he just couldn't seem to hold his team 
together, new hires quickly quit or moved out of the support role. The better 
team was full of rockstars. She wasn't worried about hiring there because the 
manager just seemed to have a talent for finding the best. Her bigger worry 
there was having capacity to promote those people.

So I dug deeper. What I found was that the "better" team was led by a manager 
who played the system. He taught his team, for example, to close tickets as 
duplicates of newer tickets, even if they weren't related. The tool reported 
their resolution numbers as healthy, but they weren't really working with the 
customer. The team that followed picked up the newer tickets, recognized the 
"mistake", reopened the original and resolved both. The tool reported their 
numbers as poorer, but in reality they were doing way more work.

This is why the manager there couldn't hold his staff. They were fed up of 
correcting the bad work of others. As soon as they realized the others were 
getting promotions and their team was not they left.

The tools hid the truth. Only talking to people can truly recognize 
contribution. It is the responsibility of the people in the community to 
cultivate and recognize merit. In my opinion the best way to do this is to have 
the lowest possible bar. Having an artificially high bar is the real problem 
for lack of recognition. With a low bar one only needs to see a relatively low 
amount of contribution.

[If you are interested in the outcome of the above story... I asked the 
"struggling" manager why he didn't tell the lead what was happening. I never 
got a good answer. The outcome was that the lead fired the questionable 
manager, helped the other manager understand that she always needed to know 
when the process is broken and promoted him. She also put them in charge of 
training and process refinement across all three sites. Six months later they 
could see a very marked difference in their Customer Sat scores.]


From: 

Re: 回复：Re: Establishing an Events PMC?

[Ross Gardler]

To follow up Ted's proposal I think it would be a really good idea for some 
folks to look at models for scaling like the Arduino model Ted links to. The 
organizer of DevOps Days is a day job colleague, I'm sure she would be happy to 
chat with someone about what has worked and what has not.

I wonder if Ted would be willing to interview a few people like this and write 
up the findings for us?

Ross


From: Ross Gardler 
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2019 7:05 PM
To: Rich Bowen; dev@community.apache.org; tedl...@yahoo.com
Subject: Re: 回复：Re: Establishing an Events PMC?

Yes, you can absolutely count on me to help in any way possible. I'd love to be 
a part of closing the loop on what we started all those years ago. I've been 
much less active recently it would be an honor to help you kick of the next 
stage.

Ross


From: Liu Ted 
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2019 6:54 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org; Rich Bowen; dev@community.apache.org
Subject: 回复：Re: Establishing an Events PMC?

Hi Rich, A big +1.
To scale out, we may also refer to how Arduino Day operates 659 events in 106 
countries on March 16 2019. I helped out and participated Arduino Day 2019 - 
Beijing. Please see more details in 
https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fday.arduino.cc%2Fdata=02%7C01%7C%7C774ee88b43b7452088d908d6af341152%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636889035491353769sdata=vSPVxDZhPDZK0zhBc9CGNhQh85PsQDSzRH%2BddK19NlU%3Dreserved=0

Best regards,

Ted Liu,
ASF Member, Sponsor Ambassador, Incubator PMC Member


  2019 年 3 月 23 日周六 1:00，Rich Bowen 写道：

On 3/22/19 12:59 PM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> I like the idea especially the roadshow first to establish a beachhead.  I
> would add that a collocated event might be ok in some circumstances too as
> a first landing.

Yes, I just added collocated as a category in the document I'm working
on. Thanks for that reminder.


> On Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 11:28 Rich Bowen 
>> Several years ago, due to many reasons (let's call it "dysfunction" for
>> now) ConCom - the Conferences Committee - was disbanded by the Board,
>> and replaced with a single individual - myself - designated as VP
>> Conferences. This was largely due to break the gridlock of dealing with
>> 30 people, with 50 opinions, for every single time-sensitive decision
>> around events.
>>
>> So far, so good.
>>
>> As we are faced with a sudden explosive expansion in our official stable
>> of events, we are building ad-hoc processes for managing these.
>>
>> Again, so far, so good. Having dedicated per-event leads is working
>> remarkably well in 2019.
>>
>> I have ... concerns ... going into 2020. With pushes to add events in
>> Brazil, China, South Korea, Japan, India, and who knows where else, I am
>> concerned that this is going to get away from us again. And it's not so
>> much about control, as about having early failures in new markets and
>> harming our chances for the future.
>>
>> I would like, for example, to have policies around how we expand into
>> new regions. Like, say, that you can't do an "ApacheCon" in a new region
>> before doing a "Roadshow" there to scout it out, so to speak. I don't
>> want to squish enthusiasm. I also don't want to suddenly be expected to
>> fund, promote, and organize 8 conference with a machine designed to run
>> two.
>>
>> I digress.
>>
>> I would like to propose the following.
>>
>> 1) That we (primarily, myself, Ross, and any former members of ConCom
>> who are able to participate) clearly document why ConCom failed, and was
>> disbanded. To do this in a dispassionate non-fault-finding way.
>>
>> 2) That we document how the new Events organization will be managed,
>> explicitly documenting ways that we will avoid the failings of ConCom.
>>
>> 3) That we establish a new Events PMC, documenting how it will related
>> to both Marketing and ComDev (since there will always be overlap in
>> those two places).
>>
>> Ross, is this something that you can help me with over the coming 6
>> months or so?
>>
>> --
>> Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com
>> https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frcbowen.com%2Fdata=02%7C01%7C%7C774ee88b43b7452088d908d6af341152%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C636889035491353769sdata=KwNlcCPd77Zbg%2FygYwgge%2B3M%2BMZDMuonjhzlNaTlG60%3Dreserved=0
>> @rbowen
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
>> For additi

Re: 回复：Re: Establishing an Events PMC?

[Ross Gardler]

Yes, you can absolutely count on me to help in any way possible. I'd love to be 
a part of closing the loop on what we started all those years ago. I've been 
much less active recently it would be an honor to help you kick of the next 
stage.

Ross


From: Liu Ted 
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2019 6:54 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org; Rich Bowen; dev@community.apache.org
Subject: 回复：Re: Establishing an Events PMC?

Hi Rich, A big +1.
To scale out, we may also refer to how Arduino Day operates 659 events in 106 
countries on March 16 2019. I helped out and participated Arduino Day 2019 - 
Beijing. Please see more details in 
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fday.arduino.cc%2Fdata=02%7C01%7C%7C586ed0cd64754d8cf99508d6af328e09%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C63688902899250sdata=hANvCxFPhYvJVAD%2FHg%2BfW3tWAMbRQ5TQ1M82CNkTIHM%3Dreserved=0

Best regards,

Ted Liu,
ASF Member, Sponsor Ambassador, Incubator PMC Member


  2019 年 3 月 23 日周六 1:00，Rich Bowen 写道：

On 3/22/19 12:59 PM, Kevin A. McGrail wrote:
> I like the idea especially the roadshow first to establish a beachhead.  I
> would add that a collocated event might be ok in some circumstances too as
> a first landing.

Yes, I just added collocated as a category in the document I'm working
on. Thanks for that reminder.


> On Fri, Mar 22, 2019, 11:28 Rich Bowen 
>> Several years ago, due to many reasons (let's call it "dysfunction" for
>> now) ConCom - the Conferences Committee - was disbanded by the Board,
>> and replaced with a single individual - myself - designated as VP
>> Conferences. This was largely due to break the gridlock of dealing with
>> 30 people, with 50 opinions, for every single time-sensitive decision
>> around events.
>>
>> So far, so good.
>>
>> As we are faced with a sudden explosive expansion in our official stable
>> of events, we are building ad-hoc processes for managing these.
>>
>> Again, so far, so good. Having dedicated per-event leads is working
>> remarkably well in 2019.
>>
>> I have ... concerns ... going into 2020. With pushes to add events in
>> Brazil, China, South Korea, Japan, India, and who knows where else, I am
>> concerned that this is going to get away from us again. And it's not so
>> much about control, as about having early failures in new markets and
>> harming our chances for the future.
>>
>> I would like, for example, to have policies around how we expand into
>> new regions. Like, say, that you can't do an "ApacheCon" in a new region
>> before doing a "Roadshow" there to scout it out, so to speak. I don't
>> want to squish enthusiasm. I also don't want to suddenly be expected to
>> fund, promote, and organize 8 conference with a machine designed to run
>> two.
>>
>> I digress.
>>
>> I would like to propose the following.
>>
>> 1) That we (primarily, myself, Ross, and any former members of ConCom
>> who are able to participate) clearly document why ConCom failed, and was
>> disbanded. To do this in a dispassionate non-fault-finding way.
>>
>> 2) That we document how the new Events organization will be managed,
>> explicitly documenting ways that we will avoid the failings of ConCom.
>>
>> 3) That we establish a new Events PMC, documenting how it will related
>> to both Marketing and ComDev (since there will always be overlap in
>> those two places).
>>
>> Ross, is this something that you can help me with over the coming 6
>> months or so?
>>
>> --
>> Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com
>> https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frcbowen.com%2Fdata=02%7C01%7C%7C586ed0cd64754d8cf99508d6af328e09%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C63688902899250sdata=syaOCGLE4KYjBKwYz3429kqiY4JJv%2FdLNSs%2BGiWlGCc%3Dreserved=0
>> @rbowen
>>
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>>
>>
>

--
Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com
https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frcbowen.com%2Fdata=02%7C01%7C%7C586ed0cd64754d8cf99508d6af328e09%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C63688902899250sdata=syaOCGLE4KYjBKwYz3429kqiY4JJv%2FdLNSs%2BGiWlGCc%3Dreserved=0
@rbowen

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Moderators for comdev

[Ross Gardler]

I'm still listed as a moderator for ComDev but I don't ever seem to take
action on a moderation email. This makes me think I ought to be removed.
Before I request this change can you please confirm if you are an active
moderator OR are willing to become an active moderator.

 

Ross

RE: MSDN Subscription for Apache Committers

[Ross Gardler]

No.

-Original Message-
From: Luciano Resende [mailto:luckbr1...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2017 11:54 AM
To: Apache ComDev <dev@community.apache.org>
Subject: Re: MSDN Subscription for Apache Committers

Ross,

Any chance that MS would actually provide a long term subscription for Apache 
Committers to avoid the issues we are currently seeing with renew process ?

On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 1:14 PM, Ross Gardler <r...@gardler.org> wrote:

> It's OK, go ahead and submit. I'll dedupe if necessary (I'm the first 
> point of failure in the hand over to MS).
>
> Ross
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Leif Hedstrom [mailto:zw...@apache.org]
> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 8:27 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: MSDN Subscription for Apache Committers
>
>
> > On Mar 27, 2017, at 10:16 AM, Ross Gardler <r...@gardler.org> wrote:
> >
> > If it were a year ago yes, please resubmit. I updated the forma 
> > round 6
> months ago when I picked this up (though as I freely acknowledge 
> "picking it up" is over stating things since so many have not got a renewal 
> yet).
>
> Hmmm, I’m not sure when I submitted mine, is there a way we can see 
> the list of pending requests? I’d hate to have everyone bother you 
> personally to find out, or resubmit duplicates.
>
> Cheers,
>
> — leif
>
> >
> > Ross
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Peter Hunsberger [mailto:peter.hunsber...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 7:00 AM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: MSDN Subscription for Apache Committers
> >
> > Hi Ross, I sent in my renewal likely a year ago and pinged you after 
> > I
> did not hear back in a month or so.  Should I re-submit?
> >
> > Peter Hunsberger
> >
> > On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 2:48 AM, Ross Gardler <r...@gardler.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Indeed this is messed up on the MS side (I work for MS I can say 
> >> that
> >> ;-)
> >>
> >> I'm really sorry that the majority of people are having problems 
> >> with this offer. I can reassure you that if you filled in the form 
> >> I have your details and will follow through ASAP. Unfortunately 
> >> that is truly not quickly enough, but this is a complex process 
> >> that costs the company a great deal of money. Patience please.
> >>
> >> Ross
> >>
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Ishan Chattopadhyaya [mailto:ichattopadhy...@gmail.com]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 7:55 AM
> >> To: dev@community.apache.org
> >> Subject: Re: MSDN Subscription for Apache Committers
> >>
> >> Here's some info:
> >> https://lists.gt.net/lucene/java-dev/341248?page=last
> >>
> >> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 8:23 PM, Bryan Rosander 
> >> <brosan...@apache.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I had a similar experience a few months ago.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> Bryan
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 5:44 AM, Lars Francke 
> >>> <larsfran...@apache.org>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I had the same experience as Pavel. Tried last year using that 
> >>>> form but
> >>> got
> >>>> no reply.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Piergiorgio Lucidi < 
> >>>> piergior...@apache.org>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I need to renew my MSDN subscription.
> >>>>> Does anybody knows something about this?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have just retried to submit my renewal request using that form.
> >>>>> Thanks.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>> PJ
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2017-03-22 7:59 GMT+01:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <ptupit...@apache.org>:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> There is
> >>>>>> https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/donated-
> >>>>> licenses/msdn.txt
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But I tried it a couple of times last year and got no reply.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:45 A

RE: MSDN Subscription for Apache Committers

[Ross Gardler]

It's OK, go ahead and submit. I'll dedupe if necessary (I'm the first point of 
failure in the hand over to MS).

Ross

-Original Message-
From: Leif Hedstrom [mailto:zw...@apache.org] 
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 8:27 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: MSDN Subscription for Apache Committers


> On Mar 27, 2017, at 10:16 AM, Ross Gardler <r...@gardler.org> wrote:
> 
> If it were a year ago yes, please resubmit. I updated the forma round 6 
> months ago when I picked this up (though as I freely acknowledge "picking it 
> up" is over stating things since so many have not got a renewal yet).

Hmmm, I’m not sure when I submitted mine, is there a way we can see the list of 
pending requests? I’d hate to have everyone bother you personally to find out, 
or resubmit duplicates.

Cheers,

— leif

> 
> Ross
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Peter Hunsberger [mailto:peter.hunsber...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 7:00 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: MSDN Subscription for Apache Committers
> 
> Hi Ross, I sent in my renewal likely a year ago and pinged you after I did 
> not hear back in a month or so.  Should I re-submit?
> 
> Peter Hunsberger
> 
> On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 2:48 AM, Ross Gardler <r...@gardler.org> wrote:
> 
>> Indeed this is messed up on the MS side (I work for MS I can say that
>> ;-)
>> 
>> I'm really sorry that the majority of people are having problems with 
>> this offer. I can reassure you that if you filled in the form I have 
>> your details and will follow through ASAP. Unfortunately that is 
>> truly not quickly enough, but this is a complex process that costs 
>> the company a great deal of money. Patience please.
>> 
>> Ross
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Ishan Chattopadhyaya [mailto:ichattopadhy...@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 7:55 AM
>> To: dev@community.apache.org
>> Subject: Re: MSDN Subscription for Apache Committers
>> 
>> Here's some info:
>> https://lists.gt.net/lucene/java-dev/341248?page=last
>> 
>> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 8:23 PM, Bryan Rosander 
>> <brosan...@apache.org>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> I had a similar experience a few months ago.
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Bryan
>>> 
>>> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 5:44 AM, Lars Francke 
>>> <larsfran...@apache.org>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> I had the same experience as Pavel. Tried last year using that form 
>>>> but
>>> got
>>>> no reply.
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Piergiorgio Lucidi < 
>>>> piergior...@apache.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> 
>>>>> I need to renew my MSDN subscription.
>>>>> Does anybody knows something about this?
>>>>> 
>>>>> I have just retried to submit my renewal request using that form.
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> PJ
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 2017-03-22 7:59 GMT+01:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <ptupit...@apache.org>:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> There is
>>>>>> https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/donated-
>>>>> licenses/msdn.txt
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But I tried it a couple of times last year and got no reply.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Isuru Haththotuwa <
>>>> isurulu...@gmail.com
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Is $subject still offered? Mine has expired, and could not find 
>>>>>>> a
>>> way
>>>>> to
>>>>>>> renew it. Found [1] in mail archives, but leads to a 404.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> [1]. 
>>>>>>> https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/donated-
>>>>>>> licenses/msdn-subscription.html
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Piergiorgio Lucidi
>>>>> Technology Evangelist @ Sourcesense Author and Technical Reviewer 
>>>>> @ Packt Publishing Mentor / PMC Member / Committer @ Apache 
>>>>> Software Foundation Wiki Gardener / Forum Moderator / Certified 
>>>>> Instructor, Engineer and Administrator @ Alfresco Top Community 
>>>>> Contributor @ Crafter Project Leader / Committer @ JBoss 
>>>>> http://www.open4dev.com
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
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RE: MSDN Subscription for Apache Committers

[Ross Gardler]

If it were a year ago yes, please resubmit. I updated the forma round 6 months 
ago when I picked this up (though as I freely acknowledge "picking it up" is 
over stating things since so many have not got a renewal yet).

Ross

-Original Message-
From: Peter Hunsberger [mailto:peter.hunsber...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 7:00 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: MSDN Subscription for Apache Committers

Hi Ross, I sent in my renewal likely a year ago and pinged you after I did not 
hear back in a month or so.  Should I re-submit?

Peter Hunsberger

On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 2:48 AM, Ross Gardler <r...@gardler.org> wrote:

> Indeed this is messed up on the MS side (I work for MS I can say that 
> ;-)
>
> I'm really sorry that the majority of people are having problems with 
> this offer. I can reassure you that if you filled in the form I have 
> your details and will follow through ASAP. Unfortunately that is truly 
> not quickly enough, but this is a complex process that costs the 
> company a great deal of money. Patience please.
>
> Ross
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Ishan Chattopadhyaya [mailto:ichattopadhy...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 7:55 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: MSDN Subscription for Apache Committers
>
> Here's some info:
> https://lists.gt.net/lucene/java-dev/341248?page=last
>
> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 8:23 PM, Bryan Rosander <brosan...@apache.org>
> wrote:
>
> > I had a similar experience a few months ago.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Bryan
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 5:44 AM, Lars Francke 
> > <larsfran...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > I had the same experience as Pavel. Tried last year using that 
> > > form but
> > got
> > > no reply.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Piergiorgio Lucidi < 
> > > piergior...@apache.org>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I need to renew my MSDN subscription.
> > > > Does anybody knows something about this?
> > > >
> > > > I have just retried to submit my renewal request using that form.
> > > > Thanks.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > PJ
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2017-03-22 7:59 GMT+01:00 Pavel Tupitsyn <ptupit...@apache.org>:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > There is
> > > > > https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/donated-
> > > > licenses/msdn.txt
> > > > >
> > > > > But I tried it a couple of times last year and got no reply.
> > > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Isuru Haththotuwa <
> > > isurulu...@gmail.com
> > > > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Is $subject still offered? Mine has expired, and could not 
> > > > > > find a
> > way
> > > > to
> > > > > > renew it. Found [1] in mail archives, but leads to a 404.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [1]. 
> > > > > > https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/donated-
> > > > > > licenses/msdn-subscription.html
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Piergiorgio Lucidi
> > > > Technology Evangelist @ Sourcesense Author and Technical 
> > > > Reviewer @ Packt Publishing Mentor / PMC Member / Committer @ 
> > > > Apache Software Foundation Wiki Gardener / Forum Moderator / 
> > > > Certified Instructor, Engineer and Administrator @ Alfresco Top 
> > > > Community Contributor @ Crafter Project Leader / Committer @ 
> > > > JBoss http://www.open4dev.com
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
>
>


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RE: MSDN Subscription for Apache Committers

[Ross Gardler]

I just checked. It's there right now. But it is only accessible to ASF 
committers.

-Original Message-
From: Isuru Haththotuwa [mailto:isurulu...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 3:59 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: MSDN Subscription for Apache Committers

On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 12:29 PM, Pavel Tupitsyn 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> There is
> https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/donated-licenses/msdn.
> txt

Unable to connect. Can others access this?

>
>
> But I tried it a couple of times last year and got no reply.
>
> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Isuru Haththotuwa 
> 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > Is $subject still offered? Mine has expired, and could not find a 
> > way to renew it. Found [1] in mail archives, but leads to a 404.
> >
> > [1]. https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/donated-
> > licenses/msdn-subscription.html
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
>



--
Thanks and Regards,
Isuru


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RE: MSDN Subscription for Apache Committers

[Ross Gardler]

Indeed this is messed up on the MS side (I work for MS I can say that ;-)

I'm really sorry that the majority of people are having problems with this 
offer. I can reassure you that if you filled in the form I have your details 
and will follow through ASAP. Unfortunately that is truly not quickly enough, 
but this is a complex process that costs the company a great deal of money. 
Patience please.

Ross

-Original Message-
From: Ishan Chattopadhyaya [mailto:ichattopadhy...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2017 7:55 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: MSDN Subscription for Apache Committers

Here's some info:
https://lists.gt.net/lucene/java-dev/341248?page=last

On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 8:23 PM, Bryan Rosander 
wrote:

> I had a similar experience a few months ago.
>
> Thanks,
> Bryan
>
> On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 5:44 AM, Lars Francke 
> wrote:
>
> > I had the same experience as Pavel. Tried last year using that form 
> > but
> got
> > no reply.
> >
> > On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Piergiorgio Lucidi < 
> > piergior...@apache.org>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I need to renew my MSDN subscription.
> > > Does anybody knows something about this?
> > >
> > > I have just retried to submit my renewal request using that form.
> > > Thanks.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > PJ
> > >
> > >
> > > 2017-03-22 7:59 GMT+01:00 Pavel Tupitsyn :
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > There is
> > > > https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/donated-
> > > licenses/msdn.txt
> > > >
> > > > But I tried it a couple of times last year and got no reply.
> > > >
> > > > On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 6:45 AM, Isuru Haththotuwa <
> > isurulu...@gmail.com
> > > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > Is $subject still offered? Mine has expired, and could not 
> > > > > find a
> way
> > > to
> > > > > renew it. Found [1] in mail archives, but leads to a 404.
> > > > >
> > > > > [1]. https://svn.apache.org/repos/private/committers/donated-
> > > > > licenses/msdn-subscription.html
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Piergiorgio Lucidi
> > > Technology Evangelist @ Sourcesense Author and Technical Reviewer 
> > > @ Packt Publishing Mentor / PMC Member / Committer @ Apache 
> > > Software Foundation Wiki Gardener / Forum Moderator / Certified 
> > > Instructor, Engineer and Administrator @ Alfresco Top Community 
> > > Contributor @ Crafter Project Leader / Committer @ JBoss 
> > > http://www.open4dev.com
> > >
> >
>


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Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Ross Gardler]

I say "don't feed the troll".

Those who feel this is important should carry. Those with other views need not 
participate.

Ross

---
Twitter: @rgardler


From: Shawn McKinney 
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2016 7:45:43 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey


> On Dec 19, 2016, at 8:31 PM, Peter West  wrote:
>
> The ASF has free software, freely produced by anyone who wants to put his or 
> her hand up.  Talk about “diversity” is deeply divisive, and all of the BS 
> that accompanies it is the antithesis of freedom.  It is the impulse of petty 
> totalitarians who are determined to impose their views on others, and to 
> marginalise and denigrate and demonise those who think…diversely. Need I 
> mention Brendan Eich here?
>
> So keep this stuff out of the ASF, please.  You are free to pursue whatever 
> other (non-software) obsessions you like in your own time, and those big 
> software houses with their diversity departments will accomodate you at work.

Confused by this viewpoint.  Here we have a set of statistics (thanks Sharon) 
that provides insight into the types of people that participate.  If that info 
can then be put into use and expands our committer base beyond the typical into 
the atypical we would then produce more/better software.  What’s wrong with 
that?  I see only practical usages from this but maybe I’m just being naive?

Shawn
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RE: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey

[Ross Gardler]

The ASF is a volunteer run organization. We have volunteers who care. They are 
volunteering their scarce resources to help address an issue that many (myself 
included) feel is important.



You may disagree with the importance but since nobody requires or expects your 
participation that’s just fine.



Sent from Mail for Windows 10



From: Peter West
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2016 2:46 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Results: ASF Committer Diversity Survey



This is one of the first messages you've received from p...@pbw.id.au. Learn 
how we recognize email senders at http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification

Why does the ASF give a tinker’s damn about diversity? Why are scarce resources 
being devoted to it? Seriously.

—
Peter West
p...@pbw.id.au
“I am the handmaid of the Lord; let it be to me according to your word.”

> On 19 Dec 2016, at 11:36 pm, Sharan F  wrote:
>
> Hello Everyone
>
> A big thank you to everyone that has helped or participated in getting the 
> Committer Diversity Survey out, and also to all the committers that responded 
> to the survey. It has been really good to be able to collect this information 
> and see what it tells us about our committer base.
>
> I've loaded the main data and graphs from the survey onto the Community 
> Development wiki (see link below)
>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcwiki.apache.org%2Fconfluence%2Fdisplay%2FCOMDEV%2FASF%2BCommitter%2BDiversity%2BSurvey%2B-%2B2016=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7Caa934e1c336845786ff508d42860d25e%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636177843696193690=yQ9va4jFjLut0u64HpyzOkM0r8JycGjB7Wl7O7XHExE%3D=0
>
> In total we received 765 responses (out of a 5861 committer base at the time 
> the survey was run) so around a 13% response rate.
>
> We also got 111 feedback comments of which 29 did not give their permission 
> to share or from quote their comments.
>
> I've categorised all the comments into various themes / topics with the main 
> ones as follows:
>   • Suggestions for improvements within the ASF
>   • Suggestions for improvements to the survey (or any future ones)
>   • Thanks / positive feedback about the ASF and/or survey
>   • Feedback and ideas around diversity
> Next steps will be:
>   • Continue to analyse the information and identify any potential 
> Community Development related actions
>   • Start discussion threads on the various themes and topics raised to 
> see if they will result in additional actions
>   • Discuss feedback and diversity ideas and if necessary, integrate into 
> diversity strategy
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
>


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Re: Adding some statistics to projects.a.o?

[Ross Gardler]

The problem I see is that it looks like we are flat lining. If course what is 
happening is there are growing projects, stable projects and shrinking 
projects, together it looks flat.

I find it misrepresentative as a result.

Ross

---
Twitter: @rgardler


From: Daniel Gruno 
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2016 11:07:45 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Adding some statistics to projects.a.o?

I added an initial stats page at
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fprojects.apache.org%2Fstatistics.html=02%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C18b1039a00eb4832058808d3fdcaffae%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C636131020722880473=WGgD5RxdxoR6wo2DYWkBaqsVKqyYQAmw44032Mp0Mpk%3D=0
 - assuming no one objects,
I'll add it to the top menu of the other pages in a day or so.

Do peruse - anything we need to add/edit?

With regards,
Daniel.

On 10/26/2016 01:07 PM, Daniel Gruno wrote:
> Hi folks,
> I was wondering, since we have full access to Snoot for the ASF, why not
> take advantage of that and add a statistics page to projects.apache.org,
> showing the various live stats available (no. of commits/committers,
> largest repos by size/commits, proper language breakdown, relationship
> mapping, mail stats etc).
>
> I was inclined to JFDI, but I'd love to hear what others think about
> this. If I don't hear any loud objections, I'll add a stats page today,
> and we can see if it's of any use :)
>
> Comments? Suggestions? :)
>
> With regards,
> Daniel.
>
> -
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Re: On wearing multiple hats

[Ross Gardler]

First, I'm tired of hearing it too but let's not be fooled, most of the time it 
comes from people ill informed about how the ASF works.

We use social controls within the projects and we have a fully independent 
board to handle escalations should a community member feel that their (or 
anothers) merit not be recognized.

If this is breaking down then its a problem within the PMC not with the 
process, which has served us well for many years across many projects and 
should, IMHO, serve us well for many more. Rather than starting to look for a 
solution to a problem purebred by others perhaps we should look at why they 
have this perception.

Here's my thoughts...

Open source, in general, has changed. Its gone from mostly individual hackers 
from small collaborating companies "scratching their own itch" to mostly big 
business and will funded startups paying individuals who sometimes don't care 
on a personal level. This has resulted in the emergence of a different flavor 
of open source. One in which money and metrics count more than community and 
code. I'm the money and metrics model success means market disruption rather 
than collaboration on code.

I maintain that the Apache Way is still a highly valuable and repeatable 
process that when applied correctly brings the highest chance of success (where 
success is valuable open source code). It is a process that is designed to 
ensure that those who care on a personal level have as much influence as those 
who are motivated by external need. It is a process that leaves money and 
metrics at the door but recognizes community and code contributions quickly.

I'm not a fan of metrics. They are often misleading and allow any story to be 
told. I'm much more interested in people taking responsibility for the health 
of their community than taking the easy route and monitoring an arbitrary 
metric. Those people should be working within project PMCs to ensure all 
contributions (code or otherwise) are being recognized. They should be 
identifying new committees not a "number of commits" metric that ignores the 
individual who facilitates consensus and merit recognition on our mailing lists.

If a PMC is devoid of such individuals then it is nothing more than a shared 
code base regardless of how many new committers are brought in. Those projects 
exist, but they should not exist in the ASF where we stand for "community 
before code".

The current metric, reported quarterly, to a vendor neutral and member elected 
board is "last addition of a committer". This is good. When it goes a long time 
the board should ask "why". Sometimes its because a project is in maintenance 
mode (no problem with that) other times its because a PMC is not recognizing 
contributions and needs reminding.

Do we really need metrics? Perhaps we need more awareness in our communities 
about why building a personal profile in a project is good for both career and 
community. Then we can help people build those personal profiles by ensuring we 
recognizing all contributions that bring stability, independence and health to 
a project community.

Ross



---
Twitter: @rgardler


From: Isabel Drost-Fromm 
Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2016 12:50:21 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: On wearing multiple hats

Pre-text: This conversation started among several members of the ASF, you are
seeing this message here, as it was suggested to have the discussion on a
public mailing list so everyone can participate.


Hi,

tl;dr: I'm tired of hearing Apache is "where large firms dump code (to break the
market for other or to avoid looking bad for abandoning it", I'm also tired of
hearing that Apache is where projects are controlled by corporate interests
under the disguise of some Apache Way process. I would like to figure out
whether this is actually true based on numbers instead of subjective
perceptions. If it is true I would like to figure out if and how we need to fix
this.


Longer version: Every now and then I hear people complain either privately or
publicly [1] that people working on Apache projects who are not paid to do that
work and have don't have the luxury to participate full-time are facing a hard
time getting into our communities.

Similarly every now and then we see projects running into trademark issues,
conflicts of interest with their employers, trouble with wearing too many hats
[2,3] (though everytime I hear about wearing more than one hat I have to think
of the following lightning talk [4]).

I don't think handwavery statements will get us very far. Maybe it makes sense
to think about the following first:

- If projects are making progress (getting new releases out, getting new
  features implemented, getting bugs and security vulnerabilities addressed), do
  we care about how they are governed? Why do we care if we do? About which
  aspects do we care?

- Given the influx of projects into the incubator (and the number of 

Re: recognizing valuable non-code contributions

[Ross Gardler]

Many more than one, in fact one of the early members fits this category.

---
Twitter: @rgardler


From: hedh...@gmail.com  on behalf of Niclas Hedhman 

Sent: Friday, October 14, 2016 4:11:59 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: recognizing valuable non-code contributions

Reminder, ASF has at least one *Member* who doesn't (didn't?) know how to
operate source control. But very valuable to the foundation in other ways.

Cheers

On Fri, Oct 14, 2016 at 11:04 PM, sebb  wrote:

> On 14 October 2016 at 15:13, A. Soroka  wrote:
> > I was responding to a previous message from Greg Chase:
> >
> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flists.apache.org%2Fthread.html%2F34f2f4859aac61141cfe903a692c58=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C71298d6b19d14078a42f08d3f487914d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1=snrwvush6yedeeYJJFAgKSxlx7GCT4%2FOHFiZdhP3jnQ%3D=0
> 06e50282eb6ca388a7f8959d35@%3Cdev.community.apache.org%3E
> >
> > but perhaps I read too much into his remark "As a frequent non-code
> contributor to several projects, having people like us as PMC (or PPMC)
> members seems to do the trick."
>
> I see.
>
> In order to commit, one must be a committer, but the reverse is not true.
> People with committer status don't have to commit code.
> They may commit docn or not commit at all.
>
> > ---
> > A. Soroka
> > The University of Virginia Library
> >
> >> On Oct 14, 2016, at 10:08 AM, sebb  wrote:
> >>
> >> On 14 October 2016 at 12:16, A. Soroka  wrote:
> >>> Thanks, community thinkers!
> >>>
> >>> The consensus is overwhelming for being generous with committer status.
> >>>
> >>> (Additionally, just as a point of record, it seems that at least some
> projects are indeed giving PMC membership without committer status, so that
> does seem to be reasonable Apache-fu, when appropriate.)
> >>
> >> I'm not sure what you mean by "committer status" here.
> >>
> >> To become a PMC member currently requires an ASF login and this
> >> automatically gives committer karma on many projects.
> >> To get an ASF login requires an ICLA.
> >>
> >> AIUI there are no plans to relax these requirements.
> >>
> >>> ---
> >>> A. Soroka
> >>> The University of Virginia Library
> >>>
>  On Oct 13, 2016, at 9:30 PM, Shane Curcuru 
> wrote:
> 
>  Luciano Resende wrote on 10/13/16 9:20 PM:
> > On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 6:06 PM, Rich Bowen 
> wrote:
> >
> >> On Oct 13, 2016 12:26, "Daniel Gruno"  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Top-posting because yay ponies!
> >>> We've elected people committers in HTTPd solely due to them
> helping out
> >>> on IRC. There is no rule that says you must write anything
> down in a
> >>> file (code or documentation or otherwise) to become a committer :)
> >>>
> >>> Any contribution can count towards merit.
> >>
> >> Also, more than one person who was made a docs committer on httpd
> went on
> >> to make small code contributions. And some not so small. Point
> being, when
> >> you extend trust, most people will rise to that level.
> >>
> >> I'm a strong believer in handing out commit early and easy. If
> someone
> >> breaks something, revert it. No harm done.
> >>
> >>
> > +1, I just wished some of the existing projects are watching this
> thread.
> >
>  This is exactly the kind of helpful guidance that folks should feel
> free
>  to write content for the ComDev website.  Much easier to share when
> it's
>  at a permanent URL.
> 
>  https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fcommunity.apache.org%2Fnewbiefaq.html%23websitecms=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7C71298d6b19d14078a42f08d3f487914d%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1=y1bNNtOLtvtkL0NK7b8OGwQZhd51xOf4rkSFIR9NJVs%3D=0
> 
>  And using the CMS, anyone can make suggested changes just from a web
>  browser - even non-committers!
> 
>  - Shane
> 
>  -
>  To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
>  For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> 
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -
> >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> >>>
> >>
> >> -
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org
> >>
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org
> > For 

Re: recognizing valuable non-code contributions

[Ross Gardler]

My preferred approach is option 1. If you document the role of "committee" as 
"someone who is committed to the project" then this works well.

---
Twitter: @rgardler


From: A. Soroka 
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 6:50:50 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: recognizing valuable non-code contributions

Hello, community-builders!

I (ajs6f) am writing from Apache Jena. We've been tossing around a question 
that would certainly benefit from the wisdom and experience on this list. We 
have inside the community around Jena persons who have done really good work 
for the project in such ways as answering questions, providing helpful 
examples, suggesting useful improvements and documentation, and so forth, but 
who have not made code contributions. We'd very much like to recognize and 
reward these people for their excellent efforts, but the particular role of 
"committer" doesn't seem obviously appropriate to all of us. We were wondering 
how other projects have dealt with similar circumstances. We've come up with a 
couple of possibilities:

1) Just elect these folks as committers with the understanding that anyone 
responsible enough to be at the heart of the community will presumably not do 
anything rash with committer privileges, and anyway, version control is there 
for a reason.

2) Create some kind of new non-committer role within the project  (e.g. 
"Community Expert") for these folks that might provide some privileges (e.g. 
special rights/permissions in Jira or to the documentation base) without full 
committer rights to the code base.

3) Elect these people to membership in the PMC _without_ electing them 
committers. We're not totally sure whether this is actually possible within the 
Apache framework, so one question of fact we have is whether this is in fact a 
possibility.

Any thoughts, advice, experience very welcome!

---
A. Soroka ; Apache Jena






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RE: [Fwd: Time to propose a CS Capstone Project!]

[Ross Gardler]

I supervised a capstone project last year. The overhead was significant but, 
theoretically, the reward was good. The problem was that, in my case, the 
students did not provide patches as part of their work. Instead we got a 
monster patch which is still sitting in JIRA waiting for me to find the time to 
review it.

This is not necessarily the students fault. I could have been more forceful, or 
I could have been more hands-on and helped them get set up. But the lesson 
learned is that putting an hour a week into these projects is not enough.

That being said, if I had 3 hours a week to put into this I would certainly do 
it again.

Ross

> -Original Message-
> From: shath...@e-z.net [mailto:shath...@e-z.net]
> Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 11:35 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: [Fwd: Time to propose a CS Capstone Project!]
> 
> I have participated in Oregon State University (Corvallis, Oregon USA)
> undergraduate senior projects in the past. The Capstone program is an
> opportunity for our open source software communities to propose a three-
> term project for students and provide mentors to the projects.  The mentors
> get to interact with students and their evaluation becomes a part of their
> performance evaluation grade.
> 
> These Capstone university projects can readily support the Apache Software
> Foundation health.
> 
> I live and work within commute distance of the university.  One of the
> previous projects had a mentor in Denmark.  International cooperation can be
> accommodated.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Steven J. Hathaway
> shathaway@a.o
> 
>  Original Message 
> Subject: Time to propose a CS Capstone Project!
> From:"D. Kevin McGrath" 
> Date:Mon, August 22, 2016 12:30 pm
> To:  shath...@e-z.net
> --
> 
> 
> Colleagues --
> 
> Have you always wanted a particular software tool developed for your use,
> but have never had the time to do it yourself? Well then, read on. Have I got
> a deal for you!
> 
> My name is Kevin McGrath. I am the instructor who runs the OSU Computer
> Science Senior Capstone class. The Capstone class is a 3-quarter (Fall, 
> Winter,
> Spring)
> "career preparation" experience. The major piece of this is doing a 
> significant
> 3 member team project.
> 
> When the students come to the first class on September 24, I want to present
> them with a list of exciting, creative, and real-experience software
> engineering project possibilities. This is where you come in. I am looking for
> you to use your needs and experience to propose those project possibilities.
> 
> A web site has been setup to give you more information, and let you enter
> and edit your project proposals:
> 
> 
>   https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fe
> ecs.oregonstate.edu%2fcapstone%2fsubmission%2f=01%7c01%7cRoss.
> Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c69dffb91914e465f88b908d3cb068ca9%7c72f98
> 8bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=Y5%2f34BYPOXEwKHTC0sm4jNG
> QVxTqoxU7RGLoJBj02S0%3d
> 
> You have until September 15 to get yours in. If any clarification would be
> necessary, you'd have from the 15th to the first day of term to clarify.
> That is
> when the students will see them, and will start the selection process. In that
> process, I ask the students to "bid" on their top 5 choices. I ultimately make
> the final project assignments, but endeavour to take their preferences into
> account. I find I get better results that way.
> 
> There will likely be more projects proposed than students teams to do them.
> *So, really sell your project.* Definitely don't understate its cool-ness 
> factor!
> The more excited you sound in the description, the more excited they are
> likely to be when doing it. Excitement is contagious! If you'd be interested 
> in
> pitching your project to the students in person, please let me know!
> Personally pitched projects tend to generate more excitement from the
> students.
> 
> After projects have been selected, we will follow a client-contractor model in
> which I "run" the software contract company and you are one of our valued
> clients. The students "report" to me, but you, as client, work directly with
> them to design the requirements, set the timeline, approve the progress. You
> also get to help assign grades.
> 
> This year I'm asking you to explicitly distinguish the projects that are 
> research
> oriented vs. those that are more software engineering focused. If you would
> like to propose a research project for the students, please indicate this 
> using
> the Additional Comments field.
> 
> Given the nature of a research oriented project, I find that better results 
> are
> had if the students are initially aware of the type of project. If you are 
> unsure,
> that is not a problem. I'm happy to work with you on the details of your
> project -- just submit it, and 

Re: Webinar Request for Hackbright Academy

[Ross Gardler]

I can help

Get Outlook for iOS




On Wed, Jun 29, 2016 at 2:29 AM -0700, "Sharan Foga" 
> wrote:

Hi Everyone

We've had a request for a webinar for Hackbright Academy for the week of 25th 
– 29th July.  Their preferred date is 28th July at noon Pacific Standard Time.

Audience:  Their current and graduate students.
Maximum Duration: 60 minutes

They have asked for the webinar to cover the following:

- Introduction to the ASF
- Why choose to contribute to Open Source ?
- An overview of 3 ASF Python related projects and how to get involved
- Q

Please let me know who is interested or available to help out or participate.

Thanks
Sharan

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RE: Code of Conduct - Over Responding

[Ross Gardler]

+1



This is not really a CoC issue, more of a best practice one.



Sent from my Windows 10 phone



From: Rich Bowen
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2016 5:17 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Code of Conduct - Over Responding



The challenge with a CoC is knowing when to quit before becoming the
thought police. Also, it should be things that are measurable and
enforceable. I don't think this is either.

What you are suggesting is really good advice, but isn't something we can
enforce with policy.
On Jun 5, 2016 8:00 PM, "Niall Pemberton"  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I really like the code of conduct, but I think it would be good to include
> something about sending too many emails. Sometimes you get people who
> dominate a thread, responding to almost everyone and they drain the energy
> of others to take part.
>
> My suggestion is to add a sentence to the "Be concise" section, perhaps
> something like the following:
>
> "Try not to dominate a thread, you don't have to respond to everyone. Pause
> between sending emails to give others an opportunity to contribute to the
> debate."
>
> WDYT?
>
> Niall
>

RE: How to edit a "Help Wanted" task

[Ross Gardler]

I asked Daniel about this at apachecon. Delete and recreate is the only option 
(unless someone wants to contribute a patch, which would be very welcome).



Sent from my Windows 10 phone



From: Rich Bowen
Sent: Sunday, June 5, 2016 6:54 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: How to edit a "Help Wanted" task



That feature is not yet implemented.
On Jun 5, 2016 16:45, "Dominik Stadler"  wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> Maybe I am just blind, but I cannot find a way to edit an existing task
> that I created before.
>
> The main page at 
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fhelpwanted.apache.org%2f=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c0140ee6fa4f94069308308d38dad72a7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=o9jpHI91rkxXFukJ8JLKPSqff3cRvdI95DrQlQJZDos%3d?
>  shows "I am an Apache
> committer and wish to add or edit tasks.", but it always brings me to a
> page where I can define a new task, not edit any existing ones...
>
> If possible please cc to cen...@apache.org as I am not subscribed to dev@
> currently.
>
> Thanks... Dominik.
>

RE: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?)

[Ross Gardler]

Mark shared the names with me privately. I have no concerns about the people, 
but I do have a thought (this may have already been addressed, if so forgive 
me)...

If I understand correctly each of these people would be identified as a contact 
point. They would be an option for a complainant.

My only concern is that there needs to be a single channel for official 
complaints. That should remain President (at least while the sitting President 
is willing to take on that responsibility). I do think that having a list of 
volunteers willing to address things in an unofficial capacity is a good idea. 
In my experience that vast majority of complaints are unofficial, having other 
avenues for these cases is a very good thing.

The reason I believe we should keep a single channel for official complaints is 
to ensure consistency in the way we handle them. Furthermore, some of the 
volunteers are not officers and thus have less protection should things go 
wrong.

Ross

> -Original Message-
> From: Mark Thomas [mailto:ma...@apache.org]
> Sent: Monday, May 30, 2016 11:55 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on
> Apache Projects?)
> 
> On 30/05/2016 18:30, Ross Gardler wrote:
> > Yes. Thanks to everyone working this out.
> 
> Done. Thanks Marvin.
> 
> The next step is to expand the list of contacts. The call for volunteers was
> made on the private members@ mailing list so, in keeping with the ASF policy
> of not copying information from a private list to a public one, I won't list 
> those
> volunteers here. What I will do is pass the list to Ross for him to review. 
> Once
> reviewed, I'll check with each of the volunteers to make sure they are happy
> being listed as a PoC and, if they are, get them added.
> 
> It was suggested that each listed volunteer should include a link to a picture
> and a brief bio. Any concerns or objections? If not, can I suggest that the
> volunteers create
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https:%2f%2fhome.apach
> e.org%2f~availid%2fcoc.html=01%7C01%7CRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.
> com%7C1dace448ba26476c1e2808d388bbfc6b%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d
> 7cd011db47%7C1=kQlQ%2f%2fgGV0s9Ze0DJUZz2iTjKRo1r1CsMlsQ64
> TOW54%3d and we link to that?
> 
> Mark
> 
> > From: Mark Thomas<mailto:ma...@apache.org>
> > Sent: Monday, May 30, 2016 1:53 AM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
> > Subject: Re: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate
> on
> > Apache Projects?)
> >
> >
> >
> > On 29/05/2016 23:07, Ross Gardler wrote:
> >> For the record I do have training in counselling. Its fairly lightweight 
> >> and
> basically boils down to knowing how to respond and when to escalate to a
> specialist.
> >
> > Ross,
> >
> > There looks to be general agreement that archiving abuse reports is a
> > bad idea. On the grounds that handling these is a president@ function,
> > are you happy for Marvin's patch to be applied where you are listed
> > with your @a.o email as the only volunteer (and a note that the list
> > is expected to be expanded shortly)?
> >
> > Assuming you are OK with this, we can get this done and then discuss
> > expanding that list of volunteers and some of the other improvements
> > that have been suggested.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> >>
> >> From: Ross Gardler<mailto:ross.gard...@microsoft.com>
> >> Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 3:06 PM
> >> To: Joseph Schaefer<mailto:joe_schae...@yahoo.com.INVALID>;
> >> dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
> >> Cc: Joseph Schaefer<mailto:joe_schae...@yahoo.com.INVALID>
> >> Subject: RE: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate
> on
> >> Apache Projects?)
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes its positive and I've supported it every step, including stating 
> >> whatever
> folks decide is best.  I'm just saying that the kind of reporting you hope 
> for is
> unlikely to materialize.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: Joseph Schaefer<mailto:joe_schae...@yahoo.com.INVALID>
> >> Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 12:03 PM
> >> To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
> >> Cc: Joseph Schaefer<mailto:joe_schae...@yahoo.com.INVALID>
> >> Subject: Re: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate
> on
> >> Apache Projects?)
> &g

RE: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?)

[Ross Gardler]

Yes. Thanks to everyone working this out.



Sent from my Windows 10 phone



From: Mark Thomas<mailto:ma...@apache.org>
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2016 1:53 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
Subject: Re: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache 
Projects?)



On 29/05/2016 23:07, Ross Gardler wrote:
> For the record I do have training in counselling. Its fairly lightweight and 
> basically boils down to knowing how to respond and when to escalate to a 
> specialist.

Ross,

There looks to be general agreement that archiving abuse reports is a
bad idea. On the grounds that handling these is a president@ function,
are you happy for Marvin's patch to be applied where you are listed with
your @a.o email as the only volunteer (and a note that the list is
expected to be expanded shortly)?

Assuming you are OK with this, we can get this done and then discuss
expanding that list of volunteers and some of the other improvements
that have been suggested.

Mark



>
> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
>
> From: Ross Gardler<mailto:ross.gard...@microsoft.com>
> Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 3:06 PM
> To: Joseph Schaefer<mailto:joe_schae...@yahoo.com.INVALID>; 
> dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
> Cc: Joseph Schaefer<mailto:joe_schae...@yahoo.com.INVALID>
> Subject: RE: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache 
> Projects?)
>
>
> Yes its positive and I've supported it every step, including stating whatever 
> folks decide is best.  I'm just saying that the kind of reporting you hope 
> for is unlikely to materialize.
>
>
>
> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
>
>
>
> From: Joseph Schaefer<mailto:joe_schae...@yahoo.com.INVALID>
> Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 12:03 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
> Cc: Joseph Schaefer<mailto:joe_schae...@yahoo.com.INVALID>
> Subject: Re: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache 
> Projects?)
>
>
>
> So whittling down the access to this information from 600 odd members to a 
> handful of people isn't a positive step Ross?  We can certainly debate the 
> necessity for an ombudsman alias but that has little to do with the benefits 
> of having a collaborative team of people to deal with this.
>
> Keep in mind Ross that your own expertise in this matter is limited to your 
> own direct experiences- we as an org have absolutely no insight into how well 
> you have done in this capacity.  Again we should look at the facts like 
> retainment and satisfaction of the reporter- what we're doing isn't enough if 
> the person just winds up walking away from the asf post hoc.
>
> The org has not paid for your training in this matter, and your business 
> training from dealing with sexual harassment issues at work does not directly 
> translate because there are no employees here at the asf.  Trust me, I've sat 
> through those same dull meetings myself- it's more about what not to do to 
> avoid a federal case being filed against the company.
>
> I too have some experiences dealing with other students being sexually 
> harassed by their professors, so I'm not particularly ignorant of the 
> surrounding issues as to why complaints are filed to whom and what sorts of 
> remedies are typically desired.  In my capacity as graduate student 
> representative, despite having a very close relationship with the department 
> chair I never came across a reporter willing to authorize me to share their 
> report with the chair.  They always wanted to keep it informal and low key- 
> at best I was asked to confront the professor in question that I was aware of 
> what was going on with an anonymous person.
>
> What I'm suggesting is that these volunteers discuss directly with the 
> reporters the options available, and that includes every level of escalation, 
> even to other ombudsman.  This doesn't seem particularly difficult to grasp, 
> and allows a less experienced volunteer to usher in advice and support from 
> the rest of the team.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On May 29, 2016, at 2:41 PM, Ross Gardler <ross.gard...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>>
>> I don’t think you’ll see that benefit. Privacy and safety from repudiation 
>> is a critical factor. You don't get that with a group sharing experiences 
>> and reports. In some cases I have agreed never to reveal the fact a 
>> complaint was made. That’s why I have only provided estimated counts. I 
>> don’t want to go back and count (in fact I don’t even keep the emails in 
>> some cases).
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm not saying a group is bad, more choice is good. All I'm saying is that 
>> the pri

RE: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?)

[Ross Gardler]

For the record I do have training in counselling. Its fairly lightweight and 
basically boils down to knowing how to respond and when to escalate to a 
specialist.

Sent from my Windows 10 phone

From: Ross Gardler<mailto:ross.gard...@microsoft.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 3:06 PM
To: Joseph Schaefer<mailto:joe_schae...@yahoo.com.INVALID>; 
dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
Cc: Joseph Schaefer<mailto:joe_schae...@yahoo.com.INVALID>
Subject: RE: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache 
Projects?)


Yes its positive and I've supported it every step, including stating whatever 
folks decide is best.  I'm just saying that the kind of reporting you hope for 
is unlikely to materialize.



Sent from my Windows 10 phone



From: Joseph Schaefer<mailto:joe_schae...@yahoo.com.INVALID>
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 12:03 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
Cc: Joseph Schaefer<mailto:joe_schae...@yahoo.com.INVALID>
Subject: Re: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache 
Projects?)



So whittling down the access to this information from 600 odd members to a 
handful of people isn't a positive step Ross?  We can certainly debate the 
necessity for an ombudsman alias but that has little to do with the benefits of 
having a collaborative team of people to deal with this.

Keep in mind Ross that your own expertise in this matter is limited to your own 
direct experiences- we as an org have absolutely no insight into how well you 
have done in this capacity.  Again we should look at the facts like retainment 
and satisfaction of the reporter- what we're doing isn't enough if the person 
just winds up walking away from the asf post hoc.

The org has not paid for your training in this matter, and your business 
training from dealing with sexual harassment issues at work does not directly 
translate because there are no employees here at the asf.  Trust me, I've sat 
through those same dull meetings myself- it's more about what not to do to 
avoid a federal case being filed against the company.

I too have some experiences dealing with other students being sexually harassed 
by their professors, so I'm not particularly ignorant of the surrounding issues 
as to why complaints are filed to whom and what sorts of remedies are typically 
desired.  In my capacity as graduate student representative, despite having a 
very close relationship with the department chair I never came across a 
reporter willing to authorize me to share their report with the chair.  They 
always wanted to keep it informal and low key- at best I was asked to confront 
the professor in question that I was aware of what was going on with an 
anonymous person.

What I'm suggesting is that these volunteers discuss directly with the 
reporters the options available, and that includes every level of escalation, 
even to other ombudsman.  This doesn't seem particularly difficult to grasp, 
and allows a less experienced volunteer to usher in advice and support from the 
rest of the team.

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 29, 2016, at 2:41 PM, Ross Gardler <ross.gard...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> I don’t think you’ll see that benefit. Privacy and safety from repudiation is 
> a critical factor. You don't get that with a group sharing experiences and 
> reports. In some cases I have agreed never to reveal the fact a complaint was 
> made. That’s why I have only provided estimated counts. I don’t want to go 
> back and count (in fact I don’t even keep the emails in some cases).
>
>
>
> I'm not saying a group is bad, more choice is good. All I'm saying is that 
> the primary goal of this focused activity is to deal with the specifics and 
> thus extracting generalities in small numbers and non-specific summaries of 
> unique situations is not so helpful.
>
>
>
> A more important goal, in the foundation rather than individual sense, is to 
> deal with the root cause and make the approach being discussed here 
> unnecessary.
>
>
>
> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
>
>
>
> From: Joseph Schaefer<mailto:joe_schae...@yahoo.com.INVALID>
> Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 10:56 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache 
> Projects?)
>
>
>
> Also the reasoning about avoiding one man shows for software projects applies 
> equally well to our ingress reporting strategy.  Right now the only person 
> who has acquired any substantial real word experience dealing with such 
> reports is Ross, and perhaps a few other individuals who have proxied reports 
> to him on behalf of another.  Ross won't be president forever, and hence 
> won't be the perpetual ultimate point of contact for abuse reports, should we 

RE: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?)

[Ross Gardler]

Yes its positive and I've supported it every step, including stating whatever 
folks decide is best.  I'm just saying that the kind of reporting you hope for 
is unlikely to materialize.



Sent from my Windows 10 phone



From: Joseph Schaefer<mailto:joe_schae...@yahoo.com.INVALID>
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 12:03 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
Cc: Joseph Schaefer<mailto:joe_schae...@yahoo.com.INVALID>
Subject: Re: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache 
Projects?)



So whittling down the access to this information from 600 odd members to a 
handful of people isn't a positive step Ross?  We can certainly debate the 
necessity for an ombudsman alias but that has little to do with the benefits of 
having a collaborative team of people to deal with this.

Keep in mind Ross that your own expertise in this matter is limited to your own 
direct experiences- we as an org have absolutely no insight into how well you 
have done in this capacity.  Again we should look at the facts like retainment 
and satisfaction of the reporter- what we're doing isn't enough if the person 
just winds up walking away from the asf post hoc.

The org has not paid for your training in this matter, and your business 
training from dealing with sexual harassment issues at work does not directly 
translate because there are no employees here at the asf.  Trust me, I've sat 
through those same dull meetings myself- it's more about what not to do to 
avoid a federal case being filed against the company.

I too have some experiences dealing with other students being sexually harassed 
by their professors, so I'm not particularly ignorant of the surrounding issues 
as to why complaints are filed to whom and what sorts of remedies are typically 
desired.  In my capacity as graduate student representative, despite having a 
very close relationship with the department chair I never came across a 
reporter willing to authorize me to share their report with the chair.  They 
always wanted to keep it informal and low key- at best I was asked to confront 
the professor in question that I was aware of what was going on with an 
anonymous person.

What I'm suggesting is that these volunteers discuss directly with the 
reporters the options available, and that includes every level of escalation, 
even to other ombudsman.  This doesn't seem particularly difficult to grasp, 
and allows a less experienced volunteer to usher in advice and support from the 
rest of the team.

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 29, 2016, at 2:41 PM, Ross Gardler <ross.gard...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> I don’t think you’ll see that benefit. Privacy and safety from repudiation is 
> a critical factor. You don't get that with a group sharing experiences and 
> reports. In some cases I have agreed never to reveal the fact a complaint was 
> made. That’s why I have only provided estimated counts. I don’t want to go 
> back and count (in fact I don’t even keep the emails in some cases).
>
>
>
> I'm not saying a group is bad, more choice is good. All I'm saying is that 
> the primary goal of this focused activity is to deal with the specifics and 
> thus extracting generalities in small numbers and non-specific summaries of 
> unique situations is not so helpful.
>
>
>
> A more important goal, in the foundation rather than individual sense, is to 
> deal with the root cause and make the approach being discussed here 
> unnecessary.
>
>
>
> Sent from my Windows 10 phone
>
>
>
> From: Joseph Schaefer<mailto:joe_schae...@yahoo.com.INVALID>
> Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 10:56 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
> Subject: Re: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache 
> Projects?)
>
>
>
> Also the reasoning about avoiding one man shows for software projects applies 
> equally well to our ingress reporting strategy.  Right now the only person 
> who has acquired any substantial real word experience dealing with such 
> reports is Ross, and perhaps a few other individuals who have proxied reports 
> to him on behalf of another.  Ross won't be president forever, and hence 
> won't be the perpetual ultimate point of contact for abuse reports, should we 
> still consider that a necessity.
>
> Hence saddling this responsibility to a small team has all the social 
> advantages that a collaborative group of developers has over a one man 
> effort, from both a survivability standpoint and a performance standpoint.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On May 29, 2016, at 1:17 PM, Joe Schaefer <joe_schae...@yahoo.com.INVALID> 
>> wrote:
>>
>> No the president is definitely not part of the problem Niclas.  We're 
>> discussing the delivery mechanism for the most part, as well 

RE: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?)

[Ross Gardler]

I don’t think you’ll see that benefit. Privacy and safety from repudiation is a 
critical factor. You don't get that with a group sharing experiences and 
reports. In some cases I have agreed never to reveal the fact a complaint was 
made. That’s why I have only provided estimated counts. I don’t want to go back 
and count (in fact I don’t even keep the emails in some cases).



I'm not saying a group is bad, more choice is good. All I'm saying is that the 
primary goal of this focused activity is to deal with the specifics and thus 
extracting generalities in small numbers and non-specific summaries of unique 
situations is not so helpful.



A more important goal, in the foundation rather than individual sense, is to 
deal with the root cause and make the approach being discussed here unnecessary.



Sent from my Windows 10 phone



From: Joseph Schaefer
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 10:56 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache 
Projects?)



Also the reasoning about avoiding one man shows for software projects applies 
equally well to our ingress reporting strategy.  Right now the only person who 
has acquired any substantial real word experience dealing with such reports is 
Ross, and perhaps a few other individuals who have proxied reports to him on 
behalf of another.  Ross won't be president forever, and hence won't be the 
perpetual ultimate point of contact for abuse reports, should we still consider 
that a necessity.

Hence saddling this responsibility to a small team has all the social 
advantages that a collaborative group of developers has over a one man effort, 
from both a survivability standpoint and a performance standpoint.

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 29, 2016, at 1:17 PM, Joe Schaefer  
> wrote:
>
> No the president is definitely not part of the problem Niclas.  We're 
> discussing the delivery mechanism for the most part, as well as reasoning 
> about why some people insist on having an officer listed as the "ultimate" 
> reporting mechanism.
>
>
>
> My own experience dealing with sexual harassment reports when I was in 
> graduate school is that the reporters felt more comfortable reporting to 
> people like me who had relatively little formality in our power or position, 
> because what they were looking for was not a formal reprimand, but simply to 
> have the misbehavior stopped, without risk of retribution towards the 
> reporter.  The higher you go up the formal ladder, the less likely you will 
> be successful from the reporter's standpoint in achieving a positive outcome 
> "from their perspective".   Again it's about what's in the reporter's best 
> interests: sometimes all they want is a shoulder to cry on, and some empathy 
> for their plight.  If we can positively change the situation for the better 
> that's great, but it certainly doesn't require a formal title at Apache to 
> achieve that goal, most of the time.  But when it does, that can always 
> inform the discussion with the ombudsperson instead of being the starting 
> point for a report.
>
>
>
> On Friday, May 27, 2016 6:17 AM, Niclas Hedhman  wrote:
>
>
> Is a president-private@ mail forward out of the question? If the president
> is part of the problem, then inform to send to board-private@ instead?
>
> Niclas
>
> On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:25 AM, Roman Shaposhnik 
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 5:20 PM, Joe Schaefer
>>  wrote:
>>> Roman,
>>> I've been beating the archiving problem with president@ like a dead
>> horse for the past week- what
>>> on earth have you been reading to avoid that reality?
>>
>> Archiving per se is not a problem. If the archive is only available to
>> the board I'm border line ok with that.
>> What I didn't know (and it didn't come up in your emails) is that
>> there could be other folks having access
>> to the content of president@ who may or may not be on the board.
>> That's a big, huge problem.
>>
>>> Furthermore, I doubt president@ has an associated qmail owner file,
>> which means any addresses listed in that alias that go to domains whose
>> mail servers do strict SPF checks will BOUNCE email from major email
>> providers who publish such rules, and those bounce mails may wind up being
>> DROPPED by Apache's qmail server since it's attempt to deliver the bounce
>> mail back to the sender may also be REJECTED by the original sending domain.
>>
>> That is also a good point.
>>
>>> All of this leads to problems that, while some are fixable, others are
>> simply not.
>>> We need a better strategy, and it should be collaborative rather than
>> dictatorial.
>>
>> Not sure what you mean, but as I said ideally I'd like it to be an
>> alias for an officer
>> appointed by the board. That's my MVP. What Shane suggested builds up on
>> that

RE: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?)

[Ross Gardler]

I think Niclas meant “if the President were part of the complaint”, rather than 
them being part of the problem being solved. An unfortunate misunderstanding ??



I do think your points are valid. My experience supports them.



Sent from my Windows 10 phone



From: Joe Schaefer
Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2016 10:17 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: ombudsman@ (was Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache 
Projects?)



No the president is definitely not part of the problem Niclas.  We're 
discussing the delivery mechanism for the most part, as well as reasoning about 
why some people insist on having an officer listed as the "ultimate" reporting 
mechanism.



My own experience dealing with sexual harassment reports when I was in graduate 
school is that the reporters felt more comfortable reporting to people like me 
who had relatively little formality in our power or position, because what they 
were looking for was not a formal reprimand, but simply to have the misbehavior 
stopped, without risk of retribution towards the reporter.  The higher you go 
up the formal ladder, the less likely you will be successful from the 
reporter's standpoint in achieving a positive outcome "from their perspective". 
  Again it's about what's in the reporter's best interests: sometimes all they 
want is a shoulder to cry on, and some empathy for their plight.  If we can 
positively change the situation for the better that's great, but it certainly 
doesn't require a formal title at Apache to achieve that goal, most of the 
time.  But when it does, that can always inform the discussion with the 
ombudsperson instead of being the starting point for a report.



On Friday, May 27, 2016 6:17 AM, Niclas Hedhman  wrote:


Is a president-private@ mail forward out of the question? If the president
is part of the problem, then inform to send to board-private@ instead?

Niclas

On Fri, May 27, 2016 at 8:25 AM, Roman Shaposhnik 
wrote:

> On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 5:20 PM, Joe Schaefer
>  wrote:
> > Roman,
> > I've been beating the archiving problem with president@ like a dead
> horse for the past week- what
> > on earth have you been reading to avoid that reality?
>
> Archiving per se is not a problem. If the archive is only available to
> the board I'm border line ok with that.
> What I didn't know (and it didn't come up in your emails) is that
> there could be other folks having access
> to the content of president@ who may or may not be on the board.
> That's a big, huge problem.
>
> > Furthermore, I doubt president@ has an associated qmail owner file,
> which means any addresses listed in that alias that go to domains whose
> mail servers do strict SPF checks will BOUNCE email from major email
> providers who publish such rules, and those bounce mails may wind up being
> DROPPED by Apache's qmail server since it's attempt to deliver the bounce
> mail back to the sender may also be REJECTED by the original sending domain.
>
> That is also a good point.
>
> > All of this leads to problems that, while some are fixable, others are
> simply not.
> > We need a better strategy, and it should be collaborative rather than
> dictatorial.
>
> Not sure what you mean, but as I said ideally I'd like it to be an
> alias for an officer
> appointed by the board. That's my MVP. What Shane suggested builds up on
> that
> and may provide an even better solution.
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.

>



--
Niclas Hedhman, Software Developer
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fzest.apache.org=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c17934174967c41aa92c808d387e523a7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=%2f%2bfPVG45kF7FMD2QtUJUtiCkTc0Un2kW15oYv6jSEAY%3d
 - New Energy for Java

RE: Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?

[Ross Gardler]

Here's a really good suggestion from one of our other lists...

"I wish we could hear from all the women who haven't come to Apache"

I'm not crediting because it came from an internal list, but I am repeating it 
as I agree with this excellent suggestion. If there are people in this group 
here please feel free to reach out onlist or, if you feel you want to say 
things better said privately, try Sharan who started the thread (or anyone else 
you feel comfortable mailing with your thoughts).

Ross

> -Original Message-
> From: Ross Gardler
> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2016 8:39 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: RE: Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?
> 
> We do not have current strategies. We've tried many things in the past but
> they've never really succeeded. I'll not speculate on why, it's a complex 
> issue.
> 
> What I will say (with my Presidents hat firmly on), is that if folks come up
> with a strategy that is in line with our charitable mission then please don't
> hesitate to ask for any support you need.
> 
> Ross
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Sharan Foga [mailto:sharan.f...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2016 8:18 AM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > Subject: Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?
> >
> > Hi All
> >
> > I'm interested in finding out how we could encourage more women to
> > participate on Apache projects. It's a discussion topic that came up
> > last week while I was at Apachecon. My understanding is that we don't
> > have any current strategies in place so I think it could be good to
> > look at gathering some ideas about how to tackle the problem and also
> > hear about any lessons learned from any previous or similar strategies.
> >
> > What do people think?
> >
> > Thanks
> > Sharan
> >

RE: Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?

[Ross Gardler]

Apache is about producing OSS. So as described here this is not a good fit for 
our charitable mission. But there are ways our communities might help.



For example,  take a look at Fineract (incubating) (added here). This is a 
project originally created by the Mifos Foundation. Mifos continues to focus on 
helping organizations setup financial vehicles which in turn help in the kind 
of circumstances you describe.



Within this community you will find plenty of people who have experience of 
these kinds of issues and solutions that do/do not work.



Ross



Sent from my Windows 10 phone



From: Frans Badenhorst
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2016 9:59 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?



r
Hi

In South Africa youth unemployment is as high as 50%.  Many have tried to
even apply for a job, because the education is so poor that they are
effectively unemployable.

The only option women have who want to make a living for them selves is to
start their own business.  Thousands do.  They run in to all kinds of
problems which is entirely predictable.

My idea was to start a Apache program that will teach users to use the
system to run their small business.  Talented individuals will be trained
further to do various tasks that match their interests and skills.  Some
will concentrate on procurement, marketing, HR and so on and a few will
look at installation, customization and even development of the system.

I needed to establish a broadband connection ($200 and a mi=onthly fee of
less than $20 to keep it going), plus some PC's workstation and furniture
(desk and chair) totalling ($15 000) and could not get any funding.
Investors here are not interested in start-up businesses,

I think there is huge potential for women to start all kinds of businesses
in services (catering, clothes making, hair and nail care,etc,) but also in
agriculture (organic fruit, wine and vegetables) and manufacturing (e.g.
arts and crafts) and various health related services and education.

To succeed in business you need to have a good  (accounting, procurement,
HR and marketing) systems. A till and catalogue, web site  and so on can
all be provided by OfBiz at a very affordable rate. We need help to get
this off the ground.

If you have any ideas I will really appreciate it.


Regards


Frans Badenhost




Frans Badenhorst

On 19 May 2016 at 17:17, Sharan Foga  wrote:

> Hi All
>
> I'm interested in finding out how we could encourage more women to
> participate on Apache projects. It's a discussion topic that came up last
> week while I was at Apachecon. My understanding is that we don't have any
> current strategies in place so I think it could be good to look at
> gathering some ideas about how to tackle the problem and also hear about
> any lessons learned from any previous or similar strategies.
>
> What do people think?
>
> Thanks
> Sharan
>
>
>

RE: Guidance for Contribution in Apache foundation

[Ross Gardler]

Start on our newcomers page. It should answer most of your general questions. 
See http://community.apache.org/newcomers/

If you have specific questions about the foundation this is the place to ask. 
If you find a project your are interested in after reading the above pages then 
you can ask your questions within that community (guidance in the above pages)

> -Original Message-
> From: Ravi Kant Sharma [mailto:ravi.mca...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2016 8:04 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Guidance for Contribution in Apache foundation
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Please guide me to contribute for Apache foundation.
> 
> --
> *Thanks & Warm Regards,*
> Ravi Kant Sharma
> Mob: 9958090099

RE: Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?

[Ross Gardler]

A better question is do you have reason to believe the board will object and if 
they do will you as a member be satisfied?

Speaking as a member I would support such an activity. Unfortunately I don't 
have the time to deliver on it, but I'd certainly spend time learning from it.

Ross

> -Original Message-
> From: Pierre Smits [mailto:pierre.sm...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, May 20, 2016 12:02 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?
> 
> Will the board consider it, is an appropriate question here?
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Pierre Smits
> 
> ORRTIZ.COM
> <https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.o
> rrtiz.com=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7ccd4754e6d3
> 6e4f4f386208d380e1435b%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1
> ata=O12O2Zvtkep48aG5po%2fVnqww0QSkPfcGvi2Csvi3%2bqI%3d>
> OFBiz based solutions & services
> 
> OFBiz Extensions Marketplace
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2foem.ofbi
> zci.net%2foci-
> 2%2f=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7ccd4754e6d36e4f
> 4f386208d380e1435b%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=
> XYd1BwmJPEDKWucapSE6OnSLigX0z0ugqAe7ZXK9qac%3d
> 
> On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 7:25 PM, Ross Gardler
> <ross.gard...@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > My point is that the Members *are* the foundation. The board are 9 the
> > Members are 550+
> >
> > Ross
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: gch...@gmail.com [mailto:gch...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Greg
> > > Chase
> > > Sent: Friday, May 20, 2016 10:20 AM
> > > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > > Subject: Re: Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?
> > >
> > > On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Ross Gardler
> > > <ross.gard...@microsoft.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > The board can consider it or the members can do it.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Outreach is only meaningful at the individual and project level, yes.
> > >
> > > Measurement, in aggregate, is something the Foundation could do if
> > > it
> > wants
> > > to make this a central issue.
> > >
> > > I don't think I'd even want to drill down the census by project
> > > level,
> > however.
> > > That would not be beneficial.  Only providing aggregate numbers to
> > > remind people of the importance and benefit of diversity, and
> > > stimulate more of
> > the
> > > meaningful individual and project outreach.
> >

RE: Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?

[Ross Gardler]

My point is that the Members *are* the foundation. The board are 9 the Members 
are 550+

Ross

> -Original Message-
> From: gch...@gmail.com [mailto:gch...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Greg
> Chase
> Sent: Friday, May 20, 2016 10:20 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?
> 
> On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Ross Gardler
> <ross.gard...@microsoft.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > The board can consider it or the members can do it.
> >
> 
> Outreach is only meaningful at the individual and project level, yes.
> 
> Measurement, in aggregate, is something the Foundation could do if it wants
> to make this a central issue.
> 
> I don't think I'd even want to drill down the census by project level, 
> however.
> That would not be beneficial.  Only providing aggregate numbers to remind
> people of the importance and benefit of diversity, and stimulate more of the
> meaningful individual and project outreach.

RE: Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?

[Ross Gardler]

The board can consider it or the members can do it.

> -Original Message-
> From: gch...@gmail.com [mailto:gch...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Greg
> Chase
> Sent: Friday, May 20, 2016 8:28 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?
> 
> I will admit to not having thought much about this topic until reading this
> email thread.
> 
> If we could consider ApacheCon Vancouver to be a sample, then it would
> seem that "yes" there is a much higher ratio of men to women participating
> in our events at least.
> 
> If the organization and the board want to start considering this issue, then
> measurements and baselines are a first step.
> 
> Many companies, such as Pivotal, the one I work for, are trying to improve
> their diversity in the public way.  Here's an example of our diversity numbers
> that we just released:
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fblog.piv
> otal.io%2fpivotal%2fnews%2fpivotal-releases-diversity-data-for-the-first-
> time=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c19bf7a5936b044
> c1f06e08d380c35ec4%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=7
> b8YZIlosrlvdQvk9l%2b0xD1JHDAaKF%2fTAaZNPm3Wc10%3d
> 
> The board could consider taking a census of participants in Apache: Board &
> Officers, members, committers, contributors, and then releasing these
> aggregate numbers on an annual basis.
> 
> This itself would be quite notable in the open source software world.
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, May 20, 2016 at 8:18 AM, Alex Harui  wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> > On 5/20/16, 5:26 AM, "Sharan Foga"  wrote:
> > >>>Hi All
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm interested in finding out how we could encourage more women to
> > >>>participate on Apache projects. It's a discussion topic that came
> > >>>up last  week while I was at Apachecon. My understanding is that we
> > >>>don't have any  current strategies in place so I think it could be
> > >>>good to look at  gathering some ideas about how to tackle the
> > >>>problem and also hear about  any lessons learned from any previous
> > >>>or similar strategies.
> >
> > FWIW, I know they are gearing up to host a "Girls Who Code" series at
> > the place I work this summer.  Since I am not female, I do not have an
> > easy way to influence whether Open Source or Apache is discussed
> > during that series.  Last year I tried to recruit two of the young
> > ladies who happened to use the same public transportation I do, but
> > was unsuccessful.  Maybe a better organized promotion from some female
> > volunteers at Apache could have better results.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > -Alex
> >
> >

RE: Attendee Numbers for Big Data & Apachecon Presentation Sessions

[Ross Gardler]

Rich Bowen is the holder of all things ApacheCon. He'll make sure it goes to 
the right place.

Ross

> -Original Message-
> From: Sharan Foga [mailto:sharan.f...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, May 20, 2016 8:48 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Attendee Numbers for Big Data & Apachecon Presentation Sessions
> 
> Hi All
> 
> We captured the attendee numbers for 'most' of the various Big Data and
> Apachecon presentation sessions last week.
> 
> Is there someone who needs or wants this information? Or is there
> somewhere it needs to be archived as part of the Apachecon stats etc?
> 
> Thanks
> Sharan

RE: Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?

[Ross Gardler]

We do not have current strategies. We've tried many things in the past but 
they've never really succeeded. I'll not speculate on why, it's a complex issue.

What I will say (with my Presidents hat firmly on), is that if folks come up 
with a strategy that is in line with our charitable mission then please don't 
hesitate to ask for any support you need.

Ross

> -Original Message-
> From: Sharan Foga [mailto:sharan.f...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2016 8:18 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Encouraging More Women to Participate on Apache Projects?
> 
> Hi All
> 
> I'm interested in finding out how we could encourage more women to
> participate on Apache projects. It's a discussion topic that came up last week
> while I was at Apachecon. My understanding is that we don't have any current
> strategies in place so I think it could be good to look at gathering some 
> ideas
> about how to tackle the problem and also hear about any lessons learned from
> any previous or similar strategies.
> 
> What do people think?
> 
> Thanks
> Sharan
> 

RE: Help with task: Help ensure our events calendar is up to date and complete

[Ross Gardler]

Hi Ricardo,

Please take a look at the document at 
http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/comdev/tools/help-wanted.md, this will show you 
how to get started. We look forward to your contributions.

Ross

> -Original Message-
> From: Ricardo [mailto:r.jime...@live.com]
> Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2016 8:38 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Help with task: Help ensure our events calendar is up to date and
> complete
> 
> I would like to help out with the task listed at
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fhelpwant
> ed.apache.org%2ftask.html%3f9af91c8b=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40
> microsoft.com%7c51de7d31e1444db8234008d37d648b6d%7c72f988bf86f14
> 1af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=QbEVbYsqKiYaISXXYLQ7Ou%2bIwT6%2bS
> LwKJ%2bK1aol9zo4%3d
> 
> Hi,
> 
> My name is Ricardo. I'm interested in helping out anyway I can. Can I get more
> information about the calendar tasks and management.

RE: cross-project communication space?

[Ross Gardler]

I should add that I wasn't applying that quote to anyone's opinion, and 
certainly not calling anyone a heathen ;-) I just thought it was humorous and I 
love Terry Pratchett who riffed on this quote for many years ("turtles all the 
way down").

> -Original Message-
> From: Ross Gardler [mailto:ross.gard...@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2016 10:56 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: RE: cross-project communication space?
> 
> -1 on a PMC to coordinate the coordination of a cross-project coordination :-)
> 
> I just put the following quote in a deck I'll be using lately, seems 
> applicable...
> 
> My opponent’s reasoning reminds me of the heathen, who, being asked on
> what the world stood, replied, “on a tortoise.” But on what does the tortoise
> stand? “On another tortoise.”
> Joseph Barker (1854)
> 
> It's a mailing list, it's not that important in and of itself. If you want a 
> home for
> the kick-off (e.g. this conversation) and the eventual retirement (if that 
> ever
> comes) then ComDev is the place. It might make sense to formally assign the
> ownership of the list to ComDev so that should it ever reach retirement that
> PMC is empowered to request infra remove it. But otherwise it’s just a list.
> 
> Ross
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Sergio Fernández [mailto:wik...@apache.org]
> > Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2016 10:41 AM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: cross-project communication space?
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Greg Chase <g...@gregchase.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Interesting topic.  I agree "community" is where the "meta-discussion"
> > > of this happens. However, the actual implementation of cross
> > > community collaboration will happen in the relevant and engaged
> > > communities themselves.
> > >
> >
> > exactly
> >
> >
> > > Its almost like the "cross topic" would have its own mini PMC with
> > > representatives from the engaged communities.
> >
> >
> > well, I wouldn't want to go that far for now... but if this works for
> > more case we may want to take a look what other foundations do, like
> > the working groups in Eclipse:
> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.ec
> > lip
> >
> se.org%2forg%2fworkinggroups%2f=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40micro
> >
> soft.com%7c6232faf60e814115252108d37a8ca212%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab
> >
> 2d7cd011db47%7c1=la%2bUOrpVSDTgImKGgsiooqD7XjU4LnHW01iv2o
> > HJTNI%3d
> >
> >
> > > The list would be archived if / when at any time the organizers
> > > dwindled to 0.
> > >
> >
> > +++1
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sergio Fernández
> > Partner Technology Manager
> > Redlink GmbH
> > m: +43 6602747925
> > e: sergio.fernan...@redlink.co
> > w:
> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fredlin
> > k.co
> >
> =01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c6232faf60e814115252
> >
> 108d37a8ca212%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=aYW9F
> > c4X3NDHOekplDb7sZ2zCpS9JaXcR0faAXFQN6c%3d

RE: cross-project communication space?

[Ross Gardler]

-1 on a PMC to coordinate the coordination of a cross-project coordination :-)

I just put the following quote in a deck I'll be using lately, seems 
applicable...

My opponent’s reasoning reminds me of the heathen, who, being asked on what the 
world stood, replied, “on a tortoise.” But on what does the tortoise stand? “On 
another tortoise.” 
Joseph Barker (1854)

It's a mailing list, it's not that important in and of itself. If you want a 
home for the kick-off (e.g. this conversation) and the eventual retirement (if 
that ever comes) then ComDev is the place. It might make sense to formally 
assign the ownership of the list to ComDev so that should it ever reach 
retirement that PMC is empowered to request infra remove it. But otherwise it’s 
just a list.

Ross

> -Original Message-
> From: Sergio Fernández [mailto:wik...@apache.org]
> Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2016 10:41 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: cross-project communication space?
> 
> Hi,
> 
> On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Greg Chase 
> wrote:
> >
> > Interesting topic.  I agree "community" is where the "meta-discussion"
> > of this happens. However, the actual implementation of cross community
> > collaboration will happen in the relevant and engaged communities
> > themselves.
> >
> 
> exactly
> 
> 
> > Its almost like the "cross topic" would have its own mini PMC with
> > representatives from the engaged communities.
> 
> 
> well, I wouldn't want to go that far for now... but if this works for more 
> case
> we may want to take a look what other foundations do, like the working
> groups in Eclipse:
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.eclip
> se.org%2forg%2fworkinggroups%2f=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40micro
> soft.com%7c6232faf60e814115252108d37a8ca212%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab
> 2d7cd011db47%7c1=la%2bUOrpVSDTgImKGgsiooqD7XjU4LnHW01iv2o
> HJTNI%3d
> 
> 
> > The list would be archived if / when at any time the organizers
> > dwindled to 0.
> >
> 
> +++1
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Sergio Fernández
> Partner Technology Manager
> Redlink GmbH
> m: +43 6602747925
> e: sergio.fernan...@redlink.co
> w:
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fredlink.co
> =01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c6232faf60e814115252
> 108d37a8ca212%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=aYW9F
> c4X3NDHOekplDb7sZ2zCpS9JaXcR0faAXFQN6c%3d

RE: cross-project communication space?

[Ross Gardler]

Request a SL from infra.



Sent from my Windows 10 phone



From: Sergio Fernández
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2016 8:02 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: cross-project communication space?



Hi,

as part of the discussions we have had these days in Vancouver, some of the
projects involved in the Geospatial track of the conference (mainly SIS and
Marmotta) we have been discussing that we'd like to have a common space
where discussing about common things. So far I do no see such common space
for other topics.

A geospatial@a.o mailing list could serve that purpose, as well as an entry
point for other communities (OGC, Eclipse LocationTech, etc).

So, after discussing it with some folks here, I feel like bringing it up
here is a good way to figure out how we can materialize such idea.

Thanks in advance for all your feedback.

--
Sergio Fernández
Partner Technology Manager
Redlink GmbH
m: +43 6602747925
e: sergio.fernan...@redlink.co
w: 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fredlink.co=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c0f2c8b4eb4004a3b24f208d37a766d93%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=0anrccFom5sevuwJWyfiAgZOiPxVLtdvTA51KuskQjU%3d

RE: Help with task: Help ensure our events calendar is up to date and complete

[Ross Gardler]

Thanks Melissa, Adding April explicitly as her email came from the Help Wanted 
app and I suspect she is not yet subscribed to the mailing list.

April, see Melissa's response below. 

Ross

> -Original Message-
> From: Melissa Warnkin [mailto:missywarn...@yahoo.com.INVALID]
> Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 9:32 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Help with task: Help ensure our events calendar is up to date and
> complete
> 
> Hi April,
> Thank you for your email.  Please see below and let us know if you have any
> questions.
> Helping out here is easy and is a task that can be dipped into periodically.
> 
> Take a look at
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fcomdev1-
> us-
> west.apache.org%2fevents%2f=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.
> com%7cf6f8fd62f8014e01052f08d372a74ad0%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7c
> d011db47%7c1=z1KVkJgxH0emaDK7DKptNpe%2fn80a0LuVPOc%2bzbE
> M0bY%3d, this is an application we use to gather information for
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.apac
> he.org%2fevents%2fmeetups.html=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40micros
> oft.com%7cf6f8fd62f8014e01052f08d372a74ad0%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2
> d7cd011db47%7c1=wsoRqpgsFVbMBt3CSJWne8EqIUUCItSypohXmvwu
> Dto%3d
> 
> It's an automated process that will result in false positives at times. To 
> remove
> the false positives we can do two things:
> 
> 1) Mark a specific event as "not applicable" - which removes this one event
> 2) Mark an organizing group as "not applicable" - which prevents any future
> events organized by the same group appearing
> 
> To help with this process all we need is people to visit the page 
> periodically and
> click the appropriate link on the right hand side.  The more people we have
> doing this the easier it is for all of us.
> 
> Moving forwards we need to improve the code driving this application. If you'd
> like to work with the code see
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fsvn.apach
> e.org%2frepos%2fasf%2fcomdev%2ftools=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40
> microsoft.com%7cf6f8fd62f8014e01052f08d372a74ad0%7c72f988bf86f141af
> 91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=ctsu%2feOn0BFg73DxfBADvnOMVbUSln5hd
> mipsUWG5i4%3d (hopefully what you need to get started is in readme.md)
> 
> ~Melissa
> 
>   From: April Lane 
>  To: dev@community.apache.org
>  Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 11:42 AM
>  Subject: Help with task: Help ensure our events calendar is up to date and
> complete
> 
> I would like to help out with the task listed at
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fhelpwant
> ed.apache.org%2ftask.html%3f9af91c8b%250A%250A=01%7c01%7cRos
> s.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7cf6f8fd62f8014e01052f08d372a74ad0%7c72f9
> 88bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=5sMgI1YEfayVOwnf8IHBVS4Qv
> vxt4k8dSDsvwXBfffw%3d
> 
> 
> 

RE: Help with task: Help ensure our events calendar is up to date and complete

[Ross Gardler]

Thanks Melissa, Adding April explicitly as her email came from the Help Wanted 
app and I suspect she is not yet subscribed to the mailing list.

April, see Melissa's response below. 

Ross

> -Original Message-
> From: Melissa Warnkin [mailto:missywarn...@yahoo.com.INVALID]
> Sent: Monday, May 2, 2016 9:32 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Help with task: Help ensure our events calendar is up to date and
> complete
> 
> Hi April,
> Thank you for your email.  Please see below and let us know if you have any
> questions.
> Helping out here is easy and is a task that can be dipped into periodically.
> 
> Take a look at
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fcomdev1-
> us-
> west.apache.org%2fevents%2f=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.
> com%7cf6f8fd62f8014e01052f08d372a74ad0%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7c
> d011db47%7c1=z1KVkJgxH0emaDK7DKptNpe%2fn80a0LuVPOc%2bzbE
> M0bY%3d, this is an application we use to gather information for
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.apac
> he.org%2fevents%2fmeetups.html=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40micros
> oft.com%7cf6f8fd62f8014e01052f08d372a74ad0%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2
> d7cd011db47%7c1=wsoRqpgsFVbMBt3CSJWne8EqIUUCItSypohXmvwu
> Dto%3d
> 
> It's an automated process that will result in false positives at times. To 
> remove
> the false positives we can do two things:
> 
> 1) Mark a specific event as "not applicable" - which removes this one event
> 2) Mark an organizing group as "not applicable" - which prevents any future
> events organized by the same group appearing
> 
> To help with this process all we need is people to visit the page 
> periodically and
> click the appropriate link on the right hand side.  The more people we have
> doing this the easier it is for all of us.
> 
> Moving forwards we need to improve the code driving this application. If you'd
> like to work with the code see
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fsvn.apach
> e.org%2frepos%2fasf%2fcomdev%2ftools=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40
> microsoft.com%7cf6f8fd62f8014e01052f08d372a74ad0%7c72f988bf86f141af
> 91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=ctsu%2feOn0BFg73DxfBADvnOMVbUSln5hd
> mipsUWG5i4%3d (hopefully what you need to get started is in readme.md)
> 
> ~Melissa
> 
>   From: April Lane 
>  To: dev@community.apache.org
>  Sent: Friday, April 29, 2016 11:42 AM
>  Subject: Help with task: Help ensure our events calendar is up to date and
> complete
> 
> I would like to help out with the task listed at
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fhelpwant
> ed.apache.org%2ftask.html%3f9af91c8b%250A%250A=01%7c01%7cRos
> s.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7cf6f8fd62f8014e01052f08d372a74ad0%7c72f9
> 88bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=5sMgI1YEfayVOwnf8IHBVS4Qv
> vxt4k8dSDsvwXBfffw%3d
> 
> 
> 

RE: Help with task: Make our event calendar less US centric

[Ross Gardler]

Thanks for your interest,

I've created a short doc with guidance on how to help. Rather than put it on 
the web I've put it right next to the code...

http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/comdev/tools/help-wanted.md

-Original Message-
From: Andreas Zechmeister [mailto:djansyas...@icloud.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 4:55 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Help with task: Make our event calendar less US centric

I am
>From Austria / Europa Asota music is only By Boss into Us and he Support me By 
>music , i am My one Company into music grettings Andy 

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

> Am 12.04.2016 um 12:56 schrieb Shashi Shailaj :
> 
> Hello Team,
> I would also be very much interested to help and would be able to 
> provide
> 2-3 hours per week for the task listed at 
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fhelpwanted.apache.org%2ftask.html%3f3c264f0f=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c521dc392339c43a40c6808d362c94a46%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=A12Y7kfhYAtY9jum%2fm7iaksDXzl4dhLLeIqT9HQq%2bxc%3d
>  .
> 
> Please let me know the procedure.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Shashi
> 
> On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 2:10 AM, evil 
> 
> wrote:
> 
>> I would like to help out with the task listed at https:/ 
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=helpwanted.apache.
>> org%2ftask.html%3f3c264f0f=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.co
>> m%7c521dc392339c43a40c6808d362c94a46%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db
>> 47%7c1=7tywyiABEtiKQI%2fp8j4AtbUxPzOEeY5OhKc79%2fIDMi4%3d
>> 
>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10
>> 
>> 

RE: Help with task: Make our event calendar less US centric

[Ross Gardler]

Thanks for your interest Shashi,

I've created a short doc with guidance on how to help. Rather than put it on 
the web I've put it right next to the code...

http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/comdev/tools/help-wanted.md

-Original Message-
From: Shashi Shailaj [mailto:shashishai...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 13, 2016 1:31 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Help with task: Make our event calendar less US centric

Hello Ross/Nick,

I would also be very much interested to help and would be able to provide
2-3 hours per week for the task as listed at 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fhelpwanted.apache.org%2ftask.html%3f3c264f0f=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c5cd96f9a0cd34fd0a24408d36375e9c1%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=kV4nfsMr%2fsYcpFvT9hTt%2bZEGVj8GEmpioDeHadaOCyc%3d
 .

Please let me know the procedure.

Thanks.
Shashi


On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 10:16 PM, Ross Gardler <ross.gard...@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> Good point, thanks Nick.
>
> Ross
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Nick Burch [mailto:n...@apache.org]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 9:44 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Help with task: Make our event calendar less US centric
>
> On Tue, 12 Apr 2016, Rich Bowen wrote:
> > I wonder if perhaps, Ross, you would put your longer description on 
> > the web somewhere, and we can link to it from either the ticket, or 
> > send it to people when they ask to help in this one.
>
> Also, with my moderator hat one, please note that many of the people 
> sending these aren't subscribed to the list. So, if you only reply to 
> the list, they won't see what they need to do...
>
> Nick
>

RE: Help with task: Make our event calendar less US centric

[Ross Gardler]

I've created a short doc with guidance on how to help. Rather than put it on 
the web I've put it right next to the code...

http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/comdev/tools/help-wanted.md

-Original Message-
From: Arakanshu K [mailto:arakansh...@euclidinnovations.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 6:21 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Help with task: Make our event calendar less US centric

I would like to help out with the task listed at 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fhelpwanted.apache.org%2ftask.html%3f3c264f0f=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7cc1443096a5f3404f532508d362e43f1a%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=jm9PDFByVW5fqJwz9mQ%2f2KndrvxCiintTpMQe8qkYO0%3d

RE: Help with task: Make our event calendar less US centric

[Ross Gardler]

Yes, seems the help wanted site is beginning to succeed.

-Original Message-
From: Rich Bowen [mailto:rbo...@rcbowen.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 9:32 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Help with task: Make our event calendar less US centric

I wonder if perhaps, Ross, you would put your longer description on the web 
somewhere, and we can link to it from either the ticket, or send it to people 
when they ask to help in this one.

On 04/12/2016 12:27 PM, muktesh mishra wrote:
> I would also like to contribute in this.
> 
> Please pass on further information/next steps on this.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Apr 12, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Arakanshu K  
>> wrote:
>>
>> I would like to help out with the task listed at 
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fhelp
>> wanted.apache.org%2ftask.html%3f3c264f0f=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%
>> 40microsoft.com%7c8015ed493a254425e7bc08d362f0072e%7c72f988bf86f141af
>> 91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=1qg60E%2fH2CeCf%2fxnn78tqmIeqyBO%2fX4OmyUo
>> nr4JXFE%3d


--
Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fapachecon.com%2f=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c8015ed493a254425e7bc08d362f0072e%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=EdnXcVzY1flZ0AxyCZUq8M%2bw%2fvPtT65HTAdlWxnLH6w%3d
 - @apachecon

RE: Help with task: Help ensure our events calendar is up to date and complete

[Ross Gardler]

Hi Bob,

Helping out here is easy and is a task that can be dipped into periodically.

Take a look at http://comdev1-us-west.apache.org/events/, this is an 
application we use to gather information for 
http://www.apache.org/events/meetups.html

It's an automated process that will result in false positives at times. To 
remove the false positives we can do two things:

1) Mark a specific event as "not applicable" - which removes this one event
2) Mark an organizing group as "not applicable" - which prevents any future 
events organized by the same group appearing

To help with this process all we need is people to visit the page periodically 
and click the appropriate link on the right hand side.  The more people we have 
doing this the easier it is for all of us.

Moving forwards we need to improve the code driving this application. If you'd 
like to work with the code see http://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/comdev/tools 
(hopefully what you need to get started is in readme.md)

-Original Message-
From: Bob Clingan [mailto:b...@bobclingan.com] 
Sent: Friday, April 8, 2016 11:12 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Help with task: Help ensure our events calendar is up to date and 
complete

I would like to help out with the task listed at 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fhelpwanted.apache.org%2ftask.html%3f9af91c8b=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c7ca96f4556ba4562d9b908d35fdd2fbd%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=xVfDvaQ0z6stsAVQLq7RaJaYuLibKjaFLLCbLqiI9Fc%3d


-- 

*Bob Clingan*
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fabout.me%2fbob_clingan=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c7ca96f4556ba4562d9b908d35fdd2fbd%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=mHnu0%2fHIgOq7x3kcKw7iFjpLv%2fVySkLnwlCQmV3SGug%3d

H: 443-451-4390
C: 410-746-7382

RE: Help with task: Make our event calendar less US centric

[Ross Gardler]

Excellent. First thing you should do is give the code a try. See 
https://svn.apache.org/repos/asf/comdev/tools/events_list/

It's a quickly hacked together solution but it works. Here's what I would 
suggest (feel free to deviate and create your own path, also note that these 
need not be sequential, though I'd imagine 1. Is necessary to learn how it 
works):

1.1. checkout the code and make it run locally
1.2. modify the code to search in your chosen geographic region
1.3. perform a few test search and filter exercises and submit the results to us

At this point we could deploy a region specific instance of the application, 
but that's not ideal. So more work to do...

2.1 modify code to make search area configurable (requires adding an admin 
interface for search)
2.2 add your region to the database
2.3 add ability for users to search geographically (there is someone working on 
this already)

Now we can deploy a single instance that supports multiple regions, much 
better. But still more...

3.1 Internationalize the application and translate all strings

However, please note, that curation of the listed events needs to be an ongoing 
effort. Everyone is a volunteer here, so you are not making a long term 
commitment, but please be aware that the above work is of no use if nobody does 
the ongoing work of reviewing the events. We have someone doing that for 
anything that it English language but if they are in other languages she will 
be unable to help. This suggests another feature...

4.1 Add automatic translations of events to the admin pages to allow English 
speaking users to curate non-English listings.

Ross


-Original Message-
From: Robert Garcia [mailto:rmgarc...@pipeline.sbcc.edu] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 6, 2016 10:24 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Help with task: Make our event calendar less US centric

Sounds great. I would also like to get involved.
On Apr 6, 2016 10:20 AM, "Michelle Escobar" 
wrote:

> I would like to help out with the task listed at 
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fhelpw
> anted.apache.org%2ftask.html%3f364cfb49=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40
> microsoft.com%7cd5d3ce946564484c0d2008d35e403853%7c72f988bf86f141af91a
> b2d7cd011db47%7c1=Do6OyVl84DYpXFeWnU5XFJRJahVjT9PtWaKGzy1Ls4s%3d
>

RE: Commons Convert

[Ross Gardler]

I'm not familiar with this specific library but in all likelihood it has halted 
because it worked well enough for those originally working on it. If you have 
your own needs and want to add more functionality just go ahead and do it. Then 
submit a patch to the project for inclusion 
(http://commons.apache.org/patches.html). If you get a few patches included you 
will likely be invited to become a committer, at which point you will have 
write access - how long this takes depends on the quality of your patches and 
the way you interact with the rest of the community.

It would also be a good idea to engage on the mailing list, just as you have 
here, expressing your intentions (http://commons.apache.org/mail-lists.html) - 
this gives you some visibility in the community and helps to ensure someone 
addresses your patches.

Ross

-Original Message-
From: Arun Iyer [mailto:arun92phoe...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 2, 2016 7:57 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Commons Convert

Hey,

I am a Java developer and I was looking at the availability of a type 
conversion library, which I have a use for in of my projects. I came across the 
Commons Convert page and it seemed like the library might suit my requirements 
based on the sample provided. But, I also discovered later that the project is 
still in Sandbox and it was left midway through its completion.

I searched about the project online and could not find any information as to 
why it had been halted. I also browsed through the source code and saw how much 
of the project had been built.

If there are no current plans for the project to be continued, then I would 
like to know if I can take some initiative on my part to help it start again.

I apologise if this is not the correct mail address to send this message to. 

Thanks,
Arun Iyer

How to edit a task on the Help Wanted application

[Ross Gardler]

First off, the Help Wanted app is looking great - thank you.

I just entered a task but realize I didn't enter a language for it and thus it 
is not as discoverable as it could be. How do I edit it?

This brings me to some feature requests (do we have a Jira? Where is the code?)


1)  Make it obvious how to edit a task

2)  Don't put my email on the page for more details. I don't want more mail 
directly to me (and my filters are likely to mean I miss any contact from a 
newcomer - not at all the welcome we want to provide). The form does tell them 
to contact dev.at.communtiy.apache.org, which is great, but I bet a large 
number will reach out to the individual poster.

3)  I missed that the programming language selection would also offer 
natural language if I scrolled down enough. Perhaps add a note in the form.

4)  If no natural language is provided for a Community Outreach task (and 
presumably for a programming task) it does not appear in a search. I'd suggest 
no language selection should be the same as "all languages"

Once again - thanks :)

RE: ASF GSoC mentor eligibility

[Ross Gardler]

Mentoring an ASF project, formally, requires you to have an ASF commit bit on 
the project you are mentoring for. However, the act of mentoring is a community 
effort. Engage with your project community offering your assistance and asking 
for someone to work with you as the named mentor. If you can find such a person 
then you are good to go.

Ross

-Original Message-
From: Melissa Warnkin [mailto:missywarn...@yahoo.com.INVALID] 
Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2016 12:48 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: ASF GSoC mentor eligibility

Hi Paulo,
Thank you for your interest in becoming a GSoC mentor.  Someone will get back 
to you shortly with the answers to your questions.
Have a great day,
~MelissaExecutive AssistantASF

  From: Paulo Motta 
 To: dev@community.apache.org
 Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2016 5:01 PM
 Subject: ASF GSoC mentor eligibility
   
Hello,

I'm a community member and active contributor of an Apache project and I'd like 
to volunteer to be a GSoC mentor this year. However, I'm not currently an ASF 
committer or member.

I'd like to clarify if GSoC mentoring is strictly restricted to ASF committers 
or can non-committers also volunteer to be mentors or co-mentors?

ps: I'm sending to this list as I didn't find a clear answer on 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fcommunity.apache.org%2fguide-to-being-a-mentor.html.=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c02cbb89e2f8f4a3adf0808d333249a9d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=5U6Twfl3%2bCz%2fzqXx0ldsCLx%2fxXT%2fkvjGO7Q%2bvoW0qJo%3d

Thanks,

Paulo


  

RE: Help Wanted! (it's a title, not a request!)

[Ross Gardler]

This is great, but...

The success of something like this is not in the tool, it's in the content.

I worry that by requiring projects to enter the data separately to their chosen 
issue tracker we are reducing the chances of this succeeding (and it deserves 
to succeed as a tool). Furthermore, when it comes around to GSoC projects 
across the foundation already mark tasks as "mentor". 

I hear the concern that some projects use Bugzilla, but the majority use Jira.

Can we do imports from Jira, filtered by the "mentor" label?

Ross

-Original Message-
From: Daniel Gruno [mailto:humbed...@apache.org] 
Sent: Monday, February 8, 2016 3:38 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Help Wanted! (it's a title, not a request!)

On 02/08/2016 12:36 PM, Maxim Solodovnik wrote:
> Hello Daniel,
> 
> Could you please describe a bit how JIRA issues are selected to be 
> displayed?
> this [1] query return no results :((
> 
> [1] 
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fhelpw
> anted.apache.org%2flistitems.lua%3fproject%3dopenmeetings=01%7c01
> %7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c0d06626ee77b454e4b3a08d3307c5fbd%7c7
> 2f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=yQQSTsTOXuZ5oHv4dAyz1yIOmBCY
> R49X0zNf3N2r4pQ%3d
> 

It doesn't quite work that way. The whole issue here is that there is no way to 
uniformly do this via JIRA or BugZilla, as they don't quite have these sort of 
information fields, so this is an 'aside' to it.

You have to add the tasks by clicking on the 'add/edit tasks' link at the top 
of the front page, and then they'll show up. You can of course link to a JIRA 
ticket inside the task.

With regards,
Daniel.

> 
> On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 4:56 PM, Daniel Gruno  wrote:
> 
>> On 02/08/2016 11:53 AM, Francesco Chicchiriccò wrote:
>>> Just to show my appreciation: +1, looks very cool!
>>>
>>> Any idea of when we can start filling it up with real things?
>>> Thanks.
>>
>> I've already started deleting the test entries, so you could start 
>> using it already if you like. I'll remove the warnings from the front 
>> page then
>> :)
>>
>> With regards,
>> Daniel.
>>
>>>
>>> Regards.
>>>
>>> On 07/02/2016 17:01, Daniel Gruno wrote:
 Hi ComDev folks! Ramblings incoming :)

 As an aside to the 'Guiding volunteers' thread, I was talking with 
 Rich
 (Bowen) while he was at DevConf this weekend, and we got to 
 thinking whether it was possible to make a tiny tool that would 
 solve one specific issue we often come across when someone says "I 
 know X, Y and Z
 - What can I do to help Apache?".

 Traditionally, we've said "subscribe to our mailing list (which one?!)"
 or "Go look at JIRA/BugZilla", which in itself is fine, but 
 off-putting to many people as we don't actively use neither MLs or 
 bug trackers to advertise what we want done, and what tech/person 
 skills would be helpful where (we're terrible!). Furthermore, it is 
 our opinion/assessment that bug trackers are not that great from a 
 "skills
 -> tasks" perspective. While great for bugs and larger tasks for an
 existing audience, they don't provide the right overview or search 
 features that one could want, and keeping some sort of uniform 
 setup for these tasks across the ASF is going to be a LOT of work.

 ...If only we had somewhere someone could just go and say "I'm 
 great at marketing and documentation, what tasks are there that I 
 can do?" and then get 10 different requests across 6 projects, some 
 that you could start on right away and some that require more 
 intimate knowledge with the project.

 ...Or the experienced C/Python programmer that wants to know which 
 tasks at Apache they could hack on as a good introduction to that 
 project, while at the same time helping the project accomplish something 
 new.

 ...Oh, and wouldn't it be nifty if we could have a widget we could 
 place on our web site that lists what we as a project or foundation 
 are looking for right now in terms of work to be done, so when 
 people visit our page, they can see that "hey, we're looking for a 
 web dev guru - is that you?" ?

 Enter 'Help Wanted!'. It's a very small (and very much 
 work-in-progress) tool that you can use to browse the tasks that 
 all the Apache projects would like to get done, see the difficulty 
 of it, language (whether spoken/written or programming) skills 
 needed, what it's about and who/how to contact. You can also use 
 the HW widget to plug your own project's requests into your web 
 site, or you can display all the current tasks waiting in the 
 system across the ASF. 350+ initiatives,
 170+ TLPs, one uniform hub for requests that can help people get 
 170+ started
 with Apache.

 The code is "live" at: 
 https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fhe

RE: Guiding volunteers

[Ross Gardler]

Q1 - already accounted for ("mentor" label)
Q2- already accounted for (and documented, use ComDev JIRA, sub the issue to 
dev mailing list)

The mentoring docs are already intended to be generic, I.e. Support non GSoC 
mentoring. Though I have no doubt they can be improved.

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Dennis E. Hamilton<mailto:dennis.hamil...@acm.org>
Sent: ‎2/‎6/‎2016 10:20 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
Subject: RE: Guiding volunteers

In the case of GSoC mentoring, one needed change is to add the search case 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fs.apache.org%2fgsoc2016tasks=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c4cd6f899105745ba25e108d32f223b14%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=6lNYbRG9lkS2SzgNScAS2V0eqo7zXNlTD0wbkirxFFY%3d
 or maybe a generic 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fs.apache.org%2fgsoctasks.=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c4cd6f899105745ba25e108d32f223b14%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=hJfc%2bsPUbss9MoEuyDw%2bycYaXAGCzHHzez135tETK4A%3d

Then the Guide to being a mentor can be updated to match that and not continue 
to mention "gsoc2011".

This requires adding a public filter to the ASF JIRA and I am not certain who 
has the karma and skills to do that (being on a bugzilla-based project myself 
and my JIRA skills are past their use-by date).

QUESTION #1: If we want to broaden this mentoring of volunteers under other 
conditions, I assume that can be done by additional labelling cases along with 
or separate from any gsoc label.  Yes?

QUESTION #2: For non-GSoC mentoring of volunteers on a bugzilla-reliant 
project, I assume using the special JIRA arrangement and mailing list that has 
been dedicated to GSoC needs an alternative or modification.  We still need a 
generic place for volunteer to be able to look when looking for mentoring, but 
that might guide them to a variety of places.  Are there thoughts on how to 
flex that GSoC-focused arrangement in some manner, or to cross-connect with a 
generic arrangement?

 - Dennis


> -Original Message-
> From: Rich Bowen [mailto:rbo...@rcbowen.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 23:37
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Guiding volunteers
>
>
>
> On 02/05/2016 08:23 AM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> > This focus on tooling is the wrong focus,
>
> Yeah .. I was going to say ... we could spend weeks down the rat-hole of
> which tool, which tracker, which technology, and we'll lose track of the
> goal.
>
> Invariably when I travel to events, I get excited about what we could do
> at Apache to get the word out, if only ... and then I get back home and
> real life pushes out those good intentions. Tomorrow is the last day of
> my travels. Perhaps I can get something done today ...
>
>
>
> especially for those of us who don't know how to get started on new
> tooling, or for those who recognize we already have a fine tool for the
> job - we're just not communicating it well.
> >
> > Here are three concreate actions *anyone* with a little time available
> can take today.
> >
> > 1) Update the page at 
> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fcommunity.apache.org%2fguide-to-being-a-=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c4cd6f899105745ba25e108d32f223b14%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=3c30cYtsVivKqFCwuQry%2bjTUYvOco5smiw28P3AOI9E%3d
> mentor.html to be more generic (i.e. not GSOC specific) and reflect the
> goals of this thread (if you don't know how to use the ASF CMS to edit
> our site I've pasted the markdown below, just edit here and someone can
> put it onto the site for you)
> >
> > 2) Pick your favourite project. Drop a mail to the dev list. Explain
> your motivation. Ask them to mark issues according to the guidelines in
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fcommunity.apache.org%2fguide-to-being-a-mentor.html=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c4cd6f899105745ba25e108d32f223b14%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=jzKOdrzMpiM6btUeFMsL4%2b3XpRlR9Z0SLlJCjVYmUHQ%3d
> >
> > 3) Get the message out to those who need a little guidance that they
> can find such issues in JIRA (there are many ways this can be done, all
> of them are good ;-)
> >
> >
> >
> > Ross
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Venkat Raman [mailto:ramanindy...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 4, 2016 7:55 PM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Guiding volunteers
> >
> > Hi -
> >
> > It would be extremely helpful to have systems like savannah to newbies
> to dive in based on their skill sets and area of interest.I would like
> to contribute as well.

RE: Guiding volunteers

[Ross Gardler]

Before we go deep and technical in tooling, I think we should put a list 
together that *this* community would like to see. We can worry about other 
projects when we have or own house in order.

A simple list, in the form of replies in this thread would be good progress. In 
fact a first contribution from someone could then be to summarize this thread.

A brainstorming thread. No judgement of ideas, just a list.

If we get that list then we can think about collating it and making it 
accessible via tools as suggested in this thread already

Ross

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Rich Bowen
Sent: ‎2/‎4/‎2016 3:07 AM
To: dev
Subject: Guiding volunteers

Several times a month we get people either here, or contacting us
individually, saying that they want to participate, and we don't do a
great job of steering them to Good Things.

I'd like to see a list (I don't care about the technology, and simple is
better) of ideas that people can work on. Things that take 10 minutes.
Things that take 2 months. Everything in between. People willing to
mentor and help, but who don't have the time to do it themselves.

I have a list of ideas that I would like to do some day, and have
recently accepted that I will never have the time to do them. But I want
someone to do them.

--
Rich Bowen - rbo...@rcbowen.com - @rbowen
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fapachecon.com%2f=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7cebe7dc03f0744e0ad6e708d32d535305%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=stCwVmrVW6gFbKnOXYVMNMULnRcLQiZZnCkvxKJncdQ%3d
 - @apachecon

RE: Google's Summer of Code

[Ross Gardler]

http://community.apache.org/guide-to-being-a-mentor.html

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Lionel Elle Romo
Sent: ‎2/‎4/‎2016 7:32 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Google's Summer of Code

Google summer of code what would i be doing dayly if i was to volinteer
On Feb 3, 2016 7:23 PM, "Roman Shaposhnik"  wrote:

> Hi!
>
> The window for mentor organizations to apply for Google's
> Summer of Code 2016 opens on Monday, February 8th.
> Is there anybody who's planning to take care of ASF as
> an org and follow up with the projects?
>
> Thanks,
> Roman.
>

RE: Guiding volunteers

[Ross Gardler]

You are right. What I meant was people here are clearly interested in the act 
of community development. Therefore, we should each think about what we (as 
individuals in ComDev) can do to support people in the projects we represent in 
the broader ecosystem.

That's shouldn't be exclude listing issues in Jira as we do already for GSOC. 
But it can extend to making sure we actually point people to those lists of 
issues when someone turns up here.

Ross

-Original Message-
From: Bertrand Delacretaz [mailto:bdelacre...@apache.org] 
Sent: Thursday, February 4, 2016 9:23 AM
To: dev <dev@community.apache.org>
Subject: Re: Guiding volunteers

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 4:31 PM, Ross Gardler <ross.gard...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> ...Before we go deep and technical in tooling, I think we should put a 
> list together that *this* community would like to see

Maybe I missed something but I haven't seen people looking at doing comdev 
stuff, the requests I have seen are from people who want to be involved in our 
projects at the code level.

So from this angle IMO what we can do at the comdev level is encourage projects 
to advertise their help wanted tasks, and maybe suggest a way of doing that 
that provides some foundation-wide consistency.

At the simplest we could just suggest that interested projects provide a "help 
wanted" link on their website front page, as part of our website guidelines.

-Bertrand

RE: Request for a mentor

[Ross Gardler]

It sounds like you already found 
http://community.apache.org/gettingStarted/101.html if not start there.

Apache is all about helping oneself. To find people willing to mentor you it is 
recommended you show up with evidence you will return more value than time you 
ask for. Everyone here is a volunteer and had their own drivers, which usually 
prioritize the production of strong coding communities. So if you arrive at a 
project that interests your and offer contributions, then you'll find people 
will help you.

In your mail you identify areas of interest but have not defined a specific 
project of interest.you indicate you are confused by our projects page. 
That's fine. It just means you have yet to find something that excites you.

I recommend you read blogs that cover your area of interest. Find tutorials 
that look cool. Ruin through them. Learn which projects are used within them. 
Then come back to the page linked above and file the practical advice wiring it 
for those specific projects

Ross

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Anirudh Jain
Sent: ‎1/‎9/‎2016 3:44 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Request for a mentor

Hi Roman,

I have gone through the Apache projects page multiple times and came out
hopelessly confused. My primary research interests are Artificial
Intelligence and Machine Learning, but apart from that, I love to find out
clever solutions to complicated problems. I also love to learn about new
technologies and how they might grow to influence us. I am less interested
in front-end but more in the cogs-and-wheels which make the things run.
I would love to work in anything related to machine learning, big data or
any other area which could use me. What I might lack in knowledge, I will
make up in willingness to learn and my enthusiasm to contribute.

Thanks,
Anirudh Jain

On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 8:44 AM, pooja sukhi  wrote:

> Add me too. I am also interested in java
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
> 
>
> On Fri, 8 Jan, 2016 at 11:01 pm, Anirudh Jain
>  wrote:
> I am currently pursuing Integrated Masters of Technology in Mathematics and
> Computing from Indian Institute of Technology, Dhanbad. I am proficient in
> basics of Java and data structures. I am looking to start working on
> development software too and given my love for all things open source,
> Apache community seems an ideal place to start.
> I went over the various projects under development by apache community, and
> despite my enthusiasm to contribute I find myself very confused about how
> to take the first step.
> I would greatly appreciate if I can find a mentor which would help me so I
> could begin my first steps.
>
> Regards,
> Anirudh Jain
> +91 9097303037
> Int. M.Tech. Maths and Computing
> Indian Institute of Technology, Dhanbad
> India
>
>

RE: Thanks for AOO

[Ross Gardler]

Yay. Thanks for sharing.

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Dennis E. Hamilton<mailto:orc...@apache.org>
Sent: ‎12/‎4/‎2015 7:29 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
Subject: RE: Thanks for AOO

The PDF is filed at 
<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fs.apache.org%2f0Yi=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7cb1366a13d6c849e2f3b608d2fcbfc3b7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=HCKvTLrqWG1c7%2fiYfFuU0qLW0VOVxjVOeXtCNouTF1Q%3d>.

> -Original Message-
> From: Jim Jagielski [mailto:j...@jagunet.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 4, 2015 04:45
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Thanks for AOO
>
> Attachment must have gotten stripped off
>
> > On Dec 4, 2015, at 7:34 AM, sebb <seb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Original mail was sent to Comdev; no attachment.
> >
> > Followup with attachment was sent to private@openoffice.a.o
> >
> > On 4 December 2015 at 12:21, Jim Jagielski <j...@jagunet.com> wrote:
> >> Hmmm... not sure. It shows up in my copy.
> >>
> >>> On Dec 4, 2015, at 1:42 AM, Ross Gardler
> <ross.gard...@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Did an attachment get stripped?
> >>>
> >>> -Original Message-
> >>> From: Jim Jagielski [mailto:j...@jagunet.com]
> >>> Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2015 4:56 AM
> >>> To: ComDev <dev@community.apache.org>
> >>> Subject: Thanks for AOO
> >>>
> >>> Sometimes, a letter can make your day!
> >>>
> >>

RE: Thanks for AOO

[Ross Gardler]

Did an attachment get stripped?

-Original Message-
From: Jim Jagielski [mailto:j...@jagunet.com] 
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2015 4:56 AM
To: ComDev 
Subject: Thanks for AOO

Sometimes, a letter can make your day!

RE: 答复: 答复: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ross Gardler]

HjEm
> > > c7jGf7
> > > x
> > > oXS RA6MXUtczeSshXk%3d) a localized pointer to localized helpers
> > > in community.apache.org.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Of course, if the localized team grows big, they can engage more
> > > translations on some TLPs.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Then +1 to creating ch...@community.apache.org +
> > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fco
> > > mmunit
> > > y.
> > > a
> > > pache.org%2fchina.html=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.co
> > > m%7c37
> > > 3
> > > 953
> > > 5c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&
> > > sdata=
> > > O
> > > lA9 hXKy5wFT2z%2fPNWm%2f%2fRl%2bLcCLvKxI7DwDoZVYvsE%3d to explain
> > > the concept And probably
> > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fco
> > > mmunit
> > > y.
> > > a
> > > pache.org%2finternational.html=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.
> > > c
> > > om%
> > > 7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011d
> > > b47%7c
> > > 1
> > >  ata=o%2bhr%2b0B77v2nXFdQsAoby8ISqKHYky4i5Sluma9ViyE%3d to
> > > point to every localization where this process is started
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Notice: instead of "china" = a country name in english, we should
> > > name it after language: ISO-639 alpha-3 codes seem a better choice
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > IMHO, easy to start and see which locales get traction
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hervé
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Le samedi 21 novembre 2015 19:34:11 Niclas Hedhman a écrit :
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > I agree that translated content is a great start, if there is
> > > > enough energy for it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > There are three main "entry points" into Apache outside of the
> > > > projects themselves;
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >   a.
> > > >   https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=www.apache.org
> > > >   ta
> > > >   =
> > > >   01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f23100108d2f2
> > > >   6a
> > > >   c9
> > > >   d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=1owk036Iz0L7CvCjYK79
> > > >   VJ
> > > >   Yn
> > > >   0zU%2fKsXoeTkFfi3ED5k%3d
> >
> >
> >
> >  b.
> >
> >
> >
> > > >   https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=incubator.apache.
> > > >   or
> > > >   g
> > > >   =01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f231001
> > > >   08
> > > >   d2
> > > >   f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=ZvN%2ftVv2eINl
> > > >   LZ
> > > >   Hj
> > > >   Emc7jGf7xoXSRA6MXUtczeSshXk%3d c.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=community.apa
> > > > che.or
> > > >
> > > > g=01%7c01%7ctedl%40064d.mgd.microsoft.com%7c3739535c7a0d4f2
> > > > 310010
> > > >
> > > > 8d2f26ac9d7%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=%2fZti2
> > > > MXsNqq
> > > >
> > > > O0quW2NRyF45mpfx7pTE14aitDzC3nVk%3d
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > As far as I know, the actual content is in some markdown text
> > > > format, and should be relatively easy to get going page by page,
> > > > and I am sure Infrastructure will be able to let us know where
> > > > to put it, and link it into the user experience "somehow".
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > That content alone are probably volunteer-months worth of work,
> > > > especially since I think peer review is very important, since
&g

RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ross Gardler]

At this point we don't have enough people in China who also understand the 
Apache Way to drive it forwards. We have some really great help from people 
like Ted and we have a handful of ASF people on the ground, but we don't have 
enough to really build momentum - not yet. Those who are willing can't do it 
alone, they need support. That support should come from here.

-Original Message-
From: Alex Harui [mailto:aha...@adobe.com] 
Sent: Monday, November 23, 2015 11:12 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community



On 11/23/15, 11:01 AM, "Benson Margulies"  wrote:

>It won't be a community if people are unable to follow the discussions. 
>I think that it would be fine to handle user@ traffic in whatever 
>language, but we need to enforce English as the language of community 
>decision making.

Sure, once the decision starts to harden.  But I see no reason to require it 
24/7 and only more harm if we require it.  It will force certain discussions to 
places where you won't know they are going on, or make it so difficult that 
folks won't participate.  Would you really require English-only at an ApacheCon 
hackathon?  So what if a couple of folks are from Russia and speaking Russian 
amongst themselves.  And you always have the right to ask "hey, I saw the word 
'Sling' come up in your thread, can you give me a quick summary in English?"
 
>
>On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 1:44 PM, Roman Shaposhnik 
>
>wrote:
>> On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 10:39 AM, Alex Harui  wrote:
>>>
>>> My initial instinct is that per-language mailing lists aren't a good 
>>>idea.
>>>  But I would not require that folks post in English either.  
>>>Otherwise it  feels like saying at ApacheCon that you have to go 
>>>another room to have a  conversation in your native language.  Even 
>>>if I can't read what is being  written by others, I can probably pick 
>>>out a few keywords and at least  have an idea that certain topics are 
>>>being discussed.
>>
>> There's also 
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2ftrans
>> late.google.com=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7ca932815
>> 08c7544e41c6e08d2f43a0d1e%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1
>> a=i9Rami39IZVtw%2br4oG0%2bi9bTgM3sEkC6a5Y%2fDc3p4aY%3d ;-)

That would be for me to use if I'm curious about what folks are saying in 
another language, but IMO, we should not require that folks use it before 
posting.

-Alex

RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ross Gardler]

True that any channel can be used for dissemination BUT it cannot use the 
apache brand unless managed by Apache itself. In the of announcements etc that 
management will happen through our Marketing team. Though I would suggest this 
list for development of the ideas etc.

Ted, you already know Sally as you worked with her for the roadshow. Before 
creating an Apache branded WeChat channel we need to ensure Sally is prepared.

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Ted Dunning
Sent: ‎11/‎21/‎2015 6:06 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 9:53 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:

> p.s. The reason why a Wechat public account is a big plus because it is
> used by 500M Wechat chatters on daily basis to acquire/learn information.
> This is a very effective China-specific scenario.
>

Note that you can use ANY channel or medium to inform people about how
Apache works or tell them what projects do or share experiences.

It is the development that has to be on the official lists.

RE: 答复: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ross Gardler]

Incubation is one area where I think we can do more than just localize content. 
I think mentors who are at least aware of Chinese culture are needed.

We, ComDev, should be a good place to help b build those mentoring teams.

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Luke Han
Sent: ‎11/‎21/‎2015 6:17 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: 答复: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community

One more important thing I would like to emphasize here is there are many
people are consulting me, our members, other ASF members in China about how
to not only contribute code but also bring some projects to ASF. That's I
would like to say more localization content, events, meetups will help a
lot to engage the local community to contribute more to ASF.



Best Regards!
-

Luke Han

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 10:10 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:

> Understood.
>
>
> Ted
> 
> 发件人: Ted Dunning
> 发送时间: ‎2015/‎11/‎21 22:06
> 收件人: dev@community.apache.org
> 主题: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China
> Community
>
> On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 9:53 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:
>
> > p.s. The reason why a Wechat public account is a big plus because it is
> > used by 500M Wechat chatters on daily basis to acquire/learn information.
> > This is a very effective China-specific scenario.
> >
>
> Note that you can use ANY channel or medium to inform people about how
> Apache works or tell them what projects do or share experiences.
>
> It is the development that has to be on the official lists.
>

RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ross Gardler]

Localized content is a great suggestion.

-Original Message-
From: Hervé BOUTEMY [mailto:herve.bout...@free.fr] 
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 2:58 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community

I like the idea of doing something to better engage with China or India or 
"country of your choice" people interested in Open Source but not able 
currently because of language and cultural barriers for masses

But when I read "forming the Apache China Community", I read forming something 
completely separate, and eventually forming a separate TLP: staying short, I'm 
not convinced

What about creating localized content in 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fcommunity.apache.org%2f=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c3f189780a87344cabc1608d2f262b677%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=1RvsCGO3%2fEVJ6QXQEt%2bBcV%2bVlrhqAXHD1jAPYGjUZ6w%3d
 , pointing to dedicated non-english language mailing lists, focused on 
explaining community aspects, how to engage with Apache projects and to deal 
with the fact that Apache projects are done in english?

Because I don't see:
- how we could do localized lists for every Apache TLP
- how we could do a TLP that we can't interact with in english (I can say it 
because I'm not native english: english language is our minimum common 
convention, and it cost me to learn it :) )

But perhaps existing community TLP could have localized sub-projects (taking 
the form of content + mailing lists, but not code) targeted at helping people 
work with other TLPs

WDYT?

Regards,

Hervé

Le samedi 21 novembre 2015 18:14:11 Ted Dunning a écrit :
> Ted,
> 
> It is not clear that what you want to happen is not happening.
> 
> There does seem to be an open discussion. Here and elsewhere.
> 
> What exactly do you want to happen?
> 
> What good thing is not happening?
> 
> What bad thing is happening?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> > On Nov 21, 2015, at 17:58, Ted Liu  wrote:
> > 
> > Hi Niclas,
> > 
> > It'd be appreciated an open and constructive discussion can be 
> > formed at ASF instead of labeling or stereotyping. The ask of 
> > forming of a community, group or alike in China comes from the 
> > grass-root idea and action because there are strong demands here. 
> > Otherwise nobody would care and nobody could be instructed or 
> > directed. That’s the reason why a group of Chinese ASF members, PMC 
> > members, committers, contributors, etc., want to work together 
> > voluntarily to change the status quo by bridging the Chinese talents 
> > and good projects to/from ASF. The motivation and enablement of the 
> > local community/group will be mainly from the experienced Chinese 
> > ASF members, committers and contributors, who people will trust, instead of 
> > any individual new to ASF.
> > 
> > Talking about the language barrier, you should already know how 
> > difficult it is to learn Chinese after living 4+ years in Shanghai. 
> > One recent example is that literally no one from the Apache Fans 
> > Wechat social group
> > (360 people now) responded to your proposal, in English, to hold a 
> > technical meetup in Shanghai. Your ASF status and the fact of your 
> > location in Shanghai do not automatically translate into trust and 
> > effective communication to enable and motivate people's actions. The 
> > wait of a good machine translation is an unknown that younger 
> > generation contributors would not tolerate.
> > 
> > The more challenging part is the culture differences where the sense 
> > of community, governance, contribution and the Apache Way are still 
> > at infant stage in China. There are more than enough good codes and 
> > events (conferences, meetups, etc.) in China. The real blockers are 
> > language and non-Apache-Way culture where the proposed China 
> > community/group can contribute.
> > 
> > 
> > Ted
> > 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:hedh...@gmail.com]
> > Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:02 PM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache 
> > China Community
> > 
> > Ted,
> > 2 things...
> > 
> > 1. There were Apache Roadshows in Shanghai in 2010 and 2011.
> > 
> > 2. I am glad to see your enthusiasm of forming/creating 
> > organization. But the ASF and many other open source projects are 
> > not command driven top-down structures. So, there is very 
> > little "need" for "creation of communities". They either form, or they 
> > don't.
> > 
> > I was happy to see that the younger generation at the Roadshow in 
> > Beijing grasped that idea very well, whereas the somewhat older 
> > generation had a more top-down approach, of wanting to build it like 
> > a company, like a government or a religious organization. I hope 
> > that you can appreciate the difference and channel your enthusiasm slightly 
> > differently.
> > 
> > Like 

RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ross Gardler]

"The more challenging part is the culture differences where the sense of 
community, governance, contribution and the Apache Way are still at infant 
stage in China." I agree. This was my conclusion when you kindly facilitated my 
trip to China earlier this year. It is that trip that motivated me to focus on 
diversity and knowledge exchange in my State of the Feather session at 
ApacheCon NA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UkQBOvVhfw around 17 minutes for 
diversity in general, 27:50 for geographic diversity)

As a result of that trip you and I cooked up the idea of an Apache Event in 
China. You made that happen with a little help from myself and a bunch of other 
ASF folks as you note below. Moments ago I sent you details of the just opened 
ApacheCon CFP and gave you my personal assurance that any Chinese folks who get 
talks accepted will have my help in connecting with ASF people and mentors 
where they are available.

I want to share some of that mail here for others to comment on:

Communities are not “formed” through the creation of such organizations. 
Communities just happen when two things align. 1) there is a common goal - 
writing the code to solve a problem in the case of the ASF and 2) there are 
people who facilitate and motivate in order to bring people together around the 
common goal. 

I hear you saying that there are “Chinese ASF members, PMC members, committers, 
contributors” who want this. Then they should just do it. Those are the people 
who should know how to do it and they should just get on with it and do it – in 
an Apache style – by writing code and facilitating and enabling project 
communities around that code.

There really is no magic formula. There are set of experiences that need to be 
shared so that optimal decisions can be made. What people desire is a magic 
formula called The Apache Way. I’m sorry to say there is no formula and 
therefore creating a top down structure to manage the spread of this magic 
formula will do more to kill it than enable it.

What concerns me about this proposal is that it wants to create a China 
specific Apache body because "the sense of community, governance, contribution 
and the Apache Way are still at infant stage in China". So if it is at infant 
stage who is to help guide this infant to maturity? How does the ASF provide 
guidance to this infant?

I'm not in favor of a separate China org. I am 100% in favor of helping you and 
your Chinese colleagues right here and through cultural exchanges like those 
that I talked about at ApacheCon and you have facilitated.

Ross

-Original Message-
From: Ted Liu [mailto:t...@microsoft.com] 
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 1:58 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org; nic...@hedhman.org
Subject: RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community

Hi Niclas, 

It'd be appreciated an open and constructive discussion can be formed at ASF 
instead of labeling or stereotyping. The ask of forming of a community, group 
or alike in China comes from the grass-root idea and action because there are 
strong demands here. Otherwise nobody would care and nobody could be instructed 
or directed. That’s the reason why a group of Chinese ASF members, PMC members, 
committers, contributors, etc., want to work together voluntarily to change the 
status quo by bridging the Chinese talents and good projects to/from ASF. The 
motivation and enablement of the local community/group will be mainly from the 
experienced Chinese ASF members, committers and contributors, who people will 
trust, instead of any individual new to ASF.

Talking about the language barrier, you should already know how difficult it is 
to learn Chinese after living 4+ years in Shanghai. One recent example is that 
literally no one from the Apache Fans Wechat social group (360 people now) 
responded to your proposal, in English, to hold a technical meetup in Shanghai. 
Your ASF status and the fact of your location in Shanghai do not automatically 
translate into trust and effective communication to enable and motivate 
people's actions. The wait of a good machine translation is an unknown that 
younger generation contributors would not tolerate.

The more challenging part is the culture differences where the sense of 
community, governance, contribution and the Apache Way are still at infant 
stage in China. There are more than enough good codes and events (conferences, 
meetups, etc.) in China. The real blockers are language and non-Apache-Way 
culture where the proposed China community/group can contribute.


Ted

-Original Message-
From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:hedh...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:02 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community

Ted,
2 things...

1. There were Apache Roadshows in Shanghai in 2010 and 2011.

2. I am glad to see your enthusiasm of forming/creating organization. But the 
ASF and many other 

RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ross Gardler]

Why do those pioneers need a place outside of the ASF to do that? If they do 
need a place outside the ASF why does it need an Apache logo on it?

-Original Message-
From: Lei Chang [mailto:chang.lei...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 2:17 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Cc: nic...@hedhman.org
Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community

+1 for a formal community project in China.

There are some experiences I can share when some apache committers in China are 
developing the community for Apache HAWQ (in incubation).

A wechat group was created, and there are many people who are very active at 
ask questions and contributing ideas. This is a kind of very difficult to 
happen with some Chinese native guys discussing in English. There are about 5 
million college graduates each year in China, and i think there is a great 
potential to increase the number of contributors from Apache community in China.

Developing an Apache community in China needs some pioneers to get together, 
discuss, directs and organize the meetups, conferences. It would be very 
helpful to have a formal Apache community project set up to work on this.

Cheers
Lei


On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Ted Liu  wrote:

> Hi Niclas,
>
> It'd be appreciated an open and constructive discussion can be formed 
> at ASF instead of labeling or stereotyping. The ask of forming of a 
> community, group or alike in China comes from the grass-root idea and 
> action because there are strong demands here. Otherwise nobody would 
> care and nobody could be instructed or directed. That’s the reason why 
> a group of Chinese ASF members, PMC members, committers, contributors, 
> etc., want to work together voluntarily to change the status quo by 
> bridging the Chinese talents and good projects to/from ASF. The 
> motivation and enablement of the local community/group will be mainly 
> from the experienced Chinese ASF members, committers and contributors, 
> who people will trust, instead of any individual new to ASF.
>
> Talking about the language barrier, you should already know how 
> difficult it is to learn Chinese after living 4+ years in Shanghai. 
> One recent example is that literally no one from the Apache Fans 
> Wechat social group
> (360 people now) responded to your proposal, in English, to hold a 
> technical meetup in Shanghai. Your ASF status and the fact of your 
> location in Shanghai do not automatically translate into trust and 
> effective communication to enable and motivate people's actions. The 
> wait of a good machine translation is an unknown that younger 
> generation contributors would not tolerate.
>
> The more challenging part is the culture differences where the sense 
> of community, governance, contribution and the Apache Way are still at 
> infant stage in China. There are more than enough good codes and 
> events (conferences, meetups, etc.) in China. The real blockers are 
> language and non-Apache-Way culture where the proposed China 
> community/group can contribute.
>
>
> Ted
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Niclas Hedhman [mailto:hedh...@gmail.com]
> Sent: Saturday, November 21, 2015 3:02 PM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache 
> China Community
>
> Ted,
> 2 things...
>
> 1. There were Apache Roadshows in Shanghai in 2010 and 2011.
>
> 2. I am glad to see your enthusiasm of forming/creating organization. 
> But the ASF and many other open source projects are not 
> command driven top-down structures. So, there is very little 
> "need" for "creation of communities". They either form, or they don't.
>
> I was happy to see that the younger generation at the Roadshow in 
> Beijing grasped that idea very well, whereas the somewhat older 
> generation had a more top-down approach, of wanting to build it like a 
> company, like a government or a religious organization. I hope that 
> you can appreciate the difference and channel your enthusiasm slightly 
> differently.
>
> Like you, I think language barrier is currently a big barrier, but I 
> have first hand witnessed the improvements in online translation 
> services in the past few years. Enormous improvement. Perhaps we are 
> soon at a stage where this can be an additional tool to bridge this gap.
>
> My suggestions are towards localized meetups, where discussion, 
> hacking, presentations are conducted, by the participants, for the 
> participants, a peer-to-peer environment. Apache doesn't need to be 
> formally involved in this, but I am sure many Apache contributors 
> would be happy to participate, as peers, in such events/clubs. And I 
> am convinced this will spin off both projects as well as dieect contribution 
> to ASF and other projects.
>
> Be an igniter, not a driver. Ignite many small efforts, instead of 
> single big one.
>
> Keep up the positive work.
>
> Niclas
>
> On Nov 21, 2015 13:18, "Ted Liu" 

RE: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China Community

[Ross Gardler]

I'm opposed to a separate Apache org, our even an apache project. Not opposed 
to a china specific org of its own. In fact I helped create KAIYUANSHE that Ted 
mentions in his original mail and up continue to help that community in the 
ways I can (I'm also linguistically challenged).

As more Chinese folks learn how we work it becomes more likely that a Chinese 
speaking community will emerge. Possibly past of the ASF, possibly something 
different.

I agree the way forward, here at Apache, is for Chinese devs, who are able, to 
engage in our projects. Some of which already have plenty of Chinese members. 
Things will grow from there.

At the same time, we in ComDev should help Ted and others in any way we can.

Sent from my Windows Phone

From: Ted Dunning<mailto:ted.dunn...@gmail.com>
Sent: ‎11/‎21/‎2015 3:27 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org<mailto:dev@community.apache.org>
Cc: nic...@hedhman.org<mailto:nic...@hedhman.org>
Subject: Re: Forming a community of Apache fans in China - Apache China 
Community


Ross,

How do you square opposition to a separate china org with the irreconcilable 
needs to maintain English as the language of apache with the need to allow 
non-English speaking Chinese speakers to participate?

I can't.

To the extent that it is possible, I encourage English capable people from 
china to participate in projects like singa, Zeppelin and kylin (all Asian 
origin projects at apache).

That satisfies part of the need.

There is also a serious need for projects that conduct themselves in Chinese. 
(There are also likely other languages where this need arises)

Such groups cannot validly be overseen by a non-Chinese speaking board.

How is a new Chinese speaking organization anything not important?

I don't suggest that apache create such a beast. I would love it if apache 
veterans help with it.  If I can help, I will, but I am handicapped by my 
linguistic ignorance. As it is often said, those with the itch must do the 
scratching.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 21, 2015, at 18:43, Ross Gardler <ross.gard...@microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> I'm not in favor of a separate China org. I am 100% in favor of helping you 
> and your Chinese colleagues right here and through cultural exchanges like 
> those that I talked about at ApacheCon and you have facilitated.

Apache Roadshow in China

[Ross Gardler]

I've mentioned the proposed Apache Roadshow in China a few times and finally 
I'm able to announce that it's actually happening.

http://www.kaiyuanshe.cn/index.php?option=com_content=article=84

Thank you to all the ASF folks who are speaking at this event :)

If you know people in China please spread the word.

Ross

RE: Revive retre...@apache.org ?

[Ross Gardler]

Yes, retreats were (and hopefully will be again) an attempt to do more 
community focused events. Less conference more barcamp.

Ross

-Original Message-
From: gch...@gmail.com [mailto:gch...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Greg Chase
Sent: Friday, October 9, 2015 9:30 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Revive retre...@apache.org ?

Sorry, what's retreating in this case? Is this related to conferences?

On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 8:41 AM, Ross Gardler <ross.gard...@microsoft.com>
wrote:

> A reasonable assumption I guess ;-)
>
> That list has never had significant eyes though and after so long will 
> have even less. If you want to revive things go where the eyes are. We 
> know there are plenty of folks interested in general community 
> development here, including lurkers looking for ways to help.
>
> I recommend staying here until people complain about the noise.
>
> Ross
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Daniel Gruno [mailto:humbed...@apache.org]
> Sent: Friday, October 9, 2015 8:09 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Revive retre...@apache.org ?
>
> On 10/09/2015 05:00 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> > Why not do it here? If it gets too noisy then we can move.
>
> We could do that, sure - I just assumed retre...@apache.org was meant 
> for discussing retreats :)
>
> If no one bothers to move to the list, I'll start my proposals on this 
> list instead.
>
> With regards,
> Daniel.
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from Outlook
> > Mail<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2
> > fg 
> > o.microsoft.com%2ffwlink%2f%3fLinkId%3d550987=01%7c01%7cRoss.Ga
> > rd
> > ler%40microsoft.com%7cb40a6630cd604e62906408d2d0bb8572%7c72f988bf86f
> > 14 
> > 1af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=ylVXVzmC%2fg1yU6aWqfJRfc7JIRtU4XV8B4%2
> > bV
> > sYWUYMs%3d> for Windows 10 phone
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Daniel Gruno
> > Sent: Friday, October 9, 2015 6:54 AM
> > To: dev@community.apache.org
> > Subject: Revive retre...@apache.org ?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > This is a 'call to arms' to get the retre...@apache.org list revived 
> > and repopulated. We are a bunch of people with some new ideas for 
> > Apache retreats, and it would be swell if there were active people 
> > on that list, so we could bounce ideas off each other.
> >
> > So, come and join retre...@apache.org :)
> >
> > With regards,
> > Daniel.
> >
>
>

RE: Revive retre...@apache.org ?

[Ross Gardler]

Why not do it here? If it gets too noisy then we can move.



Sent from Outlook Mail for 
Windows 10 phone





From: Daniel Gruno
Sent: Friday, October 9, 2015 6:54 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Revive retre...@apache.org ?





Hi folks,

This is a 'call to arms' to get the retre...@apache.org list revived and
repopulated. We are a bunch of people with some new ideas for Apache
retreats, and it would be swell if there were active people on that
list, so we could bounce ideas off each other.

So, come and join retre...@apache.org :)

With regards,
Daniel.

RE: Revive retre...@apache.org ?

[Ross Gardler]

A reasonable assumption I guess ;-)

That list has never had significant eyes though and after so long will have 
even less. If you want to revive things go where the eyes are. We know there 
are plenty of folks interested in general community development here, including 
lurkers looking for ways to help.

I recommend staying here until people complain about the noise.

Ross

-Original Message-
From: Daniel Gruno [mailto:humbed...@apache.org] 
Sent: Friday, October 9, 2015 8:09 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Revive retre...@apache.org ?

On 10/09/2015 05:00 PM, Ross Gardler wrote:
> Why not do it here? If it gets too noisy then we can move.

We could do that, sure - I just assumed retre...@apache.org was meant for 
discussing retreats :)

If no one bothers to move to the list, I'll start my proposals on this list 
instead.

With regards,
Daniel.

> 
> 
> 
> Sent from Outlook 
> Mail<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fg
> o.microsoft.com%2ffwlink%2f%3fLinkId%3d550987=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gard
> ler%40microsoft.com%7cb40a6630cd604e62906408d2d0bb8572%7c72f988bf86f14
> 1af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=ylVXVzmC%2fg1yU6aWqfJRfc7JIRtU4XV8B4%2bV
> sYWUYMs%3d> for Windows 10 phone
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Daniel Gruno
> Sent: Friday, October 9, 2015 6:54 AM
> To: dev@community.apache.org
> Subject: Revive retre...@apache.org ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi folks,
> 
> This is a 'call to arms' to get the retre...@apache.org list revived 
> and repopulated. We are a bunch of people with some new ideas for 
> Apache retreats, and it would be swell if there were active people on 
> that list, so we could bounce ideas off each other.
> 
> So, come and join retre...@apache.org :)
> 
> With regards,
> Daniel.
> 

RE: Fwd: A $5B Value: The Code in Linux Foundation Collaborative Projects

[Ross Gardler]

This whole process is nonsense (not disparaging the work done by people here, 
it's good to see comparative numbers). My point is, as Daniel says below, it's 
all subjective. The value is not in how much effort it takes to pump out code - 
hell I've probably written at least a $B of code by that measure - most of it 
was never used.

What is important is what economic value does the code produce. If we look at 
it that way I'd say our code (and that of LF for that matter) is worth many, 
many $B more than these numbers imply. The HTTPd project, for example, drives 
over 50% of the web - what's the value of the web?

Ross

-Original Message-
From: jan i [mailto:j...@apache.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2015 8:59 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Fwd: A $5B Value: The Code in Linux Foundation Collaborative 
Projects

Hi Daniel.

I know that David gave a keynote (was there) with the numbers you mention, but 
I imaged making it more "official" like this report, so we have something to 
sponsors and other interested.

We need to promote ASF, and this could be one  way of doing it.

rgds
jan I.




On 30 September 2015 at 17:20, Daniel Gruno  wrote:

> Hi Jan,
> We actually did the math last year for ACEU 2014, I'll try to find it 
> for you.
> But in short, take the LF number, multiply it by 1.25 and you sort of 
> get to the figures we were discussing back then.
> This is highly subjective and not in any way an _actual_ science 
> (neither are the LF numbers, they're all just big guesses), but it's 
> fun do try out the math :)
>
> We have around 140-150 million lines of code at the moment, which by 
> using our own model would take around 38k person-years to do (LF has 
> used some math that makes coding take even longer - by their 
> standards, it would take 50k person-years to write our code). We had a 
> very conservative cost estimation at $2B back then. By LF standards, that 
> figure would be $6.1B.
>
> With regards,
> Daniel.
>
> On 2015-09-30 16:59, jan iversen wrote:
>
>> Hi.
>>
>> This report is real interesting reading, it could be real cool to do 
>> the same math for ASF.
>>
>> Is anybody interested in forming a small work team (a LABS project), 
>> and try to do the calculation for ASF ?
>>
>> rgds
>> jan I.
>>
>>
>>
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: Linux Foundation 
>> Date: 30 September 2015 at 14:21
>> Subject: A $5B Value: The Code in Linux Foundation Collaborative 
>> Projects
>> To: jancasacon...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>> Email not displaying correctly? View it in your browser < 
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fgo.li
>> nuxfoundation.org%2fwebmail%2f6342%2f660023375%2f7f912be3342cd3bcc0a9
>> 6fc9875f6fc8=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7cc9c24e42f7
>> 9e4ae8c5ec08d2c9b01c17%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=I
>> E5AbETfefCQQo1UHJjOFMZsGBc%2f4Mjfa2H1hm4iiEo%3d
>> >
>> .
>>
>> NEW Report: Estimating the Total Development Costs of Collaborative 
>> Projects < 
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fgo.li
>> nuxfoundation.org%2fe%2f6342%2fndation-collaborative-projects%2f2v9lw
>> 6%2f660023375=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7cc9c24e42f
>> 79e4ae8c5ec08d2c9b01c17%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=
>> DGBmb62vvucCqn2LPZXQIvXuczNJejI0rs6jXzOX4Tc%3d
>> >
>> The
>> Linux Foundation today is releasing its first-ever report that 
>> attempts to measure the collective value of development costs in its 
>> Collaborative Projects. The report is titled “*A $5 Billion Value: 
>> Estimating the Total Development Cost of Linux Foundation’s 
>> Collaborative Projects < 
>> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fgo.li
>> nuxfoundation.org%2fe%2f6342%2fndation-collaborative-projects%2f2v9lw
>> 6%2f660023375=01%7c01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7cc9c24e42f
>> 79e4ae8c5ec08d2c9b01c17%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=
>> DGBmb62vvucCqn2LPZXQIvXuczNJejI0rs6jXzOX4Tc%3d
>> >.*
>> ”
>>
>> Linux Foundation Collaborative Projects are independently funded 
>> software projects that harness the power of collaborative development 
>> to fuel innovation across industries and ecosystems. More than 500 
>> companies and thousands of developers from around the world 
>> contribute to these open source software projects that are changing the 
>> world in which we live.
>>
>> *Top-level findings from the report include:*
>>
>> - The total *lines of source code* present today in Linux Foundation’s
>> Collaborative Projects are *115,013,302*.
>>
>> - The *estimated, total amount of effort* required to retrace the 
>> steps
>> of *collaborative development* for these projects is *41,192.25 person
>> years*.
>>
>> - In other words, it would take *1,356 developers 30 years* to 
>> recreate
>> the code bases present in Linux Foundation’s current 
>> Collaborative Projects
>> listed above. The 

RE: FOSDEM 2016 - Call for Participation

[Ross Gardler]

Thank you Daniel.

-Original Message-
From: Daniel Gruno [mailto:humbed...@apache.org] 
Sent: Friday, September 25, 2015 12:43 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: FOSDEM 2016 - Call for Participation

On 09/25/2015 09:11 AM, Sharan Foga wrote:
> Hi All
> 
> I've just seen this call for participation at FOSDEM and I know we 
> talked about getting more of an Apache presence there.
> 
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2ffosde
> m.org%2f2016%2fnews%2f2015-09-24-call-for-participation%2f=01%7c0
> 1%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c73e0bcd89e0c4f4cda1808d2c57d051c%7c
> 72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=oIJwr0NoDWii2FwjznxG50y4uD%
> 2fQpDlqmSrWoCto%2bEQ%3d

Indeedy, I was notified by FOSDEM staff about this, and will note that the ASF 
has formally requested a stand at FOSDEM 2016.

Time will tell what sort of stand we'll get (how big etc), but we should plan 
ahead and _assume_ we'll get two tables (might get one, might get three, but 
let's assume two).

This will require 3-4 volunteers at most times (not to speak of endless amounts 
of swag to give away), so I would imagine we'd need at least double that in 
available people, so as to do it in shifts.

Depending on the number of projects that are interested in a presence at 
FOSDEM, we'll likely do a rotation, so that each project get N hours of fame at 
the stand. FOSDEM has notified us that they are really limited on space this 
time around, due to the huge interest in this from FOSS communities, so if we 
can help them by rotating a bit, that would work out for everyone. Having been 
to previous FOSDEMs, I can also say with some certainty, that you won't risk 
getting the "boring time slot", as the stands are pretty much always crowded.

With regards,
Daniel.

> 
> Earlier this year I think Jan setup a wiki page setup about it and 
> called for volunteers.
> 
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fcwiki
> .apache.org%2fconfluence%2fdisplay%2fCOMDEV%2fFOSDEM%2b2016=01%7c
> 01%7cRoss.Gardler%40microsoft.com%7c73e0bcd89e0c4f4cda1808d2c57d051c%7
> c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1=JF4cZeIaroWBdZ1ZkIaspbMMK8
> lbLctL6rB9tthZ1Nk%3d
> 
> I'd like to help so please can someone grant me karma to the Comdev 
> cwiki? (username is sharan)
> 
> Thanks
> Sharan
> 

RE: Passion and vigilance in open source

[Ross Gardler]

I reckon Jim is describing a different kind of pendulum (see my earlier essay - 
sorry I got on a roll with that one).

Jim's pendulum is something like:

Let a = autocratic open source governance (vendor owned/benevolent dictator)
Let b = meritocratic open source governance
Let c = fully distributed open source governance (GitHub style fork and forget 
- note not all GitHub projects are this style)

The interesting thing is that I don't think we are really at point c, I think 
we are really at point a. The numbers point to c but many rock-star projects 
are at point a. I'd argue that this goes hand in hand with my argument that 
open source is currently more about the business model than the development 
model. As with the other pendulum I believe this one will swing back towards 
the center as those companies realize that there is a glass ceiling to their 
growth using that model (if you haven't read Henrik Ingo's paper [1] on this 
you should).

Another interesting point about this spectrum is that while (if history 
repeats) there will be a swing past b and towards c this side of the swing is 
much shorter. I guess because any "fork and forget" projects that succeed will 
typically become either an autocratic or meritocratic project in order to scale.

As with my other pendulum thought experiment I believe we sit at the "sensible" 
place on that spectrum (point b). That isn't today it's the only place that can 
work, but that it is where it works for the Apache Way. I think plenty of 
people still do this for the fun (and education). Speaking personally a recent 
change in my dayjob role means that I'm coding for fun again - so that's at 
least one person going in the opposite direction to the one Jim sees is the 
majority (lucky me!)

Ross

[1] 
http://openlife.cc/blogs/2010/november/how-grow-your-open-source-project-10x-and-revenues-5x


-Original Message-
From: Jim Jagielski [mailto:j...@jagunet.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 7:01 PM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: Re: Passion and vigilance in open source

I would be OK with us getting older and forgetting the child-like wonder (but I 
don't think that's the case; well, we *are* getting older, but not forgetting 
the wonder), IF we were seeing the child-like wonder being continued, esp by 
the next gen.

Some see Github as "proof" that the wonder is still there; even if so, then 
it's a different kind of 'wonder' and one which is risky for the continuation 
of open source.

Wonder is not being able to fork a project, make some patches, submit a bunch 
of pull requests and then get a handful of them committed upstream... That is 
so solitary. The wonder is working *with* and collaborating *with* and 
reaching consensus
*with* a group of similarly-minded individuals towards a common goal. The 
wonder is the community. And I think that that is something which is at risk.

To me, Open Source provided an avenue that allowed coders (and other 
contributors) to finally work together, openly and honestly, transparently and 
meritocractically (if you get my meaning); it fostered sharing, but not by 
letting someone share our toys by playing with them by themselves in some 
corner of the sandbox. It was about us all sharing the toys to build a great 
sand castle all together in that sandbox, when before we couldn't.

Are people doing it for fun? Are people seeing the joy and wonder in our eyes? 
Or are people doing it just because "that's what I get paid to do"?

Good questions. Not simple answers :)

> On Sep 22, 2015, at 4:35 PM, Ted Dunning  wrote:
> 
> Jim,
> 
> Is that really happening?  Is the fun leaving?  Or is it we are all 
> just getting old and are forgetting the child-like wonder?
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 12:58 PM, Jim Jagielski  wrote:
> 
>> Some of you may know that I've started a Vlog series on Youtube 
>> around some topics I find interesting, mostly around open source.
>> 
>> My latest is about the risks around open source today where the fun 
>> and passion that used to exist around open source is drying up or 
>> being discounted. Since Apache is one of the still remaining oasis of 
>> open source being all about community and fun whilst still changing 
>> the world, I'd like to ask for some thoughts from the membership 
>> about their concerns, etc... that I can fold into the 2nd part of 
>> this mini-series.
>> 
>> If so, please contact me directly. I have set the Reply-To header 
>> accordingly.
>> 
>> Thx!
>> 

RE: new comer

[Ross Gardler]

Welcome,

Sounds like you haven’t found your way to the "Getting Involved" section of the 
Tomcat website? - http://tomcat.apache.org/getinvolved.html

Second sentence says "The first step is to join the mailing lists" - 
http://tomcat.apache.org/lists.html

Once you have joined the dev list then you can ask for further guidance there. 
Though make sure you read the above linked page before asking questions.

Hope this helps.

Ross

-Original Message-
From: abdelrazi salah [mailto:salah.t...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, September 20, 2015 10:45 AM
To: dev@community.apache.org
Subject: new comer

Hello,

I am Java developer want to contribute with Apache community but could not find 
out how even after reading the topics regarding this matter i am feeling lost 
don't know what should i do to start, I want to get involve in Tomcat project 
so what should I learn.

Thank you
Regards,
*Abdelrazik Salah*