Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[paul dove via EV]

Well it's been a long time since I watched the show so maybe these were bait 
cars that the police had installed transmitters in. 

I know they can do it through onstage and I have seen where hackers did it 
through the cars phone connections so if hackers can do it so can the 
manufacturer.

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 4, 2017, at 1:32 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 3 May 2017 at 10:28, paul dove via EV wrote:
>> 
>> All modern cars can be disabled. 
> 
> I read some years ago that GM had built this capability into Onstar, and 
> would use it at police request.  I haven't been able to determine whether 
> other automakers that use vehicle telematics include the same trick, though. 
> Maybe they do and they're just not owning up to it.
> 
> Security with a system like this is a big concern to the vehicle owner and 
> driver.  I'm not so sure it's as big a concern as it should be with the 
> automakers though, after reading reports of pirates being able to take 
> partial control of various vehicles.  
> 
> Come to that, wasn't there something about a security flaw in the Nissan 
> Leaf's system?
> 
> Ah, here it is:
> 
> https://transportevolved.com/2016/02/24/major-security-flaw-with-
> nissanconnect-ev-telematics-system-means-hackers-can-access-your-leaf-
> electric-car-with-just-its-vin/
> 
> (Ugh, what a URL.)  https://v.gd/oDmbG9
> 
> I guess Nissan's PR folks say it's fixed now. 
> 
> In the case of a Ford with "sync" I think you could secure your vehicle just 
> by turning off your mobile phone, or not pairing it with the car in the 
> first place.
> 
> Presumably, if you disable your telematics system, that way or by unplu  
> gging the mobile antenna, you lose the ability to have the EV find a charger 
> for you.  You might have to actually break out your mobile phone and search, 
> eh?  Or do what conversion EV drivers have always done: plan ahead.
> 
>> I see them do it in cops all the time.
> 
> Are we talking about a television program here?  How reliable is that?  
> (That's NOT a rhetorical question.  I don't know very much about television, 
> and don't even own a set.  However I've read that a fair amount of, if not 
> most, "reality" televsion is staged.)
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
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Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 3 May 2017 at 10:28, paul dove via EV wrote:

> All modern cars can be disabled. 

I read some years ago that GM had built this capability into Onstar, and 
would use it at police request.  I haven't been able to determine whether 
other automakers that use vehicle telematics include the same trick, though. 
Maybe they do and they're just not owning up to it.

Security with a system like this is a big concern to the vehicle owner and 
driver.  I'm not so sure it's as big a concern as it should be with the 
automakers though, after reading reports of pirates being able to take 
partial control of various vehicles.  

Come to that, wasn't there something about a security flaw in the Nissan 
Leaf's system?

Ah, here it is:

https://transportevolved.com/2016/02/24/major-security-flaw-with-
nissanconnect-ev-telematics-system-means-hackers-can-access-your-leaf-
electric-car-with-just-its-vin/

(Ugh, what a URL.)  https://v.gd/oDmbG9

I guess Nissan's PR folks say it's fixed now. 

In the case of a Ford with "sync" I think you could secure your vehicle just 
by turning off your mobile phone, or not pairing it with the car in the 
first place.

Presumably, if you disable your telematics system, that way or by unplu  
gging the mobile antenna, you lose the ability to have the EV find a charger 
for you.  You might have to actually break out your mobile phone and search, 
eh?  Or do what conversion EV drivers have always done: plan ahead.

> I see them do it in cops all the time.

Are we talking about a television program here?  How reliable is that?  
(That's NOT a rhetorical question.  I don't know very much about television, 
and don't even own a set.  However I've read that a fair amount of, if not 
most, "reality" televsion is staged.)

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
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email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[paul dove via EV]

All modern cars can be disabled. I see them do it in cops all the time.

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 2, 2017, at 4:44 PM, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:
> 
> Simple, that is exactly the difference between a service and a property.
> How much did you pay for the purchase of your credit card?
> 
> If you could get your car for free and only pay a certain amount
> afterwards for what you used,
> Then it would be pretty fair to give the real owner of the car the right
> to terminate its use when needed
> (like canceling a credit card)
> That is why I gave the example of a Rental Center, who is interested in
> maintaining control over *their* cars.
> 
> But allowing someone else to disable *your* property is not always a
> comforting thought,
> Unless you have a guarantee that it will only happen with your approval,
> Such as in case your car is stolen and you can request the manufacturer
> to disable it,
> Very similar to some cell phones that can be remotely bricked when
> stolen.
> 
> Hope this clarifies,
> Cor.
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Rush Dougherty
> via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 1:02 PM
> To: 'EVDL Administrator'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.
> 
> Interesting comment...  I guess David doesn't have any credit cards,
> because they are constantly monitored every time you use them and can be
> stopped anytime, and I guess David doesn't have a cell phone, because
> they are monitored constantly and can be cut off anytime. But David does
> use the internet, which is monitored constantly and can be cut off
> anytime.
> 
> Rush Dougherty
> Tucson AZ 85719
> 
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL 
>> Administrator
> via EV
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 12:31 PM
>> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.
>> 
>>> On 2 May 2017 at 11:58, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>>> 
>>> And, if Tesla suspects any foul play, they can instantly disable a 
>>> Tesla ...
>> 
>> This, and the creepy constant monitoring, are the main reasons I will 
>> never
> buy a Tesla.
>> NEVER.
>> 
>> You don't ever really own your Tesla, you're just borrowing it from 
>> your dad
> Elon.
>> 
>> It's a darn shame.  The Tesla is a great accomplishment. I know that 
>> some
> folks are fine with
>> the spying and control -- even welcome it.  Others don't notice or
> care.
> Great, go for it.  For
>> me, nope nope nope nope nope no way.
>> 
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> EVDL Administrator
>> 
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
> Information:
>> http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
>> = = = =
> = = =
>> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> 
>> To send
> a private
>> message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
> http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> 
>> 
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> 
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Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[paul dove via EV]

They are locked by virtue of the fact you would have to hack it to use it. It's 
locked technologically. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 2, 2017, at 9:58 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV  wrote:
> 
> My car is locked. Superchargers aren't.  You could try but now that you 
> mention it I guess I should make a sign.  Lawrence Rhodes
> 
>  From: John Neiswanger 
> To: Lawrence Rhodes ; EVDL  
> Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 7:50 AM
> Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.
> 
> So by this logic if I can figure out a "hack" I could take your car 
> since it doesn't have a sign saying "don't take my car" or "for Lawrence 
> only"?
> 
> I also think I read that the Tesla chargers actually "read" the VIN 
> number as part of the connection communications.  It must have something 
> like that since the newer ones only get a limited amount of charge per 
> year for "free".
> 
> respectfully,
> John
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
> To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 
> 
> Sent: 5/2/2017 7:34:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.
> 
>> If the car talks the the charger it should be able to dictate the flow 
>> of electrons.  If someone comes up with the device maybe Tesla will 
>> change it's policy.  It's more of a challenge rather than stealing 
>> electricity.  That being said I never thought of the stealing aspect.  
>> The III is upcoming and will pay for power.  I'd love to utilize a 
>> Supercharger.  It would make a cross country trip more possible. I work 
>> for EVRUS.  We welcome any kind of electric car that can plug to 
>> Chademo.  Currently we service Nissan, Kia & Tesla...or any Chademo 
>> ready vehicle you can't steal from us unless you can hack our system.  
>> For Tesla it's a matter of plugging in as no adapter is yet 
>> available(that we know of)for other vehicles.  So is it stealing if no 
>> sign says Tesla only.  In some cases Tesla spots can be ICED.  They 
>> sometimes can't be legally towed. So unless there is a posting saying 
>> no vehicles other than Tesla is it stealing?Lawrence Rhodes
>> 
>>   From: robert winfield 
>>   To: Lawrence Rhodes ; "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
>> ; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 
>> ; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
>> 
>>   Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 6:12 AM
>>   Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.
>> 
>> Is this post seriously for real? Hacking a supercharger that puts out 
>> over 120kW @ 400+V at roughly 300 amps
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Who wants to be the first "krispy critter"? really good advertising for 
>> the EV community.
>> really folks, a TINY bit of thought please
>> 
>> 
>>   From: Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
>>   To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ; 
>> "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 
>>   Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 8:50 AM
>>   Subject: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.
>> 
>> There is an adapter for Chademo to charge a Tesla.  Does anyone think 
>> it can be done in reverse?  Could the supercharger be fooled into 
>> thinking it was charging a tiny tiny battery pack or a Tesla almost 
>> full?  I suspect the Supercharger will look at the car and see the 
>> truth and reject the charge but you never know what a hacker can do 
>> until it's done.  Lawrence Rhodes
>> -- next part --
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
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> 
> 
> 
> -- next part --
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Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[Rush Dougherty via EV]

Nothing 'snarky' at all David. Just pointing out that the reason you stated for
not buying a Tesla is pretty pointless in today's age of information exchange.
Which I might add is going to get worse with the new Internet deregulations
being signed into place.

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ, 85719


> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 3:43 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.
>
> On 2 May 2017 at 13:02, Rush Dougherty via EV wrote:
>
> > I guess David doesn't have any credit cards ... cell phone ... use the
> > internet ...
>
> I don't get why Rush is being snarky here, but I'll give a simple, civil
> response: I have little enough privacy already, without choosing to give up
more.
>
> I won't get into further detail, since we'd probably get off topic pretty
quickly.  Howe er, if Rush
> or anyone else is sincere and wants to discuss this issue  constructively,
you're welcome to
> email me offlist.  My private address is at the bottom of the EVDL help page:
>
> http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#supt
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information:
> http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.  To send
a private
> message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[Lee Hart via EV]

Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

Simple, that is exactly the difference between a service and a property. How
much did you pay for the purchase of your credit card?

If you could get your car for free and only pay a certain amount afterwards
for what you used, then it would be pretty fair to give the real owner of the
car the right to terminate its use when needed (like canceling a credit
card)

But allowing someone else to disable *your* property is not always a
comforting thought, Unless you have a guarantee that it will only happen with
your approval,


Exactly my thoughts.

I have a deep distrust of companies that pretend to "sell" things that in fact
have strings attached... strings that they can pull any time they like to
disable it for any reason THEY decide is in their interest (and not mine).

If they're going to loan/rent/lease an item, that needs to be made completely
clear up-front (and be priced accordingly). Otherwise, it's deceptive or even
fraudulent.
--
Obsolete (Ob-so-LETE). Adjective. 1. Something that is simple,
reliable, straightforward, readily available, easy to use, and
affordable. 2. Not what the salesman wants you to buy.
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 2 May 2017 at 13:02, Rush Dougherty via EV wrote:

> I guess David doesn't have any credit cards ... cell phone ... use the
> internet ...

I don't get why Rush is being snarky here, but I'll give a simple, civil 
response: I have little enough privacy already, without choosing to give up 
more.

I won't get into further detail, since we'd probably get off topic pretty 
quickly.  Howe er, if Rush or anyone else is sincere and wants to discuss 
this issue  constructively, you're welcome to email me offlist.  My private 
address is at the bottom of the EVDL help page:

http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Simple, that is exactly the difference between a service and a property.
How much did you pay for the purchase of your credit card?

If you could get your car for free and only pay a certain amount
afterwards for what you used,
Then it would be pretty fair to give the real owner of the car the right
to terminate its use when needed
(like canceling a credit card)
That is why I gave the example of a Rental Center, who is interested in
maintaining control over *their* cars.

But allowing someone else to disable *your* property is not always a
comforting thought,
Unless you have a guarantee that it will only happen with your approval,
Such as in case your car is stolen and you can request the manufacturer
to disable it,
Very similar to some cell phones that can be remotely bricked when
stolen.

Hope this clarifies,
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Rush Dougherty
via EV
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 1:02 PM
To: 'EVDL Administrator'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List'
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

Interesting comment...  I guess David doesn't have any credit cards,
because they are constantly monitored every time you use them and can be
stopped anytime, and I guess David doesn't have a cell phone, because
they are monitored constantly and can be cut off anytime. But David does
use the internet, which is monitored constantly and can be cut off
anytime.

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719


> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL 
> Administrator
via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 12:31 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.
>
> On 2 May 2017 at 11:58, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>
> > And, if Tesla suspects any foul play, they can instantly disable a 
> > Tesla ...
>
> This, and the creepy constant monitoring, are the main reasons I will 
> never
buy a Tesla.
> NEVER.
>
> You don't ever really own your Tesla, you're just borrowing it from 
> your dad
Elon.
>
> It's a darn shame.  The Tesla is a great accomplishment. I know that 
> some
folks are fine with
> the spying and control -- even welcome it.  Others don't notice or
care.
Great, go for it.  For
> me, nope nope nope nope nope no way.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
Information:
> http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> = = = =
= = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.

> To send
a private
> message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[Rush Dougherty via EV]

Interesting comment...  I guess David doesn't have any credit cards, because
they are constantly monitored every time you use them and can be stopped
anytime, and I guess David doesn't have a cell phone, because they are monitored
constantly and can be cut off anytime. But David does use the internet, which is
monitored constantly and can be cut off anytime.

Rush Dougherty
Tucson AZ 85719


> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator
via EV
> Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 12:31 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.
>
> On 2 May 2017 at 11:58, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:
>
> > And, if Tesla suspects any foul play, they can instantly disable a
> > Tesla ...
>
> This, and the creepy constant monitoring, are the main reasons I will never
buy a Tesla.
> NEVER.
>
> You don't ever really own your Tesla, you're just borrowing it from your dad
Elon.
>
> It's a darn shame.  The Tesla is a great accomplishment. I know that some
folks are fine with
> the spying and control -- even welcome it.  Others don't notice or care.
Great, go for it.  For
> me, nope nope nope nope nope no way.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information:
> http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.  To send
a private
> message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Actually, I mis-remembered.
I checked Otmar's  blog and saw that his "Wreckla" is not disabled
And he should be able to continue to build his "StretchLa" bus,
But Tesla is not allowing him to purchase any of their spare parts for his car,
So he is limited to buying salvage parts from dismantlers.
Just to set the record straight on my earlier comment.
(I am quite sure that Tesla *could* disable a car, but I would hope
Such drastic measures are only used in case of a stolen vehicle)
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Cor van de Water via EV
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 11:58 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

Lawrence,
I think the FAQ you quoted explains pretty well that the Supercharging network 
communicates constantly with the car in order to charge:
"Your vehicle and the Superchargers communicate to select the appropriate 
charging rate for your car. Supercharging rate may vary due to battery charge 
level, current use of the Supercharger station and extreme climate conditions. 
Your vehicle charges faster when the battery is at a lower state of charge and 
charging slows down as it fills up."

So, in order for you to use a Supercharger with your non-Tesla vehicle, you 
must:
- elude people who might call Tesla when they see a non-Tesla parked that is 
"blocking" their Supercharger
- elude the Supercharging network to make it think you plug in a qualifying 
(Tesla) vehicle.
The latter probably requires all of the following:
- Use Tesla proprietary hardware
  (this is not just the BMS and the plug, but also the communication with the 
Supercharging network, so you'd need the guts of a lot of a Tesla vehicle. 
Since it is unknown what interlocks there are between computers in a Tesla, you 
might need essentially all of a Tesla's computers for it to work)
- Tesla thinks this is a registered Tesla or other qualifying Supercharger car 
(are there non-Tesla's allowed?)
   (This makes it exceedingly difficult to use the guts of a crashed Tesla 
unless you can keep that crash well hidden from Tesla - not likely due to the 
constant communication between car and the Tesla systems)
- Tesla's network identifies the car's position as physically at the location 
of the Supercharger
- Tesla's network might question the health of your battery if your charging is 
significantly different than it expects from the Tesla model that you pretend 
it is.
- Tesla has an active account for this car to bill for Supercharging And, if 
Tesla suspects any foul play, they can instantly disable a Tesla if it is not 
up their safety standards, as Otmar experienced when he bought a crashed Model 
S to use its drivetrain as basis for a bus, so he patched up the S to drive it 
on the street, ordered some parts only to have Tesla disable the vehicle since 
it was not being repaired at a qualified shop...

BTW, regarding the guy that was plugging into a 110 outlet at a park, if I 
remember he was acting "entitled" (as a jerk) and was told he was not welcome 
to plug in and yet he went back and did exactly that again and after hours, so 
IIRC he was cited for trespassing, not for plugging in (although he did not 
have approval to plug in, the biggest issue was that he was told he was not to 
be there at that time and he refused to leave - that has nothing to do with 
illegal plugging in.) Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 8:54 AM
To: John Neiswanger; EVDL
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

It seems to me there are plenty of loopholes in which to possibly be able to 
use the Tesla super charger system.  You need an account to pay so it won't be 
stealing. Some hacked software and hardware. Probably from a wrecked Tesla. So 
proceed at your own risk.   

Support1. Ordering2. Delivery
3. Owners
4. Forums
Supercharging



The Supercharger network enables long distance travel. Stations are 
strategically placed to minimize stops and are conveniently located near 
desirable amenities like restaurants, shops and WiFi hot spots. Each station 
contains multiple Superchargers to get you back on the road quickly.
Below are additional program details which apply to Model S and X ordered after 
January 15, 2017.

* 400 kWh (~1,000 miles) of Supercharger credits are awarded annually.
* For usage above the complimentary annual credits provided, a small fee 
applies.
* In North America, pricing is fixed within each state or province. 
Internationally, pricing is fixed within each country. All prices include taxes 
and fees.
* Where possible, owners are billed per kWh (kilowatt-hour), which is the 
most fair and simple method. In other areas, we bill for the service per minute.
* When billing per minute, there are two tiers to account for changes in 
charging 

Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[Alan Brinkman via EV]

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator via 
EV
Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 12:31 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

On 2 May 2017 at 11:58, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

>> And, if Tesla suspects any foul play, they can instantly disable a 
>> Tesla ...

>This, and the creepy constant monitoring, are the main reasons I will never 
>buy a Tesla.  NEVER.  

>You don't ever really own your Tesla, you're just borrowing it from your dad 
>Elon.

>It's a darn shame.  The Tesla is a great accomplishment. I know that some 
>folks are fine with the spying and control -- even welcome it.  Others don't 
>notice or care.  Great, go for it.  For me, nope nope nope nope nope no way.

>David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: 
http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
= =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.  To send 
a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage 
http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Tesla, with big brother looking over my shoulder, have to pay a dealer to 
unlock everything, nope nope nope.
Even the Jolt put out by General Murders I don't need in Corrupticut.
Sheeple should get a mind of their own.
An electric car needs a true 'stench cord to charge the badderies in 'em.
Get an old Volkswagen, throw in a DC motor and plenty of lead acid badderies. 
Fix it yourself, don't rely on a dealer.
--The ghost of Bob Rice

(I miss hearing from Bob Rice. Yeah, if you got the $$$, a Tesla is pretty 
cool. I'm more of a Volkswagon guy. Maybe they'll make a TeslaWagon one day? 
Alan)
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Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[Cor van de Water via EV]

None of my vehicles has any communication to anyone, except to the door
key FOB.
It can come in handy and I do understand Rental centers who want to be
able to get  GPS location from their cars to see where they are when
they are "lost". For a manufacturer to earn the trust that he will
always act in the best interest of the customer (as Tesla has
overwhelmingly done in almost every instance they had to make a
judgement call) it has enormous benefits to be aware of the performance
of their cars and get early  warning signs of trouble - for example a
Tesla can have multiple cell failures in their battery pack without the
customer ever noticing anything amiss, but the BMS will report home that
it is seeing increasingly unbalance and must reduce the total capacity
of the pack, so Tesla can schedule you for a swap even before you notice
that you no longer have full range from your pack...
But then there are the issues that pop up such as should Tesla limit the
number of times that you can engage launch mode or take off in "insane"
acceleration?
They did and after outcry, it was quickly reversed...
There are always two sides to a coin. If one is not acceptable, you also
have to surrender the other side.
Everyone gets to pick based on what they find acceptable and desirable.

BTW, most my cars are old and that is the reason they have no
communication: 1994 Chevy S10 (US Electricar conversion) and MY
2001-2002-2005 Prius, but also 2011 and 2012 Leaf which have not
received the TCU update, so their 2G communication is no longer
supported. They still receive GPS position for navigation so that is a
nice feature.
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL
Administrator via EV
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 12:31 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

On 2 May 2017 at 11:58, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

> And, if Tesla suspects any foul play, they can instantly disable a 
> Tesla ...

This, and the creepy constant monitoring, are the main reasons I will
never buy a Tesla.  NEVER.  

You don't ever really own your Tesla, you're just borrowing it from your
dad Elon.

It's a darn shame.  The Tesla is a great accomplishment. I know that
some folks are fine with the spying and control -- even welcome it.
Others don't notice or care.  Great, go for it.  For me, nope nope nope
nope nope no way.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the
webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 2 May 2017 at 11:58, Cor van de Water via EV wrote:

> And, if Tesla suspects any foul play, they can instantly disable a
> Tesla ... 

This, and the creepy constant monitoring, are the main reasons I will never 
buy a Tesla.  NEVER.  

You don't ever really own your Tesla, you're just borrowing it from your dad 
Elon.

It's a darn shame.  The Tesla is a great accomplishment. I know that some 
folks are fine with the spying and control -- even welcome it.  Others don't 
notice or care.  Great, go for it.  For me, nope nope nope nope nope no way.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Lawrence,
I think the FAQ you quoted explains pretty well that the Supercharging network 
communicates constantly with the car in order to charge:
"Your vehicle and the Superchargers communicate to select the appropriate 
charging rate for your car. Supercharging rate may vary due to battery charge 
level, current use of the Supercharger station and extreme climate conditions. 
Your vehicle charges faster when the battery is at a lower state of charge and 
charging slows down as it fills up."

So, in order for you to use a Supercharger with your non-Tesla vehicle, you 
must:
- elude people who might call Tesla when they see a non-Tesla parked that is 
"blocking" their Supercharger
- elude the Supercharging network to make it think you plug in a qualifying 
(Tesla) vehicle.
The latter probably requires all of the following:
- Use Tesla proprietary hardware
  (this is not just the BMS and the plug, but also the communication with the 
Supercharging network, so you'd need the guts of a lot of a Tesla vehicle. 
Since it is unknown what interlocks there are between computers in a Tesla, you 
might need essentially all of a Tesla's computers for it to work)
- Tesla thinks this is a registered Tesla or other qualifying Supercharger car 
(are there non-Tesla's allowed?)
   (This makes it exceedingly difficult to use the guts of a crashed Tesla 
unless you can keep that crash well hidden from Tesla - not likely due to the 
constant communication between car and the Tesla systems)
- Tesla's network identifies the car's position as physically at the location 
of the Supercharger
- Tesla's network might question the health of your battery if your charging is 
significantly different than it expects from the Tesla model that you pretend 
it is.
- Tesla has an active account for this car to bill for Supercharging
And, if Tesla suspects any foul play, they can instantly disable a Tesla if it 
is not up their safety standards, as Otmar experienced when he bought a crashed 
Model S to use its drivetrain as basis for a bus, so he patched up the S to 
drive it on the street, ordered some parts only to have Tesla disable the 
vehicle since it was not being repaired at a qualified shop...

BTW, regarding the guy that was plugging into a 110 outlet at a park, if I 
remember he was acting "entitled" (as a jerk) and was told he was not welcome 
to plug in and yet he went back and did exactly that again and after hours, so 
IIRC he was cited for trespassing, not for plugging in (although he did not 
have approval to plug in, the biggest issue was that he was told he was not to 
be there at that time and he refused to leave - that has nothing to do with 
illegal plugging in.)
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes via EV
Sent: Tuesday, May 02, 2017 8:54 AM
To: John Neiswanger; EVDL
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

It seems to me there are plenty of loopholes in which to possibly be able to 
use the Tesla super charger system.  You need an account to pay so it won't be 
stealing. Some hacked software and hardware. Probably from a wrecked Tesla. So 
proceed at your own risk.   

Support1. Ordering2. Delivery
3. Owners
4. Forums
Supercharging



The Supercharger network enables long distance travel. Stations are 
strategically placed to minimize stops and are conveniently located near 
desirable amenities like restaurants, shops and WiFi hot spots. Each station 
contains multiple Superchargers to get you back on the road quickly.
Below are additional program details which apply to Model S and X ordered after 
January 15, 2017.

* 400 kWh (~1,000 miles) of Supercharger credits are awarded annually.
* For usage above the complimentary annual credits provided, a small fee 
applies.
* In North America, pricing is fixed within each state or province. 
Internationally, pricing is fixed within each country. All prices include taxes 
and fees.
* Where possible, owners are billed per kWh (kilowatt-hour), which is the 
most fair and simple method. In other areas, we bill for the service per minute.
* When billing per minute, there are two tiers to account for changes in 
charging speeds, called “tier 1” and “tier 2”.
* Tier 1 applies while cars are charging at or below 60 kW and tier 2 
applies while cars are charging above 60 kW. Tier 1 is half the cost of tier 2.
* Tier 1 also applies anytime your vehicle is sharing Supercharger power 
with another car.
* Supercharger pricing information may be viewed on the 17” touchscreen and 
is summarized below.
Supercharging is simple and convenient—just plug in and charge up. 
Supercharging history is automatically populated in your website account 
showing the credits used or, if applicable, the amount billed. Tesla is 
committed to ensuring that Supercharger will never be a profit center.

Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

It seems to me there are plenty of loopholes in which to possibly be able to 
use the Tesla super charger system.  You need an account to pay so it won't be 
stealing. Some hacked software and hardware. Probably from a wrecked Tesla. So 
proceed at your own risk.   

Support1. Ordering2. Delivery
3. Owners
4. Forums
Supercharging



The Supercharger network enables long distance travel. Stations are 
strategically placed to minimize stops and are conveniently located near 
desirable amenities like restaurants, shops and WiFi hot spots. Each station 
contains multiple Superchargers to get you back on the road quickly.
Below are additional program details which apply to Model S and X ordered after 
January 15, 2017.

* 400 kWh (~1,000 miles) of Supercharger credits are awarded annually.
* For usage above the complimentary annual credits provided, a small fee 
applies.
* In North America, pricing is fixed within each state or province. 
Internationally, pricing is fixed within each country. All prices include taxes 
and fees.
* Where possible, owners are billed per kWh (kilowatt-hour), which is the 
most fair and simple method. In other areas, we bill for the service per minute.
* When billing per minute, there are two tiers to account for changes in 
charging speeds, called “tier 1” and “tier 2”.
* Tier 1 applies while cars are charging at or below 60 kW and tier 2 
applies while cars are charging above 60 kW. Tier 1 is half the cost of tier 2.
* Tier 1 also applies anytime your vehicle is sharing Supercharger power 
with another car.
* Supercharger pricing information may be viewed on the 17” touchscreen and 
is summarized below.
Supercharging is simple and convenient—just plug in and charge up. 
Supercharging history is automatically populated in your website account 
showing the credits used or, if applicable, the amount billed. Tesla is 
committed to ensuring that Supercharger will never be a profit center.
AlabamaArizonaCaliforniaColoradoConnecticutDelawareFloridaGeorgiaIdahoIllinoisIndianaIowaKansasKentuckyLouisianaMaineMarylandMassachusettsMinnesotaMichiganMississippiMissouriMontanaNebraskaNevadaNew
 HampshireNew JerseyNew MexicoNew YorkNorth 
CarolinaOhioOklahomaOregonPennsylvaniaRhode IslandSouth CarolinaSouth 
DakotaTennesseeTexasUtahVermontVirginiaWashingtonWest VirginiaWisconsinWyoming

$0.20 per kWh


Frequently Asked Questions

If I don't use my 400 kWh of annual credits will they roll over to the next 
year?
Unused credits do not roll over to the next year. Credits are reset to 400 kWh 
each year, on the anniversary of the delivery date. If the car transfers 
ownership, credits are reset on the date of the transfer.
How are customers billed if they use all of their free annual credits? 
Customers are billed automatically via a credit card linked to their website 
account. After each Supercharger session, customers can view the session 
details online. Supercharger history and downloadable invoices may also be 
viewed online. For more details, see our Payment Terms for Services.
Why do some locations bill per kWh and some per minute?
Tesla believes that owners should pay for energy delivered to the vehicle and 
therefore we price the service on a per kilowatt-hour (kWh) basis for the 
global network. In some regions, regulations and requirements make it difficult 
for companies that are not utilities to sell electricity for vehicle charging 
per kWh. In these places, we offer the Supercharger service at a per minute 
price, with two tiers to account for the dynamic charge rate.
I thought Supercharging was free. Why do I have to pay now? 
If your Tesla was ordered by January 15, 2017, it comes with free Supercharger 
access for the life of the car. You will not pay for Supercharger use but idle 
fees may be assessed if your vehicle remains connected to a Supercharger after 
the charge session is complete.
How much does Supercharging cost Tesla? 
Our costs vary based on both operational and electricity costs but 
Supercharging is offered to our customers below the price that it costs us to 
provide the service. Similar to our Service Centers, this will not be a profit 
center for Tesla.
Where are the current and upcoming Supercharger stations? 
Superchargers enable long distance travel and are conveniently located along 
the most popular routes in North America, Europe and Asia. Additional stations 
will open throughout the year. Please refer to the projected Supercharger map 
for current and upcoming stations. To find the station nearest you, visit our 
interactive map. 
How do I use the Supercharger Network?
Simply park and plug in your vehicle using the connector at the Supercharger 
post. Once plugged in, the vehicle's charge port will flash green to indicate 
that charging has started. You can monitor charging progress on your instrument 
panel or Tesla App. 
How should I plan a trip using Superchargers?
Built-in Trip Planner automatically 

Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> I'm pretty serious.  What is the worst that could happen? ...[from
> stealing Tesla electricity]...

Not much other than the clear demonstration of the loss of integrity,
honesty and civility we see rising in America...

-
  From: robert winfield 
 To: Lawrence Rhodes ; "ev@lists.evdl.org"
; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 
 Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 7:56 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

bart simpson defense
"i didn't do it"nobody saw me"you can't prove it I'm sure you spoke
accidentally and don't mean anything you said, and it was all in jest

  From: Lawrence Rhodes 
 To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org"

 Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 10:34 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

If the car talks the the charger it should be able to dictate the flow of
electrons.  If someone comes up with the device maybe Tesla will change it's
policy.  It's more of a challenge rather than stealing electricity.  That
being said I never thought of the stealing aspect.  The III is upcoming and
will pay for power.  I'd love to utilize a Supercharger.  It would make a
cross country trip more possible. I work for EVRUS.  We welcome any kind of
electric car that can plug to Chademo.  Currently we service Nissan, Kia &
Tesla...or any Chademo ready vehicle you can't steal from us unless you can
hack our system.  For Tesla it's a matter of plugging in as no adapter is
yet available(that we know of)for other vehicles.  So is it stealing if no
sign says Tesla only.  In some cases Tesla spots can be ICED.  They
sometimes can't be legally towed. So unless there is a posting saying no
vehicles other than Tesla is it stealing?Lawrence Rhodes

  From: robert winfield 
 To: Lawrence Rhodes ; "ev@lists.evdl.org"
; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org"
; Electric Vehicle Discussion List

 Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 6:12 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

Is this post seriously for real? Hacking a supercharger that puts out over
120kW @ 400+V at roughly 300 amps



Who wants to be the first "krispy critter"? really good advertising for the
EV community.
really folks, a TINY bit of thought please


  From: Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
 To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org"

 Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 8:50 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

There is an adapter for Chademo to charge a Tesla.  Does anyone think it can
be done in reverse?  Could the supercharger be fooled into thinking it was
charging a tiny tiny battery pack or a Tesla almost full?  I suspect the
Supercharger will look at the car and see the truth and reject the charge
but you never know what a hacker can do until it's done.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[Jay Summet via EV]

On 05/02/2017 11:12 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV wrote:

On 2 May 2017 at 9:05, Collin Kidder via EV wrote:



It does seem like a shame and a waste to have all those chargers and not
make them available to the entire EV community.


Yes it is a shame, but it is a good competitive advantage for Tesla.

Since they had the foresight to foresee the utility of a supercharger 
network for long range electric vehicles, and paid for them, I can't 
fault them for wanting to keep the competitive advantage.


Jay
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Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[John Neiswanger via EV]

If they aren't locked then why do I need to hack them to get them to 
work?  My car doesn't have a cut metal key but an electronic key, I 
still consider the Tesla supercharger as being locked, just by an 
electronic key.


respectfully,
John

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
To: "EVDL" 
Sent: 5/2/2017 7:58:17 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

My car is locked. Superchargers aren't.  You could try but now that you 
mention it I guess I should make a sign.  Lawrence Rhodes


  From: John Neiswanger 
 To: Lawrence Rhodes ; EVDL 


 Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 7:50 AM
 Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

So by this logic if I can figure out a "hack" I could take your car
since it doesn't have a sign saying "don't take my car" or "for 
Lawrence

only"?

I also think I read that the Tesla chargers actually "read" the VIN
number as part of the connection communications.  It must have 
something

like that since the newer ones only get a limited amount of charge per
year for "free".

respectfully,
John

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ; 
"ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org"


Sent: 5/2/2017 7:34:50 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.


If the car talks the the charger it should be able to dictate the flow
of electrons.  If someone comes up with the device maybe Tesla will
change it's policy.  It's more of a challenge rather than stealing
electricity.  That being said I never thought of the stealing aspect.
The III is upcoming and will pay for power.  I'd love to utilize a
Supercharger.  It would make a cross country trip more possible. I 
work

for EVRUS.  We welcome any kind of electric car that can plug to
Chademo.  Currently we service Nissan, Kia & Tesla...or any Chademo
ready vehicle you can't steal from us unless you can hack our system.
For Tesla it's a matter of plugging in as no adapter is yet
available(that we know of)for other vehicles.  So is it stealing if no
sign says Tesla only.  In some cases Tesla spots can be ICED.  They
sometimes can't be legally towed. So unless there is a posting saying
no vehicles other than Tesla is it stealing?Lawrence Rhodes

  From: robert winfield 
  To: Lawrence Rhodes ; 
"ev@lists.evdl.org"

; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org"
; Electric Vehicle Discussion List

  Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 6:12 AM
  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

Is this post seriously for real? Hacking a supercharger that puts out
over 120kW @ 400+V at roughly 300 amps



Who wants to be the first "krispy critter"? really good advertising 
for

the EV community.
really folks, a TINY bit of thought please


  From: Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
  To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ;
"ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 
  Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 8:50 AM
  Subject: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

There is an adapter for Chademo to charge a Tesla.  Does anyone think
it can be done in reverse?  Could the supercharger be fooled into
thinking it was charging a tiny tiny battery pack or a Tesla almost
full?  I suspect the Supercharger will look at the car and see the
truth and reject the charge but you never know what a hacker can do
until it's done.  Lawrence Rhodes
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Please 

Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 2 May 2017 at 9:05, Collin Kidder via EV wrote:

> Doing so is likely to be seen as theft (of electricity). 

Here's some totally uninformed speculation.  Anyone who knows otherwise, 
please correct me.  

A Tesla is like an ankle bracelet that you drive, always connected to the 
net, reporting to Tesla on your movements and the car's state.  Tesla no 
longer includes unlimited charging in the original price of the car, yes? So 
wouldn't you think that Tesla's charger must have some way to determine 
whether any given Tesla is allowed to use them for free?

Thus I'd be very surprised if the chargers don't read the car's VIN, check 
with Tesla, and log the transaction, before they allow the charge to begin.. 
Since Tesla (presumably) always knows where every car is, it could also 
check to see where it had last seen that car ID, and whether that was 
consistent with the charging request.  It could also check other data for 
consistency -- last known accumulated mileage, last known state of charge, 
and so on.

So you probably couldn't just feed the charger some random VIN.  Spoofing a 
particular known VIN or even choosing from a list of known VINs probably 
wouldn't work either.  And as Collin pointed out, unless you were 
successfully spoofing a new car's VIN that didn't include the charging in 
the purchase price, you'd be stealing anyway.  Even then, I suspect Tesla 
woudn't look very approvingly on what you were doing.

It does seem like a shame and a waste to have all those chargers and not 
make them available to the entire EV community.  Imagine what it'd be like 
today if Ford, Chevrolet, and Chrysler had done that -- each built filling 
stations that would work with only THEIR cars.  Heck, maybe what are now the 
"big three" would be the bit players, and most of us would be driving 
Edisons, Galvanis, and Voltas that could plug in and charge anywhere!

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

I'm pretty serious.  What is the worst that could happen?  One man was charged 
with theft a few years ago for plugging in his Leaf at a 110v outlet at a park. 
 Barney Fife on duty.  Lawrence Rhodes

  From: robert winfield 
 To: Lawrence Rhodes ; "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org"  
 Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 7:56 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.
   
bart simpson defense
"i didn't do it"nobody saw me"you can't prove it
I'm sure you spoke accidentally and don't mean anything you said, and it was 
all in jest

  From: Lawrence Rhodes 
 To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 
 
 Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 10:34 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.
  
If the car talks the the charger it should be able to dictate the flow of 
electrons.  If someone comes up with the device maybe Tesla will change it's 
policy.  It's more of a challenge rather than stealing electricity.  That being 
said I never thought of the stealing aspect.  The III is upcoming and will pay 
for power.  I'd love to utilize a Supercharger.  It would make a cross country 
trip more possible. I work for EVRUS.  We welcome any kind of electric car that 
can plug to Chademo.  Currently we service Nissan, Kia & Tesla...or any Chademo 
ready vehicle you can't steal from us unless you can hack our system.  For 
Tesla it's a matter of plugging in as no adapter is yet available(that we know 
of)for other vehicles.  So is it stealing if no sign says Tesla only.  In some 
cases Tesla spots can be ICED.  They sometimes can't be legally towed. So 
unless there is a posting saying no vehicles other than Tesla is it stealing?   
 Lawrence Rhodes

  From: robert winfield 
 To: Lawrence Rhodes ; "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" ; 
Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 6:12 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.
  
Is this post seriously for real? Hacking a supercharger that puts out over 
120kW @ 400+V at roughly 300 amps



Who wants to be the first "krispy critter"? really good advertising for the EV 
community.
really folks, a TINY bit of thought please


  From: Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
 To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 
 
 Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 8:50 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.
  
There is an adapter for Chademo to charge a Tesla.  Does anyone think it can be 
done in reverse?  Could the supercharger be fooled into thinking it was 
charging a tiny tiny battery pack or a Tesla almost full?  I suspect the 
Supercharger will look at the car and see the truth and reject the charge but 
you never know what a hacker can do until it's done.  Lawrence Rhodes 
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Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

My car is locked. Superchargers aren't.  You could try but now that you mention 
it I guess I should make a sign.  Lawrence Rhodes

  From: John Neiswanger 
 To: Lawrence Rhodes ; EVDL  
 Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 7:50 AM
 Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.
   
So by this logic if I can figure out a "hack" I could take your car 
since it doesn't have a sign saying "don't take my car" or "for Lawrence 
only"?

I also think I read that the Tesla chargers actually "read" the VIN 
number as part of the connection communications.  It must have something 
like that since the newer ones only get a limited amount of charge per 
year for "free".

respectfully,
John

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 

Sent: 5/2/2017 7:34:50 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

>If the car talks the the charger it should be able to dictate the flow 
>of electrons.  If someone comes up with the device maybe Tesla will 
>change it's policy.  It's more of a challenge rather than stealing 
>electricity.  That being said I never thought of the stealing aspect.  
>The III is upcoming and will pay for power.  I'd love to utilize a 
>Supercharger.  It would make a cross country trip more possible. I work 
>for EVRUS.  We welcome any kind of electric car that can plug to 
>Chademo.  Currently we service Nissan, Kia & Tesla...or any Chademo 
>ready vehicle you can't steal from us unless you can hack our system.  
>For Tesla it's a matter of plugging in as no adapter is yet 
>available(that we know of)for other vehicles.  So is it stealing if no 
>sign says Tesla only.  In some cases Tesla spots can be ICED.  They 
>sometimes can't be legally towed. So unless there is a posting saying 
>no vehicles other than Tesla is it stealing?    Lawrence Rhodes
>
>      From: robert winfield 
>  To: Lawrence Rhodes ; "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
>; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 
>; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
>
>  Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 6:12 AM
>  Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.
>
>Is this post seriously for real? Hacking a supercharger that puts out 
>over 120kW @ 400+V at roughly 300 amps
>
>
>
>Who wants to be the first "krispy critter"? really good advertising for 
>the EV community.
>really folks, a TINY bit of thought please
>
>
>      From: Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
>  To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ; 
>"ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 
>  Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 8:50 AM
>  Subject: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.
>
>There is an adapter for Chademo to charge a Tesla.  Does anyone think 
>it can be done in reverse?  Could the supercharger be fooled into 
>thinking it was charging a tiny tiny battery pack or a Tesla almost 
>full?  I suspect the Supercharger will look at the car and see the 
>truth and reject the charge but you never know what a hacker can do 
>until it's done.  Lawrence Rhodes
>-- next part --
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>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[John Neiswanger via EV]

So by this logic if I can figure out a "hack" I could take your car 
since it doesn't have a sign saying "don't take my car" or "for Lawrence 
only"?


I also think I read that the Tesla chargers actually "read" the VIN 
number as part of the connection communications.  It must have something 
like that since the newer ones only get a limited amount of charge per 
year for "free".


respectfully,
John

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 


Sent: 5/2/2017 7:34:50 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

If the car talks the the charger it should be able to dictate the flow 
of electrons.  If someone comes up with the device maybe Tesla will 
change it's policy.  It's more of a challenge rather than stealing 
electricity.  That being said I never thought of the stealing aspect.  
The III is upcoming and will pay for power.  I'd love to utilize a 
Supercharger.  It would make a cross country trip more possible. I work 
for EVRUS.  We welcome any kind of electric car that can plug to 
Chademo.  Currently we service Nissan, Kia & Tesla...or any Chademo 
ready vehicle you can't steal from us unless you can hack our system.  
For Tesla it's a matter of plugging in as no adapter is yet 
available(that we know of)for other vehicles.  So is it stealing if no 
sign says Tesla only.  In some cases Tesla spots can be ICED.  They 
sometimes can't be legally towed. So unless there is a posting saying 
no vehicles other than Tesla is it stealing?Lawrence Rhodes


  From: robert winfield 
 To: Lawrence Rhodes ; "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 
; Electric Vehicle Discussion List 


 Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 6:12 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

Is this post seriously for real? Hacking a supercharger that puts out 
over 120kW @ 400+V at roughly 300 amps




Who wants to be the first "krispy critter"? really good advertising for 
the EV community.

really folks, a TINY bit of thought please


  From: Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
 To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ; 
"ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 

 Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 8:50 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

There is an adapter for Chademo to charge a Tesla.  Does anyone think 
it can be done in reverse?  Could the supercharger be fooled into 
thinking it was charging a tiny tiny battery pack or a Tesla almost 
full?  I suspect the Supercharger will look at the car and see the 
truth and reject the charge but you never know what a hacker can do 
until it's done.  Lawrence Rhodes

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Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

If the car talks the the charger it should be able to dictate the flow of 
electrons.  If someone comes up with the device maybe Tesla will change it's 
policy.  It's more of a challenge rather than stealing electricity.  That being 
said I never thought of the stealing aspect.  The III is upcoming and will pay 
for power.  I'd love to utilize a Supercharger.  It would make a cross country 
trip more possible. I work for EVRUS.  We welcome any kind of electric car that 
can plug to Chademo.  Currently we service Nissan, Kia & Tesla...or any Chademo 
ready vehicle you can't steal from us unless you can hack our system.  For 
Tesla it's a matter of plugging in as no adapter is yet available(that we know 
of)for other vehicles.  So is it stealing if no sign says Tesla only.  In some 
cases Tesla spots can be ICED.  They sometimes can't be legally towed. So 
unless there is a posting saying no vehicles other than Tesla is it stealing?   
 Lawrence Rhodes

  From: robert winfield 
 To: Lawrence Rhodes ; "ev@lists.evdl.org" 
; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" ; 
Electric Vehicle Discussion List  
 Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 6:12 AM
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.
   
Is this post seriously for real? Hacking a supercharger that puts out over 
120kW @ 400+V at roughly 300 amps



Who wants to be the first "krispy critter"? really good advertising for the EV 
community.
really folks, a TINY bit of thought please


  From: Lawrence Rhodes via EV 
 To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 
 
 Sent: Tuesday, May 2, 2017 8:50 AM
 Subject: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.
  
There is an adapter for Chademo to charge a Tesla.  Does anyone think it can be 
done in reverse?  Could the supercharger be fooled into thinking it was 
charging a tiny tiny battery pack or a Tesla almost full?  I suspect the 
Supercharger will look at the car and see the truth and reject the charge but 
you never know what a hacker can do until it's done.  Lawrence Rhodes 
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Re: [EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[Collin Kidder via EV]

Can it be done in reverse? Almost certainly it can. The super charger
talks over single wire CAN to the car. People have done some captures.
To the best of my knowledge nobody has tried to charge on a super
charger with an unauthorized device. Doing so is likely to be seen as
theft (of electricity). After you, you cannot just go around using
other people's electricity just because you "need" it. The super
charger network is paid for by people who purchase the authorized
cars. Tesla seems to have no desire to allow other people to buy in.
That's unfortunate and I wish they'd change their position on that.
But, the law is the law. Without permission it's stealing so nobody
has tried it (that I know of. If someone did they'd probably keep that
to themselves)

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 8:42 AM, Lawrence Rhodes via EV
 wrote:
> There is an adapter for Chademo to charge a Tesla.  Does anyone think it can 
> be done in reverse?  Could the supercharger be fooled into thinking it was 
> charging a tiny tiny battery pack or a Tesla almost full?  I suspect the 
> Supercharger will look at the car and see the truth and reject the charge but 
> you never know what a hacker can do until it's done.  Lawrence Rhodes
> -- next part --
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[EVDL] Hacking a supercharger. Have a charge on Elon.

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

There is an adapter for Chademo to charge a Tesla.  Does anyone think it can be 
done in reverse?  Could the supercharger be fooled into thinking it was 
charging a tiny tiny battery pack or a Tesla almost full?  I suspect the 
Supercharger will look at the car and see the truth and reject the charge but 
you never know what a hacker can do until it's done.  Lawrence Rhodes 
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