Re: Tegmark's New Book

Dear Jason, As many as are possible. On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 1:54 AM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 12:51 AM, Stephen Paul King < > stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > >> Dear Jason, >> >> I would not say " that only a single "present" moment of time exists". >> I wou

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

My reading list is endless... On 27 January 2014 17:49, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/26/2014 7:22 PM, LizR wrote: > > On 27 January 2014 15:25, Stephen Paul King > wrote: > >> Dear LizR, >> George Spencer-Brown's Laws of >> Formare the place to start... >>

Re: Tegmark's New Book

On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 12:51 AM, Stephen Paul King < stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > Dear Jason, > > I would not say " that only a single "present" moment of time exists". > I would say that we have a concept of a "present moment" that we may > believe that each person has. Maybe you are d

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Dear Jason, "The idea that time flows, when followed to its logical ends, seems to undermine the very reasons for assuming it in the first place." I try to not mistake an idea for something it represents. On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 1:46 AM, Jason Resch wrote: > Stephen, > > If you say that only

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Dear Jason, I would not say " that only a single "present" moment of time exists". I would say that we have a concept of a "present moment" that we may believe that each person has. Maybe you are directing this post to Edgar... On Mon, Jan 27, 2014 at 1:46 AM, Jason Resch wrote: > Stephen, >

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Stephen, If you say that only a single "present" moment of time exists, that implies that the existence of that moment in time is entirely sufficient to explain your current experience. Now consider if the rate of flow of time slowed down, such that it took a thousand years to go from one Plank t

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/26/2014 9:19 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 17:31, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/26/2014 6:44 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 14:08, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/26/2014 3:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I have provid

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 10:42 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > > Once again my initial response to Jesse was because he claimed there was a > pile up and their isn't > No I didn't. The very first comment of mine on the subject (you can review it at http://www.mail-archive.com/everything-list@googlegro

Re: Better Than the Chinese Room

On Sunday, January 26, 2014 5:18:53 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 25 Jan 2014, at 15:35, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > On Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:41:30 AM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: >> >> On 25 January 2014 00:26, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> >> >> Tell me what you believe so we can be c

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 27 January 2014 17:31, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/26/2014 6:44 PM, LizR wrote: > > On 27 January 2014 14:08, meekerdb wrote: > >> On 1/26/2014 3:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> I have provided the definition. Should I repeat? >> God is the transcendental reality we bet on, and which is suppo

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/26/2014 8:13 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: PS: A slight correction to one sentence in my post below. The rest is good My sentence "By the time they (the falling objects) are actually beyond the event horizon they are long gone from view." is ambiguous because it doesn't specify whose cloc

Re: Better Than the Chinese Room

On Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:36:11 PM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: > > > > On 26 January 2014 01:35, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > >> But that doesn't answer the question: do you think (or understand, or > >> whatever you think the appropriate term is) that the Chinese Room > >> COULD POSSIBLY be cons

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 1/26/2014 7:22 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 15:25, Stephen Paul King > wrote: Dear LizR, George Spencer-Brown's Laws of Form are the place to start... I'll add that to my reading list. But on whi

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/26/2014 7:00 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 15:50, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/26/2014 1:45 PM, LizR wrote: OK, so your notion of God is "whatever is fundamentally responsible for existence" - hence primitive materialism makes matter (energy etc) pl

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/26/2014 6:44 PM, LizR wrote: On 27 January 2014 14:08, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 1/26/2014 3:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I have provided the definition. Should I repeat? God is the transcendental reality we bet on, and which is supposed to be respons

Re: A theory of dark matter...

PS: A slight correction to one sentence in my post below. The rest is good My sentence "By the time they (the falling objects) are actually beyond the event horizon they are long gone from view." is ambiguous because it doesn't specify whose clock time is being referenced. It should be pos

Re: A theory of dark matter...

Brent, The way it works is that objects do NOT appear to pile up at the event horizon. What happens is that they (as you correctly mentioned) appear to slow their approach to the event horizon to an external observer because the photons they emit take longer and longer to climb out of the incre

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 27 January 2014 15:25, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Dear LizR, >George Spencer-Brown's Laws of Formare > the place to start... > I'll add that to my reading list. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 27 January 2014 15:50, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/26/2014 1:45 PM, LizR wrote: > > OK, so your notion of God is "whatever is fundamentally responsible for > existence" - hence primitive materialism makes matter (energy etc) play the > part of God, in that sense. I can see that - an explanation th

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/26/2014 1:45 PM, LizR wrote: OK, so your notion of God is "whatever is fundamentally responsible for existence" - hence primitive materialism makes matter (energy etc) play the part of God, in that sense. I can see that - an explanation that stops at matter and says "that's it!" is indeed

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 27 January 2014 14:08, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/26/2014 3:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > I have provided the definition. Should I repeat? > God is the transcendental reality we bet on, and which is supposed to be > responsible for my or our existence. > > Sounds like "physics" to me. > If phy

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 27 January 2014 15:30, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/26/2014 12:40 PM, LizR wrote: > > It's common knowledge - well, amongst people who are interested in this > sort of thing - that an outside observer sees an infalling object get stuck > just outside the event horizon of a black hole (and then fade

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/26/2014 12:40 PM, LizR wrote: It's common knowledge - well, amongst people who are interested in this sort of thing - that an outside observer sees an infalling object get stuck just outside the event horizon of a black hole (and then fade away as it redshifts towards infinity) This was e

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

Dear LizR, George Spencer-Brown's Laws of Form are the place to start... On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 9:22 PM, LizR wrote: > On 27 January 2014 14:55, Stephen Paul King wrote: > >>I just wish I could figure out how to get him (and you!) to >> acknowledge

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 27 January 2014 14:11, Jason Resch wrote: > > This is something I have always wondered: if gravitons are real, does it > make the "warping of space" explanation of gravity redundant? What was the > evidence that space warps to begin with? The only thing I could think of > was gravitational tim

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 27 January 2014 14:50, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Dear LizR, > >I will let Kevin Knuth answer for me: > http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1831 > Thanks, I will add that to my reading list. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List"

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 27 January 2014 14:55, Stephen Paul King wrote: >I just wish I could figure out how to get him (and you!) to acknowledge > that there is a distinction that makes a difference between a thing and its > representation. There are rules and principles of "distinctions that make a > difference".

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/26/2014 11:32 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Brent, There is no confusion. Sure, that's just the standard kiddy book diagram of a black hole with which everyone agrees (except Jesse Mazur who thinks nothing actually enters a black hole but instead piles up on the event horizon boundary - see h

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

Dear LizR, On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 8:37 PM, LizR wrote: > On 27 January 2014 13:39, Stephen Paul King wrote: > >> Dear LizR, >> >>By that standard we would still be living in caves >> > > Teehee. Have you been reading Camille Paglia... > No... good to know. I will try not to use that p

Re: A theory of dark matter...

Brent, Read my response to Liz addressed also to you and Jesse also before commenting please... Edgar On Sunday, January 26, 2014 8:34:42 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > On 1/26/2014 10:53 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > > > If what you claim was true everything that fell towards a black hole > wo

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

Dear LizR, I will let Kevin Knuth answer for me: http://fqxi.org/community/forum/topic/1831 On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 8:33 PM, LizR wrote: > On 27 January 2014 13:36, Stephen Paul King wrote: > >> Dear LizR, >> >> Very good points that you make, but they are peripheral What I am >> tryi

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/26/2014 10:53 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Jesse, Respectfully, I don't have time to argue what is well known. If you don't believe me ask others here, or a physicist. You already asked a physicist. I'm a physicist, and what you're selling is not only not well known, it's well known to be

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 27 January 2014 13:39, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Dear LizR, > >By that standard we would still be living in caves > Teehee. Have you been reading Camille Paglia... Personally I think this should be a touchstone for all people with unconventional ideas. Once you can explain them so I

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/26/2014 10:53 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: If what you claim was true everything that fell towards a black hole would never enter it and would be perpetually stuck around the boundary. You're not paying attention. The disagreement was whether a far away observer ever *sees* the infalling o

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 27 January 2014 13:36, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Dear LizR, > > Very good points that you make, but they are peripheral What I am > trying to draw attention is: How did the "order" and the "relating" come to > pass? (in the last sentence you wrote.) > This is the question of the origin

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/26/2014 3:19 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Jan 2014, at 20:53, LizR wrote: I think you guys need to provide your definitions of God and compare them. I imagine they're rather different. I did. Very often. I did again in my preceding post to John Clark. And John did it also. For John,

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 3:58 PM, meekerdb wrote: > On 1/25/2014 5:19 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > > Brent, > > Obviously the space outside a black hole event horizon is warped. That's > experimentally confirmed. My question is HOW does it become warped from the > mass inside the black hole which

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 1/26/2014 3:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I have provided the definition. Should I repeat? God is the transcendental reality we bet on, and which is supposed to be responsible for my or our existence. Sounds like "physics" to me. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

Dear LizR, By that standard we would still be living in caves Sorry, knowledge does not come cheaply. :_( It has taken me countless hours of reading to get to where I am.. What is one to do, when trying to explain an idea that is unconventional? I can't seem to just shut up... On Sun, Ja

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

Dear LizR, Very good points that you make, but they are peripheral What I am trying to draw attention is: How did the "order" and the "relating" come to pass? (in the last sentence you wrote.) Is is just sitting there, in eternity, and our consciousness somehow is a reflection of this "or

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 27 January 2014 12:49, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Dear LizR, > > Keep going! Don't stop there, hear out the fellow's definition and think > about it. > > It's far too complicated for my little brain. You must have noticed me (slowly and painfully) working out the answers to Bruno's exercises.

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 27 January 2014 12:48, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Dear LizR, > : > "the idea of time as a steady progression from past to future is wrong. I > know very well we feel this way about it subjectively. But we're the > victims of a confidence trick..." > > What other implication does Hoyle's phra

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

Dear LizR, Keep going! Don't stop there, hear out the fellow's definition and think about it. On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 6:42 PM, LizR wrote: > On 27 January 2014 11:26, Stephen Paul King wrote: > >> Dear LizR, >> >> You and Bruno have often complained that my postings lack rigor... For >> a

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

Dear LizR, : "the idea of time as a steady progression from past to future is wrong. I know very well we feel this way about it subjectively. But we're the victims of a confidence trick..." What other implication does Hoyle's phrasing have? His entire discussion of the pigeon holes is to point

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 27 January 2014 11:26, Stephen Paul King wrote: > Dear LizR, > > You and Bruno have often complained that my postings lack rigor... For a > nice formal representation of Heraclitean "streams" click > here

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 27 January 2014 11:20, Stephen Paul King wrote: > > "'Because, like all of us in our daily lives, you're stuck with a >> grotesque and absurd illusion.' >> >> 'How's that?' >> >> 'The idea of time as an ever-rolling stream. The thing which is supposed >> to bear all its sons away. There's one th

Re: A humble suggestion to the group

Russell, Yes, I also tried to salvage what was available from the web archive, but unfortunate it looks like the archiver never found the wiki to begin with so nothing was ever archived. I won't let that happen this time, I will submit the new wiki address such that it gets properly archived shoul

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

Dear John, LOL< your most welcome. :-) Those books where part of my (on-going)education. It is great to see them mentioned. On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 5:36 PM, John Mikes wrote: > Stephen: thanks for your consent and the book review. I have the oher one. > John > > > On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 5:0

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

Stephen: thanks for your consent and the book review. I have the oher one. John On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 5:09 PM, Stephen Paul King < stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > Dear Folks, > > I agree with John's most resent remark and his recommendation of the > books. Here is a nice review of Colla

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 12:57 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > PS: In my post below that should read electric FIELDS can come out of a > black hole, not electric CHARGES. > > Pardon the typo! > > Edgar > I don't think it's right to say fields "come out of" the black hole. In classical electromagnetism

Re: A humble suggestion to the group

That is a pity, given I wrote quite a few of those pages. I don't have the time now to repeat the effort :(. But I'll chime on of other people's efforts. We must make sure we have backups this time! PS - checked the Wayback machine, and it did only one archive of the wiki back in 21st of July las

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

Dear LizR, You and Bruno have often complained that my postings lack rigor... For a nice formal representation of Heraclitean "streams" click here

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 4:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 25 Jan 2014, at 14:05, Richard Ruquist wrote: > > > > > On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 6:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> >> On 24 Jan 2014, at 23:12, meekerdb wrote: >> >> On 1/24/2014 12:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> In your aristot

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

Dear LizR, On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 5:14 PM, LizR wrote: > On 26 January 2014 23:03, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> On 25 Jan 2014, at 14:15, David Nyman wrote: >> >> On 25 January 2014 09:21, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> Maybe the difference in intuition is because she doesn't think about it >>> i

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 26 January 2014 23:03, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 25 Jan 2014, at 14:15, David Nyman wrote: > > On 25 January 2014 09:21, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> Maybe the difference in intuition is because she doesn't think about it >> in Hoyle's "universalist" way, although ISTM this is implicit in the >

Re: A humble suggestion to the group

All, Unfortunately it seems the database for previous wiki page was somehow deleted, but I have created a fresh version at: http://everythingwiki.gcn.cx/wiki2/index.php?title=Main_Page I've also created a number of stub pages, which you can see at: http://everythingwiki.gcn.cx/wiki2/index.php?t

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

Also see: http://files.meetup.com/1819750/%2313%20-%20Ian%20Stewart%20-%20Figments%20of%20Reality.pdf On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 5:09 PM, Stephen Paul King < stephe...@provensecure.com> wrote: > Dear Folks, > > I agree with John's most resent remark and his recommendation of the > books. Here is

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

Dear Folks, I agree with John's most resent remark and his recommendation of the books. Here is a nice review of Collapse of Chaos: http://www.thenewhumanities.net/books/Book%20Reviews44.html On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 4:43 PM, John Mikes wrote: > On 19 Jan 2014, at 23:54, John Mikes wrote: >

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 4:31 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Brent, Liz and Jesse, > > OK, now I understand the effect you guys are referencing... > > I thought Jesse had been saying that things don't ACTUALLY fall into black > holes, they just pile up on the event horizon surface, because their motio

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 27 January 2014 00:19, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 25 Jan 2014, at 20:53, LizR wrote: > > I think you guys need to provide your definitions of God and compare them. > I imagine they're rather different. > > I did. Very often. I did again in my preceding post to John Clark. > > And John did it a

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 19 Jan 2014, at 23:54, John Mikes wrote: *Bruno*, let me use simple words (you seem to overcomplicate my input). *"JM: What IS the 'mind' you PRESERVE?"* *BM:* My consciousness. - It means that I can surivive in the usal clinical sense, the brain digi

Re: A theory of dark matter...

Brent, Liz and Jesse, OK, now I understand the effect you guys are referencing... I thought Jesse had been saying that things don't ACTUALLY fall into black holes, they just pile up on the event horizon surface, because their motion actually slows down as they approach the surface BECAUSE their

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 25 Jan 2014, at 20:00, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 4:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > You attack the straw man, again. Billions of people believe in this "straw man" , and that is exactly why using the word "God" is totally irresponsible if you're not talking about a inte

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 25 Jan 2014, at 20:53, LizR wrote: I think you guys need to provide your definitions of God and compare them. I imagine they're rather different. I did. Very often. I did again in my preceding post to John Clark. And John did it also. For John, like for many fundamentalist atheists, Go

Re: Church thesis => non computable functions exist (Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 25 Jan 2014, at 14:15, David Nyman wrote: On 25 January 2014 09:21, Bruno Marchal wrote: Maybe the difference in intuition is because she doesn't think about it in Hoyle's "universalist" way, although ISTM this is implicit in the heuristic (i.e. the "guy" is the unique and non- simult

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 25 Jan 2014, at 17:51, meekerdb wrote: On 1/25/2014 3:07 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: And even if they did, why would that cause me to say "no" to the doctor. By the UDA. If you say "yes" to the doctor, physics emerges from all computations, and even plausibly from those who do not stop,

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Dear Edgar, On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Stephen, > > To combine my responses to several of your posts... > > I sort of agree with your notion of multiple realities but I would argue > these are not the fundamental reality and we must assume a more fundamental > reali

Re: 1/2 step 0 (was Re: Tegmark's New Book)

On 25 Jan 2014, at 18:11, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Bruno, Once again a summary of my computational universe: I did not ask you a summary of your theory. Just a definition of computation, or of your computational space notion, as what I get is until now seeming inconsistent. The fundame

Re: A theory of dark matter...

It's common knowledge - well, amongst people who are interested in this sort of thing - that an outside observer sees an infalling object get stuck just outside the event horizon of a black hole (and then fade away as it redshifts towards infinity) This was explained in a (relatively) recent "scie

Re: Tegmark's New Book

On 27 January 2014 01:13, ronaldheld wrote: > Without hijacking this massive thread, I am asking if it is worth buying > this book, if you are not a believer in the platonic universe, UDA,etc? > I would hope noone here is a believer in the PU, UDA etc! We just haven't refuted them (yet). I can'

Re: Edge.org: 2014 : WHAT SCIENTIFIC IDEA IS READY FOR RETIREMENT? The Computational Metaphor

On 25 Jan 2014, at 14:05, Richard Ruquist wrote: On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 6:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 24 Jan 2014, at 23:12, meekerdb wrote: On 1/24/2014 12:15 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: In your aristotelian theology. But when working on the mind-body problem, it is better to aband

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 25 Jan 2014, at 21:35, Edgar L. Owen wrote: Liz, Bruno and John, Liz is spot on here. Almost all of the interminable arguments about God are simply because different unstated definitions are being used. God is a matter of definition not of empirical discovery. You can't be sure of tha

Re: Better Than the Chinese Room

On 25 Jan 2014, at 15:35, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Saturday, January 25, 2014 1:41:30 AM UTC-5, stathisp wrote: On 25 January 2014 00:26, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> Tell me what you believe so we can be clear: >> >> My understanding is that you believe that if the parts of the Chinese >> Ro

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On 25 Jan 2014, at 21:24, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 8:00 PM, John Clark wrote: On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 4:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > You attack the straw man, again. Billions of people believe in this "straw man" , and that is exactly why using the

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 12:02 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 2:53 PM, LizR wrote: > > > I think you guys need to provide your definitions of God and compare >> them. >> > > I use the exact same definition that BILLIONS of people on this planet > use: the word "God" refers to an

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On 1/26/2014 7:29 AM, Jesse Mazer wrote: Also note that this is just a quirk of how Schwarzchild coordinates are defined, you can define other coordinate systems on the same curved spacetime that don't have this issue, like Kruskal-Szekeres coordinate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kruskal–Sze

Re: A theory of dark matter...

Brent, There is no confusion. Sure, that's just the standard kiddy book diagram of a black hole with which everyone agrees (except Jesse Mazur who thinks nothing actually enters a black hole but instead piles up on the event horizon boundary - see his posts). But that doesn't address the point

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Stephen, To combine my responses to several of your posts... I sort of agree with your notion of multiple realities but I would argue these are not the fundamental reality and we must assume a more fundamental reality with the same laws of nature, rules of logic, and fine tuning, etc. that the

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 7:02 PM, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 2:53 PM, LizR wrote: > > > I think you guys need to provide your definitions of God and compare >> them. >> > > I use the exact same definition that BILLIONS of people on this planet > use: the word "God" refers to an i

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 1:53 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Jesse, > > Respectfully, I don't have time to argue what is well known. If you don't > believe me ask others here, or a physicist. > You are being evasive--you want me to "ask a physicist" but "don't have time" to tell me if you would chang

RE: A theory of dark matter...

Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2014 10:53:42 -0800 From: edgaro...@att.net To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: A theory of dark matter... Jesse, Respectfully, I don't have time to argue what is well known. If you don't believe me ask others here, or a physicist. If what you claim was true ever

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Platonist Guitar Cowboy < multiplecit...@gmail.com> wrote: > GREEK PHILOSOPHERS ARE IGNORAMUSES! > I agree, all this Greek ancestor worship that I see around here is just nuts and stifles original thought . The idea that we can solve today's cutting edge scientifi

Re: A theory of dark matter...

Jesse, Respectfully, I don't have time to argue what is well known. If you don't believe me ask others here, or a physicist. If what you claim was true everything that fell towards a black hole would never enter it and would be perpetually stuck around the boundary. That would include all the

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Jesse, > > PS: It's not my theory, it's mainstream relativity theory. Any physicist > and probably some others here can set you straight > > Edgar > If you think this is mainstream physics, then can you please answer the question I as

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 12:47 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Jesse, > > No, you are just plain wrong here. It's simple relativity theory. Just > because observer A sees observer B's clock slow down does NOT mean observer > A sees observer B's MOTION slow down. In fact it is the increase in > velocity

Re: A theory of dark matter...

Thanks Richard, quite interesting, though obviously the jury is still out... Edgar On Sunday, January 26, 2014 12:54:19 PM UTC-5, yanniru wrote: > > Edgar, > Regarding " Nobody actually knows what happens in the singularity itself", > Poplawski using Einstein equations with spin has determined

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 12:57 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > PS: In my post below that should read electric FIELDS can come out of a > black hole, not electric CHARGES. > > Pardon the typo! > > Edgar > > > > On Sunday, January 26, 2014 12:41:07 PM UTC-5, Edgar L. Owen wrote: >> >> Richard, >> >> Well

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 2:53 PM, LizR wrote: > I think you guys need to provide your definitions of God and compare > them. > I use the exact same definition that BILLIONS of people on this planet use: the word "God" refers to an intelligent conscious being who created the universe. And the most

Re: A theory of dark matter...

PS: In my post below that should read electric FIELDS can come out of a black hole, not electric CHARGES. Pardon the typo! Edgar On Sunday, January 26, 2014 12:41:07 PM UTC-5, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > > Richard, > > Well, electric charges can theoretically come out of a black hole, just > NOT

Re: A theory of dark matter...

Edgar, Regarding " Nobody actually knows what happens in the singularity itself", Poplawski using Einstein equations with spin has determined what happens inside a black hole: "In 2011, Nikodem Popławski showed that a nonsingular Big Bounce appe

Re: A theory of dark matter...

Jesse, PS: It's not my theory, it's mainstream relativity theory. Any physicist and probably some others here can set you straight Edgar On Sunday, January 26, 2014 12:22:58 PM UTC-5, jessem wrote: > > > > On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Edgar L. Owen > > wrote: > >> Jesse, >> >> No. >

Re: A theory of dark matter...

Jesse, No, you are just plain wrong here. It's simple relativity theory. Just because observer A sees observer B's clock slow down does NOT mean observer A sees observer B's MOTION slow down. In fact it is the increase in velocity (or equivalently gravitation) that CAUSES his clock to slow in

Re: A theory of dark matter...

Richard, Well, electric charges can theoretically come out of a black hole, just NOT the singularity in particular as you suggested. Nobody actually knows what happens in the singularity itself, or at least there is no consensus. I made one suggestion with reference to a bouncing universe and g

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 11:49 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: > Jesse, > > No. > > First you have a basic misunderstanding of relativistic time in your first > paragraph. External observers DO see objects fall through the event horizon > of a black hole with no problem at all. They don't get stuck someh

Re: Tegmark's New Book

Dear Edgar, I have a different definition of "reality": what which is incontrovertiblefor some collection of mutually communicating observ

Re: A theory of dark matter...

Jesse, No. First you have a basic misunderstanding of relativistic time in your first paragraph. External observers DO see objects fall through the event horizon of a black hole with no problem at all. They don't get stuck somehow to the surface of the event horizon as you suggest. They accele

Re: Discovery of quantum vibrations in brain microtubules confirms Hameroff/Penrose consciousness theory basis

On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 9:42 PM, LizR wrote: > On 26 January 2014 09:33, Platonist Guitar Cowboy < > multiplecit...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 8:53 PM, LizR wrote: >> >>> I think you guys need to provide your definitions of God and compare >>> them. I imagine they're rather d

Re: A theory of dark matter...

Jesse, Please excuse my simple-minded model: "Electric fields also come out if the BH singularity has a charge." Richard On Sun, Jan 26, 2014 at 10:16 AM, Jesse Mazer wrote: > According to general relativity, neither gravity nor electric fields > actually "come out of" the black hole's event ho

Re: A theory of dark matter...

On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 1:25 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote: > > > > On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 12:02 PM, meekerdb wrote: > >> On 1/25/2014 5:29 AM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: >> >>> Brent, >>> >>> We have to be careful to be precisely accurate here. >>> >>> 1. The structure of a black hole is not just a sing

Re: A theory of dark matter...

According to general relativity, neither gravity nor electric fields actually "come out of" the black hole's event horizon, rather the gravity and EM field felt by observers outside the horizon is a sort of frozen snapshot of the gravity/EM fields from all the matter that approached the horizon in

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