Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 15 May 2014, at 18:27, Dennis Ochei wrote: Parfit denies the existence of personal identity altogether, what is left merely psychological and biological relatedness relations. Personal identity works if everyone is one person, but i dont want to be forced by my view of personal continui

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 15 May 2014, at 18:13, Dennis Ochei wrote: Its pretty obvious that the naive notion cannot handle the split brain thought experiment or ship of theseus. Its also not obvious that a duplicate would be a new person. There is no such thing as the original particles, all like particles are

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 12:41 AM, Dennis Ochei wrote: > The more I think about the subjective expectation question the more > meaningless it becomes. I'm not asking if a future person is physically or > psychologically like me, I know the answer to that. In fact, even if I knew > every physical fa

Re: Virtual Logic - Formal Arithmetic

On 5/15/2014 10:04 PM, freqflyer07281972 wrote: So do you think there is some merit in Kauffman's conclusions? Do you think it is possible to reason about "the Void"? Or meaningful? Or useful? Sure, it's possible to reason about anything. Whether you can arrive at something useful is an open

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 5/15/2014 9:28 PM, LizR wrote: "Simulated" doesn't really denote any distinction when it refers to a whole world (ever read Stanilaw Lem's "The Cyberiad"?). Yes, I've read The Cyberiad many times, as well as lots of other things by Mr Lem. My favorite scifi author. Brent "A m

Re: Virtual Logic - Formal Arithmetic

So do you think there is some merit in Kauffman's conclusions? Do you think it is possible to reason about "the Void"? Or meaningful? Or useful? In the article, Kauffman seems to telegraph right at the beginning that everything that will follow is an exercise in deception, thanks to the old Ta

Re: Virtual Logic - Formal Arithmetic

On 5/15/2014 9:30 PM, freqflyer07281972 wrote: I don't get it. Please explain? Are you making a joke, something on the order of "both of these guys are spouting such metaphysical hogwash that the debate between them would be an even bigger yawnfest than their articles in particular"? It was

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 5/15/2014 9:29 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 May 2014 15:32, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 5/15/2014 6:06 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 May 2014 13:02, Russell Standish mailto:li...@hpcoders.com.au>> wrote: On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 12:10:20PM +1200, LizR wrote: >

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

The more I think about the subjective expectation question the more meaningless it becomes. I'm not asking if a future person is physically or psychologically like me, I know the answer to that. In fact, even if I knew every physical fact about a body and had a complete knowledge of the neural corr

Re: Virtual Logic - Formal Arithmetic

I don't get it. Please explain? Are you making a joke, something on the order of "both of these guys are spouting such metaphysical hogwash that the debate between them would be an even bigger yawnfest than their articles in particular"? Or is it some specific aspect of what each of them profe

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 16 May 2014 15:32, meekerdb wrote: > On 5/15/2014 6:06 PM, LizR wrote: > > On 16 May 2014 13:02, Russell Standish wrote: > >> On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 12:10:20PM +1200, LizR wrote: >> > >> > I don't think we replace our brain cells, but even if we do, isn't the >> fact >> > > that they are r

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 16 May 2014 15:23, meekerdb wrote: > Imho this depends on whether comp and the capsule theory are correct - > i.e. whether "yes doctor" is a good bet. It can only be a good bet if there > is nothing supernatural involved, if physical continuity isn't important > (which requires that eliminativ

Re: Virtual Logic - Formal Arithmetic

"We have proved that the Void is One, because it certainly is not Many." Is there no possibility that the void might be None? On 16 May 2014 15:47, meekerdb wrote: > On 5/15/2014 6:45 PM, freqflyer07281972 wrote: > >> A fun little article I came across that I thought everyone here might >> app

Re: Virtual Logic - Formal Arithmetic

On 5/15/2014 6:45 PM, freqflyer07281972 wrote: A fun little article I came across that I thought everyone here might appreciate: http://www.imprint.co.uk/C&HK/vol7/kauffman_7-4.pdf Thoughts? Objections? I can hardly wait to hear the Kauffman vs William Lane Craig debate. Brent -- You rece

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 5/15/2014 6:06 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 May 2014 13:02, Russell Standish > wrote: On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 12:10:20PM +1200, LizR wrote: > > I don't think we replace our brain cells, but even if we do, isn't the fact > > that they are replaced and th

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 5/15/2014 5:55 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 16 May 2014 01:59, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 5/14/2014 11:30 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 15 May 2014 16:24, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 5/14/2014 9:51 PM, Dennis Oche

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 5/15/2014 5:10 PM, LizR wrote: On 16 May 2014 10:25, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 5/15/2014 2:57 PM, LizR wrote: Comp and the capsule theory of memory (and "Memento") suggest that a "person" is a series of person-moments, each of which is considered t

Virtual Logic - Formal Arithmetic

A fun little article I came across that I thought everyone here might appreciate: http://www.imprint.co.uk/C&HK/vol7/kauffman_7-4.pdf Thoughts? Objections? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 16 May 2014 11:02, Russell Standish wrote: > On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 12:10:20PM +1200, LizR wrote: > > > > I don't think we replace our brain cells, but even if we do, isn't the > fact > > > that they are replaced and the replacements are functionally similar > > > important to who we are? > >

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 16 May 2014 12:55, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > What would happen to the common sense theory of bodily continuity if > teleportation, with or without destruction of the original, were possible > and commonplace? > > Anyone who's watched "Star Trek" can answer that one! -- You received this m

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 16 May 2014 13:02, Russell Standish wrote: > On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 12:10:20PM +1200, LizR wrote: > > > > I don't think we replace our brain cells, but even if we do, isn't the > fact > > > that they are replaced and the replacements are functionally similar > > > important to who we are? > >

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 16 May 2014 01:59, meekerdb wrote: > On 5/14/2014 11:30 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: > > > > > On 15 May 2014 16:24, meekerdb wrote: > >> On 5/14/2014 9:51 PM, Dennis Ochei wrote: >> >> But then the identity relationship is no longer transitive... >> >> Suppose a brave officer to have be

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On Fri, May 16, 2014 at 12:10:20PM +1200, LizR wrote: > > I don't think we replace our brain cells, but even if we do, isn't the fact > > that they are replaced and the replacements are functionally similar > > important to who we are? > > > > We do, apparently. > http://www.theguardian.com/scienc

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 16 May 2014 11:40, meekerdb wrote: > But I think a lot of what your brain does is integrate perceptions from > different places (right eye, left eye, inner ear,...) into a coherent story > that appears as conscious thought. So I expect that if you were sharing > inputs with Terren or sharing

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 16 May 2014 10:36, Dennis Ochei wrote: > Right Liz, the question is, does the memory link actually signify the > presence of the same local I? Or does each moment have its own I? Or do all > moments everywhere share a single global I? If there are local I's, then > how are their boundaries dra

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 16 May 2014 10:25, meekerdb wrote: > On 5/15/2014 2:57 PM, LizR wrote: > >> Comp and the capsule theory of memory (and "Memento") suggest that a >> "person" is a series of person-moments, each of which is considered to last >> somewhere around 1/10th of a second (it could be longer or shorter

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

But I think a lot of what your brain does is integrate perceptions from different places (right eye, left eye, inner ear,...) into a coherent story that appears as conscious thought. So I expect that if you were sharing inputs with Terren or sharing brain parts, each brain would continue to cre

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

I meant borne. Subjective expectation is the problem. It's not clear that you can "partially" partake in an experience. An experience is either yours or it is someone elses. On Thursday, May 15, 2014, meekerdb wrote: > On 5/15/2014 12:57 PM, Dennis Ochei wrote: > > More like me than anything el

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

Right Liz, the question is, does the memory link actually signify the presence of the same local I? Or does each moment have its own I? Or do all moments everywhere share a single global I? If there are local I's, then how are their boundaries drawn? All of these questions are epiphenomenal from t

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 5/15/2014 3:05 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 12:40:10PM -0500, Dennis Ochei wrote: The empty view doesn't stop at sleep, different psychophysical structures are different persons. From moment to moment there is no identity. Identity is abolished in all but the trivial ca

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 05:17:51PM -0500, Dennis Ochei wrote: > But someone can have global amnesia and still be a person, I dont think > having memories originating from two people makes you a non-person > No - but a 50/50 mix of brain structure will be non functional. And you have to replace th

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 5/15/2014 3:17 PM, Dennis Ochei wrote: But someone can have global amnesia and still be a person, I dont think having memories originating from two people makes you a non-person They have to have short term memory though. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 5/15/2014 2:57 PM, LizR wrote: Comp and the capsule theory of memory (and "Memento") suggest that a "person" is a series of person-moments, each of which is considered to last somewhere around 1/10th of a second (it could be longer or shorter and the idea would still hold) and assumed be the

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

But someone can have global amnesia and still be a person, I dont think having memories originating from two people makes you a non-person On Thursday, May 15, 2014, Russell Standish wrote: > On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 12:40:10PM -0500, Dennis Ochei wrote: > > The empty view doesn't stop at sleep,

Re: Video of VCR

On 16 May 2014 08:22, Craig Weinberg wrote: > On Thursday, May 15, 2014 2:19:01 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> On 15 May 2014, at 14:40, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> >> On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 6:34:55 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> >>> On 14 May 2014, at 03:45, Craig Weinberg wrote: >>>

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 12:40:10PM -0500, Dennis Ochei wrote: > The empty view doesn't stop at sleep, different psychophysical structures > are different persons. From moment to moment there is no identity. Identity > is abolished in all but the trivial case, there are just degrees of > relatedness

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

Comp and the capsule theory of memory (and "Memento") suggest that a "person" is a series of person-moments, each of which is considered to last somewhere around 1/10th of a second (it could be longer or shorter and the idea would still hold) and assumed be the same person due to being linked by me

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 16 May 2014 05:54, meekerdb wrote: > On 5/15/2014 9:13 AM, Dennis Ochei wrote: > > Its pretty obvious that the naive notion cannot handle the split brain > thought experiment or ship of theseus. > > > But you don't know that those are possible. > > > Its also not obvious that a duplicate woul

Re: Moneybot Singularity

On 16 May 2014 08:29, Craig Weinberg wrote: > On Thursday, May 15, 2014 3:55:12 PM UTC-4, JohnM wrote: > >> Craig: >> beautiful reply, appreciate your understanding and explanation. >> H O W E V E R : >> if we "MIX" pop culture with more 'thought-of' speculation (language?) we >> get into trouble

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 5/15/2014 12:57 PM, Dennis Ochei wrote: More like me than anything else in the universe is not sufficient for subjective expectation. Im not asking whether my appearance, personality, and memories are preserved (they are) I'm asking whether these properties are born by the same "I" of the pr

Re: Moneybot Singularity

On Thursday, May 15, 2014 3:55:12 PM UTC-4, JohnM wrote: > > Craig: > beautiful reply, appreciate your understanding and explanation. > H O W E V E R : > if we "MIX" pop culture with more 'thought-of' speculation (language?) we > get into trouble soon. Popular meanings are ill-defined and many

Re: Video of VCR

On Thursday, May 15, 2014 2:19:01 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 15 May 2014, at 14:40, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 6:34:55 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 14 May 2014, at 03:45, Craig Weinberg wrote: >> >> I'm showing that authenticity can be empi

Re: Moneybot Singularity

Craig, my Kraxlwerk (PC) stole the half-baked text and mailed it away. I am thankful: the rest would have been silly, anyway. John On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 3:55 PM, John Mikes wrote: > Craig: > beautiful reply, appreciate your understanding and explanation. > H O W E V E R : > if we "MIX" pop cu

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

More like me than anything else in the universe is not sufficient for subjective expectation. Im not asking whether my appearance, personality, and memories are preserved (they are) I'm asking whether these properties are born by the same "I" of the present On Thursday, May 15, 2014, meekerdb wro

Re: Moneybot Singularity

Craig: beautiful reply, appreciate your understanding and explanation. H O W E V E R : if we "MIX" pop culture with more 'thought-of' speculation (language?) we get into trouble soon. Popular meanings are ill-defined and many times loose. I try to verify the exact meanings applies On Wed, May 14,

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

split brain is possible and has been done, ship of theseus already happens at the physical and psychological level all the time. I dont think physical continuity should matter. If someone deconstructed and reconstructed me nothing is lost. On Thursday, May 15, 2014, meekerdb wrote: > On 5/15/20

Re: TRONNIES

On 16 May 2014 06:54, John Ross wrote: > LizR, > > > > See my reply to Russell. > > > > I know this is going to upset you but in my model every single photon in > our Universe has a mass and that mass is determined by E = mc squared. > This is true in relativity as well. > Specifically the 1.

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 5/15/2014 11:31 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 15 May 2014, at 08:30, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 15 May 2014 16:24, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 5/14/2014 9:51 PM, Dennis Ochei wrote: But then the identity relationship is no longer transitive... Suppose

Re: TRONNIES

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 2:00 PM, John Ross wrote: > I have not attempted to do a detailed math analysis of all or the forces > acting in any of these particles Why am I not surprised? > other than the entron. I have shown the math to prove for the entron > that two tronnies traveling on opposi

RE: TRONNIES

LizR, See my reply to Russell. I know this is going to upset you but in my model every single photon in our Universe has a mass and that mass is determined by E = mc squared. Specifically the 1.02 MeV gamma ray photon has the same mass as the combined mass of the electron and a positro

Re: Is Consciousness Computable?

On 14 May 2014, at 12:25, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Wednesday, May 14, 2014, LizR wrote: Comp isn't really a theory, so testing it is a bit problematic. It's "just" a logical argument which purports to show the consequences of taking seriously the idea that brains are Turing emulabl

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 15 May 2014, at 08:30, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 15 May 2014 16:24, meekerdb wrote: On 5/14/2014 9:51 PM, Dennis Ochei wrote: But then the identity relationship is no longer transitive... Suppose a brave officer to have been flogged when a boy at school, for robbing an orchard, t

Re: Video of VCR

On 15 May 2014, at 14:40, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 6:34:55 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 May 2014, at 03:45, Craig Weinberg wrote: I'm showing that authenticity can be empirically demonstrated, and that the failure of logic to detect the significance of au

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 1:40 PM, Dennis Ochei wrote: > The empty view doesn't stop at sleep, different psychophysical structures > are different persons. From moment to moment there is no identity. Identity > is abolished in all but the trivial case, there are just degrees of > relatedness. Your r

RE: TRONNIES

If a photon is not self-propelled, what propels it? I say the photon is self-propelled because each of the two tronnies are repelling themselves at the speed of light so they leapfrog each other at twice the speed of light in a circle and forward at the speed of light in order to always stay ah

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 5/15/2014 10:40 AM, Dennis Ochei wrote: The empty view doesn't stop at sleep, different psychophysical structures are different persons. From moment to moment there is no identity. Identity is abolished in all but the trivial case, there are just degrees of relatedness. Your relation to your

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 5/15/2014 9:27 AM, Dennis Ochei wrote: The memory criterion is a problem because the identity question cannot be graded. I will either wake up in my bed tomorrow or someone else will who is merely like me will. Why "merely"? Why isn't "more like me than anything else in the universe" enough

RE: TRONNIES

I think your graph is very good. You are right about the inverse square law. I am not sure about the screening idea. I have not attempted to do a detailed math analysis of all or the forces acting in any of these particles other than the entron. I have shown the math to prove for the entron tha

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 5/15/2014 9:13 AM, Dennis Ochei wrote: Its pretty obvious that the naive notion cannot handle the split brain thought experiment or ship of theseus. But you don't know that those are possible. Its also not obvious that a duplicate would be a new person. It's just a semantic choice. The

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

The empty view doesn't stop at sleep, different psychophysical structures are different persons. From moment to moment there is no identity. Identity is abolished in all but the trivial case, there are just degrees of relatedness. Your relation to your future self is like your relationship with a s

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

Hi Dennis, I'm not familiar with Parfit and the other theoricians you guys have been talking about, but the concepts around self being bandied around seem so black and white. Dennis, you say self cannot be graded but why? My self when I am drunk is different than my self when I am sober, but this

Open Individualism and Self Interest

Parfit denies the existence of personal identity altogether, what is left merely psychological and biological relatedness relations. Personal identity works if everyone is one person, but i dont want to be forced by my view of personal continuity to be an extreme altruist Personal identity works

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

Its pretty obvious that the naive notion cannot handle the split brain thought experiment or ship of theseus. Its also not obvious that a duplicate would be a new person. There is no such thing as the original particles, all like particles are indistinguishable. Furthermore, the replication can be

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 5/14/2014 11:34 PM, Dennis Ochei wrote: It doesn't handle the semiconservative replication case, where each resultant person retains half the material from the original, and you run into ship of theseus and sorites paradoxes But there are no such cases. They are stories based on a model of

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 5/14/2014 11:32 PM, Dennis Ochei wrote: I'm deeply conflicted. On one had I want the illusion but i also want to act in accordance with the truth. Ah, there's your problem. "The truth" is likely unknowable. "The illusion" is what's knowable - so why denigrate it? Brent -- You received

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 5/14/2014 11:30 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On 15 May 2014 16:24, meekerdb mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> wrote: On 5/14/2014 9:51 PM, Dennis Ochei wrote: But then the identity relationship is no longer transitive... Suppose a brave officer to have been flogged when a boy a

Re: Video of VCR

On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 6:34:55 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 14 May 2014, at 03:45, Craig Weinberg wrote: > > I'm showing that authenticity can be empirically demonstrated, and that > the failure of logic to detect the significance of authenticity can be > empirically demonstrated

Re: Is Consciousness Computable?

On Wed, May 14, 2014 at 8:31 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 14 May 2014, at 09:36, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > > > > On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 10:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> >> On 12 May 2014, at 16:12, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, May 11, 2014 at 9:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >

Re: Rat Park

Much appreciated Telmo. What this highlights is something I've always felt very strongly and that is the role of education in helping people to deal with their urges and their impulses. Unfortunately education simply toes the political line of prohibitionism. This for me is one of the saddest th

Re: Rat Park

On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 5:41 AM, Russell Standish wrote: > On Thu, May 15, 2014 at 01:51:06PM +1200, LizR wrote: > > That's odd. I found it easy to read (the size of the images adjusted to > > fill my browser window, so if it was too small I could expand the window) > > and my mouse wheel scrolled

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 15 May 2014, at 05:43, Dennis Ochei wrote: You can still care if you die normally but something like the swampman thought experiment is just as good as ordinary survival under Parfit's view, which a reductionist I feel is forced to accept. You care that you keep experiencing but there i

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 15 May 2014, at 06:51, Dennis Ochei wrote: But then the identity relationship is no longer transitive... Ypou mention Parfit, which put the identity on the person series, and that makes it non transitive. Take the step 3 of the UDA, in the paper I refer you too, and which is supposed t

Re: Open Individualism and Self Interest

On 15 May 2014, at 04:26, Dennis Ochei wrote: G*, G, arithmetical hypostases, PA, ZF? I must not know the lingo round here In your answer to Liz, you show that you know what ZF (and ZFC) are, and what PA is. G and G* are the sound and complete modal logic describing the behavior of the