Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2015-03-26 13:02 GMT+01:00 Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au: Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-03-26 12:13 GMT+01:00 Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-03-26 8:05 GMT+01:00 Bruce Kellett This comes back to my original question:

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Bruce Kellett
Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-03-26 8:05 GMT+01:00 Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au: This comes back to my original question: since all possible programs are run by the dovetailer, how do we ensure that conscious beings see an ordered and

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2015-03-26 12:13 GMT+01:00 Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au: Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-03-26 8:05 GMT+01:00 Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au: This comes back to my original question: since all possible programs are run by the

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Bruce Kellett
Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-03-26 12:13 GMT+01:00 Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-03-26 8:05 GMT+01:00 Bruce Kellett This comes back to my original question: since all possible programs are run by the dovetailer,

Re: Life in the Islamic State for women

2015-03-26 Thread spudboy100 via Everything List
Well, its not the new jihadists I blame, but the (yes) leftist academics, politicians, and news thugs, that have long, empowered, and made excuses for these aggressors. My suspicion is that they see the jihadists worldwide as being able to topple their shared capitalist enemies. Why else would

Re: Life in the Islamic State for women

2015-03-26 Thread Alberto G. Corona
spudboy. Well said. Indeed, there are a massive change in vote from the extreme left to nationalism in countries like France, out of Fear of Islam based on direct personal experiences. (In France the islam is something that you watch everyday even if you have the TV switched off). The problem is

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread LizR
On 27 March 2015 at 17:35, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 3/26/2015 7:16 PM, LizR wrote: On the subject of counterfactual correctness, isn't that the point of Olimpia and Klara? My problem with counterfactual correctness is (probably the same as Maudlin's?) -- how does the system

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Bruce Kellett
Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Friday, March 27, 2015, LizR lizj...@gmail.com On 27 March 2015 at 01:02, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-03-26 12:13 GMT+01:00 Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Friday, March 27, 2015, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: On 27 March 2015 at 01:02, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','bhkell...@optusnet.com.au'); wrote: Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-03-26 12:13 GMT+01:00 Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread meekerdb
On 3/26/2015 7:16 PM, LizR wrote: On the subject of counterfactual correctness, isn't that the point of Olimpia and Klara? My problem with counterfactual correctness is (probably the same as Maudlin's?) -- how does the system /know/ it's counterfactually correct if it doesn't actually pass

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread LizR
PGC - I think you may have skimmed over too much for me to grasp what you're saying. But maybe not. So does contradicition arise because you assume to start with that consciousness is created by computation, then show that it would also (assuming physical supervenience) arise from something

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread LizR
On 27 March 2015 at 17:13, Platonist Guitar Cowboy multiplecit...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 3:16 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: PGC - I think you may have skimmed over too much for me to grasp what you're saying. But maybe not. So does contradicition arise because you

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Bruce Kellett
LizR wrote: On the subject of counterfactual correctness, isn't that the point of Olimpia and Klara? My problem with counterfactual correctness is (probably the same as Maudlin's?) -- how does the system /know/ it's counterfactually correct if it doesn't actually pass through any of the

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 3:16 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: PGC - I think you may have skimmed over too much for me to grasp what you're saying. But maybe not. So does contradicition arise because you assume to start with that consciousness is created by computation, then show that it

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-03-26 Thread Quentin Anciaux
And round and round we go... In a measurement setup experiment, if MWI is true (either it is with differentiation or splitting) the N liar clark after the experiment will see one definite result, none will have a superposed memory with multiple results existing in their mind, the unequivocal liar

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 24 Mar 2015, at 04:19, Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 10:10:37AM +1100, Bruce Kellett wrote: Russell Standish wrote: On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 11:48:52AM +1300, LizR wrote: On 23 March 2015 at 16:09, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: That's where the MGA comes in. It

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-03-26 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 1:06 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: the N liar clark after the experiment will see [...] Hey Quentin I just figured out a new and really cool thought experiment, suppose you were to fuck yourself and the horse you rode in on, what do you suppose would

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-03-26 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: According to Quantum Mechanics depending on circumstances sometimes you get interference and sometimes you don't, and we're talking about analogies here and what it would take for the copying machine stuff to be a good analogy for the

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-03-26 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2015-03-26 18:15 GMT+01:00 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com: On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 1:06 PM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: the N liar clark after the experiment will see [...] Hey Quentin I just figured out a new and really cool thought experiment, suppose you were to fuck

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 26 Mar 2015, at 07:38, Bruce Kellett wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 24 Mar 2015, at 06:31, Bruce Kellett wrote: meekerdb wrote: On 3/23/2015 10:05 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: In fact, I can write computer programs where the laws of physics change from instant to instant. Why do we not

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 26 Mar 2015, at 13:06, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-03-26 13:02 GMT+01:00 Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au: Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-03-26 12:13 GMT+01:00 Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-03-26 8:05 GMT+01:00 Bruce Kellett

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 26 Mar 2015, at 08:05, Bruce Kellett wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Mar 2015, at 12:25, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Multiple realisation does not undermine physical supervenience... what undermine it, is that you're forced to accept (with the movie graph argument) that the consciousness

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 25 Mar 2015, at 21:08, meekerdb wrote: On 3/25/2015 9:15 AM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-03-25 16:35 GMT+01:00 Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.com: On Wednesday, March 25, 2015, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-03-25 12:25 GMT+01:00 Quentin Anciaux

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 24 Mar 2015, at 04:39, LizR wrote: Apologies Movie Graph Argument - from Bruno's 2004 paper I believe. Actually, MGA appears in step 8, but is not explained in the sane04 paper. I only referred to it. The original publication is Marchal, B., informatique et théorie de l'esprit, Acte

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 24 Mar 2015, at 01:07, meekerdb wrote: On 3/23/2015 3:48 PM, LizR wrote: On 23 March 2015 at 16:09, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: That's where the MGA comes in. It purports to show that one of the possible substrates is inert matter, which seems so absurd that we should

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Bruce Kellett
PGC wrote: On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 12:43:04 AM UTC+1, Bruce wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Mar 2015, at 16:35, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: If my mind is being run on two separate computers, I can't know which one of the two, and I can't say that my last

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: PGC wrote: Why or how is anybody arguing that problem is generated or solved by how somebody feels about it? It's via contradiction/standard reductio: assume conclusion false and negation to be true, and

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread LizR
Actually I'd like to know where the contradiction is too (and I have read Bruno's papers, and The Amoeba's Secret, and of course Bruno has done his best to teach me some modal logic...) ...but I still have difficulty following the MGA. It has been explained (at least at times) as showing that if

Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-03-26 Thread LizR
On 27 March 2015 at 05:53, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Mar 25, 2015 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: According to Quantum Mechanics depending on circumstances sometimes you get interference and sometimes you don't, and we're talking about analogies here and what it

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 26 Mar 2015, at 12:13, Bruce Kellett wrote: Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-03-26 8:05 GMT+01:00 Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au : This comes back to my original question: since all possible programs are run by the dovetailer, how do we ensure

Re: Life in the Islamic State for women

2015-03-26 Thread LizR
The problem is that this puts all the power in the hands of big business, who don't have the interests of anyone but their shareholders at heart. Also it leads to more repressive laws. This is in fact the destruction of western democracy that is the aim of the jihadists and so on (which is in turn

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread meekerdb
On 3/26/2015 8:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Mar 2015, at 16:35, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Wednesday, March 25, 2015, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com mailto:allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-03-25 12:25 GMT+01:00 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread meekerdb
On 3/26/2015 12:03 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Agreed. But the question is more between :are we fundamentally mammals living on earth, or are we universal numbers living in arithmetic, deluded by oracles or other universal numbers. That seems to me to be the same as the question am I a brain in

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread LizR
On 27 March 2015 at 01:02, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-03-26 12:13 GMT+01:00 Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-03-26 8:05 GMT+01:00 Bruce Kellett This comes back to my original

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Bruce Kellett
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Mar 2015, at 12:13, Bruce Kellett wrote: Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2015-03-26 8:05 GMT+01:00 Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au: This comes back to my original question: since all possible programs are run by the

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Bruce Kellett
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Mar 2015, at 16:35, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: If my mind is being run on two separate computers, I can't know which one of the two, and I can't say that my last remembered moment was run on one or other or my next anticipated moment will be run on one or other.

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread PGC
On Friday, March 27, 2015 at 12:43:04 AM UTC+1, Bruce wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Mar 2015, at 16:35, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: If my mind is being run on two separate computers, I can't know which one of the two, and I can't say that my last remembered moment was run on

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Bruce Kellett
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Mar 2015, at 08:05, Bruce Kellett wrote: I simply say, so what! Counterfactual equivalence does not have any independent justification, and it is highly unlike to be sensible, even in the context of computationalism. You are quick here. I might explain the

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Bruce Kellett
Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: PGC wrote: Why or how is anybody arguing that problem is generated or solved by how somebody feels about it? It's via

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread meekerdb
On 3/26/2015 6:04 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Mar 2015, at 08:05, Bruce Kellett wrote: I simply say, so what! Counterfactual equivalence does not have any independent justification, and it is highly unlike to be sensible, even in the context of computationalism.

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Platonist Guitar Cowboy
On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 2:09 AM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote: On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 1:10 AM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au wrote: PGC wrote: Why or how is anybody arguing that

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Bruce Kellett
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 24 Mar 2015, at 06:31, Bruce Kellett wrote: meekerdb wrote: On 3/23/2015 10:05 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: In fact, I can write computer programs where the laws of physics change from instant to instant. Why do we not experience these things? Aye, there's the rub.

Re: Turing Test (was: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness)

2015-03-26 Thread LizR
On 25 March 2015 at 15:15, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: If I ask you assuming Eastern Standard Time did the Big Bang happen on a Thursday? The ultimate version of Last Thursdayism ? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List

Re: Life in the Islamic State for women

2015-03-26 Thread Kim Jones
On 26 Mar 2015, at 2:21 pm, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote: http://www.raqqa-sl.com/en/?p=857 So most of these women are Brits? WTF! Makes your blood run cold. People are turning into zombies left right and centre. There is absolutely nothing whatsoever in organised religion for women. This

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Bruce Kellett
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Mar 2015, at 12:25, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Multiple realisation does not undermine physical supervenience... what undermine it, is that you're forced to accept (with the movie graph argument) that the consciousness is supervening on the movie + broken gate... which

Re: Life in the Islamic State for women

2015-03-26 Thread Alberto G. Corona
I don´t know what to choose either the civilization of the horde of cavemen or the set of pseudo enlightened idiots that renegate of everything except themselves, that defecate over their ancestors and judge the world from the stratosphere in which they live, with little or no knowledge, maybe

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2015-03-26 8:05 GMT+01:00 Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au: Bruno Marchal wrote: On 25 Mar 2015, at 12:25, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Multiple realisation does not undermine physical supervenience... what undermine it, is that you're forced to accept (with the movie graph argument)

Re: The MGA revisited

2015-03-26 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 25 Mar 2015, at 16:35, Stathis Papaioannou wrote: On Wednesday, March 25, 2015, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: 2015-03-25 12:25 GMT+01:00 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com: 2015-03-25 12:09 GMT+01:00 Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au: Quentin Anciaux wrote: Le 25