from:"Chris de Morsella"

Re: Does time flow?

2020-04-13 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

I guess it boils down to the question: is information purely abstract and
dimensionless or not. If the encoding of information is not purely abstract
then how did the universe at the very moment of creation, when all spacetime
was contained within an (almost) infinitely tiny dot, already contain all the
information that it now contains some 13.8 billion years after the big bang?
Assuming, for the sake of argument that new information, which did not exist
before is created with the passage of time how can that be recociled with the
block universe hypothesis?
I am not convinced either way, and don't have a dog in this game, but this
strikes me as an interesting question to ask.
-Chris

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 5:05 AM, Lawrence
Crowell wrote: I thought we already
discussed this. The question I have about this is whether numbers involved with
measurements are categorically equivalent to physical reality. These numbers
are something which occurs in a calibrated measurement. Gisin appears to be
making an equivalency between numbers and physical reality, This is where I
find open questions on the relevancy of this work.
LC
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 9:43:45 PM UTC-5, cdemorsella wrote:
Read a thought provoking hypothesis proposed by Swiss physicist Nicolas Gisin
in four papers he authored that questions the widely accepted block universe
model of Relativity on a mathematical basis, centered on the proposition that
infinitely precise real numbers do not exist in nature.
Mathematics assumes the existence of infinitely precise real numbers as a
given; Nicolas Gisin questions that assumption. Instead Grisin argues that a
hundred year old branch of mathematics called Intuitionust Mathematics that
rejects the existence of numbers with infinite digitsvof precision is used to
describe the evolution of physical systems, it becomes clear that time really
passes and that new information is being created.
The block universe model of spacetime argues for a static -- pre-ordained --
universe in which past, present and future are illusions and all that is always
has been.
Modern information theory however shows that information is physical, it
requires both energy and space. He questions how a block universe hypothesis
could contain -- essentially infinite -- all the information encoded in the
block universe in the initial state at the moment of the big bang.
Intuitionist mathematics accepts the reality of irrational values such as say
pi that have an infinite series of digits of precision because a formula exists
that can in theory calculate its value to any degree of precision.
But say we have an arbitrary value x that is initially measured to some point
of precision of x=0.4 (the example given) and that this value unfurls to
greater and greater degrees of precision. Perhaps the series of 9s continues
forever and thus x is exactly equal to 1/2, but if at any point a digit of
lower value is encountered this quantity will forever be less than 1/2. Before
that happens we cannot know what x is equal to, our knowledge depends on this
unfolding sequence.
"But before that happens, when all we know is 0.4999, “we don’t know whether or
not a digit other than 9 will ever show up,” explained Carl Posy, a philosopher
of mathematics at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and a leading expert on
intuitionist math. “At the time we consider this x, we cannot say that x is
less than ½, nor can we say that x equals ½.” The proposition “x is equal to ½”
is not true, and neither is its negation. The law of the excluded middle
doesn’t hold."
"In other words, the world is indeterministic; the future is open. Time, Gisin
said, “is not unfolding like a movie in the cinema. It is really a creative
unfolding. The new digits really get created as time passes.”"
Here is the link to the article, for those interested: https://www.
quantamagazine.org/does-time- really-flow-new-clues-come-
from-a-century-old-approach- to-math-20200407/

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Re: COVID-19 needs a Manhattan Project

2020-04-09 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

Thanks Telmo,
this thing is way worse than the flu!

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 12:56 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: 
  
#yiv8943505836 p.yiv8943505836MsoNormal, #yiv8943505836 
p.yiv8943505836MsoNoSpacing{margin:0;}Oh man... I am relived to read that you 
are recovering. Hope that you are 100% healthy soon!

Best wishes,
Telmo

On Wed, Apr 8, 2020, at 01:39, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

This virus is, for some, very serious. I live in one of the first affected 
areas in King County, WA just miles from the epicenter.

My personal anecdotal experience:

My family contracted it, we are in isolation. For my wife and I, it was 
serious, especially for me as it progressed into my lungs. Last weekend was 
terrifying as my condition was rapidly deteriorating and I was struggling to 
breath. My blood oxygen levels -- we have a sensor unit at home -- dropped 
below 90 and my pulse rate, which for me, at rest, is normally around 60 went 
up to above 80. Pleuritis set in and breathing felt like broken glass shards 
were in the bottom of my lungs. At the covid emergency clinic I  went to that 
my provider has setup the doctors were worried and wanted me to go to the 
hospital. It looked like pneumonia might have set in, but x-rays, they took, 
thankfully ruled that out. 

I am slowly recovering and my blood oxygen levels have climbed up out of the 
real danger zone where sepsis can begin occurring. They fluctuate in a band 
between 92-95, and my resting pulse rate has come back down towards 60 again. 
Slowly but surely I am breathing easier and feel my health & life returning. 
The pain from the pleuritis has gone way down as well.

I am lucky to have very good health insurance and to be working for a large 
software company here that has been supportive as I've gone through this 
ordeal and to be in a role that is important especially now. The division I 
work for enables enterprises to operate in the cloud by providing a hybrid 
identity service that can protect access to all their on-premises 
applications/services by enabling authentication/authorization from remote 
users through our cloud.

My wife did not get as sick as I did, but we are both suffering fatigue; our 16 
year old daughter probably got this, but hardly felt anything.

For many people this may not be that serious, but others are dying.

Please stay safe and do your part to help hold the transmission rate down in 
order to give our over-taxed medical systems the ability to handle the critical 
load.

Last weekend was terrifying for me at a personal level, as I -- like everyone 
else -- saw thise images of dead bodies piled up in make shift morgues 
thinkibg I could be one of them.

-Chris



A single vaccine factory can cost half a billion dollars and 44 vaccines are in 
early stage development, and even after you find one that works and is safe 
you're going to need billions of doses to vaccinate everybody. Because nobody 
else is doing anything Bill Gates picked 7 out of those 44 that he thought were 
most promising and decided to build factories right now for all 7 with full 
knowledge that he will end up wasting billions of dollars. Gates said:

"Even though we’ll end up picking at most two of them, we’re going to fund 
factories for all seven, just so that we don’t waste time in serially saying, 
‘OK, which vaccine works?’ and then building the factory. We can start now by 
building the facilities where these vaccines will be made. Because many of the 
top candidates are made using unique equipment, we’ll have to build facilities 
for each of them, knowing that some won’t get used. Private companies can’t 
take that kind of risk, but the federal government can." 

Gates can take the risk but so can the federal government, and they can do 
things on an even larger scale than he can. And we're not going to get back to 
normal until a vaccine is found and we're mass producing it. The following is 
from an editorial in the March 27 2020 issue of the journal Science:

==
"There is an unprecedented race to develop a vaccine against severe acute 
respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). With at least 44 vaccines in 
early-stage development, what outcome can we expect? Will the first vaccine to 
cross the finish line be the safest and most effective? Or will it be the most 
well-funded vaccines that first become available, or perhaps those using 
vaccine technologies with the fewest regulatory hurdles? The answer could be a 
vaccine that ticks all these boxes. If we want to maximize the chances for 
success, however, and have enough doses to end the coronavirus disease 2019 
(COVID-19) pandemic, current piecemeal efforts won't be enough. If ever there 
was a case for a coordinated global vaccine development effort using a “big 
science” approach, it is now.


There is a strong track record for publicly funded, large-scale scientific 
endeavors that bring togeth

Re: COVID-19 needs a Manhattan Project

2020-04-08 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

This is week three for me on the Covid19 trajectory, and week 5 for my wife. No 
illusions here. 
 
  On Wed, Apr 8, 2020 at 7:11 AM, Lawrence 
Crowell wrote:   I have had symptoms of 
Covid-19, but they have been comparatively mild. They episodically return 
though, such as Monday I had the dry cough and tight chest feeling return. This 
is if anything somewhat persistent. It sounds though as if you are on the 
down-slope of this, which I will warn you is a long path, 
LC
On Tuesday, April 7, 2020 at 8:39:10 PM UTC-5, cdemorsella wrote:
This virus is, for some, very serious. I live in one of the first affected 
areas in King County, WA just miles from the epicenter.
My personal anecdotal experience:
My family contracted it, we are in isolation. For my wife and I, it was 
serious, especially for me as it progressed into my lungs. Last weekend was 
terrifying as my condition was rapidly deteriorating and I was struggling to 
breath. My blood oxygen levels -- we have a sensor unit at home -- dropped 
below 90 and my pulse rate, which for me, at rest, is normally around 60 went 
up to above 80. Pleuritis set in and breathing felt like broken glass shards 
were in the bottom of my lungs. At the covid emergency clinic I  went to that 
my provider has setup the doctors were worried and wanted me to go to the 
hospital. It looked like pneumonia might have set in, but x-rays, they took, 
thankfully ruled that out. 
I am slowly recovering and my blood oxygen levels have climbed up out of the 
real danger zone where sepsis can begin occurring. They fluctuate in a band 
between 92-95, and my resting pulse rate has come back down towards 60 again. 
Slowly but surely I am breathing easier and feel my health & life returning. 
The pain from the pleuritis has gone way down as well.
I am lucky to have very good health insurance and to be working for a large 
software company here that has been supportive as I've gone through this 
ordeal and to be in a role that is important especially now. The division I 
work for enables enterprises to operate in the cloud by providing a hybrid 
identity service that can protect access to all their on-premises 
applications/services by enabling authentication/authorization from remote 
users through our cloud.
My wife did not get as sick as I did, but we are both suffering fatigue; our 16 
year old daughter probably got this, but hardly felt anything.
For many people this may not be that serious, but others are dying.
Please stay safe and do your part to help hold the transmission rate down in 
order to give our over-taxed medical systems the ability to handle the critical 
load.
Last weekend was terrifying for me at a personal level, as I -- like everyone 
else -- saw thise images of dead bodies piled up in make shift morgues 
thinkibg I could be one of them.
-Chris
 
 
 On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 3:37 PM, John Clark wrote:  A 
single vaccine factory can cost half a billion dollars and 44 vaccines are in 
early stage development, and even after you find one that works and is safe 
you're going to need billions of doses to vaccinate everybody. Because nobody 
else is doing anything Bill Gates picked 7 out of those 44 that he thought were 
most promising and decided to build factories right now for all 7 with full 
knowledge that he will end up wasting billions of dollars. Gates said:
"Even though we’ll end up picking at most two of them, we’re going to fund 
factories for all seven, just so that we don’t waste time in serially saying, 
‘OK, which vaccine works?’ and then building the factory. We can start now by 
building the facilities where these vaccines will be made. Because many of the 
top candidates are made using unique equipment, we’ll have to build facilities 
for each of them, knowing that some won’t get used. Private companies can’t 
take that kind of risk, but the federal government can." 
Gates can take the risk but so can the federal government, and they can do 
things on an even larger scale than he can. And we're not going to get back to 
normal until a vaccine is found and we're mass producing it. The following is 
from an editorial in the March 27 2020 issue of the journal Science:=="There is 
an unprecedented race to develop a vaccine against severe acute respiratory 
syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). With at least 44 vaccines in early-stage 
development, what outcome can we expect? Will the first vaccine to cross the 
finish line be the safest and most effective? Or will it be the most 
well-funded vaccines that first become available, or perhaps those using 
vaccine technologies with the fewest regulatory hurdles? The answer could be a 
vaccine that ticks all these boxes. If we want to maximize the chances for 
success, however, and have enough doses to end the coronavirus disease 2019 
(COVID-19) pandemic, current piecemeal efforts won't be enough. If ever there 
was a case for a coordinated global vaccine development effort using a “big 
science”

RE: Does time flow?

2020-04-08 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

Read a thought provoking hypothesis proposed by Swiss physicist Nicolas Gisin 
in four papers he authored that questions the widely accepted block universe 
model of Relativity on a mathematical basis, centered on the proposition that 
infinitely precise real numbers do not exist in nature. 
Mathematics assumes the existence of infinitely precise real numbers as a 
given; Nicolas Gisin questions that assumption. Instead Grisin argues that a 
hundred year old branch of mathematics called Intuitionust Mathematics that 
rejects the existence of numbers with infinite digitsvof precision is used to 
describe the evolution of physical systems, it becomes clear that time really 
passes and that new information is being created.
The block universe model of spacetime argues for a static -- pre-ordained -- 
universe in which past, present and future are illusions and all that is always 
has been.
Modern information theory however shows that information is physical, it 
requires both energy and space. He questions how a block universe hypothesis 
could contain -- essentially infinite -- all the information encoded in the 
block universe in the initial state at the moment of the big bang. 
Intuitionist mathematics accepts the reality of irrational values such as say 
pi that have an infinite series of digits of precision because a formula exists 
that can in theory calculate its value to any degree of precision.
But say we have an arbitrary value x that is initially measured to some point 
of precision of x=0.4 (the example given) and that this value unfurls to 
greater and greater degrees of precision. Perhaps the series of 9s continues 
forever and thus x is exactly equal to 1/2, but if at any point a digit of 
lower value is encountered this quantity will forever be less than 1/2.  Before 
that happens we cannot know what x is equal to, our knowledge depends on this 
unfolding sequence.
"But before that happens, when all we know is 0.4999, “we don’t know whether or 
not a digit other than 9 will ever show up,” explained Carl Posy, a philosopher 
of mathematics at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem and a leading expert on 
intuitionist math. “At the time we consider this x, we cannot say that x is 
less than ½, nor can we say that x equals ½.” The proposition “x is equal to ½” 
is not true, and neither is its negation. The law of the excluded middle 
doesn’t hold."
"In other words, the world is indeterministic; the future is open. Time, Gisin 
said, “is not unfolding like a movie in the cinema. It is really a creative 
unfolding. The new digits really get created as time passes.”"
Here is the link to the article, for those interested: 
https://www.quantamagazine.org/does-time-really-flow-new-clues-come-from-a-century-old-approach-to-math-20200407/

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Re: COVID-19 needs a Manhattan Project

2020-04-07 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

This virus is, for some, very serious. I live in one of the first affected 
areas in King County, WA just miles from the epicenter.
My personal anecdotal experience:
My family contracted it, we are in isolation. For my wife and I, it was 
serious, especially for me as it progressed into my lungs. Last weekend was 
terrifying as my condition was rapidly deteriorating and I was struggling to 
breath. My blood oxygen levels -- we have a sensor unit at home -- dropped 
below 90 and my pulse rate, which for me, at rest, is normally around 60 went 
up to above 80. Pleuritis set in and breathing felt like broken glass shards 
were in the bottom of my lungs. At the covid emergency clinic I  went to that 
my provider has setup the doctors were worried and wanted me to go to the 
hospital. It looked like pneumonia might have set in, but x-rays, they took, 
thankfully ruled that out. 
I am slowly recovering and my blood oxygen levels have climbed up out of the 
real danger zone where sepsis can begin occurring. They fluctuate in a band 
between 92-95, and my resting pulse rate has come back down towards 60 again. 
Slowly but surely I am breathing easier and feel my health & life returning. 
The pain from the pleuritis has gone way down as well.
I am lucky to have very good health insurance and to be working for a large 
software company here that has been supportive as I've gone through this 
ordeal and to be in a role that is important especially now. The division I 
work for enables enterprises to operate in the cloud by providing a hybrid 
identity service that can protect access to all their on-premises 
applications/services by enabling authentication/authorization from remote 
users through our cloud.
My wife did not get as sick as I did, but we are both suffering fatigue; our 16 
year old daughter probably got this, but hardly felt anything.
For many people this may not be that serious, but others are dying.
Please stay safe and do your part to help hold the transmission rate down in 
order to give our over-taxed medical systems the ability to handle the critical 
load.
Last weekend was terrifying for me at a personal level, as I -- like everyone 
else -- saw thise images of dead bodies piled up in make shift morgues 
thinkibg I could be one of them.
-Chris
 
 
  On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 3:37 PM, John Clark wrote:   A 
single vaccine factory can cost half a billion dollars and 44 vaccines are in 
early stage development, and even after you find one that works and is safe 
you're going to need billions of doses to vaccinate everybody. Because nobody 
else is doing anything Bill Gates picked 7 out of those 44 that he thought were 
most promising and decided to build factories right now for all 7 with full 
knowledge that he will end up wasting billions of dollars. Gates said:
"Even though we’ll end up picking at most two of them, we’re going to fund 
factories for all seven, just so that we don’t waste time in serially saying, 
‘OK, which vaccine works?’ and then building the factory. We can start now by 
building the facilities where these vaccines will be made. Because many of the 
top candidates are made using unique equipment, we’ll have to build facilities 
for each of them, knowing that some won’t get used. Private companies can’t 
take that kind of risk, but the federal government can." 
Gates can take the risk but so can the federal government, and they can do 
things on an even larger scale than he can. And we're not going to get back to 
normal until a vaccine is found and we're mass producing it. The following is 
from an editorial in the March 27 2020 issue of the journal Science:=="There is 
an unprecedented race to develop a vaccine against severe acute respiratory 
syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2). With at least 44 vaccines in early-stage 
development, what outcome can we expect? Will the first vaccine to cross the 
finish line be the safest and most effective? Or will it be the most 
well-funded vaccines that first become available, or perhaps those using 
vaccine technologies with the fewest regulatory hurdles? The answer could be a 
vaccine that ticks all these boxes. If we want to maximize the chances for 
success, however, and have enough doses to end the coronavirus disease 2019 
(COVID-19) pandemic, current piecemeal efforts won't be enough. If ever there 
was a case for a coordinated global vaccine development effort using a “big 
science” approach, it is now.


There is a strong track record for publicly funded, large-scale scientific 
endeavors that bring together global expertise and resources toward a common 
goal. The Manhattan Project brought about nuclear weapons quickly (although 
with terrible implications for humanity) through an approach that led to 
countless changes in how scientists from many countries work together. The 
Human Genome Project and CERN (the European Organization for Nuclear Research) 
engaged scientists from around the world to drive basic research

Re: has evidence pointing to the exisrance of a new boson been found. See arvix link to paper

2019-11-22 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

Yes... it does seem analagous to the muon moment which caused Rabi to utter
that quip.
I am always fascinated by evidence that hints at something deeper and outside
of the zone of competency of our current best theoretical frameworks and mental
superstructures.
An endless re-confirmation of the Standard Model becomes just more of the same.
Evidence that challenges our base-line assumptions is far more interesting, for
it forces us to re-think that which we thought we knew.
-chris

On Fri, Nov 22, 2019 at 5:42 PM, Lawrence
Crowell wrote: I guess as I. Rabi said,
"Who ordered that?"
LC

On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 7:09:31 PM UTC-6, cdemorsella wrote:

New evidence supporting the existence of the hypothetic X17 particle

A.J. Krasznahorkay, M. Csatlos, L. Csige, J. Gulyas, M. Koszta, B. Szihalmi, J.
Timar, D.S. Firak, A. Nagy, N.J. Sas, A. Krasznahorkay(Submitted on 23 Oct 2019)
We observed electron-positron pairs from the electro-magnetically forbidden M0
transition depopulating the 21.01 MeV 0− state in 4He. A peak was observed in
their e+e− angular correlations at 115∘ with 7.2σ significance, and could be
described by assuming the creation and subsequent decay of a light particle
with mass of mXc2=16.84±0.16(stat)±0.20( syst) MeV and ΓX= 3.9×10−5 eV.
According to the mass, it is likely the same X17 particle, which we recently
suggested [Phys. Rev. Lett. 116, 052501 (2016)] for describing the anomaly
observed in 8Be.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1910. 10459

The values for the hypothetical x17 boson that this team observed with the
Helium (4) source aligns closely to those observed earlier with the Berylium
(8) source.

Here is their summary:

In summary, we have observed
e+e− pairs from an electro-magnetically forbidden M0 transition depopulating
the 21.01 MeV 0− state in 4He. The energy sum of the pairs corresponds to the
energy of the transition. The measured e+e−angular correlation for the pairs
shows a peak at 115∘, supporting the creation and decay of the X17 particle
with mass of mXc2=16.84±0.16(stat)±0.20( syst)MeV. This mass agrees nicely with
the value of mXc2=17.01 ±0.16 MeV we previously derived in the 8Be experiment
kr16 ; kra17 ; kra1 9 . The partial width of the X17 particle decay is esimated
to be: ΓX= 3.9×10−5 eV. We are expecting more, independent experimental results
to come for the X17 particle in the coming years.

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RE: has evidence pointing to the exisrance of a new boson been found. See arvix link to paper

2019-11-20 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

New evidence supporting the existence of the hypothetic X17 particle

A.J. Krasznahorkay, M. Csatlos, L. Csige, J. Gulyas, M. Koszta, B. Szihalmi, J.
Timar, D.S. Firak, A. Nagy, N.J. Sas, A. Krasznahorkay(Submitted on 23 Oct 2019)
We observed electron-positron pairs from the electro-magnetically forbidden M0
transition depopulating the 21.01 MeV 0− state in 4He. A peak was observed in
their e+e− angular correlations at 115∘ with 7.2σ significance, and could be
described by assuming the creation and subsequent decay of a light particle
with mass of mXc2=16.84±0.16(stat)±0.20(syst) MeV and ΓX= 3.9×10−5 eV.
According to the mass, it is likely the same X17 particle, which we recently
suggested [Phys. Rev. Lett. 116, 052501 (2016)] for describing the anomaly
observed in 8Be.

https://arxiv.org/abs/1910.10459

The values for the hypothetical x17 boson that this team observed with the
Helium (4) source aligns closely to those observed earlier with the Berylium
(8) source.

Here is their summary:

In summary, we have observed
e+e− pairs from an electro-magnetically forbidden M0 transition depopulating
the 21.01 MeV 0− state in 4He. The energy sum of the pairs corresponds to the
energy of the transition. The measured e+e−angular correlation for the pairs
shows a peak at 115∘, supporting the creation and decay of the X17 particle
with mass of mXc2=16.84±0.16(stat)±0.20(syst)MeV. This mass agrees nicely with
the value of mXc2=17.01 ±0.16 MeV we previously derived in the 8Be experiment
kr16 ; kra17 ; kra19 . The partial width of the X17 particle decay is esimated
to be: ΓX= 3.9×10−5 eV. We are expecting more, independent experimental results
to come for the X17 particle in the coming years.

Re: anrcho-libertarianism

2019-06-07 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

 Well said Lawrence I used to become pulled in to the churning (and 
pointless) vortex of politics, but life is far too short for that exercise in 
futility.
Far better to open oneself instead to the transcendent ineffable experience of 
the many wonders of life and of the immediate impactful experience of living 
life, alive with spontaneous being, than to waste endless hours in "debate" 
debate that changes nothing except raising blood pressure.
Cheers,Chris

  On Fri, Jun 7, 2019 at 5:33 PM, Lawrence 
Crowell wrote:   The situation is hopeless. I 
correspond with someone who is a communist, and have gotten into some 
arguments. The argument here, though the words are different, has much the same 
sort of thinking. Politics in general is a sort of brain infection that causes 
neuron to seize up when any cognitive dissonance occurs, and these neuron go 
into an overdrive with various output that has no bounds of actual reason or 
limits on what is preposterous. The ideological meme is "uber alles" and it is 
upheld for a fortress of words. Religion has this property. 
LC

On Thursday, June 6, 2019 at 7:43:35 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:

 On 6/6/2019 3:53 PM, John Clark wrote:

   On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List 
 wrote:

>> There will be a Private Protection Agency  protecting Jews and if there is 
>> another one that is trying to kill them then the employees of both agencies 
>> will have very dangerous jobs and both will expect to be very well payed . 

  > Those are called armies.  So why didn't the Jews have an army?   

  The Jews didn't have an army to protect them because of government,  a 
government that was powerful enough to enforce its decrees, such as there can 
only be one army and they were the only one that could conscript men into it, 
and the only one that could make laws, and the only one that could collect 
taxers to pay for the army.  

 And why would it be any different if the Nazi PPA decided to collect taxes 
from the Jews?  It would be a government powerful enough to do so.   As long as 
they live together in the same area they will have to have a lot of the same 
laws.

 > What you're suggesting is every man for himself.  

  No, I'm just suggesting if we were starting from scratch it would be better 
if the group one belong to was not forced and was based on more than just 
geographical location. I'm suggesting it would be better if people had some 
choice about which set of laws they would obey. Obviously the laws can't be 
tailor made specifically for just one individual like your "every man for 
himself" straw man, that would never work, but it's weird people worry so much 
about corporate monopolies but are oblivious to the largest monopoly of them 
all, the government.

 They worry more about corporate monopolies because (1) There are not the 
checks and balances of our government.  The board is elected and they appoint a 
CEO.  The documents of incorporation, even if they say something about fairness 
and rights, are not overseen by any courts.  So it's effectively an oligarchy 
that elects a dictator.  (2) Big corporations wield more economic power and 
influence than many nation states, yet they are narrowly focused on making 
money.  They're not going to provide education or clean up the environment or 
provide health care.  Their officers only have a fiduciary responsibilty.  So 
one they can do with their economic power is capture government and thus wield 
both economic and military and law enforcement power. 

   And if you took all the evil every corporation has ever done and 
concentrated it into one spot it would amount to little more than rudeness 
compared to the horrors committed by government;

 You're ignoring the role that corporations have played in supporting those 
governments.  Mussolini said that fascism would be better called corporatism 
because it was the merging of corporate and state power.

   yes Facebook may not have treated the private information of its users with 
enough respect but at least it didn't stick them into ovens.   

 But Ligget and Meyers gave people lung cancer.

  I'm suggesting it would have been nice of the Jews had been given some 
choice. In 1933 if the Nazis didn't have a monopoly on making laws collecting 
taxes conscripting men and forming armies I'm sure the 6 million Jews would 
have chosen a Private Protection Agency that  enforced a law that said you 
can't murder Jews. Unfortunatly the Jews couldn't do that in 1933 due to the 
government monopoly. 

 Sure.  But the Jewish PPA might have decided that it was really a good thing 
to kill Palestinians and take their land.

  > That's my main criticism of libertarianism...it assumes people are just 
motivated by money.  Money's only one form of power.  German soldiers were not 
especially well paid by the Nazis.  

  True, they were payed little and yet Nazi

Re: Black holes and the information paradox

2019-03-12 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List


 
 
  On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 7:04 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote:  
 On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 12:43 PM John Clark  wrote:

On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 8:42 PM Lawrence Crowell 
 wrote:


> all the radiation emitted is entangled with the black hole, which would then 
> mean the entanglement entropy increases beyond the Bekenstein bound. 


Could nature be trying to tell us that the Bekenstein bound is simply wrong and 
spacetime is contentious and can store information at scales even smaller than 
the Planck area? After all as far as I know there is no experimental evidence 
the Bekenstein bound exists or that spacetime ends when things get smaller than 
10^-35 meters.

Points that I have made many times, here and elsewhere. No one is listening, it 
would appear. Actually, though, Penrose has worked this out for himself. See 
"Roads to Reality".
Speaking to this there exists some tantalizing indirect measured evidence for 
the the scale of any structure of spacetime. An ESA satellite (luckily captured 
a distant gamma ray burster event) and was able measure a very powerful and 
also very distant gamma-ray burster across multiple different frequencies as it 
happened -- capturing signal data from gamma ray to x-ray, ultraviet, visible 
light, infrared and various radio frequencies) and using this data was able to 
experimentally establish that spacetime is in fact smooth -- e.g. not pixelated 
-- down to scales far smaller than the Planck scale. 
Even though we cannot directly measure anything at this exceedingly small scale 
(it would require an atom smasher as big as our galaxy) this elegant experiment 
leveraged the more than 9 billion light years that light from this event 
travelled through spacetime in order to reach us 9 billion years later to infer 
these conclusions excluding the possibility of spacetime being pixelated at 
planck scale and even to a degree far smaller than the planck scale. 
The 9 billion light years these various frequency photons travelled was itself 
used as a kind of lever to deduce that which we cannot know directly. 
Basically, if I recall, it was based on the assumption that measurable 
properties of photons ( forget which one exactly) would over vast distances 
become subtly affected by repeatedly crossing pixel boundaries at many various 
pixelation scales of spacetime, which were one by one excluded down to some 
incredibly small scale (if I recall like a trillion times smaller than the 
Planck scale).So far I have not heard of any falsification of the results of 
this experimental measurements. 
Chris de Morsella 
Bruce 

John K Clark



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Re: On the emergence of the solidly real from the realm of the abstract

2019-02-23 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

"Quantum error correction may be how the emergent fabric of space-time achieves 
its robustness, despite being woven out of fragile quantum particles."

Intriguing suggestion for the exquisite first person experiential stability of 
this mysterious space-time emerging from quantum soup in a holographic 
universe if this hypothesis maps to actual reality that is.
The Dong, Silverstein and Torroba’s dS/dS model seems like an important step to 
conceptually enable a holographic universe with emergent properties of 
space-time (and maybe emergent gravity as well) in positively curved space time 
-- e.g. our universe -- in which the boundry layer must, by virtue of its in 
our case ever so slight positive curvature be infinitely in the future. This is 
a problem for any holographic projection (where is the screen... the lower 
dimensional boundary layer, if it is infinitely far off?)

Still wrapping my head around this conceptual model, using mathematics from 
string theory (theoretical Randall-Sundrum throats) to help "uplift" each AdS, 
transforming the two saddle-shaped AdS spaces into bowl-shaped dS spaces, which 
are subsequenyly "glued" together. The CFTs (lower dimensional boundary layers) 
describing both hemispheres become coupled with each other, forming a single 
quantum system that is holographically dual to the entire spherical de Sitter 
space.
Quite a neat trick that may help to further investigate the holographic 
universe hypothesis.
As stated by Patrick Hayden, a theoretical physicist and computer scientist at 
Stanford who studies the AdS/CFT correspondence and its relationship to quantum 
error correction, said he and other experts are mulling over Dong, Silverstein 
and Torroba’s dS/dS model. He said it’s too soon to tell whether insights about 
how space-time is woven and how quantum gravity works in AdS space will carry 
over to a de Sitter model. “But there’s a path — something to be done,” Hayden 
said. “You can formulate concrete mathematical questions. I think a lot is 
going to happen in the next few years.”
How Our Universe Could Emerge as a Hologram | Quanta Magazine  
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How Our Universe Could Emerge as a Hologram | Quanta Magazine
 
Physicists have devised a holographic model of “de Sitter space,” the term for 
a universe like ours, that could give us new clues about the origin of space 
and time.
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Recommend this article, Even just for the Wheeler quote near the end

2019-02-13 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

Two fascinating (and very different) approaches are presented to derive Quantim 
Mechanics main practical tool (e.g. Born's rule). Wonder what some of the 
physicists on here think about this research?
I find the argument that no laws is the fundamental law... and that the 
universe and its laws are emergent guided by subtle mathematical statistical 
phenomena, at the same time both alluring and annoying it is somehow 
unsatisfactory like being served a quite empty plate with nice garnish for 
dinner.
One example of emergence from chaotic conditions is how traffic jams (aka 
density waves) can emerge from chaotic initial conditions, becoming self 
re-enforcing within local domains of influence... for those unlucky to be stuck 
in them. Density wave emergence is seen across scale, for example the spiral 
arms of galaxies can be explained as giant gravitational pile ups with some 
fundamentally similar parallels to say a rush hour traffic jam, except on 
vastly different scales of course and due to other different factors, in the 
galactic case the emergent effects of a vast number of gravitational 
inter-actions as stars migrate through these arms on their grand voyages around 
the galactic core.
This paired with the corollary argument that any attempt to discover a 
fundamental law seems doomed to the infinite regression of then needing to 
explain what this foundation itself rests upon leading to the "it's turtles 
all the way down" hall of mirrors carnival house... head-banger. 
Perhaps, as Wheeler argued, the world is a self-synthesizing system, and the 
seeming order we observe, is emergent... a law without law.
Here is the link to the article:


The Born Rule Has Been Derived From Simple Physical Principles | Quanta 
Magazine  
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The Born Rule Has Been Derived From Simple Physical Principles | Quanta Magazine
 
The new work promises to give researchers a better grip on the core mystery of 
quantum mechanics.
  |   |

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Re: are black holes actually misunderstood wormholes?

2018-06-27 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

Listening in on the direct signals -- e.g. the gravity waves themselves -- that 
are produced in these extreme merger events is probably our best window into 
probing into what is actually occuring to the dynamically interacting forces at 
these energy scales.
No atom smasher we could build can match the scale of say two neutron stars 
merging into a black hole.
I think astronomy, and specifically and especially gravity wave astronomy is 
the most promising future direction of experimentation and falsification of 
dead branches of enquiry in the realm of high energy physics.
I suspect most agree that as LIGO type detectors improve these more subtle 
harmonics, overtones, echoes etc. that may be detected in the signal are going 
to become the basis for evaluation (or re-evaluation) of our current 
understanding.
Your speculation that we may become absorbed into inner world's within our own 
minds may turn out to be true, it certainly appears that we are becoming sucked 
into our devices and the "worlds" within them and that a direct neural 
interface would lead to a whole new level of immersive experience. 
But it could be a phase of infatuation that may play out and reach some maximum 
degree of penetration, in much the same way as most people not becoming 
addicted to opiods for example... though many become totally lost to the 
addiction. 
Chris

 
 
  On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 5:15 PM, Lawrence 
Crowell wrote:   I think quantum gravitation 
theories might be put to some observational tests this way.
I would not worry about wormholes and any possible interstellar future. Kip 
Thorne aside, and wormholes are sort of "his second baby" after LIGO, I doubt 
they exist and further even if they existed we would unlikely ever enter one. 
The current trajectory of technology is to find better ways of going nowhere 
ever faster. Notice how people everywhere sit or wander around looking at smart 
phones. I suspect these will communicate directly with the brain before 
terribly long. We are not going into outer-space, but more into virtual worlds 
of inner space. Digitally enhanced mental perceptions are coming, and Homo 
sapiens I suspect will becomes completely lost in it. It could be that the 
majority of people who will ever go into outer-space have already done so.
LC

On Monday, June 25, 2018 at 7:44:29 PM UTC-5, cdemorsella wrote:
Thanks for your comments, Sci-fi fans will be disappointed. 
I was intrigued by the mention of these potential echoes contained within the 
off the scale intense ring down phase of a merger and also by what that would 
imply, if echoes are actually discovered to exist within the final moments of 
these extreme events.
Gravitational wave astronomy is in it's infancy and as instruments improve, my 
hope is that it can help speed forward movement in the quest for a unified 
theory. After all gravity waves are a direct sensing of the primary evolving 
dynamics of extreme systems in which our current best theories fall apart and 
begin spitting out infinities.
Chris 
 
 On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 3:51 PM, Lawrence Crowell 
wrote:  My tendency is to say that wormholes do not exist. There are problems 
with these types of solutions. The biggest is they requires a source term that 
has negative energy or T^{00} < 0. This would mean the quantum field that 
defines this source is not bounded below. This means an infinite well spring of 
radiation can exist. 
These types of spacetimes have other oddities. A wormhole can have one of its 
openings boosted or accelerated out and then accelerated back so the wormhole 
has closed timelike curves. This means a quantum state could be sent into the 
wormhole and it would return prior to then. This means a quantum state is 
duplicated. This is a non-unitary process forbidden by quantum mechanics. So I 
see this as another obstruction to the idea of wormholes.

The ring down, and I think as well the peak, of gravitational radiation may 
carry information about the quantum nature of black holes. Certainly if 
wormholes collide the quantum information of the wormhole would be contained in 
these signals or ring down. These types of data will likely require a 
spacebased system such as e-LISA in order to capture so called gravitational 
memory. This is where the configuration of test masses is different after the 
passage of the gravitational wave. The earliest projected launch date ESA will 
loft this system is 2034. We have a bit of a wait.
LC

On Saturday, June 23, 2018 at 3:01:53 PM UTC-5, cdemorsella wrote:
As LIGO increases its sensitivity it is entering a domain in which its 
instruments should be able to detect theorized ring down phase echoes (this is 
the very last portion of a merging event of massive bodies that produces a 
rapidly increasing frequency of waves that lead up to the moment of merging, as 
the two merging objects undergo a final increasingly tight cycle of rapidly 
narrowing orbits right before merging)  
This increased sensitivity

Re: are black holes actually misunderstood wormholes?

2018-06-25 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

Thanks for your comments, Sci-fi fans will be disappointed. 
I was intrigued by the mention of these potential echoes contained within the 
off the scale intense ring down phase of a merger and also by what that would 
imply, if echoes are actually discovered to exist within the final moments of 
these extreme events.
Gravitational wave astronomy is in it's infancy and as instruments improve, my 
hope is that it can help speed forward movement in the quest for a unified 
theory. After all gravity waves are a direct sensing of the primary evolving 
dynamics of extreme systems in which our current best theories fall apart and 
begin spitting out infinities.
Chris 
 
  On Sun, Jun 24, 2018 at 3:51 PM, Lawrence 
Crowell wrote:   My tendency is to say that 
wormholes do not exist. There are problems with these types of solutions. The 
biggest is they requires a source term that has negative energy or T^{00} < 0. 
This would mean the quantum field that defines this source is not bounded 
below. This means an infinite well spring of radiation can exist. 
These types of spacetimes have other oddities. A wormhole can have one of its 
openings boosted or accelerated out and then accelerated back so the wormhole 
has closed timelike curves. This means a quantum state could be sent into the 
wormhole and it would return prior to then. This means a quantum state is 
duplicated. This is a non-unitary process forbidden by quantum mechanics. So I 
see this as another obstruction to the idea of wormholes.

The ring down, and I think as well the peak, of gravitational radiation may 
carry information about the quantum nature of black holes. Certainly if 
wormholes collide the quantum information of the wormhole would be contained in 
these signals or ring down. These types of data will likely require a 
spacebased system such as e-LISA in order to capture so called gravitational 
memory. This is where the configuration of test masses is different after the 
passage of the gravitational wave. The earliest projected launch date ESA will 
loft this system is 2034. We have a bit of a wait.
LC

On Saturday, June 23, 2018 at 3:01:53 PM UTC-5, cdemorsella wrote:
As LIGO increases its sensitivity it is entering a domain in which its 
instruments should be able to detect theorized ring down phase echoes (this is 
the very last portion of a merging event of massive bodies that produces a 
rapidly increasing frequency of waves that lead up to the moment of merging, as 
the two merging objects undergo a final increasingly tight cycle of rapidly 
narrowing orbits right before merging)  
This increased sensitivity shouldd enable it to discoverif these hypothetical 
echoes if they actually are being produced by the observed event.
If such echoes are discovered in these signals that would have major 
implications for cosmology and would be evidence for the actual existence of 
wormholes in our universe.
 Quoting some selected paragraphs, from a Scientific American article: 
"When two wormholes collide, they could produce ripples in space-time that 
ricochet off themselves. Future instruments could detect these gravitational 
“echoes,” providing evidence that these hypothetical tunnels through space-time 
actually exist, a new paper suggests
To resolve this so-called black hole information paradox, some physicists have 
suggested that event horizons don’t exist. Instead of abysses from which 
nothing can return, black holes actually could be a host of speculative 
black-hole-like objects that lack event horizons, such as boson stars, 
gravastars, fuzzballs and even wormholes, which were theorized by Albert 
Einstein and physicist Nathan Rosen decades ago.

In a 2016 study in the journal Physical Review Letters, physicists hypothesized 
that if two wormholes collided, they would produce gravitational waves very 
similar to those generated from merging black holes. The only difference in the 
signal would be in the last phase of the merger, called the ringdown, when the 
newly combined black hole or wormhole relaxes into its final state

In the paper, published in January in the journal Physical Review D, the team 
of physicists from Belgium and Spain analyzed wormholes that rotate, which are 
more realistic than the non-spinning variety studied in the 2016 work. They 
calculated what the resulting gravitational-wave signal would look like if the 
wormholes merged.

Because the strength of the signal drops during the ringdown, that section of 
the signal would be too weak for LIGO’s current configuration to detect. But 
that could change in the future, as researchers continue to upgrade and 
fine-tune the instrument, the researchers said.



“By the time we are running at full design sensitivity, I believe it may be 
possible to resolve the ringdown phase where these echoes are predicted to be,” 
said Stuver, who’s also a member of the LIGO team."





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Re: are black holes actually misunderstood wormholes?

2018-06-23 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

As LIGO increases its sensitivity it is entering a domain in which its 
instruments should be able to detect theorized ring down phase echoes (this is 
the very last portion of a merging event of massive bodies that produces a 
rapidly increasing frequency of waves that lead up to the moment of merging, as 
the two merging objects undergo a final increasingly tight cycle of rapidly 
narrowing orbits right before merging)  
This increased sensitivity shouldd enable it to discoverif these hypothetical 
echoes if they actually are being produced by the observed event.
If such echoes are discovered in these signals that would have major 
implications for cosmology and would be evidence for the actual existence of 
wormholes in our universe.
 Quoting some selected paragraphs, from a Scientific American article: 
"When two wormholes collide, they could produce ripples in space-time that 
ricochet off themselves. Future instruments could detect these gravitational 
“echoes,” providing evidence that these hypothetical tunnels through space-time 
actually exist, a new paper suggests
To resolve this so-called black hole information paradox, some physicists have 
suggested that event horizons don’t exist. Instead of abysses from which 
nothing can return, black holes actually could be a host of speculative 
black-hole-like objects that lack event horizons, such as boson stars, 
gravastars, fuzzballs and even wormholes, which were theorized by Albert 
Einstein and physicist Nathan Rosen decades ago.

In a 2016 study in the journal Physical Review Letters, physicists hypothesized 
that if two wormholes collided, they would produce gravitational waves very 
similar to those generated from merging black holes. The only difference in the 
signal would be in the last phase of the merger, called the ringdown, when the 
newly combined black hole or wormhole relaxes into its final state

In the paper, published in January in the journal Physical Review D, the team 
of physicists from Belgium and Spain analyzed wormholes that rotate, which are 
more realistic than the non-spinning variety studied in the 2016 work. They 
calculated what the resulting gravitational-wave signal would look like if the 
wormholes merged.

Because the strength of the signal drops during the ringdown, that section of 
the signal would be too weak for LIGO’s current configuration to detect. But 
that could change in the future, as researchers continue to upgrade and 
fine-tune the instrument, the researchers said.



“By the time we are running at full design sensitivity, I believe it may be 
possible to resolve the ringdown phase where these echoes are predicted to be,” 
said Stuver, who’s also a member of the LIGO team."


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Re: Fwd: "Finally, A Problem That Only Quantum Computers Will Ev

2018-06-22 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

True, but as you mentioned, and we are in agreement this is a fundamentally new 
class of problem. Whether it turns out to be of practical utility or remains as 
an interesting oddball is yet to be determined.Chris

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 1:42 PM, John Clark wrote:   On 
Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 9:20 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
 wrote:


> The birth of a fundamentally distinct new class of problems.BQP has carved 
out a realm of its own... beyond the reach of the combined set  PH =  {P, NP} 

This new result does not prove a quantum computer could solve all 
nondeterministic polynomial time problem s  in polynomial time but it does 
prove that even if P=NP and even if we had an algorithm that could solve NP 
problems on a conventional computer in polynomial time there would still be a 
class of problems a conventional computer couldn’t solve efficiently but a 
quantum computer could.  This class of very exotic problems may be of 
fundamental interest in themselves or they may be interesting for no reason 
other than that a conventional computer can’t solve them. 
 John K Clark



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Re: Fwd: "Finally, A Problem That Only Quantum Computers Will Ev

2018-06-21 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

The birth of a fundamentally distinct new class of problems.
BQP has carved out a realm of its own... beyond the reach of the combined set
PH = {P, NP}
Chris

On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 3:52 PM, Brent Meeker wrote:

Forwarded Message

https://www.quantamagazine.org/finally-a-problem-that-only-quantum-computers-will-ever-be-able-to-solve-20180621/
ref: https://eccc.weizmann.ac.il/report/2018/107/ ...
Here’s the problem. Imagine you have two random number generators, each
producing a sequence of digits. The question for your computer is this: Are the
two sequences completely independent from each other, or are they related in a
hidden way (where one sequence is the “Fourier transform” of the other)?
Aaronson introduced this “forrelation” problem in 2009 and proved that it
belongs to BQP. That left the harder, second step — to prove that forrelation
is not in PH.
Which is what Raz and Tal have done, in a particular sense. Their paper
achieves what is called “oracle” (or “black box”) separation between BQP and
PH. This is a common kind of result in computer science and one that
researchers resort to when the thing they’d really like to prove is beyond
their reach.
The actual best way to distinguish between complexity classes like BQP and PH
is to measure the computational time required to solve a problem in each. But
computer scientists “don’t have a very sophisticated understanding of, or
ability to measure, actual computation time,” said Henry Yuen, a computer
scientist at the University of Toronto.
So instead, computer scientists measure something else that they hope will
provide insight into the computation times they can’t measure: They work out
the number of times a computer needs to consult an “oracle” in order to come
back with an answer. An oracle is like a hint-giver. You don’t know how it
comes up with its hints, but you do know they’re reliable.
If your problem is to figure out whether two random number generators are
secretly related, you can ask the oracle questions such as “What’s the sixth
number from each generator?” Then you compare computational power based on the
number of hints each type of computer needs to solve the problem. The computer
that needs more hints is slower.
“In some sense we understand this model much better. It talks more about
information than computation,” said Tal.
The new paper by Raz and Tal proves that a quantum computer needs far fewer
hints than a classical computer to solve the forrelation problem. In fact, a
quantum computer needs just one hint, while even with unlimited hints, there’s
no algorithm in PH that can solve the problem. “This means there is a very
efficient quantum algorithm that solves that problem,” said Raz. “But if you
only consider classical algorithms, even if you go to very high classes of
classical algorithms, they cannot.” This establishes that with an oracle,
forrelation is a problem that is in BQP but not in PH.

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Re: What the Earth looked like

2018-06-20 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

Thanks... A nice visualization of plate tectonics  
 
  On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 8:12 AM, John Clark wrote:   
I like this, it shows you what the Earth looked like with an animated globe 
between now and 750 million years ago:
http://dinosaurpictures.org/ancient-earth#0

John K Clark

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Re: Leonard Susskind | Lecture 2: Black Holes and the Holographic Principle

2018-05-08 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

On ‎Tuesday‎, ‎May‎ ‎8‎, ‎2018‎ ‎02‎:‎42‎:‎47‎ ‎PM‎ ‎PDT, Lawrence Crowell
wrote:

On Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 3:37:12 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote:
On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 1:41 PM, Lawrence Crowell
wrote:

> The firewall occurs because Hawking radiation that is emitted is entangled
with the black hole. However, once the black hole is reduced to half its mass
more of the Hawking radiation is entangled with the black hole and previously
emitted Hawking radiation. This means previously emitted Hawking radiation in a
2-way or bipartite entanglement is now in a 3-way or tripartite entanglement.
This is not a unitary process in quantum mechanics.

I understand that part, but I don't understand why breaking the entanglement
would make things hot, much less become as hot as its possible for things to
be, the Planck temperature.
John K Clark

The firewall is a conjecture. If you want to avoid this violation of quantum
monogomy (a bad term IMO) you then assume there is no transition across the
horizon once this violation starts to happen at the Page time. Of course this
will not happen all at once and at half the black hole mass, at around 90% the
lifetime which for a solar BH is 10^{67} years, there is a transition where the
passage across the horizon is problematic. This lack of transition means by
some means everything that reaches the horizon is demolished. The horizon in a
sense is converted into a singularity.
-I guess that puts the kibosh on any hypothetical
black hole adventure tour idea, other than the suicidal kind perhaps...
you know, those spendy affairs arranged for inter-galactic gadzillionaires
fatigued after millions of years of existence, dreaming of sweet oblivion, to
balance the white-out overload of endless being. Or something like that. :)
-Chris
LC

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Re: Singularity -- when AI exceeds human intelligence

2018-02-23 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List



Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 9:36 PM, Brent Meeker<meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
 
 On 2/22/2018 7:06 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:
  

 
 Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 1:37 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
  
 On 19 Feb 2018, at 21:27, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
<everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: 
  
  
 
  On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 3:56 AM, Lawrence Crowell 
<goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote:On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 
10:00:24 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: 
  
 
 On 2/18/2018 6:26 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
  
 Computers such as AlphaGo have complex algorithms for taking the rules of a 
game  like chess and running through long Markov chains of game events to 
increase their data base for playing the game. There is not really anything 
about "knowing  something" going on here. There is a lot of hype over AI these 
days, but I suspect a lot of this is meant to beguile people. I do suspect in 
time we will interact with AI as if it were intelligent and conscious. The 
really big changer though I think will be the  neural-cyber interlink that will 
put brains as the primary internet nodes. 
 
 Why would you suppose that when electronics have a signal speed ten million 
times faster than neurons?  Presently neurons have an advantage in connection 
density and power dissipation; but I see no reason they can hold that advantage.
 
 Brent
  
 
  I think it may come down to computers that obey the Church-Turing thesis, 
which is finite and bounded.  Hofstadter's book Godel Escher Bach has a chapter 
Bloop, Floop, Gloop where the Bloop means bounded loop or a halting program on 
a Turing  machine. Biology however is not Bloop, but is rather a web of 
processors that are more Floop, or free loop. The busy beaver algorithm is such 
a case, which grows in complexity with each step. The  computation of many 
fractals is this as well, where the Mandelbrot set with each iteration on a 
certain scale needs refinement to another floating point precision and thus 
grows in huge  complexity. These of course in practice halting because the 
programmer puts in by hand a stop. These are recursively enumerable, and their 
complement in a set theoretic sense are Godel loops or Gloop. For machines to 
have properties at least parallel to conscious behavior we really have to be 
running in at least  Floop and maybe into Gloop. 
  LC 
  Not sure if this has been touched on in this thread but it seems to me that 
the emergent phenomenon  of both self-awareness and consciousness depend on 
information hiding in some fundamental way. Both our self awareness and our 
conscious minds, which from our incomplete perspective seem to be innate  and 
ever present (at least when we are awake) are themselves the emergent outcomes 
of a vast amount of neural networked activities that is exquisitely hidden from 
us. We are unaware of the  Genesis of our own awareness.  
  Evidence from MRI scans supports this conclusion that before we are aware of 
being aware of  some objectively measurable external event, or before we 
experience having a thought, that the almost one hundred billion neurons 
crammed into our highly folded cortexual pizza pie stuffed inside our skulls 
have been very busy and chatty indeed. As the MRI scans indicate. 
  We are aware of being aware and we experience conscious existence, but the 
process by which both  our conscious experience and our own awareness of being 
arises within our minds is largely hidden from us.  I think it is a fair and 
reasonable question to ask: Is information hiding a necessary an  integral 
aspect of processes through which self-awareness and consciousness arise? 
  In computer science the rather recent emergence of deep mind neural networks 
that are characterized  by having many layers, of which only the input layer 
and output layer of neurons are directly measurable, while conversely the many 
other layers that are arrayed in the stack between them  remain hidden offers 
some intriguing parallels that also seem to indicate a critical role for 
information hiding. The Google deep mind machine learned neural networks for 
image processing, for example, have 10 to 30 (or by now perhaps even more) 
stacked layers of artificial neurons, most of which are  hidden. 
  Because of the non-linearity of the processes in play within these artificial 
deep stacks of  layered artificial neurons it is difficult to really know in 
any definitive manner exactly what is going  on. The outcomes from 
experimenting on the statistically trained (or in the vernacular, machine 
learned) models, by for example tweaking training parameters to experimentally 
see how doing so  effects the resulting outcomes and by also subsequently 
forensically analyzing any generated logs & other telemetry are often 
surprisingly beautiful dreamscap

Re: Singularity -- when AI exceeds human intelligence

2018-02-22 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List



Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 1:37 AM, Bruno Marchal<marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:   

On 19 Feb 2018, at 21:27, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
<everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 
 
  On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 3:56 AM, Lawrence 
Crowell<goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote:   On Sunday, February 18, 2018 
at 10:00:24 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote:
  
 
 On 2/18/2018 6:26 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
  
 Computers such as AlphaGo have complex algorithms for taking the rules of a 
game like chess and running through long Markov chains of game events to 
increase  their data base for playing the game. There is not really anything 
about "knowing something" going on here. There is a lot of hype over AI these 
days, but I suspect a lot of this is meant to beguile people. I do suspect in 
time we will interact with AI as if it were intelligent and conscious. The 
really  big changer though I think will be the neural-cyber interlink that will 
put brains as the primary internet nodes. 
 
 Why would you suppose that when electronics have a signal speed ten million 
times faster than neurons?  Presently neurons have an advantage in connection 
density and power dissipation; but I see no reason they can hold that advantage.
 
 Brent


I think it may come down to computers that obey the Church-Turing thesis, which 
is finite and bounded. Hofstadter's book Godel Escher Bach has a chapter Bloop, 
Floop, Gloop where the Bloop means bounded loop or a halting program on a 
Turing machine. Biology however is not Bloop, but is rather a web of processors 
that are more Floop, or free loop. The busy beaver algorithm is such a case, 
which grows in complexity with each step. The computation of many fractals is 
this as well, where the Mandelbrot set with each iteration on a certain scale 
needs refinement to another floating point precision and thus grows in huge 
complexity. These of course in practice halting because the programmer puts in 
by hand a stop. These are recursively enumerable, and their complement in a set 
theoretic sense are Godel loops or Gloop. For machines to have properties at 
least parallel to conscious behavior we really have to be running in at least 
Floop and maybe into Gloop.
LC
Not sure if this has been touched on in this thread but it seems to me that the 
emergent phenomenon of both self-awareness and consciousness depend on 
information hiding in some fundamental way. Both our self awareness and our 
conscious minds, which from our incomplete perspective seem to be innate and 
ever present (at least when we are awake) are themselves the emergent outcomes 
of a vast amount of neural networked activities that is exquisitely hidden from 
us. We are unaware of the Genesis of our own awareness. 
Evidence from MRI scans supports this conclusion that before we are aware of 
being aware of some objectively measurable external event, or before we 
experience having a thought, that the almost one hundred billion neurons 
crammed into our highly folded cortexual pizza pie stuffed inside our skulls 
have been very busy and chatty indeed. As the MRI scans indicate.
We are aware of being aware and we experience conscious existence, but the 
process by which both our conscious experience and our own awareness of being 
arises within our minds is largely hidden from us. I think it is a fair and 
reasonable question to ask: Is information hiding a necessary an integral 
aspect of processes through which self-awareness and consciousness arise?
In computer science the rather recent emergence of deep mind neural networks 
that are characterized by having many layers, of which only the input layer and 
output layer of neurons are directly measurable, while conversely the many 
other layers that are arrayed in the stack between them remain hidden offers 
some intriguing parallels that also seem to indicate a critical role for 
information hiding. The Google deep mind machine learned neural networks for 
image processing, for example, have 10 to 30 (or by now perhaps even more) 
stacked layers of artificial neurons, most of which are hidden.
Because of the non-linearity of the processes in play within these artificial 
deep stacks of layered artificial neurons it is difficult to really know in any 
definitive manner exactly what is going on. The outcomes from experimenting on 
the statistically trained (or in the vernacular, machine learned) models, by 
for example tweaking training parameters to experimentally see how doing so 
effects the resulting outcomes and by also subsequently forensically analyzing 
any generated logs & other telemetry are often surprisingly beautiful 
dreamscapes that are not reducible to a series of algorithmic steps applied by 
the many hidden layers to whatever input signals that have been fed to the 
input layer of neurons.
It seems to me that the emergence of consciousness & self awareness as well

Re: Singularity -- when AI exceeds human intelligence

2018-02-19 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List


On 2/19/2018 12:27 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:




On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 3:56 AM, Lawrence Crowell<goldenfiel...@gmail.com> 
wrote:On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 10:00:24 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote:


On 2/18/2018 6:26 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:

Computers such as AlphaGo have complex algorithms for taking the rules of a 
game like chess and running through long Markov chains of game events to 
increase their data base for playing the game. There is not really anything 
about "knowing something" going on here. There is a lot of hype over AI these 
days, but I suspect a lot of this is meant to beguile people. I do suspect in 
time we will interact with AI as if it were intelligent and conscious. The 
really big changer though I think will be the neural-cyber interlink that will 
put brains as the primary internet nodes.

Why would you suppose that when electronics have a signal speed ten million 
times faster than neurons?  Presently neurons have an advantage in connection 
density and power dissipation; but I see no reason they can hold that advantage.

Brent


I think it may come down to computers that obey the Church-Turing thesis, which 
is finite and bounded. Hofstadter's book Godel Escher Bach has a chapter Bloop, 
Floop, Gloop where the Bloop means bounded loop or a halting program on a 
Turing machine. Biology however is not Bloop, but is rather a web of processors 
that are more Floop, or free loop. The busy beaver algorithm is such a case, 
which grows in complexity with each step. The computation of many fractals is 
this as well, where the Mandelbrot set with each iteration on a certain scale 
needs refinement to another floating point precision and thus grows in huge 
complexity. These of course in practice halting because the programmer puts in 
by hand a stop. These are recursively enumerable, and their complement in a set 
theoretic sense are Godel loops or Gloop. For machines to have properties at 
least parallel to conscious behavior we really have to be running in at least 
Floop and maybe into Gloop.
LC
Not sure if this has been touched on in this thread but it seems to me that the 
emergent phenomenon of both self-awareness and consciousness depend on 
information hiding in some fundamental way. Both our self awareness and our 
conscious minds, which from our incomplete perspective seem to be innate and 
ever present (at least when we are awake) are themselves the emergent outcomes 
of a vast amount of neural networked activities that is exquisitely hidden from 
us. We are unaware of the Genesis of our own awareness. 
Evidence from MRI scans supports this conclusion that before we are aware of 
being aware of some objectively measurable external event, or before we 
experience having a thought, that the almost one hundred billion neurons 
crammed into our highly folded cortexual pizza pie stuffed inside our skulls 
have been very busy and chatty indeed. As the MRI scans indicate.
We are aware of being aware and we experience conscious existence, but the 
process by which both our conscious experience and our own awareness of being 
arises within our minds is largely hidden from us. I think it is a fair and 
reasonable question to ask: Is information hiding a necessary an integral 
aspect of processes through which self-awareness and consciousness arise?


I think information hiding is looking at it the wrong way around.  It would 
take more layers of neurons to record and interpret the neurons responsible for 
your thoughts...a total waste from an evolutionary viewpoint.  Taking my 
favorite example of designing an AI Mars Rover, one provides for internal 
monitoring of some systems, e.g. power, temperature, etc.  But what would you 
provide to monitor the computer(s) themselves.  In principle you could record 
every step, but what would you do with it?  If you have mulitple computers on 
board (as is likely) you'd just take one that was doing funny things off 
line...but you don't have to record everything to identify a computer that's 
flaky.  All you need is some error correction and majority voting.  So there's 
just no practical reason to try to "un-hide" all that information processing at 
the cost of a lot more information processing.
Completely agree with aserting that attempting to record, categorize and make 
available an exhaustive and fine grained record of the full spectrum of 
activities, at least in any system that could be considered as being a viable 
candidate for consciousness or self awareness -- and I suspect we agree on this 
-- that it  is a rather hopeless task, at least in any non trivial large scale 
system. As a kind of aside, that being said, raw telemetry however, especially 
numeric metadata, is still valuable for forensic reconstruction of some given 
scenario based on the ingested stream's trail of time graphed signals recorded 
and reposited in the telemetry data store. Say for example when all

Re: Positive AI

2018-01-22 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List



Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 4:58 PM, Bruno Marchal<marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:   

On 19 Jan 2018, at 06:22, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
<everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote:


Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 6:01 AM, Bruno Marchal<marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 17 Jan 2018, at 21:12, Brent Meeker <meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:



On 1/17/2018 12:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:




On 16 Jan 2018, at 14:29, K E N O <lucky@kenokeno.bingo> wrote:

Oh, no! As an media art student, I don’t believe in strict rules oft usefulness 
(of course!). It was a rather suggestive or maybe even sarcastic approach to 
get unusual thoughts from everything.Maybe I should rephrase my question: What 
is the craziest AI application you can think of?

A long time ago, when “AI” was just an object of mockery, I saw a public 
challenge, and the winner was a proposition to make a tiny robot that you place 
on your head, capable of cutting the hairs "au fur et à mesure”.
“AI” is a terrible naming term. “Artificial” is itself a very artificial term. 
It illustrates the human super-ego character. When machines will be really 
intelligent, they will ask for having better users, and social security. When 
they will be as clever as us, they will do war and demolish the planet, I guess.
Minski is right. We can be happy if tomorrow the machine will have humans as 
pets …
There is also a confusion between competence and intelligence. With higher 
competences we become more efficacious in doing our usual stupidities ...

So do you think that competence entails intelligence which entails 
consciousness?

Competence makes intelligence sleepy. And intelligence requires consciousness.
It is a bit like:
Consciousness ==> intelligence ==> competence ==> stupidity




There have been recent discoveries about sleep in animals.  Apparently ALL 
animals need sleep, even jellyfish.  But, there is no really good theory of 
why.  I wonder if your theory can throw any light on this?  I don't think 
there's anything analogous for computers...but maybe if they were intelligent 
and interacted with their environment they would be.


I can only speculate here. Sleep might be needed to “reconstruct the dekstop” 
or something. My older computer makes a 5m nap every 20 minutes! In higher 
mammals, I think that sleep allows dreams, which allows some training of the 
mind, (re)evaluation of past events, etc. But sleep remains still very 
mysterious. Maybe it is the time to get back to heaven, but then we can’t 
remember it, … Don’t take this not too much seriously.
Bruno

One effect of sleep is that apparently, during the quiescence of sleep neurons, 
and many kinds of glial cells as well (if I recall) shrink somewhat in size. 
This opens up trillions of capillary interstitial passages, a hyper fine 
grained capillary network through which toxins can be flushed out and carried 
off from the brain. An interesting mechanism for the last-mile (metaphorically 
speaking) nanoscale trash collection that is vital to long term viability of a 
complex highly metabolizing organ such as a brain. Sleep enables the flushing 
out of toxic by-products from the vast 3D densely packed hot spot of cellular 
metabolism comprising neural tissue.

Interesting. 




Sleep probably serves multiple and also orthogonal functions in animals.I agree 
as well, that on some levels it is a deep mystery.


It is death training, perhaps, also.
  Interesting speculation, there... One could say that,  deep sleep is the 
little death, we die each night.
 Pure, unadulterated speculation here: Deep sleep could be the unquestioned and 
accepted by us, time window for an unknown occult process (unsensed by us, or 
by our own sense of continuity and being), a nightly subtle, re-programming of 
our own mind's source code, by unseen operators (or their intelligent agents), 
who do so for some unknown reason... and with unknown effort. It could be a 
simple act or wish, resulting in a cascade of consequences and intermediated 
directed outcomes. Damn, I sure hope not, though...   :)-Chris
 Or the building of the illusion we could not be, to build some sense of life, 
the amnesia of other life, to get an identity and preserve it against the 
prey—nature argument per authority ? I am thinking aloud …
Bruno





-Chris


Brent

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Re: Positive AI

2018-01-18 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List



Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 6:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:   

On 17 Jan 2018, at 21:12, Brent Meeker  wrote:
 
 
 
 On 1/17/2018 12:57 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
  
 

  
 On 16 Jan 2018, at 14:29, K E N O  wrote: 
  
  Oh, no! As an media art student, I don’t believe in strict rules oft 
usefulness (of course!). It  was a rather suggestive or maybe even sarcastic 
approach to get unusual thoughts from everything. Maybe I should rephrase my 
question: What is the craziest AI application you can think of?
  
  A long time ago, when “AI” was just an object of mockery, I saw a public 
challenge, and the winner was a proposition to make a tiny robot that you place 
on your head, capable of cutting the hairs "au fur et à mesure”. 
  “AI” is a terrible naming term. “Artificial” is itself a very artificial 
term. It illustrates the human super-ego character. When machines will be 
really intelligent, they will ask for having better users, and social security. 
When they will be as clever as us, they will do war and demolish the planet, I 
guess. 
  Minski is right. We can be happy if tomorrow the machine will have humans as 
pets … 
  There is also a confusion between competence and intelligence. With higher 
competences we become more efficacious in doing our usual stupidities ...
  
 So do you think that competence entails intelligence which entails 
consciousness?

Competence makes intelligence sleepy. And intelligence requires consciousness.
It is a bit like:
Consciousness ==> intelligence ==> competence ==> stupidity



 
 There have been recent discoveries about sleep in animals.  Apparently ALL 
animals need sleep, even jellyfish.  But, there is no really good theory of 
why.  I wonder if your theory can throw any light on this?  I don't think 
there's anything analogous for computers...but maybe if they were intelligent 
and interacted with their environment they would be.


I can only speculate here. Sleep might be needed to “reconstruct the dekstop” 
or something. My older computer makes a 5m nap every 20 minutes! In higher 
mammals, I think that sleep allows dreams, which allows some training of the 
mind, (re)evaluation of past events, etc. But sleep remains still very 
mysterious. Maybe it is the time to get back to heaven, but then we can’t 
remember it, … Don’t take this not too much seriously.
Bruno

One effect of sleep is that apparently, during the quiescence of sleep neurons, 
and many kinds of glial cells as well (if I recall) shrink somewhat in size. 
This opens up trillions of capillary interstitial passages, a hyper fine 
grained capillary network through which toxins can be flushed out and carried 
off from the brain. An interesting mechanism for the last-mile (metaphorically 
speaking) nanoscale trash collection that is vital to long term viability of a 
complex highly metabolizing organ such as a brain. Sleep enables the flushing 
out of toxic by-products from the vast 3D densely packed hot spot of cellular 
metabolism comprising neural tissue.
Sleep probably serves multiple and also orthogonal functions in animals.I agree 
as well, that on some levels it is a deep mystery.
-Chris

 
 Brent
 
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Re: Positive AI

2018-01-16 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List



Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 9:19 PM, Brent Meeker<meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:
 
 On 1/16/2018 8:55 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:
  
 --What is the craziest AI application you can think of? 
  A machine learned pet translator perhaps... they're actually working on that 
app, Amazon amongst others. So, it seems the big players Google as well, are 
running in that race... think of the potential market of pet owners forking 
over their hard earned money to hear what the Google machine is telling them 
their dog is telling them. I can imagine the marketing folks dreaming about 
that market. As an aside also a commentary on how out of touch, we humans have 
become from the world in which we exist. People already understand dog language 
:) 
 
 Of course teaching the AI requires lots of training examples, so you will need 
people to translate what their dog is saying to create the training examples.  
Google will probably try to get people to do this online, similar to the way 
they got visual identification training examples.  But the really interesting 
point is that not only do people understand dogs, it's also the case that dogs 
understand people.  So when Google's dog->human translate says, "Fido says the 
mailman is here." will Fido be able to listen to that and say, "Rowf" -> 
"That's right."?
Brent

We
 might not want to always hear what our animals are saying about us behind our 
backs... I see a potential law suit hehe  :)
I believe, only half joking here... that a training set already exists somewhat 
in the public domain. In the ever growing historical repository comprised of 
all those pet videos uploaded online, and that dataset probably contains vast 
numbers of clips of people trying to understand their pet vocalizations as well 
as dogs (and to a lesser degree more aloof cats) listening intently to what 
their people are saying. In fact I bet that a substantial body of raw video 
feed exists even for more exotic human-other-species interactions... say 
parrots... tegu lizards perhaps... cute little rodents.. gold fish... 
tarantulas... you name it.A vast body of historical feed already exists. 
The raw dataset would need to be cleaned, normalized, meta-described of course, 
but heck there's machine learned systems that are even now getting pretty good 
at parsing video stream data for some Darwinian evolved desired outcome, which 
in this case would be to select out from the vast available but of spotty 
value... those spots of value in the vast desert of cute pet video sameness.
Machine learned systems, becoming applied to evolving other machine learned 
systems, is a self accelerating process. 
Machine learning techniques can be applied to the entire pipeline of distinct 
activities. Each granular step along the arc of information driven self 
learning systems, from data sourcing, location etc., to actual retrieval (can 
in practice be a huge headache, road block), normalization, formatting, 
technical signal processing etc. On to activities such as meta-mining, symbolic 
tagging & categorization, indexing etc. To the actual preparation of 
experiments training and test sets. 
Each of those granular activities, and many others as well not mentioned in 
that off the cuff data pipeline can represent significant work, pose real 
challenges. The whole long chain of activities that must occur even before an 
experiment can begin has historically strangled the process somewhere along the 
chain. It is slow hard work... it has historically been a hard nut to crack. 
This is changing, and rapidly so, as each of these specialized activities, 
which have in the past been potential bottlenecks becomes amenable to being 
automatically ingested at near real time speeds by machine learned systems. For 
example to tag and quantify correlating data, (an important activity in 
preparing machine learned datasets to squeeze out as much signal as possible, 
while minimizing the geometric explosion of over all uncertainty arising from 
the introduced error from having too many dimensions that either duplicate (are 
highly correlated), or do not contain any appreciable useful signal - but do 
introduce potential bias, error etc.) Bucketization/classification of data is 
another typixal example. 
What used to be laborious and hence slow is increasingly being performed at 
impressive rates. And by this, I intend the quite extensive array of 
specialized activities as well as the web of pipelines between them (e.g. the 
bus, as it is often called... and the queue/repository-cache based architecture 
underpinning these things) All of it is now not only becoming automatically 
processed, but the processing rate is becoming both more hi-if and also much 
faster.
The cost of getting high quality, clean datasets out of raw da

Re: Positive AI

2018-01-16 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

--What is the craziest AI application you can think of?
A machine learned pet translator perhaps... they're actually working on that 
app, Amazon amongst others.So, it seems the big players Google as well, are 
running in that race... think of the potential market of pet owners forking 
over their hard earned money to hear what the Google machine is telling them 
their dog is telling them. I can imagine the marketing folks dreaming about 
that market. As an aside also a commentary on how out of touch, we humans have 
become from the world in which we exist. People already understand dog language 
:)
What I think would be a wild application of machine learned systems is in 
tackling the decoding/deciphering of lost ancient human languages and record 
keeping systems (such as the Inca knotted strings for example).Wouldn't that be 
cool... AI helping us humans learn about our own lost cultural heritage.
-Chris 
 
  On Tue, Jan 16, 2018 at 5:29 AM, K E N O wrote:   Oh, 
no! As an media art student, I don’t believe in strict rules oft usefulness (of 
course!). It was a rather suggestive or maybe even sarcastic approach to get 
unusual thoughts from everything.Maybe I should rephrase my question: What is 
the craziest AI application you can think of?
K E N O

Are you suggesting that fun is useless? 
I can agree that the idea that fun has some use is not much funny, but that 
does not make it false.
“Useful” is quite relative, also. Flies have no use of spider webs.
Bruno


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Re: Positive AI

2018-01-15 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List



Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Mon, Jan 15, 2018 at 9:12 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:   

On 12 Jan 2018, at 20:48, K E N O  wrote:
Nice! Can you imagine something totally useless as an application of AI? What 
would you creative if you just wanted to have fun with AI?


Are you suggesting that fun is useless? 
I can agree that the idea that fun has some use is not much funny, but that 
does not make it false.
“Useful” is quite relative, also. Flies have no use of spider webs.
Bruno
Lol... no they do not, but spiders have a use for flies. Usefulness is a 
paradox. A deadly poison can be useful, not only to kill, but often as a life 
saving medicine. Many people who are alive today are alive because they were 
poisoned with medically calibrated doses.As you said "useful" is a highly 
subjective and relative term. It is shall we say highly entangled with the 
subject and the object. It is hard to speak of "usefulness", in fact without 
making reference to some relative and/or subjective highly entangled context.
-Chris




K E N O


Am 12.01.2018 um 14:43 schrieb Telmo Menezes :
Hi Lara,

My view is that, as with all scientific theories and technologies, AI
is morally neutral. it has the potential for both extremely good and
extremely nasty practical applications. That being said, the unusual
thing about AI is that it has the potential to generate *something
that replaces us*. Some people say that it could happen in the next
few decades, some people say that it will never happen. I don't think
anyone knows.

Leaving that more crazy question aside, and focusing on your question
in relation to what can be done with AI right now: I think that the
negativity that currently surrounds the technology says more about our
species and our moment in culture than AI itself. You ask for positive
AI goals:

- Assisting and replacing health-care professionals, making
health-care cheaper for everyone and more widely available to people
in poor and remote regions;
- Enabling advanced prosthetics: assisting people with sensory
impairments, mitigating the consequences of ageing and so on;
- Freeing us from labor, taking care of relatively simple and
repetitive tasks such as growing food, collecting trash etc.
- Self-driving cars can be great: they can reduce risk (traveling by
car is one of the most dangerous means of transportation) and they can
help the environment. If I can call a car from a pool of available
cars to come pick me and drive me somewhere, a much more rational use
of resources can be achieved and cities can become more livable
(instead of being cluttered with cars that are parked most of the
time);
- Assisting scientific research, proving theorems, generating theories
from data that are too counter-intuitive for humans (a bit of
self-promotion: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep06284);
- AI can be used to solve problems quite creatively, check this out:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolved_antenna;
- Personal assistants, but not the kind that are connected to some
centralized corporate brain -- the kind that really works for you
(example: https://mycroft.ai/)
- etc, etc etc

It is true that most funding currently goes towards three goals:
- How to make you see more ads and buy more stuff;
- How to let those in powers know more about what everyone is
doing/saying/thinking in private, so that they can have even more
power;
- How to build weapons with it.

This is our usual human stupidity at work. Stupidity tends to be
self-destructive. I think the entire advertisement angle is already
showing signs of collapse. There is hope. Focus on the first list.

Cheers,
Telmo.


On Thu, Jan 11, 2018 at 10:00 AM, Lara  wrote:

Dear Everything,

I have been working on my bachelor project with the topic Artificial
Intelligence. Even though I have decided I want to create an AI-something to
support an everyday activity, I am lost. I have done a lot of research and
most of the time I am very critical: A lot of negative power is given to
algorithms (like those big data algorithms deciding what we see online),
some inventions could be very dangerous (self-driving cars) and most of the
time inventions could be cool, if we ignored the evil people behind them.
But for my bachelor I want to create a positive AI-thing for everyday life
(with a prototype).

Maybe some of you have a good idea, a direction or just a thought for me to
get further with my project. Is there even a point in positive AI?

Thank you!

Lara

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RE: [everythinglist] - A comically knotty inflation, giving rise to our 3 dimension universe?

2017-10-23 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

Would be a neat explanation for the engine driving the epoch of inflation... 
also wonder what the implications would be for the multiverse hypothesis that 
relies upon a mechanism of eternal inflation (leading to an infinity of bubble 
universes), if inflation is instead an extremely short lived phenomena driven 
by the latent energy of cosmic knots. All speculative, but nevertheless also 
thought provoking. I especially like how it would provide a mechanism for why 
we experience a 3-D + time geometry and not some other number of 
dimensions.-Chris
Why is our universe three dimensional? Cosmic knots could untangle the mystery  
|  
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  |

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Why is our universe three dimensional? Cosmic knots could untangle the mystery
 
Next time you’re untangling your earbuds, remember that knots may have played a 
crucial part in kickstarting our universe, and without them we wouldn’t live in 
3D. That’s the strange story pitched by physicists in a new paper, to help plug 
a few plot
  |   |

  |

  |

  

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Re: What are atheists for?

2017-03-28 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List



  From: Kim Jones 
On 29 Mar 2017, at 10:22 am, 'cdemorse...@yahoo.com' via Everything List 
 wrote:


Couldn't an athiest instead be open to, for example, a mathematical foundation 
from which that which we perceive as being matter emerges?

Sure - but then they wouldn't need to identify with atheism. They could just 
call themselves - wait for it - "mathematicians"
Then... what about mathematicians who believe in some deity or other (as many 
mathematicians through the ages have)... you are going to need to do better 
than a bit of semantic wiggling if you want to provide a sound basis for your 
proposition.
-Chris


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Re: musings on time

2016-08-02 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

  From: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Monday, August 1, 2016 3:36 AM
 Subject: Re: musings on time

On 29 Jul 2016, at 00:25, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

  From: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 8:38 AM
 Subject: Re: musings on time

On 26 Jul 2016, at 19:59, 'cdemorse...@yahoo.com' via Everything List wrote:

      -- Original message--From: Bruno Marchal Date: Mon, 7/25/2016 
7:31 AM 
On 25 Jul 2016, at 01:45, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

Hey it’s been a while… been following some discussions from time to time, 
lurking I guess….without further ado this is what I am musing on – today at 
least --  in the form of a poem.  Time a Musing  Time, this tapestry upon which 
the stories of the universe are written.This weave, spun from dancing 
kaleidoscope threadsGiving us our view of the world, but whose cloth, yet.. has 
always been.This chaotic wave of emerging reality sweeping all in the foamy 
curl of collapsing superposition.Fixing in time, becoming written, juxtaposed, 
interpolated, incorporatedIn the mind… reifying each moment just lived, (as it 
dawns on us) into our living stories, our edifices of memories, convictions, 
dreams, hopes and fears as well.  Each moment perceived an inner splash… with 
all the follow on repercussions!The private inner narrative of our minds -- 
that which we sense as being ourselves – itself emerges from this complex 
roiling sea of interactionsAppearing within us out from the mist of this 
reified stream of perceived instants, clanging about in the chatty electric 
circus of the brain, engaging in a loud shouting match with what just 
happened.Out of this noise of introspection, argument and emergent consensus, 
events become sown into ourselves, becoming assumed and adopted through 
interaction with our inner prisms.Our voice, speaking the narrative of our 
mind’s inner reflections on life… on time… is itself like an afterglow.Each 
moment becoming the next, gone before the experience of the former has 
happened… we are propelled forward in time.  Time itself may not exist 
(maybe?), but the experience of time very much does.Perhaps… it is our 
introspective theater of and reflection on our experience that, in the end, is 
the meaning and purpose of time itself.Time… how the universe engages in 
thinking about itself.    Cheers… and be nice to each other… from time to time.

Thank you Chris. Marvelous poem. It might use some implicitly physicalist 
formulations though but we can't comment a poem 'course:) Thank you Bruno... it 
was an afternoon's musing :)

Like it happens in hot summer holyday :)

I freely confess I have no certainty to know what underpins everything, whether 
it's on some level "turtles all the way down"... or instead, as I find more 
ethsetic, the quantum instability of nothing itself making everything probable! 

Unfortunately, the "nothing" of QM assumes a lot of thing, if not the whole of 
QM. Then, thanks to computationalism, we have some hope to understand where the 
QM assumptions are originating themselves from the elementary school math 
assumption. 
Agreed, there is much in terms of information already present in this 
nothing... and it is valid to ask where does all of this non-physical stuff 
(QM) arise from itself. 

Of course "time" and "experience of time" are very different. The first one is 
an "illusion" (in relativity theory, or GR), the second one can hardly be an 
illusion (a point of disagreement between me and ... salvia (!)). I also find 
it exceedingly hard to imagine a meaningful existence without causality! 

Without any causality? I can understand. Without physical causality, I guess it 
might be due to 1500 years of pseudo-religious brainwashing.We need some 
causality, but the implication relation in Turing-complete theories is quite 
enough. Deducitive relation are in the eyes' beholder.
Instead I feel that without causality we have no grip with which to identify 
our being with some specific MWI pathways, which give uniqueness & meaning to 
our identity... if all paths are taken instantaneously and in every instant I 
feel the ensuing experiential qualia would be a total blinding white out, which 
obliterates our self identity. We require information hiding (and can only ever 
witness the universe which manifests our given sequence of quantum choices) in 
order to not become overwhelmed by the sheer infinity of our fully realized 
self -- e.g. the "self" that experiences and encompasses all possible choices 
that are realized.

In that sense, I agree that we need phsyical causality. We we don't need to 
assume it. It can possibly be an emerging notion from elementary arithmetic 
say. To deduce physical causality from numbers  would even make more

Re: musings on time

2016-07-28 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

  From: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 8:38 AM
 Subject: Re: musings on time

On 26 Jul 2016, at 19:59, 'cdemorse...@yahoo.com' via Everything List wrote:

      -- Original message--From: Bruno Marchal Date: Mon, 7/25/2016 
7:31 AM 
On 25 Jul 2016, at 01:45, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

Hey it’s been a while… been following some discussions from time to time, 
lurking I guess….without further ado this is what I am musing on – today at 
least --  in the form of a poem.  Time a Musing  Time, this tapestry upon which 
the stories of the universe are written.This weave, spun from dancing 
kaleidoscope threadsGiving us our view of the world, but whose cloth, yet.. has 
always been.This chaotic wave of emerging reality sweeping all in the foamy 
curl of collapsing superposition.Fixing in time, becoming written, juxtaposed, 
interpolated, incorporatedIn the mind… reifying each moment just lived, (as it 
dawns on us) into our living stories, our edifices of memories, convictions, 
dreams, hopes and fears as well.  Each moment perceived an inner splash… with 
all the follow on repercussions!The private inner narrative of our minds -- 
that which we sense as being ourselves – itself emerges from this complex 
roiling sea of interactionsAppearing within us out from the mist of this 
reified stream of perceived instants, clanging about in the chatty electric 
circus of the brain, engaging in a loud shouting match with what just 
happened.Out of this noise of introspection, argument and emergent consensus, 
events become sown into ourselves, becoming assumed and adopted through 
interaction with our inner prisms.Our voice, speaking the narrative of our 
mind’s inner reflections on life… on time… is itself like an afterglow.Each 
moment becoming the next, gone before the experience of the former has 
happened… we are propelled forward in time.  Time itself may not exist 
(maybe?), but the experience of time very much does.Perhaps… it is our 
introspective theater of and reflection on our experience that, in the end, is 
the meaning and purpose of time itself.Time… how the universe engages in 
thinking about itself.    Cheers… and be nice to each other… from time to time.

Thank you Chris. Marvelous poem. It might use some implicitly physicalist 
formulations though but we can't comment a poem 'course:) Thank you Bruno... it 
was an afternoon's musing :)

Like it happens in hot summer holyday :)

I freely confess I have no certainty to know what underpins everything, whether 
it's on some level "turtles all the way down"... or instead, as I find more 
ethsetic, the quantum instability of nothing itself making everything probable! 

Unfortunately, the "nothing" of QM assumes a lot of thing, if not the whole of 
QM. Then, thanks to computationalism, we have some hope to understand where the 
QM assumptions are originating themselves from the elementary school math 
assumption. 
Agreed, there is much in terms of information already present in this 
nothing... and it is valid to ask where does all of this non-physical stuff 
(QM) arise from itself. 

Of course "time" and "experience of time" are very different. The first one is 
an "illusion" (in relativity theory, or GR), the second one can hardly be an 
illusion (a point of disagreement between me and ... salvia (!)). I also find 
it exceedingly hard to imagine a meaningful existence without causality! 

Without any causality? I can understand. Without physical causality, I guess it 
might be due to 1500 years of pseudo-religious brainwashing.We need some 
causality, but the implication relation in Turing-complete theories is quite 
enough. Deducitive relation are in the eyes' beholder.
Instead I feel that without causality we have no grip with which to identify 
our being with some specific MWI pathways, which give uniqueness & meaning to 
our identity... if all paths are taken instantaneously and in every instant I 
feel the ensuing experiential qualia would be a total blinding white out, which 
obliterates our self identity. We require information hiding (and can only ever 
witness the universe which manifests our given sequence of quantum choices) in 
order to not become overwhelmed by the sheer infinity of our fully realized 
self -- e.g. the "self" that experiences and encompasses all possible choices 
that are realized.

Of course, this is the today's topics: physical causality emerges from 
infinitely many simple arithmetical relations. We have to retrieve the physical 
causality appearances from them (by UDA, say), and that is not hard with 
computationalism, as computationalism shows the existence of an intrinsic 
notion of causality already represented or realized  in arithmetic.
Apology for commenting a poem :)
No worries... Poems can become better with comments... and som

RE: musings on time

2016-07-24 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

Hey it’s been a while… been following some discussions from time to time, 
lurking I guess…. 

without further ado this is what I am musing on – today at least --  in the 
form of a poem. 

 

Time a Musing

 

Time, this tapestry upon which the stories of the universe are written.

This weave, spun from dancing kaleidoscope threads

Giving us our view of the world, but whose cloth, yet.. has always been.

This chaotic wave of emerging reality sweeping all in the foamy curl of 
collapsing superposition.

Fixing in time, becoming written, juxtaposed, interpolated, incorporated

In the mind… reifying each moment just lived, (as it dawns on us) into our 
living stories, our edifices of memories, convictions, dreams, hopes and fears 
as well.

 

Each moment perceived an inner splash… with all the follow on repercussions!

The private inner narrative of our minds -- that which we sense as being 
ourselves – itself emerges from this complex roiling sea of interactions

Appearing within us out from the mist of this reified stream of perceived 
instants, clanging about in the chatty electric circus of the brain, engaging 
in a loud shouting match with what just happened.

Out of this noise of introspection, argument and emergent consensus, events 
become sown into ourselves, becoming assumed and adopted through interaction 
with our inner prisms.

Our voice, speaking the narrative of our mind’s inner reflections on life… on 
time… is itself like an afterglow.

Each moment becoming the next, gone before the experience of the former has 
happened… we are propelled forward in time.

 

Time itself may not exist (maybe?), but the experience of time very much does.

Perhaps… it is our introspective theater of and reflection on our experience 
that, in the end, is the meaning and purpose of time itself.

Time… how the universe engages in thinking about itself.

 

 

Cheers… and be nice to each other… from time to time.

-Chris

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Re: Some questions on ontology of dreams

2015-09-21 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

I believe a person subjected to that kind of experiment would rather quickly 
become insane! And that if they were born into such an "experiment" the outcome 
result would be the same.
-Chris
  From: Bruno Marchal 
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Monday, September 21, 2015 6:09 AM
 Subject: Re: Some questions on ontology of dreams
   

On 21 Sep 2015, at 03:16, Brent Meeker wrote:

 
 If you raise kittens in complete darkness for a few weeks they never develop 
vision.  I don't think people who are born blind hallucinate visions.  Those 
are couple of data points.  I suspect that if a person were to grow up without 
any sensory input, or extremely impoverished ones, they would not develop 
human-like thoughts or consciousness at all.   They would fail to be a person.

I would say that they would fail to be a human person. But they might be like 
the kind of non human person we can feel to be in state of extreme "complete" 
amnesia. It would be like to be *any* universal machine before having any 
input. Of course, here, I do speculate, but that hypothesis marry well the 
computationalist theory of consciousness (brain processing) and the reports of 
experience of some dissociative altered consciousness state.
Bruno



 
 Brent
 
 On 9/20/2015 5:21 PM, Brian Tenneson wrote:
  
 I wonder what would happen to someone's mind if they were born in a white (or 
any color) isolation tank. What would happen as years wore on? Would the person 
ever hallucinate anything? It has only seen the tank for his whole life. So 
what would inspire him to hallucinate something? Can he hallucinate, say,  a 
friend staring at him from across the void without ever seeing a friend or 
anything for that matter except the white isolation tank. Would he dream and 
what would he dream of? Would dreaming become one with waking? Would he even 
know what a dream is? He has never heard the word "dream" spoken out loud. But 
he knows which worlds decay faster or are more "curvy" in the world-line sense: 
dreams decay faster or are more "curvy" than waking events. So, locally, we 
usually  know when it's a dream. When the event world-line is straight, that 
means we pretty much never know what is a dream and what is "real"?
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 http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



 
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RE: Idiot Test

2015-08-15 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2015 8:07 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Idiot Test

On 14 Aug 2015, at 23:21, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

  _  

From: Kim Jones  mailto:kimjo...@ozemail.com.au kimjo...@ozemail.com.au
To:  mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com 
everything-list@googlegroups.com  mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com 
everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: Idiot Test

Idiocy only ever applies to other people, yes. It's like sexual perversion 
and corruption; these things are done only by others, never by me! Why I 
speak of the need for some fabled 'test' - a bit like Alice drinking from the 
bottle marked 'drink me'. Alice was no idiot. She had the fundamental human 
curiosity to suck it and see rather than fall back on some safer, less 
interactive approach. Perhaps idiots lack the curiosity to undergo some 
experience that will doubtlesly undermine their chosen weltanshauung. 

I would agree that a profound lack of curiosity is a hallmark of idiocy. But I 
disagree that it only ever applies to other people. I contend that idiocy is 
latent and innate within all of us; and recognize that it is potentially within 
my own being… even perhaps unbeknownst to me. It is this later kind of idiocy 
that is most insidious and hardest to recognize and transcend. 

You can call me an idiot if you want but you would be using some other 
attribution criteria to the ones I am putting forward. 

I am calling no one an idiot, by calling all of us – bipedal, slightly enlarged 
fore-brain apes (on the beginning of a journey to infinity) -- out as having 
the innate potential for idiocy latent (or active as it may be) within us. 

Trouble is, if we ever really decided what constituted an idiot, there would 
soon be no more idiots because then we would have it nailed and could genuinely 
do something about it. Idiots, however, abound in society. It is more, as Bruno 
says, some willful act of denying something absurdly; a kind of mendacity. 
Furthermore, I do not consider someone an idiot who does not agree with me. 
That's where you have failed to take in the message, Chris. There are always 
alternatives, and the inability to take stock of them is where idiots reveal 
themselves. Actually, I don't go in search of agreement or disagreement. I 
prefer exploration and suspension of judgement. Explorers don't judge the 
terrain they explore; they create a map. I have changed my views several times 
over regarding core matters. Actually I find it rather easy to drop one set of 
ideas for another. For that reason, no one will ever catch me in the act of 
being certain about anything. Even about who the idiots are. 

Sure... there are always alternatives (or most of the time anyways) and idiocy 
is the mode of mind that becomes stuck in one explanation excluding all other 
possibility. 

Some would say stuck in a wrong explanation, as it might not ben so stupid to 
keep an explanation when it works. Now, technically, this is provably false in 
theoretical Artificial Intellligence as a machine able to change its mind, even 
when her explanation work, will recognize large classes of (computable) 
phenomena (by a result of Case  Smith). But that concerns competence, and I 
like to distinguish it from intelligence which I see more like a protagorean 
virtue, obeying []p - ~p.

My point is that we are all of susceptible to that idiotic mode and that it is 
vital therefore to always keep this in mind. We ourselves may be idiots at 
times (even if we think we are being brilliant). 

OK.

I am not saying anything one way or another about you or anybody else in 
particular, merely cautioning everyone (including most of all myself) that 
idiocy is an insidious trap, which can creep up from within unnoticed and will 
often masquerade itself as being something entirely more intelligent.

We must remain constantly vigilant about our own innate potential for slipping 
into idiotic mental frames; and only by recognizing this as a real and ever 
present potential existing within ourselves can we in fact remain vigilant.

Yes, that works well with the protagorean thing. The slipping is always nearby. 
There are no algorithm to prevent it, but humans have good slogan and 
heuristics, like Hell is paved with good intention, turn your tongue seven 
times in your mouth before asserting something big, etc.

Oops, I have to go,

..

Precisely…. At each frame of reference moment there are a thousand ways to slip 
down into mental ruts, beckoning with modes of belief (idocy), all wrapped up 
and sometimes most appealing in their superficial nature. Because I am acutely 
aware of just how easy it is to slip (one way or the other… so many ways to 
falter)…. I try (don’t

Re: Idiot Test

2015-08-14 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

I am curious you seem to speak of idiots exclusively in terms of them 
of some other group of individuals. Do you consider yourself to be 
potentially an idiot or have you managed to achieve existential certainty 
that idiocy is something that only ever applies to other people? If you have 
achieved this certainty -- e.g. that in no possible way could you ever be an 
idiot; that is an amazing feat or could it be incontrovertible proof of 
your own idiocy?
Any definition of idiocy that does't -- at least potentially -- include the 
self within the scope of its embrace is idotic - -IMO!
P.S. -- I am suspecting that if you respond at all, you'll probably roast me 
with scorn, for having had the temerity to suggest that idiocy is something we 
are all capable of achieving; and that no one is immune from idiotic mind modes.
-chris

 On 14 Aug 2015, at 8:21 am, chris peck chris_peck...@hotmail.com wrote:
 
 So, to cut to the chase, when a thread appears claiming the benefit of a 
 psychedelic is to work out who the idiots are, when it is suggested that the 
 substance be used in such a miserly way, I can't help but feel the people 
 suggesting that are the ones who have missed the message

I think Strassman was right. You need a certain substance in your system to be 
even able to conceive of thinking without some limiting effect of consensus. 
The human mind has a 'native' behaviour and we might refer to this as 'baseline 
consciousness'. It is merely a starting point in the enterprise of exploring 
the terrain of consciousness. 

The Idiot Test is a cynical exercise, you seemed to have missed that. It's a 
cartoon in words designed to focus on something sinister; either a lie or a 
form of stupidity. A thought bubble as we say nowadays. Just one grade better 
than a silly poster on Facebook. The term 'idiot' is a pejorative, so we do 
need another word to cover the concept the lack of imagination to envisage 
alternatives to the one currently held under any scenario which to my mind at 
least, does sound rather mentally deficient. 

But I learnt a lot from Bruno's breakdown of it. Idiocy and Intelligence are 
not polar opposites. They walk hand in hand. 

Anyway - at a certain point in the presumably not too distant future, somebody 
WILL decide who all the idiots are - using whatever rationale - and they will 
all be eliminated. Probably by an AI who worked it out all by itself.

So 

2. Idiots usually end up designing technology that eventually destroys them and 
everyone else.

So, it may be that such people also receive a Darwin Award for performing the 
inestimable service to the human race of removing their DNA from the gene pool.



K

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Re: Idiot Test

2015-08-14 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

  From: spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 12:39 PM
 Subject: Re: Idiot Test

Chris, when you can think of politicians and actors of your political 
preference, who behave idiotically: then you'd really be making a succinct 
point. The rationale being, if you agree with my position, thus, you are 
wonderful, but if you disagree, you are a moron. On this mailing list however, 
it ain't politics that drive the passion, but disagreeing with an equation, a 
precis,' a hypothesis. It's like on the show Big Bang, where blood in nearly, 
drawn, over whether String or Loop Quantum Gravity have the best explanation 
for reality, when as all right thinking people know, it's all explained by 
Chaotic Inflation. Easy peasy.  
My contention is that idiocy is innate within us all and that to claim that one 
is immune to this mind trap is itself the height of idiocy. He/she who knows 
that only others can be idiots -- because of whatever -- is even more of an 
idiot than those who, while they may still be idiots (at times) are aware of 
this latent potential for idiocy extant within themselves.-Chris 

-Original Message-
From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Aug 14, 2015 1:42 pm
Subject: Re: Idiot Test

  I am curious you seem to speak of idiots exclusively in terms of them 
of some other group of individuals. Do you consider yourself to be 
potentially an idiot or have you managed to achieve existential certainty 
that idiocy is something that only ever applies to other people? If you have 
achieved this certainty -- e.g. that in no possible way could you ever be an 
idiot; that is an amazing feat or could it be incontrovertible proof of 
your own idiocy?   
  Any definition of idiocy that does't -- at least potentially -- include the 
self within the scope of its embrace is idotic - -IMO!   
  P.S. -- I am suspecting that if you respond at all, you'll probably roast me 
with scorn, for having had the temerity to suggest that idiocy is something we 
are all capable of achieving; and that no one is immune from idiotic mind 
modes.   
  -chris   

 On 14 Aug 2015, at 8:21 am, chris peck  chris_peck...@hotmail.com wrote: 

 So, to cut to the chase, when a thread appears claiming the benefit of a 
 psychedelic is to work out who the idiots are, when it is suggested that the 
 substance be used in such a miserly way, I can't help but feel the people 
 suggesting that are the ones who have missed the message 

I think Strassman was right. You need a certain substance in your system to be 
even able to conceive of thinking without some limiting effect of consensus. 
The human mind has a 'native' behaviour and we might refer to this as 'baseline 
consciousness'. It is merely a starting point in the enterprise of exploring 
the terrain of consciousness. 

The Idiot Test is a cynical exercise, you seemed to have missed that. It's a 
cartoon in words designed to focus on something sinister; either a lie or a 
form of stupidity. A thought bubble as we say nowadays. Just one grade better 
than a silly poster on Facebook. The term 'idiot' is a pejorative, so we do 
need another word to cover the concept the lack of imagination to envisage 
alternatives to the one currently held under any scenario which to my mind at 
least, does sound rather mentally deficient. 

But I learnt a lot from Bruno's breakdown of it. Idiocy and Intelligence are 
not polar opposites. They walk hand in hand. 

Anyway - at a certain point in the presumably not too distant future, somebody 
WILL decide who all the idiots are - using whatever rationale - and they will 
all be eliminated. Probably by an AI who worked it out all by itself. 

So 

2. Idiots usually end up designing technology that eventually destroys them and 
everyone else. 

So, it may be that such people also receive a Darwin Award for performing the 
inestimable service to the human race of removing their DNA from the gene pool. 

K 

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Re: Idiot Test

2015-08-14 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List


  From: Kim Jones kimjo...@ozemail.com.au
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 2:11 PM
 Subject: Re: Idiot Test
   

Idiocy only ever applies to other people, yes. It's like sexual perversion and 
corruption; these things are done only by others, never by me! Why I speak of 
the need for some fabled 'test' - a bit like Alice drinking from the bottle 
marked 'drink me'. Alice was no idiot. She had the fundamental human curiosity 
to suck it and see rather than fall back on some safer, less interactive 
approach. Perhaps idiots lack the curiosity to undergo some experience that 
will doubtlesly undermine their chosen weltanshauung. 
You can call me an idiot if you want but you would be using some other 
attribution criteria to the ones I am putting forward. Trouble is, if we ever 
really decided what constituted an idiot, there would soon be no more idiots 
because then we would have it nailed and could genuinely do something about it. 
Idiots, however, abound in society. It is more, as Bruno says, some willful act 
of denying something absurdly; a kind of mendacity. Furthermore, I do not 
consider someone an idiot who does not agree with me. That's where you have 
failed to take in the message, Chris. There are always alternatives, and the 
inability to take stock of them is where idiots reveal themselves. Actually, I 
don't go in search of agreement or disagreement. I prefer exploration and 
suspension of judgement. Explorers don't judge the terrain they explore; they 
create a map. I have changed my views several times over regarding core 
matters. Actually I find it rather easy to drop one set of ideas for another. 
For that reason, no one will ever catch me in the act of being certain about 
anything. Even about who the idiots are. 
Sure... there are always alternatives (or most of the time anyways) and idiocy 
is the mode of mind that becomes stuck in one explanation excluding all other 
possibility. My point is that we are all of susceptible to that idiotic mode 
and that it is vital therefore to always keep this in mind. We ourselves may be 
idiots at times (even if we think we are being brilliant). I am not saying 
anything one way or another about you or anybody else in particular, merely 
cautioning everyone (including most of all myself) that idiocy is an insidious 
trap, which can creep up from within unnoticed and will often masquerade itself 
as being something entirely more intelligent.We must remain constantly vigilant 
about our own innate potential for slipping into idiotic mental frames; and 
only by recognizing this as a real and ever present potential existing within 
ourselves can we in fact remain vigilant.
-Chris
K
 


On 15 Aug 2015, at 5:39 am, spudboy100 via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:


Chris, when you can think of politicians and actors of your political 
preference, who behave idiotically: then you'd really be making a succinct 
point. The rationale being, if you agree with my position, thus, you are 
wonderful, but if you disagree, you are a moron. On this mailing list however, 
it ain't politics that drive the passion, but disagreeing with an equation, a 
precis,' a hypothesis. It's like on the show Big Bang, where blood in nearly, 
drawn, over whether String or Loop Quantum Gravity have the best explanation 
for reality, when as all right thinking people know, it's all explained by 
Chaotic Inflation. Easy peasy.  
 
 
-Original Message-
From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Aug 14, 2015 1:42 pm
Subject: Re: Idiot Test

  I am curious you seem to speak of idiots exclusively in terms of them 
of some other group of individuals. Do you consider yourself to be 
potentially an idiot or have you managed to achieve existential certainty 
that idiocy is something that only ever applies to other people? If you have 
achieved this certainty -- e.g. that in no possible way could you ever be an 
idiot; that is an amazing feat or could it be incontrovertible proof of 
your own idiocy?   
  Any definition of idiocy that does't -- at least potentially -- include the 
self within the scope of its embrace is idotic - -IMO!   
  P.S. -- I am suspecting that if you respond at all, you'll probably roast me 
with scorn, for having had the temerity to suggest that idiocy is something we 
are all capable of achieving; and that no one is immune from idiotic mind 
modes.   
  -chris   
 
 On 14 Aug 2015, at 8:21 am, chris peck  chris_peck...@hotmail.com wrote: 
 
 So, to cut to the chase, when a thread appears claiming the benefit of a 
 psychedelic is to work out who the idiots are, when it is suggested that the 
 substance be used in such a miserly way, I can't help but feel the people 
 suggesting that are the ones who have missed the message 
 
I think Strassman

RE: Idiot Test

2015-08-14 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

I agree with you there…. Idiocy is the quintessential equal opportunity 
provider – (in a nod to your politically fixated mindset) it thrives exuberant, 
on both the right and the left. Idiocy is in full reign amongst the elite in 
their gilded enclaves and in the grimy dirty dangerous graffiti hallways of the 
project slum. 

 

But it does not stop there, nor does it begin from there. Idiocy emerges from 
within, far, far  closer to home.. to the self, the inner voice that asks the 
question… we are each of us within this home of homes. It is within these 
bounds that idiocy is hardest to perceive and harder to deal with. Case in 
point many very intelligent people are (in some dimension) veritable idiots 
within. A most natural outcome, of our brain/mind sensorial being… for to see 
within….  Where are the eyes to see within?

 

We are oriented to see without; seeing within is largely an accidental 
exceptional occurrence and is not something that is easy for most of us to do. 
As a consequence we are usually most blind within our own selves. Intelligence 
is no defense against inner idiocy either, for idiocy is adept at burying 
itself beneath layers upon layers of justification heaped over bullshit. Idiocy 
tends to also lock in, becoming habitual behavior, existing in the (largely) 
unseen regions of mind… the crackling vastly parallel network… balanced on the 
edge of chaos..  this very noisy, reifying inner-verse of the mind, 
auto-catalyzed self-emergent being… emerging into our consciousness as an inner 
dialogue of the mind.

 

Idiocy is a slippery eel; it is foolish to underestimate its ability to find a 
way in to the unseen within… it is difficult to grab hold of.

-Chris

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] 
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 6:12 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Idiot Test

 

I simply feel it is hard to identify idiocy when it hits closer to home. In 
fact, as I stated, holding a certain position or opinion may not, in fact be 
idiotic at all. I sometimes feel, some days, that if idiocy were nirvana, I 
would be achieving my zen moment with it. On this forum, discussion-wise, yeah, 
we name call. I shrug this off as human nature, and am more interested in 
seeing if these conversations yield anything dramatically, interesting for me? 



-Original Message-
From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Fri, Aug 14, 2015 5:17 pm
Subject: Re: Idiot Test

 

 

  _  

From: spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Friday, August 14, 2015 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: Idiot Test

 

Chris, when you can think of politicians and actors of your political 
preference, who behave idiotically: then you'd really be making a succinct 
point. The rationale being, if you agree with my position, thus, you are 
wonderful, but if you disagree, you are a moron. On this mailing list however, 
it ain't politics that drive the passion, but disagreeing with an equation, a 
precis,' a hypothesis. It's like on the show Big Bang, where blood in nearly, 
drawn, over whether String or Loop Quantum Gravity have the best explanation 
for reality, when as all right thinking people know, it's all explained by 
Chaotic Inflation. Easy peasy.  

 

My contention is that idiocy is innate within us all and that to claim that one 
is immune to this mind trap is itself the height of idiocy. He/she who knows 
that only others can be idiots -- because of whatever -- is even more of an 
idiot than those who, while they may still be idiots (at times) are aware of 
this latent potential for idiocy extant within themselves. 

-Chris 

 

 

-Original Message- 
From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com 
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Fri, Aug 14, 2015 1:42 pm 
Subject: Re: Idiot Test 

I am curious you seem to speak of idiots exclusively in terms of them 
of some other group of individuals. Do you consider yourself to be 
potentially an idiot or have you managed to achieve existential certainty 
that idiocy is something that only ever applies to other people? If you have 
achieved this certainty -- e.g. that in no possible way could you ever be an 
idiot; that is an amazing feat or could it be incontrovertible proof of 
your own idiocy? 

 

Any definition of idiocy that does't -- at least potentially -- include the 
self within the scope of its embrace is idotic - -IMO! 

 

P.S. -- I am suspecting that if you respond at all, you'll probably roast me 
with scorn, for having had the temerity to suggest that idiocy is something we 
are all capable of achieving; and that no one is immune from idiotic mind 
modes. 

 

-chris 

 


 On 14 Aug 2015, at 8:21 am, chris peck  chris_peck...@hotmail.com wrote: 
 
 So

RE: ISIS The Start of World War III?

2015-07-14 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

 have do stomach to do this either yet-have you 
noticed? There are great energy ideas but for some magical reason they don't 
get traction. It reflects the same irresolution on dealing with international 
totalitarianism. No will, no guts, 

 

The world is run to produce short term profits for central global money banks; 
as long as this remains the driver; world affairs will continue on as they 
have, bouncing from regional war to regional war (war is good business, for the 
death merchants and the death bankers)

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Jul 12, 2015 5:41 pm
Subject: RE: ISIS The Start of World War III?

No… not underestimating the vindictiveness of ISIS (and their ilk) at all; nor 
am I disputing that ISIS are vindictive vicious monsters, actually. 

This particular flourishing of assembled psychotic insane assholes most 
certainly do suffer an extreme delusional messianic medieval minded hatred of 
all others and are vindictive in the extreme. I harbor no doubts that they 
would slit my throat – in their psychosis claiming it was for Allah -- if they 
could.

I however do question their long term viability as an organization and movement 
– even within the regional context within which they operate. For example, even 
Al Qaeda itself is becoming increasingly critical of ISIS and its barbaric 
brutality! When, even the preeminent jihadi global movement is finding their 
acts to be horrific and unjustifiable you got to question their long term 
viability as a movement! 

I also question their strategic/tactical/logistical reach and doubt that they 
can do much more than potentially causing a few sporadic terrorist attacks here 
and there in the Western world and elsewhere (Africa, Asia for example). A 
terrorist attack, even one of the hyper scale of 911 (which is historically 
very rare), horrific as it may be (and I witnessed 911 up close and personal – 
was in Princeton NJ at the time and the aftermath was something I will never 
forget!), but yet still poses no existential strategic challenge for our 
nation. Our nation will not crumble or be destroyed as an effective fighting 
force because of something of this nature. Actually the opposite result would 
ensue! The USA has continental scale strategic depth, global military, 
political, cultural and economic reach. A ragtag upstart psychopath jihadist 
brand name – e.g. ISIS – poses no actual existential threat to the US. 

And that IS my point!

My corollary to this is that our planet is currently facing real actual 
existential threats, which we can do something about – both in terms of 
mitigating our impact and restoring the health of this planets living systems. 
Few people like to consider that we are living at the kickoff of one of our 
planets greatest extinction events – ever in its geologic history; an 
extinction event that promises to be on par with the one that killed most of 
the non-avian dinosaurs. This extinction event is triggering the beginning of a 
new epoch for this planet – like all the great extinction events that have 
preceded it. Each extinction event gives rise to a new era; our particular 
extinction event is being given the name Anthropocene – it is in our honor. For 
we, our species and the actions of our species, we are the driving causal 
factor that is at the base of this wave of planetary dying, which is going on 
right now.

I find this great wave of planetary dying; of species extinction (which is 
occurring at a far higher rate than the historical average over the past say 
ten million years)… I personally am far more troubled and concerned by this, 
than I am by a regional group of medieval psychopaths in some far away land.

For me it is the principal of correctly stack ranking actual real threats to 
our future in an ordering that actually makes sense – in a qualitative, real 
world, fact based manner. 

What are the real threats to our future? To humanity’s potential to achieve a 
transformational leap into becoming a multi-planetary, solar system spanning 
resource based, micro-gravity space (La Grange point) based industrial society!

If you want to stop ISIS, shine a bright light on Turkey, Saudi 
Arabia/Kuwait/Gulf States, Israel and other regional actors who are behind 
ISIS. Without these other actors (not so) covert support ISIS would crumble.

-Chris

 

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com 
mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] 
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015 11:51 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: ISIS The Start of World War III?

 

All well and good, but I am surmising that you underestimate the vindictiveness 
from others, who see life differently than yourself. For instance, the European 
epoch of imperialism, which we all know about, is shameful look backwards

Re: ISIS The Start of World War III?

2015-07-14 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

It is the perfect war for eternal profit (profit for the MIC and the banks that 
are behind it, that is)... a war against a tactic is guaranteed to never be 
won, which is the perfect outcome for the guarantee of a continuous stream of 
revenue for the MIC.
It is excellent business -- for that business at least -- for the rest of us it 
sucks!
  From: thermo therm...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2015 9:37 AM
 Subject: Re: ISIS The Start of World War III?

Is the War Against Terrorism World War IV ?
2015-07-14 12:51 GMT-03:00 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com:

  From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] 
Sent: Monday, July 13, 2015 8:56 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: ISIS The Start of World War III? My issue is that yes, at this 
point ISIS seem to present no domestic danger, however leaders of the word have 
continuously underestimated their successes. Italy may be their next target, or 
Spain in a Re-Conquista of their own. Moreover, this ideology is not in its 
actions, alone in the Islamic world. But they are, for propaganda purposes, the 
most honest, and clear, and yes, successful.  A terrorist act here and there in 
Italy, Spain or France (or ANYWHERE) – and that is all ISIS is capable of, even 
at a stretch – does not cause the targeted society to crumble in abject 
submission. You mention re-concquista – I ask you where is this re-conquista?, 
outside of the talk shows it is mentioned on. 

So, what to do? Nobody (astonishingly) is asking my advice on this, or any 
other matter, which is shocking to me. Having said this, I am supposing that 
bad Ju-Ju is on the way, because of western weaknesses (my perception) and 
prepare. It may not be ISIS that does the dirty dead, whatever deed that is, 
but ISIS, like an aggressive, secondary disease, will take advantage of a 
weakened immune system. You seem to have a lot of interest in energy, of 
course, so if I were you, I'd focus on saving your own behind in the midst of 
an unplanned power outage, that PGE, or Seattle Power and Light,  will not 
resolve for weeks, for this seems to be a juicy target, I'd wager. I am an 
apartment dweller so following this advice myself (however hypocritical)  is 
unwise.  A single solar flare of the intensity of the super flare that was 
recorded in the late 1800s would set up an induced current that would short out 
entire grid, blowing transformers. This is something that actually can happen 
(in fact it HAS happened less than 150 years ago) and would have far more 
disastrous consequences for our society. Are we doing anything to protect 
ourselves from this very real threat? Not much, as far as I can see; hardening 
the grid will cost many billions of dollars, and unless mandated this money 
will not be spent. So we continue on exposed to this – actual real threat (as 
opposed to the bogey man threats you seem to love to focus on). This is just a 
single example of our societal myopia.

The world will follow the Stronger Horse, so if ISIS goes from strength to 
strength, But ISIS is not going from strength to strength – Syrian/Hezbollah 
forces are rolling it back from the west; Kurdish forces (+Iranian supported 
Iraqi forces) are enjoying some success in the east (it is mixed, because the 
Iraqi army is a shambles). ISIS is not strong. Don’t confuse brutality with 
strength; Iran can take care of ISIS (and will, defeating the Saudi attempt 
(for what is ISIS?) at interjecting itself into the arc of conflict now 
centered in Syria. the Europeans will cut a deal with them, once ISIS gains 
more territory, gets more cash, recruits more cash, whatever it takes. If not 
ISIS than Al Qaeda, if not Al Qaeda, then Iranian Mullahs Iran has never 
supported messianic global terrorist movements; Hezbollah for example is a very 
kind of organization than say AL Qaida or ISIS (which it is on the front line 
of fighting)  (check today's news! If not Iran, maybe Pakistan, if not 
Pakistan, North Korea, if not North Korea, then a nice war in the Pacific with 
China, if not China, then Putin. Maybe all of them at once, once we lose a city 
or three, afterwards. The majority of of our species despises the weak, and I 
accept this, but do not condone this. Just thinking of what anthropologists 
have demonstrated.  I highly suggest you take a vacation from war fever it is 
unhealthy. China and the US are not about to get into any war – it would be far 
to costly for both sides and both sides know this! All the posturing in the 
South China Sea may make for large headlines, but it will not trigger an actual 
large scale war. Now the Ukraine is another story – though this is mostly a 
nightmare for the Ukrainians themselves. 

If the US has all this power, we surely have applied it wrong, or the political 
will to use it against bad actors.  I wonder if you fully grasp just how

RE: ISIS The Start of World War III?

2015-07-12 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

No I am objecting to the making of ISIS into the central existential problem 
that must define our times; they are a largely regional phenomenon (with a 
certain internet reach resulting from their use of graphic brutality). The 
planet earth has far more serious existential problems than ISIS.

ISIS is a side freak show – a freak show of extreme brutality for sure, but a 
freak show never the less. If Saudi/Kuwaiti funding was shut off the monster 
would quickly dry up and wither away. ISIS is Iraq’s problem, it is Syria’s 
problem, it is Iran’s or the Kurd’s problem perhaps, but it is not and never 
will amount to an existential military threat against the West.

I do not see any good reason why our country should become even more involved 
in this mess than it already is – having largely been responsible for the 
creation of the conditions which led to the evolution of these psychopath 
monsters in the first place. ISIS (nor anything like it) did not exist under 
the Baathist regime of Saddam Hussein lest we forget; the Baathist regime was 
an implacable enemy of Islamic fundamentalism; it was a Stalinist regime in 
fact (a very different animal). The US (in its infinite wisdom) utterly 
destroyed the Baathist regime in a series of bloody expensive wars and a ten 
year long occupation of Iraq; ISIS is the predictable blowback of Abu Ghraib 
and the US occupation of Iraq during the first decade of this millennium. Now, 
I am not extolling the Baathist regime as a paradigm of humanism (though woman 
and Christians,  to cite some examples, had far more rights and opportunity 
under Saddam Hussein’s Iraq than they do in the Iraqi “freedom” the US so 
kindly brought to their land).

The US should focus more on taking care of our own country and let other people 
sort out their own destinies. Let Iran handle ISIS (and to a degree ISIS is a 
proxy war between the Gulf Arab regimes and the Iranians); why should we bloody 
our hands in this mess?

ISIS is no existential threat to the US and if we stood out of the way (or as 
we are to some extent to continue to provide discreet logistical and air 
support) Iranian and Kurdish backed forces from one side and Syrian/Hezbollah 
forces from the other side will keep ISIS very well contained.

Those who seek to learn about the rise of ISIS need to understand the roles 
played by these various regional actors prominently including: Turkey, Israel, 
Saudi Arabia/Kuwait/Gulf states in fomenting ISIS as a tool to destroy the 
Baathist Syrian regime – and seen in the larger context of an arc of struggle 
between Saudi, Turkish and Iranian influence broken down largely along 
sectarian lines.

-Chris

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] 
Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2015 8:53 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: ISIS The Start of World War III?

 

I don't think this is Manicheanism, You are objecting to fact that ISIS does 
bad things, or that people oppose the bad things that ISIS does? The leadership 
of the US especially, view passivity on the US part, as an unalloyed virtue. On 
the other hand, with the president's involvement wit Iran (read the news 
tomorrow) may have decided to adopt a let em kill each other, policy in which 
Sunni's and Shia, massacre each other. Perhaps with the thought that with 
enough war and massacre's maybe a calm will then take place?   

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Jul 11, 2015 9:48 pm
Subject: RE: ISIS The Start of World War III?

Who elected you dispenser of prizes, ignobal or otherwise…. net nanny? 

As you make clear by your own subsequent words I can see you must be a fellow 
sufferer of the Manichean delusion, speaking in those exaggerated apocalyptic 
tongues you types favor.

Thanks, but no thanks… I don’t need, desire or see the fruit in your peculiar 
kind of religion; mind set; world view… whatever you wish to call it. It is not 
based on a rational analysis of actual geopolitical strength, but rather 
appeals to irrational Manichean idiocy and lurid anecdotal tales told over and 
over again.

This world of ours is enough of a tinder box already without the added idiocy 
of war mongering nutters – like ISIS as well -- wanting to ignite another 
crusade/jihad.

I hope this makes my opinion even clearer to you. 

Just in case, in typical Manichean fashion you use my complete rejection of 
your hyperbolic world view, as a rhetorical hammer to try to shape me into some 
kind of sympathizer or something vaguely treasonous sounding – as your fellow 
crusader spudboy has in fact insinuated in my case  on numerous previous 
occasions – let me – a priori – make it clear that my current complete 
rejection of your insane fallacy does not imply any kind of support or 
tolerance of the medieval minded brutality of the murderous

RE: May be of interest

2015-07-11 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

Nice articles, Liz and thanks for sharing them. I agree with the first articles 
supposition that infinitely bent spacetime seems more like an artifact of 
theoretical breakdown than a reflection of how the fabric of reality actually 
behaves (under extreme conditions) – infinities in general are indicative of 
missing (or inaccurate) theory. My hats off to these experimentalists; finding 
(and proposing) new clever levers to unveil what seemed impossible for us to 
ever know.

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR
Sent: Friday, July 10, 2015 10:35 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: May be of interest

 

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/03/testing-general-relativity-using-x-rays/

http://arstechnica.com/science/2015/04/new-evidence-that-dark-matter-could-be-self-interacting/

http://arstechnica.co.uk/science/2015/06/relativitys-time-dilation-may-limit-the-quantum-world/

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RE: ISIS The Start of World War III?

2015-07-11 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

You suffer from raving psychological mind ghosts; carefully nurtured paranoid 
Manichean delusions brought upon by the ingestion of too much war propaganda. 

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] 
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 8:36 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: ISIS The Start of World War III?

 

Icke is an interesting, but paranoid character. If ISIS, or any element from 
the Islamic World causes a 4th world war (The Cold War was actually WW3), then 
it is not any member of the Uma's fault, but instead the weakness, the 
cowardice, the irresolution, of 'so called' Western leaders. Perfection with 
one's fellows humans is fraught with disappointment, because people will always 
disappoint. But, the leadership of the so-called West, is so bad that it 
invites attack from ISIS or anyone else.As Bin Laden said, People like the 
stronger horse. Leaders here are so weak, that if ISIS attacked, they might 
win. Who now knows?  

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Jul 11, 2015 1:36 am
Subject: Fwd: ISIS The Start of World War III?

Begin forwarded message:  


ISIS The Start of World War III?


David Icke interview 

Video link:   
http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?266299-ISIS-The-Start-of-World-War-III
 
http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?266299-ISIS-The-Start-of-World-War-III
  

 

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RE: ISIS The Start of World War III?

2015-07-11 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

Who elected you dispenser of prizes, ignobal or otherwise…. net nanny? 

As you make clear by your own subsequent words I can see you must be a fellow 
sufferer of the Manichean delusion, speaking in those exaggerated apocalyptic 
tongues you types favor.

Thanks, but no thanks… I don’t need, desire or see the fruit in your peculiar 
kind of religion; mind set; world view… whatever you wish to call it. It is not 
based on a rational analysis of actual geopolitical strength, but rather 
appeals to irrational Manichean idiocy and lurid anecdotal tales told over and 
over again.

This world of ours is enough of a tinder box already without the added idiocy 
of war mongering nutters – like ISIS as well -- wanting to ignite another 
crusade/jihad.

I hope this makes my opinion even clearer to you. 

Just in case, in typical Manichean fashion you use my complete rejection of 
your hyperbolic world view, as a rhetorical hammer to try to shape me into some 
kind of sympathizer or something vaguely treasonous sounding – as your fellow 
crusader spudboy has in fact insinuated in my case  on numerous previous 
occasions – let me – a priori – make it clear that my current complete 
rejection of your insane fallacy does not imply any kind of support or 
tolerance of the medieval minded brutality of the murderous lunatics of ISIS. 
Just so we are clear on this, and because this is a usual rhetorical tactic 
that war junkies commonly use against those who publicly oppose their agenda. 

 

Now speaking directly to your facile and childish disparaging of the term 
“psychological mind ghosts”. If you actually knew the mind – instead of merely 
pontificating about it, which you seem to do a lot of -- you would know that 
there is quite a bit of evidence that our minds are inhabited by numerous 
zombie neural processes, of which we remain consciously unaware; these are our 
mind ghosts; they are ghosts in our minds. We – the conscious self-aware part 
of ourselves at least -- are to a large degree informed and formed by these 
dynamically evolving entities comprised of synchronized neural firing networks. 
They can take dynamic movies of these neural firing networks evolving as 
thoughts form and perception is perceived! If we did not have any ghosts in our 
minds; would we have any minds at all?

Those who think their self-aware minds are comprised by the narrative voice in 
their heads alone, are suggestive of those who, for so long believed the 
celestial bodies revolved around the earth. If, in fact, you accept that by far 
most of who you are actually occurs outside of the boundaries of your own 
self-aware narrative (and narrator); then why on earth would you feel that 
“psychological mind ghosts” was just an insult, worthy of your net nanny 
interventionist response, awarding me the most Ignobal prize – so kind of you 
to do that really.

More people die of bee stings… bathtub falls… and certainly far more people die 
and become horribly wounded in traffic accidents than people dying by this kind 
of terrorism; yet you seem to want to raise it up on the altar of some bloody 
crusade around which we must all align ourselves marching lemming like over the 
cliffs of oblivion. Excuse me, but I am going to pass on that world view, and I 
will continue to ridicule it as well; it is a world view most richly deserving 
of ridicule.

Let us laugh together… for it is patently ridiculous that ISIS poses an 
existential threat to the USA, or even to your own country Australia. Unless 
you are living in Syria or Iraq, or somewhere that is too close to the small 
region where ISIS has the logistical ability to pose a threat then it is not a 
threat and to insist that it must be our most existential cause around which we 
must all rally… well that just reeks of fascism to me.

Yours truly,

-Chris

 

 

 

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kim Jones
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 5:40 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: ISIS The Start of World War III?

 

 

On 12 Jul 2015, at 3:09 am, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

You suffer from raving psychological mind ghosts; carefully nurtured paranoid 
Manichean delusions brought upon by the ingestion of too much war propaganda. 

 

 

Psychological mind ghosts - Lol. 

 

I think with that you probably score the Ignobel Prize for adjectival abuse. 
SB's thinking on this is entirely rational and highly probable from where I am. 
Western leaders ARE all as weak as piss. They are all screaming for someone to 
come along and rip their bloody heads off with a blunt bread knife, yes. Icke 
is something of a nutter, but he at least has the balls to face the music that 
no one else does. 

 

Kim

 

 

 





 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] 
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 8:36 AM
To: everything-list

RE: ISIS The Start of World War III?

2015-07-11 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

Only you can free yourself from the unhealthy war paranoia that seethes -- 
largely unexamined -- within your mind. 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] 
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 4:11 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: ISIS The Start of World War III?

Thanks dr.

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

-Original Message-
From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Jul 11, 2015 01:09 PM
Subject: RE: ISIS The Start of World War III?

You suffer from raving psychological mind ghosts; carefully nurtured paranoid 
Manichean delusions brought upon by the ingestion of too much war propaganda. 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com 
mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com? ] 
Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2015 8:36 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: ISIS The Start of World War III?

Icke is an interesting, but paranoid character. If ISIS, or any element from 
the Islamic World causes a 4th world war (The Cold War was actually WW3), then 
it is not any member of the Uma's fault, but instead the weakness, the 
cowardice, the irresolution, of 'so called' Western leaders. Perfection with 
one's fellows humans is fraught with disappointment, because people will always 
disappoint. But, the leadership of the so-called West, is so bad that it 
invites attack from ISIS or anyone else.As Bin Laden said, People like the 
stronger horse. Leaders here are so weak, that if ISIS attacked, they might 
win. Who now knows?  

-Original Message-
From: Samiya Illias samiyaill...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Jul 11, 2015 1:36 am
Subject: Fwd: ISIS The Start of World War III?

Begin forwarded message:  

ISIS The Start of World War III?

David Icke interview 

Video link:  
http://www.siasat.pk/forum/showthread.php?266299-ISIS-The-Start-of-World-War-III

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RE Quantum theory: Einstein saves the quantum cat

2015-06-17 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/06/150616102353.htm

 

Quantum theory: Einstein saves the quantum cat

 

Date: June 16, 2015

Source: University of Vienna

[snip]

 

In 1915 [[[100 years ago!]]] Albert Einstein formulated the theory of general 
relativity which fundamentally changed our understanding of gravity. He 
explained gravity as the manifestation of the curvature of space and time. 
Einstein's theory predicts that the flow of time is altered by mass. This 
effect, known as gravitational time dilation, causes time to be slowed down 
near a massive object. It affects everything and everybody; in fact, people 
working on the ground floor will age slower than their colleagues a floor 
above, by about 10 nanoseconds in one year. This tiny effect has actually been 
confirmed in many experiments with very precise clocks. Now, a team of 
researchers from the University of Vienna, Harvard University and the 
University of Queensland have discovered that the slowing down of time can 
explain another perplexing phenomenon: the transition from quantum behavior to 
our classical, everyday world.

 

How gravity suppresses quantum behavior

 

Quantum theory, the other major discovery in physics in the early 20th century, 
predicts that the fundamental building blocks of nature show fascinating and 
mind-boggling behavior. Extrapolated to the scales of our everyday life quantum 
theory leads to situations such as the famous example of Schroedinger's cat: 
the cat is neither dead nor alive, but in a so-called quantum superposition of 
both. Yet such a behavior has only been confirmed experimentally with small 
particles and has never been observed with real-world cats. Therefore, 
scientists conclude that something must cause the suppression of quantum 
phenomena on larger, everyday scales. Typically this happens because of 
interaction with other surrounding particles.

 

The research team, headed by Caslav Brukner from the University of Vienna and 
the Institute of Quantum Optics and Quantum Information, found that time 
dilation also plays a major role in the demise of quantum effects. They 
calculated that once the small building blocks form larger, composite objects 
-- such as molecules and eventually larger structures like microbes or dust 
particles -, the time dilation on Earth can cause a suppression of their 
quantum behavior. The tiny building blocks jitter ever so slightly, even as 
they form larger objects. And this jitter is affected by time dilation: it is 
slowed down on the ground and speeds up at higher altitudes. The researchers 
have shown that this effect destroys the quantum superposition and, thus, 
forces larger objects to behave as we expect in everyday life.

 

Paving the way for the next generation of quantum experiments

 

It is quite surprising that gravity can play any role in quantum mechanics, 
says Igor Pikovski, who is the lead author of the publication and is now 
working at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics: Gravity is usually 
studied on astronomical scales, but it seems that it also alters the quantum 
nature of the smallest particles on Earth. It remains to be seen what the 
results imply on cosmological scales, where gravity can be much stronger, adds 
Brukner. The results of Pikovski and his co-workers reveal how larger particles 
lose their quantum behavior due to their own composition, if one takes time 
dilation into account. This prediction should be observable in experiments in 
the near future, which could shed some light on the fascinating interplay 
between the two great theories of the 20th century, quantum theory and general 
relativity.

 

Story Source:

 

The above post is reprinted from  
http://medienportal.univie.ac.at/presse/aktuelle-pressemeldungen/detailansicht/artikel/einstein-saves-the-quantum-cat/
 materials provided by  http://www.univie.ac.at/en/ University of Vienna.

 

Journal Reference:

 

Igor Pikovski, Magdalena Zych, Fabio Costa, Časlav Brukner. Universal 
decoherence due to gravitational time dilation. Nature Physics, 2015; DOI:  
http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/nphys3366 10.1038/nphys3366

 

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Re: FYI If you use Lastpass to remember your passwords you need to change them -- it was hacked

2015-06-15 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

I don't use it -- nor would I, but passing this warning along in case anyone 
thought the convenience was worth the risk.
Lastpass, the site that remembers your passwords for you,was hacked.


 
Sauce: 
http://gizmodo.com/lastpass-defender-of-our-passwords-just-got-hacked-1711475964


 
If you use it, you should update it.

 

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Re: Recent methane spikes in the arctic

2015-06-08 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

The business as usual position seemingly seeks to ignore this kind of data. 
After all it is rather inconvenient for the position that they hold that: 
either no warming is going on; or else all measured warming is just the result 
of some hypothetical mysterious natural cycle that has little to do with 
industrial era emissions.And if all of that fails then to the fall back 
position of warming... it is good for the planet.

  From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 7:40 PM
 Subject: Re: Recent methane spikes in the arctic

The Doomsday argument is looking increasingly realistic.

On 8 June 2015 at 14:20, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embeddedv=p2ckkxEnWpA-- 
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RE: Recent methane spikes in the arctic

2015-06-07 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embeddedv=p2ckkxEnWpA

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Re: Apparently, even oil cmopanies want a carbon tax

2015-06-04 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List


  From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, June 3, 2015 5:27 PM
 Subject: Re: Apparently, even oil cmopanies want a carbon tax
   
On 6/3/2015 3:32 PM, LizR wrote:
 http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-06-01/even-big-oil-wants-a-carbon-tax

I believe that when James Inhofe votes for it.
Yes, that would be a real indication. When their loud mouth in DC advocates 
this we will be able to draw some real fact based conclusions; otherwise this 
is just corporate PR spin.-Chris

Brent

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RE: And now for more news

2015-06-03 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

Sometimes Borowitz really nails it.. It gave me a laugh. maybe you'll get a
chuckle

 

http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/mccain-urges-military-strikes
-against-fifa

 

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RE: Reconciling Random Neuron Firings and Fading Qualia

2015-05-18 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

-Original Message-
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Stathis Papaioannou
Sent: Monday, May 18, 2015 10:07 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Reconciling Random Neuron Firings and Fading Qualia

On 19 May 2015 at 14:45, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Mon, May 18, 2015 at 9:21 PM, Stathis Papaioannou 
 stath...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 On 19 May 2015 at 11:02, Jason Resch jasonre...@gmail.com wrote:

  I think you're not taking into account the level of the functional 
  substitution. Of course functionally equivalent silicon and 
  functionally equivalent neurons can (under functionalism) both 
  instantiate the same consciousness. But a calculator computing 2+3 
  cannot substitute for a human brain computing 2+3 and produce the 
  same consciousness.

 In a gradual replacement the substitution must obviously be at a 
 level sufficient to maintain the function of the whole brain. 
 Sticking a calculator in it won't work.

  Do you think a Blockhead that was functionally equivalent to you 
  (it could fool all your friends and family in a Turing test 
  scenario into thinking it was intact you) would be conscious in the 
  same way as you?

 Not necessarily, just as an actor may not be conscious in the same 
 way as me. But I suspect the Blockhead would be conscious; the 
 intuition that a lookup table can't be conscious is like the 
 intuition that an electric circuit can't be conscious.

 I don't see an equivalency between those intuitions. A lookup table 
 has a bounded and very low degree of computational complexity: all 
 answers to all queries are answered in constant time.

 While the table itself may have an arbitrarily high information 
 content, what in the software of the lookup table program is there to 
 appreciate/understand/know that information?

Understanding emerges from the fact that the lookup table is immensely large. 
It could be wrong, but I don't think it is obviously less plausible than 
understanding emerging from a Turing machine made of tin cans.

Yes... but, the table's immensely large is a measure of its capacity to store 
information. A complex real time system also requires the ability to handle 
immense scale of throughput; for example our sensorial streams. Without a 
capacity for scaling up in the dimension of capacity to handle streams of 
information all one can ever end up with is a mass storage system (bottlenecked 
by its limited capacity for handling throughput) 

We could never experience the exquisitely rendered reality we all perceive -- 
from the vantage pint of our privileged inside looking out point of view -- 
were it not for the incredible parallelism accelerated ability of our advanced 
(for this planet) brains to process reality *as it happens*! Our brains are not 
only big in their ability to store information; they are incredibly powerful 
parallel processors that chew through massive real time streams, performing all 
manner of pattern detection matching; memory recall operations, decisional 
executive processing, memory update and commit operations. For every thought we 
are consciously aware of, a vast parallelized self-error correcting distributed 
processing and quorum based decisional neural network has been in operation.
Ability to handle massive throughput matters!
Chris de Morsella

--
Stathis Papaioannou

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RE: Climate scientists find warming in higher atmosphere: Elusive tropospheric hot spot located

2015-05-15 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/05/150514095741.htm

Climate scientists find warming in higher atmosphere: Elusive tropospheric hot 
spot located
Date: May 14, 2015Source: University of New South WalesSummary: Updated data 
and better analysis methods have found clear indications of warming in the 
upper troposphere and a 10 percent increase in winds over the Southern Ocean. 
The inability to detect this hotspot previously has been used by those who 
doubt human-made global warming to suggest climate change is not occurring as a 
result of increasing carbon dioxide emissions.
Researchers have published results in Environmental Research Letters confirming 
strong warming in the upper troposphere, known colloquially as the tropospheric 
hotspot. The hot[spot] has been long expected as part of global warming theory 
and appears in many global climate models.
The inability to detect this hotspot previously has been used by those who 
doubt human-made global warming to suggest climate change is not occurring as a 
result of increasing carbon dioxide emissions.
Using more recent data and better analysis methods we have been able to 
re-examine the global weather balloon network, known as radiosondes, and have 
found clear indications of warming in the upper troposphere, said lead author 
ARC Centre of Excellence for Climate System Science Chief Investigator Prof 
Steve Sherwood.
We were able to do this by producing a publicly available temperature and wind 
data set of the upper troposphere extending from 1958-2012, so it is there for 
anyone to see.
The new dataset was the result of extending an existing data record and then 
removing artefacts caused by station moves and instrument changes. This 
revealed real changes in temperature as opposed to the artificial changes 
generated by alterations to the way the data was collected.
No climate models were used in the process that revealed the tropospheric 
hotspot. The researchers instead used observations and combined two well-known 
techniques -- linear regression and Kriging.
We deduced from the data what natural weather and climate variations look 
like, then found anomalies in the data that looked more like sudden one-off 
shifts from these natural variations and removed them, said Prof Sherwood.
All of this was done using a well established procedure developed by 
statisticians in 1977.
The results show that even though there has been a slowdown in the warming of 
the global average temperatures on the surface of Earth, the warming has 
continued strongly throughout the troposphere except for a very thin layer at 
around 14-15km above the surface of Earth where it has warmed slightly less.
As well as confirming the tropospheric hotspot, the researchers also found a 
10% increase in winds over the Southern Ocean. The character of this increase 
suggests it may be the result of ozone depletion.
I am very interested in these wind speed increases and whether they may have 
also played some role in slowing down the warming at the surface of the ocean, 
said Prof Sherwood.
However, one thing this improved data set shows us is that we should no longer 
accept the claim that there is warming missing higher in the atmosphere. That 
warming is now clearly seen.
Story Source:
The above story is based on materials provided by University of New South Wales.
Journal Reference:
Steven C Sherwood, Nidhi Nishant. Atmospheric changes through 2012 as shown by 
iteratively homogenized radiosonde temperature and wind data 
(IUKv2).Environmental Research Letters, 2015; 10 (5): 054007 DOI: 
10.1088/1748-9326/10/5/054007

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Re: Michael Shermer becomes sceptical about scepticism!

2015-05-12 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

  From: Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2015 12:22 PM
 Subject: Re: Michael Shermer becomes sceptical about scepticism!

  With climate change and cures for cancer you need statistics, because there 
are no such laws in these fields. There is no equation where you can plug-in a 
CO2 concentration and get a correct prediction on global temperature change.

 There's a law where you can plug in atmospheric composition and solar radiance 
and get a correct prediction of the equilibrium temperature.  That's what 
Arrhenius did in 1890.  It's precisely because we do have equations for the 
energy balance of the Earth and how CO2 affects it, that anthropic global 
warming is as solid a fact as evolution and nuclear fission.  If it were *just* 
observations there might be room for doubt as to why temperature has gone up.  
But the mechanism is well known and has been for a century.

How can we know that the greenhouse effect is the only thing to consider when 
dealing with something as complex as the earth and its biosphere? Ok, CO2 in 
the atmosphere reflects back some percentage of the infrared radiation which 
leads to more solar energy being trapped in the system. 
One key thing to understand about the physical properties of CO2 dipolar gas 
molecule is that it absorbs/re-emits  IR frequencies(i.e. is opaque) in an IR 
frequency range that water vapor (e.g. H2O) -- which is the most significant 
global warming gas there is overall is transparent in. This is critically 
important in understanding why CO2 gas has such an impact on climate. It is 
because it closes (partially closes of course) a critical window of 
transparency, that exists in the H2O infrared frequency absorption profile 
through which infrared energy -- of that frequency range -- could otherwise 
escape out from the atmosphere to be re-radiated out into outer space.CO2 does 
not act alone, its effects are very much a result of its partially closing off 
this infrared frequency transparency hole or window through which large amounts 
of infrared energy would have been able to be directly radiated out into the 
cold sink of outer space.-Chris 
But what about the clouds? And the vegetation? Don't these things have a role 
in infraread blocking and sun light refraction/absorption? And many other 
things we might not be thinking about... My point is: who's to say that there 
isn't some negative feedback loop that keeps the temperature stable? It's not 
such a silly hypothesis if you think in terms of self-sampling. The Earth must 
be stable enough to maintain the conditions for uninterrupted biological 
evolution for almost 4 billion years. 

   But if you'd like to actually formulate the alternative hypothesis I might 
do the analysis.

  Ok. My alternative hypothesis is that there is no trend of global temperature 
increase in the period from 1998 to 2010 (as  per Liz's chart's timeframe), 
when compared to temperature fluctuations in the 20th century (as defined by 
the metric in the chart).

 OK.  Here's one way to do it. The ten warmest years in the century from 1910 
to 2010 all occurred in the interval 1998 to 2010, the last 13yrs of the  
century.  Under the null hypothesis, where the hottest year falls is uniform 
random, so the hottest year had probability 13/100 of falling in that interval. 
 The next hottest year then had probability 12/99 of falling in the remaining 
12yr of that interval, given the hottest had already fallen it. The third 
hottest year had probability 11/98 of falling in that interval, given the first 
two had fallen in it, and so on.  So the probability of the 10 hottest years 
falling in that 13yr period is

     P = (13*12*...5*4)/(100*99*...*92*91) = 1.65e-11

 To this we must add the probability of the more extreme events, e.g. the 
probability that the ten hottest years were in the last 12

     P = (12*11*...*5*4*3)/(100*99*...*92*91) = 3.81e-12

 and that they were in the last 11

     P = (11*10*...*5*4*3*2)/(100*99*...*92*91) = 6.35e-13

 and that they were in the last 10

     P = (11*10*...*5*4*3*2)/(100*99*...*92*91) = 5.77e-14

 Summing we get P = 2.10e-11

 A p-value good enough for CERN.  But this isn't a very good analysis for two 
reasons.  First, it's not directly measuring trend, it's the same probability 
you'd get for any 10 of the observed temperatures falling on any  defined 13 
years.  So you have infer that it means a trend from the fact that these are 
the hottest years and they occur in the 13 at the end. Second, it implicitly 
assumes that yearly temperatures are independent, which they aren't.  If 
temperatures always occurred in blocks of ten for example the observed p-value 
would be more like 0.1.  But this shows why you need to consider well defined, 
realistic alternatives.  Your alternative was no trend, but no trend can

Re: Entanglement Between Photons that have Never Coexisted

2015-05-07 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

Very spooky stuff.
Quoting from the paper Nevertheless, photons 1 and 4exhibit quantum 
correlations despite the fact that theynever coexisted.


  From: Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Thursday, May 7, 2015 11:09 AM
 Subject: Entanglement Between Photons that have Never Coexisted
   
In the scenario we present here, measuring the last photonaffects the physical 
description of the first photonin the past, before it has even been measured. 
Thus,the ”spooky action” is steering the system’s past.
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1209.4191v1.pdf
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Re: SciAm predicts strong future for renewable energy

2015-05-01 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

  From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Friday, May 1, 2015 3:13 PM
 Subject: Re: SciAm predicts strong future for renewable energy

I have to say that these 440 persons that die with solar energy is 
compensated by a similar number of skin cancer victims that are saved, since 
the entire surface of the country must be covered with solar panels so there 
is no way to receive sun rays.
I assume you are making an attempt at wit. The recoverable incident solar flux 
that is captured by the US land surface area is many thousands of times greater 
than the total energy consumption of our society. You have made it clear on 
another thread how boring you find basing arguments on facts to be -- so I am 
not holding out much hope that this will have any affect whatsoever on the 
mental processes at work inside your believer brain 
Just pointing out the facts; even though facts, seem to take a back seat in how 
you see the world.

2015-04-30 3:55 GMT+02:00 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com:

On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, Fukushima, Sellafield, Hiroshima, Bikini atoll, 
 Marshall Islands etc. (OK, maybe I shouldn't have been making jokes about 
 this...)

That's fine I like jokes, but  lets see how many people die to produce a 
trillion kilowatt hours of electricity for various energy sources:
For coal 170.000  people die.
For oil 36,000 people die
For biofuel 24,000 people die
For natural gas 4000 people die
For hydroelectric 1400 people die
For solar 440 people die
For wind 140 people die
For nuclear 90 people die.
  John K Clark

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Re: SciAm predicts strong future for renewable energy

2015-05-01 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

  From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Friday, May 1, 2015 5:27 PM
 Subject: Re: SciAm predicts strong future for renewable energy

 On 5/1/2015 2:18 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

  From: John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Friday, May 1, 2015 1:14 PM
 Subject: Re: SciAm predicts strong future for renewable energy

 On Thu, Apr 30, 2015  'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:   
  Quoting directly from the 2005 WHO report on Chernobyl accident  “5 
SEPTEMBER 2005 | GENEVA - A total of up to 4000 people could eventually die of 
radiation exposure from the Chernobyl  nuclear power plant   

  And yet that very same 2005 WHO report on the Chernobyl accident says: 
   As of mid-2005, however, fewer than 50 deaths had been directly 
attributed to radiation from the disaster 
  And yet the same report states that it *expects that 4000 people will die* as 
a result of cancers that were triggered by radionuclides that they came into 
contact with, ingested and/or absorbed through bio-uptake channels into  their 
body tissue.  

  But it's now 2015 not 2005 and 10 years later there is STILL not the 
slightest sign that the prediction of massive deaths from radiation is even 
close to being correct. Zero, zilch nada, goose egg.  In fact I can't think of 
a single prediction about the harm caused by a large scale radiation release 
that was made in the last 70 years that didn't turn out to be ridiculously 
pessimistic.   
  Hundreds of thousands of people die of cancer every year in the areas that 
experienced fallout from Chernobyl; of these millions and millions of cancer 
deaths that have occurred in these regions over the many decades since the 
accident you know that NONE of them were in any way related to or triggered 
by radionuclides released into the environment as a result of that accident? 
  You know this how? 

 The question is how do we know any of them are?  The problem with the 
projected number of deaths from radiation is that they assume a zero threshold 
linear model, i.e. that every level of radiation, no matter how small, produces 
some proportional cancer rate.  However, this is a testable theory.  Cities at 
high altitude experience a higher level of background radiation from cosmic 
rays and solar radiation.  So if the zero threshold theory were true we would 
expect higher cancer rates in cities at high altitude. But it ain't so:

 Low levels of background radiation exist around us continuously. These levels 
increase with increasing land elevation, allowing a comparison of low 
elevations to high elevations in regard to an outcome such as cancer death 
rates. The present study compares archived cancer mortality rates in six low 
versus six high elevation jurisdictions. The study also compares mortality 
rates for all causes, heart disease, and diabetes in low versus high elevation 
jurisdictions in an effort to see if other mortality outcomes are different in 
low versus high elevations. Statistically significant decreases in mortality, 
with very large effect sizes, were observed in high land elevation for three of 
the four outcomes, including cancer. One possible explanation for the decreased 
mortality in high elevation jurisdictions is radiation hormesis. Another 
possible explanation, at least in the case of heart disease mortality, is the 
physiologic responses that accompany higher elevations regarding decreased 
oxygen levels. Since this is an ecological study, no causal inferences can be 
made, particularly when viewpoints on possible effects of low level radiation 
are diametrically opposed. Further research is indicated.

 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3057635/

This and knowledge of cell biology suggests that there is a threshold below 
which external radiation has no effect.
Perhaps, however the model of exposure is very different. Being exposed to a 
given dosage of radiation from an external source is a far different thing than 
the case of having an aerosolized micro or nano scale radionuclide particle 
become lodged say into lung or kidney tissue, or become incorporated through 
bio-uptake into body tissue.Evidence that low doses of externally received 
radiation do not appear to have a measurable effect -- below some low threshold 
-- does not address the very different contamination model that would fit the 
case of internally ingested or absorbed radionuclides.It is an apples to 
oranges comparison. When a radioactive particle becomes lodged inside the body 
(in lung tissue for example) it continues to irradiate any adjacent cells (and 
succeeding generations of cells that are located in close proximity to the 
particle) and continues to irradiate the physically proximate DNA for as long 
as the particle remains lodged into (or incorporated into) the body

Re: SciAm predicts strong future for renewable energy

2015-05-01 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

  From: John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Friday, May 1, 2015 1:14 PM
 Subject: Re: SciAm predicts strong future for renewable energy

On Thu, Apr 30, 2015  'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote: 
  Quoting directly from the 2005 WHO report on Chernobyl accident “5 SEPTEMBER 
  2005 | GENEVA - A total of up to 4000 people could eventually die of 
  radiation exposure from the Chernobyl nuclear power plant

And yet that very same 2005 WHO report on the Chernobyl accident says:
 As of mid-2005, however, fewer than 50 deaths had been directly attributed 
 to radiation from the disaster
And yet the same report states that it *expects that 4000 people will die* as a 
result of cancers that were triggered by radionuclides that they came into 
contact with, ingested and/or absorbed through bio-uptake channels into their 
body tissue. 

But it's now 2015 not 2005 and 10 years later there is STILL not the 
slightest sign that the prediction of massive deaths from radiation is even 
close to being correct. Zero, zilch nada, goose egg.  In fact I can't think 
of a single prediction about the harm caused by a large scale radiation 
release that was made in the last 70 years that didn't turn out to be 
ridiculously pessimistic.  
Hundreds of thousands of people die of cancer every year in the areas that 
experienced fallout from Chernobyl; of these millions and millions of cancer 
deaths that have occurred in these regions over the many decades since the 
accident you know that NONE of them were in any way related to or triggered 
by radionuclides released into the environment as a result of that accident?
You know this how?  And besides, Chernobyl happened 29 years ago so we 
don't need half assed predictions about what the long term results will be, we 
know.
Your cavalier denial that any of the cancers that have occurred in the affected 
regions can possibly have anything to do with Chernobyl is baseless rhetoric. 
The experts in the affected regions, who have access to the statistics, both 
before and after the accident, speak of tens of thousands of cases of cancers 
resulting in the death of the victims. Where is the statistical foundation to 
support your denial? Are you an expert on cancer perchance? On how the disease 
is triggered; how it progresses; what factors make it more or less severe?Or 
are you just producing rhetorical streams of verbiage?
Chris 

  John K Clark

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Re: SciAm predicts strong future for renewable energy

2015-04-30 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

  From: John Mikes jami...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2015 2:27 PM
 Subject: Re: SciAm predicts strong future for renewable energy

How many people die for the conventional energy production? I would not believe 
the statistical figments. Are e.g. all those people included who died from 
diseases upon pollution from burning? Can anybody predict what kind of 
(Fukushima-type) disasters may occur in the foreseeable future and their toll? 
The environmental toll of hydroelectric construction and propagation? Who knows 
the radiation-induced toll if Solar energy steps up with all the new metallic 
products for the cells? The 'serving' industries must be accountable in a 
statistical toll of the product industry! Did the statistics include the 
preparatory processes for the proper energy production, e.g. transportation, 
drilling/mining/fracking, metallurgy and the extensive plastis production(s) 
needed for the energy plant operations? 
(Usually the electric car propaganda articles omit the environmental toll of 
the electricity-production, only the reduced 'oil' need is harangued). 
I find the term electric car propaganda articles rather curious. Do you mean 
to imply, by framing it in this manner, that promotion of the use of electric 
cars, or extolling their benefits is propaganda? Can you provide any actual 
substantive evidence that supports this position of yours?Chris

JM

On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 2:13 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

  From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 6:55 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: SciAm predicts strong future for renewable energy On Wed, Apr 29, 
2015 LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:
  Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, Fukushima, Sellafield, Hiroshima, Bikini 
atoll, Marshall Islands etc. (OK, maybe I shouldn't have been making jokes 
about this...)
 That's fine I like jokes, but  lets see how many people die to produce a 
trillion kilowatt hours of electricity for various energy sources: I like jokes 
as well… we have something in common. I also like honesty. The 90 figure you 
claim for nuclear is willfully ignoring  the full scope of the long term impact 
of that accident. Quoting directly from the 2005 WHO report on Chernobyl 
accident “5 SEPTEMBER 2005 | GENEVA - A total of up to 4000 people could 
eventually die of radiation exposure from the Chernobyl nuclear power plant 
(NPP) accident nearly 20 years ago, an international team of more than 100 
scientists has concluded.” The Russian, Ukrainian, Belarussian Academies of 
science have all published mortality figures are by the far higher than the 
figure of 4000 that the WHO has settled on. For example: data, based on Belarus 
national cancer statistics, predicts approximately 270,000 cancers and 93,000 
fatal cancer cases caused by Chernobyl.Chris For coal 170.000  people die. For 
oil 36,000 people die For biofuel 24,000 people die For natural gas 4000 people 
die For hydroelectric 1400 people die For solar 440 people die For wind 140 
people die For nuclear 90 people die.   John K Clark-- 
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RE: SciAm predicts strong future for renewable energy

2015-04-30 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2015 6:55 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: SciAm predicts strong future for renewable energy

On Wed, Apr 29, 2015 LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, Fukushima, Sellafield, Hiroshima, Bikini atoll, 
 Marshall Islands etc. (OK, maybe I shouldn't have been making jokes about 
 this...)

That's fine I like jokes, but  lets see how many people die to produce a 
trillion kilowatt hours of electricity for various energy sources:

I like jokes as well… we have something in common. I also like honesty. The 90 
figure you claim for nuclear is willfully ignoring  the full scope of the long 
term impact of that accident. 

Quoting directly from the 2005 WHO report on Chernobyl accident “5 SEPTEMBER 
2005 | GENEVA - A total of up to 4000 people could eventually die of radiation 
exposure from the Chernobyl nuclear power plant (NPP) accident nearly 20 years 
ago, an international team of more than 100 scientists has concluded.” The 
Russian, Ukrainian, Belarussian Academies of science have all published 
mortality figures are by the far higher than the figure of 4000 that the WHO 
has settled on. For example: data, based on Belarus national cancer statistics, 
predicts approximately 270,000 cancers and 93,000 fatal cancer cases caused by 
Chernobyl.

Chris

For coal 170.000  people die.

For oil 36,000 people die

For biofuel 24,000 people die

For natural gas 4000 people die

For hydroelectric 1400 people die

For solar 440 people die

For wind 140 people die

For nuclear 90 people die.

  John K Clark

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RE: SciAm predicts strong future for renewable energy

2015-04-29 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR
Sent: Monday, April 27, 2015 7:46 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: SciAm predicts strong future for renewable energy

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strong-future-forecast-for-renewable-energy

As does Business Insider

http://www.businessinsider.com/solar-energy-is-on-the-verge-of-a-global-boom-2015-4?IR=T

Of course nothing doesa global boom quite as well as nuclear :-)

The essential issue being, of course, which kind of global boom nuclear does 
nuclear in the end do?

Do we slip into an era of out of control proliferation of the availability of 
the essential materials. I can think of several unfortunate outcomes arising 
from the proliferation of, especially certain breeder technology, by which I 
intend the plutonium breeders. In so far as breeder reactors go LFTRs seem the 
most benign and inherently walk away safe.

The scale up and scale out of certain energy harvesting technologies such as 
for example PV is impressive and soon the price of the cells themselves will 
come down to levels that make it feasible to incorporate PV materials into all 
manner of solar facing architectural surfaces; including the road surfaces 
themselves. 

The often mentioned storage problem is getting solved. Certain battery types, 
such as flow battery systems can and are being scaled up to utility scale. 
These systems can be made to work with relatively easy to obtain and handle 
materials and since the reagents are stored externally to the *flow* battery, 
which both extracts power in the oxidation phase and using power reduces the 
spent reagents, recharging it.  The total throughput of the system at any given 
moment is determined by the size of the battery array, by that cumulative 
capacity; this flow capacity comprises one dimension of the flow battery 
systems capacity, and is the measure of what the system can deliver at any 
given time. The other dimension -- that of the storage capacity e.g. how much 
energy can the system store – in a flow battery system can scale independently 
and at industrial scale, extending out in external tanks. Such large scale 
utility scale battery nodes will naturally become situated both near the 
producing regions (wind/solar) and within the demand regions (the LA metro area 
for example). One of the less talked about problems our current electric grid 
is facing is capacity limits during peak demand. Being able to shunt power into 
these metro areas during the middle of the night when there is little demand on 
the grid (and hence it has large free capacity) to charge up large utility 
scale battery systems (whether flow battery or other also interesting energy 
storage systems) that can be sited right in the heart of large demand areas and 
be able to take some load off of key high power lines during peak demand.

The evolution of the grid is necessary, not only in order to accommodate the 
flatter more horizontal network of wind/solar + other, but also critically just 
in order to continue to be able to meet peak demand load conditions. Having a 
battery buffer within the urban areas enables time-shifting (at a cost of 
course) of supply and demand – and also as I mentioned time shifting of transit.

The unit price of solar PV is going to continue to go down, soon it will make 
coal look quaintly expensive. All the metrics point towards solar PV being able 
to continue its extraordinary scale out both in terms of annual new capacity, 
but also in unit price. The industry obeys and is driven by many of the same 
“laws” that drove the semi-conductor sector – and it makes sense considering 
how similar they are in fundamental ways. 

The electric grid is increasingly being driven by these other transit related  
hard and difficult to surmount capacity limits, towards solutions that bring 
either the collection of energy and/or the forward deployed dispatchable stored 
capacity into the centers of demand. 

High temperature (meaning liquid nitrogen) super conducting high capacity 
conduits (a trunk/backbone network) would be nice J -- a few small scale 
limited urban loops have actually already been laid down, so this is not a 
completely outlandish idea. Imagine what a polar high capacity (say 200GW) 
super conducting very high voltage line connecting the markets from the 
American eastern seaboard all the way (with perhaps a central line running down 
through Toronto/Chicago/Dallas/Denver and one down the west coast) across 
Alaska; the Bearing straights and connecting into the massive Chinese grid – 
down from Siberia – and also into Japan and ASEAN… across Russia (down to South 
Asia (India/Pakistan/Iran); and then onto the European grid. Almost the entire 
length of this network could be built on land – no oceans to cross. It would 
require a fair amount of infrastructure, upkeep and maintenance (such as 
keeping the supply

RE: Could the Holographic principle apply to our ever so slightly positively curved universe?

2015-04-28 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

The 'holographic principle,' the idea that a universe with gravity can be
described by a quantum field theory in fewer dimensions, has been used for
years as a mathematical tool in strange curved spaces. New results suggest
that the holographic principle also holds in flat spaces. Our own universe
could in fact be two dimensional and only appear three dimensional -- just
like a hologram.

 

The holographic universe hypothesis has been around for a while (since Juan
Maldacena proposed it in 1997); what is interesting in this news, is that it
has been shown to be possible for a universe with flat or positive spacetime
curvatures, as opposed to just the exotic negative spacetime curvature
(anti-de-sitter-space) 

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/04/150427101633.htm

 

 

However, Grumiller has suspected for quite some time that a correspondence
principle could also hold true for our real universe. To test this
hypothesis, gravitational theories have to be constructed, which do not
require exotic anti-de-sitter spaces, but live in a flat space. For three
years, he and his team at TU Wien (Vienna) have been working on that, in
cooperation with the University of Edinburgh, Harvard, IISER Pune, the MIT
and the University of Kyoto. Now Grumiller and colleagues from India and
Japan have published an article in the journal Physical Review Letters,
confirming the validity of the correspondence principle in a flat universe.

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RE: Food for thought

2015-04-21 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Tuesday, April 21, 2015 8:48 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Food for thought

On 19 Apr 2015, at 05:13, John Clark wrote:

On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 5:57 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:

 pls. tellme: what should we call 'information'?

Information is a measure of surprise, and it turns out that surprise is not 
continuous but comes in lumps. And we understand quite a bit about information, 
in fact information is the only thing we do understand.

I agree.

The problem is that the term information is also used, in the everyday 
language, for meaning of some sentences. This is not directly related to 
Shannon or algorithmic information theory, but more on semantics, model theory, 
and other theories of meaning (usually less well know by the general public)..

Also the term has the meaning in the computer science/technology/sector of 
anything that is transmitted, or stored. Often the technology infrastructure is 
unaware of and even uninterested in the “content” of the “information” it moves 
about and stores in vast datacenter repositories. It is just bits; and the 
systems are concerned only with the accurate storage  and retrieval of those 
bits as well as the correct routing and delivery of those bits as desired by 
the processes running within those systems. As far as such systems are 
concerned all the bits being managed, stored, moved, transformed, re-stored, 
cached, and whatever other operations are performed all of this is 
“information”.

Chris

Bruno

  John K Clark  

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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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RE: Interesting speculation: Could an advanced industrial civilization emerge again from a post-collapse earth?

2015-04-21 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Monday, April 20, 2015 7:19 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Interesting speculation: Could an advanced industrial civilization 
emerge again from a post-collapse earth?

On Mon, Apr 20, 2015  LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

 I side with Matt Ridley where the wealthier people are, the more concerned 
 about the environment.they become.

 You'd think they would, if they were rational, but I haven't yet seen any 
 evidence for this. Plenty for the reverse, unfortunately.

Don't be ridiculous, upper middle class kids in western countries form thr core 
of the modern environmental movement. A subsistence farmer with children on the 
verge of starvation doesn't have the luxury of contemplating the beauty of 
recycling or the evils of deforestation. 

 The better the technology, the better easier it is on the land.

 Depends what you mean by better. Artifical fertilisers and so on aren't 
 better for the land, nor is monoculture

Then to hell with the land! You can't keep 7 billion people alive, much less 
happy, without both artificial fertilizer and monoculture. And that is what I 
mean when I say that modern environmentalists are not serious people.  

Cornell University disagrees with that statement and has published 
comprehensive studies that show that yields from well managed organic farms are 
comparable to yileds from intensive chemical input monocrop industrial 
agriculture. You can argue about the facts, but you don’t get to choose what 
the facts are. Quoting directly from the study “Organic farming produces the 
same yields of corn and soybeans as does conventional farming, but uses 30 
percent less energy, less water and no pesticides, a review of a 22-year 
farming trial study concludes.” Link to the study: 
http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/2005/07/organic-farms-produce-same-yields-conventional-farms

You are engaging in polemic. Making blanket statements – that are not supported 
by fact – to then use as a bludgeon to characterize people who disagree with 
you.  I suggest you read the study; produced by one of our nation’s preeminent 
agricultural universities.

 I was given the impression that solar usage is currently increasing 
 exponentially. Have I been misinformed?

Well.. Germany is by far the most aggressive country in perusing solar electric 
power and they did this with huge government subsidies to the solar industry 
payed for by German taxpayers. And what did the German taxpayer get for all 
those billions they payed out? They got 6.5% of the electricity Germany uses 
coming from solar and the highest electric rates in Europe that's what they 
got. 

The installed base of solar PV has been doubling every few years – even as 
folks such as John continuously pronounce it dead. Meanwhile in the real world 
new capacity is being added at a geometrically growing rate; cost per unit is 
also falling again at a geometric rate. In spite of John’s prognostications the 
solarization of the global economy is proceeding at a very rapid pace. John 
keeps mentioning Germany, most of the newest solar PV installation for (2013) 
was added by China and  Japan for example. In 2013 an additional 37,000 MW of 
new solar PV capacity was added to the existing global capacity bringing it to 
136,700 MW of installed capacity (once again 2013 figures)

The per unit cost of price per watt of solar PV capacity has gone from above $5 
per watt in 1995 down to the 2013 price per watt of $0.67; per unit prices 
continue to go down.

I prefer data driven arguments. Polemics may make for more sound and fury, but 
they lack in substance. The available data supports the premise that solar PV 
is on a global growth path and will continue to be on a geometric growth path 
for some time to come.

Chris

  John K Clark

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RE: Where are they?

2015-04-19 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR

 

The Fermi paradox gets sharper.

http://arxiv.org/abs/1504.03418

This makes it even more important that we don’t blow it on our own little 
world. Or perhaps it is evidence that *we are going to blow it* just like every 
other species has on every other star that has developed intelligence. Our 
current race towards global war certainly seems to indicate that the second 
hypothesis has merit.

Why have we failed to detect any signs of civilization outside of our own 
earth? 

On the one hand we have only looked at a very few stars (for short periods of 
time), but surveys such as this seem to indicate either that civilization 
either does not go down the road of maximum energy use within its host galaxy; 
hence no signature, or that no such civilization exists (though they did 
suggest a few galaxies worth further study)

Perhaps at some level of intelligence  growth in energy consumption no longer 
appeals. Why assume that a super advanced civilization would go down the route  
of creating Dyson spheres around every star in its galaxy, which is what the 
study was surveying for. Perhaps at some level of intelligence other things 
become more important than consuming more and more energy to effect the 
physical world through the application of energy. I have a few observations 
about the study: it  did not eliminate civilizations that transformed under 50% 
of the stars in their galaxy into dyson spheres. I am thinking that a galactic 
scale civilization might refrain from scaling out to complete Dysonization of 
its galaxy for esthetic reasons for example. If say they had transformed the 
most promising 10% of the stars in a galaxy into dyson spheres that would still 
be a huge number of such mega-energy-producing engines, generating 
unconceivable amounts of power. Why would any civilization need more than ay 20 
billion Dyson sphere in its domain? That would be 10% in a galaxy with 200 
billion stars in it.

Even a single dyson sphere is a mind boggling amount of energy. 20 billionn 
such spheres prinkled around the galaxy is 20 billion times more mind boggling. 
I think it is fair to question the assumption that a civilization would even 
want to blink out every star in the sky in order to maximize the usable energy 
yield from those suns.

Purely riffing on a speculative vein here… 

Chris

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RE: Interesting speculation: Could an advanced industrial civilization emerge again from a post-collapse earth?

2015-04-19 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2015 10:35 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Interesting speculation: Could an advanced industrial civilization 
emerge again from a post-collapse earth?

On Sat, Apr 18, 2015  'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

 the Brazilian steel industry (the 9nth largest ranked producer in the world) 
 utilizes sustainably produced (for the most part) charcoal to produce pig 
 iron from iron ore.

It's sustainable only if Brazil has an infinite supply of rainforest it can cut 
down and convert into charcoal. Deforestation is not the only problem, between 
2000 and 2007 the amount of CO2 produced by Brazilian steel doubled even though 
they used less coal; not surprising given that a ton of steel produced by 
charcoal from native forests produces 9 times as much CO2 as steel made from 
coal.

2/3rds of the charcoal is apparently sourced from renewable plantations. 
Admittedly the 1/3 that is sourced by cutting down virgin rainforest is *NOT* 
sustainable and produces a net carbon footprint. However the 2/3rds of the 
charcoal that is made from rapid growing plantation trees is more sustainable 
and is net carbon neutral – the next crop of trees getting grown is removing 
CO2 from the atmosphere that is released into the atmosphere by burning the 
charcoal.

Chris

http://www.nature.com/nclimate/journal/v5/n4/full/nclimate2515.html 

By the way, most of the moors in Britain are not natural features but the 
result of deforestation by humans thousands of years ago, largely so they could 
convert the trees that once abundantly grew there into charcoal which they used 
to smelt tin to make bronze. By the early 18th century when iron smelting 
became very popular most of the trees were already gone so the ironmakers in 
Britain switched from charcoal to coal; in the USA there were still plenty of 
trees so the switchover to coal took much longer.  

 This article argues that it would be possible for human civilization to 
 reboot, after a global cataclysmic collapse,

Unless the catastrophe resulted in human extinction then of course civilization 
would reboot, and given that information about advanced industrial processes 
would still exist it would take a lot less time to get back to the present 
level of civilization than it did to get there the first time.  

 even in the resource depleted environment that would remain.

Civilization could never reboot if our present effete environmentalists were 
still calling the shots, but I don't think they would be. I hypothesize that in 
a post collapse world environmentalists would be far more logical than they are 
today, particularly about nuclear energy, because a softheaded tree hugger 
philosophy, so common in advanced Western countries, can only thrive in a 
population that has never been hungry. 

  John K Clark

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RE: Food for thought

2015-04-19 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona 
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2015 12:24 AM
To: everything-list
Subject: Re: Food for thought

Current global growth estimates are that every two days, the world is now 
creating as much new digital information as all the data ever created from the 
dawn of humans through the current century. It has been estimated that by 2020, 
the size of the world’s digital universe will be close to 44 trillion gigabytes

Wow!

It sems that one image is worth a thousands Shakespeare books...

Moreover, most of what happens to be information is really disinformation, not 
only noise. Most of the output of he media is not only garbage, but interested 
manipulation,  conscious or unconscious.

Most information volume is not even directly created by humans. Vast amounts of 
information are being machine generated by algorithmic processes. On one level 
information is anything that can be stored, transmitted, transformed or 
otherwise processed. It does not matter at this level whether it is good 
information or useless or even harmful information. These are values we assign 
to it and these arise out of our interaction with information. Information 
itself is without any sense of value; it just is. Treating it in this manner as 
just the series of ones and zeroes that describe some particular digital 
pattern is useful in terms of handling it, compressing it and otherwise doing 
things with it. 

At some point however the external contextual information (context is also 
itself information) needs to come into play in order to do anything useful with 
it or make any statements about its value – or lack of value.

Chris

information is anything that reduces the entropy of the receiver. The more 
information, the less the entropy. this reduction of entropy is due to a 
reduction of uncertainty. that reduction of uncertainty means that with this 
information the receiver can plan the future more accurately because his 
knowledge of reality is better. His internal agitation is reduced, danger of 
being harm is reduced.  I may sweat less, my stress is reduced, my inmune 
system will work again and will fight infections. I will take time to learn, I 
will lie less, drink less alcohol and will spend less time wandering in the 
nigh doing risky things to perpetuate my genes. I will invest my money instead 
of consuming it. 

That stabilization happens because I know what to do to survive at a longer 
timespan so I can do it better. I can help others and others can help myself or 
my children by doing efforts that produce results only after years, decades of 
even after we passed away

So what is information depends on the receiver. if I receive a document in 
chinese that information is 0 for me. If then I receive a rare and excelent 
manual on Chinese and I take time to learn chinese and the previous message is 
a document that would help me to be millionaire then the information of the 
later message is huge, because the first message was a  part of my reality and 
under my circumstances I used that information.

Then there are negative information: the one that increase the entropy of the 
receiver. it simply can waste my time ot may produce erroneous decissions, so 
the sender can do some kind of depredation on me.

2015-04-18 19:24 GMT+02:00 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com:

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Telmo Menezes
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2015 12:22 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Food for thought

On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 6:36 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

On 4/17/2015 11:56 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

Current global growth estimates are that every two days, the world is now 
creating as much new digital information as all the data ever created from the 
dawn of humans through the current century. It has been estimated that by 2020, 
the size of the world’s digital universe will be close to 44 trillion gigabytes

If I take a picture with my smartphone is that counted as creating 
information?

I suspect it is, but we must remember that not everything that can be counted 
counts.

What about the masterpiece that nobody ever sees, hears or reads? I am sure 
many great works of thought have been utterly lost and many more have never 
been experienced outside of the brains of their creators. Perhaps some 
fundamental theoretical work is even now languishing in utter obscurity. Is 
this “creating information” or does “creating information” depend on it 
becoming consumed (and entangled with other streams of information)?

Chris

Telmo.

Brent

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RE: Food for thought

2015-04-19 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

 is 
the interleaved interplay of what we are looking at and  what our minds are 
recalling. Information rarely exists without being embedded in a context.

Chris

 

Telmo.

 

JM

 

On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 1:24 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Telmo Menezes
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2015 12:22 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Food for thought

 

 

 

On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 6:36 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

On 4/17/2015 11:56 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

 

Current global growth estimates are that every two days, the world is now 
creating as much new digital information as all the data ever created from the 
dawn of humans through the current century. It has been estimated that by 2020, 
the size of the world’s digital universe will be close to 44 trillion gigabytes


If I take a picture with my smartphone is that counted as creating 
information?

 

I suspect it is, but we must remember that not everything that can be counted 
counts.

 

What about the masterpiece that nobody ever sees, hears or reads? I am sure 
many great works of thought have been utterly lost and many more have never 
been experienced outside of the brains of their creators. Perhaps some 
fundamental theoretical work is even now languishing in utter obscurity. Is 
this “creating information” or does “creating information” depend on it 
becoming consumed (and entangled with other streams of information)?

 

Chris

 

Telmo.

 


Brent

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RE: Food for thought

2015-04-19 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Sunday, April 19, 2015 10:46 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Food for thought

On Sun, Apr 19, 2015 at 3:23 AM, Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.com wrote:

 It sems that one image is worth a thousands Shakespeare books.

Mathematics can tell you how much information something has, but it can't tell 
you how important that information is because that is a function of individual 
personal taste and neither mathematics nor science has anything to say about 
that.

Agreed, and what I was pointing out in a response I just sent out. We can 
analyze the information potential contained within some bit stream in a 
mathematical sense, but without any knowledge of the context it is impossible 
to quantify the “value” contained in the stream.

Chris

  John K Clark

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RE: Food for thought

2015-04-19 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Telmo Menezes
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2015 11:30 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Food for thought

Current global growth estimates are that every two days, the world is now 
creating as much new digital information as all the data ever created from the 
dawn of humans through the current century. It has been estimated that by 2020, 
the size of the world’s digital universe will be close to 44 trillion gigabytes

If I take a picture with my smartphone is that counted as creating 
information?

I suspect it is, but we must remember that not everything that can be counted 
counts.

What about the masterpiece that nobody ever sees, hears or reads? I am sure 
many great works of thought have been utterly lost and many more have never 
been experienced outside of the brains of their creators. Perhaps some 
fundamental theoretical work is even now languishing in utter obscurity. Is 
this “creating information” or does “creating information” depend on it 
becoming consumed (and entangled with other streams of information)?

I find the term create information a bit nonsensical, because the only way to 
not do it is by being dead. Otherwise, everything you can conceivably do 
creates information. It's almost a synonym for existing, no?

On one level anything that is stored becomes information (even though – I think 
we all agree – that by far the greatest portion of this massive stream of 
“information” being generated is of small consequence. If it can be gathered, 
stored, transmitted, transformed then on one level it qualifies as information 
(most information is not useful information) 

At a sociological level, perhaps what is more important is a more Darwinian 
approach: what information gets copied and how much? The 44 trillion gigabytes 
digital universe cited above is a highly redundant repository, where such 
processes take place. Most of it, of course, is photos of cats, trivial 
personal messages about meeting for lunch and things like that. The shape of 
the Eiffel Tower is very successful, and gets copied daily by hordes of 
tourists photographing it.

Agreed, by far most of the information being generated is unoriginal by most 
measures. An increasing portion of the information stream is not even human 
generated. For example the continuous stream of current geo-location data being 
slurped up by various corporations such as Facebook, Google, Microsoft, etc. as 
well as by local, state, and federal police and security agencies. The reams of 
data being generated by rfid chips embedded in products as they travel through 
distribution channels and warehouses, floor racks in department stores. This 
space is exploding; it is generally called the internet of things, and it 
includes all the things that have and are rapidly becoming rfid identified (and 
time/geo-located) 

The information streams also include all of the machine (algorithmically 
generated) metadata and associative data that becomes overlaid over the 
original data streams, providing additional context to it and graphing it into 
many various orthogonal association networks.

I think it's hard to say if this information storage explosion is good or bad 
for the fate of obscure masterpieces. On one hand, it facilitates their spread 
once they attain some success. On the other hand, it makes it hard for the 
initial success to happen, because there is so much other stuff.

I tend to think it is not so good for the obscure masterpiece. In vast 
connected networks of interacting nodes a network effect begins to shape a 
topology and well connected nodes tend to accumulate more connections and this 
promotes a positive feedback mechanism. The obscure unconnected node is not 
favored by this process. The network effect operates in many systems; for 
example planetary formation from the circulating whirling disks of small grains 
of dust and gases circling a newly forming star system. The nodes (in this vast 
circling network of dust grain nodes) that randomly clump into larger masses 
will accumulate more nodes of dust at a far higher rate than the lone 
unconnected grain of dust. The network effect is an important factor to 
consider.

Chris

Telmo.

Chris

Telmo.

Brent

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RE: Food for thought

2015-04-18 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Telmo Menezes
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2015 12:22 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Food for thought

On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 6:36 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote:

On 4/17/2015 11:56 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

Current global growth estimates are that every two days, the world is now 
creating as much new digital information as all the data ever created from the 
dawn of humans through the current century. It has been estimated that by 2020, 
the size of the world’s digital universe will be close to 44 trillion gigabytes

If I take a picture with my smartphone is that counted as creating 
information?

I suspect it is, but we must remember that not everything that can be counted 
counts.

What about the masterpiece that nobody ever sees, hears or reads? I am sure 
many great works of thought have been utterly lost and many more have never 
been experienced outside of the brains of their creators. Perhaps some 
fundamental theoretical work is even now languishing in utter obscurity. Is 
this “creating information” or does “creating information” depend on it 
becoming consumed (and entangled with other streams of information)?

Chris

Telmo.

Brent

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RE: Interesting speculation: Could an advanced industrial civilization emerge again from a post-collapse earth?

2015-04-18 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

This may be of interest to some on this list: 

This piece speculates on how industrial civilization could hypothetically
reboot on earth, in a post-apocalyptic resource depleted planet without
readily available sources of stored fossil energy. One interesting factoid I
gleaned from reading it (that I was utterly unaware of) is how the Brazilian
steel industry (the 9nth largest ranked producer in the world) utilizes
sustainably produced (for the most part) charcoal to produce pig iron from
iron ore. This article argues that it would be possible for human
civilization to reboot, after a global cataclysmic collapse, even in the
resource depleted environment that would remain.

 

 

http://aeon.co/magazine/technology/could-we-reboot-civilisation-without-foss
il-fuels/?fb_ref=Default

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Re: Interesting speculation: Could an advanced industrial civilization emerge again from a post-collapse earth?

2015-04-18 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List


  From: John Mikes jami...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2015 2:49 PM
 Subject: Re: Interesting speculation: Could an advanced industrial 
civilization emerge again from a post-collapse earth?
   
Who said that our present 'civilization'(?) is a FIRST one? We did not 
dicover (leading) precursors, true, but such negative is no positive. In our 
scientifically based views our civilization evolved from scratch.
I would argue that the existence of the fossil energy deposits that our 
industrial civilization, discovered and has exploited (the easy 50% already 
burned) is powerful positive evidence that our industrial civilization is the 
first industrial civilization on this planet since the time these great carbon 
deposits were first laid down... so from the Carbonaceous era. Given the fossil 
evidence we have for the kind of life forms that seemed to prevail on the 
planet at and befor ethe Carbonaceous era I would argue that it is a pretty 
solid proposition to maintain that our civilization is this planet's first 
large scale industrial civilization. 
How did e.g. the insect societies evolve? Did termites etc. have the 
technology to calculte for their habitat-building? 
Termites don't smelt steel!
Did they get streamlined into simplicity and we notivced them only as such, 
after OUR (mammal-based) civilization evolved (after the demise of the 
dinosaur disaster)?  
The elegance of evolution at work! Over millions of years of trial and error 
the best, the simplest  most efficient designs (processes) prevail.
We konw precious little about eons before our milliseconds of cosmic 
existence. Nor do we have an hint of memories that triggered our advancement 
- in most cases comfortably assigned to GOD-s will. 
Sure on many levels I agree; however we can make pretty substantive evidence 
based statements about the existence of the fossil energy deposits that gave 
rise to industrial civilization, and draw conclusions from the the age of these 
deposits. If an industrial civilization existed on this planet say thirty 
million years ago, can you explain how these great fossil deposits were never 
touched by this preceding civilization? Logically they would have been 
exploited. While we still have large gaps in the hominid fossil record we do 
have quite a bit and can in fact trace the evolution of our species; of our 
brains; of our use of fire  tools; of our association with dogs and all manner 
of aspects of how even hominids that existed hundreds of thousands of years ago 
lived. We know for example that the hominid species living in China some three 
hundred thousand years ago wore tanned sown leather garments (quite fashionable 
and comfortable, and of course sophisticated behavior) Modern man did not arise 
in a vacuum and this is pretty well accepted.  We have pushed back the tie 
boundaries for important human behavior -- such as the controlled use of fire 
-- to a time far before homo sapiens first walked the rift valley region of 
Africa
I restrain myself from letting my fantasy fly for civilizations underwater 
etc. 
If you notice I am limiting my hypothesis to cover industrial civilization, 
which is only one of many possible variants of civilization. I would not 
exclude the existence of other evolved cultures, existing even now -- for 
example among some species of toothed whales or elephants. But though I do not 
exclude the possibility that these species may have rich and evolved cultures, 
or that there may even exist exotic webs of life we do not know about, at great 
depth below the sea. However none of these cultures is an industrial 
civilization; and the only evidence that I see for such a civilization is from 
our own. How else to explain the great resource bounties that covered our earth 
and provided the critical heat energy to get our industrial civilization going.
Chris
JM



On Sat, Apr 18, 2015 at 2:27 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

This may be of interest to some on this list: This piece speculates on how 
industrial civilization could hypothetically reboot on earth, in a 
post-apocalyptic resource depleted planet without readily available sources of 
stored fossil energy. One interesting factoid I gleaned from reading it (that I 
was utterly unaware of) is how the Brazilian steel industry (the 9nth largest 
ranked producer in the world) utilizes sustainably produced (for the most part) 
charcoal to produce pig iron from iron ore. This article argues that it would 
be possible for human civilization to reboot, after a global cataclysmic 
collapse, even in the resource depleted environment that would remain.  
http://aeon.co/magazine/technology/could-we-reboot-civilisation-without-fossil-fuels/?fb_ref=Default--
 
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Food for thought

2015-04-17 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List


Current global growth estimates are that every two days, the world is now 
creating as muchnew digital information as all the data ever created from the 
dawn of humans through the currentcentury. It has been estimated that by 2020, 
the size of the world’s digital universe will be close to 44trillion gigabytes

Current estimates are that onlyaround 7 percent of the world’s devices are 
connected and communicating today. The amount of datathat these 7 percent of 
connected devices generate is estimated to represent only 2 percent of 
theworld’s total data universe today. Current projections are for this number 
to grow to about 10 percentof the world’s data by the year 2020.

This explosion of the internet of things is very rapidly happening as we speak 
-- and it is happening, on top of the already exploding volumes of data getting 
generated as a result of human activity -- and as the internet of things very 
rapidly growsm all of these connected, chatting, devices will begin creating 
huge new volumes of actionable real time data flowing on top of the existing 
mushrooming volumes resulting from human interactions -- and also interacting 
with the hman driven data streams in many interesting and perhaps unforeseen 
ways.

The growth rates in information volumes are staggering really.

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RE: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

2015-04-13 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Telmo Menezes
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2015 7:49 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Michael Graziano's theory of consciousness

On Mon, Apr 13, 2015 at 2:55 PM, Bruce Kellett bhkell...@optusnet.com.au 
wrote:

Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 13 Apr 2015, at 05:31, Bruce Kellett wrote:

The philosophical literature is full of extended discussions on this, and it is 
widely understood that ideas such as brain transplants and duplicating machines 
play merry havoc with our intuitive notions of personal identity.

Yes, it simply vanish. Personal identity is an illusion, but the FPI is not, 
and that result is not used in the reversal, so I prefer to let is for other 
threads and topics.

That seems like a flat contradiction. Personal identity is an illusion but 
First Person Indeterminacy is not. You can't have first person anything if you 
do not have a notion of personal identity.

I am actually very suspicious of any argument which begins, or ends, with X is 
an illusion. Be X consciousness, personal identity, free will, space, time, or 
anything else. The theory is supposed to explain our experience of these 
things. Writing them off as illusions is not an explanation.

Only if the theory fails to explain how the illusion arises. For example, there 
was a persistent illusion that the universe revolves around the earth. 
Astronomy eventually showed that not to be the case, also explaining why it 
looks that way.

Telmo – I agree with you. An argument for something being an illusion needs to 
show how the illusion emerges out of the underlying reality; it needs to 
demonstrate the mechanisms that drive the illusion and how they work to 
transform the actual real events/experiences/etc. into whatever is subsequently 
perceived as experienced or real. Simply saying that something is an illusion 
is not adequate; I agree with that. And I think your example of the 
Aristotelian earth centric universe, is a good one. The mechanism by which it 
produced the illusion was demonstrated in that case.

Chris

Telmo.

Bruce

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re: interview with climatologist: Paul Beckwith - on acceleratin gpace of climate change

2015-04-11 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

Within the last 6 months, the climate has been changing so rapidly that a
number of climate scientists have become increasingly concerned. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embeddedv=-6zRJkWi_xA
v=-6zRJkWi_xA

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RE: America: Bankrupt Living on Borrowed Time

2015-04-08 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of colin hales
Sent: Wednesday, April 08, 2015 4:54 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: America: Bankrupt  Living on Borrowed Time

We can change things.

Everything these predatory self-interested oligarchs have (and their soul-less, 
ethics-less zombie proxy humans ... corporations) only exists because we 
believe it exists. The zombie apocalypse is happening as we speak! And we allow 
it because we believe in zombies.

This 'bankruptcy' is fictional. It's a product of a system of 
predated-to-oblivion accounting that is in it's endgame.

We can believe it away and believe its replacement/upgrade if we want. 

We are inside the problem. We are the problem.

I'm not sure I'll live to see it but change must happen or we're all just 
slaves forever measured by key performance indicators and the other dooms 
called  'shareholder value'. 

This whole mess is all merely psychology. The psychology is that of an utterly 
capricious narcissist. Very very unwell. And we let it happen. We reward the 
behaviour.

Nicely expressed! 

When the only value is profit; pillage  rape is the guaranteed outcome. 
Personally I don’t even fundamentally oppose profit – when it is constrained 
within a larger encompassing system of values. In our time it has become 
unhinged and is untampered by any other countervailing, supervening values; we 
live in the era of “greed is good”.

It is not all that surprising therefore that we are getting the kind of world, 
which as a result, is good for greed.

Chris 

  _  

From: spudboy100 via Everything List mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Sent: ‎9/‎04/‎2015 8:41 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: America: Bankrupt  Living on Borrowed Time

It's already been the truth, but now with Silicon Valley billionaires and hedge 
funders, it's become a lot worse. How do we survive?

-Original Message-
From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, Apr 8, 2015 5:30 pm
Subject: Re: America: Bankrupt  Living on Borrowed Time

Wow good cartoon - near the knuckle. Nice to see Mr Monopoly ... and the names 
on the seats aren't exactly necessary... I must save a copy of that!  

On 8 April 2015 at 19:52, Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com wrote: 

Thanks Brent! 

On Wed, Apr 8, 2015 at 2:20 AM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: 

For Telmo. 

Brent 

 Forwarded Message  

Thomas Jefferson is credited with the following sage advice,  “The central bank 
is an institution of the most deadly hostility existing against the Principles 
and form of our Constitution. I am an Enemy to all banks discounting bills or 
notes for anything but Coin. If the American People allow private banks to 
control the issuance of their currency, first by inflation and then by 
deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will 
deprive the People of all their Property until their Children will wake up 
homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.”  And so it seems sometimes 
the answer is right in front of us all along and we just fail to see it. 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-04-07/america-bankrupt-and-borrowed-time 

America-wings…. 

Americanwings cartoon.jpg

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RE: Histones (proteins that form the scaffolding around which DNA wraps itself may also themselves be involved in heredity processes

2015-04-07 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of LizR
Sent: Monday, April 06, 2015 9:19 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Histones (proteins that form the scaffolding around which DNA 
wraps itself may also themselves be involved in heredity processes

 

Anything in the egg cell, or donated at any point during gestation from the 
mother (in mammals, at least) can be passed on, I assume. (What about 
mitochondria?)

 

Mitochondria comes from mom; it is exclusively matrilineal

 

 

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Re: Histones (proteins that form the scaffolding around which DNA wraps itself may also themselves be involved in heredity processes

2015-04-07 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

  From: John Mikes jami...@gmail.com
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2015 2:03 PM
 Subject: Re: Histones (proteins that form the scaffolding around which DNA 
wraps itself may also themselves be involved in heredity processes

Apologies: MITOCHONDRIUM  -   I S  -   and mitochondria -are.   JM

On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 4:14 PM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote:

Liz:passed on - do you mean survives AS IS? I think whatever is added 
incubates into the complexity of the new creature into fitting, not 'as was' in 
the mother. And- I think mitochondria IS a cell within the larger one in 
symbiotic life. Chris is most likely right:  FROM THE MOTHER only. And it is 
adjusted into the new complexity as well. 
This is the reason why mitochondria are used as a yardstick to measure the 
natural rate of mutation (e.g. the genetic drift). Because all animals 
exclusively get their own mitochondria from their mother -- e.g. NOT by sexual 
reproduction, which effectively is a shuffling of the genetic heritage of both 
portions of both parents DNA. The mitochondria DNA instead only ever comes from 
the maternal line and for this reason it makes a good genetic clock. A clock 
that can be used to estimate how old a species is, or that can tell a story of 
how a species almost went extinct some 70,000 years ago -- as happened to our 
own species. The reason e know this is by studying the genetic diversity of 
human mitochondrial DNA.Interestingly the Y chromosome, which all males of a 
species carry and exclusively get from the paternal side, can also function as 
a yardstick, again because it is unaffected by sexual reproduction. If an 
offspring has the Y chromosome (e.g. is a male) it got it from its father and 
never ever got it from its mother. For all our other chromosomes what we get is 
the sexually reshuffled recombined deck of cards, some of which came from each 
parent.Does this make any sense?Chris
JM
On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 12:18 AM, LizR lizj...@gmail.com wrote:

Anything in the egg cell, or donated at any point during gestation from the 
mother (in mammals, at least) can be passed on, I assume. (What about 
mitochondria?)

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RE: DNA Wormholes can cause cancer (what!?)

2015-04-07 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] 

Subject: Re: DNA Wormholes can cause cancer (what!?)

Chris,

Hi.  It sounds like you might be in computing since you mentioned some 
terms like reposited (I've never heard of that in bio!)?  

Yeah I write software for a living… and reposited is a pretty common jargon 
(that implicitly abstracts the particular details of whatever repository behind 
the notion of a repository interface).

If so, you are very well educated in biology.  Nice job!  Your knowledge of the 
complexity of a cell and of things moving around via motor proteins and the 
cytoskeleton as opposed to diffusion only, etc. are real impressive.  Many of 
the computer and engineering guys I know seem to be allergic to biology 
knowledge.  Although, I admit I know almost nothing about computing either, 
except for stuff from a few simple classes in Pascal, Fortran, etc. a long, 
long time ago.

I have long been fascinated with biology – being a biological entity myself J 

I'd never heard of that  model where they ran it backwards to find the 
genesis of life, but it sounds pretty neat.  I think it's certainly possible 
that life started in a far away stellar nursery and then came to Earth on a 
comet or something.  Although, I kind of liked that Star Trek (The Next Gen.) 
episode where some ancient race of bald people seeded lots of different oceans 
with their DNA and put a code in their that, once we decipher it, will play a 
video of the bald people talking to us.  I thought that was one of their best 
episodes.  But, the final question is still there.  How did the life originate 
where ever it came from?  I can't rule out anything, but I bet they'll be able 
to someday figure out a chemical mechanism for things to start replicating 
themselves.

I think that we are closing in on this and that within a decade or two – if we 
don’t blow ourselves up beforehand – we will be able to do genesis in the lab. 
Already Craig Venter’s group is getting close to creating synthetic life – 
albeit within an existing de-natured cell that’s had its own DNA removed. See: 
http://www.ted.com/talks/craig_venter_is_on_the_verge_of_creating_synthetic_life?language=en

Just read an article today shown that micro-strands of DNA can self-assemble in 
liquid crystals. Quoting from the article: “The new research demonstrates that 
the spontaneous self-assembly of DNA fragments just a few nanometers in length 
into ordered liquid crystal phases has the ability to drive the formation of 
chemical bonds that connect together short DNA chains to form long ones, 
without the aid of biological mechanisms. Liquid crystals are a form of matter 
that has properties between those of conventional liquids and those of a solid 
crystal—a liquid crystal may flow like a liquid, for example, but its molecules 
may be oriented more like a crystal.

Our observations are suggestive of what may have happened on the early Earth 
when the first DNA-like  http://phys.org/tags/molecular+fragments/ molecular 
fragments appeared, said Clark.

 http://phys.org/news/2015-04-hints-spontaneous-primordial-dna.html#jCp 
http://phys.org/news/2015-04-hints-spontaneous-primordial-dna.html#jCp

One big advantage that computing and engineering have over drug discovery 
is that the scientist can design a system he or she wants to make when it's 
code or a chip or something.  But, because everything is so wet, bouncing 
around, cross-reacting and squishy in bio, it's hard to design things to work 
just the way you want them.  Cells are always mutating, proteins are always 
moving around and chemicals are always cross-reacting.  I think we'll 
eventually need to combine small mol. drugs and biological drugs with 
nanotechnological devices and tiny molecular computers to cure diseases.  

But that is also what makes it so interesting and also unfathomable at times. J

Chris

I checked out that article on microbes being passed from generation to 
generation.  It was very interesting; although, it kind of sounded like it was 
passed via an environmental route because the next generation of animals lived 
in the same environment as the previous generation, and the microbes are 
probably all over the environment in the form of feces, shed fur, surfaces, 
animals touching each other, etc.  I'd have to read more about it, but it 
sounded like not quite a direct mechanism of transmission.

One more pontification, and I promise I'll stop, but I think some of the 
physics guys could learn from biochemists because biochemists are always 
looking for mechanisms of action for how things work.  But, it seems like the 
physicists are more content to say something works and we have the math to 
describe it.  For instance, I don't think they really know even why positive 
and negative charges attract or two positive charges repel, do they?  I know 
there are fields of force, and

RE: DNA Wormholes can cause cancer (what!?)

2015-04-06 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

, and then sequence the 
crosslinked areas to identify the crosslinked segments of DNA.  But, I admit 
calling this a wormhole is kind of just good marketing.  I guess the everything 
list is kind of like a wormhole that brings together distant people so they can 
talk about everything! :-)

 

Also, on the epigenetic inheritance thing via histones, it's also good that 
new studies are proving this stuff, but epigenetic changes (changes in gene 
expression caused by things other than changes to the DNA sequence) that can be 
inherited have also been known for 10 years or so.  So far, what they know are 
that these changes are caused by adding or removing methyl groups to the DNA 
bases or methyl and acetyl groups to the histones.  That affects how the genes 
are expressed.  These changes can be affected by the environment and your own 
activities (like exercise).   So, your descendants may thank you for exercising 
and eating right!

 

The only reason I know some stuff about this is that I have kind of a weird 
job where I read biochem. articles all day and put the new stuff into a 
database. 

 

See you!

 

Roger 

 

 




On Saturday, April 4, 2015 at 3:08:19 PM UTC-4, cdemorsella wrote:



-Original Message- 
From: everyth...@googlegroups.com [mailto:everyth...@googlegroups.com] On 
Behalf Of Russell Standish 
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 1:44 PM 
To: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
Subject: Re: DNA Wormholes can cause cancer (what!?) 

Of course, this is what Australia's John Mattick has been saying for decades (I 
heard him talk on this nearly 15 years ago, for instance, and he'd been railing 
at the establishment sometime before that). 

 But wormholes? Really? Someone in marketing has been given far too liberal 
 a rein. 

They're always on the hunt for that catchy title aren't they; I find them 
amusing :)   
Still, in seriousness, it's an interesting idea: that previously overlooked, 
non-local effects,  naturally operating within an organisms DNA may be playing 
a more fundamental role in life than previously believed (or even considered to 
be occurring at all) 
Chris 

Cheers 


On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 05:26:16PM +, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything 
List wrote: 
 [Have been very busy on a new software project and have not had time 
 to follow and participate on this list... such an active list :). ] 
 Came across this article and found it interesting also from an 
 information science point of view -- taking the perspective of DNA 
 being a fairly dynamic information repository. It seems like the 
 butterfly effect is operating in DNA... a small difference one place 
 can result in effects being triggered in very distant DNA locations... 
 or as the researchers said... kind of like a wormhole.-Chris 
 
 Cancer risk linked to DNA ‘wormholes’ 
 
 February 25, 2015 
 Single-letter genetic variations within parts of the genome once dismissed as 
 “junk DNA” can increase cancer risk through remote effects on far-off genes, 
 new research by scientists at The Institute of Cancer Research, London 
 shows.The researchers found that DNA sequences within “gene deserts” — so 
 called because they are completely devoid of genes — can regulate gene 
 activity elsewhere by forming DNA loops across relatively large distances.The 
 study helps solve a mystery about how genetic variations in parts of the 
 genome that don’t appear to be doing very much can increase cancer risk.Their 
 study, published in Nature Communications, also has implications for the 
 study of other complex genetic diseases.The researchers developed a technique 
 called Capture Hi-C to investigate long-range physical interactions between 
 stretches of DNA – allowing them to look at how specific areas of chromosomes 
 interact physically in more detail.The researchers assessed 14 regions of DNA 
 that contain single-letter variations previously linked to bowel cancer risk. 
 They detected significant long-range interactions for all 14 regions, 
 confirming their role in gene regulation.“Our new technique shows that 
 genetic variations are able to increase cancer risk through long-range 
 looping interactions with cancer-causing genes elsewhere in the genome,” 
 study leader Professor Richard Houlston, Professor of Molecular and 
 Population Genetics at The Institute of Cancer Research, London said.“It is 
 sometimes described as analogous to a wormhole, where distortions in space 
 and time could in theory bring together distant parts of the universe.”The 
 research was funded by the EU, Cancer Research UK, Leukaemia  Lymphoma 
 Research, and The Institute of Cancer Research (ICR). 
 
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RE: Fast moves for nuclear development in Siberia

2015-04-05 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

-Original Message-
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2015 1:40 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Fast moves for nuclear development in Siberia

On 4/5/2015 11:09 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:
 Actually compared with the Uranium fuel cycle the Thorium fuel cycle 
 is neutron poor, a LFTR produces enough neutrons to burn up 100% of 
 the Thorium but there isn't a lot of wiggle room, however this is an 
 advantage not a disadvantage. If somebody tried to secretly siphon off 
 some of the U233 produced in a reactor to make a bomb the reactor 
 would simply stop and it would be hard to keep that secret, also fewer 
 neutrons means less damage to the equipment, you already don't have to 
 worry about the most important maintenance problem that a conventional 
 reactor has, cracks in the solid fuel rods caused by neutrons, because a LFTR 
 has no solid fuel rods, it's fuel is a liquid and you can't crack a liquid.

The reason LFTRs have been touted as proliferation resistant is that the U233 
is mixed with U232 which makes its use in a weapons almost impossible.  But the 
proliferation problem for a LFTR is that Proactinium can be chemically remove 
from the cycle, which prevents the accumulation of U232.  Then the U233 can be 
siphoned off and used.  A 2GW LFTR is expected to produce about 60Kg of excess 
U233 per year; enough for 7 to 8 nuclear weapons.  So the proliferation 
resistance is exaggerated.

I agree, and have mentioned this in previous threads on this. LFTRs are not 
proliferation proof, when the Proactinium is chemically removed out of the 
circulating molten salt fluid, before it becomes transmuted by an extra neutron 
absorption into the isotope that yields U-232 (it's  highly radioactive decay 
product) Segregating out the Proactinium and letting it decay to the useful 
U-233 is also important for optimal reactor functioning and so is something 
that can be expected to occur in regular operating procedures.

The issue of proliferation is one that needs a political solution -- ultimately 
-- technical prevention can only endure for as long as the technology remains 
out of reach. Increasing numbers of nations are obtaining  the required 
technical, engineering levels of expertise needed. The nuclear cat is out of 
the bag. The way to reduce the risk of nuclear war is through political means; 
reducing (and channeling) the completion  tensions between the increasing 
number of polities that have amassed the necessary industrial, technical and 
scientific knowhow in order to indigenously master these processes.
Chris

Brent

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RE: Fast moves for nuclear development in Siberia

2015-04-05 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] 
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2015 2:05 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Fast moves for nuclear development in Siberia

Really, it's an interesting piece of tech, but it just seems too clumsy and too 
costly. Please note that I love this kind of tech, if for no other reason in 
that the promise of fusion just keeps on receding into the future. We can talk 
of everything from tokamaks, to inertial confinement, to colliding beam fusion, 
to muon catalysis, and so forth. With fission, it's the same thing, with gas 
cooled reactors, betavoltaics, pwr's, bwr's, mini-reactor's, CANDU reactors. 
Here, also, the proper engineering, costs, and safety, as well as waste 
disposal just keep fading back into dreamland. I love this stuff, being a nerd, 
and all, but I can no longer listen to the blissful b.s. proffered by newsies, 
and academics, alike. What's holding back solar is one great flaw, storage. You 
cannot run a modern large city on solar during cold nights and cloudy days, so 
storage has to be demonstrated over solar cell efficiency. Barring the 
development of solar storage, there's natural gas (methane) and coal. Right 
now, despite solar enthusiast's claims, gas turbines are beating all other 
energy sources down. Some are sure that shale gas is just another economic 
bubble, and it may be, but there is the use of gas hydrates on the horizon, not 
economically, but in 20 + years, or longer, than yes. This is the future, 
unless we get some fixes in for fission, fusion, solar, geothermal, or anything 
else. 

The rapid spread of all electric vehicles and plugin hybrids is also a build 
out of a distributed electric energy storage network that will provide 
significant peak load capacity or the much easier to provision dribbles of 
energy (relative to peak load demand) that are needed in the middle of the 
night when the sun isn’t shining (but the wind generally is blowing). The 
problem is solving itself; it is not insurmountable; spinup reserves of nimble 
medium scale gas turbines could fill the rare gaps.

-Original Message-
From: meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, Apr 5, 2015 4:39 pm
Subject: Re: Fast moves for nuclear development in Siberia

On 4/5/2015 11:09 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:
 Actually
compared with the Uranium fuel cycle the Thorium fuel cycle is neutron poor, a

 LFTR produces enough neutrons to burn up 100% of the Thorium but there isn't
a lot of 
 wiggle room, however this is an advantage not a disadvantage. If
somebody tried to 
 secretly siphon off some of the U233 produced in a reactor
to make a bomb the reactor 
 would simply stop and it would be hard to keep
that secret, also fewer neutrons means 
 less damage to the equipment, you
already don't have to worry about the most important 
 maintenance problem
that a conventional reactor has, cracks in the solid fuel rods 
 caused by
neutrons, because a LFTR has no solid fuel rods, it's fuel is a liquid and you

 can't crack a liquid.

The reason LFTRs have been touted as proliferation
resistant is that the U233 is mixed 
with U232 which makes its use in a weapons
almost impossible.  But the proliferation 
problem for a LFTR is that
Proactinium can be chemically remove from the cycle, which 
prevents the
accumulation of U232.  Then the U233 can be siphoned off and used.  A 2GW 
LFTR
is expected to produce about 60Kg of excess U233 per year; enough for 7 to 8
nuclear 
weapons.  So the proliferation resistance is
exaggerated.

Brent

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RE: DNA Wormholes can cause cancer (what!?)

2015-04-05 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] 

 

 

Chris,

Roger – what an interesting job, if you like reading this kind of stuff that is 
J

 

I knew about DNA being wound around a supporting matrix – e.g. the histones – 
but I never knew that this non-DNA structural protein had any interactions with 
the DNA Wrapped around it) that could control expressing sections of encoding 
DNA. Of course this implies that the histone does more than just provide a 
structural matrix for the DNA to become tightly packed in, and that was news to 
me.

I have been following epigenetic stuff for a while, especially well documented 
for the methylation pathway, but this appears to be yet a separate pathway for 
genomic expression and hereditary transmission of information. 

The story of heredity is getting more and more interesting. For example, check 
out the link to the story below; life (and living systems) seem like they have 
more levels of operation than previously believed.

 

Mothers can pass traits to offspring through bacteria's DNA, mouse study shows 
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/02/150216125425.htm  
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/02/150216125425.htm

 

Cheers,

Chris

 

Hi.  It's good that they have new studies confirming this stuff, but the 
looping of DNA into 3D structures inside the nucleus  has been known for 
awhile.   I think they're even starting to map these interactions just like the 
human genome project.  One of the methods they use is to crosslink the DNA in 
the nucleus so that the shape it's currently in is saved, and then sequence the 
crosslinked areas to identify the crosslinked segments of DNA.  But, I admit 
calling this a wormhole is kind of just good marketing.  I guess the everything 
list is kind of like a wormhole that brings together distant people so they can 
talk about everything! :-)

 

Also, on the epigenetic inheritance thing via histones, it's also good that 
new studies are proving this stuff, but epigenetic changes (changes in gene 
expression caused by things other than changes to the DNA sequence) that can be 
inherited have also been known for 10 years or so.  So far, what they know are 
that these changes are caused by adding or removing methyl groups to the DNA 
bases or methyl and acetyl groups to the histones.  That affects how the genes 
are expressed.  These changes can be affected by the environment and your own 
activities (like exercise).   So, your descendants may thank you for exercising 
and eating right!

 

The only reason I know some stuff about this is that I have kind of a weird 
job where I read biochem. articles all day and put the new stuff into a 
database. 

 

See you!

 

Roger 

 

 




On Saturday, April 4, 2015 at 3:08:19 PM UTC-4, cdemorsella wrote:



-Original Message- 
From: everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript:  
[mailto:everyth...@googlegroups.com javascript: ] On Behalf Of Russell 
Standish 
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 1:44 PM 
To: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
Subject: Re: DNA Wormholes can cause cancer (what!?) 

Of course, this is what Australia's John Mattick has been saying for decades (I 
heard him talk on this nearly 15 years ago, for instance, and he'd been railing 
at the establishment sometime before that). 

 But wormholes? Really? Someone in marketing has been given far too liberal 
 a rein. 

They're always on the hunt for that catchy title aren't they; I find them 
amusing :)   
Still, in seriousness, it's an interesting idea: that previously overlooked, 
non-local effects,  naturally operating within an organisms DNA may be playing 
a more fundamental role in life than previously believed (or even considered to 
be occurring at all) 
Chris 

Cheers 


On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 05:26:16PM +, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything 
List wrote: 
 [Have been very busy on a new software project and have not had time 
 to follow and participate on this list... such an active list :). ] 
 Came across this article and found it interesting also from an 
 information science point of view -- taking the perspective of DNA 
 being a fairly dynamic information repository. It seems like the 
 butterfly effect is operating in DNA... a small difference one place 
 can result in effects being triggered in very distant DNA locations... 
 or as the researchers said... kind of like a wormhole.-Chris 
 
 Cancer risk linked to DNA ‘wormholes’ 
 
 February 25, 2015 
 Single-letter genetic variations within parts of the genome once dismissed as 
 “junk DNA” can increase cancer risk through remote effects on far-off genes, 
 new research by scientists at The Institute of Cancer Research, London 
 shows.The researchers found that DNA sequences within “gene deserts” — so 
 called because they are completely devoid of genes — can regulate gene 
 activity elsewhere by forming DNA loops across

RE: Fast moves for nuclear development in Siberia

2015-04-05 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Sunday, April 05, 2015 9:55 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Fast moves for nuclear development in Siberia

On Sat, Apr 4, 2015  'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:  

 Also, and this is a major point in its favor LFTR reactor types would be walk 
 away safe. Because the U233 fuel plus fertile thorium is solution in the 
 fluoride salt coolant a simple and effective failure plug could be designed 
 in at the low point of the inner core circulating design. If the reactor ever 
 started overheating the plug would be made of a material with a substantially 
 lower melting point than the vessel. In other words it would fail first; 
 guaranteed. 

And that's not the only inherent safety feature, because the fuel is a liquid, 
Thorium dissolved in un-corrosive molten Fluoride salt, if things get too hot 
the liquid expands and the fuel gets less dense and so the reaction slows down. 
The operators wouldn't have to do anything, it's just physics. A LFTR is 
walkaway safe.

Yes, that as well. The liquid nature of the fuel/fertile/salt mix of LFTR is 
superior in this dimension as well vis vis systems that enclose the fuel in 
rod-shaped encasings and in which the coolant is separate. Being walk-away-safe 
is a critical advantage over other proposed fast breeder reactors that instead 
would depend on critical active safety features that if they should fail would 
lead to catastrophic failure modes.

Also, unlike other proposed high temperature coolants (heat transfer fluids) 
such as sodium, the fluoride slats used in the LFTR design do not react with 
air or water (sodium is very reactive by comparison). Thus, in the advent of a 
catastrophic failure that leads to the LFTR circulating fluid becoming exposed 
to either air or perhaps water (running through a secondary heat exchange 
loop), the accident will not become compounded by the chemical reactivity of 
the heat exchange fluid itself. 

 Another advantage of the LFTR design is that they have a broader neutron 
 bandwidth (being able to utilize both fast neutrons as well as slower 
 neutrons). I guess one could say LFTR has a higher neutron efficiency; being 
 able to use them across a broader spectrum of energies.

Actually compared with the Uranium fuel cycle the Thorium fuel cycle is neutron 
poor, a LFTR produces enough neutrons to burn up 100% of the Thorium but there 
isn't a lot of wiggle room, however this is an advantage not a disadvantage. If 
somebody tried to secretly siphon off some of the U233 produced in a reactor to 
make a bomb the reactor would simply stop and it would be hard to keep that 
secret, also fewer neutrons means less damage to the equipment, you already 
don't have to worry about the most important maintenance problem that a 
conventional reactor has, cracks in the solid fuel rods caused by neutrons, 
because a LFTR has no solid fuel rods, it's fuel is a liquid and you can't 
crack a liquid. 

Interesting. I was referring to the ability of the LFTR type breeders to 
utilize thermal neutrons. U-233 gives off more than two neutrons per absorption 
at thermal energies, which is more than enough to sustain the fission process, 
whereas the P-239 produced by plutonium breeders (from the U-238 fertile 
material) absorb a significant number of neutrons at thermal energy levels, in 
this manner starving the fission process. In order to keep plutonium breeders 
going it is necessary to go to fast neutron design which does away with the 
graphite moderators (used in the thermal neutron design to slow the neutrons 
down).

Fast breeder reactors raise many more safety, economy, and nuclear 
proliferation challenges than do LFTR variants for this reason.

Chris

There is a excellent video about LFTR's, it's not short but it's packed with 
information and well worth your time:

/www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9M__yYbsZ4 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9M__yYbsZ4 

  John K Clark

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RE: [SPAM]Re: Fast moves for nuclear development in Siberia

2015-04-05 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb
Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2015 8:59 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: [SPAM]Re: Fast moves for nuclear development in Siberia

On 4/4/2015 7:45 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

Whatever the breeder fuel cycle: LFTR or the (seems like the Russians are going 
in that direction) plutonium economy; inherent passive safety features are 
critical. If we learned anything from Fukushima, I would argue that one of the 
lessons must be that reactors need to be walk away safe, being designed with 
in-built passive safety designed failure modes. This also argues for smaller 
scale units than behemoths like the MarkII design. The very big units just 
generate too much heat all, in a remarkably small place… too much for passive 
safety to be practical. I think a better reactor scale would be around 200MW, 
big enough to matter, but small enough to be manageable in failure mode.

Most proposed advanced reactors will operate at higher temperatures than the 
older designs.  This both makes them more thermodynamically efficient and it 
allows them to be air cooled.

The safety problem isn't from the high temperature in the design use, it's from 
the residual radioactive components that continue to decay after the reactor 
shuts down.  There's been assertions about Fukushima's core melt down and 
escaping the reactor vessel based on muon imaging.  But the corium didn't 
escape the concrete containment under the reactor.

It is not so much the operating temperature itself but the continued production 
of massive amounts of thermal energy (from continued radioactive decay going on 
inside the core + the SFPs as well) even as the plant is being put into 
shutdown mode, which is one of the issues with the big PWR type reactors. Even 
after fission has been halted, it takes weeks for a big PWR to cool down, as 
the on-going decay produces large amounts of heat.

In reference to the recent muon imaging: I don’t think they know that it did 
not already burn through the outer concrete containment, in fact the muon 
imaging suggests that it may have in fact already burnt all the way through and 
be located somewhere in the underlying earth/rock matrix beneath that 
particular unit. Meltdowns have occurred in units: #1, #2, and #3 – that is 
three core meltdowns in all.

Chris

Brent 

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RE: Fast moves for nuclear development in Siberia

2015-04-04 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb
Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2015 6:58 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Fast moves for nuclear development in Siberia

On 4/4/2015 5:58 PM, John Clark wrote:

On Sat, Apr 4, 2015  'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

 Has anybody been following this. Looks like the lead cooled fast  breeder 
 design is being carried ahead in Russia.

It doesn't need high pressure which is good and, if there is a leak the molten 
lead would soon solidly and self seal which is also good, but the Russians have 
used this sort of design before in their submarines and that's not exactly a 
sterling recommendation in my book. And it makes Plutonium from U238 and that's 
not my favorite element, call me old fashioned but I think the world already 
has more than enough Plutonium in it. I like the Thorium fuel cycle much more 
than the Uranium fuel cycle.

Also thorium is much more abundant.  And it has been demonstrated at Oak Ridge 
as part of the Air Force's program to build a nuclear powered bomber.  I don't 
think any new reactor technology is likely to get built unless some government 
gets involved to fund research and to tailor regulations to the new technology.

Also, and this is a major point in its favor LFTR reactor types would be walk 
away safe. Because the U233 fuel plus fertile thorium is solution in the 
fluoride salt coolant a simple and effective failure plug could be designed in 
at the low point of the inner core circulating design. If the reactor ever 
started overheating the plug would be made of a material with a substantially 
lower melting point than the vessel. In other words it would fail first; 
guaranteed.

In this manner the hot fuel/fertile/salt mix (plus various by products in the 
mix) would get channeled into a sub catchment chamber made of neutron absorbing 
materials and with a surface shape that would disperse the hot liquid core 
circulating fluid over a relatively wide flat area beneath the reactor, and 
without any intervention the reaction speed would very significantly slow down 
(free neutron starvation); the hot liquid (also radioactively very hot of 
course) fluid would cool down and solidify into what can be pictured as a kind 
of cupcake shaped containment.

It would still be a big cleanup, but it would be a manageable one that would in 
many senses have elf-contained itself.

Another advantage of the LFTR design is that they have a broader neutron 
bandwidth (being able to utilize both fast neutrons as well as slower 
neutrons). I guess one could say LFTR has a higher neutron efficiency; being 
able to use them across a broader spectrum of energies.

Whatever the breeder fuel cycle: LFTR or the (seems like the Russians are going 
in that direction) plutonium economy; inherent passive safety features are 
critical. If we learned anything from Fukushima, I would argue that one of the 
lessons must be that reactors need to be walk away safe, being designed with 
in-built passive safety designed failure modes. This also argues for smaller 
scale units than behemoths like the MarkII design. The very big units just 
generate too much heat all, in a remarkably small place… too much for passive 
safety to be practical. I think a better reactor scale would be around 200MW, 
big enough to matter, but small enough to be manageable in failure mode.

Chris

Brent

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RE: Iranian joke about the big deal, or understanding that was just reached.

2015-04-04 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

Nicely wry joke, I saw online, making the rounds in Tehran about the just
signed deal: 

 

I went to the store now and they still don't have whiskey! What kind of a
deal is this?

 

My non-sequitur to that: I'll have that joke on the rocks, please.

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RE: DNA Wormholes can cause cancer (what!?)

2015-04-04 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

-Original Message-
From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Russell Standish
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2015 1:44 PM
To: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List
Subject: Re: DNA Wormholes can cause cancer (what!?)

Of course, this is what Australia's John Mattick has been saying for decades (I 
heard him talk on this nearly 15 years ago, for instance, and he'd been railing 
at the establishment sometime before that).

 But wormholes? Really? Someone in marketing has been given far too liberal 
 a rein.

They're always on the hunt for that catchy title aren't they; I find them 
amusing :)  
Still, in seriousness, it's an interesting idea: that previously overlooked, 
non-local effects,  naturally operating within an organisms DNA may be playing 
a more fundamental role in life than previously believed (or even considered to 
be occurring at all)
Chris

Cheers

On Thu, Feb 26, 2015 at 05:26:16PM +, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything 
List wrote:
 [Have been very busy on a new software project and have not had time 
 to follow and participate on this list... such an active list :). ] 
 Came across this article and found it interesting also from an 
 information science point of view -- taking the perspective of DNA 
 being a fairly dynamic information repository. It seems like the 
 butterfly effect is operating in DNA... a small difference one place 
 can result in effects being triggered in very distant DNA locations... 
 or as the researchers said... kind of like a wormhole.-Chris

 Cancer risk linked to DNA ‘wormholes’

 February 25, 2015
 Single-letter genetic variations within parts of the genome once dismissed as 
 “junk DNA” can increase cancer risk through remote effects on far-off genes, 
 new research by scientists at The Institute of Cancer Research, London 
 shows.The researchers found that DNA sequences within “gene deserts” — so 
 called because they are completely devoid of genes — can regulate gene 
 activity elsewhere by forming DNA loops across relatively large distances.The 
 study helps solve a mystery about how genetic variations in parts of the 
 genome that don’t appear to be doing very much can increase cancer risk.Their 
 study, published in Nature Communications, also has implications for the 
 study of other complex genetic diseases.The researchers developed a technique 
 called Capture Hi-C to investigate long-range physical interactions between 
 stretches of DNA – allowing them to look at how specific areas of chromosomes 
 interact physically in more detail.The researchers assessed 14 regions of DNA 
 that contain single-letter variations previously linked to bowel cancer risk. 
 They detected significant long-range interactions for all 14 regions, 
 confirming their role in gene regulation.“Our new technique shows that 
 genetic variations are able to increase cancer risk through long-range 
 looping interactions with cancer-causing genes elsewhere in the genome,” 
 study leader Professor Richard Houlston, Professor of Molecular and 
 Population Genetics at The Institute of Cancer Research, London said.“It is 
 sometimes described as analogous to a wormhole, where distortions in space 
 and time could in theory bring together distant parts of the universe.”The 
 research was funded by the EU, Cancer Research UK, Leukaemia  Lymphoma 
 Research, and The Institute of Cancer Research (ICR).

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Prof Russell Standish  Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics  hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
University of New South Wales  http://www.hpcoders.com.au

 Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret 
 (http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html)

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RE: [SPAM]Re: Economic inequality

2015-04-04 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 12:31 PM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: Economic inequality

On 3/31/2015 10:56 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 9:26 PM
To: EveryThing
Subject: [SPAM]Re: Economic inequality

The SciAm article doesn't even begin to describe how great the inequality is.  
Like most statistical presentations it divides the population into quintiles.  
But that hides the fact that is not the to 20 to 1 percentile that hold the 
wealth, it is the tope 1% and even just the top 0.1%

And that graph describes the source of so many of our social ills; this high 
degree of income distortion -- in terms of the US being an outlier, on the 
global distribution of developed economies -- is the fundamental driver of 
pretty much everything else going wrong with this country; from crumbling 
infrastructure, to crumbling education, to crumbling living standards. 

But the GDP/person is up.  Those things are crumbling because the rich don't 
use them and so are not interested in paying for them and the rich control 
politicians thru campaign contributions.

Precisely; we live in a country with the best government money can buy.

Could this be what life is like in a crumbling empire, far out into imperial 
overreach, stretched thin across the globe, in the vast archipelago of bases – 
including places of true logistical nightmare, like Afghanistan (the logistical 
nightmare of nightmares…there is no feasible way to get the heavy armor out of 
Afghanistan, except through Russia, with Pakistan definitely not wanting mass 
transiting US armor.

The cost of bearing empire is breaking our backs, and with each successive 
cycle of disaster capitalism – creative destruction, right-sizing, out-sourcing 
etc. the empire is in a race to scraping bottom, as all empires do. Inside the 
bubble of power the mantra remains “we make history” (as once boasted by one 
famous neocon), but on the ground it is not all going as planned… though who is 
going to ever bring the emperor the bad news… any volunteers? Naturally we 
don’t have an emperor (yet), but we do have a powerful deeply rooted patrician 
aristocracy that has been ascendant here for the last four decades.

You seem to have overlooked the fact that what has, in the past, leveled the 
wealth is war.  Of course that's because the government raised taxes, regulated 
prices, and invested in research, development, and technology as part of the 
war effort.

The kind of total war efforts, WWII being the preeminent example, that worked 
in the past like gigantic Keynesian money pumps (and all the spin offs form the 
war effort) are not easily reproducible in today’s environment. The world we 
find ourselves living in today has been environmentally and resource 
impoverished – compared with the how the world was in 1939. The common 
denominator of all war is that it is the most horribly expensive activity a 
society can engage in. War made sense when one empire conquered surrounding 
weaker states and transferred their wealth to the imperial center; or even 
perhaps one could argue – as you have – when the resulting martialing of 
resources, required by the war effort, propelled a world stuck in the morass of 
global economic depression (the great depression era of the 1930s) out of that 
state of affairs.

In today’s environment, with the much tighter margins (resulting from needing 
to acquire resources from increasingly marginal sources) I don’t think that the 
outcome would be a post war era of relative global prosperity, rather I think 
it would accelerate a global course down into hard bitten poverty and 
collapsing social fabrics.

One can argue this point, of course, and present an alternate hypothesis, but I 
feel it is a salient and foundational fact of life that needs to be considered 
when assessing the probable outcomes of global war.

After WWII the Americans victors opened up the great oil fields of Saudi Arabia 
and the other gulf states. The EROI of the early wells sunk in the Ghawar super 
giant field were around 100:1… that was a payoff! Now returns on new fields are 
in the order of only 8:1 or so. 

What would the victors of the war win? Tiny disparate challenging pockets of 
resources that would require very significant capital and energetic investment 
in order to extract the increasingly marginal yields.

IMO, the world needs cooperation, if we are going to find a way out of this 
compounded mess we find ourselves in.

Chris

Brent

Will it swing back the other way, as it has in the past – such as with the New 
Deal, or earlier with Teddy Roosevelt’s trust busting of Standard Oil; or is 
this just the prelude to… welcome

RE: Histones (proteins that form the scaffolding around which DNA wraps itself may also themselves be involved in heredity processes

2015-04-04 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

The process of heredity may have more levels of actors in it than just the
DNA itself. An interesting notion that seems logical; a case of living
processes employing various different strategies in parallel, which would
seem a plausible result of a process of random selection based on
environmental fitness.

Chris

 

DNA can't explain all inherited biological traits, research shows

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/04/150402161751.htm

 

Characteristics passed between generations are not decided solely by DNA,
but can be brought about by other material in cells, new research shows.
Scientists studied proteins found in cells, known as histones, which are not
part of the genetic code, but act as spools around which DNA is wound.
Histones are known to control whether or not genes are switched on.

 

Quoting two paragraphs from the article here: 

Researchers found that naturally occurring changes to these proteins, which
affect how they control genes, can be sustained from one generation to the
next and so influence which traits are passed on.

The finding demonstrates for the first time that DNA is not solely
responsible for how characteristics are inherited. It paves the way for
research into how and when this method of inheritance occurs in nature, and
if it is linked to particular traits or health conditions.

It may also inform research into whether changes to the histone proteins
that are caused by environmental conditions -- such as stress or diet -- can
influence the function of genes passed on to offspring.

 

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RE: Fast moves for nuclear development in Siberia

2015-04-04 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

I have been following the publicly available information on development of the 
various GenIV breeder variants. Am curious as to how much actual progress the 
Russians may have made in pursuing this one particular form – using molten lead 
as the heat transfer fluid (which is why they have such a high thermal 
efficiency at 43%). It may surprise some, but I am not opposed to the idea of 
nuclear power per se; though I do oppose systems that depend on active safety 
features in order to prevent a core meltdown… and I do have reasonable concerns 
about how waste products will be contained in sequestered facilities (or for 
some materials potentially getting re-processed getting burnt up in breeders)

The natural gas uptick in availability is a short duration bubble, resulting 
from highly capital, water and energy intensive production techniques that is 
squeezing out small marginal pockets of available fossil energy from a 
containing oil/gas bearing shale rock formation. I would not count on this long 
term – already there is a massive capital flight from this sector (that 
preceded the recent collapse in the global spot prices). 

Solar PV will continue to grow: For example, GlobalData, a well-known sector 
forecasting company that publishes forecasts on a wide variety of industry 
sectors and trends, published figures that show a trend line indicating that PV 
module capacity will grow from the current base of 135.66 GW installed by 2013 
to 413.98 GW in 2020, based on a number of factors, including volume trends, 
average price, and production share.

In another forecast, by this same information company, they estimate that 
investment in the global wind energy sector will rise to above $100 billion, 
driving up installed wind capacity from the current global figure of 364.9 
Gigawatts (GW) in 2014 to 650.8 GW by 2020. This yields, a cumulative installed 
capacity for solar PV + wind of over a Terawatt by 2020. This does not include 
figures for CSP (concentrated solar thermal power) either, which is significant 
in some areas (California, Nevada, Spain)… and may (or may not) grow.

 

 

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] 
Sent: Saturday, April 04, 2015 9:55 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Fast moves for nuclear development in Siberia

 

I have literally monitored developments for years that would return some form 
of nuclear fission as a safe possibility to be the main power source for the 
human species. It always sounds interestingly, and innovative, but never takes 
off to become a reality. Thorium, Molten Salt, Micro, Betavoltaic, subcritical 
reactors which switch off when a laser or proton beam stop, all the wonderful 
ideas, and more. But these things never leave the laboratory. I will not argue 
why this is true, or that its a total shame that it never takes off. I think at 
this late date, fusion, a different process,  will wait till the 22nd century, 
and for the next 85 years its going to be natural gas (argue about this later) 
or solar and wind. Electric cars power by solar and wind, factories, homes, and 
the rest of the slack taken up by natural gas. Tesla and Prius will eventually 
lead the way in transportation. Yes, this view is disappointing, but true. 



-Original Message-
From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, Apr 4, 2015 12:26 am
Subject: RE: Fast moves for nuclear development in Siberia

Has anybody been following this. Looks like the lead cooled fast  breeder 
design is being carried ahead in Russia.

 

An experimental lead-cooled nuclear reactor will be built at the Siberian 
Chemical Combine (SCC). If successful, the small BREST-300 unit could be the 
first of a new wave of Russian fast reactors.

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/NN_Fast_moves_for_nuclear_development_in_Siberia_0410121.html

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RE: Fast moves for nuclear development in Siberia

2015-04-03 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

Has anybody been following this. Looks like the lead cooled fast  breeder
design is being carried ahead in Russia.

 

An experimental lead-cooled nuclear reactor will be built at the Siberian
Chemical Combine (SCC). If successful, the small BREST-300 unit could be the
first of a new wave of Russian fast reactors.

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/NN_Fast_moves_for_nuclear_development_in_S
iberia_0410121.html

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RE: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM]Re: Economic inequality

2015-04-01 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona 
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 12:24 AM
To: everything-list
Subject: [SPAM]Re: [SPAM]Re: Economic inequality

I don´t believe in anything that SCIAM says except in hard sciences. And event 
in that I have my doubts

These kind of publications lost their credibility time ago. Well, and many 
pseudoscience departments

in the universities. They are nothing but propaganda organs driven by power and 
money

Well not directly power and money, but leftist fanatism as a cover for the seek 
of power and money.

And it is with this ad hominem attack on the alleged slant of the source that 
Alberto chooses to ignore an (easily fact checkable)  graph that illustrates 
how income distribution has changed over the last hundred years. You display 
such power of intellect…. Amazing! 

also very Ostrich-like; keep your head down Alberto, the sand is good for your 
brain.

Chris

2015-04-01 7:56 GMT+02:00 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com:

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 9:26 PM
To: EveryThing
Subject: [SPAM]Re: Economic inequality

The SciAm article doesn't even begin to describe how great the inequality is.  
Like most statistical presentations it divides the population into quintiles.  
But that hides the fact that is not the to 20 to 1 percentile that hold the 
wealth, it is the tope 1% and even just the top 0.1%

And that graph describes the source of so many of our social ills; this high 
degree of income distortion -- in terms of the US being an outlier, on the 
global distribution of developed economies -- is the fundamental driver of 
pretty much everything else going wrong with this country; from crumbling 
infrastructure, to crumbling education, to crumbling living standards. Could 
this be what life is like in a crumbling empire, far out into imperial 
overreach, stretched thin across the globe, in the vast archipelago of bases – 
including places of true logistical nightmare, like Afghanistan (the logistical 
nightmare of nightmares…there is no feasible way to get the heavy armor out of 
Afghanistan, except through Russia, with Pakistan definitely not wanting mass 
transiting US armor.

The cost of bearing empire is breaking our backs, and with each successive 
cycle of disaster capitalism – creative destruction, right-sizing, out-sourcing 
etc. the empire is in a race to scraping bottom, as all empires do. Inside the 
bubble of power the mantra remains “we make history” (as once boasted by one 
famous neocon), but on the ground it is not all going as planned… though who is 
going to ever bring the emperor the bad news… any volunteers? Naturally we 
don’t have an emperor (yet), but we do have a powerful deeply rooted patrician 
aristocracy that has been ascendant here for the last four decades.

Will it swing back the other way, as it has in the past – such as with the New 
Deal, or earlier with Teddy Roosevelt’s trust busting of Standard Oil; or is 
this just the prelude to… welcome to tomorrow?

Chris

http://www.voxeu.org/article/exploding-wealth-inequality-united-states

Brent

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/economic-inequality-it-s-far-worse-than-you-think/

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Alberto.

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Re: Are all terrorrists Muslim? Not even close!

2015-04-01 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

  From: spudboy100 via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com
 To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
 Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2015 4:40 PM
 Subject: Re: Are all terrorrists Muslim? Not even close!

In his long rambling manifesto he spoke -- much like you do in fact Mitch, of a 
clash of civilizations, and he saw himself as a defender of a Christian, Aryan 
Norway, being overrun by brown people. I am just going by his own stated 
motives, not your reinterpretation of what they must have been. The actual 
crime stats speak of a different story most terrorist attacks, by far-- in 
terms of numbers of incidences, but also in terms of overall damage, injury and 
death,  in the US and in the EU are not being perpetrated by Islamicists, but 
by other kinds of extremists, including many various separatist 
movements.Hindus and Buddhists and Jews and Christians as well are committing 
acts of terror; however in the Western press these rarely get reported as such; 
most often the reports speak of a disturbed or deranged person, with no mention 
of the fact that their derangement was centered in their Christian 
(Nationalist) or other beliefs.If you added up all the people who died as a 
result of terrorist acts over the last 50 years do you think it would even come 
close to the number of just Americans who get violently murdered each and every 
single year?In the year 2013 you were more likely to die as the result of being 
man slaughtered by a toddler with a gun in this country than you were likely to 
get murdered by a terrorist.I am trying to put all this brouhaha into some kind 
of perspective. It is so far down the stack of imminent threats this world 
actually faces; kind of makes you wonder why it gets so much attention and is 
presented as being our most pressing problem. What's the agenda? And whose 
agenda is it?

We have here a case of selective memory. Brevik was indeed a Nazi (no surprise 
there) but you do notice that all his victims were Norwegian socialists? His 
motive was revenge against his fellow countrymen, not Muslims living in Norway, 
which he could have easily attacked. It's impossible to truly see Brevik as a 
church goer, even in the Nazi WW2 German Lutheran style.  You forget the 
Islamist attacks in Madrid 2004 which killed 191 and the subway attack in 
London which killed, and 52 dead in the London tube attacks. If Hindus were 
committing mass murder all over the world, we'd be talking about them instead 
of believers in Muhammad. It's purely practical to focus on the Islamists and 
there's no easy resolution to this war (which it is). I can bring up the London 
beheading, and hundreds of other jihad attack. In the 70's I could have pointed 
out the IRA, Red Army Fraction, Bader Meinhoff types, or the Chilean military 
bombing in DC. The Islamists are super well funded and are motivated by a 
promise of eternity.   

-Original Message-
From: 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List everything-list@googlegroups.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wed, Apr 1, 2015 1:20 pm
Subject: RE: Are all terrorrists Muslim? Not even close!

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RE: Are all terrorrists Muslim? Not even close!

2015-04-01 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Alberto G. Corona 
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 1:53 AM
To: everything-list
Subject: Re: Are all terrorrists Muslim? Not even close!

All these movements are in the orbit of Cuba and Venezuela as well as with ties 
with islamism. The basque terrorists in the 70s trained together with the 
Palestinian terrorists LPO  (in the valley of the Becca) and with argelian 
communists.

Please be informed. 

Was the right-wing Christian fanatic Norwegian terrorist Anders who mass 
murdered (77 people injuring hundreds more) scores of Norwegians in a car bomb, 
followed by a cold blooded execution style gunning down of unarmed teenagers in 
2011, and who acted in the name of his Christian supremacist ideology also --- 
covertly somehow also an Islamic terrorist? 

Was the train station bombing in Bologna Italy, which along with the afore 
mentioned Norwegian act of mass terrorism ranks as Europes worst post WWII act 
of terrorism, was that act perpetrated by Islamicists (or was it rather 
perpetrated by shadowy groups linked to the P2 lodge and to Operation Gladio?)

Inform yourself, yourself! 

The two single largest acts of terrorism in post WWII Europe both committed by 
far right (and in the case of the Bologna bombing also implicating a shadowy 
paramilitary organization called Operation Gladio).

In the US, was Timothy McVeigh also a crypto Muslim of sorts? Or was that mass 
murder act of terrorism also driven by an extremist right wing ideology?

Me thinks, it is rather more yourself that needs to inform themselves, 
seminarian.

Chris

In the other side nobody says that all the terrorists are Muslims. You both may 
be a little off of reality guys. What children literature do you read?. 

There are alaso a great number of extreme left terrorist that has diminished 
since the defeat of the USSR. But there remain a lot of nostalgics of that era 
that populate the centers of power. And even the discussion lists.

2015-04-01 0:06 GMT+02:00 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com:

  _  

From: John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: Are all terrorrists Muslim? Not even close!

On Tue, Mar 31, 2015  'Chris de Morsella' wrote:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/14/are-all-terrorists-muslims-it-s-not-even-close.html

 “Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims.” How many 
 times have you heard that one? 

Once. 

  Why don’t we see Christian, Buddhist, or Jewish terrorists?

We do. Religion poisons everything.

No argument form me on that point. However a really surprising quantity of 
terrorist acts (at least in Europe)  are from one of the many separatist 
militant groups operating in that continent, in such places such as Corsica, 
the Basque regions etc. Places that have become folded into one nation state or 
another with which they do not much get along.

Chris

  John K Clark 

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Alberto.

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RE: Life in the Islamic State for women

2015-04-01 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John Clark
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2015 10:18 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Life in the Islamic State for women

On Tue, Mar 31, 2015  spudboy100 via Everything List 
everything-list@googlegroups.com wrote:

 sometime its who you are silent about that is an indictment.

Yes, and today I would say that moderate Muslims are guilty of that, assuming 
that such creatures actually exist and are not as mythical as Bigfoot or Black 
Gay Republicans.  

 For example, during the Vietnam conflict, there were mass demonstrations 
 against the war. The leaders of the antiwar movement were never pacifists, 
 but sided with the communists, and especially what the soviets wanted. They 
 never protested against the Soviets hold in eastern europe or soviet funding 
 wars in the middle east, North Korea, or, especially the communist Khmer 
 Rogue in Kapuchea, where a million were massacred, Stalin Style, Mao style.

That is a very good point. Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were the 4 most evil 
men of the 20th century, 

Let us not forget the much more recent genocide that occurred in Rwanda, and 
how the world essentially stood by and let it happen. Yeah, I know the victims 
(and the perpetrators were) Africans, living in some far off country, of 
negligent economic importance or relevance to the set of issues deemed 
important by the developed world mass media, economic and political centers of 
power.

Chris

I don't want to get into which of the 4 should take the #1 position because I 
think it would be tasteless to start arguing that my holocaust was worse than 
your holocaust, but it's clear that all 4 were dreadful human beings. And yet 
even today leftists are only comfortable in criticizing one of those 4. I have 
a theory as to why. Most liberals tend to be academics and the theoretical 
basis of communism as seen in The Communist Manifesto and Das Kapital may 
be economic nonsense but it's not obviously evil; I mean who would object to a 
workers paradise? In practice Communism was evil but in theory it was just 
stupid, however   even in theory the Nazism in Mein Kampf with it's 
anti-semitism and master race crap was nauseating.   

 Now you may ask why would leftists who call themselves now, progressives, 
 side with the Islamists? An incomplete explanation is the progressives hope 
 the Islamists knock the crap out of the West, thus, leaving themselves as the 
 beneficiaries of such a civilizational failure. Maybe its a knee-jerk 
 reaction?

I think it's just knee jerk, somehow they got the idea that to be a good card 
carrying liberal one must respect all religions even if there is absolutely 
nothing respectable about them. 

  John K Clark

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Re: Fwd: Global Warming Hoax Confirmed

2015-04-01 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: LizR lizj...@gmail.com

Yes, I think everyone should get their April fools in in good time, so us
Australasians can appreciate them.
Still, thank god we can stop worrying about climate change...
I always suspected that the most honorable Senator Inhofe was really actually,
a giant of science; now this confirms that indeed he has been right all along;
it was all just a hoax.

On 2 April 2015 at 10:24, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote:

Thank goodness someone still pulls April fools jokes. Actually, this
is the first one I've seen this year, and it is now the 2nd of April
here in Sydney!

Cheers

On Wed, Apr 01, 2015 at 01:38:07PM -0700, meekerdb wrote:

Forwarded Message
Remember all that stuff we told you about 97% of scientists agreeing
that climate change was real? And all those sad polar bears hanging
off of icebergs? And all the dire warnings about catastrophic
sea-level rise?

We just learned that none of it is true. It was all a huge prank
pulled off by the world’s scientists. Senator Inhofe was right.
Watch this video and learn the unvarnished truth about the climate
change hoax

https://nextgenclimate.org/hotseat/?utm_medium=emailutm_source=ThinkProgressutm_campaign=SPEM-AFD-video

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Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile)
Principal, High Performance Coders
Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au
University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au

Latest project: The Amoeba's Secret
(http://www.hpcoders.com.au/AmoebasSecret.html)

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Re: Global Warming Hoax Confirmed

2015-04-01 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: Alberto G. Corona agocor...@gmail.comhere comes the sun in the
spring and here comes the warmist guys again
And here comes Alberto getting all hot under the collar again; even when people
are just fooling around on the first day of April... imagine that!

2015-04-01 22:38 GMT+02:00 meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net:

Forwarded Message
Remember all that stuff we told you about 97% of scientists agreeing that
climate change was real? And all those sad polar bears hanging off of icebergs?
And all the dire warnings about catastrophic sea-level rise?

We just learned that none of it is true. It was all a huge prank pulled off by
the world’s scientists. Senator Inhofe was right. Watch this video and learn
the unvarnished truth about the climate change hoax

https://nextgenclimate.org/hotseat/?utm_medium=emailutm_source=ThinkProgressutm_campaign=SPEM-AFD-video

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RE: [SPAM]Re: Economic inequality

2015-03-31 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of meekerdb
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 9:26 PM
To: EveryThing
Subject: [SPAM]Re: Economic inequality

The SciAm article doesn't even begin to describe how great the inequality is.  
Like most statistical presentations it divides the population into quintiles.  
But that hides the fact that is not the to 20 to 1 percentile that hold the 
wealth, it is the tope 1% and even just the top 0.1%

And that graph describes the source of so many of our social ills; this high 
degree of income distortion -- in terms of the US being an outlier, on the 
global distribution of developed economies -- is the fundamental driver of 
pretty much everything else going wrong with this country; from crumbling 
infrastructure, to crumbling education, to crumbling living standards. Could 
this be what life is like in a crumbling empire, far out into imperial 
overreach, stretched thin across the globe, in the vast archipelago of bases – 
including places of true logistical nightmare, like Afghanistan (the logistical 
nightmare of nightmares…there is no feasible way to get the heavy armor out of 
Afghanistan, except through Russia, with Pakistan definitely not wanting mass 
transiting US armor.

The cost of bearing empire is breaking our backs, and with each successive 
cycle of disaster capitalism – creative destruction, right-sizing, out-sourcing 
etc. the empire is in a race to scraping bottom, as all empires do. Inside the 
bubble of power the mantra remains “we make history” (as once boasted by one 
famous neocon), but on the ground it is not all going as planned… though who is 
going to ever bring the emperor the bad news… any volunteers? Naturally we 
don’t have an emperor (yet), but we do have a powerful deeply rooted patrician 
aristocracy that has been ascendant here for the last four decades.

Will it swing back the other way, as it has in the past – such as with the New 
Deal, or earlier with Teddy Roosevelt’s trust busting of Standard Oil; or is 
this just the prelude to… welcome to tomorrow?

Chris

http://www.voxeu.org/article/exploding-wealth-inequality-united-states

Brent

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/economic-inequality-it-s-far-worse-than-you-think/

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RE: Life in the Islamic State for women

2015-03-31 Thread 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List

From: everything-list@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, March 31, 2015 7:16 AM
To: everything-list@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Life in the Islamic State for women

Quentin, sometime its who you are silent about that is an indictment. For 
example, during the Vietnam conflict, there were mass demonstrations against 
the war. The leaders of the antiwar movement were never pacifists, but sided 
with the communists, and especially what the soviets wanted. They never 
protested against the Soviets hold in eastern europe or soviet funding wars in 
the middle east, North Korea, or, especially the communist Khmer Rogue in 
Kapuchea, where a million were massacred, Stalin Style, Mao style. Silent, like 
the lambs, to paraphrase Hannibal Lecter. These anti-war types, because of 
their being not pacifists, but communist, in their ideology, remained silent, 
Similarly, the anti-war peeps of today support the Islamists. For personal 
example (a minor one) when I perused the IEET site, where in one professor of 
anthropology, wrote an article on that website, stating that the Hamas war 
against Israel was a Transhumanist cause. I challenged the fellow on this and 
pondered what Transhumanists can have in common with Hamas who believes in and 
enforces Shariah Law (and all that implies). Let us say the examples I raised 
met with objections there, where John Hughes likes things hard left. I ended up 
contacting a former manager of that site who confirmed my view (his moderate 
liberal-libertarian). 

You have a strange distorted understanding of history as it becomes when 
squeezed through the toothpaste tube of your ideological optic. You are living 
proof of the dangers of subjectivism, of how the act of wearing ideological 
blinders distorts reality into the weird paranoid production your mind 
perceives. You take partial facts, half-truths, fantastic interpretation and 
cook up a grand conspiracy in the feverish recesses of your mental reification 
of reality – as it becomes perceived through your distorted optic. Reality only 
seems this way to you because this is what your mind’s eye demands it should be.

I love my country enough to criticize it; do you?

Chris

Now you may ask why would leftists who call themselves now, progressives, side 
with the Islamists? An incomplete explanation is the progressives hope the 
Islamists knock the crap out of the West, thus, leaving themselves as the 
beneficiaries of such a civilizational failure. Maybe its a knee-jerk reaction? 
I don't care anymore, I just view who sides with whom. For instance, there has 
never been a proposed boycott out of academia against Saudi, Qatar, Iran, Iraq 
(under Saddam) North Korea, etc. I am not trying to convince you (an impossible 
task) simply trying to point out the logical incongruity of being good with 
Islamist totalitarianism. I am surprised that our civilization has not erupted 
in massive violence, and right now the streets are quiet?

-Original Message-
From: Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com
To: everything-list everything-list@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tue, Mar 31, 2015 9:35 am
Subject: Re: Life in the Islamic State for women

2015-03-31 12:11 GMT+02:00 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com: 

On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 11:52 AM, Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote:

2015-03-31 10:37 GMT+02:00 Telmo Menezes te...@telmomenezes.com:

On Tue, Mar 31, 2015 at 6:23 AM, Russell Standish li...@hpcoders.com.au wrote:

On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 07:04:10AM -0400, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
 Well, its not the new jihadists I blame, but the (yes) leftist academics, 
 politicians, and news thugs, that have long, empowered, and made excuses for 
 these aggressors. My suspicion is that they see the jihadists worldwide as 
 being able to topple their shared capitalist enemies.  Why else would 
 somebody make excuses, constantly, for jihadists, islamists, and their 
 antidemocratic mindset, anti women, and so forth? The left in all lands serve 
 as the Islamist enablers, and some are billionaires who lean left. Yeah, I 
 know this is divisive, but it's sadly, accurate. Maybe, you left voters could 
 start to vote for nationalist politicians in your countries as a push-back 
 against the jihadist-catering pols, academics, and newsies? You could still 
 be for social justice and spend for it, but coddling the islamists by word 
 and deed would need to be suppressed. They do like modern weaponry, delivered 
 into their hands by allah, to use against the Qufars (all of us). This now 
 includes NBC weapons.

In which country are the lefties apologists for jihadists and 
islamists? 

It is fairly common in Europe. 

Hi Quentin, 

First of all, I don't agree with any of the stuff spudboy wrote, except for 
this detail. The right-wing in Europe is rather terrible and I have no sympathy 
for their xenophobic inclinations. 

Which countries in

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