Re: Sane2004 Step One

2012-09-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 06 Sep 2012, at 20:44, meekerdb wrote: On 9/6/2012 11:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Consciousness does not arise. It is not in space, nor in time. Its local content, obtained by differentiation, internally can refer to time and space, Even if it is not *in* spacetime, my consciousness

Re: The All

2012-09-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 06 Sep 2012, at 21:03, meekerdb wrote: On 9/6/2012 11:52 AM, Brian Tenneson wrote: A too much powerful God leads to inconsistency. What if reality does not always obey the laws of logic? What if reality is sometimes inconsistent? This is a confusion of levels. Logic is rules

Re: Sane2004 Step One

2012-09-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 06 Sep 2012, at 21:25, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, September 6, 2012 2:02:02 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Sep 2012, at 17:27, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, September 5, 2012 10:50:02 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Sep 2012, at 03:48, Craig Weinberg

Re: Sane2004 Step One

2012-09-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 07 Sep 2012, at 04:20, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/6/2012 1:44 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Sep 2012, at 08:38, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/5/2012 2:03 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/4/2012 10:07 PM, Stephen P. King wrote: On 9/5/2012 12:38 AM, meekerdb wrote: On 9/4/2012 8:59 PM,

Re: Where do numbers and geometry come from ?

2012-09-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 06 Sep 2012, at 16:28, Brian Tenneson wrote: All numbers can be defined in terms of sets. The question becomes this: do sets have ontological primacy relative to mankind or are sets invented or created by mankind? I would say invented, as many different notion of sets can exist. You

Re: Why the Church-Turing thesis?

2012-09-07 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 28 Aug 2012, at 21:57, benjayk wrote: It seems that the Church-Turing thesis, that states that an universal turing machine can compute everything that is intuitively computable, has near universal acceptance among computer scientists. Yes indeed. I think there are two strong

Re: The All

2012-09-07 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 06.09.2012 21:03 meekerdb said the following: On 9/6/2012 11:52 AM, Brian Tenneson wrote: A too much powerful God leads to inconsistency. What if reality does not always obey the laws of logic? What if reality is sometimes inconsistent? This is a confusion of levels. Logic is rules

Re: Why the Church-Turing thesis?

2012-09-07 Thread benjayk
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Aug 2012, at 21:57, benjayk wrote: It seems that the Church-Turing thesis, that states that an universal turing machine can compute everything that is intuitively computable, has near universal acceptance among computer scientists. Yes indeed. I

The physical and the mental

2012-09-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Evgenii Rudnyi Leibniz divides the world into physical and mental states, each a reflection of the other. The mental is mental and the physical is not an illusion. You canstill stub your toe on a rock. This philosophy is called Idealism.

A leibnizian argument that necessary truths would seem to be a priori

2012-09-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Brian Tenneson Whether or not sets were there (true) a priori is a subject of debate. You might want to see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_mathematics My own (uninformed) view is based on Leibnizian thinking. He lists two kinds oif logic, necessary or rational logic, which is

Rational vs experiential religion

2012-09-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal The rational view of God can be discussed logically and publicly, such as in the philosophy of religion. But according to Christian (especially Lutheran) tradition, that is only a description of God. There is also a Living God (also called the Word, or the Christ) that can

Can experiences be teleported ?

2012-09-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal Eventually you will have to answer the question of what is teleportable. I have no doubt that someday matter can be transported, even information. Even energy. But the more important question to me is whether or not experiences (the stuff of life or consciousness) can be

Re: Why the Church-Turing thesis?

2012-09-07 Thread benjayk
Jason Resch-2 wrote: On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 12:47 PM, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.comwrote: Jason Resch-2 wrote: On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 2:57 PM, benjayk benjamin.jaku...@googlemail.comwrote: It seems that the Church-Turing thesis, that states that an universal

Re: being conscious in a completely atemporal mode

2012-09-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/7/2012 2:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: It is a recent suggestion, corroborated by the salvia reports and experiences. I was used to agree with Brouwer that consciousness and subjective time are not separable, like the 1p logic examplifies (S4Grz is both a temporal logic, and the machine's

Life forces, intentions, goals and final ends as opposed to mechanics

2012-09-07 Thread Roger Clough
An intention is a desire in the form of thought, so is nonphysical, as are all of the processes of mind. In Leibniz's philosophy, intentions are essentially what L calls appetites in monads. They are goal-directed, following what Aristotle called end causation, which are potential, pulling

The rational must be a priori and the contingent (factual) must be a posteriori

2012-09-07 Thread Roger Clough
According to my argument below, all rational truths must be a priori and all contingent truths (facts) have to be a posteriori. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/7/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the

Re: The All

2012-09-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/7/2012 4:11 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 06.09.2012 21:03 meekerdb said the following: On 9/6/2012 11:52 AM, Brian Tenneson wrote: A too much powerful God leads to inconsistency. What if reality does not always obey the laws of logic? What if reality is sometimes inconsistent?

Re: The Unprivacy of Information

2012-09-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Craig Weinberg Although I don't follow Dawking's views on life and God, I think his idea of semes, which are like genes but ideas instead, is a very good one. If the logic follows through, then man is the semes' way of propagating itself through society. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net

Re: Why the Church-Turing thesis?

2012-09-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/7/2012 6:24 AM, benjayk wrote: Why are two machines that can be used to emlate each other regarded to be equivalent? In my view, there is a big difference between computing the same and being able to emulate each other. Most importantly, emulation only makes sense relative to another

Re: Re: The All

2012-09-07 Thread Roger Clough
A too much powerful God leads to inconsistency. All-powerful does not mean unlawful. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/7/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: meekerdb

Re: Simple proof that our intelligence transcends that of computers

2012-09-07 Thread benjayk
You always refer to studying some paper, even though the paper actually doesn't even begin to adress the question. How am I supposed to argue with that? There is no point of studying Gödel if we have a false assumption about what the proof even is about. It is never, at no point, about numbers

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-09-07 Thread benjayk
Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Sep 2012, at 13:31, benjayk wrote: Quantum effects beyond individual brains (suggested by psi) can't be computed as well: No matter what I compute in my brain, this doesn't entangle it with other brains since computation is classical. The UD emulates all

Leibniz's universes as perceived

2012-09-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King There is only one physical world, but only the supreme monad (supremem in the mental world) sees all and sees all as it it is, clearly and wholly. The individual point of view of the phjysical world that each monad indirectly perceives is called the phenomenological

Re: Re: Why a bacterium has more intelligence than a computer

2012-09-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King I think of the brain as a running sensor of the static platonic world. Sort of like looking out of the car window as you speed along. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/7/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function.

Re: Re: The universe as a collection of an infinite number of pointscalled monads

2012-09-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King I solved this problem my own way by simply asssuming that the universe from the beginning and before, as well as now and forever, exists as an infinite collection of points (monads). So no problem with the creation of new things. In principle they always were and simply grow

The poverty of computers

2012-09-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stephen P. King No, machines, even computers, IMHO in practice have no intellectual or feeling facilities, are no more than dumb rocks. So there is no more communication with God possible than there would be with an abacus. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/7/2012 Leibniz would say, If

Re: Re: Leibniz on heaven, hell, and zombies (?)

2012-09-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Stathis Papaioannou Thanks for the correction. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/7/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Stathis Papaioannou Receiver: everything-list

This is a world only of facts.

2012-09-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Brian Tenneson According to Leibniz, there are two kinds of logic, the logic of necessity or rational logic, and the logic of contingency or of facts. Reality is contingent, to use Leibniz's idea. Things may be true sometimes and at some places, but never everywhere, at all times. It's an a

Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-09-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal Any time I use the word God, I always mean IMHO God. I am actually thinking instead of Cosmic Intelligence or Cosmnic Mind. I try not to use that word (God) but sometimes forget. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/7/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to

Racism ? How's that implied ?

2012-09-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal Racism ? How's that implied ? But I do agree that perception and Cs are not understandable with materialistic concepts at least as they are commonly used. Instead they are what the mind can sense, as a sixth sense. The mind is similar to driving a car through Platoville and

Re: Re: Where do numbers and geometry come from ?

2012-09-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal What is always either true or false cannot have been invented, only discovered. Necessary or rational truths are such. Contingent truths are not. Rational or necessary truths are therefore a prioi and can only be discovered. Contingent truths or facts are therefore a

Re: Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-09-07 Thread Roger Clough
Hi Bruno Marchal What is UD ? Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 9/7/2012 Leibniz would say, If there's no God, we'd have to invent him so that everything could function. - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-09-06, 15:56:55

Re: Where do numbers and geometry come from ?

2012-09-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/7/2012 7:21 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I believe that what is necessarily true (rationally true) had to be always true and thus a priori. Dear Roger, But this is just a matter of definition. It remains to be explained how the necessity is achived and how it is so in

Brains and time, subjectivity vs objectivity

2012-09-07 Thread Roger Clough
Theres is some duplication in the propositions below which I have not bothered to clear up, sorry. 1) Mind, being inextended, is outside of the brain, which is extended. Mind (shared and the general, Platonia) is the subjective realm. Brain (personal, private, the particular,

Re: Why a bacterium has more intelligence than a computer

2012-09-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/7/2012 8:26 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King I think of the brain as a running sensor of the static platonic world. Sort of like looking out of the car window as you speed along. Hi Roger, How would this be different, from the point of view of the driver, if it is the Car that

A Sherlock Holmes computer

2012-09-07 Thread Roger Clough
There is a quote by Sherlock Holmes that suggests a way to possibly filter out solid truth from a comp (?) List all of the possibilities or possible solutions. Then remove all from that list that are impossible (now or ever, I would add). Whatever is left over is the (rational or necesssary)

Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-07 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: The pyramids made Egyptian civilization immortal. Do you know the names of the Indus Valley rulers? Sumerians? Maybe, but they don't have quite the ring of Tutankhamen, or Ramses II, eh? The following short scholarly video

Re: Sane2004 Step One

2012-09-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/7/2012 3:09 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Sep 2012, at 21:25, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Thursday, September 6, 2012 2:02:02 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 05 Sep 2012, at 17:27, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Wednesday, September 5, 2012 10:50:02 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal

Re: The poverty of computers

2012-09-07 Thread Roberto Szabo
Hi Roger, Brains some years ago had no intellectual or feeling facilities too. It came by evolution. Roberto Szabo 2012/9/7 Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net Hi Stephen P. King No, machines, even computers, IMHO in practice have no intellectual or feeling facilities, are no more than dumb

Re: The universe as a collection of an infinite number of pointscalledmonads

2012-09-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/7/2012 10:43 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King As I see it, if there is an infinite collection of (monadic) points, all future things foreseen (as in pre-established harmony) then nothing new can ever be created or destroyed, things (including thoughts and people) just blossom

Re: Sane2004 Step One

2012-09-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/7/2012 2:41 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 06 Sep 2012, at 20:44, meekerdb wrote: On 9/6/2012 11:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Consciousness does not arise. It is not in space, nor in time. Its local content, obtained by differentiation, internally can refer to time and space, Even if it

Re: The poverty of computers

2012-09-07 Thread John Clark
On Fri, Sep 7 2012, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: machines, even computers, IMHO in practice have no intellectual or feeling facilities, are no more than dumb rocks. Computers may or may not have feelings but that is of no concern to us, if they don't it's their problem not ours;

Re: The All

2012-09-07 Thread Evgenii Rudnyi
On 07.09.2012 13:43 Stephen P. King said the following: On 9/7/2012 4:11 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 06.09.2012 21:03 meekerdb said the following: On 9/6/2012 11:52 AM, Brian Tenneson wrote: A too much powerful God leads to inconsistency. What if reality does not always obey the laws of

Re: The All

2012-09-07 Thread meekerdb
On 9/7/2012 1:11 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 06.09.2012 21:03 meekerdb said the following: On 9/6/2012 11:52 AM, Brian Tenneson wrote: A too much powerful God leads to inconsistency. What if reality does not always obey the laws of logic? What if reality is sometimes inconsistent?

Re: There is no such thing as cause and effect

2012-09-07 Thread John Mikes
Brent, I believe there is a difference between (adj) 'fair' or 'unjust' and the (noun) 'fairness', or 'consciousness'. While the nouns (IMO) are not adequately identified the adverbs refer to the applied system of correspondence. E.g.: Fair to the unjust system. (I don't think we may use the

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-09-07 Thread John Clark
On Tue, Sep 4, 2012 at 1:10 PM, William R. Buckley bill.buck...@gmail.comwrote: While at any moment the tape may be finite, that it can at need grow is the fundamental notion of infinite. No, the fundamental notion of the infinite is that you can make a one to one correspondence with a proper

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-09-07 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Sep 5, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: when God asks Himself the question Why have I always existed, why haven't I always not existed? what answer in his omniscience does He come up with? The neoplatonist conception of God does not allow It to ask such a

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-09-07 Thread John Clark
On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I was addressing John Clark, who confirmed my feeling that atheists are the number one defender of the Christian's conception of God. OK I see the error of my ways and now believe that God exists. Incidentally when I went

Re: Two reasons why computers IMHO cannot exhibit intelligence

2012-09-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/7/2012 4:10 PM, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 1:21 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be mailto:marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: I was addressing John Clark, who confirmed my feeling that atheists are the number one defender of the Christian's conception of God. OK I see

Re: The All

2012-09-07 Thread Stephen P. King
On 9/7/2012 2:03 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 07.09.2012 13:43 Stephen P. King said the following: On 9/7/2012 4:11 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 06.09.2012 21:03 meekerdb said the following: On 9/6/2012 11:52 AM, Brian Tenneson wrote: A too much powerful God leads to inconsistency. What

Re: prime numbers etc

2012-09-07 Thread John Mikes
Touche. But I don't believe (in?) it - I am agnostic. Nonbeliever. (SONG: I lost my turf in San Francisco) J On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 10:36 PM, Stathis Papaioannou stath...@gmail.comwrote: On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 8:07 AM, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Stathis wrote (to Craig): But you

Re: Re: The All

2012-09-07 Thread Jason Resch
On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 8:12 AM, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal IMHO computers cannot think, although they can appear to think. If they could think, they should be able to b) construct a language that only another computer can understand. In a sense, this is

Computing with water droplets

2012-09-07 Thread meekerdb
An amusing example of computation --- http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/09/120907082027.htm Towards Computing With Water Droplets: Superhydrophobic Droplet Logic ScienceDaily (Sep. 7, 2012) ? Researchers in Aalto University have developed a new concept for computing, using water

Re: The poverty of computers

2012-09-07 Thread Jason Resch
On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 12:12 PM, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Sep 7 2012, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: machines, even computers, IMHO in practice have no intellectual or feeling facilities, are no more than dumb rocks. Computers may or may not have feelings

Re: The poverty of computers

2012-09-07 Thread meekerdb
On 9/7/2012 8:43 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Platonism (or mathematical realism) is the majority viewpoint of modern mathematicians. In a survey of mathematicians I know it is an even division. Of course they are all methodological Platonists, but not necessarily philosophical ones.

Re: The poverty of computers

2012-09-07 Thread Jason Resch
Brent, Thanks for your reply. On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 11:19 PM, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 9/7/2012 8:43 PM, Jason Resch wrote: Platonism (or mathematical realism) is the majority viewpoint of modern mathematicians. In a survey of mathematicians I know it is an even division.