date:20130614

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 7:14 AM, Helen wrote:

> My agent sends a jpg of the card she plans to mail out, asking me to edit.
> I edit, save to jpg becasue tha's what she wants, and it has now disappeared
> off my screen.

Why did it disappear off your screen? Why do you reopen it?

> This new requirement that I keep exporting and re-opening jpg files

Helen, there is no such requirement. You absolutely don't need to
reopen anything.

When you export a file to JPEG from GIMP, you get the same dialog with
a checkbox that lets you preview how quality setting affects the final
image.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 6:34 AM, Helen wrote:
> Andrew & Bridget
> A remark such as "if you don't like it, don't use it"  is rude and
> unhelpful, and such remarks
> should never appear on this list.   I've stayed out of the discussion of
> this regression -- I hate the
> change to-- but I appeal for courtesy to those who care enough to try to
> communicate the
> problems this is causing.  And it is causing so many problems for me that
> I'm wondering if it's
> going to be a game breaker.  I work with agents for my art galleries.  One
> of my agents wants
> everything sent as jpeg so I send her what she wants.   One wants .tif so I
> send her what she
> wants.  Juried exhibits ask for jpeg (I don't know why)  but this change
> adds hours  to a job
> that should take me half an hour.

Helen,

That doesn't sound right.

What does workflow look like?

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

2013-06-14 Thread Helen

> So you're saying that thinking of The Gimp as an image editing program is
>> > wrong then, it need to be primarily regarded as a project based
>> compositing
>> > program ?
>>
>> That is what we've been saying for the past 7 years.
>>
>
> GIMP=  Gnu Image Manipulation Program.
>
> Right?
>



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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

2013-06-14 Thread Helen

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:57 PM, Helen  wrote:

> Ron said:
> Since Linux is all in favour of freedom of choice, how about offering the
> user an export / save choice in the Preferences dialogues ?
>

I wish to endorse this. The export feature could have been added without
disabling the save as feature.  And I, also, have tried to go back
to gimp 2.6, but now that I have upgraded to suse 12.3,  gimp 2.6 will not
work with the latest suse gtk
Helen


>
>
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 1:21 PM, Renaud OLGIATI <
> ren...@olgiati-in-paraguay.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 14:28:31 +0200
>> "Uniklaps"  wrote:
>>
>> > When you open a jpg-file in GIMP 2.8 and make changes and save this
>> again
>> > as jpg, you cannot re-change the changes you made (if file is closed).
>> If
>> > changes are not necessary, GIMP can save as tif or jpg. (But are you
>> always
>> > sure, that your work is perfect?)
>> > Saving the jpg you worked with as an GIMP xcf-file you can open it
>> again and
>> > continue your work or go back to changes you made. With an jpg this is
>> not
>> > possible. But: You should be familiar to the GIMP - feature "layers"
>>
>> Let us put it this way: If I thought I might want to undo/modify changes
>> later, I would Save As (or Save As Copy) in .xcf; but when I load a .jpg,
>> work on it, and Save, I know that I wont be able to undo changes, and I
>> expect the saved file to replace the original one, not to have the original
>> left untouched and something completely different saved.
>>
>> Andrew & Bridget  wrote:
>>
>> > Just because a program does not perform the way you would like it to,
>> doesn't make it an inferior program.
>>
>> No, but it makes it more difficult, and less appealing, to use.
>>
>> > As it has been said before if you don't like it, use something else, no
>> body makes you use GIMP.
>>
>> I like GIMP, have liked it for fourteen years; I just dont like GIMP 2.8,
>>
>> Alexandre Prokoudine  wrote:
>>
>> > > - If not, what is the latest release of GIMP that behaved in the old
>> (and intuitive) way, so I can go back to that version ?
>>
>> > 2.6.11
>>
>> I will be now be looking for the 2.6.11 package since you kindly tols me
>> it is free from that export/save sillyness.
>>
>> radar.ma...@free.fr wrote:
>>
>> > but if Gimp is made easier and safer for most of people, let's trust
>> our contributors.
>>
>> Since Linux is all in favour of freedom of choice, how about offering the
>> user an export / save choice in the Preferences dialogues ?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Ron.
>> --
>>Il est dangereux d'avoir raison dans des choses
>>où des hommes accrédités ont tort.
>>-- Voltaire
>>
>>-- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
>>
>>
>> ___
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Helen Etters
> using Linux, suse12.3
>



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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

2013-06-14 Thread Helen

Andrew & Bridget
A remark such as "if you don't like it, don't use it"  is rude and
unhelpful, and such remarks
should never appear on this list.   I've stayed out of the discussion of
this regression -- I hate the
change to-- but I appeal for courtesy to those who care enough to try to
communicate the
problems this is causing.  And it is causing so many problems for me that
I'm wondering if it's
going to be a game breaker.  I work with agents for my art galleries.  One
of my agents wants
everything sent as jpeg so I send her what she wants.   One wants .tif so I
send her what she
wants.  Juried exhibits ask for jpeg (I don't know why)  but this change
adds hours  to a job
that should take me half an hour.
Helen




>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 12:26 PM, Andrew & Bridget <
> andrew_brid...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> Just because a program does not perform the way you would like it to,
>> doesn't make it an inferior program. GIMP is a very powerful Image Editing
>> program that thousands of people use day to day. For every one that states
>> in this forum that it is a regression there is probably as many that like
>> the new behavior that don't post. As it has been said before if you don't
>> like it, use something else, no body makes you use GIMP.
>>
>>
>> On 14/06/2013 17:03, Crew wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>  In case you are not just phishing (which is unlikely, as there are
 several such emails posted recently:-)

>>> Given the way Adobe are moving to a subscription model, there are going
>>> to be a lot of new users like myself seriously looking at The Gimp in
>>> future.
>>> The recent addition of colour management finally moved The Gimp into the
>>> realms of being worthy of serious consideration, but trying to make it some
>>> sort of exclusive package that works with it's own file formats is just
>>> daft.
>>> If you can drag and drop an image into the program it should by default
>>> save back to the same format. Everything other program works that way,
>>> changing that protocol is unintuitive and just daft.
>>>
>>> If the discussion has had thousands of comments in the past it's pretty
>>> clear it's at least contentious.
>>>
>>> Do the developers of The Gimp want it to be taken seriously ?, or will
>>> they be happy just making something non-standard that will make them look
>>> foolish. As a potential new user that's how it's looking to me.
>>>
>>>  You're wrong!
>
> The problem is NOT a lack of conventional Save command, rather a lack
> of conventional Import command!
>
> The program "opens" non-native files! That should not happen! It
> should import them so you are fully aware that you need to export to a
> non-native format.
>

 Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP

>>> Sorry, I was mistaking The Gimp for a sensible image editing program.
>>>
>>> If this is the sort of advice given out to new users I can see why The
>>> Gimp is regarded so poorly by imaging professionals.
>>>
>>> Paul Holman
>>> www.colourprofiles.com
>>> __**_
>>> gimp-user-list mailing list
>>> gimp-user-list@gnome.org
>>> https://mail.gnome.org/**mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-**list
>>>
>>
>> __**_
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>> https://mail.gnome.org/**mailman/listinfo/gimp-user-**list
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Helen Etters
> using Linux, suse12.3
>



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Re: [Gimp-user] Re;

2013-06-14 Thread Joseph A. Nagy, Jr


On 06/14/13 20:46, Joyce wrote:

Thank you for the help yesterday – it worked and I am learning.   I
do need more help; I have my second layer positioned correctly using
the opacity.  However, I can not erase the surrounding unwanted area.
The eraser either leaves a color in the area or turned it to the grey
and white squares.  I have watched tutorials again and again, but can
not seem to fix this.  Thank you for a response.

MAGS


The 'grey and white squares' are the workspace underneath the layer, if 
you can see them, then you have made that section of the layer transparent.


--
Yours in Christ,

Joseph A Nagy Jr
"Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, But he who hates correction
is stupid." -- Proverbs 12:1
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[Gimp-user] Re;

2013-06-14 Thread Joyce

Thank you for the help yesterday – it worked and I am learning.   I do need 
more help; I have my second layer positioned correctly using the opacity.  
However, I can not erase the surrounding unwanted area.  The eraser either 
leaves a color in the area or turned it to the grey and white squares.  I have 
watched tutorials again and again, but can not seem to fix this.  Thank you for 
a response.

MAGS
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Re: [Gimp-user] Creating image from webpage

2013-06-14 Thread Partha Bagchi

Just did the same with my build. Opened Webpages just fine.



On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 6:28 PM, Tom Williams  wrote:

> On 06/10/2013 09:31 AM, Bettina K. Lechner wrote:
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > I tried to load an image of a webpage in GIMP by using File > Create >
> > from Webpage. But it doesn't work.
> >
> > And it seems I am not alone:
> > http://gimpchat.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5920
> >
> > (same here: no matter which page I try to load I get just a grey lng
> > "empty" picture)
> >
> > I am using GIMP 2.8.4 under Win8.
> >
> > In my Mac-Version the command is not even there.
> >
> > Are there plans to "repair" this? Or does it work in your versions?
> >
> >
> > Thanks
> > Tina
> >
> Wow, I didn't even know this functionality existed!  :)  I just tried it
> on Ubuntu 13.04 Linux (64-bit) with GIMP 2.8.4 and I was able to load
> www.gimp.org just fine and www.apple.com just fine.  www.thx.com didn't
> load at all, for whatever reason.  In the thread you cited, another
> Windows user did indicate the function worked for them (post #9).  Since
> they are using an older version of GIMP, maybe something regressed.
>
> Peace...
>
> Tom
>
> --
> /When we dance, you have a way with me,
> Stay with me... Sway with me.../
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 1:12 AM, Crew wrote:

>> is the choice for Win/Mac and proprietary software an informed
>> one?
>
> Yes.

Wrong answer. See below.

> You might not like the information they made their choices on, but it's
> not entirely random.

Finally you made a statement that makes some sort of sense :) Again, see below.

>> In a world where people still think that GIMP is a strictly
>> multiwindow application and there's no color management on Linux, are
>> you, Paul Holman, owner (?) ofwww.colourprofiles.com, prepared to
>>
>> testify that you personally interviewed each of your clients and each
>> visitor of those said forums, and as the result of that study you
>> found out that yes indeed -- all of them are informed about their
>> options on Linux, more or less follow the progress of GIMP and
>> darktable, but simply don't find them good enough?
>>
>> A simple 'yes' or 'no' would suffice.
>
> No. As I said, all I ask is what OS they use to provide installation
> instructions. That tells me what software they actually use, not why or how
> they arrived at that choice it's not relevant to the information I need.

So you don't know why they made their decisions, but you nevertheless
claim that the decisions were informed. That's pretty amazing. How can
you make this kind of statement and still feel like a rational,
intelligent human being?

Now, allow me to explain what's wrong with your approach.

There's this widely popular claim that a great product sells itself.
While there is some truth to it, in reality markets don't work like
that.

If you study some trendy market like, um, let's say, mobile apps,
you'll see that for many categories it's close to impossible to get
anywhere near TOP10 with a new product. You've got to have something
truly outstanding that goes viral. And you have to be able to maintain
public's interest -- that's an important bit, you'll see in a while.

If you study the online advertizing market (which is my professional
background), you'll see pretty much the same picture: you can't
suddenly become competitive against e.g. big retailers. You need to
find a different way to get to your audience, and it still takes time,
money, and human resources.

But let's get back to our niche. Case in point: there's a number of
advanced image editors like Photoline (http://www.pl32.com/) that have
all those fancy things like high bit depth precision, CMYK, vector
layers and suchlike. But they never have a wide adoption. Why?

- Is that software unusable?
- Maybe more expensive than Photoshop?
- Or the developers are so arrogant that they annoy their users? :)

Nope. While features, social aptness etc. have a share in the general
effect, at some point it's marketing that becomes decisive.

Here's an example:

http://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=mypaint#q=mypaint&cmpt=q

See that first spike around August 2009 after which the public's
interest towards that free painting application started rapidly
growing? Here's the reason:

http://www.sintel.org/videos/tutorial-painting-time-lapse-by-david-revoy/

Blender Foundation's open movie projects typically draw a lot of
interest, so the video demonstrating MyPaint (used along with Alchemy
and GIMP) went viral.

Take another look at that graph. You'll see another huge spike in
Nov-Dec 2011. Here's the reason:

http://mypaint.intilinux.com/?p=621

v1.0 releases are traditionaly regarded as a symbol of software
becoming mature. So MyPaint 1.0 got quite a few coverages online which
ensured that interest spike. Not mentioning a bunch of useful features
in that release.

Now, why are those spikes so spiky? Why is all that interest so rapidly lost?

Is MyPaint a horrible software, and the interest is accidental with a
bit of vapourware flavour? No, people make quite amazing artworks with
MyPaint, and it doesn't more time than in, er, conventional software.
So how come?

The reason is that the community isn't yet capable of producing those
amazing artworks _every day_ in an amount that would stand anywhere
close to the amount of artworks people create with Photoshop or Corel
Painter.

Free software projects do not have huge marketing teams (up to 50% of
employees in some cases, I'm not kidding you). They don't have the
funds to hire artists, do roadshows etc. Bottomline: they cannot
ensure stable visibility online.

A huge percent of Blender's success can be attributed to websites like
blendernation.com, blenderguru.com and blendercookie.com whose
maintainers had either the guts or the funds to maintain that interest
towards the software. And yet there's still plenty of 3D artists who
never even tried Blender, while having heard all sorts of good things
about that. A lot of those people only found out about it, because
websites like 3DMag occasionally post artworks made with Blender --
like 4-5 times a year.

Still with me? (I'd be surprised, but stranger things happen.)

I spend up to 20 hours weekly just looking through artworks people do
with

Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

2013-06-14 Thread Kasim Ahmic

Like Tom, the change from Save to Export was a bit of a surprise to me as well. 
Over time, I got used to it. Once you think about it, it actually makes more 
sense to use this method than it does the previous method.

Just my two cents :)


p.s. People should really stop arguing about this. It has been discussed many 
times before, and has always yielded the same outcome; the change will remain 
and you'll just have to get used to it. 

Sent from my iPod

On Jun 14, 2013, at 6:38 PM, Tom Williams  wrote:

> On 06/14/2013 02:47 PM, Eduard Braun wrote:
>> Actually I know nobody who likes the new distinction between save and
>> export.
>> 
>> But the whole discussion seems to be at a point of no return anyway
>> and developers seem to defend the change as a matter of principle
>> rather than aiming for maximum usability, so it seems quite improbable
>> anything will change.
> 
> Hey Eduard, I'm Tom and it's a pleasure to meet you!  :)
> 
> I've been a long time GIMP user and the new save/export behavior was a
> surprise to me as well, but I actually like the new behavior since I
> tend to save in XCF format more frequently, which prevents me from
> making accidental mistakes.  In the past, I would open an image file,
> forget to save it as a XCF file first, make some changes to it, save the
> file (either clobbering the original or saving it as a new file), and
> then later regret NOT saving to XCF format because I would want to make
> further modifications later or to find out which font I had used, if I
> added text, etc.
> 
> The new behavior forces me to be more conscious about my saving action,
> which I think is a good thing.  I also agree with adding a setting to
> control the save behavior, so users can choose which method suits them best.
> 
> With regard to all the discussion about "Linux" in all this, we can't
> forget the numbers of people who use GIMP on Windows and the "Freedom of
> Linux" doesn't relate to that platform. 
> 
> As for Audacity, I'm running Audacity 2.0.3 on Ubuntu 13.04 Linux
> (64-bit) right now. I have a MP3 audio file loaded and when I click the
> "File" menu, the save options are "Save Project", "Save Project As", and
> "Save Compressed Copy of Project".  Then, I have two Export options,
> "Export" and "Export Multiple".  I made a change to the audio track and
> tried to close Audacity and it prompted me to save the project (.AUP)
> file and stated if I wanted to save in another audio format, I must use
> the "File > Export" function.  Maybe Audacity on Windows behaves
> differently.
> 
> Peace...
> 
> Tom
> 
> -- 
> /When we dance, you have a way with me,
> Stay with me... Sway with me.../
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

2013-06-14 Thread Tom Williams

On 06/14/2013 02:47 PM, Eduard Braun wrote:
> Actually I know nobody who likes the new distinction between save and
> export.
>
> But the whole discussion seems to be at a point of no return anyway
> and developers seem to defend the change as a matter of principle
> rather than aiming for maximum usability, so it seems quite improbable
> anything will change.

Hey Eduard, I'm Tom and it's a pleasure to meet you!  :)

I've been a long time GIMP user and the new save/export behavior was a
surprise to me as well, but I actually like the new behavior since I
tend to save in XCF format more frequently, which prevents me from
making accidental mistakes.  In the past, I would open an image file,
forget to save it as a XCF file first, make some changes to it, save the
file (either clobbering the original or saving it as a new file), and
then later regret NOT saving to XCF format because I would want to make
further modifications later or to find out which font I had used, if I
added text, etc.

The new behavior forces me to be more conscious about my saving action,
which I think is a good thing.  I also agree with adding a setting to
control the save behavior, so users can choose which method suits them best.

With regard to all the discussion about "Linux" in all this, we can't
forget the numbers of people who use GIMP on Windows and the "Freedom of
Linux" doesn't relate to that platform. 

As for Audacity, I'm running Audacity 2.0.3 on Ubuntu 13.04 Linux
(64-bit) right now. I have a MP3 audio file loaded and when I click the
"File" menu, the save options are "Save Project", "Save Project As", and
"Save Compressed Copy of Project".  Then, I have two Export options,
"Export" and "Export Multiple".  I made a change to the audio track and
tried to close Audacity and it prompted me to save the project (.AUP)
file and stated if I wanted to save in another audio format, I must use
the "File > Export" function.  Maybe Audacity on Windows behaves
differently.

Peace...

Tom

-- 
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Stay with me... Sway with me.../
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

2013-06-14 Thread Psiweapon

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 12:16 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 2:09 AM, Psiweapon wrote:
>
> >> > I'm not saying this guy is right, but your "holier than thou"
> attitude is
> >> > corrosive and self-satisfied.
> >>
> >> Oh, not holier :) Just smarter. And I can prove that.
> >>
> >>
> > Are you sure? I'm not saying you're not, but you'd need *his *credentials
> > too to prove that.
>
> Yeah, I'm working on that :)
>

Now that sounds horribly underhanded.

>
> > Oh, and being smarter doesn't make you a better person. Your smarter than
> > you is still corrosive and self-satisfied.
>
> You see, I never claimed to be a good person. I'm not even remotely
> interested in looking like one.
>
>
Your lack of interest and claim on the issue doesn't make it any less of a
shortcoming.

Hey, wait. I *am* acting holier than thou. My apologies :X

So. You only take feedback from the elite? Honest question.

I can understand that the extent of the *undying backlash* is probably a
pain in the ass,
although I wouldn't be surprised AT ALL if it was completely beneath you...

You just come across as some sort of self-appointed boyar, which I'd expect
from a
mainstream software corporate honcho - not from an open software big fish.

*"It's too bad I can't force quit a list thread like I can processes.  At
any
rate this discussion is stale.  Quit the whimpering and Alexandre enough of
the attitude."*

Okay. I'll shut up now.

> Alexandre Prokoudine
> http://libregraphicsworld.org
>
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Re: [Gimp-user] Creating image from webpage

2013-06-14 Thread Tom Williams

On 06/10/2013 09:31 AM, Bettina K. Lechner wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I tried to load an image of a webpage in GIMP by using File > Create >
> from Webpage. But it doesn't work.
>
> And it seems I am not alone:
> http://gimpchat.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5920
>
> (same here: no matter which page I try to load I get just a grey lng
> "empty" picture)
>
> I am using GIMP 2.8.4 under Win8.
>
> In my Mac-Version the command is not even there.
>
> Are there plans to "repair" this? Or does it work in your versions?
>
>
> Thanks
> Tina
>
Wow, I didn't even know this functionality existed!  :)  I just tried it
on Ubuntu 13.04 Linux (64-bit) with GIMP 2.8.4 and I was able to load
www.gimp.org just fine and www.apple.com just fine.  www.thx.com didn't
load at all, for whatever reason.  In the thread you cited, another
Windows user did indicate the function worked for them (post #9).  Since
they are using an older version of GIMP, maybe something regressed.

Peace...

Tom

-- 
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Stay with me... Sway with me.../
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

2013-06-14 Thread Sam Gleske

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> > Oh, and being smarter doesn't make you a better person. Your smarter than
> > you is still corrosive and self-satisfied.
>
> You see, I never claimed to be a good person. I'm not even remotely
> interested in looking like one.
>
> Alexandre Prokoudine
>

It's too bad I can't force quit a list thread like I can processes.  At any
rate this discussion is stale.  Quit the whimpering and Alexandre enough of
the attitude.

SAM
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 2:09 AM, Psiweapon wrote:

>> > I'm not saying this guy is right, but your "holier than thou" attitude is
>> > corrosive and self-satisfied.
>>
>> Oh, not holier :) Just smarter. And I can prove that.
>>
>>
> Are you sure? I'm not saying you're not, but you'd need *his *credentials
> too to prove that.

Yeah, I'm working on that :)

> Oh, and being smarter doesn't make you a better person. Your smarter than
> you is still corrosive and self-satisfied.

You see, I never claimed to be a good person. I'm not even remotely
interested in looking like one.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

2013-06-14 Thread Psiweapon

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 12:02 AM, Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 1:55 AM, Psiweapon wrote:
>
> > Excuse me, Alexandre,  but you're being DISMISSIVE AS HELL here.
>
> Yes, I am.
>
> > I'm not saying this guy is right, but your "holier than thou" attitude is
> > corrosive and self-satisfied.
>
> Oh, not holier :) Just smarter. And I can prove that.
>
>
Are you sure? I'm not saying you're not, but you'd need *his *credentials
too to prove that.

Oh, and being smarter doesn't make you a better person. Your smarter than
you is still corrosive and self-satisfied.


> Alexandre Prokoudine
> http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 1:55 AM, Psiweapon wrote:

> Excuse me, Alexandre,  but you're being DISMISSIVE AS HELL here.

Yes, I am.

> I'm not saying this guy is right, but your "holier than thou" attitude is
> corrosive and self-satisfied.

Oh, not holier :) Just smarter. And I can prove that.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

2013-06-14 Thread Psiweapon

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 8:47 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:20 PM, Crew wrote:
> > On 14/06/2013 19:06, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
> >>
> >> As a Linux user, I don't have tons of image editors to try. But hey,
> >> I'm quite ready to believe that most of them are doing it wrong:)
> >
> >
> > Right I see now.
> > "I write for Linux I don't need to conform to user requirements, I know
> > better"
>
> You are not users, Paul. You are a user. Singular noun, not a plural noun.
>

Excuse me, Alexandre,  but you're being DISMISSIVE AS HELL here.

No matter how big your love for the project, swashbuckling rethoric, and
your own ego,
saying "You're just an user, not users" when people disagree with you by
the bucketload,
dismissing someone because "oh you're just one!" is called BEING ARROGANT.

ARROGANT.

ARROGANT.

ARROGANT.

I know typing it three more times won't allow you to wrap your head around
it, but what
the hell.

I'm not saying this guy is right, but your "holier than thou" attitude is
corrosive and self-satisfied.

You probably think it's charismatic or something.
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

2013-06-14 Thread Eduard Braun

Actually I know nobody who likes the new distinction between save and 
export.


But the whole discussion seems to be at a point of no return anyway and 
developers seem to defend the change as a matter of principle rather 
than aiming for maximum usability, so it seems quite improbable anything 
will change.

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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

2013-06-14 Thread Steve Kinney

Every time people insist on cluttering the list up with weeping and
wailing and gnashing of teeth over Save vs. Export, it is...

A Sad Case Of Regression

:o/

Steve


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Re: [Gimp-user] Fw: A Sad case of regression.

On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 14:06:38 -0500
"Alex Vergara Gil"  wrote:

>> Sometimes it's better to accept a program's development has gone wrong 
>> and return it to a more acceptable workflow that matches the expectations 
>> of it's users.

> Sometimes it´s better to accept a program´s user has gone wrong and accept 
> the correct workflow that allows more productivity and less mistakes.

What is wrong with offering users the choice, and letting them decide on what 
they prefer, which way they would rather work ?

Thanks $DEITY I have now found Akkana's Save/export clean plug-in, which goes a 
long way towards mitigating the inconvenience imposed on some of the users by 
the developers.
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.

PS: http://shallowsky.com/software/gimp-save/
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.


On 14/06/2013 21:51, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

is the choice for Win/Mac and proprietary software an informed
one?
Yes. You might not like the information they made their choices on, but 
it's not entirely random.

In a world where people still think that GIMP is a strictly
multiwindow application and there's no color management on Linux, are
you, Paul Holman, owner (?) ofwww.colourprofiles.com, prepared to
testify that you personally interviewed each of your clients and each
visitor of those said forums, and as the result of that study you
found out that yes indeed -- all of them are informed about their
options on Linux, more or less follow the progress of GIMP and
darktable, but simply don't find them good enough?

A simple 'yes' or 'no' would suffice.


No. As I said, all I ask is what OS they use to provide installation 
instructions. That tells me what software they actually use, not why or 
how they arrived at that choice it's not relevant to the information I need.

The information is simple and accurate.

That you ask such a preposterous question says all I need to know about 
your approach, but doesn't change the underlying truth that hardly any 
photographers use Linux.

Sorry if you don't like that, but that's the way it is.

Paul Holman
www.colourprofiles.com


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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

On Sat, Jun 15, 2013 at 12:27 AM, Crew wrote:

>>> The vast majority of photographers DON'T use Linux because there's been
>>> >nothing credible for them.
>>
>> It's amazing that there are people who actually believe that.
>
> Why would you believe anything else ?

Because I have a brain and I happen to use it for its primary function
which is thinking.

Consider this statement of yours:

> That sort of proportion is in keeping with what people are using on the big
> photo forums like Luminous Landscape, Fred Miranda, DPReview etc.

Now, the first thing a person of an analytical persuasion would ask
is: is the choice for Win/Mac and proprietary software an informed
one?

In a world where people still think that GIMP is a strictly
multiwindow application and there's no color management on Linux, are
you, Paul Holman, owner (?) of www.colourprofiles.com, prepared to
testify that you personally interviewed each of your clients and each
visitor of those said forums, and as the result of that study you
found out that yes indeed -- all of them are informed about their
options on Linux, more or less follow the progress of GIMP and
darktable, but simply don't find them good enough?

A simple 'yes' or 'no' would suffice.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.


On 14/06/2013 19:47, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

The vast majority of photographers DON'T use Linux because there's been
>nothing credible for them.

It's amazing that there are people who actually believe that.


Why would you believe anything else ? Do you see any support from the 
likes of Canon, Nikon, Sony, Pentax etc ?


You might notice from my signature that I run a printer profiling 
business. Over the last ten years we've built profiles for thousands of 
photographers and design companies. Throughout that time we've kept 
records of OS use to provide usage instructions. In all that time it's 
worked out at roughly a third use Macs, two thirds use Windows and just 
one person used Linux.
That sort of proportion is in keeping with what people are using on the 
big photo forums like Luminous Landscape, Fred Miranda, DPReview etc.
Linux is fine for some applications, but for photography ? it's made no 
significant impact.


It's great that The Gimp has been ported to Windows, but in order for it 
to be taken seriously it has to develop and work in a sensible way.


Paul Holman
www.colourprofiles.com

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[Gimp-user] Creating image from webpage

2013-06-14 Thread Bettina K. Lechner

Hi everyone,

I tried to load an image of a webpage in GIMP by using File > Create >
from Webpage. But it doesn't work.

And it seems I am not alone:
http://gimpchat.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=5920

(same here: no matter which page I try to load I get just a grey lng
"empty" picture)

I am using GIMP 2.8.4 under Win8.

In my Mac-Version the command is not even there.

Are there plans to "repair" this? Or does it work in your versions?


Thanks
Tina




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[Gimp-user] Fw: A Sad case of regression.

2013-06-14 Thread Alex Vergara Gil




You've never heard of Adobe Premiere, Kdenlive, Apple Final Cut, Apple
Logic, Audacity, Cubase, Ardour, Blender? That's OK. Now you have


Using the examples of video editing packages is rather disingenuous as 
they are all project based programs that work on the expectation of 
combining multiple files and outputting in a different format. A very 
different case.



Not so different:
Imagine that you have a jpg image and you want to add a png layer to it then 
in which format the GIMP must "save" the work.yeah xcf. So I really 
think xcf shall be the default "save" option, now when you speak of "save 
as" things became philosophycal in which definition of what save as means is 
primordial. So to avoid all of this the export way is OK.


Care to give any examples of the genre of image editing programs that 
insist on defaulting to working on intermediate formats ?


What became annoying here is that GIMP means GNU IMAGE Manipulation Program, 
not GNU XCF Manipulation Program. So the only annoying thing that remains is 
the name, but I think for historical reasons it shouldn´t be changed. As for 
programs that work on intermediate formats, I think every other program do 
this, even photoshop (remember psd).


Sometimes it's better to accept a program's development has gone wrong 
and return it to a more acceptable workflow that matches the expectations 
of it's users.


Sometimes it´s better to accept a program´s user has gone wrong and accept 
the correct workflow that allows more productivity and less mistakes. I 
speak for myself here, since I was a detractor of this way of save/export 
and now I can live better thank to this kind of workflow.



Paul Holman
www.colourprofiles.com
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:52 PM, Joseph A. Nagy, Jr
 wrote:

> You must not use Audacity, then.

Yeah, well, you know how it is... I actually use Ardour for my audio
stuff. That's basically the reason I quitted the Audacity team a few
years ago after having been part of it for, ugh, 8 years? Something
like that, yes. But hey, I'm open to all new information about the
project's evolution.

So they merged saving and exporting?

> I happen to use it on a regular basis. All
> the project file does is point to all the wav's it creates as it records.
> Delete those wav's you lose your project. The .aup is just an xml file.

No, they didn't after all :)

You comment is rather irrelevant to the dicussion. Let me explain you why.

The controversy is about the fact that GIMP v2.8 doesn't allow to save
stuff back directly into the original PNG/JPEG/TIFF/whatever file and
only saves to XCF which is project data.

In terms of Audacity that would be like complaining that Audacity can
open MP3, but cannot save it back directly. Which is exactly what it
does: it tells you to export your stuff. That its project file is
XML-based is simply not the point.

And trust me, Audacity team used to be sweared at for this design
decision. With F-word, M-word, and an exciting variety of A-words.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

2013-06-14 Thread Joseph A. Nagy, Jr


Meant to send to list the first time, more non-standard behavior.

On 06/14/13 13:43, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:41 PM, Joseph A. Nagy, Jr wrote:


Agreed 100%, also do not know why Audacity is in there. I expect audio to be
saved in Audacity in wav file format (which is what it does)


Which is what it does not. Audacity famously saves only project data
and exports everything else. And yes, that includes WAV.

Alexandre Prokoudine
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You must not use Audacity, then. I happen to use it on a regular basis. 
All the project file does is point to all the wav's it creates as it 
records. Delete those wav's you lose your project. The .aup is just an 
xml file.


Care to try again?

--
Yours in Christ,

Joseph A Nagy Jr
"Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, But he who hates correction
is stupid." -- Proverbs 12:1
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:20 PM, Crew wrote:
> On 14/06/2013 19:06, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:
>>
>> As a Linux user, I don't have tons of image editors to try. But hey,
>> I'm quite ready to believe that most of them are doing it wrong:)
>
>
> Right I see now.
> "I write for Linux I don't need to conform to user requirements, I know
> better"

You are not users, Paul. You are a user. Singular noun, not a plural noun.

Besides, you conveniently ignored the part where I list the kind of
pro users who love the new behaviour. Of course, they don't support
your opinion, so they should be dismissed. Is that what's happening?
You tell me :)

> The vast majority of photographers DON'T use Linux because there's been
> nothing credible for them.

It's amazing that there are people who actually believe that. What's
next? "Great product doesn't need advertizing"?

There are all sorts of reasons the vast majority of anybody doesn't do
something. Picking one single reason and claiming it's _the_ reason is
an insult to intelligence.

> I'd seriously thought that as colour management had finally arrived in The
> Gimp things might be changing, but I guess I was wrong.

Color management arrived to GIMP in v2.4 that was released years and years ago.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:41 PM, Joseph A. Nagy, Jr wrote:

> Agreed 100%, also do not know why Audacity is in there. I expect audio to be
> saved in Audacity in wav file format (which is what it does)

Which is what it does not. Audacity famously saves only project data
and exports everything else. And yes, that includes WAV.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

2013-06-14 Thread Joseph A. Nagy, Jr


On 06/14/13 12:46, Crew wrote:

You've never heard of Adobe Premiere, Kdenlive, Apple Final Cut, Apple
Logic, Audacity, Cubase, Ardour, Blender? That's OK. Now you have


Using the examples of video editing packages is rather disingenuous as
they are all project based programs that work on the expectation of
combining multiple files and outputting in a different format. A very
different case.

Care to give any examples of the genre of image editing programs that
insist on defaulting to working on intermediate formats ?

Sometimes it's better to accept a program's development has gone wrong
and return it to a more acceptable workflow that matches the
expectations of it's users.

Paul Holman
www.colourprofiles.com
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Agreed 100%, also do not know why Audacity is in there. I expect audio 
to be saved in Audacity in wav file format (which is what it does), with 
a project file in some Audacity-specific format (which it does) and then 
when I'm done on the project, to export it to something other than wav 
(which I knew it would be in to start with). Totally different 
expectations then we have had for GIMP for over 10 years now. I'm 
getting used to the change, but I still do not like it one bit and it is 
still an interruption to the normal flow of work (open, edit, save, 
close, done). Now it's Open/import, edit, export, make sure image 
actually saved, close - dismissing any useless dialogue boxes because 
GIMP now works differently then it has for 10 years.


--
Yours in Christ,

Joseph A Nagy Jr
"Whoever loves instruction loves knowledge, But he who hates correction
is stupid." -- Proverbs 12:1
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

As for programs that work on intermediate formats, I think every other 
program do this, even photoshop (remember psd). 


No it doesn't.
Open a tif, change it, hit Ctrl/cmd+S (the standard save command) as it 
just saves it with the changes.

It's what people expect to happen.

Paul Holman
www.colourprofiles.com
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.


On 14/06/2013 19:06, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote:

As a Linux user, I don't have tons of image editors to try. But hey,
I'm quite ready to believe that most of them are doing it wrong:)


Right I see now.
"I write for Linux I don't need to conform to user requirements, I know 
better"


The vast majority of photographers DON'T use Linux because there's been 
nothing credible for them.
I'd seriously thought that as colour management had finally arrived in 
The Gimp things might be changing, but I guess I was wrong.
With attitudes like the above it's going to remain a lost cause for 
years yet.


Paul Holman
www.colourprofiles.com
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:11 PM, Crew wrote:
>> you mean compared to a project based image manipulation program, which
>> works on the expectation of combining/editing multiple images and
>> outputting in different image formats?
>
>
> So you're saying that thinking of The Gimp as an image editing program is
> wrong then, it need to be primarily regarded as a project based compositing
> program ?

That is what we've been saying for the past 7 years.

> Not sure people coming to it fresh will see it that way.

And there are probably better ways to deal with that.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:14 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine
 wrote:

> There reason the team doesn't provide a setting for that is because
> it's a behaviour change. Which is widely regarded by usability
> engineers as a sure pathway to hell.

(That is, the setting for behaviour change :))

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 10:04 PM, Renaud  OLGIATI wrote:

>> > how about offering the user an export / save choice in the Preferences 
>> > dialogues ?
>
>> As already discussed before, the answer is 'no'.
>
> Why not ?
>
> Do I sense here a case of the Microsoft delusion ? ("We are Gimp of Borg, 
> resistance is futile...")

Sorry, but I'm not in a position to explain your senses. There are
professionals that do that kind of job for a wide range of fee, as I'm
told.

There reason the team doesn't provide a setting for that is because
it's a behaviour change. Which is widely regarded by usability
engineers as a sure pathway to hell.

> PS Could anyone kindly point me in the direction of a repository for a Debian 
> amd64 gimp 2.6.12 deb file ?

http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/gimp

Alexandre Prokoudine
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.


you mean compared to a project based image manipulation program, which
works on the expectation of combining/editing multiple images and
outputting in different image formats?


So you're saying that thinking of The Gimp as an image editing program 
is wrong then, it need to be primarily regarded as a project based 
compositing program ?


Not sure people coming to it fresh will see it that way.

Paul Holman
www.colourprofiles.com
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:46 PM, Crew  wrote:

Welcome to Prokoudine' Friday night tour to GIMP, the image editing
application that mends broken hearts.

>> You've never heard of Adobe Premiere, Kdenlive, Apple Final Cut, Apple
>> Logic, Audacity, Cubase, Ardour, Blender? That's OK. Now you have
>
>
> Using the examples of video editing packages is rather disingenuous as they
> are all project based programs

So is GIMP. You probably haven't noticed, but it has layers, layer
groups and masks. This is called compositing which is, essentially,
project based. As the rule. Anywhere.

> that work on the expectation of combining multiple files

So does GIMP. The new image processing core makes it possible to do
stuff like hotlinking external bitmaps and SVG files. That's the
future. And in both past and present GIMP has that thing called "Open
As Layer". You might find it useful, although you are probably used to
just dropping files on the canvas from your file manager of choice.

> and outputting in a different format

So does GIMP. Drop PNG in, export JPEG. Drop SVG in, export TIFF. Just
earlier today at work I had to cut/scale/refine a bunch of JPEGs out
of a PDF file. That's outputting different format, all right.

> Care to give any examples of the genre of image editing programs that insist
> on defaulting to working on intermediate formats ?

As a Linux user, I don't have tons of image editors to try. But hey,
I'm quite ready to believe that most of them are doing it wrong :)

> Sometimes it's better to accept a program's development has gone wrong and
> return it to a more acceptable workflow that matches the expectations of
> it's users.

And you are exactly the person to judge what users expect, aren't you? :)

Let me see.

- Filmmakers tell me the new behaviour works great for them and
matches their expectations.
- 3D artists who produce textures with GIMP tell me the new behaviour
is awesome and even want us to take it further.
- Designers tell me they just love it (admittedly, not all of them).

But what do they know, right? :)

I can see how this is going to become yet another boring thread on a
tired subject. Please don't count me in.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 21:43:17 +0400
Alexandre Prokoudine  wrote:

> > how about offering the user an export / save choice in the Preferences 
> > dialogues ?  

> As already discussed before, the answer is 'no'.

Why not ? 

Do I sense here a case of the Microsoft delusion ? ("We are Gimp of Borg, 
resistance is futile...")
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.

PS Could anyone kindly point me in the direction of a repository for a Debian 
amd64 gimp 2.6.12 deb file ?
All my search result have sent me to a gimp.org page that says "This page is 
obsolete, please see the downloads page. "
-- 
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.

2013-06-14 Thread Simon Budig

Crew (p...@wideshots.co.uk) wrote:
> >You've never heard of Adobe Premiere, Kdenlive, Apple Final Cut, Apple
> >Logic, Audacity, Cubase, Ardour, Blender? That's OK. Now you have
> 
> Using the examples of video editing packages is rather disingenuous
> as they are all project based programs that work on the expectation
> of combining multiple files and outputting in a different format. A
> very different case.

you mean compared to a project based image manipulation program, which
works on the expectation of combining/editing multiple images and
outputting in different image formats?

Very different indeed  :)

Bye,
Simon
-- 
  si...@budig.de  http://simon.budig.de/
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Re: [Gimp-user] A Sad case of regression.


You've never heard of Adobe Premiere, Kdenlive, Apple Final Cut, Apple
Logic, Audacity, Cubase, Ardour, Blender? That's OK. Now you have


Using the examples of video editing packages is rather disingenuous as 
they are all project based programs that work on the expectation of 
combining multiple files and outputting in a different format. A very 
different case.


Care to give any examples of the genre of image editing programs that 
insist on defaulting to working on intermediate formats ?


Sometimes it's better to accept a program's development has gone wrong 
and return it to a more acceptable workflow that matches the 
expectations of it's users.


Paul Holman
www.colourprofiles.com
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 9:21 PM, Renaud  OLGIATI wrote:
> On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 14:28:31 +0200

> Since Linux is all in favour of freedom of choice

It's just a kernel. Software neither feels, nor judges, nor favours.

> how about offering the user an export / save choice in the Preferences 
> dialogues ?

As already discussed before, the answer is 'no'.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 14:28:31 +0200
"Uniklaps"  wrote:

> When you open a jpg-file in GIMP 2.8 and make changes and save this again
> as jpg, you cannot re-change the changes you made (if file is closed). If
> changes are not necessary, GIMP can save as tif or jpg. (But are you always
> sure, that your work is perfect?)
> Saving the jpg you worked with as an GIMP xcf-file you can open it again and
> continue your work or go back to changes you made. With an jpg this is not
> possible. But: You should be familiar to the GIMP - feature "layers" 

Let us put it this way: If I thought I might want to undo/modify changes later, 
I would Save As (or Save As Copy) in .xcf; but when I load a .jpg, work on it, 
and Save, I know that I wont be able to undo changes, and I expect the saved 
file to replace the original one, not to have the original left untouched and 
something completely different saved.

Andrew & Bridget  wrote:

> Just because a program does not perform the way you would like it to, doesn't 
> make it an inferior program. 

No, but it makes it more difficult, and less appealing, to use.

> As it has been said before if you don't like it, use something else, no body 
> makes you use GIMP.

I like GIMP, have liked it for fourteen years; I just dont like GIMP 2.8, 

Alexandre Prokoudine  wrote:

> > - If not, what is the latest release of GIMP that behaved in the old (and 
> > intuitive) way, so I can go back to that version ?

> 2.6.11

I will be now be looking for the 2.6.11 package since you kindly tols me it is 
free from that export/save sillyness.

radar.ma...@free.fr wrote:

> but if Gimp is made easier and safer for most of people, let's trust our 
> contributors.

Since Linux is all in favour of freedom of choice, how about offering the user 
an export / save choice in the Preferences dialogues ?

Cheers,

Ron.
-- 
   Il est dangereux d'avoir raison dans des choses
   où des hommes accrédités ont tort. 
   -- Voltaire

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --

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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 8:03 PM, Crew wrote:

> If the discussion has had thousands of comments in the past it's pretty
> clear it's at least contentious.

There's that old war trick: crawl towards the opposing army in the
dark and make as much noise as possible like there's an army of you.

I'm sorry you had to crawl, but the noise isn't fooling me. A lot of
people are happy with 2.8, the user base is growing. If you are not
one of them, it's a pity, but stuff like that happens everywhere, all
the time, to all sort of projects.

> If this is the sort of advice given out to new users I can see why The Gimp
> is regarded so poorly by imaging professionals.

Oh, there are many reasons imaging professionals regard GIMP poorly.
Would you like to discuss all of them? :)

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 8:26 PM, Andrew & Bridget wrote:
> Just because a program does not perform the way you would like it to,
> doesn't make it an inferior program. GIMP is a very powerful Image Editing
> program that thousands of people use day to day. For every one that states
> in this forum that it is a regression there is probably as many that like
> the new behavior that don't post. As it has been said before if you don't
> like it, use something else, no body makes you use GIMP.

Actually, at this point GIMP branded handcuffs that would have
"export" engraved all over them could generate quite a lot of income
for the project.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Crew wrote:

> I don't know any other program that works in such a non-standard way.

You've never heard of Adobe Premiere, Kdenlive, Apple Final Cut, Apple
Logic, Audacity, Cubase, Ardour, Blender? That's OK. Now you have :)

> There's been some good work done to improve this program in the recent past,
> but if the developers want The Gimp to be taken seriously they need to
> address such silliness as this URGENTLY.

The answer is still no, no matter how many CAPS you use.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

2013-06-14 Thread Andrew & Bridget

Just because a program does not perform the way you would like it to, 
doesn't make it an inferior program. GIMP is a very powerful Image 
Editing program that thousands of people use day to day. For every one 
that states in this forum that it is a regression there is probably as 
many that like the new behavior that don't post. As it has been said 
before if you don't like it, use something else, no body makes you use GIMP.



On 14/06/2013 17:03, Crew wrote:



In case you are not just phishing (which is unlikely, as there are
several such emails posted recently:-)
Given the way Adobe are moving to a subscription model, there are 
going to be a lot of new users like myself seriously looking at The 
Gimp in future.
The recent addition of colour management finally moved The Gimp into 
the realms of being worthy of serious consideration, but trying to 
make it some sort of exclusive package that works with it's own file 
formats is just daft.
If you can drag and drop an image into the program it should by 
default save back to the same format. Everything other program works 
that way, changing that protocol is unintuitive and just daft.


If the discussion has had thousands of comments in the past it's 
pretty clear it's at least contentious.


Do the developers of The Gimp want it to be taken seriously ?, or will 
they be happy just making something non-standard that will make them 
look foolish. As a potential new user that's how it's looking to me.



You're wrong!

The problem is NOT a lack of conventional Save command, rather a lack
of conventional Import command!

The program "opens" non-native files! That should not happen! It
should import them so you are fully aware that you need to export to a
non-native format.


Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP

Sorry, I was mistaking The Gimp for a sensible image editing program.

If this is the sort of advice given out to new users I can see why The 
Gimp is regarded so poorly by imaging professionals.


Paul Holman
www.colourprofiles.com
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?




In case you are not just phishing (which is unlikely, as there are
several such emails posted recently:-)
Given the way Adobe are moving to a subscription model, there are going 
to be a lot of new users like myself seriously looking at The Gimp in 
future.
The recent addition of colour management finally moved The Gimp into the 
realms of being worthy of serious consideration, but trying to make it 
some sort of exclusive package that works with it's own file formats is 
just daft.
If you can drag and drop an image into the program it should by default 
save back to the same format. Everything other program works that way, 
changing that protocol is unintuitive and just daft.


If the discussion has had thousands of comments in the past it's pretty 
clear it's at least contentious.


Do the developers of The Gimp want it to be taken seriously ?, or will 
they be happy just making something non-standard that will make them 
look foolish. As a potential new user that's how it's looking to me.



You're wrong!

The problem is NOT a lack of conventional Save command, rather a lack
of conventional Import command!

The program "opens" non-native files! That should not happen! It
should import them so you are fully aware that you need to export to a
non-native format.


Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP

Sorry, I was mistaking The Gimp for a sensible image editing program.

If this is the sort of advice given out to new users I can see why The 
Gimp is regarded so poorly by imaging professionals.


Paul Holman
www.colourprofiles.com
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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

2013-06-14 Thread Greg Chapman

Hi Crew,

On 14 Jun 13 16:08 Crew  said:
> As a potential new user to The Gimp, I've found the lack of a 
> conventional save command to be TERRIBLE.

You're wrong!

The problem is NOT a lack of conventional Save command, rather a lack 
of conventional Import command!

The program "opens" non-native files! That should not happen! It 
should import them so you are fully aware that you need to export to a
non-native format.

Greg Chapman
http://www.gregtutor.plus.com
Helping new users of KompoZer and The GIMP
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[Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

As a potential new user to The Gimp, I've found the lack of a 
conventional save command to be TERRIBLE.


I'm absolutely astonished that anyone that uses software would think 
this could be a sensible move, it's crazy, I don't know any other 
program that works in such a non-standard way.


There's been some good work done to improve this program in the recent 
past, but if the developers want The Gimp to be taken seriously they 
need to address such silliness as this URGENTLY.


Paul Holman
www.colourprofiles.com


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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

2013-06-14 Thread Richard Gitschlag

Here we go again . . . .

> PS Why do the developpers think we all want to use the .xcf format ?
>

It's not like that. It's a change in design from one model to another.

The change is beneficial when you ARE working on an XCF file (in the exact same
vein as using Photoshop to work on PSD files, e.g. multi-layer digital
compositions). Prior to 2.8 when you "Saved" to something other than an XCF
you were constantly warned about things that had to happen (e.g. flattening
layers) before GIMP could actually output the file. After that, GIMP lost
track of the XCF file, meaning that any subsequent "Save" commands targetted
the most recent (non-XCF ) file and if you didn't manually save back to the XCF
file before quitting, you could potentially lose edits.

The upside is that Exporting to standard image formats is actually faster in
2.8 than Saving to them was in 2.6 .

The downside is that the change is indeed annoying when all you need GMP for is
to open up an image, make a few edits then save back to it, because this does
not make GIMP consider the image "Saved" (to an XCF) and you get an extra "Save
changes?" prompt when closing the image.

(I also personally disagree with the developer's insistence that GIMP should
not give the user an option to switch from the Save dialog to the Export
dialogue or vice versa.)

But enough of that. Search the mailing list archives sometime and you will
find literally thousands of posts on the Save/Export topic (if the search below
is to be believed, in fact over THIRTY THOUSAND):
http://www.google.com/custom?q=save+export&domains=mail.gnome.org&hq=inurl%3A%2Farchives%2F&sitesearch=mail.gnome.org

Try giving it a month or two to mentally adjust to selecting "Export" instead
of "Save" when you need to output a standard image file format. If you still
prefer the old behavior, there are alternatives, such as the "noxcf" fork that
preserves the 2.6-style saving behavior:

https://github.com/mskala/noxcf-gimp#readme

-- Stratadrake
strata_ran...@hotmail.com

Numbers may not lie, but neither do they tell the whole truth.

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Re: [Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?

On Fri, Jun 14, 2013 at 3:31 PM, Renaud  OLGIATI wrote:

> - Can this behaviour be changed in the configuration of GIMP ?

No

> - If not, what is the latest release of GIMP that behaved in the old (and 
> intuitive) way, so I can go back to that version ?

2.6.11

> PS Why do the developpers think we all want to use the .xcf format ?

We don't think so.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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[Gimp-user] A sad case of regression ?