Title: RE: Mailing List Archive
Why don't we make our own archive and ask mail-archive.com to stop doing their thing? Then we have control of what is published and everyone's happy...
-Original Message-
From: alex [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2001 3:22 AM
At Fri, 26 Jan 2001 09:23:17 -, Mike Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Why don't we make our own archive and ask mail-archive.com to stop
doing their thing? Then we have control of what is published and
everyone's happy...
I don't think that mail-archive would be amenable to removing the
This is my two pence worth:
1. I stand by everything I've ever said on the the list. If I didn't
mean it I wouldn't have said it.
2. However, I can see problems with people taking things I've said out of
context. Pah, so be it. This is the problem with the world.
3. If I wanted
Best idea that I came up whilst thinking about it last night was to
configure majordomo to automatically add an 'X-No-Archive' header to
all mails on the list. But even that only avoids archives that play by
the rules.
Seems like a good idea to me. The fact that mailing lists are ultimately
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 12:07:18AM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
* James Powell ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
To make it harder for google to find you - change your name Prince style.
good idea!
- greg of wales
This is the best laugh I've had in a little while. Thanks.
james.
--
On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 08:20:28PM +, Dave Cross wrote:
It seems that mail-archive.com have been archiving our list for some
time and anyone who knows about mail-archive can find anything posted
to our list.
I've got no real problem with having my contributions publically archived,
the
Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
Robin Houston [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
(Sadly I no longer have shell access to any four-processor Sun
machines to confirm this.)
Which reminds me.
How in gods name do Sun get away with charging so much for stuff?
We've erm, "acquired" an enterprise 420.
For the same money I could build
a clutster
of what, 30 linux boxes? Don't tell me programmer time has got that
expensive? Or that thinking about what you're doing stopped
happening?
If it's good enough for Google...
Help me out here!
It is good kit (and alot of it is rebadged stuff
I'd agree with this. We buy large amounts of Sun kit.
Although I don't make these decisions my take on why is:
- Even though you can automate sysadmin tasks, generally more boxes mean
more sysadmin effort. Given our compute requirements we would need very
large numbers of PCs to replace our sun
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 10:35:45AM +, Steve Mynott wrote:
I suspect things like SMP probably still work better. And if I were
on call supporting a server I would probably still trust a Sparc
running Solaris over some dodgy PC desktop with Redhat stuck on it by
a hobbyist who has never
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 10:17:21AM +, Greg Cope wrote:
Dave Hodgkinson wrote:
How in gods name do Sun get away with charging so much for stuff?
It is good kit
But it's also a marketing thing I know tow clients whom purchased
15k of sun kit each, and in either case a good
* Richard Clamp ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 08:20:28PM +, Dave Cross wrote:
It seems that mail-archive.com have been archiving our list for some
time and anyone who knows about mail-archive can find anything posted
to our list.
I've got no real problem with
On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Dominic Mitchell wrote:
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 10:35:45AM +, Steve Mynott wrote:
I suspect things like SMP probably still work better. And if I were
on call supporting a server I would probably still trust a Sparc
running Solaris over some dodgy PC desktop with
Steve Mynott wrote:
Dave Hodgkinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[..]
How in gods name do Sun get away with charging so much for stuff?
Because they can and they have a brand people trust like IBM or
Microsoft. In fact you can buy far cheaper Sun clones from companies
like Transtec
You're right I think it probably would make a good topic to TPC5. Just need
the time to write it. The patch has not yet made it into the main wvWare
distribution although some of mine have. wvWare itself is extremely stable
and I have not found any problems with wvWare. I am currently looking
Michael Stevens wrote:
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 10:35:45AM +, Steve Mynott wrote:
I suspect things like SMP probably still work better. And if I were
on call supporting a server I would probably still trust a Sparc
running Solaris over some dodgy PC desktop with Redhat stuck on it by
On or about Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:07:02AM +, Michael Stevens typed:
I imagine you could get a pc service contract on the same level as
Sun do, but I have no experience in the area. Has anyone got any experience
paying vast amounts of money for PC support? did you get much for your
money?
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:18:06AM +, Greg Cope wrote:
How about a decently built rack mount PC running Debian[1], by
someone who actually knows how to setup that particular OS decently,
as compared with a Sun box running Solaris setup by someone good
with solaris?
(And, myself,
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:19:02AM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
On or about Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:07:02AM +, Michael Stevens typed:
I imagine you could get a pc service contract on the same level as
Sun do, but I have no experience in the area. Has anyone got any experience
paying
On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Michael Stevens wrote:
Can't we compare something vaguely equivalent here instead?
I personally would have just as little faith in Solaris run by someone
who didn't know what they were doing as I would in Redhat run by
someone who didn't know what they were doing.
How
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:30:03AM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
On or about Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:23:26AM +, Michael Stevens typed:
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:19:02AM +, Roger Burton West wrote:
Dell offer this on some of their servers. IMHO this is always a waste of
money -
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:30:28AM +, Struan Donald wrote:
on the other hand kickstart files aren't that tricky to write and you
can then set up the box in a sensible way (or something approaching
that) and it's very easy to set up a chunk of boxes the same.
of course you a box to put
I sugest that we give it to Dave Cross
Richard
-Original Message-
From: Dave Cross [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: 26 January 2001 07:33
To: london.pm
Subject: Fwd: [[EMAIL PROTECTED]: free copy of data munging with perl]
I'd be failing in my duty as group leader if I didn't pass on
Dave Cross wrote:
I'd be failing in my duty as group leader if I didn't pass on this
announcement from the Perl Mongers Group Leaders mailing list :)
Dave...
- Forwarded message from Uri Guttman [EMAIL PROTECTED] -
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2001 15:25:55 -0500
From: Uri Guttman [EMAIL
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:39:17AM +, Struan Donald wrote:
One of these days I must play with the FAI (fully automatic installation)
stuff for debian.
kickstart is (i assume) teh redhat equiv of FAI. or at least it is if
FAI is stick floppy in system, create symlink in some magic format
On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, Nathan Torkington wrote:
Cumberland Hotel (overlooks Hyde Park), October 16-19 (Tue-Fri).
Anyone see problems (clashes with other conferences, plans for riots
that week, the Cumberland is famous for its urine cocktails, etc)?
Sounds fine to me.
/J\
--
Jonathan
At Fri, 26 Jan 2001 10:59:34 -, "Robert Shiels" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I never say anything I wouldn't stand by on any list, but as the
search engines get better, more people than I'd like will have access
to what I say. How many of you who have discussed drug use would like
their
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:50:35AM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
* Richard Clamp ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
That said I would have liked to have been informed of it when subscribing to
the list (or for those of us that have been here for donkeys, when it
started getting archived,) just so
Phew, just missed my 29th Sept post where I detailed my plans for
a perl script to overthrow the government.
jp
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 12:01:21PM +, Jonathan Stowe wrote:
For those that might be interested this was when mail-archive started
archiving london-list.
/J\
--
Jonathan
* Philip Newton ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
this is forwarded from manning and they are offering each pm group a
free copy of data munging with perl by dave cross.
Hey! Now Dave can have his very own free copy of DMWP!
and we can all sign it!
--
Greg McCarroll
Dave Cross wrote:
If the majority are against it then I'll do what I can to
prevent it.
The obvious thing would be to arrange for archive@jab.org (or whatever it
is) to unsubscribe from the list. I believe they don't delete archived
articles, but if they aren't subscribed to the list any more,
At Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:01:21 + (GMT), Jonathan Stowe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
For those that might be interested this was when mail-archive started
archiving london-list.
-- Forwarded message --
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 2000 07:11:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To:
Dave Cross wrote:
At Fri, 26 Jan 2001 09:23:17 -, Mike Davis
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Why don't we make our own archive and ask mail-archive.com to stop
doing their thing? Then we have control of what is published and
everyone's happy...
I don't think that mail-archive would
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 06:50:59AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
This is all a fine plan, but it doesn't prevent external people from
achiving us in the same way that mail-archive do. I really don't think
there's a foolproof way to prevent it.
I doubt that's a serious problem.
I assume that
On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
* Richard Clamp ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
On Thu, Jan 25, 2001 at 08:20:28PM +, Dave Cross wrote:
It seems that mail-archive.com have been archiving our list for some
time and anyone who knows about mail-archive can find anything posted
Agreed entirely. I was thinking purely of hardware support; software
support IME is always and everywhere a complete waste of time
and money.
I have encountered good software support with applications that:
a) Cost over 20 grand
and/or
b) Are not widely used
I think there are lots of
I suppose at this point I should point out that it was I that subscribed
mail-archive.com's bot to the list. Not sure when, but looking at the
archive, it seems to be roughly end of September 2000. (See
http://www.mail-archive.com/london-list%40happyfunball.pm.org/mail5.html .)
Since I confirmed
Robin Houston wrote:
I assume that someone deliberately added mail-archive's bot to the
list, because mail-archive certainly don't hunt down lists themselves.
Yes. See my other post.
If we have an explicit "no public archives" policy then presumably
people will have the decency to honour
On or about Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 12:08:22PM -, Jonathan Peterson typed:
And then people wonder why I like open source...
Even within OS software there's good support and bad support. There's plenty
of OS software that _doesn't_ have helpful user groups, and has very poor
documentation and
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 07:02:48AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
I wonder what mail-archive would do if we just unsubbed their bot?
Nothing, presumably.
I don't think that mail-archive subbed their bot to the list -
I think someone from here must have done it. They seem like a
decent bunch, and
On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Richard Clamp wrote:
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:50:35AM +, Greg McCarroll wrote:
* Richard Clamp ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
That said I would have liked to have been informed of it when subscribing to
the list (or for those of us that have been here for donkeys,
This is really sysadminy stuff and probably off topic but here I go:-
Michael Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Isn't kickstart a solaris thing, or have redhat developed new stuff
I didn't know about?
Kickstart is RedHat
http://wwwcache.ja.net/dev/kickstart/KickStart-HOWTO.html
Jumpstart
Philip Newton wrote:
AFAIK they just take incoming posts and if they look like
they come from a list, they're stuff in that list's archive
(which is created if necessary).
And you can even create your own archive, as long as mail sent to it looks
sort of like list mail. See
On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Robin Houston wrote:
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 06:50:59AM -0500, Dave Cross wrote:
This is all a fine plan, but it doesn't prevent external people from
achiving us in the same way that mail-archive do. I really don't think
there's a foolproof way to prevent it.
I
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 12:16:52PM +, Steve Mynott wrote:
There's very little off-topic on this list :)
Kickstart is RedHat
http://wwwcache.ja.net/dev/kickstart/KickStart-HOWTO.html
Jumpstart is Solaris
Both are automated install procedures.
Yes. I have learnt.
If it is just
* Jonathan Stowe ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
If no-one objects I will put this in place this weekend. I guess it will
result in ~ 10 excess messages a week.
with current volumen, this is a drop in the pond
--
Greg McCarroll http://www.mccarroll.uklinux.net
Jonathan Stowe wrote:
I must admit that I could have spotted this if I had known what I was
looking for - I dont tend to pay much attention to the
subscribe messages.
You did spot it. I remember you mailed me about it saying you weren't too
keen on the idea but approved the subscription
On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Philip Newton wrote:
I suppose at this point I should point out that it was I that subscribed
mail-archive.com's bot to the list. Not sure when, but looking at the
archive, it seems to be roughly end of September 2000. (See
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
[1] My main gripe with *BSD is lack of binary package management
Um, then what's this?
pkg_add ftp://ftp.plig.org/pub/OpenBSD/2.8/packages/i386/dia-0.86p1.tgz
That installed a precompiled binary of dia for me. Or do you
James Powell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Phew, just missed my 29th Sept post where I detailed my plans for
a perl script to overthrow the government.
I actually think this would be possible if you ported either
http://anoncvs.aldigital.co.uk/lucre/
or
On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Philip Newton wrote:
Jonathan Stowe wrote:
I must admit that I could have spotted this if I had known what I was
looking for - I dont tend to pay much attention to the
subscribe messages.
You did spot it. I remember you mailed me about it saying you weren't too
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 12:16:46PM +, Jonathan Stowe wrote:
On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Greg McCarroll wrote:
how about if we notified the list everytime someone subscribed or
unsubscribed
This can be done ver', ver' easily - It would also have the positive
benefit of breaking the ice
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 12:27:02PM +, David Cantrell wrote:
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 12:00:24PM +, Richard Clamp wrote:
Personally I like to be able to get mbox archives in preference to web
archives, but then I like my mail client much more than my web broswer.
Same here. I'm
Rob Partington [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
That installed a precompiled binary of dia for me. Or do you mean that,
say, pkg_* don't have the same functionality as RPM?
It has the same (or similar functionality) but its database isn't
complete because it doesn't include _every_ system file.
--
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On RedHat I can do something like 'rpm -e sendmail' to clean up before
installing qmail and, alas, I can't do this on OpenBSD (although there
has been talk of extending the binary packages to include the base
OS).
If you
Rob Partington [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On RedHat I can do something like 'rpm -e sendmail' to clean up before
installing qmail and, alas, I can't do this on OpenBSD (although there
has been talk of extending the
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 01:59:09PM +, Steve Mynott wrote:
Rob Partington [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Steve Mynott [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On RedHat I can do something like 'rpm -e sendmail' to clean up before
installing qmail and, alas, I can't do this
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 12:08:22PM -, Jonathan Peterson wrote:
I've encountered good support for Veritas' Netbackup package, but again we
were paying about 6k / annum for the support contract.
Lucky you! I spit on the earth that NetBackup walks on! It's one of
the worst packages I've
At Fri, 26 Jan 2001 12:44:31 +, Richard Clamp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Got a complete archive of this list? I don't but would like.
Not complete, but I think I subscribed pretty early. The earliest
post I have is: fx sound="rummage"/
From: "Cross, David" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To:
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 03:37:38PM +, Jonathan Stowe wrote:
I still have the original mail that Dave sent out somewhere ...
Show off!
--
David Cantrell | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david/
Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced
Dave Cross wibbled:
The other week I dug out the original comp.lang.perl.misc post.
I think I have a recording of someone bashing a stick near a big black
rectangle somewhere too...
Is this a collective attempt to crash mail archiving bots by posting so
much that they get overloaded and fall
* Mark Fowler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
Dave Cross wibbled:
The other week I dug out the original comp.lang.perl.misc post.
I think I have a recording of someone bashing a stick near a big black
rectangle somewhere too...
Is this a collective attempt to crash mail archiving bots by
Redvers Davies wrote:
Would this still hold for a RedDrat system with all the X stuff and
other unncessary stuff removed ?
Nah, ou want slackware A, N and D... No more. 10 meg for your base
OS, compile what you need.
Stop IT ... I am not using slackware !
Greg
Don't listen to this man. His job title may include the
word "manager"
but he never has or never will be a "manager" in this context. He's
far too intelligent for a start :-)=
Too kind. I usually have to blow my own trumpet. It's always nice to have
someone else blow it for
Under FreeBSD, you've got sendmail-wrapper instead, which you can
configure to point to any installed file.
Linux has that too - its called a symbolic link:
tonkatsu:~# ls -al /usr/lib/sendmail /usr/sbin/sendmail
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 18 Dec 9 1998 /usr/lib/sendmail -
Stop IT ... I am not using slackware !
Ans why not?? For a server it is perfect. Very small, very compact.
Perfect for a secure environment.
On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Matthews Simon wrote:
Don't listen to this man. His job title may include the
word "manager"
but he never has or never will be a "manager" in this context. He's
far too intelligent for a start :-)=
Too kind. I usually have to blow my own trumpet.
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 05:19:08PM +, Redvers Davies wrote:
Stop IT ... I am not using slackware !
Ans why not?? For a server it is perfect. Very small, very compact.
Perfect for a secure environment.
Is that why slackware.com got broken into a few weeks ago then? :-)
-Dom
Is that why slackware.com got broken into a few weeks ago then? :-)
I'm not going to rise to that at all as you know full well that the
security of a product has more to do with its installation, configuration
and maintainence than the code. Regardless of supplier, if the admin does
not lock
Roger Burton West [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
*On or about Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 12:08:22PM -, Jonathan Peterson typed:
*
* And then people wonder why I like open source...
*Even within OS software there's good support and bad support. There's plenty
*of OS software that _doesn't_ have helpful
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:40:13AM -0600, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
*Oh, agreed entirely. The key thing is that nobody _expects_ a professional
*support service, so they're less disappointed when it doesn't happen.
I don't think this is true for the great majority of software end-users
out
Michael Stevens [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
*
*I personally would have just as little faith in Solaris run by someone
*who didn't know what they were doing as I would in Redhat run by
*someone who didn't know what they were doing.
I would have more faith in Solaris. On an acadmeic network, no
Michael Stevens [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
*
*Can anyone point to actual studies of the "we took some end users, and
*found they wanted FOO amounts of documentation". And, for completeness,
*"we took some end users, looked at what they were actually using, and
*then looked at how much
Michael Stevens [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
*
*Isn't kickstart a solaris thing, or have redhat developed new stuff
*I didn't know about?
Jumpstart.
e.
Redvers Davies wrote:
Stop IT ... I am not using slackware !
Ans why not?? For a server it is perfect. Very small, very compact.
Perfect for a secure environment.
Only joking - I'm used to redhat - I might move to Debian who knows
?
I am quite happy with redhat / debian as I know
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:50:00AM -0600, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
Michael Stevens [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
*I personally would have just as little faith in Solaris run by someone
*who didn't know what they were doing as I would in Redhat run by
*someone who didn't know what they were
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:59:08AM -0600, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
Michael Stevens [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
*Isn't kickstart a solaris thing, or have redhat developed new stuff
*I didn't know about?
Jumpstart.
yes, I found that out, my memory sucks.
Dominic Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Yes, don't forget that symbolic links originated in BSD, thank you. :-)
Don't forget that pretty much everything of any use in Unix came out
of Berkely! I spit on your system V IPC, I want my select()...
--
Dave Hodgkinson,
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 06:04:07PM +, Michael Stevens wrote:
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:50:00AM -0600, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
Michael Stevens [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
I take that post back. I don't think it would be productive to
continue the discussion.
Michael
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 11:50:00AM -0600, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
I would have more faith in Solaris. On an acadmeic network, no firewalls,
we had user workstations that pretty much lived on their own and at the
mercy of their users. One day, one of the AI profs installed RedHat after
David Cantrell [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
*
*And yet this is not Linux's fault. It is the fault of:
* the person who set it up wrongly in the first place
* the network people for making their network so vulnerable to this
*sort of predictable stupidity
OpenBSD hasn't had a exploitable
* Mark Fowler ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
I sez:
Is this a collective attempt to crash mail archiving bots by posting so
much that they get overloaded and fall over? ;-)
Then grep sez:
they wouldn't fall over if ..
they were written using java on a windows
On Fri, 26 Jan 2001, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote:
I have a farm of suns, if you want to make a benchmark, I'll be very
interested to run and compare the results.
I have three E250s running Informix in my hareem, the only time those
suckers have broken is when someone broke the database
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 10:42:16AM +, Dominic Mitchell wrote:
Multi processor Solaris runs rings around any of the free Unixes.
They've had kernel threads for nearly 10 years, and it's very optimized.
Hmm, last time I checked Solaris threads were a nightmare...
I suspect that SGIs IRIX
On Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:33:54PM +, Dominic Mitchell wrote:
Under FreeBSD, you've got sendmail-wrapper instead, which you can
configure to point to any installed file.
Debian has generalised this in /etc/alternatives,
$ ls -l /etc/alternatives/ | head -6
total 1
-rw-r--r--1 root
On Sun, Jan 21, 2001 at 12:08:04PM +, David Cantrell wrote:
Good point. Sometimes it's hard to remember that there is life outside
the M25. Errm ... if you *really* want to have it in the UK, consider
manchester and birmingham. Both have international airports, large hotels
and
At 23:11 26/01/01, you wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jan 2001, Dave Cross wrote:
How do people feel about going back to State51? Does someone want to
contact the ICA?
Hmm. No one seems to have replied to this[1].
[1] ?
I have replied to this, off list, because the preferences I expressed were
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