Hi John and All,
Logos, logic. These two words are close. Is this accidental or
metaphysical? I opt for DQ/SQ metaphysics. How can I experience the
indefinable? DQ/SQ metaphysics provides the answer through a logic of
indefinable/definable reality. Definition is through DQ/SQ logos in two
Joe,
You think DQ dwells in logos?
imo it dwells in mythos, as Pirsig said:
'The ancient Greeks,' I say, who were the inventors of classical
reason, knew better than to use it exclusively to foretell the future. They
listened to the wind and predicted the future from that. That sounds insane
Joe,
On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote:
Hi John and All,
Imho metaphysics is a structure for knowledge. Definition is required for
the consideration of structure, true or false!
False. If there is some structure, the consideration of it IS the
Hi John and All,
Logos and logic. Imho DQ dwells in all realities. Indefinable occurs in
all reality DQ/SQ. Freedom is sacred.
Joe
On 1/17/14 11:27 AM, John Carl ridgecoy...@gmail.com wrote:
The best you could say is DQ is undefined,
not indefinable.
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo,
Hi Joe,
On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 11:57 AM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote:
Hi Ian and All,
In DQ/SQ metaphysics words express reality through logic, logos-logic.
J: I'm not exactly sure what you mean by DQ/SQ metaphysics (so many
people have different ideas) but in plain old
Hi John and All,
Imho metaphysics is a structure for knowledge. Definition is required for
the consideration of structure, true or false!
Pirsig proposes a structured DQ/SQ metaphysics. DQ is indefinable. In what
form is DQ perceived? A structured experience of individuality 1 becomes
the
Hi Ian,
In a DQ/SQ metaphysics which eyes are rolling?
On 1/9/14 12:04 PM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.com wrote:
So Andre advises Joe to read ZMM Lila, and Joe tells me Pirsig's
metaphysics is defined by words defined by logic.
Roll-eyes
Ian
On 9 Jan 2014 19:57, Joseph
Hi Dan and All,
What is the argument for the description of reality, DQ/SQ? The
metaphysical discussion of reality? Can metaphysical reality be
communicated in a statement of indefinable reality? If so how is it
accepted as reality? In the statement of DQ/SQ when DQ is indefinable?
Hi Dan and All,
Fault! I do not know that indefinable DQ is a fault. Aristotle wrote
metaphysics S/O. Pirsig chose DQ/SQ reality, requiring a greater
exploration in the definition for reality, in the definitive descriptive
DQ/SQ approach to reality
What vocabulary can be created for truth in
Fair enough John, but that was mainly about the Tim / Spam situation - yes?
My roll-eyes was specific to the Andre / Joe exchange - and
incidentally was the most polite response I could be bothered to think
of.
The limits of whacky / playful / neurotic tolerance are simply
pragmatic - you can
Hi Dan,
We agree enough is enough.
If I may focus on your final para:
The real question seems to be: is this discussion group a culture of its
own? And if so, are we presuming these beliefs correspond to some sort of
external (objective) reality? So far as I know, the MOQ subsumes objective
To which I should add two points Dan,
(1) Which is precisely where you were in your recent exchange with
Marsha, before you both flipped your playful tolerance bits.
(2) And why I say as carefully (caringly) as I can to DMB (the
champion / paragon of aiming to get MoQ on a serious academic
[Ian]
The real question seems to be: is this discussion group a culture of its own?
[Arlo]
Cultures (in this sense) are the normative, shared expectations that provide
cohesion and structure, while allowing growth (chaos is not fertile soil).
Like all activity systems, this (and all)
Ian said to Dan:
...And why I say as carefully (caringly) as I can to DMB (the champion /
paragon of aiming to get MoQ on a serious academic footing)- Careful Dave,
you're killing the MoQ in the process.
dmb says:
I'm killing the MOQ? How so?
I'd be totally amazed if you had an intelligible
Ian,
On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 1:28 AM, Ian Glendinning
ian.glendinn...@gmail.comwrote:
Fair enough John, but that was mainly about the Tim / Spam situation - yes?
Yes.
My roll-eyes was specific to the Andre / Joe exchange - and
incidentally was the most polite response I could be
Ian had said:
The limits of whacky / playful / neurotic tolerance are simply
pragmatic - you can only care so much, eventually someone has to wash
some pots.
Ron observes:
Appearently you don't like your
Pots TOo clean.. Eh?
Sent from my iPhone
On Jan 10, 2014, at 4:28 AM, Ian Glendinning
Dan,
I did think about my diatribe in terms of Joe also because like TIm, I
can't understand him.
But Joe at least keeps it short. whereas Tim spews more nonsense the more
he's threatened which exhibits
blatant hostility. I don't get that from Joe.
On Thu, Jan 9, 2014 at 8:57 PM, Dan Glover
John,
On Fri, Jan 10, 2014 at 2:41 PM, John Carl ridgecoy...@gmail.com wrote:
Dan,
I did think about my diatribe in terms of Joe also because like TIm, I
can't understand him.
But Joe at least keeps it short. whereas Tim spews more nonsense the more
he's threatened which exhibits
blatant
And your point Joe ?
Ian
On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 8:40 PM, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote:
Hi Ian,
Metaphysics, physics. Why two words? There is a point to logic.
Joe
On 1/7/14 1:31 PM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.com wrote:
When are we going to lose these pointless
Joe to Andre and All:
I have to pay the consequences of the choice. Free will makes manifest
metaphysical restraints for manifestation in the DQ/SQ structure. Pardon
me I am mistaken!
Andre:
I'm sure you are pardoned Joe. Perhaps you could start by reading the
book named after the subject of
Hi Ian and All,
In DQ/SQ metaphysics words express reality through logic, logos-logic. DQ
is indefinable, maintaining meaning through structure, metaphysics, words.
How can a meaning of words be indefinable? One size does not fit all! Keep
looking DQ/SQ until you feel satisfied! Individuality
So Andre advises Joe to read ZMM Lila, and Joe tells me Pirsig's
metaphysics is defined by words defined by logic.
Roll-eyes
Ian
On 9 Jan 2014 19:57, Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net wrote:
Hi Ian and All,
In DQ/SQ metaphysics words express reality through logic, logos-logic. DQ
is
Ian,
You recently complained about the amount of garbage in your inbox when you
subscribed to lilasquad. So I thought I'd cross-post my response over
there, to you here and now. I won't make it a habit, but it seemed
relevant to the very thing causing your eye-rolling below.
On Thu, Jan 9,
Hello John, Ian, Andre, and all,
Each culture presumes its beliefs correspond to some sort of external
reality, but a geography of religious beliefs shows that this external
reality can be just about any damn thing. Even the *facts *that people
observe to confirm the truth are dependent on the
7 jan 2014 kl. 21:05 skrev Joseph Maurer jh...@comcast.net:
Hi Andre and All,
DQ/SQ, indefinable/definable! A structure which supports indefinable
reality must include aspects of reality which are indefinable like free-will
which remains outside of definition through freedom. If I
Hi Joe
I think your confusion starts with indefinable as indefinable, too, is a
definition or as we say, a static pattern.
Your pattern DQ/SQ, is more interesting as it can be used as a model, an
intellectual pattern, that describes the motivational force following DQ.
As an example: If the
Hi John,
Yes. Or to bastardise a Pirsig phrase:
Do we need anyone to define these things for us ?
Ian
On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 5:42 AM, John Carl ridgecoy...@gmail.com wrote:
I had a thought the other day Ian about this subject. Help me to see if it
fits.
Terms like intellect and free will
Hi Jan-Anders,
I do not see how the conscious perception of indefinable is definition. DQ
remains indefinable though knowable in the experience of an individual.
Individuality is DQ consciousness, before definition. SQ is definition.
Joe
On 1/8/14 1:28 AM, Jan-Anders Andersson
Hi Ian,
Metaphysics, physics. Why two words? There is a point to logic.
Joe
On 1/7/14 1:31 PM, Ian Glendinning ian.glendinn...@gmail.com wrote:
When are we going to lose these pointless degenerate myths like free will
is undefinable ffs?
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing
Joe to Andre:
DQ experience itself is indefinable metaphysics.
Andre:
Huh?
Joe:
Consciousness of individuality coupled with life anchors a possibility
for describing an experience of indefinable reality. Metaphysics MOQ
accepts a reality of DQ/SQ experience in individuality. Sentient
Hi Andre and All,
DQ/SQ, indefinable/definable! A structure which supports indefinable
reality must include aspects of reality which are indefinable like free-will
which remains outside of definition through freedom. If I can't make a
mistake in what I choose I am not held responsible for my
When are we going to lose these pointless degenerate myths like free will
is undefinable ffs?
Free will is as well (un)defined as any other object in this real MoQish
world.
Still, I guess it helps to maintain the mysterious myth if your objective
is to justify interminable gain-saying argument
I had a thought the other day Ian about this subject. Help me to see if it
fits.
Terms like intellect and free will are tricky to define because they are
experiences, not definitions.
You experience intellect when you think in certain ways. Trying to pin
that down exactly is a pain in the
Hi Andre and All,
My understanding of the reality of experience proposed by Persig contains an
experience of DQ (indefinable), SQ (definable) reality.
My experience of an indefinable lies in consciousness (self awareness). New
experience makes it possible to describe something previously
I would postulate, that the non-physical difference between man and woman is a
difference in value, to meet their different needs. This subtle variation in
value has trickled down, to larger personal and social differences.
This difference in value, logically, would be derived from the physical
Try this:
Persons are supervenient on their biological and physical bodies -
human, male, female, whatever.
The personality is the sum of historical evolutionary development
of the species, the sex, and the individual. Something like 10%
genetic (species and sex), 40% individual, biological (inc
Hi Richard,
I don't understand the meaning of gross generalization as applied to DQ/SQ
terms? DQ/SQ requires precision in removing the clutter around SQ in
metaphysical reality.
DQ is accepted as indefinable in the common logical perception of
metaphysics dq/sq MOQ.
Physics and Metaphysics!
Joe to Andre:
I do not doubt that there is a physical differentiation between men and
women. Both are sentient beings. What about angels?.
Andre:
Forget about angels Joe.
Joe:
What is the criteria for the differentiated aesthetic continuum? Language?
Andre:
The MoQ is the criteria Joe. The
Joe:
IMHO Man/Woman experience indefinable reality in differing perspectives.
Andre:
Not sure about this Joesince Northrop 'defines' reality as the
'undifferentiated aesthetic continuum' I doubt if there is a
differentiation in experience/perspective. Not even sure if one can
speak of 'man'
Hi Andre and All,
I do not doubt that there is a physical differentiation between men and
women. Both are sentient beings. What about angels?.
What is the criteria for the differentiated aesthetic continuum? Language?
Does undifferentiated aesthetic continuum contain the experience of
reality
Ron,
You're a talented artist. Have you found a way to keep 'making art' in your
life?
Marsha
On Dec 31, 2013, at 6:09 PM, Ron Kulp xa...@rocketmail.com wrote:
Hokey pokey code of art:
Left foot in
Left foot out
Left foot in
Shake it all about
Or
The dirty Sanchez code
By realizing life is making art
I make art in every moment.
If by art you mean the discipline
Of drawing and painting, I have
Taken on the role of mentor
Often when art is perceived
As a craft only pertaining to
Specific disciplines or limited
To certain criteria it tends to
Alienate other
Hi Dan and All,
One size individuality does not fit all. IMHO Man/Woman experience
indefinable reality in differing perspectives. One divided by one becomes
one divided, open to new possibilities like babies.
Joe
On 12/31/13 2:36 PM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote:
You're right...
Dan said to Marsha:
Sorry but this makes no sense at all. Obviously having a discussion here
is a waste of time. Goodbye.
Marsha replied:
Goodbye Dan.
Andre:
Congratulations Marsha. You've done it again. Pissing posters off with your
derisory and contemptible attitude towards what is
Hi Andre
I've always given Marsha the benefit of the doubt, not because she's a
woman but because I thought she might have something of value to add to the
discussion.
I was wrong.
You're right... discussing anything with her is a waste of time. Rather
than offering anything solid pertaining
Hokey pokey code of art:
Left foot in
Left foot out
Left foot in
Shake it all about
Or
The dirty Sanchez code of art:
In
Out
Swish left
Swish right
?
So few appreciate art
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 29, 2013, at 4:08 PM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote:
wabi-sabi code of art:
a
Bumper sticker sometimes seen:
What if the hokey pokey
Really is what it's all about?
MRB
On 12/31/2013 5:09 PM, Ron Kulp wrote:
Hokey pokey code of art:
Left foot in
Left foot out
Left foot in
Shake it all about
Or
The dirty Sanchez code of art:
In
Out
Swish left
Swish right
?
So few
Hi Dan and All,
Imho DQ/SQ metaphysics, DQ is indefinable like emotional experience. I
experience Love though I cannot define it conceptually, only emotionally.
Joe
On 12/28/13 4:58 PM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote:
Definition, meaning, ideas... they all seem to correlate to
wabi-sabi code of art:
a giant firefly,
that way, this way, that way, this ---
and it passes by.
Moq_Discuss mailing list
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http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
Hi Dan,
On Dec 27, 2013, at 11:54 PM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote:
According to the MOQ, we're submerged in culture.
Yes.
Intellectual patterns, or meaning, arises from social values, or context.
Are you equating 'meaning' and intellectual patterns?
If we used binary
01011001 0110 01110101 00101100 0010 0111 01110010 01100101
0010 0111 01101110 0010 01101001 01100100 01101001 0110
01110100 00101110
Sent from my iPhone
On Dec 28, 2013, at 4:31 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote:
Hi Dan,
On Dec 27, 2013, at 11:54 PM, Dan
On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 3:31 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote:
Hi Dan,
On Dec 27, 2013, at 11:54 PM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote:
According to the MOQ, we're submerged in culture.
Yes.
Intellectual patterns, or meaning, arises from social values, or context.
Are you
Goodbye Dan.
On Dec 28, 2013, at 7:58 PM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Dec 28, 2013 at 3:31 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote:
Hi Dan,
On Dec 27, 2013, at 11:54 PM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote:
According to the MOQ, we're submerged in culture.
She seems like an interesting woman who led a full life though her writing
style is not quite my cup of tea. Doing a bit of research I see William
James was one of her teachers and mentors. He encouraged her writings
though apparently they were never quite on the same page, so to speak.
Thank you
Hi Dan,
01010110 01100101 01110010 0001 0010 01100100 01101001 01110011
0111 0111 0111 0110 01101001 01101110 01110100 01100101
01100100 0010 01110100 01101000 0111 01110100 0010 0001
0110 01110101 0010 0111 01110010 01100101 0010
According to the MOQ, we're submerged in culture. Intellectual patterns, or
meaning, arises from social values, or context. If we used binary code in a
cultural setting then the above represents writing. To me, it doesn't. It's
just a bunch of 1s and 0s.
Taking a book and making a work of art
Greetings,
Sound sight and sense around sound by sight with sense around by with sound
sight sense will apologise truthfully. Com to allowing.
As often as not as often as not they as often as not were to be going away.
A plan that is made and causes it to be that if they were
Hi MarshaV and All,
IMHO the proper way to spell compelling is DQ/SQ. There is always
something missing in a defined statement, indefinable DQ.
Joe
On 12/26/13 6:20 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote:
Are we human beings so captivated by writing that we will be compelled to try
to discover a
Hi Dan and All,
IMHO Chapter breaks are whimsical and outside the definition DQ/SQ.
Defining the indefinable in DQ/SQ metaphysics uses consciousness as the
arbiter of indefinable reality, DQ. DQ remains outside definition in a
reality of direct experience.
Joe
On 12/22/13 3:48 PM, Dan
Doesn't Phaedrus tell Chris the same thing late in ZMM?
`Were you really insane?''
Why should he ask that?
No!
Astonishment hits. But Chris's eyes sparkle.
`Ì knew it,'' he says. [ZMM]
Lila's Child came about on account of my love for writing. Robert Pirsig
inspired me years ago when I read ZMM
Yes, but it feels different to have the character from inside the novel speak
the words and the author making a statement about the work in relation to his
own experience as one aspect of that split personality. But not to worry, I
understand it is all story.
Yes, from a grownup Dan's
I just re-read the intro to the 25th edition and from what I gather, Robert
Pirsig the author is using Phaedrus to say he (the narrator?) was never
insane. We can see that in ZMM from the quote I offered where the dialogue
between Chris and 'Phaedrus' only has quotes around the words of Chris. He
Yes, it is interesting. Very! Sensitive, introverted,
philosophically-minded intellectuals may be more aware of the conflict between
intellectual and social values, and it can initially be quite a shock. But
eventually that shock may subside and ... mountains are once more mountains
and
Not only does she draw outside the lines, my sister writes too. It's sort
of funny that not only are we both artists, but we're both the black sheep
of the family... never living up to our purported potential in the eyes of
our parents or siblings. She moved off ages ago when she was just a
Hello Adrie!
Good to hear from you too!
Yes I know the Irises painting that you speak of. The painting I saw was a
much smaller portrait of a single iris. Van Gogh painted many irises both
in groups and by themselves, from what I understand.
The town we visited was outside of Sacramento, if I
Hi Dan,
From my very limited experience, I'd say that the pre-static (before fear and
thinking) response is always to give 150%, but that is not very advantageous
for the survival of the self in dangerous situations. I did later notice
that from the intensity of the incident, all the thoughts
This is a good example of what the MOQ calls the Code of Art. If memory
serves, I wrote this story after a day of fishing with my oldest son in a
creek that ran past a town where we used to live. I don't use a hook on my
line lest I accidentally catch a fish but I did enjoy our time together
Hi , Dan, long time no see.
Irises was created during confinement in the asylum, in the yard,..but it
was never a single flower, the work is full of irises and their leaves
the confusion is created by Vincent himself because he highlights one
single iris in ...white!, only one among the dark
Hi Dan,
While inspiring a collage of different experiences, I find 'Butterfly Picnic'
to be a little a gem. I really like it. *That the woman was watching, but not
seeing*. Such a familiar mystery! Your explanation is also interesting from
several different angles. - Drawing outside the
And for LILA there will be created 'The Lila Journal'.
On Dec 19, 2013, at 4:14 AM, MarshaV val...@att.net wrote:
Greetings,
Just ordered a used library copy of zAmm to use the pages for creating art
journal. Being a bibliophile it is always painful to destroy a book, and I
And to celebrate 10 years at the MD, 'MD: Metaphysician Heal Thyself'. The
theme might be how character building it has been to hangout cybernetically
with a bunch of intellectually- minded, zen men. I can use RMP quotes and bits
pieces of MD dialogue. Indeed, some of the dialogue has
Tear those books up, Marsha. Make 'em sad they were ever printed.
Me, I ordered three dozen copies of my various books and gave them out to
the owners, managers, salesmen, service writers, secretaries, mechanics,
and porters at the auto dealership where I sorta make a show of working
every now
He he.
It's days like this I'm glad I'm still subscribed to MD.
Thanks Marsha Dan.
Ian
On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 10:14 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote:
Tear those books up, Marsha. Make 'em sad they were ever printed.
Me, I ordered three dozen copies of my various books and gave them
Hi Dan Ian and all,
I can identify. Have you any idea how many paintings I've dropped off at
Goodwill hoping they'd find someone to appreciate them. Clean slate, emptying
teacup, or just plain making room for more. Cannot really complain, though, I
love every moment in my studio. So
Hi Dan and All,
Are DQ/SQ hoboes? They are not mainstream yet. For myself I had no
interest in mainstream until I went to New York to help on the Catholic
Worker paper put out by Dorothy Day. I left New York to go south for voter
registration. A new metaphysics and I still have no solid
Hey Ian,
Good to hear from you, and thanks!
On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 4:21 AM, Ian Glendinning
ian.glendinn...@gmail.comwrote:
He he.
It's days like this I'm glad I'm still subscribed to MD.
Thanks Marsha Dan.
Ian
On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 10:14 AM, Dan Glover daneglo...@gmail.com wrote:
I don't know if my giving away a few books has anything to do with emptying
my teacup but perhaps. I got the idea from World Book Day where they enlist
others in an attempt to give away a million books. I thought, why not give
away a few of my own instead of those of other authors?
I never much
An amazing favorite from 2007:
A Butterfly Picnic
Clumps of small white butterflies with black eyeballs on their wings dance in
spiraling circles along the creek. A woman is watching the butterflies play but
she isn't seeing them. She sits on a green and white plaid blanket. Along side
her
Speaking of Goodwill, off she went to find a copy of a dictionary to enable
collaging those important definitions like static, dynamic, value and troll.
She could hardly wait for the joy of ripping and gluing those thin, paper
pieces onto her journal page. Laying the book onto the work
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